http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net GT rubric for this year. The second reason of the rubric is for improvement. How many people see the response to the "sportsmanship" part of a tourny? How many people discuss this with their opponents after the game is ended so people can learn to be better opponents? In my experience they have been kept too secret!!! Ogre from adepticon inspired me by saying he tells his opponents bluntly his thoughts. I think some of these should be filled in before the game starts and some after and discussed. I also think that the Tourny should allow time for this to take place! I will discuss them after you read them.

SPORTSMANSHIP CHECKLIST
Compulsory Trappings - These are the items an opponent can reasonably expect you to be prepared with, including being on time and playing promptly .

1 Did your opponent show up on time (or early)? 1 Point

2 Did your opponent have all the materials they needed to play (dice, templates, army list, rules for their army, rules for the game)? 1 Point

3 Did your opponent play their turns in a reasonable amount of time (taking in account time to plan strategy, and includes playing throughout all the phases)? 1 Point

Game Play - These items include courses of action your opponent took during the game or in deciding what to field in their army.

4 Did your opponent measure accurately for both model moves and shooting distances? 1 Point

5 Did your opponent solve rules disputes by showing you the relevant passages in their rulebook (or, if that could not be found or remained confusing, was amicable about bringing over a Rules Judge)? 1 Point

6 Was your opponent’s army easy to understand with clear conversions or completely WYSWIG? 1 Point

7 Do you think your opponent built an army based on the theme of the relevant gaming universe and supplied background for that army (as opposed to a force built purely for winning with little or no regard to that army’s established background)? 1 Point

Behaviors - These items include basic social skills.

8 Was your opponent of good humor and amicable when not concentrating on strategy or planning out moves (this does not mean they put on a one man circus for you, but rather was not angry/grumbling/complaining/obtuse during your game)? 1 Point

9 Was your opponent helpful in explaining correct rules, explaining how their army works? 1 Point

10 Win or lose, was this person the type of opponent you look forward to playing again? 1 Point

Total Up to 10 Points

#s 1,2,6, should be filled out at the start of the game, before anything starts as these are Objective. #7 is a subjective score and should be discussed after the game, but filled out beforehand.

#s 3,5,8, and 9 should be done after and then discussed with your opponent.

The results for all of these should be shared! Now I know what some people will be thinking... This is going to piss people off if they get a bad score... If it pisses you off get over it! If all of your opponents tell you you're not helpful with rules, will not play you again, you aren't fun to play.... Guess what that means? but don't stop there, Have your opponent explain why! this is what needs to be done. We need to talk, as adults and gamers, about how to make our games more fun.

Now I also feel this will at least limit the temptation to tank your opponent on these scores. ::start rant:: At adepticon our team got tanked sportsmanship, but I couldn't figure out why. We had all of the objective stuff and at a maximum we would have lost 6pts per round on sports if the people had the worst game of their lives... well it turns out most people we played except the last round because we were all tired, said they had the best game of their lives... now they were either liars then, or liars on the objective stuff. Personally I practice honesty and would like to see Objective things kept objective... ::end Rant::

So what do you guys think? Should time be allotted for this to happen before and after games at the GTs?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289538.page GMT
I would like my opponent to tell me openly why he scored me the way he did. If I get a low score I am left to wonder if it was my army, my behaviors, or just the way my opponent scores people.

I am an adult, and I can take criticism. Last year at the Las Vegas GT, I scored high in sportsmanship, but at Baltimore I scored very low, and I am left to wonder why. If I had the soft scores at Baltimore that I had at Las Vegas I would have finished in 3rd place.


There are downsides to open scoring though. I am a very comp friendly player and about a year and a half ago there have been people showing up with powerful builds (cheesy). I have been grading people harshly at RTTs when I played them, and gave them the scores that I thought that they deserved. When you bring an army that is built only to win in a comp environment, you should not be surprised when you get a less than perfect comp score. The people though that brought these armies would give me a hard time when ever I showed up, and accused me of chipmunking etc. It was such a hassle that I just started to give everyone a max score and I did not bother giving them the score that they deserved.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289549.page GMT
That is one of my pet peeves...Grading sports on comp.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289557.page GMT
Blackmoor, don't give in. I give people the scores they deserve. Don't get bullied into not being honest. Maybe instead ask the opponents why they feel their list isn't cheesey while grading them on it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289561.page GMT
Most of the time I now guys that get really pist off if you give them a low score on something they think they should of got a better score.

Over all I do like the new format and would not mind talking about the score before it was turned in. That way if somebody tries to shaft you because you clean their army off the board, you get a chance to see the soft score before its turned in and finalized. That way if they want to be a prick then it gives you a chance to say wait a min, I showed up 10 min early and you did not score that correctly, wait a min I have everything needed plus other items that others might need to share so why did I not get a point for that.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289575.page GMT
I would also Like to point out at this point that I have had people at tournies tell me "I'm giving you full for sports! and fav player" when I know they are liars. I believe it was the Hellfire Air show, A tourney out in Pittsburg PA where the last round player just wasn't any fun to play... He didn't understand the difference between LOS terrain and Area Terrain, Was fake and obnoxious and generally wasn't someone I would ever play on purpose. I think this would shut the "I'm giving you everything" people up if people Stuck to it. Remember when you sign this thing in the end you are signing that everything is true... which surprisingly makes it a legal document ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289576.page GMT
For everything and anything.

This year, it will be different.

Personally I hope I lose some games as the 'new' sportsmanship system is sh~t. Don't talk to the players about what they want, don't expect us to put up with horrible decision making forever.

The funny thing is, the nicer I am about sports/painting/rules bending/outright cheating...the worse a score I get because despite all that, I still clean them off the tabletop in short order and it seems like that is a large part of the issue.

Which is sad, but really unfixable.

GW's part is also sad, but quite fixable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289591.page GMT

Now if you play people that get pissy when you beat them... well it could just be the crowd you play in... which is more reason for the objective things to be done BEFORE the game starts and for them to not be secret]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289597.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289597.page GMT If anything it would be great if GW would take the top 10 or what they think they need to take. Then go around and re check the soft scores for errors. If a guy got a point on four out of the five games for showing up on time and on the last game did not get the point. It would call into question on did somebody shaft this player a point or two....

