http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
Sure you can break the crap out of anything if you try to abuse the list but the power seems to be at least in teh same ballpark for these two 7th Ed armies. Later books, not so much. To the point where it's almost certainly the list strength versus much of what the players do on the table that determines the win.

Other than Space Wolves and some of the psychic stuff that Nids are now able to do, seems like the armies for 5th ed 40k have also been fairly reasonabl on the power glide slope.

I know some folk will say that an outstanding player can win with a 'weaker' army and that list strengths are just poor players' imaginations but I don't agree. What's your take on Codex Creep?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296589.page GMT
Also I'm just going to say it now and leave. Daemons of mofoing Chaos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296596.page GMT LGS chain shrink wraps everything to prevent just that problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296601.page GMT
Fits perfectly with a company that admits to not caring about balance...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296606.page GMT GW keeps the codices behind the counter to prevent that as well, just leaving the open copy out.

But, yeah it looks like the newer codices/army books are stronger than the older ones. Except Tyranids that one seems to be well made and I haven't noticed any Codex Creep with that one yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296708.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296884.page GMT ID the b**gers now!

In fairness to GW (I know, I feel dirty saying it... ) the current crop of 40k codices are better balanced than they have been for a while. Fair enough Necrons, Tau and Daemonhunters all suck but are in desperate need of updates. DE and Sisters still hold their own even after a long time between updates - and hopefully all of these will get new books over the next year or two.

This is a significant contrast to fantasy where winning depends entirely on whether or not you play Daemons... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296899.page GMT
that, my friends is why some 'dexes seem week.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296922.page GMT
that, my friends is why some 'dexes seem week.[/quote]

Completely agree here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296931.page GMT DH are just outdated rules wise but Dark Eldar still can put up a good fight along with WH. Orks are doing well and Demons have their play style pretty much stolen and improved by Nids. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296940.page GMT
that, my friends is why some 'dexes seem week.[/quote]

How, exactly, does that make an older codex seem weak? Are you saying that because some people don't 'finish' (when exactly is an army finished anyways?) their army that we can't gauge the overall effectiveness of an army? Are the Tau a lower tier army because some people bought the book and some crisis suits and then decided to buy something more effective, like Necrons?

And you hate people who buy a second army without finishing the first? Really?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1296986.page GMT
1. They were never a top tier army, owing to various reasons.

2. Their codex is mid 4th edition. The rules changes in 5th edition mostly work against them rather than for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297008.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297032.page GMT GW makes on codex books^ depends much on a overall popularity of an army.

Like the Witch/Demon Hunters armies, The Tau, Necrons.
How frequently do you see a person walk in a store for a quick game with all Sisters army opposed to SMs???

And GW's stubbornness on NOT updating SOB's miniature range to multi plastics does not hep to elevate their popularity at all.

But I think I'll agree with the thoght that good players can mostly whoop with anything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297051.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297051.page GMT 40k armies are "flat" from a power standpoint, with relatively little difference in power between best and worst.

But then, that's assuming one builds an army within the preferred themes for that army. Trying to build a sub-optimal list is possible, and will perform accordingly.

That's actually NOT a bad thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297079.page GMT GW uses Codexes and Army books to help market its new minature ranges.
(They ONLY release them when they have new minatures-kits for that particular army.)

IF GW had a stable frame work of guide lines and methodology that spanned an entire editions worth of updates, this would not be much of a problem.

But the development team seem to change guide lines and methodology several times during an edition span.
This coupled with limited playtesting , makes the optimum -sub optimum efficiency divide across armies and units worse than they need be

Within a few days of release, the 'optimum units' have been identified by players , and posted on the internet....
If these can be detected so relativley quickly by players, it indicates a lack of playtesting, or interest in better levels of game balance by GW.

IF the asthetic elements were developed seperatley from the functional elements , niether would have such a negative effect on the other.
Rules development SHOULD be kept seperate from minature realases, IMO.

Background, assembly-conversion and painting resource books, released with new minatures to optimise the asthetic appeal would NOT comprimise rules development and game balance .

Seperate rule development and game play issues could then be adressed as required, not having to wait for incremantal releses years apart....


