http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net IG like no other army. Oh don't get me wrong, I hate playing them, especially against marines, but for fluff and emphathy and modeling I love them.

The 3.5 edition codex has some crap in it. It needs some work but the freedom it offers and the diversity of doctrines really makes it great for creating new regiments differentiated by more than color schemes.

The 5th edition codex will no doubt take this away. It will offer some new toys though and might address some long standing problems.

So... do we want a new one?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283181.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283187.page GMT
Right now, IG options are extremely limited because there are so few units and combinations that "work" in the current Codex. The imbalance between "good" and "bad" is currently very high, so the army choices are very pigeon-holed to point that lists practically build themselves once you pick a couple starting things.

Despite the appearance of options, if 5th Edition moves forward with a push for Objectives to be taken by (Infantry?) Troops, the IG are totally screwed. Right now, the only semi-viable approach to taking Objectives would be via Drop Troops, and that's only because Drop Troops, as a Doctrine, is FREE. But when the enemy has the ability to Run, it is *not* a good thing to be a Guardsman standing in the open... Mechanized Guard, which should be a semi-default approach is so grossly overcosted and fragile as to be a non-starter here.

The IG need a major revamp in design. Guardsmen need to have points cost cut to no more than 5 pts/model. Guard need more Troops Platoon options (Grenadiers, Mechanized, Light Infantry). Chimera costs need to be cut drastically while bumping the side armor to 11+. Vehicles, while effective, are still overpriced. Guard needs decent Leadership, so Vox should be made "free". And so on.

Losing Doctrines is fine, as 90% of the important stuff can be captured in army-wide rules or wrapped up into new Troops Platoons, allowing for a more varied and viable force overall. I won't miss them, because the point is for the vanilla list to be playable and competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283222.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283233.page GMT
agreed. To put it mildly, there are good ideas in there that are poorly executed.

Guard need a new codex.

I expect they will recut the Russ sprue, I think it is one of the oldest. Second vehicle after the old Rhino?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283234.page GMT 6 pt ork and a 6 pt guardman are pretty much on equal footing right? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283236.page GMT
The Devil you know vs. The Devil you don't, eh? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283243.page GMT
I was under the impression that the run feature precluded any firing or charging on the turn it was performed. Am I wrong about this?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283256.page GMT
Guardsmen should have BS4 when firing lasguns. Taking heavy weapons in platoon squads should require a doctrine, or simply not be an option.

Just lasguns. Not laspistols, not heavy weapons, not tanks. But the lasgun needs a boost, and I think that making them hit more effectively with it might just work. It would make guardsman worth something without giving them heavy weapons that require them to stay still. They should be able to move towards the enemy and fire their weapons into the enemy to a good effect. The primary guard firepower SHOULD be a case of many, many lasguns blasting apart targets with sheer numbers, SUPPORTED by their heavy weapons and artillery. A Guardsman platoon should be able to unleash enough firepower into a enemy unit to reduce them to bloody chunks.

Let people take heavy weapons squads as add-ons to platoons. It doesn't make much sense to tie them to infantry squads from a fluff standpoint (tactically, what infantry squad would want to tie themselves down like that?) and gameplay (the Guard now need to close on objectives!)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283258.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283259.page GMT
NO. If that means the loss of doctrines then no no no no no no.
And the first person that says "well you can use XXX in Apocalypse is a tidliwinks playing girly man.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283267.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283273.page GMT IG doctrines is that many of them came from CA lists that were invalidated by the new IG codex. things like Chem inhalers, Xenos hunters, die hards, and hardened fighters are exist to build the old CA lists.

By my rough count, 17 of the 28 doctrines have at least some value in play. I would consider that a decent batting average. I fully expect them to disappear, and I think a well executed Chaos or Eldar style codex could be really amazing, but the problem is still in execution, not in theory.

Finally, do you (Nurglitch) need to mock, minimize, or express disdain for everything enjoyed by people that disagree with you? I mean, it's one thing to have an opinion, but it seems you have a default sort of dismissal for things enjoyed by a lot of posters here. I don't think I've ever seen somebody dislike the doctrine system like apparently you do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283288.page GMT
After the treatment Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines have received, I'm terrified that they're going to redo the guard codex and make it even less competitive then it is now, and take away all the fun doctrines that make so many builds possible.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283306.page GMT
The problem with the implementation is that there's gamers involved and gamers have a tendency to game the system, and not only that but suppress dissent of popular opinions about how the gamed should both be played and gamed. The implementation has resulted in there being doctrines that some people refer to as 'compulsory' and doctrines that are summarily dismissed as not having value in play. The end result of this unimaginative attitude has been the bland homogenization of the Imperial Guard back into cookie-cutter Imperial Guard armies.

While doctrines were intended to allow people to explore the diversity of the Imperial Guard, they just became another factor in producing the Competitive Imperial Guard Army. Part of the problem is the execution, in improperly valued doctrines and superfluous repetition. But part of the problem is in the concept, in separating these strategic choices too fully from the armies that they are chosen for. This problem was shared by codex armouries: that one value of each rule did not fit all.

Seeing as the content of those armouries have been made organic to the lists, resulting in the limited conceptual diversity of newer codicies resulting in more live options, expect to see the doctrines back as options integrated into the army list - some doctrines will be lost because they were superfluous and needlessly decorative diversity, and the surviving ones will be re-pointed* to account for the units that have them as option.

*When I say re-pointed I don't mean that some units will have the rule of doctrine X for 5 points and some units will have it for 10 points (though that might happen), I mean that if they have that option (such that the option is useful) the difference in cost will be taken up elsewhere in the list.

Edited for topical content.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283310.page GMT And yes Polonius, I do need to mock, minimize, or express disdain for everything enjoyed by people that disagree with me because (1) what they enjoy should be mocked, minimized, and disdained, and (2) I feel that like should be paid for like, and favours paid in full. Call it a moral compulsion, if you like.
[/quote]

Ok, I was just checking. It's a bit of shame really, because I think you raise a lot of valid topics of discussion (even if I frequently disagree.)

As for the doctrines:

I disagree wholeheartedly on the nature of IG homogenization. I think any single minded approach to IG is purely a resutl of reading Dakka, as I so seldom see IG armies as to make any comparison based on a pretty small sample pool. Even so, I seldom run into anything I would consider homogenous. The IG codex has the following builds, each distinct and viable:
1) all infantry SAFH
2) Mechanized/tank SAFH
3) Drop Troops
4) "Stealth" armies with Light Infantry
5) Codex, or hybrid armies.

That's more diversity then out of such current Codices as DA, and in practice is much more diverse then what you see from Tau, Tyranids, or necrons.

Two of those builds rely on Organizational doctrines, as does the lamentably weak Stormtrooper army. Outside of bum units, of which there are plenty, there are really only a handful of completely garbage doctrines (Die hards, chem inhalers, cyborg bodies, Warrior weapons), and There is really only one that would be considered mandatory: Iron Discipline. Close Order Drill and Drop Troops are arguably too powerful while being free, but lots of people build great lists without either one.

Competitve IG armies tend to use a small subset of Doctrines, but the IG book is old and was never a top notch book. It's like complaining that DE armies usually use one or two builds: it's amazing there's anything viable left in that book!

