http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net DA hizzzous)... Ahem.... Anyways...

It was mentioned on both shows, and now recently joining Dakka it is even more apparent that 40k is far and away the more popular game.

Im curious as to WHY?

I play fantasy, my friends play fantasy. They dabble in 40k a bit, but not near enough as WHFB. For the past several years Ive heard them go on about the rules in 40k being horrible. (there was even a running joke where one friend would turn to another and say 'Hey, quick game of 40k?' and then proceed to do Rock Paper Scissors) 4th Ed help a lot I hear, and 5th ed is coming out now, so hopefully it will be better.

Mechanics aside, why are people drawn to 40k over fantasy? At least to cause such a large discrepancy between the number of players. Is it the fluff? the models? the huge giant machine guns trying to compensate for something else?

Okay, bashing aside, Id like to hear why people play 40k and not Fantasy. What is your take and reason?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297132.page GMT
The saga of the Traitor legions of the Chaos Space Marines just isn't matched in any other game. The Death Korps of Krieg has no fantasy counterpart. The universe is overall much more epic and widespread in 40k than in fantasy. You just don't get the massed ranks of innumerable guardsmen and tanks without number churning the world to ruin fighting against the near infinite forces of the massive tyranid hive mind falling from the skies in Fantasy. Personally I find the background and visual feel much more appealing than fantasy. I prefer Autocannons, tanks and Terminators to wizards and dragons. I'll agree the 40k ruleset could use a huge redo.

That said, I do very much like the fantasy background as well, but just not as much as 40k. The battles in fantasy are also much different than 40k ones. While 40k has its problems, it seems a much more mobile game than fantasy, even if directional placement of units matters more in fantasy.

Also, after a long time of looking at it, I've finally decided to dive into fantasy with Daemons (although I would have rather done Hordes, but they are going to undergo major changes in rapid succession). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297144.page GMT 40k universe is deep, broad, and while it steals shamelessly, it does so well and with good taste.

In all honesty, i think the gameplay is more varied in 40k as well. In fantasy, you have ranks and flanks, MSU, skirmishers, gunlines, and flying circus and other oddities. In 40k, you can go infantry horde, mechanized, tank heavy, skimmer heavy, monster heavy, assaulty, shooty, drop troops, etc. etc. The combat resolution system of fantasy is what makes it a better wargamer, but it also allows nearly any army to win by playing it's game plan. in 40k, armies win through different means.

Also, 40k supports a wider range of missions and variants (combat patrol, apoc). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297148.page GMT 40k is a *lot* easier to get into, and the 40k game mechanics are less fiddly.

Plus, 40k has giant robots. Who doesn't like giant robots?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297149.page GMT Plus, 40k has giant robots. Who doesn't like giant robots?[/quote]

Honestly? Me. Mecha, be it Gundam, Robotech, or Evangelion, I just never really dug. The only reason I finished Evangelion is that the Mechas, Evas, were used as a means, not the as the show itself. I also didnt get into Escaflone, though I hear its awesome....

So giant robots... not my thing.... well... Aside from Voltron. Though I think voltron comes from my love of the 4 (or 5) classical elements....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297151.page GMT 40K. Now I can hardly get a game of anything else!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297162.page GMT 40k is, to me, pretty iconic. Both games are derivative of so many things (but isn't everything these days?) but 40k just feels.... epic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297172.page GMT
Although, according to a recent poll, LotR beats them both: [url]http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90516[/url]

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297175.page GMT
I prefer 40K and I think it's down to lots of minor reasons...

Small 'cheap' (££) games are easier, a couple of small squads skimishing is more fun than a couple of similar WFB egiments, whether they're ranked or not, there's a little more variety of how they can be armed etc. WFB doe have different weapon options but little in the way of special equipment - e.g. vet sarg with power fist, squad with ML and PG

Many 40K squads are half the size of a WFB regient - doesn't take as long to paint so more time can be spent on it

much more variety in games

Personally I don't like wfb movement system, it a bit too dependant on direction, probably lack of practise.

they're different games - 40K although you're the 'general' you still feel a bit more a part of the game due to it's cinematic nature (being pushed even more in 5th ed) where as WFB I've always felt more like the general who sits at the back telling his troops what to do and doesn't really get that involved.

I prefer 40Ks background

40K seems easier to 'theme' an army, partly due to (usually) having less models - more modelling time per model, and with tanks etc they can be converted much more with them still being recognisable, everything has a standard look, whereas WFB with all the different magic items etc. it's not always easy to distinguish what a conversion is meant to represent, especially if you're unused to the army.

I did start off with WFB an d played it for several years, but then switched to 40K and I can't see myself going back anytime soon. It could also be that as 'more' people play 40K it's easier to find an opponent, you see more armes (although there's way too much power armour out there). When I go into the flgs there's always a game of 40K on the go, the only time I've seen wfb being played in the last two years has been for the demo games!!! Could also be down to forgeworld etc.doing far more with 40K than wfb, after all a universe is infinate, where the wfb world has limits, there's only so many huge wars, races, famous heros it can support with some level of believability about it.

however, mordhiem vs necromunda, I'm mordheim all the way!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297179.page GMT FW and Shadowsun variants) but Dreads are cool and so are titans, generally.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297181.page GMT 40k?

I mean, after 20 years, I should know better, right?

