http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Plus our usual antics including:
- When Wives Attack
- Off the Table (Civilization Revolution)
- The Hollywood Minute
- & More

Please let us know what you think.

Link to our show: http://www.TheD6Generation.com




Link to thread about prior episode:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/215115.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/348997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/348997.page GMT
Great stuff, and I've only listened to 7 minutes so far...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349236.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349585.page GMT

I may have to stop listening, though, as every time I do I get an overwhelming urge to go out and buy more game stuff!!! (Are you guys on comission, or what? )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/349926.page GMT
I think Hollywood is confusing meta-gaming and cheating again though. If someone lies about believing there's no cover save, when they actually do believe there is one then that's cheating, not meta-gaming. Lying = cheating.

Meta-gaming to me would include things like making one of your two Steamroller tourney lists be a list tailored
for dealing with something you consider a likely threat - such as Sorcha, eVlad, Kreoss drop&pop or Cryx arc node spam. You can argue about whether meta-gaming is good or bad, but please stop comparing it to blatant cheating

I do always enjoy Hollywood's Minute though, they're always interesting even if I don't agree with everything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350099.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350105.page GMT 40K episode, the particularly negative guest host mentioned that this happened throughout a tournament he recently attended. I'm sorry, but I'd have to agree 100%Valhallan42nd. (Especially now) if someone tried this on me I'd START with "Are you ABSOLUTELY sure you want to do this?" and end with "Now that my boot is firmly planted up your arse, do you wish to continue with this game, or shall we call it a draw?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350509.page GMT
Meta-gaming is gaming about the game. If it involves deliberate lying (which the hollywood minute example did) then it's cheating.

If you feel that Circle or the Coven are major contenders at an upcoming tournament, then having one of your two lists be designed to deal with those armies speicifically would be meta-gaming.

Same with me bringing Druids of Orboros over blood-trackers even though I might like both units equally, but the Druids neuter Cryx spell assasination, so they get the nod for that reason.

Meta-gaming is not the same as flagrant cheating, which the example was.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350780.page GMT
Would you refer to the rule that the "cheater" is breaking? A page number perhaps?


Yes, I am playing the devils advocate here. I would not stoop to using this gimmick myself nor would I accept it being used against me. IMO it is metagaming and not cheating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350784.page GMT
If, as stated in the example the player really believed one thing but claimed to believe another, that falls under cheating.

If they didn't, then it isn't cheating.

Meta-gaming (harder to find a definition of that) doesn't involve deliberate dishonesty. If it does, then it leaves the realm of meta-gaming and goes in to cheating.

Meta-gaming, as in the examples I've given above can be perfectly fair. There's few people who will go to a tournament and won't think of what they're likely to face and try and bring lists that can deal with it. If you don't construct your tournament list in a complete vacumn then you are meta-gaming it.

There is no need to point to a rule that the cheater is breaking. Deliberate lying is not allowed in any of the GW games, or by PP.

There is also no rule that says "You're not allowed punch your opponent in the face", but that doesn't make it legal either.

The key point, I'm trying to make here is, once you go into the realm of deliberately lying, as in the example, it's cheating, not meta-gaming.

I'm comfortable to say that I meta-game at tournaments, for example, I would never bring Morvhana as my only caster because she is totally neutered by half a dozen other casters who dispel or steal upkeeps. I would never cheat, intentially lie or even lie by omission to an opponent. I think that's a fair distinction.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350786.page GMT TFG will just say; "no, im not. I am truly in doubt wether that unit is in cover".
Its like how a verbal contract is just as binding as a written one (in my country at least), but infinitly more difficult to prove.

But in the end it don't matter much, as we can just go through the motions of actually determining the validity of cover using the majority rule.
I don't waste my time with tournaments so I will never run into a game where the extra time is a big issue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350792.page GMT

I just said that in the example given, where the example was that the player was doing it deliberately, that it is cheating, not meta-gaming.

[quote]If someone lies about believing there's no cover save, when they actually do believe there is one then that's cheating, not meta-gaming. Lying = cheating. [/quote]

My point is that Hollywood seems to consider the two things the same, I don't, that's all.