TTFN
lanrak]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297165.page GMT
Now try to find any more anti-tank in there that doesn't involve CC. Especially against high armor values.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297240.page GMT GW - they don't pay enough). I think quite a few of the recent releases (95%) are well balanced against each other, and compared to 2nd ed aren't that more powerful as a force but rather encourage larger armies. Where i think people struggle is on the whole between 3e and 4e where there was a change in style of the books/army lists and some of the books by todays standard are pretty poor. I think the newer books we're now seeing show that GW have figured out what they should be doing - making good lists that are fluffy E.G. marines getting a ML in a tactical, IG troops being so cheap they actually are very expendable now.

Feel free to shout me down!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297267.page GMT
In the 5e rules, Troops have been made more important and 5e codexes have cheaper troops than the 4e equivalents. This puts 4e and 3e codexes at a basic disadvantage.

Even so, Dark Eldar remain a competitive army, possibly because they are difficult to play so they tend to be used only by really good players.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297296.page GMT IMHO,

Codex Creep seems to have faded a lot in the last two years.

It looks like they are applying both math and playtesting (despite claims to the contrary), so that high powered units cost a premium, and it isnt as easy as it was to seek out set builds for power advantages. Kudos to GW for that.

Also the codexes are getting beefier and they are providing plenty of options for variant armies. Using orcs as just one example, its possible to think up about ten different lists that are viable. In fact, the lack of obvious power choices makes it quite hard to settle on one list.

The bottom line is that players are now obliged to use and modify an army with real play experience to find the list and tactics that works for them.

The situation is much better than it was ten years ago, when each new codex would have something bigger and better than everyone else.

Now, much better, there are aesthetic and modelling reasons to chase a new army rather than power play.

The guys who keep canning GW all the time aren't noticing that they have been reading and responding to complaints consistently for the past three years or so, and certainly with the changes of managment, they are very much attentive and responsive to the players views about all this.

OTG.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297495.page GMT
That's a bit disturbing...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297547.page GMT 40k any more?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297649.page GMT
In the 5e rules, Troops have been made more important and 5e codexes have cheaper troops than the 4e equivalents. This puts 4e and 3e codexes at a basic disadvantage.

Even so, Dark Eldar remain a competitive army, possibly because they are difficult to play so they tend to be used only by really good players.

[/quote]

I've seen plenty of bad details players as well. Ive never bought the whole "de players are just really good" perhaps a better explanation is that 5th ed made vehicles more popular and plasma cannons are great now too due to no partials in 5th. Troops are key as everyone know

De has had the same list for 10 years and it just happens dark lances, ap2 blast and 6 troops is much better in 5th]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297909.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297929.page GMT DE players seem to lean toward the 'good' side of the curve...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297930.page GMT
However, the reason they tend to be used by good players is simply thus: bad players cannot use them to their full potential. They're too unforgiving for someone who is not very familiar with the game. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297988.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1297988.page GMT FA to maximize destructive potential and survivability. It doesn't matter if I only have a 5 man scout squad left standing on an objective if I've smacked down everything else you own. Just saying locally, and all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298103.page GMT
Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298146.page GMT
Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.[/quote]

That would make sense if they actually made models for the new coolest of the cool units instead you get one or two new models and then the rest spread out over the lifespan of the current edition. Maximizing sales would mean making the whole line available so people run out and buy the new cooles of the cool models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298183.page GMT
In the 5e rules, Troops have been made more important and 5e codexes have cheaper troops than the 4e equivalents. This puts 4e and 3e codexes at a basic disadvantage.

Even so, Dark Eldar remain a competitive army, possibly because they are difficult to play so they tend to be used only by really good players.

[/quote]

I've seen plenty of bad details players as well. Ive never bought the whole "de players are just really good" perhaps a better explanation is that 5th ed made vehicles more popular and plasma cannons are great now too due to no partials in 5th. Troops are key as everyone know

De has had the same list for 10 years and it just happens dark lances, ap2 blast and 6 troops is much better in 5th[/quote]

Yes, but.

DE are no more popular now than they were under 4e, and seem to be achieving similar high rankings in tournaments as they did under the 4e rules.

Of course it is increasingly hard to make that argument since there are fewer tournaments happening than used to.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298192.page GMT
Every time a new codex comes out, armies need to change and adapt to win.

Simple as that.

Orks were made:
"Oh nose! my lascannon marines need to have other things in the army to deal with huge hordes!"

When chaos came out:
"Oh nose!psyker powers! I need something to defend against psykers!"

When deamons can out:
"Oh nose! I need something good at close combat to deal with these guys!"

Get the drift?

