http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net mc shooters..bs3? perhaps drop points off their physical stats S/T to give them +1 bs?

just from reading 40k books, and the codex..they are supposed to be uber hunters that preferr long range but arent very strong (compared to other races) so..why average to hit?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1137772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1137772.page GMT BS 4 after decades of training, and eldritch technologies that improve their accuracy. Aren't Tau only supposed to live 40 years or so? That could be how long a marine is just a scout...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1138608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1138608.page GMT
shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time.. besides i cant off the top of my head think of a fluff reason that space marines even like to shoot things from afar.. its always shoot till we are close enough to drench our power armor and chain blades in enemy blood (not that they havnt spent their entire lifetime in the pursuit of becoming more efficient killers..to include range..) so dont get me wrong i love space marines lol but for 10pts i think FWs are bit lame...alot of people think that the new codex will make them cheaper (yay squeeze in 1 more piece of something that i like) was just saying at current price id be content with something along the lines of my previous post..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139423.page GMT
Rules > Fluff ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139444.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139483.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139486.page GMT FW BS is a high 2, but crazy bionics and helmet optics that any guardsman would kill for (and some do) bring it up to 3. Why BS 4?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139596.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1139856.page GMT BS 4 after decades of training, and eldritch technologies that improve their accuracy. Aren't Tau only supposed to live 40 years or so? That could be how long a marine is just a scout...[/quote]

Humans are slow learners compared to Tau.

I don't agree with increasing the base BS but most Tau units are currently overpriced or under-equipped for the points, considering 5e codexes.

There is an argument that as Tau get experience and go up ranks their BS should increase rather than their WS, and their A should be applicable to shooting rather than hacking. That would be more fluffy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1143293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1143293.page GMT They are small and soft as it is.
BS4 would make them have equal BS to Marines (including chaos), Aspect warriors etc. Which IMO doesnt fit into the fluff right.

I do agree that they need some sort of boost, because atm most players are reluctant to field them.
A cheaper transport is top on my list of suggestions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1143315.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1143315.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144091.page GMT
shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time...[/quote]

To tag on this, anyone play Mass Effect? Maybe the Tau are like the Salarians.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144148.page GMT
shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time...[/quote]

To tag on this, anyone play Mass Effect? Maybe the Tau are like the Salarians.[/quote] in the fluff of the codex tau only sleep like 2-3 hours a day... so essentially if a tau lives 40 years, and a human sleep 8 hours a day.. tau effectively have an additional 10 years of life experience added on..so 50 years in human standard (kinda like dog years !) besidies...how old do IG really get? lol more meat for the grinder ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1144168.page GMT
This is coming from someone who played halo and cod4 with near max sensitivity too. Tau are simply too twitchy to accurately fire. I think they should drop their BS and let them get one more shot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1145963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1145963.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146001.page GMT
Seriously, if you guys haven't played Mass Effect, play it, check out a Salarian, and compare them to Tau.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146127.page GMT
I never thought of this before. Eldrad/Yriel as Spock/Kirk combo?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1146137.page GMT
Miles off since when have the Vulkans been evil piratical marauders like the Eldar? Or the Romulans completely pointless and redundant like the Dark Eldar (you don't get Dark Dark Elves in Warhammer so why in 40k?).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1152422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1152422.page GMT Id say the connection's strong enough for a bit of musing. Not that Im a trekky or anything, just that big Romulan ship in the new star trek movie reminded me a bit of something the dark eldar would cruise around in if they didn't mind a huge target profile. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153303.page GMT Id say the connection's strong enough for a bit of musing. Not that Im a trekky or anything, just that big Romulan ship in the new star trek movie reminded me a bit of something the dark eldar would cruise around in if they didn't mind a huge target profile. [/quote]
Some become pirates. 4e BGB had a kill team with Eldar Pirates. And generally Eldar favor a hit and run strategy - raids, I dare say. Dark Eldar are Eldar that are Dark. They aren't some completely different race - they came from the same place as the Eldar, but took a different path.

Rico.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153446.page GMT
It's all rather complicated now, since the history of both is rather clouded and murked. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153681.page GMT
Since rogue trader... So about 20 years so far... Try to keep up.

Dark Eldar make a mockery of Eldar the only reason Eldar don't act as the "dark" Eldar currently do is because Slaanesh would eat their souls if they did. So if there is a way for them to still act they way they did before the fall without Slaanesh eating their souls why don't they all do it?

The control the Eldar exert over their lives and their monstrous tendancies isn't out of some conception of guilt or good it is purely due to them having no choice or they die. Hence the Dark Eldar shouldn't possibly exist or all the Eldar should be Dark Eldar, either way they are completely redundant.

The common misconception from new hobbyists is that Eldar are the 40k version of High Elves when they were always the 40K version of Dark Elves. Hence Dark Eldar are totally redundant and pointless, it is like adding Dark Dark Elves to Warhammer...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153685.page GMT 40k version of High Elves when they were always the 40K version of Dark Elves. Hence Dark Eldar are totally redundant and pointless, it is like adding Dark Dark Elves to Warhammer...[/quote]
Please ignore this statement. It is quite incorrect in relevance to current background, and the background in general.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153694.page GMT
They've tried to fudge it since bringing in the Dark Eldar the Eldar codex before last they'd turned the Eldar into High Elves. However they realised their mistake and they've tried to bring it back a bit in the last codex. Expect them to return the Eldar to their initial state in the next codex as they slowly write out the completely pointless and redundant Dark Eldar...

Read Rogue Trader, 40k Companion and/or the first Eldar Codex and you'll see I'm right the Eldar are the 40k equivalent of Dark Elves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153704.page GMT WHFB Dark Elves admittedly, but I pay attention to small talk around the shop, but the Eldar aren't into the whole pirating others and such, but more about manipulating everyone else to their own ends, which isn't really malicious.

As far as the Eldar becoming more Grim Dark, have you read the other Codices lately? Everyone is taking a good injecting of Grim Dark as the Codices progress. As for the disolution of the Dark Eldar, I highly doubt it, and would be a little surprised.

But we're getting horribly off topic.... I mean REALLY off topic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1153734.page GMT
Good point well made

BS 4 firewarriors would be brilliant but they'd be just too good. However I don't see why they don't have BS6 fluff wise. I mean Sisters of battle have BS4 and they are women so I'd expect my BS to be at least 12 in comparison

I love the smell of feminism in the morning.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154854.page GMT BS 4 firewarriors would be overpowered.

A full squad of 12 FWs rapid firing some marines.

Currently at BS 3, that's 2.67 kills. At BS 4 it's 3.56 kills.

BS 4 gives the double FoF tactic a good chance at actually hurting a tac squad, rather than just making them more bald and angry.

One extra kill isn't going to tip any balance. Especially considering that FWs are widely considered underpowered.

Oh noes!! that makes it so that it only takes 1 Markerlight to boost to BS 5.

Considering the price of a markerlight and the fact that 1 more BS is only one more marine kill, all I have to say is, "big deal".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154866.page GMT BS 5.

Considering the price of a markerlight and the fact that 1 more BS is only one more marine kill, all I have to say is, "big deal".

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However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.

This is significant because the best way to get ML into the army is with Pathfinders and the minimum unt size is 4. Which on average would get you 2 Mls a turn, meaning Tau could field more smaller units of firewarriors.

It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too!

Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1154919.page GMT GW to fix it.

My point? The fluff supports BS3 Tau but not BS4 Tau. They lack depth perception, which is extremely important when trying to fire weapons at long range. No depth perception means no ability to properly judge range or orientation to non-linear paths, such as aiming a rifle or tracking a target. So a Tau without a helmet would probably be BS2 or even BS1! But they have a whole slew of advanced tech at hand so it helps them cope and gives them BS3. Those with BS4 either have even more tech and/or have experience, in the same way as Guard Vets are BS4 to the regular Guard's BS3.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155086.page GMT
I disagree with making the BS 4 but if GW wanted to do it, all they need do is write some fluff saying all Fire Warriors now have a targetting array in their helmet. Bingo! BS=4.

Also, the fluff actually says Tau eyes focus more slowly than human. This doesn't matter much for distance shooting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155101.page GMT
I would argue that Tau are by far the weakest army in the game. Certainly for Tournament builds. They're great if you know what you are fighting but really suffer if you try to make them jack of all trades as they are sio reliant on fire power. Especially as every new codex seems to give a new army a way of assaulting you on turn 1 (or just massacring all your FWs and broadsides with JotWW Runepriests in drop pods)...

Compare with Orks were you can just spam boyz and cut through nearly any army or IG who can take umpteen Battlecannons and lay waste to hordes and MEQs alike...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155155.page GMT GW to fix it.

My point? The fluff supports BS3 Tau but not BS4 Tau. They lack depth perception, which is extremely important when trying to fire weapons at long range. No depth perception means no ability to properly judge range or orientation to non-linear paths, such as aiming a rifle or tracking a target. So a Tau without a helmet would probably be BS2 or even BS1! But they have a whole slew of advanced tech at hand so it helps them cope and gives them BS3. Those with BS4 either have even more tech and/or have experience, in the same way as Guard Vets are BS4 to the regular Guard's BS3.[/quote]

ok, new codex have made troop choices cheaper, id be happy w/ 8pts ea instead of 10 ea.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=FlingitNow]
However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.

This is significant because the best way to get ML into the army is with Pathfinders and the minimum unt size is 4. Which on average would get you 2 Mls a turn, meaning Tau could field more smaller units of firewarriors.

It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too!

Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...[/quote]

my fire warriors rarely leave the transport, so its kind of moot point for me personally.
I already use the marklights to strip cover/leadership depending on what im firing at.. oo i can make you run? o my weapons already pop their armor saves? no point increasing bs, just take away cover.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155245.page GMT
How? No marker light effect will help you make a unit run.

Ok you already use ML for that purpose then you're firing at BS3 or you only ever fire at vehicles?

Imagine a Unit or Helios firing at Space marines in cover with 2 MLs. If the unit has BS4 already you could probably use both to strip cover to 6+, but at BS3 you are better of suing at least one to make BS4 and then the other one can only change cover to 5+...

Granted when you're pie plating that boyz mob you are already using MLs for cover rather than BS but again the Hammerhead is already at BS4. Likewise Your Broadsides are at BS over 4 already due to twinlinked.

But a FW with BS4 would mean you'd start using them outside the Devilfish. However the point is not the effect on the FW but more the impact on the suits which are already a powerful unit. Also Tau Gunlines would be awesome even when everyone can turn 2 charge because that just puts everyone in rapidfire range for that one turn. Imagine 60 FW firing 2 shots at BS4 before you even use any marker lights!?!?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155268.page GMT
GW has this force chart that must be followed, why not make it useful? It sucks that my elite choices are needed to take out troop choices from any other army I play and my troop choices sit on the bench the whole game (FWs sit in the fish and fly around).

I find the markerlight thing a non-issue. As I've said before, it's really sad that the entire affectiveness of your troops is dependant upon making 4+ rolls to drop markerlight tokens on other units. Ok, I have 8 markerlights from my pathfinder squad; I hit with 3 or 4 then I can use the different effects such as the BS bump which entails more rolling of dice...etc.

If you're going to use markerlights, why not make them auto hits with limited frequency? Seriously, I can hit anything with a laserpointer.

Why all the rolling when IG just have to roll once for their orders to work at better than a 4+?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155321.page GMT
How? No marker light effect will help you make a unit run.

Granted when you're pie plating that boyz mob you are already using MLs for cover rather than BS but again the Hammerhead is already at BS4. Likewise Your Broadsides are at BS over 4 already due to twinlinked.

But a FW with BS4 would mean you'd start using them outside the Devilfish. However the point is not the effect on the FW but more the impact on the suits which are already a powerful unit. Also Tau Gunlines would be awesome even when everyone can turn 2 charge because that just puts everyone in rapidfire range for that one turn. Imagine 60 FW firing 2 shots at BS4 before you even use any marker lights!?!?[/quote]

Pie plate, cover is determined from the center of the blast to any target it hits... so even if your getting 4+ cover from a direct fire from the hammer head, youd most likely get no cover from a blast.

marklight, -1 leadership is an option. and id rather use marklights on crisis suits than on the hammerhead thats pie plating... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155399.page GMT
marklight, -1 leadership is an option. and id rather use marklights on crisis suits than on the hammerhead thats pie plating... [/quote]

Wrong on both counts. Cover is still determined from the direction of the firer for the pie-plate. And -1 leadership is not an option if you've been using that you've been cheating. You can't just make up options! Read the options on page 29 of the codex and none of them effect leadership on morale checks.

Seriously these are pretty basic rules that you seem to have no-clue about.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155458.page GMT However the impact of that would be big on how the Tau play (particularly FoF or Gunline). It means one Tau squad can expect to have a real chance of wiping out a Spacemarine Combat squad and 2 combining will generally kill about 9 marines requiring only 2 ML rather than 4.
[/quote]

Ok, so at BS 3, 12 rapid firing FWs kill 2.7 marines. 24 Str 5 shots, killing 2.7 marines. 120 points to kill 47, when the ones shooting are supposed to be an exclusively ranged army.

Just to put it in perspective, 120 points of marines (7.5 marines), end up killing 3.33 Tau, or 33 points of Tau. So Tau have an slight advantage (wow 7.8% more efficient...), this is the only place they shine in. Everyone knows FWs die like gretchins in CC...

Marines get heavy weapons in the squads
Marines get saves against: Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons, Gauss Cannons, Gauss Blasters, Psycannons, etc...
Marines have higher WS, BS, S, T, I, Sv and Ld.

Marines are the epitome of efficiency, all the dakka you get in a little 16 point package (15 if you're a Space Puppy).

There's nothing wrong with a ranged specialty army that actually does well at range.

Don't even get me started on Deathguard

[quote=FlingitNow]
It would also mean the same for the suites and this is where the really big difference would be felt. They'd be a lot more independant. Deathrains could have flamers and still hit 8 out of 9 shots with the TL Missile pods. Shas'Els would be BS5 anyway again menaing you can save points on TA. The Hammerhead would have BS5 as standard! Broadsides would hit 8 out of 9 times as standard too![/quote]

Again.. shooty army is supposed to be shooty.
I don't like the idea of a BS 5 Railhead, so they can just remove the Targeting Array, but I am fine with TL BS 4 rails on the Broadsides. It's not hard to get cover from slow-moving Broadsides. Tau don't have Fast skimmers with Multimeltas, so aside from Railheads and Broadsides, there's really nothing.

[quote=FlingitNow]Due to this Marker lights could be used to either help your firewarriors completely pummel a unit or help you Suites/Railheads ignore cover saves! Or destroy leadership for pinning, they'd be used far less for BS increases. This owuld make them far more useful as the BS increase is the first thing you have to use them for generally making that side of them almost redundant means you could pretty much strip cover from any unit you were shooting at...[/quote]

So you sound like you have trouble with Tau. I have 4 armies; Dark Eldar, GKs, Necrons and Tau. Never played Tau with Tau, but none of my other three armies even sweat Tau. I'm not that good of a player, so that makes me think they need a boost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155583.page GMT
I use Tau! I think they are pretty much the weakest army out there. Primarily because they are shooty and 40K is so assault biased. I just think BS4 FW and Railheads with BS5 (take away the TA and you can just add it for 5 points, which you ALWAYS would) is too much.

Granted the boost to the FW would be more marginal but the knock on effect on the suites would be pretty huge. I agree Tau need a boost, for my oppinion is that they are poor when asked to be an all takers army (look at the first post on this page). Though I think they are very efficient if geared to take on a specific army (nicely fitting in with the fluff).

So maybe some sort of multi TA than you buy for say 20 points and if your FW squad numbers 7 or more they fire at BS4 (so you wouldn't get the knock on effect on the suites).

Or (maybe even also) drop the Tau points to 8 or 9. I mean a sister of battle is only 1 point more is just as good at shooting, better armour, better leadership, better assault and has faith points which are better than MLs. That is just plain wrong!

Another option is you can chosse your weapon fit to suite opponent/mission. You can choose a standard fit Crisis for say 60 points and it has 3 or 4 options you can choose after rolling for mission and deployment to show how the Tau select weapons fit for purpose.

I don't think any of these would OP Tau or throw them out of balance and all would fit in nicely with the fluff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155639.page GMT
As for fluff not mattering, I guess you're right. But then GW could also say that IG Flak armor is actually a lot more rugged these days thanks to new manufacturing techniques and now gives all Guardsmen a 3+ armor save, and if you have a Priest they have been blessed and confer a 4+ Invulnerable save.

I mean, if we want to just start making stuff up, we CAN, but then things will get even more ridiculous than they are NOW with what fluff ALREADY exists.

Bolter rounds are now packed with more W.I.N. explosives and ball bearings. They are R36" S5 AP4 Small Blast, Rapid Fire. They also have the option to use F.L.A.M.E. rounds, which are S4 AP5 Sh2 Template.

Eldar have made recent advancements as well. All Shuriken weapons have AP2 Sh2 and strike all enemy models in a straight line from the firer to the weapon's maximum range. A wounded target that fails its saves is removed from the table and counts 2D6 Kill Points.

Orks have seen a recent explosion of population. All Ork Infantry models are half cost.

As for how I would handle Tau; make Firewarriors and Kroot cheaper. Fix their cloak thing by either getting rid of it, or make it ridiculous points (roaming 4+ cover save? Not exceptable), 50pts or something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155800.page GMT DP should be more points. 50 is too much given they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away, 15-20 is about right.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1155918.page GMT
.[/quote]

You guess wrong. I was on my house rifle team at school and my university archery team, and I have shot various types pistols and rifles for fun.

If you look at optical physics, you will see that the farther away a target is, the less effort it takes to focus on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1156226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1156226.page GMT
Bump BS up to a base 4 and ditch the TA entirely from the codex. OR

Make another drone that affects FW's, a targetting array drone that links up with the squade they're attached to and provides a +1 bump in BS; make it cost 15-20pts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1156276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1156276.page GMT
[quote=agnosto]Bump BS up to a base 4 and ditch the TA entirely from the codex. OR
Make another drone that affects FW's, a targetting array drone that links up with the squade they're attached to and provides a +1 bump in BS; make it cost 15-20pts.[/quote]Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.

[quote=FlingitNow]Yeah DP should be more points. 50 is too much given they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away, 15-20 is about right.[/quote]I would completely disagree with that pricing. Extra Armor used to be about that price range, I think it still is... And so what "...they only work if the enemy is more than 12" away..." That's how far the vast majority of attacks against them will be taken from! That would be like saying "Lasguns and First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! are too effective at 12 inches." I would more realistically suggest the whole thing be done away with and they get something akin to smoke-launchers. Sorry, but it's a ridiculously good option, especially for under 40pts. Give anything else a permanent 4+ Cover Save against ranged weapons (>12" away), and people would cry bloody murder! Not that I don't think GW would make this a standard free upgrade, but I still won't like it.

Tau aren't a bad army, they're just not an easy army, which isn't a bad thing! Each of their options are strong when used correctly, or even just "averagely," and their specialist weapons rock socks! I watch a lot of Tau players and they make a lot of mistakes that the Guard learned long ago. The biggest being that you're going to lose models! Now I am not saying they are not without faults! Their biggest and the one I would say is the only big thing to fix next to the bugs things they have, is the price of Fire Warriors. If Guardsmen are 5pts, then i would say a Fire Warrior is forth:

-1pt for inferior Hand to Hand ability
+2 for the Armor
+2 for the increased weapon Strength
+1 for the superior weapon AP

So, around 9pts for a Fire Warrior.

Proposal : Base Squad of four plus the Sergeant, 50pts and +9pts per additional Fire Warrior. So Squad of 12? : 50pts+(7)9pts=113pts

The base squad is a bit expensive per model, which encourages larger squads (I said around 9pts for a Fire Warrior, not "9pts for a Fire Warrior", and stops them from being too cheap.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157398.page GMT
Nah 50 points is still way too much for a DP. They are useless against Meltas which are your biggest threat (Lascannons for example only have 11% chancwe of taking out an Hammerhead if they hit, so an IG LC has less than a 6% chance of hurting the Hammerhead without a DP).

A DP on a Piranha for instance is totally useless for them 5 points is too much...

I'd agree with a FW being about 9 points but the unit should start at 6 men not five. So a Shas'ui plus 5 Shas'la for 60 points, then 9 points for every Shas'la after that would be fine and about right.

However this is just plain wrong:

[quote]Guardsmen with R24 S3 AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights. [/quote]

Reasons this is wrong, Guardsmen pay 10 points for plus 0.5BS. However a Guardsman is already HALF the points of a FW so to improve them should cost more as they are already under priced. Though I must admit I'm not sure which upgrade you are counting for 10 points?

Also a Guardsman is much better in CC because of initiative and the ability to combine squads. This gives them 2 advantages. Firstly they are far less likely to be sweeping advanced and 2 they can congregate in large enough numbers to put off smaller units assaulting them. 30 Guardsmen is about the price of 12 kitted out FW and they would nail then in CC and probably do just as well at range too.

Also the 20 Combined TA for the FW would be reliant on the squad numbering 7 or more so as you lost numbers you'd lose the bonus so about 20 points I think is bang on for my suggestion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157851.page GMT
I am not talking about the current Guardsmen, but the same edition Guardsmen as Tau, the 6ppm ones which were FAR from under priced. Now they are a little under priced, which tends to look just as bad as being WAY under priced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157929.page GMT
My point was firing Lascannons at them is pretty pointless anyway. The 4+ save doesn't stop everything it just stops half of things from more than 12" which to be honest the Vehicle as a fair chance of getting a cover save from anyway... Lets be honest here the point is that DPs in general only help you against weapons that aren't really much of a threat anyway. The weapons that will turn your Hammerhead into a paperweight are totally unaffected by the DPs. The vaste majority of things that are a threat to the hammerhead ignore the DP so is it really that good?

Tau are pretty much the weakest army out there and this is their one real advantage over everyone else why take it away? SMs can assault 44" in turn one I'd say that was far more useful and cheesy than a DP!

Lashes and Plague Marines are also far more cheesy. IG first turn assaulting with Vendettas like with the SM first turn assault can pretty much gaurantee the Tau player is stuffed or that his DPs are useless by giving everyone meltas...

I'll tell you what is actually under priced: Sisters of battle. For 1 point more than Tau you get:

The same shooting capability (-1S but +1BS) but at a slightly lower range.

3+ Armour save compared to 4+

Vastely superior CC ability

The ability to use faith points which are better than Marker lights

All for 1 point!!! Madness. I don't think IG are particualrly under priced compared with say Orks or most things. But FWs are over priced, DPs are under priced but don't turn Railheads into the all conquering vehicles you are trying to make them out to be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1157955.page GMT FW is probably about right -- I would argue 8 on the basis that the armour value is not worth that much when there are plenty of cover saves for everyone.

However cheaper FW are not what is needed. We need more effective FW. My favourite idea is to give the pulse rifle a rapid fire range of 15 inches. That would give the FW a much better battlefield role without any complex adjustments to points, special rules for H2H defence and so on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158033.page GMT AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.[/quote]

Seriously, we're comparing apples and oranges here. Most armies have a wide selection of troop choices compared to tau that help to overcome whatever difficulties they have. Tau have no compensation for lacking in close combat.

Yes, we can shoot but we do it poorly compared to other armies with higher BS, orders, and tactics.

Markerlights are useful but not a gaurantee if you roll badly.

The DP is nice but then we only have 2 kinds of tanks to use it on ('fish and 'heads), IG has how many tanks and how much cheaper than the Tau? I would love to be able to field an executioner (?), I love the massive amounts of small templates they can generate.

IG has heavy weapons teams with mortars and other crowd control weapons, access to close combat goodness that includes power weapons, the list goes on. Tau have Kroot which have no way to really take it to a marine; heck giving a shaper a powerklaw would be fantastic and I'd never gripe again about close combat.

The problem with the current iteration of the Tau is that they are not quite good at anything. They have nice weapons but a poor BS so miss 1/2 the time or more and powerful weapons in a game all about coversaves is useless. I've seen guard units do more damage than a FW unit just based upon the volume of fire being generated. We have the kroot as our close combat specialist but they don't have any options that help them with heavily armored opponents and have no save whatsoever (don't even try the 6+ the shaper can give for +1pt per model).

Meh.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158175.page GMT
I have to agree with everthing you've just said ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158270.page GMT AP- Rapid Fire lasguns paid 10 points a squad for +0.5BS. Tau with R30 S5 AP5 Rapid Fire, Pulse Rifles should have to pay at least 25+pts for a whole BS point. Guardsmen are also pathetic in assault (barely better than Tau, on par if not inferior once you consider the Tau's 4+ armor save to Guard's 5+), come in smaller units, have an inferior save against projectiles, and can't use marker-lights.[/quote]
Seriously, we're comparing apples and oranges here. Most armies have a wide selection of troop choices compared to tau that help to overcome whatever difficulties they have. Tau have no compensation for lacking in close combat.
Yes, we can shoot but we do it poorly compared to other armies with higher BS, orders, and tactics.
Markerlights are useful but not a gaurantee if you roll badly.
The DP is nice but then we only have 2 kinds of tanks to use it on ('fish and 'heads), IG has how many tanks and how much cheaper than the Tau? I would love to be able to field an executioner (?), I love the massive amounts of small templates they can generate.
IG has heavy weapons teams with mortars and other crowd control weapons, access to close combat goodness that includes power weapons, the list goes on. Tau have Kroot which have no way to really take it to a marine; heck giving a shaper a powerklaw would be fantastic and I'd never gripe again about close combat.
The problem with the current iteration of the Tau is that they are not quite good at anything. They have nice weapons but a poor BS so miss 1/2 the time or more and powerful weapons in a game all about coversaves is useless. I've seen guard units do more damage than a FW unit just based upon the volume of fire being generated. We have the kroot as our close combat specialist but they don't have any options that help them with heavily armored opponents and have no save whatsoever (don't even try the 6+ the shaper can give for +1pt per model).
Meh.[/quote]
If by apples to oranges you mean tangerines to oranges, than you're probably correct. What access Guard has to hand-to-hand weapons is relatively negligible, though quite more than Tau, but that's like tossing a stone instead of a small boulder at Hoover Dam. It does SOMETHING, but I don't think anyone is going to much worry except for your sanity. In both cases.

Tau and Guard have suffered the same problems, almost at parallel. As for DP?s (I am not a fan of acronyms when the full name is never given, even if I know what you mean), if they are so useless, and Lascannons so pitiful against them (which they aren't, and you know you are a fool for saying that or are completely detached from reality) and mean nothing against meltaguns (which are the only two scenarios you seem to think exist), then it wouldn't be a big deal to just get rid of DPs or propose the Hammerheads and Devilfish should just always get a 4+ save at all times against everything? It's known at cyclical logic, and it's rather foolish. If you have nothing to fear then you don't need it, then why defend it so vigorously?

As a Tau player I would always want that 4+ save against Lascannons if I could, and as a Guard player I would always want them to NOT have that 4+ save. So by that rather basic fair logic, the DP is worth something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158716.page GMT
Tau and Guard have suffered the same problems, almost at parallel. As for DP?s (I am not a fan of acronyms when the full name is never given, even if I know what you mean), if they are so useless, and Lascannons so pitiful against them (which they aren't, and you know you are a fool for saying that or are completely detached from reality) and mean nothing against meltaguns (which are the only two scenarios you seem to think exist), then it wouldn't be a big deal to just get rid of DPs or propose the Hammerheads and Devilfish should just always get a 4+ save at all times against everything? It's known at cyclical logic, and it's rather foolish. If you have nothing to fear then you don't need it, then why defend it so vigorously?

As a Tau player I would always want that 4+ save against Lascannons if I could, and as a Guard player I would always want them to NOT have that 4+ save. So by that rather basic fair logic, the DP is worth something.[/quote]

Regarding close combat abilities; IG something is much better than the Tau nothing. I would much more prefer some ability to take action in close combat over the inability to do anything. As I mentioned before, Kroot are barely useful without a power weapon option.

Most of your second paragraph had nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted; perhaps you meant to infer that some other poster is "detached from reality" (passive agressive much?). The only thing I mentioned regarding DPs was regarding the sparse variety of Tau mechanized units versus other armies. Tau are only able to field a maximum of 3 different types of tank, 1 fast (piranha), 1 heavy (hammerhead), and 1 transport (devilfish); please note that for functional gaming, a Skyray is nearly worthless so I left it out. I would love for Tau to have cheap transport such as Rhinos or heavy tanks such as Land Raiders but we don't so disruption pods are what we have. Sure, I get a hammerhead for 150+ points that will probably beat a land raider but it's a paper lion with 13 front armor; 1 point makes a large difference especially considering marine and IG tanks have several weapons systems available.

Yes, we would all like to have a 4+ save against everything; I suppose that's why GW made it so easy in the latest rules to acquire just that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1158756.page GMT IG something is much better than the Tau nothing. I would much more prefer some ability to take action in close combat over the inability to do anything. As I mentioned before, Kroot are barely useful without a power weapon option.

Most of your second paragraph had nothing whatsoever to do with anything I posted; perhaps you meant to infer that some other poster is "detached from reality" (passive agressive much?). The only thing I mentioned regarding DPs was regarding the sparse variety of Tau mechanized units versus other armies. Tau are only able to field a maximum of 3 different types of tank, 1 fast (piranha), 1 heavy (hammerhead), and 1 transport (devilfish); please note that for functional gaming, a Skyray is nearly worthless so I left it out. I would love for Tau to have cheap transport such as Rhinos or heavy tanks such as Land Raiders but we don't so disruption pods are what we have. Sure, I get a hammerhead for 150+ points that will probably beat a land raider but it's a paper lion with 13 front armor; 1 point makes a large difference especially considering marine and IG tanks have several weapons systems available.

Yes, we would all like to have a 4+ save against everything; I suppose that's why GW made it so easy in the latest rules to acquire just that.[/quote]For a relativistic statement you need context. In general, Guard and Tau are extremely similar in close combat vs. just about anything else. Now, fighting each other hand to hand, well they're almost evenly matched. I am, of course, talking Guardsmen v. Firewarriors. Yes, Guard squads can pick up a power weapon for their sergeant, but for 10pts with WS, S, and T value of three, not much compared to Space Marines or even Eldar Guardians, just basic really. So for 10pts, in my long experience, unless you plan on putting them in a fight with Space Marines, they are a little over priced, and you're better served by buying more Guardsmen (example, five Sgt.s buying power weapons is equal to another squad of Guardsmen).

And Tau do have close-combat options: Kroot and Crisis Suits. Kroot have their problems, duh! But if you're proposing rules, fix them, they're your close combat specialists, which fits the fluff, not the Fire Warriors, which greatly disdain hand to hand combat and aren't supposed to be very good at it anyhow. Crisis suits come in with their own pros and cons, but I have seen them do generally well against Guardsmen and Marines (save against Power Fists, but nothing stands up well against those so it's a wash).

As for DPs; if it didn't seem like it was addressed to you is because it wasn't, I meant none of those things towards you. As for "passive aggressive," no, that was just regular "civil aggressive" and I don't particularly care who knows that I use it when I feel it is applicable, so please keep your own passive aggressive comments about "passive aggressive" comments to yourself. At least I was not being hypocritical (I say in a "civil aggressive" manner).

This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159122.page GMT



[quote=Skinnattittar]For a relativistic statement you need context. In general, Guard and Tau are extremely similar in close combat vs. just about anything else. Now, fighting each other hand to hand, well they're almost evenly matched. I am, of course, talking Guardsmen v. Firewarriors. Yes, Guard squads can pick up a power weapon for their sergeant, but for 10pts with WS, S, and T value of three, not much compared to Space Marines or even Eldar Guardians, just basic really. So for 10pts, in my long experience, unless you plan on putting them in a fight with Space Marines, they are a little over priced, and you're better served by buying more Guardsmen (example, five Sgt.s buying power weapons is equal to another squad of Guardsmen).[/quote]

Yes, I think we can agree that firewarriors, in their current iteration are slightly overpriced.



[quote=Skinnattittar]And Tau do have close-combat options: Kroot and Crisis Suits. Kroot have their problems, duh! But if you're proposing rules, fix them, they're your close combat specialists, which fits the fluff, not the Fire Warriors, which greatly disdain hand to hand combat and aren't supposed to be very good at it anyhow. Crisis suits come in with their own pros and cons, but I have seen them do generally well against Guardsmen and Marines (save against Power Fists, but nothing stands up well against those so it's a wash).[/quote]

In a previous post, I did offer a solution to the Kroot by offering a power weapon upgrade to the shaper. Seems fair to me and not over powering and I did mention that Kroot are the Tau close combat specialists so no argument there either. Crisis suits have great strength but no close combat ability, doesn't make sense; it makes more sense for them to have a 4 strength and a 5 toughness instead of vice versa.


