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So just been reading up on the 2 recent UK tournements where the 1st was won by a slow playing douche who scored low and killed a handfull of models in all his games.to "win".

The 2nd was the LGT which from all reports including a couple of local players who went was an absolute gak show, the highlight being the abysmal terrain despite GW sending a truck load that was not used. My lfgs sponsored the event and provided some of the prize support and was not happy his name has been associated with it so I can only imagine how GW feel.

So we have 2 events with heavy support from GW one showed up the inherent weaknesses of the 40k rules and the type of waac player attracted by them, the other was a heavily advertised and streamed event that was a fiasco and again did not show the game in a good light.

I cannot imagine either event was the type of advertisement they were hoping for. I see 3 choices for them 1. They carry on regardless and hope every thing works out. 2. They say feth this and go back to ignoring the tournements scene other than at warhammer world. 3. They say feth this and start an official series of tournements and take back control of there own game and make everything as professional as possible.

number 3 would proably be the best

Withdrawing from the scene would be a major step back and would be a horrible decision because it would instill a lack of faith in the community. It would also be admitting defeat and do far more PR damage than anything else.

For now I see them going with the current route for the foreseeable future as I do have doubts they will start a super duper official tournament scene of their own anytime soon. However I do think them going all in would be a good idea to really show they support their game and taking matters into their own hands.

GW just needs to understand some simple things:

1. Anything that costs less than 10 points per model should be evaluated. The Ork slowplayer fielded an insane amount of models because of how cheap it is. Should it be that cheap? For anyone?

2. Invulnerable saves have gotten way out of hand. It should be immeasurably difficult to get anything better than a 4++, with a 4++ being somewhat rare.

3. AP is beyond ridiculous, it is incredibly easy to get AP-2 or AP-3 weaponry with volume of shots. Which is why people focus on lots of wounds per unit with 1 wound models, and invulnerable saves.

They could go the middle ground and do more of a Wizards of the Coast style approach. Sponsored events. Events would be ran by the 3rd party themselves, but Games Workshop would supply a list of requirements. Things like terrain must all be painted, X amount of room per person, must follow GW standard point values and standardized rules, and judges must have all the most up to date rules on staff with X amount of available judges. (This is just an example.) If they meet these reqs then they get advertisement through GW and prize support, etc.

People could still run whatever the heck they want, but your on your own bub.

 Marmatag wrote:
GW just needs to understand some simple things:

1. Anything that costs less than 10 points per model should be evaluated. The Ork slowplayer fielded an insane amount of models because of how cheap it is. Should it be that cheap? For anyone?

2. Invulnerable saves have gotten way out of hand. It should be immeasurably difficult to get anything better than a 4++, with a 4++ being somewhat rare.

3. AP is beyond ridiculous, it is incredibly easy to get AP-2 or AP-3 weaponry with volume of shots. Which is why people focus on lots of wounds per unit with 1 wound models, and invulnerable saves.

Thing about 1 is you can't say just increase price. Orks rely on boyz and well made gunline will wipe orks off table in 4-5 turns anyway. If boyz went to say 7 it would be game over for orks.

Better solution. Drop point level, come down like hell's wrath over deliberate slow playing. But unless orks get significant survivability boost or ability to take out enemy units faster and earlier they rather need point drops to survive current meta

 Marmatag wrote:
GW just needs to understand some simple things:

1. Anything that costs less than 10 points per model should be evaluated. The Ork slowplayer fielded an insane amount of models because of how cheap it is. Should it be that cheap? For anyone?

2. Invulnerable saves have gotten way out of hand. It should be immeasurably difficult to get anything better than a 4++, with a 4++ being somewhat rare.

3. AP is beyond ridiculous, it is incredibly easy to get AP-2 or AP-3 weaponry with volume of shots. Which is why people focus on lots of wounds per unit with 1 wound models, and invulnerable saves.

Translation: I'm going to change the topic from one being about GW and its role in tournaments to me complaining about my personal beefs with the 8E ruleset.

BrianDavion wrote:
number 3 would proably be the best

This. Very this.

I like the WotC take on events.

Honestly, I think there should be chess timers for each phase of the game. Any units that aren't activated within that turn limit can't be activated that turn. Keeps slow players moving. It is supposed to be a battle.

It would be cool if a third party (with GW blessing) could operate as a 'Tournament provider' There could be kickstarter of sorts and the money could go into building a large collection of Terrain, Tables, Materials etc.

