Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I know the codex was out recently and may not have endured a lot of playtesting since then, but I was wondering however what were the thoughts of Ork players about the codex ?

I'm asking because in my FLGS our top player (98% winrate something like that) is starting an Ork army and pushing a few other people to do the same by showing them broken combos or spammable stuff that is very strong from his point of view.

The units I'm hearing about are spam of T8 vehicles (Battlewagon ? I don't know the names), Gretchin shield spam with unbreakable and 5++ (how ?) or just good ol' Green Tide with benefits.

I'm fearing another shift in my store's meta because of this, are my concerns legitimate ? I know we'll have to see tournament results to truly see what the codex is worth, but if you played a few games, would you care telling us how it went, and against what kind of lists ?

Thanks a lot.

Well greentide is dead. Boyz are reduced to deep strike charges and limit what to do. Grots gets auto pass for d3. T combat that cause 4 casualties per unit. Those d3 dead per unit mounts up. No worthwhile 5++ for them. Too many kff needed to cover, more grots is better. Also won't kill anything.

T8 vehicles presumably he drools over bonebreaka and/or gorkanaut. Either way screens work. Overall screens will neuter deep striking orks fairly well.

T8 spam is not only about bonebreakas, and boyz do not work only by teleporting them.

Try 3x BW with rollas filled up with 18-19 boyz plus characters with evil sunz or even goffs kultur to get more punch. I think they're more versatile than 3x bonebreaks with elites or small units of boyz inside, unless you really own 30 nobz with choppas or big choppas. The nauts however are very very bland since they're still way overcosted.

Shooty units like bustas and lootas are amazing with the kultur bonuses, but mek gunz and even flash gitz do their work as well.

Trukks got a fair price drop and now they work as well.

Deff dreads now see the tables once again, so are meganobz and nobz. Probably even koptas, At least one flyer is also decent.

Gretchins are invaluable but they won't save your entire army with their shielding ability, just a key unit per turn. And with just 10 man squads maybe not even that one. That stratagem is a nice bonus but don't rely your entire tactics around it.

A couple of the new buggies are also good, even if they're all overpriced.

Kommandos got a hit, maybe also stormboyz but none of them is completely useless anyway.

The real disappointment about the codex is the HQ section IMHO. Big meks completely useless now, warboss too limited. Deffkilla very very lackluster and special characters are too faction dependant, none of them (including Ghaz) is better than a non named HQ. Weirdboys are still very good though.

The codex made orks way better and with more variety. It's a godsend that they nerfed the green tide, which can still be played decently.

 Blackie wrote:
T8 spam is not only about bonebreakas, and boyz do not work only by teleporting them.

Like how? 180 boyz=1400 pts or so. Enemy shoots easily 60/turn. 3 turns, you are out of boys. That wasn't working in index withouyt slowplaying 2-3 turn games and with 1/6 price hike with no changes(if you don't deep strike)=dead meat.

Try 3x BW with rollas filled up with 18-19 boyz plus characters with evil sunz or even goffs kultur to get more punch. I think they're more versatile than 3x bonebreaks with elites or small units of boyz inside, unless you really own 30 nobz with choppas or big choppas. The nauts however are very very bland since they're still way overcosted.

Goff works for maybe 1 bw with ramming speed. Any more than that you are bleeding points. No 3d6 charge, no +1 to charge roll=you are not likely making charge and any unit failing charge is dead before doing anything. Also boys inside bw lose one of their big things which is +1A from having enough. Even if you were to have 20 they will lose 1 to overwatch or bw being blown apart.

Frankly if you take goff then you already admit you aren't taking competive list. Goffs is one of the worst clans orks have. Snakebites are worse off but that's about it.

As it is battlewagons themselves are not that good either. Trukks are better for elites generally. You don't generally need 20 strong mob anyway(tank bustas 15 strong and works with 12 anyway assuming you even want transport which isn't neccessarily even good idea). And rather than boys you should be looking at nobs for punch and again funnily enough both trukk is good enough or even better just deep strike them. It's not codex: tellyporta for nothing.

