http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
[quote]Hi folks, another day, another dollar Look what tidbits fell into our little news-hungry hands for you guys to enjoy...

Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

[/quote]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282406.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282407.page GMT If this is true, it pretty much puts the kibosh on godzilla nids, nu?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282408.page GMT LOL at non-Infantry troops not scoring. That should stick it to those 'Pure Ravenwing' fellas

So that rules out Eldar Jetbikes, Blood Angel jump inf, Hormagaunts, Ork Warbikes as troops, which others?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282412.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282413.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282415.page GMT GW in awhile.

~Logic]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282417.page GMT
what about the wasted option of the shuricats on the wraithlord's hands. Yeah... I am going to forgo shooting this star canon for a shuricat... riiiiiight. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282418.page GMT
what about the wasted option of the shuricats on the wraithlord's hands. Yeah... I am going to forgo shooting this star canon for a shuricat... riiiiiight. [/quote]

Hahaha!

Maybe they will count as 'defensive weapons' ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282420.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282422.page GMT BS method of determining accuracy, but with a 'miss' no longer disappearing into thin air.

I have to say I quite like it. It panders to the "omg it's not 'realistic' " crowd a bit, but I can't complain.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282427.page GMT "Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn. "

WTF? This will not only make Nidzilla players pretty angry (the carnifex kit is sold enough, eh?), but make MC's (also wraithlords) pretty sub par to tanks or am I wrong on this one?

Greets
Schepp himself]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282438.page GMT KPs! So GW does have some common sense. I'm pleasantly surprised.

The MC thing is ridiculous, though. One would think 5th already had enough changes to screw nidzilla (VCs sucking against vehicles, only Troops scoring), but I guess GW thought otherwise. That even Wraithlords, which were nowhere near overpowered in 4th, take a hit is also unfortunate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282442.page GMT
Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.



[/quote][/quote]

o_O

Holy crapmonkeys of doom, that's bad news for my Boyz.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282445.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282453.page GMT Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.
[/quote]

HO-LEE-GAWD! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282466.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282466.page GMT D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit. [/quote]

My first reaction was, "Great, now that Dakka Fex pie plate's going to be hitting all the time." Then I saw this:

[quote]Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.[/quote]

And suddenly things don't seem so bad. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282468.page GMT
MCs only firing 1 weapon per turn? Possible but unlikely. We've already seen the leaked PDF that said otherwise. I'm sure they want to nerf Nidzilla, but it just doesn't sit right.

And 4+ terrain for *everything*? I've heard of streamlining, but there's no way they'll do this. No way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282470.page GMT "Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn. "

WTF? This will not only make Nidzilla players pretty angry (the carnifex kit is sold enough, eh?)[/quote]

Too frickin' bad for them, guess they'll have to go out and get an army that requires a bit of skill now....

If you knew ANYTHING about this hobby in general and the practices of GW, you [b][u]KNEW[/b][/u] that the army was going to be hit hard eventually when you were buying all those dakkafexes....you [b][u]KNEW[/b][/u] this! I dont feel the LEAST bit sorry for Nidzilla players, not even the least bit.

...as far as eldar players, so the wraithlord got hit, big deal, we've still got awesome reapers, Walkers (that now get a 4+ cover save) Prisms, and Falcons(they're STILL good, just not AS good).

(laughs since Nidzilla is so gay and unfluffy anyway)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282471.page GMT
MCs only firing 1 weapon per turn? Possible but unlikely. We've already seen the leaked PDF that said otherwise. I'm sure they want to nerf Nidzilla, but it just doesn't sit right.

And 4+ terrain for *everything*? I've heard of streamlining, but there's no way they'll do this. No way.[/quote]

I dont see why not. In AT-43 everything gets a 5+ cover save if behind cover, even AFV's.

If the squad or AFV behind cover uses the "Take cover" combat drill, they now get a 3+ cover save.

It works rather well really. Why sit there and argue about the quality of cover. Cover is as cover does, momma always said.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282473.page GMT GW.

I am playing Nids and i have exactly two Carnifexes in my army. Those needed to be optimized for ranged fire, because at least something in my army list had to be effective in order to balance the trash i have in my list for style reasons (Biovores, etc.).

It was a special feature in the rule book and even the codex said so, so there was no reason not to take two guns on a Carnifex.
The problem with Godzilla is not the fact, that an individual MC is so good, it is that you can have 8 of them.
GW again totally missed the point, didn't adress the real problem, pissed of players of balanced armies and even managed to create enough fallout to affect other races (Wraithlords for Eldars).
The solution would have been to get rid of Elite Carnifexes, not totally f*ck up existing and balanced Carnifex configurations.

Screw GW, i am outta here. I will find myself a FoW group. There i can be sure, that i will be able to use my Sherman models in 3rd edition...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282477.page GMT GW.

I am playing Nids and i have exactly two Carnifexes in my army. Those needed to be optimized for ranged fire, because at least something in my army list had to be effective in order to balance the trash i have in my list for style reasons (Biovores, etc.).

It was a special feature in the rule book and even the codex said so, so there was no reason not to take two guns on a Carnifex.
The problem with Godzilla is not the fact, that an individual MC is so good, it is that you can have 8 of them.
GW again totally missed the point, didn't adress the real problem, pissed of players of balanced armies and even managed to create enough fallout to affect other races (Wraithlords for Eldars).

Screw GW, i am outta here.[/quote]

Guess what, if you're into Tyranid Fluff, 'Nids are SUPPOSED to be a horde army with tons of little 'uns, and some big 'uns accompanying them. While there might be the occasional attack of primarily big ones, this isnt the norm. This problem is now addressed without having to write an entire new codex.

You've got a whole army yet you're THAT upset about 2-4 models (possilby including the tyrants?) in the whole army getting adversly effected? You need to step back and look at the rules as a whole and not just how your big monsters got effected, with the new cover rules, tyranids can exploit much.

