http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/18.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Overall Standings; there were 20 players in total. 3 Total Ork players.

1st: Mech Orks 60+ points (can't remember exact total)
2nd: Mech Orks 52 points
2nd/3rd: Mech Space Wolves 52 points
4th: Mech Orks 51 points

I came in 4th, but the Space Wolves player advised he absolutely was not going to make it to the next round, so the ticket was deferred to me by the TO.

As a caveat: The GW rep advised the local TO that Deff Rollas did work against vehicles. 1st place Orks had 3 Deff Rollas, 2nd place Orks had 0 Deff Rollas and 4th place Orks had 1 Deff Rolla. We did not know this until the morning of the event. But, at least we know this for the next round as round 2 is being held at the same location.

To my wife's amusement (not really), I've now got another tourney scheduled for August.

By no means definitive proof of how Orks stand in the grand scheme, but locally, they do pretty well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832834.page GMT

*insert Dashofpepper's standard cut and paste, 'how to use orks' speech*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832950.page GMT GW rule guy.. HE ruled that you cannot use deff rollas against vehicles.. someone calls GW and now you can?

Adepticon FAQ says you cant either..

lol

Better than my store I suppose having judges who havent played since 3rd edition]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/832986.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833029.page GMT http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833036.page GMT
Hay 'sup.[/quote]

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833073.page GMT GW have a deffrolla sprue coming out? Nothing like making it useful against vehicles to sell a few more units...

First place with Mech orks at the prelims yesterday by the way. 2 massacres and a minor victory. Orks are definitley NOT 3rd tier]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833087.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833105.page GMT
Hay 'sup.[/quote]

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.[/quote]


I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833123.page GMT
Cause thats pretty absurd that it was allowed

(I suspect John was at home since it was saturday and the janitor picked up the phone)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833126.page GMT
This problem is largely nullified if they can sit safe inside their transports (that should have a 4+ cover save) and plop d6 S10 hits everywhere.

There's a big difference between No Deffrolla Orks and Deffrolla Orks.

If I can get a definitive answer on whether or not Deffrollas will be allowed, I will certainly be taking Mech Orks to the semifinals.


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[quote=mrdabba][quote=Davicus][quote=Frank Fugger]http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

Hay 'sup.[/quote]

Save that for yourself. Great site for people who excel in paper theory. We prove the strength of orks on the table.[/quote]


I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players. [/quote]

That's not true in the least. Love Stelek or hate Stelek, the vast majority of his fundamental advice is sound. It's also pretty obvious (to me, at least) that he plays quite frequently.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833127.page GMT
This problem is largely nullified if they can sit safe inside their transports (that should have a 4+ cover save) and plop d6 S10 hits everywhere.

There's a big difference between No Deffrolla Orks and Deffrolla Orks.

If I can get a definitive answer on whether or not Deffrollas will be allowed, I will certainly be taking Mech Orks to the semifinals.

[/quote]

Well they do have boarding planks. But that will leave whatever vehicle they are on in melta range very easily.

I agree and this ruling will make a huge impact on what we see for the second round.

Anyone wanna trade some orks for my necron army? lol
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833155.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833158.page GMT TO called their GW rep this past week and asked about the ruling in regards to the Ard Boyz tourney. He was advised it was allowed, so that is what the TO based the ruling on. As players, we found out the morning of the tourney. No one really built a list around Deff Rolla spam (4-6 Battlewagons w/ Deff Rollas for example).

I agree it is a contested issue and I based my army on it not affecting vehicles. My list had one b/c I used my Necronomicon list and added extra stuff to make up the point difference. The Necro does not allow which is why I only had one rather than three in my army.

However, 2 of the top 4 placed finishers did not rely on Deff Rollas. Second place didn't have a single one.

What the three players did have in common was multiple Battlewagons, Big Mek w/ KFF and Ghazghkull Thraka.

For the next round, I'm expecting to see more Deff Rollas at this location.

Regarding my usage of the Deff Rolla, it was very hit or miss (more misses really):

Game 1: Successfully destroyed a Razorback and Venerable Dreadnought.

Game 2: Nothing. Failed to penetrate a Land Raider.

Game 3: Nothing. Battlewagon destroyed at mid field.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833169.page GMT
yep that'll do it

/endsarcasm


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[quote=Sarigar]

What the three players did have in common was multiple Battlewagons, Big Mek w/ KFF and Ghazghkull Thraka.

[/quote]

yep that seems to be the pattern everyone was seeing. Add in trukk mobs/kans/deffkoptas/lootas/burnas to flavor. The ork player at our location ran somethign like:

2x loota's in wagons

ghazzy and nobs in a wagon

KFF mek

shootas in a wagon

meganobz in a trukk

2 trukk squads.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833170.page GMT GW has a interesting track record when it comes to gray rules issues. Call them twice in the same day, and get two answers. As for adepticon saying something does or does not work: it is not an official GW event, and the faq was longer than the rule book. Treat it as a homebrew rule set used for that tourney. Because it is.

I hadn't heard there was an official rules guy for GW. If there is, then GW needs to post his rulings as official FAQs. If it is not in writing on the easily accessed FAQ, the rules books, then it is not official. Calling up GW for a ruling is the same as rolling a dice IMHO. Rolling to see which rep is on the phone.

Personally I don't see an issue with deffrollas being over the top if they hit vehicles. If somebody with an important tank is stupid enough to be withing 13 inches of a battle wagon that isn't immobile, then they deserve what is coming. How you not run away from a tank that only has an one inch movement advantage? How do you not figure out how to get a side shot on the weak armor on the side?

Ork battlewagon spam is a solid list, but like all unbalanced lists (almost all competitive orks are unbalanced lists) can be countered by smart play, and a flexible list. When Mech orks get 3 of the top 4 at a 20 player tourney, I ask myself what the other people where playing. Orks are good, in fact define the bottom of the competitive part of this game. They are a the "you must be this tall to enter the ride" marker. Does this make them tier 1? No, they get destroyed by too many lists to be that. They are also too weak against armor, which is popular in the 5th ed meta game. Are they tier 3? no that tier is for armies that aren't competitive at all. (as in they can't beat orks, or enough or enough of the armies that beat orks.) This puts orks on tier 2, which makes them a solid choice at an event. They are obviously tier 1 when their bad match ups don't show in enough numbers.

I happen to play orks, but I'm no fan boy. I know what they can and can't do. What they can't do is beat mechanized lists that actually use their mobility, or beat a bike army without resorting to KoS type lists. Nothing wrong with having a weakness, it just happens to be a weakness that is popular right now. Orks are victims of their own popularity. That and the awful changes to how fearless and combat resolution works. I have seen too many times where a squad of enemy is almost wiped out, but the orks lose a quarter of a unit to combat resolution. 20 boy squads will often lose their fearless after the combat res wounds are finished. Its one of the reasons I run throw away truk boyz, or no boyz at all. Grots are fine for scoring purposes, and there is other options in the book for killing ability. Sometimes you can even make them scoring.

As for paper theory vs on the table: in paper both players make few if any mistakes. In reality, orks are vicious at punishing mistakes, so win more than their on paper analysis should allow them. If both players play a flawless game, or the ork player makes more mistakes, the other army (assuming it is a real one, not a fluff army) should win. I have yet to see a flawless game, but I have seen many games where my or other people's orks crush the other side for making a serious error. I also have played/seen games where the orks had almost no chance from the start. Bad match ups are bad match ups.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833199.page GMT
[quote=mrdabba]I agree his lists are all theory and no gaming. he even admits that the local games he does play is against bad players. some of the lists on that site are decent. Most are spam lists that would win vs noobs not experienced players. [/quote]

It's a list of results from various 'Ard Boyz meets from around the US. Hardly "paper theory". A cursory glance down the list should tell you two things:

1) Orks aren't doing as well all over the place as the likes of IG, MechDar and Salamanders.
2) A lot of people are bringing shoddy lists to their meets.

Interpret that how you will.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833226.page GMT GW fails at GTs this year (heck its bigger than the non-baltimore ones anyway)

They also put A LOT of effort into the FAQs which is something that cannot be said of GW.. I firmly believe that all tournaments should use a UNIFIED Faq that constantly updates "grey areas"

Its sad that GW cant do this for the community and therefore you gotta take it into your own hands ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833276.page GMT Faq that constantly updates "grey areas" [/quote]

Signed. The number of problems they'd solve at a stroke by doing this is incredible; there's really no good reason they haven't, either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833277.page GMT
It's going to be Frank vs the pro-ork crew going back and forth quoting each other's unintelligible non-logic, but now we're going to have a bunch of whiners b*tching about the deffrolla ruling on top of everything else.

Personally, I think orks *are* competitive, they are *not* tier 3, but arrogant, know-it-alls will continue to insist on their perspective no matter what you tell them.

OT: Re, deffrollas: (since it's fun to weigh in)... besides the upcoming new kit, (which gives GW an incentive to rule in orks favor regardless), I've always felt that they should work for a number of reasons, but the strongest intent-based argument is a quote from the codex:

[quote]Another type of Battlewagon is the Kursha...these lumbering behemoths can crush the enemy into a bloody paste with their massive spiked deff rollas...A kursha's driver will spend much of the battle steamrolling enemy infantry and *light vehicles*, cackling maniacally all the while. [/quote]

Not to mention the part in the guard book about a deffrolla taking the top off of Pask's tank. If that isn't an indication of the intent that they work against vehicles, I don't know what it.

Edit: I'm not sure mech orks are an unbalanced list. You've got anti-horde infantry, anti-TEq (in the nobs), speed, armour, excellent protection via the KFF, and limited but significant anti-armour. Boarding planks are very effective if you get close. Granted, my rolling was ridiculous, but I had success against khornatedaemon's mech sallies - if I used my deffkoptas correctly, my mech orks would have taken a major victory against him and even with average rolling I still woud probably taken out both of his redeemers.

The fact that they work against tanks by RAW is beside the point. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833300.page GMT
It's going to be Frank vs the pro-ork crew going back and forth quoting each other's unintelligible non-logic, but now we're going to have a bunch of whiners b*tching about the deffrolla ruling on top of everything else. [/quote]

So far you're the only one to bring up anything of the sort. It's been quite civil up til your post, and I hope it keeps going.

Furthermore, nobody's "b*tching" about the Deffrolla. Regardless whether you believe it works or not against vehicles, if it is allowed by the tournament organizers, then Orks suddenly have more options for destroying vehicles than they did before.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833332.page GMT
Come now, my logic is simple; Orks are a starter army, and are the button-basher's choice. They're competetive in areas where people play silly army lists (Mech Space Wolves? Seriously?); everywhere else they get their eye wiped. The stupid thing is that Ork players here KNOW that's the case. They KNOW they're playing an army list any gimp could use to table a cruddy opponent, yet for some reason they get defensive whenever you point it out to them. Statements like "orks are vicious at punishing mistakes, so win more than their on paper analysis should allow them" tell you all you need to know about the Codex; it's simplistic, unreliable and falls flat on it's arse when there are no opponent failures to take advantage of.

And for the record, I don't see why Deffrollas [u]shouldn't[/u] work against vehicles.



Let's face it, they need to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833346.page GMT
@ dumbuket: In your previous thread, I advised I would post up how my Orks fared in the month of July. I was attending the Ard Boyz, Necronomicon and an RTT. I figured I'd see how the army fared in North Carolina and Florida and in various fields in regards to Battle Points, Army Composition, Sportsmanship and Painting. By no means am I the final authority, but I challenged the idea that Orks are not competitive in a tourney enviornment. Locally, Orks are one of the more competitive armies being played, despite popular internet opinion. No need to be regretful. If you don't want to read it, just don't enter the thread. The last one did spiral out of control by a couple of posters. So far, this has not.

I went 2-0-1 yesterday and placed 4th. My tie was against the 2nd place Space Wolf player. My 2nd game was against Vanilla Marines and 3rd game against a 4 Land Raider Demonhunter army. I managed to kill 2 Land Raiders and outplay my opponent in regards to the mission.

One thing I can say is locally, Nob Bikers are finished. I took my 1850 Necro list and added Nob Bikers and Snikrot/Kommandos to make up the points difference. The Nob Bikers got punched in the teeth every game. Sadly, they will be relegated to looking cool on a shelf. Locals have faced them enough and know how to deal with them.

Ghaz, Nobz in Battlewagons and Mekboy w/ KFF as the lychpin of an Ork army was a bit trickier for opponents. 3 of the 4 Ork players utelized this basic construction and did well.

Will they do well in the Ard Boyz 2nd round? Hard to tell. In all honesty, if I had been matched up against one the IG players in the 2nd scenario, I'd have probably lost. He was able to sit back and absolutely punish his opponent with shooting. I may not have even been able to reach his armored gunline.

From personal experience, I just don't see the Ork codex as an unplayable tourney army. Is it the flavor of the month... no. Folks will flock to the new codex and lots of new armies pop up. However, given time, many will sell off, trade or shelve the flavor of the month and move on to something else.

I really enjoy the army and still fare pretty well with them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833387.page GMT KFF Mek, warboss, 10 Nobz in trukk, 12 regular bikes, 15 lootas, near full squad of kommandos with snikrot.

Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, surrendered to me before the game started.

2nd place was Orks as well, something along the lines of 2x battlewagon, 10 nobz in trukk, 5x trukk o' boyz, 10 regular bikes, 12 lootas.

Expect a rougher time in round 2, but will definitely be assembling the Battlewagon my winnings covered for next time if the deff rolla gets a ruling.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833420.page GMT Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, [b]surrendered to me before the game started[/b]. [/quote]

WTF? That is grossly unfair to all the other players.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833434.page GMT Scored massacre round 1, major victory round 2, round 3 opponent was stomped by my round 2 opponent first round, [b]surrendered to me before the game started[/b]. [/quote]

WTF? That is grossly unfair to all the other players.[/quote]
Unfortunately, we had a small turnout and had already done the math. Unless he scored 6 more points off of me (with Tyranids) than the other Ork player scored on his opponent, the results couldn't change between 2nd and 3rd. And the other Ork player needed to outscore me by 19 points in round 3 to tie for 1st. Anyone and everyone potentially affected was consulted before we allowed the game to be tossed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833442.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833447.page GMT
I talk people out of conceding because Id like to play

[quote=Sarigar]Well, I posted the results over on Stelek's blog. He pretty much called me a liar and cheat. I then tried to respond, and suddenly, there is an error in trying to post. Classy move on his part.[/quote]

Stelek isnt exactly known for his ability to take disagreement without resorting to flipping out :p His advice isnt bad but I dont understand why he thinks orks are bad.. Tournaments are about MATCH UPS not god list vs god list..
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833507.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833551.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833559.page GMT
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833795.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/833821.page GMT inq give the largest pool to meta game with. Its no wonder that type of army is so strong in the meta. Dark eldar is another army that is pretty good at 5th ed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834086.page GMT CCG. The "jank" decks as they were called often won tournaments cause the "power decks" werent prepared for them

its amazing how one random card can mess them up

I think this is why you see armies like necrons doing something.. Granted its still a ton of IG and Orks but thats how WFB is too (replace IG with demons and orks with dark elves)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834428.page GMT IG to daemons in fantasy?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/834739.page GMT
God I hate this board sometimes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835014.page GMT
[b]God I hate this board sometimes.[/b][/quote]

QFT. Not only are some posters stunningly and willingly obtuse, but seemingly lacking in humor as well.

Oh well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835130.page GMT TO informed us that Deff Rollas were ok. To be fair, I *was* frothing at the teeth in hopes that they would fly around the table smacking into vehicles and causing mass ruination. In practice, it didn't happen.

Round 1: I faced mechanized IG. I lost one Battlewagon turn 1, and between my remaining two, only one got to smack into a tank, causing 3 hits, 1 glance, and a weapon destroyed result.

Round 2: I played Nidzilla...no vehicles there.

Round 3: I played against mechanized orks. Our vehicles never really got close to each other. Everyone jumped out and had carnage somewhat in the middle.

3 Deffrollas = 75 points. Total value over 3 games....one weapon destroyed. They're not wonderbread.
-------------------------------------
Because of GWs ruling on competition, I also participated in a second quarterfinal round, making quite the grueling weekend - Deff Rollas were not allowed, and despite my boarding planks and grabbin' klaws, I still didn't get to use them. I still took first place.

Round 1 (Scenario 3): I played against some weird Eldar. Almost all of his eldar were STR5 T6, and a couple of wraithguard monstrous creatures in there, and some howling banshees on foot, along with some infiltrating pathfinders and other nasty stuff. Capture and Control. He turtled, and attempted to slow play. Took 45 minutes to deploy his eldar. 2h 15m into the game, we're at the bottom of turn 2. The TO let us have a turn 3 because I complained. His turn 3 deep strike attempt to contest the objective on my half of the board scattered 8" away and failed, and I sent a squad of trukk boyz over to contest his; I had more killpoints and got a massacre. No vehicles, so no chance to do anything with Deff Rollas, boarding planks, or grabbin' klaws.

Round 2 (Scenario 1): I played against Tyranids: No vehicles there.

Round 3 (Scenario 2): I played against mechvet IG. Dawn of War, and he won the roll off, which is the absolute worst scenario and worst draw to play against mechvets with. He went first, I stayed completely in DoW reserves. You would think all that firepower would annihilate a mechanized list, but math *does* have an impact here.

Lets presume he's shooting at me with with a STR10 weapon at a battlewagon. He has a 50% chance to hit. That hit has a 50% chance to at least glance. I have a 50% chance of passing a cover save. If it gets through, that glance/penetrate has a 50% chance to do anything that I care about. That STR10 shot now has a statistical 6.25% chance of actually stopping my wagon. I've said this elsewhere....but mechanized IG don't scare me. When I first read the threads about them they did, but having had a chance to play against them....not scary.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835134.page GMT
I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835599.page GMT
Some other posters: Keep the thread on-topic, please.

Thank you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/835828.page GMT
I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.[/quote]

In essence, math hammer with an escape clause; Ork players can only win b/c their opponents are clueless.

In reference to the mech Space Wolves: Mechanized Marines (of nearly any type) can be a competitive army. Never dismiss any army that you may not be familiar with. Folks did last year and 2 of our local players made it to the finals in Baltimore. Mech Blood Angels and pure Mech Sisters.

I believe some folks are not accounting for different playstyles in various regions of the country/world. After being able to play across the United States, I can definitely see variations in army lists as well as player skill level. I'm sure there are folks that are not very good 40k players and don't bring optimized army lists, but that has happened in every tournament, RTT, Indy, GT or otherwise. As you mentioned, this hasn't changed nor will it change in the forseeable future. Additionally, 40K is not really an optimized game system for tourneys. At the end of the day, I think with the right matchups, any codex in production has a chance to win any tourney, Ard Boyz or otherwise.

Besides, lets be frank about what the Ard Boyz is: an opportunity for GW to make money from folks who can buy more models to make for a 2500 point army they may not have been inclined to purchase otherwise. Call it whatever they want, I'll call a spade a spade. Not knocking them for it as it gave me the opportunity to enjoy my hobby.

Personally, I had 3 fun games with my greenskins. I most likely will bring them to the next round.

But, I've not played my Eldar in some time...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836287.page GMT
So rare to see that at a 40k event! =p ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836377.page GMT
I don't think that's what he's about at all; what he's essentially saying is, if competetive 40K became more competetive (i.e every player was running optimised lists and had a better overall understanding of the game), Orks wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they currently do purely because there's so much their army list can't cope with. The current trend is clueless people bringing sad lists to tournaments and consequently Ork players roll them (I'm still trying to work out how exactly you make mech Space Wolves...), and in that sort of setting trying to claim the Orks are a good Codex is like trying to claim Nikolai Valuev is the best heavyweight in the world. Which is a good analogy, since Valuev and the Ork Codex are both lumbering, clumsy beasts who rely on their freakish nature to overwhelm opponents rather than outclassing them, and who struggle to deal with anything or anyone that has the finesse to punish their simplicity and one-dimensionality.

All that said... it's important to keep in mind the "most important rule" in the BRB; 40K is only worth playing as long as you're enjoying it and everyone has fun. I'll admit that, in some of my ravings, I tend to lose sight of that. At the end of the day the "metagame", if you will, of people bringing whatever list they have to hand to a tourney and playing it the way they want to is NOT going to change, and in that environment the Ork Codex's pick-up-and-mongle style of play becomes viable. Wether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion; personally I'm not massively bothered, as long as whatever trends develop allow 40K to keep going.[/quote]

Maybe that's the way orks are supposed to be played. Whereas Eldar are a finely tipped rapier, orks are a meat cleaver. The list is designed to be smashmouth. There are guys out there that were winning GTs with the 3rd edition codex. That is saying something about the players considering what a turd that book was.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836417.page GMT
3 BS3 TL rokkits for 150 pts? yes please

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/836934.page GMT GTs as well as a guy from Birmingham Alabama. I'm not dropping names, because when that happens here their names usually get drug through the mud. There was also a guy from England that used a footslogging list to win one of the U.K. heats a few years back. I'll never say that the ork codex (the old one or the new one) is made of win. And I agree to a point with some of what Frank Fugger says about people getting wiped because they refuse to adapt their lists. But it's crazy to say that there is some kind of nationwide simultaneous fluke causing the ork army to be doing so well at the Ardboyz. The ork book is different from say the space marine codex. That's good. If all the races did the exact same thing, we might as well be playing checkers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837387.page GMT 40K is poor, and as such you can turn up to tournaments and win with pretty much any Codex.

The question is will that ever change? The answer is no, because it's a tabletop wargame and is a social activity rather than a proper competetive thing. It might change if competetive 40K ever becomes lucrative and tourney winners end up getting the sort of Fabulous Prizes that Smash TV! could only dream of handing out, but for some reaosn I don't see that occurring.

[quote=Sarigar]In essence, math hammer with an escape clause; Ork players can only win b/c their opponents are clueless. [/quote]

Preach it, brother

[quote]In reference to the mech Space Wolves: Mechanized Marines (of nearly any type) can be a competitive army. Never dismiss any army that you may not be familiar with.[/quote]

I'm familiar with Space Wolves; they're a concept army, the concept being "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE". You don't get lots of dice when you're trading in wounds for Rhinos, and they're too expensive to horde-up in a Black Templars stylee.

[quote]Folks did last year and 2 of our local players made it to the finals in Baltimore. Mech Blood Angels and pure Mech Sisters.[/quote]

... both of which drastically different beasts to mech Space Wolves in a large variety of ways. Give them enough Faith Points and Sisters will cause problems for anyone, and Mech Blangels are basically Rhino-Rush Marines with one Emo Assault Squad that Rends in CC.

[quote]I believe some folks are not accounting for different playstyles in various regions of the country/world. After being able to play across the United States, I can definitely see variations in army lists as well as player skill level. I'm sure there are folks that are not very good 40k players and don't bring optimized army lists, but that has happened in every tournament, RTT, Indy, GT or otherwise. As you mentioned, this hasn't changed nor will it change in the forseeable future. Additionally, 40K is not really an optimized game system for tourneys. At the end of the day, I think with the right matchups, any codex in production has a chance to win any tourney, Ard Boyz or otherwise.[/quote]

That's basically what I said, only slightly more couched in diplomacy. And it sort of ignores the thorny issue that Orks need the match-ups more than most other Dexes do; which, as we've already established, they'll continue to get until competetive 40K gets more competetive.

Which it won't, because it's a tabletop wargame.

[quote]Besides, lets be frank about what the Ard Boyz is: an opportunity for GW to make money from folks who can buy more models to make for a 2500 point army they may not have been inclined to purchase otherwise. Call it whatever they want, I'll call a spade a spade. Not knocking them for it as it gave me the opportunity to enjoy my hobby.

Personally, I had 3 fun games with my greenskins. I most likely will bring them to the next round.

But, I've not played my Eldar in some time...[/quote]

Don't cop out now; you went through the first round with the Orks, why not crack on and keep going?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837698.page GMT
2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins, and he still insists that Orks are not a strong dex. Nevermind all of the tourneys that they have won over the last year; nevermind that most reputable sites/players list Orks as one of the top 2 codexes; nevermind that he has no physical proof or statistics to back up his claim; Frank still insists that Orks are noobhammers - just because he doesn't like them.

I gotta respect a guy who sticks to his beliefs even though there is nothing backing him up...it shows that he has intestinal fortitude; he's the kind of guy that will never give in to peer pressure.

Now, as much as I resepct Frank for not giving up the ship, he is unfortunately wrong.

Statistics and tournaments over the past year have proven Orks to be strong. Claiming that they only win because other players are noobs is just insulting. In fact, it is far more insulting to every player who doesn't run Orks than it is to Ork players, especially with the ammount of RTTs, Ard Boys events, and GTs that Orks have won during the last year.

To say that the only way for a person to lose to Orks is by either having a poor list or by being a complete noob is a pretty stong statement, and all non-ork players who have ever lost to Orks should be offended by it.

Yes, Orks require little finesse to use. Some people find that distateful; however, others find it rather entertaining. The great thing about different codexes is that they allow you to play different types of armies.

Eldar are a razor; Orks are a sledgehammer. However, there is room for both of ends of the spectrum in 40k. Don't think that just because Orks aren't subtle that they are not capable. When properly applied, both brute force and finesse can be equally effective.

Personally, I find it refreshing that there is at least some variety left in 40k, since it has become ever increasingly more bland since the advent of 4th, when all the armies/chapters/craftwords/etc started to resemble each other more and more.

[i]*edited for typos[/i]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837807.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837826.page GMT
This reminds me of the state of air combat in WW2. Near the end of the war the Nazis soldiered on with largely outdated and inferior designs of planes punctuated with the occasional brilliant design like the Me262 and FW-190D. Despite all this, the most feared pilot in the Luftwaffe was Erich Hartmann... who flew a Bf-109. The plane was vile handling on the ground by all accounts and was not the most maneuverable thing in the air. What it did possess was an unprecedented power-weight ratio giving it superior climb and dive characteristics. Hartmann used this to his advantage by tailoring tactics to surprise attacks. Most pilots that he shot down didn't even know he was there until their planes were shot from around them. Hartmann achieved a still unbroken record of 352 kills, over 250 of which were fighter type aircraft. He used a second string fighter plane while doing so.

I am reminded of the words of Chuck Yeager... "It's not the plane, it's the pilot". They suit well here.

It's not the Codex... it's the player.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837896.page GMT
*looks around furtively*

Didn't mean to crack that joke, meant to make a serious observation here: I consider myself to be a finesse, razor type Ork player. How dare you impugn my razor sharp eldarish tactics with a sledgehammer comparison! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837910.page GMT
Well put.

I'm not sure why FF has chosen to take this position. Most Dakkites disagree with him, excpet for a few other's, in the vocal minority. I will say that I love the concept of Orks. I love the comical, random, no real sense of purpose, except to move forward and Bash em'. The fact thay they have a good codex and lots of plastic, is just icing, as I think I would play them either way. I agree that the insinuation that Orks are a Noob army is kind of insulting. I've been playing off and on for almost 10 years now.

By the way I love the sig!! ......edit..I mean your avatar!


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837920.page GMT
Are the Tyranids a strong Codex? What about Daemonhunters? I've seen a couple of 'Ard Boyz where those armies did well too, and I'm sure a lot of Necrons players have walked away with results in more than their share of tournaments over the years. There's actually a thread on Librarium Online where some bloke won a Brazilian GT playing a Necrons list.

Remind me again; which armies are supposedly alongside Orks in this... "tier 3" thing? Is it all of the above? It's all of the above, isn't it? So what, then, is the difference between these other Codexes that can, and indeed do, place well in heats and tournaments and the Orks, who win them?

[quote]Yes, Orks require little finesse to use. [/quote]

There we have it. This is something that can't be said about any other Codex which is deemed uncompetetive.

I don't mind the Orks. They're fun. That's good, because in games like 40K it's not hard for the universe to take itself far too seriously. I also have nothing against people who play them, and to be Frank I'm not particularly bothered if people want to tell me they're a competetive Codex. They are. Where we differ is in reasoning why that is. You say it's because they're an awesome army. I say it's the opposite; they're good because most of the stuff they're pitted against is not. Yes they're competeteive, but we all know it's not because their army list is the strongest or because the Codex is good (Ork players complain about both constantly), and if the Orks require little finesse to use it can't be because the person behind the models is a great player, because that's contradictory. Why does such a simple tool require a skilled hand to use?

It's not a question of adopting a position or being tenacious. I'm calling things as I see them, and how I'm sure a lot of Ork players would too if they wiped the green stuff from their eyes and took a step back. Of course most Dakkaites are going to disagree with me; it's an Ork forum after-all, innit? Clue is in the name, I think. If you find it insulting then I'd say you're a bit too emotionally attached to the Orks to see things objectively, in which case feel free to ignore everything I say from this point on.

I'm not going to stop saying it, though ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837987.page GMT
2 threads later, as well as several ork 'Ard Boys wins, and he still insists that Orks are not a strong dex. Nevermind all of the tourneys that they have won over the last year; nevermind that most reputable sites/players list Orks as one of the top 2 codexes; nevermind that he has no physical proof or statistics to back up his claim; Frank still insists that Orks are noobhammers - just because he doesn't like them.

I gotta respect a guy who sticks to his beliefs even though there is nothing backing him up...it shows that he has intestinal fortitude; he's the kind of guy that will never give in to peer pressure.

Now, as much as I resepct Frank for not giving up the ship, he is unfortunately wrong.

Statistics and tournaments over the past year have proven Orks to be strong. Claiming that they only win because other players are noobs is just insulting. In fact, it is far more insulting to every player who doesn't run Orks than it is to Ork players, especially with the ammount of RTTs, Ard Boys events, and GTs that Orks have won during the last year.

To say that the only way for a person to lose to Orks is by either having a poor list or by being a complete noob is a pretty stong statement, and all non-ork players who have ever lost to Orks should be offended by it.

Yes, Orks require little finesse to use. Some people find that distateful; however, others find it rather entertaining. The great thing about different codexes is that they allow you to play different types of armies.

Eldar are a razor; Orks are a sledgehammer. However, there is room for both of ends of the spectrum in 40k. Don't think that just because Orks aren't subtle that they are not capable. When properly applied, both brute force and finesse can be equally effective.

Personally, I find it refreshing that there is at least some variety left in 40k, since it has become ever increasingly more bland since the advent of 4th, when all the armies/chapters/craftwords/etc started to resemble each other more and more.

[i]*edited for typos[/i][/quote]
Pretty much summed up everything.

Btw, just curious : Why is everyone so bothered by Frank Fugger? Just ignore his comments (since I seriously think they are WORTHLESS anyway), and we can continue the discussion from there.
Perhaps, change the topic to : [size=18][b]The Weaknesses of Orks[/b][/size] . And yes, continue the discussion and ignore worthless comments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/837990.page GMT
Shall we start from AV14 and just keep on going, or have we already done that one to death?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838011.page GMT
I like this ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838031.page GMT
Shall we start from AV14 and just keep on going, or have we already done that one to death?[/quote]

Frank....I think you're missing out on the bigger picture. Yes....AV14 is annoying to Ork players. It isn't a show stopper. Every time I see a land raider in a game, I pop it just because I can. I've yet to run up against 4+ land raiders in a single game, but I've taken down 3 in a game with nothing more than nobs with powerklaws, and Ghazghkull's powerklaw.

I cart around a full squad of tankbustas now, along with bomb squigs, and grabbin' klaws, boarding planks, and I'll have Deff Rollas for semi-finals. (6+2D6 Strength) x15 = dead land raider.

Yeah. AV14 is annoying, but if my opponent is carting around land raiders, that's a lot of points they aren't putting into more scary things. Just because Orks don't have lascannons and railguns doesn't mean that they can't come up with another way of dealing with land raiders.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838076.page GMT
GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838091.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838101.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838102.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838108.page GMT
I would wait for the Semifinals before concluding anything about the competitiveness or lack of of any given codex. There are some really *horrible* lists out there that did well in 'Ard Boyz prelims simply because they fought an even more horrible list. I won my local store tourney with a very hard list (Mech Chaos), but it was largely unnecessary against some of my matchups.

R1 is largely roflstomping newbz to get your Golden Ticket. If a certain codex or list type continues to dominate in R2 I think conclusions can be drawn that are more definitive for the current competitive scene.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838113.page GMT
I would wait for the Semifinals before concluding anything about the competitiveness or lack of of any given codex. There are some really *horrible* lists out there that did well in 'Ard Boyz prelims simply because they fought an even more horrible list. I won my local store tourney with a very hard list (Mech Chaos), but it was largely unnecessary against some of my matchups.

R1 is largely roflstomping newbz to get your Golden Ticket. If a certain codex or list type continues to dominate in R2 I think conclusions can be drawn that are more definitive for the current competitive scene.[/quote]

this ^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838218.page GMT

The people bashing Orks, won't care. If Orks dominate round 2(a big IF), they will just continue to say "oh well, the Orks must have all played noobs in round 2". If Orks somehow win this thing, same thing. They will never change their opinion, no matter how wrong it is proven to be.


It's kind of pointless to talk to them, try to prove anything. If Orks win every tournament in the world for the next year, Frank already has his fallback argument that 40k isnt competitive enough to show that Orks arent a good army. So he just runs back to that over and over again.



Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838298.page GMT
They do not think about what if I get a glance off and stop the vehicle in its tracks then follow up with the orks instead of hitting on 6s now are always hitting. Simple things like that make me sick when people look at cold math for just ONE situation. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838326.page GMT 40k isnt competitive enough to show that Orks arent a good army. So he just runs back to that over and over again.[/quote]

You say it's a fallback argument and seem to suggest there's no basis to it, yet you're not providing any counter to it. Show me why it's wrong. Show me that these people are winning tournaments by playing the best players using the best possible lists and I'll believe that Orks are a competetive Codex in their own right rather than being made so by a competetive scene that, largely, isn't competetive.

So far it's gone from throwing tailored lists and hypotheses at me to attacking my position and arguments without providing any of your own, over and above the whole "Orks win heats so they MUST be good!". If it makes anyone feel any less slighted I believe that Necrons, Tyranids and Daemonhunters are similarly crippled; the difference is that those other three Codexes require substantially more involvement to be put to best use, whereas the Ork Codex can be used to great effect by pretty much anybody. It's getting to the stage where I'm seriously considering eBaying an Ork army just so's I can not touch it until the next UK GT comes up, then crack it out of the box, enter, and see how well I do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838351.page GMT
Translation-----I'll make an impossible standard that no one can live up to, so therefore I'm right.


GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838376.page GMT

GG[/quote]

It's entirely possible to "live up to" it; are batreps and army lists THAT difficult to come by? Obviously they are, otherwise I wouldn't need to bang on like this



UK Throne of Skulls heat one is on October 17th; might have to cancel my plans for the new Space Wolves army to get my awesome Orks list painted in time :(]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838404.page GMT
At last... a FF quote I can agree with. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838503.page GMT
Translation-----I'll make an impossible standard that no one can live up to, so therefore I'm right.


GG[/quote]

And that's worse than simply shouting "You're wrong!" without any evidence to the contrary...how?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838507.page GMT
At last... a FF quote I can agree with. [/quote]

That's taken completely out of context ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838513.page GMT
Frank has not [b]proven[/b] anything either. Yet, we are expected to [b]disprove[/b] his [b]opinion [/b]. He has presented no facts that I can see, all opinion based argument. Why should we answer this;


Orks suck.


With anything other than this;


No, they don't.


We provided what little evidence there really is, and that is results based. Frank just chooses to make a statement about how 40k isn't competitive, so thats supposedly why the Orks are doing well. Would you prefer me to argue back "40k is very competitive, and Orks are winning, so therefore Orks are competitive", to counter his point?

Just so he can claim that we are the ones with the burden of proof, and that his opinion should be considered fact until we can convice him personally somehow? I find that laughable.



Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838684.page GMT RTT. The following weekend, I'm taking that same 1850 point army to the Necro Indy GT.

It's a lot of games with the same army. On the plus side, it looks pretty cool. I'm almost ready to post up pics here showcasing the army (assuming it doesn't get totally pasted at the Necro

The only downside to round 2 of the Ard Boyz, is that it can bring out some ugliness in otherwise pleasant individuals. Put some money on the table (so to speak), and attitudes tend to change.

And I'm also waiting for the new Wolves.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838808.page GMT
Frank has not [b]proven[/b] anything either.[/quote]

I haven't got access to batreps or lists so this will have to do. UK Throne of Skulls results; interpret them how you will. Remember we're not just looking at the winners; we're looking at the tables as a whole to see what kind of armies are placing well:

UK Throne Of Skulls 08-09 Heat 1:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/wh_tsgt40k_final_results_ht1.pdf

Because the Dark Angels Codex is top ten quality in ANYONE'S book! Also note how many Orks players there are compared to players of other armies; maybe I should add "weight of numbers" to the "shoddy opponents" hypothesis?


UK ToS 08-09 Heat 2:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/warhammer_world_news/files/40k_tsgt_ht_2_karen6.pdf

More proof that Dark Angels are a competetive army. And Tyranids too, apparently.


UK ToS 08-09 Heat 3:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40k-tsgt-heat-3-actual-r6.pdf

No Dark Angels in the top ten here. Maybe they stopped being competetive all of a sudden?


UK ToS 08-09 Final:
http://warhammerworld.typepad.com/files/wh40ktosgt-final-mkii-r6.pdf

There you go.

This sort of pattern is repeated throughout the 40K tournament scene. Look at any of the White Dwarf reports from official torunaments and you'll see what I mean. The Guard fanfare issue was particularly shoddy; the garbage these journalists took to the Doubles Event would shame a child. "Lol Lysander and Termies in a 500pt army list WHAT CAN POSSIBLY GO WRONG?!" If you think that's an isolated incident, play more competetive 40K.

Watching Stelek's blog as the 'Ard Boyz results keep a-comin', too. Daemonhunters doin' fine; which is cool, I always like to root for the DH players because I'm a Grey Knight fanboy at heart. Sure the Codex sucks and they require vast amounts of sweat and tears to be remotely competetive, and indeed wouldn't be competetive at all if the tourney scene was, but hey.

One last thing; bear in mind that nobody is saying "Orks suck". They don't. For whatever reason, they're a competetive army. What I'm saying is if competetive 40K was more competetive they wouldn't be. If you're going to RAEG at me then at least do it for the right reasons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/838817.page GMT
This is a great example of the difference between a hardcore 40k player and someone with a little less tactical acumen.

My apologies notabot for singling you out, but the deffrolla makes a HUGE difference for orks in certain matchups. In others not so much. My IG army has been dismantling foot orks, bike orks and mechanized orks lately.

Remember that I'm only speaking about my particular IG list, and the anti-ork tactics I've been using against very skilled players.

My anti-mech ork tactic revolves around my 6 devildogs. I move them 18" every game. As close as I can possibly get, and sideways, to the battlewagons. Almost every other army in the game will lose a movement phase to the wall, but will be able to melta my tanks down through their smoke, and trundle off on their next turn. Ork players without access to a deffrolla are completely stuck. The boarding plank can't legally be used against targets that move more than 12". The wrecking ball is not going to be enough to explode my tanks, and getting out to claw my tanks funnels you into a nice packed up ball, and I pack at least 1 manticore and at least 4 medusas to really make you pay for debarking like that. So you lose a turn of movement, and then unless you had lootas, you are set up for me to be able to recycle my movement next turn, swapping the postitions of my devildogs again, denying your boarding planks, and another turn of movement. While this is happening, bastion breachers are dropping into the tanks, and scoring a consistent number of AP1 pens for you to cover save against. Pens that have +2 to damage rolls.

It is my belief that designer intent was for deffrollas to work on vehicles, 5th edition was deep in development when orks were being written, hell there was mention of 'defensive grenades' in the chaos space marine codex. Regardless of intent. Almost every other army has a plethora of shooting based anti-tank that can be attached to, or ride in transports. Shooting is not bound by the dreaded 6's to hit conundrum of anti-vehicle CC. I believe that deffrollas should work on my cheap tactic, and you should (on a good roll) be able to blast through my roadblock in a very orky fashion. That would challenge my IG list a lot more and make for a lot more fun games.

