Latest posts for the thread "Interesting GW pricing mentality"

Interesting GW pricing mentality

Wolfstan — GMT

Having had a look at the new Eldar stuff, I found myself a little bemused with the price difference between the new warwalkers and wraithlord. Both of them appear to use about the same amount of raw material, so I couldn't understand why the warwalker was £15 and the wraithlord was £25.

Anyway I asked about this in a polite way at my local store and was informed by a redshirt that basically it was down to the type of model it was. Basically it's a dreadnought and dreadnoughts are £25!?! So does this mean that all dreadnought are over priced or are warwalkers being sold at a loss, probably not the 1st option !?

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

HFJor — GMT

I most seriously doubt that anything GW sells is being sold "at a loss"...

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

GrimTeef — GMT

This is just more confirmation that GW models are priced according to how well they are supposed to do in the game (or just points cost), and not how much raw material they require.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Redbeard — GMT

That's not quite true. They're not priced according to how well they do in the game, but rather, how many they expect people to buy.

Ogryns, for example, are priced at something like $25 US and are awful.

The thing is, you only ever need 3 wraithlords in your army. You could run 9 warwalkers. Or 3 in one slot.

Odds are, the cost to sculpt both models was about the same. And the cost of the molds would also be similar. So, the question is, how many do they need to sell to recoup those two fixed costs? It's really pretty simple economics. If they invest in the new molds and sculpts, they want to devote so much per model to recouping those investments. If they expect to sell three-times more war-walkers than wraithlords, the recoup-per-model doesn't have to be as much. And, I reckon that calculation also takes into account how many people already have their 3 wraithlords (most eldar players), compared to how many have any warwalkers (not quite so many).

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

jojo_monkey_boy — GMT

Redbeard hit the nail on the head. I fully expect this thread to now dissolve into whining.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

cubeblue — GMT

Redbeard's got the crux of it.

The cost to make the unit really only has so much on the price, but we all know that plastics cost significantly more to make than metals. Although perhaps the overall cost is a little cheaper since GW went to their new plastics creation methods. This is why when models go to plastic, you don't always see much savings, if any at all.

For all units GW sells, they have market research (and tarot readings) to guess at how many units will sell at each price point based on game stats, past sales, etc. They find the match between the price point and the number of units expected to sell which brings in optimum profit.

It is this same sort of market research which GW uses to raise prices from time to time. They see that if they raise the cost of something by 10 bucks, 5% less of the unit will be sold, but the 95% that sell at the higher price will bring in far more money.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

cmon dont talk economics, anybody who has ever worked for GW knows the price of the plastic kits and trust me they dont cost nothing to nmake. as for the moulds GW pays its staff rubbish money anyway so where do they need to recoup the money they spent? Nowhere its just about the profit margin and about which items will sell less quantities but still be needed in an army, How many eldar armies dont include at least 2 wraithlords? O see more wraithlord usually then warwalkers. Unless you count the odd gamer that maxes out on warwalkers and starcannons.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Gundammecha — GMT

Grey knight Terminators....

Need anyone say more

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

If you walk into a hobby shop, you'll see that the high end tank and plane kits cost anywhere from 35-60 dollars, about the same as a Leman Russ.

GW's number one expense is store overhead. Rent for stores, salary, benefits and all that add up.

I've seen a study that shows that the profit off a land raider is about 4-6 dollars. Even if it is more, I can tell you that they aren't making a gazillion dollars. People think that GW stores are like grocery stores where people are constantly going in and out picking stuff up. They aren't.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Saldiven — GMT

You know, it is true that in virtually every business, personnel costs are the largest expense of a company.

This makes me wonder why GW ever started or keeps up their GW stores. Privateer Press seems to be doing just fine with the old model of simply producing a product and marketting it to local/regional hobby stores and letting them sell the product to the public. I'm willing to bet that without the huge overhead of all the GW Stores and their respective staffs, GW could cut prices and still realize an increase in profitabillity.

Granted, part of me wants to trust that the upper management of GW is savvy enough to do what is in the best interest of the company, but I have a hard time believing this when we continually hear about loss of market share and revenue, while other minature game companies are experiencing the exact opposite.

Unfortunately, I have no crystal ball and can only make conjecture about pricing strategy. At this point, I only worry that GW is slowly in the process of pricing themselves out of the range of the average gamer and forcing business to go elsewhere with its entertainment dollar.

Sal.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Drake_Marcus — GMT

[quote]Posted By beef on 11/15/2006 7:23 AM
cmon dont talk economics, anybody who has ever worked for GW knows the price of the plastic kits and trust me they dont cost nothing to nmake. as for the moulds GW pays its staff rubbish money anyway so where do they need to recoup the money they spent? Nowhere its just about the profit margin and about which items will sell less quantities but still be needed in an army, How many eldar armies dont include at least 2 wraithlords? O see more wraithlord usually then warwalkers. Unless you count the odd gamer that maxes out on warwalkers and starcannons.[/quote]
A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make. Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term? According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales. Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year. A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

supabeast — GMT

[quote]Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM
[quote]...
[/quote]
A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.[/quote]
Isn't that about what it costs for each sprue on the mold, which is why kits with three or four sprues cost so much to make? At least that's how I had always understood it.

