http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net I got this email today from a eBay Seller...

[quote=treadhead2004]Dear [Panic]
Due to restrictions placed on us by Games Workshop, we are now unable to sell new Games Workshop products through e bay. As from the 1st August, our listings of new GW products will cease, so grab a bargain while you can!

However, We do have an independent web site from which you can continue to buy brand new, sealed Games Workshop Products at a discounted price. Even better, we will be offering free postage for all orders over £10.00 to UK buyers and a reduced rate to overseas buyers. Our web site will continue to grow with listings and will be fully stocked by 1st August.

Our website has a pay pal operated checkout cart so you will continue to receive secure payment and protection service when shopping with us.
At Arcane Scenery & Models we pride ourselves on fast despatch and superb customer service. We hope that you will visit us at:
www.arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk

If you do not see the item that you would like, please contact us through the shop and we will endeavour to full fill your order as quickly as possible and at the best price available.

In the meantime, all of our other manufacturers ranges will continue to be available through ebay at competive prices and we will be expanding our ranges to bring you even more great scenery, kits and modelling products at the best prices.

Regards, Steve[/quote]

Panic....

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854574.page GMT GW noticed and is continuing to go after internet retailers as they've been doing for years?

I don't think legally that GW can say "you can't sell this product on eBay" but they can say "If you sell this on eBay, you no longer qualify for retailer special treatment."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854580.page GMT GW has issued a statement about this some time ago.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854584.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854590.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854592.page GMT IIRC, a retailer gets to purchase product from GW at a better "rate" if they meet certain criteria, ie, have a brick and mortar location, play games, etc. So, stores that only have an online presence get a worse "rate" buying product from GW.

This means that unless you do huge volume, there's no reason for a retailer to sell on ebay anymore for a potentially reduced profit. (Unless they can guarantee a huge volume, but that's unlikely with a niche product.)

So this isn't that "GW SAYS YOU CAN'T SELL ON EBAY", it just means that their policies are structure in a way to promote brick and mortar store sales, whether good or ill.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854701.page GMT UK, sells some of their items via eBay.

They also have a massive store with 70 tables, a bar and a restaraunt. It's the perfect place for a really awkward first date with the girl who agreed to go out with you out of pity.

Maelstrom Games - Huge discounts and beer. FETH YEAH!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854711.page GMT The main reason I by from GW is I like supporting the actual Brick and Mortar GW stores.

I've bought from Maelstrom in the past and I might actually switch to Maelstrom permanently if they have plans to open a 70 table venue in London!

I mean for gak sake it's the capital of the UK and it has very little by way of battle bunker type places to play. none of the inner London GW stores have any real table space for gamers.

Panic...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854728.page GMT uk/index.php?act=new&ref=147]Nottingham's[/url] [i]kinda[/i] like London... right?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854738.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854745.page GMT [/quote]

Warhammer World certainly worth a look if you're up that way, but not sure I'd make a special trip to polar bear country (anywhere north of the M4) just to see some high quality painted miniatures and a games room that looks like a castle. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854756.page GMT GW that they cant sell stuff on line below retail cost I believe. Actaully I am pretty sure as a bud of mine had a store and got the kybash from GW. This is how GW puts the squeeze on em. They can always but from Alied or other venders at a discount but its not as good as they get from GW. Yes GW will only supply to an actual store (except in the case of mass retailers like alied).

Personally I like the rule. It forces people to buy from their FLGS to help those stores stay in buisness. I have never been a big fan of the EBAY and online discount stores but I love the bitz stores.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/854924.page GMT UK only? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855001.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855012.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855038.page GMT [/quote]

Warhammer World certainly worth a look if you're up that way, but not sure I'd make a special trip to polar bear country (anywhere north of the M4) just to see some high quality painted miniatures and a games room that looks like a castle. [/quote]

Dude you forgot about Bugmans, best pub in the world bar none, mainly because its the only pub i've found not in London that sells Desperado - tastiest beer in the world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855043.page GMT UK ebayer that I have bought from a few times but the US based ones have not sent a thing.... (cue dramatic muzaks)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855107.page GMT AT ALL.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855125.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855128.page GMT

Shhhhh! Dont ruin it for the rest of us.........]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855135.page GMT
Personally I like the rule. It forces people to buy from their FLGS to help those stores stay in buisness. I have never been a big fan of the EBAY and online discount stores but I love the bitz stores.[/quote]

That is BS.