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289601.page GMT GW assumes people are honest. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289603.page GMT
And I personally don't see a point to these scores. If it's anonymous why not just give 0s to all your opponents, makes you win more am I correct?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289684.page GMT
And I personally don't see a point to these scores. If it's anonymous why not just give 0s to all your opponents, makes you win more am I correct?[/quote]

unless i am mistaken you need to explain to the judges why you gave the opponent a zero in order to validate it.

the only circumstance i could see myself giving out a zero would be if my oponent was being generous with his measurements and picking up hit dice that were misses.. continually.

one thing that annoys me is when people give out 10s for every game. do you honestly play the 5 best games of your life at a GT? i certainly dont. i wouldnt expect to recieve 10s every game, and it shouldnt be that way.. imo there should be a rule against giving out more than one 10 per GT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289691.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289697.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289801.page GMT
Say it ain't so.

The way I rate soft scores in my tourneys works like a charm. *shrug*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289809.page GMT
And I personally don't see a point to these scores. If it's anonymous why not just give 0s to all your opponents, makes you win more am I correct?[/quote]

What you just asked sir is Chipmunking. If you purposfully rate your opponent with 0s you are a deuschbag and therefore chipmunked. Sir the stands alone.

The point of the rubric here is to make the scores as objective as possible. That means that if you were to write "0" for someone who did bring dice if bringing dice was on the rubric you would be lieing. Now since you sign this form you are testifying that it is all true this means you are verifying that you checked the scores. This kind of skullduggery is why this needs to change into what it was ment for, A way of making games more fun.

[quote=Aeon]And then the unscrupless players marks as worse sport the guy who has won most of his games and the muppet he played in round one gets his pick as best sports...[/quote]

If this is what some players do... I am sorry it is that way. I, as well as the majority of people I play with, rank the person we had the most fun playing as the person we had the most fun playing! Who cares if you win this though? I mean sure go for the win but if someone is better then you... step aside and take it like a man.

[quote=Ztryder] one thing that annoys me is when people give out 10s for every game. do you honestly play the 5 best games of your life at a GT? i certainly dont. i wouldnt expect to recieve 10s every game, and it shouldnt be that way.. imo there should be a rule against giving out more than one 10 per GT.[/quote]

I agree 100% This is just not cool either. It makes the point of sportsmanship invalid]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289822.page GMT
It was also used in another tournament a couple weeks ago. Wasn't quite so close this time around. People were a little more harsh (people paid attention better to things like was one model not WYSIWYG) and were better about not marking every single game as "the best one ever."

Overall I like the system better then what was there before. Plus in a smaller tournament, the judge has the time to question people who turn in low scores for their opponents every round and double - check with their opponents on things like "did you have rules/dice, show up on time, etc". Harder to police at a larger event.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289843.page GMT
Skyth, this is the GT Sports scoring, there are no Comp scores for the US GTs this year.

I'm one of the Tourney judges budro mentioned in his post (Seth, I'm guessing Matt was the other?). I don't think it really worked that well in a small group, especially one where everyone pretty much knew each other. I loaned out dice and blast/templates, yet the players to whom I loaned those items got full marks on the scoresheet. That's why I went back to the standard RTT 0-2-4-6 scale in the tourney last week.

There's both good and bad regarding open scoring. Bad, I mark you down, you might mark me down in revenge. Good, less chance of someone chipmunking if they have to show and explain the scores they give. My solutioin would be that when the players turn in their sheets to the judge, at that point they are allowed to see what they received from the opposing player. Too late for a revenge markdown but if you know it's going to be revealed, then less likelihood of chipmunking. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289927.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289948.page GMT
So by that standard a complete a-hole with an unpainted army can win overall? I'll disagree. Add in a Best General award, as well as Best Army and Best Sport. But overall should be the one that merges all aspects of the hobby. Or just run a 'Ard Boys/Gladiator tourney, where there are no painting/comp/theme/sports scores. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289977.page GMT 9 Was your opponent helpful in explaining correct rules, explaining how their army works? 1 Point

10 Win or lose, was this person the type of opponent you look forward to playing again? 1 Point
[/quote]

I'm OK with this, in principle, but I'd suggest that the truly subjective elements are weighted too low:

9: Did you enjoy your game? 1 pt
10: Would you play them again? 1 pt.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289990.page GMT
SPORTSMANSHIP CHECKLIST

Thats a great idea, I think the checklists are a great step in the right direction. I would certainly advocate it. While I like and respect the idea of having time to discuss the marks built into the games, time is awlays a premium at tourneys, and I wouldnt do that.

@techboss

Yup I completely agree with you. "Sportsmanship and comp scores are a complete waste (as they are now)" paranthesis mine.

@JohnHwangDD

"a complete a-hole with an unpainted army can win overall? I'll disagree. Add in a Best General award, as well as Best Army and Best Sport. But overall should be the one that merges all aspects of the hobby."

The awards ought to be seperated, counting in arbitrary sports for overall, and subjective openent scsores for painting and theme is meaningless. The awads need to be best general, best painted (judged by organizers) and peoples choice by popular vote, everything else is just random sillyness, or a popularity contest, opr worse, opportunities for nepotism to game the system.

@Typeline

Typeline wrote:
"I personally don't see a point to these scores. If it's anonymous why not just give 0s to all your opponents, makes you win more am I correct?"

Yes you are correct, that is exactly what is wrong with the system.

@Ztryder
"people give out 10s for every game. do you honestly play the 5 best games of your life at a GT? i certainly dont. i wouldnt expect to recieve 10s every game, and it shouldnt be that way.. imo there should be a rule against giving out more than one 10 per"

It's the devil's deal Ztryder, it makes perfect sense. Here goes; before the game, say to your opponent: Mark me perfect for soft scores and I'll do the same for you then we can just decide this on the field. Kind of has some ballsy Sportsmanship appeal doesn't it? If memory serves Mauleed claimed to do this regularly, years ago...?

@ Stelek
"For many years now I've always given people max scores. For everything and anything."

Me too, but particularly for comp, essentially, if the organizers have said it is legal and the list was checked who am I to say the army is unfair. RUBBISH that just makes poor sports out of people, of course he beat me because his army was unfairly constructed? Balderdash say I, it was legal and checked by the organizers right? To bad.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/289997.page GMT
While chipmunking is the evil that haunts secret scoring, collusion is the evil that haunts open scoring. IME it is extremely common for players to explicitly or implicitly agree to score one another max, without regard to the actual guidelines. This is cheating every bit as much as chipmunking, but is harder to spot and correct. It also doesn’t have the guilt factor attached which I think helps prevent most players from chipmunking.

IME a substantial percentage of gamers lack refined social and communication skills, and most do not handle confrontation well. Which unfortunately is what will often result when you cap off a bad game with telling your opponent it was a bad game to his face. I expect that mandated sharing of scores would result in even more collusion, whether deliberate or just to avoid confrontation and hurt feelings.