Shooty units like bustas and lootas are amazing with the kultur bonuses, but mek gunz and even flash gitz do their work as well.

None which are T8 or boys.

Gretchins are invaluable but they won't save your entire army with their shielding ability, just a key unit per turn. And with just 10 man squads maybe not even that one. That stratagem is a nice bonus but don't rely your entire tactics around it.

That's why you have multiple 10 strong units. You want 2 battallions anyway so basically 4-6 units of grots are pretty much in every ork list and last time I checked you can't have smaller squads than 10 grots anyway!

A couple of the new buggies are also good, even if they're all overpriced.

Ummm...If something is overpriced it cannot be good. Overpriced is pretty much definition of bad and last time I checked bad is opposite meaning to good. Being good isn't just about stats but also cost. Otherwise I could say "warhound is good" even though it's one of the worst models in the game period. It's even worse than stompa and that's saying something! But at least with stompa opponent cannot bother to NOT shoot at all unlike with warhound where it would be insulting if opponent even bothers to roll shooting dice since he doesn't need to do that so it's just wasting everybody's time.

You are clearly looking at things from casual POV rather than competive.

Ork Codex is not overpowered.

It’s entirely designed around Da Jump and Tellyporta - which means, screen or die. That SOUNDS overpowered, but there are plenty of armies designed around deep striking/charging quickly.

The Orks strongest turn is turn2, when everything drops out of reserve.

Grots with 5++ are also not overpowered; they’re 3 point models that are S/T2 - the best part about them is shooting, and it’s one S3 Pistol shot at a 3+ if you have a large amount.

Additionally, Grots pay 75 points for the 5++, driving them up to 5.5+ points per model, instead of 3 (if you’re only buffing 30 Grots). Guardsman are 4ppm, and better in every way - 5+ armor base, better gun at long and short range, and their orders are insane. [To be fair, having a 20 point Commander drives Guardsman to ~5ppm as well.]

If you can handle Guardsman, you can certainly handle Grots.

Orks Green Tide (mass boyz) was also significantly nerfed with a price hike, so that’s a dead plan.

Orks are a deep strike or lose army - they don’t do hordes, or vehicles, strong enough. The best thing about them are MekGunz; which are solid (but not overpowered) all around. Tractor Kannons will ruin the days of flying Eldar, but other than that, they’re average to solid at best.

Edit: Also, their T8 has terrible shooting - Battlewagons are entirely transports, that can carry 12models. They can be open topped and carry 20m, but then they’re down to t7. Either way, they have no shooting outside of passengers.

Guard can spam T8 tanks that have actual shooting.

So far I've played two test games, one with a more competitively minded Evil Sunz/Freebootas build and one with a casual one where I just took every buggy to test them all out and had basically no infantry to speak of.

A couple combos the orks have gained:

1) We have the most reliable deep strike charge in the game, period. Ere we Go combined with Evil Sunz culture is over a 75% chance to get in, and if you're a vehicle combine that with Rammin Speed to basically make it guaranteed. Also we have one of the few remaining sources of T1 deep strike and it's again, very reliable - da jump. You're basically taking a 64 point model just to do it, but that power is so easy to get off with a blob of boyz around him.

2) Orks got some amazing shooting options in Mek Gunz, and thanks to Freebootas Kultur those mek gunz make other options in the codex that would be a bit mediocre much better. Since you're gonna want Mek Gunz and Gretchins in your army anyway, it just makes sense to stick them in a Freeboota detachment and use them to trigger any other ork shooty units you put in that detachment - I like that strategy for Ork shooting WAY better than I like any of the onetrick wombo-combos people are coming up with for Bad Moonz with the double shot strat. Freebootas are a wonderful CP independent detachment that is perfect to pair with a CP-hungry detachment of Goffs, Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz.

3) We got ourselves a smashcaptain. Warboss on bike with the Killa Klaw (or to a lesser extent Deffkilla Wartrike with the trait that makes him S8) can be combined with the Fists of Gork psychic power to then fight once, twice, three times and shatter anything up to and including a castellan.

