http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 40K, that will finally become clear to us, the poor huddled masses, when the new edition comes out. Many have compared this Plan to a rudderless ship, or to a car without a steering-wheel or brakes and with the doors welded shut, or to the Hindenburg, or to Hillary Clinton's campaign, but I don't really think that its right, as General Buck Turgidson said, to make any judgement until all the facts are in.

I believe that the GW suits have made an error in insisting on backwards compatibility with the previous codices. I also believe that Jervis had little or no control over that decision.

Did Jervis already have 5th edition in mind when he wrote the Dark Angel Codex? Did Gav have 5th in mind when he wrote the CSM Codex? I'm uncertain.

It seems pretty clear to me, though, reading between the lines, that the Ork Codex and then Daemon Codex were designed with 5th edition in mind, moreso than with 4th in mind. Let's start with the Ork Codex as the first Codex designed for 5th edition (but feel free to argue with my choice in your responses).

I think that the true measure of whether Jervis really has a Master Plan, or whether he's just throwing darts at a cork-board with a bunch of design criteria posted on it, will be shown in how the Ork-Daemon-Space Marine armies work together (or rather, against each other), and, of course, how subsequent codices work when they're introduced. The full effects of Jervis's changes in 5th edition will not be felt for years, but we can probably get a good look at what's in store for the game in general by examining matchups between the most recent codices mentioned above. Are those matchups varied and interesting and fun? Those are the criteria by which Jervis's success, or lack thereof, should be judged, in my opinion.

Soon, we'll have an answer, and I'll know whether I should leave "Jervis Saves" in my signature. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301343.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301384.page GMT
The core game system hasn't changed. Some of the detail changes (vehicle movement speeds, changes to cover and LoS rules) may affect the balance of power slightly, depending on the exact matchups played.

If I am not mistaken, the Tau Empire codex, which is now 2 years old, will be the oldest unreissued 4th edition codex for another 2 years or more. The older 3rd edition codexes have either been upgraded to 4.9 (Eldar) or are in the pipeline.

Do you think the rule changes are significantly good or bad for Tau? How would you change things for the 5th edition Tau codex?

More generally, allowing 4-5 years for an edition life cycle, the slow pace of codex releases means some armies don't get renewed within the lifetime of an edition. Forexample, DE and IG. Players would get seriously annoyed if their army got made unworkable for 2-3 years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301429.page GMT
As far as whether the rule change will be "good" or "bad" for the Tau... I don't know. I haven't really given it much thought. I suspect that they're going to really sweat it against dedicated assault armies who can now "run," but we'll see. Ultimately I don't really [b]care[/b] about how the current Tau Empire Codex works in 5th, for the purposes of this discussion. I don't think it's relevant. It'll be okay, but it isn't part of Jervis's Master Plan (assuming there [b]is[/b] one). It seems to work pretty well in the context of 4th edition, but things will, of course, change with the new edition. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301493.page GMT Dev team is just waiting for the next big hit, some army that does really well for them. Why do you think Marines were raced to the front of the line when 5th Ed was announced?

Sadly, as long as they maintain their rigid devotion to releasing a 'Dex and then ignoring any lasting problems it has for the next 4-10 years (lesser if your power armour, more if your Dark Eldar/Orks), then they won't improve.

If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301507.page GMT
Heh, exalt.

If they were really worried about making everything fit, we'd have a Ravening Hordes style book to cover everything that came before the Ork 'Dex (if that is the true "first" 5th ed. 'dex). But we won't. The old codecies will still be there, unbalanced rules and all. I doubt we'll ever see a complete reboot of 40k (which it desperately needs) until Wizkids or Hasbro buys the company and implements pre-painted collectible figures.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301556.page GMT
I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301576.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301611.page GMT All the special wargear and vehicle upgrades are pretty much useless. But the stuff that works - lords, wyches,incubi, warriors, raiders, ravagers, are awesome, and a very competitive army can be made out of them. That's why most Dark Eldar armies tend to be very samey.

The biggest problem with the dark eldar are the models though. I like the warriors, but it's probably a 3 to 1 split on liking them vs hating them. Wyches ar ok, but most players would like to see plastic, and hopefully new sculpts. Most of the rest of the army is the same. Some of the models are probably the worst in GW's whole range, I'm looking at you Mandrakes and Grotesques!

And yes I do play them. I personally am waiting for a new codex to have some of the useless stuff reworked / rebalanced. Although I'm guessing Ravagers and Dark Lances will be going up in price or getting the 1 DL / 10 warriors "improvement". I'd really like to have a bunch of the mysterious stuff FAQ's more than anything else.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301614.page GMT
I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?

BYE[/quote]

According to the metagame info available, there aren't very many DE players around (approx 3% of all armies at GTs) but they are probably happy with their dex as they rank very highly, showing it is still a competitive build. (I believe DE players are very good players.)

I'm sure a new book and some new models would be much appreciated even so. My point is that GW do not prioritise DE over Spase Marienz because of the market segments.

This is somewhat OT.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301642.page GMT
So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301645.page GMT Dev team is just waiting for the next big hit, some army that does really well for them. Why do you think Marines were raced to the front of the line when 5th Ed was announced?

Sadly, as long as they maintain their rigid devotion to releasing a 'Dex and then ignoring any lasting problems it has for the next 4-10 years (lesser if your power armour, more if your Dark Eldar/Orks), then they won't improve.

If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.[/quote]

HBMC you're asking for bright purple in a black & white world.

There won't be a next big hit without a revamp of Necrons or Dark Eldar.

Marines? Who cares. Five colors = five armies? That's gay.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301679.page GMT
I've heard a lot of people complain about that, but never really from any Dark Eldar players. Are Dark Eldar players looking forward to a new Codex, given the changes that the recent ones have seen, or dreading it?[/quote]

Yes it's 10 years old.

I have a ton of DE stuff.

I'm a DE player, I don't mind the old Codex (it has a few 'I win' configurations that most current armies cannot beat easily if at all) but I would like a new Codex.

Sadly, playtesting a new DE codex seems far from GW's mind.

"Just release it" seems to be the watch word.

Kind of like the Dark Elves, who are shaping up into a whole new definition of 'suck'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301681.page GMT
So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?[/quote]

I'd rather keep the one I have, but given how close to being retired out old JJ is I'm not sure the DE will avoid that fate...I'd rather see them updated than anything else, but if the Jervis format hits the DE they'll be really boring.

The only codex I can see gaining anything from the Jervis format are the Necrons.

They're already so boring and optionless that even a crappy sidegrade can't help but change them.