My LGS is crap, I have no FLGS aand I should not be forced to support any certain business, especially one that is sub par. Not everyone lives in the fantasy land that you do in which the LGS is a thing of greatness...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855142.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855154.page GMT The reason they can do this is that they have a very clever method to get around GW's [url=http://www.thewarstore.com/TheGWInternetOrdersPolicy.html] rather clever policy[/url]

Not being a lawyer I'm ignorant in how they can maintain strict control of a sales method for a seller they don't distribute to.
Edit: ignorance solved:

"The decision to comply with this Policy is left to each individual distributor and retailer. However, GAMES WORKSHOP does reserve the right, pursuant to this Policy, to terminate sales of GAMES WORKSHOP products to any distributor and/or retailer that chooses to resell in violation of this Policy."

If you don't buy directly from them they can strongarm your distributor. You'd have to have a holding company of some sort to shield the distributor so they can state under subpoena they don't sell to your internet company. Much like how Coke sells in Cuba past the US embargo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855418.page GMT GW DIRECT or Alliance games (I think)



There are other places ;P out there - that serve as the 'middle' man. Granted - they make roughly 10% off you for merely being the 'middle'.

But once you go through them you can say FETH you GW.


Because you haven't made a policy agreement with gw =)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855492.page GMT GW has, for as long as I can remember, strict limitations on distributors who sell their product online.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855510.page GMT GW' policy - because he - himself - does not violate the policy P.

Once he sells the product to me - he isn't liable on how i sell the product.




Another example - would be making an agreement with a LGS.
I've done it with a few - and bought in bulk.


Serves the same way!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855518.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855529.page GMT

Which is dumb - agreeably.


At the same time... I see their reasoning - it hurts their value of product - as the online world prices things between 20-40% off MSRP.


At the same time - in the same essence- I can see LGS's profitizing now - since the ONLINE world is getting smacked.

They cut off your online source - so where you go next? A GW or LGS.

Since GW pays money to run their stores - OR - LGS's are dependent on local sales.


It benefits everything.


(I am no GW lover at all - just ... thinking about it!)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855547.page GMT
thats the way it is in the US. I spoke with one of their retail managers or whatever you want to call them about becoming a reseller, and you you have to have a brick and mortar store to become reseller. you cant do online only.

[quote=H.B.M.C.]I'd like to take this opportunity to say that Maelstrom Games, a wonderful store in the UK, sells some of their items via eBay.
[/quote]

but not GW stuff anymore. they dont have any GW stuff listed in their ebay store. but yes they are a great store.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855580.page GMT LGS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855630.page GMT

or a super super happy customer =)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855647.page GMT
I like Maelstrom and what they are doing for their community, but they can't match the prices Wayland or Geeks offer, even when I have to add some P&P.

Although I can certainly see why Internationals would favour them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855649.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855671.page GMT GW that they cant sell stuff on line below retail cost I believe. Actaully I am pretty sure as a bud of mine had a store and got the kybash from GW. This is how GW puts the squeeze on em. They can always but from Alied or other venders at a discount but its not as good as they get from GW. Yes GW will only supply to an actual store (except in the case of mass retailers like alied).

Personally I like the rule. It forces people to buy from their FLGS to help those stores stay in buisness. I have never been a big fan of the EBAY and online discount stores but I love the bitz stores.[/quote]

Nope. I'm a current GW retailer, and have had an account for nearly 2 decades. Never had to sign anything remotely like that. Note that the Warstore has sold online at 20% off for years, and is a direct account of GW. What you can't do: Use GW's images in your ads, run an online shopping cart, have an account with GW without a Brick and mortar location.

[i](except in the case of mass retailers like alied). [/i]Alliance Distribution is the actual name. They are a game distributor, not a mass retailer. They sell to stores not the public. You can get GW through several game distributors in the US, but at 5% to 10% less than what you get from GW direct. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855674.page GMT GW might stop supplying people who they Identify as selling online. ( for what ever reason ... )

Who said sellers had to identify themselfs as the same people online as they buy from GW.

dont worry the sky will not fall down.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855679.page GMT
Well, you're the only ones banned from having online shopping carts.

Because, you know, US web surfers only ever see the US part of the internet. Or something.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855963.page GMT
I am not going to buy my stuff directly from GW until they charge a fair price. I pretty much demand at least 20% off all of their products. I want my shopping to be smooth, easy, affordable, and friendly.

The only place I can usually do this seems to be with other players on the second-hand level. No longer in the mood to wait for companies to satisfy my needs, I scratch-build terrain, and at some point I hope to meet enough people to work on changing the rules... scratch that, playing a new game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855973.page GMT
GW can't afford to keep lawyers. They reserve two to three months out of the year to
contract a team of ip-aggressors and then cut them loose the rest of the year.

I've been very good at buying what I can paint. The problem is I paint faster.