Congratulations to all of the ork winners so far. I don't mean this condescendingly. I don't think orks are some disadvantaged underpowered list, the only thing different from last season (where orks completely dominated an entire season of high level tournament play) is the introduction of the IG codex. My position has always been that IG has a great matchup against orks, considering equal generalship and list construction. Nothing more though. Every other army I own in my collection seriously fears orks. I hope that in the finals, there are swathes of ork players, all hungry to get an offical and IN PRINT ruling on deffrollas. I for one think that they should work on vehicles, and I think a lot of the former ork players that are tired of getting walled off and templated in their local meta will come back into the fold hardcore.

So ork players keep winning next month please! I need to see that deffrolla ruling in print!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839113.page GMT
There's something there to give me pause; I would definitely be counting on my grabbin' klaws (if Deff Rollas aren't allowed) to be holding you still so I could get some good swings off. I wonder how that would work? A squadron of vehicles, and a grabbin' klaw causing a one-turn immobilize result to one of them. Would it immobilize the squadron? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839171.page GMT
There's something there to give me pause; I would definitely be counting on my grabbin' klaws (if Deff Rollas aren't allowed) to be holding you still so I could get some good swings off. I wonder how that would work? A squadron of vehicles, and a grabbin' klaw causing a one-turn immobilize result to one of them. Would it immobilize the squadron? [/quote]

I'll check on that. I feel like I'm remembering some squadron rules from 4th edition as well as 5th. So I'd want to look at a book before I commented.

Your klaws fortunately keep you from being permanently walled off, which might be a mandatory upgrade. Your planks can auto-hit rear armor 10 on the following turn which should easily blast you clear of the roadblock.

It just sucks that I'll be able to take two movement phases away from you with a rather 'uninspired' tactic. I think orks deserve a one turn solution to this problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839178.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839193.page GMT
I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth, and I play Orks. I do not need to beat every single 40k player on the planet earth in every possible scenario to prove it. Instead, I can remain undefeated as an Ork player through every possible scenario. Until an individual topples me, I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth.

I don't need to prove that I'm right, you need to prove me wrong.

All the quarter-final rounds where Orks won (and other races) - the players who won get to make the same claim. At the final round of 'Ard Boyz, there will remain only one person who can still claim to be the best 40k player, and they do not need to individually beat every person who meets your criteria to maintain that claim. Titles are granted, then challenged; not infinitely fought for and not granted.

Unless you can find someone with the tactical combination and army list that can take me down, then Orks are the best army in 40k. And if we throw your logic into the mix, even if I get beaten...Orks are STILL the best army in 40k, I just lost with them because I'm a noob.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839195.page GMT
I see the point you are trying to make, but that analogy doesn't cut it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839224.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839263.page GMT
i like this concept on paper.

In the past I've had very little success with them. But 12 rokkit shots out of a battlewagon that moved 7", and not losing its boarding plank klaw (or tankhammer) like a wagon full of burnas or lootas would, should be great in this world of tank spamming. Uncontrollable movement and targeting decisions are right up there with 'random abilities' in the pantheon of crappy game design ideas. And that always turned me off of the unit.

I'll have to pore over "Glory Hogs" again and look at how that'll effect their behavior in a transport. Moving around and shooting rokkits would be great. But debarking and charging a vehicle at an inopportune time would put them right back in the case.

To the codex!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839269.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839269.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839294.page GMT LOS regardless of range.

From the glory hogs rule in the codex. This leads me to believe that they would spontaneously disembark to assault a vehicle]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839330.page GMT
Tankbustas and Glory Hogs tell you to shoot at and/or assault an enemy vehicle if there is one in range; it doesn't tell you how to move. It is neither your job nor I to make inferences about a rule that aren't written into it. The writers of the Ork codex obviously know how to tell a unit how to move during the movement phase; they did it with One Scalpel Short for Mad Dok. If they wanted the same language to apply to Tankbustas, they would have written it in.

My tankbustas always attempt to shoot an enemy vehicle if there is one in line of sight. Notice the addition of /or next to the and, giving us and/or. That means that tankbustas have an option. Tankbustas must attempt to shoot an enemy vehicle, OR tankbustas must attempt to assault an enemy vehicle, OR tankbustas must attempt to both shoot AND assault an enemy vehicle.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839368.page GMT
"Glory hogs" hurts foot based tankbustas (which is a shame) because they can't run if there is a single enemy vehicle in LOS.

In a battlewagon, the running isn't an issue, and the charging isn't an issue either. You must charge if you can, as per Glory Hogs. But there is no enforcement of mandatory debarkation. A quick search of YMDC revealed a pretty overwhelming consensus on that point.

Therefore, as long as tankbustas are in a battlewagon, they are pretty much a normal unit with the only catch that if you want to shoot at some space marines, and there is a land raider on the table, then sorry buddy gotta shoot at the land raider, and if you shot at the land raider, then you aren't charging anything but the land raider (or someone who fell out of it)

I'm thinking a couple units of 15 tankbustas with 2x tank hammers, a nob with a power klaw and bosspole is in order. Or do you skip the klaw, since you have the tank hammers for boarding plank duty?

And Dash, this is what I fund on the vehicle squadron question.

"When a squadron moves, all of its vehicles move the same speed (i.e. they all move at combat speed, at cruising speed, etc.)"

Since they used the speed catagories from the vehicles section of the rulebook for their example, I'm gonna venture to say that if one of my vehicles in a squadron MUST be 'stationary' then the rest are compelled to "move at the same speed".

Thats good enough for me I think.

Oh and some quick math showed that 13 BS2 rokkits and 2 bomb squigs penetrates armor 12 1.98 times. Lootas shooting twice penetrate armor 12 1.6 times.

delicious food for thought.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839496.page GMT
However, before I bust out the paints and order up 10 more Tankbustas, I'm awaiting some type of response from GW regarding Deff Rollas. After all, it's not like the kit is coming out in less than a month and the public outcry about Deff Rollas being broken.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839896.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839901.page GMT GW to rule that deff rollaz work when tank shocking landraiders? Just kidding.

Nidz also have problems with AV14. That has always been a trait of low tech horde armies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/839961.page GMT
However, before I bust out the paints and order up 10 more Tankbustas, I'm awaiting some type of response from GW regarding Deff Rollas. After all, it's not like the kit is coming out in less than a month and the public outcry about Deff Rollas being broken.[/quote]

Before you order up 10 more tankbustas, you should look in your bitz box. I bought a box of fantasy orks quite some time ago to give me extra bodies; they made my kommandos. Fantasy box maces cut in half give you rokkits. Boyz boxes (and most other things) come with a tankbusta bomb or two. I cut apart the kill-kan rokkits and glued the rokkits onto sluggas to make rokkit pistols....my rokkit launcha boyz that don't belong in any mobs went into the tank-busta group....all sorts of stuff. I bought one box of tank-bustas (and got bomb squigs) but the rest of my tank-bustas were kustom-built.

As for utility....I don't take a nob with my tank bustas; if I'm going to boarding plank something, a Nob with a powerklaw is STR9, and a Tankhammer is STR10. They have plenty of killy without needing a nob with a powerklaw, and I keep them away from mixing it up in close combat with nasty things. In 'Ard Boyz, I didn't play a single space marine player between all my games. They *did* do a few nifty things for me though:

1. Got a glancing 6 against an open-topped battlewagon turn1, destroying it.
2. Killed a leman russ and multi-assaulted two heavy IG tanks, killing them both.
3. Killed a couple of elite Carnifexes in one round of shooting at each. (STR8 AP3); tyranids have no vehicles.
4. Killed a wraithguard; the eldar player had no vehicles on the table, so I went after his monstrous creatures.


My current configuration of vehicles has a battlewagon with a deff rolla and a boarding plank, with 15 tankbustas inside (can't remember offhand if I took the bomb squigs out). I can Deff-rolla into a vehicle, then either shoot it or another vehicle, then potentially boarding plank and assault the vehicle I just hit with a deffrolla. There's a lot of potential in there. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840159.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840197.page GMT Your wall trick is nice, and I'll have to remember it. However, since I always bring 30 lootas, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

How do you deal with Lootas backing up BW orks?

(P.S. This is a serious question, as I am starting an IG army soon, to go along side my Eldar, DA and Orks)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840292.page GMT
360 points.

Battlewagon is 125, Tankbustas are 235.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840326.page GMT HQ unit or Nob to supply the all important Bosspole, or else they tend to run off quickly.

One favorite configuration is to put them in the BW with the KFF Big Mek. He gets the Bosspole, the Tankbustas get a ride, and the Battlewagon supplies the rest of the units around it with the KFF. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840367.page GMT 2D6 x10 is pretty good odds. Tankhammers are nice, and work against non-vehicle units, but volume is what counts with Orks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840617.page GMT
I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth, and I play Orks. I do not need to beat every single 40k player on the planet earth in every possible scenario to prove it. Instead, I can remain undefeated as an Ork player through every possible scenario. Until an individual topples me, I am the best 40k player on the planet Earth.

I don't need to prove that I'm right, you need to prove me wrong.[/quote]

I don't see how presenting this hypothetical scenario burdens me in any way.

My opinion is that Orks wouldn't do anywhere near as well as they currently do if competetive 40K was more competetive. The ToS rankings show that not everyone is bringing the most competetive of Codexes to the party at the UK's premier GT event, which (along with the raft of other results from other tournaments I've seen over the years, including the Round 1 results from 'Ard Boyz) sort of bears out my reasoning that competetive 40K isn't competetive. Obviously without proper army lists it's difficult to give this evidence any sort of meaty context, but since you're trailing into hypothesis I feel I have a bit of leeway to do the same.

Nobody would try to classify the Dark Angels Codex as balanced, or "competetive", or whatever. It was a test-bed for the 5th Edition Smurf Codex, and as such pretty much everything available in it is also available to Smurf players, only cheaper, better, and punchier. The exception is Deathwing, and thus we can hypothesise that the only reason you'd take a DA army to a GT is because you want to play Deathwing. Now, Deathwing aren't fantastic. There are multiple reasons for this, but for the sake of brevity we'll just say they're not great and allow people to look them up and judge for themselves. They are, however, the only unique factor when it comes to the DA Codex (inb4 Dualwing, because that sucks. Also inb4 Greenwing, Ravenwing and/or Mech-DA, because those all have analogues within the Smurf Codex which are better and cheaper). Deathwing are also, arguably, one of very few "competetive" ways to build your DA list.

So, supposing the DA player who finished in the top 10 for the first two rounds was playing a Deathwing army. That's a "competetive" list built from a rubbish Codex. What does that say about his opposition? I've got about 6 army lists swimming around my head right now that would have a DW player conceding at deployment; and one of them is from the Orks Codex.

We could argue that that's a bad analogy because any-Wing armies suck utter cod-milt at 1500pts. So assuming he was playing DA Mech instead, because that doesn't suck (as bad) at 1500pts as a DA-Wing army. It still sucks, though. It's still expensive, stiff and silly compared to Mech Smurfs. How, then, did he manage to do so well with it?

I know it seems like I'm picking on DA players, and to an extent I suppose I am. I also realise that, if the DA player from the ToS is reading this he'll likely feel slighted at my suggestion that the reason he did so well up until heat 3 is because he was playing gimps. I'd apologise, but the price you pay for taking a rubbish Codex to a GT and succeeding with it, then thinking the fact you did makes you awesome.

[quote]Unless you can find someone with the tactical combination and army list that can take me down, then Orks are the best army in 40k. And if we throw your logic into the mix, even if I get beaten...Orks are STILL the best army in 40k, [b]I just lost with them because I'm a noob.[/b][/quote]

But you're the best player in the world. You can't be the best and also a noob.

You seem to be either misinterpreting and/ or misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's not the case that Ork players who succeed at tournaments are "noobs" or whatever. Far from it. It could be argued that the ability to spot a noobhammer Codex, recognise that the scene sucks balls, and then use said noobhammer to do well is actually quite canny. What I'M saying is that, when other the hammered noobs start recognising it too, the hammer will stop working. It's also not the case that the Ork Codex doesn't contain solutions to certain things (like, for instance, AV14). In the last thread I suggested this was the case, and after thinking on it for a while I realised that it's not at all; solutions to anything can be found. The only problem is the solutions in the Ork Codex are neither as reliable nor as flexible, multi-purpose and resilient as the solutions in other Codexes.

That's basically what Stelek means when he says they're "bottom of competetive" and also the reasoning behind his forming of this opinion, and if we look at the standings from UK ToS they sort of bear that out. Orks didn't win. They placed well, though. If there weren't so many of them, and people hadn't been bringing flabby DA/ Tyranid lists to the party, they probably wouldn't have done so well.



As an aside... What would be helpful if people would stop feeling personally slighted by what I'm saying and take a step back, look at 40K for what it is, and try to apply my logic to it. In the grand scheme of things this is just a thread on a messageboard, but in terms of 40K it's a discussion worth having if you've got the patience and the motivation to sit through it. If you can do these things, and you find some objective evidence that you feel counters my argument, by all means throw it out there. I assure you that if I'm proven wrong in a conclusive way, I'll hold my hands up and admit it. It needs to be conclusive, though, rather than conjectural or hypothetical.

If you can't do that, and would instead prefer to continue bawwing and RAEGing at me personally... meh. It's your dime, I suppose. For my part I'll do my best to keep you folks entertained, but I'm afraid that with the sudden emergence into the debate of people able to form coherent sentences and cohesive arguments I might be too busy to respond to you personally. I'll be thinking of you though. Honestly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840736.page GMT That's basically what Stelek means when he says they're "bottom of competetive" and also the reasoning behind his forming of this opinion, and if we look at the standings from UK ToS they sort of bear that out. Orks didn't win. They placed well, though. If there weren't so many of them, and people hadn't been bringing flabby DA/ Tyranid lists to the party, they probably wouldn't have done so well.

As an aside... What would be helpful if people would stop feeling personally slighted by what I'm saying and take a step back, look at 40K for what it is, and try to apply my logic to it. In the grand scheme of things this is just a thread on a messageboard, but in terms of 40K it's a discussion worth having if you've got the patience and the motivation to sit through it. If you can do these things, and you find some objective evidence that you feel counters my argument, by all means throw it out there. I assure you that if I'm proven wrong in a conclusive way, I'll hold my hands up and admit it. It needs to be conclusive, though, rather than conjectural or hypothetical.

If you can't do that, and would instead prefer to continue bawwing and RAEGing at me personally... meh. It's your dime, I suppose. For my part I'll do my best to keep you folks entertained, but I'm afraid that with the sudden emergence into the debate of people able to form coherent sentences and cohesive arguments I might be too busy to respond to you personally. I'll be thinking of you though. Honestly.[/quote]

Are you Stelek's spokesman now?

People were saying you were acting like a dick... well, because you were acting like a dick.

That said your "New" argument certainly comes across better now that it doesn't contain the insults and talking down tone.

Still, the Ork codex is very competitive regardless of the environment. Even the most recent tournament results support this. All the other hard lists got to play the easy lists as well, so I do not see how that makes much difference.

I did notice a significant decrease in the number of Ork players at the 2 tournaments I attended this weekend. Guard and Chaos are for sure the flavor of the month. I wonder Frank how this will effect your future studies?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840774.page GMT
Do you have to be someone's spokesman to agree with their ideas? Funny way to run a world.

[quote]People were saying you were acting like a dick... well, because you were acting like a dick.[/quote]

Yeah, that wasn't good. Then again I was led to believe that this was a forum of grown-ups; it's apparently not (and I don't mean that in an insulting or derogatory way - simply that there are a lot of younger members here too), and I'll factor that into my dealings from now on.

Well, most of the time.

[quote]That said your "New" argument certainly comes across better now that it doesn't contain the insults and talking down tone.

Still, the Ork codex is very competitive regardless of the environment. Even the most recent tournament results support this.[/quote]

Show them to me, if you'd be so kind. From where I'm sitting (ear-deep in the UK ToS tables and the 'Ard Boyz first round results, which are the two most recent that I'm aware of) it looks like this is wishful thinking rather than hard fact.

[quote]All the other hard lists got to play the easy lists as well, so I do not see how that makes much difference.[/quote]

It's not a case of "everyone got to play the crap"; it's that, without the crap to play, the Orks wouldn't be as competetive as they currently are whereas the truly hard lists still would be.

It's also questionable how "hard" some of the hard lists truly are.

[quote]I did notice a significant decrease in the number of Ork players at the 2 tournaments I attended this weekend. Guard and Chaos are for sure the flavor of the month. I wonder Frank how this will effect your future studies?[/quote]

Time will tell, though since the number of Ork players decreasing means a new Codex is less likely, and since the book is the core issue, I'd be willing to bet "not at all".

I'm also curious as to how you think an army that is one of the most prominent at tournaments, i.e Chaos, is "flavour of the month"?

Another aside, the prevalence of CSM lists at tournaments is further proof of the crappy standards I'm talking about, especially when you consider that 90% of these lists will contain Plague Marines ago-go, dual-Lash, Berzerkers, Kharn, or any combination of the above. None of these things should be "hard" for a 5th Ed army to deal with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840820.page GMT CSM lists at tournaments is further proof of the crappy standards I'm talking about, especially when you consider that 90% of these lists will contain Plague Marines ago-go, dual-Lash, Berzerkers, Kharn, or any combination of the above. None of these things should be "hard" for a 5th Ed army to deal with.[/quote]

I just can't agree with your assessment that CSM aren't competitive anymore. That does seem to be what you are saying. Regardless, a well-built CSM lash list is still a force to be reckoned with in the hands of a skilled general, even against these mech lists.

So what army do you believe is the best right now? I just want to know how you judge what is currently out there, especially now that you are implying that the BEST units in the CSM codex are proof of "crappy touranment standards".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840882.page GMT CSM) and basic transports (Rhino) for the point values. When you add together how well all of those things synergize with mech Chaos guiding Deep Striking Oblits via icons, I mean, it's basically a perfect storm for army optimization.

It's not undefeatable and shooty mech builds like IG, DE, and Tau have the tools to take them off of the table, but against the majority of matchups lash/mech Chaos is going to do fine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/840982.page GMT CSM aren't competitive anymore. That does seem to be what you are saying.[/quote]

They're not uncompetetive. They're just not a proper "hard" Codex, not in 5th Edition.

[quote]Regardless, a well-built CSM[/quote]

... list is just as hard and competetive as any C: SM mech list because CSM squads are cheap and nasty, Chosen squads will eat your face, and Warptime Daemon-Princes are nose-bitingly tremendous?

[quote]lash list is still a force to be reckoned with in the hands of a skilled general, even against these mech lists.[/quote]

No, we're back to Lash. I just don't see how people can NOT have figured Lash out yet; put all of your units in transports and poof goes the crutch. Be as skilled as you want, Lash still doesn't work on tracked vehicles.

[quote]So what army do you believe is the best right now? I just want to know how you judge what is currently out there, especially now that you are implying that the BEST units in the CSM codex are proof of "crappy touranment standards".[/quote]

If you think that Lash lists are the best the CSM Codex all I can say is try some other builds. Obviously you can take the best the CSM Codex has to offer alongside your Lashing DPs and/ or Sorcerors, but the best units in the CSM Codex are the best precisely because they don't need Lash to be awesome.

Define what you mean by "best" army out there. If we mean the Codexes which contain the most viable hard lists it'd go something like, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Codex: Smurfs (damn you Vulkan!), Chaos Spurfs (note: not Lash. Never Lash), Witch Hunters (nobody expected the Inquisiton ) and The Guard. The Tau only really have one or two options for building hard lists and tend to fail it when it comes to doing anything other than showering people with shots, but that works too. Why hold objectives when you can just S10 AP1 and Plasma your opponent off the board in 3 turns? Probably the easiest hard list to counter (mobile AV14, Fast Skimmers and templates will eat it's face), but still harder than most other things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841005.page GMT

I do check Stelek's blog occasionally, and I posted the results for our first round, both here, and there. You are saying that Stelek's numbers show that Orks didn't do well? But here, they did VERY well as an army in the first round. Did he have tons more data than is posted here? I might have missed that thread, but what I did see, was less actual numbers supported on his site as compared to here.


Can you link me the numbers you are getting from his site? A quick search here should show you that Orks were either the highest, or 2nd highest placing army in the first round nationally. If you consider the numbers here to be enough to calculate some basic stats.



Thanks,


Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841009.page GMT CSM) and basic transports (Rhino) for the point values. When you add together how well all of those things synergize with mech Chaos guiding Deep Striking Oblits via icons, I mean, it's basically a perfect storm for army optimization.[/quote]

I agree totally, and the only reason I haven't got much of a CSM collection is because I'm a loyalist lapdog trying to put together a Biker list AND a 1500pt Ork army to take to the Throne of Skulls in October (I've got my list sorted by the way, and the name; Captain Scrudmongler's Scruds. They shall be pink, and there shall be nary a Loota in sight).

Problem is, how many Chaos Spurf players do you know who run anything other than crumby dual-Lash/ Plague Marines/ oh look it's Zerkers in Rhinos/ here's a random Defiler lists? The CSMs are not a bad Codex by any manner or means, and to be honest I'm probably overstating the case against Lash a bit because it can be made to work to devastating effect when combined with Oblits, Termicide squads and other such stuff. The overuse of Lash and it's (somewhat undeserved) status as a "crutch" isn't what makes the CSMs a depressing sight on tourney tables. It's the knowledge that 90% of the people who play Chaos Spurfs do so for the Lash above all else, and the further realisation that 99% of that 90% are thus going to be flavour of the monthers who want Pink-Powah! because they think it's an I-WIN button, a fact largely reflected in their list composition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841032.page GMT
I don't think it has anything to do with "figuring it out". Even against mech armies, Lash is very effective. It very much affects how/when/where the mech player can drop his units and greatly limits their options. It isn't an auto-win for an army just because its models are in transports. Lash also is not solely what makes the list dangerous. It looks like we can just agree to disagree, as I don't think I can change your mind. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841040.page GMT
Yes, because local success and personal experience are what count when determining how competetive armies are. I've lost, sum-total, 3 games with my pure Grey Knights Raider-spam list; therefore, pure Grey Knights are competetive. Right?

[quote]Can you link me the numbers you are getting from his site? A quick search here should show you that Orks were either the highest, or 2nd highest placing army in the first round nationally. If you consider the numbers here to be enough to calculate some basic stats.[/quote]

I don't. A lot of the results posted here have also been posted on Stelek's blog too, and they sort of get lost amidst the sea of other results in which no Ork lists appear at all. Here you go:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

If you've got access to an official national 'Ard Boyz listing I'd be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise this is probably as close as we get for the time being.



Also, for the people asking my why I'm going to take an Ork army to a GT and attempt to do well if I'm trying to prove they suck, read the thread back again.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=skipdog172][quote=Frank Fugger]No, we're back to Lash. I just don't see how people can NOT have figured Lash out yet; put all of your units in transports and poof goes the crutch. Be as skilled as you want, Lash still doesn't work on tracked vehicles.[/quote]

I don't think it has anything to do with "figuring it out". Even against mech armies, Lash is very effective. It very much affects how/when/where the mech player can drop his units and greatly limits their options. It isn't an auto-win for an army just because its models are in transports. Lash also is not solely what makes the list dangerous. It looks like we can just agree to disagree, as I don't think I can change your mind. [/quote]

[quote=Frank Fugger][quote=sourclams]I'm willing to agree with your assessments regarding Orks, but Chaos have both one of the best/most versatile shooting units (Oblits) and one of the strongest basic troops (regular CSM) and basic transports (Rhino) for the point values. When you add together how well all of those things synergize with mech Chaos guiding Deep Striking Oblits via icons, I mean, it's basically a perfect storm for army optimization.[/quote]

I agree totally, and the only reason I haven't got much of a CSM collection is because I'm a loyalist lapdog trying to put together a Biker list AND a 1500pt Ork army to take to the Throne of Skulls in October (I've got my list sorted by the way, and the name; Captain Scrudmongler's Scruds. They shall be pink, and there shall be nary a Loota in sight).

Problem is, how many Chaos Spurf players do you know who run anything other than crumby dual-Lash/ Plague Marines/ oh look it's Zerkers in Rhinos/ here's a random Defiler lists? The CSMs are not a bad Codex by any manner or means, and to be honest I'm probably overstating the case against Lash a bit because it can be made to work to devastating effect when combined with Oblits, Termicide squads and other such stuff. The overuse of Lash and it's (somewhat undeserved) status as a "crutch" isn't what makes the CSMs a depressing sight on tourney tables. It's the knowledge that 90% of the people who play Chaos Spurfs do so for the Lash above all else, and the further realisation that 99% of that 90% are thus going to be flavour of the monthers who want Pink-Powah! because they think it's an I-WIN button, a fact largely reflected in their list composition.[/quote]

Funny how that works, innit? And I posted that before your reply.... PIME TARADOX


EDIT: For clarity's sake; I'm not suggesting that the CSM Codex sucks, because that's just silly since it doesn't. I'm also not even saying Lash is necessarily a "bad thing", because a hard list can be built around it. What I'm saying is that a lot of Lash players don't do this, and instead choose to try and run their army as disparate blocks of (points-intensive) models rather than having the whole thing revolve around each other. Which is a silly way to run any list. This happens more with CSMs than most other Codexes because of Lash's reputation as an I-WIN button and a broken ability, which it ain't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841045.page GMT
Frank conjectures that Orks should hypothetically do less well than other codexes, but that entire supposition is based on the idea that Orks don't have an answer to AV14. I can't speak to anyone elses' experience, but not every game I play is riddled with 5 land raiders, and when I *do* run up against a land raider or two, I have no problem destroying them.

If Frank's belief is that a lack of long-ranged STR9 and STR10 weaponry constitute a weakness in an Ork armylist, I could counter that armies are simply different. If I wanted long ranged firepower and anti-tank, I'd whip out my Tau. Not having a railgun certainly makes an Ork army different, but it doesn't make Orks a weaker army.

It really seems to boil down to one thing: You appear to have a single-minded viewpoint of how all situations in 40k should be dealt with. You view Orks as not having the same arsenal as space marines/other xenos, which makes them a weaker army. Yet, the debate about which army is an endlessly unprovable debate. Is vanilla icecream inferior to chocolate icecream? Can you prove it? Can you prove that Orks are inferior to *ANY* other codex? Can you prove that Orks are not the absolute best codex in existence?

That's my point. I believe the Orks codex is the single most powerful codex currently in existence. In every venue I participate in, my Orks have absolutely dominated the playing field. I have no reason to believe that Orks are not the most powerful codex in existence. To my eyes, you have an opinion that runs contrary to my empirical evidence, and in any analytical discourse, fact will always prevail over countering opinion, lest that countering point of view be backed up by equal fact.

For example, if your argument was, "Orks are an inferior army, I regularly stomp ork players. I've played every Ork player in my area time and again, and it isn't even fun anymore because they lose so hard." I'd at *least* take a look at the merits of your argument. It could be mismatched army lists, unbalanced lists, poor generalship, or it could be a true weakness in the Ork army. Yet...that isn't your argument. Orks are destroying competition left and right. Absolutely destroying competition. You mentioned that Orks didn't win the UK GT....do Orks have to win every single competition to not be a 3rd tier army?

I just think that you're attempting to turn your opinion, which is fact-less and largely based on contrived beliefs about how 40k should be played into an actual "side" when there simply is neither grounds nor merit for your beliefs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841050.page GMT
Yes, because local success and personal experience are what count when determining how competetive armies are. I've lost, sum-total, 3 games with my pure Grey Knights Raider-spam list; therefore, pure Grey Knights are competetive. Right?

[quote]Can you link me the numbers you are getting from his site? A quick search here should show you that Orks were either the highest, or 2nd highest placing army in the first round nationally. If you consider the numbers here to be enough to calculate some basic stats.[/quote]

I don't. A lot of the results posted here have also been posted on Stelek's blog too, and they sort of get lost amidst the sea of other results in which no Ork lists appear at all. Here you go:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

If you've got access to an official national 'Ard Boyz listing I'd be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise this is probably as close as we get for the time being.


Also, for the people asking my why I'm going to take an Ork army to a GT and attempt to do well if I'm trying to prove they suck, read the thread back again.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=skipdog172][quote=Frank Fugger]No, we're back to Lash. I just don't see how people can NOT have figured Lash out yet; put all of your units in transports and poof goes the crutch. Be as skilled as you want, Lash still doesn't work on tracked vehicles.[/quote]

I don't think it has anything to do with "figuring it out". Even against mech armies, Lash is very effective. It very much affects how/when/where the mech player can drop his units and greatly limits their options. It isn't an auto-win for an army just because its models are in transports. Lash also is not solely what makes the list dangerous. It looks like we can just agree to disagree, as I don't think I can change your mind. [/quote]

[quote=Frank Fugger][quote=sourclams]I'm willing to agree with your assessments regarding Orks, but Chaos have both one of the best/most versatile shooting units (Oblits) and one of the strongest basic troops (regular CSM) and basic transports (Rhino) for the point values. When you add together how well all of those things synergize with mech Chaos guiding Deep Striking Oblits via icons, I mean, it's basically a perfect storm for army optimization.[/quote]

I agree totally, and the only reason I haven't got much of a CSM collection is because I'm a loyalist lapdog trying to put together a Biker list AND a 1500pt Ork army to take to the Throne of Skulls in October (I've got my list sorted by the way, and the name; Captain Scrudmongler's Scruds. They shall be pink, and there shall be nary a Loota in sight).

Problem is, how many Chaos Spurf players do you know who run anything other than crumby dual-Lash/ Plague Marines/ oh look it's Zerkers in Rhinos/ here's a random Defiler lists? The CSMs are not a bad Codex by any manner or means, and to be honest I'm probably overstating the case against Lash a bit because it can be made to work to devastating effect when combined with Oblits, Termicide squads and other such stuff. The overuse of Lash and it's (somewhat undeserved) status as a "crutch" isn't what makes the CSMs a depressing sight on tourney tables. It's the knowledge that 90% of the people who play Chaos Spurfs do so for the Lash above all else, and the further realisation that 99% of that 90% are thus going to be flavour of the monthers who want Pink-Powah! because they think it's an I-WIN button, a fact largely reflected in their list composition.[/quote]

Funny how that works, innit? And I posted that before your reply.... PIME TARADOX


EDIT: For clarity's sake; I'm not suggesting that the CSM Codex sucks, because that's just silly since it doesn't. I'm also not even saying Lash is necessarily a "bad thing", because a hard list can be built around it. What I'm saying is that a lot of Lash players don't do this, and instead choose to try and run their army as disparate blocks of (points-intensive) models rather than having the whole thing revolve around each other. Which is a silly way to run any list. This happens more with CSMs than most other Codexes because of Lash's reputation as an I-WIN button and a broken ability, which it ain't.[/quote]



Thats where I think I am getting confused. How are Stelek's numbers any better/more important than the ones here? Stelek basically has the same info, just from different people. I think, you'd have to combine both lists, and cross out the dual posts, to get any semblance of a real number. It's fairly obvious that a lot of the posters there agree with you and Stelek, and so, would never take Orks to a tournament. That being said, they are also probably some good players there as well as here, so if they are against Orks, or think Orks are a poor army choice, they won't take them, and their results will show that other armies are doing well. If some of the good players here, disagree with that assessment, and do take Orks, and do well, then there will be a much higher percentage of Orks doing well on this board, compared to that one. That doesn't prove that Orks are bad however. If the best players in the nation all decided to take Tyranids, you know Tyranids woulda cleaned out most of these first round events. So, in the end, we are left with what?

Absolutely no way to prove that Orks are not as good as everyone thinks. Unless we could find 2 equally skilled players, and let them pair off with each codex, and do a round by round elimination tournament, where they could choose their army list before each game.


You are right about the local thing, but that also goes for the "meta game". It just doesnt exist in my opinion outisde of your local play area. If the local Meta favors Nids, they will do well, if they move on from there to a meta that doesnt favor Nids, then they will do poorly. There is no national "meta" to speak of, just little pockets of meta everywhere.



Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841082.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841147.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841174.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841202.page GMT


Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841203.page GMT That's basically what Stelek means when he says they're "bottom of competetive" and also the reasoning behind his forming of this opinion, and if we look at the standings from UK ToS they sort of bear that out. Orks didn't win. They placed well, though. If there weren't so many of them, and people hadn't been bringing flabby DA/ Tyranid lists to the party, they probably wouldn't have done so well.
[/quote]

Well hmm...looking at results, there were 8 Ork armies in Top 20, and 14 in Top 50 (more than any other). Best vanilla Marine was 20th, best Tau was 21st, best IG 23rd (old codex though). There were only two SM, one Tau and one IG in Top 50. So though best Ork was "only" 5th, I don't see the results as evidence of anything else than the Orks seem to have done just fine...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841290.page GMT Your wall trick is nice, and I'll have to remember it. However, since I always bring 30 lootas, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

How do you deal with Lootas backing up BW orks?

(P.S. This is a serious question, as I am starting an IG army soon, to go along side my Eldar, DA and Orks)[/quote]

armor 12 with 4+ cover falls into a really tricky spot for lootas. The average loota shot gets 10 hits, of which only 1.6 glances and 1.6 pens. Cut that in half for cover and you are left with a very slim margin of killy-ness.

Every list I've playtested against has fielded 45 lootas. they go after my screen every time. And it seems like weapons get blown off, I get crew stunned which downgrades to shaken, maybe I lose one. but the screen tends to hold. Its part of what is sometimes very maddening about killing vehicles without ap1. You roll to hit, roll to "wound", maybe there is a cover save. But then there is this new "save" which is the damage table. So many results keep me moving and blocking movement.

Lootas certainly kill some of my tanks every game. But I usually have more than enough fast vehicles left after a round of shooting to shut down BW movement for a turn.

If i feel i need to deal with lootas in a hybrid BW list, I go with some manticore shots. Also, remember that the devildogs, if untouched, are in range of 12" move and souffle on the lootas, but usually they don't make it past turn 2. Realistically, they (lootas) are hard for anyone to deal with. I tend to take out one full unit of them and then let the rest go to town on me. Just tough to deal 30 wounds to T4 models that are 40+" away.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/841321.page GMT
No I don't. I'm suggesting that Orks wouldn't do so well if everyone brought hard lists to tourneys. It's vastly different.

[quote]but that entire supposition is based on the idea that Orks don't have an answer to AV14.[/quote]

No it's not. Not entirely. Please try to keep up.

[quote]I just think that you're attempting to turn your opinion, which is fact-less and largely based on contrived beliefs about how 40k should be played into an actual "side" when there simply is neither grounds nor merit for your beliefs.[/quote]

This is wrong. It's made wronger because your thinking is predicated on a fallacy. See above. You need to sort that out before we can really start dialogue-ing in any meaningful way. If you've read everything I've said and still think I'm bashing Orks based solely on the fact that they have no answer to AV14, well... I dunno what to tell you.

[quote=Primarch]Thats where I think I am getting confused. How are Stelek's numbers any better/more important than the ones here?[/quote]

Because the ones here are being posted as an addendum to the numbers being posted on Stelek's blog. Unless there's a thread I'm not aware of, three-quarters of the results posted on Stelek's blog don't appear on this site at all.

[quote]I think, you'd have to combine both lists, and cross out the dual posts, to get any semblance of a real number. It's fairly obvious that a lot of the posters there agree with you and Stelek, and so, would never take Orks to a tournament.[/quote]

That'd be a silly thing to do if you agreed with me (and Stelek, apparently), because thinking thus you'd probably come to the realisation that Orks are more competetive than they have a right to be and thus can be used to do well at tournaments providing the match-ups fall for you.

That's the mission for Captain Scrudmongler's Scruddy WAAAGH!; to boldly go to ToS 09-10 and do well despite Captain Scrudmongler (that's me!) never having played a game with an Ork army before, thereby proving that a) the competetive 40K scene isn't competetive, and b) Orks are so simplistic that a basic understanding of the game is all that's needed to trounce shoddy opposition with them.

Should have enough to get my Warboss, Big Mek and Nobs Mob this Saturday; watch this space. It's going to be pink, green, and sexy.

[quote]You are right about the local thing, but that also goes for the "meta game". It just doesnt exist in my opinion outisde of your local play area. If the local Meta favors Nids, they will do well, if they move on from there to a meta that doesnt favor Nids, then they will do poorly. There is no national "meta" to speak of, just little pockets of meta everywhere.[/quote]

QFT, with caveat; even local meta can be cut through by hard lists. If the meta in your area favours Nids,

[quote=Backfire]Well hmm...looking at results, there were 8 Ork armies in Top 20, and 14 in Top 50 (more than any other). Best vanilla Marine was 20th, best Tau was 21st, best IG 23rd (old codex though). There were only two SM, one Tau and one IG in Top 50. So though best Ork was "only" 5th, I don't see the results as evidence of anything else than the Orks seem to have done just fine...[/quote]

Please re-read the thread and understand the discussion taking place around it. Primarch/ Clay has taken the time to do it, why can't you?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843292.page GMT
It's a game with the human factor- hypothetical statistics can only be taken so far. Statistics cannot deal with the "human" factor.

I can wax lyrical all day long about how LIVERPOOL football club is statistically better than EVERTON, they have more valuable players, a bigger squad, more money and so on. However, add a dash of the human element, and watch Everton beat them 1-0 in the FA cup quarter final. POW! Go ORKS!

Statistics can be made to say anything. I repeat- You can only beat what's in front of you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843338.page GMT
Didn't work for Lennox Lewis' claim to be the best heavyweight of all time and it ain't gonna work here either ;D

[quote]It's a game with the human factor- hypothetical statistics can only be taken so far. Statistics cannot deal with the "human" factor.[/quote]

It's also a game with a rigid set of rules that don't deviate (... much) between games, standardised and strictly regulated methods by which models interact with the board and other models, and dice. In such an environment the human factor only comes into play when we're talking about the ability to play to and through the rules and processes of the game; people who can do that run hard lists, because they know that while they may not be able to deal their own hand, they can at least stack the deck in their favour.

[quote]I can wax lyrical all day long about how LIVERPOOL football club is statistically better than EVERTON, they have more valuable players, a bigger squad, more money and so on. However, add a dash of the human element, and watch Everton beat them 1-0 in the FA cup quarter final. POW![/quote]

If footy was a turn-based sport this might be a reasonable analogy. It's not, so it's not.

EDIT: David Moyes is an onion-head.

[quote]Statistics can be made to say anything.[/quote]

So can maxims ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843376.page GMT [quote=Backfire]Well hmm...looking at results, there were 8 Ork armies in Top 20, and 14 in Top 50 (more than any other). Best vanilla Marine was 20th, best Tau was 21st, best IG 23rd (old codex though). There were only two SM, one Tau and one IG in Top 50. So though best Ork was "only" 5th, I don't see the results as evidence of anything else than the Orks seem to have done just fine...[/quote]

Please re-read the thread and understand the discussion taking place around it. Primarch/ Clay has taken the time to do it, why can't you?[/quote]

Honestly, I can't understand how that particular result proves anything else that the Orks are (or at least were, at the time of that tournament) very competive. Whereas the armies which you have claimed to be superior to Orks fared much, much worse. Which leaves me at loss why you even brought that one out. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843416.page GMT
Not all tournament lists are hard, and not all tournament players are either. What I'd like to know is how a Dark Angels player managed to end up sticking it out in the top 10-15 as long as he did. If that's any indication of the quality of the opposition (and, given the fact a Tyranid player finished in the top ten, I believe it is) then it was either a bad field, or I'm missing something in the DA/ Nids and Ork codexes that allows them to whup hard lists. Either these other awesome tournament players were just not ready to face down the awe-inspiring horror of a Lictor, or they weren't running hard lists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843507.page GMT
Frank, I'm not going to write anything lengthy because the post I contributed to this discussion (above) you answered abrasively, refuting nothing I said, and hoping that a condescending tone and accusations of mental slowness would glib over refutations of your fanatical and wildly deluded and skewed view of reality.

