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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

For fun, I tried to come up with a list of the primarchs paired off with their biggest rivals/bitterest enemies during (and after) the heresy. It generally matches up fairly well - what do you think are the biggest primarch rival pairings, and why?

Strong Pairings

Ferrus v Fulgrim - Best friends turned bitter rivals. Also, Fulgrim wound up killing Ferrus.

Rogal v Perturabo - Both Masters of Siegecraft.

Russ v Magnus - Jocks v Nerds. Plus, there was that whole burning of Prospero business.

Vulkan v Curze - Compassion v Cruelty (also, Curze tortured Vulkan for fun). But generally, the Salamanders are a relatively compassionate chapter - for example they care for the wellbeing of civilians, whereas the night lords consisted largely of murderers and psychopaths.

Guilliman v Lorgar - Loyalty v Zealotry. And they kept burning each other's planets.

Weaker Pairings

Lion v Horus - IIRC, The Lion felt cheated that Horus was chosen over him to lead the Great Crusade.

Sanguinius v Angron - They and their legions are melee specialists - I think they even had a friendly rivalry prior to the heresy.

Corax v Alpharius - Both are generally specialists in covert operations / general sneakiness.

*Shrug*

Khan v Mortarion - Fast v Slow? In all honestly, these are just leftover.

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Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Lion vs Russ - They had an argument so severe that their Chapters reenact it in ritual form each time they meet in battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/13 17:10:47


   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Ellicott City, MD

If I remember correctly the Lion and Cruze would be a good rivalry, as the Lion spent a fair bit of very angry time hunting him down on Ultramar after he hid on Dark Angel vessels to get there in the first place.

The Rogal vs Perturabo is legit and is honestly the main lever that Horus used to turn the Iron Warriors.


Vonjankmon
Death Korp of Krieg
Dark Angels 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Kap'n Krump wrote:
For fun, I tried to come up with a list of the primarchs paired off with their biggest rivals/bitterest enemies during (and after) the heresy. It generally matches up fairly well - what do you think are the biggest primarch rival pairings, and why?

Strong Pairings

Ferrus v Fulgrim - Best friends turned bitter rivals. Also, Fulgrim wound up killing Ferrus.

Rogal v Perturabo - Both Masters of Siegecraft.

Russ v Magnus - Jocks v Nerds. Plus, there was that whole burning of Prospero business.

Vulkan v Curze - Compassion v Cruelty (also, Curze tortured Vulkan for fun). But generally, the Salamanders are a relatively compassionate chapter - for example they care for the wellbeing of civilians, whereas the night lords consisted largely of murderers and psychopaths.

Guilliman v Lorgar - Loyalty v Zealotry. And they kept burning each other's planets.

Weaker Pairings

Lion v Horus - IIRC, The Lion felt cheated that Horus was chosen over him to lead the Great Crusade.

Sanguinius v Angron - They and their legions are melee specialists - I think they even had a friendly rivalry prior to the heresy.

Corax v Alpharius - Both are generally specialists in covert operations / general sneakiness.

*Shrug*

Khan v Mortarion - Fast v Slow? In all honestly, these are just leftover.


Dorn and Perturabo without doubt was the biggest rivalry, even more than Lorgar and Guilliman and Russ and the Lion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/13 18:25:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.

 
   
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 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine


The Ultramarines I hope you're joking...
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine

Is Storm of Iron good if you aren't a big fan of either legion?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine


The Ultramarines I hope you're joking...


Well I dunno... as I said, the two big sieges that we know of I can prove the UMs won! (yes I'm joking )

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

Perturabo is essentially the Napoleon to Dorn's Wellington if you'll permit the analogy. Perturabo was a master of aggressive warfare, systematically breaking apart his enemy into isolated elements, then hammering them apart. However, like Napoleon, he relied upon numbers, dispensible auxiliary troops and brute force to overwhelm the enemy. Dorn on the other hand, like the Duke of Wellington, relied on tactics of advancing, setting up a strong defence, weathering the storm of the enemies counter-attack, before advancing in a shock assault to break them. And like the Iron Duke, he relied not upon numbers, but tactics, discipline and an indomitable spirit (Not unlike British Infantry of the Napoleonic Era).

Obviously, this isn't a GW sanctioned bit of fluff, but it seems to strike a chord in my head

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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Warpig1815 wrote:
Perturabo is essentially the Napoleon to Dorn's Wellington if you'll permit the analogy. Perturabo was a master of aggressive warfare, systematically breaking apart his enemy into isolated elements, then hammering them apart. However, like Napoleon, he relied upon numbers, dispensible auxiliary troops and brute force to overwhelm the enemy. Dorn on the other hand, like the Duke of Wellington, relied on tactics of advancing, setting up a strong defence, weathering the storm of the enemies counter-attack, before advancing in a shock assault to break them. And like the Iron Duke, he relied not upon numbers, but tactics, discipline and an indomitable spirit (Not unlike British Infantry of the Napoleonic Era).

