Switch Theme:

Cultists are 5 points per model.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in sg
Dakka Veteran




What? How did this happen? Chaos Cultists are 5 points per model, but Guardsmen are still 4. There is no other change to either unit barring some wargear cost.

Guardsmen have better armor saves and the only thing going for the Cultists is the Alpha Legion shenanigan. Guardsmen have more weapon choice, but Cultists can get marks.

Veterans are only 5 points per model.

Can anyone tell me why this is the case? Did the newest Chapter Approve just do that to nerf Alpha Legion or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 07:42:48


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





It's pretty mind boggling honestly. I could understand it if both models went up in price but there's no way in hell anyone can justify Cultists being more expensive than Guardsmen.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's pretty mind boggling honestly. I could understand it if both models went up in price but there's no way in hell anyone can justify Cultists being more expensive than Guardsmen.


Fully agree

   
Made in us
Aspirant Tech-Adept






It gives gw an excuse to sell us the fix in CA2019....

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura. 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.

Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

Say Peregrine, what army do you play?
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

The bigger travesty is Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines are still 13 pts per model.

5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 kastelen wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

Say Peregrine, what army do you play?

Does it matter? He is right, the problem is though that to make the change good, the csm units, as in actual csm, would have to be worth taking, but it is not the case. Nerfing dark reapers a bit to make fire dragons a more inviting option is a good thing to do. Nerfing cultists, when your sure as hell not going to run csm anyway, only means your army got a 1pts hike on most of its models.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Simple cultists get
1. Larger unit size- this is a massive boon for any unit that is primarily made to soak up damage
2. