If you're playing Lysander-Wing with non IF colors, but had all your stuff clearly WYSIWYG (this is an assault cannon, this is a power fist), especially taking the care to have squad markings and a clear list, and someone complained they deserve to get beat down with the BGB.

I've had some bad experiences at the local GW store going in to play a Chaos list that had some old 2nd ed models that were unpainted, and charging them assuming they were normal marines, only to find out they were plague marines and they had a banner of Nurgle, and that my Cyborks were all dying in his shooting phase.

I think the general idea is "Don't be a douche".

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Polonius — GMT

carmachu — GMT

Looks like GW doesnt have a problem with it. According to Jeff Hall:

beef — GMT

Sometimes people tend to proxy stuff for over a year and you think get a job and get some real models But hey its there hobby, If anybody is really annoyed about it dont play them. I have kids at my local store who play with marines in all colours, they have no semblance of unity with arms falling of so you dont even know what weapons they have and you know the kids cheat with stuff like "oh he has a powerfist" but Its supposed to be FUN and I have fun with the cheating little punks. If people have such hang ups about proxy and stuff dont play the opponent and also maybe its time to look at other hobbies. Some people have a really carefree approach to gaming which is good while others are to interested in RAW and WYSIWYG and can be very anal.

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

moosifer — GMT

But as I said, at what point should you be ponying up to purchase the items that you have been proxying. I have paid in full for what I have, why should i go up against an army of nothing (ie bases with writing on them) instead of fighting a real army? You are right this is a hobby, and no I should not have to look at another hobby. Why? Because I have the finances to be able to afford the goods. It is not I who should be looking for another hobby, but those who refuse to shell out the money after trying it out (3 or 4 games proxying army/list).

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Voodoo Boyz — GMT

This is getting away from the original topic.

The question isn't about is it OK to proxy models in games where you don't know your opponent personally.

The question is about use of "Counts As" for a serious army.

Lets say you're going to one of them newfangled Grand Tournaments they're going to run in 2007. And you come against the following:

1) Hellfuy's Lysander Wing army. It follows all rules and traits of the Imperial Fists army as well as all the rules for Lysander, but they're not painted yellow. All squads are fully painted and marked, and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. He points out before the game that he is playing an Imperial Fists army with Lysander.

Would you dock his Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

2.) My own Ultramarine Army with Traits. It follows all the rules and restrictions laid down in the trait system and does not use any Ultramarine specific units or wargear, but it is painted and marked with Ultramarine colors and Symbols and all equipment is clearly represented on all the models. Before the game I mention that it is using the traits rules and does not contain any UM specific items.

Would you dock my Painting/Sport/Composition Scores after playing it?

If you answered yes to either question, explain what your justification is for doing so.

And FYI, #2 was specifically answered as something that was acceptable for use at the coming US GT's (thanks Jeff!).

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 11/15/2006 2:40 PM
[quote]Posted By moosifer on 11/15/2006 1:09 PM

Isnt that why models are painted/modeled a certain way? To AVOID any issues that might come up?
[/quote] Do you play any games with actual, mature people?

[/quote]

A little hostile there nyarly to a relatively new poster, expressing a valid opinion, even if completely wrong

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Sarigar — GMT

Stangelooper: Not a problem if I'm called a snob; don't mind it. Luckily, I won't have to play against someone with an Ork army, but it is really a Marine army and make me try to remember what is what in an army. Again, not a lot of fun for me. Different strokes for different folks. But, if you want to sling mud, so be it, I'm confortable with what you've got to sling. But, that's cool that my minivan is a symbol of economic status, as opposed to utilitarian usage, or the pickup truck I use so I can load my ruck and other gear in order for me to perform various aspects of my job. I have no problem with the whiners who say life isn't fair; makes for one less person I have to worry about when I'm trying to acheive al lthat I can.

But, with the armies that are Orks, but are really Marines, makes it easier for me to find a different opponent so I can get a fun game in on my limited time. I don't like having to constantly try and figure out what model is really what.

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Frazzled — GMT

Respectfully.

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Glaive Company CO — GMT

I agree with Billy. The example at hand is hellfury's non-yellow Lysander list. I seriously doubt anyone would actually have the balls to stop the game halfway through and call a judge over to demand a forfeit. I have to admit that I wouldn't even know that his guys were even supposed to be yellow if I was playing him. I myself have used the col. Shaefer rules with my own version of the shaefer/Kage models. I like the rules, but use my own fluff. I also swing completely the opposite way with my Blood angels. I demand that the Death Company be painted distinctively from the rest of the force. This applies to my own army as well as my opponents force. The difference though (as far as I can tell) is that the BA codex actually lays it out there as a rule.

This has been said before, but the main thing to consider is communication. Make sure the opponent has all of the information available to him.

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Sarigar — GMT

To be on point with the matter:

A person is playing a Lysanderwing type army, but his Marines aren't painted yellow, they are painted pink (or whatever color)-not an issue. I personally don't care what color they are.

A person who throws down an Ork army, but is playing a Lysanderwing and has to explain in detail what each model really is; problem. It can get confusing and saps the fun out of the game for me.

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Frazzled — GMT

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By Kikkoman on 11/16/2006 11:19 AM
What if the conversion alters the size of the model, say for a vehicle

I have this plan (likely never to be done) to turn the Fire Prism into a sort of walker-lookin' robot thing. It would wind up not as wide or long as a fire prism. Does that give it an unfair advantage? Such as being able to hide behind smaller terrain. [/quote]

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

beef — GMT

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

moosifer — GMT

Yes I get plenty of games, and lose most of them because I play to enjoy the game. Like other gamers I get frustrated at times, but I still dont quit if Im getting stomped, shake hands and say good game at the end. Im 25 and no I do not hang out under bridges, in fact play with some lurkers on this forums (Hi Mike and Rich!)

As to your tourney question, I would play the army, but I would politely ask to have it explained to me as well as to see what unit is what on your roster sheet if there is a problem. Reason for this being with conversions on the scale of an entire army, it is very simple to fudge things. Im not saying you, or anyone here would do this, but with converted armies it is very easy to see the confused look on your opponents face and then say "Ok now I have X attacks at X weapon skill, reroll fails" even though that is in a unit on the other side of the board.

What it comes down to is communication, and if your heavily converted opponent is willing and able to do it, then more power to him. However in my experience this is the exception to the rule, and it has warped my viewpoint on players of the game

RE: Rules Vs. Aesthetics

Frazzled — GMT

I'm more on side with Moosifer on that. Non-tourney games I see absolutley no problem. Tourney games the conversions need to be very clear (as noted I've gone so far as to paint "obliterus" in gold on my obliterator conversions so there's no issue). But tourney games are the minority so I again say go for it.