Now all that said, what do I expect?

A crap DE Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

A crap Necron Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

Everyone else at the studio, bunch of idiots. Alot of people think PK makes uber codices, I disagree.

He makes codices you can play alot of different armies with.

Compare that to Jervis (and everyone else, honestly) and you have a decent book compared to utterly worthless trash.

Sadly, GW needs to figure out that players don't like having a crap army running in the same space as a powerful one and get told 'these are the same, you will win, trust us'.

Of course, they haven't figured that out yet so I doubt they will anytime soon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301688.page GMT
So are you happy with what you have, or do you want a Jervised Edition of your Codex?

BYE[/quote]

I haven't played them in years, so it's not my codex anymore, and I can't really comment from that point of view. Some of the worst beatdowns I've ever recieved have been at the hands of DE however. The models are in need of work more than the book, but at GW, you can't have one without the other. Saying that, the reason I got into this hobby at all was the DE warrior models, but looking at them now, they've aged like an Italian housewife. What woud be nice for DE would be if all the units were actually useful to a degree, and some weren't near 'I win' buttons. I can dream...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/301787.page GMT
QFT. There have been a bunch of world-wide, supposedly story-line breaking campaigns for each system. And at the end of each, nothing much happened. Still cringe thinking of the end of the Storm of Chaos campaign. Gav still needs a kick in the jumblies for that travesty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302685.page GMT GW has a master plan then I'd like to hear it. But when I see the differences between army books like O&G and empire versus vampires and demons I don't think there is a plan.

Wouldn't it be cool if GW just said "This is our plan for 40k. [Says plan]. What do you think?" Then we could all complain about something substantial!

/daydream

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302700.page GMT GW can't advance any major plot lines because it would lead to some kind of resolution. This would reduce the amount of conflict going on in the galaxy by eliminating one faction or boosting another into a position of superiority.

That's why the Eye of Terror campaign ended with Chaos not breaking out, but not being decisively defeated either.

It's why the Tau ended the Medusa campaign by deciding not to research warp travel. If the Tau had warp travel they would break out of their very small area of the galaxy and become a major threat.

Notice also that at the end of Medusa, the Necrons had been very badly spanked. Rather than being a major setback, this was written off as just a local embarrassment that ended the career of the local head Necron but did no harm to their strategic situation.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302787.page GMT LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.

He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history. As soon as the time comes that he's no longer effective, he is going to be downsized.

" Heck, I used to play 40K. It was a fun game back then, I wonder what happend to it....."

When you put Jervis Johnson and Master Plan in the same paragraph, I think thats what lost it fore you. This guy is a representative, period. He CAN'T make any decision without licking a few more boots. The Corperation Suit types will and always continue to call the shots based on a business prespective. They continue to lose money because they don't know thier market. As for the whole " Oh how I wish a fish was here" stuff.... you won't have to worry much longer.

If 5th Edition doesn't get people playing, then we won't have to worry about what Jervis thinks. They will Can him almsot as fast as they did to everyone else.
It will probibly go along the lines of " Well, gang. After 30 something odd years, I've decided to call it quits and take a nice vacation..." Where as in the background, they go... " Where are we going to get our bonus's from this month? Why lets shut a few of these so called" Floundering " stores and sacrifice someone." All eyeing Jervis.

-Best thing I can think of for these tools to recoupe is to have someone else entirely make a hostile takeover, buy out one of the major shareholders and privatize the company. After that, they can gop ahead and start with the Tshirts, the candybars, and the film rights for the game. A TV weekly series comes a few moths later, and we get a few High roller well know named celebrities to come out and say " heck yeah, I play 40K. I have a 300 pt army of ..... too, for fantasy."
Maybe we get Beef's girl, Amy, to do a hit song or two about the game, and there you go. back on top with a vengence.

The've already started with the Fastasy Flight thing, next they can go along the lines of charging metal prices for plastic... Oh, wait.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302823.page GMT
Well thats my view sorted, now to find something to do]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302898.page GMT Wow, hate much?

Actually, I think Jervis is riding high ATM due to Apocalypse. You may not like him, 40k, or Apoc, but Apoc made a huge impact on GW's bottom line, so he's not going to be canned anytime soon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302901.page GMT
Dark Angels (V ed.)
Blood Angels (V ed.)
Eldar (in-between IV and V)
Orks (V ed.)
Chaos Marines (V ed.)
Chaos Daemons (V ed.)
Tyranids (in-between IV and V)
Tau (IV ed.)
new Spaced Marines (V ed.)

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302986.page GMT LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.[/quote]
This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I can tell.

[quote]He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history. As soon as the time comes that he's no longer effective, he is going to be downsized.[/quote]
This is bull, IMO. 2004's Epic Armageddon is hardly "ancient history."

[quote]When you put Jervis Johnson and Master Plan in the same paragraph, I think thats what lost it fore you. This guy is a representative, period. He CAN'T make any decision without licking a few more boots. The Corperation Suit types will and always continue to call the shots based on a business prespective. They continue to lose money because they don't know thier market. As for the whole " Oh how I wish a fish was here" stuff.... you won't have to worry much longer. [/quote]
It's possible you're right about this. It's hard to know, exactly, what Jervis's job is these days, and how much latitude he has in that job. I'm sorta assuming he's something like the lead designer for 40K, but I don't really know.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/302989.page GMT GW round the time of 4th's release whenever JJ's name and 5th are mentioned in the same sentence?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303077.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303077.page GMT FB and 40K, and all the rest of the Old Guard (besides Jervis) have left. I guess if Jervis [b]does[/b] leave, it's possible that some bright new star of game design could spring up in his place. :\]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303234.page GMT JJ by himself.

We all agree that GW exists to sell models, not rules.

Why does anyone expect the design studio to get its collective act together?

If there is a new hotshot designer, he is going to need kintama of steel to completely rewrite the system for 6th edition.

I don't know it even needs it.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303346.page GMT
And while GW does exist to sell minatures if they had rules and codexes people liked, and were happy using continuously then surely model sales would go up, people wanting to buy models to game with. Not saying people don't so that already, but maybe to a greater extent instead]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303537.page GMT
GW probably sell a lot more stuff to rookies than veteran players.

I know a lot of Dakkites have several armies and are always building more. Against that, there are people like me who have enough of one army to be going on with, and will only occasionally buy more stuff.

But there is a limitless supply of 13 year old boys to start into 40K, and they have to buy tons of stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303756.page GMT JJ because of his Standard Bearer article, but in truth, I think he is doing a good thing for 40K. I just happened to not like his attitude in that article, but I agree with his direction.