Big bugs getting it up the pooper when it comes to shooting is a sorry reason to quit a hobby, but whatever. Apparently you werent that dedicated in the first place, so it's not that much a loss to GW anyway. You wont be missed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282479.page GMT WYSIWYG), that i converted, so the strangler/VC combination doesn't look like crap? And for no other reason than GW screwing up with the Nid codex, because they wanted to sell Carnifex models and now have sold enough?
Sorry, the problem is not only about those 2 models, it is about the way how GW treats its customers and game system. They use a sledgehammer, where a scalpel is needed. I no longer want to be part of this game, where you are expected to take shit like that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282480.page GMT
2. If you want them to be more effective, simply change the limbs...it really isnt that difficult.

3. Stop crying

AND/OR

3.5- Vote with your wallet and quit, nobody feels sorry for you. (except silly big bug players)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282483.page GMT
2. If you want them to be more effective, simply change the limbs...it really isnt that difficult.

3. Stop crying

AND/OR

3.5- Vote with your wallet and quit, nobody feels sorry for you.

[/quote]

Actually I do feel sort of bad for the Nid players like him who took two (admittedly very good) Carnifex's in Heavy to do anti-tank duty with a VC/BS combo.

That's almost $100 in models, plus the time spent to paint & base them, and now the configuration has gone out the window in a few strokes of the pen.

Granted it fills the one glaring weakness in the Nid list, and it fills it so very well and so efficiently that I can understand people being upset about such an obvious and easy answer being available in the book...but that's still a good unit choice that can be used in a balanced and fluffy army and now people are screwed out of almost $100 worth of models that they will have to either modify and re-paint, use and waste points on, or just not use the models again.

That Sucks, and all to stop Dakka Fex's. What a bad way to do things. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282485.page GMT
1. My models are legal, but they are extremely ineffective and overcosted now.

2. I CONVERTED my models. Why should i be forced to destroy the work i have put into it, just because GW says so? Bad example, but do you paint over the Mona Lisa, if the museum director wants to have a more sexy face on it?

3. Why? I voice my opinion. You don't like it, maybe you should ignore it. Nobody forced you to reply to my post.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282486.page GMT LOS. I frikkin HATED that infinitely tall stand of trees. It annoyed me. However, the bit about shooting through 2" of cover seems a little goofy. Why would a guy in the open get a cover save because [i]you[/i] are shooting through 2" of cover? Makes no sense.

I can't say I mind the MC only shooting one weapon. I never took more than a single Bright Lance or Star Cannon on my Wraithlord anyway. Well, I took a flamer/shuri-cat combo, but I was so rarely in range to shoot them that it's a moot point.

I don't like the bit about only [i]infantry[/i] troop choices counting as scoring units. That's kinda dumb. It takes away some of the strengths that make units worthwhile. For instance, Guardian Jetbikes. Their strength is in their mobility over other Guardians. Not being 'scoring' almost makes them worthless to bring at the cost they come with. I see this as another case of a chronic Games Workshop problem.
"Let's make a rule, then we'll make rules to counter our original rule."

Also:

[quote=Deadshane1]so it's not that much a loss to GW anyway. You wont be missed.[/quote]

Ow... Harsh.


Ghidorah]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282489.page GMT Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

WOOT! Time to dust off the other two monoliths!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282490.page GMT Actually I do feel sort of bad for the Nid players like him who took two (admittedly very good) Carnifex's in Heavy to do anti-tank duty with a VC/BS combo.

That's almost $100 in models, plus the time spent to paint & base them, and now the configuration has gone out the window in a few strokes of the pen.

Granted it fills the one glaring weakness in the Nid list, and it fills it so very well and so efficiently that I can understand people being upset about such an obvious and easy answer being available in the book...but that's still a good unit choice that can be used in a balanced and fluffy army and now people are screwed out of almost $100 worth of models that they will have to either modify and re-paint, use and waste points on, or just not use the models again.

That Sucks, and all to stop Dakka Fex's. What a bad way to do things. [/quote]

...but he ISNT screwed out of 100 bucks in models, that's my point.

If he's that concerned with his creation that he doesnt want to mess up his paint job or break the limbs off, fine, gaming isnt that important to you when you consider your crafting of the model...leave it as is and play a sub-par 'fex, its legal.

If gaming tactics are foremost, bust that extra gun off and put some talons on it. It's easy, and lots of people out there will just GIVE you the bits to do it....even I would...for free if I had them, and I dont even feel sorry for him.

Yes, stop dakkafexs, they're crap. Amend the rules so that NO codex can do the same in the futur building a tactic around High Str and rerolls when none are needed. (guided wraithlords with shuricannon and scatterlaser at doomed units) ...do you really need rerolls to wound when the str is so high? I dont think so, and building a list around that seems like the cheapest of tactics. Thats why noone needs to act surprised that this has happened. It's not balanced, monstrous creatures have BIG guns, they've nerfed basic walker shooting, is it really that surprising that Monstrous Creatures can only shoot one weapon now? When I think of a big burly creature/daemon, your average guardsman isnt afraid of him because he's going to get shot....he's afraid to be eaten "Gamorean Guard" style by some Rancor! THAT is what monstrous creatures are for....NOT shooting. The rules reflect that now. Its not about Nids losing firepower, its about the "character" of a Monstrous Creature...what they're supposed to do in-game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282492.page GMT MC's total in your list.
[quote=Stingray_tm]
1. My models are legal, but they are extremely ineffective and overcosted now.

2. I CONVERTED my models. Why should i be forced to destroy the work i have put into it, just because GW says so? Bad example, but do you paint over the Mona Lisa, if the museum director wants to have a more sexy face on it?[/quote]

Noone is forcing you to buy new models, but this hobby is entertainment, entertainment frequently requires you to throw money at it to continue to be entertained. Were you complaining this much when you had to buy a new playstation or xbox after they made improvements and created a new advanced console in the newest version? Did you complain every time a new LotR movie cam out? It's the same thing. If you want to enjoy this hobby to the utmost, you cannot expect to spend your money, and then be done. Never again having to spend money....you're not really that daft I'm sure.