Anyway, 40k is still a cheaper hobby than golf. Or photography. Or oil painting. Or a whole lot of other options...

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

warboss — GMT

it always makes me smile when i hear reports of "one study i saw says" and "reports state" since they have the same credibility as a gradeschool rumor. let's face it, the only thing we can testify to is what we experience ourselves. the exception would be if someone was a high ranking stockholder or exec at GW who might be privvy to those types of information and i don't recall anyone with that kind of a resume ever posting on any board.

imho, and that's all it is, the reason the wraithlord is more expensive is because of demand. i frequently used to see 2 wraithlords in eldar armies; judging from posts i've seen, that won't change even with the new rules. gw can charge what they want because people will buy them to get the ingame benefits. warwalkers, on the other hand, are few and far between on the tabletops of the chicagoland gaming scene. they have to be discounted to encourage demand.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

deitpike — GMT

nooooooo!!!!!
Invasion of the pricing threads!

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

[quote]
A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make. Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term? According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales. Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year. A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms. [/quote]

It was my understanding a mold cost a million bucks, and you'd need several to keep up with demand.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Kotrin — GMT

[quote]Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM

A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make. Do you actually think a cost like that is tough to payoff in the short-term, let-alone the long term? According to reports the Land Raider kit paid for itself after the first day of sales. Obviously that's a pretty extreme case, but even the least purchased kit is going to be paid off after the first year. A 100k mould would hardly fall into the realm of a long term liability in financial terms. [/quote]

I'd like to destroy this everlasting urban legend: plastic moulds DO NOT cost £100'000 to make, not even a fraction thereof.

How could have other plastic kit manufacturers - from old Revel, Heller, scale trains manufacturers, toy brands, you name them, to current japanese mecha kits - live for so long with so little sales and production runs if any mould was costing them a bloody hundred thousand pounds, for God's sake?!! Do you think that Noch would create a scenery kit like this one if they had to sell as many as GW's Land Raiders to recoup their cost?

The fact that GW has long thrown the rumor of such a price for a single mould (which might even be true for them with their bloated management structure, who knows) doesn't means it's true. Or true for everyone.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Saldiven — GMT

Hrm, good point, Kotrin. I hadn't thought about that.

I remember a model by Tamiya that I build of an old German Marder mobile artillery piece. I know for a fact that it had five sprues with over 160 pieces. The model sold for about $35.00 American. If the moulds cost as much as listed above, I can't imagine them ever turning a profit. I mean, how many people actually buy that type of model, compared to models used in miniature games?

Sal.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Saldiven — GMT

Oh, and Warboss, the "reports" that I mentioned were the stockholder reports that GW releases on a quarterly basis, since they are a publicly traded company. If I remember correctly, one of the Dakka posters regularly provides a link to that report when it is released on the internet.

Check the link below to see GW's investor relations page. You can see links where their Total Revenue, Operating Profit, Pre-Tax Profit, and Earnings per Share are all down over last year. They also have a link to the Chairman's address to the stockholders where he attempts to explain what has caused this slide and to try to show what the company has done to reverse the trend. Unfortunately, I do not believe he has come to the right decision as to what has caused the decline...I think they have a flawed business model, right down to the GW stores. That's just my opinion, though.

http://investor.games-workshop.com/investor_relations/financial_results/Results2006/full_year/default.htm

Sal.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

warboss — GMT

@saldiven:
i've seen those links and i read them when they pop up but i don't recall any mention about the landraider paying itself off but i could be wrong. I will gladly eat my words if you could find proof in their own publications that GW is gouging us. my skepticism in what i read on any board is due to the fact that 93.4% of rumor statistics are wrong (including this one!)

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Saldiven — GMT

I cannot comment on that. I wasn't really trying to. What I was trying to point out is that the entire business model of GW seems to be failing. They have their lowest profits in four years and their lowest total revenue in three. This cannot be due to the "economy" at large, because while this is happening to GW, companies like Privateer Press are going through the roof and expanding (probably) beyond their founders' wildest dreams.

I couldn't tell you whether this is due to mismanagement of costs, opening of unprofitable and untenable specialty stores, silly pricing strategies, or just the simple fact that the educated gaming consumer is just plain tired of the shoddy rules and almost complete lack of support for their product provided by GW (might be a combination of all of them). It is a shame to me, I have enjoyed the GW games since about 1988 when I was still in highschool.

Again, I don't know that GW is "gouging" anyone; I do know that their pricing seems to be driving more people away from the game than anything else. Heck, I can honestly say I have spent less than $300 on GW merchandise in the last five years, 'cuz that stuff is just plain too expensive.