To Dr. Thunder: there are two issues you address:

1) The power level of the book. There's virtually nothing that can be done about it. Certain units will certainly be recosted, and in all fairness, the new books are balanced, [i]in terms of each other.[/i] There are two arguably broken books (SM and NIds), but with 5th edition and a new SM codex on the horizon, the power balance of 40k is utterly in flux. I would not base any desire for a new book, or fear, on what it's strength will be.

2) GW has shown that when it wants to (Eldar, Orks, and to a certain extent DA) it can eliminate sub lists, clans, etc. and still retain the fundamental nature of those old lists. In addition, they generally gain flexibility in return. Chaos is a notable aberance, but the 3.5 book was insanely broad and diverse, and in all honesty needed a trim. Could GW have cut less? Of course, and I've argued in the past. The fact is, outside of IW SAFH and Daemonbombs, the spirit, if not the exact form, of the old lists were retained.

So what does this mean for IG? As many, many people have pointed out, the Doctrines offer at least some false choice. Of the 28, 10 are simply to unlike other units, leaving doctrine IG one of the smallest unit palettes in the game. Of the remaining 18, they can be divided more or less as follows:

Folded into the list:
Mechanized
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
Veterans

Allowable to certain platoons for a cost:
Light Infantry
Camo
Carapace
Drop Troops

Either Cut or unlocked with a character
Grenadiers
Hardened Fighters
Xenos Fighters

Cut with little great loss:
Die Hards
Independent commissars
Jungle Fighters
Sharpshooters
The rest of the equiptment.

If the IG retain the ability to field diverse looking formations (drop troops, mechanized, etc) I think any new IG codex will be a success, if only because it will also bring with it an update to the many, many underutilized units in the book.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283321.page GMT
I especially like the last sentence (2). Hypocrisy at its finest.

If that doesn't scream "Ignore me! I am an Obnoxious, Flamebaiting Troll!" I dont know what does.

Time to use that all important ignore button now I suppose. its a shame, because I do find some usefulness out of your posts, even when they are rife with platitudes.

[edit]

On topic though, like many codecies in 4th edition before DA, there were alot of great ideas with bad execution.

Sadly, doctrines will likely go. I dont see why, as all GW has to do is balance them and call it a day. but now they will have to start from scratch and rework the whole thing.

Neither option is really bad, I suppose, but I imagine it would just be easier for designers to actually balance the iteration we have. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283323.page GMT
Um, Guardsmen could be auto-hit with their S3 AP- Lasguns and they'd still be crap for shooting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283336.page GMT
Of the remaining Doctrines, many are grossly mis-costed. Warrior Weapons, for example, should be FREE, whereas Drop Troops is probably worth 25 pts per unit. If these Doctrines were costed properly, then they could be carried forward.

In light of the CSM book, I don't think that IG would suffer at all from a rewrite. Indeed, I suspect a CSM-style IG book could do wonders to further invigorate the IG.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283340.page GMT AP- Lasguns and they'd still be crap for shooting."

Don't think so, if you take all the squads you can in six platoons you get 360 gaurdsmen who would then at 12 inches put out 720 shots that auto hit.

Against MEQs

720 hits 240 wound 80 dead marines.

Against Orcs

720 hits 240 wound 200 dead orcs *at 6+ save or 160 dead orcs at 5+ save

Not many armies, (in fact I can't think of any) can put out that much firepower at such a low cost.

As for right now,

360 hit, 120 wound, 40 kill against MEQs Now I do know armies that can do that. But very few with just troop options.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283344.page GMT IG have the best (note: I did [b]not[/b] say "most powerful") codices in the game. They are the standard to which all other codices should be compared. Sure, they could maybe use a bit of tweaking (ogryns, advisors, tech-priests, some of the traits) but after the fiasco of the Chaos Space Marines codex, I'm skeptical about the current design team's ability to improve upon the IG Codex.

The IG Codex is supposed to represent the varied human armies (Inquisition aside) of the Galaxy. Those doctrines give them a lot of flexibility. I'd like to see the old book stay in print a while longer, at least until we see how it performs in 5th edition. If it's a failure in 5th, then obviously it needs to be reexamined. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283382.page GMT HtH to prevent the rest of the army from shooting.

But for sake of argument, let's just assume that you have 360 Guardsmen. At 6 pts each, that's 2160 pts.

Now for 2160 pts, that's 10 squads of Space Marines (1 Veteran, 6 Tactical, 3 Devastators), each in an AV11/11/10 Rhino...

720 hits with S3 + d6 for AP gives:
- 120 S4 hits for NO EFFECT,
- 120 S5 hits for NO EFFECT,
- 120 S6 hits for NO EFFECT,
- 120 S7 hits for NO EFFECT,
- 120 S8 hits for NO EFFECT, and (wait for it)...
- 120 S9 hits for NO EFFECT.

Awesome shooting, too bad about S3 not being able to scratch AV10+...

Now, you say that they were all within 12" to Rapid-Fire?

OK, great. No Movement.

10 Rhinos with 2 twin Bolters fire. That's 40 re-rollable shots for 35 hits, 23 kills.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

Yay Rhinoes!

____

Oh, yeah. If we're talking about optimal MEQ-killing power, I think the new Bloodletters under similar conditions (no losses, in HtH) will do quite well for the points. Hellblades are just murder on SM.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283394.page GMT
I can see the '[i]Yes[/i]' and '[i]No[/i]' options, but where's the '[i]F**k no![/i]' option?

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283397.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283404.page GMT
Guardsmen should have BS4 when firing lasguns. Taking heavy weapons in platoon squads should require a doctrine, or simply not be an option.

Just lasguns. Not laspistols, not heavy weapons, not tanks. But the lasgun needs a boost, and I think that making them hit more effectively with it might just work. It would make guardsman worth something without giving them heavy weapons that require them to stay still. They should be able to move towards the enemy and fire their weapons into the enemy to a good effect. The primary guard firepower SHOULD be a case of many, many lasguns blasting apart targets with sheer numbers, SUPPORTED by their heavy weapons and artillery. A Guardsman platoon should be able to unleash enough firepower into a enemy unit to reduce them to bloody chunks.

Let people take heavy weapons squads as add-ons to platoons. It doesn't make much sense to tie them to infantry squads from a fluff standpoint (tactically, what infantry squad would want to tie themselves down like that?) and gameplay (the Guard now need to close on objectives!)[/quote]

making them 5 points each with an increase in the cost of heavy weapons would do the same thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283406.page GMT IG have a bad statline, and 5th penalizes static armies, so they get less utility out of their Heavy weapons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283471.page GMT
re cheaper guardsmen: I think the opposite. Guardsmen should cost more points, perhaps 7 each with frag greandes as standard equipment. to make up for this Sentinels, Chimeras Advisiors, rough riders some weapon options and Orgyns should be (much) cheaper, Ratlings and Veterans should be easier to get (i.e. not 0-1) and Advisors, Orgyns, Mortars Autocannons and Storm Troopers should be more powerful.