Being an ass to people doesn't constitute your own ability to "keep up" with a thread either. This is the part where I bow out because the meaningful things have been said, and you've degenerated a thoughtful discussion into petty name-calling. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843595.page GMT
Part of the problem with responding to individual points by quoting said points is that you miss the forest for the trees. By breaking a post down into individual points, you fail to address the point made by the entire post. That's why no one does that in the real world, because in the real world people can read and write well enough to follow all sides of a discussion. Likewise nobody needs to quote entire posts in their own posts because, as I've pointed out, people are literate enough to read a conversation without parts of it being repeated in their entirety.

Quoting other people's posts, and breaking them down into a series of disconnected quotations, to which you append your own disconnected non sequitors, demonstrates not only an inability to digest and analyze information, but also an inability to evaluate and synthesize your own ideas. Simply address the poster whose post you are addressing, and get on with composing your own thesis or counter-thesis the way you would compose any essay.

By following the standard format of thesis statement, argument, and re-statement of thesis, you can make the content of your posts clear, as well as better develop your own positions and arguments. At the least, it will make your posts more legible, and more interesting to read. Proof-reading and multiple drafts will go a long way to improving the quality of your posts. If people have a problem with "blocks of text", then maybe they should go find some activity that doesn't require stuff like reading... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843652.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843693.page GMT
F is for friends who do things together.
U is for U and ME
N is for anything and anytime at all, down here at my game tourn-ey. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843814.page GMT
F is for friends who do things together.
U is for U and ME
N is for anything and anytime at all, down here at my game tourn-ey. [/quote]

Amen brother!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/843994.page GMT
F is for friends who do things together.
U is for U and ME
N is for anything and anytime at all, down here at my game tourn-ey. [/quote]

Amen brother![/quote]

Ditto]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844335.page GMT U is for U and ME
N is for anything and anytime at all, down here at my game tourn-ey. [/quote]
F is for Fire that burns down the whole town.
U is for URANIUM...BOMBS!
N is for No survivors when you're-
Here at the game tourn-ey!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844394.page GMT
Frank, I'm not going to write anything lengthy because the post I contributed to this discussion (above) you answered abrasively,[/quote]

I don't think it was abrasive at all. Obviously some people are more sensitive than others.

[quote]refuting nothing I said,[/quote]

Everything you said was predicated on your assumption that my standpoint is "Orks suck because they can't deal with AV14". That your opinions revolve around a misconception makes them self-defeating; I'm not going to waste time refuting things that refute themselves.

[quote]and hoping that a condescending tone and accusations of mental slowness would glib over refutations of your fanatical and wildly deluded and skewed view of reality.[/quote]

Aw, petal :( Reread, cogitate and digest the thread properly, then comment, and I promise I'll try not to hurt your feelings again.

[quote]Being an ass[/quote]

Namecalling; I call shenanigans!

Here's a digested version of what I actually said to you, coated in as much sugar as possible; what you're bringing to the party is the assumption that I think Orks suck because they can't deal with AV14. That is demonstrably incorrect, and that'll become clear to you if you re-read the thread.

Obviously you don't want to do that, and I've regurgitated my opinions often enough for one lifetime so I'm not going to do it again, so perhaps bowing out is the best thing to do.


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[quote=indigo_jones]After wasting far too long of my life reading this hissy fit of a thread,[/quote]

... you decided to waste more of your life by typing out a big wall of hissy text decrying it? Well done to you!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/844975.page GMT
F is for friends who do things together.
U is for U and ME
N is for anything and anytime at all, down here at my game tourn-ey. [/quote]

I think you forget that some people enjoy this aspect of the hobby. I.E. coming on a forum and debating the finer aspects of the hobby. It doesn't make the hobby any less fun for them, and I for one think it's a good thing that people have a lot of passion for the hobby.

Although I also think some people take it tooo far.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845008.page GMT

You say this, which I agree with....But wouldn't it also be fair to look at it in reverse? 3/4 of the results posted on Stelek's blog don't appear here at all? If they did, then this site's numbers would be more accurate.



[quote][b]That'd be a silly thing to do if you agreed with me (and Stelek, apparently), because thinking thus you'd probably come to the realisation that Orks are more competetive than they have a right to be and thus can be used to do well at tournaments providing the match-ups fall for you. [/b][/quote]


I guess I hadn't thought of it that way, but I doubt the majority of the Stelek followers would use that logic. As much as they trash talk Orks in general, they wouldn't be caught dead playing them.



[quote][b]Not all tournament lists are hard, and not all tournament players are either. What I'd like to know is how a Dark Angels player managed to end up sticking it out in the top 10-15 as long as he did. If that's any indication of the quality of the opposition (and, given the fact a Tyranid player finished in the top ten, I believe it is) then it was either a bad field, or I'm missing something in the DA/ Nids and Ork codexes that allows them to whup hard lists. Either these other awesome tournament players were just not ready to face down the awe-inspiring horror of a Lictor, or they weren't running hard lists.[/b][/quote]


Ok Frank, you've just lost me again. You say that Orks should not be a competitive army(correct me if I have your premise wrong), but that they are in fact competitive because of the environment, that being that 40k just isn't competitve as a whole on the tournament scene. Then, you provide results, where the Orks have shown to have scored the highest of all the other races. Including the choices that can make the so called "hard" lists.

You then fall back on the defense that, the only reason Orks did well was because of a poor field, you cite examples of Dark Angels and Tyranids also doing well in the same environment, so that should prove your point. However, couldn't you argue that in fact, Orks are the MOST competitive army in 40k? I mean, according to you(you are about to test your theory), pretty much anyone can show up with Orks and do well in a tournament. Whereas the "hard" armies require a lot more effort to win with. Contain your answer to just the current tournament scene, the one you think is not very competitive at all. In that box, if there was an army that took very little effort to win with, consistently scored high, higher than any other army, then couldn't you reach the conclusion that in fact, the Orks are the most competitive army running right now?



Looking forward to your answer.




Clay

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845078.page GMT Your wall trick is nice, and I'll have to remember it. However, since I always bring 30 lootas, I wouldn't be bothered by it.

How do you deal with Lootas backing up BW orks?

(P.S. This is a serious question, as I am starting an IG army soon, to go along side my Eldar, DA and Orks)[/quote]

We've playtested this scenario numerous times. Most of my 1750 lists involve at least 3 wagons with KFF protection and at least 30 lootas. Some have 45. I even run solitary deffkoptas with rockitts and buzzsaws as anti tank tech.

There simply isn't enough shooting to deal with his horde of vehicles. I can't kill them all fast enough. Once my wagons run into his vehicle wall it's usually over since I'm now forced to wait for the lootas to take down his tanks or I must disembark which is even worse than just sitting there in a wagon. The open topped nature of battlewagons makes them a lot more fragile than I'd like, especially when he can easily get side armor shots because of how narrow their front armor side is.

So yeah lootas do some damage but they can only shoot at one vehicle a turn and that isn't a guaranteed destroy result.

Note we don't play with the deffrolla vs. vehicle ruling. If we did that could change the dynamic of the strategy as the vehicle wall would be much less effective if I get to actually steamroll his banewolves.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845166.page GMT
Well yeah, it'd be fair to say that; but it should go without saying really, shouldn't it? If the same numbers appeared here then Dakka's results would be just as useful a barometer as Stelek's blog, common sense tells us that. The results don't appear here though, so it's not. Not really.

[quote]I guess I hadn't thought of it that way, but I doubt the majority of the Stelek followers would use that logic. As much as they trash talk Orks in general, they wouldn't be caught dead playing them.[/quote]

Stelek plays Orks. I've seen various posts of his regarding his Orks. I've never tried them myself but they look like a helluva lot of fun, and I defy anyone to say they dislike the SAG Big Mek model.

[quote]Ok Frank, you've just lost me again. You say that Orks should not be a competitive army(correct me if I have your premise wrong), but that they are in fact competitive because of the environment, that being that 40k just isn't competitve as a whole on the tournament scene. Then, you provide results, where the Orks have shown to have scored the highest of all the other races. Including the choices that can make the so called "hard" lists. [/quote]

You've got the premise down; where you're losing it is in the decryption of those results. Yeah the Orks did well. So did Tyranids. And Dark Angels. And there were more than a few Necrons in there too. I could also postulate that, since an estimated 99% of Chaos Marines players are Lash-merchants, the presence of so many CSM players in the results also attests to the low quality of the opposition; however that'd be conjectural since no army lists are available and a lot of hard lists can be built using the CSM Codex.

The same cannot be said of the Tyranids, Necrons or Dark Angels books. How else did players using these armies place so well if their opposition didn't suck?

[quote]However, couldn't you argue that in fact, Orks are the MOST competitive army in 40k?[/quote]

Assuming their opposition is rubbish, yeah. They're a lot more forgiving to play than almost any other Codex in 40K whilst also being quite dangerous to the uninitiated opponent; the sight of 180 Orks deploying for a 1500pt game will cause some people to panic. People who know what those 180 Orks are capable of will shrug it off.

[quote]I mean, according to you(you are about to test your theory), pretty much anyone can show up with Orks and do well in a tournament.[/quote]

Yup.

[quote]Whereas the "hard" armies require a lot more effort to win with.[/quote]

Yup. They require a far more intimate understanding of the general game to run properly; you can have the hardest list in the world, but give it to a player who doesn't understand that Fast Skimmers can't fire weapons when moving Flat Out or AT weapons suck against infantry, or that Hormagaunts aren't something you need to kill but Carnifexes are, etc etc, and he'll fail with it every time.

The same thing cannot be said of Orks. I'm fairly confident that I could take an Ork list to a tournament and do well having never moved a Git in my life before, provided the opposition I face remains the same gaggle of footslogging Storm Troopers and Drop Pod Dreadding nuggets that currently attend GTs.

[quote]Contain your answer to just the current tournament scene, the one you think is not very competitive at all. In that box, if there was an army that took very little effort to win with, consistently scored high, higher than any other army, then couldn't you reach the conclusion that in fact, the Orks are the most competitive army running right now?[/quote]

I'd agree with that. Thing is, though, if people actually started playing for keeps at tourneys the Orks would rapidly disappear from the placings, because they rely on simplicity, ease of use and weak opposition to be competetive. Hard lists rely on their own units being able to deal with anything in order to win games; the Orks rely on the opponent being unable to deal with their units to win games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845245.page GMT
Although I also think some people take it tooo far.

GG[/quote]

I agree with you, the depth and complicated nature of the game, and the discussions that evolve from that are certainly part of the draw of 40k and other similar tabletop games. And of course without passion, what fun would it really be. There is a difference between having passion for a game and being overly invested in its mechanics and its competitiveness. its the reason I don't play competitive magic anymore, and one of the reasons I'm thinking of cancelling my WoW account, people take it too seriously. So what if the orks are an easy army to win with, so what if the tyranids win when on paper they should get rocked? It doesn't really bother me, the data seems to suggest that anyone has a chance to win, which is appealing to me. No one wants 40k to turn into a hot dog eating contest where the same little asian man wins every year, how boring. The fact that anything could happen makes the game interesting, that nids could come out on top and eldar on the bottom. It also keeps the game fresh, if the game played out like it should, there would be no point in actually playing the game, you could just have a judge look at army lists, run some calculations and declare the winner in five minutes. In the end its a game with a dice system, and therefore a game of chance at its core. Weird things are going to happen, David will slay Goliath on occasion, and in my opinion, the game is better for it. People who treat the game like a computer program with fixed inputs and outcomes, then throw a fit when something doesn't go by the numbers are the people who are killing this game and have, at least for me, killed other games like it. People become to invested in the outcomes of the games, as if it meant anything. Damn I'm playing the best list, why aren't I winning all the time?! He's playing a soft list, he should lose everytime, why isnt he?! Certainly play with interest, play to win, but temper that with self awareness, you're playing with toy soldiers in a smelly room with a dozen other dorks like you. Its not important who is the best or worst player there as long as everyone is enjoying themselves. Remember its a game, roll the dice, and relax. Besides, you roll worse when you're angry.

In reference to frank, since I've already wasted my life reading the thread, I might as well have my voice heard. Can't turn back the clock.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845275.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845305.page GMT
Proper assessment of armies is not as simple as many on this thread make it. Some people can use tournaments as an example but others will dismiss it those results.

Another form of assessment is looking at the codex and using math to determine what is most point efficient but it doesnt take the mission/players/list at hand

My assessment of armies is based on if the army can dominate 2 of the 3 phases of the game.

Orks can dominate any of the 3 phases of the game simple and easy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845339.page GMT
Proper assessment of armies is not as simple as many on this thread make it. Some people can use tournaments as an example but others will dismiss it those results.

Another form of assessment is looking at the codex and using math to determine what is most point efficient but it doesnt take the mission/players/list at hand

My assessment of armies is based on if the army can dominate 2 of the 3 phases of the game.

Orks can dominate any of the 3 phases of the game simple and easy. [/quote]

Surely that's far more unscientific since it too doesn't take into account the set-up of the board or the opponent's Codex, let alone the players involved or the opponent's army list.

EDIT: Also, how do you define domination in terms of the shooting and movement phases?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845357.page GMT
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

If you've got access to an official national 'Ard Boyz listing I'd be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise this is probably as close as we get for the time being. [/quote]

From what I can tell Dakka has many more results than there are on Stelek's blog. Here is the data from the Dakka results thread (this is a list of armies that made the semifinals):

UPDATED COUNTS (this thread only):
Space Marines -- 35
Orks -- 31
Imperial Guard -- 18
Chaos Marines -- 20
Eldar -- 16
Chaos Daemons -- 13
Tyranids -- 17
Tau -- 9
Space Wolves -- 5
Necrons -- 6
Blood Angels -- 4
Demon Hunters -- 1
Black Templars -- 4
Dark Eldar -- 4
Dark Angels -- 1 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845361.page GMT
Surely that's far more unscientific since it too doesn't take into account the set-up of the board or the opponent's Codex, let alone the players involved or the opponent's army list.

EDIT: Also, how do you define domination in terms of the shooting and movement phases?[/quote]

Well im not much for scientific research over a game of toy soldiers. I just see 40k more as a game where as many people treat this as a simulation.

This game is simply broken down into 3 phases: Movement, Shooting, Assault

Orks can dominate the movement phase by using mass battlewagons or bike spam, special abilities such as snikrot's flank march ability can work as well in restricting the movements of the opposing army. You also have the run rule or the waaaagh special rule that can cover the board in no time. Domination of the movement phase can be accomplished too by controlling the battlefield and with 180 orks, that is pretty simple to take up the board. As for shooting, Orks dominate it with volume of fire along with protection from return fire with the introduction of coversaves in 5th and the use of KFF to protect ork forces on their way to target. IMO Orks are weakest in assault due to combat resolution that can kill way more orks than shooting could.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845404.page GMT
Frank, don't take either of the following statements the wrong way:

A) It's about time you got around to making a legitimate point as to what is actually "wrong" with the Orks.

B) I agree with you 100%, you're absolutely right about that being the difference between what you consider "hard" and the Orks.

From my experiences, Orks don't actually kill everything, they kill what they can and survive the rest. A smart player will do the same thing with any army: Example-- an Eldar force has had every one of their AT weapons glanced off by destroyers, but hold 4/5 objectives, there's really no need to move a unit off of an objective to try and go pin a haywire grenade or two onto the monolith across the field. By that same token, an Ork army pushes forward and literally denies table access in order to keep nasty units out of the fight. The difference is that where other armies avoid the fights they can't win, an Ork will intentionally engage the same target and tie it up, keeping it from threatening the rest of the table.

Yes, you can probably win a lot of games with Orks just by weight of numbers, and the army doesn't have any one unit that is truly an answer to anything. The difference is that Ork units aren't "hard" by your definition unless you want to count a PowerKlaw with 30 ablative wounds or riding a fast vehicle that can potentially scatter closer to the intended target when destroyed able to deal with anything, but the army list as a whole can be. Yes, a Big Mek can dish out a lot of damage, and so can a squadron of Kans. But make the right choices, and suddenly the synergy of the list becomes a force multiplier, as a Kustom Force Field for the Mek takes away all of his serious damage capabilities, but gives the surrounding units like the aforementioned Kans much more survivability and damage output. Stormboyz will get torn apart relatively quickly for their points, and a big mob of thirty Boyz has trouble reaching the enemy lines at anywhere near full strength. But combine the two, and those Stormboyz can be sacrificed tie up a unit or two long enough to get the rest of the army up close where they can do their work.

Orks have the potential to be a very competitive codex not from what an individual unit can do (such as a tactical squad with a powerfist, flamer, and multimelta), but with a synergy throughout the list to let units work together, compliment each other, and sacrifice themselves to improve the position of the army or prevent the enemy from doing the same. I might lose 10-20 Boyz to Flechettes in the process, but I will bring down that Hammerhead, and stop it from shelling my lines, even if I would only lose another 5-10 or so to the same tank in the game's remaining turns. Why? Not because I'm pushing bodies forward, not because I want to see the tank go down out of pride, not because I'm a pushover player that likes sacrificing models, but because I know which of my units matter to my plan and which don't.

You take the average Joe Ork and put him up against John Space Marine, and all things being equal, Joe and John not being very good at making lists or carrying out a battleplan, and Joe Ork is probably going to come out on top so long as he remembers what the objectives are and doesn't get carried away. I'm not the average Joe ork though. From what I understand, neither is Dashofpepper or any number of other Ork players that have contributed their views in this thread. We are competitive... nay beyond that, dominant. And because of this, I believe that as the competition steps up and begins to rise to the challenge, even if we do not remain dominant, we will continue to be a Tier 1, competitive force for some time to come.

Several people will disagree with these statements, and you are well within your rights to do so. When you do, I will simply smile and nod, consider your points about what makes Orks a tier 3 army, why they're barely competitive, and then I'll go play some more. And win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845410.page GMT
B) I agree with you 100%, you're absolutely right about that being the difference between what you consider "hard" and the Orks.[/quote]

I believe his point is that if hard lists can deal with anything, and Ork lists depend on opposing armies not being able to deal with specific units in order to win, then it stands to reason that hard lists can deal with said units and thus always trump Ork lists.

Strangely, you seem to agree with this assertion but then go on to disagree with what logically extends from that premise (that Ork are not "hard", i.e., competitive).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845430.page GMT
QFT]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845461.page GMT
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/ard-boyz.html

If you've got access to an official national 'Ard Boyz listing I'd be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise this is probably as close as we get for the time being. [/quote]

From what I can tell Dakka has many more results than there are on Stelek's blog. Here is the data from the Dakka results thread (this is a list of armies that made the semifinals):

UPDATED COUNTS (this thread only):
Space Marines -- 35
Orks -- 31
Imperial Guard -- 18
Chaos Marines -- 20
Eldar -- 16
Chaos Daemons -- 13
Tyranids -- 17
Tau -- 9
Space Wolves -- 5
Necrons -- 6
Blood Angels -- 4
Demon Hunters -- 1
Black Templars -- 4
Dark Eldar -- 4
Dark Angels -- 1 [/quote]

So basically, Orks enjoyed greater success than Tyranids, Necrons, and Daemonhunters (and Tau, Eldar, and Chaos). Wasn't Frank trying to explain that the presence of qualifying tyranid/necron/DH lists somehow disqualifies any success orks might have in the semis? I think the fact that Orks rival only Vulcanspam in these results suggests that the army might be competitive. Results like this don't look like a 3rd tier army sneaking through a tournament full of scrubs.


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[quote=Danny Internets][quote]A) It's about time you got around to making a legitimate point as to what is actually "wrong" with the Orks.

B) I agree with you 100%, you're absolutely right about that being the difference between what you consider "hard" and the Orks.[/quote]

I believe his point is that if hard lists can deal with anything, and Ork lists depend on opposing armies not being able to deal with specific units in order to win, then it stands to reason that hard lists can deal with said units and thus always trump Ork lists.

Strangely, you seem to agree with this assertion but then go on to disagree with what logically extends from that premise (that Ork are not "hard", i.e., competitive).[/quote]

Actually, he's trying to [i]distinguish between[/i] Fugger's definition of hard/competitive and his own definition of hard/competitive. Whether or not being competitive can be seen as a logical extension from what Fugger is saying is a matter of debate. Tau, for example, have no effective way to deal with hordes (like horde orks or gaunt hordes) and therefore do not fall into Fugger's definition of competitive, even though he takes the fact that they are seemingly for granted. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845479.page GMT 40k more as a game where as many people treat this as a simulation. [/quote]

Scientific as in "objective and based in demonstrable fact", rather than scientific as in "meticulously measured and tested to death". You don't need beakers to be scientific about something.

[quote]This game is simply broken down into 3 phases: Movement, Shooting, Assault

Orks can dominate the movement phase by using mass battlewagons or bike spam, special abilities such as snikrot's flank march ability can work as well in restricting the movements of the opposing army. You also have the run rule or the waaaagh special rule that can cover the board in no time. Domination of the movement phase can be accomplished too by controlling the battlefield and with 180 orks, that is pretty simple to take up the board.[/quote]

The thing with all this is, apart from stuff like fielding hordes and Fleeting once per game, most other armies can do all of these things to a far more potent extent than the Orks. Marines and Eldar can Bike-spam. Marines, Daemonhunters and Guard can tank-spam. Eldar and Deldar can Fleet (and they can do it more than once per game), and most Codexes have some unit or other that can Outflank. Sure Snikrot's Outflank is different, but unless your opponent fails at 5th Ed and has something sitting back-field waiting to be gribbled then it's not massively useful. I'll give you that 180 Orks can take up the board, but they're only Orks. T4 and a 6+ save is hardly inspiring, and neither is S3(4) attacks against even AV10; even en masse. Assuming you get near my vehicles to begin with.

So yeah, none of this stuff is particularly novel or impressive in the grand scheme of things, and I'd hardly say any of it amounts to dominance.

[quote]As for shooting, Orks dominate it with volume of fire along with protection from return fire with the introduction of coversaves in 5th and the use of KFF to protect ork forces on their way to target.[/quote]

Again, other armies can do this too, only they tend to do it better. Guard have more shots and a better chance of hitting with them, and it's hard to keep a 30-man Mob in cover; a ten man Tac Squad not so much.

[quote]IMO Orks are weakest in assault due to combat resolution that can kill way more orks than shooting could.[/quote]

Considering the entire army is based on WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE that seems like a strange conclusion to reach. Not entirely unwarranted, but strange nonetheless.

[quote=Malecus][quote=Frank Fugger]Hard lists rely on their own units being able to deal with anything in order to win games; the Orks rely on the opponent being unable to deal with their units to win games.[/quote]

Frank, don't take either of the following statements the wrong way:

A) It's about time you got around to making a legitimate point as to what is actually "wrong" with the Orks.[/quote]

What Danny Internets said. Also what I've been saying since page 1 of this thread.


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[quote=dumbuket]So basically, Orks enjoyed greater success than Tyranids, Necrons, and Daemonhunters (and Tau, Eldar, and Chaos). Wasn't Frank trying to explain that the presence of qualifying tyranid/necron/DH lists somehow disqualifies any success orks might have in the semis? I think the fact that Orks rival only Vulcanspam in these results suggests that the army might be competitive. Results like this don't look like a 3rd tier army sneaking through a tournament full of scrubs.[/quote]

13 Daemons, 17 Tyranids and 6 Necron players also got through. The presence of such still devalues the Orks' success; numbers don't really enter into it.

Also, doesn't it seem a bit strange that the most popular army is also the best represented in round 2? Maybe they were all playing Vulkan Bikers.

[quote]Actually, he's trying to [i]distinguish between[/i] Fugger's definition of hard/competitive and his own definition of hard/competitive. Whether or not being competitive can be seen as a logical extension from what Fugger is saying is a matter of debate.[/quote]

Seems logical to me. Competetive Codexes will remain competetive even if the opposition is playing for keeps using a hard list. That doesn't happen, though, and so the Orks produce good numbers at tournaments. Tyranids do too, apparently; not as good as Orks, but they're still well represented considering they're a scrub Codex.

Trying to claim that a Codex is hard based purely on a bunch of numbers in a table isn't very subjective.

[quote]Tau, for example, have no effective way to deal with hordes (like horde orks or gaunt hordes) and therefore do not fall into Fugger's definition of competitive, even though he takes the fact that they are seemingly for granted. [/quote]

I dunno, 30-40 S7+ shots per turn plus a couple of Blasts, plus the Broadsides and Pirhanas, plus the Kroot, plus the Smart Missiles, plus... yeah, it all adds up. Seems like a lot of shooting to me. Is it enough to deal with 180 Orks before they can get into combat with the Kroot? Maybe not, but does it really need to be?

It might also be worth noting that horde armies are not "hard".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845515.page GMT


I must be dense or something. According to Manimal(I think), there are far more results posted here, than on Stelek's blog. I still can't see why the numbers there mean so much more to you than the numbers here? It doesnt matter that the results from here aren't there, the numbers from there aren't here either. I will stick to my statement above. You would have to gather all the numbers from there, then add them to these numbers to get a solid single number of results that we can use.

Right?



Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845597.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845597.page GMT
I am going to first say that I am in no way an expert in 40k, nor will I claim to be. I just play for the challenge of going against the best players in my area and around the nation if I am playing at GTs/Indy GTs.

As for objective facts:

Fact: Orks swept the 2008 GT season in the US
Fact: The GT circuit winner of 2008 played with orks
Fact: I good player can make a good army better

As for other armies that can tank/bike spam: I do agree that many armies have much of wha the orks have but Orks have a few distinct advantages over other armies.

Vehicles: Most of the vehicles orks have are fast and are cheap. Orks also can take advantage of mounting a KFF giving said vehicles a mobile coversave that most other armies fail to have (Imperial Vehicles) or have to go flat out (DE and Eldar), or can but too but limited range (Tau disruption pods). Grot Riggers can bring an ork vehicle previously thought out of commission, back into the game.

Bikes: Ork bikes come with a coversave attached to them over others whom have to turboboost.

In regards to shooting:

The reason I say orks dominate in the shooting phase is because while they are now currently outshot by guard, their survivability against most of the weapons guard diminishes their firepower. Once again KFF will provide a save against most weapons while Mad Dok Grosnik can confer FNP to the front unit while giving the rear units a cover save. Domination of the shooting phase doesnt just mean having more guns than your opponent but it also means the denial of the full potential of his weapons and minimizing the damage done.

As for the weakness in HtH, remember orks are still I2, S3, T4 with a wifebeater save. A dedicated assault unit can inflict enough casualties on an ork unit to make them lose combat and force plenty of saves through no retreat.

While some armies can fleet always, the orks only need 1 turn for fleet, the rest of the time, they can simply run if needed or move n shoot. What other armies dont have is a Ghazkull to ensure a 6 inch fleet. You also forget that wyrd boyz have a random power that can give the ork army another waaagh, Just to correct you on your statement of them only having 1 fleet roll.

What makes Orks dangerous is the synergy of the armylist that allows for units to perform better than normally or survive better. KFF, Mad Dok Grosnik, and Ghazkull enhance the army.

Peace, Godbless and dont roll unless its for ld tests]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845658.page GMT
I am going to first say that I am in no way an expert in 40k, nor will I claim to be. I just play for the challenge of going against the best players in my area and around the nation if I am playing at GTs/Indy GTs.

As for objective facts:

Fact: Orks swept the 2008 GT season in the US
Fact: The GT circuit winner of 2008 played with orks
Fact: I good player can make a good army better

As for other armies that can tank/bike spam: I do agree that many armies have much of wha the orks have but Orks have a few distinct advantages over other armies.


Vehicles: Most of the vehicles orks have are fast and are cheap. Orks also can take advantage of mounting a KFF giving said vehicles a mobile coversave that most other armies fail to have (Imperial Vehicles) or have to go flat out (DE and Eldar), or can but too but limited range (Tau disruption pods). Grot Riggers can bring an ork vehicle previously thought out of commission, back into the game.[/quote]

From a practical point of view. Getting cover saves with guard or marine or imperium armies is quite easy using smoke launchers or leap frog tactics. The KFF save isn't really an advantage as it is a necessity to be on par with other armies.

Ork vehicles are also far more fragile than imperium vehicles. Trukks are only armor 10 where chimeras or rhinos are 12 or 11 in the front. Battlewagon's are a pricier alternative but the AR 14 is easy to get around because of how narrow the vehicle is. They generally aren't much more sturdy than a 50 point chimera and are twice the cost not to mention eating a heavy slot. All ork vehicles are open topped which makes them explode far more often than other vehicles.

I don't consider the ork vehicle selection to be any kind of advantage. Trukks and Wagons are decent and I don't think they suck, but I certainly don't think are they are superior to guard chimeras or even rhinos point for point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845696.page GMT
I agree that Chimeras are far more superior than trukks. But smoke launchers are only for a round and ork vehicles can also leapfrog as well. BW taking a heavy slot isint a big deal and dont forget that Nobs can buy a BW as a dedicated transport. Orks do have wargear to close the top of said vehicles (works better for the BW than trukks).

Thanks for bringing up a good point Kevin. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845712.page GMT You've got the premise down; where you're losing it is in the decryption of those results. Yeah the Orks did well. So did Tyranids. And Dark Angels. And there were more than a few Necrons in there too. I could also postulate that, since an estimated 99% of Chaos Marines players are Lash-merchants, the presence of so many CSM players in the results also attests to the low quality of the opposition; however that'd be conjectural since no army lists are available and a lot of hard lists can be built using the CSM Codex.

The same cannot be said of the Tyranids, Necrons or Dark Angels books. How else did players using these armies place so well if their opposition didn't suck?
[/quote]

Are you still talking about UK GT? If so, there were just two Tyranid players in Top 50, one Necron and no Dark Angels... [url=http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2450114_2009_Warhammer_40K_Throne_of_Skulls_Winners.pdf](results here)[/url]

Really, since Ork seemed to be so popular there, and assuming they lose to AV14...shouldn't it logically mean that Land Raider lists ought to do well, since they had so many helpless Ork opponents to crush?




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[quote=Frank Fugger]
I dunno, 30-40 S7+ shots per turn plus a couple of Blasts, plus the Broadsides and Pirhanas, plus the Kroot, plus the Smart Missiles, plus... yeah, it all adds up. Seems like a lot of shooting to me. Is it enough to deal with 180 Orks before they can get into combat with the Kroot? Maybe not, but does it really need to be?
[/quote]

See, it's comments like this which make me think you have not actually played Tau. Sure they have all that stuff in the Codex. But Tau stuff tends to be expensive. You can tune your army to face horde, or face Mech, but it is hard to make it able to face both. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845741.page GMT 40k player with a big mouth. As soon as he started calling orks a "noobhammer" he lost me. If you want a forgiving army that plays itself, you don't play orks. They sell space marines for that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/845796.page GMT
Right?[/quote]

If I knew where those numbers came from I'd be more inclined to accept them at face value. They're still not indicative of Orky competetiveness, but at least I'd be able to corroborate them for myself.

Even without corroboration, the fact 13 Daemons players managed to make the second round speaks volumes of the quality of the field. This is an army which fails against bolters and meltabombs, which is easily able to fill out most of it's FoC slots at 1250pts (try it, it's fun!), which can take a maximum of 3 vehicles (all Walkers) and which has a distinctive CC bent but must arrive on the board by Deep Strike. There's so much wrong with the Daemons Codex it's untrue; yet there are 13 Daemons players through to round 2. Either they've found some previously unknown way to make the Codex not suck against hard players, or the opposition was poor.

[quote=thehod] As for objective facts:

Fact: Orks swept the 2008 GT season in the US
Fact: The GT circuit winner of 2008 played with orks
Fact: I good player can make a good army better[/quote]

I won't dispute any of these things; what I will say is that none of these things are particularly indicative of the Codex's quality. Especially not the last one; a good player can make a good army better, but he can also make a cruddy one good in the face of poor opposition.

I also think the concept of dominating game phases = competetive is flawed. Grey Knights can arguably dominate all three phases at the same time in each and every turn. If you look at it objectively Orks can do the same thing; they can throw out a lot of shots, have various means by which to protect themselves against return fire, most of their weapons are Assault weapons and they will chew up a lot of armies in CC.

Fact is that throwing either army against a hard list, which can't out-and-out "dominate" phases (you'll never get as many shots from a Raider squad as you would from a load of Shoota Boyz in a Battlewagon, f'rinstance) but which doesn't need to as it's able to dictate how their opponent's phases will play out, well that's just going to end in tears.

[quote=Backfire]Are you still talking about UK GT? If so, there were just two Tyranid players in Top 50, one Necron and no Dark Angels... [url=http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2450114_2009_Warhammer_40K_Throne_of_Skulls_Winners.pdf](results here)[/url]

Really, since Ork seemed to be so popular there, and assuming they lose to AV14...shouldn't it logically mean that Land Raider lists ought to do well, since they had so many helpless Ork opponents to crush?[/quote]

Number one; get off AV14. That was a thread and a half ago. We've already established that is but one of the problems the Orks face.

Number two; quality, not quantity. Sure only a single Tyranid player made it into the top ten, but if the other players had been running hard lists even he wouldn't've been there. Neither would the 4 Ork players, nor any CSM Lash merchant.

[quote]See, it's comments like this which make me think you have not actually played Tau. Sure they have all that stuff in the Codex. But Tau stuff tends to be expensive. You can tune your army to face horde, or face Mech, but it is hard to make it able to face both. [/quote]

Not really, considering you can be dropping Submunitions on the horde from across the board and anything that comes within 36-24 inches is liable to get beaned with as much Plasma, Missiles and Smart Missiles as you've got Suits and vehicles. Multi-Trackers are pretty cool considering how cheap they are. Then of course there's the Kroot to consider.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846679.page GMT [quote]People were saying you were acting like a dick... well, because you were acting like a dick.[/quote]

Yeah, that wasn't good. Then again I was led to believe that this was a forum of grown-ups; it's apparently not (and I don't mean that in an insulting or derogatory way - simply that there are a lot of younger members here too), and I'll factor that into my dealings from now on.

Well, most of the time.[/quote]

Friend, even "grown-ups" don't like it when you act like a dick.

Actually, I think "grown-ups" like it even less when you act like a dick.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846703.page GMT
Actually, I think "grown-ups" like it even less when you act like a dick.[/quote]

It's telling that you put grown-ups in quotation marks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846877.page GMT
This topic was an interesting one.

If it could stay on topic, that would be great.

Please remember Dakka's Rule 1.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/846914.page GMT
The numbers came from this thread

[url]http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/247793.page[/url]

I am not claiming this is a definative list of results nor do I claim that I know for certain that everything reported here is true.


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However as far as orky competitiveness is concerned, I believe these results indicate that in an average tournament with variety of army types and player skills the orks are very competitive.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/847277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/847277.page GMT
Game 1 vs. IG w/ Demonhunter allies: Minor Win w/ bonus pts
Game 2 vs. Iyanden Eldar: Minor Win w/ bonus pts
Game 3 vs. IG: Minor Win w/ bonus pts

This tourney was pretty smaller than expected. As a result, there were only 6 players. It had soft scores, and I scored well in both Painting and Sportsmanship.

The armylists weren't completely min/maxed, but neither is mine, so it pretty much was a wash.

In the end, I won Overall by a single point.

Again, mathhammer dictates one thing, but I prefer to play it out on the table. I can't choose whom I compete against and can't write their armylists in a tourney.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848048.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848056.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848071.page GMT
Even without corroboration, the fact 13 Daemons players managed to make the second round speaks volumes of the quality of the field. This is an army which fails against bolters and meltabombs, which is easily able to fill out most of it's FoC slots at 1250pts (try it, it's fun!), which can take a maximum of 3 vehicles (all Walkers) and which has a distinctive CC bent but must arrive on the board by Deep Strike. There's so much wrong with the Daemons Codex it's untrue; yet there are 13 Daemons players through to round 2. Either they've found some previously unknown way to make the Codex not suck against hard players, or the opposition was poor.
[/quote]

Hmm...again, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Daemons done pretty well in tournament scene? So you say they suck too?

Ever thought that perhaps it is you who is wrong, and not the real world...?

[quote=Frank Fugger]
Not really, considering you can be dropping Submunitions on the horde from across the board and anything that comes within 36-24 inches is liable to get beaned with as much Plasma, Missiles and Smart Missiles as you've got Suits and vehicles. Multi-Trackers are pretty cool considering how cheap they are. Then of course there's the Kroot to consider.[/quote]

Lets take the suits for example: assume you've got ten Fireknife suits (Commander + three full Crisis teams). These suits will cost you something like 650+ points. At typical ranges (12 to 24 inch) they will put out 30 S6/S7 shots - but outside of your Commander, they will be at BS3. (you can buy Targeting arrays for your team leaders, but that will cost you more). So you will be looking at maybe 17 hits, causing perhaps 14 wounds - and when you figure in that some of the opponents will be getting cover saves, your suits are lucky to kill ten Ork Boyz per turn. It's not that killy. You can, of course, make your suits more efficient against hordes (AFB, flamers, drones etc.) but that will make them less effective against other opponents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848143.page GMT
Which sort of lends credence to what I'm saying. Although if you COULD do those things, would you choose to compete against the bearded Mechdar bloke with the Bolt-Thrower t-shirt, or the kid who brought his Superfriends?

[quote=Manimal]However as far as orky competitiveness is concerned, I believe these results indicate that in an average tournament with variety of army types and player skills the orks are very competitive.[/quote]

Which suggests that in the current climate of competetive 40K the Orks do well. Something I've been saying all along. Awesome.

You might as well ignore the numbers; unless there's some way to find out how many players of each army actually entered the heats they're pretty much meaningless. Por ejemplo, 35 Smurf players got through. I know precisely 1 40K player who doesn't own some form of Smurf army. Conversely, I know about 3 players who haven't ever owned an Ork army. I'm one of them.

[quote=Backfire]Hmm...again, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't Daemons done pretty well in tournament scene? So you say they suck too?[/quote]

I am indeed, for all the reasons I gave you just there.

[quote]Ever thought that perhaps it is you who is wrong, and not the real world...?[/quote]

Are you trying to say that Daemons are a competetive army?

[quote]Lets take the suits for example: assume you've got ten Fireknife suits (Commander + three full Crisis teams). These suits will cost you something like 650+ points.[/quote]

Yeah. So what? 650+pts ain't bad considering I can move them into Rapid Fire range, shoot, then move them back out again in the same turn. How's non-Fleet stuff supposed to catch me?

[quote]At typical ranges (12 to 24 inch) they will put out 30 S6/S7 shots - but outside of your Commander, they will be at BS3. (you can buy Targeting arrays for your team leaders, but that will cost you more).[/quote]

And that's bad because.... Tau vehicles cost a lot? Their Troops are humongosly expensive?....

[quote]So you will be looking at maybe 17 hits, causing perhaps 14 wounds - and when you figure in that some of the opponents will be getting cover saves, your suits are lucky to kill ten Ork Boyz per turn. It's not that killy. You can, of course, make your suits more efficient against hordes (AFB, flamers, drones etc.) but that will make them less effective against other opponents.[/quote]

At this point I have to ask; are the Suits all I'm allowed to use? Because I have this 1500pt net-deck list here you see, and it's got 2 Multi-Trackered Hammerheads, 2 Broadsides, a unit of Pathfinders, a Multi-Trackered PF Devilfish with my cruddy mandatory Fire Warriors in it, plus 20 Kroot and 9 Fireknife suits. Well, 8 Fireknife suits and a Commander. I think in total that gives me 2 Submunitions, 18 MP shots, 9-18 Plasma shots, 20 Smart Missiles, plus God knows what else the Drones and Kroot and Fire Warriors are carrying per turn, and some Markerlights. Oh, and all the Suits and Vehicles have lovely Targeting Arrays on them so they're all BS4. It seems very shooty to me, but of course I could be wrong. Maybe if I throw out the Pathfinders and add a couple of shooty Pirhanas, or throw out the Broadsides as well, stick another Hammerhead in there AND some shooty Pirhanas?... I dunno.

Maybe you're right. I mean, it's not like the horde player is going to deploy as close to me as possible because his sod-awful shooting won't cut it and he needs to get into CC with stuff in order to stand a chance of killing it is it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848274.page GMT MP shots and 9-18 Plasma shots? You'd be losing one or the other on at least 5 models (assuming 3 team leaders and the commander). Let's give you all the shots you've claimed and see how many orks behind a KFF you kill shall we. Just mathhammer since that seems to be what you base most things off of.

