http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/18.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
I don't want to touch flayed ones with a ten-foot pole.

Then I saw Pariahs. In my eyes, the models are pretty good-looking, the fluff and imagery is awesome, the stat-line is strong, and the weapon load out is wicked. So why the hell don't they ever see the table? Sure they aren't 'necrons' and don't stand back up. Sure they can't be teleported around like every other 'necron' can. But is there no way to make this unit viable?

Are they just doomed to be a point sink?

I want to use them, but at their price can I afford to?

Thanks for any advice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287441.page GMT
Lack
Of
The
"Necron"
Rule]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287450.page GMT WBB saves, Pariahs do not. Besides Phase-out and possibly other considerations.

There was a tactica on BoLS using Pariahs in Apocolypse. Redeploy them and attack Super-heavies in close combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287521.page GMT
I think that the objection to their non-Necron status isn't a problem so long as you don't use them in heavy combination with other non-Necron unit choices, so they won't deplete the army's Phase Out number beyond what it already is.

Regarding the objection to their Assault capabilities, namely being their limited number of attacks and comparatively low Initiative, having a Necron Lord join them and use Wargear to compensate helps - the Gaze of Flame, the Solar Pulse, Lightening Field, and Chronometron all benefit units of Pariahs.

Their relative brittle-ness in close combat can also be alleviated somewhat by having them assault in combination with some unit like Scarabs, Warriors, and Flayed Ones (particularly Scarabs and Flayed Ones), but that also applies to Wraiths. Intermixing a unit of Warriors among Pariahs will also protect them somewhat from an assault.

Essentially the value of Pariahs is their synergy with other elements of the Necron army, not what they can do on their own. Expect them to die expensively if left unsupported, and expect them to waste points if they aren't supporting another unit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287545.page GMT WBB.

I overlooked the fact that they are I3 A1. They suck in close combat against infantry, too.

They do have their cool leadership rule. You can take 4 for 144 points if you think it is worth it for that. They are also fearless, which is always good, but WBB is better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287556.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287557.page GMT
Where Pariahs don't have We'll Be Back, they also don't have the subtle weaknesses that We'll Be Back encourages. Likewise with their impact on the Necron Phase Out - sure they don't contribute models, but they don't subtract models from that total when they are eventually killed.

Another good point is the I3 A1 - they won't take care of any units by themselves, but in combination with another units such as Flayed Ones (and a Lord with a Chronometron) they can clean up.

Also, good point about the Fearless - they can't be Pinned like most Necron units, and they'll never get taken in a Sweeping Advance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287566.page GMT
And don't diss the Flayed Ones Cannoness, they're quite nice when used well and I'm rather fond of mine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287575.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287590.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287610.page GMT
Pariahs do not suffer from Sweeping Advance.

Pinning, particular with Dark Eldar Horrorfexes and Terrorfexes, but also numerous weapons like Sniper Rifles and Pulse Carbines, can pin units of Necrons down while you assault nearby Necron Lords, Tomb Spyders, and similar units.

Pariahs do not suffer from Pinning.

Tank Shock, while risky thanks to the Gauss rule, can be used to spread Necrons around the board. If you're very lucky you can catch a unit of Necrons below 50% strength, and they will not be able to rally (unless they pick up stragglers, but that's why you escort them off the board at a 4" remove). We'll Be Back does you little good if you are falling back away from a Resurrection Orb or Tomb Spyder.

Pariahs can always Death or Glory, and their Warscythe guarantees some sort of damage. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287672.page GMT 2d6+5 is far, far too undependable for anything over AV 12. And even then you're risking a whole lot of points.

In practice, it is very very difficult to deny Rez Orb/WBB. Most necron armies are specifically designed, built, and strategized to make sure everything always gets back up. Primarily because if you can't, Necrons are just overcosted, undergunned Marines.

Also in practice, Pariahs are outshot by Immortals and Destoyers, and are terrible in CC. Their best possible CC target, Terminators, tend to break even after a few rounds. Necrons in general are weak in CC. Pariahs are bad, Flayed Ones are bad, Wraiths are bad (for winning CC). Scarabs are actually pretty dangerous, and Spyders are good but only for countercharge.

Pin LD 10. Right. Gigantic concern there.

Admittedly, the pariah + flayed one combo isn't bad. Similarly pariahs + any form of winning CC unit can be dangerous. Too bad the pariahs are not deliverable. You have to march the pariahs across the board and have one live, or hope your opponent comes to you, is beatable in CC, and isn't fearless.

Many opponents will just blow the pariahs off the table, since they give just about the best points/firepower invested ratio.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287719.page GMT 2D6 reliable? Compared to rolling a 6 on 1D6, which is what you're get other-wise if someone tried a tank-shock?

In practice if you're creative enough to just turtle-up around around a Resurrection Orb, then you're meat.

Pinning Leadership 10 should be a concern. Weapons such as the Horrorfex and Terrorfex can seriously reduce that. Weapons such as the Sniper Rifle, Pulse Carbine and such can be brought in large quantities, ensuring several opportunities to fail.

Pariahs don't need to be "deliverable". All they have to do is hang around. They don't need to be in close combat for their special rules to affect its outcome.

If you want to deliver them in close combat though, they combine well with Flayed Ones and Scarabs because those troops can get stuck in early against the troops that would otherwise threaten the Pariahs, such as Havocs and Devastators. As mentioned embedding the Pariah unit amongst a unit of Warriors (and behind the first rank or two of warriors), and you can screen them from shooting somewhat (target priority tests) and put them in position to counter-assault if someone tries to charge them first.

Moreover they have a Gauss Blaster so they have equivalent firepower to Immortals, and it's an assault weapon so that they can advance with impunity. An opponent's best chance against beating Necrons is close combat, so either they close with you and can be counter-assault, or they get to sit at round and get eaten by Gauss blasts.