Sal.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

nyarlathotep667 — GMT

[quote]Posted By supabeast on 11/15/2006 9:58 AM
[quote]Posted By Drake_Marcus on 11/15/2006 9:09 AM
[quote]...
[/quote]
A typical plastic mould costs about 100,000 Pounds Sterling to make.[/quote]
Isn't that about what it costs for each sprue on the mold, which is why kits with three or four sprues cost so much to make? At least that's how I had always understood it.
[/quote]
Multiple sprues can be and are done on a single die (the block of aluminum or other metal that the plastic injection mold is cut into). However, once cut, the things are nearly indestructible if properly taken care of, hence why the longer a plastic kit is in production, the more profitable it becomes. Furthermore, while it may cost 100,000£ for someone off the street to cut a die (along with engineering the kit for said die), over the years GW has, like most other plastic kit makers, instituted a wide range of cost cutting measures which have significantly brought that cost down.

On the other hand, metal spin casting, while relatively cheap for short runs of figures, has high labor costs. From having to regularly remould (the RTV molds last for 100-200 castings I've heard, which isn't a whole lot), to the amount of people required to operate the machines (injected plastic kits are considerably automated, needing only a handful of operators), all add up to significant costs over time. This is ultimately why GW is moving away from metal and into plastics: It's vastly more profitable for them, especially in the long run.

But we most certainly do not see those cost reductions. Someone compared GW's kits to high end scale models earlier: When I buy one of those kits for $35-60, they come with more sprues with vastly more parts, all which have finer, crisper detail than GW's chunky ham-fisted kits. Even the low end mfgrs (Italeri for example) offer this, for $20-$35, which is considerably cheaper while the kits are much better and often bigger than the GW counterpart. These companies also often have catalogs with thousands of current production plastic kits (and, often, just as many that are out of production, Tamiya, I'm looking at you).

The point of all this, is GW makes enormous amounts of profit off their kits. Or at least did, as it's what has been keeping them afloat (that and loans...) as their sales volume plummets due to a raft of crappy business decisions the board of executives have made over the past several years (and seem to be hell bent on continuing to make). Continued price hikes are but only one of these bad decisions. And with the lowering of sales volume means that each unit is taking on more operating expenses (ie: high personnel costs) than ever before, but instead of trying to find out why sales volume is in the toilet and doing anything about it, GW prefers to raise prices, again.

Lastly, GW long ago dropped any pretense of pricing by weight or cost and have long moved to price by use. Hence why a Wraithlord is much more expensive than a War Walker, despite both being about the same size and having about the same number of parts and options. Likewise, metal command figures are outrageously priced when compared to single metal troop figures (with the former sometimes costing three to five times as much as an equivalent trooper). And they're making profits off of both (note: there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING that GW sells that they do NOT make a significant profit off of).

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Triggerbaby — GMT

Oh god. Not the goddamn moulds discussion again.

The cost of a mould depends on a number of things. How big it is determines how much steel is required, and the brick of steel is perhaps the largest single cost. Complexity is a factor- a two part mould is cheaper than a four part mould with inserts. Longevity is another issue. Not only does the mould material deteremine how long it will last, but also better mould designers and machinists know how to organize the mould so that it wears slower. Level of detail is obviously a concern, as higher details generally require higher injection pressures and more heat. Surface finish is important- is a run through the CNC mill sufficient, or do you need a few days in the ESD machine as well? And finally, what material you plan to put in the mould is a major factor, as some plastics require higher temperatures and pressures than others.

In previous jobs I've had moulds made, and I've been to China to see them in production. Those moulds were about the same size as GW sprues, had less detail but good surface finish, had inserts, were for lower production runs than GW, and were for ABS plastic. They cost about $30,000 US. What does that tell me about GW's moulds? Approximately squat. The point is that comparing one mould to another is difficult, so unless you have a direct quote from a model manufacturer as to what their mould cost and what its intended life was, you probably shouldn't put much faith in any estimate.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Abadabadoobaddon — GMT

[quote]Anyway, 40k is still a cheaper hobby than golf. Or photography. Or oil painting. Or a whole lot of other options...
[/quote]
Or recreational cosmetic surgery. Or Russian space flights. Or hunting poor people in New Orleans with Lance Henriksen and Arnold Vosloo...

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Jester — GMT

[quote]Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/16/2006 5:19 PM
[/quote] [quote] and Arnold Vosloo...[/quote] Or his lower priced American equivalent, Billy Zane.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

zero — GMT

Okay I know that this all boils down to the fact that GW is releasing new stuff that you think you need to have to play so that you can stay "hip" cause you have all this new stuff... well guess what the old stuff still works just fine. So hears the deal... quit *female dog*ing about how GW does the pricing and go out and buy that fancy new plastic kit.

And yes I do plan on updating my eldar army with the new kits because my eldar army is rather old and is painted like crap... do you hear me *female dog*ing about pricing... hell no... so suck it up.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Triggerbaby — GMT

[quote]Posted By zero on 11/17/2006 8:25 AM
Okay I know that this all boils down to the fact that GW is releasing new stuff that you think you need to have to play so that you can stay "hip" cause you have all this new stuff... well guess what the old stuff still works just fine. So hears the deal... quit *female dog*ing about how GW does the pricing and go out and buy that fancy new plastic kit.

