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How do you kill this thing in the 2k Gladiator?

The only thread I found on killing one of these was back when it still had mass points and slightly different rules.

He uses the Apocalypse rules pg 148. WS9 BS3 S10 T9 W10 I3 A8 LD10 Sv 2+. Shoots up to 16 S10 shots, has regenerate for those 10 wounds, and a bunch of annoying little rules too. Plus with the new Tyranid dex this thing now has the new 3+ Warp Field....

Seriously... how do you kill this thing? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309825.page GMT Seriously... how do you kill this thing? [/quote]

Take a Reaver Titan with 2 Laser Blasters and a Turbo Laser on the Carapace for 8 SD shots per turn.

Outside of that, you want to stack as many S8+ shots as you can. TH/SS Terminators w/ Chaplains can work if you can constantly keep charging it.

There is some discussion about whether or not it benefits from the new Warp Field rule. That rule is for the Zoa and its not a Psychic Power. (page 44 of Tyranid codex)
There is also the issue that non-damaging Psychic Powers can't affect GCs. (page 91 of apoc book)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309841.page GMT
It's late and I'm tired, but I didn't see it on the Imperial Units list:

http://www.adepticon.org/10rules/201040KIAApoc.pdf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309865.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309865.page GMT RAW it does not benefit from Warp Field. I do not know if the INAT FAQ will change this.
If it has a 2+/3++...it's going to be almost impossible to kill. I really see no realistic way to bring it down short of An'graath in the Fateweaver bubble (within the Gladiator rules).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309886.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309927.page GMT

OR


8 Swarmlords ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309938.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309946.page GMT Nothing. GC are immune to ID.
[quote=Clthomps]and army of rune priest casting Jaws of the Wolf.
[/quote]
GC are immune to Psychic Powers w/out a strength value.
[quote]
8 Swarmlords [/quote]
Gladiator uses normal Force Org.

[quote=40kenthusiast]The Slaaneshi 666 point Daemon will wipe it out without effort, and Kairos can escort it in so it doesn't get shot down. Should get a round 1 or 2 charge with all the lashing.[/quote]
The Hierophant will pour enough shots into it that it won't be able to get enough rounds in to get through a 2+/3++.

If it doesn't have the 3++, it's easy. Anything S8+ AP2 or power will smack it down.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1309956.page GMT
Kairos will get swarmed under by the rest of the army, so I would not count on him.

The immune to psychic powers is the killer. If I could have Doomed them, I think I can drop them.

By the way, they can’t be locked in combat, so if you plan on killing them in assault, they are free to leave.


I hope that there are 2 creatures that will follow the Reaver titian into being banned next year.

I posted my first Adepticon Gladiator list to my blog and I was wondering how I would handle the 2 heavy hitters An'ggorath and Hierophant.

The important stats of the Hierophant is 10 wounds, 9 toughness, and 2+ save.

The stats of An’ggorath is 8 wounds, 8 toughness, and 2+/4+ save.

Those 2 are brutes that take a ton of firepower to bring down. For example: 27 lascannon shots at BS4 to bring down the giant bug.

I planned on moving around An’ggorath and hitting him with a lot of bright lances, and he can really only kill one unit a turn.

Hierophant is a lot tougher. He can shoot 16 shots at strength 10 and AP3. So he is wiping out your army while you are trying to take him down.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310045.page GMT
Epidimus boosted nurgling swarms may also work.

Failing that, was it FAQed that gift of chaos from daemons doesnt spawn them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310247.page GMT
otherwise, as has been said, I'd recommend tons of lascannons and krak missiles...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310288.page GMT
Man, I would love to pull that one off. The look of your opponent's face when you tell him that his Bio-Titan was one-hit-killed would be spectacular!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310303.page GMT
Epidimus boosted nurgling swarms may also work.

Failing that, was it FAQed that gift of chaos from daemons doesnt spawn them?[/quote]

Posion effects work, but are modified to only wound gargantuan creatures on a 6...

[quote=Elric of Grans]Grey Knight Grand Master.

