http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net GW gaming with Warhammer 40k and
then moved on to playing Fantasy. I'm curious as to what things hindered
your understanding and/or enjoyment of playing Fantasy. This can be
anything from the hobby aspect, to the gaming scene, to actual gaming
rules.

Also, what things stand out as improvements in Fantasy over 40k, and what
things do you miss in Fantasy from the switch from 40k?

(I mean, other than lasercannons and such)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288233.page GMT Some more I've found are measuring, wargear, remembering generic weapons/armor, and not minmaxing.
Being able to guess distances is so much more important in Fantasy than it is in 40k as you have to figure out not only where you'll go when you charge, but where you'll go when you fail a charge.
There are so many different magic items that its really overwhelming when you're just getting started.
The generic weapons rules (bows, spears, etc.) and the armor rules (heavy, light, etc) are a bit of a pain to remember, it wouldn't have been that hard for GW to just print them in the back of a book or include them on a "cheat sheet."
Finally min-maxing takes on a whole different meaning in fantasy. You can't just take 4 units of night goblins and expect them to do basically anything. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288245.page GMT
Things I like about WFB over 40k:

1) Different movement rates, and march moving/blocking
2) In one turn, enemy units have to be shot OR charged, you have to make a decision, not do both.
3) Generally hard to win with Herohammer (in 40k, a Chaplain can charge a unit, kill one dude, and beat/run down the whole unit. Very hard to replicate that in WFB.)
4) More rewarding to win with clever support (flank/rear charges)
5) Modifiers for rolling to hit and armour saves, feel better to me than cover saves and AP.
6) Scaling of the game as points increase

The only real thing I miss in 40k is the modelling freedom - hard to do many unit conversions in WFB due to ranking up.

Zoned]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288248.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288249.page GMT whfb much better than 40k as i have. the game is far more in depth about how combat would actually be resolved in real life/that time period. also the movement and such make a ton more sense.

i guess the thing you may have trouble with most would be the combat resolution system, where even if you kill more enemy models you still may lose combat and run away]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288292.page GMT The only real thing I miss in 40k is the modelling freedom - hard to do many unit conversions in WFB due to ranking up.

Zoned[/quote]

I have to disagree with you there, most of the crazy OTT converted armies I have seen are in Fantasy from Pirate Cthulu to Smurfs, to King Kong's Skull Island native island. You may be able to make a cool conversion of of a jetpak marine with lightning claws but the stricter WYSIWYG means that it will still be a Marine with a jet pack and lightning claws dynamically posed. You can't get away with counts as like you can in fantasy (like my Smurf butterfly riders count as Spider Riders) so you see a lot more creativity and cool conversions or ideas on the fantasy table than you will on the 40K side.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288305.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288324.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288324.page GMT OTT converted armies I have seen are in Fantasy from Pirate Cthulu to Smurfs, to King Kong's Skull Island native island. You may be able to make a cool conversion of of a jetpak marine with lightning claws but the stricter WYSIWYG means that it will still be a Marine with a jet pack and lightning claws dynamically posed. You can't get away with counts as like you can in fantasy (like my Smurf butterfly riders count as Spider Riders) so you see a lot more creativity and cool conversions or ideas on the fantasy table than you will on the 40K side.[/quote]

How are the rules in 40k more strict for WYSIWYG? I've seen lots of crazy 40k armies to that were simply "counts as." I played a Tau army at a local tournament the other day were all the models were based on Halo characters. The player used mostly Tau and Tyranid pieces, and alot of green stuff and plasticard. Have you seen Dave Taylor's AdMech army from White Dwarf that counted as Lost and the Damned? Or James Craig's Zoat army that counts as Necrons?

http://ca.games-workshop.com/Community/Events_Coverage/Astro07/James/JamesCraig04_b.jpg

I'm not disagreeing that you've seen more crazy OTT armies in WFB compared to 40k, but I certainly don't think the rules or the game somehow lends itself better for "counts as."