[quote=Skinnattittar]As for DPs; if it didn't seem like it was addressed to you is because it wasn't, I meant none of those things towards you. As for "passive aggressive," no, that was just regular "civil aggressive" and I don't particularly care who knows that I use it when I feel it is applicable, so please keep your own passive aggressive comments about "passive aggressive" comments to yourself. At least I was not being hypocritical (I say in a "civil aggressive" manner).[/quote]

If you will read your post, you only quoted me so I made the reasonable conclusion that the comments were addressed to myself. If you were speaking to someone else, I had no way of knowing. From the frequence of it in your post, I can see that you have taken umbrage with my statement that you were being passive aggressive. Please be assured that it was in response to your comment regarding being "detached from reality" which seemed to be directed at me. You may dislike acronyms, I dislike ambiguity as much and feel that the whole misunderstanding could have been avoided if you had directed your comments specifically to your intended target. I; however, would be interested to know how I acted the hypocrite, alas we shall never know. And here you even admit to being agressive first which leads us to our final point...

[quote=Skinnattittar]This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day![/quote]

What a non sequitur; if you didn't wish to further participate in the conversation you could have simply said nothing, instead you have ungraciously bowed out and determined that you should get a parting shot. Well done sir and the uncalled for threat, unless some miscreant has perpetrated some malicious contact, icing on the cake. I hope your day is infinitely more pleasant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159248.page GMT
[quote=Skinnattittar]This thread had devolved into a child's bickering match. I am excusing myself from it before it becomes un-civil. Any reasonable comments anyone has, they are welcome to PM them to me. But please refrain from trying to harass me. I will read you PM, but this is your warning, I will not reply and simply follow Dakka guidelines for dealing with harassment (yes, I will tattle on you, I'm getting too old to deal with childish harassment). This paragraph is not necessarily directed at anyone. Thank you for calling and have a nice day![/quote]

What a non sequitur; if you didn't wish to further participate in the conversation you could have simply said nothing, instead you have ungraciously bowed out and determined that you should get a parting shot. Well done sir and the uncalled for threat, unless some miscreant has perpetrated some malicious contact, icing on the cake. I hope your day is infinitely more pleasant.[/quote]


LoL well played sir, well played]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1159424.page GMT I've never heard of that.
Where does it say that?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1160043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1160043.page GMT
But you are the only one that has been aggressive in anyway.

I pointed out that Lascannons have a very small chance of doing damage against a Hammerhead so getting a 4+ save against them is beneficial but not game changing.

Having it against Brightlances is useful but due to Eldar mobility again getting within 12" shouldn't be a problem for them. Against melta weapons or CC (the 2 things that actually take out Hammerheads 90% of the time) the DP is useless.

Again orbital bombardment again it is very useful but not game winning. Your hatred of the DP seems somewhat bizarre as whilst it is under priced it is not a huge advantage when you consider how often tanks get cover saves anyway, it just allows the Tau player to be more aggressive in his deployment. Take it away and with the Multitrakwer the Tau player could just as easily deploy it in cover and move 12" into an appropriate firing position in turn 1 and still fire...

They are useful and give Tau the ability to keep their devilfish in the game for scoring later on. REmember compare with the Eldar shoving 5 DAs in all their vehicles and making them scoring means they can often have 6 scoring units all with heavy firepower. The Devilfish has little firepower so to use this tactic we are going to have far less scoring units as we have to spend points on firepower elsewhere. The Serpents get their energy shield we get the DP which is probably better but balanced out by the fact we'd have far fewer scoring units and the scoring units themselves aren't a threat...

To claim that Guard are no better in combat than FWs is just laughable. Ignoring the fact you can take power weapons, fists, flamers etc to help you in an assault you get twice as many attacks at higher weapon skill. Guardsmen can also throw weight of numbers into an assault by grouping their squads. 10 assault marines might think twice about assaulting 40 guardsmen particularly if their is a fist or 2 in there, where as just 5 assault marines would easily dispatch 12 Firewarriors no matter how they were tooled up... Heck 5 CC scouts would wipe them out!

So inconclusion the DP isn't the game winner you are making out but gives the Tau a unique bit of wargear to help out the one ace they have in the Hammerhead. IG have plenty of better options than Tau and are one of the strongest armies in the game, where as the Tau are pretty much the weakest.
I really don't think there is any need for threats or agression OK we disagree, no need for anyone to get upset about it. It's only a game not life or death (like say football )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1160814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1160814.page GMT I've never heard of that.
Where does it say that?
[/quote]

It is hinted at in a couple of sources. It's a sort of general meme to excuse the Tau only being BS3 when realistically a hunter species who train relentlessly for war, totally ignoring H2H, and have the best ranged weapon technology in the galaxy might logically be BS4.

Don't worry about it. The pulse rifle being S5 compensates.

Anyway, back on topic.

Kroot will never be very good at H2H without major changes such as equipping them with power weapons and jump packs. This would spoil the flavour of the Tau army and would result in Tau players taking masses of Ork style Kroot hordes.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161819.page GMT
Jack

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161942.page GMT op....maybe make krootox bites rending attacks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1161971.page GMT
Secondly, bumping their BS to 4 wouldn't actually help that much is increasing the effectiveness of pulse rifles by 16.6% really going to save the day? No. The problem with firewarriors isn't that they're no good at shooting its that they end up in hand to hand, lose combat, get run down and all die. (AKA Necron warrior syndrome).

So what you actually want to do is stop whining about wanting to have BS4 and ask GW for something useful like the ability to sacrifice a drone in the unit to get +2 to the initaitive roll to escape combat or something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162040.page GMT str 5, rapid fire weapons is pretty powerful. But give em BS4? holy crap! They'd mow down marines like nothin!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162050.page GMT
Secondly, bumping their BS to 4 wouldn't actually help that much is increasing the effectiveness of pulse rifles by 16.6% really going to save the day? No. The problem with firewarriors isn't that they're no good at shooting its that they end up in hand to hand, lose combat, get run down and all die. (AKA Necron warrior syndrome).

So what you actually want to do is stop whining about wanting to have BS4 and ask GW for something useful like the ability to sacrifice a drone in the unit to get +2 to the initaitive roll to escape combat or something.[/quote]

Give them all "hit and run"?

Fits the "hunter" fluff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1162098.page GMT str 5, rapid fire weapons is pretty powerful. But give em BS4? holy crap! They'd mow down marines like nothin![/quote]

Mow down marines like nothing? Where are you getting your data from? Did you see my mathhammer a on the first page?

[quote=kuro_khan]
I doubt BS 4 firewarriors would be overpowered.

A full squad of 12 FWs rapid firing some marines.

Currently at BS 3, that's 2.67 kills. At BS 4 it's 3.56 kills.

BS 4 gives the double FoF tactic a good chance at actually hurting a tac squad, rather than just making them more bald and angry.

One extra kill isn't going to tip any balance. Especially considering that FWs are widely considered underpowered.

Oh noes!! that makes it so that it only takes 1 Markerlight to boost to BS 5.

Considering the price of a markerlight and the fact that 1 more BS is only one more marine kill, all I have to say is, "big deal".
[/quote]

I don't complain when a 10-man squad of marines completely mow down my Dark Eldar squad.
Marines are twice as much, true, but they are three times more effective in a gun battle, 150% more efficient as well, when taking into account point costs.

Dark Eldar have the ability to omgwtfbbq MEQs with Ap 2 weaponry, so I think it's fair.

But what do Tau have vs Marines?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163033.page GMT
Plasma rifles which at BS4 would be pretty horrific. I've seen a squad of 2 Brightwinds (admitted at BS5 from ML hits) take out 4 Terminators that were body guarding Marneas and wound Marneas as well! Leaving Calgar at my mercy to blow him to bits the following turn.

THat one point extra BS would have 2 major effects. It would mean the Tau player could lay serious fire down on Space marines without needing Markerlights (which means he can attack more squads at a time). Or he can blow marines apart in cover as he'll need fewer marker light hits to get him up to BS5 and he can use the others to strip cover saves...

Whilst BS4 FW wouldn't be aver powered, BS4 Crisis suits would be...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163070.page GMT WS 4, Str 4, hidden powerfists or ANY power weapons to speak of...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163252.page GMT
I'm saying if you make all Tau BS4 or better they'd be massively OP and no one would stand a chance against their guns...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163417.page GMT
fire warriors should be 9pts (or 8 if you are feeling generous, also without having to spend so many points at lead/bonding them, hopefully)

Tau vehicles are very expensive, too, for what they can do.

Special characters could use some re-working, because all of them have some huge flaw that makes them unsavoury and aren't worth replacing your Shas'O or Shas'El.

A better HQ choice alternative than Ethereals.

More new units, because there is very little diversity in the army as it stands. commander + 2fw (or 1 and a kroot squad), some crisis, hammerhead, maybe 1-2 broadside, pathfinders make up most armies]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163496.page GMT CC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163498.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163498.page GMT BS 7 or more making shooting overpowered. Yes it does stick with the fluff, but i dont think it'll work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163624.page GMT BS 4 but they lose there S5 weapons ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1163642.page GMT
If they were dropped to 7 or 8 points each they would be extremely cost effective.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1164217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1164217.page GMT BS 4 but they lose their S5 weapons [/quote]

That would destroy Tau as an army and be totally anti-fluff.

I think rather than giving Firewarriors BS4 maybe giving Shas'vre a BS increase instead of their WS increase like. Whilst giving FW wargear than can increase their BS if the squad numbers a certain amount of models or more. Then make Targetting Arrays available via Hard Wired, so FW team leaders can take them with a ML. Whilst cutting points for FWs and ML Drones

Thus giving the Tau a few more options to try to help differing army builds. I'd Also like to see some more weapon choices for the Crisis Suites, i.e. something with AP3.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167418.page GMT BS.

It would be achieved by increasing the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167427.page GMT It would be achieved by increasing the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. [/quote]

Yeah I think this would work well too. Or increase it to 18" and have the Carbines range increase to 24"...

I still think they need a points reduction though. How about this:

Pulse Rifles have rapid fire range increased to 18", Carbines become assault 2.

Squad of firewarriors - 65 points:

1 Shas'ui and 5 Shas'la

Extra Shas'la 9 points
HW targeting array for Shas'ui 10 points
Multi-Node Targetting System 35 points for unit

Multi-Node Targetting System - If the Firewarrior squad numbers 6 or more Firewarriors each model has it's BS increased by 1. As soon as the unit strength drops below 6 models they lose this bonus.

Drones do not count towards unit strength (so your Monat can't be broken by having his 2 sacrificial drones destroyed...).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167447.page GMT
Not OP.

Very Fluffy.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167762.page GMT It would be achieved by increasing the rapid fire range of the pulse rifle to 15 inches. [/quote]

Yeah I think this would work well too. Or increase it to 18" and have the Carbines range increase to 24"...

I still think they need a points reduction though. How about this:

Pulse Rifles have rapid fire range increased to 18", Carbines become assault 2.

Squad of firewarriors - 65 points:

1 Shas'ui and 5 Shas'la

Extra Shas'la 9 points
HW targeting array for Shas'ui 10 points
Multi-Node Targetting System 35 points for unit

Multi-Node Targetting System - If the Firewarrior squad numbers 6 or more Firewarriors each model has it's BS increased by 1. As soon as the unit strength drops below 6 models they lose this bonus.

Drones do not count towards unit strength (so your Monat can't be broken by having his 2 sacrificial drones destroyed...).[/quote]

Rapid fire to 18" might be a bit much but I can easily see 15" being reasonable.

I like the squad concept but 35 may be a bit high; more like 20-25 IMO considering you lose it the first time you're assaulted in close combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167783.page GMT
As for increasing BS for larger units, no, that seems too odd and not that sensical. [Some] Professional Guard, Space Marines, Scouts, Stormtroopers, and many others have similar systems to what I am gathering you're implying with "Multi-Node Targetting System," which I would guess means that there is an inter-unit linking for target acquisition. It's just one more thing to make stuff more complicated than it needs to be.

All models in a unit should always count towards unit strength. If you rely on something and suddenly it is gone (even if that was it's purpose), that puts a little scare into you.

And yes, I have returned, things seemed to have calmed down a bit and we're back on subject. I'll be trying a little harder to avoid being lured off subject, or luring others off subject. That's the beauty of voluntarily excusing yourself, you can voluntarily invite yourself back!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167864.page GMT
As for increasing BS for larger units, no, that seems too odd and not that sensical. [Some] Professional Guard, Space Marines, Scouts, Stormtroopers, and many others have similar systems to what I am gathering you're implying with "Multi-Node Targetting System," which I would guess means that there is an inter-unit linking for target acquisition. It's just one more thing to make stuff more complicated than it needs to be.

All models in a unit should always count towards unit strength. If you rely on something and suddenly it is gone (even if that was it's purpose), that puts a little scare into you.

And yes, I have returned, things seemed to have calmed down a bit and we're back on subject. I'll be trying a little harder to avoid being lured off subject, or luring others off subject. That's the beauty of voluntarily excusing yourself, you can voluntarily invite yourself back! [/quote]

I thought 18" might be more appropriate to match dire Avengers? Also by then making Carbines assault 2 they become viable, you have the choice of trying to cause pinning or having the ability to fire at a longer range. But both give you 2 shots at 18". A 15" rapid fire would be redundant if you applied to bonus to the essentially defunct carbines at the moment as you'd get 2 shots to 18" with them...

I don't see increasing of the BS for larger units as being complicated at all. I think most people who play the game can count to 6. Oh and on this subject:

[quote]
I like the squad concept but 35 may be a bit high; more like 20-25 IMO considering you lose it the first time you're assaulted in close combat.[/quote]

You are probably right about the points it is something that would have to be play tested. But your whole squad is dead the minute they get assaulted so that you'd los ethe bonus in that situation I'd argue would happen even if the bonus counted for any unit size. The unit size thing adds balance to the power and encourages poeple to take full 12 man squads. Having just a 6 man team would firstly then cost 100 points and you'd lose the benefit the second you lost just one FW.

Ok I can understand why drones count towards unit strength and losing them can cause panic but the way the rule currently works is that you can't take 2 drones with a single suite as losing them could mean that he is broken and will never be allowed to rally as he'll be under half strength. So they should count for the purpose of panic tests but not for calculating if the squad is under half strength perhaps?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167923.page GMT
They are meant to be expendable. Shield drones are programmed to sacrifice themselves to protect the T'au.

Gun Drone squads should be unbreakable because they can't feel fear. (they are machines)

Dire Avengers are Assault 2 i belive. Half range rapid fire makes alot more sense then,"my long rang shot is 30" but when i flick on full auto i can only hit things 12" away"

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1167997.page GMT
For instance, does it only apply to Tau models in the unit, or do Drones count, what happens when special characters join the unit, what about special characters deployed with the unit. What happens when they leave? Also, how would it effect special rules from other armies? If there is a special rule that reduces the Tau BS (for whatever reason), do the MNTS still apply, or are they ignored? Does this affect the base BS, or is it an upgrade for purposes of something that might be used against their BS?

See? There are/can be a lot of questions involved to complicate matters. I am not one for "dumbing down" 40k, but with so many rules lawyers running about and the fate of winning a Tournament possibly riding on it (and thus what prizes and honors may be had), ruling one way or another could become infuriating.

As for Drones not counting as they are "expendable," well then for those same reasons would Bodyguards count against unit strength? Their purpose is to be expendable. What about the six Guardsmen in a Guard Squad? Their purpose is to protect their leaders, special weapons, and heavy weapons. Should they count as unit Strength?

The thing it, they all do because the members of the unit become reliant upon them. They have their gaul to fight because they know they have their protectors there to take the hits. Once those protectors die or are incapacitated/destroyed (such as a drone), their confidence may waiver, and question their decision to put themselves in that particular situation.

Addressing the drone squads, they're not stupid. If suddenly their number is halved, a program can be assumed to kick in to assess their situation and decide whether or not to preserve what is left and redeploy, or stay and keep fighting. This decision might not always be fortuitous to their masters, and the program might make a mistake, hence the need for a leadership test. I would assume this was in mind of the designers, or else they may have made them fearless and Ld10. But that's my opinion.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168143.page GMT you are blinding me with your logic

Skinnattittar is correct]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168241.page GMT you are blinding me with your logic

Skinnattittar is correct[/quote]You are quite gracious. My thanks to you for your candor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168341.page GMT
The trick here is that the game designers, or those of us wanting to homebrew some rules, need to think of something specific to Tau that helps them without being A) overpowering or B) too much like what other armies already possess.

I don't feel that a purchased piece of wargear that boosts firing efficiency is taking things too far; if it's confusing then make a new drone that provides the benefit to the squad; it's not any better than a markerlight drone so make it cost the same amount and roll a d6 each turn, before the squad chooses a target, (no different from Imperial Guard orders) for each squad that has one, on a 4+ (or whatever number) the drone has accumulated enough battlefield data to assist the squad.

I'm still torn when it comes to drones and morale. On the one hand, not even battlefield troops in the current century care when a predator gets shot down much less 40k years in the future. That said though, a loss of a drone could represent less intel on the battlefield which could affect morale. Dunno, I'll stew on it some more.

Some good thoughts here, from everyone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168408.page GMT GW to fix it.

My point? The fluff supports BS3 Tau but not BS4 Tau. They lack depth perception, which is extremely important when trying to fire weapons at long range. No depth perception means no ability to properly judge range or orientation to non-linear paths, such as aiming a rifle or tracking a target. So a Tau without a helmet would probably be BS2 or even BS1! But they have a whole slew of advanced tech at hand so it helps them cope and gives them BS3. Those with BS4 either have even more tech and/or have experience, in the same way as Guard Vets are BS4 to the regular Guard's BS3.[/quote]

I play dark eldar, my army's codex is over 10 years old and I hold that it is still WAY overpowered and cheesy... thats why I love it!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168650.page GMT BS (for whatever reason), do the MNTS still apply, or are they ignored? Does this affect the base BS, or is it an upgrade for purposes of something that might be used against their BS?
[/quote]

Well the Scorpion Chainsaw increases a Striking Scorpions strength by 1 and that doesn;t cause huge issues like you are claiming increasing the FWs BS would... You could put in a line saying that all shooting from the unit is resolved at +1 BS which would pretty much resolve all your issues. Drones obviously wouldn't count as the rule specified Fire Warriors, therefore independant characters wouldn't count either as they're not Fire Warriors either as all Tau independant characters are either Battlesuits or Ethereals. It really wouldn't cause problems or any complications.

Yeah drone squadrons shouldn't be fearless. They are obviously going to be programmed with survival instincts or they'd do stupid and suicidal things. They are not simply machines that follow direct commands they are sentient units able to act independantly and for that to work they'd need survival instincts...

I can see why they should count towards unit number for taking panic tests. But it seems a little bizarre that through the destruction of his drones a firewarrior is as effected as he would be by the death of his friends. It also in a game sense means Monats can only take 1 drone otherwise you risk them being permanently broken from just losing some drones (I know about bonding etc). Which just doesn't make sense to me from a game play point of view or from a fluff point of view. Hence the compromise of you still having to take panic tests for losses but not counting towards your 50% for rallying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168690.page GMT In regards to how that would affect the crisis suits, if it wasn't such a fluff issue I'd say leave the crisis suits as they are (with BS3) and make the lame excuse that it is because of the complexity of control. However, being someone who appreciates fluff nearly as much as rules (and here's a heads up... if you play 40k you care more about fluff than rules... nuff said) I'd advocate a complete re-designing of the crisis suit. I'd make crisis suits induvidually more powerful and more expensive (since they are no longer supposed to be the backbone of the army due to the new fire warrior rules), with at least t5 and bs4 standard (and I would even probably keep the targeting array upgrade).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168703.page GMT GW simply come out and say "[we're totally shit-faced when we write rules, we're not apologizing, but it doesn't work the way we wrote it. Only +1 regardless of the number of Astropaths you have.]"

So it's not so simple.

Addressing Drones, I stand fast in my resolve that a loss of an important piece of support equipment, scouting, defense, offense, or tech-support, can have an effect on morale. I am not saying all the Fire Warriors in the squad had developed an eary sense of affection for their flying friends, but consider that they are there to help you, and then they are destroyed, one might be a little bit "oh snap! There's something trying to kill me and they seem to be pretty good at killing my drones! They might be pretty good at killing me next! Aw, shit!"

I suddenly have an image of a drone going down and a Fire Warrior rushing out from cover to cradle the dying robot, begging his beloved "Sparky" to stick with him, promising the drone that a mechanic will be there soon to help put him back together, that everything will be alright, and to think of the new weapons and armor he will be getting to replace his broken ones. And as the little lights on the drone's "face" slowly dim and blink out, the Fire Warrior sadly sheds a tear and sobs....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168731.page GMT GW should get rid of all special rules and have what all the armies identical? All I'm saying is the rule could be easily worked in and it would cause no more problems than any other special rule.

I siad I agree that the loss of drones would have an impact on morale. I'm just saying seeing your drone blown up is not quit ethe same as seeing a member of your species have it's life snuffed out. It is a primal thing and the impact is greater. Hence the compromise I suggested, that you do take panic tests for seeing drones get blown up but that doesn't effect your ability to rally. It also makes sense from a game play point of view. Win win really.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168746.page GMT BS isn't going to fix them, it's just going to make them better shooters. So more shots will hit but they will otherwise be the same. So why not just make them cheaper so you can have more units, able to absorb more damage, and be more willing to move them about to take objectives or stand behind or in front of Crisis Suits, acting as sacrificial shields.

That won't work! Some of you might say, but I as you, look at the Imperial Guard. They suffer most of the same tactical problems, what solved their terrible infantry options? Making them cheaper and with more options. Heck, Tau even have Kroot to improve upon as expendable close combat specialists. Give them some armor modifying weapons (yes, they can have special rules. Anything to encourage armor modifying weapons is a good move in my book), say, -1 or -2 to all saves, with 6+ being the minimum from some sort of special vibro-weapon. It's simple, its alien, it's effective without being odd and broken (I think power weapons and fists are generally broken, but simple and easy to use, so forgivable). Make them cheap and expendable, put them up front instead of the Tau, or behind ready to counter-attack when the Fire Warriors absorb most of the damage (having better armor).

There are a lot of alternative options to just boosting the BS of everything in the army. Many fluffy ones too.

Crisis suits I have always sort of seen as the Tau version of Terminators on speed, hopping around like Counter-Strike players with AWPs or FN Mini. Changes to them, that I would make, is to get rid of the shoot-and-skoot ability (because it's not fun for everyone else, as cool and fun as it may be to use), and make them cheaper with a greater variety of weapons to change their roles in the army. I would suggest close combat versions, but it would have to be accidental, as the Tau are supposed to abhor hand-to-hand combat. Perhaps some sort of elctro-flux field, enemy units engaged with them in close combat would suffer D6 attacks that hit on 4+, S5, this counts as the Crisis Suit's attacks in close combat. I could see Tau using Crisis Suits to blow through enemy packed lines in a mad rush for an objective. So they would need a good combined movement and assault distance, say 12" and 6", or vice-versa?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1168767.page GMT
Yeah drone squadrons shouldn't be fearless. They are obviously going to be programmed with survival instincts or they'd do stupid and suicidal things. They are not simply machines that follow direct commands they are sentient units able to act independantly and for that to work they'd need survival instincts...[/quote]

I dunno, I'm kind of smitten with the idea of suicidal bomb drones flying across the field and smacking into enemy formations.... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169063.page GMT IMO it just becomes frustrating on the battlefield.
The other thing is the changes to cover saves in 5th ed neutering the tau weaponry. Giving the vast majority of units on the field a 4+ save lowers the effectiveness of high Ap weaponry, and increases the effectiveness of assaults. Any player who was around for the change from 4th to 5th edition can tell you that is the truth, without me providing examples. Tau, being in essence a shooting army with high AP and no assault capabilities, suffered a lot.



Most armies can bring some sort of anti-tank, anti-MEQ, and anti-horde weapon in HQ, Elite, Troop, FA and HS slots. Tau, on the other hand, are very restricted. Most Tau units come with a S5 Ap5 weapon (all drones, SMS, FW's, Stealths, Piranhas, some Crisis layouts). The only plate weaponry we have access to is also our best Anti-tank weapon (Railhead). Our best Anti-monster weapon (Ionhead) competes with Railheads for Heavy slots, which is why many Tau armies will be seen with 2 Railheads and 3 broadsides.
Our only other anti-tank weapon (Fusion) is basically a suicide weapon (must be in combat range) whilst also competing with our only anti-MEQ weapon (Plasma).
I think the Tau would really benefit from updating their combat model to include special weaponry in FW squads - possibly via attachment of an XV15 suit or heavy drone to the squad.

On top of this, Tau are one of the few armies left with only 'normal' leadership - ie, look at the modifiers, special rules and exemptions most other armies get from morale tests. I would welcome changing Bonding back to 3rd ed - just purchase bonding for the entire squad rather than it being dependant on the squad leader - as a start (i think that fits in better with the fluff as well). Revamping the C+C node would be great as well.









]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169087.page GMT BS isn't going to fix them, it's just going to make them better shooters. So more shots will hit but they will otherwise be the same. So why not just make them cheaper so you can have more units, able to absorb more damage, and be more willing to move them about to take objectives or stand behind or in front of Crisis Suits, acting as sacrificial shields.?[/quote]

I see your point; however, the fluff seems to indicate that they are not a particularly populous race, unlike orks, humans, or even kroot. I tend to think of the Tau as being similar to ancient romans, elite foot troops that employ auxilaries. If bumping their BS to make it possible for more hits that could equate into more wounds, we'd all have to think of something else to make them more interesting, such as weapon options (i.e., for every 5 models you may take x, y, or z weapon at x cost). A FW squad with 2 plasma rifles in it could be fearsome even if they only have a 3 BS. This option would maintain the usefulness of the markerlights. Thoughts?


[quote=Skinnattittar]That won't work! Some of you might say, but I as you, look at the Imperial Guard. They suffer most of the same tactical problems, what solved their terrible infantry options? Making them cheaper and with more options. Heck, Tau even have Kroot to improve upon as expendable close combat specialists. Give them some armor modifying weapons (yes, they can have special rules. Anything to encourage armor modifying weapons is a good move in my book), say, -1 or -2 to all saves, with 6+ being the minimum from some sort of special vibro-weapon. It's simple, its alien, it's effective without being odd and broken (I think power weapons and fists are generally broken, but simple and easy to use, so forgivable). Make them cheap and expendable, put them up front instead of the Tau, or behind ready to counter-attack when the Fire Warriors absorb most of the damage (having better armor).[/quote]

Since kroot get around, and sometimes hire themselves out to the imperium of all things, why not let the shapers have access to power fists? Barring that, it would be entirely fluffy for shapers to have some sort of special melee weapon that is similar to a power weapon. I would also suggest that attacks from krootox and hounds be rending attacks (if this bumps the point cost per model then so be it). I've always thought of them as kind of beserkers so I don't recommend a bump in their armor save and I notice that you didn't as well. Poison weapon could also be an option that I'm thinking about it.


[quote=Skinnattittar]Crisis suits I have always sort of seen as the Tau version of Terminators on speed, hopping around like Counter-Strike players with AWPs or FN Mini. Changes to them, that I would make, is to get rid of the shoot-and-skoot ability (because it's not fun for everyone else, as cool and fun as it may be to use), and make them cheaper with a greater variety of weapons to change their roles in the army. I would suggest close combat versions, but it would have to be accidental, as the Tau are supposed to abhor hand-to-hand combat. Perhaps some sort of elctro-flux field, enemy units engaged with them in close combat would suffer D6 attacks that hit on 4+, S5, this counts as the Crisis Suit's attacks in close combat. I could see Tau using Crisis Suits to blow through enemy packed lines in a mad rush for an objective. So they would need a good combined movement and assault distance, say 12" and 6", or vice-versa?[/quote]

Interesting. How about flechette dischargers for suits? It's defensive and one shot so it wouldn't be over powered (no strength and no armor penetration and only affect the attackers on the equipped model [base to base contact]).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169104.page GMT [/quote]I'm sure there are many different ways to program drones. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, Kamikaze Drones. Tau are Japanese.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169107.page GMT IMO it just becomes frustrating on the battlefield.
The other thing is the changes to cover saves in 5th ed neutering the tau weaponry. Giving the vast majority of units on the field a 4+ save lowers the effectiveness of high Ap weaponry, and increases the effectiveness of assaults. Any player who was around for the change from 4th to 5th edition can tell you that is the truth, without me providing examples. Tau, being in essence a shooting army with high AP and no assault capabilities, suffered a lot.



Most armies can bring some sort of anti-tank, anti-MEQ, and anti-horde weapon in HQ, Elite, Troop, FA and HS slots. Tau, on the other hand, are very restricted. Most Tau units come with a S5 Ap5 weapon (all drones, SMS, FW's, Stealths, Piranhas, some Crisis layouts). The only plate weaponry we have access to is also our best Anti-tank weapon (Railhead). Our best Anti-monster weapon (Ionhead) competes with Railheads for Heavy slots, which is why many Tau armies will be seen with 2 Railheads and 3 broadsides.
Our only other anti-tank weapon (Fusion) is basically a suicide weapon (must be in combat range) whilst also competing with our only anti-MEQ weapon (Plasma).
I think the Tau would really benefit from updating their combat model to include special weaponry in FW squads - possibly via attachment of an XV15 suit or heavy drone to the squad.

On top of this, Tau are one of the few armies left with only 'normal' leadership - ie, look at the modifiers, special rules and exemptions most other armies get from morale tests. I would welcome changing Bonding back to 3rd ed - just purchase bonding for the entire squad rather than it being dependant on the squad leader - as a start (i think that fits in better with the fluff as well). Revamping the C+C node would be great as well.[/quote]

You brought up a very valid point. I was looking at the Imperial Guard list today and noticed the staggering number of weapons that allows them to ignor cover saves; the Tau have one, the Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher; which is fairly short range and we can only have one per army. Forgeworld does have some very intersting varients to not only the crisis suits but the hammerhead as well.

Which brings up another point that I hope GW will address; the Tau have very little flavor with only a few different model types available; a suit is a suit and devilfish and hammerheads look identical without the turret. Maybe they'll borrow the manta from forgeworld or something to add variation.


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[quote=Skinnattittar]I'm sure there are many different ways to program drones. It wouldn't be a bad idea though, Kamikaze Drones. Tau are Japanese.[/quote]

Maybe that's why my wife offered them as one of the two choices for me to choose from when I decided to return to the hobby, she's Japanese. heh.

Anywho, I can just see it now:

Opponent: Why are you assaulting me with that small group of worthless drones?

Me: Watch.

BOOM!

Maybe they could work something like this:
Assault Drone Squad (1-5 models)
Fleet, Jump Infantry
Same statline as per usual.

Special:
Controlling player may choose to charge an enemy formation. When the assault drones reach base to base contact with an enemy model during either movement or assault phase, they explode causing 2d6 Strength X AP Y hits. (X equals 3 plus 1 for each model beyond the first in the squad, Y= - minus 1 for each additional model beyond the first in the squd). This effect does not work on vehicles and ignores cover.

Since these things would be getting shot to heck and back as they winged their way towards the enemy so if the Tau player is especially lucky or sneaky they might get 2-3 models across the field. Deepstriking may be a potential issue; maybe not allow it as the explosives replace the necessary components for deepstriking.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169116.page GMT
Basically, these drons are the mental rejects of the Tau, maybe inferior products from the Kroot they're trying out. They're the comic relief for the otherwise bland Tau army. You deploy them, they rush around looking for a target, crash into it oblivious to whether or not it is friend or foe (through the will not attack a unit containing other drones of any type, except ones attached to vehicles, which they might think are other destructo-drones attacking said vehicle.... they're special, okay!), detonating on impact!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169190.page GMT FW's getting a heavy or a special weapon in a squad. As a Tau player I don't think I'd like it either

What I would like to see are some basic point tweaks and a new rule or two and a new unit or weapon or so.

I think FW's would be fine at ten points IF for the 120 for 12 we also got an upgraded leader, photon grenades and squad wide bonding. Also, maybe, as an upgrade someway to escape CC without having to be destroyed/ crushed by powerfists/ burned alive by flamers/ riddled with 75mm rocket propelled grenades as we ran away. Maybe some other form of grenade or one self destruct guy/drone.

OH, just had an idea about that. A Grenade that reduced enemy I to 1 for the purposes of pursuit or pass a leadership test to fall back before being assaulted but still count as being broken afterwards.

I think drones should NOT take up space in a transport. If they can float, they can float near my head and don't need to take up a seat. I'm polite, but a DF isn't a bus and a drone isn't an old lady. Also, I feel that I shouldn't have to count them as losses when making a leadership test. I don't emotionally connect with robots/drones. It's not like they're Johnny 5 or a good T-800. Screw'em, they're supposed to die instead of me. There's not a lot of Tau but we can build drones faster than we can 'do it.'

Make drones fearless, why, why were they programed to feel fear?

FW based marker drones, I feel, should be Twin-linked - Assault 1 (maybe 2) - Range 18' AND Heavy 1 - Range 36' (your choice) with the networked rule and adjust the points accordingly. The squad leader could take 2 and use it to buff his squad. That would solve the FW BS issue people seem to have a problem with while still maintaining a markerlight's long range versatility.