I'll give you 5 Orks hit per submunition shot.

2 Submunition:10 Hits-9 Wounds-6 Dead Orks, 4.5 w/4+ Cover
18 MP Shots-12 Hits-10 Wounds-6.66 Dead Orks, 5 w/4+
18 Plasma-12 Hits-10 Wounds-6.66 Dead Orks, 5 w/4+
20 Smart Missiles-13 Hits-11 Wounds-8 Dead Orks- 5.5 w/4+

Congrats dude, all your shooting has killed 27 Orks, 20 if they have a 4+ save. That is assuming you get all your shots and that all are BS4. Tau don't fair well in a horde situation. Granted using the markerlights could mean you kill a whole squad instead of leaving 3-10 orks but your using over 1k points to kill 220pts.

And your suggestions to make it more "shooty" leave you much more vulnerable to other lists. So you pointing out you can change your list to beat orks doesn't make orks bad. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848321.page GMT MP shots and 9-18 Plasma shots? You'd be losing one or the other on at least 5 models (assuming 3 team leaders and the commander).[/quote]

OK maybe not ALL of the Suits have Targeting Arrays. In fact lets say only one Suit has a Targeting Array, because I forgot. Still a lot of shots, innit? Not more than, say... a mob of 30 Slugga Boyz, but then again mine aren't S4, hitting on 5s and 12" in range.

[quote]Let's give you all the shots you've claimed and see how many orks behind a KFF you kill shall we. Just mathhammer since that seems to be what you base most things off of....[/quote]

Some time later....

[quote]Congrats dude, all your shooting has killed 27 Orks, 20 if they have a 4+ save. That is assuming you get all your shots and that all are BS4. Tau don't fair well in a horde situation. Granted using the markerlights could mean you kill a whole squad instead of leaving 3-10 orks but your using over 1k points to kill 220pts.[/quote]

While your army is doing what, exactly? Moving 6" towards me each turn? Oh no wait, there's WAAAGH! to consider also; good job I've got my Multi-Trackers on, otherwise I'd never be able to escape the 6"+D6" fury!

But that's just Orks, innit? What about a big Guard Horde with Priests and Commissars, or horde Eldar with Guardians and a big old Avatar, or maybe even some Tyranids? Meh... here's some Submunitions for your Command Squads/ Railguns for your Avatar/ Synapse Creatures. Enjoy your Instinctive Behaviour, Ld test failures, and being guided off the board by my Suits (PF Devilfish Deep Striking, it's the wave of the future). As for the rest of you here's some more Submunitions for you to eat.

[quote]And your suggestions to make it more "shooty" leave you much more vulnerable to other lists. So you pointing out you can change your list to beat orks doesn't make orks bad. [/quote]

It's not a tailored list; it's a NetDeck ripped from one of Stelek's "Best Of" lists. Seriously; if you're tailoring a list to beat hordes, and I mean seriously tailoring it SPECIFICALLY to kill lots of low-grade infantry every turn, you use Flamers and Cyclic Ion Blasters and Airburst Fragmentation Doofers and Kroot up the wazoo. You don't rely on Smart Missile Systems, Missile Pods and Plasma.

It is heartening to know that you can, though ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848338.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848394.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848409.page GMT
Yes, I find Orks pretty easy to beat with my armies (except my DE versus foot hordes...too much stuff to kill!), but we have the closest thing to a scientific experiment on the question with tournaments all across the country, and orks do well.

Yes, you can draw an alternate conclusion that it only shows people play dumb armies/poorly, but really, army lists are geared toward the competitors metagame, and orks win pretty handily, even at national level events, so they must be a Tier 1 army because they are a viable/realistic choice for winning a major event. Sure, any list COULD win, but no one would seriously consider a pure GK list as being a viable competitor for a major event.

Really, if it's so easy to beat, there are enough people across the country improving their game through alternate sources (again, like Stelek's site) that there should be some evidence it tourney results, but I'm not really seeing it (not that I'd notice it much if it were occurring, probably).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848462.page GMT
You have read the Ork codex right? The fact that sluggas are 18" (so 24" if i'm not running) assault 2. The numbers I ran for you drop significantly by the way if you go down to BS3 on most of your suits. Funny how you point out how much extra stuff you get to use but ignore that Orks will have supporting units as well.

And as for the other "horde" armies you listed they are a joke. No one takes a close combat guard horde or a guardian horde.

Your response truly leave me wondering how much you actually play the game. How do 3-4 Railguns get rid of my synapse in a Nid army? Or kill an Avatar? If your using submunition on the command squads what are you using on the heavier tanks? Your response only show me you have a limited grasp of what a lot of armies can actually do as a whole.

And as for disregarding tournament results because people might bring unoptomized lists that's a little silly since only in the first 2 games of a 5 game tournament are they likely to play a lower geared list. After that the toughest lists start to play each other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848492.page GMT
Yes, I find Orks pretty easy to beat with my armies (except my DE versus foot hordes...too much stuff to kill!), but we have the closest thing to a scientific experiment on the question with tournaments all across the country, and orks do well.

Yes, you can draw an alternate conclusion that it only shows people play dumb armies/poorly, but really, army lists are geared toward the competitors metagame, and orks win pretty handily, even at national level events, so they must be a Tier 1 army because they are a viable/realistic choice for winning a major event.[/quote]

So you agree with the points, yet somehow manage to come to the conclusion that they're all irrelevant because "Orks do well"? Of course lists are geared to face off against the players a person plays regularly; that's one of the reasons they're not proper hard lists. Sure they might tweak them a bit before game-day, try and make them "all-comers" lists by adding a few more Meltaguns or something, but they're still not proper hard lists. You should see some of the crap that passes for all-comers round these parts; "mech" Sisters with that Living Saint character who destroys your ability to generate Faith the first time she's killed, footslogging Eldar with a ton of BS3 Bright Lances, Eldrad, and, for some reason, an Avatar, dual Lash DPs with footslogging Noise Marines and 2 Obliterators, something called a "Kroot-mongler" list that, as far as I can see, is an attempt at some sort of Tau horde, and, of course, Raider-spam.

If that's the quality of army list people are taking to tournaments (and, by and large, it is), it's no surprise that the Orks do well, and are at the top of Tier 1, or The Leaderboard, or whatever you want to call it. That's what the evidence points to. If people stopped gearing their armies towards playing people they play every week and instead built them towards taking on 5th Edition armies, the Orks would most likely stop doing well. That won't happen though, at least not when the GTs are played at 2000pts and above, and so Orks will continue to do well, and thus people will continue to play them in droves.

[quote]Sure, any list COULD win, but no one would seriously consider a pure GK list as being a viable competitor for a major event.[/quote]

Why not? Orks are considered competetive because they "do well". Pure Grey Knight armies also have the ability to "do well", yet nobody uses them, and when people DO use them they treat them like Berzerkers, filling out their lists with asinine garbage like Holy Relics and Mastercrafted Weapons on all their Justicars (as though rerolling one WS5 hit per turn was going to make 15pts of difference). Ork lists can't be filled out with crap. Everything in the Codex will do SOMETHING, even if it's just dying so's your opponent can't shoot at other stuff; yet at the same time, because they're so low-grade and simple, once someone figures out what exactly your units are capable of and how best to counter it, you'll get rolled every time. Therein lies the difference between Orks and the Codexes I consider to be truly "competetive"; you can figure out how THEY work all you want, but they're still difficult to play against and beat even when you do.

Orks aren't. Not even for pure Grey Knights lists. Assuming, of course, you're not running 20 Terminators and a Grand Master with a Master-crafted Thunder Hammer at 1500pts.

Oh yes, it happens.

[quote]Really, if it's so easy to beat, there are enough people across the country improving their game through alternate sources (again, like Stelek's site) that there should be some evidence it tourney results,[/quote]

This is quite a bold statement, and not one you can really back up with anything empyrical, because the fact is a lot of people don't really "get it" when it comes to what Stelek calls "Advanced 40K". I know some of the stuff that's said on that site confuses even me; I'm still trying to work out how the hell Dark Eldar can be good, when they used to be so bloody awful.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848555.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848575.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848594.page GMT
That's some serious BS2 firepower right thurr! And at 24" too. Impressive. No really.

[quote]The numbers I ran for you drop significantly by the way if you go down to BS3 on most of your suits. Funny how you point out how much extra stuff you get to use but ignore that Orks will have supporting units as well.[/quote]

Such as what? OHNOES not a Looted Wagon, they don't suck at all! No, wait... Kan-Wall is the done thing now, isn't it? Because they're difficult to kill AND are BS3! Damn you, Gretchins!

[quote]And as for the other "horde" armies you listed they are a joke. No one takes a close combat guard horde or a guardian horde.[/quote]

ALL horde armies are a joke. Ork ones are just worse, because they substitute steely support units (yeah, the Guard and Eldar get support units too!) for another boat-load of low-grade infantry and then rely on the opponent to not have enough shots to kill enough Orks per turn to deal with the mongling horde. The Codex admits as much itself. And yet again we return to the inescapable truth that the entire play-style of Orks relies more heavily on your opponent NOT having the tools to deal with what you bring than it does upon you being equipped to deal with your opponent.

Which is why when you play your Ork horde against people who know what it can do, it falls flat on it's arse wether they have the shots to kill 180 Orks or not.

[quote]Your response truly leave me wondering how much you actually play the game. How do 3-4 Railguns get rid of my synapse in a Nid army? Or kill an Avatar? If your using submunition on the command squads what are you using on the heavier tanks?[/quote]

The point is, even without tailoring a Tau list, you can handle most (if not quite all) of the rubbish a horde army throws at you each turn, and what you can't handle you ignore. Or throw the Kroot at. Or run away from. Or whatever. It's nice to have options is what I'm saying.

What do you do with your Orks? Mongle forward and WAAAGH! What happens when you have to deal with "heavier tanks"? Mongle forward and WAAAGH! What happens when the heavier tanks aren't there to deal with? Mongle forward and... oh, we used it already.

[quote]And as for disregarding tournament results because people might bring unoptomized lists that's a little silly since only in the first 2 games of a 5 game tournament are they likely to play a lower geared list. After that the toughest lists start to play each other.[/quote]

So we wait for the end of the tournament. Except we've already done that a few times, and the Orks have fared well. Against Dark Angels players, Superfriends Smurfs and Tyranids. And the tri-Monolith Necrons. Can't forget those, because we all know how great Monoliths are. They must be good because people who use them get to finals of 40k tournaments. It's true; I've seen it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848627.page GMT I think this analysis is flawed for several reasons:

1. Tier standings are determined by matchup with what people play. Look at how fighting game tiers are calculated. We assign a ranking for every character that is used in the game.
You can't discount the effect of low tier characters on a ranking. To consider tiers, you have to count all armies used in high level play, not only the hardest lists.
Why is this important? Because the matchup changes the game. Also note that the ranking are calculated on who is more likely to win. A mathcup might be 7-3, or 8-2, and a mark of a great player is the ability to win bad matchups.

2. His opinion assumes perfect play. The best players in the world stil make mistakes. An example> in marvel vs. capcom 2, top players agree that sentinel stride doom is a competitive team. Only one top player plays this team. Why? Because the team is extremely execution heavy. In a perfect world with perfect timing and ability, it can handle anything. In practicality it can't because no one can execute it.
That sort of analysis is way more useful than saying, "Hard lists, hard players, perfect world." There is no such thing.

3. Stelek's analysis is also that orks suffer because people are becoming more mechanized...and that's somewhat true. Once again, you gotta take into account mission, play styles, and matchup. WHat about kill points? All those rhinos are extra kill points on the table. What if there's a lot of terrain on the board, making driving around more difficult? WHat about different point levels? Is it always the same when talking about 2500 vs. 1500?
Also, every list has a bad matchup. Why is it Orks are suddenly worse because of a matchup?


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
Oh, and about the Dark Angel's at the GT. Darkangeldentist took pretty much the only viable build, which was deathwing/ravenwing.

Look at Stelek's best of dark angels. That army is crap compared to doublewing.

Don't knock doublewing. Sadly, it's the only competitive build in Dark Angels, but if you master the army it's a hell of an army. Bad learning curve and weak to mistakes hamstring it for most people.

It's one of those builds that your playstyle vastly changes depending on your matchup. If you haven't faced a particular style before it struggles.

It can handle orks, lash, necrons (it's really good against necrons), mech lists, etc.

It's weak matchups are eldar and dark eldar. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848638.page GMT So you agree with the points, yet somehow manage to come to the conclusion that they're all irrelevant because "Orks do well"?
[/quote]

At the end of the day, winning does seem to be the best, most objective criteria for successful list building, right? The flashy swordsman may be the more skilled fighter, but Indiana Jones blew him away all the same, and that's what really matters.

[quote=Frank Fugger]You should see some of the crap that passes for all-comers round these parts; "mech" Sisters with that Living Saint character who destroys your ability to generate Faith the first time she's killed, footslogging Eldar with a ton of BS3 Bright Lances, Eldrad, and, for some reason, an Avatar, dual Lash DPs with footslogging Noise Marines and 2 Obliterators, something called a "Kroot-mongler" list that, as far as I can see, is an attempt at some sort of Tau horde, and, of course, Raider-spam.[/quote]

Oh, no surprise there. I think most local scenes are similar (mine included). The frustrating part is how they never seem to evolve, even after getting destroyed by the few good players every tournament.

[quote=Frank Fugger]If that's the quality of army list people are taking to tournaments (and, by and large, it is), it's no surprise that the Orks do well, and are at the top of Tier 1, or The Leaderboard, or whatever you want to call it. That's what the evidence points to.
[/quote]

"That's what the evidence points to"? Now you sound like you're agreeing with me!

[quote=Frank Fugger]If people stopped gearing their armies towards playing people they play every week and instead built them towards taking on 5th Edition armies, the Orks would most likely stop doing well. That won't happen though, at least not when the GTs are played at 2000pts and above, and so Orks will continue to do well, and thus people will continue to play them in droves.[/quote]

See, that's the catch, though. What makes an environment? What could be, or what is? Right now, many (most?) players still haven't optimized for 5th edition and the new rules/objectives. Orks, as you mention, thrive on that, which is why they're doing well. Until a large percentage of players make that jump, orks remain a very competitive army. You're judging on potential...no, not even that...an idealized version of what the 40K scene should look like based on your thoughts. Again, I think we both agree on many of the things that could/should come about to make the environment more competitive, but until that happens, it doesn't count.




[quote=Frank Fugger][quote=grimaldi]Really, if it's so easy to beat, there are enough people across the country improving their game through alternate sources (again, like Stelek's site) that there should be some evidence it tourney results,[/quote]

This is quite a bold statement, and not one you can really back up with anything empyrical, because the fact is a lot of people don't really "get it" when it comes to what Stelek calls "Advanced 40K". [/quote]

I think you're the one making bold statements in this discussion. The only empirical evidence available shows that Orks win. Often. That means it's more than just a fluke from a few games with lucky dice rolls. IF most people are playing crappy 4th edition lists/tactics and IF orks are especially poor, THEN decent-good players using "advanced 40K" style lists should be quickly racking up wins and getting attention (because you know if they mentioned winning because of advice from Stelek, there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth of Dakka and elsewhere). I haven't heard it, so I'm assuming it's not true. 'Ard boyz should be an interesting challenge, because I know several Stelek-inspired players have competed, so if there are several of them (who comprise a fraction of players overall, I'm sure) in the top standings, I think your detractors on this thread will be in a tough spot to disagree with you.

Until it's proven empirically, though, it's still an unproven thesis (which I tend to believe is correct).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848687.page GMT
1. Orks suck.
2. Orks only win when the other guy sucks more.

How can you argue with that logic

@ Frank: I'd play anyone that would give me a fun and challenging game. Not sure I get your analogy of players you previously posted (maybe I'm just lost on the humor being from the U.S.)

What will be funny is how well I've done with my Necro army trying to figure out how to play it, only to get pasted at the actual event.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848785.page GMT OK maybe not ALL of the Suits have Targeting Arrays. In fact lets say only one Suit has a Targeting Array, because I forgot. Still a lot of shots, innit? Not more than, say... a mob of 30 Slugga Boyz, but then again mine aren't S4, hitting on 5s and 12" in range.
[/quote]

As I said, ten Fireknives cost you ~650 points. A mob of 30 Ork Boyz costs 180 points...

[quote=Frank Fugger]
While your army is doing what, exactly? Moving 6" towards me each turn? Oh no wait, there's WAAAGH! to consider also; good job I've got my Multi-Trackers on, otherwise I'd never be able to escape the 6"+D6" fury!
[/quote]

Honestly, you may want to listen to those who ACTUALLY HAVE PLAYED TAU AGAINST ORKS. The list you presented would pretty much suck against horde Orks. Real strength of Tau is not the volume of fire (which isn't all that great) or accuracy (again, mostly BS3 with some BS4), but ability to concentrate the fire to most threatening enemy unit. Horde army is troublesome for most Tau builds, because it comes to you everywhere at once and you often simply don't have enough dakka to deal with all enemy units before they are at assault range. Not to mention that Shoota Boyz actually outshoot your infantry. Kroot, particularly, are horribly vulnerable against Ork shooting, unless you manage deploy them to forest. Another problem are bikes and koptas - they turboboost 1st round, giving you a dilemma - either shoot them, and waste lots of shots to cover saves, or ignore them, giving them chance to assault one of your pricey units next turn.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848852.page GMT You can't discount the effect of low tier characters on a ranking. To consider tiers, you have to count all armies used in high level play, not only the hardest lists.
Why is this important? Because the matchup changes the game. Also note that the ranking are calculated on who is more likely to win. A mathcup might be 7-3, or 8-2, and a mark of a great player is the ability to win bad matchups. [/quote]

That only really hangs together if we accept that a tier system exists in 40K. I don't. I can take my Ork list to 5 tournaments and win them all, then get crushed by an army composed entirely of Kroot in the first game I play afterwards. On the other hand I could take my Grey Knights to 5 tournaments and bomb out of every one in the first heat, yet have a flawless winning record against the Mechdar player who wins the tournament. Tiers just don't work in 40K the same way they do in fighting games, because there you've only got two variables; the players and the characters they're using. In 40K you've got dice, terrain, and at tournaments third-party adjudication to take into account.

I'm not going to argue that being able to scrounge something from a game against a tough opponent during which everything goes wrong is the mark of a decent player, but by the same token being able to table poor opposition repeatedly doesn't mark you out as a good one, nor does it mean the army you're using is necessarily brilliant.

[quote]2. His opinion assumes perfect play. The best players in the world stil make mistakes. An example> in marvel vs. capcom 2, top players agree that sentinel stride doom is a competitive team. Only one top player plays this team. Why? Because the team is extremely execution heavy. In a perfect world with perfect timing and ability, it can handle anything. In practicality it can't because no one can execute it.
That sort of analysis is way more useful than saying, "Hard lists, hard players, perfect world." There is no such thing.[/quote]

It doesn't, though. His analysis, as far as I can see, assumes a fairly average set of dice rolls and is far more concerned with the composition of the list and it's ability to handle whatever it's opponent might throw at it. A lot of the Best Of... lists look like a load of old nonsense; until you play with or against one, and find that even with an average set of results an average player can, at worst, make life extremely difficult for you using one. The Best Of Tau list is a great example of this. A lot of people look at it and think it's a big pile of arse; that's what I though when I first saw it. Received wisdom always suggested to me that you took at least one squad of Deep Striking Fusion Suits to get at vehicles, Pirhanas were "meh" at best, and that since mech was good, mech Fire Warriors were good. Then someone proxies it against you, you spend the first two turns having your Bike Squads pounded into hamburger by Railguns and chased around by Pirhanas and Fireknives, and the last two turns trying to circumnavigate a load of Kroot so you can at least say you Swept his Broadsides or something. You might well win (I didn't), but it's a lot harder than it would've been normally.

[quote]3. Stelek's analysis is also that orks suffer because people are becoming more mechanized...and that's somewhat true. Once again, you gotta take into account mission, play styles, and matchup. WHat about kill points? All those rhinos are extra kill points on the table. What if there's a lot of terrain on the board, making driving around more difficult? WHat about different point levels? Is it always the same when talking about 2500 vs. 1500?[/quote]

I agree with this to an extent. Stelek constantly says he's a fan of taking as few Troops units as possible and doesn't pay much attention to keeping the Kill Point down when he's building lists, plus a lot of the Best Of lists don't particularly look as if they're optimised for ground-grabbing missions.

The thing is, the Best Of lists are built around balance, and the ethos of taking units that are useful over units that are "necessary". The reasoning behind this is that a non-scoring unit that increases your list's overall ability to "deal" is far better than taking a unit whose only value lies in it's ability to count as scoring. In that, I find it difficult to argue with him; let's face it, if you have 6 Rhino-mounted Tactical Squads while I have only 2, but a load of Land Speeders, Predators and DreadPods backing them up, who's more likely to win the argument that this plastic tree belongs to me? Your scoring units have to deal with my specialist units, whereas mine just have to score. In that sense, the ethos behind Best Of... lists scales incredibly well with points values. As to the board set-up, that's something you can only account for at game-time, but with a list based on balance rather than just the ability to hold ground, you're a lot more able to handle stuff like 12 square feet of terrain.

The ironic thing is that the entire Ork Codex seems to have been built around a similarly utalitarian concept to the Best Of... lists (why else would you have so many options for Troops?), yet for some reason they chose to tack on the whole "low-grade lots of dice comic relief" thing onto it.

One other thing Stelek says that I agree with; Kill Points suck arse, and that ignoring them for the sake of making a list that's balanced is a far better method to employ than worrying about them and trying to keep them to a minimum. If you're furrowing to try and keep your list under 9 KPs the likelihood is you'll go without something you'll probably need, whereas simply not worrying about them allows you to have enough firepower that KPs don't matter. KPs are one of the stupidest things in 5th Edition; Victory Points were a far more fair and sensible way of working stuff out, why did they need to change it? I mean, I get the whole "streamlining" thing, really I do, but VPs weren't complicated and worked fine whereas Kill Points don't. My Death Cult Assassin is worth the same as his Dakka Flyrant? Come on....

[quote]Also, every list has a bad matchup. Why is it Orks are suddenly worse because of a matchup?[/quote]

Not every list has a bad match-up; they all have armies that'll give them problems, but the thing with the likes of Best Of... lists is that they're built around overall competence and as such can meet whatever's thrown at them. A lot of them are optimised to beat 5th Edition mech lists (hence masses of Melta), but they're also able to kill off infantry and either survive any damage they take, or have enough about them to mean it doesn't matter. Or both. The Orks are worse because they RELY on being someone's bad match-up to succeed.

[quote]Oh, and about the Dark Angel's at the GT. Darkangeldentist took pretty much the only viable build, which was deathwing/ravenwing.

Look at Stelek's best of dark angels. That army is crap compared to doublewing.

Don't knock doublewing. Sadly, it's the only competitive build in Dark Angels, but if you master the army it's a hell of an army. Bad learning curve and weak to mistakes hamstring it for most people.

It's one of those builds that your playstyle vastly changes depending on your matchup. If you haven't faced a particular style before it struggles.

It can handle orks, lash, necrons (it's really good against necrons), mech lists, etc.

It's weak matchups are eldar and dark eldar. [/quote]

So basically fast mech, right? Which seems strange, given that all the competetive Dual-Wing armies I've seen have been more Raven than Death. I still contend that, as awesome as Sammael is (and he is indeed awesome), Ravenwing just doesn't work right. There's too much.... "stuff", too much form and not enough function (300pts+ for what amounts to a Fearless Bike Squad? No thanks; I get mine for 100pts less, and I can live without the Troops Speeder). They feel flabby, and making a reasonably balanced list with them at anything less than 1750pts is a fool's errand. Any higher than that and you're fine.

Personally I reckon they seriously need to knock the Space Wolves Codex back to next year and make October the month for a new DA Codex. The potential to build armies that are not only fun but also incredibly stompy exists in abundance in the DA Codex, it just needs to be made 5th Ed compatible. Nobody cares about the Puppies; we're all about the Green.

[quote=Grimaldi]At the end of the day, winning does seem to be the best, most objective criteria for successful list building, right?[/quote]

Assuming you win by some mechanism other than hoping your opponent doesn't have the tools to deal with you, yeah. Otherwise it's a highly qualified and subjective criteria for judging success.

[quote]The flashy swordsman may be the more skilled fighter, but Indiana Jones blew him away all the same, and that's what really matters.[/quote]

If that's how you want to look at it that's fine, as long as you're also willing to accept that just because something does well it doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

[quote]Oh, no surprise there. I think most local scenes are similar (mine included). The frustrating part is how they never seem to evolve, even after getting destroyed by the few good players every tournament.[/quote]

Which is, I think, the whole problem Stelek and his ilk are railing against. I'm not Stelek. That people continue to bring fail-lists to tourneys and Orks continue to place well isn't really that big a bother to me. It would, however, be nice if people would accept what's in front of them.

[quote]"That's what the evidence points to"? Now you sound like you're agreeing with me! [/quote]

Well, our opinions aren't in opposition

We've already established that we agree on all points relating to the Ork Codex and it's worth as a book to build "hard" lists from. The only logical conclusion we can reach from that is that the Ork Codex isn't a "hard" one. It's not a proper 5th Edition Codex, as much as people will try to claim otherwise, because it relies on a sucky and/ or unprepared opponent to do well. It obviously finds those opponents at tourneys, and as such it DOES do well.

Our only divergence seems to be that you believe this makes them a competetive Codex, whereas I don't. It makes them a successful one, sure, but if the match-ups don't fall for your Waaagh! your Boyz are f***ed. Even with a well-composed list. The same can't be said of Serpent-spam Mechdar armies, Vulkan Bikers, Power-Tau, or any of the other bona fide "hard" army builds.

[quote]See, that's the catch, though. What makes an environment? What could be, or what is? Right now, many (most?) players still haven't optimized for 5th edition and the new rules/objectives. Orks, as you mention, thrive on that, which is why they're doing well. Until a large percentage of players make that jump, orks remain a very competitive army. You're judging on potential...no, not even that...an idealized version of what the 40K scene should look like based on your thoughts. Again, I think we both agree on many of the things that could/should come about to make the environment more competitive, but until that happens, it doesn't count.[/quote]

Which is part of my point. In fact it's the whole of my point >_<

[quote]I think you're the one making bold statements in this discussion. The only empirical evidence available shows that Orks win. Often.[/quote]

Well... it shows they place well in tournaments; but we've already established that, whilst that makes them a successful Codex, it doesn't make them a de facto competetive one. I couldn't build an Ork list from the current Codex that everyone would struggle against, yet gimme the Eldar book and I could do it in five minutes.

[quote]That means it's more than just a fluke from a few games with lucky dice rolls. IF most people are playing crappy 4th edition lists/tactics and IF orks are especially poor, THEN decent-good players using "advanced 40K" style lists should be quickly racking up wins and getting attention (because you know if they mentioned winning because of advice from Stelek, there would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth of Dakka and elsewhere). I haven't heard it, so I'm assuming it's not true.[/quote]

A lot of people have been moaning for quite some time about how hard Mechdar lists are to beat and that's hardly an army build that requires much grey matter to throw together ("Wave Serpents rock... who knew?!", and Vulkan Bikers are a list that anyone who's been running a Biker army for a while could well have stumbled upon by accident without bothering to read the Best Of Bikers and thinking "I know what makes this better... Vulkan!". The very fact a lot of Tau players are still running Fail Warriors (in Devilfish, no less) and are bemoaning the suckiness of Broadside suits sort of suggests they haven't caught the Best Of... bug yet, and yet they're constantly whinged about. Then there's the Deldar; I don't think I've seen a "... vs Dark Eldar" batrep where the Dark Eldar player hasn't won, though that could possibly be because only 4 people in the entire world play Dark Eldar and they're all reclusive loonies who have spent every day since the death of 2nd Ed mastering the art of the spiky elves. Then, of course, there's the good old CSM Dex; I know I said Lash was a noobhammer, but that's because in 90% of cases it is. Use it right and it'll never do you wrong, and if it does you can always drop it and do something else equally hurty.

So, yeah. I'd contend that Hard lists are indeed doing well, and have been for some time (the bloke who won the UK GT was running Mechdar, I believe). Thing is not everyone is running them, and thus the Orks are still able to benefit from match-ups against poor opposition in order to place well.

[quote]'Ard boyz should be an interesting challenge, because I know several Stelek-inspired players have competed, so if there are several of them (who comprise a fraction of players overall, I'm sure) in the top standings, I think your detractors on this thread will be in a tough spot to disagree with you.[/quote]

Well not really; if there are no Ork players at all in the top ten and the standings are dominated by the hard Codexes they'll be completely screwed, but if there are Orks there in any shape or form they'll still be able to contend that this demonstrates competetiveness, I'll still contend that it doesn't, and they'll call me a dick.

[quote]Until it's proven empirically, though, it's still an unproven thesis (which I tend to believe is correct).[/quote]

You can't prove a theory, only evince and espouse it until it gains credence. I've seen the lists people run at tournaments (the Living Saint is a common thing, as are Psyker Battle Squads for some reason I've yet to unravel), and applying that knowledge to tournament results gives them better context than simply saying "Oh well, five Ork players in the top ten; therefore, Orks are competetive".

As I said before, if the only criteria you have for judging competetiveness is "they win lots" then Orks are competetive. If you judge what's competetive based on how competetive it actually is, then they're not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848856.page GMT
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217725.page

Stelek lost to an Ork army and he took his 5th edition army.

Personally I dont think 40k is much of a tier system rather than rock/paper/scissors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848877.page GMT
Oh, i've played his best of dark angels list. It's utter rubbish. It'll do fine against normal armies, but it'll lose badly to certain lists. Like eldarzilla and tyranidzilla. Or doublewing. It loses badly to doublewing. Kill the speeders first, and watch all of his low ap firepower disappear. You got an army built around avoiding normal shots like bolters? Totally rapes the list.

About tiers: If you do statistical analysis, whatever that is, and come up with numbers, tier 1 are things at the top outside of standard deviation, tier 2 is stuff in the middle within standard deviation, tier 3 is bottom stuff outside standard deviation.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/848884.page GMT
That's some serious BS2 firepower right thurr! And at 24" too. Impressive. No really.

[quote]The numbers I ran for you drop significantly by the way if you go down to BS3 on most of your suits. Funny how you point out how much extra stuff you get to use but ignore that Orks will have supporting units as well.[/quote]

Such as what? OHNOES not a Looted Wagon, they don't suck at all! No, wait... Kan-Wall is the done thing now, isn't it? Because they're difficult to kill AND are BS3! Damn you, Gretchins!

[quote]And as for the other "horde" armies you listed they are a joke. No one takes a close combat guard horde or a guardian horde.[/quote]

ALL horde armies are a joke. Ork ones are just worse, because they substitute steely support units (yeah, the Guard and Eldar get support units too!) for another boat-load of low-grade infantry and then rely on the opponent to not have enough shots to kill enough Orks per turn to deal with the mongling horde. The Codex admits as much itself. And yet again we return to the inescapable truth that the entire play-style of Orks relies more heavily on your opponent NOT having the tools to deal with what you bring than it does upon you being equipped to deal with your opponent.

Which is why when you play your Ork horde against people who know what it can do, it falls flat on it's arse wether they have the shots to kill 180 Orks or not.

[quote]Your response truly leave me wondering how much you actually play the game. How do 3-4 Railguns get rid of my synapse in a Nid army? Or kill an Avatar? If your using submunition on the command squads what are you using on the heavier tanks?[/quote]

The point is, even without tailoring a Tau list, you can handle most (if not quite all) of the rubbish a horde army throws at you each turn, and what you can't handle you ignore. Or throw the Kroot at. Or run away from. Or whatever. It's nice to have options is what I'm saying.

What do you do with your Orks? Mongle forward and WAAAGH! What happens when you have to deal with "heavier tanks"? Mongle forward and WAAAGH! What happens when the heavier tanks aren't there to deal with? Mongle forward and... oh, we used it already.

[quote]And as for disregarding tournament results because people might bring unoptomized lists that's a little silly since only in the first 2 games of a 5 game tournament are they likely to play a lower geared list. After that the toughest lists start to play each other.[/quote]

So we wait for the end of the tournament. Except we've already done that a few times, and the Orks have fared well. Against Dark Angels players, Superfriends Smurfs and Tyranids. And the tri-Monolith Necrons. Can't forget those, because we all know how great Monoliths are. They must be good because people who use them get to finals of 40k tournaments. It's true; I've seen it.[/quote]

Wow Frank, not only do you not logically address my objections but you then head off on tangents. If you don't have answers for my questions it's ok. You can just ignore me

Quick question, what do you consider a horde? How many models does it take to make a horde? I'm curious as my response to your absurd statement that Tau can deal with most "horde" lists needs that information. Just because you got rocked by tau doesn't mean everyone will be or that it's the greatest list ever. Don't get me wrong I think Tau can make a very strong list but it is one that suffers against horde/target rich armies.

Oh and as for your last statement you either didn't get my point or your deliberately avoiding it. My point was the last 3 games of a 5 game tournament means that those "super-friends" and dark angel armies aren't going to be there. Tyrannids might but that is because they are still a very strong list if built properly. Not the Nidzilla of old but a new hybrid style w/deathspitter spam is just nasty. Yes, you might get one random non optomized list in the top 8 but you won't see them in the top 4. My nid's make short work of most almost all armies (excluding LR heavy Black Templars, the scissor to my rock ).

Yelling Orks are bad because the people playing against them suck is a little silly. But we're all entitled to our opinions. Not to mention maybe your right and they do suck across the Atlantic though even your results (GT's which are far more cutthroat than ours) don't show that but hey everyone they played against were horrible players so it's all good ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849298.page GMT
Wait, I remember; all my opponents sucked

What I do concur with. Orks not having something in the army that is equivelant to a Melta weapon does make things harder in a mechanized enviornment. But, I don't count Weirdboyz (which isn't going to be reliable).

What I also will agree with from what I've been observing. Folks have a hard time building a balanced list that can handle any army. Sure, there can be an army that can easily deal with 180 orks, but then it goes against an IG armored column and gets pasted. My Orks in particular have difficulty with armor 14 (big surprise). In the last two tourneys (2500 pt Ard Boyz, 1850 pt RTT), I've ran into the following armor 14 tanks:

Ard Boyz
Game 1. 2 Land Raiders
Game 2. 1 Land Raider
Game 3. 4 Land Raiders

RTT
Game 1. 1 Leman Russ
Game 2. 0 (Eldar army, Eldrad/Avatar combo)
Game 3. 2 Leman Russ

I did not destroy every armor 14 tank in any game. However, it wasn't necessary to do this in order to win.

Folks can copy any 'uber' list on the internet and play it. However, the armies don't play themselves. Somewhere along the line, player skill has to be factored.

I think this is where I think Frank's arguement falls down. We don't play this game on paper. There will always be players of various skill levels and armylists of varying opinions of effectiveness.

A good player can do well with any codex. Frank, you read Stelek's blog and seem to pretty much agree with him. You do realize he took a Demonhunter army to a no comp GT last year and went 5-0. He utelized a less than stellar codex and still won. Like him or not, I give him credit in regards to player skill. Something, you seem to not want to give credence to.



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The assumption that all those Eldar, SM, CSM...players are readily taking uncompetative lists into a competetive environment is not very convincing. There hasn't been any "evidence" of this apart from some anecdotes of "lists I've seen". What lists do people *actually* take to the UKGT or any equivalent?

But that is not all. It is then also assumed that people do not play Orks outside of tournaments, so that their peers are not used to them. Exactly how anyone gained this information is unknown. For all I know, all those other players could face them every weekend and still struggle. I know I do, and I play against them for what feels like a century, and I know so many others do who are in fact rather canny players.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
Which is why when you play your Ork horde against people who know what it can do, it falls flat on it's arse wether they have the shots to kill 180 Orks or not.
[/quote]

Regarding bold statements, and with all due respect but I think this is but bragging. At the end of the day, such broad statements aren't convincing. How you will gain the needed KP's from such a horde without the tools needed to do it, especially when ignoring the whole mission concept in *your* list, or how you are going to get rid of a mob going to ground in some good real estate when their friends are bearing down on you, some of your units are tied up with outflanking deffkoptas, how you are escaping the (big) shootas for more than one turn AND avoiding Snikrot and all of that with one hand tied to your back will probably remain your secret.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
The ironic thing is that the entire Ork Codex seems to have been built around a similarly utalitarian concept to the Best Of... lists (why else would you have so many options for Troops?), yet for some reason they chose to tack on the whole "low-grade lots of dice comic relief" thing onto it.
[/quote]

Hu? When all you do is to take the Best Of troops, you don't need many options. You only need a single good one. The reason that they or any others have several options is simply variety.

If you do not know for what reason they chose to give Orks lots of dakka and attacks then I'm afraid you are talking about some other thing called "Ork" than I do.

Orks *can* meet most of what is thrown at them. Of course they cannot kill everything all the time, everywhere under all conditions but yet they can usually handle it. Even Land Raiders do not change that picture much. I'm afraid we disagree at a very basic level.

[quote]
As I said before, if the only criteria you have for judging competetiveness is "they win lots" then Orks are competetive. If you judge what's competetive based on how competetive it actually is, then they're not.[/quote]

Actually...you mean some theoretical actuality or the real one? Because for your theory to hold any water, you rely on the crutch of assuming that everyone else sucks. Or plays "for fun" at the UKGT. Yes, it happens, or so I hear.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
The thing with all this is, apart from stuff like fielding hordes and Fleeting once per game, most other armies can do all of these things to a far more potent extent than the Orks. Marines and Eldar can Bike-spam. Marines, Daemonhunters and Guard can tank-spam. Eldar and Deldar can Fleet (and they can do it more than once per game), and most Codexes have some unit or other that can Outflank.
[/quote]

No, they cannot do that to a "far more potent" extent. Eldar bikes may be faster, Guard tanks more resilient and deadly at range and so on but they are all hampered by other factors, such as much lower numbers or extreme fragility in close combat.

Being caught by Snikrot is certainly not equivalent to failing at 5th ed. That's just ridiculous. You're invited to move closer towards the rest of the Orks in order to avoid that one unit, in which case you're limiting your freedom of movement, and neuter your heavy weapons. If you either do that or did not take such units, then that Guard army won't be doing the shooting any better, BS 3-4 or not.

[quote]
I'll give you that 180 Orks can take up the board, but they're only Orks. T4 and a 6+ save is hardly inspiring, and neither is S3(4) attacks against even AV10; even en masse. Assuming you get near my vehicles to begin with.
[/quote]

Au contraire. All those stats barring their armour save are impressive, especially en masse. Apart from the fact that AV10 will never ever face S3 (tanks do not charge Orks, and sentinels will face a powerklaw), they will kill any vehicle they chance upon barring Raiders, or at least render it ineffective, a majority will have at the very least a 5++ save, and then there are the PK nobs. Having said that, why would they even need to touch your vehicles? Anything short of a Hellhound is not going to dent that horde, so there's little need to take them out, and when the passengers wish to approach any objective, they will more often than not move closer to the Orks.

[quote]
Again, other armies can do this too, only they tend to do it better. Guard have more shots and a better chance of hitting with them, and it's hard to keep a 30-man Mob in cover; a ten man Tac Squad not so much.
[/quote]

Very few armies tend to do shooting any better than Orks. Even less armies do shooting while moving and being able to beat 99 percent of the opposition to a bloody pulp any better.

Regarding your Tau comment, no, that isn't enough to worry a horde. IME of course.

[quote]
It might also be worth noting that horde armies are not "hard".[/quote]

I disagree. A conscript horde is not hard. An Ork horde is a steep proposition though - depending on what you face of course. If everyone tools up for Biker Nobs, Nidzilla, and Termi spam, then it's quite easy to see how a horde could do very well. And that doesn't have anything to do with player skill.