I like SF, and I've never really liked fantasy. 40k shamelessly appropriated concepts from all of my favourite SF novels and put them into one cohesive (mostly) universe.

I guess it comes down to space-ships, guns and stuff blowing up. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297182.page GMT
I like 40K because it is the most widely played SF wargame.

(Having said that, Classic Battletech, Infinity and AT43 look like good alternatives.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297184.page GMT HTH fight or sword fight, but usually you can't have sword fighting and tanks and space ships at the same time.

Star Wars managed to do it, and so does 40K, so that's why I like it.

I can have all my tanks and explosions and huge guns and walkers etc., and still have heroic sword fights at the end of it all.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297188.page GMT HTH fight or sword fight, but usually you can't have sword fighting and tanks and space ships at the same time.

Star Wars managed to do it, and so does 40K, so that's why I like it.

I can have all my tanks and explosions and huge guns and walkers etc., and still have heroic sword fights at the end of it all.

BYE[/quote]

well said. 40k is just fun.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297195.page GMT 40k a few years back.. We went to this inductory thing at Games Workshop where we battled Chaos vs Necrons.

The night before i'd seen I-Robot on TV and that was it... I was hooked ^,^

Upon the release of Ogre Kingdoms I made a small 500pt army which I took to a few local clubs, despite winning 3:1 of my matches I've just never been snagged to Fanstasy.

Also, to those of you who have heard of/played the MMOFPS Planetside, that game really fuelled my interest in 40k]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297202.page GMT 40k is a quick, fun game. Rules are fairly simple and the mechanics are forgiving.

Fantasy is done at deployment. If the matchups are bad, there is very little you can do.

My favorite joke about the difference is that people who play WFB can read.

I think that, in my area at least, the 40k players are more accepting of whatever you bring. In WFB, people seem to be more persnickity - much like historicals where people get upset when you have the wrong color tabs on Russian Guard Infantry.

40k is more beer and pretzel and made for fun. WFB with its more restrictive movement rules and LOS is more rule-lawyery.

For a fun game, I would rather play 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297209.page GMT
Me fail english? That's unpossible!

I was brought into the game by my friends at high school, and loved all the fluffy goodness, the models, and the fact that playing a game is just good fun! I've been looking at starting a WFB army for years now, but when I really think about it I always decide that I'd rather spend my time and money on something new in 40K, as WFB seems like a much greater undertaking than throwing together a few squads for a Combat Patrol.

Plus, 40K has Dreadnoughts. You can't get much cooler than that!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297216.page GMT 40k universe is deep, broad, and while it steals shamelessly, it does so well and with good taste.[/quote][i]Nailed[/i] it. The creators were very, very smart thieves. Good writers crib, great writers steal. And not only did they steal, they stole from Blade Runner, Alien, Tolkien, the Bible, Camelot, Wagner, Moorcock, mythology, Lovecraft, and actual good sci-fi. It's easy to steal, but it's very hard to make so many disparate concepts (great individually) actually form a compelling and cohesive universe with it's own flavor.

The 40k universe can literally adapt itself to almost any gamer/audience desire for drama, action, horror, etc. It is, in my opinion, one of the most capable fictional playgrounds ever conceived.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297338.page GMT

Yeah, it's the background paired with good models and the openness to convert, scratch build, etc.

40k also feels more "open" than WFB or PP stuff. You can imagine anything happening in the 40k universe even though it can be super detailed at the same time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297346.page GMT 40K in my group for the following reasons.


1. 40k has terrible terrible rules

2. 40K has a higher tool ratio with it's players

3. 40K is more attractive to 8-16 year olds

4. Fantasy has better players

5. Fantasy has Indy Grand Tournaments]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297347.page GMT 40K is checkers. Fantasy is chess.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297363.page GMT
1) I like the rule

2) I like the players I meet

3) I am 26. Most people I know who play are older

Etc]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297373.page GMT 40k because it *is* more popular where I play. I simply am more likely to get a game at any given time with 40k. I also like the imagery and background of the 40k universe. With the exception of the Empire, and perhaps Dwarves and the lizardmen/lustria stuff, I just don't find WHFB fluff that compelling.

Another reason I like 40k is the very reason that some WHFB and historicals people dislike it. It is the pure adolescent pleasure of it. Big guns, big dudes, anatomically improbable women. Its kind of refreshing to have a little of that once in a while.

That being said I rarely play fantasy and really would like to do so. I love the movement, which is very regimented and tight. Basically I think of 40k and then adding on top an extra dimension of depth, primarily from the more complex movement phase. I really like the entire ECW type battles, which is of course why I like empire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297374.page GMT 40K is checkers. Fantasy is chess.[/quote]Then what is chess?

And I'd argue 40K is like checkers with Christina Ricci and WHFB is chess with Colin Firth.

That means you are queer ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297379.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297394.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297422.page GMT
But I see what you are getting at.

I like 40k for the fluff and conversion, as has been stated quite a bit in this thread. I am just starting Fantasy, but only because some of my friends play. Honestly I am fantasied well nigh to death anymore, and have become fairly set in what is "right" when it comes to the matter. Anymore a lot of fantasy just seems to be "Tolkien, but with a twist!" which is really old.
40k also has the advantage of making nearly any wierd army idea feasible in terms of fitting with the universe, instead of say my Celtic mythological counts as Chaos Mortals army, which just is there. It might be mostly in my head, but WHFB just seems more boxed in conceptually.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297460.page GMT WHFB just seems more boxed in conceptually.[/quote]
Case in point, you can play fantasy with properly sized blank bases, preferrably colored to signify what rules they use. Using MS Paint, let's say, and an online dice roller ... The rules and the diversity of possible armies are the draw in fantasy, less the modeling aspect. You can and should make great looking armies and the game is of course at its best when two excellent painted armies go at it on great terrain. But still, you can run the game purely conceptually and the [i]game[/i] aspect remains strong divested of the visual aspect.

