http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Serious questions here... the last discussion about meta gaming got me thinking that to some degree it does exist even if we choose to ignore it. I am curious how veteran gamers here believe the new edition will affect the current state of the meta game.

G

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I wouldn't say I am a veteran, but in my opinion the two most important changes are the revised movement rates (vehicles slower, infantry quicker) and the increased importance of Troops. This clearly alters the relationship between infantry and other units especially vehicles, and must make infantry assault armies more powerful.

I don't see a lot that benefits shooty armies so I think the balance of power has changed in favour of horde assault.

But what do I know?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302002.page GMT las/plas.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302010.page GMT las/plas.[/quote]

Yes, though I expect SMs to take more troops and have as many Las and Plas as before but spread out among more bolters in more squads. Since nearly all armies will probably also have more troops and fewer special units, this means the SMs will be at no big disadvantage, except possibly against each other (and MEqs.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302017.page GMT las cannon towards more mid range multi purpose weapons like the missile launcher or the auto cannon. This, in turn, may up the viability of heavy tanks if anti tank power starts to become less attractive to more players. All in all though I think some armies are going to disapear (las/plas) and other are going to see a huge boost in popularity and power (hord orcs, nid zilla, gaunt hord)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302021.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302021.page GMT
So far, everything I have seen leads me to believe that horde armies are going to have a field day, and specialist armies will have issues.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302026.page GMT SM codex comes out. However, going with what is available now seems to be striking the delicate balance of anti MEQ/anti armor/anti horde. My Eldar are going through the revamp while my Orks are in a slow state of being built.

For my Eldar, I'm looking at the Eldar Missile Launcher as a key weapon that seems to fit all three roles previously mentioned. With the lack of area terrain as we know it is forcing me to look at other ways for my fragile army to remain intact. Reserves/Deep
Strike/Flanking and Autarchs seem a good way to help with that.

Orks, well, lots of bodies and lots of shooting. Not a whole lot more than that at this point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302044.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302067.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302074.page GMT
I don't see a lot that benefits shooty armies so I think the balance of power has changed in favour of horde assault.

[/quote]

Besides the fact that lanes of fire are going to be WIDE open due to true line of sight and no consolidation into hth combat?

Shooty armies are smiling indeed....and cannot wait for 5th, at least mine cannot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302088.page GMT 2d6-BS and all partials are now hits (????), just got a huge boost for the points cost. I think we will see many more of those, given the assumptions. I know for a FACT that I will be seeing more of those around my FLGS.

Are jump infantry getting the d6 run in shooting phase as well? That'll be sick.

I have to agree with beef. I haven't seen too much freaking out lately, but I'm sure that as Release Day approaches some of the Nancy boys will be watering the ground at their own feet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302104.page GMT
BYE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302232.page GMT
I don't see a lot that benefits shooty armies so I think the balance of power has changed in favour of horde assault.

[/quote]

Besides the fact that lanes of fire are going to be WIDE open due to true line of sight and no consolidation into hth combat?

Shooty armies are smiling indeed....and cannot wait for 5th, at least mine cannot.[/quote]

The second bit is very helpful, true, also rapid fire shots can now now out 24 inches (30 for Tau.) Against that, while LoS is more open, cover values have increased and screening by units is back. Also, isn't it true that units don't become non-scoring until eliminated? This will favour large horde units, if morale will not make them run away.

Maybe it will become the screaming horde vs the static gun line.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302245.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302254.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302334.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302337.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302422.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302448.page GMT
Overall, I think the rules will have to be digested before the metagame settles down. I think the 40k community is still trying to digest the Ork codex. We may have figured it out but armies take a while to revamp.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302498.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302498.page GMT
all the nidzilla lists i played against used the 6 ripper swarms and then focused on alot of raveners/warriors to get their rending. I presume though alot will use genestealers and then have a wall of spinegaunts for the 4+ cover save wall.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302538.page GMT cc one can't then consolidate into another unit.

I think this may make the horde ork armies a better choice than the speak freak lists (30 boys can take a shooting after winning cc better than 12 trukk boys, right?).

Just a thought.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302558.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302561.page GMT I said that about 4th edition, but Warmachine took off for
me instead.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/302579.page GMT
My answer: Not much.

Now, everyones going to think I'm nuts here, but after reading through the rulebook quickly today, I have to say that the biggest changes were in the missions in the book. Aside from that, a tweak here, a tweak there, some significant stuff about vehicles, balanced by other changes here and there...but aside from that, I think that the core principles behind the strong army builds today will keep them strong builds in a month and a half.

Seriously, what are the Tier 1 builds right now (the ones people plan armies around).