[quote=Kevin Nash]
From a practical point of view. Getting cover saves with guard or marine or imperium armies is quite easy using smoke launchers or leap frog tactics. The KFF save isn't really an advantage as it is a necessity to be on par with other armies.
[/quote]

As has been pointed out, the KFF holds several noticeable advantages over smoke launchers. The latter give you a save for a single turn and then are spent. The KFF is always on. Smoke launchers increase your survivability at the cost of offensive power - the KFF doesn't. Using leap frog tactics with non-squadroned vehicles may or may not work, and usually breaks down when terrain is involved and/or when you want to keep some fire lanes open, and then there's the fact that infantry can benefit from the KFF as well.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
Even without corroboration, the fact 13 Daemons players managed to make the second round speaks volumes of the quality of the field.
[/quote]

Only if you're convinced that the codex is fail boat, which I'm not. You might be able to fell T5 with re-rollable inv saves with those bolters (how many will you have in your list, in range, in LoS etc. exactly?) and meltabombs; I'm pretty sure that few others could repeat that. In the same vein, power armour is nearly useless against Daemons, so it's a wash.

I realize that you judge the codex to be poor but the results do not indicate anything like that. As long as you assume that some supposedly competetive factions were even involved, then you must also assume that these were all played by weak players and bad / outdated codices by better players in order for your argument to make sense. This assumption however is completely unfounded.

[quote]
Number two; quality, not quantity. Sure only a single Tyranid player made it into the top ten, but if the other players had been running hard lists even he wouldn't've been there. Neither would the 4 Ork players, nor any CSM Lash merchant.
[/quote]

That doesn't hold any water. The hardest lists on earth won't guarantee a result, or there wouldn't be any need to play at all. A single Nid placing high doesn't tell us anything about the quality of the players involved. If at all, it says something about the quality of that particular Nid player.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
Which suggests that in the current climate of competetive 40K the Orks do well. Something I've been saying all along. Awesome.
[/quote]

That's what *everyone* is saying all along and has never been in doubt. We "only" come to different conclusions. Whereas I believe that the quality of the codex lies at the heart of this, you argue that the competition is weak. It is I believe a classic case of circular logic: Everyone is weak, ergo Orks (and Nids, and Daemons) perform well, and because Orks (and Nids, and Daemons) perform well, everyone is weak. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849812.page GMT
If the Stelek argument assumes perfect competition through perfect lists and perfect play, then it has no real world validity. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/849917.page GMT
1) I own over 10k of Orks, and have played them most of the 15 years I've played 40k.
2) I absolutely LOVE the fun of playing Orks.
3) Orks can't make a reliable balanced list.
4) Few (if any) of you play the game right. Insult? No, fact. Infantry do [b]not[/b] have a 360 LOS, so Tankbustas are a hell of a lot better than most people think. In fairness, I haven't used them since coming to this realisation, but, they are lot better than they were in 4th.
5) HulkSmash: Please reread YOUR codex. Slugga =/= Shoota.
6) DoubleWing is [i]okay[/i]. It's very much NOT a competitive list.
7) MechDar, the way I use it, at 1750, only has 3 Prisms, and Yriel's face, to reliably kill hordes. Yet, I laugh at them.
8) The UK GT winner's list was, frankly, crap. Better at the time, than now, but not good even then. He must be SOME player.
9) ElfZilla is also crap, but more so. Vendetta = Dead Wraithlord.
10) A lot of Ork wins, mine included, ARE because I'm a better player than the opponent. Not all, but a lot. Conversely, my worst game with the Orks, this year certainly, possibly ever, was against a highly Mech'd Nilla SM list that was in no way tooled. It was a poor list. Mine was also fairly poor, but, on paper, better than his - except that I couldn't kill armour quickly/reliably. I should have gotten tabled, only luck, and the realisation that it was the most likely outcome in good time, saved me. Orks don't suck...but they're below Chaos, Eldar, DEldar, SM and IG in competitiveness. Even Lash.
11) EDIT: Remembered. Those of you who play that a Battlewagon is only AV14 on the tiny front plate need to reread the vehicle arc rules. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850229.page GMT

5) thehod: Please reread YOUR codex. Slugga =/= Shoota.
[/quote]


can you show me where I said that? I didnt see it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850365.page GMT

1. That doesn't really mean anything. Ive played Orks for about the same length of time, and don't agree with most of what you have posted here. Doesn't make either one of us right of course, but it certainly throws a monkey wrench in your "fact" statements.

2. Same here.

3. I disagree, but it seems we have both had different results.

4. See, here is where your statements go a bit off key. How do you know, beyond a reasonable doubt(you did use the term [b]fact[/b] here right?) That we are the ones who don't play the game right? Your results against local competition really don't mean any more than my results against local competition.

5. no comment

6. no comment

7. 3 Prisms can stand up to all the Lootas? Depends on who gets first turn I guess. If the Orks go first, your Prisms won't do much thereafter. If the Prisms go first, they better kill some Lootas.

8. He probably is a very good player.

9. Agreed

10. Since we don't know how "good" you actually are, your comments can only be taken with a grain of salt here. I would venture to say that 99% of all 40k wins are because one player is better than the other, so again, whats your point here?

11. I'll just wait this one out and see what comes up.


Basically this, we are all spouting off our opinions here. Noone can definitivly say Orks are a top tier army, any more than they can say they are crap. Your mileage may vary from mine, and thats all related to local meta. The ONLY thing we could possibly use as some sort of guideline, are national results, where local meta doesn't matter any more. So far, those results seem to be telling us that Orks are just fine.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850385.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850385.page GMT
I myself am quite curious how the higher bracket rounds will go, as people either swap armies completely or at least tool them up better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850452.page GMT
I myself am quite curious how the higher bracket rounds will go, as people either swap armies completely or at least tool them up better.[/quote]

I agree with this, especially on the point that many lists going to round 2 were not very optimized. I think it has a lot to due with the poor tournament turn-out this year. Our club here split up so we wouldn't have to play each other and it's a good thing we did because none of the locations had more than 12 players, including us. In fact, the store I went to only had 3, including myself and my friend. We could have brought literally anything and we'd have made it to the semi-finals.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850470.page GMT [/QUOTE]
Can't you just start in reserve (unlike the orks), if you think lootas are gonne ba problem?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850495.page GMT

5) thehod: Please reread YOUR codex. Slugga =/= Shoota.
[/quote]


can you show me where I said that? I didnt see it.[/quote]

Sorry...it was Hulksmash who said [quote=Hulksmash]You have read the Ork codex right? The fact that sluggas are 18" (so 24" if i'm not running) [/quote] - my bad, sorry again. lol


Anyway...

@Primarch: Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought. Let me rephrase.
[color=yellow]Anyone who plays Infantry as though they had a 360* LOS plays the game wrong. [/color] Clear?


@number9dream:

Yes, although in DoW it wouldn't be an issue. Also, I play on tables with corners. Just saying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850508.page GMT [/quote]

Yaw yaw.

[quote]Quick question, what do you consider a horde?[/quote]

Any army whose strategy is based around throwing more infantry at you than your guns can handle.

[quote] How many models does it take to make a horde?[/quote]

More than your opponent's guns can handle, which really depends on your points level. Say 1500, because that's the points level 180 Orks are supposed to rock at. With a 1500pt Eldar Horde it's an Avatar and maybe 80+ Concealed Guardians (so 4 full squads and a Lock each), depending how many Wave Serpent-riding DAs and Prisms you want to include, and for the Guard I'd say at least 3 IPs with 3 ISquads each tooled up with with a Commissar, plus a couple of tanks (Demolishers are coo', but a couple of Devil Dogs and a 2-strong squad of Valks run nicely as well) and something in the HQ slots that'll make the whole thing hang together.

[quote]I'm curious as my response to your absurd statement that Tau can deal with most "horde" lists needs that information. Just because you got rocked by tau doesn't mean everyone will be or that it's the greatest list ever. Don't get me wrong I think Tau can make a very strong list but it is one that suffers against horde/target rich armies.[/quote]

Double-think at it's finest. How can they make a strong list if they struggle against horde armies? If they struggle against target-rich armies (which is, like, every 5th Edition list ever) they'd be royally boned, wouldn't they, because EVERYTHING is a target.

If everything in your list ISN'T a target, i.e if I can ignore something you're bringing either because it serves no useful purpose OR because it sucks and can't hurt me, then your list fu is weak.

There are a lot of things in the Ork Codex that can be ignored when they turn up on the table, or at worst taken out quickly with cursory application of firepower. 30-man Mobs are one of those things.

[quote]Oh and as for your last statement you either didn't get my point or your deliberately avoiding it.[/quote]

what is this i dont even

[quote]My point was the last 3 games of a 5 game tournament means that those "super-friends" and dark angel armies aren't going to be there.[/quote]

Why not say that, then? Prove to my satisfaction that no pooball armies are playing in the last 3 games. Apparently the bloke who won the UK GT was playing a pooball Eldar army, so that's that theory out the window. NB: Pooball armies do not necessarily have to be built from a pooball Codex.

[quote]Tyrannids might but that is because they are still a very strong list if built properly.[/quote]

ORLY? They're an annoying army when built properly. Then again so are Orks.

[quote]Not the Nidzilla of old but a new hybrid style w/deathspitter spam is just nasty.[/quote]

Can people stop saying "spam" when they don't mean spam? "Spam" Deathspitters? How? How do you do this? Warriors? That's not good, is it? Or maybe you run lots of Monstrous Creatures, which makes your list a Nidzilla list; which makes it suck.

[quote]Yes, you might get one random non optomized list in the top 8 but you won't see them in the top 4.[/quote]

You sure about that?

[quote]My nid's make short work of most almost all armies (excluding LR heavy Black Templars, the scissor to my rock ).[/quote]

Again, how?

[quote]Yelling Orks are bad because the people playing against them suck is a little silly. But we're all entitled to our opinions. Not to mention maybe your right and they do suck across the Atlantic though even your results (GT's which are far more cutthroat than ours) don't show that but hey everyone they played against were horrible players so it's all good [/quote]

Take out the bit about the Atlantic and, wayhey, you're on the trolley!

[quote=Sarigar]@ Frank: What about if the Ork army isn't completely optimized?[/quote]

You can't optimise an Ork list unless you possess powers of divination. How do you optimise something that relies on your opponent being a gimp?

[quote]What I also will agree with from what I've been observing. Folks have a hard time building a balanced list that can handle any army. Sure, there can be an army that can easily deal with 180 orks, but then it goes against an IG armored column and gets pasted.[/quote]

In which case it isn't optimised; or if it is, the player is Doin' It Wrong.

[quote]My Orks in particular have difficulty with armor 14 (big surprise). In the last two tourneys (2500 pt Ard Boyz, 1850 pt RTT), I've ran into the following armor 14 tanks:

Ard Boyz
Game 1. 2 Land Raiders
Game 2. 1 Land Raider
Game 3. 4 Land Raiders

RTT
Game 1. 1 Leman Russ
Game 2. 0 (Eldar army, Eldrad/Avatar combo)
Game 3. 2 Leman Russ

I did not destroy every armor 14 tank in any game. However, it wasn't necessary to do this in order to win.[/quote]

Of course not; 2500pt lists with 2 Raiders and 1 Raider hardly force you to deal with the AV14. Oh sure it's on the table, doing what a Raider does, but at 2500pts one or two of them isn't something you can't work around, regardless of what army you're playing. In the case of 4-Raiders it's slightly more difficult to understand quite how he managed to get through a game without forcing you to deal with them, since, regardless of what your Ork lists consists of, the chances are each Raider and it's cargo would be fit for at least a quarter of your entire army. Either he took Redeemers, or he was Doin' It Wrong. Which, to be honest, are two sides of the same coin.

Inb4 "AMAGAD REDEEMERS RAWK VERSIS ORKS U NOOB" Redeemers rock versus nothing. Lern2AV14.

[quote]Folks can copy any 'uber' list on the internet and play it. However, the armies don't play themselves. Somewhere along the line, player skill has to be factored.

I think this is where I think Frank's arguement falls down. We don't play this game on paper. There will always be players of various skill levels and armylists of varying opinions of effectiveness. [/quote]

At least that's where it WOULD fall down, if I was trying to claim that taking NetDecks to tourneys was a guaranteed success. It's not. You can optimise your list all day long; if you don't know how to play it you're going to get stiffed. Worse still if you take a NetDeck and expect to win with it without Getting It.

[quote]A good player can do well with any codex. Frank, you read Stelek's blog and seem to pretty much agree with him. You do realize he took a Demonhunter army to a no comp GT last year and went 5-0. He utelized a less than stellar codex and still won. Like him or not, I give him credit in regards to player skill. Something, you seem to not want to give credence to.[/quote]

And he did so with a 7 Raider list, if I recall. That's not balanced in any shape or form, and -- guess what? -- relies totally on opponents who aren't equipped to handle it to be successful. Stelek himself admits that he won not because the Daemonhunters are a competetive Codex, but because his opposition is poor; having played Daemonhunters for a number of years I feel qualified to state that, unless his opposition truly did suck in one way or another, he wouldn't have gone 5-0. The change in game mechanics made a lot of stuff that was borderline useful before (shooty =][= Retinues, GK Dreads) a load of balls, and stuff that was useless (Daemonhosts, Purgation Squads) even moreso. The only reason the Codex isn't a complete dead dog is because their basic Troops are reasonably nasty (Grey Knights are, out and out, one of the best infantry-killing units in the game (not point-for-point, they're too expensive) and ISTs allow you to add cheap special weapons to any Imperial list), a lot of their wargear is coo' even in 5th Edition (some of it, like Psychic Hoods and Smoke Launchers, because of Codex creep, and some of it like Psycannons and Incinerators because it's just awesome), people like Mystics, and of course they can Raider-spam.

Yeah, anyway. DH rant over. Point is he took an army list that does exactly what the Orks do (relying on opponent gimpage), except to a greater extent (7x 14-14-14 Ohnoes!), to a tournament and won with it. What exactly does that tell us?

[quote=Lord Solar Plexus]It is quite mind-boggling how anyone so naturally assumes that most people will take crappy, non-competetive lists to tournaments[/quote]

People taking piss-ball lists to events is a safer bet than the tide coming in.

[quote]- everyone except, for some or the other reason, Nids, Daemons and Orks apparently.[/quote]

No no, you've gotten the wrong end of the stick. You can't build a hard, balanced list from any of these Codexes; the reason they go to tournaments and place well is because the opposition they're up against sucks.

[quote]Is there some substance used in the production of their codices that can be held accountable for this phenomenon? Do their books require a higher IQ to buy than other codices? Are they all played by Stelek or his clones?[/quote]

Reading the thread will answer all of these questions for you.

[quote]The assumption that all those Eldar, SM, CSM...players are readily taking uncompetative lists into a competetive environment is not very convincing. There hasn't been any "evidence" of this apart from some anecdotes of "lists I've seen". What lists do people *actually* take to the UKGT or any equivalent?[/quote]

Wych Cults, footslogging Sisters, 500pts of Lysander and TH/SS Terminators (Awesome? Yes. In a 1500pt army? No), Superfriends, Mechdar with the infantry deployed on the table, MonoGod Daemons lists, Lictors... the list goes on.

[quote]But that is not all. It is then also assumed that people do not play Orks outside of tournaments, so that their peers are not used to them.[/quote]

No, no it's not...

Seriously, re-read the thread. I can't be arsed to digest and regurgitate it every time someone new comes in, misreads the bugger, and then gets on their high horse about stuff that nobody is even saying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850804.page GMT GW prices, so he spent months and months carving a "counts-as" Ork army using stone from a local quarry.


I can honestly say it's the hardest army I've ever faced.


Boom Boom. I'm here all night.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850915.page GMT
So far...noones stepped up to the challenge, Orks are still winning tourney's.



I think I just heard a toilet flush.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850922.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/850966.page GMT GT last year and went 5-0. He utelized a less than stellar codex and still won. Like him or not, I give him credit in regards to player skill. Something, you seem to not want to give credence to.


And he did so with a 7 Raider list, if I recall. That's not balanced in any shape or form, and -- guess what? -- relies totally on opponents who aren't equipped to handle it to be successful. Stelek himself admits that he won not because the Daemonhunters are a competetive Codex, but because his opposition is poor; having played Daemonhunters for a number of years I feel qualified to state that, unless his opposition truly did suck in one way or another, he wouldn't have gone 5-0. The change in game mechanics made a lot of stuff that was borderline useful before (shooty =][= Retinues, GK Dreads) a load of balls, and stuff that was useless (Daemonhosts, Purgation Squads) even moreso. The only reason the Codex isn't a complete dead dog is because their basic Troops are reasonably nasty (Grey Knights are, out and out, one of the best infantry-killing units in the game (not point-for-point, they're too expensive) and ISTs allow you to add cheap special weapons to any Imperial list), a lot of their wargear is coo' even in 5th Edition (some of it, like Psychic Hoods and Smoke Launchers, because of Codex creep, and some of it like Psycannons and Incinerators because it's just awesome), people like Mystics, and of course they can Raider-spam.

Yeah, anyway. DH rant over. Point is he took an army list that does exactly what the Orks do (relying on opponent gimpage), except to a greater extent (7x 14-14-14 Ohnoes!), to a tournament and won with it. What exactly does that tell us?

EDIT: found the first link for the results of his LVGT last year. Went 5-0 with Demonhunter. It also links to his armylist. Not 7 Land Raiders.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217705.page

Wrong tourney, Frank. The 7 Land Raider list was the Ard Boyz. I was referring to a GT that did not utelize 7 Land Raiders. It's posted in the battle reports somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851220.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851456.page GMT
Then I played the first round of 'Ard Boyz against a 3 Battlewagon list with 2 full squads of lootas. Did the battle wagons survive? No. Did the lootaz survive? One squad did. Who won? Orks. If I killed some of his guys, it didn't matter. He controlled the objectives, and he protected the objectives he controlled. I don't know if orks can ever overpower an opponent. But they can win games in 5th edition, they can take objectives arguably better than any other troop in the game (30 fearless orks is hard to take off of an objective). They can take their kill points too (30 orks vs 10 marines is an attrition battle, and if orks get the charge...). How did he win? On every charge he got his orks all the way around my vehicles. When his powerclaw killed it, my grey knights couldn't get out, and were killed. I understand that a lot of units can do this, but with 30 models it is a lot easier.

I don't care for orks, I will never play a game with them. But do they suck? are they a lower tier army? No.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851534.page GMT
I understand what you're saying, but how in the world did it ever happen like what you describe? If you were tank shocking through his mobs, Death or Glory is Death 9 times out of 10 and he needs 6's to hit you while your Hurricane Bolters pop off 6 every turn.

I just can't help but think you weren't using your LR to max effectiveness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851544.page GMT
Just two quick things and I'm bowing out of this thread.

1) A strong army will still have problems with their rock army. You give me any build of any army and i'll show you a solid take all comers list that is the paper to your rock. You'll say well if everyone built competatively then those take all comers wouldn't be there which is silly but seems to be what you really believe. Maybe competative 40k only has 4 viable army builds according to you.

Again you didn't understand what I was saying about the Tau or your choosing to be deliberately obtuse. Which is your choice and cool but your still yelling orks suck with no proof to back it up.

2) In Regard to the Tyrannid comments.

12 Warriors in 2 squads (at 2k) w/12 deathspitters and +1st is a lot of boom. Add in 4 Carnies (3 heavy carnies) and 2 Hive Tyrants and you've got a very very respectable firepower list that can brawl up close. You use gaunts and create a leveled cover system which keeps your shooters and heavy hitters safe as they close. I said spam and I meant spam. 12 St6 Blast Templates is more than any other army out there can put out so it is spamming an excellent unit.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851865.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/851865.page GMT SM can easily have 16 S7 Blasts.

Guard can have far more.

You still haven't addressed the small matter of your ignorance, calling a Slugga a Shoota.

But I forgive you - "you didn't understand what I was saying about the Shoota or your choosing to be deliberately obtuse. Which is your choice and cool but your still yelling orks rule with no proof to back it up. "
lolz. Edited quotes ftw.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852158.page GMT 1) I own over 10k of Orks, and have played them most of the 15 years I've played 40k.
[/quote]

Neither the amount of models you own nor your past experience with older rule sets have any bearing on the question of whether Orks are competetive in 5th.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
People taking piss-ball lists to events is a safer bet than the tide coming in.
[/quote]

Yes, let me correct myself: I’m sure some do, and I’m sure others don’t. Even skimming the abundance of BatReps here and elsewhere is ample evidence of that. Some go go great lengths to ensure they stand a chance while others simply take what they have painted or like best at that point.

Even then there is simply no good reason why only Orks (or shall we say: supposedly weak codices) would show up with a competetive list - especially when that isn't even possible from those books, which is what you assert so forcefully. There is no reason why they should show up with a better list than others. Some people have suggested that because the die-hard Ork players had to put up with an outdated codex for so long, they have gotten better at playing than people with more “forgiving” (newer, more competitive) armies but I don't think that is right. Despite being the target of much ridicule, SM players (or Eldar or IG players) will and can be just as experienced.

[quote]
No no, you've gotten the wrong end of the stick. You can't build a hard, balanced list from any of these Codexes; the reason they go to tournaments and place well is because the opposition they're up against sucks.
[/quote]

So you keep asserting, yes. To be honest - whoah, extremely bad pun avoided at the last second! -, I believe that this will remain a minority opinion for the foreseeable future though. Not that I think that you care but hey.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
[quote]But that is not all. It is then also assumed that people do not play Orks outside of tournaments, so that their peers are not used to them.[/quote]

No, no it's not...
[/quote]

It isn’t? This sentence evoked lots of mental question marks: "If people stopped gearing their armies towards playing people they play every week and instead built them towards taking on 5th Edition armies, the Orks would most likely stop doing well."

1) People gear their armies towards what they usually play against.
2) People play against Orks.

Ergo, they at least take Orks into account. Why in all the heavens do they then not fare any better? Why would they be stupid if those lists they actually bring are geared to tackle Orks, too, since if they play them and gear towards what they play against this is the conclusion? I’m afraid simply calling everyone stupid doesn’t cut it.

People take stupid, uncompetetive lists. People gear their armies towards what they are used to play against. If they indeed play against Orks much, then gearing against them (as well) is neither stupid nor uncompetetive but quite reasonable - regardless of what we think about the quality of the codex, there's no doubt that there are many Ork players at tournaments.

If however the lists are as stupid as you think, then they are not optimized to deal with Orks, and that can only mean that people do not play against them. In every other case, they would take that into account. Whatever way I look at it, your reasoning breaks down at one point or the other.

Regardless of these considerations, there is another aspect that I do not understand: If the Ork codex is not a proper 5th edition codex, then how does optimizing other lists to tackle 5th edition codices help against one that isn't?

[quote]
Seriously, re-read the thread. I can't be arsed to digest and regurgitate it every time someone new comes in, misreads the bugger, and then gets on their high horse about stuff that nobody is even saying.[/quote]

Keep your internet platitudes, they bore me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852166.page GMT
You're wrong. My experience shows that, irrespective of the ruleset, I have a lot of experience playing the race. To clarify further, though, just for you - I have played, with my Orks, over 60 games, this year alone. I have literally used every unit in the Dex, and every character, except, strangely, Grotsnik. Experience gives me the ability to compare this Ork Dex to previous ones.

I preferred the last one - when Burnas could penetrate armour, and Orks had more than a snowballs chance in hell against TH/SS Termies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852181.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852187.page GMT
I think you'll find a 3+ is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than a 2+.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852259.page GMT
You're wrong. My experience shows that, irrespective of the ruleset, I have a lot of experience playing the race. To clarify further, though, just for you - I have played, with my Orks, over 60 games, this year alone. I have literally used every unit in the Dex, and every character, except, strangely, Grotsnik. Experience gives me the ability to compare this Ork Dex to previous ones.

[/quote]

The reason your experience means nothing in this debate is because there is no way to compare your 60 games to the current tournement atmosphere.

Your experience means nothing if your 60 games are played with the skill of a partially retarded 7 year old. Especially if you can safely assume that Tournement players are reletively competant adults playing armies that they're familiar with. (we can)

-btw, I'm not saying that you ARE this inept. Just trying to illustrate why citing experience is meaningless in a debate such as this. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852339.page GMT 40k. A MAJORITY of tourny players may be relatively experienced with their army. Doesn't mean a thing.

The majority of players in the UK ToS played the Heats competitively, then broke out the fluff armies for the Finals, because all they cared about was qualification. Doesn't mean a thing if Orks beat them.

Of course, you're right, if I had little/no ability those results would be irrelevant. Did I neglect to mention that most of those games were in a Tournament? Ooops.

A League Tournament, which I won with more points than third and fourth place guys put together, and then half that total added again. With Orks.

Some of those players were scrubs. Mostly, it was because I played few tooled lists. A mediocre list struggles against 20 Nob Bikes, which was fine to run, because it was 6 months ago, and they were still fairly good.

One game, I tabled an IG player with 300 points more than me, in 5 turns. He went first.

So, even if my opponents weren't, it's pretty safe to say, I WAS playing at a Tourny level. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852376.page GMT
You post what you just did...

I can respond with the total opposite.

I'm a tournement player myself since '96 and been playing 40k since '88. I've also got HEAPS of experience playing as and against Orks in AND out of Tournement during that time. Myself as a gamer rarely loose and typically get within top 10 or so whenever I go to a major tournement, GT or Indie.

It's MY experience that Orks can make a competetive/balanced list.

...I just trumped your arguement.


Now if we can have some actual DEBATE on the subject...since personal experience is not valid in this discussion...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852422.page GMT
Or are people going to start debating the merits of sitting a warboss with a power klaw in front of a landraider?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852485.page GMT
As I originally said, the previous experience was for purposes of illustrating that I know how to play, and how to play Orks. It was also to compare this Dex to the previous ones, which, in my view, were better from a purely balance perspective.

Orks could be balanced before, sure. Now? No.

Maybe if you bothered to answer any of the other 10 points I raised I could be bothered with you.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=sourclams][quote=Grey Knight Luke]How did he win? On every charge he got his orks all the way around my vehicles. When his powerclaw killed it, my grey knights couldn't get out, and were killed. I understand that a lot of units can do this, but with 30 models it is a lot easier. [/quote]

I understand what you're saying, but how in the world did it ever happen like what you describe? If you were tank shocking through his mobs, Death or Glory is Death 9 times out of 10 and he needs 6's to hit you while your Hurricane Bolters pop off 6 every turn.

I just can't help but think you weren't using your LR to max effectiveness.[/quote]

In addition, a LR is over 4" deep. Therefore, it is impossible to charge the rear with a squad that didn't already either start surrounding it, in which case MOVE, or in an illegal position, in which case, call a Judge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852489.page GMT
Orks are a fun army. Who cares if they are top tier, or if Pedro Kantor lists will krump them. The pro ork crowd will not convince the anti ork crowd of their position and vice versa. You guys might as well beat your heads against the wall, you are likely to get more out of it than this debate.

I feel orks are top tier because they are my favorite army. I'm pro Ork all the way. I have no scientific evidence that they are top tier, I just know. No one can change my opinion of that. just like no one will convince Frank otherwise. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Just play your army because you like it. Don't feel compelled to bludgeon someone else with "my opinion is right and yours is wrong!" Just have fun. It is afterall a game of toy soldiers!

Well, I've wasted enough time on the clock. Back to work!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852507.page GMT
Personal experience has no place in this debate because your personel experience is reletive to you and you only.

At least the tournement results give us a statistic to go by. Its still essentially "personal experience" but at least its across a much broader player base than what you yourself can give us.

If 20 critics give a restraunt a great rating and say their sushi is great...thats a much safer bet than listening to your opinion of how much "their sushi sucks", regardless of how much sushi you say you've eaten in the past.

Basically, we dont care how much of a 40k "God" you are. Any points you make based on your personal experience are meaningless in this debate.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852526.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852538.page GMT
First off Ellezzor, I know you're a big fan of Stelek, but you should take a hint from his sordid escapades and realise that outright rudeness accomplishes 2 things

1. banning from sites
2. making you look like an a$$ that noone really cares to listen to despite any valid points that you make

Second my only 'point' is that your personal experience here means nothing. I'm not argueing your stance in this thread at this time.

Third, reading must be pretty hard for some people...since you've yet to "get" what I'm talking about.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852573.page GMT
I'm not a big fan by any means, let's disavow everyone of that notion now. I don't know him, but I like what he's trying to do - make people better at the game. Maybe you'd be happier only playing scrubs all day, getting hollow wins that require little or no effort, but us grown ups prefer a challenge.

I've only been rude to people in response to them being an ass. I could really care less about being banned from Dakka - I don't WANT banned, but I really don't care, if the powers that be can't take dissenting opinion, fine. I think people should be helped to become better at the game. Just because your friends don't like him doesn't mean you have to feel the same, and, from where I'm standing, he's made as positive an impact on the game as any other individual.

It's refreshing to read his comments - even if he's wrong, he's never two-faced about it. At least, in my experience. Then again...supposedly that means nothing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852588.page GMT [/quote]

So, my point that states that your personal experience has no bearing on this discussion is no point at all.

Gotcha.

Must be nice to be able to stick your head in the sand whenever you want to and keep on "debating".


EDIT: btw, misspelling my name doesnt bother me, just so everyone is clear that you're losing THAT race. Happy to offend you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852599.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852635.page GMT
In a debate....Statistics > "I did this"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852639.page GMT
The cranky old man of Dakka has been awakened.
Temporary block whilst I see if people need to get off my lawn.



[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
OK, warnings have been given out. Be advised that at this point forward, posts should follow Rule #1, or risk strong disciplinary action, including suspension and banning if appropriate.

If you have made an errant post that appears after this warning, and come across the warning after, you are strongly advised to edit that post quickly. All posts in violation after this warning will be treated most harshly.

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]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852643.page GMT
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852742.page GMT Probably better I just shut up.

Yeah those stinkin' Orks... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852771.page GMT That they could win a Super Bowl, uhm...Grand Tournament, with Barry Switzer as their Coach, uhm...Player, it tells you just how dominant that team was in the mid 90's. And as a diehart Steelers fan, it pains me to say that.

Let the dust settle on this tourney season. New IG puts a crimp in Orks. Using Deffrollas against vehicles is a huge boon to Orks. Orks have been knocked down the metagame pecking order a little. But, Orks still have some big advantages - notably being a non-MEQ army in a game where 2/3 of the armies at a tourney are an MEQ. Orks might need matchups a little more than some other armies, but they can still win a lot of tourney games. I can't believe that's just because all the other players are idiots.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852781.page GMT
I think you'll find a 3+ is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than a 2+.[/quote]


I don't agree with most of what this guy says, but he is right on the money here. That KoS codex was crazy good. Imagine if right now, you could have 2 Warbosses, and 2 KFFs? Imagine if the 2 Burnaz in Snkkrots mob rolled 2d6 for Armor Penetration? Imagine if Grot Riggers were rolled at the start of your turn, so you could repair your vehicle, then move in the same turn. Looted Land Raiders anyone?


Other stuff coming, but that needed to be clarified.




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[quote=Danny Internets]All experience is personal to someone, including tournament outcomes.[/quote]


I think what he means, is that you can't give your opinion as a [b]fact[/b], based solely on your personal experience. That is all relative. You can base your opinion off of that all you want, but don't come here spouting it as fact.


Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852798.page GMT

I think what he means, is that you can't give your opinion as a [b]fact[/b], based solely on your personal experience. That is all relative. You can base your opinion off of that all you want, but don't come here spouting it as fact.


Clay[/quote]
Fair point, but I'm unclear on where I did that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852861.page GMT
No doubt.
No matter how bad-ass we might all think our army is, were all still playing with toy soldiers.
There is an inherent limit on the serious factor associated with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852940.page GMT
Emphasis mine. Your army doesn't rock; your opponents fail at 5th Edition.

[quote]I thought orks were a pushover army.[/quote]

And well you might, since they have less anti-tank than most!

[quote]Then I played the first round of 'Ard Boyz against a 3 Battlewagon list with 2 full squads of lootas.[/quote]

What else did he have, because that right thurr is barely 800pts assuming he didn't have ridiculous wargear on the Wagons.

[quote]Did the battle wagons survive? No. Did the lootaz survive? One squad did. Who won? Orks.[/quote]

How?...

[quote]If I killed some of his guys, it didn't matter. He controlled the objectives, and he protected the objectives he controlled. I don't know if orks can ever overpower an opponent. But they can win games in 5th edition, they can take objectives arguably better than any other troop in the game (30 fearless orks is hard to take off of an objective).[/quote]

Nowhere near as hard as 10 Grey Knights in a Land Raider.

Seriously, how did you not win?

[quote]They can take their kill points too (30 orks vs 10 marines is an attrition battle, and if orks get the charge...).[/quote]

You had fucking Grey Knights! [i]Grey Knights![/i] [i][b]In Land Raiders![/i][/b] How do you not kill 30 Orks every single turn with each full squad of Grey Knights? Moreover, how will the Orks EVER get the charge if you're in a Land Raider?

[quote]How did he win? On every charge he got his orks all the way around my vehicles. When his powerclaw killed it, my grey knights couldn't get out, and were killed. I understand that a lot of units can do this, but with 30 models it is a lot easier.[/quote]

You sir have done something terribly wrong.

[quote]I don't care for orks, I will never play a game with them. But do they suck? are they a lower tier army? No.[/quote]

You lose to them and that makes them awesome? That's not how it works, m'friend. Otherwise Grey Knights would be the top tier of everything, and would in fact be so competetive that they'd have to invent a whole 'nuther tournament just to contain the competetiveness. Seriously, these boys can do everything BUT kill tanks; and even then, give them a charge at something AV10 and they'll stand a reasonable chance of whacking it. I win with them a lot, and I lose to them a lot as well.

Unfortunately personal experience counts for nothing in terms of determining how competetive an army is. Which is a shame, because I quite like the idea of winning the Throne of Skulls with my Stern/ BroCap Psycannon-spam list.

[quote=Hulksmash]1) A strong army will still have problems with their rock army. You give me any build of any army and i'll show you a solid take all comers list that is the paper to your rock. You'll say well if everyone built competatively then those take all comers wouldn't be there which is silly but seems to be what you really believe. Maybe competative 40k only has 4 viable army builds according to you.[/quote]

According to the ruleset. Blame me for whatever, don't pin 5th Edition on me.

[quote]Again you didn't understand what I was saying about the Tau or your choosing to be deliberately obtuse.[/quote]

MAKE me understand, then. All you seem to be saying is "Tau suck against hordes", which is patently not true.

[quote]Which is your choice and cool but your still yelling orks suck with no proof to back it up.[/quote]

That's not what I'm doing at all, and I've laid my arguments bare over the course of two threads now. If you're still not getting it try going back and perusing them again.

[quote]2) In Regard to the Tyrannid comments.

12 Warriors in 2 squads (at 2k) w/12 deathspitters and +1st is a lot of boom. Add in 4 Carnies (3 heavy carnies) and 2 Hive Tyrants and you've got a very very respectable firepower list that can brawl up close. You use gaunts and create a leveled cover system which keeps your shooters and heavy hitters safe as they close. I said spam and I meant spam. 12 St6 Blast Templates is more than any other army out there can put out so it is spamming an excellent unit. [/quote]

12 BS2 templates. For 300+ points. It's not the worst way to run Tyranids I suppose, I'll give you that, not at 2000pts anyway. I'd wonder how it'd cope with AV12, but you've probably got some sort of anecdote about pweening a Mechvet list to prove how awesome it is.

[quote=Lord Solar Plexus]Yes, let me correct myself: I’m sure some do, and I’m sure others don’t. Even skimming the abundance of BatReps here and elsewhere is ample evidence of that. Some go go great lengths to ensure they stand a chance while others simply take what they have painted or like best at that point.[/quote]

There's also a third "some" who run balanced 5th Edition lists rather than taking "cheese" lists (the 1st "some") or whatever they have to hand (the 2nd "some"). The third "some" are the minority.

[quote]Even then there is simply no good reason why only Orks (or shall we say: supposedly weak codices) would show up with a competetive list - especially when that isn't even possible from those books, which is what you assert so forcefully.[/quote]

It isn't. Ork players don't make competetive lists - at best they look through their Codex and think "opponents won't be able to deal with this -- I'll put that in my list!". Look at the AV14 coping strategies for evidence. Most players use the balance of their list to cope with AV14-heavy armies; Ork players throw Battlewagons and Power Klaws galore at them in an attempt to out-spam the Raider-spam.

[quote]There is no reason why they should show up with a better list than others. Some people have suggested that because the die-hard Ork players had to put up with an outdated codex for so long, they have gotten better at playing than people with more “forgiving” (newer, more competitive) armies but I don't think that is right. Despite being the target of much ridicule, SM players (or Eldar or IG players) will and can be just as experienced.[/quote]

None of those three armies are anywhere near as forgiving as the Orks. Inb4 "BUT IG CAN GET FIVE MILLIONSANDDREAD TANKS!" Build a 1500pt IG list and see what you get for your points.

[quote]So you keep asserting, yes. To be honest - whoah, extremely bad pun avoided at the last second! -,[/quote]

Just as well, really. You're not Frank enough to pull it off ;D

[quote]I believe that this will remain a minority opinion for the foreseeable future though. Not that I think that you care but hey.[/quote]

It will, and indeed I hope it does too; that way when I come to a club and kick the reigning super-champ Ork player around the table with my grotty Tau list, people will think I'm awesome.

[quote]It isn’t? This sentence evoked lots of mental question marks: "If people stopped gearing their armies towards playing people they play every week and instead built them towards taking on 5th Edition armies, the Orks would most likely stop doing well."[/quote]

As in, the opponents that they play every week. Codexes don't enter into it. If you play an Ork player every week you will most likely gear your list towards beating him. That's fine; just don't call that list an "all-comers" list, take it to a tournament and expect it to be able to beat every Ork list going.

[quote]Ergo, they at least take Orks into account. Why in all the heavens do they then not fare any better? Why would they be stupid if those lists they actually bring are geared to tackle Orks, too, since if they play them and gear towards what they play against this is the conclusion? I’m afraid simply calling everyone stupid doesn’t cut it.[/quote]

If I'm Doin' It Wrong, and I usually play an Ork player who takes no vehicles and a million SHoota Boyz, my list will be geared towards killing lots of Boyz. If I then Do It Moar Wrong, go to a tournament and face a Battlewagon spammer, my list is geared towards killing lots of Boyz. Do you see how that's bad?

[quote]People take stupid, uncompetetive lists. People gear their armies towards what they are used to play against. If they indeed play against Orks much, then gearing against them (as well) is neither stupid nor uncompetetive but quite reasonable - regardless of what we think about the quality of the codex, there's no doubt that there are many Ork players at tournaments.[/quote]

All of whom play a list that is a variation on a theme - the theme being "boy howdy I sure hope my opponent hasn't got any [x/y/z] to kill/ avoid my [a/b/c]!" A list that contains lots of [x] to counter lots of [a] will invariably fail it against a list that contains much [b] instead. Simple algebra. If, however, your list contains no specific counters to [a/b/c], but is built and played around the idea of tackling everything, you'll do better.

[quote]If however the lists are as stupid as you think, then they are not optimized to deal with Orks, and that can only mean that people do not play against them. In every other case, they would take that into account. Whatever way I look at it, your reasoning breaks down at one point or the other.[/quote]

Because you're looking at it wrong.

[quote]Regardless of these considerations, there is another aspect that I do not understand: If the Ork codex is not a proper 5th edition codex, then how does optimizing other lists to tackle 5th edition codices help against one that isn't?[/quote]

First, you tell me how you optimise an Ork list. How do you do that? Lootas? Rokkits? Tankbustas (alololol)? What?

Way I see it you can't optimise an Ork list. It relies on the opponent being unable to deal with what it brings to the table, and as such the closest to "optimisation" you could get would be to take a little bit of everything. Which would suck, because then you wouldn't have enough of anything to overwhelm an unprepared oppo. You could also just look at the tourney scene, look through other Codexes, see what Ork units people whinge about most, and cram your list with those. That way you'll rock 90% of people you play, until you hit someone who knows what they're doing at which point you either play the game of your life or get Massacred.