Adding a Lord with the Solar Pulse is damned handy for preserving Pariahs, forcing attacking units to follow the Night Fight rules (or if the Night Fight rules are in effect, remove them for a turn of accurate firepower with the Gauss Blasters).

The Gaze of Flame, in combination with Pariahs, is handy for removing the charge bonus, while the Lightening Field is fantastic for those massive stacks of wounds caused by stuff like Genestealers and Harlequins (although it essentially reduces the Pariahs to expensive bait). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287772.page GMT 2d6+5 against a vehicle over a gauss weapon any day! Your average roll is going to be a 12, with a chance to pen. AV14. Sounds good to me.

Something that's been mentioned in other forums but hasn't shown up here yet is the efficacy of Pariahs when coupled with the Deceiver. When dealing with other high ldshp armies, this can be a nasty combo, with the Pariahs dropping ldshp, the Deceiver blocking LOS to some of the Pariahs and forcing ldshp checks, and maybe some scarabs to keep the Pariahs out of any unfavorable assaults that might come your way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287879.page GMT
I think they'd synergize better with the Nightbringer, since the Nightbringer would be a definite threat to anything planning to assault nearby Pariahs, while its Lightening Arc complements the Pariah's Gauss Blasters by keeping vehicles off their backs.

Both combinations are freakishly expensive though. I'd rather go for the Necron Lord joining the unit for the reasons I mentioned earlier. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287891.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287919.page GMT 2D6 to avoid rolling on I2 for a Sweeping Advance. That is, of course, if they manage to beat the Necrons under half-strength, and outnumber them 4:1. More likely they'll just be rolling on an 8 or 9, depending on the number of attackers, the number of wounds, and so on.

Incidentally that's why I like Dreadnoughts so much, aside from their ability to mulch Orks: a Dreadnought supporting an assault will add some serious out-numbering muscle to the combat resolution.

As any Necron player with basic 40k skills would know to just remove all the casualties in base to base contact, any player with basic 40k skills would know to place as many charging models in base to base contact as possible to minimize that risk. Morever a player with basic skills would not rely on a single unit to break a unit of Necrons in a single round. I think it's safe to assume we all know the basics here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287964.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/287989.page GMT Where Pariahs don't have We'll Be Back, they also don't have the subtle weaknesses that We'll Be Back encourages. [b]Likewise with their impact on the Necron Phase Out - sure they don't contribute models, but they don't subtract models from that total when they are eventually killed. [/b][/quote]

That last bold part right there is what clinches it for me. You don't even have to wait till they get killed to get yourself closer to being phased out, they lower that threshold right up front! Yay!

There is no reason to fear them getting into melee with your vehicle unless you put them there. There is no reason to worry about them getting into melee at all unless you accept it, and if you do you can just direct your attacks at them to try and drop them first. There is no reason to even shoot them if there are any other targets like Immortals floating around.

So, by all means, put as many in your list as possible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288007.page GMT
In general there is a certain acceptable % of non necron units in a necron army. With this being relatively low by all accounts, unless you plan on not taking a monolith there is pretty much no reason whatsoever to be taking pariahs in any number. Since their lack of attacks and initiative has allready been pointed out, I think that taking them in numbers is the only way to be effective. Most people aren't willing to take more than 4 or 5 which gives you a whole 5 power weapon attacks, which many basic infantry units can nearly match, but for too many points.

The arguement can be made for the existance of pariahs, but when compared to equivalent units they fall seriously short and thus they are rarely included in armies and almost never in any ammount to make a reasonable difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288023.page GMT CC attack to pop that pesky Dreadnought that charged them, a couple of stronger shots, and the area effect LD modifier. The Pariah gets protection of being picked out and shot.

The drawbacks are you still get one less "Necron" and the unit would lose the ability to be teleported because of it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288144.page GMT Apoc) is because they cost double the points of a warrior, I'd rather take 10 warriors than 5 Pariahs.

The close combat weakness (1 attack) is annoying, granted they can shoot then assault, but it doesnt seem worth it, Id rather have scarabs or flayed ones, both of which I've found to be more durable and deadly.

In the end though it comes down to personal preference, if you like them take them, but make sure yopu can capitalise on their strengths, and failing that, wait for 5th Ed and run like hell!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288629.page GMT
A pariah costs alot of points, and they don't benefit from the Necron rules. However, whenever I used to play Necrons, I would ignore non-necron units in an attempt to force phase out unless I felt *compelled* to take care of it (Nightbringer about to charge gun line or something). So while WBB adds to the durability of necrons, not having it tends to get you ignored - especially for a unit that doesn't have the fearsome rep of Monoliths and C'Tan.

This doesn't mean I think they are, to quote Anchorman, "The Balls," but thye seem like a pretty good addition for what if otherwise an extremely boring army to play -- in certain circumstances. I'll list a couple of them below and some caveats. I'm no tactical genius (I get about 6 games in a year) so take all this with a grain of salt.

I'll preface this by saying that if you already have a monolith and/or C'tan, it's probably not worth adding more non-necron units unless you're spamming warriors.

Horde Orks: You've got a unit that can shoot like an immortal and reduce Orkish LD when the charge (inevitably) comes. combine with Lord w/goodies and some scarabs and you've got a decent counter-assault force. Against MeQs, you've got a unit that tears up loyalist terminators and can be a cut through all those INV saves that Chaos gets. One last technique, and I'm breaking my own advice above, is that when using Deceiver as counter-charge, you use a small unit of them hiding behind warriors (for 4+ invulnerable). Deceiver takes the charge/charges assaulters, with pariahs moving up to either assist and/or reduce LD.

Again, I'm not saying they are great additions to any tournament winning force, but a small unit of 5 doesn't exactly break the bank and you get a somewhat useful NEW addition to a necron force.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288670.page GMT LD when the charge (inevitably) comes.[/quote]

I'd be more worried about getting them to lose combat in the first place. Pariahs won't help there.