And to be more specific about "hard to do many unit conversions in WFB due to ranking up," I meant it's hard to make outlandish characters in crazy poses in WFB due to the necessity of ranking up said characters in a unit. Hope that clarifies things.

Zoned]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288330.page GMT Psychology
Arc of Visibility
Cannon Dice
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288348.page GMT 40k to death. Mostly why I never play, too much "how does this go again," that plus I play it so rarely.

uhhh

skirmishers/ movement in general. What happens before and after combat. Charge reactions, running off the table, etc. I seem to remember running off the table was a sticky one for some reason.

improvements? It's just a good ruleset. I don't think it gets enough credit, or maybe it does. Magic, Historical type infantry, characters and monsters. It's a cool system.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288359.page GMT 40K are: A more robust leadership system, and a fleshed out magic system.

Pet peeve about 40K: Psykers can give some armies a massive edge against other armies without any defense other than playing "Kill the Psyker" ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288366.page GMT 40k equivalent.

In 40k, one unit can make its points back in one good shooting phase. In WFB, you're lucky if you make your points back in 4-5 shooting phases.

In 40k, one close combat unit can take out 3-4 enemy units over a couple of turns. In WFB, a good opponent will make sure you end up spending 2-3 turns finding a 2nd target.

In 40k, you can move away from your opponent and redeploy. With the exception of flyers and possibly fast cav, once a unit is placed down on the table in WFB, its path is set in stone.


On the other hand, I find that most WFB games are over in about 3 turns. With no lateral movement, one player (the one with weaker shooting/magic) will charge and either break the opponent or die. I find it to be less tactical. The table always has a dead zone in the middle which means that every game plays pretty much the same. Much like if you played two 40k gun line armies with terrain around the edges. Most good 40k players I know will put terrain in the center of the table. Since it is a rule in fantasy that no terrrain can be within 12" of the center of the table, I find that most fantasy tables look the same (from a tactical point of view).

Once I realized that most fantasy games would play out the same, it was relatively easy to pick up the rest.

Daydream]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288368.page GMT How are the rules in 40k more strict for WYSIWYG? I've seen lots of crazy 40k armies to that were simply "counts as." I played a Tau army at a local tournament the other day were all the models were based on Halo characters. The player used mostly Tau and Tyranid pieces, and alot of green stuff and plasticard. Have you seen Dave Taylor's AdMech army from White Dwarf that counted as Lost and the Damned? Or James Craig's Zoat army that counts as Necrons? [/quote]

You have three examples, I can think of three I have seen and played against two of those with a 15 minute explanation of what was what and then still had to ask one guy had placards on his counts as CSM army and it took me several minutes reading what he moved every turn due to nothing even remotely similar to WYSIWYG. You don't have heavy weapons, Sgt. with Power Flaming Fist of Imperial Hotwings, or Private Guardman with flashlight and ham radio set that has to be modeled in 40K but not Fantasy.

Fantasy it is pretty much troops champion, musician, standard so long as those are represented you can pretty much do anything you want. You can also use non GW models to make your entire army, there are tons more Fantasy miniatures than Sci-Fi, and you can legally use all these at big tournaments. If you o to those tournaments you will see usually 3 or 4 off the wall heavily converted armies that you would never see in an 40K tournament, I know I spend a lot more time on my fantasy armies than I ever did on my 40K stuff.





]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288373.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288376.page GMT
1. Modeling
2. Maneuverability
3. Combat Resolution
4. Magic
5. Equipment
6. 40k Peeves]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288400.page GMT 40k, if you can get a small to moderate advantage, it's not hard to ride it to a victory. In Fantasy, so few dice are rolled, it's easy to have big swings in fortune stemming from just a few oddball dice.

The other thing with Fantasy is that things move very slowly. It's like 40k in slow motion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288420.page GMT 40k, if you can get a small to moderate advantage, it's not hard to ride it to a victory. In Fantasy, so few dice are rolled, it's easy to have big swings in fortune stemming from just a few oddball dice.