After this year is done I'll probably slow down both.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/855977.page GMT
Just a super-happy customer. I am not a plant (how could I be? I'm in Oz and they're in the UK).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856114.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856124.page GMT lol ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856130.page GMT I heard them talking to a mum & her 2 kids about their next gaming open day, & I was really impressed with their attitude -- they just wanted to get the kids more involved, having fun & playing 40K, rather than trying to sell the mum loads of stuff. So I will happily buy there again (though I will likely use Maelstrom for one-off purchases, since they're cheaper for that).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856142.page GMT GW fails the Intarweb.

Again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856462.page GMT GW is going Bankrupt and will still be expecting your compliance!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856560.page GMT GW will only go bankrupt if there are no more 12-year-olds to buy more Ultramarines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856566.page GMT GW fails.[/quote]

Fixed it for you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856582.page GMT GW plans on limiting their customer base specifically to younger people (25- yrs. old) so that they can pretty much guarantee a reliable (and controllable) flow of customers. The older gamers tend to be more experienced in the game itself, on top of having more invested personally in the history of the game. Take these guys out and there will be no serious analysis of GW and their business practices.

Not a conspiracy theory, just common sense shut up the complainers. In a while you may notice they have begun to tone the fluff and background down so parents won't have anything to complain about either. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856648.page GMT GW is right in targeting young adults more nowadays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856658.page GMT GW plans on limiting their customer base specifically to younger people (25- yrs. old) so that they can pretty much guarantee a reliable (and controllable) flow of customers. The older gamers tend to be more experienced in the game itself, on top of having more invested personally in the history of the game. Take these guys out and there will be no serious analysis of GW and their business practices.

Not a conspiracy theory, just common sense shut up the complainers. In a while you may notice they have begun to tone the fluff and background down so parents won't have anything to complain about either. [/quote]

So you actually believe that GW is actually trying to lose sales by discouraging vets from being in the hobby so it can sell to younger people who won't be influenced by the opinions of vets who have been in the hobby for a long time?

Did you know that Obama isn't actually American and isn't legally president.
The moon landing was faked and filmed in a studio
Ann Coulter is a man
The government allowed 9/11 to happen
Microsoft purposefully releases buggy s/w to get you to pay for an upgrade (ok, that one might be true).

uh huh, time to up the dosage on your medication and put that jacket back on - you know the one - one size fits all but is a little tight around the shoulders.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856695.page GMT GW site. I always go on ebay or an indepentent retailer. Since there is no GW stores in san antonio I have to buy my models online, make my own bits for my models (I cast some of my own peices), buy my painting supplies from Hobby lobby. GW is money hungry!


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
Funny...I never brought my stuff from the GW site. I always go on ebay or an indepentent retailer. Since there is no GW stores in san antonio I have to buy my models online, make my own bits for my models (I cast some of my own peices), buy my painting supplies from Hobby lobby. GW is money hungry!


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
Funny...I never brought my stuff from the GW site. I always go on ebay or an indepentent retailer. Since there is no GW stores in san antonio I have to buy my models online, make my own bits for my models (I cast some of my own peices), buy my painting supplies from Hobby lobby. GW is money hungry!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856780.page GMT GW is right in targeting young adults more nowadays.[/quote]

Add these two quotes together minus the second quotes dramatization.

[quote=fullheadofhair][quote=Wrexasaur]My general theory on this is that GW plans on limiting their customer base specifically to younger people (25- yrs. old) so that they can pretty much guarantee a reliable (and controllable) flow of customers. The older gamers tend to be more experienced in the game itself, on top of having more invested personally in the history of the game. Take these guys out and there will be no serious analysis of GW and their business practices.

Not a conspiracy theory, just common sense shut up the complainers. In a while you may notice they have begun to tone the fluff and background down so parents won't have anything to complain about either. [/quote]

So you actually believe that GW is actually trying to lose sales by discouraging vets from being in the hobby so it can sell to younger people who won't be influenced by the opinions of vets who have been in the hobby for a long time?

Did you know that Obama isn't actually American and isn't legally president.
The moon landing was faked and filmed in a studio
Ann Coulter is a man
The government allowed 9/11 to happen
Microsoft purposefully releases buggy s/w to get you to pay for an upgrade (ok, that one might be true).

uh huh, time to up the dosage on your medication and put that jacket back on - you know the one - one size fits all but is a little tight around the shoulders.[/quote]

In the future just P.M. me so no one else has to hear you scream ok? I will make sure to pay attention to your notes...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856821.page GMT
Codex: Daemons.

I win.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/856891.page GMT GW plans on limiting their customer base specifically to younger people (25- yrs. old) so that they can pretty much guarantee a reliable (and controllable) flow of customers. The older gamers tend to be more experienced in the game itself, on top of having more invested personally in the history of the game. Take these guys out and there will be no serious analysis of GW and their business practices.