[quote=Stingray_tm]
3. Why? I voice my opinion. You don't like it, maybe you should ignore it. Nobody forced you to reply to my post.[/quote]

And I'm voicing MY opinion.....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282497.page GMT
That Sucks, and all to stop Dakka Fex's. What a bad way to do things. [/quote]

Agreed. A better way to fix it would be to errata the nid codex until a V5 nid codex is printed.

I know that wont happen, but it is easier than an across the board nerf bat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282499.page GMT GW is just making MC's what they're supposed to be...

CC terrors that CAN shoot. Not shooters that are more effective out of CC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282502.page GMT
Makes alot of sense actually.

Your still shooting through an obstacle. Hence the chance that the target may receive a cover save.

I am beginning to wonder if the guy who sent that Email to the D6 Generation really did know what they were talking about when he said that GW was looking through other companies rules for good ideas for 5th ed 40K.

Because this is done in two other fairly popular wargames that are still being published and the people who play those games dont seem to have a problem in the slightest with how cover works in this way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282503.page GMT
I am beginning to wonder if the guy who sent that Email to the D6 Generation really did know what they were talking about when he said that GW was looking through other companies rules for good ideas for 5th ed 40K.

Because this is done in two other fairly popular wargames that are still being published and the people who play those games dont seem to have a problem in the slightest with how cover works in this way.[/quote]

How about that....

Andy Chambers is still writing the rules! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282504.page GMT LotR movie cam out? It's the same thing. If you want to enjoy this hobby to the utmost, you cannot expect to spend your money, and then be done. Never again having to spend money....you're not really that daft I'm sure.
[/quote]

New console versions are, you know, actually upgraded. If MS/sony decided to just fry all the current consoles who are hooked up online, forcing the owners to buy a new system, you'd have a better comparison. It wouldn't have to fry the whole system; just give the user less satisfaction like the MC change does. And here I'll expect people to say MS forces you to do this annually with the 360's red ring.

[quote]Its not about Nids losing firepower, its about the "character" of a Monstrous Creature...what they're supposed to do in-game. [/quote]

Thank you for telling us what Monstrous Creatures are supposed to do. As I recall, GW decided to make them shooty monsters of death - at least temporarily. I'm sorry if that didn't fit with your idea of what a monstrous creature does.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282505.page GMT GW invalidating entire armies with changes to the general rules? How does this surprise anyone?

On the bright side however, atleast they're not blowing smoke up our asses like they did with 4th Ed, promising how our armies would remain valid and wouldn't have to be changed, yadda, yadda, yadda.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282509.page GMT D6 Generation really did know what they were talking about when he said that GW was looking through other companies rules for good ideas for 5th ed 40K.[/quote]Turnabout would be fair play, wouldn't it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282512.page GMT D6 Generation really did know what they were talking about when he said that GW was looking through other companies rules for good ideas for 5th ed 40K.[/quote]Turnabout would be fair play, wouldn't it?[/quote]


I suppose it might.

I could split hairs over that, but after thinking about it in the grand scheme of things, all I want is a competent rules set for the dollies I love to move around the table. I really don't care how it happens, so long as it does.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282516.page GMT New console versions are, you know, actually upgraded. If MS/sony decided to just fry all the current consoles who are hooked up online, forcing the owners to buy a new system, you'd have a better comparison. It wouldn't have to fry the whole system; just give the user less satisfaction like the MC change does. And here I'll expect people to say MS forces you to do this annually with the 360's red ring.[/quote]

...and possibly the "more satisfaction" you're talking about is Monstrous Creatures and the effect they have on the game being adjusted as a part of making the entire game to run smoother and more fairly. Hence, an improvement overall.

Thats another way of looking at it. One that big bug players are blind to, since their 'easy' army is no longer so 'easy' to play.
[quote=stonefox]
Thank you for telling us what Monstrous Creatures are supposed to do.[/quote]

You're welcome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282521.page GMT Thats another way of looking at it. One that big bug players are blind to, since their 'easy' army is no longer so 'easy' to play.
[/quote]

Er... Once again, i DO NOT PLAY NIDZILLA. My army is NOT EASY TO PLAY. I am using Warriors, Biovores and Lictors. And still i complain about this stupid new rule. Not because it nerfs Nidzilla (which is a good thing) but because it nerfs my BALANCED army and it was neither the only nor the best way to nerf Nidzilla.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282525.page GMT Thats another way of looking at it. One that big bug players are blind to, since their 'easy' army is no longer so 'easy' to play.
[/quote]

Er... Once again, i DO NOT PLAY NIDZILLA. My army is NOT EASY TO PLAY. I am using Warriors, Biovores and Lictors. And still i complain about this stupid new rule. Not because it nerfs Nidzilla (which is a good thing) but because it nerfs my BALANCED army and it was neither the only nor the best way to nerf Nidzilla.[/quote]

Settle down, I wasnt referring to you specifically.

You DID know that you arent the only 'Nid player out there didnt you? There are lots of players that play specifically Zilla lists, those are the peeps I was referring to. I'm not trying to PICK on you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282529.page GMT MCs specializes them for shooting, because you need to specialize with Nids.