Godzilla Nids
Necron Flying Circus
Tri-falcon Eldar
Shooty Horde Orks

Then what are the Tier 2 builds (armies that, in the hands of a good player, can reliably defeat a Tier 1 build)?
SM Drop Storm
Mech Guard
Mech/Semi-Mech Tau
Stealer Shock

There's some other stong builds out there that should be Tier 2 too...but these are the ones that come to mind for me. Notice anything about those builds...every one, except for the Stealer Shock, is a shooting-based design. Most of them have at least some assault capability, but except for the Stealer Shock, none of them utilize assault as their primary means of destroying the enemy.

To be honest, I don't see this changing. Sure, there's going to be cover saves up the wazoo for everyone...but I think that ultimately it'll mean very little.

The fact is, that shooting armies have been dominating the metagame for years...because in most cases, even if you win an assault, you're going to take casualties. Making the assaults more decisive (which it looks like they've accomplished) just means that players looking for reliable, resilient performers are going to continue to focus on shooting.



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It's not so much that or stealer shock would be an unexplainable abberation.

Its that a shooting army doesn't have to worry about taking casualties in its own shooting phase. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303056.page GMT
When you mention taking casualties in it's own shooting phase, I'm getting a little lost. Spoon feed for a minute, if you could? Are you speaking of stealer shock in particular, or H2H/assault armies in general? Damnit, this is going to be simple, and I'm going to be pissed at myself when I see the answer, I can feel it...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303073.page GMT
I think the tri-oblit dual lash list moves higher in the power categories...by quite a bit, sadly for my opinion of lash. I can smack stealer shock around pretty bad with it these days. Lash and PC barrages...it's just unfair really.

I've gotten quite good with it, I can bring all of those 'tier 1' lists down.

I'm not sure why you list necrap anywhere in the powerful lists. They're horrible in 5th edition.

All heavy weapons > Flyers. Everything else > Warriors and Immortals. Pray they keep megatron 'guarding' their lines so you can shoot them off the map.

I think you've totally underestimated the power of mechanized lists to make a comeback. Seriously, in a big way.

Nidzilla, TriFalcon Eldar, Flying Circus, and Shooty orks all cannot effectively deal with tons of vehicles backed by infantry.

Hell I can still shut down all 4 lists with my DE, which has been their prime feat during most of 4th edition. In 5th they're even more horrendous.

Cent I agree with you that most heavy shooting armies win. Been playing under that assumption since 3.5 really. Stealer shock can win because even 4 stealers out of 72 can fuck you up. lol

However with getting shot in between combat rounds, I think stealer shock is moving down in power.

I think warrior shock will return. Do you remember when they were beasts and could run? Yeah, I had like 18 of the leaping warriors and they shut everything out. Don't even need carapace on them if they can run turn 1...

Ah well, sorry, rambling. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303074.page GMT
When you mention taking casualties in it's own shooting phase, I'm getting a little lost. Spoon feed for a minute, if you could? Are you speaking of stealer shock in particular, or H2H/assault armies in general? Damnit, this is going to be simple, and I'm going to be pissed at myself when I see the answer, I can feel it...[/quote]

It's because that generally, even in an exceptional assault unit, when they get into assault, they're going to take casualties. This results in a continual degradation of power as the game progresses.

It's really, really tough to field a unit that dominates in an assault...most armies just can't do it. About the only two I've found that can do it reliably are Genestealers in a Tyranid army, and Wyches in a DE army. It's a combination of ability to hit hard, and to hit hard before your opponent can strike back.

The jury's still out on whether 5th ed will allow SS to remain viable. My gut feeling after reading through the codex is that it will, with some relatively minor changes.

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While I agree that you will be up the preverbal creek without a paddle should your army contain no high strength AP2 weapons, I think that the weapons that fill that role will shift from things like the las cannon towards more short range options like melta guns and possibly plasma. This will mostly be due to the fact that the longer ranged options are getting more and more expensive with each codex (dark angles, eldar, and the like) while the short ranged ones are staying more or less where they were. Just my thoughts.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303149.page GMT
It's not so much that or stealer shock would be an unexplainable abberation.

Its that a shooting army doesn't have to worry about taking casualties in its own shooting phase. [/quote]

That has more or less always been my guiding principle of army building. Hand to hand if fun and all and you can see some really beat downs there sometimes, but its always better to kill the enemy from so far away that they can't really hurt you. Just my style, but it seems to work well for me and for many others as well. Guess that's why they are buffing up assault units' ability to get there with the run rule and more solid transports.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303152.page GMT
Land Raiders...man. Stopping them is a PITA.

The SW LR rush or BT LRC rush can totally work now, only a handful of specific army builds can stop LR. And about half of those go out the window when BT get involved.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303167.page GMT
Land Raiders...man. Stopping them is a PITA.