Drop DF from 80pts to 60-65, give them blacksun filters and flechet discharger's (Can't spell) for free but make Dis Pods a 10 - 15pt upgrade to off set it.
Sort of like how Rhinos/Chimeras dropped a tonne of points and got a searchlight and smoke for free but extra armour tripled in cost. Adjust the points of the other upgrades a little too, either up or down.

Have Hammerheads changed the same as above and add target lock (Maybe). Possibly give them a third turret option or make the Ion cannon variable like the rail cannon is. Then, in essence, we'd have four choices. Maybe something like Heavy 2, Strength 5, AP 3 weapon that ignores cover saves. This would put us closer to IG/ SM(Kinda) and their amazing ability to ignore cover. Lets face it, there's a lot of cover out there now. Also, incendiary whirlwind rounds make Tau unhappy.

Let Stealth suits and/or Pathfinders be able to take objectives and then keep them at roughly the same points. Fluff wise (I know, not a good way to justify an army anymore) that's kinda what they're supposed to do. Give pathfinders some/all of the same upgrades given to FW as they're kinda the same thing just with a different roll. Also, let Stealth suits have more weapon options, something other than a Fusion blaster, maybe a flamer or other short-mid ranged shooting weapon. Burst cannons ARE good, but a burst cannon and a flamer would be deadly.

I know this is getting long and I apologize. I'm almost done.

Drop Kroot to 6 or 7pts [them being the anti Ork apparently], keep the same stat line and just give them infiltrate, move through cover and stealth (improved stealth if they're generous) I like the idea of making kroot hounds Rending as it's fluffy. Drop a shaper to roughly 18pts and give him access to more wargear or other equipment. Nothing nasty like a PF or anything just something disruptive and sneaky. Like the punji stick trap in there old WD codex, booby trapping a piece of terrain or the like. Keep the same rules for Krootox but give them relentless and heavy so they can move and shoot that pretty gun that I never take cos it's rapid fire.

DO SOMETHING WITH THE ETHEREAL, seriously, I have one converted and painted to look like Cobra Commander [which I'm proud of] that I never get to show off cos he dies all the time. I like the idea of having a spiritual leader that's not also a battlefield commander but do something with them. Something like allow ALL Tau to reroll ALL leadership based tests not just those in LOS. Plus another ability, summoning a weapon, using the fleet to disrupt enemy reinforcements or auto rallying a squad or something.

OR, alternately, give them something similar to a watered down version of the DH Inquisitor's Sage ability. Allowing selected units to shoot at deep strikers as they hit. Maybe then we could do something about those damned pods other than just wait off the table and hope for good reserve rolls.

Make Crisis suits BS 4 base with one or two other, low cost, hardwired abilities built in. (Both elite and bodyguard types) Then keep'em the same really, points and option-wise. We're probably going to get more wargear options to be honest. Which I welcome. Tau are supposed to be one of the ultimate choose toys or boys army anyway.

Since we seem to always get a new unit or the like with a codex (the dubiously useful Vespid) give us another unit. Maybe an elite or fast attack Kroot choice. Those Utah-Raptor-esq riders from the old forge world book, I'm looking at you. Or the 'mutated, gene-eater kroot' from their old Dex' or human aux. Nothing better than the Kroot in CQC as we're trying to maintain a theme here. Faster/mounted kroot would not be out of fluff I feel. I don't like the idea of the winged kroot because they'd be stepping on the 'toes' of the aforementioned Vespid.

Okay, that's it. Long, I know. But, overall, those are very minor changes that wouldn't alter the fabric of the Tau (except the Ethereal which, I feel needs a big alteration) or their established fluff and also wouldn't turn them into 'SM-lite' or 'IG-ultra.' They'd maintain their own identity and overall combat tactics. They don't get anything crazy or game breaking just subtle tweaks that would make them more competitive without becoming overpowering. Plus, with the slight downward trend in points we could squeeze an extra squad or two onto the table and then we'd have to buy more guys. Something GW's been trying to make us do for a while now.

These are all, of course, my own humble opinions. Plus, my longest post EVER!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169705.page GMT
Yeah my Ethereal is probably the best painted model in my army too and he never gets used because well he's useless. Getting the BS4 firewarriors was nuice until I realised that they don't count as scoring as they're no longer a troop choice which just makes them pointless.

I think all Ethereals should have far weaker stat lines (lets face it if they're in CC they're dead anyway). Basically the same as Aun Va's but with I2 (same as other Tau). However they should all come with a hard wired shield generator, maybe also a refresh of the old "look out sir, AARRGH" rule. To help with survivability. THen as you say give them some sort of other special rule. For instance the firewarriors in the unit gain a stand and fire response to being assaulted, representing them doing everything to help keep the ethereal alive. Or for the cost of 1 model they can automatically run from combat without the enemy getting to sweeping advance again as a response to amn assault so the assault doesn't take place.

On that 2nd idea I think that is broadly how photon grenades should work. At the moment they are totally pointless at best a total liability at worse. Lets face it your firewarriors are not going to win combat or survive 2 rounds of combat I don't care what they are fighting. So the photon grenades will either have no effect and you squad is wiped out anyway when it runs after losing combat (most likely outcome) or worse case scenario it makes you lose by few enough to not run away thus turning your firewarriors into a nice pillow for the enemy who will wipe them out in the following turn and be ready to assault again unmolested by return fire...

oh and:

[quote]Make drones fearless, why, why were they programed to feel fear? [/quote]

Otherwise they'd just float across the battle field ignoring cover straight at the heart of the enemy's guns... Programming a survival instinct into them means they can traverse a battlefield without doing stupid suicidal things. The down side is they can then decide to take cover and withdraw if taking casualties...

Marker drones are relentless so whether they are assault or heavy makes no difference, they should be cheaper though...

A point on the Devilfish. As standard it is 80 points but annoyingly counts as 2 KPs for annihilation. However give it a targetting array and SMS it can they pump out 7 strength 5 AP5 shots a turn. Has front AV12 and BS4 at only 115 points. Compared to a Predator at 85 points that pumps out 6 S5 AP4 shots plus 2 S7 AP4 shots at BS4 and has front AV13... Yeah it should be cheaper. 60-65 is about right I'd say. Or what they could do is change the definition of defensive weapons.

I think defensive weapons should be weapons the same strength as your basic troops side arm. Hence for SM this is 4, for IG it is 3, granted for almost every race it will be 4, but for Tau it is 5, we don't really do weapons with an Str lower than 5 so the defensive weapons definition doesn't make any sense for our army...

Hopefully we'll get a new codex next year, we are over due one more than most except Necrons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1169788.page GMT
[b]Fire Warriors[/b]
Pulse rifle becomes rapid fire range 15.
Pulse carbine gets Assault 1, range 24, plus pinning.
Squad structure becomes 5 ‘la plus an ‘ui and Bonding for a straight 60 points. Add more FWs at 9 points each.

[b]Kroot[/b]
6 points each.
Make a squad structure including a Shaper.

[b]Crisis Suits[/b]
Everyone gets a free hard-wired targeting array, or -5 points per suit.
The flamer becomes a heavy flamer.
The burst cannon becomes range 24.
Reduce the number of H2H attacks and increase the number of BS attacks instead.
Squad size becomes 1-4.

[b]Markerlights[/b]
All markerlights become Networked. They hit automatically and are assigned to target units within range at the beginning of the shooting phase. They are spent during shooting for the normal bonuses.

[b]Vehicles[/b]
The burst cannon becomes range 24.
Cost of all vehicles is reduced maybe 5 to 20 points depending on the vehicle.

[b]Stealth Suits[/b]
Burst cannon becomes range 24.
Confirm that SMS ignores cover except if the target is inside an enclosed building.

[b]Smart Missile[/b]
Choose between two types: anti-tank (S8, affects a single model) or airburst (S5, small blast.)

[b]Vespids[/b]
They need to be much cheaper. I'm not sure that would make them useful but it would make them less useless.

[b]Space Pope[/b]
Get rid of him or rewrite the rules and reduce the points cost a lot. He is massively over-costed.

[b]Other Ethereals[/b]
Something, don't know what.

[b]Airburst Frag Launcher[/b]
This becomes an optional weapon for all Crisis suited squad leaders.

[b]Shadowsun[/b]
Her rules need a rewrite.

That is the core of what I would do. I would introduce some new special characters and a couple of new units too. I haven’t thought about them though.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170004.page GMT
Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170661.page GMT
Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.[/quote]

I dunno. Orks have Kustom Force Fields and it sounds like Tyranids are going to have something very similar; both of which provide extended coverage to the units around them. Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1170713.page GMT
[quote=agnosto]Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.[/quote]Well, Space Marines only have one, very expensive, vehicle that has AV14, all the others have AV13 on the front, and AV11 on the sides, AV10 rear. I think Tau hover tanks are a bit tougher than that.

Not everyone is entitled to AV14, if everyone was (and I don't think everyone should have one), then everyone would have an AV14 all around monster like the Land Raider. If you want a Land Raider, then play Space Marines or Necrons. As for AV13 being so easy to tear through (mentioned by others), for one, it's only AV1 less, so your rolls just need one more. You're vulnerable to a few more weapons, true, but it's not that bad in my experience.

Something to consider. I play Guard, and I often find my AV14 Russes having their front armor torn by particular weapons, and I sometimes think "I paid all those points for my Russ to be knocked out by a single hit?!" But I know it's actually not that bad. It just seems it because I just lost something I had felt, at that moment, would stand throughout the game rampaging about and grinding up enemy models beneath the treads of the Emperor's most holy war machine! But I knew that it wasn't so indomitable, and for the most part I expect my tanks to eventually take a critical hit and be destroyed, I just have to accept that.

What I agree is that Tau vehicles are over priced. But the solution shouldn't be to make them tougher, just cheaper. It would be nice if Tau vehicles could be made harder to kill, it would have also been nice for my Leman Russes to be harder to kill. For 20pts, I would buy a Disruption Pod in a second! It wouldn't even be a question, I would ALWAYS buy them, even if I planned to keep my treads in cover. Heck, my Basilisks would probably end up getting them too! I wouldn't even think about NOT factoring it in when I go to buy.

That's the problem. It has a big impact and a small profile, so it's a no brainer to buy and has a disproportionate effect on the game. Make it expensive, just expensive enough, and it will be used when it is needed, rather than just all the time. Imagine if I could buy four or five smoke launchers at 5ppm (assuming vehicles didn't come equipped standard). Then all my tanks could put around and pop smoke every turn to conceal them, protecting them. I'm sure many people would complain about the sudden upsurge in purchasing of smoke launchers. Though I'm sure smoke launcher providers would be ecstatic!


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And just to stay on topic; I still think Tau shouldn't be BS4.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171239.page GMT [/quote]

I'm still not ocnvinced it is anywhere near as big an impact as you make out. You'd really waste 20 points on a DP for a Balisk? Why? In the current game it is nearly impossible not to get a cover save anyway so neither the DP nor the KFF are that great as you'd that save in most cases anyway. Indeed for the Hammerhead the most likely threats completely ignore the DP (i.e. meltas). It is a nice option to have and gives the Tau one small advantage but it does not have a particularly large impact on the game. It only increases the survivability of the Hammerhead by 10% maximum.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171262.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171345.page GMT DP for a Balisk? Why? In the current game it is nearly impossible not to get a cover save anyway so neither the DP nor the KFF are that great as you'd that save in most cases anyway. Indeed for the Hammerhead the most likely threats completely ignore the DP (i.e. meltas). It is a nice option to have and gives the Tau one small advantage but it does not have a particularly large impact on the game. It only increases the survivability of the Hammerhead by 10% maximum.[/quote]And I find your comments both arrogant and ignorant.

Meltas are only one threat, the only one that will be commonly used to get around it. Any weapon, from an Autocannon to a Bright Lance to a Vanquisher Cannon, that is not being fired at a vehicle with a Disruption Pod will automatically lose fifty percent of it's chances to affect the enemy vehicle. That's a big difference. Not the measly 10% you seem to abhorintly stand to for some idiotic reason (and I mean those words, report me if you please). 10% is equivalent to one in ten, when the Disruption Pod blatantly increases survivability to the vast majority of weapons brought to bear upon it by 50%, and you know it. Just because you don't want to admit that an option is horribly slanted, don't you dare state that it is nigh worthless. If that were so, you wouldn't give a crap damn if it were disposed of. I know you are intelligent, I have seen you use that intelligence. Don't insult me by lying to me. Again, I mean that, report me if you please, I fear not for it is the truth of the matter; if the effect if negligible, then its presence is negligible, if not, it is worth something.

As for cover. Yes, it is far more abundant, but when you remove the general necessity to stick to it, you have given yourself a major tactical advantage. Consider that 18" of soil is about the best protection any soldier on a modern battlefield can have for protection between them and the enemy. A bunker made of 18" of soil all around will stop the King of Battle from outright killing a soldier (by that I mean Artillery, 155mm type. The overpressure will most likely render you senseless, and the shock shatter all your teeth, and render you deaf and temporarily stupid, but you'll be alive). 18" of soil, of a few inches of concrete, brick, etc, are very common, and cover easy to find. But that limits your maneuverabilty. Which is why body armor, tanks, and the like were invented and used. So without having to worry about making sure you are going to have you sipping stones to your opponent, you have the advantage to attack him where ever you want, however you want. Disruption Pods and Kuston Force Fields give you that advantage.

You no longer have to worry about making sure half your boyz are behind an obstacle, meaning keeping many of them further from the front, and bunching other units behind them to confer the 4+ cover save from that. When moving your tanks, you can set them right out in the middle of the field, open and plain to see for everyone. As long as you are 18" away from any model with a melta, you are safe and dandy with a 4+ save. That also means you obstruct all those units behind said vehicle, with only 50% the risk of a vehicle without DP of being struck down. You can advance right up to your enemy with anything greater than R12"/18", and blast it right in their faces, again, with 50% less chance of rebuttal as a vehicle without DP. 50%!!! I'll take just about anything that would offer me 50% greater likelyhood of survival as long as it isn't +66/+75% (min) of the vehicle cost.

I can't attest to how you play your Tau. I can only use general Best/Worst case scenarios. Maybe you mis-use your vehicles, or maybe your opponent is EXTREMELY good at getting their meltas in close really quickly. But I can't make those assumptions, because in the absolutely worst case scenario, a single Guardsmen with a melta-bomb can take down Monolith in Turn 2 with particularly good luck for him, and bad luck for the Monolith.

I appologise for the encouraging of off topic discussion, and to anyone else my more colorful language may offend, I mean them no disrespect, though I can not excuse the disrespect it may cause them. But I stand by my words.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1171474.page GMT
This is your problem becuase for a given shot it increases survivability you claim that means it bestows a 50% increase in survivability.

In 70% of circumstances due to the manuverability of Tau Vehicles and the way the cover saves work now they are going to be in cover anyway. Then take into account from the remaining 30% that at least 10% of threats will be from either less than 12" or in CC, meaning that you're 50% benefit will in reality only effect about 20% of circumstances. Hence the 10% benefit.

Yes having not to worry about cover is a tactical advantage like Orks get with a KFF. But nothing like you are claiming. Remember only half the squad (in the case of boys) has to be in cover so you don't have to slow your unit down to take advantage of cover you can have half your unit standing right out in the open and still get that 4+ cover save. With the Hammerhead you have a 72" range so again you don't really need to move out of cover except for LoS and the chances are that you'll still get a cover save from most of what returns fire...

[quote]If that were so, you wouldn't give a crap damn if it were disposed of. I know you are intelligent, I have seen you use that intelligence. Don't insult me by lying to me.[/quote]

I'm not lying to you nor insulting you. Guardsmen aren't a lot of use and I know plenty of IG players that have as little in their army as possible to fit as many tanks as possible. If I said that a Guardsman should be 15 points each do you not think they'd argue at all?

The disruption pod is useful and confers that bit of extra survivability from shooting for our vehicles. Which in the case of the Hammerhead is the only really great thing the Tau have and in the case of the Devilfish it is our 2 kill point massively overpriced transport. Even at 5 points I find DP of no use at all on Piranhas, I run a squad of 2 Piranhas so effectively I'd only need 1 DP to give both the benefit so even at 2.5 points each it still isn't worth it to me. In fact I often don't bother putting them on my Devilfish depending on my army.

If they genuinely were [i]that[/i] great do you not think I'd use them far more prevelantly? As for your suggestion that I can just advance my Hammerhead(s) up the middle a mobile cover for everything else as say Orks do with Killer kans, that is madness for Tau. Firstly the width of a hammerhead is that much and if you use 2 they need to be within 2" of each other to confer the save to everything behind them (as opposed to say the Killer Kans who can squad and be 4" apart). So they are not great for giving you that coverage, whilst they are far to valuable to use in this manner. They are the most valuable thing in a Tau army no way would you use them for this. The Devilfish? Possibly but with it's front armour 12 and only 18" range and the same dimension issue as the Hammerhead it is not really going to help a lot or survive a lot even with the DP.

Remember the Tau are an entirely firebased army and the DP helps them if they can stay at arms reach. But they should be onto a winner if at arms reach anyway once anything gets in CC with them they are dead, iniative 2 sees to that...

So it is a useful tool that gives a decent increase in survivability of about 10% that totally fits in with the army methos and helps protect your one ace in the hole. 15 points is about right for that. At 30 Points I'd probably never take it. To be honest I'd say smoke launchers are pretty much just as effective for Rhinos. They protect you from [i]everything[/i] in the one turn you care about. They start in cover, 1st turn they charge forward and pop smoke. 2nd Turn they charge forward and drop off their contents after that it doesn't really matter if they die. In fact I'd argue that a Rhinos smoke launchers are far far more game winning than the DPs on a Hammerhead. Remember if you don't stop those Rhinos on that turn when they have the smoke popped it is pretty much game over for any gunline army...

And finally there really is no need to get so het up. we're all friendly on here if we disagree that is fine you can argue your case I'll argue mine and I imagine eventually we'll just have to agree to disagree ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172229.page GMT
[b]Shall we return to the topic now?[/b]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172353.page GMT [b]Shall we return to the topic now?[/b][/quote][img]http://joystickcafe.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/bunny_pancake.jpg[/img]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1172450.page GMT
glance on a 6

2D6 CAN NEVER BE USED AGAINST LIVING HULL SKINNATTITTAR

you are wrong ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173253.page GMT
[quote=agnosto][quote=Skinnattittar]Disruption Pods are still poorly priced. It's allows them to ignore 50% of all that is thrown at them more than 12" away, not really at all compareable to Extra Armor which just lets you move around instead of sitting like a dummy in the open. Anything less than 30pts would be way undercosted for saving your craft from destruction. No-one else has an ambient, always active. Smoke launchers are similar, but they can only be used once for one shooting phase.

Also, saying Stablights are the same as the Blacksun Filter is a bit unfair, as I don't think it illuminates the using unit.[/quote]

I dunno. Orks have Kustom Force Fields and it sounds like Tyranids are going to have something very similar; both of which provide extended coverage to the units around them. Tau don't benefit from 14 armor vehicles, unlike the other armies; besides if it became too expensive or got taken away, players could always park a long-range crisis suit unit (twin linked missile pods w/ shield drones) in front of the hammerhead to act as a screen and it would still get the 4+ under the new rules for shooting through units. The suits jump out of the way, everything fires, then they jump back in front of the tank.[/quote]


Both of you need to red the cover rules thiers is noo way suits or kroot could cover 50% of a hammerhead if tis on its stand]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173640.page GMT BS 5 is abit much]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173736.page GMT
Both of you need to red the cover rules thiers is noo way suits or kroot could cover 50% of a hammerhead if tis on its stand[/quote]

Never seen suits on flight stands? Most of mine are posed as if they are taking off or landing which means none of them are touching the ground. Besides, the cover rules also state that shooting through a squad=cover save.


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[quote=Arthas367]I personally think it is a bad idea to give them BS4 they have marker lights, Most tau players who complain about this seem to forget their is other armys, Eldar who already get shreaded by bolters, or imperial guard infantry armys which my friends likes to play he loves his catachans, markerlight to BS 5 is abit much[/quote]

Obviously if the BS were to get bumped that particular function could be done away with and something like twinlinking of shots from a particular unit put in its place or some other option. Markerlights can already be used to bump BS to a maximum of 5 with the standing rules anyway....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1173952.page GMT BS makes the unit 16.666% more effective at shooting - it may not seem a lot, but it does add a lot, especially if markerlights come into play, taking it to 33% - a hell of a lot more effective.

I would say a good fix would be to make pulse rifles AP4, but then I thought about it - it would make tau better at killing.... tau?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1174065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1174065.page GMT [/quote]

Not for Vehicles (and monstrous creatures).

Jack]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1174330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1174330.page GMT
Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redundant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1179815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1179815.page GMT BS by 1

I like the suggestion of if there are more then 6 FWs then they have BS4.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180083.page GMT BS, with Markerlights. I'm pretty sure Tau are the only army with a system quite like this. It is really unique, it represents a similar system that FlingItNow is suggesting, except that nobody else has it.

If that sort of rule goes in, it will fly in the face of a half dozen other armies; Space Marines, extremely well documented to have a similar, if not the same, system. Imperial Guard, some units use advanced targetting matrices, could be available to Veterans, Storm Troopers, or Techpriests, etc... Eldar, same reasons as Space Marines, Sisters of Battle and Demon Hunters use the same if only similar systems as Space Marines, Necrons have "hive mind" like relations, Tyrands HAVE a hive mind.

I'm not saying it's not a fluffy rule, just that everyone else has it an won't get that rule. I think Markerlights are enough. Just make Fire Warriors cheaper, that's pretty much their one problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180173.page GMT
The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.[/quote]

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180418.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1180516.page GMT
Tau are little skinny xenos. STR3.

ORKS are big, burly MEAN GREENIES! STR3. They only get STR4 on the charge.

If a Tau firewarrior sits down with an ork in a bar and has an arm wrestling contest...they'll tie. And while those Tau firewarriors cost 10 points for WS2 STR3 BS3 the orks cost 6 points for WS4 STR3 BS2. Need to balance that crap out. =p]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181028.page GMT
As for the price discrepancy between them, Tau Pulse Rifle is S5 AP5 and R30" with a 4+ armor save. That's a lot compared to the ork weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181592.page GMT
Orks also have 2 attacks and their weapons are only 1 S lower...

However the 2 models work so differently a comparison is a little difficult. Compare the Tau with Sisters or battle. Only 1 point difference but they geta 3+ save compared to a 4+ save, better weapon skill, initative, leadership and equipement and have access to faith points which are far better than marker lights...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181646.page GMT Well if +1S isn't much to consider, can lasguns be S4? Fluffwise, Guardsmen are setting their lasguns to higher kill settings, which is completely plausible as multi-lasers are S6, Lascannons S9, etc... So with more power you can get more S. Fluffy. Not to mention in so many books are lasgun power settings referenced to typically being in the mid or low range to increase power-pack life. You're also still not considering the greater range and accuracy, however, or the Armor Save.

[quote=FlingitNow]However the 2 models work so differently a comparison is a little difficult. Compare the Tau with Sisters or battle. Only 1 point difference but they geta 3+ save compared to a 4+ save, better weapon skill, initative, leadership and equipement...[/quote]This, I will agree upon. Comparing one unit to another is very difficult if they are so drastically different, as Orks are to Tau.

[quote=FlingitNow]...and have access to faith points which are far better than marker lights...[/quote]This, however I can not. I do not know too much about Faith Points, but as I have seen them, they can be fidgety and occasionally problematic, but rarely detrimental (if ever). Markerlights, however, are always welcome, and always useful, so I can't say anyone should lament them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1181923.page GMT
Read the rest of my post I pointed out the difficulties in comparing the 2. However as for the range shooter boyz get assault 2 18". I'm not saying +1S is nothing just pointing out the over statement of comparing it with Ork weaponry.

You could compare an Ork shoota Boy with a kroot. Kroot is a point more. Gets the same number of attacks at same S on the charge. Gets no access to Waagh, gets no armour save, gets 1 less toughness and has a 24" rapid fire compared to an 18" assault 2 (I know which I'd choose) and can include Nobz that can take powerclaws! Just better alround for a point less...

[quote]This, however I can not. I do not know too much about Faith Points, but as I have seen them, they can be fidgety and occasionally problematic, but rarely detrimental (if ever). Markerlights, however, are always welcome, and always useful, so I can't say anyone should lament them.[/quote]

Marker lights are ace and I love them. They are integral to how the Tau work. Without them the BS3 would be total debilitating. However as they are BS4 as standard a markerlight wouldn't be as much use to a Sister. Granted denying cover saves is great but again Sisters can take so many flamers even that would be of limited use to them. However being able to make your 3+ save invulnerable is HUGE, making all your shots rending is again a HUGE benefit, adding to that the ability to make you strike first and almost any normal unit of sisters can stand up to most CC units points for points, whilst being absolutely lethal from range.

I know sisters players that claim that their faith points basically make their armies undefeatable and they've never lost with them. Markerlights are great but just don't have the range of uses as faith points. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182045.page GMT
Earlier points, I was making general abstractions on your comments for clarity and examples derived there from. I felt your post was a little unclear about what you meant. I'm not attacking you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182085.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182091.page GMT
I didn't I just said that ML use would be of limited use to that army due to the number of flamers in the army in general. What other points I made were poor? In what way?

[quote]
Earlier points, I was making general abstractions on your comments for clarity and examples derived there from. I felt your post was a little unclear about what you meant. I'm not attacking you.[/quote]

fair enough

[quote]I've got the answer, one that noone would ever take. A veteran firewarrior squad as an elite choice. Improved stats, higher cost, elit slot, maybe access to a heavy weapon or 2....[/quote]

Yeah you are right no-one would ever use that ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182125.page GMT

here are my thoughts after reading everyone elses ideas.

FWs bs 4, same price, heck reduce their physical stats even further if you like.
-to the space marines, your already getting a +2 or +3 save anyway, 12 fire warriors w/ a +1BS at rapid fire range equates to an increase of 0.45kills on +2 save, and increase of 0.89kills on a +3. Total kills of: +2, 1.33 at BS 3, +3, 2.67 at bs3 compared to.. +2, 1.78 at BS 4, +3, 3.56 at bs4.

So please PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me how this is going to have some fantastically detrimental affect on your precious space marines? since thats what everyone thinks is the amazing race that should be the standard for measuring everything against, which other races shouldnt beat apparently. sorry im just sick and tired of space marines QQing if someone tries to point out discrepencies with very solid numerical reasoning as to why a unit is over price, needs a change etc.

rapid fire being 1/2 weapon range would be nice and easy to handle, and it would benefit more than 1 race.

Crisis suits, keep at BS 3, increase toughness to 5. Why? fluff, suit could be to carry heavier weapons and increase survivability of the wearer. By it using heavy weapons its less accurate due to the mass of said weapons moving and not having time to fully set up into a 100% stable position (hastier shot to get it off in the time required). This keeps suits from being OMFG +1 mark light just pew pewed an entire squad of those precious space marines in 1 round.

Transports/tanks do need to be cheaper, sorry but tau are not trying to close/assault YOUR GOOD AT IT, tau arent. SM transports have 1 purpose, armor shield troops getting them to the battle as fast as possible...IE turn, smoke, turn Woo you made it their job is now complete. everything else the marines have has better armor, as well as the ability to 1 turn pop smoke, and depending on the codex can be quite a bit better than Dpod for a turn...dunno bout you but id love to turn every penetrating hit into a glance with AV14.

Burst cannons should be a defensive weapon on vehicles, nuff said, sorry but when the weakest weapon a tank can carry is 2 burst cannons and cant fire them as a defensive weapon? poppy cock! now to defend myself against the inevitable space marine player, you have machine spirit, go ahead and fire all those friggen las cannons anyway. GG nuff said.

*edit*
to the people who think that only people who complain about something needing a buff are whining, its not about complaining its about pointing out basic inequalities in the statistics of the game, if i were to sit down and analyze every army (working on it..) i'm sure i personally, as well as anyone else playing, can find at least 1 item in an army that is like...wow you serious? this is dumb it needs fixed. But where it really becomes issues is, when its things people are FORCED To take in an army essentially making them waste points, when there is nothing in their codex with the ability to fill the role of said cost inefficient unit effectively, or that the price of said ineffective unit is not offset by other OVER efficient pieces of the army available in the codex.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1182433.page GMT
Skinnattitar...read the Tau fluff. They are not a numerous army on the field, and making them cheaper only makes them more numerous.

If you want to cite "fairness between armies"...well you have to start somewhere, don't you? Keep the Tau a small, elite force (in-line with the fluff), and you can set a wonderful precedent for realigning other armies to a more fluffy place.

Of course, as I have made clear...it seems that to up the model sales, GW will drop the point cost...which makes the Tau more numerous but more important it gives them an extra $25 per box of Fire Warriors.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1183134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1183134.page GMT If you want to cite "fairness between armies"...well you have to start somewhere, don't you? Keep the Tau a small, elite force (in-line with the fluff), and you can set a wonderful precedent for realigning other armies to a more fluffy place.
Of course, as I have made clear...it seems that to up the model sales, GW will drop the point cost...which makes the Tau more numerous but more important it gives them an extra $25 per box of Fire Warriors.[/quote]Oh, but I have read the Tau fluff, and I know they are not numerous. But making them disproportionally better than they actually are to focus on one bit of fluff, while setting the rest in a dark corner and say "oh, ignore that, it's getting in the way of how I want to focus on the fluff" is probably worse in the case you have given.

If we are to design armies on their numbers, than Orks, Guard, and Tyranids should be 1pt per standard model while keeping the same stats. They are numerous to the extreme, the most numerous of all the races in the galaxy. And on the other end, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, and perhaps even Space Marines (there are an unknown number of chapters, but they are still rare-ish) would be 100pts per standard model as there are so few of them by comparison, but they would still have their relatively current stat lines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1183433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1183433.page GMT
Nah you go by fluff a Space Marine should be able to hold his own against 40-50 Guard or Orks. A Squad of 10 should be able to releave an entire Guard regiment. They should be miles and miles harder and should be about 200 points each. By fluff.

Firewarriors should be cheaper. They should have access to wargear that allows the squad to increase it's BS. Having the FW have a higher BS than the suits is entirely counter logical to me.

They should all be bonded (it should apply to the unit) and come with a Sha'ui as standard. Kroot need to be able to take some sort of powerfist or atleast a power weapon. Hounds should get rending.

Whilst I feel battlesuits should be able to pay a certain amount for a standard fit type and then be able to pick from say 3 options AFTER the opponent, mission and deployment are known. To represent how they pick their weapons for the job at hand. However the price of this standard fit owuld be more expensive than the individual points required to make any of the options. For instance 60 points gets you the choice of Brightwind, Deathrain or TL Fusion Blasters and TA (each option 53-58 points).

I also think suits should get a toughness increase to 5, they are just too fragile at the moment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184187.page GMT FW already have an option to increase their BS. They are called Markerlights. That is something I'm not sure Tau players are getting. You HAVE something SUPER unique ONLY to Tau that can increase BS and decrease Cover Saves! You have weapons that ignore Cover Saves and can fire without line of sight! Those are useful things! Increasing FW BS and then by default demanding 'Suit BS being increased isn't entirely fair or fluffy.

I will agree that suits seem to be a bit papery, on occassion. If you get rid of their shoot and scoot, I would agree, increase their Toughness to 5 or even make them a skimmer-walker (a unique attribute, I think) with AV10. But not both. Shoot and scoot is your defense for low Toughness, and it works extremely well, better than T10 on many occasions because you can't even attack them if you can't see them!

Kroot could get a few power weapons for their leader type characters, I don't see why not, maybe not power-fists though. Rending for their hounds isn't a terrible idea, but I would like to hear more about their stats. Rotating weapons rack is a bad one, though. Fluffy, in some ways I suppose, but it would be completely out of norm and too foreign to be fair (I can not recall anything else like it in 40k). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184536.page GMT FW already have an option to increase their BS. They are called Markerlights. That is something I'm not sure Tau players are getting. You HAVE something SUPER unique ONLY to Tau that can increase BS and decrease Cover Saves! You have weapons that ignore Cover Saves and can fire without line of sight! Those are useful things! Increasing FW BS and then by default demanding 'Suit BS being increased isn't entirely fair or fluffy.[/quote]

I think people want an option, like other armies, that can be purchased and works all the time instead of rolling to hit with the markerlight and then hoping your markerlight producing squad doesn't get creamed.

[quote=Skinnattittar]I will agree that suits seem to be a bit papery, on occassion. If you get rid of their shoot and scoot, I would agree, increase their Toughness to 5 or even make them a skimmer-walker (a unique attribute, I think) with AV10. But not both. Shoot and scoot is your defense for low Toughness, and it works extremely well, better than T10 on many occasions because you can't even attack them if you can't see them![/quote]

Agreed; however, I could see broadsides being treated as walkers with stats similar to dreadnoughts.