Man, I would love to pull that one off. The look of your opponent's face when you tell him that his Bio-Titan was one-hit-killed would be spectacular![/quote]

From the Gargantuan Creature Rules: "[i]All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.[/i] [new sentence:] [i]In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by ANY attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force Weapon, an attack that kills as a result of failed characterisitc test, etc.)."[/i]

So they are immune to ID of all types. Regular ID, all force weapons, any power that kills on a stat test (spawn, jaws, etc).

The only thing I can think of to put a dent in this guy is a crap-ton of TH/SS terminators...

Other than that I got nothing...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310439.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310480.page GMT By the way, they can’t be locked in combat, so if you plan on killing them in assault, they are free to leave.
[/quote]

Well, unles you're another gargantuan... Seriously, the Slaanesh girl can do it. Heirophant may be immune to psychic powers, but she can warptime herself, always wounds on a 4+ and ignores both of its saves.

[quote]
I posted my first Adepticon Gladiator list to my blog and I was wondering how I would handle the 2 heavy hitters An'ggorath and Hierophant.
...
The stats of An’ggorath is 8 wounds, 8 toughness, and 2+/4+ save.
[/quote]

An'ggorath is a waste in the gladiator. I ran him last year, just for fun. No army with him in it will win. He's too easy to simply ignore. Assuming he's in the daemon's first wave, he gets a few assault phases. He can't lock up, and can't sweeping advance. He doesn't ignore invul saves, so he has issues with other daemons, seers, and thunderhammer dudes. He's hard pressed to make his points back in a lot of matchups, and really not worth it.

What makes the heirophant (and reaver, and possibly the new tzeentch daemon lord) good is that they don't rely on combat to do their killing.

I think the new Tzeentch daemon has some potential in the right list. He's got the high toughness/many wounds -/3+ save thing going for him. He can fire a ton of random effects off, as most of his daemonic gifts are altered. Example - his wind of chaos is a flame template, so he can turn entire units into chaos spawn, if necessary. His bolt of Tzeentch is a large blast. He runs with an apoc barrage attack too. Possibly even more importantly, he can make new scoring units every turn, which can be a huge advantage in the gladiator.

But, like all the daemon lords, in a four game tournament, there will be one game where he won't bother to show up until turn 4. That's a ton of points to leave sidelined.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310481.page GMT
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180071_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Terminator_Titanhammer_Squads.pdf

other than that lascannons (go IG) would be a good idea]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310491.page GMT [/quote]

They are affected by terrain. You roll just as you would for a normal monstrous creature, but double the result.

[quote=Redbeard]

Well, unles you're another gargantuan... Seriously, the Slaanesh girl can do it. Heirophant may be immune to psychic powers, but she can warptime herself, always wounds on a 4+ and ignores both of its saves.[/quote]

I don't know. If your wounding a gargantuan creature with the help of warptime I'd say that's a psychic power that's affecting said creature. Which they are immune to.

[quote=The Angry Commissar]look at the space marine titan hammer formation. that should make you smile..

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180071_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Terminator_Titanhammer_Squads.pdf[/quote]

No formations/data sheets are used in the Gladiator.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310494.page GMT DP), wounding on 2's and ignorong armour so each attack = 43.3ish so aronud 20 attacks which would be very easy to get.
Rending would also ruin his day (for instance 20 charging daemonettes with transfixing gaze (running at 285 pts would deal 5 wounds for raound 3 or 4 in return and they go first.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310509.page GMT DP), wounding on 2's and ignorong armour so each attack = 43.3ish so aronud 20 attacks which would be very easy to get.
Rending would also ruin his day (for instance 20 charging daemonettes with transfixing gaze (running at 285 pts would deal 5 wounds for raound 3 or 4 in return and they go first.[/quote]

Tally doesn't work. Wounding on 2's (aka Noxious Touch) are poisoned attacks. As specified earlier poisoned attacks wound on 6s only against gargantuan creatures.

As for Daemonettes (assuming the squad gets into combat undamaged): 80 attacks, 40 hit, they must rend so that's 6.67 rending wounds, 5.67 get through with old warp field. That's pretty good. However, the question now becomes does the Hierophant get the new Warp Field. If he does, he will shrug off the nette's. Even if he doesn't, and you cause 6 (5.67) wounds, gargantuan cretures stomp attacks each model in you squad. So 20 attacks, 13.33 hits, 11.11 wounds, 7.41 dead daemonettes. He wins combat, you fail another save. He regenerates a wound next turn, then leaves combat and other members of his army shoot you up.