My point is each update to the game means that you need to update your tactics and list to deal with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298194.page GMT
Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.[/quote]

That would make sense if they actually made models for the new coolest of the cool units instead you get one or two new models and then the rest spread out over the lifespan of the current edition. Maximizing sales would mean making the whole line available so people run out and buy the new cooles of the cool models. [/quote]

Lets look at teh average gamer- they cant buy a whole new range of minis all at once. But, if you feed them a cool new piece every few weeks they recover from the last bout of wallet-rape and buy the next wave. It works(from thier standpoint). CCG's, RPG's, mini games, keep feeding us addicts something new at a decent pace- not too much, but just enough to keep us wanting more ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298297.page GMT
Every time a new codex comes out, armies need to change and adapt to win.

Simple as that.

Orks were made:
"Oh nose! my lascannon marines need to have other things in the army to deal with huge hordes!"

When chaos came out:
"Oh nose!psyker powers! I need something to defend against psykers!"

When deamons can out:
"Oh nose! I need something good at close combat to deal with these guys!"

Get the drift?

My point is each update to the game means that you need to update your tactics and list to deal with it.[/quote]

To an extent, you're right in that each new army has new tactics that need to be accounted for. If all codexes were balanced, both internally and with each other, this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is, they are not. This partly by design, because it would seem to be quite hard to fully "balance" armies that play radically different; partly because of different writers/creative teams making different rules as opposed to a core rules team that put out everything; and partly because codexes adapt to the ever-changing pond of the metagame, so the later a codex is written in the cycle, the more it can react/reflect the current state of the game, updated rules, etc. By that standard, codex creep is virtually mandatory and impossible to mitigate. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298384.page GMT
Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.[/quote]

you mean like a plastic demon prince, plastic horrors, plastic plaguebearers and Demonette cavalry?

oh wait, they didn't make any of those.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298415.page GMT GW simply doesnt have the capacity, or ability to make every model in plastic as fast they, or we would like. Why would they make more chaos models right now- when everyone hates the codex? Those figs will likely pop up when they do the next version of Chaos(and they will- just like they did for 3rd and 4th ed)

Notice that most of the kits that are in plastic and come out in the first wave of a codex release are something that most army will need multiples of- Drop pods, valkyries, Tyrgons(since the kits is base for the other TMC's)- this isnt set in stone with every codex release but you can be pretty sure its what they are aiming for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298719.page GMT
40K though is probably more balanced than it has ever been (except maybe during the rulebook only phase of 3rd ed) at least amongst the last 6 armies.

Marines, Orks, Daemons, Guard, Space Wolves and now Nids all seem to be at a fairly even keel. Daemons may be slightly weaker and wolves slightly too good (in their defense though some of the abusive wolf armies aren't even space wolf armies but guard armies made with space wolf rules. If you want to run 9 razorbacks and have 0 cc capability why don't you go build a mech guard army to do the same thing but then it will be fluffy) but we see all of these doing well at tournies and there's no obvious wolves can't beat orks/ orks can't beat guard situation.

The problem is that starting from Orks the power level of all these codecii has skyrocketed vs the 4th ed mean. Cheaper troops, cheaper vehicles, more powerful characters, multiple viable builds, powerful army wide special rules, squadrons of heavy tanks, powerful psykers, etc.

Of the 4th/ 3rd ed lists eldar, dark eldar, sisters, marine variants and chaos can all bring a decent game to the table but are at a step removed from the 5th ed mean.

Tau have serious design issues that were present even during their heyday and need a radical rethink and expansion.

Necrons have been seriously screwed by the 5th ed core rule book changes and are hands down the worst army in the game. They need a new rulebook more than anyone (even DE) to become playable and rumour has it they may be in luck soonish.

Daemonhunters have always been crap but make for fine allies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298731.page GMT SM librarians for some bizarre reason, not to mention the new IG codex, if anythingcan be opted to win that´s it.

Lets wait till we see what blood angels get and if their codex will in turn slightly beat the space wolfs then there is most certainly some form of codex creep.

On the downside this means my SM army will get more and more under performing to all the new things.
On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298849.page GMT On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable[/quote]

One can only hope. It would be the one saving grace of the whole fiasco.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298871.page GMT On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable[/quote]

One can only hope. It would be the one saving grace of the whole fiasco.[/quote]

Now THAT would be funny - and pretty much make it all worth it, and it would be OK...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1298989.page GMT DE will be the most broken army out there when their codex gets done. They'll be so good that the next codex wont be til around 2020.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299059.page GMT DH changing that much from an FOC point of view. Maybe they'll be more powerful but remember there is the rumor that the Ordos will all be combined into one codex and that might drastically change them.