[quote=Skinnattittar]Kroot could get a few power weapons for their leader type characters, I don't see why not, maybe not power-fists though. Rending for their hounds isn't a terrible idea, but I would like to hear more about their stats. Rotating weapons rack is a bad one, though. Fluffy, in some ways I suppose, but it would be completely out of norm and too foreign to be fair (I can not recall anything else like it in 40k). [/quote]

Agreed;however, I don't see what the aversion to power fists is. The fluff is there, either from mercenary work or conquest on the battlefield; if kroot don't have any problem eating their enemies, I don't see them thinking twice about taking their weapons. They do need some sort of can-opener weapon that would make them suck less in close combat, that is their job after all.

I agree that the idea of being able to switch weapon loadouts before a battle is a) too cumbersome and b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184574.page GMT
Yes I generally don't take deathrains if up against marines. Where as I always like to take them against anyone else. The weapons fits could see a blacksun filter included for DoW. It wouldn't be that cumbersome except from a miniature point of view either forcing you to bring lots of different suits or use magnets. But I think it would be a nice bit of lfuff that would help with the Tau's main weakness.

As an army they do well when equiped for the job but do poorly when equiped for all comers. The fireknife is a perfect example it is very expensive and has no synergy. But is basically manditory if you don't know your opponent before had as it can deal with most types of opponent (particularly SM).

Being a good alrounder makes you not great at anyone thing. With shooting inparticular using the right weapon for the right job is so important as you get so few chances to kill compared to an assault. The only other pure shooting force is the IG and the Leman Russ 's battlecannon is great against anything except terminators. It instant kills most 2 wound stuff, gives no armour saves to all but 2+ guys and it can have other weapons too. The demolisher is shorter range but is again lethal against anything.

The Tau really don't have any good against all comers weapons and are far worse in assault than IG.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184591.page GMT
Yes I generally don't take deathrains if up against marines. Where as I always like to take them against anyone else. The weapons fits could see a blacksun filter included for DoW. It wouldn't be that cumbersome except from a miniature point of view either forcing you to bring lots of different suits or use magnets. But I think it would be a nice bit of lfuff that would help with the Tau's main weakness.

As an army they do well when equiped for the job but do poorly when equiped for all comers. The fireknife is a perfect example it is very expensive and has no synergy. But is basically manditory if you don't know your opponent before had as it can deal with most types of opponent (particularly SM).

Being a good alrounder makes you not great at anyone thing. With shooting inparticular using the right weapon for the right job is so important as you get so few chances to kill compared to an assault. The only other pure shooting force is the IG and the Leman Russ 's battlecannon is great against anything except terminators. It instant kills most 2 wound stuff, gives no armour saves to all but 2+ guys and it can have other weapons too. The demolisher is shorter range but is again lethal against anything.

The Tau really don't have any good against all comers weapons and are far worse in assault than IG.[/quote]

If I play and have a fireknife team and no marines to shoot, I deepstrike them and pop tanks from rear armor or harrass the enemy from the flanks or rear with them. I always take deathrain, even vs. marines, you don't get the insta-kill but your opponent still has to roll and they generate mass of fire.

I love the tau as an army but the thing I hate most is that the entire army must focus fire on individual units when facing marines or they'll get in close combat and mulch the firewarriors. As far as balance of the game goes, I've always felt that the points should fit the production. Point for point, with average dice rolling, a basic troop choice should be able to take out it's counterpart in any army. Instead we get armies, like chaos marines, that have so many special rules floating around you have to own the codex to play against them (Icon this, demon prince that, warp-power this, mark of whatzit that). I guess that's a whole other rant; my point here is that the game is already weighty enough without adding yet another special rule. Tau get markerlights and trickedout jumpsuits, we have to make them work within the context of normal gameplay and it can be done without creating a special rules codex that would be bigger than the rules book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184637.page GMT MEQ they don't generate that much fire and won't kill many marines. You'd be better off with fire warriors or even stealth suites (certainly XV9s they look awesome).

The Tau wouldn't need to be tricked out with too many special rules. Just adjust a few things and give them a few additions. I think the multi-use suit option is a good idea that fits the fluff and gives the Tau player some tactical options whilst not requiring the opponent to learn anything new as the weapon fits would be entirely standard.

Look at the SM codex that actually has almost as many rules as the Rulebook the Tau codex wouldn't have to be near that big. But they do desperately need more options because the Tau army is almost becoming standard these days. Some options need fixing (FW and Vespid why oh why would you ever take a Vespid squad, Stealth suits are also UP and of little use). Their special characters need redesigning from the ground up to actually fit in the with army.

And DPs need to go up in points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184666.page GMT tl missile pod shots and then lots of pulse carbine shots, generated something like 9 wounds in a unit of 7 and followed up with a rapid firing FW squad that generated another 8. Looked up at my friend/opponent and said "start rolling".

It sucks that it took all that combined firepower, 21 models, to kill 7; that's how broken chaos is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184710.page GMT
On average from 17 wounds you should kill just under 3 plague marines...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1184757.page GMT What other armies are like this? Guard have Veterans, but that's not really a purchasable piece of wargear. It is an entirely other Troops choice that works totally different (not on a squad level, but as a Troops choice) than normal Guard squads. Space Marines all have BS4, Eldar have a similar system to Guard, Orks have totally different units that are mostly BS2.... I'm just not seeing what you're saying they don't have that other do? I would suggest squad level, single shot, unit specific (only work for the armed unit) Marker Drones for say 20-25pts, good upgrade for large units, not so much for smaller units. Should only be able to apply to the assigned unit, get rid of Pathfinders with Marklights, have them act as forward snipers with pinning weapons, be cheaper. Have vehicles exchange a nose drone for a Marker Drone, again, unit specific.
[quote=agnosto]...I could see broadsides being treated as walkers with stats similar to dreadnoughts...[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote=agnosto]...I don't see what the aversion to power fists is. The fluff is there, either from mercenary work or conquest on the battlefield; if kroot don't have any problem eating their enemies, I don't see them thinking twice about taking their weapons. They do need some sort of can-opener weapon that would make them suck less in close combat, that is their job after all.[/quote]
Well, I'm not a fan of power-fists in general, they're far too common in my opinion. A fluff reason would be that Kroot physiology is extremely different from other races, and I don't think a human's power fist would readily fit onto a Kroot's hand. For "can opening," by that I think you mean tank busting? Melta bombs. Anyone can pick them up and use them, so they could get them of fallen opponents, and they are quite effective.
[quote=agnosto]I agree that the idea of being able to switch weapon loadouts before a battle is a) too cumbersome and b) useless. Seriously, would it affect how many fireknife or deathrain suits you take if you know your enemy before the battle? Not usually.[/quote]I think the complaint is mostly for tournament lists. But I think it is a poor solution and pretty underhanded. An opponent could never predict what you are going to bring to table even if they watch you play, which would be a major advantage. Yes, they could predict what options you would have, but until the last minute they wouldn't know, while the Tau player would know what everyone else has. That is why I feel it is too foreign and unfair, nobody else has anything like it.

I hear a lot of complaining about Tau, but I still see them win three out of eight time they play, which is only slightly below what they should (two evenly matched opponents should have a fifty-fifty share of winning and losing). Tau have troubles, but they aren't great. Guard came out and blew everyone away but already they're making their way back to fifty-fifty and no new codices have come out (except Space Wolves, but they are essentially a new army). Tweak Tau points costs is the biggest thing that needs doing, and get rid of less savory weapons options and consider making new units (like Kamikaze Drones!). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185154.page GMT [/quote]

Hardly a major advantage. It would give the Tau player some options and yes it would mean predicting his list wouldn't be possible. But you would know largely what he had. As I said the multi-choice build would be more expensive than picking any of the individual options so he'd be essentially always playing you a few points down, but would have the advantage of tailoring and you not knowing exactly what he had. I think it would be pretty balanced and give both players some interesting challenges. Also taking away the one major problem Tau have in tournaments. As is they need an exceptional player or a lot of luck to stand a chance in tournaments...

They also need more variety in their list and some options need improving because we just don't see them. Devilfish should be 60 points. Vespid should be assault 2. Stealthsuits should be allowed to take any number of fusion blasters and be cheaper about 25 points each is fine. Their battlesuit systems need to be cheaper than the Crisis counter parts (except Drones of course). And they need a few more long range options for the crisis suits preferably something with AP3 or a blast weapon.

The XV9s look good and they need that and probably the heavy drones to be introduced as at the moment they are just light on options. Tau armies are largely identikit at the moment with only one template build for success. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185722.page GMT [/quote]

Well a grot is a better shooter than an ork and can be taken en mass; a "veteran" firewarrior squad would be nice. Agreed, Marines don't need anything. Guard have orders which are nearly guaranteed to work every time... etc. Admittedly a weak argument but I'm not pushing for the entire army to jump up in BS without doing away with markerlights. I would be happy with a 0-1 veteran squad with BS 4 that has an appropriate points cost, something like the Ethereal bodyguard but without the worthless ethereal...

I would be happy to do away with markerlights all together and come up with something similar to imperial guard orders; what tau player wouldn't like something like "take it down!" or "first rank fire, second rank fire!"? Unit specifc markerlights would mess with crisis squads. it'd just be easier to do away with the system completely and start from scratch; it's cute but too random in the working department.

[quote=Skinnattittar]Well, I'm not a fan of power-fists in general, they're far too common in my opinion. A fluff reason would be that Kroot physiology is extremely different from other races, and I don't think a human's power fist would readily fit onto a Kroot's hand. For "can opening," by that I think you mean tank busting? Melta bombs. Anyone can pick them up and use them, so they could get them of fallen opponents, and they are quite effective.[/quote]

I was actually referring to opening power armor; Tau have enough anti-tank, what they lack is some way to be effective in close combat. My argument is that why have kroot at all if they're no good at what they were created to do, be the Tau fist in the face, to do that they need access, even if it's for shapers only, to weapons that void armor saves.

[quote=agnosto]Tweak Tau points costs is the biggest thing that needs doing, and get rid of less savory weapons options and consider making new units (like Kamikaze Drones!). [/quote]

I agree completely, suicidal drones for everybody!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1185808.page GMT Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1186474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1186474.page GMT I would be happy to do away with markerlights all together[/quote]

They are essential to how the Tau work, take them away and Tau stop being Tau.

[quote]Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work. [/quote]

Sad but true.

[quote]Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon[/quote]

Even with a fist or powerweapon Kroot wouldn't be that scary in CC, they are relatively expensive and die very quickly.

But yes I think we need a few more long range options on the Crisis suits amongst other things mentioned above.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1186726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1186726.page GMT Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon [/quote]

Then make them more mobile. Heck, marines are more mobile than tau right now with more transport options and homing beacons, etc.

Maybe a rule that allows firewarriors to jump out of a devilfish, shoot, and pile back in; make it where they lose rapid fire that turn or something.

My point here is that for a strictly pew pew army, they don't do it very well so either give them more dakka, something that slows down all the close assault armies (since pinning is worthless), or a close combat option. That's the only way they'll ever be competitive in 5th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187233.page GMT Id like to point out, that against about any race thats really worth pinning, pinning doesnt work.

Thank you, try again.


Also, i don't think tau should be given a very viable melee option.. its about mobility and pew pewing.. not RAWWWWRRRR smack! although...assaulting crisis suits into marines isnt a bad option unless they have a power weapon [/quote]

Then make them more mobile. Heck, marines are more mobile than tau right now with more transport options and homing beacons, etc.

Maybe a rule that allows firewarriors to jump out of a devilfish, shoot, and pile back in; make it where they lose rapid fire that turn or something.

My point here is that for a strictly pew pew army, they don't do it very well so either give them more dakka, something that slows down all the close assault armies (since pinning is worthless), or a close combat option. That's the only way they'll ever be competitive in 5th edition.[/quote]

first sorry if i was rude i was trying to be sarcastic read it again just now and it seemed kinda mean.

I Wouldn't mind a point reduction on a few things, and or a single stat buff here and there. In general I think this would justify some things point costs, and if they dont get a little help, a couple point reduction to make them on par with other peoples units would be completely acceptable.

Cheaper would mean more dakka
not cheaper but a little buff would mean our dakka sticks around a little better
Maybe a actual post in a codex that gun drones off ships dont count as KP or FAQ, not just a response from GW saying they dont
Perhaps changing it so that burst cannons count as defensive weapons for tau since it is their weakest weapon system after all
I'll leave the rest to more experienced minds for now ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187492.page GMT read it again just now and it seemed kinda mean.

I Wouldn't mind a point reduction on a few things, and or a single stat buff here and there. In general I think this would justify some things point costs, and if they dont get a little help, a couple point reduction to make them on par with other peoples units would be completely acceptable.

Cheaper would mean more dakka
not cheaper but a little buff would mean our dakka sticks around a little better
Maybe a actual post in a codex that gun drones off ships dont count as KP or FAQ, not just a response from GW saying they dont
Perhaps changing it so that burst cannons count as defensive weapons for tau since it is their weakest weapon system after all
I'll leave the rest to more experienced minds for now [/quote]

We can all agree that they need some tweaking; the problem is that there are so many ways to do it.
Point reduction's probably not the best way to go since they aren't a numerous race so there shouldn't be as many of them on the field as orks or guard. That leaves somthing that will help them stay alive in a rules edition that seems determined to become "Warhammer 40k, Fantasy Battles Part 2" with a focus on melee over shooting. True line of sight, cover saves out the whazoo, and that darned focus on melee makes the universe a very unfriendly place for tau.

So, how do you tweak them? Here are a few ideas:
a) defensive grenades stop assaults for one turn per game.
b) template minefields produce difficult terrain effects. Marine scouts can throw down mines, why not tau?
c) make markerlights cheaper and every tau, not kroot, unit able to get them. Barring this, do away with markerlights and institute something similar to guard "orders" that produces effects that benefit the unit; the codex mentions the different hunter philosophies, make use of that.
d) extend the range of crisis suit weapons a bit so that they may stay out of melee easier; again, this fits fluff as kill from afar shooty people. 1" to 2" for each weapon would be huge; especially burst cannons.
e) more template weapons. personally, I could see the Ion cannon able to shoot small templates like the executioner.
f) close combat weapons for kroot that are similar to power weapons; even if only shapers have access, it'd be an improvement. As is right now, they lose to every combat unit in the game unless you're really lucky. Make kroot weapons "assault 1 or 2". Hounds and krootox need to have rending attacks.
g) more, varied units. Elite firewarrior teams would be cool; they cost more but have BS4 and access to heavy weapons, similar to space marine tac squads (1 heavy for every 5); it would be nice to field more than crisis suits as elites... I love the idea of suicidal drones but that probably sounds kind of Orky.
h) increase rapid fire range for FWs to 15". (thanks kilkrazy)

I guess I would like to see us, as players, able to get more use out of the units we already have, not reduced points to field more faulty troop choices.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1187789.page GMT
It is a very simple rule, intuitive, easy to restrict to Tau alone. It would give Tau a unique shooty capability very resonant of their fluff, and it would not overpowering.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1188116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1188116.page GMT
It is a very simple rule, intuitive, easy to restrict to Tau alone. It would give Tau a unique shooty capability very resonant of their fluff, and it would not overpowering.[/quote]

Yep, forgot that one; agree wholeheartedly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1188133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1188133.page GMT

Yeah that would help. Though I still maintain they should make it 18" and make Carbines Assault 2.

Maybe a rule to allow the Devilfish to move 18" in a turn?

Vespids are mobile making them assault 2 would stop them from being entirely pointless and again "fix" a unit no one would otherwise take if they intend to win (like the Carbine Firewarriors fixed above). And on agnostics:

a) How about it gives you an Iniative test, testing on the highest Iniative in the squad (Ethereals would have I3-4) and you auto fall back but avoid combat. Would also give you a reason to take Ethereals, who need a general overhaul.

b) OK but not convinced it is particularly Tau or useful.

c) First part yes. Keep everything the same but make Marker drones 20 points. Second part a resounding no why take away the coolest thing about the Tau?

d) Agreed or give us more longer range options. Plasma and Missile launcher are the only remotely longe range options we have and the plasma is only average range...

e) Might be OP but yes in theory (maybe give the seeker missiles a blast option and allow the Skyray to fire as many on one ML hit as it likes, again fixing a unit that otherwise you'd never take).

f) 100% yes!

g) Yeah that would be cool still can't see anyone not taking Crisis suites though. Stealths need to be cheaper 20-25 points each and/or able to take any number of fusion blasters then they'd be a genuinely good option.

h) see above

I think these measures would see tau players have far more viable options and mean that Tau armies wouldn't be so identikit as they are at the moment. Give us a few more units sure but fix the multitude of units added fo rthe last codex that aren't any good (or the options that have never been good like Stealth suits and Carbines).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189270.page GMT
I haven't thought of a way round that yet. Making carbines Assault 2 could work. It would certainly make me think carefully about which gun to equip on my FWs.

Although, to look at it another way, we are talking about [i]doubling[/i] the firepower of the FW with carbine. It sounds a big step.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189402.page GMT
I haven't thought of a way round that yet. Making carbines Assault 2 could work. It would certainly make me think carefully about which gun to equip on my FWs.

Although, to look at it another way, we are talking about doubling the firepower of the FW with carbine. It sounds a big step. [/quote]

Yes it is a big step and you'd have to extend the rapid fire range of the Rifle to 18" too (or they would become pointless) or have both at 15".

But given that no one EVER uses the Carbines will this really improve the army hugely? I don't think so just improve a particular option so that it is viable. If you think that would OP them then the other option is make them both 15". I think at a certain range you should get 2 shots with either the Carbine or Rifle. You then have the option of a one shot longer range or the ability to pin. Neither choice effecting your core fire power if you see what I mean? So both are viable.

It would make everyone think differently about carbines and they would appear in many armies. Some would still stick with the rifles whilst others yet might go totally over to carbines. Gun drones would have to increase in price though. Again bringing variety into the options people actually select for Tau.

You have to admit you see a Tau tournament army and you know exactly what you are facing without having to see any models. The only question is all mech or Kroot...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1189413.page GMT
The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.[/quote]

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...[/quote]

Well the tau were based off of the squinty ey...*cough* asians

When did tau become a small hi-tech force? They launch crusades to gain more territory, for the greater good of course. Show me a reference that says they are a small hi-tech force.
Aslo, the space marines got screwed in the codex creep, their tactical marines actually went up. Also, he did not derail the thread look at his last line, which I agree with.[/quote]

Inorite?

Apparently I've just been derailing this thread in peoples eyes, so I'll give this.

As has been stated, Tau BS is actually a 2, akin to orks, because of eyesight. They're super-high tech helmet and such, makes it a low BS3. Now, following that, people can say that its even more high-tech than that, but following that logic, Tau COULD have BS9, SM should have BS18, and such, so that doesn't work.

Luckily, Tau aren't stuck with BS3 vehicles like eldar because of targetting array. In general, at he moment, I believe people take two squads of six FW in 'fishes, because of how much they suck, but they still need scoring units.

Markerlights helm tremendously with BS problems I hear, I am no Tau player, but I don't see the problem because of markerlights. Instead of just slapping bs4 on all of tau, they made markerlights to make it different.

Hm..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224050.page GMT
Fire Warrior don't need a better BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE!

Give firewarrior teams more support capabilities. Give them heavy weapons in their teams and maybe special drones or abilities to support the crisis. They could have pinning weapons or special weapons or upgrades to make them a useful tool to pin down units so crisis etc. can jump back etc.

Don't just give everything the fix of "MAKE IT MORE KILLY!". Look at Grey Hunters, they balanced Space Wolves highly expensive HQ's with cheaper troops, but still effective, troops, but didn't let them take heavy weapons or sarges. If you wan't a sarg you have to take wolfguard and not be able to get a 2nd special weapon if you want to stay in a transport.

You see the synergy and the not overly powered unit they have going? Grey Hunters are great troops because they compliment the other choices in the codex. If they were the standard troops in vanilla space marines, well then they might be considered quite weak due to them not being able to carry heavy weapons and their lower leadership and lack of sarg.

Let the firewarriors complement their codex. The codex has screen troops (Kroot) so FW don't need to be that. Tank-busting units (crisis, railgun equiped units), Support Units (markerlights) fast units (Piranhas) "stealth/scout" units (Stealth Suits) etc...

Where do the firewarriors fit in? Well, in my opinion, as a pinning and/or mass firepower unit. Give them the ability to put out pinning shots (maybe in the form of super-pinning special weapons) and maybe some better firepower options ala special weaponry / heavy weaponry / drones. Sure Carbines pin, but I'm talking reliably pin.

So that's my 2c, the ideas are kinda thought on the spot so just take the jist of it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224080.page GMT
The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.[/quote]

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...[/quote]

Well the tau were based off of the squinty ey...*cough* asians

When did tau become a small hi-tech force? They launch crusades to gain more territory, for the greater good of course. Show me a reference that says they are a small hi-tech force.
Aslo, the space marines got screwed in the codex creep, their tactical marines actually went up. Also, he did not derail the thread look at his last line, which I agree with.[/quote]

I shall be quoting both the 3rd and 4th Edition Tau Codex(s) in what I am about to say.

[b]When did they become a small, hi-tech force?[/b]
[quote= 3rd Edition Codex, pg. 13]Hunter Cadres average slightly more than fifty Tau, and in practice, a typical Tau army for Warhammer 40,000 respresents a single Hunter Cadre[/quote]
[quote= 3rd Edition Codex, pg. 16]Tau technology is highly advance, and incorporates myriad integrated systems that enable the warriors in the Fire Caste to wage war more efficiently[/quote]

The 4th Edition Codex is more specific about size.
[quote= 4th Edition Codex, pg. 23] Contingent: A contingent is simply a grouping of Cadres, normally 3 to 6....such a unit is roughly equivalent to an Imperial Guard regiment[/quote]
4th Edition on their technology.
[quote= 4th Edition Codex, pg. 20] The heresy of these aliens reaches it's zenith when one looks at their technology. While it admittedly it can match, and occasionally exceed that of Imperial manufacture..[/quote]

Be aware with the 2nd quote I took from 4th Edition, that the description is also being written by a member of the Ad. Mech (there is going to be a bit bias).

[b]As to why I reported him...racism does violate Dakka rules...clear and simple. It doesn't matter who or what you think the Tau are based off of, degrading comments are not acceptable, period.[/b]

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224510.page GMT
I'm of a mind to lock it up, as it has drifted into really, really bad territory.

BUT...

Keep it on point, per the rules.

Or, you know, else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224529.page GMT BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE! [/quote]

No other army in the game has to rely on a separate, expensive, vulnerable unit in order to be competent at what they do, though. Khorne Berzerkers don't need guys in the bushes spotting for them in order for them to be good at assault. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224561.page GMT
Another example. Say I own a super high end laptop, but the rest of my house I use candles and kerosene. Now go to my neighbor and he has electric lighting but no laptop. There is a concentration of technology here. Technically I have a higher tech level, generally the same however, but my neighbors has more obvious signs of technology.

As for BS, unassisted Tau have poor eyesight, they need their super high tech targetting systems to compensate while Guardsmen just need scopes and basic targeting systems to be equal. Then Tau have marker lights to boost them farther. IG tech doesn't allow that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1224576.page GMT FW at BS 4 are completely justifiable. Just get rid of the targeting array. As a Tau player that puts a targeting array on every crisis suit that isn't an HQ, I can in fact tell you that BS 4 suits do not wreck SM armies, they simply make it a more even match.

-Markerlights: A highly expensive, fragile, and finicky boost to the army. I love them, but all the marker lights in the army have to be shot at one target to have effective use. You normally don't see more than 8 marker lights in an army, and I've never personally seen more than 12. So you're averaging 4 ML hits a round, which is barely enough to strip cover saves for one unit, let alone boost the army BS.

-Useless units: Every army suffers from this, but Tau have the universally mocked HQ choice, and Vespid are widely regarded as a pointless unit, and the Skyray is a joke.

-Tanks: The turret guns for Hammerheads are great, no arguing that. But damn, give secondary weapon options that aren't Str 5 AP 5 so that one weapon destroyed result doesn't neuter the hammerhead.

-Shortening the board: Too many armies are being given abilities that allow assaults on turn 1, or allow units to come in from any board edge, or drop pod almost guaranteed armor kills within the 12" zone that the D. pod doesn't work in. Without some way to avoid or survive these kind of units, Tau will never last long enough to become competitive.

-Psychic Defense: With the direction Psychic powers look to be moving, every army is going to need some form of psychic defense.

- Where is the high tech?: IG way out gun Tau. Where is the high tech uber fire power they're supposed to pack? Railguns are nice, but it's hard to get more than five or six into a list. The 72" range is a red herring, ranges beyond 48" are nearly meaningless on the board. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225006.page GMT
-Yes, Firewarrior BS 4 IS completely justifiable. But so is IG at BS 4, Space Marines at BS5, which would require Scouts to be BS4, Chaos Space Marines to be BS5, and etc....

-I've seen very little problems with marker lights. I don't play Tau, so I can't attest to their expense, but they seem highly successful and very useful. If they're too expensive, make them a bit cheaper. Not every unit deserves BS4 all the time, deal with it.

-I wouldn't say Tau have an abundance of "useless" units, that would be like saying IG Stormtroopers and Ogryn are useless. They're not, same for Tau, just too expensive. So cheapen them. As for Ethereals, I've heard a lot of bad and not seen them do much, so they need some sort of tweak to make them valuable, though I don't seem their fluff point of being on the battlefield to begin with.

-I can semi-agree with your point about tanks. However there are a lot of other tanks with the same problem, Vindicators come to mine immediately, Eldar Falcons and Fire Prisms come next, along with their smaller craft (name escapes me for the moment), and IG Chimeras have no weapon options over S5 except for the Multi-Laser (S6 AP6). But for a Main Battle Tank, it might not hurt for Tau to maybe have some sort of fusion blaster hung somewhere.

-Board length has come up in other threads, and I agree. It is difficult to balance shooting and assaulting with general rules sets because only a few armies of the dozen are shooty, the rest are more assault, so delaying their assault phases slows the game way down for the rest, but making sure they can assault quickly pretty much ends the games for the non-assaulty armies. It's a difficult quandary, a delicate balance. But a rule for these armies that maybe turns the board for long range armies, seems completely plausible from a fluff standpoint.

-Yeah, there are more Psychic abilities in the newer editions, but they pretty much act like shooting attacks, and I would rather there be FEWER psychic abilities (I just don't find them very fluffy for fun... even though I am moving towards using more Battle Psykers, but they ARE fun to use).

-Tech is relative. Eldar are supposed to be more high-tech than everyone, but on the board they play a lot like a similar tech level. More and bigger guns doesn't make for "higher tech." They have an abundance of skimmers, the highest strength and longest range basic units weapon in the game's history. If that doesn't show "high-tech" then I don't know what. Tau don't need to be similar to Guard to be better.

My prognosis? Fix Tau counter assault units (Kroot and Vespids), make Firewarriors cheaper. The rest in anecdotal. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225495.page GMT BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225585.page GMT BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part[/quote]

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225616.page GMT
HQ: Allow a ground-based general of some sort. More, better special characters, maybe even better body guards..it makes no sense that the elite force guarding your commander is only BS 3 when every other army's troops that serve a similar function are better than the average trooper in most respects.

Elites: Make crisis suits cheaper or at least let them start with a burst cannon for free. 25pts for a crisis suit with nothing on it AND you have to take three weapons/wargear? Too expensive for 5th edition when faced with cheap nobs and nurgle marines that are fearless and get feal no pain for a similar cost.
I would alos like to see more elite options, I don't know what, but when you're only elite option is crisis suits...it can get boring; "Oh, hmmm I have 3 elite choices what shall I take, a crisis suit squad or a crisis suit squad?"

Troops:
Personally, I like firewarriors and have no problem the way they are, BUT, make them a couple of points cheaper, maybe allow a heavy weapon choice per 12 man squad, every other army allows at least that much.

Kroot. Power weapon options for shapers. Hounds and knarlocs are rending. Rework the "fieldcraft" to be +1 cover save, regardless of cover. Guns are assault 1 or an option to pay more and give them carbines.

Fast attack:
Remove the devilfish requirement for pathfinders. Maybe more weapon loadouts similar to other scouts in other armies.

Fix or remove vespid.

Heavy:
Ion head similar to executioner, small templates, heavy 3, currently no reason to use it.

Another kind of tank? Here again, choice is too limited, Tau need more flexibility.

General:
Cheaper markerlights if increased BS is not going to be an option. I retain my opinion that they're all well and good but you have to roll a 4+ to even paint a target to begin with.

Railrifles are rending and maybe heavy 2, maybe. It makes sense that a supersonic round would be a rending attack. Either that or dumb it down and make it like every other sniper rifle.

Kroot weapons should be assault 1; they're the only thing that Tau have that remotely resembles a close combat unit, please make them suck less.

Get rid of special issue restrictions on suit gear/weapons. There isn't a single one that's overpowered except, maybe, the failsafe detonator to prevent squads of suicide suits.

My two cents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225620.page GMT
Fire Warrior don't need a better BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE!

Give firewarrior teams more support capabilities. Give them heavy weapons in their teams and maybe special drones or abilities to support the crisis. They could have pinning weapons or special weapons or upgrades to make them a useful tool to pin down units so crisis etc. can jump back etc.

Don't just give everything the fix of "MAKE IT MORE KILLY!". Look at Grey Hunters, they balanced Space Wolves highly expensive HQ's with cheaper troops, but still effective, troops, but didn't let them take heavy weapons or sarges. If you wan't a sarg you have to take wolfguard and not be able to get a 2nd special weapon if you want to stay in a transport.

You see the synergy and the not overly powered unit they have going? Grey Hunters are great troops because they compliment the other choices in the codex. If they were the standard troops in vanilla space marines, well then they might be considered quite weak due to them not being able to carry heavy weapons and their lower leadership and lack of sarg.

Let the firewarriors complement their codex. The codex has screen troops (Kroot) so FW don't need to be that. Tank-busting units (crisis, railgun equiped units), Support Units (markerlights) fast units (Piranhas) "stealth/scout" units (Stealth Suits) etc...

Where do the firewarriors fit in? Well, in my opinion, as a pinning and/or mass firepower unit. Give them the ability to put out pinning shots (maybe in the form of super-pinning special weapons) and maybe some better firepower options ala special weaponry / heavy weaponry / drones. Sure Carbines pin, but I'm talking reliably pin.

So that's my 2c, the ideas are kinda thought on the spot so just take the jist of it. [/quote]

They already have pinning, problem is (and this have been discussed already) that any race WORTH pinning can't really be pinned so its kind of moot]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225627.page GMT BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part[/quote]

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

[/quote]

Meant 10 I must have been thinking of something else at the time. And If you're taking FW squads just to get an extra markerlight something is wrong with your strategy.

Typo I meant 10]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225948.page GMT BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part[/quote]

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

[/quote]

Meant 10 I must have been thinking of something else at the time. And If you're taking FW squads just to get an extra markerlight something is wrong with your strategy.

Typo I meant 10[/quote]

Taking a squad size where a team leader is justifiable then stacking another 10pts on an already squishy unit that only has a 50/50 chance of getting 1 marklight counter on a target isnt very effective. I dont take fire warriors for mark lights, its what my pathfinders are for. I also run minimum squads of FWs that dont leave the fish unless they have to, or very special circumstances.

Pathfinders= cheapest reliable source of mark lights, are very squishy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1225994.page GMT BS; Markerlights. Now because you have to make the choice between using them for Firewarrios (drop their price) or for bigger guns, isn't the Firewarrior's fault. That's generalship. If you weren't using them for their BS boost, then you'll be using them for knocking down cover saves. That doesn't seem fair either.

So, proposal: You don't like markerlights? Okay, get rid of them in exchange for Fire Warriors with BS4 but either slight price increase, or no price reduction or other improvements. You can't get all the cake and eat it too. Play fair, play even.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226014.page GMT
This is not about mark lights, this is about fire warriors.


I was responding to everyone else saying use mark lights use marklights, if your tau and your intelligent you probably already do use mark lights!

Yes they are squishy, yes they get a 4+ save, yes they get a 4+cover, im not dumb. Stop questioning everyone's intelligence Skin, it gets old. Because the fact remains, pathfinders are a static unit, and what assaulty army cant reach the other side of the board in 2 turns? You think on that for awhile before you say generalship, because yes its already used by using a throw away unit to save them for another turn. So since your mr all high and mighty super intelligent all the time, why dont you just go make a completely balanced game for GW? because i quite honestly get tired of reading your posts. You DON'T think of game balance for every race in mind on your suggestions which is rather apparent since you demean those who post back to you about balance issues.

*edit* Generalship, any time you wanna get on Vassal and have a row at each other to compare this quality PM me and we can try to have a 'friendly game' to point out different points of interest.