At one GT I attended my final round opponent and I were both in contention to place Overall. For the most part it was a good game, in part helped by him making a distinct and conscious effort to be a fun and entertaining opponent. But at multiple points in the game he BLATANTLY moved his models too far. An ~8” move to get a Carnifex into my deployment zone in the final turn in Recon, for one example*. I had to mark him down for cheating, and when he openly marked me max sports and, smiling, asked me what I was scoring him, I had the distinctly uncomfortable experience of explaining to him that for most of the game he had been great, but I really didn’t appreciate his repeated cheating in the movement phase.

IMO the best system is the one GW used at my first GT- Baltimore 01. Both players come up together, and go to opposite sides of a long table to fill in the Sports scores. Then submit them together. Optionally they could then reveal the scores to one another, as Mondo suggested.



*Since it was an important move, I carefully observed when he made the measurement and marked the spot before he moved the model. He would have been pretty close to the line but might have made it. He then reconsidered his move in light of what units of mine would have LOS to the Carnifex and instead moved it at a 45 degree angle to be behind a wood. But the Carnifex ended its move 6” closer to my table edge, despite the angle.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290002.page GMT I think the overall "score" should be done away with. It's merely a consilation prize to the fluff nutters who can't paint and are sore losers. I can't paint, I usually get a bad match up or two and I get along with other players pretty reasonably. I've won best sportsman a couple times and come close to winning some tournaments. Anything that is placed in the hands to the players as a subjective score, is going to be abused and is therefore worthless. Tourney awards should be:

Tournament winner, decided by win/loss and possibly victory points if needed
Best painted, decided by judges
Best theme/comp, decided by judges
Best sportsman, decided by 0-10 did you have fun score or what was your favorite game (opponent gets +1 sports, highest sum wins)

You can add additional prizes for 1, 2 & 3 places if you want for each catergory.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290010.page GMT GW will never change this aspect so get over it. If you want to talk about how it shouldn't be part of the game by all means start your own thread and I will come post in it and stay on topic. The GTs are a place for hobby enthusiasts to compete. This means all aspects of the hobby as well as just tactical skill. The hobby involves painting and interpersonal relations so it should apply a value to this. The question is how can this be done in a fair manner.

@ don_mondo

Do you think it would be possible to have a set of judges there to review the sportsmanship scores as they come in. There are around 170 spots in the tourny which means you would need to review 85 sets of scores turned in over a 30 min period. If one judge were to do this it would alot very little time per match... but how about if there are 10 judges reviewing this or better yet 10 volenteers. This could get done very quickly and it only takes about 2 min to review the scoring effectively. If there are problems this would be where the judges could penalize the ones who are incorrectly with deductions to the forms, -1 point for the first offense, -10 for the second and -20 for the third, ejection for the tourny for the 4th.

How many judges are at the typical GT?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290025.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290028.page GMT
Oh right, the gladiators are for the best pro-paid painted armies around. My bad!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290072.page GMT GT. It’s a special event showcasing crazy armies and with no soft scores. People have been running those at least as long as I’ve been in the hobby (first one I saw was in 2000, and it was 2000 points for that reason). But they are specifically an ALTERNATIVE to the default “complete hobbyist” event that the GTs have been for more than ten years now.

And in accordance with my “vote with my feet” policy, I play Warhammer on Friday at Adepticon rather than playing in the Gladiator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290087.page GMT 40k is the pressure to make your army into one of the generic ones from the fluff (blood angles, dark angles, Saam Hein, catachacans, etc). I had a friend who went to a tournament back in the RT days and hand an opponent try to get him ejected from the tournament because all his marines were painted different colors. That's just insane. If I (or anyone else) want to play the Pluto Rainbow Brigade Marines (or any similar outlandish or not theme) there shouldn't be a penalty verses playing ultra marines. #7 is going to instill that penalty.

You also probably want to organize the list into two sections, before the game and after the game, rather than into sections based on the type of questions. That will make it easier to fill out instead of going "Ok I need to fill out 1, 2, and 7 before the game and then other afterwards". Just a thought.

As for lying on sportsman ship scores goes, its always going to happen. You will get people like Stelek who will give people full points no matter what and you will get goobers who will give straight zeroes no matter what. I rarely play in tournaments because I'm not fond of the atmosphere at most of them. However a friend talked me into a team tournament not that long ago where the sportsmanship scores were initially secrete but then they posted the scores for everyone at the end of the tournament. The first game we played, we went up against some guys that got screwed by the mission, we had some rule arguments with them, and in the end, we wiped them out. They gave us full points on sportsmanship. The second game went moderately well. We were getting wiped out in the early/mid game but took objectives and got the win on the last turn. There was one rule question during the game but it was solved by looking it up. We got almost full sports points from that team (7/10 if I remember correctly). The final game we played, we fought some guys and managed to do well. It was fun game for us and it seemed to be a fun game for our opponents who did fairly well but ended up losing in the end. By far I found it to be the best game of the day and they were the only ones we gave full sportsmanship scores to. They gave us a 0 for sportsmanship. *shrug* That 0 kept us from winning prizes...I'm a bit bitter about it.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290110.page GMT
The first one blames their opponent's army
The second blames their own army.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290150.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290152.page GMT
The idea that I just had (so forgive me that it's not fully fleshed out) was that sportsmanship should be scored by people at a nearby table. That would be harder to accomplish, perhaps, but it would take away the opportunity for someone to "chipmunk."

If someone at a nearby table rated the game, and answered questions like:
- Did you like the look of player X's army on the table?
- Did player X seem prepared to play?
- Based on his behavior during the game, is player X someone you would be interested in playing?

That's probably not any better of a solution, but it makes it into a somewhat external evaluation, and thus a bit harder to chipmunk.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290263.page GMT I like this checklist a lot.

Although I like the concept of 'open' sportsmanship, I think both players would have to hand over their scoring sheets to their opponents before revealing how they had scored their opponent.

Otherwise a player could hear what his opponent is scoring him and then change his score to match.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290275.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290321.page GMT

No, to have an open system but to get rid of potential abuse after hearing what your opponent gave you, I was suggesting you'd both fill out your scores completely, then fold the sheet of paper and hand it to your opponent.

Then you'd both open your opponent's scoring sheet at the same time and see what you and your opponent gave each other and discuss the reasons why. Both players would then walk up to the judge's table and hand the other player's scoring sheet in.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290331.page GMT )

They may inflate the score to appease the opponent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290339.page GMT
I like that Idea Yakface. Does anyone know who to talk to about this? Maybe we can work with the GT organizer and see if we can have a test run in baltimore on a system where people can discuss why the gave the bad marks.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290340.page GMT GT even with the organiser listening. I still had to play him in the next round.