And if i complain about the nerf, your answer is: "Nidzilla deserfs it", totally ignoring my points, that balanced players are getting nerfed aswell and that there are better solutions to the problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282534.page GMT
[url]http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img460672c9a83ae.jpg[/url]

and if you got this kind painting skill ,I doubt you would say it's easy to pull off a arm and just repaint it or sth.

and you hate nids zilla list ,ok . I dont lilke it either, but you dont paint a single carnifex or tyrant do you ? you dont play a single one of them do you? and how could you just imagine every nids player who's brought a zilla to his list is some kind fXXk up powergamer? deserve nothing but crapy rules ?

and why should every player play the fluff that way ? especially that's just someone's imagination ,why cant people use their own imaginations to build their own army?

so plz if you see someone's feeling got hurt ,dont laugh at or clap ok?


btw, I knew they would nerf zilla some day ,so I made my fex's arm changeable

[url]http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img4606775de0b3c.jpg[/url]

but just feel sorry for other nids player,who spent tones of time to convert and paint a gunfex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282536.page GMT GW is just making MC's what they're supposed to be...

CC terrors that CAN shoot. Not shooters that are more effective out of CC.[/quote]

Except that Carnifexes aren't CC terrors unless you kit them out a LOT for CC. The point remains that you fix army lists by fixing army lists and not amending main rules. But as we all know, it's *bizarrely* easier for GW to change the main rules than to change an army list.

Honestly, I'll still probably give them two guns, or none at all. If you take a VC or BS Carnifex for ranged support, how much benefit is a set of scything talons? You might as well take a set of devourers in case a different type of target presents itself. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282537.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282539.page GMT
[/quote]

You guys are acting like you're the only ones ever to have lost well painted units to rules changes, I've got news for you....

You arent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282540.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282545.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282547.page GMT
and if you got this kind painting skill ,I doubt you would say it's easy to pull off a arm and just repaint it or sth.[/quote] I do, and I do.
[quote=ED209]

and you hate nids zilla list ,ok . I dont lilke it either, but you dont paint a single carnifex or tyrant do you ? you dont play a single one of them do you? and how could you just imagine every nids player who's brought a zilla to his list is some kind fXXk up powergamer? deserve nothing but crapy rules ?[/quote]
Actually, I've painted two FULL tyranid armies in the past, I know your pain. This is all 'crying' plain and simple. If you know anything about GW's practices, you know that rules will change and certain selections will become sub-par or even unusable. Get used to it, or dont, and simply quit playing.
[quote=ED209]

so plz if you see someone's feeling got hurt ,dont laugh at or clap ok?[/quote]

instead I'm supposed to boo-hoo for them when my own tanks cannot move and shoot all of their str 6 and below weapons. (my pred destructors in my DA army) Negative. You deal with new rulesets and adjust your play style, its part of this hobby. Get over yourselves. You dont hear me crying, am I disappointed? Sure I am, but its the nature of the beast. I'm not going to threaten to quit the hobby yet keep posting negative comments online. If I got as upset as some people about these rule (not necessarily singling YOU out here stingray), I'd be gone....without a peep here. Just vanish.

[quote=ED209]


but just feel sorry for other nids player,who spent tones of time to convert and paint a gunfex.[/quote]

Nope, since I also spend tons of time painting well painted models that rules change on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282549.page GMT GW invalidating entire armies with changes to the general rules? How does this surprise anyone?

On the bright side however, atleast they're not blowing smoke up our asses like they did with 4th Ed, promising how our armies would remain valid and wouldn't have to be changed, yadda, yadda, yadda.

BYE[/quote]

Give them a little while. I'm sure that will come.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282552.page GMT MC's could not shoot two weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282553.page GMT
It's whining. Period. None of this is going to ruin the game.

Discussion is fine, disagreeing with rules changes is fine, but give me a REAL reason why you disagree. Complaining that rules are wrong because people are now going to have to change their army lists is whining. That has nothing at all to do with whether or not the rules are more balanced or better. It's whining that you have to spend more money on your entertainment. Something that all of us here do.

My "suck it up and deal" attitude is actually spot on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282559.page GMT
And it is a valid reason to complain about changing MODELS (not an army list MODELS), especially if you can think of another solution, that gets done what was supposed to be achieved, WITHOUT having these changes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282561.page GMT oops so you are not as happy as your Avatar shows , then my bad ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282567.page GMT
And it is a valid reason to complain about changing MODELS (not an army list MODELS), especially if you can think of another solution, that gets done what was supposed to be achieved, WITHOUT having these changes.[/quote]

I'm not 'whining' that people are whining, I'm making fun of them....there is a difference.

Is it valid if the rules on the whole are more balanced and fair? I dont think so. The tyranid codex is hit hardest by this rules change, that is for the sake of the game as a WHOLE. Sorry you have to change up your armies, but we have a more balanced game now. Sure this is a dicey claim, but it makes sense assuming that it was the INTENT. If monstrous creatures firing two weapons was considered by the designers as unneeded or unbalancing, it makes sense to change the rule. Perhaps the MC players dont agree (not surprising), but the "I have to change my army now" arguement has [b]NOTHING[/b] to do with game balance or fairness. Give me a real reason why they should have kept it the way it was....and "Tyranids need it for their shooting game" wont work, there have been competetive 'Nid armies around for years, and many of them dont have MC's wielding two ranged weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282571.page GMT
[url]http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img460672c9a83ae.jpg[/url]

and if you got this kind painting skill ,I doubt you would say it's easy to pull off a arm and just repaint it or sth.

and you hate nids zilla list ,ok . I dont lilke it either, but you dont paint a single carnifex or tyrant do you ? you dont play a single one of them do you? and how could you just imagine every nids player who's brought a zilla to his list is some kind fXXk up powergamer? deserve nothing but crapy rules ?

and why should every player play the fluff that way ? especially that's just someone's imagination ,why cant people use their own imaginations to build their own army?

so plz if you see someone's feeling got hurt ,dont laugh at or clap ok?


btw, I knew they would nerf zilla some day ,so I made my fex's arm changeable

[url]http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics11/img4606775de0b3c.jpg[/url]

but just feel sorry for other nids player,who spent tones of time to convert and paint a gunfex.[/quote]

I'm not seeing the terrible tragedy for VC/BS gunfexes just yet anyway? AV14, shooting the BS at it is kind of meh. A unit of Boyz, shooting the VC at it is kind of meh and you just got a nice boost to your strangler.