The other thing with Fantasy is that things move very slowly. It's like 40k in slow motion.[/quote]

I find this to be just the opposite. The decreased emphasis on dice rolls usually means that who ever is playing better will come out on top. For example, with fantasy's static combat resolution fights can often be decisively won with only one or two casualties being done so even if you fluff your attacks you can still win if you managed to do something such as rear charge your enemy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288538.page GMT in Fantasy and where do they occur in 40k?

I'm thinking John is talking about freak leadership checks.

But aren't they just exceptions? I always had the feeling that
the good Fantasy players I was up against already knew
the CR before I ever got a charge off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288541.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288551.page GMT
Big difference there is no bonus attack but chargers always strike first.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288556.page GMT Ld roll and I'm running, and most-likely cut down. I think this really stands out with characters and monsters. A monster with T7 cannot be hurt by S3 models. And yet, if it whiffs on its attack dice, and only kills one model, all of a sudden it's testing Ld with negative penalties.

Shouldn't there be some sort of exception, like, you never ever run from a combat when you took no damage. If they can't hurt you, why do you need to run away?

----

The utter futility of shooting in fantasy. If my opponent goes first, I get exactly one round of shooting at his cavalry units before they hit my lines. Given that cavalry are given ridiculously good saves, I'm lucky to kill one or two knights, unless I play nothing but a gunline, and even then, chances are good that he's going to have enough knights survive to roll up my side.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288579.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288584.page GMT 40k goes : Move, Shoot, Assault

While fantasy goes: Move/Assault, Shoot (magic and shooting are basically the same phase for me)

For me this is the biggest distinction. I'll echo everyone else about LOS, terrain being impossible to get through, combat res, etc, but for me the biggest change is that you can't move, shoot, assault.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288587.page GMT



(I play both)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288600.page GMT Ld roll and I'm running, and most-likely cut down. I think this really stands out with characters and monsters. A monster with T7 cannot be hurt by S3 models. And yet, if it whiffs on its attack dice, and only kills one model, all of a sudden it's testing Ld with negative penalties.

Shouldn't there be some sort of exception, like, you never ever run from a combat when you took no damage. If they can't hurt you, why do you need to run away?

----

The utter futility of shooting in fantasy. If my opponent goes first, I get exactly one round of shooting at his cavalry units before they hit my lines. Given that cavalry are given ridiculously good saves, I'm lucky to kill one or two knights, unless I play nothing but a gunline, and even then, chances are good that he's going to have enough knights survive to roll up my side.
[/quote]

-the static combat res systems stops big t7 gribblies rolling up a battle line, introducing that silly rule would herald the return of hero hammer in a big big way. That fact that most big monsters cant break ranked units solo is a good thing not a bad thing >> static combat res is representing the sheer weight of troops surrounding you its not all based on pew pewing like in 40k.

-shooting is far from futile but in fantasy alot of it is the 'what if' senario. What if: that helblaster rolls 30 shots, the outriders hit with 12/15 shots, the cannon hits my (insert big point sink monster) shooting can influence the game without doing anything.

-ur last comment on shooting kinda shows ur a 40k player, ever heard of redirecting? screens? bait and flee? and tbh a normal empire knight unit or silver helm unit isnt going to break a block with 5 static CR, 6 attacks with a champ 3-4 hit, 3 kills + standard thats it.

Alot of the stuff people are talking about rules wise is becuase fantasy cant be won with a big uber unit of doom which pwns everything. They will be marchblocked they will be redirected they will be fleed from and they will be fed crappy 30pt units for 6 turns. its good units need the whole game to make their points back, if every unit can wtfbbq 3 times their cost in a turn or 2 that just sucks >>

Fantasy is just a more tactical game than 40k, this isnt saying 40k is a bad game, it needs improving imo and i wount play it in its current incarnation but it has potential.