So yes i'd honestly preferr it if you'd 1. not post anything on a thread i start, or 2. Don't be passive aggressive in your comments directed at others. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226034.page GMT
On the other points and accusations, I think I have said it before. First, PM me if you have a problem with me, I don't mind people politely asking me to "tone it down," I know I'm pretty abrasive and "intense," for lack of a better term. I'm not 'trying' to insult anyone, nor am I 'trying' to be passive agressive (by the way, these days accusing someone of being passive aggressive is in of itself, a passive aggressive insult. There is nothing logically wrong with being passive aggressive, but it has become an insult for the most part, just a nice way of saying "You're an asshole." Again, PMs are preferred for such things).

I am not trying to attack anyone, but if you make a weak agrument, I'm going to take a sledgehammer to it. If it breaks and you didn't want it to, it should not have been there on my smash block, which is where anyone puts anything when they put it in "Proposed Rules." It's called that instead of "Agree with My Proposed Rule so I can Feel Better and Have My Ego Stroked."

The point of this forum is to be a crucible and you're supposed to be the heat shield for your idea. Defend it with all your might! And if others agree, they will help you. If they don't, they will add to the fire. It's all rather democratic.

I do appologise if I hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. My intent is to lance your attempts to change things in ways that may not be logically "fair." My intent with my previous post was basically; play the army you have, not other armies you wish you had. Tau are BS3 by table and by fluff, they have Markerlights for better BS which is why they were supplied.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226152.page GMT BS.

Tau need the cover save removing ability because we don't have barrage weapons, in fact we only have 2 weapons that ignore cover; airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP) which is limited issue, only usable by one model and only range of 18" and strength 4; the other is the flamer which, once it's used, is assault by whatever unit you used it on.

Give me more pie plates and BS4 and you can have marker lights.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226300.page GMT IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.

Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.

IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.

Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.

Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.

the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226407.page GMT
While intended to be anecdotal, you have stepped on another issue; Cover Saves. I am going to assume GW will eventually recant their generous Cover Saves in future editions, that is unless everyone in the game gets plenty of weapons to ignore them (which they probably will either ways). But I don't think everyone should get them. Heck! I am a little annoyed by all the weapons that Guard has that ignore them, but upon further inspection, the only units that do have them are highly costed, have no model representation, and/or have multiples of essentially the same unit.

What I'm trying to get at, and this in no way is directed solely at Tau, is that eventually Cover Saves will become like Armor 4+ is now; just about everything of consequences will ignore it. I can already see it happening to Armor 3+ against a lot of weapons and Eternal Warrior in the new Space Wolves Codex; a precedence of nullifying creep. I would temptingly venture that Guardsmen got their major price reductions due to the fact that they are SV5+, which is essentially useless the majority of the time and only weakly effective in the best of times.

If Tau give up all Markerlights, I would suggest a special unit that would purchasable to all Tau units (replacing the drones on Tau vehicles when bought to upgrade to BS4) called a "Sighting Drone" or of some sort. When purchased, it upgrades Tau BS to 4 (Note, this would be an upgrade, so any ability affecting BS would affect BASE BS, so while the Drone is alive, Tau BS is ALWAYS 4). Another option for Tau infantry is to instead purchase a "Targetting Drone," (only one Drone per infantry squad) which would reduce or negate Cover Saves depending on price. Vehicles would be able to purchase both Drones, replacing their mounted Drones.

How does that sound?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226410.page GMT
On the other points and accusations, I think I have said it before. First, PM me if you have a problem with me, I don't mind people politely asking me to "tone it down," I know I'm pretty abrasive and "intense," for lack of a better term. I'm not 'trying' to insult anyone, nor am I 'trying' to be passive agressive (by the way, these days accusing someone of being passive aggressive is in of itself, a passive aggressive insult. There is nothing logically wrong with being passive aggressive, but it has become an insult for the most part, just a nice way of saying "You're an asshole." Again, PMs are preferred for such things).

I am not trying to attack anyone, but if you make a weak agrument, I'm going to take a sledgehammer to it. If it breaks and you didn't want it to, it should not have been there on my smash block, which is where anyone puts anything when they put it in "Proposed Rules." It's called that instead of "Agree with My Proposed Rule so I can Feel Better and Have My Ego Stroked."

The point of this forum is to be a crucible and you're supposed to be the heat shield for your idea. Defend it with all your might! And if others agree, they will help you. If they don't, they will add to the fire. It's all rather democratic.

I do appologise if I hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. My intent is to lance your attempts to change things in ways that may not be logically "fair." My intent with my previous post was basically; play the army you have, not other armies you wish you had. Tau are BS3 by table and by fluff, they have Markerlights for better BS which is why they were supplied.[/quote]

I can't MAKE you do anything. So I believe request is the only viable intention.

So if you know your being abrasive to people, your doing it intentional, which I do believe being intentionally rude/disrespectful to other posters is against the rules, since your spouting them.





[quote=agnosto]I don't know about other Tau players but I would gladly trade in an unknown variable (markerlights) that you have to roll to hit with AND hope your markerlight producing unit doesn't get shredded for a permanent boost to BS.

Tau need the cover save removing ability because we don't have barrage weapons, in fact we only have 2 weapons that ignore cover; airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP) which is limited issue, only usable by one model and only range of 18" and strength 4; the other is the flamer which, once it's used, is assault by whatever unit you used it on.

Give me more pie plates and BS4 and you can have marker lights.[/quote]

Agreed, the request for better BS skill is the fact that markerlights are not reliable.






[quote=Kroot Loops]Fluff for IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.

Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.

IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.

Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.

Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.

the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.[/quote]

I agree here as well...and since changing board size is a drastic change to everyone's game..I think an increase of the killiness of the army..or a reduction in the variance in killing power able to be put out should be looked at..(ie not relying on marklights as your sole semi point efficient boost in killing potential)

Perhaps allowing 4 hard points? or allowing 3 hard points + 1 hardwired option for suits...dunno what to do with Firewarriors tho..since it appears everyone would have a caniption if they get Bs4


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=Skinnattittar]Oh no, you would have to sacrifice ALL Markerlights permanently.

While intended to be anecdotal, you have stepped on another issue; Cover Saves. I am going to assume GW will eventually recant their generous Cover Saves in future editions, that is unless everyone in the game gets plenty of weapons to ignore them (which they probably will either ways). But I don't think everyone should get them. Heck! I am a little annoyed by all the weapons that Guard has that ignore them, but upon further inspection, the only units that do have them are highly costed, have no model representation, and/or have multiples of essentially the same unit.

What I'm trying to get at, and this in no way is directed solely at Tau, is that eventually Cover Saves will become like Armor 4+ is now; just about everything of consequences will ignore it. I can already see it happening to Armor 3+ against a lot of weapons and Eternal Warrior in the new Space Wolves Codex; a precedence of nullifying creep. I would temptingly venture that Guardsmen got their major price reductions due to the fact that they are SV5+, which is essentially useless the majority of the time and only weakly effective in the best of times.

If Tau give up all Markerlights, I would suggest a special unit that would purchasable to all Tau units (replacing the drones on Tau vehicles when bought to upgrade to BS4) called a "Sighting Drone" or of some sort. When purchased, it upgrades Tau BS to 4 (Note, this would be an upgrade, so any ability affecting BS would affect BASE BS, so while the Drone is alive, Tau BS is ALWAYS 4). Another option for Tau infantry is to instead purchase a "Targetting Drone," (only one Drone per infantry squad) which would reduce or negate Cover Saves depending on price. Vehicles would be able to purchase both Drones, replacing their mounted Drones.

How does that sound?[/quote]'

I hate to admit it, but you made logical constructive sense here...have to give credit where credit is due

-as long as it were decently prices (please not another marker drone cost/efficient wise) would making it work like a shield drone be to drastic? IE: Same armor save]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226420.page GMT IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.[/quote]
This is highly contestable. For two reasons; (a) It is not supported by fluff and (b) there is a unit to represent what you are implying, which are Conscripts. Fluff in the past has supported that the Imperial Guard is majority made up of life long (or at least decades long) Infantrymen conscripted at ages as young as twelve and as old as eighteen (general minimum age range). They are highly trained and drilled before entering a warzone, and generally selected for frontline duty from the best of the pools they come from. There is a lot of negative fluff (mostly by Gav Thorpe and anti-Imperial authorship [by that I mean lime-lighting anti-Imperial actions]) which features the Conscript nature of the Guard during the worst of times.

For instance, Cadians. Their's is a culture revolving exclusively around being Elite shock troops, the best of the Imperium. They do not exist as a special unit or army selection, but as an aggregate representation of the Imperial Guard. So a large lump of skill is forced into one representation; the best of IG infantry to the hardened survival Conscripts. Then other sections exist to represent other possibilities; Conscripts, Veterans, Stormtroopers, etc...

[quote=Kroot Loops]Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.[/quote]
This may be, but look at where they come from; a generally physically weak and ill suited to combat in the greater galaxy race. So while they may be the best of the best of Tau, that does not necessarily mean they will be the best of the best of the Galaxy (see: Space Marines).

[quote=Kroot Loops]IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.
Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.
Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.
the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.[/quote]
I can generally agree with this. Most of what is Tau is not making the slot they are supposed to fit into. However that does not mean they should become a high-powered sniper force with abilities far out distancing even the venerated Eldar or even the less likely Imperium. Where other forces might beat their enemy with an unstoppable volume or antithetically a very small, extremely powerful, extremely elite (in respect to the Galaxy) force, the Tau are somewhere in between.

There is a general problem with existing there. That being they will not be the best of either world. Which is the basic problem with Tau, more than anything like BS or lack of leadership or assault ability. I am not saying there are not things to make them better, but that is something to continue to keep in mind.

At least, that is my opinion of where Tau should lie.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
Well, it would depend on the price of Firewarriors. Currently they are 12ppm, right?

So I would propose FW stay the same stats wise, min squad of six for 72pts with a free Sgt. model (is FW aren't Ld8, the Sgt. should be Ld8). Additional FW, up to the normal twelve, for 10/11ppm?

The drones, on the other hand, will have to be expensive, 36pts would be a good starting point to discuss for me. Remember, you are either hacking off cover saves or adding BS to S5 AP5 weapons, which is a pretty big deal! Same would go for their vehicles, but would not carry over to blast weapons (remembering that the blast originates from the center of the template, it just wouldn't make fluffy sense for the fragments of a blast to be computer guided). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226440.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226440.page GMT fw cost = 10ppm

Current cost to on average raise bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points

Our blast weapons (not counting air frag projector) get cover saves from the vehicle to target..not from the blast marker..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226519.page GMT bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points[/quote]
I don't know how you got this?

As for blasts, I meant from the marker against those affected, an AFP wouldn't be affected since it doesn't allow cover saves. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226538.page GMT bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points[/quote]
I don't know how you got this?
[/quote]
cheapest source of mark lights is pathfinders, minimum squad size 4 at 12ppm, also requires purchase of devil fish, minimum cost 80pts. Assuming you use the transport for FWs (which we all do..)

its 48 pts for 4 shots of marklights at bs3, so 50% hit. 2 marklights att 48 points.. 48/2=24 points per mark light hit on average.

[quote=Skinnattittar]As for blasts, I meant from the marker against those affected, an AFP wouldn't be affected since it doesn't allow cover saves. [/quote]

im ok w/ this]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226547.page GMT BS, rather than a gamble like it currently is, also, it should be discouraged from always being taken with a high points cost. Remember, IG used to pay 10pts just for +0.5 to their BS, and they were using S3 AP- weapons and on a squad of ten Guardsmen with SV5+ and Ld7!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226552.page GMT BS of all tau units that have line of site. You make the ethereal usful, paint a big target on him, and remove the BS bonus when he dies. Currently the unit is useless so it might work. Tau don't get warp powers nor any protection from warp powers so the Tau version of the librarian, the ethereal, is quite useless.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226640.page GMT BRB describes the IG just as I did. Fluff elsewhere, I don't know.

Tau could very easily fit as the elite shooting army in 40k. It wouldn't step on Eldar toes because they remain the elite all around army, with elite shooting units and elite assaulting units, as well as their speed advantage. It wouldn't step on IG toes because they couldn't hope to field as many guns. it would niche nicely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226727.page GMT
Rules > Fluff [/quote]

Maybe the cost will go up and other stats will drop in the next codex to reflect the OP's point?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1226949.page GMT FW at BS 4 are completely justifiable. Just get rid of the targeting array. As a Tau player that puts a targeting array on every crisis suit that isn't an HQ, I can in fact tell you that BS 4 suits do not wreck SM armies, they simply make it a more even match.[/quote]

But BS4 suits would be able to fire 2 weapons per turn unlike current suits with Targetting arrays (unless monat team leaders, but then you are greatly limiting the number of suits you can take). I not too fond of the idea of fixing FWs by making them SMs... I'd rather have something that can give them +1BS under certain circumstances, like squad size =>6 or if they did not move rather than a permanent bump. Then I'd change the actuial weapons. Makes the Carbine 15" range but assault 2 and make the Rifle rapid fire upto range 15" (so you have the choice of 1 shot at further range or pinning eitherway getting 2 shots at 15" or less making both weapon choices viable). Then 60 points for a squad of 6 including team leader and bonding, then 8 points per additional warrior.All this without effecting the BS and effectiveness of eth battlesuits which remain the Tau's best unit without becoming OP due to boosts to troop choices.

[quote]-Markerlights: A highly expensive, fragile, and finicky boost to the army. I love them, but all the marker lights in the army have to be shot at one target to have effective use. You normally don't see more than 8 marker lights in an army, and I've never personally seen more than 12. So you're averaging 4 ML hits a round, which is barely enough to strip cover saves for one unit, let alone boost the army BS.[/quote]

Target selection is key and concentration of firepower. Markerlights work fine and cost about right IMO, just drop the compulsory Devilfish and drop the points of a ML drone to 20 points and you'll be fine .

[quote]-Useless units: Every army suffers from this, but Tau have the universally mocked HQ choice, and Vespid are widely regarded as a pointless unit, and the Skyray is a joke.[/quote]

I don't think ANY other army as units as useless as Vespid and Ethereals. Vespid could be fixed by making their weapons assault 2 at the same points cost. Ethereals need a complete re-think.

[quote]-Tanks: The turret guns for Hammerheads are great, no arguing that. But damn, give secondary weapon options that aren't Str 5 AP 5 so that one weapon destroyed result doesn't neuter the hammerhead.[/quote]

Or more logically make S5 defensive weapons for Tau vehicles as their standard side arms are S5. THat would give them a little boost, not convinced they need more heavy weaponry. They are already one of the best tanks in the game.

[quote]-Shortening the board: Too many armies are being given abilities that allow assaults on turn 1, or allow units to come in from any board edge, or drop pod almost guaranteed armor kills within the 12" zone that the D. pod doesn't work in. Without some way to avoid or survive these kind of units, Tau will never last long enough to become competitive.[/quote]

You have to castle or you are stuffed against an alphastrike army. But Tau are a highly modile army so you could also just reserve everything. The only exception is the "scouts" as Pathfinders are static as bizarre as that seems. Maybe making the markerlight an assault weapon with shorter range would make the pathfinders act more like scouts? Give them inflitrate and remove the compulsory fish and they'd be used very differently. I don't know about you but I generally position Pathfinders as a SM player would position his Devastators... Not very [i]scouty[/i] at all!

[quote]-Psychic Defense: With the direction Psychic powers look to be moving, every army is going to need some form of psychic defense.[/quote]

True...

[quote]- Where is the high tech?: IG way out gun Tau. Where is the high tech uber fire power they're supposed to pack? Railguns are nice, but it's hard to get more than five or six into a list. The 72" range is a red herring, ranges beyond 48" are nearly meaningless on the board. [/quote]

MLs? Battlesuites, stealth generators these are all pretty hightech. Though they also need more longer range options on the suits and more cover ignoring weaponry all together.

Also the Kroot "only in woods" rule is dumb for a standard troop unit. For specialist armies sure having them terrain dependant is fine (like the old Catachan's list) but for a standard armies core troop choice this is just dumb. Remove it or apply it to everything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227141.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227370.page GMT GW's problem when it comes to fluff; inconsistency.

@ Flingitnow : Didn't you just say that they were point costed fine? Why make them cheaper? Why FW so cheap? That's only three points more over a Guardsmen for S5 AP5 longer ranged weapons and a 4+ armor save? If Guardsmen could do that, you know what every Guard player would be doing....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227438.page GMT MEQ (power weapons and power fists). I, personally, don't think firewarriors should be lower in price but I'd give them something to help them live one round of close combat.

@flingitnow: Concentration of firepower doesn't do a whole lot these days if you can't withstand an assault. 3 units of plague marines and you just spent your entire shooting phase to kill most of one unit; the other two are in close combat the next turn. You might pop a rhino or two depending on who goes first and if they popped smoke and how effective your markerlight shooting was but at least 2 units of PMs are getting to you and the daemon prince will jump there too.
Castling and ninja Tau are both extremely boring tactics (for the tau player and his opponent); unfortunately, they're all that seems to work currently.

Basically, Tau need to be better at shooting, better at close combat, or become a shooty horde like guard or orks to be a truly competitive army in 5th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227513.page GMT ML in general are points costed fine. I've not changed their points cost. ML Drones however are well over priced.

I thought a vanilla squad of GUardsmen was 50 points for 10 men. The FWs would be 60 points for the first 6 men...

4+ save is nothing particularly special these days where everything gets a 4+ cover save anyway. So yeah the weapon is better for 3 points but the initiative is lower and their WS is lower and they can't take heavy or special weapons, can't squad up into large units either and don't get orders. So overall that seems about right especially considering the start up price.

But you are right the fluff is not consistent and doesn't really tie too closely into the rules. If it was a squad of 10 marines should be 1,500 points of win.


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[quote]I'd give them something to help them live one round of close combat[/quote]

That's the last thing the Tau need. The fact they get massacred in 1 turn of assault is a strength as it allows you to then shoot whatever assaulted you. The last thing you want is the enemy to still be engaged!

What I've suggested would help the Tau shoot better. Fixing the Vespids gives them better MEQ firepower, giving the fierwarriors just that little extra weight of fire will also help against almost anything.

Making Pathfinders not have to take the fish means you could take more units and still keep your scorefish in reserve.

My final peice was to give the suits more long range options. As missile Pod asside they don't have anything at the moment, whilst the reduction in points cost of the marker drones means you could afford to take a few in the squads again increasing both the diversity and effect of your firepower.

I've heard people suggesting making the crisis suits T5 I think this would help too and make them less susceptical to small arms fire and instant death.

Yes you are going to get assaulted and you have to accept that you just want to ensure you can do as much damage as you can before hand and that you are as well equiped to return fire after the assault. If you position your troops well each of his units should only be able to assault one of your units.

I know castling is a bit lame and dull as is the everything is reserve tactic (for both Tau and Cheesdar). However they have slanted the game so towards assault (have done since 3rd Ed.) you have to accept in a purely competitive environment that is your only option and always will be with a mobile shooting army that sucks in CC. If you want a more fun game play less cheesy lists against each other...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227518.page GMT
I think you're blowing smoke to try and make anyone believe 4+ is useless. Maybe against big guns, which is reasonable, but against everything else, such as issue weapons (bolters, lasguns, etc..) you get your 4+ save and in close combat, half of those 5+ doesn't cover (I can only think of the Lasgun that doesn't have AP5 of the issue weapons. What's the AP on an Ork Slugga?). Yeah, there are a lot of power weapons/fists out there, but for one, they don't make up a third of the attacks in close combat, and the owning unit should be paying for them. Yes, they make up for the effective number of attacks, but that doesn't make SV4+ worthless at all. Why do you think Grenadiers were so popular for IG? I never took them, but a LOT of people did!

I think the main problem with Tau SV4+ is that it's what your aggregate has. So whenever an AP4 weapon hits your troops, you see a swathe of them get blown away! Which is shocking, agreeable. That does not mean it is useless.

A question I have posed to most all Guard players, and one to ask whenever you think something is "useless":
Would you trade 6+ Armor Save, for Guardsmen, for a single point off per model? The usual answer is an emphatic "Yes!" Even ask them if they would give up their Armor Save altogether, you'll hear "Yes!" a lot (I would take 15pts off per squad for no Armor Save, personally).


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Why not give Vespids the Power Weapons? They're jump troops, right? Why not have them be the "tech fighters" that Tau need, and have Kroot roled for counter assault tactics (but no power weapons). But you need a plastic kit for Vespids first...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227545.page GMT CC I2, WS2 and max squad size of 12 means you are all dead irrespective of saves anyway, so in reality it is of no use in CC. It helps if you are out in the open (I can't imagine why you would be in a competitive game) or if facing flamers or sternguard or other AP5 ignore cover weapons of which there are not a lot and which almost all mean you are then in CC so dead anyway...

It is not useless but it is no more effective than the stat line decrease mixed with the inability to take heavy weapons not to mention the difference is consistency between orders and MLs, not to mention the fact you can't horde them to protect against CC. Then 3 points for the improved weapon sounds about right.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227565.page GMT TA and then twin linked regular suits /w TA. Commander /w CIB and Plasma, bodyguard fireknives /w TA. Works well.

It's kind of ridiculous that there are so many armies out there with weapon skill equal too or greater than SM, but oh noes, no one can have BS equal to them!

BS 4 would hardly make Tau SM, as would be readily apparent to anyone who gets them into CC ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227581.page GMT
The simple fact of the matter is, Tau have Marker Lights, which while they may need some tweaking, Ballistic Skill is the least of Tau's worries...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227742.page GMT
Tell you what, give firewarriors BS4 and heavy weapons options and I'll take no armor whatsoever.


@Skinnattittar
Tau also lack unit choices. For HQ you can have a crisis suit HQ or an worthless ethereal, for elite you can have a crisis or stealth suit unit of 3. For troops you have kroot or firewarriors, for fast attack you have piranha, worthless vespid, or expensive pathfinders (expensive because they have to have a 80 point transport) and heavies you have a choice of broadsides, hammerheads, or skyray. A grand total of 12 unit choices in total.

Sure they have a good troop weapon but shooting takes a back seat to close combat in this rules edition so you get maybe 1 or 2 rounds of shooting with that great weapon before the entire unit is killed by 1 unit of pretty much everything else in the game.
A recent game I played I rapid fired into a squad of plague marines and killed 2 (lucky me) after the opposing player made his armor saves and feel no pain saves, etc. They got charged the next turn and all died after they lost by three, ran and were caught because their WS is 2 and initiative is 2.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227776.page GMT
Compare equal points values of equally comparable units. Which is why Space Marines are so popular to compare against.

We are not here to talk about the number of units Tau have available to choose from, or that Pathfinders have to buy a Hammerhead (which is an easy fix, so don't hide behind that). We're here to talk about Firewarriors, more specifically debating about them having BS4.

So about your on topic statement: I think you are using their Armor Save wrong, if that's the case, which is rather common, and not disrespectable. I, for one, think there is far too much cover on the average board, and my tables tend to be more sparse. I play Guardsmen, and often they are not in cover at all, and I do well, thank you.


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I think I posted this before, analyzing Firewarriors for points values.

Let's start by comparing them to your average Guardsmen at 5ppm. Well, FW have inferior WS and I, so let's say 1ppm for each. Ah! But Fire Warriors have superior weapons! S5 is at least 2ppm better, so add in that, and AP5 so plus 2ppm. Let us not forget that 4+ Armor Save either, Guard had to pay 20pts per ten, so why not Tau, too? Plus two points. Guardsmen had Frag Grenades, which doesn't really help them, since they don't do much in the way of assaulting, not are the effects particularly thrilling (they only work against enemy in cover). Firewarriors, on the other hand have Photon Grenades, which means assaulting units lose their additional attack for charging, very useful and has no caveats to effect (unless the unit is already locked in combat). I would say that's worth another point.

5pts(Base) -1pt(WS) -1pt(I) +2pts(S5) +2pts(AP5) +2pts(SV4+) +1pt(Photon) = 10pts.

Well, we have 10ppm for Firewarriors. It's not perfect, WS2 isn't a big loss for counter attacks (since so much hits on a 4+ these days, your opponent will have to be WS5 to make it worse), but also I2 acts a lot like I3, so those can sort of wash together to -1pts in the current edition. That makes 11ppm for FW.

On the other hand, AP5 isn't a huge deal most of the time, and while SV4+ is nothing to laugh at (like SV5+), it still isn't that big a deal with 4+ Cover being so ubiquitous. So lets say +3ppm for the two, which gives us a 10ppm Fire Warrior again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227834.page GMT
Unit availability does make a difference; if you look at every other army you'll note that they have units for nearly every need. While crisis suits are flexible, they are also expensive and available in limited quantities.

It is job redundancy that makes a successful army we can tout the marker lights all day but once the pathfinder unit is killed or the drones destroyed there are no more marker lights. However, with armies that have access to a variety of units that may accomplish the same job, losing one unit does not see the army fold.

Take guard for instance; someone shoots down your vendetta, that's ok you have battle tanks or artillery that can accomplish the same job.

Your units are generally not successful in close combat, that's ok you have numbers and the ability to "blob up" and access to heavy weapons and even powerfists; you can even buy veterans as a troop choice, a unit of 10 (including sergeant) with BS4 for 70 points, they're cheaper and have better stats than a firewarrior, access to heavy weapons and combat doctrine. Put your veterans in carapace armor and they're still cheaper and better than firewarriors. Your unit of 10 veterans can have 3 meltas, now talk to me about who has the best troop weapon. I'll shoot strength 3 weapons all day if the unit has 3 shots that have a better than 50% to hit and will insta-kill nearly anything they wound.

If you look back on my posts in this thread, I've alternated between being a fan of the BS 4 idea and the concept of being able to pay for units that have BS 4 separate from the average firewarrior. Either way is fine with me.

Armor saves are what they are and in the current rules, they're not that great unless you're in terminator armor. I don't think you can use armor saves incorrectly, if the ap of the weapon allows it, you roll; cover saves are more plentiful and more beneficial. If you want to leave your guard in the open, by all means do so but my Tau will use every advantage they can get. I don't see how there can be too much terrain considering most fighting, even in the 21st century, takes place in cities, not open fields.

None of this really matters; I started playing Tau because I like the fluff and the miniatures not because I thought they were an uber-army.


-----
Appended to respond to previous post.

Firewarriors do not come standard with grenades, they're already an additional 1pt per model and EMP grenades are 3pts. Firewarrior units also do not come standard with a sergeant that adds a +1 leadership, they have to pay an additional 10 pts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227961.page GMT
5pts - 1(Ws) - 1(I) + 2(S5 weapon) + 1 (AP5 weapon) + 2 (4+ Sv) - 1 (Frag grenades) - 1 (no spec/heavy weapons) - 1 (can't horde to help in CC) = 5pts

If you add photon grenades they should be 4 points each ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1227972.page GMT ...alot of people think that the new codex will make them cheaper ..[/quote]
Are the Tau getting a new codex?
Sorry if that is a silly question. I haven't been on the site in a few weeks.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228084.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228088.page GMT Sorry if that is a silly question. I haven't been on the site in a few weeks. [/quote]

Nothing in the immediate pipeline it is just that most people realise they are the army that most drastically needs a new codex except possibly the Necrons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228118.page GMT BS 4 Str 4 against T 4 is statistically the same as BS 3 Str 5, and that against T 3 BS 4 Str 4 is actually marginally better than BS 3 Str 5.

Here's the thing though. Tau are supposed to be better shooters. They can not soften a target up to finish in assault, because they lose assaults against almost any other unit, even if they out number them 4 to 1.

You're hung up one this whole thing that for some reason Tau should not be any better at shooting than a standard Guardsman, and that 4+ saves and Markerlights makes up any difference in the two. Look at the tournament scene. IG are top performers, Tau don't even place.

You can't even really blame codex creep, because some dark eldar players still do pretty well on the tournament scene.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228126.page GMT
No good fluff support.
No good history support.
Won't fix the problems Tau is having.
Creeps BS.

I will agree that WH40k is moving too much towards assault and warp powers, neither of which I feel are going to help 40k in the future. But Tau getting BS4, in my opinion, won't help solve their problems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228260.page GMT
No good fluff support.
No good history support.
Won't fix the problems Tau is having.
Creeps BS.

I will agree that WH40k is moving too much towards assault and warp powers, neither of which I feel are going to help 40k in the future. But Tau getting BS4, in my opinion, won't help solve their problems.[/quote]

You, yourself said:
[quote=Skinnattittar]I guess that's generally GW's problem when it comes to fluff; inconsistency.[/quote]

If fluff and "history" are a problem, the good thing about a mythical universe is you can always rewrite it or add to it (genetic medicine took away their bad eyesight).

I'm not pushing for Tau to be kings of anything but I want them to at least be competitive; I don't mind losing but I would like to win once in a while, even against Nurgle.

You're right though, there are many ways to make Tau competitive and not all of them result in an across the board bump in BS.
Heck, why can't crisis suits at least be BS 4? They're "elite" after all, even in the fluff they're described as long-time veterans that have proven themselves repeatedly in combat and they can't shoot any better than the new recruits. Seriously? Even people in our current age learn how to compensate for disabilities so poor eyesight can't be the overriding excuse.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228297.page GMT
No good fluff support.
No good history support.
Won't fix the problems Tau is having.
Creeps BS.

I will agree that WH40k is moving too much towards assault and warp powers, neither of which I feel are going to help 40k in the future. But Tau getting BS4, in my opinion, won't help solve their problems.[/quote]

All opinions that you have forcefully put out there as fact, while ignoring inconvienient pieces brought against your views.

I won't reiterate the arguments already put forth in this thread about fluff and history. It is vague enough, that BS4 could be argued. Clearly you are of the opinion that it isn't feasible...and that's okay.

The "problems" Tau are having are so hard to define in a thread.
You have the following people that enter with their opinions:
-the Tau players who want to change all stats to 10
-the Tau-haters, (mostly Americans who compare Tau to their arch-enemies, the Communists), who make useless comments about scrapping the Tau
-people who have differing opinions and are willing to compromise

The work done by the last category is often overshadowed due to wasted time on the first two kinds.

As I've said many times before, I hope a combination of mantaining/increasing Tau mobility where it is needed, special rules, and some slight additions to units can keep the Tau as a small, elite force...as opposed to Xenos Guard with a smaller variety of vehicles. I doubt GW will do this...it's not as good for model sales as dropping their cost and giving them grenades.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228298.page GMT BS earlier. I thought up another idea for them to give Tau players another tactical decision with them! Give the little buggers a 3+ Armor Save! It will tempt players to stack wounds on them. When a squad is light, they might allocate a wound to the Drone, hoping the better save might deflect a wound or two. Might save a Firewarrior but you lose the BS boost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1228622.page GMT No good fluff support.
No good history support.
Won't fix the problems Tau is having.
Creeps BS. [/quote]

I disagree with the first two however I agree with the last 2. I think the Tau need other options and I think the game balance would be better addressed in the other ways I've suggested.

I'm with you on the no across the board Tau BS bump and I don't think it is necessary. MLs should still be a main stray of the Tau army, they are a cool mechanism that is unique to that army an across the board BS bump would give the Tau more consistency but would remove their flavour.

[quote]-the Tau-haters, (mostly Americans who compare Tau to their arch-enemies, the Communists), who make useless comments about scrapping the Tau [/quote]

If they should scrap an army it should be the totally pointless and redundant mistake that is the Dark Eldar. However the Tau are supposed to represent the Americans they were designed to help boost GW sales in America. They are not communists they are an Oligarchy that righteously believes that everyone should follow their way of life and are crusading across the galaxy promoting it. Just like the Yanks with their religion of Democracy (the major religion of their country closely followed by the man made climate change religion). Tau are also the nearest thing to good guys in 40K (if the above comes across as yank bashing which it is not). So I don't see why Americans would be anti-Tau?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229408.page GMT No good fluff support.
No good history support.
Won't fix the problems Tau is having.
Creeps BS. [/quote]

I disagree with the first two however I agree with the last 2. I think the Tau need other options and I think the game balance would be better addressed in the other ways I've suggested.

I'm with you on the no across the board Tau BS bump and I don't think it is necessary. MLs should still be a main stray of the Tau army, they are a cool mechanism that is unique to that army an across the board BS bump would give the Tau more consistency but would remove their flavour.

[quote]-the Tau-haters, (mostly Americans who compare Tau to their arch-enemies, the Communists), who make useless comments about scrapping the Tau [/quote]

If they should scrap an army it should be the totally pointless and redundant mistake that is the Dark Eldar. However the Tau are supposed to represent the Americans they were designed to help boost GW sales in America. They are not communists they are an Oligarchy that righteously believes that everyone should follow their way of life and are crusading across the galaxy promoting it. Just like the Yanks with their religion of Democracy (the major religion of their country closely followed by the man made climate change religion). Tau are also the nearest thing to good guys in 40K (if the above comes across as yank bashing which it is not). So I don't see why Americans would be anti-Tau?[/quote]

I would agree that Tau are not Communists, but many Americans are still stuck in the Cold War mindset of, "Is it leftist? KILL IT!".

And then proceed to make mindless comments about how worthless, spineless, Communistic, whatever...the Tau are, and why they don't deserve to be a 40k army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229441.page GMT IT!". [/quote]

I always found this funny from a country that values democracy so highly which has exactly the same political ideal as communism...