EDIT: I also forgot his spore cloud. This would wound half the remaining daemonettes. So with 13 left thats 6.5 wounded, 4.5 more dead nette's

However, a daemonette swarm could do the trick. Two 20girl squads would down him (without new warp-field). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310534.page GMT
I have never played Apoc with one of those things, but shouldn't Boon of Mutation transform that thing into a spawn? It is not a psychic attack, nor does it kill the model, it transforms it. Dont know how many others have played boon of mutation Vs the Heirophant.

Fighting it in melee would be rough. THe scything talons plus Lash whip means he gets rerolls to hit and your unit goes at I1. I dont think the T. Hammer SS termies are a viable option.

There could be lists that have 9 Vendettas and a Warhound, that could be enough D weapons and Lascannons to drop its wounds low enough to kill it in two turns. Just hope it doesnt take out your stuff first.

If anyone knows if Boon works on a Heirophant, let me know, thanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310537.page GMT
I have never played Apoc with one of those things, but shouldn't Boon of Mutation transform that thing into a spawn? It is not a psychic attack, nor does it kill the model, it transforms it. Dont know how many others have played boon of mutation Vs the Heirophant.

Fighting it in melee would be rough. THe scything talons plus Lash whip means he gets rerolls to hit and your unit goes at I1. I dont think the T. Hammer SS termies are a viable option.

There could be lists that have 9 Vendettas and a Warhound, that could be enough D weapons and Lascannons to drop its wounds low enough to kill it in two turns. Just hope it doesnt take out your stuff first.

If anyone knows if Boon works on a Heirophant, let me know, thanks.[/quote]

I agree that you should focus fire the rest of his army down, to win the mission. But going back to the topic of this thread, how to kill him?

As I posted above, no characteristic-check kills work. So no boon.

He can fire at multiple targets, and with two guns firing 8 S10 shots, he can down 2 Vendetta Squads in one turn. Against a Titan he would drop 2 void shields, glance and pen it in one round of fire. Personally I'd shoot the Vendettas as they are firing a greater quantity of damaging shots, then charge the Titan (he can also charge a separate unit). Or shoot and charge the Titan to kill it.

Also, when I said TH/SS Termies could work I meant a crap-ton. With Vulkan, and 10 termies (and the charge) the termies swing 30 times, hit 22.5 times with the re-roll, and cause 7.5 wounds. So it would take more than 1 squad to bring him down. However, again we come back to if he has the new warp-field. If so, your screwed no matter what you throw at him.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310554.page GMT
As far as the Gigantic Slaanesh Demonette goes, I think she can use warp time because it affects her, and not the Hierophant, but I would think that she can just be shot down by the 16, strength-10 shooting attacks.


As someone said above, the Gladiator usually has one mission that is nicknamed "screw the big ones" where if you take a giant point-sink model it get neutralized by the mission, although last years mission was rather tame. Last years "screw the big ones" mission I think had one model with a vortex grenade, the year before it they had a mission where you can put one of your opponents models into reserve and it comes on board turn #4. But if you are facing one, I would not count on the missions saving you.

I would also like to see other ways to kill them rather than just bringing your own gigantic creature.

Let's do some quick mathhammer:
10 Fire Dragons= 3.33 wounds.

10 Harlequins=3.33 wounds.

10 Thunderhammer Stormshield Terminators=5 Wounds, but getting them into assault will be hard. And remember that the Hierophant can just leave combat.

10 Lascannon shots= 2.5 wounds, and brightlances are worse.


So I can't figure out a good way to kill them. But as Just Dave said, you might want to kill the troops, and try to keep your troops alive and if you do not get the win, at least get the tie. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310579.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310710.page GMT
If this thing has a 3++, then the only way to kill it will be the big slaanesh daemon with warptime.

That being said, if your list can't kill it, then you are probably better off just killing everything else, and leaving the bio titan alone. But, since this thing has sooo much shooting, and a HUGE assault distance, this might be pretty hard.