It's obvious that he is trying to bring a balance to the Codices. I don't necessarily believe in reducing options, but I'm glad that balance is important this time around. When Gav Thorpe did things, it was very clear that fun creative rules >>> balanced Codex. At least JJ is trying. That, and I have to give him props for bringing the rules and the fluff more in line with each other. Those losing their 6 man las/plas may lament (and I will be playing the world's smallest violin for them), but I'm glad to see full 10 man squads back in the game.

And though we give JJ crap about that other article where he mentioned his son, I know that the Rulebook and Codices [u]should[/u] have the pictures of the weapons printed. Yeah, we are all veterans now, but would we know what a Plasmagun or a Meltagun looked like if there wasn't a picture of these in the Rogue Trader hardback? Hell, I started in my teens (I presume the majority of us did), but we complain endlessly about how GW caters to teenagers and not veteran adults. That's a bit hypocritical, I think. Sure, there may be a high turnover amongst the younger crowd, but as evident by the amount of traffic garnered here and elsewhere, [u]some[/u] of the teens will become veterans (all grizzled and jaded and bitter like the rest of us), so I'm figuring that this is all part of GW's long term plan of survival.

JJ's problem is that he has to fix the Codex Creep and the Broken Units, rebalance both the Rules and the Armies, reconcile the Fluff with the Rules, maintain a relative Low Learning Curve for beginners, appease the Veterans, entice New Players, while having the Toe the Party Line of "There is nothing wrong and we are not admitting that we made mistakes" as a Spokesperson while actually fixing mistakes as a Designer.

In truth, I like JJ. I just wish he just didn't say what he did in the last Standard Bearer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303798.page GMT GW does exist to sell minatures if they had rules and codexes people liked, and were happy using continuously then surely model sales would go up, people wanting to buy models to game with. Not saying people don't so that already, but maybe to a greater extent instead[/quote]

I disagree, and I think GW does, too.

Every game system with these happy rules / lists ends up being a static system - players reach their balance points, buy their stuff, and play with the same stuff. The manufacturer only sells one batch of rules, and one batch of minis. Incremental sales are <20% tied to the occasional newbie joining an established group. But that is offset by the slow drain as people get tired of the same old stuff, until the system dies. Basically, you get slightly higher initial sales, but no follow-on sales.

GW, OTOH, follows good B-school practice of churning the customer base as often as they can stand it. GW deliberatey utilizes the pendulum effect to drive new sales. Basically, GW just needs to get players "pot committed", and then they're hooked. Sure, they eventually drive the occasional Vet out, but they get a lot more income while he's in the game, than if they could magically produce a "perfect" system.

If you don't like that, you'd better get out of the hobby ASAP, because GW is perfecting their churn in WFB and 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/303823.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304084.page GMT
GW is unique in the figure gaming world for having built up a huge international company.

They only have two basic products so they have to keep refreshing them to make players buy new stuff.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304226.page GMT Wow, hate much?

Actually, I think Jervis is riding high ATM due to Apocalypse. You may not like him, 40k, or Apoc, but Apoc made a huge impact on GW's bottom line, so he's not going to be canned anytime soon.[/quote]

At 172.50, Apocalypse has done absolutly craptacular for the game. He's riding a wave of confusion if anything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304332.page GMT GW, OTOH, follows good B-school practice of churning the customer base as often as they can stand it. GW deliberatey utilizes the pendulum effect to drive new sales[/quote]

Shame they don't follow the good B-school practice of producing a quality product and letting their customers do the selling for them...

Instead they follow good B-s**t practice of putting form before substance and selling their customers a pup...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304342.page GMT LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.[/quote]
This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I can tell.

[quote]He's a nice guy, a heck of a good old chap, drinks out with the boys and all that, but can't stablize a miniatures game, which in turn drives away the support, fan base, and the interest in a floundering product. The retreaded old argument of he's a great game designer and all that have well worn thin. He's held onto because of past success. And that past success in this type of a market is ancient history. As soon as the time comes that he's no longer effective, he is going to be downsized.[/quote]
This is bull, IMO. 2004's Epic Armageddon is hardly "ancient history."

[quote]When you put Jervis Johnson and Master Plan in the same paragraph, I think thats what lost it fore you. This guy is a representative, period. He CAN'T make any decision without licking a few more boots. The Corperation Suit types will and always continue to call the shots based on a business prespective. They continue to lose money because they don't know thier market. As for the whole " Oh how I wish a fish was here" stuff.... you won't have to worry much longer. [/quote]
It's possible you're right about this. It's hard to know, exactly, what Jervis's job is these days, and how much latitude he has in that job. I'm sorta assuming he's something like the lead designer for 40K, but I don't really know.[/quote]

Yadda yadda yadda.... I stand by my bitter Grot loving statements!!!

Its a loss. Jervis takes claim for the grand "Vision, or lack there of", and continues to postulate to the mass of gamers out there who for some unknown reason still believe anything he says. Standard Bearer is probibly the worst idea to have for him. He was better as the "nice guy", letting Andy do the talking.

How it has to do with the conversation is that his "Vision"= Game. People either WANT TO play it, or DON'T WANT TO play it. based on how the rules are. If 5th's rules suck, then 172.50 goes to 170.00 to 165.50... until redline, and then we see old Jervis come out with a final "Standard Bearer" with," Well, I've decided to take a little vacation, I 'll be gone awile, maybe I'll see you over in Specialist games, which looks like I can do some good..."

2004 is Ancient history in the buisness world. Gaming world, its almost as old. War Machine came out when again? D and D is how old??? and yet, we have 5th edition 40K. As well as that, How long has Armageddon been out again, and how many people play it regularly, again?

As for the last bit, I'm right. It doesn't take a genius to tell me that they need to make money. They want it bad, and they are trying anything short of bashing people over the head to get at thier wallets. Unfortunatly, the suits arn't going to give up the powerbase and let people who know games make the serious decisions.

As a light silver lining, though... 5th edition stands to do better then expected, if they give people a chance to have a little fun now and then and not bog down the game with cheese and biscut mentality and give people a little credit to have a little fun, instead of the same old tired wacked out rules arguments. So far from what I've seen, the least we can do is to try the new rules again, and if they suck, then we always have the old stuff that we know was screwed and can work with, aside from getting screwed by a whole new system. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304345.page GMT
[b]That[/b] doesn't...

Actually, I think I pretty much agree with all of that.