I'd like to see a streamlined Doctrine system but I've seen GW 'streamline' things before ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283531.page GMT
[quote=Tacobake]

I expect they will recut the Russ sprue, I think it is one of the oldest. Second vehicle after the old Rhino?[/quote]

Barring long OOP stuff like the Mk 1 land raider and the old Ork battlewagon (still not replaced!) the Russ is the oldest of them. Isn't the Chimera from the same time? They're still a decent looking kits, they just need some more options. Or we'll lose the ones not supported (like from mounted HBs on Russes and turret HBs on chimeras).

Polonius has some really good thoughts

[quote=Polonius]Of the remaining 18, they can be divided more or less as follows:

Folded into the list:
Mechanized
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
Veterans

Allowable to certain platoons for a cost:
Light Infantry
Camo
Carapace
Drop Troops

Either Cut or unlocked with a character
Grenadiers
Hardened Fighters
Xenos Fighters

Cut with little great loss:
Die Hards
Independent commissars
Jungle Fighters
Sharpshooters
The rest of the equiptment.

If the IG retain the ability to field diverse looking formations (drop troops, mechanized, etc) I think any new IG codex will be a success, if only because it will also bring with it an update to the many, many underutilized units in the book.
[/quote]

But I think you're looking at it in reverse of how GW will. These days GW is asking what models does it have, what models does it want to sell and what are the best rules to make that happen.

5 point guardsmen are more likely simply because it would require buying more models.

With all the regiments but Cats and Cads OOP, I can see the following happening:

Troops:
Light infantry (6+ save, infiltrate, +1 in cover)
Infantry platoons (5pts a model, chimeras available to all)
Heavy infantry (storm troopers in plastic)

MAYBE conscripts, but probably not since GW would say they need to make a new kit for it.

I'd expect hellhounds, griffins and exterminators to come back with new sprues

Dropping would be limited to elite storm troopers, vets would get infiltrate. Close order drill and iron discipline if they survive at all would become wargear (the Iron Eagle Metal of Disciple or something).

Command platoons I think would be heavily reworked. Heavy weapon teams would go into heavy support where they should have always been. With luck, command platoons will become more like the IG General's retinue (WD a few years back) or Inquisition retinues.

The biggest problem in the IG is the tiny little bit sized units. Players need to option of combining squads to make 20-50 man units that can soak up losses for days.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283537.page GMT GW might drop doctrines-some people do try to min/max the hell out of their army with them

But whne I read the new CSM codex I was really disapointed with it, not really being customisable enough for my liking (Deamon Princes and Chaos Lords spring to mind) And removing doctrines would ruin many of the well thought out armies out there, and may discourage people to keep playing]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283557.page GMT The biggest problem in the IG is the tiny little bit sized units. Players need to option of combining squads to make 20-50 man units that can soak up losses for days. [/quote]

I agree. My Tau firewarriors can deal with 12-man units. The IG cannot. I'm actually surprised that forgeworld didn't take the initiative and make their WW1 krieg army lists require at least 20 men per squad. You know, what with the whole "selling more models" and "massed infantry rush" themes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283575.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283590.page GMT
to make up for this Sentinels, Chimeras Advisiors, rough riders some weapon options and Orgyns should be (much) cheaper, Ratlings and Veterans should be easier to get (i.e. not 0-1) and Advisors, Orgyns, Mortars Autocannons and Storm Troopers should be more powerful.

I'd like to see a streamlined Doctrine system but I've seen GW 'streamline' things before [/quote]

Guardsmen with Frags aren't worth 6 pts and definitely not 7 pts. BS3 Guardsmen with a Lasgun are worth about 4 or 5 pts. Frags are worth less than 1 pt to a WS3 T3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+ Guardsman. The only way Guardsmen are worth 7 pts is if they get Cameoline or Carapace bundled in with the Frags.

I generally agree with your lists of overcosted / too-limited / underpowered units.

I don't know why you're worried about the Doctrines. A few discrete choices should stay. Most of it should be scrapped.


[quote=Kid_Kyoto]
Barring long OOP stuff like the Mk 1 land raider and the old Ork battlewagon (still not replaced!) the Russ is the oldest of them. Isn't the Chimera from the same time? They're still a decent looking kits, they just need some more options. Or we'll lose the ones not supported (like from mounted HBs on Russes and turret HBs on chimeras).

But I think you're looking at it in reverse of how GW will. These days GW is asking what models does it have, what models does it want to sell and what are the best rules to make that happen.

I'd expect hellhounds, griffins and exterminators to come back with new sprues

Dropping would be limited to elite storm troopers, vets would get infiltrate. Close order drill and iron discipline if they survive at all would become wargear (the Iron Eagle Metal of Disciple or something).

Command platoons I think would be heavily reworked. Heavy weapon teams would go into heavy support where they should have always been. With luck, command platoons will become more like the IG General's retinue (WD a few years back) or Inquisition retinues.

[/quote]
The Russ is the model kit that has aged the most. It's scale is clearly for 25mm, not 28mm, and it's design and proportions are way off. As can be seen from the Forgeworld band-aids of new hull and turret, the Russ is a kit that really needs to be redone with the next IG Codex. The Chimera, OTOH, is fine.

Going from models to Troops Platoons still gives plenty of options:
Cadians = Infantry Platoon (Sv5+)
Catachans = Light Infantry Platoon (Sv6+ w/ Cameoline)
Stormtroopers = Grenadier Platoon (BS4 Sv4+)
Chimera = Mechanized Platoon
WFB Flagellants = Conscript Platoon

I agree the Hellhound will be done in plastic; hopefully, this is FW Artemia-pattern. The Exterminator adds relatively little but would be nice.

Deep Strike should be restricted to Storms and Sentinels. Tho a Drop Troop Platoon for plastic Elysians would be awesome.

Vox, ID should be HQ rules / options. COD and Sharpshooting should go away.

Command Platoon should be reworked, and the Heavy Weapons Squads should attach to the Troops Platoons, not to Heavy Support. IG Heavy Support is for Pie.

IG Troops should use the Platoon model of multiple 10-man squads exclusively, but the Command Squads should be variable size of 5 to 10 men. This standardizes the rules for the Guard and makes a clear statement of how they fight. Mobs are how Orks fight, so would be inappropriate for IG.

[quote=Storm Lord]But whne I read the new CSM codex I was really disapointed with it, not really being customisable enough for my liking (Deamon Princes and Chaos Lords spring to mind) [/quote]

I don't know what CSM Codex you might be talking about, because the current CSM Codex is what got me excited to play CSM again. As far as I'm concerned, all of the important options are there, particularly for HQs and Troops.
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I generally agree with your lists of overcosted / too-limited / underpowered units.

I don't know why you're worried about the Doctrines. A few discrete choices should stay. Most of it should be scrapped.[/quote]
I feel that Guardsmen are about right at 6 points each and I field about 95 'warm bodies' in 1500 points (and I suspect JJ does too). However what the IG codex needs more than anything is a move towards a more maneuver based fighting style. In order to do this you need to make many of the faster under-performing units in the codex (Sentiels, rough riders hellhounds, Ogryns etc.) cheaper or better (or both). If you do this without raising the base cost (even indirectly by forcing wargear upgrades) of guardsmen then the IG army will simply become more powerful (perhaps too powerful) as opposed to different, the essence if codex creep.

What it comes down to is, what are you prepared to give up in order for the under par units to be brought up to speed?