I to am registered for the gladiator, and I am starting to thing that the smartest thing to do in order to survive fighting the giant stuff is to just take a bunch of little stuff, so the big baddies can never make their points back. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310751.page GMT ID do D3 wounds instead. So a Wraithguard has a 60% chance of wounding. A one turn Kill would require 16 Wraithguard. Alternatively, an Eldar Scorpion would do 6 wounds per round.

Large squads of snipers would also work. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310837.page GMT TL Lascannon + Powerfist Dreads
3 Predator Annihilators
Scouts w/ Sniper Rifles

Easy]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310882.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310907.page GMT FW to win.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1310908.page GMT
It has a Lash Whip, so you are I1 when in Base to Base. It also has Toxic Miasma, so toughness tests for models in combat with it, a Spore Cloud (5+ Cover, Defensive Grenades) and Regenerate (with enough wounds for this to possibly matter).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311141.page GMT

I really can't think of something that can reliably take it down other then just masses of th/ss termies]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311203.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311622.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311698.page GMT 2D6 if it fires no weapons, or fire one weapon and fleet D6]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311702.page GMT
Of course there are attacks that bypass S versus T and you'll need a lot to soak the Titan. Sniper rifles are out because as stated you need to roll a 6 to wound. So you can ask yourself if you want to build an army designed to take out the Heirophant or play the odds knowing you'll probably never face off against it. If you tailor your list then you'll have to make sure you can beat other competitive builds and you never know what exactly you are going to see at the gladiator. As has been noted there will be one mission that nerfs the bio Titan and hopefully that will be an early mission.

One way to kill it quickly (again assuming it won't have a 3+ invulnerable save) is to move in quickly with meltaguns and soak it at short range. IG quickly comes to mind but you'll need to hit it with everything you've got and not expose yourself to the rest of the Tyranid army. This tactic means you would have to go for the big kill early on or else it will blast apart all your transports. I would probably run an Eversor assassin as well since the neural gauntlet is one of those weapons that bypasses S versus T... You'll have to kill it in one player turn or else regen kicks in and the beast will rear it's ugly head again. If the Eversor could drop a few wounds that could well be your final insurance policy after you soak it with all the meltas. What I like about this strategy is you are taking the fight to the bio titan's doorstep rather than playing keep away all game.

Rending is another way to bypass S versus T...

G ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1311767.page GMT
I have a feeling that we will see a lot of Heirophants from the heart of Texas anyways.


[quote]One way to kill it quickly (again assuming it won't have a 3+ invulnerable save) is to move in quickly with meltaguns and soak it at short range.

G [/quote]

Wow, that would be tough to do...12" range is going to be hard to get close.

And just for your info, 20 Meltaguns at BS 3 will do 5 wounds, and at BS 4 will do 6.66 wounds, and that is shooting [i][b]20 MELTAGUNS![/b][/i]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312089.page GMT WS of 9 and defensive grenades? If so, the THSS termies and daemonettes will need 5s to hit! THSS termies with pedro buff will average 1 hit each, 3 THSS termies will deal 1 wound, so you need 30 THSS pedro termies to deal 10 wounds. If it also has a 3++ save then your talking 3 rounds of CC, if it doest kill any termies in CC ever , get away from them, or regenerate. Also, 30 THSS termies cost 1200 points!

Ya, it will be very interesting to see which of the new nid abilities this thing gets.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312361.page GMT [/quote]
You're I1 because it has Lash Whips, which make you I1 (nothing about grenades). And if it doesn't stomp you and you get really really lucky, a successful NFW blast will be good for D3 wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312386.page GMT
Easier said than done, but it does sound like the best option...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312707.page GMT
From the Gargantuan Creature Rules: [i]"All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.[/i] [new sentence:] [i]In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by ANY attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force Weapon, an attack that kills as a result of failed characterisitc test, etc.).[/i]"

It's an older rule, hence why it puts into two separate categories "things that cause instant death" and "force weapons". It lists force weapons as "something that can kill automatically". So with this wording it cock-blocks all current force weapons, as well as the older wording of force weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312840.page GMT
The Bugs can take the Bio-Titan, 150 Gants and still have 250pts for synapse. 150 Gants is not easy to take down with a Bio-Titan running around. It can shoot two different targets with 8 str 10 ap 3 shots per turn as it moves forward 12", then assaults anything it wants. Remember you only have 17 slots in the force org chart and this thing will engage 17 targets over a 6 turn game. OUCH!!