That said we made up and it was all happiness after; but at the time I was wondering if GW was going to have a lawsuit on its hands - could be why they dont have GTs here anymore ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290359.page GMT
Do you think it would be possible to have a set of judges there to review the sportsmanship scores as they come in. There are around 170 spots in the tourny which means you would need to review 85 sets of scores turned in over a 30 min period. If one judge were to do this it would alot very little time per match... but how about if there are 10 judges reviewing this or better yet 10 volenteers. This could get done very quickly and it only takes about 2 min to review the scoring effectively. If there are problems this would be where the judges could penalize the ones who are incorrectly with deductions to the forms, -1 point for the first offense, -10 for the second and -20 for the third, ejection for the tourny for the 4th.

How many judges are at the typical GT?[/quote]

Let's see, typical GT staff for the entire event is probably around 15 personnel, IIRC. Course, that's for the whole thing, 40K, WHFB, and LOTR. Now, there's usually a couple of staff standing in front of the judge's table accepting the scoresheets, making sure that you both entered the same scores, ie making sure I didn't put a win for me and you put a win for you, so it wouldn't take more than another few seconds to look at the Sports scores and let us look at each others scoresheets. Then the judge is handy to mediate if there are any bad feelings about the scores.
@Yak, I think that doing after turning them over to the judge would work better, gives an impartial arbitrator in case there are any bad feelings re the scores. Do it out in the tables and someone is more likely to vent than they would if standing in front of the judge's table. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290384.page GMT
Interesting discussion. Some of you may have noticed that the Sportsmanship checklist we are using this year is very similar to the Adepticon Checklist used in their Championships. When we discussed our Sportsmanship scoring we came down to a few key issues and questions.

Why have sportsmanship scoring?
How impactful should it be?
Should a checklist include subjective questions?
What balance should there be in the subjective/objective?

The answers we came up with, based on combined decades of playing in and running tournaments as well as listening to our tournament goers, are as follows.

1) We have Sportsmanship scoring to ensure players know their behaviors are under review. More fun is had when people are positive and on their best, most considerate behavior.
2) We felt that last years scoring was too impactful and, although zeroes were rarely given, the variance potential for pure subjectivity was too high.
3) If the checklist is about something as subjective as sporting behavior then yes it certainly should.
4) The current balance is 5 sub and 5 obj with two of the subjective leaning more towards objective answering (if that makes any sense). We are happy with this ballance as we feel that playing a great game against a prompt, efficient, fun, and well-rounded opponent means you'll be giving out a ten. Playing against a prompt, efficient a-hole means you'll be giving out a 5. Playing against a fun, well-rounded opponent who is disorganized means you'll be giving a 6 or a 7.

Those players who come just to win have a very clear checklist of how they need to approach each game with regards to timing, materials, army build, and in game behavior. If they are able to achieve all the checks then they will have provided a good game (hopefully great) for their opponent. This is the true aim for this checklist.

I expect that at our GTs this year we'll see a lot of folks with scores of 50 for sportsmanship, and the lowest score being around 30. I expect the average to be 42-45. At the sharp pointy end of the stick things will be very tight, and behaving well at each game will be very important.

As for us all being adults who can deliver and take constructive criticism, that may be the case here in this thread, but it certainly is not the case in a competitive environment. Passions run high and the right words are not always at the ready. While open sportsmanship is a wonderful ideal, I still feel that, in the heat of the moment, the bulk of our hobbyists are unable to avoid the nastier elements of confrontation.

Judges. We typically have 15-20 staff and volunteers at each US GT. These folks are typically chosen for their experience, enthusiasm, ad knowledge of their particular area (rules or painting or data entry). Unfortunately very few of them have had training in true conflict resolution/mediation. Many have plenty of life experience in those areas, particularly when it come to the hobby, but formal training? No. Is this another ideal or something we can work towards? I think it's both and something we'll discuss over the coming season.

I hope this helps everyone understand where we're coming from, and thanks for the feedback.

Cheers
Dave Taylor
GW US Community Development Manager]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290401.page GMT

I did not think of things from the training perspective and I kind of give people alot of credit when it comes to recieving feedback (probably because I work with a very diverse population in school). Hopefully there can be some additions to this later on and I am glad you guys are working on developing better systems. Thanks for the information

Rich T

P.S. See you in Baltimore !]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290418.page GMT
Furthermore, I hereby encourage everyone reading this thread to buy Dave a beer (or an appetizer if he’s already drunk) when you see him at Edgar’s or another appropriate venue this year.

Anyway, back on topic, I think the system you’ve got is one of the better ones possible. (Mostly) objective sports scoring is a great concept, and one a lot of folks have been working on in the last couple of years. I think you’re really on track on just about all of your scoring this season. I miss comp, and am looking forward to you working some version of it back in at some point, but aside from that I’m hard pressed to come up with anything to criticize.


FYI: If anyone has any interest, the link below contains the tourney rules for the last few tournaments I ran, which have a similar system. Though mine is perhaps a little too complex and needs a little re-jiggering:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/153188.page
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290437.page GMT
I think #1 is a bit of a wash--aren't 50 points "up for grabs" for sports and 100 is what is available for battle points?

I guess my conundrum is this, and this is just for me personally--and I know it's a public forum, so you can hit me on the head with a brutal-as-need-be public answer.

I usually end my games in half the time it takes others.

I don't show any emotion anymore, as I got chewed by Jeff Hall way back in the day for cursing up a storm when I lost some critical units. So I appear pretty passive aggressive, when I'm not really but only people who play me would know this.

How do I get even a 30? I've never not been knocked down for eliminating my opponents army in 3 turns.

Should I be less successful? It is a tournament, and I want my opponents to enjoy their game--but usually the first 3 games on Saturday are against 'The Rookie', 'The Painter', and 'The Converter'. My games on Sunday (due to battle point standings) are against 'The Jackass' and 'The Chipmunk'.

I can take it easy against the first set of opponents, and then on Sunday I end up crushing the more skilled opponents but they intentionally knock my sportsmanship down.

I really don't care what people think of my army, they're always legal and comp is a meaningless travesty I ignore when in play...so that leaves sportsmanship (aka comp to ALOT of players) and painting.

I'm not criticizing you here, I know resources and time are scarce but in the end it seems like sportsmanship and pro-painted armies are what decide the events as there's no way to run a real swiss elimination with this many players.

Do I need to pay to get my army painted so I can get as close to maximum points so I'm at least in the running? I have always been disappointed by the sportsmanship system, since it seems like to do well at it I have to not totally crush the other guy (I haven't faced a good sport at a GT or Indy in years--they lose and mark me down as much as they think they can get away with).