Why am I worried about Doctrines? Because I have several squads of carapace armoured guardsmen (models with no official model support) who only just survived the change from the old Elysian WD list and I saw what happened to Codex Chaos.

[quote=Nurglitch]The end result of this unimaginative attitude has been the bland homogenization of the Imperial Guard back into cookie-cutter Imperial Guard armies.[/quote]
Looking at the IG armies I play and play against I’m not seeing this. I think you missed your mark here. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283636.page GMT Str 4 Defensive weapon would mean that it can't really move and fire as well) and make the kit 35 dollars. Also make it so that every squad in the platoon can buy the Chimera. That should increase maneuverability and firepower at the same time while still fitting with the theme of massed infantry. Seeing as you get 60 guardsmen at roughly 1.75 pts each to 5 pts each. The more Guardsmen you take the cheaper they get.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283646.page GMT
Not that GW won't wave the "Counts as" wand over them, but there is at least a chance that GW will want to keep selling Vostoyans.

Here's an interesting thought: will GW bring back the idea that IG armies on the tabletop represent an amalgamation of various regiments? Now that Eldrad fights for any craftworld and Emperor's Children and Berzerkers are BFF, why not bring back the 2nd edition ideal of varying regiments?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283648.page GMT
So they have, You're right. According to the [url=http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/vostroyans/1/]GW website[/url] the Vostroyans have the following doctrines:

* Restricted Troops:
Special Weapon squads
* Restricted Troops:
Heavy Weapon platoons
* Sharpshooters
* Carapace armour
* Hardened Fighters

Interestingly they are not wearing (much) Carapace armour on the models (less than Cadians who don't have Carapace armour) and are desperately short of Heavy and Special weapon options (Meltagun, Autocannon and Missile Launcher). Given the model range the Vostroyans have a very odd Doctrine set indeed.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283654.page GMT IG codex needs more than anything is a move towards a more maneuver based fighting style. In order to do this you need to make many of the faster under-performing units in the codex (Sentiels, rough riders hellhounds, Ogryns etc.) cheaper or better (or both). If you do this without raising the base cost (even indirectly by forcing wargear upgrades) of guardsmen then the IG army will simply become more powerful (perhaps too powerful) as opposed to different, the essence if codex creep.

What it comes down to is, what are you prepared to give up in order for the under par units to be brought up to speed?

Why am I worried about Doctrines? Because I have several squads of carapace armoured guardsmen (models with no official model support) who only just survived the change from the old Elysian WD list and I saw what happened to Codex Chaos.[/quote]
I completely agree that the IG need to be changed to support maneuver warfare. I disagree that Sentinels, etc. are "good enough" for their current points and that points increases would be warranted. I don't believe that Guardsmen are worth 6 pts in a maneuver environment - they were bumped from 5 to 6 because the environment was static shooting. So I'm not worried about Codex creep from fixing the problem units - they're not taken so much because they're simply bad.

Making more units more-playable will simply trade off against other currently-playable units. So the overall power level would remain the same, but the player would have more viable options to work with.

As for Doctrines, I have several squads in Cameoline. I fully expect Platoon of Cameoline Guardsmen, and you should expect Platoon of Carapace Guardsmen.

[quote=Ratbarf]Well, one way to fix the guard would be to make the base platoons say 100 pts? Then just add on the points used for special weapons and troop upgrades. But make the actual number of gaurds men vary. So for 100 pts you would have to have at least a command squad and two squads of infantry. Then you could add 1-4 more squads for no extra cost. So your 360 guardsmen now cost 600 pts without any wargear or special weapons. Have the heavey weapon platoons be upgrades you can buy with the platoons command squad.

And make Chimeras cheaper, say 35 pts for 12 11 10 armour. (seeing as the Str 4 Defensive weapon would mean that it can't really move and fire as well) and make the kit 35 dollars. Also make it so that every squad in the platoon can buy the Chimera. That should increase maneuverability and firepower at the same time while still fitting with the theme of massed infantry. Seeing as you get 60 guardsmen at roughly 1.75 pts each to 5 pts each. The more Guardsmen you take the cheaper they get.[/quote]

I think the current Platoon structure and pricing model is OK, just a bit overpriced. It would be simpler to have discrete Platoons, a la Cult Marines, because then it's easier to tailor the options to the Platoon and make each distinctive.

I believe general consensus for Chimeras should be AV 12/11/10, tho I think 50 pts with both Heavy weapons added would be about right.

[quote=Polonius]The Vostroyans have carapace armor, and they were only released two years ago with a larger line of minis then either Sisters or Grey Knights got with their codices.

Here's an interesting thought: will GW bring back the idea that IG armies on the tabletop represent an amalgamation of various regiments? [/quote]

The Vostroyans are still in stock, and Carapace is popular, so I think they'll hang around for a little while.

I think that we could (and should) see mixed-role IG Regiments. For example, a valid IG Regiment could be composed of 2 Light Infantry Platoons with a (Mechanized) Grenadier Platoon or some other mix. This would expand modeling and tactical options considerably in the same way that Chaos Skittles is possible. That's what I'm betting on.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283656.page GMT Disagree with who? Not me. Sentinels are over priced.

[quote=JohnHwangDD]As for Doctrines, I have several squads in Cameoline. I fully expect Platoon of Cameoline Guardsmen, and you should expect Platoon of Carapace Guardsmen.[/quote]
You hold your breath John, I'll wait and see, best not to get my hopes up. In addition this wouldn't help my army in any way. My army consists of the following carapace armoured troops, as you an see carapace armoured platoons would be of no help.

Command Squad
Heavy Bolter Squad
2-3 Hardened Veteran Squads
3 Grenadier Squads
2 Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Squads w/ Rhinos

I was contemplating increasing the number of heavy and assault weapon squads I have, however I don't have enough faith in the new codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283661.page GMT ever try to do the math hammer on a Me ch army it doesn't work its going to cost way to much . the only one thats got you close was the storm trooper army you could win if you played it right and had a lot of luck. i have about three platoons of Steele legion guys with 2 Russ and about 5 las canons siting on my shelf waiting to b painted I'm just holding off for the new codex. GW make me with there long over do codex's and old models that go up in price ever year ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283725.page GMT

Maybe there are 'too many' options but I think it is one of the few ways to actually make the list competitive and still be based around flashlight toting chumps and big tanks.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283729.page GMT Disagree with who? Not me. Sentinels are over priced.[/quote]

If the Sentinel were made worth its points, either by cutting cost or improving the unit, that's no reason to increase the cost on Guardsmen or any other unit. If you overinflate the cost of Guardsmen, all you do is make Guardsmen suck instead of Sentinels.

[quote=George Spiggott][quote=JohnHwangDD]As for Doctrines, I have several squads in Cameoline. I fully expect Platoon of Cameoline Guardsmen, and you should expect Platoon of Carapace Guardsmen.[/quote]
You hold your breath John, I'll wait and see, best not to get my hopes up. [/quote]

Given the recent Codices, it's hard to imagine any other approach to be taken for IG Troops.

[quote=George Spiggott]In addition this wouldn't help my army in any way. My army consists of the following carapace armoured troops, as you an see carapace armoured platoons would be of no help.