Plus, it looks like Alessio wrote the 5th edition rules, for the most part, so any claims of Jervis's Master Plan are pretty much irrelevant anyway. It appears that my dream of a Jervis-designed 40K will have to be shelved. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304702.page GMT
I don't care who wrote it as long as it's good (or at least, less bad than previous editions. The buzz I'm getting from Yak is that is is 'written' a lot better.)

It would be most amusing if Alessio wrote it since he is Italian.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304707.page GMT
If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.
[/quote]

So true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304729.page GMT
If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.
[/quote]

So true.[/quote]

Nah, I think he means that there would be far fewer 40k threads. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304737.page GMT And though we give JJ crap about that other article where he mentioned his son, I know that the Rulebook and Codices [u]should[/u] have the pictures of the weapons printed. Yeah, we are all veterans now, but would we know what a Plasmagun or a Meltagun looked like if there wasn't a picture of these in the Rogue Trader hardback? Hell, I started in my teens (I presume the majority of us did), but we complain endlessly about how GW caters to teenagers and not veteran adults. That's a bit hypocritical, I think. Sure, there may be a high turnover amongst the younger crowd, but as evident by the amount of traffic garnered here and elsewhere, [u]some[/u] of the teens will become veterans (all grizzled and jaded and bitter like the rest of us), so I'm figuring that this is all part of GW's long term plan of survival.[/quote]

You have made some very valid points here. I think that people gnashed and wailed the same way when 3rd came out - "waddya mean I can't fire all of my tanks guns?!?", and people are reacting to fears about how their favorite army, or tactic is changing, and they may not like said changes that are specific to them. I can understand these concerns, but I don't think that the big picture is being considered here.

I am pretty excited by the new codicies. I think that the changes in 5th will make for some more interesting, and less cookie cutter games, which is ironic considering how much people are complaining about the lack of choices. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304756.page GMT
If they had a more flexible approach, listened to their fanbase - the people they're trying to make money off - then maybe 40K Codex threads here would be like Fantasy threads are here - full of optimism and hope rather than full of me.
[/quote]

So true.[/quote]

Nah, I think he means that there would be far fewer 40k threads. [/quote]

LOL]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304757.page GMT As for the last bit, I'm right. It doesn't take a genius to tell me that they need to make money. They want it bad, and they are trying anything short of bashing people over the head to get at thier wallets. Unfortunatly, the suits arn't going to give up the powerbase and let people who know games make the serious decisions. [/quote]

This is the part that really kills me. Most industries put a ton of resources and effort into finding out what their customers want. GW can get this for free, and for a long time put effort into avoiding this info! Mountains of consumer behavior information exists online these days for this game. Privateer Press seems to embrace this somewhat through their excellent forum. GW is starting to get the idea I think. That is one thing that I see coming from Standard Bearer that is positive... they are at least acknowledge that their fan base has opinions now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304764.page GMT GW can get this for free, and for a long time put effort into avoiding this info! [/quote]
Except there is a big difference between data and information. GW got a lot of useless data when they ran their forums, so they shelved it. There is a large segment of the GW fanbase which takes perverse pleasure in twisting GWs information-gathering efforts into futility.

Heck, look at YMDC over here? How conclusive are most of the rules polls? We went how many pages trying to explain that a Shoota Boyz Nob can be armed with PK? Or that ID trumps FNP, even on models with EW? And those are *easy* issues.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/304813.page GMT
If GW run a forum then it will be full of people complaining about GW!

If an independent forum like this one was monitored regularly by the people in games development, they would see which issues were being raised by gamers. This should form part of their 'fix list' for rules/codices to be sorted out in future FAQ's or rules editions.

Or does this contradict JJ's idea for telling everyone how to play the game based on what he thinks is 'cinematic' rather than getting a good game together and letting the drama unfold naturally.


P.S. - I don't think he's wrong in principle, one of the finest moments in gaming I ever had was when I was playing BFG and finally made a reserve roll on the final turn of the game. My Retributor battleship came into play in just the right position to smash my opponents chaos fleet apart with a broadside and relieve the planetary blockade - I could hear the John Williams score in my head as it happened!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305003.page GMT LOL,


Jervo the Clown has done this to the company. From Febuary 21 the share price was 209.00, until today- the share price is 172.50.


Where I come from, thats called a loss.
At this rate of growth, (Or lack there of), They will probibly tank out in the next six months, by the share price going tits up around 25-50.00 on the downslide.[/quote]

This is horrible, simply horrible.

Just in terms of terminology, a falling share price isn’t called a ‘loss’, that term relates to accounting profit. Nor is a share price ever referred to in terms of growth, growth is used to describe sales, profits and a range

If a company is performing below expectation, as GW is, then you look to the CEO and the senior executives. You don’t look at lead designer in the rules section of a miniatures company. And it’s worth noting Kirby has been reportedly under significant pressure, and has stepped down as chairman of the board, and the head of European operations was moved on.

And you don’t make speculations on bankruptcy without looking at long term cashflow projections. Attempting otherwise is just making an ass of yourself.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305079.page GMT
Shares down to 172.00 and counting...


The books are there to see for yourself, its a loss. Its not speculation, its there over at GW in digits for you to see if you want to go look. DOWN DOWN DOWN they go, they are going down better then... lets just say they do the job.


You are welcome to point and click your way over there and tell me how much of a great buy they are, but then, they are a bargin if you want to snack on them before the new game comes out.
We can buy up the shares in a week or two when they go down to 150
Thanks for the tip.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305721.page GMT to buy into a company? So it's not exactly sales, but a
reflection of WHAT PEOPLE THINK about sales.

I'm no business major, but that's been my layman's
understanding of publicly traded companies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305723.page GMT
Shares down to 172.00 and counting...


The books are there to see for yourself, its a loss. Its not speculation, its there over at GW in digits for you to see if you want to go look. DOWN DOWN DOWN they go, they are going down better then... lets just say they do the job.


You are welcome to point and click your way over there and tell me how much of a great buy they are, but then, they are a bargin if you want to snack on them before the new game comes out.
We can buy up the shares in a week or two when they go down to 150
Thanks for the tip.

[/quote]

Don’t assume I’m saying people should buy GW, or making any comment on GW’s share price at all. That’s a lazy, blatant strawman you’ve created there, and pretty much as vacuous as internet posting gets.

Your reply has little or nothing to do with my criticism of your attempt at financial analysis. Let’s try again, please rebut the following points;

When a company is performing below expectation, as GW is, then you look to the CEO and the senior executives. You don’t look at lead designer in the rules section of a miniatures company. Any effort at rebuttal here should attempt to establish why Jervis is more responsible for GW’s position than, say, Tom Kirby.