[quote]Against MeQs, you've got a unit that tears up loyalist terminators and can be a cut through all those INV saves that Chaos gets.[/quote]

Only if you get the charge (and with a unit of 5 Pariahs, maybe not even then if the Termie unit hasn't already taken casualties). Both loyalist and Chaos Termies win out otherwise. It can work as a deterrent, I guess, but to put things into perspective, the points for 8.33 Pariahs gets you the Deceiver instead, a way better deterrent that pretty much [i]everyone[/i] fears, not just overpriced generalists like Termies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/288682.page GMT CC unit.

Or change them from a unit into something like the Inquisitor armies Death Cult Assassins.

The fundamental problem with Pariahs is that if they ever become a threat to the opponent, they can simply be killed rapidly and easily due to their poor resilience and small numbers/high cost.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289106.page GMT
Best idea for a new Codex, right there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289252.page GMT CC attack to pop that pesky Dreadnought that charged them, a couple of stronger shots, and the area effect LD modifier. The Pariah gets protection of being picked out and shot.

The drawbacks are you still get one less "Necron" and the unit would lose the ability to be teleported because of it.[/quote]

That was my idea. Kind of, anyway.

I've since come to the conclusion that they need to be blown up and given a defined role, and what makes the most sense to me is for them to be based around an expanded and altered Soulless rule. In fluff terms, how much sense does it make that the Necrontyr would give those precious Pariahs an axe and send them to the front? Pariahs' value is in their Pariah gene...ergo, make their rules reflect that and downplay the shooty/assaulty angle. That eliminates comparisons with Immortals and leaves the counterassault stuff to Scarabs and Wraiths (the latter of which I think should be the ones carrying phase blades).

So instead of "veteran sergeant," think "embedded terror weapon."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289298.page GMT
I would be more inclined to take them if they had the WBB rule, it would make them a bit more durable, albeit probably more expensive still]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289310.page GMT
That's it exactly. The army's playstyle should reflect the fluff. Necrons are supposed to be the scary army...so make 'em scary on the tabletop.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289316.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289354.page GMT
With the ability to teleport out of hand to hand and the necron's already high leadership, not to mention that there are likely to be huge numbers of necrons crouded around said lord, I question the viability (but not the possibility) of this tactic. While you might be able to do a significant amount of damage to the necrons, unless you bring hordes of guys into the scrum (orcs), you are not going to have enough in there to get the heavy outnumber bonuses you need to actually break the leadership 10 necrons.

[quote]Pinning, particular with Dark Eldar Horrorfexes and Terrorfexes, but also numerous weapons like Sniper Rifles and Pulse Carbines, can pin units of Necrons down while you assault nearby Necron Lords, Tomb Spyders, and similar units. [/quote]

There is an 8% chance that necrons fail a pin check. That's so low that its hardly be worth considering as a viable option. On average you need 12 different units to cause casualties to a necron unit to pin them. By that point, the unit is almost dead anyway.

[quote]
Tank Shock, while risky thanks to the Gauss rule, can be used to spread Necrons around the board. If you're very lucky you can catch a unit of Necrons below 50% strength, and they will not be able to rally (unless they pick up stragglers, but that's why you escort them off the board at a 4" remove). We'll Be Back does you little good if you are falling back away from a Resurrection Orb or Tomb Spyder.[/quote]

You have to stay within 6" of the necron unit to escorte them off the board. While falling back, they can still shoot their gauss weapons twice at 12" every turn. That sounds like a dead tank long before the necrons run off the board. Of course, they also have to fail their leadership test to fall back in the first place and that isn't very likely.

All in all, while pariahs can be a useful addition to a necron force, I believe that their point cost and non-necron status tends to seriously detract from your phase out number. If you are running a foot force without a monolith or a C-tan, you may have enough spare points around to pick up some pariahs. On the other hand, if you have lots of other goodies in your army, you are going to need to save thoes points from the pariahs can focus them on units that are going to keep you from phasing out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289374.page GMT
Remember also that the Necrons make one Pinning test for each unit firing Pinning weapons at them. This is one situation where combat squads shine, to create more pinning tests for a unit to fail during a turn. Moreover tanks like the Whirlwind inflict an additional -1, and Terrorfexes/Horrorfexes can inflict much greater modifiers.

The point of tank-shocking isn't to chase the Necrons off the board, although that can be fun, the point of the tank-shock is to break up the phalanx and cut units of from the Necron Lord bearing a Resurrection Orb. Remember that models don't need to fail their Morale test to get pushed out of the way by an oncoming tank.

The Pariahs simply move out of the way, without any worry about losing the benefit of the Resurrection Orb, and with a distinctly good chance of simply chopping the offending tank in half if you really want to Death or Glory it.

Their point-cost and non-Necron status only detracts from the Phase Out number when it's stacked on topic of that of Monoliths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders (and other non-Necron units). The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289392.page GMT
And you wonder why I cannot take what you say seriously.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289394.page GMT WBB because they can't do it anyway! AWESOME!

Pariahs also remove phase out bodies by virtue of opportunity cost recall. 5 pariahs is what, 10 warriors? 5-6 immortals? Both of which are tough models to kill. The trouble is that they do not add much of anything above the value of immortals, and comparing them to a monolith which greatly boosts the value of your other troops is silly. Compared to say Tomb Spiders and Scarabs you might have a point, but one really has to ask which adds the greater utility and synergy to the army. Pariahs pale in comparison.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289407.page GMT Their point-cost and non-Necron status only detracts from the Phase Out number when it's stacked on topic of that of Monoliths, Scarabs, and Tomb Spyders (and other non-Necron units). The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless. [/quote]

Who uses tomb spyders?

If all of the weapons are going at the necrons, you will phase out and so it won't matter that they didn't shoot the Pariahs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289438.page GMT
By giving Spyders the Carnifex treatment (lotsa options and a killer plastic kit) and fixing Pariahs and Wraiths (not that Wraiths are completely terrible, it's just that they could be so much more), you'd have yourself a much more interesting army.