The SW LR rush or BT LRC rush can totally work now, only a handful of specific army builds can stop LR. And about half of those go out the window when BT get involved.[/quote]

Grey Knights

Land Raider x3 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303176.page GMT
However GK termies, while expensive as all get out, really are doom for alot of armies.

Especially now, with the mass removal of furious charge from almost every unit in the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303180.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303347.page GMT BT LRC.

I haven't been talking in fear of BT for nothing...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303358.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303358.page GMT
While I agree that you will be up the preverbal creek without a paddle should your army contain no high strength AP2 weapons, I think that the weapons that fill that role will shift from things like the las cannon towards more short range options like melta guns and possibly plasma. This will mostly be due to the fact that the longer ranged options are getting more and more expensive with each codex (dark angles, eldar, and the like) while the short ranged ones are staying more or less where they were. Just my thoughts.

[/quote]

With infantry moving faster, and vehicles moving slower, shorter range AT weapons become more effective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303397.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303514.page GMT
Some armies do troops better than others.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303541.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/303753.page GMT IG, Black Templar, old school style nids, Space Wolves, true mech armies with dedicated transports). I think that will have an interesting and hard to predict effect on the meta-game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/305904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/305904.page GMT BT for nothing...[/quote]

Yup...and I am glad I have enough versatility to adapt to any thing 5th throws my army. Currently, my Templars are running 2 LRCs. In 5th I wonder how much of a boost that is. The other thing that gets a boost is Helbrect and a command squad. In 5th edition, that thing is sick.

Capt K]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306056.page GMT IG Anti-Tank to using Melta Guns instead of Lascannons for primary anti-tank.

As long as those Meltas are on fairly mobile units, you can count on knocking out the LR's.

Also because of the no-consolidate rules, I think we will see an increase in MSU style tactics or disposable units that you can use just to speedbump your opponent. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306062.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306062.page GMT MSU?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306165.page GMT
It's mainly a WHFB thing, but if you can't consolidate into squads after CC anymore, I can see people taking small cheap units to force "Speed Bump" Assaults.

EDIT: Would work wonders with Kroot and Tau, as long as the enemy units weren't jump infantry that could "hop over" the Kroot. Or you could spread the Kroot out so there's no way to assault the hiding Tau behind them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306169.page GMT One thing is for sure, it will be a golden age of 40K gaming. Doesn't look like much got hurt besides the one army almost everyone hates. And just about everything else seems like it got a bump. All of these tweaks to the rules mean more room to make good plays and more chances to capitalize on your opponents mistakes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306183.page GMT One thing is for sure, it will be a golden age of 40K gaming. Doesn't look like much got hurt besides the one army almost everyone hates. And just about everything else seems like it got a bump. All of these tweaks to the rules mean more room to make good plays and more chances to capitalize on your opponents mistakes.[/quote]

Don't be so sure. Certain armies will go down hill as "powerful" but Nidzilla isn't that nerfed since their units can "Contest" objectives.

Mech Eldar will take a good hit to the face though, and I can't say that I'm not happy to see it happen.

Still, there will be abuses of the game and new top tier armies will arise. [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212725.page]Some of us are already working on developing them.[/url] ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306210.page GMT hth combat will definitly force assault armies to think quite a bit more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306218.page GMT hth combat will definitly force assault armies to think quite a bit more.[/quote]

Yeah but the problem is what it will make them think about: starting a shooty army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306237.page GMT
Metagame wise, most of the armies will stay the same. Eldar will still be hard, big bugs will be tough still, and horde orks might be ok. A big thing when noticing the horde orks, if you assault them, kill under 20 and win the combat, they will take casualties for every wound they lost by since they are fearless at the time. It isn't hard to win assault versus orks, it is just the grinding aspect, but with power klaw getting nerfed, assault squads become little death bombs to any ork squad they hit. Hell a bezerker squad should take out the 30 orks they attack, and most likely the next 30 that come to get revenge for their brothas.

Right now, from what we have seen as tiered in the local environment is

Mech Eldar
Big Bugs (all genestealers, no point in running anything else)
Horde Orks
Nob Biker armies of doom with Feel no Pain (If you want a list check out my blog)
Assault Cannon Marines
Double Lash, Chaos fun with Oblits
Some Mech Tau

Most likely the tiers will stay the same with smaller changes. Biggest thing is trying not to overwin the initial round of assault and finish it in there turn. I think assault armies will have to multilayer their assaults. Hit in waves in order to keep the opponent from getting a decisive counter assault. Jump troops and smaller speed bump troops will be a lot better and a ton more useful.

But these are just my thoughts from looking at how the game is moving. I am excited for 5th edition and think will make the game better. Will just see if my armies stay alright heh.

Pretty much in that order. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306239.page GMT
Ouch. That really hurt. I feel like I just woke up in the OTZone without any eyewear on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/212473/306429.page GMT