And another very amusing 'When Wives Attack' by the way. Lots of good advice - I kept my nerdiness secret from my fiancee for the first few months and gentle eased her into it It's definitely worked out, I have her playing Descent campaigns now, and I even proposed to her just after a game of Carcassonne. Before you guys recommended it fortunaltey, I think proposing after a D6G recommended board-game would be that final step too geeky even for me ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350795.page GMT
I thought I would chime in after giving the forums a chance to respond. Yes. My example sets up a person as cheating by giving you his mind set when he declares the cover save. I do not believe cheating = meta gaming. I do believe however as other people have stated that the person pulling this move would not say he does not really believe there is no cover save. Ok there are too many double negatives in there. A person is not going to admit, "I really think there is no cover save" He is going to say "No, no, those guys over there are a little in the open, right?" What I was getting at is, what does one do with the cheating meta-game if you will. Now I am not saying that all meta gamers are cheating. I am merely wondering how you all would deal with the uscrupulous person who uses this kind of tactic as [i]his [/i]meta game. What say you all.

Hollywood]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350842.page GMT
I do make my lists in a complete vacuum.

Makes for better lists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350848.page GMT RTT's, there is a vehicle to address a person like this, IE, sportsmanship scores. That being said, it's likely that this person will also intentionally give low scores for sports/painting given that he's also trying to gain an advantage via cheese-ing. I'd ask the judge/TO to review his given scores as well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350849.page GMT
[b]I do make my lists in a complete vacuum.[/b]

[/quote]

Which is probably why Nature abhors them... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350850.page GMT
That's why I think it's a bad rule for tournaments, but a fine rule for friendly games. GW don't seem as bothered about making their game as tournament tight as PP do. Which is fair enough.

I don't like rules that leave things open to interpretation or judgement calls, because there always will be the odd person who'll exploit it to cheat, and sportsmanship score systems have flaws of their own. My personal favourite would be that red card system you guys suggested, and that a few tourneys do use.

It's very difficult for rules writers to avoid all interpretation questions, but deliberately writing one in as a core rule seems silly to me.

I don't have to face any of these sort of issues with my friendly gaming club, but, I quite enjoy tournaments, the only down side is the occassional ass like Craigg met, or the very occassional person who deliberately cheats. Making that as hard to do is a good thing imo, and PP do a better job of it currently by leaving the absolute minimum open to interpretation, and clarifying what is accidentally left debatable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350905.page GMT PP wants to grow the hobby by making their tournaments successfully competitive.

GW has never cared to do this, considering it a drain on company resources, and GT attendance just keeps on stagnating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350907.page GMT
As to the cover save issue, I don't do tournaments so I doubt it will ever come up with the people I typically game with. However, whether you call metagaming or cheating, it still smells funny and I would handle it with Craig's Boot Up The Arse approach for that game and avoid playing that person in the future. Life is too short to deal with that nonsense, especially in what is really a hobby.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350940.page GMT
Quozl: Couldn't agree more. Metagaming is NOT cheating. It's taking into account all the beyond-rules-as-written variables such as most common armies, common missions, etc.

Quozl and Steelmage99: I do think this example can be taken to an extreme where it would be cheating, but you're right: how would you prove it outside of a gross violation? If you're shooting THROUGH area terrain and TFG (love it!) pulls the "they don't have cover" card, you've got him dead to rights.

But what if he's just shaving his opinion in his favor constantly? Could go one way, could go the other, he ALWAYS gives himself the benefit of the doubt. Is THAT cheating?

I also agree that the Sportsmanship score is your only recourse here, as well as the fact that it's of limited value, because TFG is going to use THAT too, most likely.

Yet another reason to lament the passing of Dakka the store. This stuff almost NEVER happened there. It was a genuinely fun group to play (usually in the 30 to 40 player range for big tournaments), and the one or two A-Holes were known-quantities.

Stelek: I have to say that your gaming environment is not one in which I would enjoy playing. But that's the great thing about wargaming. It's big enough for everyone to fit in somewhere.