[quote]Keep your internet platitudes, they bore me. [/quote]

Platitudes?... Well lah-di-dah, Mr. "I have failed to comprehend anything that's been going on thus far but I demand in a Teutonically arrogant way that you answer my non-points anyway!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852978.page GMT

I think what he means, is that you can't give your opinion as a [b]fact[/b], based solely on your personal experience. That is all relative. You can base your opinion off of that all you want, but don't come here spouting it as fact.


Clay[/quote]
Fair point, but I'm unclear on where I did that.[/quote]



4) Few (if any) of you play the game right. Insult? No, fact.




[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote][b]It isn't. Ork players don't make competetive lists - at best they look through their Codex and think "opponents won't be able to deal with this -- I'll put that in my list!". Look at the AV14 coping strategies for evidence. Most players use the balance of their list to cope with AV14-heavy armies; Ork players throw Battlewagons and Power Klaws galore at them in an attempt to out-spam the Raider-spam. [/b][/quote]



Unfair generalization here Frank. You don't seem to lump all Marine players into one category, why would you lump all Ork players into one?


Secondly, if you played an army with no melta weapons, wouldn't you figure out what in the codex could kill a Land Raider and include at least some of that? I really think you are being very close minded about this. You spout off a lot of things as if they were fact, then ignore anyone else who counters with a different opinion. Everyone's opinion in this thread is worth exactly the same thing, nothing. That's all you have is opinion, and my opinion is different.

The people in the Stelek camp have a perfect opportunity to show us all up in the Ard Boyz. They should bring a "best of" list from his site, or put together a competitive all-comers 5th edition codex list, and wipe us all out right? Let's see how well that works out for them in round 2.


The thing is, I live/play in a very competitive environment in the Atlanta area. There are a lot of strong players here, and they don't bring "weak" lists. These guys rummage through the codexes with the best of them, and find every competitive edge they can get their hands on, and guess what? They bring Chaos with Lash, Daemons, Orks and the like to events. That runs exactly opposite of what you and Stelek have to say.

Now, are these guys such bad players that they have it that far wrong? No way, no how, at least until you prove otherwise. I would put 5+ guys one on one from the Atlanta metro area up against anyone with total confidence that they wouldn't get rolled, and in fact, would win more than they lost. Naturally, this is all my opinion, and means as much to you, as your opinion means to me. But you can see how different conclusions can be drawn here.


Either way, i am looking forward to seeing how Orks do in round 2.


Clay


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/852983.page GMT
Now we've established the where, let's explain the why.

Infantry do not have a 360* arc of sight. Dreadnoughts do not have a 360* arc of sight. Most people play they do. This is wrong.

Little to do with Orks (except that it invariably makes Tankbustas better.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853095.page GMT
I know what his point was, but it's hypocritical to cite one set of biased information (tournament results) as being "good" data and another set (someone's experience) as being "bad" data. Frankly, they're both bad (with respect to objectivity), and for the same reasons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853123.page GMT
Now we've established the where, let's explain the why.

Infantry do not have a 360* arc of sight. Dreadnoughts do not have a 360* arc of sight. Most people play they do. This is wrong.

Little to do with Orks (except that it invariably makes Tankbustas better.)[/quote]

Infantry don't have 360 arc of sight?
Really?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853131.page GMT
Infantry don't have 360 arc of sight?
Really?[/quote]

Really.

P.16:
[i]Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body of at least one of the
models in the target unit (for ‘body’ we mean its head,
torso, legs and arms).[/i]

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853142.page GMT
I know what his point was, but it's hypocritical to cite one set of biased information (tournament results) as being "good" data and another set (someone's experience) as being "bad" data. Frankly, they're both bad (with respect to objectivity), and for the same reasons.[/quote]


While that may be true in general;


You can certainly draw more conclusions from a National event, than a local environment.




Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853168.page GMT
I know what his point was, but it's hypocritical to cite one set of biased information (tournament results) as being "good" data and another set (someone's experience) as being "bad" data. Frankly, they're both bad (with respect to objectivity), and for the same reasons.[/quote]


While that may be true in general;


You can certainly draw more conclusions from a National event, than a local environment.




Clay[/quote]

Example: Who's the better swimmer? The winner of a local competition, or the winner of the Olympics ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853175.page GMT
Infantry don't have 360 arc of sight?
Really?[/quote]

Really.

P.16:
[i]Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body of at least one of the
models in the target unit (for ‘body’ we mean its head,
torso, legs and arms).[/i]

[/quote]

Danny, I love you. <3

Most people need that spelled out to them...it's gotten pretty depressing.


In reference to the local vs National debate:

I refer you back to my information about the UK ToS Finals - most players didn't care about winning, so played fluff/fun armies.
Also, if Stelek is to be believed on the issue, his local area has been using Mech lists better and longer than the majority of players. I know some who still don't see how and why Mech bets them every time. Mostly young players, but the point stands.

I have no doubt that the metagame of most Dakkaites is better than the average Sri Lankan player. For example, no offence to Sri Lankans.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853185.page GMT
Example: Who's the better swimmer? The winner of a local competition, or the winner of the Olympics [/quote]

Our local tournaments have 40 people.
The 'Ard Boyz tournament I just attended, part of a national event, had 3 participants including myself.

The latter is a better indicator of skill/prowess/etc...how?

Anyways, the point is that every bit of data gathered is biased one one way or the other, so you can't simply discount some opinions and not others based on that fact, which is pervasive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853209.page GMT RAW here, because since Models in the firing unit do not block line of sight, cant he just look through the back of his own head? I mean, thats the RAW version, which would indeed mean they have a 360 degree arc of fire....


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=Danny Internets][quote=Jamora]

Example: Who's the better swimmer? The winner of a local competition, or the winner of the Olympics [/quote]

Our local tournaments have 40 people.
The 'Ard Boyz tournament I just attended, part of a national event, had 3 participants including myself.

The latter is a better indicator of skill/prowess/etc...how?

Anyways, the point is that every bit of data gathered is biased one one way or the other, so you can't simply discount some opinions and not others based on that fact, which is pervasive.[/quote]



Of course the first round will be like that Danny. But in the 2nd round it should get better, and then the finals will get even better. FAR better of an example than your local 40 man RTT events. The point is, we aren't discounting Frank's data, he is discounting ours. Our point, is that basically, our opinion is based on something that involves a better cross reference of players than a local event does. Does that mean its the final word on how good Orks are? No. Does it mean we have proven our point? No. What it does, is provide a more clear example of why we believe what we do than Frank saying over and over again that tournament results don't mean a thing, only his opinion matters.



Clay



Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853233.page GMT
I agree, point being that simply being a national event don't necessarily bestow validity to conclusions drawn from its results.

Furthermore, the more barriers to entry for the events (traveling long distances, travel expenses, etc) the more you bias the results by weeding out players not willing or not able to participate. For instance, I love tournaments, but I'm not willing to fly across the country and pay over $100 to participate in a GT; I could be the greatest player in the world, but you'd never know it if you restrict the discussion to the results of national tournaments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853259.page GMT
Example: Who's the better swimmer? The winner of a local competition, or the winner of the Olympics [/quote]

Our local tournaments have 40 people.
The 'Ard Boyz tournament I just attended, part of a national event, had 3 participants including myself.

The latter is a better indicator of skill/prowess/etc...how?

Anyways, the point is that every bit of data gathered is biased one one way or the other, so you can't simply discount some opinions and not others based on that fact, which is pervasive.[/quote]

I'm just curious here...what were the reasons of these 37 people to not attend 'Ard Boyz? Just seems a bit strange, as our Ard Boyz turnout was roughly the same as the RTTs in the same shop. It just seems crazy that out of 40 people dedicated enough to WH40k to go to RTTs(and wow 40 person RTTs..that is awesome!!), only 3 of them would attend a tournament with actual cash prizes... I'm just curious as to what motivated them.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853305.page GMT
I agree, point being that simply being a national event don't necessarily bestow validity to conclusions drawn from its results.

Furthermore, the more barriers to entry for the events (traveling long distances, travel expenses, etc) the more you bias the results by weeding out players not willing or not able to participate. For instance, I love tournaments, but I'm not willing to fly across the country and pay over $100 to participate in a GT; I could be the greatest player in the world, but you'd never know it if you restrict the discussion to the results of national tournaments.[/quote]


Point taken, but shouldn't you be addressing Frank here? We are saying that national level events, Adepticon, Ard Boyz, and things like that are STILL a better gauge of how good an army is, than a local group playing against themselves. While Frank, is disregarding any national level event, to insist that local play has born out the FACT that Orks aren't a competitive list at all.




Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853325.page GMT
Infantry don't have 360 arc of sight?
Really?[/quote]

Really.

P.16:
[i]Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body of at least one of the
models in the target unit (for ‘body’ we mean its head,
torso, legs and arms).[/i]

[/quote]

And you can always turn to face whatever you want to in the shooting phase. I don't have my BGB handy but even in some of the examples for movement/shooting they give early in the book, I', pretty sure it says something along the lines that it does not matter which way you face your troops but it always looks good to have two armies face to face or something to that regard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853409.page GMT
I am really confused with this discussion. Orks suck because they suck against Landraiders? Ok, what's 3 lascannons going to do against 30 boys and a PK? Oh, the guys inside the raider are going to bail out and fight- nice, you just lost your AV14 advantage. I'm still befuzzled (c)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853530.page GMT
Infantry don't have 360 arc of sight?
Really?[/quote]

Really.

P.16:
[i]Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body of at least one of the
models in the target unit (for ‘body’ we mean its head,
torso, legs and arms).[/i]

[/quote]

And you can always turn to face whatever you want to in the shooting phase. I don't have my BGB handy but even in some of the examples for movement/shooting they give early in the book, I', pretty sure it says something along the lines that it does not matter which way you face your troops but it always looks good to have two armies face to face or something to that regard.[/quote]

Yes you are right, Danny Internets and Elessar are also right, but what they are saying doesn't really matter(in most cases) as you can turn your models to face whatever you want to shoot anyway.

[i]pg 12. As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. [b]Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase[/b], so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their movement phase.[/i]

Most people don't turn their models to face things, because it's a waste of time, most of the time, to do so. In some cases I can see the need to check LOS, but most of the time it's obvious.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/853617.page GMT LOS - you cannot turn to shoot something that no member of the unit was not previously facing.

Page 16 defines targeting, and states you require LOS to declare something a target. Ergo, you must end the MOVEMENT phase facing any potential target.

Back to Orks.

@Keyasa:
AV14 is [i]part[/i] of the problem.
Seer Coucils
MechDar and DEldar in general
TH/SS Termies
IG, esp AirCav
Mech Witch Hunters
Even Dreads when Telion snipes you in the Nob.

Also, apart from on Vendettas, who on earth has 3 Lascannons on something?!?
All of these are things Orks have great difficulty with/find impossible. If it were only AV14, there'd be no argument.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854733.page GMT LOS - you cannot turn to shoot something that no member of the unit was not previously facing.

Page 16 defines targeting, and states you require LOS to declare something a target. Ergo, you must end the MOVEMENT phase facing any potential target.

[/quote]

Sorry.. but I believe your blatantly wrong on this, so as not to derail this thread, I'll start a thread over in the rules questions area.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854841.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854844.page GMT
1. Orks have difficulty with some things.

2. The results of tournament nation wide is to subjective to be used as evidence.

To the first point, just because an army has difficulties and weaknesses versus certain units doesn't make them any less competitive if you compare that to how they perform in other areas of the game. This argument relies on discussing Orks in a Vacuum and taking out the consideration that other fifth edition codexes don't have their own weaknesses. Unless you want to make the argument that Guard suck because they have no good answer to close combat!

To the second point, sure the national results are subjective, but it doesn't discount that there are certain trends in competitive 40k. There are a lot of Ork players winning a lot of games in a lot of tournaments. THe best argument against this simple fact has been "well their opponent's must have sucked". I have seen some of the best gamers in my area play games featuring Orks, IG, and Space Marines. The Orks always seem to hold their own.

So what does this all mean, I think we are experiencing something that 40k players are just not used to, a more balanced game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854857.page GMT 40k. There are a lot of Ork players winning a lot of games in a lot of tournaments. THe best argument against this simple fact has been "well their opponent's must have sucked". I have seen some of the best gamers in my area play games featuring Orks, IG, and Space Marines. The Orks always seem to hold their own. [/quote]

One of the trends in 40k is that people tend to play bad (ie, poorly optimized) lists, even in tournaments. This has been stated numerous times throughout the thread, and is central to the position that Orks are not competitive.

And to counterbalance your own experience, my club has a lot of competitive players that perform exceedingly well in tournaments. None of us have any problems with Orks, and as a result Orks tend to fare very poorly in this area (with respect to competitive events). In fact, I haven't seen an Ork player even place in the top 3 in any of the last 12 tournaments I've attended in the past year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/854975.page GMT 40k is that people tend to play bad (ie, poorly optimized) lists, even in tournaments. This has been stated numerous times throughout the thread, and is central to the position that Orks are not competitive. [/quote]

But that is just answering subjective data with a subjective argument.

It requires a fair amount of personal bias to say that the results and trends taking place is because of conditions that favor a particular argument.

I am not arguing that looking at the results of any sort of tournament, albeit National or Local, is concrete evidence. You have too many factors you have to account for that can dictate a particular races performance. You can argue that the majority of Ork players play the list badly, just as much as you can argue that the majority of their opponents are pants-on-head mentally handicapped. Each supports one side of the argument but neither can be taken seriously.

[quote]And to counterbalance your own experience, my club has a lot of competitive players that perform exceedingly well in tournaments. None of us have any problems with Orks, and as a result Orks tend to fare very poorly in this area (with respect to competitive events). In fact, I haven't seen an Ork player even place in the top 3 in any of the last 12 tournaments I've attended in the past year.[/quote]

What kind of lists are prevalent in your area, and have Orks adapted? Some more data for a comparative study helps keep this discussion on the level.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855027.page GMT
It also requires a fair amount of personal bias to say that the results and trends taking place are NOT because of said conditions.

[quote]What kind of lists are prevalent in your area, and have Orks adapted? Some more data for a comparative study helps keep this discussion on the level.[/quote]

Orks actually have a strong presence at the tournaments in this area (not performance-wise, but in terms of overall representation). Mostly Nob bikers and, more recently, fully mechanized armies, but there are also some horde Ork players and miscellaneous as well. Both of the good Ork players I know who participate in tournaments have given them up in favor of other armies though, citing their inability to keep up with better armies (they have since enjoyed more success with Vulkan Marines and Daemon Hunters, respectively).

And to extend the frame of reference, MEQs are more prevalent here than usual, at least from my experience playing in a few different areas on the east coast. With the exception of the last tournament I attended (mech vets won), marines usually sweep the top spots. And the tournaments are fairly large, each consisting of 35-40 participants.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855047.page GMT
In response to:

[quote][b]It isn't. Ork players don't make competetive lists - at best they look through their Codex and think "opponents won't be able to deal with this -- I'll put that in my list!". Look at the AV14 coping strategies for evidence. Most players use the balance of their list to cope with AV14-heavy armies; Ork players throw Battlewagons and Power Klaws galore at them in an attempt to out-spam the Raider-spam. [/b][/quote]

It's not a generalisation. It's not a jab at Ork players. It's not that I'm saying Ork players deliberately buy the Codex just so's they can no-brain their way through useless opposition. A lot of Ork players probably put a helluva lot of thought into their lists and models and whatnot.

All I'm saying is that, no matter how much thought you put into your Ork list, the net result is the same; if you meet someone who isn't worried by you, with a list that can handle what your Orks are bringing to the table, you're liable to get a pounding. Same could be said of a lot of Smurf lists too, except that the Smurf Codex also contains a lot of useful stuff amidst the fluff-driven crap.

[quote]Secondly, if you played an army with no melta weapons, wouldn't you figure out what in the codex could kill a Land Raider and include at least some of that?[/quote]

There's a lot in the Ork Codex that can kill a Land Raider, under the right circumstances. If you manage to get your Deffrolla into a Ram it might work. If you manage to get a few Powerklaws hitting the thing, it might work. A properly played Land Raider though, probably not.

So yeah, include all the Powerklaws and Deffrollas you want, and throw in some Zzap Guns and whatever else you fancy too. Fact is none of them work with more than 50% reliability against properly-played LRs, whereas the LRs will do what they do on every single turn of the game.

[quote]I really think you are being very close minded about this. You spout off a lot of things as if they were fact, then ignore anyone else who counters with a different opinion.[/quote]

I don't "ignore" anyone; I've spent a lot of time answering the things people put to me. What I'm doing is refuting what I find to be untrue, which is a lot different from ignoring it. What's the point in taking someone else's opinion on board when I know it's wrong? All that does is muddle the data.

As far as hurting people's feelings by refuting what they're saying and calling the Ork Codex out for what it is, all I can say is "meh". If reading this stuff bothers you it's your own fault for beating nuggets with an uncompetetive army and then thinking you're awesome because of it.

[quote]Everyone's opinion in this thread is worth exactly the same thing, nothing. That's all you have is opinion, and my opinion is different.[/quote]

The thing is your opinion doesn't seem to be based on observable evidence. A lot of the Ork players I know have bought Orks to use as a "tournament army", some because they've seen all the whingeing people do about Orks and decided to get them some of the powergame goodness, some because they realise that the Orks are incredibly powerful against unprepared opposition. These folks bring hard lists to pretty much every game they play, and I haven't seen a single one yet that hasn't crumbled in the face of a properly played 5th Edition list.

[quote]The people in the Stelek camp have a perfect opportunity to show us all up in the Ard Boyz. They should bring a "best of" list from his site, or put together a competitive all-comers 5th edition codex list, and wipe us all out right? Let's see how well that works out for them in round 2.[/quote]

Apparently there are a lot of Vulkan Bikers in round 2, plus at least one Best Of Tau list that I know of. So yeah, I suppose we'll see.

[quote]The thing is, I live/play in a very competitive environment in the Atlanta area. There are a lot of strong players here, and they don't bring "weak" lists. These guys rummage through the codexes with the best of them, and find every competitive edge they can get their hands on, and guess what? They bring Chaos with Lash, Daemons, Orks and the like to events. That runs exactly opposite of what you and Stelek have to say.[/quote]

No it doesn't. That's the same thing people do round here, and it's the same mentality that people have when they bring Raider-spam and Drop Pod armies to tournaments thinking they can cheese their way to a decent placing. Nine times out of ten it works, but, just like the Orks, once you meet someone who has your Lash/ Raiders/ Sternies figured out, you're going to lose a game. It usually doesn't matter in the long run because you can still place by winning the other 4 or whatever, but you'll still lose a game.

[quote]Now, are these guys such bad players that they have it that far wrong? No way, no how, at least until you prove otherwise.[/quote]

The only way we can prove otherwise is when everyone else brings a hard 5th Edition list that accounts for and deals with the cheese, and indeed everything else, to a tourney. Otherwise these people will still be able to reap the rewards their poorly-constructed lists bring against dodgy oppo.


[quote=Primarch]Point taken, but shouldn't you be addressing Frank here? We are saying that national level events, Adepticon, Ard Boyz, and things like that are STILL a better gauge of how good an army is, than a local group playing against themselves. While Frank, is disregarding any national level event, to insist that local play has born out the FACT that Orks aren't a competitive list at all.[/quote]

9 pages and you're still not on the trolley yet.

Play locally, play nationally, play wherever you want to. Go and play on Mars if you like (don't wake the Dragon though). Until they either A) release a new Orks Codex, or B) release 6th Edition and gear it towards armies whose only strategy is to rely on their opponents to suck, then the Orks won't be a competetive codex.

[quote=Keyasa]I seriously don't see what the problem is here. The whole arguement is based on subjective opinions; Orks are bad because they can't deal with AV14.[/quote]

No, that's not it at all. Read the thread back.

[quote]But can't Orks deal with everything else just as well as anybody else?[/quote]

No.

[quote]I am really confused with this discussion. Orks suck because they suck against Landraiders? Ok, what's 3 lascannons going to do against 30 boys and a PK? Oh, the guys inside the raider are going to bail out and fight- nice, you just lost your AV14 advantage. I'm still befuzzled (c)[/quote]

That's because you're focussing far too much on the fact that Orks have no reliable way to crack AV14. Reread the thread. Start from page two. I know it's a lot of work, but it'll allow you to ground yourself in the actual discussion taking place and join in properly.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855092.page GMT
This can get circular really fast, but you are arguing the greater fallacy. You are taking the results and what you see from your local area and applying it to the greater whole.

It's like only ever watching your favorite football team at home, seeing an outside team constantly loose to your home team, and then have outside team make it to the super bowl. The only "obvious" rational was that the rest of the teams must be such loosers as to loose to this outside team which clearly sucks from your personal experience.

Warhammer 40k doesn't have the player stats, the game reporting, or the honest assessment of skill levels that professional sports do to accurately judge the performance of a particular race.

That is not to say there isn't a definitive competitive gap between races. I can quote how well Necrons do all day, but that isn't going to make Necrons magically better by proxy.

We will see what the second round of the Aard Boyz brings and see if the results are clearer. Another tournament to look at is this week's Necro that has a fair amount of cometitive gamers and a fair amount of Ork players (and a fair amount of cross over between the two).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855157.page GMT
[quote=Keyasa]
[quote]I am really confused with this discussion. Orks suck because they suck against Landraiders? Ok, what's 3 lascannons going to do against 30 boys and a PK? Oh, the guys inside the raider are going to bail out and fight- nice, you just lost your AV14 advantage. I'm still befuzzled (c)[/quote]

That's because you're focussing far too much on the fact that Orks have no reliable way to crack AV14. Reread the thread. Start from page two. I know it's a lot of work, but it'll allow you to ground yourself in the actual discussion taking place and join in properly.
[/quote] [/quote]

I tried, I really did, but it's nine pages and I couldn't focus (too much brandy). Plus there was a patch of paint drying on the wall which kept distracting me.

However, in the interests of properly joining in with what is turning into a good debate, I'll commence with a glad heart...


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855265.page GMT
Rupert's Ruin, old bean.

Another salient point I feel I should mention; if you want to join in the discussion feel free, just make sure you're on the same page as the rest of us. Seems like common courtesy to me. If you find it boring, don't participate. It's fine. If you can't spend ten minutes of your life reading back over the thread, just go and do something else. Don't fret about it; nothing of value will be lost. Go and watch Corrie or something. Seriously, we'll manage without you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855319.page GMT
a) I have seen Orks do well in my local area/tournament, therefore they are good (you may have seen a special case), or;

b) I believe that Orks cannot do well, because they cannot deal with this list of things... (that may be irrelevant to winning the majority of your games), or even;

c) Army lists and codex strength is irrelevant, all that matters is the skill of the player (better tacticians will prevail with superior tools).

My personal opinion is that Orks do not do well against my army, a meched up and Landraidering Vulkan list. Others have different opinions.

What I find strange is that you can draw a parallel between this and discussions about Necrons, for example. A larger portion of the community agrees that Necrons have a poor codex (possibly the worst). Similarly for Tyranids. Yet several Necron and Tyranid armies have moved on to the next round.

I think the safest bet is to hold on to opinions deciding the 'best' armies out there based on the number of people that got through the first round of 'Ard Boyz. Let us see what armies are weeded out in at least the next round. It may even turn out that Orks, while not the 'best', will solidly announce themselves as 'competitive'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855359.page GMT LOS - you cannot turn to shoot something that no member of the unit was not previously facing.

Page 16 defines targeting, and states you require LOS to declare something a target. Ergo, you must end the MOVEMENT phase facing any potential target.

[/quote]

Everyone note this thread entry.


This is positively a SURE-FIRE way to get people to never want to play you again. A great example on how to become TFG.


Personal Note: If someone tried this on me in a tournement I would use the "model can see thru his own head because models in the unit dont block line of sight" defense. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855372.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855396.page GMT
The basic argument I have seen from the people proposing Orks suck/are overrated..whatever,

1)Orks in their area aren't doing well so this must mean that everyone else experience is the same or should be.
2)Orks have a hard time with certain lists-namely highly mechanized and more specifically landraider spam
3)Orks are a noobhammer army that don't require as much skill and tactics to win with, so therefore anyone that wins with orks are playing against inferior oponents or inferior lists.

Those 3 basic elements keep getting repeated over and over again.

OK we get it.......Now I suggest that the people defending the ork codex realize that the people attacking it are opinionated, and their opinions are based on their experiance that cannot be backed up by any facts whatsoever........and move on.

Your not going to convince them, and quite frankly you are just spinning your wheels here.

This thread has become a peeing contest IMO.

GG


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855436.page GMT
Could orks be better in lower points games ?

I went to stelek's blog and all of his Ork killer list are 2000 or 2500 pts.

Where i play our local tourney and games are usually 1500 or 1700 pts which limits a lot more the heavy/shiny stuff.

Also I've only seen once a raider spam army (3) and let me tell you that with all the melta running around in 5th ED they don't last that long once in range. So that's a lot of points in dead raider for a 1500 to 1700 game.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855501.page GMT There's a lot in the Ork Codex that can kill a Land Raider, under the right circumstances. If you manage to get your Deffrolla into a Ram it might work. If you manage to get a few Powerklaws hitting the thing, it might work. A properly played Land Raider though, probably not.
[/quote]

For the sake of argument say that Deffrollas work, how does a Land Raider heavy list, or even one with only one or two, deal with 4-6 Battlewagons with Deff Rollas/KFF? Long range shooting is failure against obscured AV14, even with open topped, and to use short range shooting you run a definite risk of being wiped out by Deff Rolla rams.

Yes, some lists have the mobility or firepower to deal with it, basic Marines to my knowledge don't really have the options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855733.page GMT

I could use the same first sentence against you. Then follow up with this; A lot of Ork players I know have bought Orks to use as a "tournament army", some because they've seen all the whingeing people do about Orks and decided to get them some of the powergame goodness, some because they realise that the Orks are incredibly powerful against unprepared opposition. These folks bring their hard lists to pretty much every game they play, and I haven't seen a single one yet that [b]has[/b] crumbled in the face of a properly played 5th Edition list.

You are only using the evidence of the local players that play Orks. I am doing the same, but with one exception. I am adding in all the national results. Where you are choosing to believe those results are worthless.



[quote][b]properly played 5th Edition list. [/b][/quote]


I'm willing to test your theory. Shoot me a pm with your definition of the above quote. Give me a list that I can take and use against some of the Ork lists, and I will give you a fair assessement when I'm done. You may convince me yet, but it's going to take something like this. Your definition of a properly played 5th edition list must somehow differ from mine.



Clay






]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/855918.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856028.page GMT
Wrong, if you lose with an army your a noob. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856112.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856119.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/856689.page GMT RAW here, because since Models in the firing unit do not block line of sight, cant he just look through the back of his own head? I mean, thats the RAW version, which would indeed mean they have a 360 degree arc of fire....
[/quote]

No, because "Line of sight [b]literally[/b] represents your warriors’ view of
the enemy – ... players will have to stoop
over the table for a ‘model’s eye view’. This means
getting down to the level of your warriors, [b]taking in
the view from behind the firing models[/b] to ‘see what
they can see’.

You are [i]allowed[/i] to shoot 360° (by turning the models - no need to do that if they had 360° field of vision) but you are not [i]forced[/i] to turn them facing anywhere you don't want them to. After that, you take a look from behind, not by staring at their eyes.

[quote=Frank Fugger]
Nowhere near as hard as 10 Grey Knights in a Land Raider.
[/quote]

One would hope so, seeing as that is considerably more points than 30 Orks. How hard it is to get them off of an objective is of course relative. Fire Dragon + Banshees would naturally have an easier time against the GK's.

[quote]
There's also a third "some" who run balanced 5th Edition lists rather than taking "cheese" lists (the 1st "some") or whatever they have to hand (the 2nd "some"). The third "some" are the minority.
[/quote]

Fine, although I consider a strong list to contain some balancing elements, and a balanced list to be inherently stronger in an all comers environment than one taken with background or real life reasons in mind. Dunno how far we disagree here.

[quote]
It isn't. Ork players don't make competetive lists - at best they look through their Codex and think "opponents won't be able to deal with this -- I'll put that in my list!". Look at the AV14 coping strategies for evidence. Most players use the balance of their list to cope with AV14-heavy armies; Ork players throw Battlewagons and Power Klaws galore at them in an attempt to out-spam the Raider-spam.
[/quote]

I don't know if the majority really thinks this way. I can imagine it is nice to have at least something that could possibly work in a pinch but the thought that opponents won't be able to handle X or Y as such doesn't strike me as outlandish. People take plaguebearers or AV14 or Wave Serpents or whatnot with precisely this motto, and if a majority of opponents cannot in fact deal with that, then you *have* brought a competetive list.


[quote]
None of those three armies are anywhere near as forgiving as the Orks. Inb4 "BUT IG CAN GET FIVE MILLIONSANDDREAD TANKS!" Build a 1500pt IG list and see what you get for your points.
[/quote]

That is why I offered alternative adjectives instead. I am painfully aware that IG tanks are expensive.

[quote]
It will, and indeed I hope it does too; that way when I come to a club and kick the reigning super-champ Ork player around the table with my grotty Tau list, people will think I'm awesome.
[/quote]

Wait...they don't already?!? What the...

[quote]
As in, the opponents that they play every week. Codexes don't enter into it. If you play an Ork player every week you will most likely gear your list towards beating him. That's fine; just don't call that list an "all-comers" list, take it to a tournament and expect it to be able to beat every Ork list going.
[/quote]

"Taking into account" is very different from "tailoring towards a single build". The latter is utter folly, and if that is indeed what is happening in tournaments, my world view lies in tatters. The former is the simple thought process (and, hopefully, according action) of "What if I chance upon X?", so you include some templates for crowd control, some autocannon for transport hunting etc.

[quote]
If I'm Doin' It Wrong, and I usually play an Ork player who takes no vehicles and a million SHoota Boyz, my list will be geared towards killing lots of Boyz. If I then Do It Moar Wrong, go to a tournament and face a Battlewagon spammer, my list is geared towards killing lots of Boyz. Do you see how that's bad?
[/quote]

I see how Doin' It Wrong is bad but you did not need to explain that, seeing as it is dangerously close to a tautology. I do not see that people actually Do It Wrong though. Of course the codex comes into this: The sheer variety of possible builds gives Orks as a faction an edge.

[quote]
All of whom play a list that is a variation on a theme - the theme being "boy howdy I sure hope my opponent hasn't got any [x/y/z] to kill/ avoid my [a/b/c]!" A list that contains lots of [x] to counter lots of [a] will invariably fail it against a list that contains much [b] instead. Simple algebra. If, however, your list contains no specific counters to [a/b/c], but is built and played around the idea of tackling everything, you'll do better.
[/quote]

The first part I agree with, the second, not so much. You need counters to threats, otherwise you cannot tackle everything. You need to include stuff to deal with monsters, vehicles, infantry of all calibres, fast stuff, resilient stuff etc. Sometimes, some tools will be wasted, as flamers don't help much against a Termi-heavy opponent. For example. To be more concrete, autocannon, assault cannon and scatter lasers will probably mince Speed Freaks/Trukk heavy Orks - if they can get enough shots off that is. I'm not really sure how they'd impress a horde or Kan Wall of Death. Of course one can argue that a horde player hopes not to meet a flamer-heavy opponent but I've yet to see a list with enough templates to worry - not if you'd like to have some tools for other jobs, too.

[quote]
First, you tell me how you optimise an Ork list. How do you do that? Lootas? Rokkits? Tankbustas (alololol)? What?
[/quote]

By taking the best you can get in spades - basic Orks, with a little support from elsewhere (Deffkoptas, Nobs, Kans). Note that I'm not saying one cannot deal with that at all. People could deal with the old IW lists, or EldarAirCav with indestructable skimmers, too - 'twas just a minority.

[quote]
Way I see it you can't optimise an Ork list. It relies on the opponent being unable to deal with what it brings to the table
[/quote]

Which I insist is a far too general statement and as such applies to each and every list. Not being able to deal with skimmers, MEQ, AV12, AV14, the opponent's mobility, not being able to handle FNP + T5, or T5 + 3+/5++ Sv, or re-rollable saves, you name it.

[quote]
Platitudes?... Well lah-di-dah, Mr. "I have failed to comprehend anything that's been going on thus far but I demand in a Teutonically arrogant way that you answer my non-points anyway!"[/quote]

That was actually pretty funny, Frank. :-) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/857170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/857170.page GMT
Apologies if earlier posts were argumentitive but I was getting involved in something without researching first (always a fools move).

And this is from an Ork player who loves his Orks, and his Necrons (only cos they paint up real easy) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/857346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/857346.page GMT [/quote]

There's nothing circular about it.

One can argue a point based on subjective data.

One cannot refute it on the grounds that it is subjective by using one's own subjective data without being hypocritical. You can acknowledge potential flaws in the data and doubt the conclusions drawn from them, but you cannot [i]refute[/i] them any more definitively than they were made in the first place.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858207.page GMT
Actually, it seems like one can, amirite?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858265.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858306.page GMT
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858336.page GMT
Some of the experience is broader (and therefore embodies greater external validity) than others, but it's all subjective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858345.page GMT [quote=Danny Internets]If one claims subjective data is an insufficient source from which to draw valid conclusions, then one can't use other subjective data to refute said conclusions. By one's own logic, the refutation is not adequately supported.[/quote]

What an eloquent way of pointing out what I giant turd this thread has become. Man it really smells like piss in here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858514.page GMT LOS - you cannot turn to shoot something that no member of the unit was not previously facing.
Page 16 defines targeting, and states you require LOS to declare something a target. Ergo, you must end the MOVEMENT phase facing any potential target.
[/quote]
Everyone note this thread entry.
This is positively a SURE-FIRE way to get people to never want to play you again. A great example on how to become TFG. [/quote]

Thanks for reminding me why I plonked Elessar. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858586.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858586.page GMT

[quote=Danny Internets]If one claims subjective data is an insufficient source from which to draw valid conclusions, then one can't use other subjective data to refute said conclusions. By one's own logic, the refutation is not adequately supported.[/quote]


I thought there was a vague consensus that while the first round results of 'Ard Boyz is flawed by a myriad of issues, further rounds will - to a reasonable amount - push this disagreement solidly into a single camp?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858815.page GMT LOS - you cannot turn to shoot something that no member of the unit was not previously facing.
Page 16 defines targeting, and states you require LOS to declare something a target. Ergo, you must end the MOVEMENT phase facing any potential target.
[/quote]
Everyone note this thread entry.
This is positively a SURE-FIRE way to get people to never want to play you again. A great example on how to become TFG. [/quote]

Thanks for reminding me why I plonked Elessar. [/quote]

Plonked? Not familiar with the word in this context.

Anyway,
[QUOTE]You are allowed to shoot 360° (by turning the models - no need to do that if they had 360° field of vision) but you are not forced to turn them facing anywhere you don't want them to. After that, you take a look from behind, not by staring at their eyes.
[/QUOTE] - See the Rules thread on this - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/249229.page#857606

[quote]Personal Note: If someone tried this on me in a tournement I would use the "model can see thru his own head because models in the unit dont block line of sight" defense. [/quote] - Do you allow Drop Pods to shoot through their own hull? If not, this is not a valid stance. Anyone who tries to pull this on you does so because they wish to actually use TLOS - as Alessio said he intended.

Whatever way you choose to play is fine, I really don't care, but don't kid yourself your playing RAW over RAI by ignoring this distinction. Note, that my way only makes Orks better than Frank says.

Now, so my post, unlike some, actually deals with the topic...

@Fearspect:

Yes, waiting for Ard Boyz Round 2 makes some sense...but, if Frank is right about the [i]extent[/i] of players who take weak lists to tournies - we all know at least some do, even Ard Boyz, then Orks will continue to thrive against poor lists. I don't consider 'competitive against poor lists' to = 'competitive'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/858875.page GMT TLOS - as Alessio said he intended.[/quote]

I hardly see how you can compare vehicle LOS with normal unit LOS, they are a completely different set of rules.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860165.page GMT LOS, and therefore vision, is drawn from the gun mounting, and along the barrel. Infantry LOS is drawn from the eyes.

Allowing an Infantryman to shoot through his OWN head is the exact same as allowing a vehicle to shoot through it's own hull.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860193.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860274.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860387.page GMT LOS, and therefore vision, is drawn from the gun mounting, and along the barrel. Infantry LOS is drawn from the eyes.

Allowing an Infantryman to shoot through his OWN head is the exact same as allowing a vehicle to shoot through it's own hull.[/quote]

Except non-vehicle units ignore models in their own unit for LOS. So how do you get that don't ignore shooting through the actual models head but you do ignore another model in the units head? RAW allows you to ignore models in that unit, the model you are drawing LOS from, is in that unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860391.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860431.page GMT KFF?[/quote]

Thoughts, off the top of my head...
= Mount Multimeltas. The more the better. Obviously the 5+ cover save will be a pain, but hey.
= Outmaneuver them. As the big block of Battlewagons closes on you it'll be easier to move 12" and PotMS a Lascannon shot into their side armour.
= Ram them back. Deffrollas don't work if I Ram you (or charge you, see below), and if you're moving your Wagons as a block so's they all get the KFF save it's not hard to throw one or two Land Raiders at them in such a way that they'll end up having to take a serious detour to get to the other three. If you're NOT moving them as a block so's they all get the KFF save then holding up the ones that are and picking off the ones that ain't seems like a sensible thing to do.
= If you've got enough infantry models to risk a few (and at 2500pts you bloody well should have) then simply charge the Battlewagons right out of the Raiders, after having PotMSed a shot at them of course. Sure you're hitting on 6es but at S4 versus Open-Topped rear AV10 Tactical Marines and Scouts have a reasonable chance to Wreck a Battlewagon without resorting to Krak Grenades. The odds improve drastically if your spare models are Termies, HQ Characters or the suchlike.
= If we're assuming Deffrollas work against vehicles, we can also assume that PotMS works after Ramming (which is a far safer assumption to make, if we're honest). Therefore you Ram and shoot. Even if it doesn't, it's not a massive problem.
= S10 still only has a 50% chance to Glance and a 30% chance to Penetrate AV14, and D6 doesn't automatically mean "6". The KFF save is a Guardsman's armour save, so you're going to fail it more than you pass.

My personal favourite, though, and the one most assured to work:
= Don't play a Raider-spam list.

As to lists with only one or two Raiders in them, how you stop the Wagon-spam all depends what else you're playing. If Wagons with Boyz are all he has throw your Land Speeders at them. Or your Scout Bikers; yeah you're going to lose the Scout Bikers, but that's hardly a crippling blow. He's losing a Deffrolla Battlewagon, which seems like a fair exchange. Bolt-Pistoling the rear armour and then charging should take a few of them out too, or at the very least cripple some for a turn or two. Then again you could just line up a load of Melta-toting Bikers in front of them and beat the hell out of the whole shebang in one go, then leave the Bikers to get eaten by whatever gets out of the Wagons as your Taccies in their Raiders sit on the objectives.

Seriously, there's a million and one tools to use against Battlewagons, even 'Ard-Case Deffrolla ones; your job is to make sure you've got enough of these tools available to you.

[quote]Yes, some lists have the mobility or firepower to deal with it, basic Marines to my knowledge don't really have the options.[/quote]

If anyone can do something, it's Vanilla Smurfs. Sure, running 6 pimped out full-strength Tactical Squads and 5 Land Raiders at 2500pts is going to lead to an unwieldy, gimped army, but that's what you get for not running an optimised list ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860687.page GMT KFF save on a vehicle is +4]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860698.page GMT GK's.[/quote]

Well done; now you're starting to look at the debate from the right perspective. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

[quote]Fine, although I consider a strong list to contain some balancing elements, and a balanced list to be inherently stronger in an all comers environment than one taken with background or real life reasons in mind. [b]Dunno how far we disagree here.[/b][/quote]

Not at all.