Toughness 9 is huge. str 8 weapons will need a 5+ to wound and str 9 lascannons need a 4+ to wound. That's tough. It takes up a huge footprint on the tabletop so things can't get away and as a GC it can't be tarpitted.

I only ever managed to kill one once. I had 6 ironclad dreadnoughts assault it at once. It's stomp attack dodn't kill any of them and they inflicted bigtime damage. One Ironclad was immobilised and we had no idea how to play the immobilised dread. The dread couldn't push back after assault (as per the rules) and the Bio-Titan doesn't move away after assault, the enemy does. We had no clue and diced it. The dread stayed and the Bio-Titan was brought down from the next charge of the Ironclads. This was a lucky occurance and it won't happen again.

I truely feel that unless the mission screws the Bio-titan, it's won't lose a game in the gladiator. I'm not sure if it will get max points every game, which is what you need to win the gladiator, but it won't lose.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1312876.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313100.page GMT
The clear problems with the thing is that no weapon can One-Shot it, it gets wounds back, shoots hard enough to make back it's points without fighting, cannot be locked in combat and can cover ground like a fiend. The 3++ doesn't matter much to most armies as they couldn't handle the thing as-is, it really only matters if you're thinking about running Ang'grath to counter it.

Ingore the Heirophant and go for phase out...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313128.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313155.page GMT The clear problems with the thing is that no weapon can One-Shot it...
[/quote]

What about attacks that don't kill it, but turn it into something else? Psychic powers are out unless they do damage, so no Jaws, but what about Daemonic Gifts. You've got a 1/6 chance of turning it into a chaos spawn?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313189.page GMT
What about attacks that don't kill it, but turn it into something else? Psychic powers are out unless they do damage, so no Jaws, but what about Daemonic Gifts. You've got a 1/6 chance of turning it into a chaos spawn?[/quote]

Been suggested twice actually. Again, it cannot be killed "[i]...an attack that kills as a result of failed characterisitc test, etc[/i]". So no boon, no mutation, no zogwort, no nothing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313211.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313241.page GMT
[quote]Because of their massive bulk (and multiple brains!), gargantuan creatures are less suceptible to psychic powers. they are not affected by psyshic powers (either friendly or enemy) with the exception of those that have a Strength value, which may affect them normally.[/quote]

Which means that the Slaanesh demon lord can't actually use warptime. Yay for poor design.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313458.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313471.page GMT So you don't get a KP or any VPs when you squig/spawn it? I don't thnk anyone plays that way.

Furthermore, [quote=Codex: Chaos Daemons, Pg. 73, Boon of Mutation]If the test is failed, the target is...removed as a casualty.[/quote] So it's pretty clear that it's "killed", even though EW doesn't work on it because the model is just removed.

Zogwart, on the other hand...[quote=Codex: Orks, Pg. 61, Zogwart's Curse]The target model is replaced with an angry Squig...[/quote] So it would work against the Hierophant if not for the [quote]Choose an Independant Character model...[/quote] part of Zoggy's rule.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313491.page GMT
EDIT: Dang, Iron_Chaos_Brute beat me to it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313495.page GMT

Or if you meant the warptime thing, it says in IA:Apocalypse that it is a psychic power. I can't see anything that makes an exception for Zarakwhatsisface, so as a gargantuan creature he isn't affected by it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313497.page GMT DE archon with agonizer( wounds on a 4+) power weapon or poison blades wounds on two but can take a save, combat drugs, goblet of spite( evens the weapons skill so both oppenent hits on three) and sheild field....

Yeah first time he fails his shadow field save hes dead , like most other models]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313536.page GMT
(This really is the "fuck your rules, we're playing my way" model)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313564.page GMT

EDIT- And I agree with grankobot, this is a "feth your rules, we're playing my way" model.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313588.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313635.page GMT +Wave serpent
+Spirit stones
+TL-shuriken cannon

X 4

= 1080 (1200 with decent serpent weaponary).