So the end question is:

When players give me and others half the points you expected, and since I'm sure I'll be 'watched' this year you'll know I am not a asshat...will the system be reviewed for how flawed it is?

Ten years and not even close to a win, and it doesn't matter which army I bring--I've brought every army undre the GW banner to the tabletop and won every game, and been knocked out by sportsmanship scoring every time.

Even with a pro painted army to dazzle the judges, I'd still not even place in the top 20 despite placing top 10 in battle points.

So either I'm a liar, and I really am the worst person; or the system you use is sub-par and always will be.

I'm not saying my way is better, but I don't get complaints about the results. They're open at every step, and I encourage players to let each other know of any issues...but in the end, the mechanics of my system prevent players from dicking each other on the primary prizes and as a result they tend to be far more 'honest' than otherwise.

~A unhappy vet.

PS Are there going to be 40k team games on Friday at the LVGT?? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290494.page GMT RTTs than I can count due to getting tanked on Sportsmanship and Comp. The primary reason is I field a Dark Eldar Wych Cult and it really gets under the skin of guys that field armies in Power Armor to get beat by them. I've had folks tell me that there must be something wrong with my list when that Space Marine player who moved everything forward for 2 turns removes his last mini off the table on turn 4 when the assault phase is over.

The only reason I believe I won the last RTT I fielded them at was because the guy running the RTT told everyone that they would have to explain why they gave their opponent a zero. If you couldn't provide a sound reason, the score you gave your opponent would be swapped with what he gave you.

Maybe I am a jerk but it seems to me that soft scores are related to the army fielded. When I do take my Orks, Chaos or IG to a tourney my soft scores are always near the top.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290506.page GMT

No, to have an open system but to get rid of potential abuse after hearing what your opponent gave you, I was suggesting you'd both fill out your scores completely, then fold the sheet of paper and hand it to your opponent.

Then you'd both open your opponent's scoring sheet at the same time and see what you and your opponent gave each other and discuss the reasons why. Both players would then walk up to the judge's table and hand the other player's scoring sheet in.


[/quote]

Let me preface by saying I rarely go to tourneys at this point as my schedule is wonky and I always get paired with THAT GUY so may be biased.
However, I am not particularly fond of that system. I'm really not there to have in depth discussions with my opponent especially if I or he scored low. I don't see how the discussion could be productive. Further, I don't see how it would keep me from ending up playing THAT GUY.
(it may also be a factor in that I've never given anyone a "0" and do believe there is a difference between sportsmanship and theme/comp)

"Why did you give me a 1?"
"Well, you're kind of a "
"I am not"
"yes, you are actually."
"I am not"
so forth

Edit: I'd have to say I don't have any prob with GW tourneys. I'd allow FW stuff and have some issues with some armies not being permitted but on the whole they are pretty decent. As many fo us have run tournaments it can be both a pain in the butt and really enjoyable.

[quote]Ten years and not even close to a win, and it doesn't matter which army I bring--I've brought every army undre the GW banner to the tabletop and won every game, and been knocked out by sportsmanship scoring every time.[/quote]
Sorry Stelek can't resist this one. As the drunken Ron White would say, "if you're complaining that all the men your banging suck, maybe you should look at the common denominator. Maybe its yeeewwwww."



Lord I apologize... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290518.page GMT
And Stelek, give me a chance, I'll see if I can keep you on the table for a full six turns (altho I'm not sure how well my foot-slogging IG are gonna do in 5th..........)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290526.page GMT
I forgot to put in my original post that if we see scores below 5 in Sportsmanship we'll be asking a few questions and/or keeping an eye on things.

Based on your previous sportsmanship scores, your online behavior, and your own admissions of passive aggressive behavior I expect you'll be scoring in the 5-7 range. That means you'll have the "turned up on time", "had all his stuff", "play in a reasonable amount of time", "measure accurately for distances", and "had a wysiwyg army" plus [u]maybe[/u] the "showed relevant passages in rulebook" and "built an army based on theme and relevant background".

If you are worried about getting twos or threes we'll be happy to discuss it with you and your opponent if that happens.

Looking at the rest of your post, you really confuse me.

I don't understand why on earth you would want to come to one of our GTs. You obviously don't like any of the systems we use (or have used), you feel that you will need to lie about your army (or who painted it at least), and you feel you have to so drastically modify your behavior that you must play like an automaton. You have publicly ridiculed our rules on a regular basis, yet you keep coming back (or asking what other events we'll be running). What is the point you are trying to make?

Please read our tournament rules again. If you did not paint your army you cannot win overall. If you lie and are caught out the situation will be explained to the public.

And about the mechanics of your "system", I must have missed seeing it when you posted it here, could you send your system through to me? I'm curious to see how it would work.

Cheers
Dave]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290532.page GMT [quote=stelek]Ten years and not even close to a win, and it doesn't matter which army I bring--I've brought every army under the GW banner to the tabletop and won every game, and been knocked out by sportsmanship scoring every time.

[quote=jfrazell]Sorry Stelek can't resist this one. As the drunken Ron White would say, "if you're complaining that all the men your banging suck, maybe you should look at the common denominator. Maybe its yeeewwwww."[/quote][/quote]

That’s funny right thar, I don’t care who you are!

Stelek, after your sportsmanship “issues” I thought that you would be happy with a less subjective scoring list. I know that I am happy with it. All you have to do is bring all of your stuff, play in a decent manner, and you will score your points. Now you are free to drain the life out of your opponents and you will still get decent sports scores.

Also they have a checklist for painting, so you know what you have to do to bring up your scores.

Right now I like this system and I am willing to give it a try. Then at the end of the year we can evaluate it to see how well it worked.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290551.page GMT GW, not by anyone else.

Why do I go to your tournaments and not an Indy? While I may not think a whole lot about the way the tournaments are run as a whole in the GW system (including Indy's) I have never had fun at a Indy but I've at least had fun at some GW events. Most of last year was fun and was only ruined by our lack of sleep. 4 hours for 4 days makes anyone not fun.

I liked the original system you used, that had comp (and I stuck within it) so I couldn't get gimped by poor losers--I didn't like it then, and I think comp is not the system I want to live within (primarily because it reinforces cookie cutter army types to stay within comp).
However, with the sportsmanship system as it is...what happens now is I get marked down for my 'comp' even though there is technically no 'comp'. Thus the problem I'm commenting on. Maybe no one tells you this? Or fesses up to it?

I am no angel. Never said I was. I would *never* have my army painted and claim credit for it--I've had serious issues with quite a few people who did so, and I've turned them all in even months (or years) after the fact. Being dishonest is as far from me as you can get.

So to more directly answer you:

I love seeing the hobbyists make armies I love to look at and play against.