[quote]I don't know if the majority really thinks this way. I can imagine it is nice to have at least something that could possibly work in a pinch but the thought that opponents won't be able to handle X or Y as such doesn't strike me as outlandish.[/quote]

The problem being, of course, when you get to an opponent who CAN handle [x], [y] and [z], and can also handle [a], [b] and [c] as well. Raider-spam and the ease with which it gets swept aside by the likes of Mechdar, Vulkan Bikers and even Meltabomb-Blood Claws is a cautionary lesson as to why taking things purely because you don't think your opponent will have the tools to deal with them is a bad idea. The Ork Codex's problem is that the entire army list seems to have been built around this very tenet, and thus Ork players can do nothing BUT take stuff and count on their opponents not to be able to deal with it.

[quote]People take plaguebearers or AV14 or Wave Serpents or whatnot with precisely this motto, and if a majority of opponents cannot in fact deal with that, then you *have* brought a competetive list.[/quote]

However, if every opponent brings an optimised 5th Edition list and the skill-set to wipe your eye with it, your eye is going to get wiped.

[quote]That is why I offered alternative adjectives instead. I am painfully aware that IG tanks are expensive.[/quote]

My point was that people often whinge about the new IG Codex, pointing to it as an example of an overpowered army book. It's not overpowered at all, and attempting to build one of those 500 Artillery Shots And Also Here's Russes And Meltamechvetspamlolwtfbbq lists will show you that you really don't get much more for your money than you do with other armies.

What the IG Codex is, is a 5th Edition Codex. That's why you have trouble playing your 4th Edition lists against it. Not because WAAH THEY GET PLANES AND I DON'T.

[quote]Wait...they don't already?!? What the...[/quote]

No, because most people recognise that when I kill 90 Orks every turn just by throwing Kroot at them it's because the Ork player has brought a woefully shitty army list and I haven't. That's what you get for hanging around with people who have moved into 5th Edition; they just don't give you the plaudits you deserve for beating sub-par armies :(

LOL SARCASM

[quote]"Taking into account" is very different from "tailoring towards a single build". The latter is utter folly, and if that is indeed what is happening in tournaments, my world view lies in tatters. The former is the simple thought process (and, hopefully, according action) of "What if I chance upon X?", so you include some templates for crowd control, some autocannon for transport hunting etc.[/quote]

That's not how optimising works. Vulkan Bikers are optimised (well, they are if you take Vulkan, throw him the hell away and buy another fscking Bike Squad) because every unit in the list can deal with everything with the addition of a few Melta weapons. Mechdar are optimised because their (cheap-ass, points-wise) Serpents can move 12" and either Lance you or drop Fire Dragons on your face while you, in return, never get a better than 50% chance to damage them.

Optimising is about taking stuff that can handle itself against anything and is capable of doing something worthwhile each turn (even if it's only sitting on a point in a Land Raider so's it counts as scoring), not taking whatever you'd normally take and stuffing a few "utility" upgrades in there too.

[quote]I see how Doin' It Wrong is bad but you did not need to explain that, seeing as it is dangerously close to a tautology. I do not see that people actually Do It Wrong though. Of course the codex comes into this: The sheer variety of possible builds gives Orks as a faction an edge.[/quote]

The fact that they all revolve around me not having the tools to deal with their low-grade-ass lots-of-dice expendability crap blunts that edge; because if I do, they're stuck.

[quote]The first part I agree with, the second, not so much. You need counters to threats, otherwise you cannot tackle everything. You need to include stuff to deal with monsters, vehicles, infantry of all calibres, fast stuff, resilient stuff etc.[/quote]

Agreed. Which is why optimised lists work.

[quote]Sometimes, some tools will be wasted, as flamers don't help much against a Termi-heavy opponent. For example.[/quote]

If anything in your army doesn't scream "OMG PRIORITY TARGET!" to every opponent you play, you need to dump it. That's how you get to an optimised list. That's why you don't take MM Land Speeders; you take MM/ HF Land Speeders. It's why you don't take Land Raiders, you take Land Raiders with Multimeltas and Extra Armour alongside a shitload of Bikers with Meltaguns and twin-linked Relentless Bolters. It's why you don't just take Fireknife Suits, you take Pathfinders to remove the cover saves of any units that they're going to shoot at.

Optimised means streamlined, containing no useless crap that some people will be able to ignore. Give me any Ork Codex army list and I'll show you a 5th Edition army list that will be able to ignore at least half of the shit it brings to the table.

[quote]To be more concrete, autocannon, assault cannon and scatter lasers will probably mince Speed Freaks/Trukk heavy Orks - if they can get enough shots off that is. I'm not really sure how they'd impress a horde or Kan Wall of Death. Of course one can argue that a horde player hopes not to meet a flamer-heavy opponent but I've yet to see a list with enough templates to worry - not if you'd like to have some tools for other jobs, too.[/quote]

Why does every unit have to be geared towards one specific task?

[quote]By taking the best you can get in spades[/quote]

I.E taking as much stuff as possible and hoping your opponent can't deal with it? What constitutes "the best you can get" in the Ork Codex? What units do they have that can deal with infantry AND vehicles, apart from Lootas and Kustom MegaBlasta Kans, both of which suck arse-hair?

[quote]- basic Orks, with a little support from elsewhere (Deffkoptas, Nobs, Kans).[/quote]

I see.

I'd contend that if this represents "the best you can get" you're already in a whole world of shit.

[quote]Which I insist is a far too general statement and as such applies to each and every list. Not being able to deal with skimmers, MEQ, AV12, AV14, the opponent's mobility, not being able to handle FNP + T5, or T5 + 3+/5++ Sv, or re-rollable saves, you name it.[/quote]

Which represents a weakness in your opponent's list that anyone can take advantage of. What happens, though, when you get a Mechdar Serpent-spammer facing off against a Vulkan Bikers player? Two lists built around the ethos of every unit being a threat in some way poking at each other for weaknesses and having to be played well. What happens when you get a Superfriends player facing off against a Wagon-spam KFF list? Two shitty lists mongling towards each other in a great cataclysm of nonsense with each player waiting for the other's crap to fail.

[quote]
Platitudes?... Well lah-di-dah, Mr. "I have failed to comprehend anything that's been going on thus far but I demand in a Teutonically arrogant way that you answer my non-points anyway!"

That was actually pretty funny, Frank. :-) [/quote]

I aim to please


PS: Any and all threads which can be boiled down to one set of people saying "Your Codex sucks" and another set saying "No it doesn't" don't evolve into pissing matches; they're basically pissing matches from the get-go. If you're bored of participating in said pissing match then go away and leave the rest of us to it, otherwise stop wailing and gnashing and get back to contributing.


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[quote=thehod]actually the KFF save on a vehicle is +4[/quote]

Ohnoes, so it's a 50-50 thing I have to deal with? Well that... actually no, it doesn't really change anything does it, because my Raiders are still worth 3 of your Wagons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/860747.page GMT
Though I find it amazing you can kill 90 orks a turn with kroot. They must be wounding on 2s with 70 attacks that hit on 3s with rerolls. Tell me when they have your dream kroot codex out in stores.

I hate to burst your bubble but there is no list in 40k that can handle themselves against anything. Fatecrusher beats vulkan bikers and mechdar dies to loota spam but Mech IG beats fatecrusher and loota spam loses to raider spam. Tiers in 40k are non existent, only rock-paper-scissors-vortex grenade.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/861695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/861695.page GMT
You only need to get another 34 kills from Kroot hounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/861971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/861971.page GMT
No it isn't. It looks like one, but it's really not.

[quote]I disagree with this being a pissing match or a contest to see how big your e-peen is[/quote]

"My Codex is awesome" versus "no it sucks" = "I can piss 10ft up the wall" versus "pissing up the wall is stupid". There's no other way to frame the debate.

[quote]unless you like to do that kind of thing, I see it as a passionate debate between people of different views . Me? I just enjoy the conversation between you and others and how serious we all take a game of toy soldiers.[/quote]

It's a bit odd to me that people try and call shenanigans when folk get passionate about debates over their hobbies. On a hobby wargaming messageboard. What, are we all supposed to come here and be all blahze about the hobby? Sure there are more important things to talk about, but I talk about those things elsewhere. Here, I talk about 40K

[quote]Though I find it amazing you can kill 90 orks a turn with kroot. They must be wounding on 2s with 70 attacks that hit on 3s with rerolls. Tell me when they have your dream kroot codex out in stores.[/quote]

Yeah, that was an exaggeration for dramatic effect. It's not all Kroot; the Smart Missiles and Crisis Suits and Submunitions and Markerlights and Devilfish also have some part to play in the killing stakes.

[quote]I hate to burst your bubble but there is no list in 40k that can handle themselves against anything. Fatecrusher beats vulkan bikers[/quote]

How, exactly?

[quote]and mechdar dies to loota spam[/quote]

Again, how?

[quote]but Mech IG beats fatecrusher and loota spam loses to raider spam. Tiers in 40k are non existent, only rock-paper-scissors-vortex grenade.[/quote]

I'd say that the tier thing is far more accurate than rock-paper-scissors, although they're both garbage. Building your list properly allows you to take on anyone; learning to play it properly allows you to beat anyone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/862075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/862075.page GMT
And no doubt, orks dominate the metagame. The greatest strength of them is their versatility in games (you need to think alot throughtout the game). Not all players can handle that, which is why many players choose to settle with other races.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/862172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/862172.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/863240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/863240.page GMT


Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/863347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/863347.page GMT
Orkz die if you just run them directly at your opponent. You have to get them from point A to their opponents face before their shot down. Like a race if you will.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864326.page GMT
lol that's why people like you and that Frank arent cut out for playing orks. Too tough for you guys ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864331.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864482.page GMT
Krak Grenades can penetrate them and regular SM/ Ork CC attacks will Glance them. They're not HARD to kill either.

[quote]If you take a lot of lascannons or multi-meltas then you can deal with the battlewagons but you can't deal with the boyz inside. If you take a lot of anti-infantry then your position is reversed. If you try to balance it out then you don't have enough of either to deal with either.[/quote]

In the case of most armies, that's true. In the case of Orks, where anti-infantry weapons will kill their vehicles too, it's not.

[quote]You can argue theory hammer till you're blue in the face but I'm going by personal experience. [/quote]

So's most everybody else in the thread, mate. The old "personal experience" bit doesn't count for much, and if you haven't had the "personal experience" of having and AV10 rear vehicle pounded into uselessness by some random BP/CCW Scout squad or scunnered by Deep-Striking or fast-moving anti infantry weapons then your opponents are Doin' It Wrong.


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[quote=artyboy]It's not that you have to think a lot when you're playing a "good" ork army. It's that your opponent has to think alot.[/quote]

This is what I've been saying all along, and it's what makes the Orks a sucky Codex. Anything that requires more of your opponent than it does of you is bad. It's why Raider-spam doesn't work against hard lists, and it's why Orks don't either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864500.page GMT
And no doubt, orks dominate the metagame. The greatest strength of them is their versatility in games (you need to think alot throughtout the game). Not all players can handle that, which is why many players choose to settle with other races.[/quote]

Having played Orks a lot in 5th, as I previously said, and also played MechDar, Chaos, and SM...Orks are by FAR the least complicated to play. Deployment is literally the hardest part of an Ork player's decisions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/864522.page GMT
Ard Boyz: 2-0-1
RTT: 3-0
Necro: 2-3 (one loss was against Orks)

In two games at the Necro, I rolled so badly to assault Ghaz, it drastically changed the game. Ghaz with Nobz, I rolled snake eyes and Ghaz was 2 inches away. Suck. Another game, Ghaz was alone and to assault a stationary Land Raider about 2 inches away again. I rolled triple 1's. He got shot to death by the entire army the following turn.

All in all, having played in 3 different tourney enviornments in 3 different cities within 2 states, I definitely won't call them bottom tier. I had two good showings and one bad. The bad showing had some very difficult missions and a few unlucky rolls that I just could not overcome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869218.page GMT
Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869329.page GMT
Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.[/quote]

Using that logic it also shows us that Tyranids, Daemons and Witch Hunters are competetive enough not just to hang with, but indeed to perform better than most of those big boys. Witch Hunters maybe, but the other two?....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869375.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869527.page GMT 40k community to rise to Frank Fugger's Definition of Competitive! There is no refuting his theory! Anyone who disagrees is a nerd-raging knuckledragger!

In other news, Karl Popper is spinning in his grave. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869566.page GMT FF there's no actual competition anywhere in 40K, so orks can never be proven to be competitive.

Of course, nothing else can be proven to be competitive either.

Eureka! Everything is 3rd tier in 40K! Everything is 1st tier in 40K! *boom* my poor little head just exploded due to the quandary...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869574.page GMT
Geez you'd think people would be beating their heads on desks by now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869589.page GMT
Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.[/quote]

Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869594.page GMT
Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.[/quote]

Using that logic it also shows us that Tyranids, Daemons and Witch Hunters are competetive enough not just to hang with, but indeed to perform better than most of those big boys. Witch Hunters maybe, but the other two?....[/quote]

All tyranids and daemons need is a skilled player to use them correctly so yeah. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869619.page GMT
Chaos Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Daemons
Necrons
Orks
Space Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Space Marines
Daemons

This adds further fuel to the argument that Orks are at least competitive enough to hang with the big boys.[/quote]

Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.[/quote]


The Necro is hard to judge because of their Handicap system that informed first turn match ups, and their missions that where mostly Kill Point and anti-HQ heavy. They did have an aggravated mission system, so in order to place highly you had to be able to challenge your opponent whilst accomplishing several missions.

The competition was reasonably tough with Veterans like Mark Parker attending. So even though there was a fair share of baby seals to club, there was also a fair share of extremely talented gamers.

Here are the standings for the top ten if Battle Points where the only factor:

Sisters of Battle
Tyrannids
Necrons
Daemons
Chaos Marines
Space Marines
Orks
Daemons
Space Marines
Orks

You can take into account match ups, how favorible the missions played in the match ups, etc. But there is no denying that the same story to come out of this event matches closely with the rest of the country, namely Deamons, Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, and Orks are producing the more competitive builds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869620.page GMT
By looking at these results and coming to that conclusion, you must also logically conclude that Tyranids and Necrons are top competitors. After all, their representation in the top 10 here equals that of CSM, the competitive nature of which you believe to be substantiated by this list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869629.page GMT Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.[/quote]

Dude, just shut up. If you have never played a competitive Nid list in 5th edition you are playing the wrong people.

Obviously you, Frank, and Stelek play in this little bubble of a Universe where Sun revolves strictly around you guys. For the rest of us apparently incapable players, National Tournament Results as well as personal experience will help determine our meta game. Not some flame tactic blog site maintained and created by a guy who was permanently banned from this forum for being a gigantic douche bag.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869644.page GMT
No u!

I'm sorry that it gets you all butthurt, but if you honestly think Tyranids are competitive in a 5th edition mech environment then you're playing a different game than everyone else.

Also, what does Stelek have to do with this? Do you throw unprovoked insults at strangers often?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869650.page GMT Were those top ten by battlepoints or by fluffy hobby competition overall points? The former is somewhat relevant, though one would also have to argue that Necrons and Tyranids are competitive (they're not), and the latter makes this laughable as far as support is concerned.[/quote]

Dude, just shut up. If you have never played a competitive Nid list in 5th edition you are playing the wrong people.

Obviously you, Frank, and Stelek play in this little bubble of a Universe where Sun revolves strictly around you guys. For the rest of us apparently incapable players, National Tournament Results as well as personal experience will help determine our meta game. Not some flame tactic blog site maintained and created by a guy who was permanently banned from this forum for being a gigantic douche bag.[/quote]


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's priceless.

Read Danny's Blog, maybe you'll learn how to play the game well.

No Eldar in the Top Ten, and you think it's a reasonable basis for results? Get real.

You can't claim that Orks doing well in the last UK GT shows they're strong, and that them doing well in Necromonicon proves they're strong, when the army that won the former apparently had no representatives at the latter!

Lack of IG lists also indicates a weak player base.

To put it simply - Those Ork lists may well have been among the best there, or the best players there, but they couldn't even beat Necrons, so they're pathetic.

Orks = Bottom of Competitive. Necrons = Bottom of the Barrel.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869658.page GMT
By looking at these results and coming to that conclusion, you must also logically conclude that Tyranids and Necrons are top competitors. After all, their representation in the top 10 here equals that of CSM, the competitive nature of which you believe to be substantiated by this list.[/quote]

Not necessarily. The high placing of a single player is indicative of that player and his match ups. The several placings of multiple players playing out of the same codex is indicative of that codexes power.

If you remember, my previous post compared the result of the Necro with the rest of the results nation wide, which is why I included Chaos Space Marine in my list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869692.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869692.page GMT
I know that Marines pretty much dominated the top spots - at least top 3-5. Other top armies going into last round were Eldar and Chaos.

As far as I know there - the few Necron and bug players did rather poorly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869711.page GMT
By looking at these results and coming to that conclusion, you must also logically conclude that Tyranids and Necrons are top competitors. After all, their representation in the top 10 here equals that of CSM, the competitive nature of which you believe to be substantiated by this list.[/quote]

Not necessarily. The high placing of a single player is indicative of that player and his match ups. The several placings of multiple players playing out of the same codex is indicative of that codexes power.

If you remember, my previous post compared the result of the Necro with the rest of the results nation wide, which is why I included Chaos Space Marine in my list.[/quote]

Frank Fugger has pointed out that Necrons have performed well in UK GTs. One could apply your same logic to them as you currently do to CSM, given their nationwide results and the single instance of a player placing in the top 10 of the Necronomicon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869725.page GMT
By looking at these results and coming to that conclusion, you must also logically conclude that Tyranids and Necrons are top competitors. After all, their representation in the top 10 here equals that of CSM, the competitive nature of which you believe to be substantiated by this list.[/quote]

Not necessarily. The high placing of a single player is indicative of that player and his match ups. The several placings of multiple players playing out of the same codex is indicative of that codexes power.

If you remember, my previous post compared the result of the Necro with the rest of the results nation wide, which is why I included Chaos Space Marine in my list.[/quote]

Frank Fugger has pointed out that Necrons have performed well in UK GTs. One could apply your same logic to them as you currently do to CSM, given their nationwide results and the single instance of a player placing in the top 10 of the Necronomicon.[/quote]

There is also less data coming out of the UK results then come out of the US simply due to the amount of events run each year per country. It is fair to say though that US results are by far the best competitive borrometer because we have a more competitive culture, and the results are spread out among a great many region playstyles. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869754.page GMT
No u!

I'm sorry that it gets you all butthurt, but if you honestly think Tyranids are competitive in a 5th edition mech environment then you're playing a different game than everyone else.

Also, what does Stelek have to do with this? Do you throw unprovoked insults at strangers often?[/quote]

Oh don't worry, my butt is fine. I was simply trying to save you from making even more than an ass out of yourself with your comments. While not as dominant as they once were at the end of 4th, Bugs can still hold there own against even [b]your[/b] feared mech lists.

Again, if you can't see this... the problem sounds more like you...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869789.page GMT UK results then come out of the US simply due to the amount of events run each year per country. It is fair to say though that US results are by far the best competitive borrometer because we have a more competitive culture, and the results are spread out among a great many region playstyles.[/quote]

Well, regarding which culture is more competitive, that's simply a matter of opinion. Even if you could definitively say one culture is more competitive on average than another, this means little when all you need to fill out an event is 40-100 potentially cut-throat individuals.

As far as your second point is concerned, from my experience every club is its own little microcosm and unless there are multiple play groups in the same area they are often wildly different from one another, whether they're 5 miles apart or 500. The internet also does a lot to mitigate the effects of physical proximity between groups. While I haven't played in the UK, I doubt the variety of styles is any different when bringing together clubs at a national event.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869797.page GMT
No Eldar in the Top Ten, and you think it's a reasonable basis for results? Get real.

[/quote]

How do you know if there were even any Eldar players there?


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=Elessar][
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's priceless.

Read Danny's Blog, maybe you'll learn how to play the game well.

Orks = Bottom of Competitive. Necrons = Bottom of the Barrel.[/quote]

If it reflects his opinion on this and the previous threads, I will pass.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869799.page GMT
No Eldar in the Top Ten, and you think it's a reasonable basis for results? Get real.

[/quote]

How do you know if there were even any Eldar players there?[/quote]

Because the event results show 4 Eldar players: http://www.thenecro.com/coverage.htm

Also interesting is that there were 12 Ork players there, the majority of which placed in the bottom half of the standings by battle points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869804.page GMT
Because the event rules show 4 Eldar players: http://www.thenecro.com/coverage.htm[/quote]

Wow a whole 4, out of how many? And I guess since they are playing Eldar they have to be skilled players?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869813.page GMT
For reference, there were 5 Daemon players (7.4%) and 6 Chaos Space Marine players (8.8%). And only 3 Tyranid and Necron players (4.4%).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869830.page GMT
STOP the flaming, personal attacks, insults, etc.

This thread is now on a short leash...

Well, shorter than before this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869848.page GMT
As for IG, I think alot of people who took IG either a) didnt have their ideal army yet, b) havent found the competitive build or c) got destroyed by the mission or a bad matchup.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869886.page GMT 40k compared to say, Magic: the Gathering, is that there is a lot more player skill and randomness involved.

There can be quite a skill gap in Warhammer40k that a lot of people don't want to admit. Really good players can make excellent plays that can allow a "worse" list to win. Heck, I've been playing 40k for 6 years and I have players in my group that are better players than me and have played more games. One of the main reasons I continue to play is to continue improving upon my game.

I guess what I am saying is that unlike, say, Magic: the gathering, you can't look at the winning lists of a tournament and say "those are the top lists". In 40k, you can almost always say "those are some of the best players who entered the tournament".

There are also other factors that can easily change the results of a game such as mission objectives, dice rolls, etc. Then you also have bad matchups or mirror matches that can change the end results. Heck sometimes you even have players who have been playing for years, but havent played a specific army that their gaming group doesn't own. Heck, I've never played a Dark Eldar army yet. Sure, I've read the codex but that doesn't match the experience of actually playing against them. Nobody owns them around here.

Also, I think when some look at an army such as Tyranids and say that they aren't competitive, I think the main thing they are trying to say is that if you take 2 equally skilled players and have them play game after game, the Tyranid player will come out losing more often than winning. We have observed this in our group and we are confident that our Tyranids lists are as good as they come. Yeah, the Tyranids win games and force us to play smart but we definitely take them down more than they take us down. In a tournament, a good Tyranid player with a good list can win some games against top-tier lists with some lucky dice rolls, favorable objectives/matchups or mistakes on their opponents' part.

Really all I'm saying is that there are a lot more factors that go into performing well in a tournament besides the exact list being played. I also think some people don't realize how mistakes can be made on a game-by-game basis even be really good players who have been playing for many years. I think any very skilled player can take almost any codex and have the capability of performing well and I think that is what we see often in these tournament results.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/869887.page GMT
I wish that were true; a lot of other people in my group are beginning to wake up and smell the new Edition, which means it's getting less and less worthwhile taking my Grey Knights out of their drawer. That makes me go sad-face, because I've grown accustomed to successfully running an outmoded army with a no-brain strategy that will always work as long as my opponent can't deal with the models I put on the table.

[quote=Elessar]Orks = Bottom of Competitive. Necrons = Bottom of the Barrel.[/quote]

A fine summation ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870016.page GMT
You are of course right, a good player will beat a poor player most of the time, even with an inferior list.

What Frank, Danny, Stelek, myself, and others are saying is that, in an environment where no player stands out above the others, Orks, Necrons, Daemons and Nids can't really compete.

That said, Stelek posted a new Daemon list that just might.

@TheHod, I saw in Yermum's thread that a MechDar player was top table heading into 5 - but he still came outside the top ten, which proves (to me) the Necron, Daemon and Ork players had an easier time than he. Especially reading the weak-ass lists Yermum had in some of those games. Sounds like he played fairly well, but some of those guys he faced were no contest. In a series of games between 2 good players with balanced lists, there are few/no massacres.

Eldar players don't have to be skilled, and I would in fact say, given their results, that none of them was exceptionally skilled. Apparently one was good, I accept that, since I wasn't there. Still eager to see his list though.

@Frank: Thanks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870183.page GMT
No u!

I'm sorry that it gets you all butthurt, but if you honestly think Tyranids are competitive in a 5th edition mech environment then you're playing a different game than everyone else.

Also, what does Stelek have to do with this? Do you throw unprovoked insults at strangers often?[/quote]

You know you must be making a good point when you piss someone off on this board.


But Yermom did have a good point. The metagame around the area for the Necro is assault oriented and 5th edition does favor assault armies with cover, run, and a far more brutal assault phase. People will play what they like and some can do very exceptional with what they have.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870198.page GMT
QFT. All this talk of "tier this" and "competitive that" is just mental masturbation. The fact of the matter is a skilled player with experience with his army can still win in the face of rank and file players with their "uber flavor of the month" army list.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870278.page GMT
QFT. All this talk of "tier this" and "competitive that" is just mental masturbation. The fact of the matter is a skilled player with experience with his army can still win in the face of rank and file players with their "uber flavor of the month" army list.

[/quote]

Of course that was already stated, in the first of these threads. We don't disagree - but that's not the point. The point isn't what you can do to an inferior player, because it is in fact LOSING in such a situation that proves a point.

The fact, as we see it, is that Orks aren't able to stand against most evenly skilled players. I don't know how anyone can fail to understand that that is what we keep saying.

(Apart from silly 'flavour of the month' nonsense you're so fond of. MechDar, MechVets, AirCav, Best of Tau/Marines, Plague/Blit spam...hardly fotm when they're not going away - being as genuinely good list, unlike Orks, means they're here to stay.)

@thehod: Every post I make must be a good point, according to your logic! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870305.page GMT Of course that was already stated, in the first of these threads. We don't disagree - but that's not the point. The point isn't what you can do to an inferior player, because it is in fact LOSING in such a situation that proves a point.

The fact, as we see it, is that Orks aren't able to stand against most evenly skilled players. I don't know how anyone can fail to understand that that is what we keep saying.

[/quote]

I totally understood what you were saying.

Again, I totally disagree.

While certain match ups will always favor a certain side, Orks can still be competitive when facing similar skilled opponents using your "here to stay" lists. (Tyranids as well)

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870384.page GMT
It does not matter if you think it's because the opposition was weak or that people have not adapted to 5th ed.

In the end what matters is if with his list a guy can win with it reliably then it's competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870400.page GMT
@thehod: Every post I make must be a good point, according to your logic! [/quote]

Well you do have valid points, I never said anyone was trully wrong. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870405.page GMT Of course that was already stated, in the first of these threads. We don't disagree - but that's not the point. The point isn't what you can do to an inferior player, because it is in fact LOSING in such a situation that proves a point.

The fact, as we see it, is that Orks aren't able to stand against most evenly skilled players. I don't know how anyone can fail to understand that that is what we keep saying.

[/quote]

I totally understood what you were saying.

Again, I totally disagree.

While certain match ups will always favor a certain side, Orks can still be competitive when facing similar skilled opponents using your "here to stay" lists. (Tyranids as well)

[/quote]

The distinction is this:

If using MechDar, there are certain lists (AirCav, for example) that you REALLY don't want to face - it stretches the list to almost breaking point to take it on at it's own level and to get victory is a serious test of the player and the army.

With Necrons, there are lists you CAN'T reliably beat - this is why they aren't competitive. Orks have the same issue.

That, is where we disagree. You don't want to believe that any army is hamstrung to that degree.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870532.page GMT
The question is not how good a player is, or if lucky match-ups occured, etc. The questions that should be asked is simply this:

1) Do Orks have the tools do deal with everything they need to in a competitive environment; and

2) If yes, do they have these tools in the abundance that other armies do?

Ork players: Try not to treat this as an attack on you as a person or a competitor. Try to focus on the tools you have to perform with. Could they be better?

Ork opposers: Similarly, stop attacking player bases at nonsense 'tournaments'. Take a look at what the codex has to offer.

I think we will have a far more informed discussion if these points are kept in mind. If not, it will at least be a little more civilized.

P.S. Mods: I would hate for this thread to be shut down just because an individual is angry and decides to bomb it. Do you have other options than that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870549.page GMT
I hope that in the finals, there are swathes of ork players, all hungry to get an offical and IN PRINT ruling on deffrollas. I for one think that they should work on vehicles, and I think a lot of the former ork players that are tired of getting walled off and templated in their local meta will come back into the fold hardcore.

So ork players keep winning next month please! I need to see that deffrolla ruling in print![/quote]

This is the one thing keeping me from going back to orks competitively. It needs clarification because it is def a factor keeping the orks from tier 1 right now. And hey GW will sell more "deff rolla bits packs" as well.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870707.page GMT
That's what we started out by doing, but are now constantly needing to rebut the declaration that because Orks beat this that and the other list at PoorListCon 09 that this isn't evidence that contradicts our previous (still unanswered) points.

I have no desire to see this thread locked either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870853.page GMT
That's what we started out by doing, but are now constantly needing to rebut the declaration that because Orks beat this that and the other list at PoorListCon 09 that this isn't evidence that contradicts our previous (still unanswered) points.

I have no desire to see this thread locked either.[/quote]

I believe your previous points are going unanswered because they lack... a point.

You give us speculation and opinion as to why they suck.

We give you National tournaments results and our own speculation and opinion as to why they don't suck. Who's winning that debate?

You ask for evidence and then provide none in return.

I am sorry you take offense, and think I am mad or upset. I am not. Just arguing the other side. If you call me a sub par or deficient player or insinuate it in some way, expect a retort.

My opinion is just as valid as your opinion, and at least mine has some backing.

Peace out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/870975.page GMT
Facts (again):


Orks can't reliably kill AV14
Orks can't reliably kill Seer Councils
Orks can't get into CC with, and therefore beat, MechDar, or, even worse, DE.
Orks can't cope with Manticores and Multiple Rocket Pods.
Lootas/Burnas require Dedicated Transports in a 5th Edition environment.
The Ork Codex suffers to much from FoC Saturation - ie, too many choices worth taking compete for the same options, the best example being Elites - taking Nob Bikers and Lootas means taking Nobs as Troops. Is this bad? Only if you want Kommandos, Burnas, Tankbustas...or a KFF.
The KFF is too good, because it forces it's inclusion in a sensible Mech Ork list. Thinks that are taken because they're too good to ignore, rather than just being great on their own strength are bad, as they restrict player choice, and strategy.

On the last point, compare to Vulkan. Is he picked for his support prowess? Yes, of course. But he also runs around with 4 S6 Power Weapon attacks, and a re-roll in both sets he has to make. Not incredible, but more than enough to hold his own.

Obviously, the above points also apply primarily to [i]balanced[/i] Ork lists - one trick ponies have no place in a serious discussion about the strength of the Codex.

I'm prepared to discuss ANY of the above points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871043.page GMT
Facts (again):


Orks can't reliably kill AV14
Orks can't reliably kill Seer Councils
Orks can't get into CC with, and therefore beat, MechDar, or, even worse, DE.
Orks can't cope with Manticores and Multiple Rocket Pods.[/quote]

Orks do have a tough time with 14 all around, but that is limited to LRs and Monos. This is the only real weakness in the dex. Even then, Orks can kill them with PKs.

Orks can kill Seer Councils... easier than most armies can. The best way to kill a Council is massed firepower, and Lootas and Shoota boys have that is spades. I have seen plenty of Fortnued councils go down to concentrated Ork firepower.

Orks can kill MechDar - again Loota fire kills AV 12...dead. Also, Deffkoptas work wonders at taking out all medium to light vehicles (Rokkits+Saw).

Again, Koptas kill Maticores dead, as do Lootas (if the have LOS) and Snikrot Kommandos.

Note that nothing that I mentioned is tailored. Most good balanced Ork lists will have Lootas, tons of PKs, and a few Koptas in them. Heck, even Snikrot is in tons of lists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871106.page GMT
DeffKoptas can be outmanoeuvred, easily. Dark Eldar have more difficulty against Lootas, in theory. That's why they deploy in the corner of the board, where Night Shields make you too far away.

Manticores hide behind Chimeras against Lootas.
45 Shots, 15 Hits, 2 Glance, 3 Pen (being kind) - ignore a Glance (woop) and one of the pens (again, kind), you've got a 1/3 chance to destroy me with 2 Rolls.

Unless I model my Manticore properly, with no turret, in which case I can see and shoot you from behind a Chimera, you can't draw LOS [i]to[/i] a gun, so cannot return fire. Also, Manticores, obviously, kill Lootas easier than they get killed by them.

Seer Councils, in theory, can be torrented by Ork Shooting, I concede. That's not something the Eldar player should allow, however. Smacks of poor decision-making to let them be shot more than once - and before the Prisms open up on the Lootas - Shootas CAN do it alone, but I wouldn't put money on their chances.

Orks have virtually no chance to Pen a mobile LR. They should never encounter a Mono, so it's no issue.

I contend that FoC Saturation is a weakness in the Dex, and in Phil Kelly's writing in general.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871140.page GMT av 13 or higher. This coming from multiple ork players. Again it may be a fluke or maybe quality players using the ork codex.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871349.page GMT
I just told you the odds above - they're slim - even at 45 shots they've got under a probability of 1 @ destroying an AV12 - it actually takes 2 units to make it up to it, 3 if they fire 15 times each. At the same time, I have 2/3 Fire Prisms wounding them on 3+ and killing what they hit. I have a 60" range, and deploy in the corner.

In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - [IMG]http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/TheKingElessar/100_0506.jpg[/IMG] - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms. That makes the odds no better than those of the Manticore being shot.

It could well be instead that the quality of the Ork players you saw was greater than the Eldar players.

WOSH = / = Supreme Eldar Tactics.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871925.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871938.page GMT
Also, for the (hopefully) last time, I play often, and have played over 100 times with Orks in 5th. If your comment is levelled at Frank, Danny, and [i]not[/i] me, then please make this clear before posting.

Note: I only assume it's directed at me/us, because of my vague memory of your previous...uh...'contribution'...to the thread. For all we know, you're addressing the whole of Dakka, and indeed the Universe, as noob.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871942.page GMT
Alright, then I suppose my comment "noob" was meant for you ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871952.page GMT
I say in February...but I'd entered them into a league, so I had to wait until it was over before I could drop that huge Green stone, and play a competitive list.

Sadly, months of sucking meant my early MechDar lists paled in comparison to the shining jewel I play now...but, I'm totally over my addiction to cOrkaine, and in full-on rehab.

Now, my 10,000 points only come out for Apoc...although, if it helps, I'll do BatReps to display how crap Orks are. In September. This thread can easily sustain itself until then.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871969.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/871969.page GMT
without wanting to blow my own trumpet, i think this qualifies me as knowing what im talking about when it comes to all things 40k.

the fact of the matter is, that orks just dont compete against good players with good lists. i can play any one of several regular opponents with any one of my armies and be virtually guaranteed to come out on top, but the army i have most experience playing just cant deal with high level competion. ive seen lots of new players get beaten by orks as they dont know how to deal with the number of models, and i have seen veteran players trounced by them because they insisted on bringing a 4th ed anti meq list full of plasma and get swamped.
i think that in time, we will see orks start to slide off the scale as people are forced to adapt.

remember guys, im no ork hater, but i think too many greenskins on here believe that loota spam and deffrollas are the answer to everything.

@ orkish: thanks for the most pointless piece of trolling in an already shaky thread. your teachers must be proud to have produced an individual capable of such well thought out arguments as yourself...


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872106.page GMT
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872113.page GMT In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - [IMG]http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/TheKingElessar/100_0506.jpg[/IMG] - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.[/quote]

I would love to see that deployment when using my Ghaz Battlewagon spam. Even running away 24" in turn 2 would not save you. And that is even without Deff Rolla's.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872297.page GMT
I just told you the odds above - they're slim - even at 45 shots they've got under a probability of 1 @ destroying an AV12 - it actually takes 2 units to make it up to it, 3 if they fire 15 times each. At the same time, I have 2/3 Fire Prisms wounding them on 3+ and killing what they hit. I have a 60" range, and deploy in the corner.

In addition, I deploy similar to this (apologies for poor pic quality, best I can find at short notice) - [IMG]http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu72/TheKingElessar/100_0506.jpg[/IMG] - cramming 9 Grav Tanks (@1750) into 2 square foot of board isn't easy - but they are all at different heights, and thus confer cover saves upon the Prisms. That makes the odds no better than those of the Manticore being shot.

It could well be instead that the quality of the Ork players you saw was greater than the Eldar players.

WOSH = / = Supreme Eldar Tactics.
Basic Eldar 101, yes.[/quote]

Wow...that deployment is pathetic. It just screams to be bait for so many things in 40k, even things in the Ork dex.

Say goodbye to at least 3 WS on the first turn to Koptas asaulting rear armor, if the Ork player goes first/siezes. Add another 2 more WS at least being stunned or imobilzed (even if not destroyed outright) to Loota fire. So congratulations, you will be able to use less than 1/2 of your tanks on your first turn... awesome!

As an Eldar player myself I have to say that that is the worst deployment for Mechdar that I have ever seen...you are far better off starting those skimmers in reserve. That looks more like a Chimera spam deployment than a good Mechdar deployment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872302.page GMT
1) Do Orks have the tools do deal with everything they need to in a competitive environment; and

2) If yes, do they have these tools in the abundance that other armies do?

[....]

Ork opposers: Similarly, stop attacking player bases at nonsense 'tournaments'. Take a look at what the codex has to offer.[/quote]

A lot of people seem to think that my opinion that Orks win stuff because their opponents suck came from seeing them win stuff and assuming that their opponents must suck purely because I don't like the Codex. The opposite is the case; I've been rummaging around the Codex for a while now, and have done moreso since I decided to take them to the UK GT. I built at least 12 army lists out of the Codex for my grand experiment, and ended up so frustrated by the sheer god-awful suckiness of every last list I threw together I ended up abandoning the idea in favour of taking my Smurfs instead. Every unit in the Ork Codex has clear and obvious applications against [x] [y] and [z], yet would be absolutely helpless if [a] [b] and/ or [c] showed up on the table; or alternatively relies on the dice rolling right to be awesome. The Daemons Codex has much the same problem. So does the Tyranids one, and the Daemonhunters one, and the Necrons one. The Eldar Codex does not. Neither does the Smurf Codex, the Guard Codex, the Tau Codex or the Witch Hunters Codex. Those Codexes contain a lot of flavour units and random fun units, but they also contain units that you can put on the table and trust to get things done. None of the other Codexes have that; they're either made up entirely of flavour/ fun units (Orks, Daemons), or their army is structured in such a way that it simply cannot provide counters to the problems a hard 5th Edition list will throw at it (Necrons, Daemonhunters, Tyranids).

That's why these Codexes aren't competetive in any meaningful way, and why they will only do well so long as their opponents continue to bring poor, unoptimised lists to tournaments. According to the Ork Codex the answer to question one is a resounding "no", and that makes question two irrelevant.


[quote=pringles978]i really love my ork army. ive been playing with them in various incarnations since rogue trader and i have played a fair few games with them over the years of my green addiction. i have also collected, painted and gamed with just about every army in the system at one time or another over the past 22 years and have competed in more tourneys than i care to remember both as a customer and a staff member.

without wanting to blow my own trumpet, i think this qualifies me as knowing what im talking about when it comes to all things 40k.

the fact of the matter is, that orks just dont compete against good players with good lists. i can play any one of several regular opponents with any one of my armies and be virtually guaranteed to come out on top, but the army i have most experience playing just cant deal with high level competion. ive seen lots of new players get beaten by orks as they dont know how to deal with the number of models, and i have seen veteran players trounced by them because they insisted on bringing a 4th ed anti meq list full of plasma and get swamped.
i think that in time, we will see orks start to slide off the scale as people are forced to adapt.

remember guys, im no ork hater, but i think too many greenskins on here believe that loota spam and deffrollas are the answer to everything.

@ orkish: thanks for the most pointless piece of trolling in an already shaky thread. your teachers must be proud to have produced an individual capable of such well thought out arguments as yourself...


[/quote]

You, sir, are The Man.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=methoderik]I would love to see that deployment when using my Ghaz Battlewagon spam. Even running away 24" in turn 2 would not save you. And that is even without Deff Rolla's.[/quote]

At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed. Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?!