Overall, I think orks are incredibly well placed for the current meta. Knight Castellan screened by 80 guardsmen? Good thing 40 ork boyz on da jump with Warpath can get through that relatively reasonably, and then the smashboss can slide in and wreck it. Swarm of flying deldar vehicles? Trakktor cannons say hi, we couldn't give less of a feth about - to hits.

I'm saddened to have lost my KFF meks and my Megabosses. I'll still be indexing for those.

I'm looking forward to combining the "loads of stikkbomms" stratagem with a unit of tankbustas for 10D3 S8 AP-2 shots with rerolls vs vehicles, I think that'll be something of a surprise for the opponent.

As a rule I'm liking the units but disliking the options - the wartrike & new buggies are such stale choices, it's what it is, which for orks is just wrong - no two should be alike!

 some bloke wrote:
I'm saddened to have lost my KFF meks and my Megabosses. I'll still be indexing for those.

I'm looking forward to combining the "loads of stikkbomms" stratagem with a unit of tankbustas for 10D3 S8 AP-2 shots with rerolls vs vehicles, I think that'll be something of a surprise for the opponent.

As a rule I'm liking the units but disliking the options - the wartrike & new buggies are such stale choices, it's what it is, which for orks is just wrong - no two should be alike!

I'm of two minds about it.

On the one hand, yeah, the lack of options kind of stinks for the new buggies. On the other, they are monopose because they crammed those mofos onto a single sprue, and they're priced (slightly) less than other vehicles about the same size which are recent (Compare to the two-sprue kits for Admech Dunecrawler and Goliath Truck, which IIRC are both at 66$).

I've got no doubt the fact that they're all one sprue is the only reason we have six different buggy kits rather than, say, two with a few weapon swap options. So instead of a single buggy that shares a chassis but has a few different options, we have five that look completely different but are about the same price.

My first impression was how the book advises you the best thing to use books for is hitting people with!

I also like the little narrative boxes that go with the art.

It's definitely the first Ork book in 20 years that was crafted with a real love and enthusiasm for the greenskins. The rules design is mediocre but at least we have character.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's definitely the first Ork book in 20 years that was crafted with a real love and enthusiasm for the greenskins. The rules design is mediocre but at least we have character.

Probably, but the lack of customization and enforcement of "no-model-no-rules" kills some of that feeling.
That might have more to do with corporate idiocy than the writers though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's definitely the first Ork book in 20 years that was crafted with a real love and enthusiasm for the greenskins. The rules design is mediocre but at least we have character.

Probably, but the lack of customization and enforcement of "no-model-no-rules" kills some of that feeling.
That might have more to do with corporate idiocy than the writers though.

I get the feeling with how they weaseled things like Nob Bikers into the codex that this book was a tug-of-war between an overbearing legal department and a rules team just desperately trying to maneuver around them.

Lots of things in the edition seem to be that way as well. I half suspect that they're in the habit of showing the legal department converted models occasionally and trying to pass them off as options that come in the kit.

It looks very good to me - and everything I saw over the weekend suggests those claiming the codex would be weak are totally wrong.

I agree that the HQs lacking accessible models is a problem. Not having a warboss in mega armour because there is no model feels kind of stupid. Yes you can index option this or that but that's only delaying the inevitable unless they bring out more models.

The Stompa is bad, rukkatruck and snazzwagon are bad (or at least seem so to me). Most other things through vary from okay to exceptional.

Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

OP, Blizzard please nerf.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
OP, Blizzard please nerf.

Whoa, whoa I wasn't talking about Shaman or Warlocks now. =)

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's definitely the first Ork book in 20 years that was crafted with a real love and enthusiasm for the greenskins. The rules design is mediocre but at least we have character.

Probably, but the lack of customization and enforcement of "no-model-no-rules" kills some of that feeling.
That might have more to do with corporate idiocy than the writers though.