Opentopped vehicles the VC isn't so bad either?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282572.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282574.page GMT MC change because we don't know what the context is yet.

Can Monstrous Creatures fire both weapons if they stand still?

The problem with these rumors is that they are just cursory glances at the rule book. The -1 no argument cover rule is a prime example that complaining about a rule taken out of context is pointless.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282576.page GMT HS carnis are converted so that there's a gun on each side, with proper feeder tubes and everything. Lots of finnicky work to change them.

The thing I'm most worried about is the scoring units thing: (Only infantry troop units? Screw ravenwing, Saim-hann, etc.) I really, really, really hope that its "infantry OR troops.

The skimmer cover save thing is disturbing as well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282578.page GMT
Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.



[/quote][/quote]

o_O

Holy crapmonkeys of doom, that's bad news for my Boyz.[/quote]


Yeah, but think about how many Mega Blasters you can get in an Ork army.

In fact, check out the cost of the Mega Blaster upgrade on a Death Kopta.

If this rumor is true with only 1d6 inches - BS deviation, and Ork Mega Blasta army could be really interesting...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282614.page GMT MC cant shoot two weapons ,then what's left for the nids? some warriors + hormagaunts ? oh I forget horma even cant score now ,hahahaha that's what you called fluff right, and also much more blance .good point.


@Halfpast_Yellow the BS is just an addition to fex's anti-tank ability ,Zilla nidz deal Horde with dakka fex or dakka tyrant, for the horde nidz they are point by point beaten by orks. now we let the gunfex do both jobs and with nerfed Vcannon .
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282621.page GMT
Guess what, if you're into Tyranid Fluff, 'Nids are SUPPOSED to be a horde army with tons of little 'uns, and some big 'uns accompanying them. While there might be the occasional attack of primarily big ones, this isnt the norm. This problem is now addressed without having to write an entire new codex.

You've got a whole army yet you're THAT upset about 2-4 models (possilby including the tyrants?) in the whole army getting adversly effected? You need to step back and look at the rules as a whole and not just how your big monsters got effected, with the new cover rules, tyranids can exploit much.
[/quote]

Read the fluff. Then read the codex. The read your post.

I do not play a 'zilla list, I also have two carnifex models in my army, one of which has one ranged weapon.
I still think that one weapon rule is bunk.

Huge monster armies are actually at least 1/3 of most Hive Fleets' assualt - by fluff. The little guys are there in waves too, but that is not the only thing Tyranids do, or countering them would be simple.

That said, the scoring unit thing is really going to hurt worse.
Hormagaunts are calvary, gaunts are fodder that need synapse to hold anything (without a 5+ fail on 2d6), rippers cannot hold, leaving basically genestealers.

So stealer shock backed with the slightly modded MC list is not changing. Just means that the troops are the only thing that matter. EC ftw.

Odd to think that in any game with objectives any given genestealer is more important than every Hive Tyrant - lol.

rarrr]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282623.page GMT
Also, it looks like I'm gonna start taking some more Plasma Cannons!

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282631.page GMT
Mech Eldar is dead. Long live Mech Eldar!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282635.page GMT Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit. [/quote]

Oh yeah! Last I heard it was going to scatter 2d6...not 1d6! With 1.5 blast templates and partials hitting auto....marines only miss on a 6!

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/100_3119.jpg[/img]
[b]'Hear that boys? We don't suck anymore!'[/b]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282646.page GMT
In fact, check out the cost of the Mega Blaster upgrade on a Death Kopta.

If this rumor is true with only 1d6 inches - BS deviation, and Ork Mega Blasta army could be really interesting...[/quote]

Sorry to pop your cherry my 'fresh face flower picking eldar youth' but Mega Blastas are not a 'Blast' weapon even though their title might suggest otherwise.

(sorry i couldn't resist your user rank )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282650.page GMT
In fact, check out the cost of the Mega Blaster upgrade on a Death Kopta.

If this rumor is true with only 1d6 inches - BS deviation, and Ork Mega Blasta army could be really interesting...[/quote]

Sorry to pop your cherry my 'fresh face flower picking eldar youth' but Mega Blastas are not a 'Blast' weapon even though their title might suggest otherwise.

(sorry i couldn't resist your user rank )[/quote]



This is what happens when you take 3 years off from miniature gaming...You lose your finely honed edge...course, could be senility setting in, but I digress.

I was so dazzled by all the new Ork gear to notice they removed the blast from the Mega Blasta. Yup, that's my excuse.

So much for that plan...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282665.page GMT All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.[/quote]

OK, tho this simplification is probably excessive. IMO, 40k has too many coin flips. I'd have been much happier to see 40k split things into 3+ (good) and 5+ (so-so).

[quote]Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.[/quote]

I don't understand why we haven't seen the preorder announcement for the official GW-approved Warhammer 40k Targeter (laser pointer). If this is going to be the rule, then we're going to need the tool.

[quote]Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.[/quote]

Wow. Blasts just got a *lot* more accurate. You roll a Hit 1/3 of the time, and the remaining 2/3 has average scatter of 3.5", so even IG will score hits almost 3/4 of the time.

[quote]Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".[/quote]

Looks like this takes care of Tau & Eldar grav tanks. Tau gotta hug cover, so they're basically gunships. Eldar gotta move or die, so they're basically pure, expensive Transports.

[quote]Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.[/quote]

Pity. The idea that all non-Vehicle Troops picks would be better, as it's clear and simple.

I wonder if Daemons and Allied Inquisitional Troops would count...

Eldar are definitely going to need a rework to have more Troops picks and even cheaper Transports for them if this goes through. Lucky for them that they get a new Codex every edition.