I hope Necrons are assigned to Phil Kelly. He'd do a good job with them.

One note -- Nurglitch is right about terrorfexes and horrorfexes. You daren't use the veil if your opponent is fielding them. On the other hand, what Monoliths do to DE is just obscene. It more than balances out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289443.page GMT DE in your area, there is not much that Pariahs are going to help against there. Being ignored by spikey elves is not much different from being ignored by everyone else. Though the spikey elves will totally be making fun of your at their parties, but since the pariahs won't be invited, it won't matter.
A monolith is so much better against DE than pariahs that it isn't even funny. Of course, you could write almost any army in for "DE" in that sentance and have a true statement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289457.page GMT
You get 10 Pariahs for the price of the Nightbringer. Both are fearless, and the question is, which one is harder to kill. The other thing to consider is that after Pariahs get to your lines and there are only three of them left they are not anyway near as powerful as a Nightbringer when he is down to 2/3 wounds. The Nightbringer is also only harmed by Powerfists, while the Pariahs are T5 I3 3+ so may not even get their attacks off.

Basically, their leadership rule is cool. Fearless is cool. But they are just not that great.

The other thing, regarding Sweeping advance. If all you are looking for is Fearless, Scarab Swarms and Tomb Spiders provide the same at lower cost with more options.

They _do_ have a shooting attack, to their credit. Something that none of these options provides.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289481.page GMT Possible but it is dependent on how far they end up fleeing. If they are still near your tank after they flee, your tank is getting killed. So I would still consider this unreliable at best.

[quote]
Secondly there is an easy source of out-numbering: Dreadnoughts. They are cheap, count as ten models, and bring a few hits to the combat. It's certainly a viable tactic, it you're willing to go all in. [/quote]
Apparently I'm missing something. How is it you plan to get a dreadnaught into hand to hand with necrons? Dreadnaughts move 6 (just like necrons) and every single necron has a weapon that can kill the dreadnaught from 24" away. There is simply no way any decent necron player will allow you to get that close with a dreadnaught. They will simply back off and/or shoot the dreadnaught to death long before it hits their lines.

[quote]
Remember also that the Necrons make one Pinning test for each unit firing Pinning weapons at them. This is one situation where combat squads shine, to create more pinning tests for a unit to fail during a turn. Moreover tanks like the Whirlwind inflict an additional -1, and Terrorfexes/Horrorfexes can inflict much greater modifiers.[/quote]
While I agree that terrorfexes and horrorfexes can be useful, other pinning weapons are not so much. In order to cause a pin check, you have to actually kill a necron (T4, 3+ save) with a pinning weapon. Possible, but not the easiest thing in the world to do. After that they have to fail a leadership 10 check. So like I said before, it takes an average of 12 pin checks to actually get them to fail a test. This jumps down to 6 if you use ordanance weapons like a whirlwind that give a -1. So over 2 turns, 3 whirlwinds will pin one unit once assuming that each one kills at least one necron every time it fires. That sounds like a huge waste of points to me.

[quote]
The point of tank-shocking isn't to chase the Necrons off the board, although that can be fun, the point of the tank-shock is to break up the phalanx and cut units of from the Necron Lord bearing a Resurrection Orb. Remember that models don't need to fail their Morale test to get pushed out of the way by an oncoming tank. [/quote]
Breaking up the phalanx is good in theory, but to do it, you have to end a turn with your tank sitting smack in the middle of said phalanx (since only models that are under the tank when it stops are actually moved). On the necron turn, that's one dead tank. It also isn't likely to move models far enough away from the orb to keep them from being affected by it (you'll probably need 2 or 3 tanks to really separate units from the orb).


[quote]The interesting thing is that you can use that affect on the Phase Out to sucker your opponent into redirecting firepower at units affecting the Phase Out, basically giving your Pariahs a free ticket to get in close and do some Soulless. [/quote]
That is shaky at best. While the necron opponent is likely to focus more on "necron" units than others (like the pariahs), I don't think that's a huge boon to the non-necron units. It doesn't matter what the pariahs do, if you run out of "necron" units, you lose the game. So any good necron player needs to make sure that they can keep the required number of "necrons" alive. Res orbs, teleporting, and more bodies to raise the "necron" count are all ways to accomplish this. Diluting your "necron" count with non-"necron" units does not help you. The necron army is really one where every choice you make has to be weighed against the opportunity cost of being able to spend those points on more necrons.
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Regarding pinning, five Sniper Rifles or a Whirlwind missile barrage have a fairly decent chance of wounding a T4 Sv3+ model.

Likewise you don't need to break a unit of Necrons to move them out of the 6" Orb range, especially with tank shock. Gauss is nasty, but a cheap-ass Rhino or three with extra armour or possession can plough into a phalanx and break them up enough just by moving them out of its path that you can put the Necrons down with heavy weapons. Warscythes, with their reliable ability to cause penetrating hits via Death or Glory, throw a wrench into the equation.

Now I'm not saying that Pariahs are great. Far from it, but they benefit from synergy with other Necron units, particularly Lords, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, and other seldom seen Necron units. Whether they're worth taking depends on the other units you have in your Necron force.

I mean, I know dismissing non-obvious units out of hand is the received wisdom of Dakka Dakka, but I think it shows more skill to figure out these non-obvious units and make them work. At the end of the day at least you don't have yet another boring cookie-cutter Dakka-approved army list.

Anyhow, I've contributed my ideas about what Pariahs can do, and they've been rubbished in good Dakka fashion. I guess it's up to Lady Canoness to decide what she wants to do with her army now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289507.page GMT LD thing works and keepthem safe. I then use 2 10 man squads of Scarabs to surrond units and force break checks. I also use the deciever to jack fearless.

