http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net

I played a 2,000 Ork/Tau meatgrinder game last night with my buddy and it was one of the funnest games I've ever played.
A fully tricked out squad of Nobz as a troop choice in a trukk that mulched fire warriors and his Farsight Commander who
hated orks and was mowing through boyz like they were grots was a blast.

Our lists never would made any tourny but it was a hoot to watch the other guys eyes bugg out when he would try over
and over to kill the Nobz (with borks and painboy), even with twin linked rail guns and fail while I crashed 20 boy squads
into his commander and crisis suit squads over and over and only managed to get a couple of drones removed.

Everybody is different and I probably wouldn't do all that well in a tourny except to annoy another player with
hoots and hollers when my SAG blows up my own stuff.

Do you play for the fun factor or is the competition that drives you?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294727.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294731.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294734.page GMT
Ditto]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294738.page GMT
Yessir.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294739.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294742.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294745.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294771.page GMT
Now, I can't say I won't be able to have fun if I am not winning. If I am constantly losing, odds are I won't be having fun, but those are two seperate things. I think it raelly depends who you are playing too. I can win a game and have no fun because my opponent: played like a retard, was insulting, complained the entire game, argued to death a rule they could not read correctly. I've had some great and fun games against opponents who cheerily beat my ass into the ground. What I find odd is if I beat the everliving out of someone who 'plays for fun, not to win' then they complain about my drive to win (which I thought they didn't care about in the first place).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/294784.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295002.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295012.page GMT not trying to win. That's just bad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295037.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295050.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295059.page GMT not trying to win. That's just bad.[/quote]

Id say there is a difference between "not trying to win" and "I may win, or I may lose, but these Fanatics are funny as heck either way!" When I play, I play to have fun, with winning a nice side dish, or dessert perhaps, after the main meal.

besides, if you play with Orcs you HAVE to want a fun game, cause if you dont have a sense of humor then you are with the wrong army! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295064.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295084.page GMT
I build my lists to win. I then take a lot of time and effort to paint them up as well as I can. I never field an unpainted model. So if I'm playing with hundreds of hours of my time, and it's not playing like I hoped, it's frustrating.

That's not to say I've never had a fun game that ended in a loss. Just that most of the time if I'm losing, it's going to be more frustrating than fun.

Now that I think about it, I think I'm probably more likely to have fun losing with one of my old armys that I finished painting long ago, than I am with a brand new one. The time and effort of painting them isn't so fresh in my mind, I guess.

I can remember how pissed I was when my Eldar, who I REALLY worked on painting up, got wiped off the table by Orcs. Made me stop painting for a good 2-3 months.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295099.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295165.page GMT
[b]Everyone[/b] plays to win.

No one plays to lose and no one plays to draw.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295343.page GMT
I’ve been around gaming clubs where the culture was to win at all costs and while I was successful I find games became very tactically limited, everyone mimicked one of a handful of dominant builds (this was in Bloodbowl). I’ve also been around groups that were almost random in their designs, everything for fun and silliness, and I probably liked that even less (that was in 40k and Necromunda).

But there is a sensible middle ground. Where people will try interesting new strategies for variety, and not worry about winning every single game, but the strategies will still challenge you and force you to think of something clever to counter them.

And beyond all that, the most important thing is a pretty looking battleboard, with two good looking armies and excellent terrain. That’s enough fun already.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295374.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295540.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295545.page GMT gods will come and have their revenge...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295562.page GMT ftw, then I think it's almost disrespectful to your opponent, there's no point playing a disinterested party. There is a balance though, I don't min/max but I do try to field a competetive list, even if it is dictated by the models I like, and I will atempt to beat any given opponent. If I don't and the game was fun, I couldn't care less. It's when I lose to a prick that it's shite. If you beat a prick at least you get a little bit of a guilty pride boost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295571.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295658.page GMT
You can have a fun game and still lose, but you can have the fun sucked out of a game quicker than snotlings turn into breakfast, and at that point I dont care if I win or lose, I dont wanna be there anymore.

Example- (Forward, I was still very very new in WHFB at this time and very naive in my tactics and approach, such and thinking Shamans werent worth it and too expensive... Ive gotten better..) Anyways.. I played a standard orc army, I had Azhag as my general. My opponent turned out an all Tzneetch demon army, this is back in Storm of Chaos had just come out, and of course tore me up. A spell turned a handful of Night Gobbos into horrors (glad they changed it to a 3/1 rule now) and of course the fanatics fly every which-a-way and in doing so take out my war machines. I didnt field any Arrer Boyz so the screamers every turn cause several hits and just bounced around the board with me helpless. Orcs being know for their maneuverability and all.... Poor old Azhag succumbed to a leadership roll and abandoned the army to join the Chaos Gods in the north, THAT part I knew was bad luck, but it just added the incredible frustration which I still feel to this day. Im starting my Angel Army based on the Deamon book and I refuse to field screamers based on this experience.

Though Justice was had against the same player a few months ago when I had Gork's Warpath stomp his army into oblivion on 4/6 turns! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295697.page GMT
[b]Everyone[/b] plays to win.

No one plays to lose and no one plays to draw.

BYE[/quote]

But draws are 90% of the time the best games ever (in my case).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295769.page GMT
[b]Everyone[/b] plays to win.

No one plays to lose and no one plays to draw.