[quote]Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.[/quote]

Nids are going to need rework, too.
______

OK, the clarifications are really helpful. Yay.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282737.page GMT MCs in general, and Nid MC's in particular, were a bit overpowered. Now, in typical GW fashion they will nerf the living hell out of them (ask any Marine player with 5 Rhinos how that feels) until they're never seen again. Seriously, does it make any sense to have MCs fire two weapons on the move when Tanks and Dreads can't?

I think that with the run rule, Close combat fexes are now at least possible, if not exactly strong.

The exact line of sight thing could get wierd.... what if you move a tree to get a unit into a forest? I'm sure time will work it out, but it'll take some getting used to. I swear I still run into people that don't understand area terrain, and now we're geting rid of it.

Nobody used blast, now blast gets awesome. Is anybody suprised? Missile launcher Devs are now even more of a must have, as are arguably Plasma cannons.

the skimmer thing is harsh, pure and simple. Every skimmer in the game was costed (sometimes undercosted) with SMF in mind. If they're now slow and fragile, they're not that good (hey, just like regular vehicles in 4th! Thanks folks, I'll be here all week." ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282749.page GMT WLs in 4th, but if each of those are catching a nerf perhaps indirect fire is a newly-viable option. Combined with the Troops shakeup and Run! making Wraithguard better, I think I'll be doing some yellow painting in the near future...

Thank god KPs are out (if we can trust these rumors). That is encouraging. I've been convinced that the casualty removal rules won't be that bad (still slow...grumble...), and the LOS stuff looks different but interesting. These parts of the core rules may be a success.

However, nerfing first walkers, then MCs- looks like the nerf bat is being swung by a blind man this time 'round. 'Nidzilla was effectively fixed by the scoring changes already. I'm beginning to wonder if GW playtest outside the developers' immediate circle of friends at all. This really is shaping up to be an assault edition, it looks like. That irks me, as shooting is (for most armies) a more intersting dynamic in an I-go-you-go turn based game like 40K. CC is such a slog, and now it's going to be even more of a majority-rules, overly bland exercise in running at the objective and standing there.

Scoring units- Ravenwing aren't going to be a competitive force anymore in tourneys, nor Saim-Hann, sadly. But any local gaming group that wouldn't house-rule that bikes should score for those armies must be populated by total tools.

Finally, Deadshane- stop smugly belittling the concerns of others who worry (quite rightly) that their carefully collected armies are going to get screwed by the rules changes. Some people are indeed whining, but not so much on this thread, and Stingray wasn't. If you want to be smug, do it over the gaming table. I would be happy to wipe the smile off your face at the Vegas GT or any west-coast tourney (gaming, not real violence). Oh, and more importantly, this is a rules rumor discussion. You aren't contributing anything of worth with personal attacks. Your grandstanding is a pretty obvious and infantile attention-grabbing tactic.

Oh, and read your fluff. You're giving your impression, but if you read all the Tyranid codexes (not just the current one, although it supports this), Desert Raiders, the accounts of the battle for Ultramar, etc. etc. there are many different types of swarm. Heavy assault swarms are common in the stages of planetary assault focussed on killing resisting organisms.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282753.page GMT
[quote]Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

[color=red]UPDATE: This 4+ cover save applies if you draw LoS through any other unit (friend of foe) other than your target. Normal terrain still has a standarized chart for things from hedges up to bunkers similar to 4th edition.[/color]

Line of Sight:
There are no height levels, all terrain is true LoS (even jungles and woods). They will need to be modeled appropriately if they are to block LoS.

Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

[color=red]UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target. [/color]

Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

[color=red]UPDATE: Skimmers do get their cover save if moving at Cruising speed or All-Out. [/color]

Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

[color=red]UPDATE: Killpoints are still in, in a limited fashion for one mission variant. You now score a single killpoint for each unit killed regardless of its FOC category. [/color]

Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.

[color=red]UPDATE: You must reroll the invulnerable save if it passed the first time, so perils is still dangerous. [/color]

Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

[color=red]UPDATE: The jury is still out for Monstrous Creatures firing. There are conflicting reports of their firing ability (either 1 weapon or all weapons)...[/color][/quote]

My opinion, is the conflicting reports is probably becuase there's truth to both (which is typical when there is conflicting rumors imho). I'd take a guess that MCs will be restricted similar to walkers and other vehicles: you can fire all weapons if you stay still or you can fire one on the move. Seems like the balanced solution in 5ed and would still nerf nidzilla and the dakka build a bit while still leaving nids only real antitank ability intact (sorry but gunfexes going away would make nids nearly unplayable against a vehicle heavy list).

I also think the mobile shooting is being nerfed a bit to balance the LOS changes. Consider now that your own troops provide cover saves so good firing lanes will be at a premium, being able to move and shoot to full affect in such an environment would be a pretty major advantage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282754.page GMT
Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282755.page GMT IG still be screwed? If we show up to play, and I have 25 units, and you have 10.... I mean, do the math. After unit #11 dies, I can't win, even if I wipe you out.

I'm calling shenanigans on that one. While IG is the redheaded step child of the big six (Marines, Chaos, Eldar, Orks, Nids, IG) there has to be one guy who realized how unfair it would be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282758.page GMT
Or it could simply presage a sea-change of the Imperial Guard Codex - units as Platoons rather than mere Squads, for example. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282762.page GMT Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.[/quote]

Wow. Blasts just got a *lot* more accurate. You roll a Hit 1/3 of the time, and the remaining 2/3 has average scatter of 3.5", so even IG will score hits almost 3/4 of the time. [/quote]

Yeah. Balances out mortars, grenade launchers and frag missiles nicely, but might overpower battlecannons, Earthshaker shots, and Prism templates for what they cost. Looks like blast templates are the new black in 5th.