3rd ed. 40k I was attracted to because it was SO stream-lined and simpler than the fantasy I'd been playing for years and the 2nd ed. I'd been avoiding. Things are becoming more and more complicated - 5th with blocked LoS, run, allocating wounds, etc makes it more so - but I still like 40k because it's ultimately simple to play. Put down cool models, roll LOTS of dice, things go away. Speaking of cool models, as noted the modeling aspect is great in 40k. You really can justify anything and have fun making it happen on those round bases.

The GrimDark background of 40k is also a big draw, a great polyglot of sci fi elements. Fantasy's background was interesting to me when I was 12, but I grew up into the dark future and prefer to play in its skull-laden embrace.

[quote=dienekes96]Then what is chess?[/quote]
Funny thing, I was playing chess the other night after having played a bunch of fantasy in the last year and found myself drawing parallels with the much more complicated wargame. Movement is everything in fantasy and luck the next most important element, and chess was feeling like again pure movement but without that messy luck involved. And where both armies are identical, playing on featureless terrain ...

- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297481.page GMT But it would be just that...a joke. Ricci also has a huge forehead, but she offsets that by being ridiculously sexy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297485.page GMT 40k is what my friends play.
2) Models. On the whole, I like 40k models better, not just because of sculpts, but also because I think aliens with high-tech guns and swarms of space-bug-dinosaurs are more exciting than ranked blocks of more Tolkien clones. 40k's rules on upgrades and squad mechanics, for instance, also seem to do a better job of enabling the creation, presentation, and in-game impact of personalized, characterful models.

I'll go against the grain and say that I don't care for any of GW's fluff; I think that the 40k background especially takes itself far, far too seriously. [Puts on flame-retardant armor] I just can't see it as anything more than an elaborate justification for having a universe that is essentially a feudal fantasy setting transplanted into space. It's a mile wide and an inch deep; a metric ton of background material, but none of the consideration for making a consistent and plausible world that (I think) makes for good sci-fi. Of course, I may be biased because I don't like any of the imperial factions; I don't own a single imperial model and can't see that ever changing. [/Takes off flame-retardant armor]

Of course, that's all just my personal opinion. And as long as the fluff still supports the creation of cool-looking alien models for the game, then it's accomplishing everything I want from it. That's what it all comes down to: I like 40k for the models and because I know people who play it. If I wanted a game for its rules or fiction, I wouldn't play whfb; I'd play a game from another company entirely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297499.page GMT
1) I like the rule

2) I like the players I meet

3) I am 26. Most people I know who play are older

Etc[/quote]

1. I assume you either never played before 3rd edition and don't play alternatives.

2. The majority of 40K players are nice, there are also a higher level of tools (of all ages). I have yet to meet TFG at any fantasy tournment I have been to or ran. I am guaranteed to get at least one and sometimes 2 TFG's at 40K events.

3. You are the exception, go to a fantasy vs a 40k tournement and count the number of kids. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297500.page GMT
The reason I started playing and do play it over fantasy are my friends. They all play 40k so I play 40k. They got me into it. Now I love it. I love the models they look a lot better, in my opinion, than fantasy models. And overall if I was going to play something fantasy, I'd just paint a single Fantasy model as a DnD character. DnD is the main reason I don't play fantasy. DnD is a better fantasy rules set. And I get to be my own dude in DnD.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297511.page GMT
The reason I started playing and do play it over fantasy are my friends. They all play 40k so I play 40k. They got me into it. Now I love it. I love the models they look a lot better, in my opinion, than fantasy models. And overall if I was going to play something fantasy, I'd just paint a single Fantasy model as a DnD character. DnD is the main reason I don't play fantasy. DnD is a better fantasy rules set. And I get to be my own dude in DnD.[/quote]

Come by the GW shop nearby after school. The kids love it!

I'm insanely jealous as an adult. I mean, my friends played sports.

What's with that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297526.page GMT
Although, according to a recent poll, LotR beats them both: [url]http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90516[/url]

[/quote]

Scary, but not surprising, given that GW refuses to abandon LotR, but instead continues to expand the LotR line.

What I can't figure out is where these LotR players are.

It's like the typical LotR player refuses to have anything to do with 40k or WFB players...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297545.page GMT
Omnipresence:
   I can move just about move anywhere in the states and find 40k opponents, easily

Cross-compatibility:
   you can pack just about anything you want and have it mostly work into the grab-bag of 40k 'universe' (with some rules writing) and have it work
   you could drop warmachine, void, vor ancient greeks, medieval knights tweak it a bit to fit it and BOOM new army
   but then again I tend to have a bit of a Rogue Trader mindset

plus the soul crushing hopelessness makes me feel all warm and fuzzy... (it's like an entire universe of New Jersey)

anyway, both rule-sets are lacking. Warmaster & Epic do a much better job at representing actual battles....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297553.page GMT
1) I like the rule

2) I like the players I meet

3) I am 26. Most people I know who play are older

Etc[/quote]

1. I assume you either never played before 3rd edition and don't play alternatives.

2. The majority of 40K players are nice, there are also a higher level of tools (of all ages). I have yet to meet TFG at any fantasy tournment I have been to or ran. I am guaranteed to get at least one and sometimes 2 TFG's at 40K events.