PP definitely does a better job of writing tighter rules, and their current tournament scene IS more vibrant and energetic.

Of course, GW's was much more vibrant and energetic when it first started also.

And that's all I'll say about that.

I'm just going to go back to my original sentiment: If you're shooting through area terrain and you try to tell me my guys don't have cover, I'm going to take a break from the table for a moment and show you some of the cool moves I've been learning with my MMA instructor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350948.page GMT
On the other hand, I would LOVE to see a fully painted army for the game. That would be truly awesome! I'd rather gouge my own eyes out with a rusty spoon though than paint them all myself!

Liked the "!when wives attack" segment again. This is a great new angle on gaming and very welcome. I just keep thinking how lucky you guys are having wives who at least appreciate [i]something[/i] about geek culture.. such as sci-fi in general. My own beloved can't abide any of it. Mind you, I can't stand her taste in books and films either (Jane Austen and Mama Mia are current faves :(), so we just have to find other things to have in common!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/350966.page GMT
Eh, never mind.

Let's just say I feel your pain.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351027.page GMT
Listening to this review of Hordes made me extremely puzzled as to why people feel it necessary to compare PP games to GW games. They both sound great, but to me seem totally different games.

I don't just mean different in rules/models/etc., but as fundamentally different as say, a RTS game like Dawn of War from a First Person Shooter like Halo.

I played my first game of Hordesmachine the other day, and while I enjoyed it, the experience to me seemed like a cross between playing a hand of Magic the Gathering and my regulard D&D game.

I did ok, got a feel for the game and can see it being really fun, but it seems like it will require a totally different approach to gaming than a GW game, and provide a very different experience.

I guess this is just a long winded way of saying that I'm mystified by the comparison/competition between the two, as aside from the fact that they are both miniature games competing for hobby dollars, they seem like apples and oranges.

Anyways, I'm actually pretty excited about the prospect of using Hordesmachine as a "gateway drug" (er. game) to get several people I know who roleplay and play Magic into miniature gaming. (Like my wife.) The buffing and synergy of the spells seems very magic like, and the individual movement, flanking/raised ground bonuses and the like actually seem very similar to D&D, so there's another tie-in there. It's probably a long shot, but I think it's worth a try.

Craig - Howard Stern? Ouch.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351135.page GMT
freaking awesome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351317.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351317.page GMT
Will give the Civ Rev a go when my xbox is back from the hole UPS lost it in on the way to repair.

Beautifully detailed reviews as always. A pleasure to listen to.

Cheers

Apone]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/351326.page GMT
Did you guys include some sort of mind probe in the Mystery of the Abbey box you sent me?

Just before starting your podcast, I listened to the most recent Vintage Horror Radio podcast that had a reading of M.R. James short horror story "Number 13". & what's one of the 1st things on your show? Geekly McNerdigan going on about Triskaidekaphobia. (http://www.vintagehorror.com/, great show, recommend it).

Then I continue to listen as I scan The Miniatures Page. Within seconds of responding to a thread about "What songs need More Cowbell?", & giving my answer of Carmina Burana, the intro to the Painted Fig ad comes on, & yes, it starts with Carmina Burana. At this point, I'm turning the show off before it starts predicting my future (& I'm required to ramble for a minute about some incoherent gaming topic ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352477.page GMT
Btw is that really how americans pronounce cavalry. To me it sounds a lot like calvary which is a totally different thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352524.page GMT
In fact, at one point one of our listeners (Nils, I believe, who posted above, in a troubled state of mind, clearly, under the handle "Black Cavalier") listed a series of words that were not created by the D6G, but rather mis-pronounced or butchered. I was very happy to note that not a single example was from me. (Not that I'm perfect, mind you, but these two yahoos see malapropisms as a hobby).

Most Americans, even if they don't know that Calvary was where Jesus was crucified, do know that it isn't how you refer to those chappies who ride the big burly animals into battle.

Our educational system is a mess, but it's not THAT bad!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352578.page GMT IG transport:

"And for those of us with a classical education it's pronounced Ki-mere-ra"

I was also a little pleased that you read out my name in the iTunes reviews bit, cos I'm sad like that.

