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Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

 Galas wrote:
I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

Just checking, Is this a sarcasm joke or is this serious.

Not accusing or insulting, just confirming.

GW is putting out a new codex with price changes in less then a week, chill

 bullyboy wrote:
Don't buy that the new GW care about balance at all, not while Bobby G remains at his ridiculous points level. The points need to be closer to 450 or he needs to lose "reroll to wound" and the ability to bounce back (or he just bounces back with 1 wound remaining).
I understand he is a primarch and should be a beast, but the points are not justified.

Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.

That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.

Not having to wait 8 years for an update. . . I'm just giddy.

I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?

 Galas wrote:
I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.

That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.

 Vryce wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.

That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.

are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!

Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.

Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.

If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?

That's statistically unlikely for Rowboat there. Possible sure, but don't throw him in and expect that to happen all the time.

His real power is giving Twin-Linked and Shred to all Ultramarines. That might be worth a bump to 400 points or just making his re-roll for To Wound only affect close combat instead of all wounding.

Rowboat is the Spiritual Leige, and Ultramarines the flagship army.

GW has never been shy about its favouritism. Expecting them to actually price everything fairly might be too hard a stretch, especially if it concerns the Boys in Blue.

 bullyboy wrote:

If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.

The buffs alone is worth 200~250 points easily

The command points alone is worth 150 points easily


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?

That's statistically unlikely for Rowboat there. Possible sure, but don't throw him in and expect that to happen all the time.

His real power is giving Twin-Linked and Shred to all Ultramarines. That might be worth a bump to 400 points or just making his re-roll for To Wound only affect close combat instead of all wounding.

Is it...?

Let's see... Knight is T8 24w 3+ Save... No Invuln? Really?

Girlyboat is...
(6 * 35/36 * 3/4 * 3) + (6 * 35/36 * 9/36 * 2) = 16.04
or
6 * 35/36 * 32/36 * 5/6 * 3 = 12.96

Yea, guess it is!
Actually...
6 * 3 = 18, right off the bat we know that it's impossible unless at least 2 of the wounding rolls are 6s for the additional mortal wounds.
However it is definitely... possible!
Maximum potential damage being 6 * 6 = 36

Also, this Hand of Dominion Melee Profile is kinda of sucky...

 Ascalam wrote:
Rowboat is the Spiritual Leige, and Ultramarines the flagship army.

GW has never been shy about its favouritism. Expecting them to actually price everything fairly might be too hard a stretch, especially if it concerns the Boys in Blue.

yeah cause we all know Ultramarines have dominated the scene for ages...
ohh wait they haven't.

Believe it or not, though he is very strong, there are things that can kill Rowboat Girlyman in the game. Abbadon, Genestealer Patriarchs/Broodlords, Swarmlord, and Yncarne stand a decent chance of killing him in CC as long as they get the charge. The trick is to have volume of fire and multi-damage attacks to get around the 3++ save.

Ranges is a lot trickier. Apart from superheavies, the options are limited. Two or three Vindicares will kill him eventually, but you need a lot of heavy weapons shots to guarantee a kill. Hilariously, Magnus is one of the best ways to kill Girlyman at range. The potential for 3D6 mortal wounds fairly regularly means he will instakill Guilliman on an average roll.

Rowboat coming back is powerful, but he's no Saint Celestine. It's only a 50/50 chance he comes back at all, and he only get a max of 2/3 of his normal wounds.

For his cost, Rowboat Girlyman is power but not unbeatable. I'd say he's fairly coated for a combination buff character and CC beat stick.

I'm pretty sure Azrael is far more of a problem than Guilliman.

How is Azrael a problem?

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

I'm really not seeing him in that many competitive lists. I've seen several of our tourney marine players wanting buff bubbles, even a dedicated Ultras player, instead just reach for a cheap captain and toss in an LT next to him. With the new stratagems, you can now toss a couple CP and make the cheap captain a super-cheap chapter master.

He's cool and all, but being stuck walking and really wanting to get to melee to really earn his keep I think is keeping him off the high-end competitive radar. I can see how melee armies going against him would feel he's a bit ridic though, as they basically put him right where he wants to be.

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

What I think is incredibly silly is that the bland rank-and-file necrons also sport ld10. Random cannon fodder necrons are, each and every one of them, the strategic equals of freaking primarchs.

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

Was Azrael nerfed in the codex? I hadn't heard such.

Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.

And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.

And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.

Maybe, but considered from another POV it's actually benifitcal, not all of RG's abilities impact ultramarines.

if you where running Imperial fists, for example, you could take Gulliman as a LOW, and he'll still give you a "re-roll 1s" bubble, and +1 to advance and charge testsin addition to the 3 CPs if he's your warlord. meanwhile your Fists can, as they are part of a seperate detachment use their chapter tactics. (and gulliman, depending on the precise wording of it, may benifit from his own Ultramarine CTs)

BrianDavion wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Another thing is that him not being an HQ is pretty annoying. He's going to eat a detachment by himself, and considering everyone's "chapter/regiment/forge world" etc. tactics are going to require a dedicated detachment, that's going to make allied armies with RG a bit harder to run.