3. You are the exception, go to a fantasy vs a 40k tournement and count the number of kids. [/quote]

I too find your points perplexing. For me the rules in 40k are superior. I love the aspect that I can do what I want when I want.

As for the players, I dropped fantasy because of all the tools. Fantasy players, in my experiance(this may have just been regional) are those guys that have never kissed a girl and are devoid of amy social skills

As for the proportion of kids at tourneys, hell I was the youngest guy at the last 40k RTT at 24, and the fantasy one boasted a 13 year old. While that example may seem an oddity, how many kids were at Adepticon?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297564.page GMT Id like to hear why people play 40k and not Fantasy. What is your take and reason?[/quote]

I used to play Fantasy exclusively, back in 3rd edition. I started playing Necromunda, which garnerd me a small taste of the 40k universe. I really got into the 40k universe when Epic 40k came out. I loved that game so much! I still think it (Epic 40k) and Necromunda are the two best GW games ever.
When 3rd edition 40k come out and my buddy brought over an actual Space Marine, I thought, "What a cool-looking model! It's all chunky and stuff..."

Since I played High Elves in WHFB at the time (I played Chaos more, but I liked HE too), I decided to try out the Eldar while he did Marines. I actually proxied some High Elves for Eldar. haha.

Anyway, a little while later, the new edition of WHFB (5th, I think?) came out and they adopted the Mordheim style of Magic, using die rolls instead of the card system. I played three games under the new version and I have not played a game a Fantasy since. I LOATHED (and still do) the die system for casting and dispelling. In my opinion, the card system was far and away better. The second and final nail in the WHFB coffin, for me, was when they changed the Chaos Beastmen rules and points. The Gors went from 2 wounds to one wound and half the points. Plus, they made Ungors obsolete in that they formed mixed units of Gors/Ungors. I've never forgiven GW for that.

I think the 40k background is far more detailed and is a much richer story than Fantasy. Also, the fantasy genre is a bit played out.

The reality, though, is that I didn't leave Fantasy for 40k so much as I left Fantasy completely and then 40k filled the void.



Stupid, stupid, stupid die-roll magic phase.



Ghidorah]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297565.page GMT I too find your points perplexing. For me the rules in 40k are superior. I love the aspect that I can do what I want when I want. [/quote]

I guess there really are people who will talk about the understated genius of Uwe Boll compared to the stodgy idiocy of Hitchcock or the pretentiousness of Kurosawa.

[quote=Darkness]As for the players, I dropped fantasy because of all the tools. Fantasy players, in my experiance(this may have just been regional) are those guys that have never kissed a girl and are devoid of amy social skills[/quote]

I think you live in Bizzarro world at this point

[quote=Darkness]As for the proportion of kids at tourneys, hell I was the youngest guy at the last 40k RTT at 24, and the fantasy one boasted a 13 year old. While that example may seem an oddity, how many kids were at Adepticon? [/quote]

How many kids were at the 20 or so Fantasy GT not run by GW? I have never run into one. I know both GW 40K GT I attended had their share of kids I always got stuck with them in the 1rst round and he fantasy side had no kids. I also remember one kid at a RTT fantasy tournment drug there by his dad who played but usually 4 or 5 kids at any given RTT for 40K.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297574.page GMT GTs, GTs, and Adepticon boast at least 3 times the amount of players for 40k over fantasy. So I guess a few kids would be included.

Fantasy is not a game of great tactical genius, and neither is 40k. Fantasy is a game of wits and tension whereas 40k is actually fun.

The only good thing about Fantasy is that is spawned Blood Bowl.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297587.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297591.page GMT 40k has everything that fantasy has, but with guns. You got orcs? We got orks with guns. And tanks. And giant robots. Plus, 40k has chainsaw swords. ing chainsaw swords!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297596.page GMT WHFB takes too long to paint and they look messy because they're all packed together in regiments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297604.page GMT LotR player refuses to have anything to do with 40k or WFB players...[/quote]
That's because, by and large, 40K and FB players heap scorn and abuse upon LotR players. I can't blame them for not wanting to hang around with us; we're holes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297642.page GMT 40K and WHFB.

I like 40K because it's quite adaptable and players are mostly on equal level. I like WHFB because it is more challenging and like 40K mostly equal. I know under both systems there are different tiers where armies fall under.

WHFB players are friendlier and mostly more mature in my experience. Unfortunately most of them are also quite prejudiced towards 40K players and that's the part I do not like. I saw this years ago with historical gamers looking down their noses at GW gamers. Now the local historical scene is almost gone except for FOW.

Just my .02]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297652.page GMT LotR player refuses to have anything to do with 40k or WFB players...[/quote]
That's because, by and large, 40K and FB players heap scorn and abuse upon LotR players. I can't blame them for not wanting to hang around with us; we're holes.[/quote]

I don't think I've ever *seen* a game of LotR played, and I've only seen it on the shelf (and only two or three boxes and maybe two blister sets) at one place.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297686.page GMT
'Nuff said.