And yes I do plan on updating my eldar army with the new kits because my eldar army is rather old and is painted like crap... do you hear me *female dog*ing about pricing... hell no... so suck it up.[/quote]

Far be it for me to steer the subject away from your favorite subject, [i]yourself[/i], but I feel that you may have missed something. That something is the point. I'll explain it using lots of uncommon words because I know you like the smug, superior feeling that you get from reading long sentences with big words in them.

Foreign as the idea may to you, many of us have less than ambivalent feelings towards GW's pricing policy of forced sodomy. As you already aware, GW is charging $50 for about $1 of packaging and plastic- many of us have a problem with this simple pricing model as our knowledge of the obscene disparity between retail and raw costs makes us feel like [i]a pack of goddamn suckers[/i] for making purchases. Apparently, you do not receive this sensation, or perhaps you do but simply don't find it uncomfortable. Perhaps you regard the thought of being scammed as some sort of [i]primal rush[/i], and somehow you are addicted to the illicit high of deliberately being a consumer moron (if this is the case, I suggest slot machines). Regardless, I'm not one to judge your hobbies, and this is not one of the the deeper issues anyway. Here's one of them: GW's exorbitant price point means that many posters, many of them GW veterans, cannot indulge their desires sufficiently to make the venture worth attempting at the outset; they have been effectively priced out of the game. Here's another facet you didn't consider: higher prices discourage purchases, leading to a smaller gaming population and a reduced local gaming population, leading to increased difficulty in organizing matches. Furthermore, higher prices affect the purchaser demographic, discouraging the mid teens to mid twenties market (those without either indulgent parents or a stable, well-paying job). This, combined with GW's marketing directed towards a younger audience and their poor ruleset and mediocre support alienating the veteran gamer means that higher prices have effectively aided the shift of GW gaming towards the pre-teen and early-teen audience- an undesirable sea change from the perspective of the gaming community. Finally, GW's accelerated pricing policy is regarded by many to be one of the most significant contributing factors to GW corporate’s poor financial performance over the last couple of years (alongside decreasing support through studio staff cutbacks, insufficient attention to balance in the rulesets, and misinterpreting the reliability of the Lord of the Rings system in terms of profitability).

We are not complaining because we simply hate spending money. We are complaining because higher prices effectively devalue all previous investment in GW products, regardless of our personal spending habits. I don't know if you're an intelligent person who simply didn't bother thinking before you decided to air your personal grievances or if you're simply a garden-variety idiot, but I'm pretty sure that a couple of Ex-Lax gel tabs might help to dislodge your head.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/17/2006 11:38 AM
[quote]

Do you feel the same way about movies? Books? Video games? Programs? Anything besides basic commodities?

Really, this is basic business practice. Your cost of raw materials is often a trival part of the cost of a product or service. If they priced it at small margin to their physical cost of busienss GW would have to close their doors that same day.

Whats your beef with them specifically? If their pricing is too high for the market then their sales will decline and they will either lower prices or go out of business. If its not too high they will make money. Your false analogy implies some sort of "fair" pricing which only works in command economies.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Triggerbaby — GMT

[quote]

[/quote]

I made a post some time ago* that explained my specific beef with the prices. I'll post the relevant passages here in case you missed it:

...this is not one of the the deeper issues anyway. Here's one of them: GW's exorbitant price point means that many posters, many of them GW veterans, cannot indulge their desires sufficiently to make the venture worth attempting at the outset; they have been effectively priced out of the game. Here's another facet you didn't consider: higher prices discourage purchases, leading to a smaller gaming population and a reduced local gaming population, leading to increased difficulty in organizing matches. Furthermore, higher prices affect the purchaser demographic, discouraging the mid teens to mid twenties market (those without either indulgent parents or a stable, well-paying job). This, combined with GW's marketing directed towards a younger audience and their poor ruleset and mediocre support alienating the veteran gamer means that higher prices have effectively aided the shift of GW gaming towards the pre-teen and early-teen audience- an undesirable sea change from the perspective of the gaming community. Finally, GW's accelerated pricing policy is regarded by many to be one of the most significant contributing factors to GW corporate’s poor financial performance over the last couple of years (alongside decreasing support through studio staff cutbacks, insufficient attention to balance in the rulesets, and misinterpreting the reliability of the Lord of the Rings system in terms of profitability).

We are not complaining because we simply hate spending money. We are complaining because higher prices effectively devalue all previous investment in GW products, regardless of our personal spending habits.

[i]*Less than an hour ago, on this forum, and you replied to it.[/i]

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

Your argument, if correct, is the working of the effective working of the market. Sales will fall. If margins do not correspondingly approve (the Mercedes effect) then this will negatively impact the Company. If possible they will then reduce prices. If not they go under.

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

carmachu — GMT

Do you feel the same way about movies? Books? Video games? Programs? Anything besides basic commodities?

Myself? Yes.

I dont bother going to the movies anymore, except on rare occassions, or unless the little one HAS to see a movie. Its cheaper to wait for it to come out on DVD and buy it or better yet, rent it, than it is to go with my wife to the movies. Too many arent worth going to see nowadays. And thats not taking into consideration concession stand pricing.