I think Tau were a top tier army back in 4th edition but the new ruleset has really nerfed them a lot. DE had a strong run in the old GW GTs back when 3rd edition first came out. It's kind of funny because prior to that run everyone said they stinked. I don't see them as a top tier army now, as a friend of mine pointed out to me the new TLOS rules really hurt their raider blitz. While they are still touted as SM killers actually shooty SM can handle them quite well. DE was designed to use the divide & conquer strategy so if you can castle your army they will fold... Sure they are highly mobile and great at using their speed to bring about numerical supremacy but if they are staring down an entire army with all units supporting each they are hard pressed. I refer to this as circling the wagons, it works very well versus DE.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to change your existing army list to handle new armies though this is definitely not always the case. To me SM and CSM don't have an answer for daemons and if you retool your list to go anti daemon then you could leave yourself wide open versus other existing armies. The best way to handle daemons is via a heavily mechanized army and it's not like people weren't building mech lists prior to the release of daemons. That's just the way it is now. Most good armies will have some mobility, lots of shooting and some good assault units. Of course if your army can do two of those attributes very well (IG quickly comes to mind) then you are still in good shape and possibly even moreso than an army that is good at all three but not overly strong in any one category. Daemons are very interesting to me in this regard since you can tailor a list to do quite well in any one category or even two out of three. With Khorne daemons you can build a list where every unit ignores armor saves in close combat and that is a huge problem for SM & CSM. Tzneetch daemons are both highly mobile and can pour out tonnes of dakka. Slaanesh has a few good units such as the Masque, Fiends and the Keeper of Secrets... But let's be very honest, when have you ever seen a pure Slaanesh daemon army? Never, daemonettes are a very weak troop choices when compared to Plague Bearers and Bloodletters. Nurgle only has one viable build, the Tallyman and that list is prone to problems if the preferred wave (including Epidemius) comes in after the 1st turn. A lot of people are starting to discover some success with multi god armies and I'm not referring to the Fateweaver/Crusher spam list. GW retconned the daemonic background so it's okay now to field a multi god army and I think that's cool that GW had the vision to go in that direction in the face of all of the players that used to run daemon bombing CSM armies.

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299238.page GMT
From a Creep standpoint, about the only major change is with Transports getting somewhat cheaper, but this trades off against Shooting getting generally worse across the board.

From a Churn standpoint, this is SOP by GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299245.page GMT DE I think GW will make them absolute OP powerhouses since they get new models and those will need to sell and sell well.

Speaking of DH I believe they will get either a new of jetbikes unit or at least a special character on a jet bike like the DA did. We have been pushing really really hard for GK jetbike rules on another board for ages now and besides necrons I cant think of any army that is in such a need for more options and choices.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299700.page GMT WHFB side.
My battlecry and bragging point whenever somebody says their Chaos Demons can do this or that is to say: "Well, Dwarfs can march every turn AND within 8" of the enemy! That's a massive six inches of movement EVERY turn, Pal!" ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299969.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1299969.page GMT
{{{{{{{{IDK what you guys are saying...

I started with Space Marines in 2008, since they came with the AOBR box I got when I first picked up this game while browsing the mall and walking into my first Games Workshop...

They were pretty fun but got boring around may of 2009 tho, so I went with Imperial Guard, they were pretty good in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and I saw someone feilding a huge tank called a "Shadow-sword" or something in apocalyptic 40 k (Or something like that). Plus, I got guys that were like, just as good as spacemarines with a 2+ cover when I put them togeather. AND they flew in airplanes that shot lazers.

BUt then they got boring around October of 2009 when the Wolf codex came out. Wolverine is like, my BEST XMAN EVER! So I swapped to that army real quick and took things that were like my old devestating marines but better (Longteeth?!?! lol) and "Ba-jorn the Drednot" (He was really good). Plus I didn't even have to buy much cause I cud just use my AOBR guys with some other normal Space Marines (Since they look the same).

Then my friend at my LGS told me about the nids. I LOVED ZERG RUSH IN STARCRAFT and I have been LOVING NIDS since their codex first came out last month. (Aliens are AWESOME!!!). I'm kinda sad tho, cause they are not as good as my space marines, but the look SO MUCH COOLER!

Maybe Space Marines will get another codex this year with Jet-Planes like IG. That would be cool, then I could use my IG planes instead of buying new ones. Blood Angels also look fun cause I like vampires, plus my big brother told me that Blood Angels used to be the BEST cause they are fast and stuffs.