And any game that lets you abbreviate

"Assault Cannon"

into

"Ass Cannon" has my vote.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297690.page GMT 40k for a period of time, mainly because it was more popular. There is a ravenous crowd of Sci-fi fans, much more than fantasy it would seem, and it seemed like a good way to get in games. Eventually the game and my playstyles became stagnant, and when there was around 2/30 players I'd enjoy playing a game that met my standards of being challanging, fun, and painted at the same time, I had to drop out.

Fantasy is a better game. It suffers from problems with: price and painting of regiments, the feeling of hopelessness when a dragons on the flank, and a pretty overdone setting. I believe it does everything else better than 40k, even 'Fun-factor']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297692.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297692.page GMT
I don’t have any preference based on setting. Both have fairly similar underlying themes, motifs and style. Stories in both setting have the same tendency to devolve into lists of awesome butchery performed by special characters. I have no real preference for sci-fi or fantasy.

I don’t really care if there are more kids in one game or the other, I play people I know and like to hang around and so tournament ratios couldn’t be less relevant.

My preference for 40K comes from the look of the game in play. 20 painted models in rank formation tend to blend into each other and look far less spectacular and 20 men in 40K’s loose unit formation. A full army looks a lot more spectacular as a result.

Also, WHFB seems to be built for a larger scale than the armies used in game. You have units of 20 men moving like they’re 100+ men. Seeing these blocks of 20 men set out just looks a little silly at the end of the day. When I played WHFB I always found that frustrating, and the explanation that individual troops represent 5 or 10 times their number didn’t help (the point of a visual game like a miniatures game is that it looks like the battle it represents).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297718.page GMT
'Nuff said.

And any game that lets you abbreviate

"Assault Cannon"

into

"Ass Cannon" has my vote.[/quote]

"Ass Can" is even better, because it represents twice as many buttocks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297724.page GMT
I have actually played quite a few other SF games over the years. Kryomek, Stargrunt, Void, Battletech, as well as Warzone. All had their good points and bad points.

40k is quite frankly, unashamedly a beer and pretzels game. The players in my club that I get along with are over 18s, and we all enjoy a beer or six during games.
I don't recommend 40k beer pong, though ...

(every time you take a wound, take a sip. Gets bad with non Meq armies ...)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297759.page GMT 40k background, which isn't often cuz then I'll be reminded about how many skulls I get to look at, I think of this being the 40k future:

[IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b311/stonefox01/842947eb.jpg[/IMG]

Kids reminiscing about those silly space legends about evil people who had nothing better to do than kill other, not-so-evil people. But I think I'm in the minority since most people would say 40k is about war. Whooo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297763.page GMT
I have actually played quite a few other SF games over the years. Kryomek, Stargrunt, Void, Battletech, as well as Warzone. All had their good points and bad points.

40k is quite frankly, unashamedly a beer and pretzels game. The players in my club that I get along with are over 18s, and we all enjoy a beer or six during games.
I don't recommend 40k beer pong, though ...

(every time you take a wound, take a sip. Gets bad with non Meq armies ...)[/quote]


http://www.homeonthestrange.com/view.php?ID=261
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297769.page GMT
1) I like the rule

2) I like the players I meet

3) I am 26. Most people I know who play are older

Etc[/quote]

1. I assume you either never played before 3rd edition and don't play alternatives.

2. The majority of 40K players are nice, there are also a higher level of tools (of all ages). I have yet to meet TFG at any fantasy tournment I have been to or ran. I am guaranteed to get at least one and sometimes 2 TFG's at 40K events.

3. You are the exception, go to a fantasy vs a 40k tournement and count the number of kids. [/quote]

I too find your points perplexing.[/quote]
He's trying to justify opinions with anecdote, not realizing that it doesn't work that way. Just because that's the way his local environment is, he's extrapolating it to cover the whole world.

Anyway, I play 40K because I like it more, and starting up fantasy would mean adding to my already ridiculous collection of unpainted miniatures.

That image is my new desktop. I love the chalked Ork.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297771.page GMT 40k has chainsaw swords. ing chainsaw swords![/quote]

I've been saying this to all my friends for years! We are totally in agreement here!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297774.page GMT LotR player refuses to have anything to do with 40k or WFB players...[/quote]

That's because the typical LotR player only spends about 5 or so mins in the store when his mother leaves him there whilst she ducks into the drug-store on the way back to the car park.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297777.page GMT 40k:

1. I actually like the way the rules play. There is no needless overcomplication to achieve results but it isn't too simplistic to become boring. There is also a since of dynamics to the way units opperate that only Warmachine is on par with.

2. You can't beat the background. Anything you can think of, any theme, can somehow be translated into the fluff. It has the biggest sandbox for creative people to work with.

3. I have always been a Sci-Fi fan more than anything. I like my Lazers.

I hear the complaints all the time about 40k. But mostly it is general sweeping generalizations that can also be made at the games the complainers are playing. There is a competitive level of 40k where two good players will face each other of the the game is literally nail biting. It isn't a perfect game, but I like it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297780.page GMT I too find your points perplexing. For me the rules in 40k are superior. I love the aspect that I can do what I want when I want. [/quote]

I guess there really are people who will talk about the understated genius of Uwe Boll compared to the stodgy idiocy of Hitchcock or the pretentiousness of Kurosawa.