Not a conspiracy theory, just common sense shut up the complainers. In a while you may notice they have begun to tone the fluff and background down so parents won't have anything to complain about either. [/quote]

This is said time and time again, its based on flawed understanding of sales, Your OLDER market has more income to spend, you need new markets to replace those who move away. GW is not stupid to remove a sector of its market in times like this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/858704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/858704.page GMT GW plans on limiting their customer base specifically to younger people (25- yrs. old) so that they can pretty much guarantee a reliable (and controllable) flow of customers. The older gamers tend to be more experienced in the game itself, on top of having more invested personally in the history of the game. Take these guys out and there will be no serious analysis of GW and their business practices.

Not a conspiracy theory, just common sense shut up the complainers. In a while you may notice they have begun to tone the fluff and background down so parents won't have anything to complain about either. [/quote]

I do agree that GW has tried to shut up their customers by doing things such as shutting down their official forums a few years back but I think they still want and do target vets. Releases like Apocalypse and Planetstrike offer kits that are more likely aimed at guys who already have an established army (Baneblades, Strongholds, etc). IIRC they also opened up a temporary forum to get ideas for Gamesdays a couple of months back so thats a recent example of GW trying to enhance a largely veteran experience of going to GW events...of course GW did end up cancelling such events this year so take from that what you will hehe.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/858784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/858784.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866068.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866145.page GMT 40k/WFB/Specialist Games (*pretends LotR does not exist*), the sale of Apocalypse kits, RoB and scenery kits, not to mention how the redshirts charge at me (31 ears old) every time I set foot in a GW, it is wilfully blind or foolish to suggest GW do not [i]actively target [/i]rich folk with high incomes. To suggest they are trying to [i]drive them away [/i]smacks of [i]idiocy[/i].]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866170.page GMT GW wants to support brick and mortar stores, they are the heart and soul of the hobby and online ebay stores are sucking the life out because only vets know what to buy, new players haven't got a clue and there is no helpful store owner to guide them along. And I have to say, I support that, I really to think it's fantastic.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866463.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866463.page GMT 40k/WFB/Specialist Games (*pretends LotR does not exist*), the sale of Apocalypse kits, RoB and scenery kits, not to mention how the redshirts charge at me (31 ears old) every time I set foot in a GW, it is wilfully blind or foolish to suggest GW do not [i]actively target [/i]rich folk with high incomes. To suggest they are trying to [i]drive them away [/i]smacks of [i]idiocy[/i].[/quote]

[i]Italics![/i]

Sorry, couldn't help it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866476.page GMT CT GAMER][quote=Fishboy]s retailers like alied).

Personally I like the rule. It forces people to buy from their FLGS to help those stores stay in buisness. I have never been a big fan of the EBAY and online discount stores but I love the bitz stores.[/quote]

That is BS.

My LGS is crap, I have no FLGS aand I should not be forced to support any certain business, especially one that is sub par. Not everyone lives in the fantasy land that you do in which the LGS is a thing of greatness...[/quote]

Take a few deep breaths and calm down....
I drive 45 mins in my fantasy land to support a store, and actually try to visit several stores to spread the love. I can understand not everyone has a FLGS but I would have though CT would have something close to you to support.


[quote]My best friend is in the process of opening a store in the midwest. He specifically asked about their pricing based on in store services (painting area, classes, tables,etc.). He was told that is only in Europe. When he asked if they controlled discounting, he was told he could sell their product for any price he wanted. when he asked about online sales he was told the U.S.A. policy is you are not allowed to sell online AT ALL.
[/quote]

Here is a big problem with GW. If you call their sales staff and get a different rep they will all have different answers, kinda like the old rules lawyers thing. I have a few freinds that have started different stores and 2 years ago when they started the teir system was still there. Your level of retailer depended on how much you had in stock more than anything else. Problem was you had to have a starter section which included LOTR which does not do well in this area hehe.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866477.page GMT I drive 45 mins in my fantasy land to support a store, and actually try to visit several stores to spread the love.

[/quote]

I 'm happy for you.

Doesn't change my original point: I as a consumer will choose who I wish to support and how I chose to spend my money.

I am not obligated to support any lgs, especially those that don't meet my needs or are subpar in some way.

My online retailer of choice treats me very well cost-wise, is rarely out of stock on anything I need, and puts the product on my doorstep next day.

On top of that I don't utilize any store's gaming space as I have my own gaming space and club.

When someone opens a store locally that offers a better price or quicker ship time I'll be happy to buy from them...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866512.page GMT AT ALL.
[/quote]

Here is a big problem with GW. If you call their sales staff and get a different rep they will all have different answers, kinda like the old rules lawyers thing. I have a few freinds that have started different stores and 2 years ago when they started the teir system was still there. Your level of retailer depended on how much you had in stock more than anything else. Problem was you had to have a starter section which included LOTR which does not do well in this area hehe.