Same with video games. New ones arent really worth the price. Wait a year or 2 and you can get them for $20 or less. Or buy it used later on.

Too many things arent worth the asking price. GW's just tops the list of crazy pricing.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

Ah but making copying a CD and boxing it only costa few cents. You're already paying this type of markup.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

keezus — GMT

GW's business policy is absolute genius... for Bizzaro-world.

Let's look at how their attempt to fix their own problems actively FUBAR their actual goals.

Reality: Revenues Down

GW's Reality Distortion Field Cause: Veterans aren't buying. LOTR bubble burst, Atlanta Fab still being paid off.

GW's Solution: Raise prices, target younger -first time- audience, reduce spending by removing web support, cutting White Dwarf budget, reductions in events staff.

Actual result of the above:

#1 Raise prices:
Veterans who represented a slow but steady revenue stream are disapearing as prices are too high for impulse buying. Parents generally balk at the present prices as well.

#2 Target younger first time audience:
As part of #1. kids can not afford the product themselves. Parents are now balking at the high prices. Parents are also balking at the fact that after paying said huge start-up cost, the addon cost continues to be huge. Parents are also finding that their little ADD suffering kids won't put in the effort to justify the continued support of the product. Veterans are discouraged because playing on a league night (outside of your busy schedule) usually results in playing some whiny drooling goober kid with an unpainted power-army carried in a shoebox. The kid doesn't find getting hammered by an experienced general much fun either.

#3 Removing web support, cutting White Dwarf budget, reductions in events staff.
Well... I'm sure doing this is very helpful in stimulating revenue when your customer-base is shrinking.

So in conclusion, GW's strategy seems to be:

MARKET TO THE KIDS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRICING THEM OUT OF THE MARKET, AND ALIENATING THE VETERANS WHO CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD OUR INCREASINGLY EXCLUSIVE PRODUCT!!!

Yay! ME BIZZARO, ME NUBAH ONE!

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Triggerbaby — GMT

[quote]Posted By jfrazell on 11/17/2006 12:27 PM

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.

[/quote]

I don't know what sort of assumptions you're operating under, but just to remind you: the average GW shopper is not[i] a goddamn economist[/i]. We don't, as a rule, look at the $40.00 GW-brand aquarium plants and say "Isn't it wonderful that the machinery of practical economics will likely reduce the price of this product over time?" No. We say "that's really expensive and I'm kind of insulted that GW thinks I'd pay that much," and then we probably will say "I'd like a donut" because we like donuts.

In terms of the consumer, the assumption that a price should reflect the [i]value[/i] of the product is the norm. The value is in what we want out of the product, and for GW, what we want out of the product is some bits of plastic and metal, some good rules, and a gaming community. Arguably, the prices five to ten years ago were sufficient to cover the cost of these desires and leave GW with a profit. Since then? We're paying extra or GW's bloated retail model and Tom Kirby's screwups.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By keezus on 11/17/2006 12:38 PM

MARKET TO THE KIDS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRICING THEM OUT OF THE MARKET, AND ALIENATING THE VETERANS WHO CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD OUR INCREASINGLY EXCLUSIVE PRODUCT!!!

Yay! ME BIZZARO, ME NUBAH ONE![/quote]
Brilliantly correct. You can either target the premium market, or the economy market. You can't do both effectively with the same product line and market plan (although they could bifurcate the two through services).

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/17/2006 12:45 PM
[quote]Posted By jfrazell on 11/17/2006 12:27 PM

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.

[/quote]

You're starting to foam a little at the mouth there Triggerbaby. Profanity is not necessary. Interestingly you agreed with the point I was making. The interaction between the perceived value we receive and price determines their sales. If we feel its valued we'll support that price. If not we walk away play something else, move on, or just buy less. That will force them to eventually change thier behavior. So I guess the average GW shopper really is a "goddamn economist" because they are acting exactly how an efficient system would operate.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

keezus — GMT

Jfrazell:

That's an interesting thought. In V4, they could have easily gone with: Battle for McCragge, Battle for Skull Pass and "Battlepack Addons" with included "Brochure style ruleset" for the other races, as a "starter game" with all the basic mechanics in place - for the kids... and then had a more robust "Advanced WH40k / Advanced WH Fantasy" for the rest of the crowd.

Hell, in "mini-starterforce format", these starters would probably sell well to the Veterans as well. How cool would it be to buy a "Necron" addon pack with 8 warriors, 6 flayed ones and 3 scarab swarms with a small Necronesque scenery piece and 5 WBB casualty models for around $45? If it came with quickstart rules, it wouldn't seem bad at all.

Howzabout an ork starter with 10 slugga boyz, 10 shoota boyz, a powerklaw Nob, an ammo runt, squig and a selection of Orky barricades?

Granted, this would involve coherent rules writing, and somehow, I feel this is beyond the writers.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Triggerbaby — GMT

[quote]

You're starting to foam a little at the mouth there Triggerbaby.

[/quote]

Starting? That's all I do here. I come to Dakka with the express purpose of getting angry and throwing little tantrums.