Command Squad
Heavy Bolter Squad
2-3 Hardened Veteran Squads
3 Grenadier Squads
2 Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Squads w/ Rhinos

I was contemplating increasing the number of heavy and assault weapon squads I have, however I don't have enough faith in the new codex.[/quote]

Your models would be fully-playable, just not necessarily in the exact same configuration. To me, it looks like they would reshuffle into 2 Grenadier Platoons for your Troops, along with Vets and HQ. Instead of burning 5 Troops slots, you might only use 2 (or 3), but you'd lose nothing in terms of Scoring Units.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283734.page GMT IG armies I play and play against I’m not seeing this. I think you missed your mark here.[/quote]
No, still seems right on the mark. The plural of anecdote is not data, so I've heard, and so you'd need to look at everyone else's IG armies besides the ones in your corner of the world. My experience suggests no two Imperial Guard armies are alike, but then I don't pretend that I have the same gaming experience as most of the people playing the game.

It would be interesting to see whether my claim is actually true, that we see very little variation in armies called "competitive", but it doesn't seem like we can. In the absence of positive proof I think the fact that words like "mandatory" and "garbage" are used to describe doctrines suggests widespread public perception of homogeneity regardless of the actual state of things. After all, even if the codex actually allows a diversity of competitive lists to be fielded, that actuality is irrelevant in the face of GW's need to appeal to some profitable quorum (not necessarily the loudest voices either...). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283760.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283771.page GMT GW will lower the points cost on some things so you have to buy more models which means more $$$ feed to GW ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283871.page GMT IG codex is, other than the ubiquitous plasma gun there's no good stand and shoot special weapon. GLs might be good if they were 5 points per.

Adding the heavy stubber as a special weapon option would require new models, but would make the gun line squads more interesting.

Also I think the plastic catachans are now the oldest of the multi-part plastics. They'd be likely candidates for a re-do or recut. It probably means a stealth price hike, from $35 for 20 to $22 for 10 but if they added the special weapon options it would almost be a price cut.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283898.page GMT IG codex is only broken because in the crazy mixed-up world of 40k if you bring a knife to a gunfight, you win!

The problem is not the IG codex, it is the fact that in 4th ed (don't have a clue with 5th, frankly I'll wait until its out and see what happens before I can be bothered to think about it) standing and shooting makes for a boring game (which is the fault of the rules, there are many other games in which standing and shooting makes for an interesting game), so the rules encourage "close combat". Therefore armies that suck at close combat aren't "competitive" and therefore are only played by those who prefer an uphill struggle.

The obvious "quick fix" would be to make IG tanks less vulnerable to close combat - the whole idea of a demon snipping one open with its crab claws is just ridunkulous to me...

Of course somehow that would have to be fiddles so that it didn't make non-IG tanks stupidly good so, it probably won't work in the meta game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283901.page GMT
It would be interesting to see whether my claim is actually true, that we see very little variation in armies called "competitive", but it doesn't seem like we can. In the absence of positive proof I think the fact that words like "mandatory" and "garbage" are used to describe doctrines suggests widespread public perception of homogeneity regardless of the actual state of things. After all, even if the codex actually allows a diversity of competitive lists to be fielded, that actuality is irrelevant in the face of GW's need to appeal to some profitable quorum (not necessarily the loudest voices either...). [/quote]
Of course those "less effective" doctrines are still around permitting more thematic/fluffy players the ability to do what they desire. Elimination of doctrines, even if not impacting the tourney scene, impact the ability to field those types of lists. If I want to play some sort of feral, roman legion (warrior weapons, close order, carapace, rough riders) I can under the current codex. Will it be stomped by a Tier One list-potentially. But remove those doctrines and its highly likely that option goes by the wayside.

Thats my issue with the doctrine removal. Some minor tweekages in points (or lack of points) and they could be much more balanced. Indeed, instead of removing doctinres, more should be added, to provide greater variety and sales. Imagine rough rider companies, rhino doctrines, tank riders, and more points efficient ogryns. But it won't happen. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/283950.page GMT IG. doctrines were the last real innovation in 40k, something all armies should have had access to.

do you guys complain that there are too many varieties of beer ? seriously, even if you don't use all the options it nice that they are there.

anyway, i vote HELL NO !!! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284019.page GMT IG troops so i could trade my griffon in for a second bassy and pay for the up costed heavy and special weapons in the other ones. I looked at the doc and read them , and honestly the only one I have found myself wanting to use is the one that lets me have 3 squads of vets.

Now I will admit I play a SAFH gunline IG, with 3 pie plates , 5 las cannons, 3 autocannon/rocketlauncher, 1multi laser, 1heavy bolter, 1 heavy stubber, 2 plasma, 1 melta, 1 storm bolter, and 34 flashlights at 1000 points. I won't miss docs at all, but I don't use them. A re-write of the guard codex really most likely would only help me as its very likely for the guard to drop to 5 points each, its unlikly for the specials or heavy's to go up in cost, and I might actually get my griffon back, or the points to put my ratlings back on the field.

On the other hand i do understand that alot of people are playing very fluffy ig armies useing warrior weapons and carp armor for the guard army of dieing. These are the people who are gonna get burned by a re-write, its very likely that drop troop will be in the ig dex as a troop option, same for camo, and mech. The stuff they will drop is the stuff the fluff bunnies are useing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284027.page GMT IG codex is, other than the ubiquitous plasma gun there's no good stand and shoot special weapon. GLs might be good if they were 5 points per.

Adding the heavy stubber as a special weapon option would require new models,

Also I think the plastic catachans are now the oldest of the multi-part plastics. [/quote]

Each Special weapon is supposed to have a different role, so it's OK that the Plasma Gun is the only good stand-and-shoot gun. That's the point.

I agree Heavy Stubber would be a good thing to add.

The plastic Catachans should stay, and the IG should simply get a 3rd plastic regiment. I'd suggest Tallarn for Cameoline to sit along plastic Stormtroopers in Carapace.

[quote=jeremycobert]i am amazed that there are so many people who want to get rid of doctrines. [/quote]

You presume that Doctrines are the only way to provide variety, and that is a very poor assumption. With more Troops Platoon types and well-focused unit options, Doctrines are completely unnecessary.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284060.page GMT GW will manage a sensible spread is another thing entirely, but the potential for a good dex without doctrines is there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284064.page GMT
I also think you'd have to look pretty hard to find lots of people that want to scrap doctrines. I like them, I think it would be swell if they were kept and simply better balanced, but I think we all know that's not going to happen.

The doctrines system is considered successful primarliy because it gave a huge amount of flexibility to the basic IG platoon, a unit that was pretty good to start with and could become a buch of things with doctrines. What this concealed was a staggering lack of actual unit options in the book, both in terms of not having many units to begin with, and having some really, really bad units (particularly in the Elites section).

I think if the new book was both internally balanced and competitve AND had doctrines, everybody would be thrilled. I, for one, would trade the flexibilty of taking Independent commisars and Die-Hards for better Ogryn, Stormtroopers, sentinels and Chimeras.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284069.page GMT
My big issue with traits and doctrines is that the drawbacks tend to be too easy to work around. Especially with Space Marine traits, it's usually easy to find a couple units that won't be used, at least in normal sized games, and accept that you can't take those... In some cases it might be an option you wouldn't want to take anyway, so it's even less of a drawback.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284087.page GMT HQs to allow some shifts in force organization a la the Warboss and Belial, and taking some upgrade to allow units an option to a la Grotsnik and Fabius Bile.