[/quote]

Mostly correct. The part about online selling is that you cannot have an online shopping cart. This limits most stores to not selling online, but it is still possible to run adds online, and take orders by email and by phone, as Warstore and several others do.

The difference in the North America and European terms of sale is confusing: Europe has a tiered system now, that is based on what services you offer, and it affects the discount you buy at. North America has the same discount for all accounts, (45%). They have a tiered structure for GW support.

- Standard account: No support, free shipping at 400.00 (Pretty much standard in the game industry from any distributor. Amount for free shipping varies some)

-Stockist account: Carry the best selling plastic boxes and core sets. Free shipping, no minimum. Advertising in WD, and 600.00 a year in support for events.


-Partnership account: Carry most everything, have tables, run events, etc. Recieve copies of new codices, access to the preview models in black boxes, free advertising, 1800.00 per year in support. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866645.page GMT
They used to sell 40K at a great discount (Imo). For example the Troops boxes cost 21,50 Euro instead of 30,-, the 20,- boxes cost 14, -, and a Baneblade 65,- instead of 95,-.

After the changes GW made for internet sellers without a brick and mortar store they can now only offer a 10% discount, which isn't really worth it for me any more because I usually do not but in large quantities. Plus they moved to another city.

So GW sure ruined a good situation for me ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866663.page GMT
They used to sell 40K at a great discount (Imo). For example the Troops boxes cost 21,50 Euro instead of 30,-, the 20,- boxes cost 14, -, and a Baneblade 65,- instead of 95,-.

After the changes GW made for internet sellers without a brick and mortar store they can now only offer a 10% discount, which isn't really worth it for me any more because I usually do not but in large quantities. Plus they moved to another city.

So GW sure ruined a good situation for me [/quote]Wargame Specialist?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/866672.page GMT GW probably isn't evil, or malicious or even really clever (probably.) The company heads are merely ignorant of how markets and economics in general work.

It is extremely difficult to control distribution of products once they leave your company. Every store who thinks they can sell a few more boxes by offering 5% off the other guy's prices online will do so. Remove their ability to have a shopping cart, and they will put in an "additional items box" or a call in service. Disallow eBay? Shell companies start popping up. What we can see easily is that consumers and sellers both find remarkably clever ways to get around restrictions. As my friend Dan put it "That's what I like about humans: they have a way of making sh!t work."

However, more important is what we don't see. We don't see all the boxes and blisters that are not sold because some guy that would have started an IG army at 400$ for everything decided not to when it would cost 575$. Or the baneblade that doesn't get sold because 100$ at the local store is too much money for a model that will be used once a month. GW can't see the secondary armies that people almost built on a whim because they thought howling banshees were cool, but didn't because they couldn't easily get the models online without paying GW's stupidly expensive shipping on top of their dictated retail rates?

GW seems to be missing out on these concepts, which is not a shame limited to their company heads. Many companies such as Apple, and many politicians, have made the same mistakes, but not many companies come away from that error healthily without creating the iPod or something similar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867170.page GMT I think what GW does see is the need in most cases for an actual store to drive sales. In most cases (except CT apparently) GW product does not sell itself. It requires interaction and support that you can not get from an online store leaving the hobby starving for new blood. People need to see it get played in order to get interested which is why as outriders, Kommandos, and just people that like the hobby we spent a lot of time running intro games, demo's, and lending armies to new blood to get them interested. Those are the stores that are successful and have less stock stagnating on the shelves for years. This is probably where CT Gamers mention of the LGS is probably failing. Show the game and not just the models to get people interested...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867187.page GMT GW probably isn't evil, or malicious or even really clever (probably.) The company heads are merely ignorant of how markets and economics in general work.[/quote]
That is completely false. GW is perfectly aware that reduced sales requires a higher price to generate the same revenue and profit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867206.page GMT GW wouldn't care.

Also it is worth noting that shops don't sell games nearly so well as friends/family. (They also don't sell ideas as well as videogames or books or whatever.) I would be willing to bet a vast sum of money that far more players got into the wargamming hobby in general or into 40k game in particular by being introduced through friends and family than by stores.

Very few people wander into a store and decide that this game, completely different than every other board game they have played, with a rule book that runs more than most complete board games in general, requiring even more vastly expensive models to play, on top of that requiring either lots of space at home or a way to travel to a shop in order to spend hours painting and modeling before you get to spend hours playing a single game (all at the same time no less). For an example of how foriegn this is to people, try explaining 40k to 5 or 10 people at work, and pay attention to how hard it is to really grasp what you are talking about. Assuming you don't work in a game store, that is.