You need alot of forward planning to get the most from ur units in fantasy, movement wins and looses games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288602.page GMT Ld roll and I'm running, and most-likely cut down. I think this really stands out with characters and monsters. A monster with T7 cannot be hurt by S3 models. And yet, if it whiffs on its attack dice, and only kills one model, all of a sudden it's testing Ld with negative penalties.

Shouldn't there be some sort of exception, like, you never ever run from a combat when you took no damage. If they can't hurt you, why do you need to run away?

----

The utter futility of shooting in fantasy. If my opponent goes first, I get exactly one round of shooting at his cavalry units before they hit my lines. Given that cavalry are given ridiculously good saves, I'm lucky to kill one or two knights, unless I play nothing but a gunline, and even then, chances are good that he's going to have enough knights survive to roll up my side.
[/quote]

-the static combat res systems stops big t7 gribblies rolling up a battle line, introducing that silly rule would herald the return of hero hammer in a big big way. That fact that most big monsters cant break ranked units solo is a good thing not a bad thing >> static combat res is representing the sheer weight of troops surrounding you its not all based on pew pewing like in 40k.

-shooting is far from futile but in fantasy alot of it is the 'what if' senario. What if: that helblaster rolls 30 shots, the outriders hit with 12/15 shots, the cannon hits my (insert big point sink monster) shooting can influence the game without doing anything.

-ur last comment on shooting kinda shows ur a 40k player, ever heard of redirecting? screens? bait and flee? and tbh a normal empire knight unit or silver helm unit isnt going to break a block with 5 static CR, 6 attacks with a champ 3-4 hit, 3 kills + standard thats it.

Alot of the stuff people are talking about rules wise is becuase fantasy cant be won with a big uber unit of doom which pwns everything. They will be marchblocked they will be redirected they will be fleed from and they will be fed crappy 30pt units for 6 turns. its good units need the whole game to make their points back, if every unit can wtfbbq 3 times their cost in a turn or 2 that just sucks >>

Fantasy is just a more tactical game than 40k, this isnt saying 40k is a bad game, it needs improving imo and i wount play it in its current incarnation but it has potential.

You need alot of forward planning to get the most from ur units in fantasy, movement wins and looses games.[/quote]

Let's not turn this into a 40k flamewar, now. While the content is helpful, the tone is
a tad on the harsh side. I'm trying to put together the pieces of an article a 40k player
would read, not one that would make them combative.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288611.page GMT
Big difference there is no bonus attack but chargers always strike first.[/quote]

Yeah, it was hard to remember after a year or so of 40Kv3 then switching to fantasy to keep that in mind. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288636.page GMT 40k, then playing fantasy a lot, then playing 40k for the hell of it and realizing that your guys who just charged in for the kill have to stop and get mangled by the I6 stealers first

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288646.page GMT 40k flamewar, now. While the content is helpful, the tone is
a tad on the harsh side. I'm trying to put together the pieces of an article a 40k player
would read, not one that would make them combative.[/quote]

sorry i tend to get a little defensive of fantasy.

I felt i needed to defend the fact that its really really good big monsters and super lords dont rule fantasy. It also sounds like 40k players find it hard to get used to the idea that you cant usually win your points back with one massive point sink unit or character.

What about the idea of point sinks in 40k? do they exisit? Nearly unkillable units which tie up a winning ammount of VP so the oponent simply cnt get to them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288660.page GMT they have misconceptions it's better to clarify them than
to make fun of them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288671.page GMT 40K but front and center in fantasy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288677.page GMT
DIfferences between 40k and WHFB?

(Old-timer voice) Back when I started there wasn't much of any difference between 2nd Ed. 40k and 5th Ed. WHFB. To hit Modifiers, real psychology rules, declaring charges at start of turn, and model facing to determine firing arcs were still in 40k.

My biggest adjustment was going from card driven magic/psychic systems to dice driven ones. Also going from all wargear/magic items being on individual cards.

The differences that haven't changed at all are the rank and file vs. squad coherency rules which take a little adjustment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288678.page GMT 40k players.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288679.page GMT
DIfferences between 40k and WHFB?