I wouldn't even see the Tau as leftist they have a ruling elite who have to be obeyed without question how much more right wing can you get than that?

I've always seen the Imperium as their representation of the old British Empire (well drilled soldiers, insane genocidal leaders) with the Tau being the yanks (new upstart idealists that are destined to rule in the galaxy in the end).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229470.page GMT LoL! This thread is quite funny.
It makes me smile to hear people comparing 40K races to our society. I have just taped two lamb chops to my pet cat. It is now a six legged Tyranid.
I have a few armies already & if I was to get another I'd probably get a Tau army, just for a laugh. It seems to me though from what everyone is saying that I shouldn't bother. I've only actually played against Tau twice. Both times I found them kinda tough. The first time some guy kept popping out from behind a wall & shooting me, then jumping back. The second time I faced a tank with a rather large gun on it that kept pummling me.
That is about all I have to say on the matter.
My cat has worked out how to get the chops off.
It is no longer a Tyranid. Unless it is eating itself.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229523.page GMT 40K discussions or background. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229658.page GMT
I'm not speaking in defense of America, we have our skeletons in our closets too, just like everyone else, but the pot should not call the kettle black, especially when the kettle (America) is closer to a shade of blue than the pot which is deepest pitch (230 years of American history doesn't even begin to match the eons of the world's bloodshed, so lets leave the history lessen and dead cat laying there). Again, I am putting this stupid argument in perspective. Shut the hell up about politics and talk about the subject!

On the subject of what inspired Tau, I have always heard, from anyone really, that Tau represent Japan/China, and were designed and marketed to improve sales in those countries, which I am told didn't fair so well. The tech and style certainly matches the trend of Japanese and Chinese fiction (Anime), and the Tau "religion" certainly matches the caste system of Asia (rulers, workers, warriors, etc...). The only thing doesn't really match (historically) is the "union" of other races. Both China and Japan have long histories of xenophobia or at least cultural isolationism. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229664.page GMT BS on an army that has virtually no assault ability. Perish the thought. It's almost like they're ranged specialists or something.

Marker lights are great, I use them to strip cover for my BS 4 crisis suits and tanks. But marker lights are rediculously exensive, either 96 points for a pathfinder team that will be dead by turn 3, or 300 points for a SMT that might survive the game. And that's only enough marker lights to more or less gaurantee 3-4 ML hits on a single unit, which is enough to strip cover saves for one of your units, or boost the BS for two. and the number of marker lights drops rapidly as pathfinders or drones die.

24 FW firing 48 shots at a single marine squad at BS 5 kills 8.78 marines. at a minimum cost, that was 506 points that just went into killing 8-9 marines. And now your FW have to survive a turn being out on the board.

that's close to the cost of a fully diversified 9 Nob/1 Pain Boy squad with three PKs and a BW /w Deff Rolla. Would you care to guess how many marines that squad kills?

Now you'll have the people come in and say 'Tau are all about Synergy' and that's good. But there are ways to have synergy without needing 500+ points to kill 8-9 marines.

And just for amusement, 24 marines rapid firing at Tau at BS 4 kills 10.45

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229682.page GMT
Firstly I didn't cry "Tyrant" heck I liked the Imperium to our old empire with all the Tyrant and Genocidal tones that go with it. Lighten up. It wasn't the pot calling the kettle black but the pot saying to the kettle I'm black your grey lets neither pretend we're white

Back on point Tau need a boost they are the weakest army in the game and they need to be more shooty. However an across the board BS bump is:

a) Not really solving the problem
b) Making the one unique thing about the army semi-redundant or OP depending on how you look at it and would either way have to go.
c) Totally bland

Can we agree on that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229694.page GMT
I would agree that simply bumping BS would do little to solve their problems, it would help, but I don't think it's what is needed. Which is why I suggested a unit option to boost unit BS for Firewarriors and their vehicles (I always believed most BS3 vehicles need some reasonable way to boost to BS4, for tactical and fluff reasons), something already in their flavor; Drones. It helps their BS, adds to their fluff and depicts their dependence on technology, while adding a vulnerability, which is more interesting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229710.page GMT PKs and a BW /w Deff Rolla. Would you care to guess how many marines that squad kills?[/quote]

My friend that got me back into 40k, and plays plague marines, tells me all the time that I should focus fire to kill off one unit at a time; many people on Dakka say the same thing. My answer to that is, why should my entire 1500 point army HAVE TO fire all their weaponry to kill one unit? Besides, while you're trying to kill one unit, the other 4 are killing you.

Kroot loops is right, even playing mech-tau when your firewarriors jump out of their 'fish and get all shooty they still have to survive to the next turn so they can jump back in the 'fish and whatever you just shot WILL assault you after you don't kill all of them.

Yes markerlights are good at removing cover and yes crisis suits can be reliable MEQ killers but they're 1) expensive and 2) fragile as if you get caught in assault, you're just as dead as the firewarriors.

Meh, this whole thread keeps going in circles.

On an interesting note; I picked up a space marine force for cheap on e-bay and played it for the first time the other night; they shoot better than tau and actually survive assaults...and win! Sergeant with power fist, free special weapon and one heavy weapon choice per full squad of tac marines? yes please. For slightly more than the price of a firewarrior squad plus devilfish, I fielded a 10 man tac squad in a rhino and did 4x the killing and assaulted and won assaults.

No wonder GW sells more space marines, they actually do something other than die.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229726.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229737.page GMT Kroot loops is right, even playing mech-tau when your firewarriors jump out of their 'fish and get all shooty they still have to survive to the next turn so they can jump back in the 'fish and whatever you just shot WILL assault you after you don't kill all of them. [/quote]

? How can they possibly assault you? You have the fish in the way?

[quote]
On an interesting note; I picked up a space marine force for cheap on e-bay and played it for the first time the other night; they shoot better than tau and actually survive assaults...and win! Sergeant with power fist, free special weapon and one heavy weapon choice per full squad of tac marines? yes please. For slightly more than the price of a firewarrior squad plus devilfish, I fielded a 10 man tac squad in a rhino and did 4x the killing and assaulted and won assaults. [/quote]

Yeah Space Marines do everything better than FWs for a similar cost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229773.page GMT
? How can they possibly assault you? You have the fish in the way?

[quote]

I can't shoot him if the fish is in the way, TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229825.page GMT TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.[/quote]

Depends on how high a base you put the 'Fish on and there's nothing wrong with going all kneeling. Two turns of rapid fire should be enough to take him down.

But I get your point .]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229852.page GMT id hope your fish moved the max distance so its harder to hit >.<

point is skin... FWs blow either make them a little better, or cut back their prices so it frees up points for something that can kill stuff.

why fws blow

yes the 30'' shot is good but if you look at the races where this gun is effective your FWs are now sitting ducks, other races dont really care if you manage to get 1-2 kills into their 3+ save they will be on your next turn then your ENTIRE squad is squished Or just stand back up. Also the races that your not going to get squished in an assault...you know the ones who shoot you back.. well darn i have to make a moral check..and if you have played tau you KNOW your leadership is god awful! you might as well flip a coin to see if your guys break and run (yes its really that bad) oh but you can get bonding knives..why o why would you even be inclined to blow an extra 15 points for this on FWs? 10 for it on crisis suits that well..teams of 3 only works if the team leader stays alive..and well..it only saves 1 suit.

Compare: Marines ATSKNF
Nids: Synapse/fearless (or very good ldr)
Guard: orders to counteract low ldr
Orks: Fearless or bosspole
Eldar: Good ldr, or HQs to fix the problem
etc
etc

So the problem is..shooty army that isnt quite as efficient at shooty as it should be.. all squishy units... worst LDR in the game

although on the bright side of Point decreasing codex... $20+ for 1 crisis suit... hmm lol cheap enough i might be able to just field 12-15 in every army
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1229971.page GMT TLOS killed the FoF, unless I had all my models in the kneeling pose which would be cheesy. In any event that would only save me a turn when the inevitable power fist kills the 'fish.[/quote]

Depends on how high a base you put the 'Fish on and there's nothing wrong with going all kneeling. Two turns of rapid fire should be enough to take him down.

But I get your point .[/quote]

Power fist isn't really your concern. It's the 1-2 meltas that are in every marine squad. If you didn't kill them with the FoF, they move up 6", Melta your DF and your FW are now sitting ducks. Also FoF doesn't happen in a vaccum, there are usually other things in range to shoot at your Disembarked FW.

FoF relies on weight of fire. Once your FW squads start getting whittled down they lose their punch quickly (and even more likely, the pathfinder squad being taken out reduces their punch, 48 shots at BS 3 only kills 5.22 marines).

Now don't get me wrong, I win more than I lose with Tau locally, I even win small local tournaments with them. But people locally don't run these super hard lists, most marine armies locally don't have LR, the only one that does only has 1. And against them it's nail biting manuvering and shooting to pull out the win.

It's also highly annoying to be just about the easiest army to tailor a list for. We played a campaign, and the BA player ran rhinos, vindi, and baal preds against everyone else, but every time we played it's almost just jetpack assault infantry across the board]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1230091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1230091.page GMT
So true if you know you are fighting Tau you can quick assault list him to death. Outflank your whole army with SM or Space Wolves, or assault you in turn one with scouts, scoutbikers and Shrike squads etc etc etc...

Although the flip side is Tau are one of the best armies for tailoring to fight a specific army with Suit load outs and Hammerhead/broadside mix...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1230267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1230267.page GMT LDR fix
Few things cheaper
make marklights more efficient]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1236313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1236313.page GMT BS and thats why they have marker light, or else too powerful]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1251658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1251658.page GMT FW squad could have a 50% chance of increasing it's own squads BS. Or make Marker Drones half their cost. I could, however, see the argument for BS 4 suits with an integrated Targeting Array, but BS 4 FW's are not the end all answer.

Everyone always states, "They're Tau, there supposed to be really good at shooting!" but this is actually called "begging the question," or using the desired outcome of an argument as proof to support the argument! The Tau's strengths are in its technology, not it's stats. 30in St5 Rapid Fire gun, who else has that? 72inch St10 Ap1 gun, same story!

If you want to hit with Tau, you need Twin-Linking or a decent BS, which is what they have. You just have to pay for it, and it doesn't work all the time. A few tweaks to the Markerlight system, BS 4 Suits, and possibly cheaper transports and FW's would make Tau a force to be reckoned with. But since this discussion has been going on for 8 pages, I'm sure my point has already been stated. The argument is either "Tau deserve BS 4!" or "Shutup and use Markerlights!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254053.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254482.page GMT
Markerlights are fluffy and logical. Their targeting arrays compensate for their awful vision but they need their targets lit up if they're going to be truly devastating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254913.page GMT
Markerlights are fluffy and logical. Their targeting arrays compensate for their awful vision but they need their targets lit up if they're going to be truly devastating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1254914.page GMT AS A F&^%ING GRETCHIN!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1288107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1288107.page GMT AS A F&^%ING GRETCHIN!!![/quote]

And a trained Guardsman, and an Eldar Guardian...really its not as if they're unacceptably bad at shooting, they have other issues, but their ability to mow down infantry with rifle fire is not really one of them.

Jack]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1289436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1289436.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294060.page GMT
That's the best part of the Guard for me...their terrible and desperate situation, yet some individuals still find the resolve to perform acts of heroism. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294403.page GMT 40k books, you can really relate to a guardsman more than a superhuman space marine or a xeno scum.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1294472.page GMT
Me? I like to think that Guardsmen are well trained and krak shots. So when I see BS3, I take that to mean they are (relatively) good shots, where BS2 is more "rawr! I have a firearm!) and running around one handed pulling the trigger with only the most rudimentary aiming (like Orks generally do).

Well trained Tau, without their tech, are probably just too poor sighted to make good marksmen, but with their gear, they perform very well. Compared to Guard, who have nothing to rely upon but themselves and a basic optic on their lasguns (lasguns have optics, yes). Give Guard similar tech to what a Fire Warrior has, and you have Space Marines. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1295385.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1295385.page GMT
Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1295894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1295894.page GMT
Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.[/quote]I meant BS there bud.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296035.page GMT
Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.[/quote]I meant BS there bud.[/quote]

I assume he was referring to that as well. Tau tech would make IG much more effective...but it wouldn't happen due to the inherent 'Heresy' of the technology.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296121.page GMT
Space Marines? I think not. Storm Troopers, more like. Space Marines have significant advantages over Guardsmen that Tau-like technology would not replicate, namely their enhanced bodies and decades, if not centuries, of combat experience.[/quote]I meant BS there bud.[/quote]

I assume he was referring to that as well. Tau tech would make IG much more effective...but it wouldn't happen due to the inherent 'Heresy' of the technology.[/quote]

"Sir this tech could greatly help us exterminate our enemies!"

"Indeed they could. But using Soulless machines is well . . ."
[img]http://slother.poligon.net.pl/HeresyStamp.png[/img]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296148.page GMT
Me? I like to think that Guardsmen are well trained and krak shots. So when I see BS3, I take that to mean they are (relatively) good shots, where BS2 is more "rawr! I have a firearm!) and running around one handed pulling the trigger with only the most rudimentary aiming (like Orks generally do).
[/quote]

I'm sure you have an answer for this but don't penal legionnaires have a BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.

Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296170.page GMT BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.
Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.[/quote]Why yes I do have an answer for you. If I recall from the fluff correctly, Penal Legionnaires are Guardsmen who have behaved poorly, to say the least. So they would still have their previous marksmanship training at their disposal. As for Ogryns, yes, it is a bit of a mystery, one you have to get into my "way back" machine to find the answer to. So if you would.... please step into the way back machine.

F-ZAP!

Ooops, Space Hulk, too far back...

F-ZERP!

Ah, here we are, old Guard. Back now, Ogryn Ripper Guns double their number of shots every time their distance to their target is halved. So the closer you get, the more shots. If you are in base-to-base contact? Well, if the weapon can hurt the target, you may as well remove it, because the Ripper Gun would get infinite shots (I'm serious, that's how we played it)! In later editions it was always iplied that the Ripper had a ridiculous rate of fire to compensate for Ogryn stupidity.

And as an example of what a poorly trained, if at all, Imperial with a lasgun could do, look at Conscripts; they are BS2.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296230.page GMT BS 3? I mean, you're not going to provide a great deal of marsmanship training to cannon-fodder and you're not going to give them access to guns before a battle so they can turn them on you (ala Russian Commisar). I'm not even going to mention the "stupid" Ogryn having a BS 3.
Yeah, BS 3 is for crack shots.....I think I'll have to disagree with you there.[/quote]Why yes I do have an answer for you. If I recall from the fluff correctly, Penal Legionnaires are Guardsmen who have behaved poorly, to say the least. So they would still have their previous marksmanship training at their disposal. As for Ogryns, yes, it is a bit of a mystery, one you have to get into my "way back" machine to find the answer to. So if you would.... please step into the way back machine.

F-ZAP!

Ooops, Space Hulk, too far back...

F-ZERP!

Ah, here we are, old Guard. Back now, Ogryn Ripper Guns double their number of shots every time their distance to their target is halved. So the closer you get, the more shots. If you are in base-to-base contact? Well, if the weapon can hurt the target, you may as well remove it, because the Ripper Gun would get infinite shots (I'm serious, that's how we played it)! In later editions it was always iplied that the Ripper had a ridiculous rate of fire to compensate for Ogryn stupidity.

And as an example of what a poorly trained, if at all, Imperial with a lasgun could do, look at Conscripts; they are BS2.
[/quote]

LOL, thanks for the larf.

Forgot about conscripts, I just vaguely remembered that penal legion and ogryn had BS 3.

I can't believe we're still talking about this; I've resigned myself to the waiting game to see what GW will do to make Tau marginally effective again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296307.page GMT [/quote]

You think they'd just give them a gun with more shots, at a lower BS? Silly GW!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1296393.page GMT BS 3 really isnt...bad...its just not good...I mean hitting 50% of the time is alright...its just seems like shit for guard cause strength 3 AP - is shit when you hit 10 out of 20 in rapid fire against marines...than you need 5's to wound, than they get there PoS 3+ armor save....i mean i dump loads of las fire on marine squads and end up killing like 3....now tau players shouldnt be upset about BS 3. there guns are strength 6 AP 3? i mean kill marines with not allowing armor saves, and wounding on what a 3+?(dont know tau very well).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298567.page GMT
But in Tau player's defense; they do have an uphill battle with an old Codex. But I think the solution is to just adjust Fire Warriors prices, and fix all the other units in the army that are having problems. Meaning; fix Vespids, cheaper Kroot, and something about the Ethereals, I have never actually faced one so I don't know their problems personally (but believe me I have heard the whining!). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298613.page GMT
There is a reason you haven't face Ethereals! 50 points to make one squad have higher LD, and allows rerolls for all Morale checks within sight of the Ethereal. The downside is that if the Ethereal is killed...all Tau units on the board must make a leadership check...bad bad bad.

Kroot are great if the terrain is right.
I'd rather keep the Fire Warrior price, make them a bit better, and keep them with far fewer models than Guard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298725.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298781.page GMT FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1298964.page GMT FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed. [/quote]

The BS4 Fire Warriors don't take up an Elite slot...they are counted as part of the Ethereal's HQ slot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299156.page GMT
Assault 1 which is why no one ever takes them.

[quote]Meaning; fix Vespids, cheaper Kroot, and something about the Ethereals, I have never actually faced one so I don't know their problems personally (but believe me I have heard the whining!).[/quote]

I don't think Kroot need to be cheaper just have their field craft extented to all terrain to stop you being reliant on woods which cover some tables and aren't on plenty of others.

Ethereals are 50 points of nothingness. They give a boost to eth unit they are in and allow you to re-roll Ld tests. Which is fine until you work out that your entire army has to take a break test the minute he dies and he's T3 with NO armour!

Then you have the Space Pope who's 205 points and actually damages your army when he's around (by making them stubborn), and then makes you all run away when he dies. And as he has a retinue of 2 rather useless guards (they have no guns) and isn't an IC he can't even hide out in another unit or on a transport!


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[quote]Here's how using fluff, FWs can have a BS4; it's already in the codex. Ethereals are allowed and honor guard unit of FWs that can purchase BS for +2 pts per model. These are veterans that forgo the natural progression to battlesuit pilotdom (pg 33 of the codex).

This begs the question why crisis suits are BS 3 if this is the case but nobody's ever accused GW of being consistent.

There you go. BS4 FWs for 12 pts per model but takes an elite spot. Maybe throw in a heavy weapon option and boom, done, no new codex needed. [/quote]

Woo Hoo non-scoring FWs how incredibly usefull...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299521.page GMT
Assault 1 which is why no one ever takes them.

[/quote]

If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299751.page GMT If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.[/quote]

Exactly against horde armies pinning is useless as they are all fearless. Against MEQ they have great Ld and you are unlikley to cause a wound and will certainly struggle to cause more than one (which is what you'll need to actually have a chance of them failing).

Admit it though if they were Assault 2 you'd never take rifles! 2 shots to 18" range would make them more effective in general than having the extra shot to 30". This is the problem with them, they damage your FWs core firepower.

Make them assault 2 and 15" range and allow Rifles to rapidfire upto 15" and then you actually have a balanced choice. Or they could just stop EVERY horde army from being fearless...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299788.page GMT If pinning were effective against more units, then I would. So many units are immune to it's effects though, that the only odd use I find for Pulse Carbines is occasionally firing and then assaulting, if I am in a terrain heavy-map. Certainly not the best option, but it denies the opponent an extra attack and grants me 1 more than usual.[/quote]

Admit it though if they were Assault 2 you'd never take rifles! 2 shots to 18" range would make them more effective in general than having the extra shot to 30". This is the problem with them, they damage your FWs core firepower [/quote]

Your idea would break the system: 2 shots to 24" (move 6", shoot 18"), or 1 shot at 30"/2 shots at 15"
There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process.

[quote=FlingitNow]Or they could just stop EVERY horde army from being fearless...[/quote]

You cannot stop the dreaded Codex Creep!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299803.page GMT
Why not just have Carbines R12" Assault 2? With Pinning added in, as unlikely as one might think it is, it would still make up for the shorter range, and make for a more even trade with the Rifles. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299827.page GMT The BS4 Fire Warriors don't take up an Elite slot...they are counted as part of the Ethereal's HQ slot.[/quote]

Yes, currently; perhaps I wasn't clear enough in that it's my solution to bringing about BS 4 FWs. Create an elite FW squad with BS4 at +2 pts per model and maybe an 8 leadership. Problem solved.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1299829.page GMT There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process. [/quote]

You missunderstand I'd reduce the carbine range to 15". You don't get an ML wioth Carrbines just with pathfinders.

So either way you'd get 2 shots up to 15" (or 21" if you include a 6" move). Then the simple choice is pinning or standing still for one shot to 30". Much more balanced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300280.page GMT
Why not just have Carbines R12" Assault 2? With Pinning added in, as unlikely as one might think it is, it would still make up for the shorter range, and make for a more even trade with the Rifles. [/quote]

You know the answer to that Skinnittar! 18" will keep SOME dedicated assault units out of assault range for at least 1 more turn, while 12" would absolutely not.


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[quote=FlingitNow][quote]Your idea would break the system: 2 shots to 24" (move 6", shoot 18"), or 1 shot at 30"/2 shots at 15"
There has to be some counterbalance to the fact that you can trade a Pulse Rifle for a Carbine, and gain a Markerlight in the process. [/quote]

You missunderstand I'd reduce the carbine range to 15". You don't get an ML wioth Carrbines just with pathfinders.

So either way you'd get 2 shots up to 15" (or 21" if you include a 6" move). Then the simple choice is pinning or standing still for one shot to 30". Much more balanced.[/quote] 21" for 2 shots (pinning is relatively useless at this point), for 30" for 1 shot? I'd still take 21" every time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300348.page GMT
not that there's anything really wrong with this, as Dire Avengers still perform very well from skimmers, except that it would basically turn tau into Eldar clones without the close combat potential, which doesn't really seem right.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300391.page GMT
In all honesty I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for 12" range. I would suggest R15" S5 AP5 Assault 2 with no pinning as a full trade for any Pulse Rifle. Same I would do for Lasguns, except of course, with their profile of R12" S3 Assault 2, call is a Lascarbine. Shotguns I would give R12" S4 AP- Assault 3 (Assault 3 to compensate for the spread of the blast) which would be purchasable throughout the squad (say limit of 1?). But I would do a lot of things differently with Guard squads.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300532.page GMT
In all honesty I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for 12" range. I would suggest R15" S5 AP5 Assault 2 with no pinning as a full trade for any Pulse Rifle. Same I would do for Lasguns, except of course, with their profile of R12" S3 Assault 2, call is a Lascarbine. Shotguns I would give R12" S4 AP- Assault 3 (Assault 3 to compensate for the spread of the blast) which would be purchasable throughout the squad (say limit of 1?). But I would do a lot of things differently with Guard squads.[/quote]

Modern carbines are hardly different from "long" rifles as far as range, power and utility are concerned. A prime example is the M4A1 Carbine (the M4 provides the individual soldier operating in close quarters the capability to engage targets at extended range with accurate, lethal fire) so not sure where the range being an issue is coming from.
Pinning doesn't matter anymore as any unit you want to pin is either immune or highly, highly resistant; so yeah, we can lose pinning and I wouldn't cry.

Make a purchasable underslung grenade launcher that does something cool like slow down assaults (affected units move as if in difficult terrain).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300550.page GMT
An M16 with match barrel has an effective point target range of 950m. The M4 with match barrel? 550m for a target (I can't remember if that is area or point).

Your standard M16 has an area target range of 900m (shooting at a group) and the typical M4 is at 400m-450m for area target. A lot of literature will say otherwise, and even the Army TM's will say different. But that's what is has been in my experience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300576.page GMT
The point being you'd get the 2 shots to 15" either way. Pinning is kind of useless, but how often are your FWs going to stand still to pop off a 30" shot? The result is both are of fairly even value. And 12 FWs with Carbines would actually have a decent chance of pinning a marine or CSM unit particularly if aided by MLs.

So both options would have uses but in either case you'd get the 2 shots to 15".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300594.page GMT
An M16 with match barrel has an effective point target range of 950m. The M4 with match barrel? 550m for a target (I can't remember if that is area or point).

Your standard M16 has an area target range of 900m (shooting at a group) and the typical M4 is at 400m-450m for area target. A lot of literature will say otherwise, and even the Army TM's will say different. But that's what is has been in my experience.[/quote]

Naw, effective range for M4A1 is 500meters while the M16 is 550meters. You lose 50 meters (which noone but an expert marksman, not an average infantryman, would be shooting further than maybe 200 meters). Muzzle velocity, ammo, rnds per minute are all exactly the same or very near, between the two.

Area target range is not a valid basis for comparison; if you're shooting that far away, you're wasting ammo and won't hit squat (or a squat..har har har).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300620.page GMT
For me? I know the M16A2 with match barrel (not the standard barrel) can hit a point target, meaning center-mass, at 950m. How do I know that? Because I did it, a lot. In the cold. And rain. And wind. With no snivel gear because the damn weatherman said it would be 70F out with no wind or clouds. It sucked basically. We also had M4A1s, with match barrels and normal M16A2-A4 and M4A1s. We stopped using them at around 500m because they couldn't hit the targets reliably.

Besides all that, 40k doesn't use modern firearm analysis, but the old style when these things mattered more. Today? Well we can make much shorter barrels and maintain the same accuracy as cheaper, longer ones. M4 barrels, your typical ones, have higher end barrels than your typical M16, so their "effective" ranges are very close. But when you give them the same quality barrels, you'll see the differences between them better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300703.page GMT BS being 2, 3 or 4 through fluff, or by comparisons with other codexes or real life.

It needs to be the value that works in the game together with the other factors in play. The other factors can also be adjusted and this would change the appropriate value of the BS.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300743.page GMT
For me? I know the M16A2 with match barrel (not the standard barrel) can hit a point target, meaning center-mass, at 950m. How do I know that? Because I did it, a lot. In the cold. And rain. And wind. With no snivel gear because the damn weatherman said it would be 70F out with no wind or clouds. It sucked basically. We also had M4A1s, with match barrels and normal M16A2-A4 and M4A1s. We stopped using them at around 500m because they couldn't hit the targets reliably.

Besides all that, 40k doesn't use modern firearm analysis, but the old style when these things mattered more. Today? Well we can make much shorter barrels and maintain the same accuracy as cheaper, longer ones. M4 barrels, your typical ones, have higher end barrels than your typical M16, so their "effective" ranges are very close. But when you give them the same quality barrels, you'll see the differences between them better.[/quote]

I was never issued a match barrel and you missed my point entirely.

If we, dumb monkeys in this day and age can improve weapon systems to the point where the differences between a "rifle" and "carbine" effective threat range are non-existant, what will armies 40k years in the future be able to do?

Again, we're talking about, or should be, average soldiers using average equipment. We can sit here all day and talk about how we've used specialized equipment to hit far-flung targets but it has little to do with an average soldier with an average weapon and what the DoD defines as maximum effective range, "The maximum distance at which a weapon may be expected to be accurate and achieve the desired result." and for the comparison that I used, the M16 (rifle) and the M14A1 (carbine) have nearly the same maximum effective range (50 meters difference).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300841.page GMT
I whipped out my handy-dandy Janes Guide to check, and the M4 does have an "effective range" of 500m, and the M16 has an "effective range" of 550m. It doesn't say if either is point or area targets, but my recent previous point still stands, and we're getting off topic.

I think having a Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine, one with full and the other half ranges is fluffy and fine. I would also say the same for Lasguns and Lascarbines. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300885.page GMT
I whipped out my handy-dandy Janes Guide to check, and the M4 does have an "effective range" of 500m, and the M16 has an "effective range" of 550m. It doesn't say if either is point or area targets, but my recent previous point still stands, and we're getting off topic.

I think having a Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine, one with full and the other half ranges is fluffy and fine. I would also say the same for Lasguns and Lascarbines. [/quote]

Point targets.

I think we can all agree that rapid fire should be half the range of the weapon and not the current 12". As to pulse carbines, assault 1 at range of 18" and assault 2 at range of 9" would be different and not over powering.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1300917.page GMT
Jack]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302055.page GMT
The purpose of an assault weapon is to let you fire and assault; clearly Tau never want to.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302155.page GMT
The purpose of an assault weapon is to let you fire and assault; clearly Tau never want to.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's the problem. Another option would be to replace the pinning affect with a grenade that makes enemy units that take a casualty from carbine fire treat their next movement phase as moving through rough terrain. Get some real use out of the underslung grenade launcher as pinning is useless now vs. any unit that's worth pinning.

Heavy 2 on the pulse rifle's not a bad idea at all but may be a bit OP considering S5 AP5 @ 30"....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302610.page GMT OP considering S5 AP5 @ 30"....[/quote]

Its only 6 more inches of effective range for on foot firewarriors versus the carbine, but lets them do the same damage at 30 inches that bolter marines manage at 12 basically. I think the most useful part of this would be giving them enough shots to have a fair chance of bringing down light vehicles at range since they lack in squad anti vehicle weaponry and tau anti tank tends to currently by powerful but in limited quantity which can make dealing with large numbers of lighter mechanized units hard.

Jack]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302910.page GMT
I dunno, there's lots of good ideas to keep them different and more effective. I'd hate to have to write the codex because of the options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302998.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1302998.page GMT
I dunno, there's lots of good ideas to keep them different and more effective. I'd hate to have to write the codex because of the options.[/quote]

Or just make Rapid Fire at 15". Then the tactic of jumping out of the Fish to RF is still viable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1303349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1303349.page GMT 1. i cant believe this thread is still alive i'm proud to have started it lol

2. I recently played 2 games today where i had 6 suits base BS 4, 3 suits Base BS 4 and twinlinked (my list is posted in Army list section 1,750) It also had 8 pathfinders in the list.

This being said, it did not make the suits over powered, markerlights were still used to increase the BS of the suits to BS 5, but it allowed for more marklights to be devoted to removing that ever present cover save..


I think that there needs to be a balance made between either.. tau models becoming MUCH cheaper and for Crisis squad sizes to be increased to allow compensation for the loss of wounds getting through to targets that would otherwise get shredded by VERY high costing weapon and said platforms. Especially considering that Tau have effectively no anti cover killing weapons..AFP? please.

These points being made, ive played many games w/ varying amount of suits that are at BS 4. What it comes down to right now is, running suits at BS 4, actually reduces the average wounds you throw on target, yet decreases the variance (meaning you more consistently give wounds)

BUT!!!

If suits/Fws were increase to BS 4, it would just reinforce the role of marklights being used to strip cover saves, and reduce the need for a AoE Cover ignoring weapon (blast weapon) it would in no way make marklights redundant! and for those that thing it would, try playing a game vs a smart player (one who uses cover.) and running all your suits/fws at BS 4, it will increase your wounds marginally. Then try the same game with some marklights thrown in with those suits. This is a challange to those who think it will unbalance the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1314390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1314390.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317075.page GMT BS 4, and it doesn't make them OP.

However have my fellow Tau players seen the Hazard suits load outs from Forge World? three suits that can, depending on load out, put out up to 18 melta shots, or 24 str 4 AP 4 Rending shots, or 6 Str 5 AP 6 large blasts that ignore cover?

If that reflects things to come for Tau, I guess I can live with BS 3 if they'll give us enough ridiculous fire power on a deep striking suit team to utterly annihilate a squadron of Leman Russ tanks... on the front armor.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317224.page GMT BS 4, and it doesn't make them OP.

However have my fellow Tau players seen the Hazard suits load outs from Forge World? three suits that can, depending on load out, put out up to 18 melta shots, or 24 str 4 AP 4 Rending shots, or 6 Str 5 AP 6 large blasts that ignore cover?

If that reflects things to come for Tau, I guess I can live with BS 3 if they'll give us enough ridiculous fire power on a deep striking suit team to utterly annihilate a squadron of Leman Russ tanks... on the front armor.[/quote]

I hope this isn't the direction things go for the Tau...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317579.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317612.page GMT
Im down w/ dishing out some high quality shots ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1317622.page GMT
shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time.[/quote]
Well that is certainly a *duh* theory. By this logic humans would be just as skilled as eldar are since human life is "compressed".
Bet people would mind WS5 IG.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318777.page GMT
shorter life doesnt mean less skilled, just that more information and life is compressed into a shorter period of time.[/quote]
Well that is certainly a *duh* theory. By this logic humans would be just as skilled as eldar are since human life is "compressed".
Bet people would mind WS5 IG.[/quote]

and the rest goes on to say that due to the shorter sleep cycles of tau that they do infact regain alot of those hours that humans are sleeping/wasting.

ontop of that you have to factor in guard are teens taken from their worlds given a gun and 'trained' to fight.

Tau Fire caste are born, raised, trained to fight their entire lives, it is their purpose for existing.