People get into wargaming through other things. Video games, RPGs, serious board games (Twilight Imperium, Settlers etc.) or friends showing them. The initial investment is just too far beyond what most people will try out. GW's failure lies in the fact that the more product there is out there in people's hands, the more likely it is that they will get others into the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867286.page GMT
While I will agree that friends/family do get many people into the hobby I personally have brought many people into the hobby at stores that are just walk ins. Your point of talking to co-workers is exactly correct but your off base about people walking into the store. The key to the store is in MOST cases the people already know what type of store they are walking into. That takes care of half of your overcoming objections. When they see people playing and ask a question about the game....voila....they are half sold.

Think about it...your buds did not start playing just because you play (although I am sure we would all like to have that kind of power over our friends hehe). You introduced them to it and they thought it was cool because of models, fluff, etc... You were the connecting point just like the brick and mortor store is if it has good foot traffic. The brick and mortor store however should see more numbers than you have freinds.

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867716.page GMT
If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.[/quote]

The traditional (non- electronic)Gaming stores are as a whole are a failing and antiquated business model. More stores come and go then stay open and prosper. Internet sales will eclipse and outlive gaming stores no matter how some try to fight it...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867724.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867729.page GMT
I would be willing to bet an equally large amount of money against you. I've seen first hand that there are more people who walk into a store having never seen it before and get an intro game and get into the hobby, than those who have been told by their friends . . . but ofcourse this also gets new blood in. GW works best by word of mouth advertising, it's free, and spreads quickly when children are involved. Especially when they are given a free cool miniature that they painted themselves to go and show all their friends, who then go and get their free miniature, and a free game . . . and suddenly you have a new bunch of gamers for your store, they go through the army buying, making, painting, through the beginner schemes, and get involved in shop tourneys . . . it's an amazingly good scheme GW has going on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867877.page GMT
Eternalwar]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/867919.page GMT AT ALL.
[/quote]

Here is a big problem with GW. If you call their sales staff and get a different rep they will all have different answers, kinda like the old rules lawyers thing. I have a few freinds that have started different stores and 2 years ago when they started the teir system was still there. Your level of retailer depended on how much you had in stock more than anything else. Problem was you had to have a starter section which included LOTR which does not do well in this area hehe.

[/quote]

Mostly correct. The part about online selling is that you cannot have an online shopping cart. This limits most stores to not selling online, but it is still possible to run adds online, and take orders by email and by phone, as Warstore and several others do.

The difference in the North America and European terms of sale is confusing: Europe has a tiered system now, that is based on what services you offer, and it affects the discount you buy at. North America has the same discount for all accounts, (45%). They have a tiered structure for GW support.

- Standard account: No support, free shipping at 400.00 (Pretty much standard in the game industry from any distributor. Amount for free shipping varies some)

-Stockist account: Carry the best selling plastic boxes and core sets. Free shipping, no minimum. Advertising in WD, and 600.00 a year in support for events.


-Partnership account: Carry most everything, have tables, run events, etc. Recieve copies of new codices, access to the preview models in black boxes, free advertising, 1800.00 per year in support. [/quote]


I just spoke with the NY Rep with Games Workshop yesterday about starting up with them mainly to do some online non shopping cart busniess and basically the guy Chris just laughed at me. He also explained to me that all new accounts are Stockists and never gave me a run down of Standard and Partnership. Mikhaila I know you run a B&M, so maybe you can answer his, how do you go about openning a Standard Account nowadays?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/876638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/876638.page GMT
While I will agree that friends/family do get many people into the hobby I personally have brought many people into the hobby at stores that are just walk ins. Your point of talking to co-workers is exactly correct but your off base about people walking into the store. The key to the store is in MOST cases the people already know what type of store they are walking into. That takes care of half of your overcoming objections. When they see people playing and ask a question about the game....voila....they are half sold.

Think about it...your buds did not start playing just because you play (although I am sure we would all like to have that kind of power over our friends hehe). You introduced them to it and they thought it was cool because of models, fluff, etc... You were the connecting point just like the brick and mortor store is if it has good foot traffic. The brick and mortor store however should see more numbers than you have freinds.

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.[/quote]

There is a vast difference in marketing strategy between "Control the entire supply chain from production to customer, and sell at higher margin at low volume" and "Allow third parties to sell, making lower margins at much higher volume." There are successful applications for both, but probably more epic failures on the former.