Something like:

HQ
1. Senior Officer
2. Commissariat Cadre
3. Primaris Psycker Cadre
4. Ministorum Cadre
5. 1 Command Platoon per Senior Officer (1 Command Squad, 0-3 Support Squads)

Elites
1. Storm Trooper Platoon (1-3 Storm Trooper Squads)
2. Ogryn Platoon (1-3 Ogryn Squads)
3. Veteran Platoon (1-3 Veteran Squads)
4. Sniper Detachment (1-3 Sniper Teams)
5. 1 Enginseer per Vehicle or Vehicle Squadron

Troops
1. Conscript Platoon (1-5 Conscript Squads)
2. Infantry Platoon (1 Command Squad, 2-4 Infantry Squads)

Light Support
1. Rough Rider Platoon
2. Sentinel Platoon
3. Salamander Light Tank

Heavy Support
1. Leman Russ Main Battle Tank
2. Demolisher Infantry Support Tank
3. Hellhound Flame Tank
4. Basilisk Self-Propelled Gun
5. Medusa Self-Propelled Mortar

Senior Officer
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W3 I3 A3 Ld9 Sv5+

Wargear: Lasgun or Laspistol and Chainsword, Flak Armour

Command Squad
1 Junior Officer + 1 Sergeant + 3 Guardsmen

Wargear: Lasgun or Laspistol and Chainsword, Flak Armour, 1 Vox-caster
Options: May take Company Standard Bearer or 0-1 Regimental Standard Bearer if HQ choice, Medic, Mechanicus Liason (Enginseer), 1 Heavy Weapon (Heavy Stubber, Mortar, Autocannon, or Rocket Launcher unless Mechanicus Liason then also Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, or Multi-Laser), up to 3 Special Weapons (Grenade Launchers and Flamethrowers unless Mechanicus Liason then also Plasma Guns or Melta Guns). May take Chimera as dedicated transport, in which case the entire Platoon must take Chimera dedicated transports. May take Carapace Armour, in which case the entire Platoon must take carapace armour.

Infantry Squad - 50pts
1 Sergeant + 9 Guardsmen

Wargear: Lasgun, Flak Armour, 1 Vox Caster, Frag Grenades.
Options: Sergeant may exchange Lasgun for Laspistol and Chainsword. May take one Special Weapon and one Heavy Weapon as Command Squad. Must take a Chimera dedicated transport if the platoon command squad takes one. Must all take Carapace Armour if the platoon command squad takes one. All models may be equipped with krak grenades.

Conscript Squad - 30pts
1 Conscript Sergeant + 9 Conscripts

Wargear: Lasgun
Options: 1 Heavy Weapon (Heavy Stubber, Mortar, Autocannon, or Rocket Launcher), 1 Special Weapons (Grenade Launchers and Flamethrowers).

Storm Trooper Squad
1 Junior Officer + 9 Storm Troopers

Wargear: Lasgun or Shotgun, Carapace Armour, Targeters, Frag and Krak Grenades. Grav-Chutes.
Options: Junior Officer may exchange his Lasgun for a Las Pistol and Chainsword. The Laspistol may be upgraded to Plasma Pistol. The Chainsword may be upgraded to a Power Weapon. Any model in the squad can carry Melta Bombs. One Junior Officer in the platoon may be upgraded to a Senior Officer. Two Storm Troopers per squad can take either a Flamethrowers, a Melta Gun, or a Plasma Gun. May take Valkyrie as dedicated transport, if so, then the entire Platoon must take Valkries as dedicated transports.

Veteran Squad
1 Sergeant + 9 Veterans

Wargear: Either (1) Lasgun or (2) Shotgun or (3) Laspistol and Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades, Vox-Caster
Options: One Veteran Sergeant in the platoon may be upgraded to a Junior Officer. Junior Officer may exchange his Lasgun for a Las Pistol and Chainsword. The Laspistol may be upgraded to Plasma Pistol. The Chainsword may be upgraded to a Power Weapon. Any model in the squad can carry a heavy weapon, three models not carrying the heavy weapon may take special weapons or demolition charges. Veterans can take a Chimera as a dedicated transport. The entire Veteran platoon may be upgraded to Carapace Armour or lose their save entirely and gain Stealth and Move Through Cover. Veterans can infiltrate if they do not take a dedicated transport.

Support Squad
1 Sergeant + 5 Guardsmen

Wargear: Lasgun, Flak Armour, 1 Vox Caster
Options: Three Guardsmen must exchange their lasguns for either Heavy Weapons or Special Weapons, as Command Squad. Likewise Carapace Armour or Chimera Dedicated Transport if Command squad takes these options.

Salamander Light Tank
Armour 12/12/10, BS3, Type: Fast, Tank, Crew: Imperial Guard
Weapons: Heavy Flamethrower, Autocannon
Equipment: Searchlight, Smoke Launchers
Options: Autocannon may be upgraded to Twin-Linked Lascannon, Heavy Flamethrower may be exchanged for a Heavy Bolter, may take Extra Armour (loses Fast), Rough terrain Modification (loses Fast), Track Guards, Pintle Heavy Stubber

Vox-Caster
If a squad has a Vox-Caster, then it can be split off from its parent platoon like an independent character. In addition that detached squad may still use that platoon's highest Ld for Morale and Pinning so long as that platoon's Command Squad has a vox-caster.

Master-Vox
If a Command squad has a Master-Vox, then any platoon whose Command squad has a vox-caster can use that Command squad's Ld for Morale and Pinning tests.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284102.page GMT lol]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284114.page GMT HQs to allow some shifts in force organization a la the Warboss and Belial, and taking some upgrade to allow units an option to a la Grotsnik and Fabius Bile.[/quote]

That's OK, though I'd rather have things unlocked and part of the basic list. There isn't anything in the IG that is so powerful or rare it needs to be handled this way.

Of course, the way this is currently done in the Codex is clumsy: May only take 1 AF Squad and/or Conscript Platoon per Infantry Platoon.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284140.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284233.page GMT
You presume that Doctrines are the only way to provide variety, and that is a very poor assumption. With more Troops Platoon types and well-focused unit options, Doctrines are completely unnecessary.
[/quote]

you assume GW has writers that can competently write interesting yet balanced rules. i however have been around the block a few times and know differently.

the doctrine system was very innovative for a codex, it allowed the end users to create their own unique army and even allowed you to make crappy units somewhat worthwhile.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284261.page GMT
It is a crap shoot, to be sure, but there's a difference between a crapshoot and Certain Doom. I suspect what IG players eventually get will be less than ideal, but I know it [i]could[/i] be otherwise. Sometimes you get the Chaos dex, but other times you get Orks or Eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284273.page GMT Las Cannons will be bumped to 200 pts each while mortars will be free in each squad to redress balance issues (i.e. GW´s IG warehouse is full with unselled mortars), the Chimeras will be replaced by Rhinos and the new heavy option will be Land Raiders ala Rogue Trader (did you notice the new box went up 10 pounds?) but don´t go yelling Yahooo! yet the land raiders will last only until next year revision of the codex to be substituted by elven chariots on the TO&E.
And of course, the doctrines will be dropped new players to dumbhammer can´t endure having to choose between many options, their brains overload (I wonder where GW find their playtesters nowadays? Perhaps in Miss Marbles School for Retarded Monkeys?) [/tongue in cheek]
So like it or not a new codex without doctrines is due, no matter that some were good and some not, simplification is the new rage word at the studio I think.