[quote]

Profanity is not necessary.

[/quote]

Yes it is. We're on an [i]internet forum.[/i]

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

Exactly. This is a public forum. No need for profanity.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

As for the mould prices Trust me I know enough staff members who work/worked for GW and the mould do not cost that much. why do you think they used to give staff sprues on weight. I paid £200 and got £2000 worth of SW stuff. so that meens a £10 sprue is only really worth £1. Ok I understand about overheads but they pay there staff so little that surely that should not matter and they dont open in the mornings anymore so they now save 15hours of electricity/gas bill a week and they have gone from 2 vets nights a week to 1. Less staff also.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Phryxis — GMT

Here's where I get a bit lost:

People here are complaining about GW's prices, lambasting their stupidity and lack of business sense. These same people complain about how unaffordable GW's products are due to the aforementioned stupidity.

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

I'm not a world class genius, and I've never run a business. I've also got a wife and kid to support. But I still buy whatever models and kits I need, and then probably 50% more that I never even get around to painting, and it barely even registers as an expense relative to the other stuff I'm shelling out for.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

DO you have a crack addiction? What other hobby or unnecessary thing do you spend money on that is more expensive than GW products? I waste alot on other things aswell that are not basic necessaties but lets not kid ourselves GW is overpriced. I dont however complain about it (its just a fact) I buy it cos I am an addict (GW products not Crack)

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

frenrik — GMT

There are costs to the product besides the plastic it takes to make them.

I don't think the game designers and sculpters they hire are just doing everything for free, and I doubt they work cheap.

It's also not like you need to buy much after you have a certain amount of models unless for some reason you want to have 4-5 armies, or that there isn't a value attached to the models you could recoup by selling them.

If you've had your army for a 3-4 years, you could probalby ebay it all off at a profit now.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Depres — GMT

[quote]Posted By Phryxis on 11/17/2006 4:29 PM

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

[/quote] Sorry but i had to chime in.

I'll give you a small example:

I, like most wargamming geeks, love small tanks, and the micro machines one are incredibly cute so I would like to have a bunch, but there is no way in hell I'm going to waste 10 bucks (dunno how much does a blister pack cost nowadays) for 4 tiny tanks ( specially when you can buy micro armor for much cheaper and much better qualty, notice the similarity with some old gaming company ;P ). Or for example I like console gaming and there is no way in hell I'm going to pay 600$ for a PS3, i'll wait and buy one when it's cheaper ( and i can asure you i have the cash to do so right now ).

The problem is that my inner adult is yelling inside my brain something in the lines of "you're making a mistake if you pay so much for so little"

Of course maybe you don't have such a problem...

Oh and the thing about sculptors wages, as far as i know they get paid a shitty amount of cash, if you think that any sculptor or painter in GW makes more than 2500$ (and i'm being incredibly optimistic) a month I think you're way too optimistic. And considering the scale of sales, that's a non issue for production costs.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

I agree with depres. Why do some people think GW pay there staff well? They DONT. The main painter they had at Warhammer world that did all there cool conversion and painting was not making hardly any money. I know cos I asked him plus I know enough friends and relatives who have worked there at different times.

As for selling armies at a profit? you have to be joking unless you paint to golden demon standard you will be loosing money.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

zero — GMT

[quote]Posted By beef on 11/17/2006 2:59 PM
Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

[/quote]

exactly... if you don't like it then don't spend the money on GW games. You won't be missed trust me because when one of us quits buying their stuff 5 or 6 little kiddies step up to take your place at the table.

And back to something that was said earlier about movies, books, and games... I know that some of you... not all... but some of you go to the movies and pay on average of $8 for a ticket and then go and spend another $5 on a large soda when you only get about 30cents of soda and a cup. I know that pricing cause I currently work for a movie theatre while I am going to college.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Hellfury — GMT

[quote]Posted By zero on 11/17/2006 7:22 PM
[quote]Posted By beef on 11/17/2006 2:59 PM
Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

[/quote]

[/quote]
Sorry dude. Unless youure in an area saturated with "GW SHOPS" then that wont occur. The vets leave and then there is no one left to teach the kiddies who GW is targeting. That and a considerably lighter community makes for less free promotion of their products. If its not being played, how can it be promoted?

GW has to keep both ends happy unless they can get a corner on the market as far as closing down the FLGS's.

Helena Montana is a perfect example of this.

There are over two dozen hardcore GW gamers here, but we all refuse to promote the game to kids and newbs. We play at home.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Xerxes — GMT

[quote]Posted By Phryxis on 11/17/2006 4:29 PM
Here's where I get a bit lost:

People here are complaining about GW's prices, lambasting their stupidity and lack of business sense. These same people complain about how unaffordable GW's products are due to the aforementioned stupidity.