[quote=Darkness]As for the players, I dropped fantasy because of all the tools. Fantasy players, in my experiance(this may have just been regional) are those guys that have never kissed a girl and are devoid of amy social skills[/quote]

I think you live in Bizzarro world at this point

[quote=Darkness]As for the proportion of kids at tourneys, hell I was the youngest guy at the last 40k RTT at 24, and the fantasy one boasted a 13 year old. While that example may seem an oddity, how many kids were at Adepticon? [/quote]

How many kids were at the 20 or so Fantasy GT not run by GW? I have never run into one. I know both GW 40K GT I attended had their share of kids I always got stuck with them in the 1rst round and he fantasy side had no kids. I also remember one kid at a RTT fantasy tournment drug there by his dad who played but usually 4 or 5 kids at any given RTT for 40K.[/quote]

Your experience is not one that I have shared.

Most fantasy players I have run into are persnickety rules lawyers. They've either never heard the term "friendly game" or don't understand it.

Perhaps more children play 40k because it is fun, not the joy-sucking experience that fantasy always seems to be.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297815.page GMT
I kind of want to do an Ork/goblin army, but I don't see myself buying and painting like 120 models. At least in 40k I could put them in trukks or something, and have wild poses that push the limits of balance on a 25mm base. I mean, I have a 1000 point fantasy army of Chaos Mortals based and primed, and it is 40 models strong. My extremely infantry troop heavy Sisters army at 1000 points is just over 30. I don't think I hit 40 models until 2000 or so.

All that is a little daunting, especially since the individual model doesn't stand out quite so much as mentioned previously.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297827.page GMT
Although, according to a recent poll, LotR beats them both: [url]http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90516[/url]

[/quote]

Scary, but not surprising, given that GW refuses to abandon LotR, but instead continues to expand the LotR line.

What I can't figure out is where these LotR players are.

It's like the typical LotR player refuses to have anything to do with 40k or WFB players...[/quote]

I suspect it is because LotR and the older GW core games are very different memes. LotR is very "un GW-ish" for want of a better expression. The kind of person who likes the LotR aesthetic is probably put off by black trench-coated hippies and the kind of Spayc Marienz (hurr) mentality which tends to pervade GW stores, and anywhere much that is filled with the teenage "fanboi" crowd normally attracted to in-store 40k/WFB gaming I guess.

To put it this way, I have heard the LotR models described often as "weedy and feeble" by the 40k/WFB crowd. However, the typical LotR-fan could view the 40k/WFB models as "cartoony", "exaggerated", and "out of scale". While some people enjoy both aesthetic values, many only like one or the other. As the stores are dominated by the 40k/WFB-loving crowd (because they were there first), the LotR-loving crowd got used to enjoying their hobby elsewhere.

And picking up on the "refuses to abandon" issue. What financial sense would it make to abandon LotR when it clearly is so popular? None whatsoever is the answer. If the had been a case for withdwrawing the development resources from LotR then GW would have done it - as they did with Black Industries. The fact that they are happy enough to retain LotR means that it is clearly a very profitable income stream for them, and without it, they could not afford the overheads that all players benefit from (White Dwarf, Stores, Tournaments, etc., etc.) to the extent they exist now.

GW management have made many mistakes over the last decade or so. Retaining LotR is not one of them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297829.page GMT What financial sense would it make to abandon LotR when it clearly is so popular? None whatsoever is the answer. If the had been a case for withdwrawing the development resources from LotR then GW would have done it - as they did with Black Industries. The fact that they are happy enough to retain LotR means that it is clearly a very profitable income stream for them, and without it, they could not afford the overheads that all players benefit from (White Dwarf, Stores, Tournaments, etc., etc.) to the extent they exist now.

GW management have made many mistakes over the last decade or so. Retaining LotR is not one of them.[/quote]

Here is what I want to know. If it is so popular, where are all the people playing it? Is it actually popular? Or is GW saying that it is popular? My local store doesnt even carry LotR anymore. Ive NEVER seen anyone play, or even buy it, and from what it sounds like neither has anyone on these boards.

Perhaps if people can go out and find some LotR specific boards or something, some kinda proof these phantom players exist... Otherwise I imagine it turning into this...

**Guy sees kid purchasing a LotR pack of models**
"Holy Zombie Jesus!! They do exist!!"
**LotR player, realizing hes been found out, covers face with purchase and bolts out the door where he promptly fades out of sight, much like a chameleon**]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297876.page GMT
I don't normally do this.. but sigged. Greatest 40k quote ever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297939.page GMT LotR player only spends about 5 or so mins in the store when his mother leaves him there whilst she ducks into the drug-store on the way back to the car park.

BYE[/quote]
See, this sort of thing is what I'm talking about. We're holes.

From what I've heard, LotR outsells WHFB. I don't see GW dropping it anytime soon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297984.page GMT DA hizzzous)... Ahem.... Anyways...

It was mentioned on both shows, and now recently joining Dakka it is even more apparent that 40k is far and away the more popular game.

Im curious as to WHY?

I play fantasy, my friends play fantasy. They dabble in 40k a bit, but not near enough as WHFB. For the past several years Ive heard them go on about the rules in 40k being horrible. (there was even a running joke where one friend would turn to another and say 'Hey, quick game of 40k?' and then proceed to do Rock Paper Scissors) 4th Ed help a lot I hear, and 5th ed is coming out now, so hopefully it will be better.