You don’t make speculations on bankruptcy without looking at long term cashflow projections. Your rebuttal here should demonstrate the extent of your review of GW’s long term cashflow, and explain why such detail wasn’t in your earlier posts. Or possibly you could attempt an argument as to how your apparent research, a look at the share price at two distinct points, is sufficient evidence to predict business collapse within six months.

Best of luck with each point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305829.page GMT to buy into a company? So it's not exactly sales, but a
reflection of WHAT PEOPLE THINK about sales.

I'm no business major, but that's been my layman's
understanding of publicly traded companies.[/quote]

Share price is indicative of many, many things. It is affected, across the industry, by macroeconomic factors such as the
A share price is an excellent tool, but it has to be used well. It is ultimately an indicator of risk and the expected dividend stream, which is related to cashflow, which is loosely related to sales. But then there’s a lot of other factors that affect share price; real interest rate, inflation, consumer, rumours and speculation, investor expectations and other miscellaneous factors.

Basically, using share price as a proxy for sales data is a long bow to draw. Ultimately if you want an indicator of sales you should look at the publicly available sales data.

My problem with Grot 6’s analysis is that he used share price and nothing else. He took two share prices, noticed it had gone down, assumed it was the fault of a line manager and declared GW would be out of business in 6 months. He’d be laughed out of a highschool economics class for something that poor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/305835.page GMT A crap DE Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

A crap Necron Codex, unless Phil Kelly does it.

Everyone else at the studio, bunch of idiots. Alot of people think PK makes uber codices, I disagree.

[/quote]

Wow.... I just had one of those bizarre moments where you actually agree with Stelek. It would probably happen more often if he didn't revert to Stelek Speak so often.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/306198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/306198.page GMT GW run a forum then it will be full of people complaining about GW!

If an independent forum like this one was monitored regularly by the people in games development, they would see which issues were being raised by gamers.

Or does this contradict JJ's idea for telling everyone how to play the game based on what he thinks is 'cinematic' rather than getting a good game together and letting the drama unfold naturally.[/quote]
Well, that's what happened the last time GW ran a forum, so I can't expect any change if they restart one.

I suspect that there are a number of GW Devs who monitor Dakka and other forums, but prefer to do so anonymously.

I'm not at all sure Jervis is contradictory. He wants a more cinematic experience, and intends that the rules work hand in hand, as in your BFG example. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307012.page GMT
My problem with Grot 6’s analysis is that he used share price and nothing else. He took two share prices, noticed it had gone down, assumed it was the fault of a line manager and declared GW would be out of business in 6 months. He’d be laughed out of a highschool economics class for something that poor.[/quote]

I am still waiting for grot to pull his foot out of his mouth, so we can hear how he actually responds to the economics issue. Even though you did tell him exactly what to rebut with, I am sure he will still resort to 209 to 172 = loss..


[quote=JohnHwangDD]

I suspect that there are a number of GW Devs who monitor Dakka and other forums, but prefer to do so anonymously.

. [/quote]

Shoot we know GW employees and Dave Taylor frequent here, so it's a pretty fair assessment to think that the developers frequent as well. Besides, what would they tell us? It's not like the majority of us wouldn't just start bad mouthing them if they did respond on the forums. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307036.page GMT
Even for you, I'll make it easier, so you don't misunderstand what I was saying before you started off on some other tangent.

If a game sucks, it sucks for a particular reason. The shares have been riding high on the hog in the past, PERIOD see that? Look back at the 800's range. Now, with the lame old way of the past six or so years, this thing is running around at 172.00. YOU, SEBSTER come in out of left field and go for my well orchistrated comment on the share price, and start on and on about WTF ever, and come to the comment, and still, you think thats a good deal?
The reason that this game began to suck is that we have to put up with deff, dumm, and mute types that tell us- "Share price is indicative of many, many things. It is affected, across the industry, by macroeconomic factors such as the A share price is an excellent tool, but it has to be used well. It is ultimately an indicator of risk and the expected dividend stream, which is related to cashflow, which is loosely related to sales. But then there’s a lot of other factors that affect share price; real interest rate, inflation, consumer, rumours and speculation, investor expectations and other miscellaneous factors"

I know another excellent tool.

If you haven't figured it out yet, I didn't go into all of that.

When you go back and do a complete 360 degree turn and pretty much tell everyone out there from STORES, SHOP OWNERS, LOCAL GAME STORES, to even the GW stores themselves out there that sell the crap, to those of us poor squallid masses ( I.E. the FAN's, the Buyers, the Customers, the Fanboyz( like even old nasty Talking Heads) That this is a hobby, and what we do is sell a product that has to do with the imagination, hobby, and playing a game, and then you go back and pretty much tell me that " WAAAAGGHHH, YOU Newb, it's OUR hobby, we'll tell you how to have fun, you better stay a newb forever, or we are going to bring out the nerf bat and beat you over the head so much that it ruins the game, and then we will come up with a thousand different things that are the real fun, this time, WE PROMISE!!!

After awile, nobody wants to hear that anymore. People don't think that GW is serious about anything, anymore, except screwing over the customer. Then, after, what 3 years? They come out and give one of the older guys that has stayed in the background for so long, that no one knows exactly what his position is anymore, spouts off in his " Standard Bearer" which when he started out with was to explain his views ( WTF, Standard Bearer? HELLO, MCFLY!?!?!?) Jerivs is the lead on the games development. He is the Wizard behind the mouthpiece.
I said it before, and here it is again. These suits do the thinking, Jervis just has to sell it to us so we take it.

Look, you want to talk economics, sure, here's mine, Supply- Demand. If I want to play a well oiled game with some guys and some tanks, You don't get me doing it by nerfing the game to the point of ineptitued, and then coming back out of left field again and busting out pretty much the whole of the player base and tell them they are not doing it the right way.

I drink Beam and Coke, paint till my eyes fall out, and then go and play games that I have fun with. I don't NEED to go into a asshat discussion about something as petty as Stock Prices, quotes and all of that. You go ahead if you want. If you have fun with that, then thats you're thing. But from where I'm sitting, I was playing a kick ass game a few years back. Jervis the Clown, Gav the Noob, and the last batch of brush washers pretty much came back and so called "reinvented" something that we all know well and good needed only a few tweeks, a little play testing, and more attention the some asshat beancounter like SEBSTER can even come close to with his fuzzy butt.

