http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net oops sorry just Tzeentch. Now you get an all powerful 6+ ward save instead of those useless power dice. If your a hero it gets even better, Lords and Heroes who aren't wizards only get the ward save when they choose tzeentch, but wizards can now choose from any lore in the book with the mark (huge price drop from 140/70/20 to 10/20). All other marks appear the same, ITP for slaanesh (20/25 pts), Fear for Nurgle but no extra wound(20/30pts), frenzy for Khorne but no dispel dice (big drop now only 15/40 points) points are for Lord/hero/unit

All lords and heroes bar the daemon prince dropped 10 pts daemon prince is now 350
Warriors dropped a whopping 2 points, but it only costs 5 points to make them chosen (10 for the knights)
Marauders did not change
Chariots, Knights and MARUADER HORSEMEN???!@?#?$#? have moved to special (and lost the option for a shield!!)
Chaos steeds are no longer WS4
Spawn no longer have the option of marks but remain the same points cost

I may be bitter (and I am bitter) because I am a Tzeentch player and Tzeentch got totally nerfed with this list but the other changes really don't seem to help the army at all IMO. Warriors are still basically useless there only 2 points less expensive uselessness. Now the army has no, zero, zilch cavalry options in core. All in all it seems very restrictive and one dimensional for an army that should have the widest range of choices (Chaos, chaotic, duhh)

PapaSmurf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293620.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293634.page GMT
PapaSmurf

ps - can someone please tell me how I can get a canadian flag rather than a US one on my avatar, not that I have anything against the US, I'm just a proud Canadian EH!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293639.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293662.page GMT
The only HoC player is my friend's wife who is neither a powergamer nor a tournament player so she's fine to still use the current book.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293674.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293677.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293704.page GMT WD in order to have access to our spells.

This list feels much like the CSM book only more so because atleast with CSM you could still take "generic" daemons to go along with your troops, here they've taken not only daemons but beasts away from the chaos general as well.

Guess its a good thing I have two other competitive armies to play with cause chaos is going deep, deep, deep into a drawer till the full army book surfaces

PapaSmurf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293731.page GMT and make it a two parter? I seem to recall that the Blood
Angels list was in two White Dwarfs...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293736.page GMT WD in order to have access to our spells.
[/quote]
What I heard previously was that the chaos lores are gone and you use a handful of the BRB lores. MoT gives the sorcerer a larger selection to choose from and some kind of reroll. Or something.

Yep, major kick in the nuts. Sorry mortals. Planning on doing as Ozy said and let my HoC friends use their own book, less demons and beasts.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293739.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293758.page GMT WD in order to have access to our spells.
[/quote]
What I heard previously was that the chaos lores are gone and you use a handful of the BRB lores. MoT gives the sorcerer a larger selection to choose from and some kind of reroll. Or something.

Yep, major kick in the nuts. Sorry mortals. Planning on doing as Ozy said and let my HoC friends use their own book, less demons and beasts.

- Salvage[/quote]

Why less beasts too?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293828.page GMT
PapaSmurf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293846.page GMT
PapaSmurf
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293850.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293911.page GMT
PapaSmurf
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293961.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/293966.page GMT Because after making the new demon lores so incredibly ass-kickin' the developers couldn't decide whether to extend them to the mortals or keep the old ones with some rejiggering (like the horror spell for Tizz). So they flipped a coin, it landed on edge, and they proceeded to take a dump on the HoC spell lores too

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294124.page GMT

Here's hoping the actual army book will offer an army that's fun to play. I mean, even if you up all warrior stats by 1 and made them chosen for the same points, the army just lacks the fun of a mixed force. I don't care about dominating, I just want to at least [u]enjoy [/u]trying to win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294165.page GMT
I don't care about dominating, I just want to at least [u]enjoy [/u]trying to win.[/quote]

Agreed. Possibly one of the best put statements about how Warhammer [i]should[/i] be played. But... some people only play to win. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/294252.page GMT
My Tzeentch army just got slapped in the face. Sure, I played a different style (Lord on Disc, two Heroes on Chariots, Chosen Knights, Screamers, Hellcannon), but it was a viable, winnable and characteristic list.

Now it's useless, since I don't really have any models for Core units.

Unless I play in an environment that allows the old book, my Chaos army has to be shelved until the new book comes out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298832.page GMT Well? [b]Do[/b] you? Because if you don't, yeah, your army is pretty hosed until you buy some infantry. I feel your pain. I have enough infantry to make a unit of Warriors and a unit of Marauders, but I'll have to buy another box of Chaos Warriors to play at 2000 points. Your situation is... (counts on fingers) about three times as bad as mine.