In on game I crossfired 2 marine units and the chaplain and unit in one turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289520.page GMT
That is what you do not understand. Not only that, this is a slight against the rest of us that you share a forum with. I listened to you just fine, and it is my opinion as a veteran gamer that you are mistaken. Immortals, Necrons and C'tan all three provide a better use of points than Pariahs do.

The Necron list is an old one, and Pariahs have been around the block. They just don't have the resiliency that Immortals do, and their close combat ability is marginal. They protect against sweeping advance, true, which is even more reason to shoot them dead before they get there.

They are an atypical underused elite unit in 40k. They have powerful abilitities and a high points cost but disproportionate defensiveness. Couple in their lack of mobility and you have FAIL.

They were more useful in 3rd edition when you could screen them. You can hide them behind a C'tan or Terrain but then they can't shoot. They have an interesting leadership abiliity that does not (I believe) require line of sight. Pity that you pay minimum 144 points for the privledge. The necron list is similiar to Witchhunters, another list with underperforming elite units. They just don't stack up against basic troopers point for point, Sisters because of BS4 Bolter/ 3+ and Necrons because of the WBB save.

Pity they were never given FNP, because it would be a different story.

-------
Actually you know what, here's a tactic that might work. They could work as a reserve. You keep them well back from the line. So say their leadership ability is only used in Turn 5 or even Turn 6. The first turn or so they don't do anything, but they march up and provide some support fire. Maybe their leadership rule comes into play at some point and help force a squad off the table.

Too bad Immortals used aggressively are still better.
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You see, I'm not interested in what your experiences may prejudice for you. There's a reason the plural of "anecdote" is not data: people's personal experiences are prone to all sorts of selection bias.

I've seen too many "under-performing" units used effectively to give much credence to popular opinion on what is and is not an effective unit. Back at the end of 3rd edition, for example, a friend of mine became the Canadian Grand Champion using an Eldar army including Rangers, Fire Prisms, and Shining Spears. Popular opinion asserted that one couldn't win a game using these units, but he showed otherwise.

Your apparent lack of experience with Pariah, the evidence for which I'm taking your unfamiliarity with the Soulless rule (you got it right, by the way) suggests to me that you simply never figured out how to use them. Granted, if a unit is difficult to use, then it's understandable that you weren't willing to take the beatings that would have helped you learn them, because some people simply can't deal with losing all the time. Likewise it's understandable that you weren't able to figure out how to use Pariahs, I never would have figured out Shining Spears or Fire Prisms in 3rd edition, it took someone smarter.

I'm glad Lady Canoness brought this up because I'm interested in the tactics that a unit of Pariahs might allow a Necron player to apply to their game. I think it would be cool to figure these guys out particularly since they look so weak at first glance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289608.page GMT
Seperate from everything else I say below, you should explain what you mean by this to me. I think I am too stupid to understand you. Try and reference Kuhn, Popper and Lakatos, maybe that will help.

----------
So when I say things like, "While their offense abilities are comparable to other units in the codex, they are lacking in resiliency and mobility in tune with their points cost," that statement is not something you want to hear? You gave your 2c, we listened, we answered back. We are not playing thousands of Necron games here, with Pariahs and without to find out if they are any good. We are having a discussion that is mostly theoryhammer.

[quote=Nurglitch]

I've seen too many "under-performing" units used effectively to give much credence to popular opinion on what is and is not an effective unit. Back at the end of 3rd edition, for example, a friend of mine became the Canadian Grand Champion using an Eldar army including Rangers, Fire Prisms, and Shining Spears. Popular opinion asserted that one couldn't win a game using these units, but he showed otherwise.
[/quote]

http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/events_coverage.htm

which one is it?

[quote=Nurglitch]
Your apparent lack of experience with Pariah, the evidence for which I'm taking your unfamiliarity with the Soulless rule (you got it right, by the way) suggests to me that you simply never figured out how to use them. Granted, if a unit is difficult to use, then it's understandable that you weren't willing to take the beatings that would have helped you learn them, because some people simply can't deal with losing all the time. Likewise it's understandable that you weren't able to figure out how to use Pariahs, I never would have figured out Shining Spears or Fire Prisms in 3rd edition, it took someone smarter.

I'm glad Lady Canoness brought this up because I'm interested in the tactics that a unit of Pariahs might allow a Necron player to apply to their game. I think it would be cool to figure these guys out particularly since they look so weak at first glance. [/quote]

that's true enough. They have strengths. But not once in this thread have you admitted that they have weaknesses, as well. Or rather you have not been willing to consider they may not be that great. And it is insulting to us when you suggest that we are not listening to you, when many of us have recognized your arguments and then re-iterated our own. They do not have resiliency that matches their points cost. That, and it is at least worth considering that there are units, with more effective resiliency/ mobility that at least match them in offense.

I don't want to be insulting, OK. It is obvious to me, and to many other players, just like it is to you, that they may have a use. Hiding them and taking them only for their souless rule is one. Fearless is another. We established that. That's fine. We then went on to talk of practical list building, and Pariahs are rarely worthwhile. That doesn't mean that your initial comments of their obvious strengths wasn't a worthwhile thing to say.

My issue I took with you was your suggestion we were not listening. We listened just fine.
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As for anything I have "admitted", we are not engaged in the sort of discussion where there are winners and losers, where things can be "admitted" as though extracted by force. I don't need to admit the weaknesses of Pariahs, much like I don't need to admit their strengths. What I need to discuss, to carry on this conversation in a constructive manner, is what they can do, not what I think they should do (strengths) or what I think they are not good at (weaknesses). Hence saying that they are not resilient enough for their points cost firstly ignores what can be done to protect them (such as combining them with a Lord, etc), and secondly ignores the inherent pointlessness of "efficiency per point" arguments (because those arguments pre-suppose tactics, and presuppose different uses are used for the same tactics).