Want to go into specifics?
The basic rules were something to start with. Until they come out with HQ Troop Troop. Oh, boy, I wonder who I play today? I remember the Genestealer cults, The WHAAAGH Kult of Speed, Pulsa Rockket combo of crashtastic proportions, followed on by TWO Shock-Attack guns blowing grots into gubbins everywhich way. they shoot throught the warp and away they go!!!
Ever seen a grot in the pail warp light?

Chaos. someone goes and busts thier butt to make an army. specific to me, them or whoever, and then they go back and tell you, " Chaos Space marines are just naughty marines. They don't associate with demons, and there sure the heck arn't any silly cultists. ( even though for years, you could pimp out some guard and there you go, Cultists.) Posessed, yay me! A totally random unit in an army. Thats something I always wanted. Bringing order to chaos was the worst idea they ever came up with.

Blood Angels. We don't need no stinkin Codex, we gots de internets'is!!! Nevermind that all it doesn't tell you is that you get to paint them red this time. Nevermind that you LOSE prettymuch all of the reasons that made the army worth the close combat gods that they USED to be.

Tyranids. This squid does this, and that pink squid does that. Go ahead and put some money into an army that in a year, you will have to scrap because " We didn't like the way it fights."

And on and on and on.
Talking heads, these new and improved codexes are dull as you. And once again, I say its a loss. A loss of using your own imagination for the common good. A loss of individuality, a loss of share values, and a loss of those fans that the GW of a few years ago grabbed up with open arms, showed you a door, and let you look in the dirty gore hole of the warp and come out with your own puss filled nightmere of the dark future.

Wait until we get to see the double talk of what they come out with next. Oh, you get a few choices, we just don't want to tell you how many for fear of failure and maybe an idea or two that might need somebody other then a yes man to go down on. heaven forbid that they go out on a limb and actually let people play a game and have a good time. We need to have more rules arguments, sans discussions that basicly go on and on to the point of " Roll a D6 to call da Rulze Boyz."
Aside from your plastcine argument attacking my comment, This is the gist of my post that you oh so graciously clamped down on.

ME, MY, and MINE, you tool!

"Its a loss. Jervis takes claim for the grand "Vision, or lack there of", and continues to postulate to the mass of gamers out there who for some unknown reason still believe anything he says. Standard Bearer is probibly the worst idea to have for him. He was better as the "nice guy", letting Andy do the talking.

How it has to do with the conversation is that his "Vision"= Game. People either WANT TO play it, or DON'T WANT TO play it. based on how the rules are. If 5th's rules suck, then 172.50 goes to 170.00 to 165.50... until redline, and then we see old Jervis come out with a final "Standard Bearer" with," Well, I've decided to take a little vacation, I 'll be gone awile, maybe I'll see you over in Specialist games, which looks like I can do some good..."

2004 is Ancient history in the buisness world. Gaming world, its almost as old. War Machine came out when again? D and D is how old??? and yet, we have 5th edition 40K. As well as that, How long has Armageddon been out again, and how many people play it regularly, again?

As for the last bit, I'm right. It doesn't take a genius to tell me that they need to make money. They want it bad, and they are trying anything short of bashing people over the head to get at thier wallets. Unfortunatly, the suits arn't going to give up the powerbase and let people who know games make the serious decisions."

Bottom line up front, You can't put a hat on a pig.

When the game kicked ass, the share price was up at 800, now its down to the wire, and your grabbing at straws to tell me that bunch of greek salad that 172.00 is a good thing bringing up all sorts of other factors. Yagh, sure. WTF ever.

I can only hope that 5th edition will bring them out of thier slump, because Apocacrap didn't do anything other then bring back 2d edition.

Hope only lasts so long. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307339.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307345.page GMT Apoc will be like in 5th with the new blast marker and wound allocation rules. Didn't Apoc games take long enough already?

BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307372.page GMT Apoc is the game you either hate or love. Whichever side you take now, I don't think it will change enough under 5th to change your mind.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307492.page GMT Wow, hate much?

Actually, I think Jervis is riding high ATM due to Apocalypse. You may not like him, 40k, or Apoc, but Apoc made a huge impact on GW's bottom line, so he's not going to be canned anytime soon.[/quote]

At 172.50, Apocalypse has done absolutly craptacular for the game. He's riding a wave of confusion if anything.[/quote]

Admission: I know sod all about stock market etc. What I do know is that while all problems have a root, it aint always that obvious. That said I would be a fool to blame the company share price on one man. There are other things that affect sales and ultimately their share price than some lacklustre rules in a dex.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307537.page GMT [quote=Chimera_Calvin]Excellent point JohnHwang, but surely that's where the community can come in?

If GW run a forum then it will be full of people complaining about GW!

[/quote]

haha

yes, just as well they dont have one

anymore....... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307538.page GMT
Even for you, I'll make it easier, so you don't misunderstand what I was saying before you started off on some other tangent.

If a game sucks, it sucks for a particular reason. The shares have been riding high on the hog in the past, PERIOD see that? Look back at the 800's range. Now, with the lame old way of the past six or so years, this thing is running around at 172.00. YOU, SEBSTER come in out of left field and go for my well orchistrated comment on the share price, and start on and on about WTF ever, and come to the comment, and still, you think thats a good deal?[/quote]

Well orchestrated? Is English your first language?

[quote]The reason that this game began to suck is that we have to put up with deff, dumm, and mute types that tell us- "Share price is indicative of many, many things. It is affected, across the industry, by macroeconomic factors such as the A share price is an excellent tool, but it has to be used well. It is ultimately an indicator of risk and the expected dividend stream, which is related to cashflow, which is loosely related to sales. But then there’s a lot of other factors that affect share price; real interest rate, inflation, consumer, rumours and speculation, investor expectations and other miscellaneous factors" [/quote]

I thought Jervis was the reason? Or is it now Jervis and me?

[quote]When you go back and do a complete 360 degree turn and pretty much tell everyone out there from STORES, SHOP OWNERS, LOCAL GAME STORES, to even the GW stores themselves out there that sell the crap, to those of us poor squallid masses ( I.E. the FAN's, the Buyers, the Customers, the Fanboyz( like even old nasty Talking Heads) That this is a hobby, and what we do is sell a product that has to do with the imagination, hobby, and playing a game, and then you go back and pretty much tell me that " WAAAAGGHHH, YOU Newb, it's OUR hobby, we'll tell you how to have fun, you better stay a newb forever, or we are going to bring out the nerf bat and beat you over the head so much that it ruins the game, and then we will come up with a thousand different things that are the real fun, this time, WE PROMISE!!![/quote]

You probably need to read things after writing them, and ask yourself ‘is that a coherent train of thought?’