M.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284294.page GMT GW has writers that can competently write interesting yet balanced rules. i however have been around the block a few times and know differently.

the doctrine system was very innovative for a codex, it allowed the end users to create their own unique army and even allowed you to make crappy units somewhat worthwhile.[/quote]

OK, speaking of Doctrines, how often did anybody take Warrior Weapons (a Doctrine that turns somewhat worthwhile Guardsmen into totally crappy units) to make their unique armies?

No, I merely assume that GW's Doctrine-Free IG would be no worse than the current Doctrine disaster.

This is a very trivially low bar for competence, that even a blind monkey (or Jervis himself) could achieve with little effort. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284304.page GMT
The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284313.page GMT IG army.

GW will probably not fix Doctrines, that's true. They won't fix chapter traits either, and they didn't fix the Chaos Legions or Eldar Craftworlds. All in all, they're no big on fixing.

I suspect we'll end up losing some units. Conscripts, almost certainly. A lot of units will be "rebalanced". I expect Ogryns will go back to 5-man squads, gain Fleet and, surprise, Rending, for the low, low price of 180pts per unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284380.page GMT
The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE[/quote]

Let's hope for rending bayonets!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284418.page GMT
The problem lies in the fact that GW won't try to fix the Doctrine System, they'll just cut it in the same way they give Rending to any unit they don't know how to fix.

BYE[/quote]

Let's hope for rending bayonets![/quote]

Dude, do you remember the WD mailbag request for super bayonets from a few (?) years ago? I was practically rolling with laughter.

Attaching a small pointy stick will not make a Guardsman into a HtH combat god.

Personally, I like to presume that they're fighting with sharpened shovels, rather than screwing around with little knives.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284489.page GMT
edit: Oh wait we were talking about IG.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284492.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284500.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284512.page GMT
For change:
- Objectives are a problem
- Maneuver warfare is not supported
- Unnecessary complexity in current list
- Doctrines are a mess
- Excessively limited basic list

Against change:
- fear of invalidated models / conversions
- fear of army list changes
- dislike of rebalancing in general
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284518.page GMT
For change:
- Objectives are a problem
- Maneuver warfare is not supported
- Unnecessary complexity in current list
- Doctrines are a mess
- Excessively limited basic list

Against change:
- fear of invalidated models / conversions
- fear of army list changes
- dislike of rebalancing in general
[/quote]

More like:
Against Change:
-fear of loss of options
-fear of straight jacket vanilla list only
-fear of invalidated armies
-fear GW will go at the codex with a sledgehammer to fix "imbalances."
-fear concerns of maneuver/objective warfare will not be addressed.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284525.page GMT
As scary as this sounds, I might have to go with that it's a sign of faith.

The current codex isn't bad, and few IG players I've talked to hate it. It does suffer from a harsh case of "late 3rd ed-itis": tons of crappy units, nonsensical choices, atrocious internal balance (Stormtroopers vs. vets; Ogryn vs. Rough riders), and the desire to shoe horn as many evocative rule ever written for a sublist into one single codex. It was also written during 3rd edition, and while the studio claims they had 4th edition in mind, I think that's BS. Chimeras were a decent light tank/scoring unit at 85, but as a transport it's overcosted. Guardsmen were good in the static days of 40k, but in a manuever world are overcosted. The codex, like the DE one, needs an update if only because there is a dwindling number of effective builds in the book.

On the plus side for the designers, I'm starting to think that there might be some method to their madness. I think GW has learned the lesson that providing a la cart options isn't the only way to ensure a variety of innovative lists. If the current IG book is similar to Orks, Eldar, or even Chaos I think IG are in good shape. I think there is a kneejerk fear that IG will end up like the old 3rd edition book, but that simply won't happen. Even the much maligned DA, which are a subset of the less interesting end of the MEQ spectrum have a couple of neat builds and tons of options in their book. (Fact: DA have tons more HQ, the same # of elites, fewer troops unless you count RW and DW, same # of fasts and more heavies, plus they enjoy more transport options). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284532.page GMT
I really like the eb and flow of the comments. Particularly Polonius even handed writing. Huzah!

I voted yes, I would love to see a new IG dex. I am terified by the concept though as I do not like the new lockstep (limited options we have seen in the current dexes: Chaos and Daemons are both total failures IMO).

What the IG dex really needs is, to stay the same structure wise and have all the odd units corrected. I seriously doubt this would be what we actually get because of the direction of ciurrent codex development ie: Chaos Codex and Daemon COdex. What everyone wanted there: Chaos as a side; Daemons, lots of chaos options and some nod to the LATD codex to make it work somehow, what we got: Codex Spikey Marines and Codex Deep Striking Nidzilla. I'm afraid thats what will happen to IG. I expect we will get no more doctrines, and all the same awful problems with all the existing units, combined with a creamy whipped topping of units removal! In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the heavy company as a formation disapear entirely and the old tank units (like mortar medusas and the autocannon leman russ and vanquisher) to all stay dead.

What'd I'd like:

Viable CC Options
Fix Ogryns, ripper guns are rending, lower point cost, attached in the HQ or as an Elite choice, Bonehead gets a power weapon
Fix Roughriders, why do they have the only weapon in the game that breaks? They always have power weapons, they get the bonus everytime they charge
Add Jump Pack IG back, with flamers
IG Commanders are not ICs, just take it away from them, then they would work right in HtH in their squads, and a power glove might be ok.

Multiple Troop Options
Remove the limits for conscripts and Armored fist squads ratio to platoons, totally unnecesary
Restore Penal Battalions, Units that you can SHOOT INTO THE CC they are involved in, 3 or 4 points each BS2 LD7, failed leadership checks are automatically passed by
a loss of models equal to the difference (Bomb Collars)
Make Veterans, Storm Troopers and Grenadiers all Troop Choices
Make a roughrider Platoon a Troop choice

Return of all the tanks:
Put the Vanquisher, Tank Destroyer, Autocannon leman russ, Medusa, Manticore In the list
Add the baneblade in as a 2x Heavy support choice option

Retsore the armored company list
Allow an IC to be taken as a "Tank Commander" HQ choice who would make Leman Russes Troop choices if he was taken

FIX the Elites and HQ Choices for Advisors
None of these are really ICs, make them all squad options for existing sqauds and remove their IC status: fixed (scrap the doctrines to take them)

Combined Imperial Armies
Redress the allies rules for IG: Bring Back Harlequins with them, and redefine the ally for Kroot Mercs
Simplify the allied rules, essentially any imperial armies can be combined at any points level as long as the force org requirements for both codices are met


What I predict we will get:

Removal of doctrines and the complete disapearance of light infantry, drop armies, abhumans, and cameoline etc, Vanilla IG Only that match the models currently sold. Removal of all the units that aren't sold as units or dont have box sets or models: the heavy Platoon entirely, no new allied rules, exact same units for rats, ogryns and IC characters as current codex, possible removal of the conscript unit also. Some tinkering with characters. Innexplicable inclusion of the flawed CC units RRs and Ogryns even though they have never had a regiment/unit box. Just like the dameons and chaos codexes, fewer options, themed down armies, everyone is the same.