Perhaps you take it as insulting that I might suggest you aren't bothering to listen to me, but when I'm not offering "efficiency per point" arguments, or really any arguments at all, then it seems right that I should point out that you're ignoring not only what I'm saying, but how I'm saying it. The fact is that if you were listening to me, paying attention and addressing what I was saying in like manner, then we would be having a very different conversation.

Since you're more interested in me than in proposing tactics to exploit Pariahs in a Necron army, I'll bow out of the conversation so it can continue on topic.

Incidentally, here's the reference: http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/Games_Day_2004/Conflict_finals/home.htm

Dave's the guy in the loud shirt. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289657.page GMT
1) You said stuff.
2) We said stuff.
3) ...
4) You said,

[quote]I mean, I know dismissing non-obvious units out of hand is the received wisdom of Dakka Dakka, but I think it shows more skill to figure out these non-obvious units and make them work.[/quote]

We were not dismissing them 'out of hand'. We were offering very valid critism. There is no 'percieved wisdom of Dakka Dakka', this isn't Warseer.

And I am not 'interested in you'. I was insulted.

Now, not to nitpick I don't see any Rangers or Shining Spears . I see Banshees and Scorpions in Wave Serpents, a Vyper, a Fire Prism and I _think_ I see a Falcon, but it may very well be a second Fire Prism. Looks like a pretty typical 3rd ed Biel Tan list to me. Shining Spears would not be a bad fit in that list, give them some second turn assault or a bit of tank hunting maybe. I may very well actually have that Canadian WD supplement I will have to try and dig it out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289693.page GMT DE in your area, there is not much that Pariahs are going to help against there. Being ignored by spikey elves is not much different from being ignored by everyone else. Though the spikey elves will totally be making fun of your at their parties, but since the pariahs won't be invited, it won't matter.
A monolith is so much better against DE than pariahs that it isn't even funny. Of course, you could write almost any army in for "DE" in that sentance and have a true statement.[/quote]

Hilarious! You too should get a podcast. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289749.page GMT
I don't plan on using a monolith (I want to have lots and lots and lots of dudes!), so I might give a (small) unit of Pariahs a shot so that I can have even more nasty special abilities hiding out in the phalanx.

Keep posting though, if anyone has a good way of making Pariahs, well, good, then let me know!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289961.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289973.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289976.page GMT
The reason Pariahs aren't played isn't that they are atrocious, or dreadful, but merely that Immortals are superb, and share their slot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/289980.page GMT

That's why I think they need a complete overhaul and distinct, defined role. Make the players mull over an apples-to-oranges comparison instead of apples-to-apples (or crabapples as the case may be). When two units in the same org slot have a lot in common, one is bound to suffer by comparison. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290001.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290029.page GMT
I'm a Necron player and I'm more than aware that there are also differences between the units. I'd just like to see fewer or no similarities at all, as I think Pariahs would then have a better chance to shine.

Whether you think their roles are completely different or not, most players end up comparing the two units because of some of their shared qualities. I think more differentiation would drive some new thinking and more diversity among Necron armies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290108.page GMT HtH that they are significantly superior to Immortals in that regard. When it comes down to it you are trading points, WBB, and Necron bodies for a Ld penalty to units within 12", and a slightly superior melee ability. It just doesn't make sense.

Now, maybe in 5th with screening and a new Necron codex that writes out Phase out that trade might be a bit better. Even better would be lowering their points, giving them WBB (or FNP or whatever) and increasing their attacks to at least 2 base, or some combination there of. However, not matter how much better they will be in 5th, they still are a poor choice now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290416.page GMT Inv saves and vehicles (to an extent) but just seem to get blown up to easily]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290488.page GMT
So let's speak about opportunity cost. It strikes me that having Warscythes would make Immortals significantly better in close combat than they actually are. Making enemies run away once you've won combat strikes me as likewise significantly better than getting "tar-pitted". Soulless combines well with both the Gaze of Flame and the Nightmare Shroud in that regard.

Remember the further differences between Pariahs and Immortals: Fearless and Psychic Abomination. Fearless has been pooh-poohed here as being a relatively minor improvement on Ld10. I've pointed out that Fearless is pretty significant, re: Tank Shock, Sweeping Advance, Pinning, and so on.

About Psychic Abomination, it has a pathetic range. Until you consider the space that you can fill with Pariahs on the board. This applies to Soulless as well: Take a unit of four Pariahs, and set them in a line. They can make a lozenge-shaped area 25" wide and 34" long of Soulless. They can make a lozenge-shaped area 13" wide and 16" long for Psychic Abomination. The Psychic Abomination is pretty much limited to use against Eldar, but it helps to keep those Warlocks on Jetbikes away from stuff like Monoliths.

Taken alone, and on plain numbers, I agree that you might as well invest the ponts and Elite slot in another unit of Immortals. However, as I explained earlier, they have lots of synergy with other units in the army, and in particular with Necron Lords. They have some of the few 'Power Weapons' in the Necron army, which adds more in an assault than a few extra attacks. But they need to support other units (rather than the other way around), and they are not Immortals and can't do what Immortals are good at (such as skipping around the board with a Lord bearing a Veil of Darkness).

Take the problem with them not having We'll Be Back. Solve it by putting them behind a line of Warriors (or even Immortals!) and attaching a Necron Lord with the Solar Pulse.

I agree with gorgon that these differences need to be emphasized, but if rumours are true regarding the 5th edition of 40k people will notice them more anyways.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290559.page GMT Besides that, who would want to tarpit them anyway? Their shooting is decent, but not horrific.

Fearless is not more useful on pinning or tank shock than Ld10. First of all, what pins that you care about? How often do you find yourself saying "Oh noes! Pinned!" I have failed one pin test EVER with my Sisters, and I often run against Tau sniper teams and blastmaster rocking Emp's Kids. A Ld9-10 is just not prone to failing tests, ever. Tankshock, same thing. The only fun thing is that the Pariah can death or glory and maybe tag the tank, but then why would someone tank shock a Pariah unit? Again, ignoring them is still the best bet.