Also, if you could ever get your hands on a copy, I'd love to hear a review of Forgeworld's Aeronautica Imperialis. Though it's pricey unless you can rangle a copy from someone local.

Thanks again guys for all your great work!

Apone]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352709.page GMT (http://www.vintagehorror.com/, great show, recommend it).
[/quote]

Hey Nils, thanks for the link! Now I have something to listen to for hours in front of my work computer once my biweekly Monday fix is over. :(

BTW, your quiz was a riot. Started writing a poem yet for the next contest?

I'm thinking there's some possibilities for some good dirty limericks about Iron Kingdoms dragons. After all, Everblight makes his minions out of parts of his body, and most good limericks have a body part or two in there. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/352991.page GMT
Other non-gaming podcasts along the same lines are The Cthulhu Podcast (http://cthulhupodcast.co.uk/), Decoder Ring Theatre (www.decoderringtheatre.com), Dimension X (iTunes), & Wormwood (www.wormwoodshow.com)

I don't play Warmachine or Hordes, so the new contest prizes wouldn't be of much use to me other than to resell on EBay. & I'm much more of an obsessive, "attention to minute detail" kind of guy, than one that can actually be creative. So, this new contest isn't quite my style.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/353234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/353234.page GMT
lmao. "cavarly"

But seriously, you guys are the best podcast out there in any genre. The little qwerks are what makes you guys so much fun.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/353428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/353428.page GMT
Other non-gaming podcasts along the same lines are The Cthulhu Podcast (http://cthulhupodcast.co.uk/), Decoder Ring Theatre (www.decoderringtheatre.com), Dimension X (iTunes), & Wormwood (www.wormwoodshow.com).[/quote]

Thanks. Anything to pass the time at work helps, and the serial drama is actual pretty fun.

[quote=kingcaboose]
But seriously, you guys are the best podcast out there in any genre. The little qwerks are what makes you guys so much fun.
[/quote]

True! Although I appreciate that the game content is so very high. The quirks and side-notes are all thrown in to a very well ordered agenda of gaming topics. Some other podcasts I've been following have lost my interest as they ratio of gaming content to chat has dropped. D6G, on the other hand, remains content-laden.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/354075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/354075.page GMT
The PP demos of Monsterpocalypse were rife with problems because the rules weren't available to the guys running them until the night before, so it's hard to judge game play when you know the rules better than the guy giving the demo (not his fault, I had a 3 hour plane ride in which to pour over the little rules booklet). But we've got enough (barely) to play test, and we'll be letting you know how it is soon.

Not only that, but the game companies were VERY generous with gifts for you all, and we're going to be running NON-STOP contests offering ALL KINDS of prizes.

So keep listening, yall, cuz you ain't seen nothin' yet!

Happy Gaming!

~Craig]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/355789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/355789.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357206.page GMT
I finally finished listening to your minute this episode and it compelled me to write.

I know that the point of your minute was really to bring up the philosophical differences between playing by the 'letter' vs. the 'spirit' of the rules, but I think you chose a very poor example since the rule you referenced does not exist as you say it does, therefore the 'as written' concept is not valid.

What concerns me is that there are some people who don't read the rules themselves and just rely on others to teach them the game and these type of people may listen to the podcast and think because they heard someone else (you) mention it, that is how the rules actually work.


So to clarify: The rules in 5th edition 40K [b]do not[/b] allow one player to declare that they don't think their opponent's unit is in cover and thereby force him to take his cover save at -1.

What the rules [b]actually[/b] say is:

[i]"In situations where it's not obvious whether a unit is in cover or not, the normal solution is to strictly apply the majority rule above, and count how many models are in cover from the point of view of each of the firing models in range. As this process might prove to be rather time-consuming, for a faster (albeit less precise) solution, the players may agree to treat these units as in cover, but with a cover save of one less than normal (for example a 5+ save if partially in cover behind a building or another unit, which normally would offer a 4+ save)."[/i]


As you can see, [b]both[/b] players must agree in order to use the '-1' cover save rule. If both players do not agree, then the slower method of checking LOS from each firing model is used to determine if at least half of the target enemy models are 'in cover' from the majority of the firers.