Remeber, you are a precious unique snowflake,

...

JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284552.page GMT DA, Chaos .. no more legions,ravenwing,deathwing etc.
for the folks who voted yes hoping for a change lets face it some lists didn't work or were so restricted it wasn't funny IMO
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284569.page GMT
I really like the eb and flow of the comments. Particularly Polonius even handed writing. Huzah!

I voted yes, I would love to see a new IG dex. I am terified by the concept though as I do not like the new lockstep (limited options we have seen in the current dexes: Chaos and Daemons are both total failures IMO).

What the IG dex really needs is, to stay the same structure wise and have all the odd units corrected. I seriously doubt this would be what we actually get because of the direction of ciurrent codex development ie: Chaos Codex and Daemon COdex. What everyone wanted there: Chaos as a side; Daemons, lots of chaos options and some nod to the LATD codex to make it work somehow, what we got: Codex Spikey Marines and Codex Deep Striking Nidzilla. I'm afraid thats what will happen to IG. I expect we will get no more doctrines, and all the same awful problems with all the existing units, combined with a creamy whipped topping of units removal! In fact I wouldn't be surprised to see the heavy company as a formation disapear entirely and the old tank units (like mortar medusas and the autocannon leman russ and vanquisher) to all stay dead.

What'd I'd like:

Viable CC Options
Fix Ogryns, ripper guns are rending, lower point cost, attached in the HQ or as an Elite choice, Bonehead gets a power weapon
Fix Roughriders, why do they have the only weapon in the game that breaks? They always have power weapons, they get the bonus everytime they charge
Add Jump Pack IG back, with flamers
IG Commanders are not ICs, just take it away from them, then they would work right in HtH in their squads, and a power glove might be ok.

Multiple Troop Options
Remove the limits for conscripts and Armored fist squads ratio to platoons, totally unnecesary
Restore Penal Battalions, Units that you can SHOOT INTO THE CC they are involved in, 3 or 4 points each BS2 LD7, failed leadership checks are automatically passed by
a loss of models equal to the difference (Bomb Collars)
Make Veterans, Storm Troopers and Grenadiers all Troop Choices
Make a roughrider Platoon a Troop choice

Return of all the tanks:
Put the Vanquisher, Tank Destroyer, Autocannon leman russ, Medusa, Manticore In the list
Add the baneblade in as a 2x Heavy support choice option

Retsore the armored company list
Allow an IC to be taken as a "Tank Commander" HQ choice who would make Leman Russes Troop choices if he was taken

FIX the Elites and HQ Choices for Advisors
None of these are really ICs, make them all squad options for existing sqauds and remove their IC status: fixed (scrap the doctrines to take them)

Combined Imperial Armies
Redress the allies rules for IG: Bring Back Harlequins with them, and redefine the ally for Kroot Mercs
Simplify the allied rules, essentially any imperial armies can be combined at any points level as long as the force org requirements for both codices are met


What I predict we will get:

Removal of doctrines and the complete disapearance of light infantry, drop armies, abhumans, and cameoline etc, Vanilla IG Only that match the models currently sold. Removal of all the units that aren't sold as units or dont have box sets or models: the heavy Platoon entirely, no new allied rules, exact same units for rats, ogryns and IC characters as current codex, possible removal of the conscript unit also. Some tinkering with characters. Innexplicable inclusion of the flawed CC units RRs and Ogryns even though they have never had a regiment/unit box. Just like the dameons and chaos codexes, fewer options, themed down armies, everyone is the same.

Remeber, you are a precious unique snowflake,

...

JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!
[/quote]

yea what he said! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284585.page GMT
For me it's Option D) [i]What's the worst that could happen[/i]. At the very least, a change will be interesting. I doubt they can make Ogryns, GLs, MLs and ratlings worse than they are today, so why not give them a ride on the ol' Reshuffleometer and see what comes out?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284614.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284628.page GMT [/quote]

Thanks, when I write a long one like that I sometimes wonder if anyone reads it all, heh.

Lets hope for a verbose codex season instead of the abbreviated codices they have been publishing! Recycle the fluff, write more rules instead of the other way 'round says I!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284683.page GMT [/quote]

Thanks, when I write a long one like that I sometimes wonder if anyone reads it all, heh.

Lets hope for a verbose codex season instead of the abbreviated codices they have been publishing! Recycle the fluff, write more rules instead of the other way 'round says I![/quote]

I read it, too. I don't agree with all of it, but at least there are people still that interested in fate of the poor bloody infantry.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284746.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284749.page GMT GW is out of ideas. we can either have no doctrines and all armies will eventually look the same or we keep the current codex with the possibility of having a different army on the field. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284754.page GMT More like:
Against Change:
-fear of loss of options
-fear of straight jacket vanilla list only
-fear of invalidated armies
-fear GW will go at the codex with a sledgehammer to fix "imbalances."
-fear concerns of maneuver/objective warfare will not be addressed.
[/quote]

I don't do this often, and I am loathe to do it even now, but:

[b]QFT[/b]

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/284902.page GMT QFT meant. Thanks HBMC. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285017.page GMT IG get their sub-par doctrines buffed &/or bundled with those popular ones... And make them less dependant on those ownyou-lisks...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285025.page GMT GW will redo the codex, and do so to fit the current "vision" of design, for better or worse.

I expect doctrines as they stand now to dissapear.

What I would like to see tho, is for many of the doctrines to be folded up into either the standard rules for the guardsman, or into a form of a traits system.

If I were planning the Guard codex, I would shoot for a codex that would allow for all types of human armies, regardless of allegience.

The idea being, when you create your army, you make say 3 choices that will influence your gear/allies, etc.

Choice 1 : Are you Loyal, Xenos Influenced, or Chaos Corrupted ?

This decision would result in different options for allied units, but also adjust basic units. Loyal units would have free/discounted Priests, Chaos Corrupted would have free Psykers. Conscripts in Chaos Corrupted armies would become mutants with no armor and just 2 hand weapons, but could be given Chaos banners to benefit from marks of Chaos.

Obviously Loyal armies would be able to take allies from the Inquisition Codecies, whereas Xenos/Chaos could take Troop choices, such as Chaos Marines, or Kroot/Fire Warriors, either as actual Troop choices or perhaps as elites choices.

Choice 2 : Is your regiment provided with Light Armor, Standard, or Heavy Armor.

This decision most directly influences your armor saves. But could also influence things like Infiltration, Scouting, Chameoline, Tank availability.

Choice 3 : What is your training level? Feral, Line, Hardened

This choice directly effects leadership choices, but might also open other options. Such as Feral troops having the option to go with pistol/ccw.


Just ideas really, and alot of this would need some simplification based on GWs current 'vision'. Maybe just simply use the first choice, Loyal, Xenos, Chaos.

Ultimately the goal is to allow people to play not just generic Imperial Guard, but Hordes of Chaos, Genestealer Cults, Tau Loyalists, etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211088/285065.page GMT