I didn't make a stink about playing 2 unpainted armies at the LVGT for nothing, ya know.

As far as ridiculing your rules, obviously I have as much passion about the game as the next guy and have 'I think I know better'-itis. You could have players who weren't passionate, and the difficult situation GW is in now would be alot worse.

I want the impossible--clearly written rules, beautiful models, and tournaments that at least appear to be run fairly so I can showcase what you've given me the tools to do. Run a pretty army against another pretty army, and if I'm not trying to win best painted or best sportsman whatever happens on the tabletop should determine the overall standings to a far greater degree than they currently do.

I'll put up my system in a few.

Oh and I've been silent about these issues for a decade, so you're getting a decade of built-up tension all at once.
Sorry about this, my failings are also my greatest strengths.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290556.page GMT
I'm not saying we don't want passionate hobbyists. Far from it. I am, however, saying that we are more than happy to listen to well-reasoned discussions and new ideas when they are presented to us. In fact, the system we are using this year is an amalgamation of numerous cool ideas and feedback provided by positive, passionate, and constructive critics.

My point is that the discussions I have seen you involved in on Dakka have rarely included constructive criticism from you, but your additions seem to consist primarily of extremist comments and vitriolic put downs.

Just my perception based on what I've seen.

We all know that our perception becomes our reality, just as you "appearing to be passive aggressive" means that those folks you play probably think you are.

It can certainly be beneficial to get things off your chest, just be careful your noise to content ratio doesn't get out of whack ; )

Cheers
Dave]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290569.page GMT
Do you honestly believe that you represent the poster boy for GW gaming?

If not, then why would you think that you'd win Overall?

When I was playing actively and competitively, I was very much in the shoes you're wearing now. I going to guess you're too "serious and tight" to allow the opponent to relax and feel comfortable. Or that you're sending some other message through your body language and intonation.

It's not your fault - it's who you are. I don't think there's much of anything you can really do about it, aside from not making things worse (like when you cursed up a storm).

The fact of the matter is that only one guy out of 100 can win Best Overall, and over 90% go home with nothing but (hopefully) fond memories.

So if you're having fun and can deal with the fact that you'll NEVER, EVER be in the running for Overall, and that your best shot at an award is "Best General" or "Best Army", then you should keep going to the GW GTs.

Sorry,

/John]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290570.page GMT
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/211616.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290580.page GMT [/quote]


This is incorrect.

You should be able to make a brief statement about your army, and the theme should be apparent to your opponent. That is the difference between a good theme and a bad theme.

For an example if you say: “Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons” the theme is apparent.

The only time when you have to have a long winded speech is when you have to reverse-engineer a theme. What I mean by reverse engineer a theme is instead of building an army around a theme, you make the army you want with all kinds of units that should not be together, and you then have to make a long winded story up to justify why all of these elements can be seen together.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290603.page GMT IG!!??"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290618.page GMT
Im not the best painter and have yet to do the shoulder pads on my marines. I have on the other hand worked my head over at trying to find a list that will aquire as many points as I can at the end of the day. I have taken home spots awards and best over all many times. One thing I am lacking is my painting of which will be correct this year to further my score. Other things to think about are the story behind your list, character names, all that xtra stuff that most either ignore and or just dont care to produce. Have you done a display base for your army or are you just showing up and putting your guy on the table for display. You find talent in other areas that will help you collect points over all that you lacked because of your painting.

Best of luck, now back to reworking my list if I can so that I can aquire all the points I can.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290640.page GMT IG!!??"[/quote]
Then I sincerely hope you do get to play Stelek... Lizardmen IG vs Lizardmen Orks ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290707.page GMT DA army on table five did you see it. Granted you ask these question while the easy part of the turn is going it opens door for other chatter.

I you need to stelek, get some rest before your games as this could be a key factor of why your so up tight.


If anything tournies need to remove the over all board thing I have heard that some do. Just because your in the top spot does not mean you should know about it ahead of time. That puts greater amount of tension onto the game and could cause some feedback. Your opponent might be the greatest game of your life but maybe he does not know how to deal with stress and your putting a good amount on somebody if they know the stacks are higher.

We show up to play the game not get jacked up on stress. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/290713.page GMT
#1) I agree with the random table placement but people that know the math can figure that out pretty quickly

#2) If the rubric for sportsmanship is objective there really can't be any hard feelings can there? I don't think there would be a point to needing training for mediation if this is the case. But then its hard to do sportsmanship as an only objective thing.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/291843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/291843.page GMT GT questionnaire that we have participants fill out after the last game while everything is fresh in their minds is incredibly influential on the following year's GTs.

Most of the changes for 2008 came directly from the 2007 feedback questionnaires. In addition to those questionnaires we'll have our own Community Development Team forums for posting feedback and comments on.

Chris
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/291887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/291887.page GMT UK GT sportsmanship scoring. Yellow card 'warning' and red card 'you are outta here'. It worked fine over there and you don't have to worry about chipmunking. It removes the subjective nature of any opponent based sportsmanship scoring system. It also removes the potential for additional data handling errors.

The UK has it down. Get rid of this potential for bias and subjective sportsmanship scores.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/292955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/292955.page GMT UK player (UK tournaments don't score sports) the list of rules and points to score is so long it would take away from my enjoyment of playing.

A simpler way of stopping sports nobbling is not to score sports.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293144.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293159.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293161.page GMT
Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293178.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293268.page GMT
There are a few points that I would at least skip and or ask the other player. Who know most of us travel to event and sometime you think you have everything and then forget your frigging dice. Or your templates found themseves to be in onther box you had around the house. Then again rules are rules so find yourself some cheap templates.

Hell you might even beable to make a few bucks xtra just showing up with a few templates,,, ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293279.page GMT
It works in the UK and a lot of the rest of Europe.

I think there must be cultural differences between British and American players.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293385.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293385.page GMT
Do you have experience in both systems? I've played in the UK and US and the UK sportsmanship system is far more superior than the US systems. It actually takes a lot of the pressure off and allows people to simply play the game without having to worry about doing a little dance for their opponent. All of our games (mine and Mike Mutscheller's) were great. I believe we each had one major rules issue, but in my opinion that is to be expected over 24 total games. The key to it's success is enforcement. If a judge sees someone getting out of hand, then they have to be willing to act.

Killkrazy - I believe it is more from the fact that people here in the states believe players can't be good sports without having an opponent scored system. This is something that GW US pushed back in the 2000 and at that time it was a needed based on the way some players were acting. At this point though, we need to advance beyond this type of a system. Note though, I have to give AdeptiCon and the GT staff credit for doing the best they can with a flawed system. The interesting thing is we have the 'ard Boyz events and the Gladiator, which don't have sportsmanship scores. Yet, those events ran well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293439.page GMT
It's one thing to say, "Bring the nastiest list you can" and another to say "bring balanced armies".