I get the feeling with how they weaseled things like Nob Bikers into the codex that this book was a tug-of-war between an overbearing legal department and a rules team just desperately trying to maneuver around them.

Lots of things in the edition seem to be that way as well. I half suspect that they're in the habit of showing the legal department converted models occasionally and trying to pass them off as options that come in the kit.

I would agree. I expect the kulturs, relics and strategems are the truest representation of the rules team's attitude towards Orks, as they are the parts least likely to suffer meddling by marketing and legal departments. And those are the strongest and most flavorful pages in the book.

They even snuck in two units without models via strategems.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

It might be overkill but I suspect "competitive Orks" is going to have 6 Traktors, 12 Smashas.
Actually not totally sure on the Traktors. Auto hit is nice - but Smashas are better for their points except when facing a -2 or more to hit. Or at least before you start factoring in crash and burn effects.
Also I hate hemlocks as much as the next right thinking person.

I dont get how so many people are complaining about the 1 point increase of the boyz. They gained so much from the kulturs, they can be transformed into stromger units by use of cp, they even gained anti tank ability with tankbusta bombs and most importantly:

The rules are FUN. And thats what every orky list should be all about. Losing tons of models while still laughing our buttocks off about it. With my Orks I honestly do not care about winning or losing too much. The codex aint bad. It is very workable.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
OP, Blizzard please nerf.

Whoa, whoa I wasn't talking about Shaman or Warlocks now. =)

No but seriously an all buggy list is really strong. They're super fast and hit like a truck. (pun semi-intended)

The book is great. People are going to get tons of mileage on just about any build they desire.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's definitely the first Ork book in 20 years that was crafted with a real love and enthusiasm for the greenskins. The rules design is mediocre but at least we have character.

Probably, but the lack of customization and enforcement of "no-model-no-rules" kills some of that feeling.
That might have more to do with corporate idiocy than the writers though.

I get the feeling with how they weaseled things like Nob Bikers into the codex that this book was a tug-of-war between an overbearing legal department and a rules team just desperately trying to maneuver around them.

Lots of things in the edition seem to be that way as well. I half suspect that they're in the habit of showing the legal department converted models occasionally and trying to pass them off as options that come in the kit.

I would agree. I expect the kulturs, relics and strategems are the truest representation of the rules team's attitude towards Orks, as they are the parts least likely to suffer meddling by marketing and legal departments. And those are the strongest and most flavorful pages in the book.

They even snuck in two units without models via strategems.

I think this is a sensible analysis. I find the presence of Nob Bikers fascinating. After all, that is an option available from FW.
...but that is not a guarantee, since the Kommando Boss Nob lost an option that is available there (and arguably the kommandos should have access to Big Shootas since with forgeworld one builds them from boys).

I also agree this seems a great book and far from being monobuild. I think the only true losers are Burnas.

Orks are most certainly not a "deepstrike or die" army, unless you completely lack imagination imo. They are a combined-arms army, amazingly. A mix of tools to handle different opponents well. I prefer jumping/teleporting a mix of combat and shooting units to handle different threats and most importantly, control the board and objectives. Grots are cheap enough to screen a dedicated long-range support force - traktor kannons and lootas are perhaps the best for this. There is no auto-win or even mostly-win list in the new codex, which I prefer, but it is probable that they will mix up the local meta due to their flexibility and unpredictability.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
OP, Blizzard please nerf.

Whoa, whoa I wasn't talking about Shaman or Warlocks now. =)

No but seriously an all buggy list is really strong. They're super fast and hit like a truck. (pun semi-intended)

I agree that an all buggy list will be pretty strong, but I think they are a tiny bit over-costed.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Except that it does less damage on average versus unless the target is both flying, and at least -1 to hit, than the alternative (the Smasha gun).

Even against units that do fly but dont have -1 to hit (like Raiders) the smasha does more because those models tend to hav eless toughness.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Except that it does less damage on average versus unless the target is both flying, and at least -1 to hit, than the alternative (the Smasha gun).