Although, str8 vs T9 (Wounding on 5's) & 5+ coversave & 10 wounds... eesh. All 40 (assuming none got taken down) only do 5.96 wounds. Which is not enough.

But does Works against any kind of army imaginable.. 12pts extra, minus one fusion gun and you get a heavy flamer. 15pts extra and you can now reliably take out monoliths. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313676.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313842.page GMT You can afford 89 of them for the same price.
Assuming you get the charge (thats a far assumption I think) the TGC would strike before you (thanks to Lash Whips) with 8 attacks = 5.3 hits = 4.4 wounds = 3 dead
This leaves 86 alive @ 4 attacks each = 344 attacks = 172 hits = 28.7 Rends = 9.6 wounds.

Even if you don't kill him on the first turn and he regenerates a wound or two, the 2nd charge will see him off.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
If I did my math-right, Daemonettes might be the best option.
You can afford 89 of them for the same price.
Assuming you get the charge (thats a far assumption I think) the TGC would strike before you (thanks to Lash Whips) with 8 attacks = 5.3 hits = 4.4 wounds = 3 dead
This leaves 86 alive @ 4 attacks each = 344 attacks = 172 hits = 28.7 Rends = 9.6 wounds.

Even if you don't kill him on the first turn and he regenerates a wound or two, the 2nd charge will see him off.

EDIT: Thanks to Spore Clound and Toxic Miasma you will lose a fair number of Daemonettes at the end of the turn but you'll still have enough to finish him off. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313870.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313870.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313881.page GMT ds them around the thing and then pop a mawloc right under it? Dosen't Terror from below state that the unit suviving the mawloc attack must be moved away from the blast, but if it cannot becouse of impassible terrain, it is destroyed? Ofc if i haven't got the rules wrong this would require large amount of luck with scatter and reserve rolls but if you use lictors and hive commander tyrants it could work! If it does your hole army are deployed and their biggest bug is dead!

Ofc I might be wrong ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1313943.page GMT
Doesnt it have ws9 and defensive grenades?

Thus, 86 alive=86 hits, 14 rends, 5 wounds with 3++?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314657.page GMT
Now if it didn't have defensive grenades then you'd be getting around 14/15 rends so he'd be down.
PS. I might actually take out a daemonette for 3 transfixing gazes (-3 attacks overall meaning the hirophant would only down 1.851...... daemonettes meaning it would in the end do better in terms of attrition)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314749.page GMT
It's pretty safe to assume that if you can come up with a way to kill a Hierophant outside of brute force, he's got a special rule that disallows it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314776.page GMT

Well, shouldn't you be able to use a huge amount of meotic spores and ds them around the thing and then pop a mawloc right under it? Dosen't Terror from below state that the unit suviving the mawloc attack must be moved away from the blast, but if it cannot becouse of impassible terrain, it is destroyed? Ofc if i haven't got the rules wrong this would require large amount of luck with scatter and reserve rolls but if you use lictors and hive commander tyrants it could work! If it does your hole army are deployed and their biggest bug is dead!

Ofc I might be wrong

EDIT: for accidently copying my avatar into the message]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314815.page GMT
Raw numbers may well work but actually pulling it off would be extremely difficult. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1314890.page GMT
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315292.page GMT Well, shouldn't you be able to use a huge amount of meotic spores and ds them around the thing and then pop a mawloc right under it? Dosen't Terror from below state that the unit suviving the mawloc attack must be moved away from the blast, but if it cannot becouse of impassible terrain, it is destroyed? Ofc if i haven't got the rules wrong this would require large amount of luck with scatter and reserve rolls but if you use lictors and hive commander tyrants it could work! If it does your hole army are deployed and their biggest bug is dead!
[/quote]

3-4 spores are normally enough (depends on the base of the Hierophant; 4 for square, 3 for round)
I thought of the same idea; an all strike DS nids should do the trick.
Just have to be carefull with DH inquisitors for other matchups.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315343.page GMT From the Gargantuan Creature Rules: "[i]All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.[/i] [new sentence:] [i]In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by ANY attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force Weapon, an attack that kills as a result of failed characterisitc test, etc.)."[/i]