Mechanics aside, why are people drawn to 40k over fantasy? At least to cause such a large discrepancy between the number of players. Is it the fluff? the models? the huge giant machine guns trying to compensate for something else?

Okay, bashing aside, Id like to hear why people play 40k and not Fantasy. What is your take and reason?[/quote]

Why do you play fantasy?
The same argument could be asked of you.

As for your other stuff, ther is always Necromunda or Mordhiem if you want a comparison.

It is about like asking if you want to take off someones head with an pointy stick,axe, or a chainsaw, OR just shoot them in the face with a plasma pistol.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/297987.page GMT LotR outsells WHFB. I don't see GW dropping it anytime soon.[/quote]

See, now that doesn't really surprise me. Despite covering nearly identical Fantasy ground (mostly because WFB is little more than a LotR univese rip-off, two steps removed), LotR is much better-known than WFB thanks to the films. Plus, LotR starters are available at bookstores and such. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298163.page GMT Why do you play fantasy?
The same argument could be asked of you.
As for your other stuff, ther is always Necromunda or Mordhiem if you want a comparison.
[/quote]

No, thats fair enough. My main reason wasnt really WHY people play 40k, but why so MANY MORE people play 40k. I play Fantasy because, like many others here who play one game or another, thats what my friends play. I resisted for over a year, cursing Warhammer as being too expensive and daunting on an epic scale. Then a friend Gave me, LITERALLY GAVE ME, like 1500 points of Orcs and Goblins. So I was in, and have since expanded that army quite a bit.

When I would go to my local gaming store (here in inner city Minneapolis) watching other players I saw a lot of Fantasy there too. Also, yes some kids. One kid was fielding like 60 skinks. Knowing now what I do about Skinks Id slap the out of him. But while there was always a 40k presence, it was never to the point of being far outnumbering the fantasy players, especially at the ratio on a global scale. So when I learned that 40k was vastly more popular it kinda hit me like a rock. I had no idea. All of my friends had given up on 40k because of the flaws with the rules. I simply never got into it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298176.page GMT
Zelda is fantasy. Zelda is insanely popular. So I dont think its quite as simple as Sci Fi vs Fantasy. And Sci Fi isnt quite as new as some would think. Starship Troopers, 2001, Brave New World, all very old books. Also there is just as much bad Sci Fi out there as there is bad Fantasy. Possibly more. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298182.page GMT Both games have the same pros and cons. It can be said that there is alot of luck in both games, also it can be said there is little. In my experience even more ridiculous events can occur in Fantasy(Dragon makes 1/4th of army run). I see alot of tragedies unfold in Fantasy and very few in 40K. The bottom line is there isn't much variance in a D6 system.

People just accentuate certain aspects of the different games depending on their personal tastes. Different strokes for different folks.

I have noticed alot of 40K players seem indifferent to Fantasy while I've heard many Fantasy players derail 40K. Kind of hateful me thinks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298185.page GMT It is about like asking if you want to take off someones head with an pointy stick,axe, or a chainsaw, OR just shoot them in the face with a plasma pistol.[/quote]

Plasma pistol? Surely that'd mean getting your own arm blown off at the same time... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298211.page GMT ???

Well, they're older than [b]I[/b] am. That doesn't make them very old by [b]book[/b] standards. Heck, they're not even very old by [b]science fiction[/b] standards. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298221.page GMT ???

Well, they're older than [b]I[/b] am. That doesn't make them very old by [b]book[/b] standards. Heck, they're not even very old by [b]science fiction[/b] standards. [/quote]

Well, thats my point. Sci Fi has been around for a very long time. These books were from like the 60s or something... Jules Verne was writing at the end of the 19th Century... Some people were saying "Fantasy" was tired and over done. "Sci Fi" has as well.... If you wanna break it down to the MOST generic of those terms... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298268.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298334.page GMT
So by comparison sci-fi is really REALLY younger than fantasy. (oh and you quoted wikipedia, which doesn't count cause its wikipedia)

As for wondering about LOTR players on the site, it may have to do with the utter lack of LOTR support and forums on this site? If it was set up Im sure we would get posts.

As for the outselling of LOTR, I chalk it down to the price, for 35 dollars in canada I get 20 uruk hai, for 35 dallors that gets me either 5 space marines without any upgrades or 6 orcs for fantasy. Gee, I can put an actuallly decent army together for under 100 dollars, thats like what? A 500 point army of 40k? (speaking in canadian monies here) and a 250 pt army of WH?

Also I find the rules are much easier to play against and you don't have the going first problem that you get in 40k, seeing as calling a heroic action lets you go first in that phase regardless of who has priority for that turn.

Not too mention that heros, monsters, and hordes actually behave like they are supposed to it simply rocks. The only thing I have against it is the time it takes to play it at larger pt values and lack modelling options for the troops, most comeimgn preasselbe and all you have to do is slot them in and add the shield.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298516.page GMT
Pariah Press, we can probably date science fiction a bit earlier than that. Voltaire wrote "Micromegas" in the 1700s.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298522.page GMT
Anyway, the point that Fantasy is "tired and overdone," as a poster stated above, doesn't really hold up, IMO. I'm not a huge Fantasy fan, but I've read a decent selection, and the genre seems perfectly vital to me. From Howard's "Conan," to LotR, to Elric, to Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire," there are some completely different types of Fantasy story, from different generations. Obviously Sturgeon's Law ("90% of everything is crap") applies to Fantasy as it does to just about [b]anything[/b] (except crap itself, of course, which is 100% crap).