You could have an online registration and pool of judges and storage facilities when parts of the stuff or all of it wasn't in use. The same terrain etc could be used for all tournaments and the organisation could help set up regional tournaments with the help of local tournament organisers. Would be interesting to see a monthly regional tournament, fully supported by GW and the community.

I like the idea of officially sanctioned GW events.

Official GW recognized tournaments. They are already pretty connected to frontline gaming and the ITC so just make the partnership official.

GW offers some prize support (custom minis, dice some other sort of swag something to show off for bragging rights but not significant monetary value please) and maybe some white-dwarf coverage. Warhammer TV for larger (100+ participant) events with the caveat that venue/table/mission packs adhere to the "Official GW sponsored event" standard.

Submit sample tables, venue photos, pre-sale registration totals to GW and receive a blurp on social media, results go to "official GW 40k results" and a swag bag for top 3, best painted and best sportsman.

It would be awesome if at the end of the "year" there was a GW tournament of champions where anyone who finished top 3 at an official GW event would get an invite to the GW grand tournament or whatever they want to call it. Invite the painters out for a from scratch best mini contest and the best sportsmen for a round (or 7) of drinks...

I think it would be cool and the extra prestige or whatever of playing at an official GW sponsored tournament would be fun for me and I would think that other people would like it.

I feel like they should be involved in an official capacity but taking the tourney scene over while starting from scratch doesn't seem like a good idea and putting their heads in the sand doesn't seem like a good business strategy at all.

It is a great marketing opportunity with most of the costs/risk being born by third parties so it seems like a really good low risk opportunity.

They'll go back to ignoring the community by not supporting tournaments and not providing FAQ's on a regular basis. Been playing 40k since 2nd edition; it's a cycle that has gone full turn at least 3 times in my tenure.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
GW just needs to understand some simple things:

1. Anything that costs less than 10 points per model should be evaluated. The Ork slowplayer fielded an insane amount of models because of how cheap it is. Should it be that cheap? For anyone?

2. Invulnerable saves have gotten way out of hand. It should be immeasurably difficult to get anything better than a 4++, with a 4++ being somewhat rare.

3. AP is beyond ridiculous, it is incredibly easy to get AP-2 or AP-3 weaponry with volume of shots. Which is why people focus on lots of wounds per unit with 1 wound models, and invulnerable saves.

Translation: I'm going to change the topic from one being about GW and its role in tournaments to me complaining about my personal beefs with the 8E ruleset.

If you cannot see how one intimately affects the other then I don't know what to say...


GW is the one that has the power to make the tourney scene how they want it to be, which at its very core is tweaking the rules of 8th. Which in turn changes the meta and changes the way the wind blows in the tournaments they run. If GW retreats from the tournament scene due to bad ones then we're on a dangerous slope back to square one with the GW of old that castles up and gives its community radio silence and let's problems go for the entire duration of an edition.

in a games as broken as it is whit 0 sence of balance, and armys that are made unplayable for every major faq that arrives, does anyone realy think any turny player plays the game as it is ment to be by thouse who created the game?

no, the play it as it realy is: broken, unbalanced and very cheesy.
these turneys showcase how the game REALY is.

and GW can only do 2 things: withdraw, or throw 8th edition in the trash and start all over, just as they did whit fantasy to AoS.

Tournaments need to drop back down to 1750 or 1500 for starters.

The problem with orks is that GW took away the thing that is meant to balance hoards, morale losses. You can kill 20 out of 30 orks and they will not lose a single model to morale due to the OTHER blob of 30 next to them.

If they made mob rule only count the number of models in the unit instead of the models of a nearby unit, it would make orks a lot less attractive to green tide. But then again, it's not like Orks have any other way of winning.

Another problem is the simplified system GW have locked themselves into. Imagine if they could, for example, make the first 10 Boyz cost X each, the next 10 cost X+1 each, the next 10 cost X+2 each. But right now that is impossible due to their "streamlined" points philosophy, one that if rumours are to be believed they wanted to scrap altogether.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, I think there should be chess timers for each phase of the game. Any units that aren't activated within that turn limit can't be activated that turn. Keeps slow players moving. It is supposed to be a battle.

This is often proposed and remains a terrible idea. Chess clocks work in chess because you never take actions during your opponent's turn. If you want to make a move in 5 seconds you can do it and pass the clock right back, there is nothing your opponent can do to force you to spend more than 5 seconds of your time. In 40k, on the other hand, you often take actions during your opponent's turn and have lots of opportunities to slow play while their clock runs and deny them the ability to use all of their units. By the time you have a clock system capable of accounting for all of these factors you end up with a convoluted mess of rules and/or a rule of "ignore the clock rules, the TO will make a subjective decision about slow play", and you're in a worse position than where you started.