At 'ard boyz and gladiators, you know what you're getting into when you sign up. There's no need to have this scored constraint on what's "too good".

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293447.page GMT
After every UK GT, when I read the after-action reports from players I see (usually polite and understated) references to opponents who were argumentative or shady. If you have the staffing to have enough roving judges to look at every table during every game and see if yellow cards need to be handed out, that's excellent. Personally I think if you're at that staffing level, you could also have a scored sports system run with nary a hitch. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293455.page GMT
...

Killkrazy - I believe it is more from the fact that people here in the states believe players can't be good sports without having an opponent scored system. This is something that GW US pushed back in the 2000 and at that time it was a needed based on the way some players were acting. At this point though, we need to advance beyond this type of a system. Note though, I have to give AdeptiCon and the GT staff credit for doing the best they can with a flawed system. The interesting thing is we have the 'ard Boyz events and the Gladiator, which don't have sportsmanship scores. Yet, those events ran well. [/quote]

The message I get from reading reports (bear in mind I haven't played in a tournament or in the USA) is that once sports is scored, some (unsporting) players "game" it to win. Which kind of defeats the point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293484.page GMT
That is exactly how it goes. Almost (if not all) upper echelon players "game" it to win. It becomes more of a political battle on the sportsmanship side to see who can actually "massage" their opponents the most. With the existing system, if two higher tier players play - it is almost a given that perfects on sports and comp are given. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293514.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293516.page GMT UK GT, when I read the after-action reports from players I see (usually polite and understated) references to opponents who were argumentative or shady. If you have the staffing to have enough roving judges to look at every table during every game and see if yellow cards need to be handed out, that's excellent. Personally I think if you're at that staffing level, you could also have a scored sports system run with nary a hitch. [/quote]

Again, these references come without experience. Have you been there? The UK GT has the same number of judges (or less) than our GTs in the US. We found the same distribution of player types in the UK as here in the states. Comp was nearly identical (with the exception of IW builds). You have your argumentative or shady players in the US. Don't kid yourself if you think otherwise.

In no other event (sports, gaming or otherwise) have I ever seen sportsmanship affect so much to the point of where overall places are determined based on politicing and manuevering. Are you saying that everyone else (all other types of events) are so much better behaved that we need a sportsmanship score to keep us in line. I call that BS. We are just the same as everyone else. You will have your trash talkers, your passive agressive types, your underhanded tacticians and such. However, you will also have your upstanding players, your fun/corny oppenents and more. I would be willing to bet that the distribution of personalities follows closely to general population statistical distributions. What this then says - you don't need it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293523.page GMT UK people, who are in turn more individualistic than (for example) French people, who themselves are more individualistic than Japanese.

Whether this affects sportsmanship at GW events I have no idea.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293565.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293566.page GMT UK GT, when I read the after-action reports from players I see (usually polite and understated) references to opponents who were argumentative or shady. If you have the staffing to have enough roving judges to look at every table during every game and see if yellow cards need to be handed out, that's excellent. Personally I think if you're at that staffing level, you could also have a scored sports system run with nary a hitch. [/quote]

Again, these references come without experience. Have you been there? The UK GT has the same number of judges (or less) than our GTs in the US. We found the same distribution of player types in the UK as here in the states. Comp was nearly identical (with the exception of IW builds). You have your argumentative or shady players in the US. Don't kid yourself if you think otherwise. [/quote]

I haven’t played in a UK GT, and you have. I have played in enough US GTs, RTs, and other local tournaments (GW and independent) to have some decent experience in this country.

We do know that both events run smoothly. We can see from people’s tournament reports from the UK events that they still experience friction and conflicts. So clearly the UK system isn’t perfect, though obviously no system is perfect or will completely prevent misbehavior.

I completely agree that the personality mix (some regional and cultural variances aside) is going to be similar. I strongly suspect that Dave’s team could switch to using the UK system next year and it would work fine in most cases. Off the top of my head I see three big areas to consider:

1. Which system does a better job controlling inappropriate behavior?
2. What general effect does each system have on the tourney group’s behavior as a whole? What message does it convey, and how does it impact their tournament experience?
3. How much training does each system require and what demands does it place on staff?

Regarding point 1: I don’t think we have enough data. From my reading tournament after action reports and battle reports every chance I get (mostly here on Dakka and on warhammer.org.uk), I can see that people have problems in both places. From my completely unscientific, no doubt biased recollection, I would say that the number of complaints seems pretty similar, with UK players mentioning additional issues and complications arising related to language barriers and different play expectations from foreign visitors. Also a lot of complaints and comments about facing unpleasant and unfun armies.

This is something that GW definitely COULD try to record and compare. How many times is a judge called over? How many times do they have to talk to a player about unsportsmanlike behavior? How many yellow and red cards are given? How many complaints do the judges receive directly about unpleasant players? Unfortunately I rather doubt that GW has the staff available to really assemble these numbers, and I suspect that the separate organizational structures in the US and UK make cooperation of this kind a bit of a trick. I think we’d have to hope that a) the UK events team is fortunate enough to have someone as dedicated to feedback and improvement as Dave Taylor running things, and b) that said hypothetical and unlikely person and Dave both have time to do it. And that they agree it’s worth the time and work, of course.

Regarding point 2: My personal opinion, based on my experiences, is that putting sportsmanship scoring directly into the numeric calculations for who wins sends an extremely strong message about the importance of sportsmanship. More than preventing jerks and cheaters from winning, it gives every player at the tournament a tangible incentive to play nice and try to provide a fun experience for his opponent. It’s both a carrot and a stick. There are people I’ve played who I could clearly detect were trying to game the system for the best Sports score. One or two of these guys actually also cheated or played what I saw as shady interpretations of the rules, to the point that I was kind of glad the Sportsmanship score was encouraging them to at least fake a decent attitude.

Regarding point 3: I think a player-judged sports system does require some work on the part of the judges. They need to be alert for collusion and chipmunking, and if they see scoring anomalies they should ideally be able to spend some time in the next round hanging around the tables of the players involved and watching out for signs that the people involved are colluding (if the scores are unusually high) or are genuinely acting like jerks (if a score is unusually low). To try to confirm the basis of the score and hopefully make some corrections if needed. The yellow card/red card system places a different kind of demand. It requires some conflict management skills and some training in how to politely and professionally deal with a confrontation. Because when you hand out a yellow card, or particularly a red card, you are setting yourself up for some negative reactions and arguments from players. GW has historically been very reluctant to throw players out of a paid event. The staff under that system are under a more stressful burden in terms of being able to defuse arguments and hand out penalties while trying to not start them, and of bearing responsibility for throwing people the heck out of the event if they reach that level.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293642.page GMT bs. If a player wants to move his modules 13" instead of 12" then just deal with it folks. There is a spot to dock him a point because he is trying to cheat you. I dont know how many people I have played that cheat and or attempt to cheat to win. Its not a matter of how things have been but this thread is about the new point system so stay on track of find a new thread flamers!