Now, I agree the psychic abomination thing can be cool, especially when you can spread it out like that. In an Apoc game, I would totally take a unit just for that. In a mundane game without crazy points though, are you really going to spend ~4-500 points on a monolith and some pariahs to baby sit it? Even if you do, you are losing the Pariah's melee "skill." So you have a unit that requires huge points investment to protect another expensive model when you could perhaps just have two Monoliths, it is only really handy against Eldar, and mostly just shoots. Why not have two 'liths, or immortals to shoot the warlock?

Putting them into a melee is nice, but they can't move fast enough to countercharge effectively. Having them in the right place at the right time is largely a matter of luck, and again, they might not even get to swing those scythes.

Putting them behind other Necrons does not solve their WBB issue, either now or in 5th. Now, they get shot after the unit passes a Target Priority check (if he even cares to shoot them). In 5th, they get a 4+ cover save, but then they have a 3+ save anyway, so they don't benefit save vs. plasma and the like. In anycase, why not just kill what they are hiding behind? Much better for phase out. The pariahs can be killed at your leisure. (I might be slightly off, I don't recall what solar pulse does precisely. Unless it lets them reroll cover or armor saves though, I don't think it helps.)

So, you still have a lot of points, necrons and wbb being traded for a questionable skill in melee, and the novelty of Abomination. Personally, I foresee myself ignoring them until they get annoying, then wiping a unit by way of an Exorcist launcher, or Divine Guidanced bolters.

To be fair to them, their cardinal sin is not being Necrons with WBB. If they just wouldn't die when desired, they could be a problem. An eventual problem, but one none the less. At least with WBB you would have to spend some time killing them and watching them stand up again as they walk towards you, as opposed to now where you ignore them till they get close, then mow them all down in one round of shooting.
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I'm arguing for the Pariahs to support things like assaults. It might be something to consider the sorts of units they'd combine with in an assault. Backing up Flayed Ones and Wraiths would give Pariahs the punch to deal with hordes like Orks while backing up Warriors and Scarabs would give them the horde to deal with high Initiative troops (do you attack the Pariahs, and get nobbled by the masses of Necrons, or try to thin the masses of Necrons but take hits from the Pariahs?).

My point about "tar-pitting" is not that getting Pariahs stuck in an assault is something a player would want to do, but something that the Necron player would want to avoid. As the game goes on, Necron units stuck in combat risk being trapped in place until a more effective enemy assault unit can assault them. Decisive assaults are good for Necrons, it seems.

Fearless is definitely more useful than Ld10 on Pinning and Tank Shock since it is utterly reliable, and will neither fail the odd time, nor fail when appropriately modified (Horrorfexes, Dirge Casters, Psychic Scream, Ordnance, etc).

A player would want to Tank Shock a unit of Pariahs if that unit of Pariahs was inside a Necron phalanx. Tank Shock is effective at breaking up the phalanx, not because Necron units will break and run, but because they are piss poor at Death or Glory and are unlikely to stop the tank from forcing them away from a Resurrection Orb.

As I pointed out earlier, they don't actually need to be in an assault to benefit that assault. They just need to be nearby, and they can be spread out to cover a large area. Having them in the right place at the right time is hardly a matter of luck if you know where the right place and the right time is going to be (objective, or just in the middle of a phalanx).

Putting them behind some Necrons will give them some protection, not counting towards Phase Out will give them some protection as well, and as you suggest some people will simply underestimate them. But the real protection, is the Necron Lord with the Solar Orb. If the Night-Fighting rules are in effect, then it'll give the Necrons a free round of regular shooting. If the Night-Fighting rules are not in effect, then the Night-Fighting rules apply to any rules shooting at the Lord and a unit it is accompanying. As for ignoring them until you get around to hitting them with an Exorcist Launcher, I find it bizarre to imagine that your opponent would let your Exorcist Laucher last.

I'll agree that Psychic Abomination is a novelty. Soulless is not. It's an incredibly handy thing to have. Combined with the shooting abilities of Immortals, and in combination with units like Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Scarabs it's bizarre to imagine you'll get the free ride of yet another Necron shooting gallery. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290600.page GMT LOS-blocking terrain, and to hope that appropriate terrain is located somewhere your opponent needs to go in order to complete the mission or to assault you.

But every point spent on them is a point not spent on guns that are actually hurting the enemy, or on durable bodies that can move towards and capture an objective. If your opponent is not trying to assault you, or if your opponent is Fearless and ignores their special ability (like Tyranids and cult CSM), or if you don’t have a good place to hide the Pariahs, then they’re pretty terrible.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290609.page GMT LOS-blocking terrain, and to hope that appropriate terrain is located somewhere your opponent needs to go in order to complete the mission or to assault you.
[/quote]

That was my buddy's problem when he would take Carniefexes against Starcannon Eldar. Just concentrate on the stuff that is more dangerous, then when it is finally about to be in assault range, Starcannon, Starcannon, Starcannon, Starcannon, Starcannon, Starcannon. Oops, no more Carnifex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290614.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290628.page GMT CC where a Immortal or Warrior block was charged last turn is a decent threat to garden variety assault MEQs so long as you can keep the powerfist from squishing it. The weaknesses are of course no screening and problems vs. WS 5.

If pariahs filled a similar role, say A2-3 W2-3 independent and maybe screenable, they'd be pretty nice as a slightly different option to Spyders. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/290696.page GMT sp?) as a counter-charge threat. It worked once, the next game someone dropped arty on them. Such is life...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291118.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291138.page GMT
now for both of those instances to happen there are a lot of ifs ands and buts, so the end result might not pay off all the time. if i played crons i'd prolly go for a medium sized unit of pariahs]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291158.page GMT So we have a melee aspect that is inferior to pretty much every army's counter charge units. Great.