Did I mention I don't paint my guys?" }}}}}}}}

If the above is you... drive while intoxicated...

If you know someone like the above, push them over. (For me please)

BOT: Codex Creeping in 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair, but I'm actually rather terrified with how deadly BA could be...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300000.page GMT
When i first saw the 5th nid book, i screamed imbalance as everything has really quite good stats, better guns, and amazing psyker powers. However, changes to nid rules were made and nids arent overpowered any more than any new codex always is. But after time and more codicies come out, everything is fairly balanced.

But shouldnt the new dex be strong? If blood angels are completely underpowered few people are going to spend money on them. In reality neither space wolves or tyranids or any of the new books are overpowered, just new. New tacits, new units, new rules, of course it would seem strong.

I play chaos daemons and chaos space marines. While Daemons was one of the first books to be made for 5th i dont believe them overpowered, or that they ever were. They are still said to be non-competetive. But i enjoy playing with them and i certainly dont lose due to codex.

I dont believe blood angels will be overpowered, or that everybody is going to switch to them. I do believe some space marine players will quickly switch, but i believe the 5th space marine book is quite underpowered. Simple converstions and a new book solve the problem and make people happy. Something GW doesnt often do, make their customers happy... I wont blame anybody who plays them or scream codex creep. I play for fun, i dont mind losing. but i like to win. Only makes sense to pick an army that can satisfy both. Whether or not its new is irrelevant.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300072.page GMT Well the DA codex was hands down underpowered.

As for daemons you are right.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300786.page GMT 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..[/quote]
One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1300863.page GMT
Having moved back to guard after many years, at first i thought they were way overpowered, now i think it's more to do with players being given more choices and differnt tactics/ways of using the units, especially in new ways - the orders system rocks! - that other players took a little while to get used to. Guard are no longer an army that once you rech the front line you win, they are jsut as dangerous up close if you know what you're doing. Part of this is down to the changes in 5th ed, partly down to having so many options you can sacfrifice units in order to protect others. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302157.page GMT 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..[/quote]
One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal. [/quote]

Most brand new codexes contain one or two clever tricks which are quickly exploited successfully by clever players. They quickly spread due to teh Internets, and get copied widely. Then the clever players deploy a counter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302216.page GMT Fantasy, similarly, has a more tiered system than an actual creep. It's that some armies are at one power level, and others are at a totally different power level. Also, they have edition lag.
Daemons are definitely the worst offender, in fantasy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302244.page GMT
Ok, what in 5th ed hurt Tau?

Also, it seems like GW has picked a power level and stayed there for the last few codices. Meaning they are finally realizing that a quality, balanced game sells more models then putting out the new uber army every 6 months.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302531.page GMT 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..[/quote]
One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal. [/quote]

Take a hood, not too hard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302532.page GMT
Ok, what in 5th ed hurt Tau?

Also, it seems like GW has picked a power level and stayed there for the last few codices. Meaning they are finally realizing that a quality, balanced game sells more models then putting out the new uber army every 6 months.[/quote]
Mech Tau consistently pwn the local MEQ crowd. Tau Player smartly mins his Troops and maxes out everything that can shoot (since that's a Tau strength). He kits out his HQ for close combat----he took out a charging Dread in one round----and fields lots of marker lights so he wears out anything that moves, doesn't move, etc. Granted, we do play on 5 x 5 tables, giving him additional round of shooting in most cases but he shoots and moves and uses those missiles that hit automatically w/o LOS to great effect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302547.page GMT
TLoS also hurts Tau because it makes the jump-shoot-jump tactic less useful because the suits are less easily hidden in cover.


@privateer4hire
That extra size of the table probably makes a lot of the difference. Also, you've got the results of only one Tau player (who may happen to be very good) against a group of MEQ players, many of whom may be weak. It's anecdotal evidence.

No-one is saying Tau are a very weak army now, however there are clear reasons why they suffer more disadvantage under 5e than most other armies.

It depends on your definition of strength of an army. If I make up some figures to show the argument, on a 1-10 scale, Tau are probably on a 6 and the new codexes (SM, Nids, Orks, IG) are between 7 and 9. It's not like a difference between 1 and 10 but it is a significant difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1302813.page GMT TLOS, Running) the Tau don't mesh with the rules quite as well as before, but still have to pay points-wise like they do.

Honestly, the only thing I'd like to see change for the Tau is the points costs of Fire Warriors and Vespids go down.