Obviously, this isn't a GW sanctioned bit of fluff, but it seems to strike a chord in my head


given GW's british roots It's possiable they'd not only agree with you but imply that may have been their inspiration.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine






Northumberland

If Dorn really was the Iron Duke in Space, I'd happily burn all my Salamanders to cinder, whilst singing the British Grenadiers - then start up an IF army

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Numine Et Arcu
 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




 Warpig1815 wrote:
Perturabo is essentially the Napoleon to Dorn's Wellington if you'll permit the analogy. Perturabo was a master of aggressive warfare, systematically breaking apart his enemy into isolated elements, then hammering them apart. However, like Napoleon, he relied upon numbers, dispensible auxiliary troops and brute force to overwhelm the enemy. Dorn on the other hand, like the Duke of Wellington, relied on tactics of advancing, setting up a strong defence, weathering the storm of the enemies counter-attack, before advancing in a shock assault to break them. And like the Iron Duke, he relied not upon numbers, but tactics, discipline and an indomitable spirit (Not unlike British Infantry of the Napoleonic Era).

Obviously, this isn't a GW sanctioned bit of fluff, but it seems to strike a chord in my head

Oh look now I want to start another Legion army.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Guilliman and Alpharius were often at loggerheads in the older fluff. The HH novels have pretty much ignored this and Praetorian of Dorn tries to wipe it away but we Long Beards still remember.

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Wasn't that a big part of the AL turning before the weird Cabal thing?

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Frenzied Berserker Terminator






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine


The Ultramarines I hope you're joking...


Well I dunno... as I said, the two big sieges that we know of I can prove the UMs won! (yes I'm joking )


They weren't won by the Ultramarines, the Iron Cage was fought by the IF's and IW's, the Ultramarines just swooped in and stole the glory. They had been fighting for ages before the Ultramarines came. As for the siege of terra the Iron Warriors broke through the palace walls and the Ultramrines didn't do anything that the other legions didn't do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/13 23:00:22


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine


The Ultramarines I hope you're joking...


Well I dunno... as I said, the two big sieges that we know of I can prove the UMs won! (yes I'm joking )


They weren't won by the Ultramarines, the Iron Cage was fought by the IF's and IW's, the Ultramarines just swooped in and stole the glory. They had been fighting for ages before the Ultramarines came. As for the siege of terra the Iron Warriors broke through the palace walls and the Ultramrines didn't do anything that the other legions didn't do.


In both cases the Ultramarines showed up as the siege had already begun, and relived one side, their fresh troops making the outcome of the fight inevitable (Horus did his whole confrontation with the emperor, supposedly, because he knew he couldn't win with the Ultramarines reinforcements present) That is HOW you win a siege, sieges are rarely won by the two armies fighting it, but by the army that gets reinforced first. But as I said I'm kidding

TBH the Iron Cage was an example of how BOTH Dorn and Perutrbo had allowed their rivalry to make them into complete idiots. Dorn walked into that trap, without sufficant ammo supplies, he should have had a supply line eistablished to feed him ammo and supplies right from the start. Perturbo meanwhile had his entire legion there apparently, so he was hunkered down in a fortress, under siege, with no hope of reinforcement...
He was eaither an idiot or came there TO DIE. as it is if Gulliman had decided he was more intreasted in killing perturbo then saving Dorn, and been willing to sacrifice dorn for that... the Iron warriors would now be extinct.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
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Mortarion hates Magnus (and Guilliman) more than Kahn. Morty even tried to persuede the Kahn to join up with Horus.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





yeah not every primarch had a rival. the Khan was "mostly forgotten but well liked when people remembered him"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well to be fair to Perturabo if I was an entirely worse version of Rogal Dorn I too would feel rather bitter about it.


How is he the worse version. His talents are breaking fortresses not bolstering them. Dorn was known as the greatest military mind but he couldn't compete with Perturabo in siege warfare.


the only two times they went head to head in a siege where Terra and the Iron Cage..... both of these sieges ended when the Ultramarines interved thus proving Robute Gulliman the true siege master of the Primarchs!

In all seriousness though I tend to belive both legions are more or less equally good. There is a reason why Storm of Iron is a favorite story of mine


The Ultramarines I hope you're joking...