If I were you, I'd shelve your army until the new army book comes out (assuming you can't keep using the old one). This "gets you by" list looks totally weaksauce. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298852.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298860.page GMT [/quote]

Once again, I find it hard to believe that you can preach the "spirit" of a game to someone within your own narrow framework. If people have fun playing competitively, then why hold it against them. Who are you to tell someone how to have fun?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/298986.page GMT list for an Article (yak, can we do that? Especially if they're
providing the lists for free?)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299550.page GMT WD list and continuing to use the Army Book. It's not like anything changes in the Army book because another book has different rules for daemons.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299553.page GMT for information, not really for a personal list or anything.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299571.page GMT
Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299611.page GMT WD list would have some cool new units. As it is, I will certainly use the old Army Book if I play FB soon. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299684.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299722.page GMT WD list would have some cool new units. As it is, I will certainly use the old Army Book if I play FB soon. [/quote]

Hi PP,

Out of personal curiosity, what kind of new units were you expecting?

Cheers
Dave]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299735.page GMT
The list does allow you to take 2 chariots for 1 Special slot, at only 100 pts each chariot, so that's a bonus. And the point reduction in the heroes/troops is a good thing. The trick will be if these improvements will carry over to the Army book.

The other semi-good thing is that in the recent WD, they have pictures of the new DE models and announce that DE will have a new army book in August. Which we already knew... but may add creedence to the rumor that the new Hordes of Chaos army book comes out in December.... which is only 6 months away.

So, like most of you I'm either continuing to use my current army book, or moving on to painting something else. Good thing is, we should only have to wait 6 months for Phil Kelly to finish the new books.

-Jmz]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299736.page GMT WD for only 3 or 4 pages worth of content.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299742.page GMT PP, and would like to see his answer, I don't think he said he was expecting new units. Just that he hoped to.

I imagine that pretty much all of us who have Mortals lists are hoping to get new units in compensation for the variety we've now lost. In April I painted two herds of gors/ungors, a chariot, and a shaman for my Hordes list. I really enjoyed using them for the ~7-8 games in which I got to. I strongly hope the eventual army book will give me new things to replace them and Furies, in part because variety = good, and in part because without shooting, and with the Core being so slow, the army is (for the interim) pretty darn short of fast support units to help deal with enemy skirmishers, shooters, and war machines.

I don't know if I would have said I *expected* new units in the WD list, but it might have constituted a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down, if I may borrow a metaphor from Mary Poppins.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299743.page GMT Diseased flagellants, tzeentchian thrall wizards, slaaneshi sex 'n drug fiends, and other cultists.

A jabberwock wouldn't hurt, either, while we're going through my Wish List.

EDIT: Some of those crazy Norse units from Man O' War would be good. Werewolves, especially.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299790.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299795.page GMT
November if the rumors are true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299796.page GMT The army had the look of something out of Moorcock's Elric and Corum books and it got into some pretty epic games with Orcs and other Chaos armies of the same type of build.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299814.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299845.page GMT Diseased flagellants, tzeentchian thrall wizards, slaaneshi sex 'n drug fiends, and other cultists.

A jabberwock wouldn't hurt, either, while we're going through my Wish List.

EDIT: Some of those crazy Norse units from Man O' War would be good. Werewolves, especially.[/quote]

Ahh, I guess that'd be why you're concerned. The "Get you by" lists never really introduce new units, just give you a way to use those you already have until the new Army Book/Codex is released, when we would typically introduce a new unit or two. Sorry for the confusion that has occurred.

Cheers
Dave]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299855.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299904.page GMT
The Blood Angels list wasn't called "Get You By" though. "Get You By" makes me
think of Ravening Hordes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/299928.page GMT IIRC).

They had to do something now Daemons is on the scene, as they've decided to keep all three chaos lists completely separate. Keeping them all able to access each others units gives too many combinations to keep balanced.

I am in favour of the nerfing of both Tzeentch and Khorne. Even dwarfs struggle to stop the current Tzeentch magic phase, and why bother with a magic phase if your opponenet has Khorne?

It's comparable to the old Ravening Hordes booklet.

Just take a moment and calm down.

I expect the lores will return when the new book is released.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300078.page GMT So the current list is "Get You By" because you don't have to buy any new stuff.
Does that make the codex a "Get You to Buy" list?