Oh and a removal of redundant verbiage like Target Priority references in the armory sections.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303096.page GMT
Head over to the Proposed Rules forum and check the what to do about Tau threads.

Back OT, there was a sweet spot for Tau when their 4e codex had come out and several other armies such as IG, Orks and Eldar had old codexes, where they were competitive. Newest codex effect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303546.page GMT
Head over to the Proposed Rules forum and check the what to do about Tau threads.

Back OT, there was a sweet spot for Tau when their 4e codex had come out and several other armies such as IG, Orks and Eldar had old codexes, where they were competitive. Newest codex effect.[/quote]

I would disagree. Tau are very much like Eldar or Dark eldar. In the fact that they have 1 power build. Unfortunately changing a lot from this list means you go from a top tier list to a bottom of the tier list.

Its just that with Eldar and DE and some other armies, people have grown to accept that their is 1 good build and to stay away from others or from changing it too much.

So this point actually brings me back on topic.
With the new Codices, I wouldn't say there is a power creep, however I would say each book has many more Top Tier armies.

SM, IG, SW ect.. can build 6 different Top Tier armies, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, DA ect.. can only build 1. Its not so much a power creep as GW making every unit in a Codex actually good and usable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1303623.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304136.page GMT
Ninja-Tau? I wouldn't even call that a power build...
Uhhh.... fish o fury?.....that was nerfed by TLOS; though I have considered puting my fish on valkyrie bases.... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304155.page GMT
Ok, what in 5th ed hurt Tau?

Also, it seems like GW has picked a power level and stayed there for the last few codices. Meaning they are finally realizing that a quality, balanced game sells more models then putting out the new uber army every 6 months.[/quote]

- Fish of fury died because of TLOS for starters.

- every army got faster which helps everyone except tau who were already quite fast and now just have fewer turns to shoot people

- cover dramatically improved which helps people get into cc and doesn't really help the shooty armies much

- TLOS killed Jump Shoot Jump

- only troops score meant tau players had to invest more pts into their very weak troop section and/or had to be more conservative with their firewarriors

- assault is even more deadly so when previously suits/kroot could at least bog down a decent cc unit now they will be chased and cut down with ease

- much wargear is redundant, useless or not as effective but still priced at old effectiveness

- KP missions hurts the army with small squads and lots of units

- outflank helps people get to tau lines more easily without being shot

- everything in reserve denies tau players 2 turns of shooting on average but probably still leaves enough rounds of cc to kill the tau



They did however benefit from a few boosts

- optional reserves allow for "ninja tau"

- no more conolidate into assault

- railguns got even better relative to other anti-tank weapons in the game being one of the only long ranged ap1 guns there is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304181.page GMT LOS to great effect.[/quote]

And you don't realize how much an extra round of shooting helps him? That is something akin to playing a close combat army on a 3 foot wide table and wondering why they are so good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304376.page GMT Da Boss]Fantasy, similarly, has a more tiered system than an actual creep. It's that some armies are at one power level, and others are at a totally different power level. Also, they have edition lag.
Daemons are definitely the worst offender, in fantasy.[/quote]
In WFB, are the tiers divided into newer vs older? If so, that's prima facie evidence of creep.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1304664.page GMT As far as I can tell, the power increase seems to vary from slight to very noticable, dependant on how much investment-return ratio GW corperate expect from the new minature releases.
As corperate instruct the development studio on how 'appealing ' they want the new army to be.

Dont blame the game devs/studio staff , they just do the best they can under difficult circumstances.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1317948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1317948.page GMT cc unit now they will be chased and cut down with ease

- KP missions hurts the army with small squads and lots of units [/quote]
Dunno, assault is no longer allowed to sweep into secondary units and thus favors tau greatly.
And I dont know how a full sized kroot unit is being "small".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318095.page GMT SM was strong, then IG was arguably the strongest of the crop, SW was good, then Nids was arguably the weakest since Daemons. (This is not to say I'm on the "my Nids got nerfed" bandwagon...just that objectively, the Nid 'dex seems lower in overall power level than other recent codex levels, particularly the IG.)

I find it particularly strange that IG (arguably the strongest of the 5th/late 4th codices) and Nids (arguably one of the weakest) were handled by the same person. You'd think those two at least would have similar power levels.