Ultimately, I think that the 40K setting is simply more original and the Warhammer World setting. Warhammer is pretty much Tolkien, with a dash of Moorcock, and some distinctive visual elements. 40K draws from a much wider array of influences, allowing it to take on a more unique character, in my opinion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298672.page GMT
How come then almost all of the races or gods are based off of the elements from many different religions, myths, and legends? In WH itself almost all of the stuff in it comes from either history itself, (Holy Roman Empire, Medieval Britain/France, Aztecs, Egyptians, etc) or different western european myth? (I find that quite a bit of the dwarf, and chaos northmen are based on Norse mythology. Not too mention the inclusion of dark elves and elves.) What im sayying really is almost everything that WH is based upon existed up to a 1000+ years ago. (and personally I think some of the chaos gods aspect is taken from norse gods. They sure sound like a loki to me.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298720.page GMT 40K (though I still paint up Empire figs every now and then). Mostly it has to do with the background. WFB is too close to "our world" for my taste and some of the things they've come up with lately (Ogre gut magic? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard) are just plain silly and dumb. Additionally, because the WFB world is so established, it's hard to come up with a new personal idea whereas in 40K, if you want to come up with a whole new army based on a specific planet you made up, you can. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/298811.page GMT
"Starship Troopers" was published 1959. (Dwight Eisenhower was still president)

"2001" was published in 1968. (Three years before I was born and the year when racial segregation laws in the US were formally made illegal in the whole country by a Supreme Court decision)

So yeah, sci-fi has been around for quite a while.

While 40K has sci-fi elements it's really more of a fantasy setting with magic (sometimes hand waved as psionics) and physics that exist completely serve the plot and setting. We aren't really supposed to believe that 40K can ever be the future of mankind even though we are supposed to PRETEND that it could be. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299315.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299315.page GMT
That's the big nail on the head for me. It's gotten to the point with me that I wish Tolkien was never born. How long am I going to have to put up with dwarves and elves in absolutely every geek game under the sun?

Also Dicemonkey, since you've left the group has gone the other way. Most of the tools are fantasy now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299501.page GMT
That's the big nail on the head for me. It's gotten to the point with me that I wish Tolkien was never born. How long am I going to have to put up with dwarves and elves in absolutely every geek game under the sun?

Also Dicemonkey, since you've left the group has gone the other way. Most of the tools are fantasy now. [/quote]

But...you could say the same thing for the "dystopic universe #2123489 with a hopeless future" background. I'm not into Star Trek, but did watch a good number of the old and newer series, and it's funny to see how the series' popularity tanked when the focus changed from a bright future full of exploration to a fear of technology. See also the presence of Babylon 5, Battlestar, and other "yeah, space and the universe isn't what it's cracked up to be" series.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299518.page GMT
Sorry for OT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299548.page GMT That's the big nail on the head for me. It's gotten to the point with me that I wish Tolkien was never born. How long am I going to have to put up with dwarves and elves in absolutely every geek game under the sun?
[/quote]

Fact is, without Tolkien you would never have gotten Warhammer, and then 40k. DnD and the like may never have come around... Maybe someone else would have written it, it didnt HAVE to be Tolkien perhaps... But then your post would simply read "I wish <insert last name here> was never born. Tolkien's popularity gave the geeks of the 70s the inspiration to just run with their imaginations. And then one product inspired another product and so on and so forth...


Oh, and for geek games without Elves or Dwarves? Star Wars. Or Exalted. Exalted is a huge high Fantasy setting with no elves or dwarves. System is a little odd, but the setting is pretty awesome. You are the child of a Sun God, and you have the power to back it up. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/299626.page GMT 40k universe is just so massive; large enough to have history, heroes, and villains but also room for new things and your own imagination. Also as HBMC said you can just kinda toss all the combat together and make it possible in a sci-fi world. Guns, tanks, sword fights everything! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309612.page GMT That's the big nail on the head for me. It's gotten to the point with me that I wish Tolkien was never born. How long am I going to have to put up with dwarves and elves in absolutely every geek game under the sun?
[/quote]

If Tolkein hadn't written it, people would've based their fantasy on The Worm Ouroboros or even *gasp* Norse mythology, just like Tolkein. You'd STILL have Elves and Dwarves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309812.page GMT
- Salvage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309821.page GMT
As far as him being the SOURCE of any fantasy races... ever heard of mythology? Dwarves (Dvergar/Svartalfr; Norse Myth), Elves (Alfr; Norse Myth), Dragons (Various) & etc ad nauseam.

Some people also give him credit for establishing the "Behavior" of Dwarves or Elves and their interracial bickering. These people need to read mythology, specifically things like the Volsung Saga, Norna-Gest, and the Nibelungenlied.

If any one single person deserves credit for [b]preserving[/b] ancient norse mythology which lead to the basis of modern "fantasy" settings it would be a feller named Snorri Sturluson.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/309919.page GMT
Fighting with a sword = cool

Fighting with an electrically charged sword and gun = [i]way [/i]cooler]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/313761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/313761.page GMT LotR from Gygax who stole stuff
from Blizzard Entertainment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/313983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/313983.page GMT
We all know the Wachowski Brother/Sisters made up Elves....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/314010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/314010.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/314012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212154/314012.page GMT