[quote]After awile, nobody wants to hear that anymore. People don't think that GW is serious about anything, anymore, except screwing over the customer. Then, after, what 3 years? They come out and give one of the older guys that has stayed in the background for so long, that no one knows exactly what his position is anymore, spouts off in his " Standard Bearer" which when he started out with was to explain his views ( WTF, Standard Bearer? HELLO, MCFLY!?!?!?) Jerivs is the lead on the games development. He is the Wizard behind the mouthpiece.

I said it before, and here it is again. These suits do the thinking, Jervis just has to sell it to us so we take it.[/quote]

I explained it before, it isn’t complicated. If BHP share price drops, you don’t look at the guy managing the Australian base metals division, and ignore the people running larger divisions, let alone corporate management.

[quote]Look, you want to talk economics, sure, here's mine, Supply- Demand. If I want to play a well oiled game with some guys and some tanks, You don't get me doing it by nerfing the game to the point of ineptitued, and then coming back out of left field again and busting out pretty much the whole of the player base and tell them they are not doing it the right way.

I drink Beam and Coke, paint till my eyes fall out, and then go and play games that I have fun with. I don't NEED to go into a asshat discussion about something as petty as Stock Prices, quotes and all of that. You go ahead if you want. If you have fun with that, then thats you're thing. But from where I'm sitting, I was playing a kick ass game a few years back. Jervis the Clown, Gav the Noob, and the last batch of brush washers pretty much came back and so called "reinvented" something that we all know well and good needed only a few tweeks, a little play testing, and more attention the some asshat beancounter like SEBSTER can even come close to with his fuzzy butt.[/quote]

You don’t have to debate stock prices. You can accept that you sounded off on the internet about something you didn’t really understand and got called on it. It happens to the best of us, I’ve been schooled more than once on things I thought I knew. You take your licks and you move on.

Or you can throw out some incoherent gibberish and some personal attacks, and pretty much make an ass of yourself.

I decided not to go through the rest of post, it contained your opinions on a couple of codices and a repeat of your that GW financial success is determined by your opinion of the 40K rules. I liked the bit about putting a hat on a pig, that was pretty cool..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307621.page GMT
Even for you, I'll make it easier, so you don't misunderstand what I was saying before you started off on some other tangent.

If a game sucks, it sucks for a particular reason. The shares have been riding high on the hog in the past, PERIOD see that? Look back at the 800's range. Now, with the lame old way of the past six or so years, this thing is running around at 172.00. YOU, SEBSTER come in out of left field and go for my well orchistrated comment on the share price, and start on and on about WTF ever, and come to the comment, and still, you think thats a good deal?[/quote]

Well orchestrated? Is English your first language?

[quote]The reason that this game began to suck is that we have to put up with deff, dumm, and mute types that tell us- "Share price is indicative of many, many things. It is affected, across the industry, by macroeconomic factors such as the A share price is an excellent tool, but it has to be used well. It is ultimately an indicator of risk and the expected dividend stream, which is related to cashflow, which is loosely related to sales. But then there’s a lot of other factors that affect share price; real interest rate, inflation, consumer, rumours and speculation, investor expectations and other miscellaneous factors" [/quote]

I thought Jervis was the reason? Or is it now Jervis and me?

[quote]When you go back and do a complete 360 degree turn and pretty much tell everyone out there from STORES, SHOP OWNERS, LOCAL GAME STORES, to even the GW stores themselves out there that sell the crap, to those of us poor squallid masses ( I.E. the FAN's, the Buyers, the Customers, the Fanboyz( like even old nasty Talking Heads) That this is a hobby, and what we do is sell a product that has to do with the imagination, hobby, and playing a game, and then you go back and pretty much tell me that " WAAAAGGHHH, YOU Newb, it's OUR hobby, we'll tell you how to have fun, you better stay a newb forever, or we are going to bring out the nerf bat and beat you over the head so much that it ruins the game, and then we will come up with a thousand different things that are the real fun, this time, WE PROMISE!!![/quote]

You probably need to read things after writing them, and ask yourself ‘is that a coherent train of thought?’

[quote]After awile, nobody wants to hear that anymore. People don't think that GW is serious about anything, anymore, except screwing over the customer. Then, after, what 3 years? They come out and give one of the older guys that has stayed in the background for so long, that no one knows exactly what his position is anymore, spouts off in his " Standard Bearer" which when he started out with was to explain his views ( WTF, Standard Bearer? HELLO, MCFLY!?!?!?) Jerivs is the lead on the games development. He is the Wizard behind the mouthpiece.

I said it before, and here it is again. These suits do the thinking, Jervis just has to sell it to us so we take it.[/quote]

I explained it before, it isn’t complicated. If BHP share price drops, you don’t look at the guy managing the Australian base metals division, and ignore the people running larger divisions, let alone corporate management.

[quote]Look, you want to talk economics, sure, here's mine, Supply- Demand. If I want to play a well oiled game with some guys and some tanks, You don't get me doing it by nerfing the game to the point of ineptitued, and then coming back out of left field again and busting out pretty much the whole of the player base and tell them they are not doing it the right way.

I drink Beam and Coke, paint till my eyes fall out, and then go and play games that I have fun with. I don't NEED to go into a asshat discussion about something as petty as Stock Prices, quotes and all of that. You go ahead if you want. If you have fun with that, then thats you're thing. But from where I'm sitting, I was playing a kick ass game a few years back. Jervis the Clown, Gav the Noob, and the last batch of brush washers pretty much came back and so called "reinvented" something that we all know well and good needed only a few tweeks, a little play testing, and more attention the some asshat beancounter like SEBSTER can even come close to with his fuzzy butt.[/quote]

You don’t have to debate stock prices. You can accept that you sounded off on the internet about something you didn’t really understand and got called on it. It happens to the best of us, I’ve been schooled more than once on things I thought I knew. You take your licks and you move on.

Or you can throw out some incoherent gibberish and some personal attacks, and pretty much make an ass of yourself.

I decided not to go through the rest of post, it contained your opinions on a couple of codices and a repeat of your that GW financial success is determined by your opinion of the 40K rules. I liked the bit about putting a hat on a pig, that was pretty cool..[/quote]

You have my vote for of the year, sebster.

Aside from the fact that you didn't read anything other then what you wanted. I already went on FROM THE BEGINNING that my post wasn't about the freakin stocks!!!!
the Stocks! I'm saying that this game is being run into the ground by beancounters who know about as much about playing this game as you do about reading my post in the first place.
YOU are the going on about stocks. I'M the saying the company is going into the toilet because they continue to alienate the costumer base.