So the only thing one player can do is force the game to move at a slower pace by figuring out precisely whether the unit is in cover or not. Only if [b]both[/b] players agree do they apply the '-1' rule and move on with the game.


Please, please, please, please make an 'on-air' correction in an upcoming episode. I would really hate to hear about anyone trying to use this 'tactic' because they heard about it from the D6G when it [b]is not an actual rule[/b].



Besides that, great episode as always!!!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357229.page GMT
~Craig]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/357243.page GMT
After listening, I am amazed at the quality and depth of content included. You all continue to impress me with your material, and you are IMHO the best gaming podcast out there. The depth of your reviews and the breadth of material is really top notch. Nicely done!

Perhaps you might consider breaking these longer casts into parts? A-la episodes 1 and 4 perhaps?

One final comment as well. We the listeners understand that Craig does not like PP and their games. We get it. Please, stop kicking the horse, it is long since dead.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358174.page GMT
Not sure about the last comment though. Am I making too much of it? Are they? Somewhere along the line, I think you may have also gotten the wrong impression. I DON’T hate PP, that’s the point. I LOVE the game system behind WM/H, and I think, as a company, PP is one of the best gaming companies out there, for reasons I’ve given time and time again.

I just don’t like the way the power progression in their main game systems inordinately rewards the obsessed to the complete destruction of the dilettante. In my opinion, it’s a system that you MUST be obsessed with to do well, because every few months the entire game system changes.

I don’t hate it at all.

Sorry if you feel that’s a horse that’s been beaten till the dust stops rising, but I’d have to say it deserved one more good swat if you came away thinking I hate all things PP.

And after spending an hour and a half with Matt Wilson at GenCon (watch for the interview in an upcoming episode), I appreciate the company, and the man behind the company, even more.

Anyway, sorry for the frustration. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for listening, and Happy Gaming!

~Craig
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358199.page GMT GW is one of the main draws of the show for me.

I'm also fond of hearing Russ's grudging admissions that 5th edition is very fun and playable, but that's just me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358221.page GMT PP, that’s the point. I LOVE the game system behind WM/H, and I think, as a company, PP is one of the best gaming companies out there, for reasons I’ve given time and time again.

I just don’t like the way the power progression in their main game systems inordinately rewards the obsessed to the complete destruction of the dilettante. In my opinion, it’s a system that you MUST be obsessed with to do well, because every few months the entire game system changes.

I don’t hate it at all.

Sorry if you feel that’s a horse that’s been beaten till the dust stops rising, but I’d have to say it deserved one more good swat if you came away thinking I hate all things PP.

And after spending an hour and a half with Matt Wilson at GenCon (watch for the interview in an upcoming episode), I appreciate the company, and the man behind the company, even more.

Anyway, sorry for the frustration. Thanks for the kind words. Thanks for listening, and Happy Gaming!

~Craig
[/quote]
It very well may be a mistaken impression on my part, and I'll try to listen a little more open-minded in the future.

To further clarify my impression, it almost seems as if there is a different "tone" to the discussions between the three of you when PP comes up. The most recent episode seemed to capture it perfectly - the overall Hordes review progressed fine, but it seemed like things got a little "heated" during the final assigning of scores, something that did not happen during the Battlelore review for example.

Again, perhaps it is me, and I'll try to be more receptive in the future. Valhallan take a different perspective than mine, so I may well be the odd man out. Not the first time for that!

I even regret mentioning it, because I do not want it to take away from my praise of your show. I really cannot speak highly enough about you. I've been enthusiastically recommending your show and enjoy it from start to finish. Especially Rapid Fire. Please keep up the great work and know that it is enjoyed and appreciated.