It's odd that they didn't just leave mortals as it is until the new book comes out though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300119.page GMT Da Boss]Heh heh.
So the current list is "Get You By" because you don't have to buy any new stuff.
Does that make the codex a "Get You to Buy" list?

It's odd that they didn't just leave mortals as it is until the new book comes out though. [/quote]

It's to encourage Demon players to go deep.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300125.page GMT
When people see the new list in WD, they are thinking to themselves, "Hey, there must be something new in here!" when in reality, there isn't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300128.page GMT books before tournament season begins, for one thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300141.page GMT
It's hardly world ending that there are two different sets of rules for daemons, since they're in different books. I dunno, it wouldn't confuse me much. And it'd be less work for GW, while not upsetting anyone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300146.page GMT
This seems totally unnecessary and it sucks to be a tournament going HoC player.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300231.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/300326.page GMT
It shows zero creativity, zero forethought, zero care and concern for how every single chaos mortal player used the list from the current book.

Really, 1 page of magic items? Moving the mounted marauders to special? Forcing Khorne players to include wizards to remain competitive?

This list is utter and complete garbage. Did an intern phone this in?

If there was some major power scaling down in fantasy battle going on like there is in 40k I would understand. But really - you put out some new power house VC list and then this junk? Are you kidding me?

Yes, some sort of 'bone' being thrown out there like including a new unit of cultist or whatever would have been nice but what would have been nicer is to not completely screw the HoC list.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/301446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/301446.page GMT 1. they were never gonna let hounds count as core as they r too cheap
2. M.horsemen were never gonna be core as only traditionally really elfy armies have core fast cav.
3. They don't want to introduce new units in this list because then they will HAVE to have them in the new book as people will be narked if they convert some models then they become redundant.
4. The only thing thats really harsh is that there are no cheap infil core units i.e. missile troops like every other army has so for your core you really have to spend about 500pnts to make it even worthwhile.
5. Core choices are all too expensive, just compare marauders to swordsmen - dearer cost, bigger bases, dearer command, no detachments, same stats. - CW halberds to swordmasters even chosen who are now 3pnts cheaper - -1 M, WS, no strike 1st, +4 pnts each and onlyn have +1T and AS.
6. Character equipment is through the roof! its cheaper for an enchanted shield for a lord than a normal 1! why as no other army has this

So it does all look bad right? well what about 3 units of 10 marauders with flails - just use them as bait or like deatchments, only 180pnts spent then go mad on lovely dragons and knights that are a lot cheaper.
I play Tzeentch so 6+ ward saves for 20pnts on units - yes please! just 1 save and i have made points back.
Plus the items that are there are pretty good too - chaos runesword is like the blade of blood but with no test to get wound and no restriction on no. of wounds. Staff of change now never runs out and can choose which dice to reroll but cant help dispel - nice.
M.Horses now get throwing axes for 1pnt - nice (but javelins are 4 pnts - doh)
Exalted champions - good before - now T5 and 10 pnts less!

But i'm sure it will be made good in the new book, dont expect core m.horses but in the wd id does say about plastic sets for the marauders so i am guessing marauder axe throwers from MOC - as long as they skirmish and are no more than 8pnts then all is good for an infil core unit. i'll bet some ogres and things wil make the transition too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/302261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/302261.page GMT
Two words: Chaos Dwarves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304593.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304641.page GMT WD for only 3 or 4 pages worth of content.[/quote]
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1520011_Warriors_of_Chaos.pdf

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304650.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304689.page GMT Yeah, there is. I don't have the right models to form a legal 2000 point army any more. So that's a problem, in my book. Also, the army looks really boring, so why should I even bother?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304699.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304699.page GMT Yeah, there is. I don't have the right models to form a legal 2000 point army any more. So that's a problem, in my book. Also, the army looks really boring, so why should I even bother?[/quote]
Why should you bother with anything? When army books are updated, people have to buy new models. People who refuse to do so will play another army or another game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304701.page GMT
Knights have lances that they can use even when not charging ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304727.page GMT
btw: Does this mean there's no such thing as a mark of
chaos undivided?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304733.page GMT
Right, so i've lost my dragon ogres, demons and beastmen, but my shaggoth can "count as" a chaos giant mutant monstrosity. I'll need to find a new build for my Chaos lord, but i may start taking a demon prince instead.