As to Soulless, almost every army's assault troops are Fearless. Even if they are not Fearless, they generally are able to put a lot of wounds on a Str5 3+sv unit, either with power fists, power weapons, or some other trick like rending. So getting them to lose combat in the first place is going to be tough, and Ld7 is not the hardest roll in the world to pass. It isn't as though a unit of Pariahs is going to be outnumbering much of anything.

In Pariah's defense, I wouldn't want them NEAR my loyalist termies, other than Death wingers, and even then I would be less than excited. Of course, with the speed of Pariahs, I could just walk away and shoot them dead.


In the end, it just seems pretty clear that Pariahs are not good enough at any of their functions to be worth taking for the points. Even in a vacuum they are a bit over costed, but compared to the good things they make you pass up, be it by competing for non-necron spots or elite slots, they definitely just don't get the job well done. That isn't to say they can't perform admirably, but just because something can work a small percentage of the time does not mean it is a strong choice or even an ok choice. When you find you have to tailor your army to make a single unit perform acceptably, it is time to seriously question whether that unit should even be in the army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/291784.page GMT SM codex. I don't know why, but I just would]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292285.page GMT
The only real exception to this in my opinion is the monlith because it lets you get so much more mileage out of guys with we'll be back rerolls (and because it is ridiculously hard to kill for some armies).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292335.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292350.page GMT DE in that regard.

Phase out needs to phased out of the next codex, IMO. It's a creative (I guess) but very strange way to balance an army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292406.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292411.page GMT WBB will probably be replaced by Feel No Pain. Gauss Weapons will probably get 5th ed Rending instead of their current rules. The whole army will be repriced. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292416.page GMT WBB will probably be replaced by Feel No Pain. Gauss Weapons will probably get 5th ed Rending instead of their current rules. The whole army will be repriced. [/quote]

Pretty much what the current rumors are for their next codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292460.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292464.page GMT
WBB has a TON of problems and questions associated with it that could be fixed a couple of ways. 1) Change it to Feel No Pain, giving it a nice clear and simple mechanic which non-Necron players will have already seen in the main rulebook. 2) Spend several paragraphs CLEARLY explaining how WBB is supposed to work and how you track the status of dead models which “aren’t really there”. Either way can give you a satisfying and interesting play experience. One is less prone to creating new questions and doesn’t require as much explanation every time you bring your Necron army to a tournament or store and play against
someone new.

Not to mention that if you clean up and standardize those two army-wide special rules, you can then spend more ink and pages on OTHER rules and/or new units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292484.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/292489.page GMT
as a shooting unit they are purely inferior.

they are too slow to be an assault unit. they are also too weak to be an assault unit. this leaves them the counter assault role.

in 3rd edition this was actually a good role as they could shoot over the heads of the warriors screening them and actually get some advantage out of their guns. they added point for point the same firepower at range as warriors and made the block more resistant to CC.

but now if you screen them behind terrain you can't shoot. so they just sit behind your lines waiting to be kinda decent in CC. which is the second really big problem: after the charge they're not actually better than warriors by a significant margin because they die much more easily.

besides, and this is in my opinion the biggest issue with them, necron armies DON'T COUNTER CHARGE! if there's a unit in combat with our attackers after we teleport away we can't shoot them, this is bad. what we do instead is use scarabs to tie things up long before they get anywhere near us if we don't want to fight them. if it's a non-teleporting skimmer oriented army there's no place for a slow unit anyway.

in fact, pariahs are the worst CC option in the army. the deceiver beats them in utility, CC punch, mobility and resilience. scarabs and wraiths have the mobility to pick their targets, clearly win on resilience and are comparable in killyness. even flayed ones are better, having deep strike, infiltrate and the teleport option as ways to get into position while having superior combat ability.

and that's all ignoring the phase out question which imo is pretty minor. other non-necron units in the army like scarabs and monoliths are well worth it so i don't see that as necessarily crippling, but when you don't actually get anything for lowering your phase out it is a bit irksome. even if pariahs did have the necron rule it is questionable if the melee abilities would be worth the 8 points over immortals.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/299693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/299693.page GMT
Most of the time, the Pariahs ended up catching plasma fire in the first couple turns. Most of my opponents ran Tyranids or cult Chaos armies, so I didn't get a whole lot of mileage out of the Pariah-Lord one-two punch. When they got into combat, they would end up putting one or two wounds on a Hive Tyrant or a brick of old-school, two-wound Thousand Sons before getting crushed in return.

As soon as I swapped out Pariahs for Immortals, my list got much more competitive. Pariahs didn't do enough attacks in close combat to be good in assault. I didn't need the warscythes for tank busting, I had gauss weapons to take care of that. It's difficult to use their Ld7 bubble offensively because they're so slow. They were useful to me as a mobile firebase to support my Warriors... but Immortals do that better and cheaper.

I really want to like Pariahs but they didn't work out for me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/300199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/300199.page GMT Inv saves they caould be more effective than other units, like flayed ones in combat. But thats only a theory, I've not had chance to play a Daemons army yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301078.page GMT Inv saves they caould be more effective than other units, like flayed ones in combat. But thats only a theory, I've not had chance to play a Daemons army yet.[/quote]

see, that's the thing, if you actually do the math you'll see that flayed ones are actually better against demons even before you take into account the fact that pariahs cost twice as much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301323.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301450.page GMT
But thats just me-I won't try if the common concensus is it isn't worth the effort against Daemons]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301850.page GMT CSM lessers) or 4++ (Daemon dex). Better to make your opponent roll more saves than pay a premium to ignore the save.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301887.page GMT AP" comes into play here?

Other than that it seems a blank has been drawn on Pariahs being any good-lets hope a new codex resolves that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301888.page GMT GW has grossly overvalued those Warscythes, forgetting, it seems, their many horrid weaknesses.

Anyway, the best anti-Daemon measure is shooting, which is what Necrons do, so why muck about with Pariahs?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/301895.page GMT HQ choices should get the best option in that respect]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/302328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211392/302328.page GMT