If someone argues oh well Fire warriors shouldnt be any more skilled than BS 3, fine take Crisis suit pilots, these are the best of the best, extremely experienced (so aged) fire warriors...VETERANS..yet they still have BS 3 with far more experience/technological equipment? Doesnt make much sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318881.page GMT
Tau Fire caste are born, raised, trained to fight their entire lives, it is their purpose for existing.

If someone argues oh well Fire warriors shouldnt be any more skilled than BS 3, fine take Crisis suit pilots, these are the best of the best, extremely experienced (so aged) fire warriors...VETERANS..yet they still have BS 3 with far more experience/technological equipment? Doesnt make much sense.[/quote]

Exactly. In fact 'el's in a FW squad should be BS4 for the same reason and pathfinders too since they're the cream of the crop.

But you're now going to see several posts screaming to high heaven that Tau shouldn't be better than a teenager, taken from his home planet and given a lasgun. In these posts you'll see mention of fluff and tau poor eyesight, short lifespan, etc. I'm just saying because it's all been typed over and over in this thread and others.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318929.page GMT
Tau Fire caste are born, raised, trained to fight their entire lives, it is their purpose for existing.

If someone argues oh well Fire warriors shouldnt be any more skilled than BS 3, fine take Crisis suit pilots, these are the best of the best, extremely experienced (so aged) fire warriors...VETERANS..yet they still have BS 3 with far more experience/technological equipment? Doesnt make much sense.[/quote]

Exactly. In fact 'el's in a FW squad should be BS4 for the same reason and pathfinders too since they're the cream of the crop.

But you're now going to see several posts screaming to high heaven that Tau shouldn't be better than a teenager, taken from his home planet and given a lasgun. In these posts you'll see mention of fluff and tau poor eyesight, short lifespan, etc. I'm just saying because it's all been typed over and over in this thread and others.
[/quote]

that it has... over and over again..

my argument already refutes the shorter life span as they waste less time sleeping

the eyesight has been refuted because its not that they actually have problems seeing, its the rate their eyes refresh or some such stuff but at long distances makes no difference which has been argued by another person in alot of detail explaining it scientifically, so i dont feel the need to try ... though i will add..what on earth do people think those mechanical things stick out the sides of their heads are? oh my..they improved their eyesight with technology...why on earth would a technological and innovative race so such a thing? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318953.page GMT LOL
Talk about grasping straws. You sound like a hard core Tau fanboy who will excuse just about anything in order to make them better.
Care to show me at least one source that shows the relationship in organisms between sleep cycles and IQ?
As far as I know bears must be the very dumbest creatures in creation, sleeping all winter through and all that. lol

Taking your logic space marines should then be WS6 BS6 since they only sleep 2 hours a day, train every day from morning to "sleep" and live a hundred plus years but I guess that wouldnt sit well with you since it would make them better at shooting then tau.

And how do you explain the poor eye sight of the tau? Glasses?



[quote]ontop of that you have to factor in guard are teens taken from their worlds given a gun and 'trained' to fight.

Tau Fire caste are born, raised, trained to fight their entire lives, it is their purpose for existing.[/quote]

Tell you what, read gaunts ghosts first or GWs own fluff on Cadians and then we can talk about human warriors and their traning vs firewarriors, their short lifespans, lack of experiance vs as varied enemies as their human counterparts...not to mention the superb eye signt the human guard has


[quote]f someone argues oh well Fire warriors shouldnt be any more skilled than BS 3, fine take Crisis suit pilots, these are the best of the best, extremely experienced (so aged) fire warriors...VETERANS..yet they still have BS 3 with far more experience/technological equipment? Doesnt make much sense.
[/quote]
This I agree to. Suit pilots, being the very best of the bunch should definately have BS4, if for any otehr reason that the suits optics will surely make up for the pilots poor eye signt.
BUT, and here is the kicker, making them even better will also mean upping their point cost!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1318986.page GMT LOL
Talk about grasping straws. You sound like a hard core Tau fanboy who will excuse just about anything in order to make them better.
Care to show me at least one source that shows the relationship in organisms between sleep cycles and IQ?
As far as I know bears must be the very dumbest creatures in creation, sleeping all winter through and all that. lol

Taking your logic space marines should then be WS6 BS6 since they only sleep 2 hours a day, train every day from morning to "sleep" and live a hundred plus years but I guess that wouldnt sit well with you since it would make them better at shooting then tau.

And how do you explain the poor eye sight of the tau? Glasses?



[quote]ontop of that you have to factor in guard are teens taken from their worlds given a gun and 'trained' to fight.

Tau Fire caste are born, raised, trained to fight their entire lives, it is their purpose for existing.[/quote]

Tell you what, read gaunts ghosts first or GWs own fluff on Cadians and then we can talk about human warriors and their traning vs firewarriors, their short lifespans, lack of experiance vs as varied enemies as their human counterparts...not to mention the superb eye signt the human guard has


[quote]f someone argues oh well Fire warriors shouldnt be any more skilled than BS 3, fine take Crisis suit pilots, these are the best of the best, extremely experienced (so aged) fire warriors...VETERANS..yet they still have BS 3 with far more experience/technological equipment? Doesnt make much sense.
[/quote]
This I agree to. Suit pilots, being the very best of the bunch should definately have BS4, if for any otehr reason that the suits optics will surely make up for the pilots poor eye signt.
BUT, and here is the kicker, making them even better will also mean upping their point cost!
[/quote]

just means you dont have to add 10pts for a targetting array, and since pretty much everones units went down in cost..they should stay bout the same but good call]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319025.page GMT GWs own fluff on Cadians and then we can talk about human warriors and their traning vs firewarriors, their short lifespans, lack of experiance vs as varied enemies as their human counterparts...not to mention the superb eye signt the human guard has[/quote]

Black Library novels are absolute drivel and in no way should they be considered game 'fluff' since the vast majority are only written from the perspective of the Imperium. Less than 10 Spehce Muhrines in BL novels fought off an entire craft world of Eldar, without a single casualty. According to BL writing, there is absolutely no reason three SM in a leaky rowboat hasn't crushed every non-human race in the galaxy, never mind that all it took to turn the greatest primarch against the Emperor was going, 'Nooooo! You should have the Glory!!!111!!!'

I mean if we're going to use Black Library Novels, what about Firewarrior? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319185.page GMT BL novels fought off an entire craft world of Eldar, without a single casualty. According to BL writing,[/quote]
Show me the canon GW fluff then that tells us imperial guardsmen are sleepy whimps who receive next to no training and cant shoot straight!

Besides GW canon fluff tells an SM chapter almost obliterated a whole craftworld (those usually contain billions of eldar) so what is your point?

[quote]just means you dont have to add 10pts for a targetting array, and since pretty much everones units went down in cost..they should stay bout the same but good call[/quote]
Maybe.
How many points do you suggest firewarriors should be then?
And regarding the WS4 I´m far far from convinced. You need to do better then compare sleep cycles to warrant a WS4, not with S5 long range rifles.

I know tau are underpowered right now (but then again the ninja tau should be scrapped altogether too).
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319228.page GMT BL novels fought off an entire craft world of Eldar, without a single casualty. According to BL writing,[/quote]
Show me the canon GW fluff then that tells us imperial guardsmen are sleepy whimps who receive next to no training and cant shoot straight!

Besides GW canon fluff tells an SM chapter almost obliterated a whole craftworld (those usually contain billions of eldar) so what is your point?

[quote]just means you dont have to add 10pts for a targetting array, and since pretty much everones units went down in cost..they should stay bout the same but good call[/quote]
Maybe.
How many points do you suggest firewarriors should be then?
And regarding the WS4 I´m far far from convinced. You need to do better then compare sleep cycles to warrant a WS4, not with S5 long range rifles.

I know tau are underpowered right now (but then again the ninja tau should be scrapped altogether too).
[/quote]

How about the BRB? The turn over of new recruits and casualties in the IG runs into the millions daily, the turn over is so high that no one knows what the actual strength of the IG is. Regiments are raised on a planet, given rudimentary training, shipped to the war zone, and thrown into battle.

Even the most professional IG regiment, the Cadians, has a nearly identical birthrate and death rate, which means it's a stagnant population. Have you ever been to a country ravaged recently by war? You'll find an interesting phenomenon, 60% or more of the population will be under the age of 18.

A SM chapter with all it's forces is a far cry from less than 10 space marines with no heavy support.

Besides, at least in 'canon' fluff, Every faction gets their chance to shine. I'm more concerned about the table top. There is no reason the BA should have gotten this super skimmer of death that they are getting, but they are. GW has to make every army viable on the table, they aren't the only game in town anymore where we'll sit for six years hoping we'll be fixed 'next codex'. If they continue ramping the Imperium up and maintaining Xenos in a sub-par existance, I'll migrate with my dollars over to Warmachine/Hordes.

And I'm pretty sure you mean to say BS 4, not WS 4]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319306.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319306.page GMT
1) Aren't regular Guardsmen the representation for Cadians? So if we're going to use Cadian fluff to compare to Tau fluff, then Cadians are definitely superior in training. Not only are they raised from birth to be extreme warriors, but everything about their entire culture is driven to that end. By the time they are 12 years old, they are already performing live fire exercises against other Cadians! (do Tau ever even do live fire exercises?) I'm going to guess they have their weapons set to "stun," which Las weapons reportedly have. If not, damn, I wouldn't want to mess with those kids....

2) The "Guardsmen" that are quickly recruited and poorly trained (those some people refer to as "having a lasgun thrust into their hands and told 'go!'") are what are called "Conscripts," and are pitiful in a model for model comparison to both Guardsmen and Fire Warriors.

3) If Tau Sergeants (however you call them) are the "betters," then shouldn't Guard Sergeants and Space Marine Sergeants also have +1BS? What about the Veteran Sergeants? Shouldn't they also be +1BS compared to their normal Veteran components? Then wouldn't the commanders be an additional +1BS too? I mean, not only are they veterans, but their also even better than the Sergeants! So that would put a Guard Company Commander at BS6 and Space Marine Captains at BS7! I'm not implying this is good logic, I am showing that just because you're a "veteran" or "Sergeant" doesn't mean your BS should be immediately bumped.

4) According to most IG fluff, the regular (codex) Guardsmen are actually seasoned Veterans, but those of the Veteran squads are the even more seasoned survivors, the nastiest, meanest, and toughest that have survived. Apparently, the milling hordes of millions of IG conscripts are not actually properly represented in game terms, the closest being Conscript Squads, which seem to represent the FNGs, if you ask me.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319461.page GMT
But I'm tired of this circular argument. It breaks down to three points of view basically:

1. FW should have BS4, as it fits with the army theme of focused ranged fire
2. BS 4 would be over powered, despite the overall increase in power (at lower prices) in the 5e Codeices
3. Skinnattittar; who somehow believes that the IG is the ultimate fighting force in the galaxy and nothing should be better than them]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319618.page GMT Las weapons reportedly have.[/quote]

Aren't lasgun always set to stun? Or is it normally set to lightly graze... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319717.page GMT Las weapons reportedly have.[/quote]Aren't lasgun always set to stun? Or is it normally set to lightly graze... [/quote]Nah, they usually keep them set to "illuminate." ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319724.page GMT
But at least you get the emperor's finest paper armour!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319738.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319749.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319765.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319788.page GMT
If that requires pulse rifles with RF15" and all crisis suits getting a free targetting matrix, then you write those rules and concoct a bit of fluff to justify it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319792.page GMT
If that requires pulse rifles with RF15" and all crisis suits getting a free targetting matrix, then you write those rules and concoct a bit of fluff to justify it.[/quote]But isn't that kind of like putting the cart before the horse? By that I mean; ass backwards.

That's how you get Ork Custom Force Fields and Teleportas. Fluffwise, they make practically no sense why they would get them and other armies not; not Eldar, not Tau, not Space Marines, not even Inquisitors and Deamon Hunters! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319822.page GMT
The demands of gameplay take precedence over fluff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319825.page GMT The demands of gameplay take precedence over fluff.[/quote]Yes, but not the only thing to consider when writing rules. I would even say, playability should be the last thing addressed, but the proving feature.

Why? How? Well, in reality, just about any combat tactic technologically and physically possible has been attempted or considered at one point or another. Just look at the old method marching in tight formation up to another unit, then blasting each other at point blank range; at one point that was considered the most tactically pheasable mode of combat! But it went extinct. Look at Vietnam; with only the most basic of an assault rifle, most basic of ordinance (grenades, rocket launchers, etc...), the Chinese were able to hold back the American military force. Why? Not because they could tactically defeat the Americans on an equal playing field, but because the political environment allowed it to be so. How did the American Revolutionary forces defeat one of the most powerful empires on earth? The environment made such a victory/defeat possible.

Same thing goes for war gaming. An army with fluff that rends it unable to compete with those that exist is an army that is doomed to become extinct. Same goes with their fluff. However, concessions can be made for good fluff. It's a delicate balance to make a good game and GW has done it for over twenty years with reasonable success. No need to make hack-job changes for the sake of making an army playable, especially with one with so many more options than simply boosting their BS for no [b]good[/b] reason. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319860.page GMT The demands of gameplay take precedence over fluff.[/quote]Yes, but not the only thing to consider when writing rules. I would even say, playability should be the last thing addressed, but the proving feature.

Why? How? Well, in reality, just about any combat tactic technologically and physically possible has been attempted or considered at one point or another. Just look at the old method marching in tight formation up to another unit, then blasting each other at point blank range; at one point that was considered the most tactically pheasable mode of combat! But it went extinct. Look at Vietnam; with only the most basic of an assault rifle, most basic of ordinance (grenades, rocket launchers, etc...), the Chinese were able to hold back the American military force. Why? Not because they could tactically defeat the Americans on an equal playing field, but because the political environment allowed it to be so. How did the American Revolutionary forces defeat one of the most powerful empires on earth? The environment made such a victory/defeat possible.

Same thing goes for war gaming. An army with fluff that rends it unable to compete with those that exist is an army that is doomed to become extinct. Same goes with their fluff. However, concessions can be made for good fluff. It's a delicate balance to make a good game and GW has done it for over twenty years with reasonable success. No need to make hack-job changes for the sake of making an army playable, especially with one with so many more options than simply boosting their BS for no [b]good[/b] reason. [/quote]

Good read, To bad thats YOUR OPINION. Which when it gets down to it... opinions arent what really matters..it will be what the developers see math wise, and on the table, not to mention what looks good in the company wallet

but lets compare maths..

Whats your guardsman cost you?
Firewarriors are 10, bs 3, and ld 7, cant take heavy weapons, cant take CC weapons, there is no ldr fix for stopping them running off table.

please explain all of those Math/Cost wise as to why they should NOT get beefed up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319882.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319891.page GMT The demands of gameplay take precedence over fluff.[/quote]Yes, but not the only thing to consider when writing rules. I would even say, playability should be the last thing addressed, but the proving feature.

Why? How? Well, in reality, just about any combat tactic technologically and physically possible has been attempted or considered at one point or another. Just look at the old method marching in tight formation up to another unit, then blasting each other at point blank range; at one point that was considered the most tactically pheasable mode of combat! But it went extinct. Look at Vietnam; with only the most basic of an assault rifle, most basic of ordinance (grenades, rocket launchers, etc...), the Chinese were able to hold back the American military force. Why? Not because they could tactically defeat the Americans on an equal playing field, but because the political environment allowed it to be so. How did the American Revolutionary forces defeat one of the most powerful empires on earth? The environment made such a victory/defeat possible.

Same thing goes for war gaming. An army with fluff that rends it unable to compete with those that exist is an army that is doomed to become extinct. Same goes with their fluff. However, concessions can be made for good fluff. It's a delicate balance to make a good game and GW has done it for over twenty years with reasonable success. No need to make hack-job changes for the sake of making an army playable, especially with one with so many more options than simply boosting their BS for no [b]good[/b] reason. [/quote]

That's one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard. You do realize that in Imperial Armour 3, the Tau utterly embarrassed the IG at every turn, that they were one shotting their tanks from beyond visual range?

So to match this fluff should we allow Hammerheads to fire on vehicles while in reserve?

WH40k =/= real life. Every soldier in the army does not share a stat line. It doesn't have a giant omnipotent being that can see the battlefield in full moving each soldier. How would the Revolutionary war have played out if Cornwallis could have simply looked down and seen Marion's forces hiding in the swamp terrain and just moved his redcoats straight for them?

What if the VC had been limited to a 6x4 mile wide area they couldn't leave?

Your comparison is, quite frankly, stupid.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319894.page GMT 40k is a game, of course. You can try to play the game by laying your head on the board where your commander is, and ask other players to tell you what other squads are doing and can see, but you still won't be close to how a "real" battle would unfold.

The way I like to look at the 40k abstraction is that what is being played are the battles where forces are reasonable matches for each other, all else being equal. The vast majority of battles in reality are decided before the first shots have been fired. The ones played in 40k are the ones where things didn't go quite as planned and the enemy is just as much of a match for them.

What do I mean? Well, consider; I am a general and you are a general. I know you have "a" value of units on a hill (where "a" is the combat value, and to defeat it, I must be able to make "b," my combat value, greater). Well, I know it would be silly to send "c" (which will be less than "a") value unit to try and take the hill, so I should probably make sure "b" is at least twice "a." In this event, assuming my information is correct, I will easily defeat you the majority of the time. But maybe you don't have "a" on that hill, maybe you have "d!" And "d" is three times the value as "b!" I get my butt whipped! But maybe you didn't have "a" or "d," be instead had "b," which is the same value as my "b." This is the battle that 40k plays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1319924.page GMT
Your attempts to link real world events to somehow justifying Fluff driven rules utterly failed.

Armies used to march in formation and fire at point blank range because that was the tactic developed when firearm technology coupled with left over martial traditions made it the most viable tactic at the time. As firearms improved and new tactics emerged, things changed. British Supply lines were too long and they couldn't find the American forces and force a favorable confrontation. The political situation in addition to the terrain being unfavorable to armor and again, being unable to find and force the enemy into open confrontation contributed to the 'loss' in Vietnam.

None of which has anything to do with the way a game should be designed.

You come up with a concept:

'These will be 'Space Marines'. They'll be a solid army with no real weaknesses, but they won't excel at anything; they'll also have strong armor and be very durable'

'These will be 'Eldar'. They'll feature highly specialized units that excell at one thing but are weak at another. By combining specialized units a balance force can be assembeled, or they can focus on one aspect or the other. They'll also have the fastest vehicles in the game'

etc etc.

Then you test them so they are balanced against each other.

Then you write fluff to make them interesting. Why are they the way they are? What are some of their great triumphs? Their Great Defeats?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320014.page GMT [quote=Kroot Loops]Armies used to march in formation and fire at point blank range because that was the tactic developed when firearm technology coupled with left over martial traditions made it the most viable tactic at the time. As firearms improved and new tactics emerged, things changed.[/quote]Actually this is a major misnomer, as I understand it. Napoleon actually developed the tactic of marching "cheek to jowl," hence its name "Napoleonic" style of warfare. Before that, I believe, firearms were used by small groups or firing lines, much in the same way archers were used. Poor accuracy made this invalid, but by giving the rifles to the infantry, and using it as a quick volley right before they charged into hand to hand combat (which was the preferred method still), did work. It wasn't until rates of fire and accuracy increased did they cease to use formations. The Civil War, with the Confederate guerrilla tactics (which seems to be rarely mentioned in text books), high rate of fire weapons, and much more accurate weapons, did formations become less practical. WWI machine guns, artillery, land mines, GI bolt action rifles, did charges for hand-to-hand fully die out.
[quote=Kroot Loops]British Supply lines were too long and they couldn't find the American forces and force a favorable confrontation.[/quote]See? The situation dictated the conditions of victory. The Americans didn't have to beat the British at their own game (in fact they usually lost trying to...), they just changed the rules, attacking the British where they were weakest.
[quote=Kroot Loops]The political situation in addition to the terrain being unfavorable to armor and again, being unable to find and force the enemy into open confrontation contributed to the 'loss' in Vietnam.[/quote]Fact: Chinese and Vietnamese casualties dramatically out weighed American casualties to phenomenal proportions. Fact: America won most every major engagement in the war. Fact: When America attacked a Vietnamese or Chinese position, they won (major and majority of times). Fact: There was very little China or opposing Vietnamese could to do stop the Americans from going where they wanted or doing what they wanted. Martially, America had Vietnam in the bag. The problem? Hearts and minds. America lost that battle to phenomenal proportions. So why did we lose? Well, because we couldn't go and destroy the Chinese. After the Tet Offensive, the Vietnamese were finished (they never again played a part in any campaign), and before then, military victory over Vietnam was still a question. After wards, it was an inevitability. But knee biting of the "counter-culture" of the 60's played right into Communist propaganda hands; they showed a disenfranchised American youth supporting communist ideas and moral support for the Chinese and Vietnamese opposition (truth was, those in South Vietnam that weren't opposed to Communist Forces didn't care for communism and just wanted to farm their rice). Basically, America told the Communists "they were doing what was right and needed to keep killing Americans."
[quote=Kroot Loops]You come up with a concept:
'These will be 'Space Marines'. They'll be a solid army with no real weaknesses, but they won't excel at anything; they'll also have strong armor and be very durable'
'These will be 'Eldar'. They'll feature highly specialized units that excell at one thing but are weak at another. By combining specialized units a balance force can be assembeled, or they can focus on one aspect or the other. They'll also have the fastest vehicles in the game'
etc etc.[/quote] Actually WH40k was a "Warhammer Fantasy Battle in Space" concept, with most all the fluff from Fantasy taken to 40k (then Rogue Trader). WFB was essentially a rip off of Tolkien, and that's where most of its fluff came from. There has been a lot of evolution, and fluff not from Fantasy of Tolkien created, but your example pretty much shot itself in the foot, so to speak: WH40k fluff came before the game.
[quote=Kroot Loops]Then you test them so they are balanced against each other.
Then you write fluff to make them interesting. Why are they the way they are? What are some of their great triumphs? Their Great Defeats?[/quote]Yes, balancing occurs, and fluff is also extrapolated, but not nearly as much fluff is written for rules as rules are written for fluff. I'm sure an old Chaos Space Marine player can tell you about that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320065.page GMT
It also had to contend in some places with the idea that ranged weapons were not for honorable warriors.

As manufacturing and firearm technology improved, as well as armies being forced to use firearms due to it's effectiveness, it became a standard weapon. Formation marching was nothing new, from the hoplite phalanx to the Roman Legions, formation combat was the order of the day for disciplined armies until modern times. although it would not surprise me if it was Napoleon who first places rifles into formation.

The situation did dictate the conditions of victory. My point is that this does not exist in 40k. There are no supply lines. You can not utilize stealth or guerilla tactics because your opponent sees where all your models are at all times. In a prolonged story based campaign, these things can come into play, but not a standard 40k match. It's needs to be 'you line up x points, and I'll line up x points, and on any given day, either side can win' It may be slightly harder for one side, and that's fine. But things coming down the road, like the Storm Harbringer, some armies have neither answer nor counter for.

Of course America won the battles in Vietnam when it came to a fight. That's never been in question. Being able to invade would have undoubtedly but the cap on Vietnam, but it wouldn't have put the Cap on China.

And while all of this may be interesting, it doesn't address anything about the game.

I wasn't talking of how it *was* created, but how it *should* be created. I think the armies are getting kind of out of hand, it'll either stagnat into an unplayable mess, or they'll have to reboot the system, in my opinion. GW has been doing this for a while, maybe they'll surprise me.

Tau need help. They're the worst Army in 40k (debatable with Necrons possibly). And there are only a few ways to go: Better shooting, more powerful shooting, reduce points to make them a horde army.

Or ridiculous rules, like:

Railgun screening network: Acknowledging the dangers deep striking and out flanking forces pose to the hunter cadre, The Tau have developed a highly advanced screening network. Each Railgun on the board may be used individually to counter a deep striking or flanking unit within 24" of a Tau Unit. Each Railgun may only fire once per turn in this function, and each individual target may only be fired at once for this rule. Railguns in a squad or squadron may fire at seperate targets for the purpose of this rule. Squadrons of vehicles that are deepstriking or flanking may recieve one railgun shot per vehicle.

If a deepstriking or flanking unit suffers an immobilized or destroyed result, any units that were embarked suffer a perils of the warp roll. If it suffers a stunned result, any embarked units are pinned, even if they would normally be immune to pinning.

And while that seems silly, it's not really that much far beyond some of the things coming out now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320268.page GMT
It went extinct because of weaponry advances not because the tactic was flawed. It was the best tactic with the equipement available at the time. Americans should know this better than anyone because the tipping point to new weaponry making this tactic suicide came during your civil war the result being you guys inventing trench warfare (thanks for that by the way - the worst type of warfare in military history).

[quote]Look at Vietnam; with only the most basic of an assault rifle, most basic of ordinance (grenades, rocket launchers, etc...), the Chinese were able to hold back the American military force. Why? Not because they could tactically defeat the Americans on an equal playing field, but because the political environment allowed it to be so. [/quote]

More to do with the Terrain and never actually fighting a full scale war against the americans. Whilst large chunks of the american army where fighting it was never a full commited to war on the same sort of scale as say WW2 and your war against Japan. If America had commited troops on that sort fo scale they'd have easily won but would have almost certainly found themselves in nuclear war with Russia...

[quote]How did the American Revolutionary forces defeat one of the most powerful empires on earth? The environment made such a victory/defeat possible. [/quote]

I recon it had more to do with never actually fighting that army and instead fiighting a militia lead by a simpathiser... Rather stupidly the british leaders didn't see you country as valuable so never fought to keep it (not saying we would have won if we had actually decided to fight the war, but we didn't so it was a full gone comclusion and you still needed the help of the white flag brigade).

I'm going to have to side with Killkrazy a balanced game is the number 1 important thing. However fluff is also VERY important an deach army needs a unique feel to gain popular appeal but if certain armies are stuffed because the fluff doesn't allow them to compete (Orks for instance) then that has to go by the way side. Unfortunately the game balance has shifted almost entirely to CC now and that leaves the Tau a bit high and dry so they need a new codex more than anyone (except the poor Necrons how long have they been waiting for a new 'dex?).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1320919.page GMT tac. However, that does not mean that the guy who brings a club to a gun fight will necessarily lose the war, if he doesn't even have to swing his club to win.

As far as building a game around "balance," as opposed to the fluff. Well I think every army would end up the same flavor with no weaknesses, just strengths, and there would be no need for codex updates. There are a lot of other game systems like that. Battletech is a good example. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321228.page GMT 40K work as a game.

It is your opinion that balancing the game would result in bland codexes with very similar troops and tactics in each army.

Surely the current game gives that that lie. The 5e codexes do seem to be pretty well balanced among themselves.

The codexes which are badly out of whack (mainly Tau and Necrons) are suffering from some specific changes in the core rules, which attack them especially and not the other factions.

If you think that is subjective, consider this.

The game offers a variety of factors which can be varied from army to army -- BS/WS/Sv and so on -- plus the variations available in different weapons, and the points values. These factors can give the same basic troop type (infantry, for example) different strengths and weaknesses in each army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321284.page GMT
Why you seem to preclude the possibility of fluff and other factors. Just because game balance is the top priority doesn't make it the only priority.

When you buy a new TV your top priority might be price. Say you have £200 to spend that doesn't mean you go and find the TV with a price as near to £200 as possible. Other factors will still effect the TV you end up with like brand name, picture quality, aethetics, design size etc.

Just because game balance is the main driver it doesn;t mean you have to make a bland game or that fluff doesn't influence game design.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321318.page GMT
The two armies that are having the hardest time currently are Tau and Necrons, agreeable. However Tau are still not the crippled duck some people make them out to be. Do they need work? Most definitely. Do they need a fluff re-write? No, not at all. Tau are still very viable for play, difficult for tourney, most definitely, but not a crippled army.

Necrons and Tau are also the two newest armies, and are only first and second generation Codices. Considering that Tau never existed before (Necrons did appear way back), it isn't that surprising that they are having a hard time finding where they belong in 40k and finding both useful and fluff appropriate units.

If you want to balance Tau, and don't care about fluff, just clone the Space Marine Codex, change all the names, and make stuff up from there. You'll certainly be able to make up reasons why Tau are stomping around in SV3+ armor (mini-Crisis suits anyone?), have Dreadnoughts (Heavy Crisis Suits!), etc... But then that wouldn't fit their current fluff, now would it? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321563.page GMT How about the BRB? The turn over of new recruits and casualties in the IG runs into the millions daily, the turn over is so high that no one knows what the actual strength of the IG is. Regiments are raised on a planet, given rudimentary training, shipped to the war zone, and thrown into battle. [/quote]
Moot point as well as totally irrelevant.
The casualty numbers have zero relevance to the issue at hand.
The IG is so vast the standard crusade consist of a billion soldiers and no one even knows exactly how many billion of guardsmen there are in the whole IG. Thus no one knows the casualty ratio either.

Tau have hardly any experiance with deamons, eldar, dark eldar, necrons and chaos relative to IG.
Tau mostly fight back the odd ork and tyranid swarm and invade very poorly defended imperial planets and when "real" imperial forces arrive to reclaim them the tau realize its not as easy as they previously thought. This is what you get for being clustered tightly in one small spot in the galaxy.
As per GWs fluff, if the imperium wasnt so hard pressed by other and bigger threats (tau arent even up there with the big ones), the puny tau empire would be steamrolled in an afternoon.

[quote]Even the most professional IG regiment, the Cadians, has a nearly identical birthrate and death rate, which means it's a stagnant population. Have you ever been to a country ravaged recently by war? You'll find an interesting phenomenon, 60% or more of the population will be under the age of 18. [/quote]
Since basically the entire population is fighting and Cadia is placed under the biggest and constant threat in the galaxy what is your point?
Tau live on secluded planets wrestled from weak and underpowered planetary governmets at such times the real imperial forces cannot help them.

To use a point of having some imperial armies being constantly beleguared and say casulties are hight and therefore the IG suck is laughable at best.
Lets invade the tau with a 13:th black crusade and I can start pointing out to you how high firewarrior casultie rates are, would that make any sense what so ever?

[quote]A SM chapter with all it's forces is a far cry from less than 10 space marines with no heavy support. [/quote]
Not against an entire craftworld on its home turf it isnt.

[quote]Besides, at least in 'canon' fluff, Every faction gets their chance to shine. I'm more concerned about the table top. There is no reason the BA should have gotten this super skimmer of death that they are getting, but they are. GW has to make every army viable on the table, they aren't the only game in town anymore where we'll sit for six years hoping we'll be fixed 'next codex'. If they continue ramping the Imperium up and maintaining Xenos in a sub-par existance, I'll migrate with my dollars over to Warmachine/Hordes.

And I'm pretty sure you mean to say BS 4, not WS 4 [/quote]
Yeah the WS was a typo.

True, other races need time to shine on the TT as well but the foremost idea with this game is still that it is at least slightly based on fluff.
As for firewarrior fluff I dont really care how much they cost as long as it is balanced but they do not have the eye sight for a BS4.
The suits I would agree to for an adequate point increase.

I still remember the times tau were new and all armies abused the crap out of the game with those pesky never-can-die jump suits. Hopefully they will get more fun rules in the future since we dont really need yet another cheesy idiot proof unit all noobs can hang on to.

[quote]do Tau ever even do live fire exercises?[/quote]
Hehe, we know about one, against an burned out rhino hull being towed to impress an imperial fist "diplomat".

[quote]2) The "Guardsmen" that are quickly recruited and poorly trained (those some people refer to as "having a lasgun thrust into their hands and told 'go!'") are what are called "Conscripts," and are pitiful in a model for model comparison to both Guardsmen and Fire Warriors. [/quote]
Conscripts or poorly trained local pdf militia.
Real imperial guard are a highly professional army with decades under each regiments belt before being rolled out, if ever.

[quote]3) If Tau Sergeants (however you call them) are the "betters," then shouldn't Guard Sergeants and Space Marine Sergeants also have +1BS? What about the Veteran Sergeants? Shouldn't they also be +1BS compared to their normal Veteran components? Then wouldn't the commanders be an additional +1BS too? I mean, not only are they veterans, but their also even better than the Sergeants! So that would put a Guard Company Commander at BS6 and Space Marine Captains at BS7! I'm not implying this is good logic, I am showing that just because you're a "veteran" or "Sergeant" doesn't mean your BS should be immediately bumped. [/quote]
This is what happens when faction fanatics take over, we end up with drones having BS10.
I´we seen this with sister ideas on another board, fluff was bent to hell and back in order to excuse S6 power weapons, BS5 across the board and 3+inv saves and you only see the ridicule of it all if you are an outsider without bias clouded vision stepping in mid discussion and are subsequently burned at the stake for daring to point out the idiocy.

[quote]1. FW should have BS4, as it fits with the army theme of focused ranged fire [/quote]
You need to provide better reasons otehr then "you want".
Bad eye sight in the fluff anyone?
Tabletop wise, having S5 R 36 rifles with BS4 to them would mean a ridiculous point cost of a firewarrior and as far as I know NO fluff tells us of firewarriors being a deathwing-alike elite army.