(Old-timer voice) Back when I started there wasn't much of any difference between 2nd Ed. 40k and 5th Ed. WHFB. To hit Modifiers, real psychology rules, declaring charges at start of turn, and model facing to determine firing arcs were still in 40k.

My biggest adjustment was going from card driven magic/psychic systems to dice driven ones. Also going from all wargear/magic items being on individual cards.

The differences that haven't changed at all are the rank and file vs. squad coherency rules which take a little adjustment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288680.page GMT I felt i needed to defend the fact that its really really good big monsters and super lords dont rule fantasy. It also sounds like 40k players find it hard to get used to the idea that you cant usually win your points back with one massive point sink unit or character.

What about the idea of point sinks in 40k? do they exisit? Nearly unkillable units which tie up a winning ammount of VP so the oponent simply cnt get to them?[/quote]

Well, in 40k, there are answers to all forms of uber-characters. The most common is simply a powerfist in a squad, which will get to beat on whatever big nasty is attacking that unit for a few turns.

I think there's a difference, however, in having a rule that makes a dragon not-a-dragon. I mean, really. It's a game with dragons in it, and they cannot even face a bunch of toothpick wielding night goblins without having to make a test and potentially run away. How dragonlike is that? Dragons should be able to kill as many models that aren't equipped to fight dragons as they want, they shouldn't "lose combat". They certainly shouldn't have to take Ld tests at -4 (or more) simply because they rolled 1's and 2's on their to-hit rolls, when fighting a target that cannot hurt them.

While having all-powerful units isn't desirable, there is something to be said for a general who can recognize a mis-match and exploit it. In 40k, this can be someone taking a big tank against someone who doesn't have guns strong enough to hurt the big tank. This isn't something wrong with the game design, it anything, it's a problem in that one player decided that he didn't need to worry about tanks...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288681.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288716.page GMT
That's BS. What about all this talk of strategy and tactics from the Fantasy camp. Just because your 25 goblins aren't going to make the dragon run away doesn't mean they can't tarpit him all game. I didn't suggest that CR be ignored completely if you couldn't be hurt, just, you that you shouldn't "lose" combat unless you take some damage. It doesn't turn them into braindead units, but you don't have this insanely stupid risk of having a dragon running away from, and being cut down by a unit of pixies armed with toothpicks.

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread. That's my biggest gripe about fantasy as a 40k player.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288733.page GMT CR bonus to give block units a 5th built-in point of CR, and it was a big part of what made WH my favorite game, pulling ahead of 40k.

In WH, even Dragons need to use maneuver to win. If they hit a ranked block from the flank or rear, they remove the rank bonus, and only need to kill 2 models ( with +1 themselves for Flanking) from the flank, or 1 model (1 kill +2 CR for Rear) to overcome the banner and outnumbering bonuses, and they win. The fact that dragons can see and charge OVER other units, and can fly and charge 20", means that they can pick their fights and win as long as they're played smart. Statting them up to win every time from the front would be shooting the game in the foot. That said, they beat almost any elite unit or non-ranked unit to tar, no matter whether they're attacking from the front or not. Which, in combination with the 20" fly/charge move, means they don't get beat very often by ranks unless the user just gets outplayed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288745.page GMT
ur average lord on dragon will do maby 3 wounds the dragon 2-3 so u are looking at 5-6 wounds from the dragon and character.

the goblin unit could be 30 models strong in ranks of 5 with full command so that = 5 static combat res (3 ranks, standard, outnumber) so it could go either way, if the dragons in the flank he probly will win.

However dragons arnt just close combat monsters, the provide a massive ammount of flexabilty.

Mount a lord with a good magic bow, you have a move 20'' missle unit with the panic causing dragons breath AND he causes terror and units have to take a fear test to charge him AND u will probily get to stand and shoot AND he can march block AND he can threatern flanks without ever having to charge.

I think is a difference between 40k and fantasy that a massily powerful unit like a dragon doesnt have to ever enter combat to be am awesome assest to an army.