[quote][quote]Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".[/quote]

Looks like this takes care of Tau & Eldar grav tanks. Tau gotta hug cover, so they're basically gunships. Eldar gotta move or die, so they're basically pure, expensive Transports. [/quote]

Agreed, but (at least the Eldar skimmers) have pretty much always been that way. Occasions for moving in slowly while shooting with Serpents are limited to armies that lack decent S7-8 massed fire. Once you dump your troops, though, you can go to using the Serpents/Falcons as gunships. It is the final comparative nail in the coffin of Falcons, though. I predict Serpent conversion bitz are going to get a lot more expensive on eBay.

[quote][quote]Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.[/quote]

Pity. The idea that all non-Vehicle Troops picks would be better, as it's clear and simple.

I wonder if Daemons and Allied Inquisitional Troops would count...

Eldar are definitely going to need a rework to have more Troops picks and even cheaper Transports for them if this goes through. Lucky for them that they get a new Codex every edition. [/quote]

Eldar will still be playable, as for everything that's getting nerfed, something is getting "unlocked" and is newly viable. Falcons, WLs and big jetbike units are out, Harlies downgraded. Wraithguard, Guardian mobs with Embolden, Serpents, possibly support platforms have all gotten better. It sucks to see our current configurations getting nerfed. But those of us who kept our 3rd ed. Guardian mobs around may find them useful again. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282763.page GMT
Eldar will still be playable, as for everything that's getting nerfed, something is getting "unlocked" and is newly viable. Falcons, WLs and big jetbike units are out, Harlies downgraded. Wraithguard, Guardian mobs with Embolden, Serpents, possibly support platforms have all gotten better. It sucks to see our current configurations getting nerfed. But those of us who kept our 3rd ed. Guardian mobs around may find them useful again. [/quote]

Yeah, I know, but Guardian mobs are really un-Fluffy for a dying race. These tweaks will be good incentive for me to focus on my IG for 5th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282766.page GMT
Enjoy nidzilla 2.0]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282767.page GMT
[quote=winterman]
Cover:
All cover is 4+
If you shooting through more than 2" of cover, then your target gets a cover save.
If there is a dispute about the majority being in or out of cover, thats when the cover save with the -1 comes in.

[color=red]UPDATE: This 4+ cover save applies if you draw LoS through any other unit (friend of foe) other than your target. Normal terrain still has a standarized chart for things from hedges up to bunkers similar to 4th edition.[/color][/quote]

Nice. That's a good balance.

[quote]
Blast Weapons:
Blast weapons don't roll to hit, but always scatter D6" minus the BS of the firer. ~Yikes, watch out for Dark Reaper Exarchs!
All models under a blast template (including partials) are automatically hit.

[color=red]UPDATE: The scatter distance is 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target. [/color][/quote]

Also much better. Hmm. Blast weapons will either be a big gamble of wildly effective. Shooting them anywhere near your own troops is much more dangerous, though. This is a good rule, and I'll cautiously say a surprising turn for the more realistic.

[quote]
Skimmers:
Skimmers only get cover saves if they move over 12".

[color=red]UPDATE: Skimmers do get their cover save if moving at Cruising speed or All-Out. [/color] [/quote]

Finally, we get a break. Sweet!

[quote]
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this). In any case it would appear that a pure Ravenwing army might have a hard time unless they draw a VP mission.
Killpoints are apparently out, being replaced by the standard VPs in certain missions.

[color=red]UPDATE: Killpoints are still in, in a limited fashion for one mission variant. You now score a single killpoint for each unit killed regardless of its FOC category. [/color] [/quote]

In a single mission, that's an interesting enhancement. Sure, it favors lower model-count amries with few units. but it's only one mission, and can be played around if neccessary. IT would have sucked to have to compensate for KPs in every mission.

[quote]
Perils of the Warp:
Perils now causes an automatic wound, but invulnerable saves are allowed.

[color=red]UPDATE: You must reroll the invulnerable save if it passed the first time, so perils is still dangerous. [/color] [/quote]

I'm sorry, were psykers too powerful? Apparently the game designers were thinking about 2nd edition, not the last two. This is going to get dropped in house rules in most clubs, I hope. In fact, maybe the silver lining of 5th is that it will encourage the widespread adoption of house rules, maybe even for some competitive settings. Sure would be nice to see the broken parts get fixed as an example to the rest of the gaming community, then passed around (hint hint).

[quote]
Monstrous Creatures:
Monstrous creatures now have the Move Through Cover USR instead of re-rolling the difficult terrain dice.
Monstrous creatures may only fire one weapon per turn.

[color=red]UPDATE: The jury is still out for Monstrous Creatures firing. There are conflicting reports of their firing ability (either 1 weapon or all weapons)...[/color]

My opinion, is the conflicting reports is probably because there's truth to both (which is typical when there is conflicting rumors imho). I'd take a guess that MCs will be restricted similar to walkers and other vehicles: you can fire all weapons if you stay still or you can fire one on the move. Seems like the balanced solution in 5ed and would still nerf nidzilla and the dakka build a bit while still leaving nids only real antitank ability intact (sorry but gunfexes going away would make nids nearly unplayable against a vehicle heavy list). [/quote]

Scoring and rending changes already would have balanced out the formerly-best Nidzilla builds. This is taking them into the negative zone.

[quote]I also think the mobile shooting is being nerfed a bit to balance the LOS changes. Consider now that your own troops provide cover saves so good firing lanes will be at a premium, being able to move and shoot to full affect in such an environment would be a pretty major advantage.[/quote]

Very good point. I think you've just found the core of a new design philosophy for 5th. That's always been a useful thing, but now it will be a major advantage. Units that have one big shot and high mobility (like Prisms) are getting a serious boost. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282769.page GMT
Or it could simply presage a sea-change of the Imperial Guard Codex - units as Platoons rather than mere Squads, for example. [/quote]

IG certainly isn't the Only one hurt by this, but I can distinguish the IG situation from say, dedicated transports. IG not only have to take multile units in their main troops choice, they also only have one unit that can be larger than 10 models (conscripts) only one unit over T3 (Ogryn), and only one model with a save greater than 4+ (Techpriest). So even if I wanted to field fewer, more point dense units, they would not be more durable. Again, you can make the arguement that this is balanced by the IG's ability to field more scoring units for quarters, but again i would distinguish by arguing that every army can take small, point light units, while IG is the only army that can't field large and/or durable units (conscripts not withstanding). Even DE can take 20 man Warrior squads, which are actually capable of damage aside from merely being large and scoring.