And even after paying a big chunk for a character, you still need to spend more on characters to open up some detachments.

Maybe, but considered from another POV it's actually benifitcal, not all of RG's abilities impact ultramarines.

if you where running Imperial fists, for example, you could take Gulliman as a LOW, and he'll still give you a "re-roll 1s" bubble, and +1 to advance and charge testsin addition to the 3 CPs if he's your warlord. meanwhile your Fists can, as they are part of a seperate detachment use their chapter tactics. (and gulliman, depending on the precise wording of it, may benifit from his own Ultramarine CTs)

Yeah that's true, but it doesn't change the fact that he WILL eat an entire detachment himself. When you only have 3, that's a hefty price.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.

I'm not the one being silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arachnofiend wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

Was Azrael nerfed in the codex? I hadn't heard such.

He went from giving the invul to anything he joined to DA only. Pretty big nerf.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How is Azrael a problem?

4++ Aura?

Oh the one that was nerfed? It's hardly a problem.

Girlyman gets to massively buff everything nearby, come back to life and of course gets the rare Ld10 for some reason.

yeah god forbid a fething PRIMARCH, having LDR 10.

Mgnus the red also has LDR 10. Complaining about quite literally the greatest leaders in the 40k universe having the highest LDR score is outright silly.

A GOD has LD9, the greatest Seer in existence has Ld9, warriors who have fought the greatest evil in existence for 10'000 years+ have Ld9. Being Primarchs is nothing to do with it. They have Ld10 because they're Space Marines.

I'm not the one being silly.

Isn't Asurmen something akin to the equal of The Emperor for Eldar, and is still 9

GW really want feedback on balance and usability issues. Why not relay the feedback to them, giving specific examples from games you have played?

I tend to agree that he is too cheap. Cawl is too, but given the rest of the Ad Mech character lineup I can tolerate that a bit more.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Vryce wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I think he is actually overcosted. Wheres the point of having Guilliman when you can take more Stormravens?

He and Magnus should be made minimun 50-150 points cheaper.

Magnus is a steal for his cost. If he was 150pts cheaper, he would easily be the most broken single model in the game.

That being said, I don't really think Guilliman is all that spectacular. He is a great buff character, but as a combatant, I've never been terribly afraid of him. I don't own the SM Index, so am unsure of his cost, but I don't see him incredibly often, so he must not be that much of a boon, at least for my general gaming circle.

are you serious...he one shotted a knight in combat, and the knight charged!

Reroll all hits and all wounds within 6" is insane...basically it's a case of what is the weapons' ROF? OK, I'll attempt that many armour saves, no reason to roll to hit or wound. In combat he is ridiculous, hitting on 2's with rerolls....S8 with sword so wounding pretty consistently....with rerolls of course. Heck, if you roll any 6's to wound he causes additional D3 mortal wounds. Any real wounds get through...translates to 3 wounds each.

Then of course he has the 3+ invuln and if he happens to die, he has a good chance of standing back up (save that command point). Command Points? He gives you an extra 3...because, yeah.

If you don't think he is worth 360pts, then you really don't know how this game works. The buffs alone and extra command points are probably worth 100pts, easily.

For around the same price as Rowboat I can field:

1) Pedro Kantor
2) An Lt with the Fist of Vengance
3) An Ancient
4) An Apothecary

The Apothecary can stand Pedro back up, and heals 1d3 wounds a turn on a 4+. Pedro grants 6" re-rolls to hit and +1A and immunity to morale. The Lt grants re-rolls to W of 1. The Ancient lets them swing on the way down on a 4+ (before being resurected by the Apothecary).

Pedro and the Lt alone dish out 10 x S8 attacks on the charge (re-roll 1s to wound, re-roll misses) dealing 3 wounds a hit from the Lt and 1d3 with Pedro.

Sounds about even.

 argonak wrote:

Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.

That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.

That's not incredible, it's appalling.

Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I saw a battle report where he took down a renegade knight in one round of close combat... make him 50 to 150 points cheaper ??? Really?

I heard that one time, Guilliman was eating in a diner and someone dropped a spoon, and Guilliman flipped out and killed the entire town.

 insaniak wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Whether you're right or wrong about the points balance, you need to give GW credit for making the adjustments they're doing. They've shown they're willing to look at things and change them within a single month of release.

That is incredible. To someone who has been playing GW games on and off for 25 years. . . there has never been anything like this. I just hope they stick with it.

That's not incredible, it's appalling.

Incredible would be GW getting it right the first time around so that adjustment wasn't necessary in the first place.

Incredible is the right word there, because perfect day 1 balance is a completely unreasonable expectation that no game company has ever achieved.