http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
---------

Ok - Just had a phone convo with someone who had the new white dwarf
sat in front of them. New white dwarf list includes.

[b]Lords[/b]
Chaos lord
Chaos sorcerer
Daemon Prince

DP seemed to be the Hordes DP (fly/terror) but with true ward save.
However he had NO access to any gifts.

Mark of Khorne gave MR1 and frenzy
Mark of Slaanesh gave ItP
Nurgle gave fear (think still +1W but didn't ask)
Tzeentch costs 10 points and gave a 6+ ward......?!!! Goodbye warrior
mage.(20 points for units to have 6+ ward)

[b]Heroes[/b]
same

[b]Core[/b]
Warriors 12 points, + 5 chosen (one unit). Same stats.
Marauders, same
Warhounds, same

That's it. No cultists.

[b]Special[/b]
Marauder Horsemen
Chariots
Knights

[b]Rare[/b]
Hellcannon
Spawn
Chaos Giant.

[b]Magic Items[/b]
Most have been thrown away with nothing to replace them. All magic
items including the common ones fit on a single page.

There were no decent weapons and the sword which used to turn you into
a GD now just adds +1 to a few stats.

[b]Armour[/b]
Didn't notice any changes here except the +1T armour may have disappeared.

[b]Talisman[/b]
Crown of Regen and Golden Eye. That's it.

[b]Enchanted[/b]
Helm was still about

[b]Arcane[/b]
Staff of Change gone up to 70 points plus can only be used for casting.
Power familiar renamed chaos famililar and down to 40 points.
Skull of Katam still the same.
Think spell familiar disappeared as did everything else.

[b]Banner[/b]
125 stubborn banner and banner of wrath power Lv 5. That's it.

---------

[i][b]UNFORTUNATE[/b][/i]

I hold out that this isn't true or there's some caveat in there, but otherwise ... craptasm!

EDIT -- Just noticed marauder cav are special, in addition to the knights and chariots. Screw that noise.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289829.page GMT
It's a WD only list.

GW wants to sell Demons.

So yeah. they got nerfed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289832.page GMT
- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289834.page GMT
I guess they really do want you to buy daemons now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289853.page GMT
If I played Mortals I probably would be at my local GW store throwing my metal models through the window if that happened to my army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289863.page GMT Gee whiz that sounded weak.

Sounds pretty disasterous.

*Gets on soapbox*
GW should be using lists released in WD as test beds for where they want to take their armies, not as stripped down stop gaps. They get thousands of free playtesters and through internet forums and talking to players and tourneys they can see what is right and what is wrong and end up with a thing of beauty... rather than marauder horsemen as special.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289866.page GMT
At least HE got 6 Specials and only 2 Core as a requirement. VC got off with their core being stupidly good, but that's a necessity because they're undead and the thing that really "breaks" them is what their characters do to supplement it.

But for HoC they're like High Elves but have nothing to compensate for their terrible core. Unless Mauraders got a points drop and/or light armor+shield in their current base cost, then this list is going to suffer a ton. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289874.page GMT GW should be using lists released in WD as test beds for where they want to take their armies, not as stripped down stop gaps. They get thousands of free playtesters and through internet forums and talking to players and tourneys they can see what is right and what is wrong and end up with a thing of beauty... rather than marauder horsemen as special.[/quote]
This would require:

A) GW to listen to their customer base
B) Use the internet as 2-way communication, rather than just a place to post product sales sheets (Apoc data sheets) and an online store.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289882.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289888.page GMT ftw (shortly after the WD comes out), no reason to pay for this thing.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289897.page GMT
I swear though, it's like I have a psychic ability to find the most abused/ignored codexes and fall in love.

"Aww, little Witch Hunters, wipe the smeared mascara out from around your little raccoon eyes. You can come home with me! You too penitent engines, we will have a nice party."
It's only the next week when I realize they have stolen my tv in order to buy a gram of coke.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289903.page GMT
Tell that to all the spear elf running High Elf players that seem to be doing quite well...

It is just a list to use as a stopgap until they put out a full army. It is probably a bit of a playtest as well.

Special makes marauder horsemen compete with things that are always taken, thus, they will not be.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289904.page GMT
I mean seriously, my 4 unit tzeentch army now gets a 6+ ward save. That's huge!!!!!!! Why would marking warriors with tzeentch give power dice they can't use? Atleast they can make use of that great ward save now.

Chaos is overpowered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289917.page GMT
That being said, taking away demons, beasts, and now this... I just lost flayerkin as well which were an intereting mortal unit and fun to convert. I am still being patient and giving GW time, but I have 6000 points of nicely painted chaos that I was thinking about ebaying if things continued to go south. What really blows is that if the final list looks at all like this... no one will buy them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289934.page GMT MOT giving extra power dice makes no sense AT ALL. A 6+ ward save is so much better too because now, they have a way to give their army a ward save as they couldn't before. And Staff of Change was SOOO BROKEN, in fact, it was the most broken thing in WHFB so it's good it got nerfed.

Now Chaos is even MORE OVERPOWERED!!!1 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289943.page GMT sleeping during the design sessions.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but so far it does not look good for Chaos Mortals before November. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/289950.page GMT
It seems like they just took the one or two viable builds (lots of chariots and knights, Tzeentch magic army of doom), made them suck, kept the stuff that already sucked terrible and then flushed the magic items just for good measure. What did Chaos do to piss GW off? First chaos marines in 40k, now this. At least on the Fantasy side the demons still look strong (just without all of the previous possibilities of running mortals and beasts ...not that you'd want to use any of this mortal crap).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290014.page GMT gw -
chaos knights 28 points each, +10 for chosen then extra for a mark
nurgle mark is fear only
warhounds don't count against your min core allocation
demon prince is 350 points
60 point sword that gives +1 wound with no upper limit! (ie hack and slash a 10man skirmish unit to have 14 wounds! nasty)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290050.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290089.page GMT
The HoC, Beasts and Daemon lists were a lot of fun to model, paint and play.