Also, everyone I know got into wargamming because their friends or family members play. Perhaps that is due to coming from more rural Pennsylvania, as opposed to a larger city like Philly or London. I got into the hobby because one of my dad's friends at work played and knew my dad liked military history, and invited us over for their weekly gaming sessions in their basement. My buddy Dan plays because I got into 40k after playing DoW, and we got excited about the back ground.

I don't doubt that some people wander into the store and see what's going on and decide they want to play. However, games that require both large amounts of money and other players are less attractive than other forms of entertainment.
Young players are going to have a hard time justifying paying 50$ for a tank when that same money buys a PS3 game or whatever. Combine that with needing to find opponants, and you have a bit of an issue.
Brick and mortar stores have in the past been good for that, that being bringing new players without friends or family who played into the fold. However, there are new and better methods of this. Video games like Dawn of War do a good job introducing gamers to the ideas and products. Online forums like Dakka help people find players and learn about the game. Stores like the Warstore or Maelstrom games help distribute products.

There is also a strong distinction between GW company stores, independant retailers with B&M stores, and clubs.
There is no reason why clubs should cease to be. It is probably easier to run and keep clubs in an online space than by posting listings in game stores. Hosting locations might be difficult to come by, but that is currently a problem in any area that doesn't have a large store that is willing to give you tables. Clubs already rent spaces and such to solve this problem.
The big difference between GW and independant retailers (and the reason I think GW stores are dragging the company down) is that independant retailers CAN introduce players to new games and miniature lines, but GW stores can't.
The GW store only lives off of GW merchandise sales, requiring higher margin items as well as consistent sales. They do not benefit from any online sales, they do not sell Magic or Yugioh or whatever to help pay the rent, they do not get Warmachine players, or micro armor, or Flames of War, or the other bajillion game's players showing up to get models and going "Huh, that looks cool, I wonder what that is for?"
The independant store has none of those limitations. Mikhaila's store has all sorts of great models and games available to browse and try out (I spent 2 hours there last time I popped down, and my wife didn't even complain.) We saw board games we might want to try, I saw models I thought about buying, as well as different paints and games. I was there for GW stuff, but I just as easily could have been trying to buy Warmachine or D&D or Settlers of Catan, and gotten interested in 40k. That wouldn't be an option in a GW store.
Likewise indie stores can sell online and use that added traffic and customer base to keep a steady sales base with a higher volume than they could otherwise. Not all stores are doing this yet, but those that are are increasingly profitable despite sharp discounts.

It is the GW company B&M stores that I think are killing the company. They are too specialized and need very high margins to survive, two traits that are killers for most retailers since the advent of the internet. GW would do well to recognize that moving large volumes of models is more likely to help their bottom line than limiting their availability. Most consumer goods companies have recognized this, and left the question of how to get the product to the customer up to retailers and third parties, to much success.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/877176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/877176.page GMT

I just spoke with the NY Rep with Games Workshop yesterday about starting up with them mainly to do some online non shopping cart busniess and basically the guy Chris just laughed at me. He also explained to me that all new accounts are Stockists and never gave me a run down of Standard and Partnership. Mikhaila I know you run a B&M, so maybe you can answer his, how do you go about openning a Standard Account nowadays?[/quote]

Basically, you open an account with GW. Then, based on what criteria you meet, they can upgrade you to stockist, and then partnership. Most sales reps won't talk about the partnership level account to new stores, as it involves carrying nearly all their product, having gaming space, running events, and a few other criteria. Too much for a new store to bite off, although I have seen stores go to partnership quite quickly.

The stockist account level is very much a no brainer. You only have to carry the best selling items, and promise to restock as you sell. You get prize support, quarterly, advertising in WD, and bitz and pieces of other support. Most important, you get free shipping with no minimum.

A non-stockist level account is mostly for say, a small hobby shop that just wants a little rack of some GW stuff on the wall, and only orders sporadically throughout the year.

The most important thing to opening a GW account (in the US): You must have a brick and mortar location, in an area zoned commercial and meet other requirements that show you are a business. They won't let you open an account if you are online only.

-If someone does want to open an account with GW, the person to talk to is John Smith. John used to be my sales rep before they moved him over to handling new accounts. Call the main office in Glen Burnie, ask to talk to John. Probably a phone number or email on their website. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/877661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/877661.page GMT UK, sells some of their items via eBay.

They also have a massive store with 70 tables, a bar and a restaraunt. It's the perfect place for a really awkward first date with the girl who agreed to go out with you out of pity.