But dragons are a crutch, dont learn fantasy with one becuase it will stun ur growth as a general.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288746.page GMT 40k, if you can get a small to moderate advantage, it's not hard to ride it to a victory. In Fantasy, so few dice are rolled, it's easy to have big swings in fortune stemming from just a few oddball dice.

The other thing with Fantasy is that things move very slowly. It's like 40k in slow motion.[/quote]

I find this to be just the opposite. The decreased emphasis on dice rolls usually means that who ever is playing better will come out on top. For example, with fantasy's static combat resolution fights can often be decisively won with only one or two casualties being done so even if you fluff your attacks you can still win if you managed to do something such as rear charge your enemy.[/quote]

No, Fantasy is just dependant upon die rolls as 40k, they just don't roll as many. For example, in 40k you might roll 30 attacks. In Fantasy, if you're rolling more than 10, that's a lot. With the greatly reduced dice counts, it's easier to get a "unusual" result in Fantasy, whereas, in 40k things tend to flatten out. You're correct that Fantasy, it may only need 1 kill to win a fight, but in Fantasy, if you're only rolling 5 attacks, it's very possible that you don't get it. Or if he only needs to make 3 saves, that he makes all 3. Same with Fantasy Ld tests. A bad Ld test or handful of die rolls at the wrong time, and things can swing in a big way.

It's not bad, per se, but it's very different.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288770.page GMT
Your first rambling sentence could use some puctuation, so forgive me if I misunderstood. I agree that "counts as" armies can be very pretty but also very confusing. I don't see how a Smurf Orc and Goblin army is somehow more acceptable (or easier to understand) than a Zoat Necron army. And certainly, that wasn't the original issue I was addressing, which you seem to have missed (again.)

I think it is harder to convert in WFB because models have to rank up. Generally speaking, you can't be as outlandish as you can be in 40k.

As for your WYSIWYG issue, I think both games are clear on their expectations but both allow for creativity to override. A Power Fist doesn't have to be a Power Fist. Ever see Dave Taylor's Geswick Guard? He had an officer with a cyber mastiff from Necromunda that counted as a Power Fist. I have a friend who is converting his Storm Claw Bike squad from Sammael - despite the fact that Storm Claws ride bikes and not Jetbikes (storm claws are from the pre-heresy era where Jetbikes were more prevalent.)

Again, I have no doubt that in your experience you many have seen more converted models in WFB than 40k, but I certainly don't think that's a universal truth or anything. Good gaming!

Zoned]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/288926.page GMT
No, Fantasy is just dependant upon die rolls as 40k, they just don't roll as many. For example, in 40k you might roll 30 attacks. In Fantasy, if you're rolling more than 10, that's a lot. With the greatly reduced dice counts, it's easier to get a "unusual" result in Fantasy, whereas, in 40k things tend to flatten out. You're correct that Fantasy, it may only need 1 kill to win a fight, but in Fantasy, if you're only rolling 5 attacks, it's very possible that you don't get it. Or if he only needs to make 3 saves, that he makes all 3. Same with Fantasy Ld tests. A bad Ld test or handful of die rolls at the wrong time, and things can swing in a big way.

It's not bad, per se, but it's very different.[/quote]

The one area of fantasy in which I will definitely agree with you about the dice having a negative impact is the magic phase. There are so many dice thrown around during the magic phase that sooner or later someone is going to have a disasterous miscast and personally I don't have a lot of fun when the game is decided by who has the most self inflicted magic casualties (which is why a lot of people stay away from magic and to a lesser extent artillery). 40k really doesn't have anything that is quite the equivalent of this. Sure there is the perils of the warp rule but assuming you're playing a toughness 4 army you're usually not going to have your psykers completely nuke themselves and even when they do they're not the same ammount of points investment as a 400 some odd point magic using lord in WHFB.