Munch
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The episode was great, as usual. I sold all my Warmachine stuff a while ago for the same reasons that Craig seems to not like the game. Too many gotchas and over-powered units and significant power-creep. I am tempted into Hordes for the reason that it seems to be lighter on that than WM and the models are a lot, lot better. I may have to pick up a small force so I can play a few Hordes games... Or I can just start AT-43...

Also, my fiance loves the When Wives Attack so keep them coming.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358411.page GMT
Either way, your opinions are totally valid, and welcomed in the spirit in which they were intended.

Thanks for spreading the word. We could use more of that, too, so get out there, ya'll!

In an interesting side-note for this thread, we at the D6G got our first press release from Fantasy Flight today (the joys of networking) only slightly tainted by the fact that they made the announcment on their website as well:

Days of Wonder has sold all of the rights, properties, and merchandise pertaining to the BattleLore title to Fantasy Flight for future production and expansion, including a deal with the original designer, Mr. Borg (resistance is futile), to work with FFG in these expansions.

Great news, for those of us at GenCon that expressed concern for the rather anemic showing of DOW this year.

Anyway, thank you all for your kind words. Despite Russ' vacation Raef and I are trying to put together a little mini-show for this week, and I promise there will be no PP ambivalence what so ever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/358608.page GMT PP booth & kept an eye peeled for you guys to no avail!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/359499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/359499.page GMT
Just FYI, a better example is over-guessing in Warhammer Fantasy. Your opponent has a cannon and declares that he is going to fire at your Wood Elf Archers in the forest. However, you have a treeman some ways behind the forest and out of LOS of the cannon and so your opponent deliberately "over-guesses" to cause the cannonball to sail over the Archers and hit the Treeman out of line of sight. I've had this debate with Mauleed. I think it 's akin to cheating. You declared a target falsely. But the rules allow it as you pick a target, declare a range, measure range, etc. These players say, "If you line yourself up that way, that was a mistake and I'm going to punish it.", even if I believe that they are going against the Spirit of the rules.

So what would I do? Would I return the favor and use loopholes or other stretches back at him? Well, doing so would basically make me a hypocrite.

What I can do is not be as forgiving of all the little mistakes we all make during a Warhammer game. "Oh, you forgot to declare a charge with that unit? Sorry, you are now moving chargers so you aren't allowed to do that." "Can you re-measure that wheel? It looks to me like you were off by 1/4"." Normally, I'm pretty laid back. You forgot to declare a charge, no problem, we all do. Archers range too close to call, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You start being a WAAC player to me, those courtesies go away.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/359680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/359680.page GMT What I can do is not be as forgiving of all the little mistakes we all make during a Warhammer game. [/quote]

Sounds fair enough. Cutthroat Warhammer...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360036.page GMT
And when two players /think/ they do know the spirit, more often than not, the designers disagree anyway & now you're just using pointless house rules.

If it's legal, it's legal. The overguessing example is a good one because it's a nice instance of where the "spirit" is not the spirit, or the rules. It's just a made-up house rule with no basis in anything besides player X being mad that he positioned poorly. It's this "hoho good chap, let's be sporting, wot" kind of crap that needs to die already.

The rules are rules. They have no spirit. They tell you what you can or can't do. It's like the scoring force comp garbage some games still try to cling to. If I can LEGALLY take this & that unit in this or that number, it's legal, it's following the rules as designed, & it's FAIR & sporting.

Too many people expect others to play using a handicap & to take it easy on them & not make armies that might not be easy to beat the first try, or to not kill their valuable units. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360504.page GMT
Also, saying that something is fair because it is in the rules assumes the rules are perfectly fair and balanced to begin with. Since the rules are never perfectly fair and balanced (in any gaming system), that argument is a stretch.

Ozymandias, King of Kings]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360514.page GMT
No "lying" was done. Did he TARGET a unit he's not allowed to? Then he followed the rules, & it's a lie to pretend otherwise. If your level of sportsmanship or enjoyment changes based on if they follow the rules in the books vs. your totally arbitrary & broken backseat-driver version that exists from moment to moment in your head (and nowhere else)...you are the one with the problem.