Even against units that do fly but dont have -1 to hit (like Raiders) the smasha does more because those models tend to hav eless toughness.

That's assuming the Grot gunner hits. Yes, it's initially a 4+ to hit, but 100% to hit does more damage that a 50% miss; especially if it's a flying vehicle. Granted, the Smasha is 16 points versus the 30 for the Traktor Kannon. So in larger squad situations you might make out in the end with Smasha's.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
it is probable that they will mix up the local meta due to their flexibility and unpredictability.

This is always what I loved about playing my Orks. I'd accept a challenge from "that tau guy" or (back when they were powerful) "The grey knights player", to the saddened shaking of heads from onlookers, only to have an exceptionally close game because it's almost impossible to tailor against "Orks". You can tailor against "Green tide", "Dread Bash", "Battlewagon Brigade", Trukk Rush" etc, but you can't tailor against all of them at once. Orks can always surprise their opponent, but never so much that they ruin the game. I think that, unless you're a predictable gamer, or are just starting out, people will never quite be certain of what you're bringing. I've usually found that this detachment from the meta is what you have to use to get the edge as orks.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Imo, one of the most underwhelmed/unsung units in the codex will be the Traktor Kannon Mek Gun.

First off NOTHING other then flamer-type weapons should be auto hit AND especially not an Ork (of all races) shooting something up to 48" away.

Heavy 1, S8, AP-2, D6 Dmg (effectively Melta against Flying Vehicles and auto crash and burn if the Flyer is destroyed) AUTOHITTING! for 45 points!

Now, don't get me wrong, it's a very Orky weapon but autohit????? that is just wrong. I could see giving it a bonus to hit flyers, even a +2 to hit; but auto hit anything within 48"...what about when targeting something other then a flyer? Shouldn't intervening models interfere with shooting this weapon? Nope...

Except that it does less damage on average versus unless the target is both flying, and at least -1 to hit, than the alternative (the Smasha gun).

Even against units that do fly but dont have -1 to hit (like Raiders) the smasha does more because those models tend to hav eless toughness.

That's assuming the Grot gunner hits. Yes, it's initially a 4+ to hit, but 100% to hit does more damage that a 50% miss; especially if it's a flying vehicle. Granted, the Smasha is 16 points versus the 30 for the Traktor Kannon. So in larger squad situations you might make out in the end with Smasha's.

No, it's not assuming the gunner hits.

Example: Vs a DE Raider

Smasha: 2 shots average, *.5 hits, *.8333 wounds (odds of rolling 5 or better on 2d6) *.666 unsaved, *3.5 average damage on 1d6 = 1.94, .054 damage per point.

Trakktor, 1 shot, 1 hit, .666 wounds, .666 unsaved, 4.5 average damage on 2d6 pick highest = 1.99, .044 damage per point.

And against this unit the extra point of AP that the smasha has doesn't even matter.

The trakktor is only more effective for the points when it bypasses at least one -1 to hit. You might include a couple for the edge case where you're facing aliatoc flyerspam or something, but the Trakktor is in no way such a crazygonuts thing to put into the game that it "shouldn't exist." its lower damage output overall makes it a niche unit, and TBH it's a niche that should exist, because the competitive meta for the whole of the existence of 8th has highlighted that spamming - to hit is too strong and doesn't have enough counters in the game.

I fear its the Smasha which will get a nerf. As you say its better versus anything but Hemlocks. Its really good versus things like Marine flyers who have good armour saves but no invuls. Its better against Knights and comparable ground based units. Its even efficient (44% or so) just shooting naked tactical marines (but then what isn't).

If you have a spare £500 and fancy some very upset opponents you should take 18 in a sea of grots acting as chaff.

I never said it shouldn't exist, in fact I think it's very Orky, just bewildered at the fact that it auto hits.


And as far as I can tell the grots really don't matter other then as space wasters.
* You treat each gun like a single model.
* The grots have to remain within an inch of the gun.
* They cannot shoot / charge individually.
They just take up space.