 Peregrine wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, I think there should be chess timers for each phase of the game. Any units that aren't activated within that turn limit can't be activated that turn. Keeps slow players moving. It is supposed to be a battle.

This is often proposed and remains a terrible idea. Chess clocks work in chess because you never take actions during your opponent's turn. If you want to make a move in 5 seconds you can do it and pass the clock right back, there is nothing your opponent can do to force you to spend more than 5 seconds of your time. In 40k, on the other hand, you often take actions during your opponent's turn and have lots of opportunities to slow play while their clock runs and deny them the ability to use all of their units. By the time you have a clock system capable of accounting for all of these factors you end up with a convoluted mess of rules and/or a rule of "ignore the clock rules, the TO will make a subjective decision about slow play", and you're in a worse position than where you started.

Then why does it work in WMH?

Peregrine- As has been stated before chess clocks function quite well in other games that require intraturn interaction. All that is done is to flip the clock to whoever is doing the action. It's something that warmahordes players do all the time. Or, are you suggesting that 40K players can't figure out how to flip the time back and forth?

As I understand in WMH you literally do no rolling in your opponent turn.

Then you don't understand WMH. There are a lot of times when you can be making attacks during your opponent's turn. And I do mean the full attack sequence and not just some abbreivated form of an attack.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Then why does it work in WMH?

Because most people aren't TFG cheaters and don't expose the weaknesses of the system. But you don't need clocks to deal with those people.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Then you don't understand WMH. There are a lot of times when you can be making attacks during your opponent's turn. And I do mean the full attack sequence and not just some abbreivated form of an attack.

If that was directed at me then that is some lovely gatekeeping there....

I've played in plenty of SR tournaments and the clock has never been an issue. I understand fully its use and how players play around it and/or abuse it. Do I pass the audition or do I need to wheel out further credentials?

EDIT- I see that may have directed at Galas- apologies if so.

I don't think GW will withdraw from the tournament scene, but you can bet that they will start offering terms for their support. Like Terrain has to be table top quality. All minis need to have 3 color minimum and based. 50% of a model needs to be GW product. You must have a floor judge for every 25 players.

Grimtuff- Yes, I should have been clearer. My remarks were an answer to Galas post just above mine.

Trying to support the tournament scene is a wasted effort for GW. Why on earth would anyone want to play on tables like that, with all the cheating and slow playing going on?

SeanDrake wrote:
3. They say feth this and start an official series of tournements and take back control of there own game and make everything as professional as possible.

GW had that. It was called 'Ard Boyz. If you don't like WAAC players, you would have hated 'Ard Boyz, especially if you ever made it to the finals.

 Galas wrote:
As I understand in WMH you literally do no rolling in your opponent turn.

there are some but nothing close to 40k

The much more robust scoring system helps as Slay the Warlord ends the game, or if one player gets far ahead on VP that more often than snowballs quickly to a win (if you get X VP ahead you win), plus clocks have been part of the game as long as its been about

But on-topic GW could experiment with granting 'offical' support to 3rd partys and monitoring feedback and cutting off anyone doing a bad job (which is open to abuse), and whilst this wont stop the odd gakky event a GW stamp of approval might help

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Then you don't understand WMH. There are a lot of times when you can be making attacks during your opponent's turn. And I do mean the full attack sequence and not just some abbreivated form of an attack.

As my knowledge of WMH is based in posts in this forum in chess-clock related threads and how it works in WMH, yeah. I don't understand how WMH works.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Honestly, I think there should be chess timers for each phase of the game. Any units that aren't activated within that turn limit can't be activated that turn. Keeps slow players moving. It is supposed to be a battle.

This is often proposed and remains a terrible idea. Chess clocks work in chess because you never take actions during your opponent's turn. If you want to make a move in 5 seconds you can do it and pass the clock right back, there is nothing your opponent can do to force you to spend more than 5 seconds of your time. In 40k, on the other hand, you often take actions during your opponent's turn and have lots of opportunities to slow play while their clock runs and deny them the ability to use all of their units. By the time you have a clock system capable of accounting for all of these factors you end up with a convoluted mess of rules and/or a rule of "ignore the clock rules, the TO will make a subjective decision about slow play", and you're in a worse position than where you started.

Then why does it work in WMH?

Or Guild Ball for that matter.

Every game that's implemented Chess Clocks has done this little "it won't work cuz" dance and once TOs finally bite the bullet and go with it, players never want to go back to playing without them.