I think that this is more than made up for though by some of the areas in WHFB that do [b]not[/b] require dice rolling where they do in 40k. The best examples that I can come up with off of the top of my head are difficult terrain and marching. In 40k your difficult terrain and "fleet" moves are completely random. You really don't know if your guys are going to go one inch, six inches, or somewhere in between. Whereas in WHFB you always know exactly how far your guys are going to move. If they're going through difficult terrain they are moving at half speed and if you march you're going double speed. It's always the same and you never get screwed by rolling a one for your difficult terrain on the charge when you only needed two inches.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289212.page GMT 40k players, what were the hardest things to get used to in WHFB?[/quote]

Good rules?

Depth?



BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289228.page GMT WHFB back in 5th edition. Started playing 40K with 3rd. Then around the time 6th WHFB came out I didn't play anything for a couple years. Then started playing 40K a lot but no WHFB because there were no players. So it's been about 7 years since I really played much WHFB. Been getting back into lately and here's my thoughts:

1) One of the biggest adjustments (and one of the reasons I don't play much) is that Fantasy takes longer - longer setup, longer move times (even with trays which are essential), longer break down.

2) Movement - probably the single biggest phase during the first 3 turns. Only slightly overshadows deployment. If you don't plan your moves out 3 turns in advance, you're probably screwed.

3) Deployment - with a few exceptions (flying brets being the one that sticks out), if you screw up your deployment, it's almost impossible to recover. If you have a slow army with a few weak fast units, and you find yourself in the wrong area of the battlefield, getting to where you need to be is damn difficult.

4) LOS with units for charging. As someone else mentioned, it's annoying as hell when you have a unit of troops that can't do anything about the pesky unit of skirmishers who are picking off guys in 1's and 2's and keeping you from getting to where you want to be.

5) Static combat resolution - actually this is something that wasn't hard for me to get used to with WHFB. It makes a lot of sense to me, but it's something that you have to be aware of when planing your army. While MSU has a place in WHFB (developed there in the first place?) unless used right, it can lead to a quick loss of units.

For a summary: one of the hardest things to learn about WHFB is that there is no room for mistake in deployment or the first couple turns of movement. There is no rapid redeployment of your army wholesale, once a slow moving large unit is heading somewhere it's hard to change them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289230.page GMT 40k players, what were the hardest things to get used to in WHFB?[/quote]

Good rules?

Depth?



BYE[/quote]

Now, now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289245.page GMT 40k to be much more enjoyable than WHFB, mostly because something that looks big and nasty actually is. The point about the dragon is a good one, the dragons should be able to eat things like no tommorow, but there should also be a balanceing, like bolt throwers or cannons cause extra wounds against dragons a small possibilty of instant kills.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289623.page GMT
WHFB is the best system for fantasy medieval style gaming out there, aside from warmaster. it has the most in depth rules to have large army scale games and the rules actually fit how historical research has shown that battles were fought in the old ages. big units would form in ranks and charge another enemy ranked unit, and then one of the two units would take a couple steps back and repeat the process. overall it's an amazing system which takes into account all the things that changed the tide of historical battles and armies which the books for WHFB have been based upon (british, french, aztecs/mayan, mongolians, etc.)

oh right forgot to say, yes the hardest thing to realize/get used to in fantasy is the movement and combat resolution. other than that it's pretty much like 40k without guns]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289641.page GMT 40k to be much more enjoyable than WHFB, mostly because something that looks big and nasty actually is. The point about the dragon is a good one, the dragons should be able to eat things like no tommorow, but there should also be a balanceing, like bolt throwers or cannons cause extra wounds against dragons a small possibilty of instant kills.[/quote]

please please never write new fantasy rules for GW becuase you (not in a nasty way) have no idea how all the armies would cope with that, dragons are balanced in the game atm and provide pew pew killyness to the army as well as loads of support options.

I dont want ur dragon being able to munch my BoC army and my only counter to be warmachines >> yeah becuase BoC have sooooo many of them in their list >>

Not every army in fantasy has 'the anti tank weapon' 'the anti infantry weapon', so you cant make them nessisary counters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211441/289854.page GMT