Now, we're left with... this?

Ugh.

I hope a 'proper' Chaos Mortals book is not that far off...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290113.page GMT
I mean seriously, my 4 unit tzeentch army now gets a 6+ ward save. That's huge!!!!!!! Why would marking warriors with tzeentch give power dice they can't use? Atleast they can make use of that great ward save now.

Chaos is overpowered.[/quote]

Did you even KNOW the list? The power dice they generated wen to the ARMY Pool, so it could be used by ANY wizard. I'd much prefer that than the crap Ward, but then, my Characters aren't Wizards any more, either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290116.page GMT
I'm very temped to stick with the current HoC-book for now until the new book actually comes out.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290118.page GMT
I mean seriously, my 4 unit tzeentch army now gets a 6+ ward save. That's huge!!!!!!! Why would marking warriors with tzeentch give power dice they can't use? Atleast they can make use of that great ward save now.

Chaos is overpowered.[/quote]

Did you even KNOW the list? The power dice they generated wen to the ARMY Pool, so it could be used by ANY wizard. I'd much prefer that than the crap Ward, but then, my Characters aren't Wizards any more, either.[/quote]

/sarcasm]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290122.page GMT
Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290142.page GMT











I think that pretty much sums it up .]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290156.page GMT
I've played HoC for years, since about 3rd ed. I think GW's love affair with chaos is finally over.

This is seriously terrible. 2 banners? Magic items fitting on one page?

Ok - attention GW developers - You have lost your vision and desire to write a decent list. Please hire someone else. (Phil Kelly excluded).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290253.page GMT
If I play Fantasy before the new Chaos book comes out (which is honestly a bit unlikely, since no one else in my group really plays), I will be using the HoC book, and to hell with White Dwarf lists.

Why would anyone waste their time with a list like this? Seriously.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290371.page GMT
I mean seriously, my 4 unit tzeentch army now gets a 6+ ward save. That's huge!!!!!!! Why would marking warriors with tzeentch give power dice they can't use? Atleast they can make use of that great ward save now.

Chaos is overpowered.[/quote]

Hey, an army with T4 and a 6+ save has a lot going for it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290376.page GMT WD list. The actual army book should be much better. Here’s just hoping its not too long a wait.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290442.page GMT WD list? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290453.page GMT WD list. The actual army book should be much better. Here’s just hoping its not too long a wait.[/quote]
5 months of an ass list is a bit much. The one fantasy tourney I go out of my way to make each year is in September, I was hoping to use my Chaos but it looks like it'll be using Ogres again this year. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290480.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290484.page GMT
Thanks, at this point HG is the only game system I currently have no complaints about.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290492.page GMT WD list? [/quote]

My memory fails me... Please help me out...

Was it as bad as this one is?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290497.page GMT WD list? [/quote]

My memory fails me... Please help me out...

Was it as bad as this one is?[/quote]

Well, it certainly wasn't nearly as good as their eventual army list.

Currently Blood Angels are also using a stop-gap White Dwarf list - so I'm cautiously expecting the new Chaos Army Book to arrive shortly after the next round of 40K FAQs. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290501.page GMT
Their Ravening Hordes list was badass, and the TWO white dwarf lists they got were also badass. GW progressively downpowered them every iteration. The army book is actually the least powerful version of them since 6th ed debuted, though the Tree Spirits got a bit better. I still love the army book because it encourages a more aggressive, combative style of play, whereas the RH and WD lists were more avoidance/shooty/magic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290517.page GMT WD list. The actual army book should be much better. Here’s just hoping its not too long a wait.[/quote]


I know what your saying, and I think you're right. What I'm saying is that I will never use the WD list. Problem solved. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290525.page GMT
BDJV- where in Northern California are you?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290529.page GMT
About 50 minutes north east of San Fran.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290535.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290560.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290568.page GMT GW could have honestly done absolutely nothing (or else a 1-line FAQ entry) and gotten so much better response than writing a half-assed multiple-page article that will probably haunt them for years?

Just checking.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290591.page GMT GW could have honestly done absolutely nothing (or else a 1-line FAQ entry) and gotten so much better response than writing a half-assed multiple-page article that will probably haunt them for years?

Just checking.[/quote]


I'm totally with you on this dude. I really wonder how anyone thought this would make things better, in any way.

I mean, I wanted to add a couple boxes worth of Beastmen to my Chaos mortal army for variety. Now I will be buying zero boxes of Beastmen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290656.page GMT GW could have honestly done absolutely nothing (or else a 1-line FAQ entry) and gotten so much better response than writing a half-assed multiple-page article that will probably haunt them for years?

Just checking.[/quote]

It's hard to believe but, pretty much. Leave it to GW to screw up the one situation where inaction would have been just fine and yet we still have all sorts of armies that need FAQs (for both 40k and fantasy), Chaos Dwarves that are still using their ravening hordes list and quite a few 40k armies that are still using their 3rd ed. Codexes two months before 5th edition comes out. Yeah that seems par for the course.

How hard would it have been for them to just say:

1. Feel free to just keep using the Hordes of Chaos book "as is", just don't try to use any of the new spiffy demon rules if you take demons, or

2. Pretend that everything in the list with the "demonic" rule doesn't exist and oh by the way Chaos warriors are base 12 points.

I don't get it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290670.page GMT GW to be a bit weird, but this takes the cake.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290812.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211555/290871.page GMT