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293789.page GMT BS that does and will continue to go on. It is common knowledge to all of the upper tier players. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293804.page GMT UK system. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293805.page GMT UK system is better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293807.page GMT
In a perfect world where the opponents can't apply subjective opinions, then yes. However, too many factors can affect this including.

1. Losing a game.
2. Losing a rules discussion.
3. Being tired and cranky.
4. Not liking to play against a certain army.
5. Not liking certain legal tactics.
6. Not liking certain army builds.
7. Not liking certain units.
8. Not liking certain wargear.
9. Not liking your face.
10. Not liking your kilt with no undies.

I've seen players say "I hate playing against space wolves" with a scowl on their face right away before the game starts. I wanted to laugh at a "Kommando" at Baltimore 2007 when he stated in a disgusted manner - 'Your army was totally built for tournaments'. Yeah - right after having 10 man CSM units and an "ever so powerful demon prince of Khorne" under the new codex.

Even one to two points difference is enough to put someone out of the winners circle.

Hell - figure skating and gymnastics don't have a sportsmanship score. Would you name another event where sportsmanship is scored by opponents and effects the final outcome? And don't include any French or French Canadian created sports.


Tarval - I agree with Mannahnin - Who's flaming? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293814.page GMT

1. Did your opponent show up on time or early? How hard is it to get a point for showing up on time so I think this question is mute because we all know if you dont show up on time you fail to get a point. SHOW UP ON TIME...

2. Did your opponent have all the materials they needed to play the game etc etc etc. Bring your gear or get docked a point.

3. Did your opponent play their turn in a reasonbale amount of time... etc etc..

Three easy points guys so just.

4. Did your opponent measure accurately for both models moves and shooting distance. Another simple task but could be chipmunked to death.

5. Did your opponent sovle rules disputes by showing your the relevant passage etc etc,,, easy point that is if you have a rules dispute. Guy parks a falcon over a squad, cant do it see faq... easy point to get.

6. Was your oppenents army WYSWIG etc etc,, very easy to get this point and with some of the new rules for GT then everybody should get this point. If I had to play somebody that was not painted or WYSWIG I would demand my money back after the tourny. I am not flying at this cost to play a junk army.

7. Do you think your opponent built an army based off the theme of the relevant gaming universe and supplied background for that army, as opposed to a force built purely for winning games. Like one of the comments a few back, if you have to explain your army over the course of the game then your not likely to get this point. It should be easy to see what your trying to bring to the table.

8. Was your opponent of good humor and amicable when not concentrating on strategy etc etc. If your upset because your dice are bad will I dock you a point, nope. If you made because you just lost your left flank will I dock you a point, nope. If your venting because your HT died to a lowly tactical power weapon guy then ya I might dock you a point. I rolled a six not only once but twice so ya...

9. Was your opponent helpful in explaining correct rules, explaining how their army works. This is almost a given point as well so there is not much room to chat about on this topic.

10. Win or Lose, was this person the type of opponent you look forward to playing again. Another simple question of which should be an easy point.

If your talking it should be about these point, take a point and then inform everybody that your talking about that point. We are here to make the rules better and GW is showing that they are listening so rant off and discuss on...

Personally you should be able to see the other person score card that way you can get a better understand if they mis marked you because it does happen.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293821.page GMT
Since you are promoting discussion of a bad system - I have proposed the use of another system that removes the opponent based subjectivity. Therefore, the merits of the UK vs US system discussion belongs in this thread. If you are not open to this, then you are not open to real improvement of the system and just want to attempt bandaid over the problems with more creative wording.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293825.page GMT GT then bring a GT army. Number seven is in place so that people dont show up with six man las/plas x6 of them. You going to a GT not an RTT or a T but a GT of which would require or should require a GT army not a crap list just because you want to win. If I am going to take the time to show up with a GT army ie not a slop army then I would think others should follow suite. If you want to show up with a shit list then do so at your own risk of lost points. Stelek talked about how he cleans people off the boards on the first day then has to deal with the harder oppt the following day.

Even now they have upped it so that you have to show up with a painted army at a GT. Even Stelek talked about how he hated playing a un painted army at GT.

I have taken the time to build an entire Inq ret ie lord and 12 guys of which ya, it might be a waste but its a GT guys. Now if somebody brings an RTT list vs my GT list then ya im going to dock him that point. If that person wants to play a game latter on then ya I can bust out my RTT 1850 marines that has never lost a game ever and I mean ever that will kill any army no matter what!

4. I had a BA player move the entire board on one turn, could this happen? No but did I allow it ya because I new what he had to offer and it was a matter of mins before I was cleaning his army off the board. Dock a point for improper movement let along his fast dice roll pick up five hits out of five dice when i know I saw one's.

3. I have never ever been slow played before until I played an RTT awhile back. I was really shocked seeing it played on me but I did not say anything about it. Dock a point but I will say something in a GT though because its about the game not about being a dirk.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293843.page GMT 2. Losing a rules discussion.
3. Being tired and cranky.
4. Not liking to play against a certain army.
5. Not liking certain legal tactics.
6. Not liking certain army builds.
7. Not liking certain units.
8. Not liking certain wargear.
9. Not liking your face.
10. Not liking your kilt with no undies.[/quote]

You know, if you started each opponent with 10 points and subtracted 1 for each of the above, that'd make for a decent Anti-Sports Scoring system.


[quote]Hell - figure skating and gymnastics don't have a sportsmanship score. [/quote]

Correct. Figure Skaters are measured by objective technical merit *and* subjective artistic merit.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293887.page GMT [/quote]

I like that - an anti-sports system.

[quote=JohnHwangDD] Correct. Figure Skaters are measured by objective technical merit *and* subjective artistic merit.[/quote]

40K technical merit - battle
Figure Skating technical merit - well skating of course

40K artistic merit - painting
Figure Skating technical merit - artistic expression

40K opponent rated scoring - comp and sportsmanship
Figure Skating opponent rated scoring - hmmmmmmmm

Looks like we are a bigger bunch of pansies than figure skaters. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211533/293945.page GMT<