Well I dunno... as I said, the two big sieges that we know of I can prove the UMs won! (yes I'm joking )


They weren't won by the Ultramarines, the Iron Cage was fought by the IF's and IW's, the Ultramarines just swooped in and stole the glory. They had been fighting for ages before the Ultramarines came. As for the siege of terra the Iron Warriors broke through the palace walls and the Ultramrines didn't do anything that the other legions didn't do.


In both cases the Ultramarines showed up as the siege had already begun, and relived one side, their fresh troops making the outcome of the fight inevitable (Horus did his whole confrontation with the emperor, supposedly, because he knew he couldn't win with the Ultramarines reinforcements present) That is HOW you win a siege, sieges are rarely won by the two armies fighting it, but by the army that gets reinforced first. But as I said I'm kidding

TBH the Iron Cage was an example of how BOTH Dorn and Perutrbo had allowed their rivalry to make them into complete idiots. Dorn walked into that trap, without sufficant ammo supplies, he should have had a supply line eistablished to feed him ammo and supplies right from the start. Perturbo meanwhile had his entire legion there apparently, so he was hunkered down in a fortress, under siege, with no hope of reinforcement...
He was eaither an idiot or came there TO DIE. as it is if Gulliman had decided he was more intreasted in killing perturbo then saving Dorn, and been willing to sacrifice dorn for that... the Iron warriors would now be extinct.


The ultramarines did not fight from the beginning in the Iron cage. They joined weeks after it began.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/14 08:01:05


 
   
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SoCal, USA!

"equally good"? LOL. Perturabo practically wiped Dorn's Legion. Clearly, Perturabo was better.

   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 JohnHwangDD wrote:
"equally good"? LOL. Perturabo practically wiped Dorn's Legion. Clearly, Perturabo was better.


Dorn wasn't in his right mind and made rookie errors as he was basicly attempting to punish himself. So thats something you need to take in mind.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

The rivalries aren't as clear cut as 9 vs 9.

The Lion and Russ had an epic rivalry. The Lion comes from medieval knight culture with strict hierarchy and structured conversation and honour system. The Wolf came from a culture where even as king, all were equal at the dinner table and respected one another, if you had beef you had the fight and moved on and had a pint on the loser.

But the Lion also resented Horus for being Warmaster. In Fallen Angels, he remarks that if he had been the first found, he would be Warmaster instead, insinuating that Horus' appointment was pure favouritism.


Ferrus Manus had a friendship and rivalry with Fulgrim that is said to be the strongest bond among the Primarchs, turned into the bitterest hatred.


Sanguinius and Horus was the bestest friends and ended in tragedy.

Fulgrim and Horus were also extremely close.

Corax was the only Primarch to dislike Horus entirely.

Guilliman swore death unto Lorgar after the Battle of Calth, and Lorgar was besties with Magnus, and Guilliman considered Russ one of the top 4 Primarchs he'd choose as part of his Dream Team. So maybe Magnus has an axe to grind with Robby G too.

Fulgrim in the modern age has a personal grudge against Guilliman for coming back to life and takes it personal that Papa Smurf didn't die.

Guilliman and the Alpha Legion had a fierce rivalry due to tactical differences.

Dorn and Perturabo are the obvious case.




There's just so many to discuss. The Primarchs weren't cut and dry good and bad reflections. They had complex interwoven relationships, as brothers do.

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Guilliman swore death unto Lorgar after the Battle of Calth, and Lorgar was besties with Magnus, and Guilliman considered Russ one of the top 4 Primarchs he'd choose as part of his Dream Team. So maybe Magnus has an axe to grind with Robby G too.


funny thing was that Lorgar thought Gulliman had an issue with him after Monericha, but for Gulliman is was just a case of following orders, and not ones he partiucularly enjoyed eaither.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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 Deadshot wrote:
The rivalries aren't as clear cut as 9 vs 9.

The Lion and Russ had an epic rivalry. The Lion comes from medieval knight culture with strict hierarchy and structured conversation and honour system. The Wolf came from a culture where even as king, all were equal at the dinner table and respected one another, if you had beef you had the fight and moved on and had a pint on the loser.

But the Lion also resented Horus for being Warmaster. In Fallen Angels, he remarks that if he had been the first found, he would be Warmaster instead, insinuating that Horus' appointment was pure favouritism.


Ferrus Manus had a friendship and rivalry with Fulgrim that is said to be the strongest bond among the Primarchs, turned into the bitterest hatred.


Sanguinius and Horus was the bestest friends and ended in tragedy.

Fulgrim and Horus were also extremely close.

Corax was the only Primarch to dislike Horus entirely.

Guilliman swore death unto Lorgar after the Battle of Calth, and Lorgar was besties with Magnus, and Guilliman considered Russ one of the top 4 Primarchs he'd choose as part of his Dream Team. So maybe Magnus has an axe to grind with Robby G too.