[quote=Alerian]Say goodbye to at least 3 WS on the first turn to Koptas asaulting rear armor, if the Ork player goes first/siezes.[/quote]

Myself, I'd credit The King with a bit more nous than to deploy no blockers or stoppers if there's a chance some Jetbiking nutter is going to get in and mangle his rear AV. The fact he's stacked his flank and hasn't taken the blow-ass route of deploying all-reserve suggests he knows what he's doing.

[quote]Add another 2 more WS at least being stunned or imobilzed (even if not destroyed outright) to Loota fire.[/quote]

Roll some 5-6es, roll some more 5-6es, roll some MORE 5-6es, roll SOME MORE 5-6es, and all is good. And I've STILL got Skimmers to kill you with

[quote]As an Eldar player myself I have to say that that is the worst deployment for Mechdar that I have ever seen[/quote]

But, but, but, it's a solid block deployment that maximises the resilience of each vehicle against shooting, and...

[quote]...you are far better off starting those skimmers in reserve.[/quote]

Oh right, you're one of THOSE people. Always amuses me how people equate all-reserve with insta-pwn, yet when they see a stacked flank they're all like, "OMG U SUCK". Maybe I do, but at least my oppo isn't going to be able to pick my army off one unit at a time when it comes in piecemeal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872536.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872566.page GMT
Frank Fugger -> England
Elesar -> England
Pringles978 -> England

Coincidence? Let the reader decide. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872580.page GMT
@Olympia: My question to you is: Why?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872588.page GMT
@Olympia: My question to you is: Why?[/quote]
Why is there some Eldar player posting pictures of his silly deployment? Hell if I know...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872613.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872622.page GMT
Frank can say Orks lose to an optimized list and thats all I have to say

Other people will go "no they kill stuff"

I mean this all assuming were going back to 4th edition where most of the missions were VP based but in 5th its more about Objective based. You dont need to kill much at all to win a game of objectives. Mech Eldar are a great testament to that along with Orks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872630.page GMT
Lootas are a good unit for the points, they are not overpowered. They can do their job well. That being said, any opponent with 2 brain cells to rub together can handle them in any numbers.

Regular nobs suck. They cost a large number of points. They are really only good in CC, thus requiring transport. They have sketchy armor, you pay out the nose for 4+/5+ with feel no pain. The cost of them means that the enemy can torrent them to death.

Boyz (truck or horde) suck. They can torrent people still playing foot lists, and they can beat people who bring las/plas, but vs templates or lash, they don't do anything. In combat they have a good chance of wiping a sqaud, but if they don't kill each and every model, they lose to combat resolution. And lose even more boyz. The 5ed fearless rule killed the boy mob. After 1 turn of combat, you won't have anything worth your time. Ork truk mobs at least are designed with this in mind.

Burnas need transport, and are strong unit if you can get them one. Its a bit difficult, since they can't take a dedicated one. They are a one dimensional unit, for anti infantry. Not exactly needed for orks. (since that is all they can do)

Tankbustas COULD have been decent. If they could get a Dedicated transport. If they didn't have an idiot fluff rule. If they had a guardsman's ballistic skill. To many ifs.

the ork jet bike is terrible. Sure then can be in your opponents face turn 1, and have BS2 TL rokkits.... but the sad thing is that they only hit 50%, vs AV11 (a rhino) they only pen 50%, and 50% do they do what you want (immobile is the goal) I'm not the best at probabilities, but isn't that a 12.5 percent chance to hurt a weak dedicated transport? VS AV12 (which is common i hear) Its even worse. Since you are S7 on the charge if you take buzzsaws, rear AV10 is actually not a gimme. Esp if the opponent remembers there is wheels/tracks on that tank of his. I just don't see why people think they are good. Esp at 70 points for that. At that point level space marines get land speaders with MM and HF.

The warbuggies aren't bad. 30 points for a TL big shoota on a mobile AV10 platform? That's not bad at all. Still, its more anti infantry in a list that doesn't really need it. A good value at least.

Warbikes: not terrible, they cost a little too much IMHO. The number of S5 shooting these guys can put out is nice. Since they aren't the greatest in combat, they fill the same roll as warbuggies. The lower range, is balanced out by the being ok in combat.

Storm boyz. A boyz mob that can actually get across the board while still being an effective unit? yes please! Keep in mind they are effectively a fast mob, that is capped at 20. They get the job done only if your opponent isn't used to them.

Killa Kans: Not terrible. ok BS and the ability to take blast weapons means they are actually decent fire platforms. Don't make the mistake of thinking they are decent in combat. They can crush troop squads in CC, but who can't? VS real CC units, they get obliterated.

DD: bad BS means he is a CC unit, maybe with skorchas. 4 CC weapons is actually a scary unit, if you can get it up the board. Again, this requires either luck, or the lack of skill on the opponents side.

Big guns, flash gits, looted wagons suck so bad I'm not going to cover them. (though cannons aren't bad)

Battle wagons are decent, and your only chance at reliably getting certain units up the board. The upgrades are mostly just points inflation for idiots. There are a couple of exceptions, like if an organizers says Deffrollas work on vehicles. Its not too bad to buy extra weapons if you plan on using it as a dakka bunker. A solid unit as long you don't spend too much on it.

Mega nobs are probably my favorite sleeper unit. They die to AP2, but if you take small throw away units of them, or give them a Mega armor warboss (or the big guy), they can really tear things up if given transport. Since they are massed PK, and have a chance of surviving vs most normal units, they can actually take down transports that remember to move. Since they have 2+ saves, and multiple wounds, it takes quite a torrent of fire to off them. They are also cheaper than how some people run their regular nobs. (and much cheaper than biker nobs)

Biker nobs are an army by themselves. They cost so many points, you have no room for anything else that matters. The being said, if you are lucky to face off vs an opponent who either A: doesn't know how to beat them, or B: his list/codex CAN'T beat them. You are in good shape. It can give the better lists out their a run for their money, but they aren't what they used to be when they first hit the scene. Still a solid respectable army, just not the uber cheese is was a few months ago.

Gretchen are the best troop choice. A specialist unit that is the best at doing what it does in the game: cheap cannon fodder, or cheap large scoring unit. These little 3 point wonders even have the dubious ability to clear mine fields, an ability that is not reflected in the point cost! Attempts at humor aside, they are the best scoring unit orks have, who is honestly going to try and attack gretchen until they have too?

Kommandos are a good unit, a great unit if they have the special character upgrade.

Other than the weird boy, all the HQ units have a good use. The stand outs being the KFF, and the warboss. Special characters are a bit lame (IMHO), but the big guy, and wazzdakka are great.

So the units worth taking IMHO are: lootas, gretchin, KK and DD, cannons, battle wagons, meganobs, stormboyz, biker nobs, warbuggies, Kommandos, and burnas.

My conclusions:

Fast attack and elite sections are stuffed with units that are good, the elite has too many that you actually really need. If you want lootas, you need multiple units, which means you don't get nobs unless you take warbosses, which means you don't get the KFF. And if you take lootas in the proper numbers, there is no room for kommandos at all. None of the good units can handle heavy armor at range. Only a couple of the good units are actually decent in CC. Most of the units that are worth taking are almost as pricey as a space marine or SoB, or more so. Orks don't get BS 4, 3+ armor, or good leadership. The only points break orks get are on units that are just terrible. Add in no access to melta weapons and poor anti armor in general, I just don't see how they can do well vs a proper 5th ed list.

What they can do is beat up on 4th lists, people who are new to the game, or people who brought an unbalanced list that is weak vs what you brought. (and of course, they beat fluff bunnies)

Event results are a poor indication of how good an army is. Most people who attend, are not as serious about winning as many would think. Quite a few players just show up to have fun, or play with armies they have, not the ones they want. A decent amount of people are really there for the painting competitions.

Quite a few events have a wonky pairing system. Any event which uses soft scores for pairing, or doesn't use random first round pairings is suspect. (and I personally think that a cut to a top 4-8 playoff after swiss pairings is best) What the results are useful for: what armies are being played, and what you should take if you are serous about beating them. If people refuse to bring hard lists to a tourney, then you should show up with a list that beats them. Orks are competitive vs the armies that show up in large numbers at event. They aren't competitive when large numbers of 5th ed mech show up. (were this to actually happen that is)

Sorry about the wall of text, I just figured it would better to just most of thoughts about the subject into one post, than to post multiple times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/872876.page GMT At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. [b]Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed.[/b] Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?![/quote]

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

If your that huddled in a corner I just deploy the farthest out I can in a spearhead formation, suck up turn one shooting if have to and then spread my formation to make sure your turn 2 move (are you gonna shoot or move?) will keep you in my 14-27" charge range in turn 2. If you pop some BW's in turn two it really does not matter, cause you shot and my charge at a minimum is going to extend at least 14". That is if you go first.

At that point your rear armor is going to pay.

It could go either way depending on the dice, but far, far from "guaranteed".

At this point in the debate, you guys are going to think what your going to think. I guess I can only hope I draw you at a tournament.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873356.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873392.page GMT At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. [b]Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed.[/b] Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?![/quote]

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.

If your that huddled in a corner I just deploy the farthest out I can in a spearhead formation, suck up turn one shooting if have to and then spread my formation to make sure your turn 2 move (are you gonna shoot or move?) will keep you in my 14-27" charge range in turn 2. If you pop some BW's in turn two it really does not matter, cause you shot and my charge at a minimum is going to extend at least 14". That is if you go first.

At that point your rear armor is going to pay.

It could go either way depending on the dice, but far, far from "guaranteed".

At this point in the debate, you guys are going to think what your going to think. I guess I can only hope I draw you at a tournament.[/quote]
Could you post your 1750 4 Battlewagon list?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873393.page GMT
If you deploy your Battlewagons first, then I deploy the other side/in Reserve.

If you go first with Koptas, I won't be close enough for you to hit.

PLEASE stop assuming I'm an idiot, huh?

Also, I live in Northern Ireland, not England.


NotaBot, I love you too.

Methoderik, count my Lances. Then, add in what you can't see, 15 Fire Dragons, and Yriel. Plenty to kill BWs with there. Especially when I'm actually shooting you in the side.

@Olympia: On a serious note, if possible, are you going to the Irish GT? Since I intend to go, and will likely play Eldar, perhaps it is YOU who can put their money etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873395.page GMT At 1750 your Wagons are dead by turn 2 and your infantry is being pounded with Prism blasts. [b]Guaranteed. No, seriously; guaranteed.[/b] Lance weapons hate you. Oh no wait but then comes the WAAAGH! and... oh dear, where are the Skimmers?![/quote]

Hardly. I bring 4 at minimum. Armor 14, granted against a lance means you need to hit, glance on 4's (I am still moving) and get by my KFF. And you only have 1.5 turns to do it. Sorry, you can't bring enough twin linked lances to that party in 1750, especially if your date is Fire Prisms.[/quote]

Actually it's pretty easy for Wave Serpents to wall off your battle wagons and trap them in a small area. Then you're stuck with the [shitty] choice of disembarking to whack away at SMF or trying to ram your way out... even if Deffrollas work you're still not going to get all those serpents out of the way in a single turn; meanwhile the prisms have shot far away and are still peppering you with blasts. He can split his force and be effective, you can't.

Serpent spam Eldar are very good at dealing with Big Rock armies like BW spam and Raider spam. And BW Orks basically have to play as a Big Rock army because if you try splitting them off you lose KFF and become vulnerable to shooting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873405.page GMT
I have also crushed nob bikers [i]with necrons multiple times[/i] in 5th ed. What does that say about necrons?

Absolutely nothing. 'Crons are weak in 5th ed. Of course, I have since sold my necron army to said ork player, but meh.

In the world of mathhammer, orks do not cut it in the elite group of army lists, especially in the 'ard boyz. There are many things that 'make' them 'competitive' (soft scores), none of which has anything to do with numbers.

They are not a terrible army and in the hands of a good player can perform well.

But all things being equal, the odds do not favor them...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/873778.page GMT [quote=The Green Git]I just noticed something...

Frank Fugger -> England
Elesar -> England
Pringles978 -> England

Coincidence? Let the reader decide. [/quote]

[quote=Elessar]
Also, I live in Northern Ireland, not England.


quote]

Elessar: im fairly sure its all the same to them, the lack of knowledge about anything outside of their own short history and reciting the state capitals is staggering
amongst the majority of the populance. i was in texas last year and nobody i met could tell me where iraq, afganistan or iran was other than a vague reference to "the middle east", lol]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874065.page GMT Could you post your 1750 4 Battlewagon list?[/quote]

You can run 4 Battlewagons happily enough at 1500 points. The list, roughly, consists of
HQ
Big Mek w/KFF
Ork Warboss

TROOPS
18 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
19 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
19 boyz + nob w/pk and bp
9 nobz + painboy (BW as dedicated transport)

HEAVY
Battlewagon
Battlewagon
Battlewagon

With 1750 you could add snikrot or deff koptas etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874133.page GMT The problem being, of course, when you get to an opponent who CAN handle [x], [y] and [z], and can also handle [a], [b] and [c] as well. Raider-spam and the ease with which it gets swept aside by the likes of Mechdar, Vulkan Bikers and even Meltabomb-Blood Claws is a cautionary lesson as to why taking things purely because you don't think your opponent will have the tools to deal with them is a bad idea. The Ork Codex's problem is that the entire army list seems to have been built around this very tenet, and thus Ork players can do nothing BUT take stuff and count on their opponents not to be able to deal with it.
[/quote]

That doesn't convince me. There'll always be someone who can deal with Oblits, or Wave Serpents, or boyz. I really don't see how the Ork codex follows that tenet any more or less than others. The choices offered are quite solid for what they can do. Your line of reasoning also seems to invalidate the effects of being resilient because it relies on the opposition to be unprepared, and yet it is a great boon. Perhaps Orks won't last as long against templates (although it takes considerable effort to amass enough to matter in the right location), but then again, Termis won't last that long against plasma.

[quote]
That's not how optimising works.
[/quote]

That's exactly how it works, Frank. Your example simply proves my point. Those Vulkan Bikers are already the answer to the "What if I chance upon...?" question. They just make the process of selecting the right thing exceedingly easy.

[quote]
Optimising is about taking stuff that can handle itself against anything and is capable of doing something worthwhile each turn (even if it's only sitting on a point in a Land Raider so's it counts as scoring), not taking whatever you'd normally take and stuffing a few "utility" upgrades in there too.
[/quote]

Then I take it that you would never include Fire Dragons. They cannot handle themselves against anything, not even with an Exarch. 99 % of the units everywhere cannot handle anything - why again did you mention tacticals being worse than specialists? Having said that, neither generalists nor specialists can handle everything.

[quote]
The fact that they all revolve around me not having the tools to deal with their low-grade-ass lots-of-dice expendability crap blunts that edge; because if I do, they're stuck.
[/quote]

Nonsense. Even if you have those tools, they still need to work together. A single flamer isn't going to stop them, so you need to coordinate stuff. Yes, of course it is possible. Of course it may be second nature to some Veterans. And yet, you assume that the Orks do not have the tools to deal with that. Your MM speeder is quite easily big shoota'ed out of the sky though.

[quote=Frank Fugger][quote=artyboy]Battlewagons aren't that easy to kill.[/quote]

Krak Grenades can penetrate them and regular SM/ Ork CC attacks will Glance them. They're not HARD to kill either.
[/quote]

And? IG doesn't. The fact that one army might perhaps do something again tells us nothing. The exact same thing applies to Mechdar. It's not about killing them so much as it is about killing them at the right time. Krak grenades aren't the answer to Orks I'm afraid, not the reason why the latter would be weak.

[quote=Elessar]
The distinction is this:

If using MechDar, there are certain lists (AirCav, for example) that you REALLY don't want to face - it stretches the list to almost breaking point to take it on at it's own level and to get victory is a serious test of the player and the army.

With Necrons, there are lists you CAN'T reliably beat - this is why they aren't competitive. Orks have the same issue.
[/quote]

That's an articifial distinction. There are lists that Mechdar will have problems with and there are lists that [insert Ork flavour] will have problems with. Mechdar cannot *reliably* beat everyone.

[quote=Elessar]
Facts (again):

Orks can't reliably kill AV14
Orks can't reliably kill Seer Councils
Orks can't get into CC with, and therefore beat, MechDar, or, even worse, DE.
Orks can't cope with Manticores and Multiple Rocket Pods.
Lootas/Burnas require Dedicated Transports in a 5th Edition environment.
[/quote]

#1: not very relevant because Raider spam will succumb to melta spam and most everything is AV11 max. Orks do have very good answers to AV11.
#2: irrelevant because it isn't anything special for Orks. No-one can reliably kill them. Orks are extremely well pepared to tarpit them though.
#3: Of course they can. Move towards the objectives and MechDar can zip around as much as they like - or come to you.
#4: Of course they can. Deffkoptas can, Snikrot can...the fact that this again can be countered is a moot point because that screen around the Manticore is just as useful against Vulkan bikers or WS-Fire Dragons.
#5: If 5th is the Mechanized Edition, everything requires a transport, and most are dedicated. If Orks use transports, they're obviously a 5th edition army.

[quote]
The Ork Codex suffers to much from FoC Saturation - ie, too many choices worth taking compete for the same options, the best example being Elites - taking Nob Bikers and Lootas means taking Nobs as Troops. Is this bad? Only if you want Kommandos, Burnas, Tankbustas...or a KFF.
The KFF is too good, because it forces it's inclusion in a sensible Mech Ork list. Thinks that are taken because they're too good to ignore, rather than just being great on their own strength are bad, as they restrict player choice, and strategy.
[/quote]

Again all of these points can be applied to other factions. The IG codex is chock full of choices worth taking. The Eldar codex is full of good choices, as are SM and Daemons. Both have units that seem too good to pass up. Too good to ignore and being great on their own strength is just fancy play with words.

[quote=Elessar]I disagree that Lootas kill MechDar.
[/quote]

But that isn't what you said before, is it? It's not about killing. It's about neutralizing stuff. You can take away the mobility or parts thereof off a Mechdar list, and that is quite useful. DeffKoptas cannot be outmaneouvred. Forget that. It's simply wrong and needs no further debate. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874210.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874237.page GMT
Actually the premise of the thread is that skill level is equal, and at a very high level, making the sheer mechanics of the lists the fundamental driver in determining their strength/weaknesses.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874445.page GMT Are orks the absolute best army in 40k? No.
Are orks overpowered and unstoppable? No.
Can an intelligent general build a solid list to challenge any build out there? Yes.

Orks are solid when run properly? Absolutely.

I have taken too many tier 1 lists down with orks to agree that they are not a tier 1 army.

All of this theoryhammer is funny. You say I would <insert asinine claim that can neither be substantiated nor implemented under most circumstances> and the orks have no answer.

Every unit in every codex has a paper to it's rock.

Army build, deployment, movement, and sound strategy and tactics are what win games, and orks are as capable as any.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874458.page GMT
I play orks, and beat people who are skilled players. Against a talented opponent a sledgehammer is still a valid weapon if swung skillfully.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874473.page GMT
Actually the premise of the thread is that skill level is equal, and at a very high level, making the sheer mechanics of the lists the fundamental driver in determining their strength/weaknesses.[/quote]

You can be the most bad ass player on the planet, but unless you are using tricksey dice, The dice roll is the great equalizer. Taking into account a high skill level is fine and all, but all the theory hammer I'm seeing is under the assumption that the dice are going your way. That's not always the case. I know alot of the twin linked, special "roll dice until you get the result you want" abilities that some armies have in a way negates that, but that is not always the case.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874513.page GMT
The question is not how good a player is, or if lucky match-ups occured, etc. The questions that should be asked is simply this:

1) Do Orks have the tools do deal with everything they need to in a competitive environment; and

2) If yes, do they have these tools in the abundance that other armies do?

Ork players: Try not to treat this as an attack on you as a person or a competitor. Try to focus on the tools you have to perform with. Could they be better?
[/quote]

I see it is happening again. The question should not be "Can Orks do well with..." and a list of conditions a mile long like "played by a strong player" and "if the planets align". See my questions 1 & 2. Take all other variables out of it, do Orks have all the tools, in enough abundance, to be the top competitors.

Many opposers are saying, 'No, because they cant reliably deal with x,y,z. Here is the mathematical reasons why...' While proponents are stating, 'Well I am great and I always win'. I just don't see how the latter argument really stands up to the former.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874517.page GMT [b]
PLEASE stop assuming I'm an idiot, huh?[/b]

Methoderik, count my Lances. Then, add in what you can't see, 15 Fire Dragons, and Yriel. Plenty to kill BWs with there. Especially when I'm actually shooting you in the side.

[/quote]

First, your not really making that too easy on us . Second, sure deployments are going to be purely situational I get that. I kinda figured that was assumed. Third, if you think my BW list is about the BW's themselves, well then I don't really know what to tell you. What is inside is what matters.

[quote=sourclams]

Actually it's pretty easy for Wave Serpents to wall off your battle wagons and trap them in a small area. Then you're stuck with the [shitty] choice of disembarking to whack away at SMF or trying to ram your way out... even if Deffrollas work you're still not going to get all those serpents out of the way in a single turn; meanwhile the prisms have shot far away and are still peppering you with blasts. He can split his force and be effective, you can't.

Serpent spam Eldar are very good at dealing with Big Rock armies like BW spam and Raider spam. And BW Orks basically have to play as a Big Rock army because if you try splitting them off you lose KFF and become vulnerable to shooting.[/quote]

I agree, my post was really in response to that silly deployment pictured. At 1,750 with Yriel, 15 Dragons, and Fire Prisms how many wave serpents is he really bringing? And I would welcome a wall off. The wave serpents are going to die very quickly in that situation. I am going to charge with around 50 Power Klaw attacks, and if they are walling me off, I am probably going to charge multiple if not all. They're armor 10 in the rear right, so my boyz are going to get in on the action as well. And once the Wave serpents are done, then what? Now possibly add in Deff Rollaz, and you get a whole new scenario, or boarding planks and grabbing klaws. [b]It is so situational.[/b]

And really that is my point to this whole stupid thread. It is all situational. Frank, Elessar and whoever coming in here and saying orks suck "guaranteed" and crap like that just makes them sound... well dumb.

I am not arguing that Orks are some all powerful codex that smash through competition with auto wins. I'm not that arrogant and pompous. All I am saying is that they are competitive at the highest level. Any real gamer knows that winning a tournament or placing well is just as much luck as it is skill/list. Again, situational.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874519.page GMT Many opposers are saying, 'No, because they cant reliably deal with x,y,z. Here is the mathematical reasons why...' While proponents are stating, 'Well I am great and I always win'. I just don't see how the latter argument really stands up to the former.[/quote]

That's because the answer is yes the orks have all the tools they need. It's up to the player to correctly adapt to the battle. The only thing orks might be a bit worried about is AV14. If someone is spamming LRs then it's a valid scenario to field tankbustas. Even without tankbustas I'd still mass charge the LRs and grabba klaw em, boarding plank and PK them to death. If deff rollas are allowed to hit vehicles than that's just another boon. Orks can be geared to meet any situation.

If your list can't beat the LRs then deny the LRs kills by any means and kill all the other stuff on the table. You can always resort to a long range regular ram if you are desperate.

Usually you can present a list to counter any other list. That's the way the game is designed so all this theory hammer being thrown around is just one large circular argument.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874576.page GMT
Actually the premise of the thread is that skill level is equal, and at a very high level, making the sheer mechanics of the lists the fundamental driver in determining their strength/weaknesses.[/quote]

You can be the most bad ass player on the planet, but unless you are using tricksey dice, The dice roll is the great equalizer. Taking into account a high skill level is fine and all, but all the theory hammer I'm seeing is under the assumption that the dice are going your way. That's not always the case. I know alot of the twin linked, special "roll dice until you get the result you want" abilities that some armies have in a way negates that, but that is not always the case.[/quote]
Which is why you should always assume average dice rolls when theorizing.. You can't rely on good dice rolls or bad dice rolls when discussing anything like this :/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874611.page GMT
The question is not how good a player is, or if lucky match-ups occured, etc. The questions that should be asked is simply this:

1) Do Orks have the tools do deal with everything they need to in a competitive environment; and

2) If yes, do they have these tools in the abundance that other armies do?

Ork players: Try not to treat this as an attack on you as a person or a competitor. Try to focus on the tools you have to perform with. Could they be better?
[/quote]

I see it is happening again. The question should not be "Can Orks do well with..." and a list of conditions a mile long like "played by a strong player" and "if the planets align". See my questions 1 & 2. Take all other variables out of it, do Orks have all the tools, in enough abundance, to be the top competitors.

Many opposers are saying, 'No, because they cant reliably deal with x,y,z. [b]Here is the mathematical reasons why[/b]...' While proponents are stating, 'Well I am great and I always win'. I just don't see how the latter argument really stands up to the former.[/quote]


Could you point me at all the posts in this thread where one of the opposers throws out all this "math" you speak of? I have seen a little, but your post makes it seem like they have been proving their point with math for pages now, and none of the Orks can counter anything they say.

It's getting frustrating because they haven't really "proven" anything, and are not likely to. Orks may not be the best army in the game, but I think they are competitive, and I've played them a lot, and in a very competitive environment. The naysayers say, we can't handle[insert long list of opinions, or things that all armies have trouble with]. The Ork players say, they can handle most of those things, as well as other armies, and better than some. Thats just all we are ever going to get to really.

Unless the guys on both sides of this argument meet up at the Ard Boyz finals and face eachother in the tournament. Then, I guess we shall see what we shall see.




Clay]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/874743.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875007.page GMT SM list, or a DE list. Most of this thread isn't taking into account the big picture.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875042.page GMT SM list, or a DE list. Most of this thread isn't taking into account the big picture.[/quote]

Didn't we do this, like, 10 pages ago?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875061.page GMT SM list, or a DE list. Most of this thread isn't taking into account the big picture.[/quote]

Didn't we do this, like, 10 pages ago?[/quote]

And 8 pages ago....and 6 pages ago.....and 4 pages ago.....and the band plays on.

GG]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875233.page GMT
Let me put it to you this to you this way. Take a similar easier to understand game. What is the ork strategy in bloodbowl. They can't pass, can't catch, can't run...what can they do? They can hit. An ork bloodbowl player will hit you with everything they got and hope you never get up. While you are on the ground dieing they can drop the ball as much as they want as they jog into the end zone. It's the same here. 40k orks hit and hit hard and hope you never get up. Just because a strategy isn't elegant or balanced doesn't mean it's not effective. It's just a different play style. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875238.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875303.page GMT
If you think the first round of 'Ard Boyz is competitive then I've got some magic beans to sell you.

Turnout was so poor this year that in some places you literally could have brought anything and placed in the top 3. Literally [i]anything[/i] (there were 3 players at my store).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875875.page GMT
Not FOR noobs, FULL OF noobs.

Having now read some more about Necro, I say, in my opinion, that is was a pathetic excuse for a competition, and that I have no idea how ANYONE Top Ten'd with such dreadful lists. I read somewhere that the MechDar player who lost to Marc parker was good - maybe so, but I've read his list, and it is [i]not[/i].

I can't recall all the previous points, and I'm not re-scrolling 2 pages to quote various posters, sorry.

I think I've mathmatically proved that Lootas are not a reliable answer to AV12, especially AV12 that has Holo-Fields.

That 1750 list includes 9 Grav Tanks, and Pathfinders to get in your way. It's amazing what optimising things allows you to squeeze in.

Deploying 1st against Orks, I spread out, one prism per corner, one in the middle, with a FD escort.

Deploying 2nd relies on your deployment - but assume I can't physically place my Lances further back, and everything else is Reserved, except Pathfinders.

@phillosmaster: - not even my cOrkaine gag? Oh well. In fairness, I think we've made more points against orks than "I play Orks and they're good" - not everyone says this, but it IS the most common argument against our claims. Obviously, an unbalanced ork list, attempting to One Trick Pony the opponent is going to beat at least 3/5 lists...thing is, if it hits the counter, or even someone who can deny them a win, they're screwed. It's unwise to assume (if this really were a competitive environment) that you wouldn't hit the counter.

I also don't think that Ard Boyz is the best points level to prove the point anyway. 2500 points allows you to take those 3 Battlewagons and 45 Lootas, while STILL fielding 200+ Boyz. Now, if there were no time limit on games, maybe. Timing the opponent out for 1KP wins is poor sportsmanship, and makes for a hollow win indeed.

@Number9dream: - I'm the only person I reemember posting maths, and I did use average rlls, except for number of Loota shots - so I don't understand Toxxic's posts either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/875977.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876212.page GMT

Memo, I like it.

Most of my opponents have caught up, or are playing semi-5th at least. There are a few kids, and several fluff bunnies, but in no way do I tone it down for them, because then they won't learn.

In my current list, there are actually no Holos - but the maths above didn't take them into account anyway.

RGL certainly hurts MechDar. Fortunately this can be circumvented in general Tourny play, as even if there isn't a set turn limit (as Ard Boyz) there is a time limit, and it's easy to judge, with practice. By the end of turn one you should know how many turns it's going to, and adjust accordingly.

Sadly, I'm the best Ork player I know, so it's difficult to get in decent practice against Orks at their best. Being a better player than the other Ork players I encounter certainly skews the results a bit, but it shouldn't skew it as much as it does.

When I return from holiday, however, I plan to lend my Eldar to an equally skilled friend (although he's never played Eldar) while I take him on with Orks. BatReps will be forthcoming. Admittedly, I expect to beat him in the first game at least - but we'll see what happens.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876715.page GMT
It's because you expect the Ork player to show you math. Ork players don't do math. Ork players smash skulls. An Ork's strategy is like an Orks technology. It works just because he believes it works much to the surprise and horror of the Ork's enemy.

But seriously why is making a one trick pony list any less risky than making one of the optimized lists presented in this thread. I've seen counter lists posted for each configuration. There is always a risk that someone will field your lists counter. There is no golden list for any army because every good list builder is always changing his line up to counter popular lists. Once people start fielding these "5th edition armies" people will just start fielding their counters to stay competitive. That's been going on for years. The game is about match ups. If you get stuck with a bad match up then you have to hope that you can out think your player on the field or you can get good dice rolls. That is all there is to it. The problem is this thread assumes that list building is 100% of what makes a player and his army competitive. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876879.page GMT
Also, unless it was a typo, I said OTP lists are more risky.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876883.page GMT
The point that is trying to be shown is that those same 'good ork players' would enjoy more success with other options than that limiting codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876896.page GMT
Seriously I know you are tired of the I see orks win therefore orks are competitive argument, but I just finished reading that lengthy batrep about an ork player clean sweeping the Liber Animus tournament.

My argument still stands though that someone could always post a counter to any other list. You can say skill and luck is irrelevant for this argument, but if we are only discussing list match ups, whether you are going to win over a random set of other skillfully built lists is always going to come down to luck because someone can always field your counter. Even with a tier 3 army.

If the anti-orks want to post statistics to prove that an OTP list is more risky than an optimized list than go ahead. That's a hell of alot of work. I'm certainly not going to post counter statistics. I could potentially make that my graduate thesis since there are so many floating variables. I think I'll just trust my experience, tournament results, and the batreps I read. Everything I see tells me those OTP list work just as often.

I still think it's debatable that balanced lists are the only way to go. In fact OTP lists are meant to bring down balanced lists specifically by spamming beyond the balanced players ability to counter his threat. Therefore optimized list can be countered and certainly OTP lists can be countered. List building is about anticipating what your opponents will bring to the tournament not about building a completely balanced list. If you have one of everything and I have tons of one thing I have a good chance of destroying your one thing that threatens me. This is especially true since the orks spam unit is usually PK nob with boys squad mech squad. You get mobility, anti-horde and anti-armor all in one cheap package. What is it that you think ork players fear so much that they can't counter it? It's not armor 14. It's not template spam. We've shown counter to both of those. I'd certainly like TL rail guns on my battlewagon and meltaguns in my boyz squads, but I don't think the orks need them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876921.page GMT Having now read some more about Necro, I say, in my opinion, that is was a pathetic excuse for a competition, and that I have no idea how ANYONE Top Ten'd with such dreadful lists. I read somewhere that the MechDar player who lost to Marc parker was good - maybe so, but I've read his list, and it is [i]not[/i].

I can't recall all the previous points, and I'm not re-scrolling 2 pages to quote various posters, sorry.[/quote]

So while sitting in Northern Ireland you have deduced that the Necronomicon, a very large annual 40K tournament in the state of Florida (an ocean and continent away), is a pathetic excuse for a competition. And... you learned this from the "internets". In one broad sweep you have managed to insult the hundreds of people who attended that event and helped organize it.

While I risk banning with my next statement, I can't really help myself.

You are one of the biggest F@cktards I have ever had the displeasure of coming in contact with on this forum.

You wouldn't take it easy on a kid "cause it wouldn't help them learn anything". What a dick.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/876986.page GMT
It's a tournament badly written by Fantasy players, who gave a low comp score to a freaking Nidzilla list.

I've read about 1/3 of the participating lists, including at least half of the top ten.

They were all, barring Marc Parker's, terrible. His was merely mediocre.

If this is what passes for competitive play in your mind, then Orks are the best Codex everz, and Tic Tac Te is a difficult game.

Go suck a lemon.

Also, as for insulting the players who attended, it's not the first time today I've done so, and it won't be the last. They have every right to play the game however they want, but they can't seriously call that competitive. FYI, I've been reading up on it for over a month now - the poor quality wasn't the surprise, just the extent of the crapness.

I really don't care if you get banned or not, because you have little of interest to say - so i haven't even reported your post. Edit it out, and you might not get the thread locked, which probably doesn't matter to you either way I suppose.

Hang on, I didn't even say [i]anything[/i] about inexperienced players...If you're referring to comments I made on YTTH, then man up and say so, share with the class.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877026.page GMT
Is it: My list makes me win against my opponents lists ?

or: The statistical average of the combined stats in my list beat the statistical average of the combined stats in my opponents lists ?

or something else i'm not getting ?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877156.page GMT
One that has the tools, in sufficient number, to take out virtually any threat, or to circumvent said threats in such a way that they may as well be eliminated.

Ideally, they would also be versatile enough to deal with OTP lists, but that's not a given.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877169.page GMT

Most of my opponents have caught up, or are playing semi-5th at least. [b]There are a few kids, and several fluff bunnies, but in no way do I tone it down for them, because then they won't learn.
[/b]
[/quote]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877173.page GMT

Sadly, I'm the best Ork player I know [/quote]

sad, sad. sad that you are hanging out with a bunch of noobs
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877175.page GMT
Orks suck....no orks good....no they suck.....I play Eldar - thus I have the superior army and tactics (not to mention the stylish clothes and immaculately done nails). It's really entertaining.

Fact- Orks have won tournaments - several. Armies/tactics have evolved to neuter the builds that won those tournaments. Orks may not win as much now.

Fact - Marines and Sisters have won tournaments (Waagh/Necro). Armies will evolve to deal with those builds. Although the Marine build that won the Waagh was more an INCREDIBLE general than list - my opinion which along with $2.75 gets you coffee at Starbucks.

Most important fact - GOOD GENERALS win tournaments. More important than the lists, theory hammers, etc. The lists will HELP a good general win - but they aren't the answer. Guys like Parker, Muetschler, Crew, Cauley, Sparks, Swanson, etc - that consistently and constantly win or place high in pretty much every tourney they play in are....GOOD GENERALS. They do it in spite of all the theory hammer, internet lists, etc. They do it - contrary to what a lot of internet tools want to say - without loaded dice or cheating or "insert gimmick here that makes them not be better than me so my frail fragile ego won't be crushed by a game".

So...if you want to be the best, have others call you the best (instead of saying it yourself), cowboy up and beat the best. I.E. Show me 'da money....

In before the lock!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877180.page GMT 40K. We are presented with an impossible point to defend. What is the statistical average of the set of all other possible lists in 40K. Instead of proving or disproving this monumental task we are getting into small deterministic arguments about can this list beat this list. My point is that argument can never end, since every list can be counter somehow. To suggest that there is an uncounterable list that could always defeat orks assumes that there is a threat that the orks cannot possibly defend agianst and I have yet to see that threat defined.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877194.page GMT

Most of my opponents have caught up, or are playing semi-5th at least. [b]There are a few kids, and several fluff bunnies, but in no way do I tone it down for them, because then they won't learn.
[/b]
[/quote][/quote]

Ah, sorry, I forgot this comment. Fair enough, I'll explain, since it obviously wasn't clear. I don't tone down my list. I said nothing about my playing style.

@Orkish: If I wanted your opinion, I'd ask ...you know how that ends, right? I'm one of the best players I know, whether you like it or not, it's true.

@Aldonis: I sincerely wish I could afford to travel the US and even the UK stomping face and teaching people to play 5th properly. Since I can't I resort to teh interwebz.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877196.page GMT [/b]
It's a tournament badly written by Fantasy players, who gave a low comp score to a freaking Nidzilla list.

I've read about 1/3 of the participating lists, including at least half of the top ten.

They were all, barring Marc Parker's, terrible. His was merely mediocre.

If this is what passes for competitive play in your mind, then Orks are the best Codex everz, and Tic Tac Te is a difficult game.

Go suck a lemon.

Also, as for insulting the players who attended, it's not the first time today I've done so, and it won't be the last. They have every right to play the game however they want, but they can't seriously call that competitive. FYI, I've been reading up on it for over a month now - the poor quality wasn't the surprise, just the extent of the crapness.

I really don't care if you get banned or not, because you have little of interest to say - so i haven't even reported your post. Edit it out, and you might not get the thread locked, which probably doesn't matter to you either way I suppose.

Hang on, I didn't even say [i]anything[/i] about inexperienced players...[b]If you're referring to comments I made on YTTH, then man up and say so, share with the class.[/b][/quote]

I understand that with the incredible amount of verbal diarrhea you are spewing out it would be hard to keep track.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877199.page GMT
Only a BossClaw, or a DeffDread has a realistic chance, and only then if they can Immob it.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
@Methoderik, no worries, I accept your apology.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877201.page GMT @Aldonis: [b]I sincerely wish I could afford to travel the US and even the UK stomping face and teaching people to play 5th properly.[/b] Since I can't I resort to teh interwebz.[/quote]

Wow... lucky us?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877208.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877208.page GMT
It's a tournament badly written by Fantasy players, who gave a low comp score to a freaking Nidzilla list.

I've read about 1/3 of the participating lists, including at least half of the top ten.

They were all, barring Marc Parker's, terrible. His was merely mediocre.

If this is what passes for competitive play in your mind, then Orks are the best Codex everz, and Tic Tac Te is a difficult game.

[/quote]

So presumably, then, you are able to present results from well designed tournament participated by elite players with kick-ass lists, where Orks failed to show up anywhere near the top positions.

'cause if you don't, your argument sorta looks stupid.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877214.page GMT
@Aldonis: I sincerely wish I could afford to travel the US and even the UK stomping face and teaching people to play 5th properly. Since I can't I resort to teh interwebz.[/quote]

Would be fun.....I would imagine that a lot of the Ork players would love to see how they would match up to your lists.

But realize - until you do something like that - it's all just talk. Big fish - small pond.......]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877236.page GMT
If I ran a tourny, perhaps it wuold meet at least half of your stipulations...sadly, I only get official GW events. They're not poorly run, but not terribly well either. Perhaps the Irish GT will be different, I'll be sure to let you know.

That said, a proper World Championship, where there was no entry fee, and travel etc paid for by someone other than players, would not have many Orks in the Top Ten. Certainly, they wouldn't win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877241.page GMT @Aldonis: I sincerely wish I could afford to travel the US and even the UK stomping face and teaching people to play 5th properly. [/quote]

woo lucky us, else all newcomers will be as dumb as you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877245.page GMT

[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
@Orkish - next post, I report. I'm pretty fed up of you being a dick with nothing to offer the discussion I'm trying to have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877246.page GMT btw).

On any given Sunday - anything can happen.....

There are few if any absolutes in the world - and none in 40K.

Good Generals/Players can and will win - regardless of the optimized lists, matchups, etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877248.page GMT
And remember:
[img]http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/funny-pictures-kitten-is-evil.jpg[/img]
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/247835/877267.page GMT