But it's not that they've been tracking upward...I think the overall power level of the books took a step up with Orks and then attempted to pretty much stay in the same place. They're just not very good at it, and not very good at telling how things will compare to each other. My very first read through the IG dex, I was amazed at all the good stuff, all the options, all the ways one could build a strong army...didn't even know where to start. My first read of the Nid book...meh. Clearly some good units here and there, but nowhere close to IG levels.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318124.page GMT I'd like to think that too, but have you ever tried playing a game as DH or DE? Codex creep happens. Not in every case, but it happens.

[quote=sirisaacnuton]I find it particularly strange that IG (arguably the strongest of the 5th/late 4th codices) and Nids (arguably one of the weakest) were handled by the same person. You'd think those two at least would have similar power levels. [/quote]
I agree with this entirely. My guess is that they've seen the insanity that Orks was and vowed never to let another melee army of that caliber to get out.

[quote=sirisaacnuton]But it's not that they've been tracking upward...I think the overall power level of the books took a step up with Orks and then attempted to pretty much stay in the same place. They're just not very good at it, and not very good at telling how things will compare to each other. My very first read through the IG dex, I was amazed at all the good stuff, all the options, all the ways one could build a strong army...didn't even know where to start. My first read of the Nid book...meh. Clearly some good units here and there, but nowhere close to IG levels.[/quote]
The Nids have some options, but none of the options they really need. They were crippled pretty severely by the loss of EW, individually configurable models, and some options that they only added for people who don't need it (flesh hooks?) I think that if the FAQ goes the way I hope it does, then with any luck they'll get to the point I want to field them, but I fear running them against any Ork army, because I've seen what either can do, and Nids can't hold a candle to them.

Back to topic, Nids was a step back, but that could also have just been because someone looked at the releases at a very high level, and decided to dial the creep back a bit. If I, completely unscientifically, charted them out on how powerful I feel they are, it would be something like this (on a 1-10 scale):
Orks - 9
SM - 8
IG - 8
SW - 9
Nids - 7

Between the "everything is a troop...if you want", the would allocation silliness, and the fact that they have Ghaz (as much as I hate passing judgement on an army over a single model), it's hard to top the Orks. SW comes closest with abilities that seem to specifically cripple armies, such as IG and Nids.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318291.page GMT
Yeh but nids have never had a truly reliable anti tank other than zoanthropes. Sure MC's are nasty, but other than nidzilla, i've never had a nid player get an MC into melee with me. MC's really shine at drawing fire and dishing out some big guns, but they tend to die pretty quickly to plasma and railgun fire. Even pulse fire lol, 30 or so BS 5 S5 shots at a carnifex are going to do some wounds. Nids needed a decent way to take down vehicles at range, and while the 3+ invul is really nice, theyre more flimsy because they arent immune to ID anymore, 1 failed railgun or krak missile save and its over.

As far as my opinion on codex creep, I think nids are pretty balanced, perhaps except for ymral(spelling?) genestealers, and I have only faced them twice and they did a ton of damage. They might be like nidzilla, seemingly OP until you work out a system to killing them then they aren't.

Personally I think space wolves are very OP, I haven't managed to beat them and I'm tired of smarmy SW tournament players who come to my local store and say I lost because tau can't play competetively. Sure, say that with cheap MEQ and 5 HW devastator squads that can split fire.

Another note on codexes, GW annoys me that theyre going to shove aside crons and DE, who really need a new dex, to try to milk people with space marine obsession by printing Blood Angels next. I have nothing against BA, but GW needs to reprint old codexes before making yet another new space marine army. I won't be surprised if DE and crons get pushed back again for a new dark angels dex, granted, DA need a new dex, but I play DE and i can say they are hard as crap to tie, let alone win, in 5th ed. Theyre a fast army who sacrifices firepower for speed and trickiness and fast melee... in an edition where tactics and tricks mean nothing and all that matters is the volume of S4 3+sv models you can get into melee.

If I were to rate armies from 1-10 on a power scale, taking in raw power and tactics I would see it something like this

Orks 8
SW 9
IG 8-9(theyre good on their own, but vendetta swarm is powerful)
Nids 7-8
SM 7
DE 5
WH 6
DH 7
TE 7-8(crisis spam is really powerful if you can run them cheaply enough, and 10-15)
Crons 6
Eldar 6-7
BT 7
CSM 8(dual lash MC's is nasty)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318365.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318838.page GMT USRs instead of stat boosts. I hated the way the SW codex felt. All its horrible 'remove models' rules made me ill. I hate rules that ignore another special rules as it feels a bit pointless and reminds me of the pretend fights from primary school where no matter what imaginary weapon you armed yourself with someone would imagine a better one and it would eventually go in a circle. I'm glad they moved away from that in the Nid dex.