HERE IT IS FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:

"Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.
A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.
Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.
Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."- GW

Not that YOU give a . Your still hung up on the freakin' stocks.

NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY A STOCK OR STAY IN A COMPANY IF THE PRODUCT CONTINUES TO SUCK. Now you want to go on and on about schooling. you.

You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

forget it, though. You'd rather quote stocks or around with semantics.
I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307752.page GMT GW's definition of "The Hobby" is actually the reason for their success. GW built itself up by selling a wide variety of games stuff from D&D to licensed products (RuneQuest), figures and rules and games they produced by themselves.

The period of their long ascendancy broadly coincides with the time they were a multi-range games retailer and producer.

The period of their long, gradual decline has coincided with their concentration on WHFB, 40K and LoTR.

GW need to diversify again and come back with products like Talisman and Space Hulk.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307758.page GMT The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.[/quote]
So, if I'm reading you right, what [b]you[/b] consider to be a "reasonable metric" (the topic of this thread, if you'll recall) for Jervis' skills as a games designer, is whether GW's [b]sales[/b] goes up?

[quote] I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.[/quote]
Promises... always with the promises... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307796.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307977.page GMT of the year, sebster.

Aside from the fact that you didn't read anything other then what you wanted. I already went on FROM THE BEGINNING that my post wasn't about the freakin stocks!!!!
the Stocks! I'm saying that this game is being run into the ground by beancounters who know about as much about playing this game as you do about reading my post in the first place.
YOU are the going on about stocks. I'M the saying the company is going into the toilet because they continue to alienate the costumer base.

HERE IT IS FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:

"Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.
A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.
Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.
Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."- GW

Not that YOU give a . Your still hung up on the freakin' stocks.

NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY A STOCK OR STAY IN A COMPANY IF THE PRODUCT CONTINUES TO SUCK. Now you want to go on and on about schooling. you.

You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

forget it, though. You'd rather quote stocks or around with semantics.
I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

[/quote]

I think in order to get the most out the internet and to give the most to others, you need to work hard on your knowledge base, as well as your communication and rhetorical skills. It's good and well to hop on-line and sound off about something, but there's a point where you have to ask yourself 'I am just spouting non-sense?'

Fortunately the internet is a wonderful to develop these things. Keep working young fella, maybe one day...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/307997.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308001.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308013.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308110.page GMT
JHDD: I take it sebster usu. has a crappy posting style?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308121.page GMT
Coming from you thats a badge of honor, you have to know that your opinion really matters.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308132.page GMT of the year, sebster.

Aside from the fact that you didn't read anything other then what you wanted. I already went on FROM THE BEGINNING that my post wasn't about the freakin stocks!!!!
the Stocks! I'm saying that this game is being run into the ground by beancounters who know about as much about playing this game as you do about reading my post in the first place.
YOU are the going on about stocks. I'M the saying the company is going into the toilet because they continue to alienate the costumer base.

HERE IT IS FROM THE HORSES MOUTH:

"Investors and potential investors in Games Workshop need to understand what we mean by the Hobby.
A hobby is something people make time for. It is not a pass-time and therefore not usually analogous to watching TV or playing computer games. In our case, as with most hobbies, it involves commitment, collection, craft or manual skills and imagination. Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe. This involves huge amounts of time.
Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over.
Our job therefore revolves around our ability to recruit new gamers (of all ages) and keep them in the Hobby.

We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New Hobbyists are likely to start with core systems or The Lord of The Rings Strategy Battle Game, which as well as a being a challenging adventure is also an excellent introductory game."- GW

Not that YOU give a . Your still hung up on the freakin' stocks.

NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY A STOCK OR STAY IN A COMPANY IF THE PRODUCT CONTINUES TO SUCK. Now you want to go on and on about schooling. you.

You don't even know what this whole thread is about in the first place, then you go in and pick at my post without even reading it and then you think you know something?
The stock makes money if the product sells. If it doesn't sell, people arn't interested in the stock.

Here's my whole thought process, simple enough for even you-
Jervis's buisness is games. People either want to buy them or they don't. After awile, after people don't buy enough,the product doesn't sell. People don't make money on the stocks- Jervis Goes by-by.

forget it, though. You'd rather quote stocks or around with semantics.
I'm done with explaining the same thing over and over to the likes of you.

[/quote]

I think in order to get the most out the internet and to give the most to others, you need to work hard on your knowledge base, as well as your communication and rhetorical skills. It's good and well to hop on-line and sound off about something, but there's a point where you have to ask yourself 'I am just spouting non-sense?'

Fortunately the internet is a wonderful to develop these things. Keep working young fella, maybe one day...[/quote]

Keep on keeping on, you
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308135.page GMT Welcome to Dakka. If it makes you feel any better, see what happened to my 5th Edition "Thoughts and Comments" thread.


[quote=grizgrin]JHDD: I take it sebster usu. has a crappy posting style?[/quote]
Dakka has a search feature. You can use it to see what others think of his posting style.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308192.page GMT
I made a comment that the line of reasoning used didn’t work all that well (stock price defined by ruleset). From there a conversation can go in a lot of different directions, you can start about what’s really driven the fall in GW stock prices, or you can start looking at a real metric for the popularity of a ruleset.

But all you have to do is read Grot6’s replies to get a pretty clear idea about why that conversation didn’t happen. What exactly do you expect me to reply with when all Grot6 comes up with is incoherent screeds?


Meanwhile JonHwangDD launches a driveby. Seriously dude, what the hell have I argued with you about? I remember a discussion about the rumoured IG rules that lasted a few posts, and something in one of the rumoured 5th ed threads, neither of which were heated.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308217.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308256.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212435/308336.page GMT
The core game system hasn't changed. Some of the detail changes (vehicle movement speeds, changes to cover and LoS rules) may affect the balance of power slightly, depending on the exact matchups played.

If I am not mistaken, the Tau Empire codex, which is now 2 years old, will be the oldest unreissued 4th edition codex for another 2 years or more. The older 3rd edition codexes have either been upgraded to 4.9 (Eldar) or are in the pipeline.

Do you think the rule changes are significantly good or bad for Tau? How would you change things for the 5th edition Tau codex?

More generally, allowing 4-5 years for an edition life cycle, the slow pace of codex releases means some armies don't get renewed within the lifetime of an edition. Forexample, DE and IG. Players would get seriously annoyed if their army got made unworkable for 2-3 years.[/quote]
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