BYE[/quote]

But draws are 90% of the time the best games ever (in my case).[/quote]

Agreed. Close games are lot more fun I think. There is more tension and while some people have no problem slaughtering an opponent through any means necessary, If I beat someone too easily I feel cheated as well... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295771.page GMT
I want everyone I play to play to win. I certainly am. Some of you might not agree with me, but I consider a player who is not trying to win the game to have bad sportsmanship. The implication is that you're throwing a game, and it suggests to your opponent an attitude of casual contempt, as if you didn't respect him enough to try ( though I'm aware that is probably not the case). Miniatures, at least 40k, are competitive. If I want to play a non-zero sum game I can always go to RPGs.

On the other hand, I'll play the army that appeals to me visually and from a fluff perspective. I won't play a du jour army for the purpose of making it easier to win games. If the rules make a army build that I don't particularly care for the most powerful build, then I view that as a quirk in the rules that is unfortunate, but not a reason to change my army build.

My Eldar army has zero falcons, two wraithlords with wraithswords, and a twenty man guardian squad. I like the models, the army, and the theme, and I do manage to win with it. My answer to those who would say the wraithlord CC build is gimped is that the experience of your opponent slipping up and allowing them to slam into his army is not to be missed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295776.page GMT
I voted 'Fun'. For me, winning is part of the fun.....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295784.page GMT
Like screamers in a Deamon list may be very effective. But I wont ever field them because I hates them forever precious... Or goblin wolf riders... they are okay I guess, but I dont care for them, not my style, so I dont field them too often no matter how good fast cav may be against some armies.

I personally want to field an All Tree Army. I have yet to do so, but I frakkin love when the Ents in LOTR trash Isengard and whoop up. I used to make Tree based green decks in magic as well. People say 2 treemen is cheese, but Im not fielding it because of its power, but rather for fluff purposes. That and your selections are rather limited with all trees.

Fanatics, not always the most effective choices, but good lordy are they fun to field. And one thing about ALWAYS taking fanatics is that I was able to bluff my friend to be terrified of the oncoming unit of Night Gobbos even though I had none that game.

So basically, would you field something you dont care for even if its more effective?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295800.page GMT
But when you made your list, set down your models and started playing did you ever, at any point, say to yourself:

"[i]Oh yeah! Gonna get my draw on! Cannot [b]wait[/b] to draw! YEAH![/i]"

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295862.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295862.page GMT
But when you made your list, set down your models and started playing did you ever, at any point, say to yourself:

"[i]Oh yeah! Gonna get my draw on! Cannot [b]wait[/b] to draw! YEAH![/i]"

BYE[/quote]

Well now you're just being silly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295864.page GMT
Its funny, cause I haven't lost a game for about 4 or 5 years now, so it is a bit wierd asking about what I like. I guess if I didn't like winning, I wouldn''t enjoy playing, but then again, I wouldn't stop if I did go on a losing streak.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295940.page GMT
[b]Everyone[/b] plays to win.

No one plays to lose and no one plays to draw.

BYE[/quote]

But draws are 90% of the time the best games ever (in my case).[/quote]

But people don't play with the objective to achieve a draw.Both players strive to win, neither prevails but the challenge and drama is fun.
I think Ozymandius said it best, something to the effect of:

The objective of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295952.page GMT
But when you made your list, set down your models and started playing did you ever, at any point, say to yourself:

"[i]Oh yeah! Gonna get my draw on! Cannot [b]wait[/b] to draw! YEAH![/i]"

BYE[/quote]

Rocky lost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/295990.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296048.page GMT
What goes through the mind of the guy who fields the Brit RAF, seeing as its the cheese McPlease on the boards here. What goes through THAT guys head?

"Im gonna win no matter what!!" ?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296095.page GMT
On the other hand while I am not in the least bit competitive and enjoy games that allow collaborative play over ones that are purely competitive in nature (I'm an old RPG hack at heart), I can get a certain PERVERSE satisfaction from winning if I am playing someone else who "really wants to win". But to be honest, when dice (and therefore blind chance) play such a large part of the game I get minimal satisfaction in knowing that the difference between me winning or my opponent was simply my ability to roll more 6's. Getting some satisfaction out of winning 40k - which is so dice-based and random - feels only a little more appropriate than doing a lap of honour would after beating my 5-year-old son at Snakes and Ladders!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296096.page GMT
What goes through the mind of the guy who fields the Brit RAF, seeing as its the cheese McPlease on the boards here. What goes through THAT guys head?

"Im gonna win no matter what!!" ?[/quote]

I think what we are getting at is the difference between winning with a fluffy, "fair" army, and winning by spending a lot of effort in squeezing out the utmost cheese from your army list.

Winning "fairly" in this contest means giving your opponent a chance to win, or at least the opportunity for playing an enjoyable game. Winning by employing a dull list and frustrating and irritating tactics (such as sitting at the far end of the board and shooting, while not even attempting to seize objectives, for instance) is not considered "fair" by many players. Or at least by those that don;t enjoy such match-ups.

It's like organising a pub-team five-a-side game against another pub, only to find they've stuffed their team with professionals... sure its a game, but you aren't going to have much fun playing it under those circumstances, and recording the outcome as anything other than a hollow win is pretty childish.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296104.page GMT WH, but as far as 40k equivalents like tri-Falcon and Nidzilla are concerned, I don't have a problem with them. Who am I to dictate how my opponent chooses to build their list? I don't see what grounds one has to complain regardless of where one falls on the spectrum. If I claim not to care about winning, then I should be able to have fun while getting stomped, right? If, on the other hand, I want to win at all costs, then it's my own fault for not bringing an equally competitive list, isn't it? Too often, "play fair" just means "play it my way."

Bear in mind, though, that I speak as someone who only plays 40k, in which there has yet to be a truly unbeatable list. If the RAF is truly a win button, then I guess that's a little different.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/211958/296204.page GMT