Other than that, i should be ok, army wise. I'm pretty much resigned to losing with this list (my main opponents are shooty empire and shooty dwarfs, difficult enough with a combined chaos army) but i'll see how things go.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/304835.page GMT
[b]Biggest Gain[/b]
- 90 point Exalted with T5

[b]Biggest Loss[/b]
- No Mark of Chaos Undivided Ld rerolls

[b]Runner-Up Losses[/b]
- No Tzeentch caster characters
- No ward saves beyond 6+
- No 'chaos big guys' unit
- No new units
- Marauder horsemen to special

This is of course ignoring the lack of demons / beasts.

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305192.page GMT
The points reductions in Warriors, Knights, and Chariots is good news.

Throwing axes on Marauder Horsemen rock at 1 pt per model!

The Banner of the gods making all units stubborn within 12" coupled with the fact that the BsB can
now use a shield means the banner has some definite possibilities (especially if you are running
Slaanesh / Nurgle to avoid autobreak).

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305220.page GMT
I had my first game with the new list last night, though it wasn't a "real" game. I was playing a 2 on 2 battle, my chaos + a friend's O&G teamed up against Dwarves and Empire. 650pts per player. Not a real test, but so far it confirmed my thoughts. Playable, and warriors still suck badly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305242.page GMT elsewhere. If we could get information compiled, maybe
someone could write the changes:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212646.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305244.page GMT
Agreed. Warriors are still 0-1 IMO. Chosen being the only decent option (still overpriced with the now necessary Mark) but at least playable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305264.page GMT
I'm not using it. And if the new real book resembles this, I won't use that either, and I'll gladly refrain from joining any tournaments for the duration. I wouldn't want to play in them anyway. I put a lot of work into converting Slaaneshi chaos trolls and really cool dragon ogres with two hand weapons, and I'll be damned if I'm going to stand for having them tossed aside so completely.

Of course, the HoC book doesn't say anything about including beast units, but the beast of chaos book says its units may be used in a mortal army. So really no matter what the new HoC book has in it, the beasts book still says I can take units from there to include in it. Score!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305285.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305307.page GMT Well ... I disagree on that point, for anything past the characters. Tizz [i]characters[/i] used to be these really unique combat casters with a subpar-but-decent-and-interesting (and oddly good for combat!) lore behind their beefy stats. And everything else was worse than their undivided versions but gave the caster characters some more dice to play with.

Now, MoT gives everybody something they can use, as opposed to making them batteries for the wizards (and their not great lore) and otherwise pretty terrible Ld-wise. Partially this is because MoCU is now defunct, so ANY mark makes things better by default. Pity about no more tizz combat casters, and I also think that the character's ward save should be 5+ and 5 points more, though I suppose being able to buy 10 point talismans of protection for every character (without using item allowance) is something

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/305327.page GMT Yeah, there is. I don't have the right models to form a legal 2000 point army any more. So that's a problem, in my book. Also, the army looks really boring, so why should I even bother?[/quote]
Why should you bother with anything? When army books are updated, people have to buy new models. People who refuse to do so will play another army or another game.[/quote]
Or they keep using the old Army Book, which is what I'm going to do, at least until the new book comes out. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/306606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/306606.page GMT
you just cant cherry pick from the new daemons book and use in old HoC.

we find that works fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/306983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/306983.page GMT
I'm not sure why the characters needed to be removed, and the removal of the Ld re-roll for only a modest points decrease which was already necessary seems almost like an uninteded omission ("oops, we forgot to explicitly print it" type thing) even though I'm sure its not. Also the change of Knights and mounted marauders to Special seems like it was done for the sole purpose of simply filling out Special choices rather than any balance issue.

It really looks like a 15 minute copy-pasta job by an intern rather than a well thought out temporary army list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307009.page GMT Blood Angels Mephiston is AWESOME list. It's a placeholder.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307033.page GMT Blood Angels Mephiston is AWESOME list. It's a placeholder.[/quote]

Oh, I totally understand, but at the same time I could have written that whole army list in 10 minutes, and its apparent thats how long GW spent on it as well. I mean, for a relatively core army, one would think they could put a bit more time into the army for the players using the list for 6ish months. The lack of the Ld reroll for non-marked troops and several other things really stands out as something that was simply written up as the WD was going to the printers in two hours rather than something that effort was put in to.

That said, I'm still going to give it a go as I haven't bought the Hordes book (just getting into Fantasy) and don't really want to spend $22 on a book I'll use a couple times before its replaced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307077.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211866/307077.page GMT