Fulgrim in the modern age has a personal grudge against Guilliman for coming back to life and takes it personal that Papa Smurf didn't die.

Guilliman and the Alpha Legion had a fierce rivalry due to tactical differences.

Dorn and Perturabo are the obvious case.




There's just so many to discuss. The Primarchs weren't cut and dry good and bad reflections. They had complex interwoven relationships, as brothers do.


The Lion would have been a better heretic than Horus, I mean 'is' a better heretic.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
The rivalries aren't as clear cut as 9 vs 9.

The Lion and Russ had an epic rivalry. The Lion comes from medieval knight culture with strict hierarchy and structured conversation and honour system. The Wolf came from a culture where even as king, all were equal at the dinner table and respected one another, if you had beef you had the fight and moved on and had a pint on the loser.

But the Lion also resented Horus for being Warmaster. In Fallen Angels, he remarks that if he had been the first found, he would be Warmaster instead, insinuating that Horus' appointment was pure favouritism.


Ferrus Manus had a friendship and rivalry with Fulgrim that is said to be the strongest bond among the Primarchs, turned into the bitterest hatred.


Sanguinius and Horus was the bestest friends and ended in tragedy.

Fulgrim and Horus were also extremely close.

Corax was the only Primarch to dislike Horus entirely.

Guilliman swore death unto Lorgar after the Battle of Calth, and Lorgar was besties with Magnus, and Guilliman considered Russ one of the top 4 Primarchs he'd choose as part of his Dream Team. So maybe Magnus has an axe to grind with Robby G too.

Fulgrim in the modern age has a personal grudge against Guilliman for coming back to life and takes it personal that Papa Smurf didn't die.

Guilliman and the Alpha Legion had a fierce rivalry due to tactical differences.

Dorn and Perturabo are the obvious case.




There's just so many to discuss. The Primarchs weren't cut and dry good and bad reflections. They had complex interwoven relationships, as brothers do.


The Lion would have been a better heretic than Horus, I mean 'is' a better heretic.


If by "better heretic" you mean a "better choice to lead the heresy" I can't agree. Horus was so effective because he was so well liked, thus he could talk many of his brothers into doing anything for him, including, as it happens, following him into hell and damnnation. The Lion? well.. did ANY of the other Primarchs like the guy?!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




BrianDavion wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Deadshot wrote:
The rivalries aren't as clear cut as 9 vs 9.

The Lion and Russ had an epic rivalry. The Lion comes from medieval knight culture with strict hierarchy and structured conversation and honour system. The Wolf came from a culture where even as king, all were equal at the dinner table and respected one another, if you had beef you had the fight and moved on and had a pint on the loser.

But the Lion also resented Horus for being Warmaster. In Fallen Angels, he remarks that if he had been the first found, he would be Warmaster instead, insinuating that Horus' appointment was pure favouritism.


Ferrus Manus had a friendship and rivalry with Fulgrim that is said to be the strongest bond among the Primarchs, turned into the bitterest hatred.


Sanguinius and Horus was the bestest friends and ended in tragedy.

Fulgrim and Horus were also extremely close.

Corax was the only Primarch to dislike Horus entirely.

Guilliman swore death unto Lorgar after the Battle of Calth, and Lorgar was besties with Magnus, and Guilliman considered Russ one of the top 4 Primarchs he'd choose as part of his Dream Team. So maybe Magnus has an axe to grind with Robby G too.

Fulgrim in the modern age has a personal grudge against Guilliman for coming back to life and takes it personal that Papa Smurf didn't die.

Guilliman and the Alpha Legion had a fierce rivalry due to tactical differences.

Dorn and Perturabo are the obvious case.




There's just so many to discuss. The Primarchs weren't cut and dry good and bad reflections. They had complex interwoven relationships, as brothers do.


The Lion would have been a better heretic than Horus, I mean 'is' a better heretic.


If by "better heretic" you mean a "better choice to lead the heresy" I can't agree. Horus was so effective because he was so well liked, thus he could talk many of his brothers into doing anything for him, including, as it happens, following him into hell and damnnation. The Lion? well.. did ANY of the other Primarchs like the guy?!

Russ kind of did I think. In a "he's a jerk but he's MY jerk" way.

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Russ isn't a heretic, neither is the Lion, I just love to annoy the DA's fans, they are a touchy lot lol
   
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Vulkan vs. Mortarion. It gets mentioned in Black Book II and thats about it. However it comes just short of saying Vulkan hates Mortarion. I don't think there are really any other examples of the disdain between to the two legions but it makes complete sense. I never really thought about it before until I read it, and it was a total 'DUH' moment.

Would like to see it explored in some fiction.

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