I really liked the Guard, Ork and Nid recent releases as they all can be built in masses of different ways and all have weaknesses to make up for their strengths. With the orks it's the paper thin armour and lack of an ability to crack heavy armour. With the IG it's their weak and weedy troops and the amount of KPs they put on a table and a lack of strong close combat. And with the Nids their major weakness comes from a concentration of their best anti tank units in a single slot.

Mehh just an opinion. Feel free to ignore]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318871.page GMT I'd like to think that too, but have you ever tried playing a game as DH or DE? Codex creep happens. Not in every case, but it happens.

[/quote]

Well, like I said, I think the books as a whole took a step up in power starting with Orks. I don't think DE, DH, Nec, Tau, or even Eldar stand on quite the same power level as Orks, SM, IG, SW, and CSM. Not to say there are no good armies from those books, but as a whole they have a lower power level than the newer stuff. But within the new stuff (just like within the old) it seems hit or miss. Nids and Daemons feel like they fall in a kind of half-step up from the old books but down from the other newer books. And it's nothing I can quantify, just my impression of the books and the armies they produce.

In terms of quantifying books, my personal opinion puts IG as the best. Not to say that they are necessary the best army, but their Codex just strikes me as the best codex. They seem like an army could be made to beat any particular army, that they can make all-comers lists with no huge glaring weaknesses against certain builds (like the weaknesses of Nids vs. JotWW, Nob Bikerz vs. PBS or Lash, etc.), and that they have one of the best books for making a variety of diverse but still strong/competitive armies.

Since I have them at the top, I'll assign them a value of 10. Doesn't mean I'm saying it's perfect, I'm just normalizing my scale so that the top army gets the top value. From there:

IG - 10
SW - 9 (maybe like 8.5-8.75, but we'll round to the nearest whole)
SM - 9 (ditto)
CSM - 8
Orks - 9 (a solid 9 as opposed to the rounded 9 of SW and SM)
Nids - 7
Daemons - 7
Eldar - 7
Tau - 6
WH - 6
DH - 5
Necrons - 6

And I don't know enough about the DE codex to rank, but it's not super high.

Edit: since I normalized my scale with the top book getting a 10, I should also have had the bottom book getting a 1. Oh well, I guess it's a 5-10 scale. Imagine it's like a video game rating, where 5/10 means abysmally bad as opposed to average.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318888.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1318920.page GMT
(Weighted in terms of number of viable builds, as well as overall power of the best builds from that codex)

Imperial Guard- 5
Space Wolves- 5
Tyranids- 4.5
Orks- 4.5
Space Marines- 4
Eldar- 3.5
Chaos Space Marines- 3
Daemons- 3
Dark Eldar- 2.5
Tau- 2.5
Witch Hunters- 2.5
Necrons- 2.0
Daemon Hunters- 1.5

5=Most competitive, and 1=not competitive at all.

Back OT, I'm really hoping that the overall power level of armies has plateaued. Codex creep sells models, but I know that I'd like to see a more balanced game. It seems like everything from Orks onward is more or less on-par with other 5e codexes. Whether or not this trend will continue, however, remains to be seen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1319366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1319366.page GMT GW will always try to make fair and equal armies i.e for all the kiddies out there in the eighties space marines were toughness 3 so when the orks were made tougher rick priestly made space marines tougher see wd 129 this carries on ad infinitum. like a friend said to me, in twenty years time i wouldnt be suprised to see toughness 10 marines]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1319412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1319412.page GMT cc by everyone else, marines should be expensive so you only have a few, and i know people will moan but grey knights should be super-super human but very limited to put some off playing with them. They're the minority so fewer players should use them to my mind. But hey ho, GW don't seem to care about that sort of thing or they're main lines would be guard plus X alien!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1321132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1321132.page GMT GW will always try to make fair and equal armies i.e for all the kiddies out there in the eighties space marines were toughness 3 so when the orks were made tougher rick priestly made space marines tougher see wd 129 this carries on ad infinitum. like a friend said to me, in twenty years time i wouldnt be suprised to see toughness 10 marines[/quote]
Yeah, it was cool when Space Marines were T4, okay when they were upgraded to T5, and then pretty weird that they needed to be T6, but I think GW really started rubbing codex creep in our faces when Space Marines became T7.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1321456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/276822/1321456.page GMT