I don't think it's insurmountable for IG, especially since I think every IG army will no include 3 LRBTs or Demolishers sitting in cover, so there will be fewer platoons, but it's still kinda stinky.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282786.page GMT LOS. I frikkin HATED that infinitely tall stand of trees. It annoyed me. However, the bit about shooting through 2" of cover seems a little goofy. Why would a guy in the open get a cover save because [i]you[/i] are shooting through 2" of cover? Makes no sense.[/quote]

I am with you on the LOS thing, I really hate when the guy screen his landraider with a rhino!

Ask some of my Amry and Marine friends who have been in close fire fight in Iraq how a make shift blockade of wood palets, junk and a metal door, saved their skin from a hail of lead and even a grenade ( it hit the door )! They were in an ally with almost no where to go and were engagued by the enemy, both were 20 to 30 feet on either side of the blocakde when the ambush started no one got hit in the inital shooting as the rounds either missed claen or were stopped by the junk pile that and the enemy cant shoot so I hear.

Point is, any thing that is between you and your target can effect the path of your bullet. Some times it works some times it dont ( thats what the die roll is for ) but be sure that 2 inches of cover should have no problem giving you a chance of not taking a round in the chest.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282804.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282810.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282822.page GMT
I have to agree, the situation is hopelessly confused right now, possibly by intent. For all I know, someone is feeding some of these contradictory rumors into the community for kicks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282832.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282838.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282845.page GMT 2d6" minus BS, but if a "Hit" is rolled on the scatter-die it lands on target. [/quote]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/100_3119.jpg[/img]

[b]Nevermind boys, put your guns down. You still suck.[/b]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282847.page GMT
I had the same feeling. The new system, especially for my for BS3 models, means pretty much bugger all in the long run. A little under 50% of time, you'd end with a scatter of 0" to 1", the template's size being such that 2" scatter has a high likelihood of hitting empty space and 3" being right out. So all that's happening is that I get to roll 3 dice in lieu of one. Whoop-de-doo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282854.page GMT 2D6 if the attack model did move. If a collection of Blast weapons are used, then they fire a salvo like multiple barrages are currently handled. Furthermore, the idea that Blast markers will hit like Templates seems to be a well-credited rumour, so deviations of 1 or 2 inches won't be so crushing. Finally it seems that the wise men down in the Tactics forum have determined that Ork hordes like that of Redbeard will be the order of the day, meaning that your Devastators can probably close their eyes and shoot backwards between their own legs and still fragmetize a load of Orks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282861.page GMT
Nevermind, there's no 'to hit' roll apparently...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282863.page GMT IG folds like a lawn chair when subjected to their assault. I don't mind continuing to lose, I'd just rather lose by a furlong than a cable's length.

We'll see. I'll keep using GLs and MLs, and maybe one day, I'll get some use out of them :-D]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282867.page GMT BS-7), and then rolling direction for any misses with the distance being the die result (x1 for stationary, x2 for moving). Should be interesting to see what actually gets printed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282876.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282887.page GMT
BS 4
33% chance to hit off the top
If scatter, than 2d6. Template is 1.5 inches wide which means the largest dice roll allowed for a hit would be 5-6ish (Depending on placement)
Chances to roll under a 6 on 2d6 = 41.67%

99 shots, 33 hit auto (no scatter)
Of the 66 left, 27 will hit (Using 41% as above)
So 60 hits out of 90

So 66% of the time your blast will hit. Just like now (Math subject to review, I did it quick). Unless they change the pts...meh = |]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282895.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282896.page GMT
I believe I figured that in by taking the 1.5 template into account (IE with BS 4 you may scatter 5 inches and still get a hit). I even went up to 6 for clever placement (As 6 - BS 4 = 2 which would technically be a miss by template size)

Orks will hit roughly 51% of the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282903.page GMT
Two cold beers at the LVGT to the first person that models this up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/282937.page GMT
QFT]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283095.page GMT
QFT[/quote]

Awwww... did somebody get stomped by the big, bad bugs one too many times? Sounds like some delicate little feelings have been hurt. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283115.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283140.page GMT
QFT[/quote]

Awwww... did somebody get stomped by the big, bad bugs one too many times? Sounds like some delicate little feelings have been hurt. [/quote]

Maybe they were traumatized by the cloverfield monster.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283141.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283192.page GMT GT or any west-coast tourney (gaming, not real violence). Oh, and more importantly, this is a rules rumor discussion. You aren't contributing anything of worth with personal attacks. Your grandstanding is a pretty obvious and infantile attention-grabbing tactic.

[/quote]

Criticise MY grandstanding after posting some of your own....nice.

You do realise that gaming threats are the "most infantile" of all "attention grabbing" internet-rambo practices right? But yea, you got me, I'm afraid of your 40k manhood. I'll be the guy cowering in the corner at the Vegas GT in the presence of your awesome Nerd-power! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283194.page GMT
...I wonder what this will do for the players that enjoy the simplicity of using simply a peice of green felt on their tables to represent a woods terrain peice.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283196.page GMT
...I wonder what this will do for the players that enjoy the simplicity of using simply a peice of green felt on their tables to represent a woods terrain peice.

[/quote]

In no uncertain terms some people on this forum and others will tell them to buy the overpriced and fugly GW trees and to suck it up. The jacknapes who suggests that will then get offended when people complain about his attitude, and the dakka feeding cycle will continue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211018/283203.page