[/quote]

Maybe its been said before, but doesn't Jaws just remove the model outright and not actually kill it automatically?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315428.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315448.page GMT

Well, shouldn't you be able to use a huge amount of meotic spores and ds them around the thing and then pop a mawloc right under it? Dosen't Terror from below state that the unit suviving the mawloc attack must be moved away from the blast, but if it cannot becouse of impassible terrain, it is destroyed? Ofc if i haven't got the rules wrong this would require large amount of luck with scatter and reserve rolls but if you use lictors and hive commander tyrants it could work! If it does your hole army are deployed and their biggest bug is dead!

Ofc I might be wrong

EDIT: for accidently copying my avatar into the message[/quote]
I answered this on the last page...either you have a 1-Dimensional way of killing a Hierophant or you do it D3 wounds and the game breaks when it can't move.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315490.page GMT
As far as the Gigantic Slaanesh Demonette goes, I think she can use warp time because it affects her, and not the Hierophant, but I would think that she can just be shot down by the 16, strength-10 shooting attacks.

As someone said above, the Gladiator usually has one mission that is nicknamed "screw the big ones" where if you take a giant point-sink model it get neutralized by the mission, although last years mission was rather tame. Last years "screw the big ones" mission I think had one model with a vortex grenade, the year before it they had a mission where you can put one of your opponents models into reserve and it comes on board turn #4. But if you are facing one, I would not count on the missions saving you. [/quote]
I actually faced a Hierophant in last year's "Screw the big ones" mission. The Vortex grenade killed it; my toss landed on target, and then it only scattered 3" at the start of his turn.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315511.page GMT Of course there are attacks that bypass S versus T and you'll need a lot to soak the Titan.[/quote]

I wonder, what's its leadership?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315657.page GMT
I think fire dragon spam is the best I’ve read. My math says 40 fire dragons (not sure how people have gotten 40 of them but I’ll run with it) put on about 8 wounds for approx 1000 pts. If an eldar army can’t find 2 more wounds in 1250 pts they are doing something wrong. Plus they would have a lot of mobility to avoid it or make it really difficult for the Heirophant to hit in cc.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1315762.page GMT Dark Eldar (Mass lances and multicharge wyche squads with agonizers)
Tau w/9 broadsides (Assuming no 3+ invuln)
666 slaaneshi uberdemon with fateweaver backup

Better option: Kill the other 1000 points with your 2250 and run away from it. Fly a landspeeder or drive a rhino 1" in front of it to keep it from moving forward. It can tankshock...can't ram. just get in its way and kill everything else. Add in a "screw the big ones" mission, or even a forced reserves mission, and the Hierophant doesn't guarentee wins.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316265.page GMT
- Blackbone]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316376.page GMT
- Blackbone[/quote]
Not the Cobra. I had one of those, too, and hid from the thing. The Cobra wants no part of 16 S10 shots, and D-weapons only do 1 wound (assuming you get through the invulnerable). A Scorpion would at least get a couple wounds through, but would be beaten up long before the Hierophant died, even if you managed cover + titan holofield stacking.

The Cobra's 10" D-weapon would be fun against the new 'nids otherwise, though - no more Eternal Warrior means picking up TMCs by the handful.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316513.page GMT
...another Hierophant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316539.page GMT
Edit: also, weaken resolve it down to LD4, dump a neural shreader onto it, fry it's brain for D3 wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1316741.page GMT For everyone still wondering:

[color=red]GARGANTUAN CREATURES ARE IMMUNE TO PSYCHIC POWERS WITHOUT A STRENGTH VALUE![/color]]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317163.page GMT
It's immune to special rules, is armed with 16 railguns, has a 2+/3+, T9 and more (regenerating) wounds than god. Good luck.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317211.page GMT
It's immune to special rules, is armed with 16 railguns, has a 2+/3+, T9 and more (regenerating) wounds than god. Good luck.[/quote]

You forgot the fact that it can stand on you if you get to close, and you'll suffocate too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317221.page GMT [color=red]GARGANTUAN CREATURES ARE IMMUNE TO PSYCHIC POWERS WITHOUT A STRENGTH VALUE![/color][/quote]

So would Gift of Chaos work?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317368.page GMT
According to the latest INAT FAQ (and all new INAT Apoc FAQ thingy), the Hierophant has no invul save.