If you think your version of what's fair is somehow better than what the rules allow, you need to check that ego at the door & rethink the whole idea of having rulebooks. If the rules allow it, it's a legal army & you're a liar & a cheater if you change your gameplay or sportsmanship because you decided it's too competitive for you to handle or that tactics that are legal, allowed, & let's face it, forseen long before it ever got to your eyes...sad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/360524.page GMT
By the way, I never said anything about taking an army that is too competitive or tactics that are too good. What I brought up is a clear loophole in the rules as it lets you target a unit that otherwise you could not. Also, I said I would allow the player to do so, but I do believe that the player is knowingly lying about his "original target" and exploiting that loophole. To claim otherwise is disingenuous.

Call it sad, call it Moral High ground, or whatever. I'm a nice guy but if you’re an A-hole, I'm real good at being an A-hole too.

Ozymandias, King of Kings
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/361035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/361035.page GMT Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/361593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/361593.page GMT
If you think the rules developers "forsee" all the possible tactics and combos, you're deluded. If they did, we wouldn't need FAQs. The devs aren't perfect, and as a result, the rules aren't perfect. Some measure of common sense and familiarity with the gaming "language" is required to read beyond RAW and see what the devs were actually trying to say and how they think the game should be played. And seasoned players have gotten very good at it. Just look at yakface's FAQs which were actually adopted by GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/362569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/362569.page GMT Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com[/quote]

See, now I have to win the lottery so I can buy that Sultan Game Table. If I hadn't listened to the pod cast, I could be blissfully ignorant of the entire thing! Damn you Craig and Hollywood! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363042.page GMT Gen Con preview episode of D6G has been posted.

Craig and Raef give some initial feedback on their Gen Con adventures.

web site: www.TheD6Generation.com[/quote]

See, now I have to win the lottery so I can buy that Sultan Game Table. If I hadn't listened to the pod cast, I could be blissfully ignorant of the entire thing! Damn you Craig and Hollywood! [/quote]

For a link to "The Sultan"

http://www.geekchichq.com/The_Sultan_.html

My fav pick is the one with food in it. I like how a person who is going to drop nearly $10k on a gaming table still enjoys a good bowl of Mac & Cheese with his gaming. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363070.page GMT
As for Mac and Cheese, that stuff has gone [url=http://www.smacnyc.com/]upscale[/url]. The wife reports that it is to die for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363107.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363140.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363204.page GMT
Apparently, we weren't the first ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/363637.page GMT
As for the whole TLOS issue.... man there are some messed up people out there! My gaming buddies are my friends first and opponents second! I am NOT going to fall out with my friend over a technicality of a game. Sure we all no That Guy and also the ultra-technical nature of tournament play. But guys... its a game with plastic dollies and dice... If you lose it, it doesn't mean a thing. NO ONE is impressed with people who would rather win games than make friends.

I appreciate that this attitude isn't shared by everyone, and it goes a long way to explaining why I have only been to one gaming tournament in my entire life and will never go to anouther... but seriously. All you do if you seriously argue over a rule (as opposed to the bood natured female-dogging and joshing that happens between friends) is demonstrate to the entire world what a jerk you are....

On the other hand, I do like rules clarity. Even for beer-and-pretzel gaming. I want to know in any given situation as much as possible what we are supposed to do - to a) save time over trying to decide fairly in an ad hoc way, and b) so as not to risk anyone feeling someone cheated somewhere. Sure "d6 it" works to an extent, but I like to try to win fairly rather than win or lose a point on a simple toss of a coin because a rule was unclear.

To that extent I think 5th edition is a monumental step forwards for 40k (which I couldn't bring myself to play in 4th ed). There are still some ambiguities in the rules but as Yakface points out, TLOS isn't really among them. I have played LotR and LotOW for years with TLOS rules, and never, ever had a single problem. Sure it may slow things up in a tournament, but frankly, I couldn't give a damn about tournaments. Personally I think tournament play is a curse on gaming, and that it should be left to sort out its own problems...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/364921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/364921.page GMT TLOS with that raised lip, and I bet you can't reach the middle while sitting down, so no good for roleplaying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/366824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/215968/366824.page GMT