[quote]3. Skinnattittar; who somehow believes that the IG is the ultimate fighting force in the galaxy and nothing should be better than them [/quote]
He reflected upon the true fluff of IG, thats all. A human who has a longer life span then a tau and who fights in a professional army for most of his life will inevitable be better then a short living and half blind firewarrior!
The only thing the firewarrior will have that is better will be the quality of his wagear and that is also the case with 4+ saves and super guns.
If you have a problem with that then look at yourself, inventing fluff reasons to give firewarriors BS4. As far as I know no FW models are ever wearing any glasses

[quote]The demands of gameplay take precedence over fluff. [/quote]
Yes and no. Fluff also needs to be interlinked with the game. Why else go to lenghts to invent rules that make almost identical units differ (bikes and jetbikes). Why else put effort into making tabletop distinctions between very similar things like jump packs and jet packs?

If the gaming was all it was about we should have similar figures only painted different and with similar rules.

[quote]Same thing goes for war gaming. An army with fluff that rends it unable to compete with those that exist is an army that is doomed to become extinct.[/quote]
The important thing to recognise is that no army has fluff that makes it ineffective!!!!
Its the point costs that often make things op or up.
We can take a pure grot army and make them overpowered if we price each frot at 1p a piece and remove slot limitation, its not the fluff of crappy grots that would make such an army unbalanced.

When considering a new tau codex and new rules I would say the most important things are to represent fluff and do so in a balanced way without any cheese loopholes or without ending up with each and every tau army being built in just one or two ways.

[quote]Good read, To bad thats YOUR OPINION. Which when it gets down to it... opinions arent what really matters[/quote]
not really, opinion alone is not what matters. An opinion with logic, fluff and common sense backign it on the other hand, that is what matters. So far I see no, zero, nada good reasons other then "your own opinion" to give firewarriors BS4!

[quote]Firewarriors are 10, bs 3, and ld 7, cant take heavy weapons, cant take CC weapons, there is no ldr fix for stopping them running off table.

please explain all of those Math/Cost wise as to why they should NOT get beefed up. [/quote]
Maybe you should start asking yourself what do firewarriors get that guardsmen do not?

Using your logics chaos thousand sons marines are absolutely worthless, they only get an AP3 bolter and no heavy weapons and they cost like 23p each!
I dread the thought of you being an avid chaos player, that wey we would have to listen through rants about you advocating point reductions for 1ksons marines as well as heavy weapons for them simply because IG cost less and can take heawy weapons.

Geez, the lack of solid arguments never sizes to amaze me

[quote]That's one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard. You do realize that in Imperial Armour 3, the Tau utterly embarrassed the IG at every turn, that they were one shotting their tanks from beyond visual range?
[/quote]
*sigh*
You realize that in imperial armour the Raven Guard totally embarrassed the tau army too?
Should I use that as a point to make SM BS5 across the board?

Besides, wasnt it not one of you tau BS4 apologists who recently told me that non GW canon fluff isnt worth jack?
Do try to live like you preach the next time.

[quote]WH40k =/= real life. Every soldier in the army does not share a stat line. [/quote]
Fine, then firewarriors from different septs on different planets can also be said to have non similar stats!
How would you like some firewarriors to have BS2?
Or using your reasoning lets give both IG and firewarriors a BS of 1D6-1. That should conform better to your version of "real life".

[quote]You come up with a concept:

'These will be 'Space Marines'. They'll be a solid army with no real weaknesses, but they won't excel at anything; they'll also have strong armor and be very durable'

'These will be 'Eldar'. They'll feature highly specialized units that excel at one thing but are weak at another. By combining specialized units a balance force can be assembeled, or they can focus on one aspect or the other. They'll also have the fastest vehicles in the game' [/quote]
This is how GW do it, They give a new army/race a theme, inherited strengths, weaknesses, encouraged gaming styles etc.
This is all framed by the fluff give to the race.

Thus tau are made highly mobile but part static with transport options. Weak in melee but also average or even weak in shooting skills. This is ofset by superior technology (wargear) and finally the melee was given an option in the form of rather bland kroot but this is ok as quality melee is supposed to be lacking in the theme.
They were even given a specialized anti MEQ unit that by now is overpriced for that it does.

Now what you are trying to do is to upset GWs own balance by introducing high BS skill into the brew of already best shooty wargear in the whole game of 40k. Sorry dude byt this radical decision is only GWs to make and should the make one other aspects of the army/race will suffer badly to counterbalance this.

[quote]WFB was essentially a rip off of Tolkien[/quote]
And Moorcock.

[quote]The situation did dictate the conditions of victory. My point is that this does not exist in 40k. There are no supply lines. You can not utilize stealth or guerilla tactics because your opponent sees where all your models are at all times[/quote]
Because standard 40k missions are about one platoon vs another platoon during the course of one day. Importing big picture things like supplies etc is out of the scope for that.
On the other hand you are perfectly free to play apoc sized games over a course of battles and locations with each outcome dictating conditions for the players that can be made to reflect morale, supply lines, reinforcements etc.
40k is not devoid of such things, they just dont fit into one core rule book.

[quote]
Tau need help. They're the worst Army in 40k (debatable with Necrons possibly). [/quote]
LOL
Try again! Does the phrase "deamon hunters" mean anything to you?

If any army deserves a codex before tau it is they.

[quote]Railgun screening network: Acknowledging the dangers deep striking and out flanking forces pose to the hunter cadre, The Tau have developed a highly advanced screening network. Each Railgun on the board may be used individually to counter a deep striking or flanking unit within 24" of a Tau Unit. Each Railgun may only fire once per turn in this function, and each individual target may only be fired at once for this rule. Railguns in a squad or squadron may fire at seperate targets for the purpose of this rule. Squadrons of vehicles that are deepstriking or flanking may recieve one railgun shot per vehicle.
If a deepstriking or flanking unit suffers an immobilized or destroyed result, any units that were embarked suffer a perils of the warp roll. If it suffers a stunned result, any embarked units are pinned, even if they would normally be immune to pinning.
[/quote]
That really made my day


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321575.page GMT
The two armies that are having the hardest time currently are Tau and Necrons, agreeable. However Tau are still not the crippled duck some people make them out to be. Do they need work? Most definitely. Do they need a fluff re-write? No, not at all. Tau are still very viable for play, difficult for tourney, most definitely, but not a crippled army.

Necrons and Tau are also the two newest armies, and are only first and second generation Codices. Considering that Tau never existed before (Necrons did appear way back), it isn't that surprising that they are having a hard time finding where they belong in 40k and finding both useful and fluff appropriate units.

If you want to balance Tau, and don't care about fluff, just clone the Space Marine Codex, change all the names, and make stuff up from there. You'll certainly be able to make up reasons why Tau are stomping around in SV3+ armor (mini-Crisis suits anyone?), have Dreadnoughts (Heavy Crisis Suits!), etc... But then that wouldn't fit their current fluff, now would it? [/quote]

It is possible to have balanced armies without making everyone the same.

Take Space Marines. Traditional strengths has been

1. good all around, the standard from which every other army is measured (Saying they are the 'average' army is a bit of a misnomer, they are high-average)
2. Durable. From 3+ saves on troops, to a AV14 on all sides transport, to 2+ Termi armor, to ironclad/venerable dreads, A Marine force isn't just going to fold under one round of typical fire.

And Take Eldar, traditional strengths would be:
1. Powerful Psyker abilities to buff their own army.
2. Specialized units that can outperform Marines in their specialty
3. Very fast, mobile transports and fleet troops

In a game, Marines could win by playing against the specialties of the eldar forces. Or as the Ork saying goes, 'Dakka the Choppy bits, Chop the Dakka bits'

Eldar would want to use their speed and mobility to prevent the marines from doing so.

The game would be won by the person who executed their plan the best and made the fewest mistakes (barring the ever looming displeasure of the dice gods)

But take a look at what's happening now. Storm Harbringer? A fast Skimmer with good armor, amazing troop capacity, staggering firepower, and can launch jump infantry in assault after moving 12"? Oh, and it can deepstrike and still launch that assault. Or take Pedro, and you're entire Marine Army is Fleet.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
[quote=Pyriel-]
insert a lot of nonsense here
[/quote]

So you ignore the fluff you don't like and claim Skinn as the Prophet of the IG, revealing it's true fluff! Psst, The IG isn't real, their fluff is whatever GW decides to print at the given time.

If anyone here sounds like a rabid fanboy on a rant, it's you. Take a breath, and try to post coherently

Yes, DH needs a new codex, because that's what this game needs, is another release of the bloat of 8 codex that is the IoM. Lets see 5e releases have been SM, IG, SW, Nids, BA. And rumors, while unreliable at this point, say the Inquisition will be next.

The range of the pulse rifle is not 36 inches. And I'd love to see you scrubs quoting the long range of the pulse rifle actually play a match as Tau against IoM. Round 1 it'll be 'zomg I can shoot 30"!!!!' Round 2 it will be 'Where are my FW?'

FW are half blind? Sorry, no. Their eyes don't focus as quickly as a human eye does, and I'm pretty sure that was designed to explain their poor weapon skill, not their poor ballistic skill.

Oh, and railgun defense screen? Yeah, that was explicitly stated to be an example of a ridiculous rule, not a proposed one. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321628.page GMT IG, revealing it's true fluff![/quote]Thanks! I needed a new quote for my signature. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321885.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1321909.page GMT BS wasn't through the roof despite being an army focused on powerful ranged shooting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322172.page GMT 40k wiki produced this:
"Tau vision is considered slightly superior to humans - their visual spectrum extends a little more into the ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths. However their pupils do not dilate giving poorer depth perception and slower focusing reflexes than Humans."

I also found on another website mention of a GW article when Tau were first introduced that mentioned eyesight being another cause for poor close combat skills.

I searched high and low and found no mentiont that poor eyesight caused bad shooting. If that were the case, one would expect their rifles to be shorter range...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322200.page GMT BS wasn't through the roof despite being an army focused on powerful ranged shooting.[/quote]

Nope, I've read the eyesight thing before, although I don't recall where at the moment, but I'm fairly certain, as Agnosto said, it was mainly a CC thing. Just because you don't like CC doesn't mean you'll suck at it.

And The Tau don't like Kroot because they're good in CC, in fact they try to curtail their alien allies from such barbaric practices. The enjoy the Kroot's fieldcraft and infiltration ability, which has synergy with and complements Pathfinder teams, or the Vespids synergy and complementary pairing with Crisis Suit Teams (Tau Codex, page 10).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322399.page GMT
Accept that Tau are an army which is bad at H2H because that makes them different. Then think about what can be improved to compensate: firepower, mobility, defence, and cost reduction.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322459.page GMT
Accept that Tau are an army which is bad at H2H because that makes them different. Then think about what can be improved to compensate: firepower, mobility, defence, and cost reduction.
[/quote]


I love how you just sounded like a hypnotist....."look at the light, you are getting sleep, sleepy; when you awake, you'll be a blue dude with 4 fingers."

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322471.page GMT CC (and Yes, I know as I say that, there will definitely be someone who does want them to be) because that would completely change the nature of the army.

I have the BA rumors too firmly in mind at the moment, the Storm Harbringer and Shockwave pretty much trumps mobility in any form of x number of inches movement]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322505.page GMT
Accept that Tau are an army which is bad at H2H because that makes them different. Then think about what can be improved to compensate: firepower, mobility, defence, and cost reduction.
[/quote]


I love how you just sounded like a hypnotist....."look at the light, you are getting sleep, sleepy; when you awake, you'll be a blue dude with 4 fingers."

[/quote]

It worked in Avatar!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322606.page GMT
Accept that Tau are an army which is bad at H2H because that makes them different. Then think about what can be improved to compensate: firepower, mobility, defence, and cost reduction.
[/quote]


I love how you just sounded like a hypnotist....."look at the light, you are getting sleep, sleepy; when you awake, you'll be a blue dude with 4 fingers."

[/quote]

It worked in Avatar![/quote]


QFT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322658.page GMT Accept that Tau are an army which is bad at H2H because that makes them different. Then think about what can be improved to compensate: firepower, mobility, defence, and cost reduction.[/quote]a) I won't ignore fluff. If I want to play a boring, uninteresting game where the only fun is running around looking for headshots, I'll play Counter-Strike. If I want to play a game where I actually feel like I'm part of the game, I'll play 40k. If you just want to move guys around, then play chess or checkers.

I more then except that Firewarriors are poor in close combat, but I do not think that making the Tau army better is giving them all BS4 for no reason other than to make Tau players happier. It's just a sad and pointless reason to do anything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1322891.page GMT BRB for the first time. It was about them crushing 7 regiments of Catachan Imperial Guard

Hrm, Tau beating IG in the BRB... in the Tau Codex... In the Taros Campaign... Very well Skinn. You must adhere to the fluff. I expect you to flee the table every time you face Tau :p

Now back to the dead horse, resume beating.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1323394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1323394.page GMT BRB for the first time. It was about them crushing 7 regiments of Catachan Imperial Guard

Hrm, Tau beating IG in the BRB... in the Tau Codex... In the Taros Campaign... Very well Skinn. You must adhere to the fluff. I expect you to flee the table every time you face Tau :p

Now back to the dead horse, resume beating.[/quote]

lawl so true!

oh and fluff on tau facing space marines, space marines get pew pewed to piece until the marines hold a piece of ground that is overly important to the tau and are force to close to try and dig them out of their holes.. then the marines grab the tau in melee and it makes up for the beating they take at range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1323883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1323883.page GMT
Write rules that make an interesting game then write fluff to support the rules.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324543.page GMT GW has no problem changing fluff when it suits their purposes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324567.page GMT OP with the high str of their guns for a troop choice. However, Tau players can use Markerlights to make them hit really easily, and with their high str guns that is devastating.

Also I agree, cheaper transports would make Fire Warriors more fun ^^
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1324587.page GMT OP with the high str of their guns for a troop choice. However, Tau players can use Markerlights to make them hit really easily, and with their high str guns that is devastating.

Also I agree, cheaper transports would make Fire Warriors more fun ^^
[/quote]

problem is how fragile/static/expensive the different sources of marklights present...

If your fragile and relatively cheap, your static

If your expensive as hell, your still fragile yet a little harder to see but you can move

If you honestly think skyray is an option...well i dunno its a pos in my opinion]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325254.page GMT If your fragile and relatively cheap, your static
If your expensive as hell, your still fragile yet a little harder to see but you can move
If you honestly think skyray is an option...well i dunno its a pos in my opinion[/quote]
Guardsmen are really cheap now, but they're very mobile now too. I usually keep half my army moving during a game. That's nothing compared to most, but for an army that used to do zero moving, that's a lot! I used to actually just skip my movement phase, if not to get my armor in better positions to shoot. Guardsmen are also still impressively fragile, more fragile than Tau even! If you gob them up and buy a Commissar, they'll stick around better, which Tau don't have, so that's a possibility, but that's not the focus of this thread.

Tau have Markerlights, fix the units bearing Markerlights and be done with it. Even if it means putting a Markerlight drone in the squads for a +1BS boost or have them do the old IG Sharpshooters method.

As for fluff and rules? Make soemthing interesting up and write the rules for that, tweak them as need be to adjust fire, and then work in the proper points value. Making up rules then finding fluff is like putting the cart before the horse. It just doesn't make sense! You'll end up getting wild and wonky units whose fluff might fit them, but in such an alien way they may as well not have fluff. It's a good methodology for power gamers, but if you're playing 40k just to win, you're missing out on the majority of 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325736.page GMT 40k just to win, you're missing out on the majority of 40k.[/quote]

We think the same in that much.

There are numerous ways to make the Tau 5th edition ready without making them OP; I guess we'll just have to wait and see what GW eventually comes up with.

I've been thinking more and more of a guard army but there's too much painting involved for my tastes but you have to love the flexibility and fire support they bring to the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325755.page GMT If your fragile and relatively cheap, your static
If your expensive as hell, your still fragile yet a little harder to see but you can move
If you honestly think skyray is an option...well i dunno its a pos in my opinion[/quote]

Tau have Markerlights, fix the units bearing Markerlights and be done with it. Even if it means putting a Markerlight drone in the squads for a +1BS boost or have them do the old IG Sharpshooters method.[/quote]

Markerlight Drones can already be put in Fire Warrior squads, as is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325783.page GMT 40k just to win, you're missing out on the majority of 40k.[/quote]We think the same in that much.
There are numerous ways to make the Tau 5th edition ready without making them OP; I guess we'll just have to wait and see what GW eventually comes up with.
I've been thinking more and more of a guard army but there's too much painting involved for my tastes but you have to love the flexibility and fire support they bring to the game.[/quote]For all the major short comings of the new IG codex, I have to admit that it is actually a very good codex that reflects the fluff of professional Guard a lot better. An individual Guardsmen is still highly expendable, but with great quantity comes a great quality. And I actually have a reason to move around with 5th Edition! I like the idea of claiming objectives, and at my local shop, most of the players like to place them in strategic locations(though we still have powergamers that place them in hard to get to and easily defended places that make no sense fluff-wise). Places such as high grounds, important structures, or sometimes just in a wide open and claim it is some sort of important material. Except for assaults being really over powered (one Guardsmen can kill a million Marines), 5th Edition is the best so far, in my opinion!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325788.page GMT Markerlight Drones can already be put in Fire Warrior squads, as is.[/quote]

This thread is so big I can't remember if we discussed this but maybe make tau like other armies in 5th where you buy a sergeant and 4 grunts then buy upgrades and additional troops. So you get an included 'el with markerlight and multi-tracker which would allow him to shoot his gun and the marker light.

I know someone mentioned making marker lights assault; that doesn't sound so bad.

Small fix that would go a long way to evening things out without making tau OP. I still like the idea of heavy or special weapon options. Maybe be able to purchase a seeker missile for every 5 men in the unit. Dunno, just throwing out thoughts.

Edit:
meant seeker missile, not smart missile.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325801.page GMT
I'm curious; how do Markerlights currently work in Firewarrior squads? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325821.page GMT
I'm curious; how do Markerlights currently work in Firewarrior squads? [/quote]

Actually, tank, singular. Hammerhead has two options railgun and ion cannon. I just feel firewarriors are too vanilla, every army's troops have some options at least.

Currently, squads have two ways to access markerlights, you can take an team leader who can purchase an upgrade for his weapon or you can take a drone controller and buy a couple of markerlight drones. So you can potentially have 3 marker lights in a unit but it would cost you 50pts in wargear, not to mention the cost to upgrade to an 'ui.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325835.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325841.page GMT
Sub munitions is good but still a little more variety in the army wouldn't hurt. I'd like to see a resculpt of the vespid and make them not suck as much and maybe human auxiliaries or something to break up the monotony of painting everything vomit brown. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1325871.page GMT FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326388.page GMT FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.[/quote]Doesn't that also negate cover and allows ana additional D6 or something for armor penetration? As well as access to Markerlights, which the Leman Russ does not.

I have not said Tau vehicles are properly pointed for 5th Edition. They would need to be reasonably adjusted for points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326409.page GMT str 6 ap 4, it doesn't ignore cover, it's not barrage, and it's not melta or ordnance. You can use marker lights to reduce cover on a 1 for 1 exchange. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326433.page GMT FW squad. It costs a minimum of 20 points for one marker light that can't be used by the squad it belongs too, a minimum of 40 points for one that the squad can use.

However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move.

A Piranha with a melta and a targeting array is 70 points, as much as a land speeder with a multimelta and a heavy flamer. Piranha has the benefit of front armor 11, Land speeder has the benefit of deepstriking

Hammerheads are nice, and railguns are still nice, although they've been devalued in 5th. Secondary weapons are not good, and You're limited to 3 hammerheads in an army. They compete with Broadsides, which are much better vehicle killers.

And hammerheads have to chose between a str 10 AP 1 slug or a str 6 AP 4 large blast, compared to the Leman Russ, which can fire a Str 9 AP 2 Lascannon as well as a Str 8 AP 3 large blast in the same turn.[/quote]Doesn't that also negate cover and allows ana additional D6 or something for armor penetration? As well as access to Markerlights, which the Leman Russ does not.

I have not said Tau vehicles are properly pointed for 5th Edition. They would need to be reasonably adjusted for points.[/quote]

Cheapest way to get a submunition and ignore cover..

Hammer head + rail gun + Burst cannons + Disruption pod..if you want to be able to move + multi tracker

165pts

8 pathfinders + mandatory devilfish + disruption pod (who cares if this thing can shoot at this point..) 96+ 85 = 181

165 + 181 = 346pts for a str 6 ap 4 large blast fired at BS 4, with no cover save, assuming you hit average, doesnt have bonuses to cover saves be it through abilities or going to ground.. all you MEQ or better armor out there..dont worry..you still get your saves >.<

*edit* no extra bonus for penetrations

pretty large amount of points invested for minimal rewards... how many russes in 1 squad can you run for 346points?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1326939.page GMT However all versions of the markerlights that FW can take can not fire if they move. [/quote]

That depends on how you play it. In 5th Ed. all jetpack models are now relentless meaning the marker drones can move and fire their heavy weapon. Though technically by RAW the odler codex supercedes this most people I know play the RAI that the drone can move and shoot now.

ON a side note, Tau can't get 2d6 penetration from anything except fusion blasters.

The piranha vs multi-melta & HF landspeeder sort fo shows the Tau's problems:

Both have BS4

One has a fusion blaster 12" range and 6" for AT, the other a multi-melta, 24" range and 12" for AT.

One has 2 gun drones for 2 x S5 BS2 AP5 pinning shots the other a heavy flamer for template S5 AP4.

One counts as 2 KPs when destroyed the other only counts as 1.

The SM one is better in every possible incidence. far better AT due to range, and better anti-infantry and in annihilation it doesn't cost you 2 KPs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1327355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1327355.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1327662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1327662.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.[/quote]

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330050.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.[/quote]

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.[/quote]

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330107.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.[/quote]

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.[/quote]

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit[/quote]

Yup!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330504.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.[/quote]

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.[/quote]

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit[/quote]

Yup![/quote]

at which point your better off running an HQ squad + targetting arrays...

EL 25 (more than reg suit, this is mandatory so dont factor for at least 1 squad.)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
+targetting array on each bg = 20

total 40points for + 1 bs, instead of 60 =-?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330528.page GMT
check the drone entries on page 31 of the codex. All drones take on the unit type of their controller. A ML drone (or any other drone) attached to a FW 'Ui has a unit type of infantry, not jump(jet pack) infantry. As a result, they are not relentless.[/quote]

Although this would allow a Crisis suit team to drop in with a Marker Drone, increase it's own BS with the marker drone by firing on the Deep Striking turn, and then have the Crisis unit fire at BS 4/5.[/quote]

except then you spend 60pts for the average 1 marklight hit[/quote]

Yup![/quote]

at which point your better off running an HQ squad + targetting arrays...

EL 25 (more than reg suit, this is mandatory so dont factor for at least 1 squad.)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
bg 10 (+ than reg suit)
+targetting array on each bg = 20

total 40points for + 1 bs, instead of 60 =-?[/quote]

Hey, I never said it was a great option!

It certainly is costly, if you've got a lot of points to throw around though..

Shas'vre + TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.) By no means will I tout this as "teh bestest stragedy everrr...but I certainly will be trying it out against MEQ armies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330581.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330736.page GMT
It would be only 2 still as they can't take a multitraker and a targeting array hence why he's gone for a twinlinked weapon...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330914.page GMT
It would be only 2 still as they can't take a multitraker and a targeting array hence why he's gone for a twinlinked weapon...[/quote]

unless its on an HQ squad thats running HW Multis]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330966.page GMT HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330980.page GMT HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.[/quote]

good catch i concur then]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1330985.page GMT HQ and Shas'vre... It was running a totally redundant Shas'vre (just throwing away 5 points) and 2 Shas'ui. Hence no multi-trakers allowed.[/quote]

FlingitNow...think about what you are posting...
Yes, the team leader is an additional 5 points that allows for the taking of hardwired Target Lock/Drone Controller.

Make them a Shas'vre and add in a Multitracker...and you can equip a special issue weapon such as the lovely Cycolin Ion Blaster or Airburst. Frag.

Both of those are very useful in an anti-MEQ role (which is what I posted.)

Deep-strike within rapid fire range with twin-linked BS 5 plasmas (3 dead MEQ) along with CIB you have another 1-2 dead Marines.

Against GEQ, twin-linked Burst cannons with AFP at BS5...9 S5 AP5 shots along with a S4 AP5 Large Blast, all with an 18" range. (you can do the math on the amount of dead Guardsmen)

[[Note: I present this simply as an interesting build, and something I will have to test out. Not the "end all" of Tau deepstriking kicka$$]]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331252.page GMT TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.[/quote]

This is the example you used. No mention of spec issue wargear you were talking about twin-lionked plasmas and hence why I said the shas'vre was redundant. Team leader allows you to give him a multitraker, TL and drone controller. Just not the spec issue wargear.

That was my point yeah upgrade him to the vre if you want the cyclic ion blaster and or AFP, but I tend to stick those on my commander if I take them (big fan of the AFP).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331701.page GMT TA + HW DC
two suits + TA
two ML drones

Three squads of those, firing at BS4 standard but on average being able to shoot at BS5. A costly, but effective Deep Striking unit... (think twin-linked plasmas here.[/quote]

This is the example you used. No mention of spec issue wargear you were talking about twin-lionked plasmas and hence why I said the shas'vre was redundant. Team leader allows you to give him a multitraker, TL and drone controller. Just not the spec issue wargear.

That was my point yeah upgrade him to the vre if you want the cyclic ion blaster and or AFP, but I tend to stick those on my commander if I take them (big fan of the AFP).[/quote]

Seems that this build is better suited for a Farsight army. Farsight + Bodyguards, HQ squad, + 3 Crisis teams.
With targetting arrays, all fire at BS4+, at BS5 with Markerlights.

HQ:


[783 points]
- O'Shovah (170)
-Bodyguard (245) Hard-wired Targetting Arrays (35) Hardwired Multitracker (35) Hardwired Drone Controller (0) Marker Drones (60)
Twin-linked Plasma Rifles, Flamer (238)

[317 points]
- Shas'el (50) Hard-wired Targetting Arrays(5) Hard-wired Multitracker (5) Hard-wired Drone Controller (0) Marker Drones (60)
Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (18) CIB (15)
-Bodyguard (70) Hard-wired Targetting Array(10) Hard-wired Multitracker (10) Twin-linked Missile Pod (36) AFP (20) Burst Cannon (8)

Throw in a squad of footslogging Pathfinders (have their transport take a squad of Fire Warriors after they arrive), and two squads of Fire Warriors. You'll have a playable anti-MEQ army that can still put a hurting on GEQ. They'll be highly mobile, and able to claim objectives (as long as you babysit the two squads of Fire Warriors in transports.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331722.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331794.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1331794.page GMT
Ah, nice catch. I meant to put Targetting Array, not Target Lock (which is useless in 5e).

[corrected]

It could possibly have 4 scoring units (4 squads of 6 Firewarriors), that would have to be babysat like mad. A squad of Pathfinders would be needed as well to allow rerolling for Deep Strike rolls.

Anti-transport is covered by the 7 twin-linked Plasma Rifles at BS5 plus O'Shovah's 1 Plasma Rifle as well as the Dawn Blade which rolls 2d6+5 against vehicles. For the other squad it is covered by a twin-linked Fusion Blaster, as well as 2 twin-linked Missile Pods at BS5.

Against tanks, (think AV13/14) the list is more limited to the twin-linked Fusion Blaster at BS5, and OShovah's Dawn Blade at WS5. You could squeeze this all into a 1500 list, and have a Tau list that would *have* to focus on wiping out the enemy as quick as possible. The 3+ armor saves help, but if a few points are left over then the addition of a few shield drones to each squad would be useful.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332391.page GMT BS. 3 TL PR at BS 3 in RF range with no cover saves out performs 3 TL PR at BS 5 /w Cover saves.

Also, your example can be exceptionally abused by even a single demolisher cannon. Against something like the SW list that shoots 21 krak missiles a round, the Farsight bomb is fairly easily diffused, especially without shield drones.

Also, I believe you'll find that the vast majority of players and tournament organizers disagree with you about the target lock doing nothing, including the INAT FAQ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332499.page GMT BS. 3 TL PR at BS 3 in RF range with no cover saves out performs 3 TL PR at BS 5 /w Cover saves.[/quote]

Deep Strike the units within Rapid Fire range (Pathfinders allow a reroll in case of a mishap due to being too close), boost BS to BS5. 7 TL PR at BS5 without cover saves outperforms 7 BS4 without cover saves.

If the unit is in cover, than the idea of Deep Striking within Rapid Fire range is probably out of the question anyways.

[quote=Kroot Loops]Also, your example can be exceptionally abused by even a single demolisher cannon. Against something like the SW list that shoots 21 krak missiles a round, the Farsight bomb is fairly easily diffused, especially without shield drones.[/quote]

Exactly. Every list has it's counter, I just found it to be interesting, and something I want to give a shot.

[quote=Kroot Loops]Also, I believe you'll find that the vast majority of players and tournament organizers disagree with you about the target lock doing nothing, including the INAT FAQ[/quote]

RAW, they do nothing in 5e...but you are correct. Regardless, I meant "Targetting Array"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1332684.page GMT
It works best against other lists that has a simular 'eggs all in one basket' kind of set up, like 2x Nob Bikers lists.

I've lost track though, FW BS?
[quote]RAW, they do nothing in 5e...but you are correct. Regardless, I meant "Targetting Array"[/quote]

RAW has it's uses, but this falls in the same category as the 'Mawloc can't deepstrike on another unit' idiocy.

I mean, for crying out loud, the Hazard Suit rules were released [b]This Month[/b] with target lock as one of it's wargear options.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1333116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1333116.page GMT
Obliterators!

I wouldn't mind if Crisis suits had a rule similar to Obliterator weapons, it would make them a lot more useful in a 'crisis,' so it could still be pretty fluffy. Would it really be that game breaking if this, usually mega-expensive, unit had access to all of it's weapon options? Leave the air-burst grenades and cylic-ion guns for the HQ though.

Also, FW with BS 4 would be a little nuts. I'm happy with it just on the Etheral body guard guys, but they should have a 'counts as troops' rule. And FW really need a way to shoot marker lights after moving. I really liked the addition of more marker light stuff when the newest codex came out, as that was something very unique to the army.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1333873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1333873.page GMT
It works best against other lists that has a simular 'eggs all in one basket' kind of set up, like 2x Nob Bikers lists.

I've lost track though, FW BS?
[quote]RAW, they do nothing in 5e...but you are correct. Regardless, I meant "Targetting Array"[/quote]

RAW has it's uses, but this falls in the same category as the 'Mawloc can't deepstrike on another unit' idiocy.

I mean, for crying out loud, the Hazard Suit rules were released [b]This Month[/b] with target lock as one of it's wargear options.
[/quote]

Well it's use was to avoid Target Priority checks...which no longer exist. I'll have to look again at what it's INAT use is, and I'll get back to you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334778.page GMT Well it's use was to avoid Target Priority checks...which no longer exist. I'll have to look again at what it's INAT use is, and I'll get back to you.[/quote]

INAT FAQ says to disregard the target priority test. Current usage allows to fire at different units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334790.page GMT INAT says ignore target priority checks and use the Target Lock for whatever it is supposed to do (I can't remember all the various uses.)

If you like, you assume there is a Target Priority check and it is passed automatically.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334791.page GMT Well it's use was to avoid Target Priority checks...which no longer exist. I'll have to look again at what it's INAT use is, and I'll get back to you.[/quote]

INAT FAQ says to disregard the target priority test. Current usage allows to fire at different units.[/quote]

Ah, okay. Not something I would use...but that makes sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334805.page GMT
Target Locks are however vital, imo, for broadside teams. In my usual set up of 2xHammerheads and 1 full broadside team, a target lock on the team leader gives you 5 railguns that can shoot at 4 different targets, versus 5 railguns that can shoot at 3 targets. Sounds like a small difference, but it's huge in effect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1334880.page GMT imo, for broadside teams. In my usual set up of 2xHammerheads and 1 full broadside team, a target lock on the team leader gives you 5 railguns that can shoot at 4 different targets, versus 5 railguns that can shoot at 3 targets. Sounds like a small difference, but it's huge in effect.[/quote]

I find in general I wouldn't want to fire at 4 targets but having the target lock allows me to split my fire so one target takes 1 railgun shot and 2 other targets take 2. 3 TL railgun shots is generally over kill for one target whilst 1 railgun shot is likely to miss, fail to pen or roll bad on the damage table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1336751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1336751.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1336990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1336990.page GMT
why? They're well worth it, and BS3 is average for an average trooper.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337034.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337045.page GMT
Argument for -- They need something to make up for their points cost and weakness in H2H.

Argument against -- Fire Warriors do need something but other things would be better, such as range 15 rapid fire, or a defensive shot against assaulters, for instance.

Various fluff based arguments.

My own view is that BS3 is fine, combined with markerlights, but markerlights need to be made cheaper, and FW need something else to make them better against H2H.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/267034/1337082.page GMT