Maelstrom Games - Huge discounts and beer. FETH YEAH![/quote]

First H.B.M.C.'s icon showed him to be in Oz. Now he is in the US, he is getting closer......
Are you emigrating to Maelstrom H' ?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/878772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/878772.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881687.page GMT GW might stop supplying people who they Identify as selling online. ( for what ever reason ... )

Who said sellers had to identify themselfs as the same people online as they buy from GW.

dont worry the sky will not fall down.[/quote]The GW sky has been falling for over a decade now. Seriously, it's been at least that long that people have been predicting GW's immnent demise. Ironicdote: 10 years ago went to a B&M in Myrtle Beach, SC. Guy was doing pretty well, decent store with plenty of product from other sources. Hardly seemed dependant on GW for rent money. Anyway, was firesalin all GW product as "teh sky! it is fellin!!". So I bought, great deals. Anyway, went back there about 6 months ago. Store went out of business. GW remains. Not tryin to predict or crystal ball; just sharing an ironicdote.

[quote=CT GAMER][quote=Fishboy]

If we all buy online then those stores go away, great events those stores host go away, clubs disapear, and market share drops for GW. GW's marketing concepts in most cases are extrememly flawed, however the ideal of real stores is very sound. Internet sales as a base of total or majority sales is a short term goal.[/quote]

The traditional (non- electronic)Gaming stores are as a whole are a failing and antiquated business model. More stores come and go then stay open and prosper. Internet sales will eclipse and outlive gaming stores no matter how some try to fight it...[/quote]With Vassal going going gone, it will be even harder to get games in at your FL online GS. Seriously, I have never lived in a city where there wasnt a gaming store with good terrain and good people (yes, I have been heinously blessed), so I do not imagine many people in the US running gaming groups out of their homes. Given my personal experience, I would call the demise of the B&M a Really Bad Thing. How many actually run groups out of their homes? Is that a lot more prevalent than I am thinking?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881762.page GMT GW employee, or like me spends long hours at the GW paint bar. Because he's completely accurate.

GW gets people hyped... that is just what they intend to do. And that is because they know the psychology of the average wargamer. When we get excited, we buy things, even if it means we eat top ramen for a few weeks, at least we have the new FW Warboss on bike and accompanying Nobs!

Part of this means getting people started, and like smoking - it's best started at a young age. (j/k).
So a kid comes in looking around for the first time and somebody offers him a free mini (just like crack, the first one is free), and a demo game run by someone who gets really descriptive and intense about a meeting between Captain Sicarius and a band of Ork Boys!

So the kid is thinking, 'wow! that was so cool! I want to do this all of the time.'

And thus, a new gamer was born. One who will likely come back in, possibly with friends and will buy codexes and models and glue and primer and tools, etc.

I've seen it work so well, that last year just before Christmas, a mom came in and bought an AoBR for both of her sons, as well as codexes, a Tyranid Battle Force, some SM stuff and a Realm of Battle!
She explained that her kids had gone into another GW store and had their demo game, she just drove an hour to another one in 18" snow so they wouldn't see her buy this stuff!

I asked her to adopt me.

As for the thread topic, just poke around on TMP or other genereic wargaming sites - the FLGS is a dying breed. Internet sales takes a lot of potential business from them. And in my opinion GW relies on the word of mouth, and getting people excited, and you can't really hook a new person from in front of a computer as you do walking into a store with a life size Blood Angel standing out front. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881773.page GMT GWs had paint bars anymore.

[quote]GW gets people hyped... that is just what they intend to do. And that is because they know the psychology of the average wargamer. When we get excited, we buy things, even if it means we eat top ramen for a few weeks, at least we have the new FW Warboss on bike and accompanying Nobs! [/quote]

Oh yeah, they love getting people hyped. They love it so much they won't tell gamers who paid to get into Games Day and their seminars a god-damned thing about upcoming releases or even what the next army after Space Wolves is. Or even what the Space Wolves release will entail. Or provide proof that they're even working on armies that people have requested info on for years and years.

Don't you have to, I dunno, tell people shit if you want to build hype? I know a brilliant way to create hype, post a picture of a portion of a finished DE sculpt on the website, like FW did with Hector Rex. Don't explain what it is or anything, just post a quarter of the model and let people wonder. Am I crazy or just stupid?

[quote]and a demo game run by someone who gets really descriptive and intense about a meeting between Captain Sicarius and a band of Ork Boys! [/quote]

I don't see how that doesn't just scare people away, but then again it's kids we're talking about, so maybe they like that.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881911.page GMT UK, sells some of their items via eBay.

They also have a massive store with 70 tables, a bar and a restaraunt. It's the perfect place for a really awkward first date with the girl who agreed to go out with you out of pity.

Maelstrom Games - Huge discounts and beer. FETH YEAH![/quote]

Dear god, this place sounds like some kind of wonderland . I can understand the attempt to break down the ebay reseller market, I for one don't buy things online that I can get from local stores. It's bad form and doesn't support the businesses that I go to to find new players and fun games. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/249219/881968.page GMT