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

I'm not a world class genius, and I've never run a business. I've also got a wife and kid to support. But I still buy whatever models and kits I need, and then probably 50% more that I never even get around to painting, and it barely even registers as an expense relative to the other stuff I'm shelling out for.[/quote]
I could afford buying used chewing gum every week for $50 each. Doesn't mean I'm going to.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

@Hellfury, Sorry dude when I said the vets leave I meant in the UK as the main business here is the kids not the vets as they have enough Stores. Not to sure about the states so I was in fact refering to the UK GW's as I have no idea how many they have in the US and how accesable they are for the kids.

@ Xerxes, Correct buddy just cos you can afford stuff that is crap does not meen you should buy it, unless you got no brain

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Hellfury — GMT

actually beef, i was reffering to zero's message. i couldnt take your quote out of his.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Kilkrazy — GMT

You only need to buy official GW models if you want to take an army to an official competition or play in their shops. If you like the rules and fluff, you can buy much cheaper models from other makers and play with friends. There's tons of choice in SF 25-28mm gaming.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Drake_Marcus — GMT

There's some interesting discussions going on here guys and girls but it's not news or rumours. So I've moved it here to discussions where it belongs.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

Playstation 3.....700 bucks?

New games---60 bucks...

Controllers and accessories etc.....50 bucks.

810 dollars.....an army or two of warhammer that won't need to be replaced in 3-4 years with playstation 4.

10 space marines for 35 bucks = 3.5 dollars a marine. Goto Reaper and price one of their mini's. Warmachine figures look to be about 5.59 a fig.Holy Cow a warjack is 35 bucks??? for that little thing?

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

810 for an army? yeah if its only 1500 points worth with no oprions or scope for change. And most people add to there armies they dont just have one standard list and thats all they use.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

Space Marine Army ( based on my Green Angels)

Space Marine Megaforce. Gives me the following units:

1 5 man sniper scout

20 marines. For ease I'll divvy them up into 2 10 man squads, with 2 plasmaguns and 2 powerfists. 1 assault squad.

2 Rhinoes ( instead of the predator and razorback).

Thats 175.

I need 3 more sniper scout squads. thats 75

1 normal scout squad....thats 20

4 lascannons and 4 heavy bolters 120

2 boxes of tactical marines for 4 5 man squads 70

1 Space Marine Veteran Squad box for Vet Sergeants 35

2 landspeeders 60

1 whirlwind 40

1 assault squad 25

Grand total is : 620. Far short of 810. And you get a 2000 point army thats well rounded, and you can add in a dreadnoght right away.

so what can your 190 buy you? How about most of my WG army?

3 boxes of Terminators 150

1 box of Blood Claws 35.

So another 35 and some bitz and I'm done. ( ok thats barebones minimum...I bought 5 boxes of Termies to do this army, and traded for the extra assault cannons). But it can still be done.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

KnightoNi1894 — GMT

[quote]Posted By Green Angel on 11/18/2006 1:09 PM

Playstation 3.....700 bucks?

New games---60 bucks...

Controllers and accessories etc.....50 bucks.

810 dollars.....an army or two of warhammer that won't need to be replaced in 3-4 years with playstation 4.

[/quote]

Or, you could be sane and buy an X-Box 360 for 350 bucks, then wait a month or 2 for the games to drop to 1/2 price. Or, better yet, get game fly instead of buying the games.

Oh, and there is no warjack that costs $35. Some of the uniques are more expensive than $35, but they dwarf dreadnoughts. The rest? Yeah, they're cheaper. From $20 to $30. Oh, and infantry cost between 3.66 and 6.66 per model. Most costs about 5 bucks a model.

Knight

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

Irrespective of how much an army cost to build its still expensive and time consuming. If you did that army over a space of a yEAR THAN nO ITS VERY CHEAP. However if you are a fast painter than that could take upto a month and then its expensive cos what do you do next month when everything is made and painted? Ok thats a bit extreme but the main point was that GW prices are expensive. Look at the drop pods. Are you seriously telling me they could not be made of plastic? The best example I can give ios the FW baneblade, It costs £160 i think and is actually based on a Russion T40 or T90 tank. you can pick that kit up in the same size as the banblade for £20 at the most. the only thing missing is the lascannons and heavy bolters and a few little bits. But the shape and design is the same. how do GW justify that? I know that If I want a baneblade I am getting a T90 instaed.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

I drive a Ford Escort that cost me something like 15K. What's the difference between that and a Porsche? How dare they charge so much more when there's almost no difference between my car that their car!

What do you do the next month? Uhm....how about play games?

How do you address the fact that other company's miniatures are comparably priced to GW's? Warmachine figures cost more per figure then GW's, barring characters.

The Cygnar Thunderhead Heavy Warjack costs 35.99 on the Warstore site.

Plastic droppods are coming.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

stonefox — GMT

Heh, the PS3 is stupid. Nice job picking the absurdly-priced system to suit your needs by the way. Try the 360 for a more fair comparison. Also, the smart people sold their PS3s on eBay so they're getting their consoles for free.