So shoot it with lascannons. It will die. And rejoice, my children

+/UPDATE+]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317439.page GMT DoM gets zoanthrope specific powers despite it not specifically being a zoanthrope either.

But that's the yakfaq for you ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317446.page GMT FTW baby!!!

G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317494.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317512.page GMT DoM gets zoanthrope specific powers despite it not specifically being a zoanthrope either.

But that's the yakfaq for you [/quote]


The DoM 'issue' with Warp Field is the kind of thing that is constantly done in the new style codices. Unit-specific wargear are written with that unit in mind and then GW also writes its special characters using these same pieces of wargear assuming that players can understand that if the codex tells you to reference the rule on another page for the character you'll be able to figure out to swap the references for the parent unit out in the rule and replace it with the name of the special character who has it. They've done it in many codexes and they probably won't stop.

Is it technically accurate? Of course not, but its also the thing that very, very few players would even try do dare bringing up at an actual game for fear of being laughed out of the store. GW doesn't even bother to FAQ these types of questions because they think they're ridiculous...but I think we can rest assured that if they ever did they'd rule the same way we have.


Now, when it comes to the Hierophant...let's be perfectly honest...the ruling here was more about potential tournament-breaking ability rather than any rules as written. I mean, true, the Hierophant only has the Warp Field 'pyschic power' (which no longer exists...it is now just a special rule), so there is some bearing for that ruling within the rules text, but also giving the Hierophant a 3+ invulnerable save for no points increase is simply nuts.

The INAT FAQ is primarily focused on being a tournament FAQ and as such there is occasionally a real need to address strange situations that occur which can seriously imbalance the tournament...having expensive models gaining new rules for no new points cost because of the time it takes for Forgeworld to update their rules is a perfect example.


So yeah, pure, pure RAW the DoM has access to a Warp Field with confusing rules and the Hierophant has access to the Warp Field psychic power which no longer exists...but in the real world everyone already knows the DoM can use the Warp Field power and that Forgeworld will eventually update the Hierophant datasheet and we just need some rules to get us by in the meantime that won't be absolutely mind-boggling, unbelievably powerful.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317562.page GMT
G]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1317859.page GMT
Lukas the Trickster's "The Last Laugh" ability looks like it should work? It's no psychic power, it's no characteristic roll and it's no ID.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318176.page GMT
In one apocalypse game the space wolf side had 3 copies of lukas, all 3 failed to get their ability off; Scabeithrax, Angroth, and Gazzghkull laughed last indeed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318656.page GMT INAT FAQ is primarily focused on being a tournament FAQ and as such there is occasionally a real need to address strange situations that occur which can seriously imbalance the tournament...having expensive models gaining new rules for no new points cost because of the time it takes for Forgeworld to update their rules is a perfect example. [/quote]

Then the Heirophant should still retain the 6+ inv save then, if we are talking about keeping it on par with points cost and intent. Either it keeps the old rules or gets the new ones -- it shouldn't be some arbitrary ruling if at all possible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318781.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1318980.page GMT INAT FAQ is primarily focused on being a tournament FAQ and as such there is occasionally a real need to address strange situations that occur which can seriously imbalance the tournament...having expensive models gaining new rules for no new points cost because of the time it takes for Forgeworld to update their rules is a perfect example. [/quote]

Then the Heirophant should still retain the 6+ inv save then, if we are talking about keeping it on par with points cost and intent. Either it keeps the old rules or gets the new ones -- it shouldn't be some arbitrary ruling if at all possible.[/quote]


There is no 6+ invulnerable saving throw listed in its profile and there is no such thing as a Warp Field 'psychic power' in the new codex...so the ruling is not arbitrary.

Besides, the Hierophant gained the new Lash Whip and Scything Talon rules, so overall the Hierophant [i]still[/i] ends up better, even with the loss of its 6+ invulnerable save.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1320028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/277655/1320028.page GMT