Also, nice analogy by the way. Last I heard, each game you buy for a console gives you full access to that game. Buying an army does not. Better add up all the armies for WHFB/40k if you're going to compare the game (that is, ONE game) of 40k/WHFB to a console. Hell, you can even do the same thing for the entire miniatures hobby. Takes $5-10k (conservative estimate using eBay) to have full access to a single game for minis while you get the same thing for $50 in a console game.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Green Angel — GMT

You only need 1 army to play. How does buying all the armies open up the game for you? A silly arguement, and a deflection from the point and main arguement. The 40Kgame does not involve having all armies, it is having an army and playing against other people who have armies. Saying you need all the armies is ridiculous and a sleazy attempt to divert a lost cause...that is saying GW figures are overpriced.

You fail to address the fact that Warmachine figures, per figure, are priced as much or almost as much as GW ones. You need fewer Warmachine figures, which makes the game overall cost less, but then, no one says you have to play 40K at 2000 points.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

is warmachine played as much as GW? Not in the UK its not. GW is the main provider of these sort of games in the UK. They have no competition here so they can charge what they like. If there was more competition here they would change there prices. Dont say that they have comp in the US as the GW prices are made here not over there.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

@ Green Angel yeah your rights its not about having all the armies for 40K. thats like saying buy your PS3 and just play the same game for the next couple of years. Most people I know and game with have atleast 3 armies min. Even the kids that come to the store change armies atleast oncde evry4-6months. But Obviously thats not expensive.

I agree if you never change your army then figure by figure its not that expensive but the whole hobby is geared towrds buyeing more mini and updating armies

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Wayfarer — GMT

I don't know why people argue about price. People will ALWAYS complain about prices being high in every aspect of life and nothing you do or say, even lower prices, will change their minds.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

KnightoNi1894 — GMT

[quote]Posted By Green Angel on 11/19/2006 3:42 PM

[/quote]

Space Marines cost between $3.50 and $10 per model.

Yes, tactical marines are a "good deal" at $3.50 each, but that's where the "good deal" stops. Regular scouts cost $4.00 each. Assault Marines and scouts with sniper rifles, cost $5. per model. The command squad and veteran squad come in at $7.00 per model. Devistators are $7.50 per model. Terminators of all kinds cost $10 per model. That puts the average cost for infantry at $7.36 per model.

Cygnar... Long gunners are $3.66 per model, Trenchers and Gun Magese are $4.17 per model, Sword Knights are $5 per model, and Storm Blades and Storm Guard are $6.17 per model. Averaging that out gives you 4.89 per model.

Therefore, you have a smaller price range for WARMACHINE models, a lower average for per model price, and a lower model count required for WARMACHINE over 40k. These are all based on the boxed set costs. It's actually less for the blisters in WARMACHINE where 40k blisters cost more...

In the end, you'll spend as much as you want/are willing to spend on whichever game is your preference. I couldn't stand the rules for 40k. While the Eldar stuff looks really cool, I look at the price that it'll cost for me to get back into 40k and realise that I could buy everything in my chosen factions for the same price. I'll stick with WARMACHINE/HORDES with its much cleaner rules set, it's much better company and its much lower price.

Knight

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Frazzled — GMT

[quote]Posted By beef on 11/17/2006 6:28 PM
DO you have a crack addiction? What other hobby or unnecessary thing do you spend money on that is more expensive than GW products? I waste alot on other things aswell that are not basic necessaties but lets not kid ourselves GW is overpriced. I dont however complain about it (its just a fact) I buy it cos I am an addict (GW products not Crack)[/quote]
Target shooting. Skeet shooting. Both of those are more (but don't tell the wife!!!). Golf would be considerably more as well, as would martial arts or dancing the tango with the missus.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

keezus — GMT

[quote]

How do you address the fact that other company's miniatures are comparably priced to GW's? Warmachine figures cost more per figure then GW's, barring characters.

The Cygnar Thunderhead Heavy Warjack costs 35.99 on the Warstore site.

Plastic droppods are coming.

[/quote]

The Cygnar Thunderhead is a unique jack. Which means you only need (and can ever have) one in your army. It is also comparable in size to the new SM Venerable Dreadnought.

The key difference in Warmachine / Hordes vs GW product is that:

GW: If you are tired of the way your existing units play and want something totally different, you can:

Buy a new army ($500+) - Any non-stock armies generally approach the $1000 mark. (i.e. bikes, all mounted, all tanks, infantry horde etc.)

Privateer: If you are tired of the way your existing units play and want something totally different, you can:

Buy a new army ($200+) - Any infantry heavy armies generally approach the $500 mark.
-or-
Buy a new commander ($10)

The ability to change your army's playstyle by swapping its leader is a huge advantage and keeps the game interesting.

Finally: The talk about plastic drop pods is like the talk of a plastic waveserpent... all through 3rd edition... I'll believe it when I see it.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

beef — GMT

yeah just like the plastice baneblades and all the other stuff we were supposed to ghet.

RE: Interesting GW pricing mentality

Hellfury — GMT

“Well plastic is expensive...”

~ Gavin Thorpe on defending his decision to make all warhammer models from retiring employees, after games workshops huge losses in 2005

“Hey main, I can get you cocaine for cheaper than a pack of plastic soldiers!”

~ Tony Montana on Warhammer 40K

More for the real deal on 40K
uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40k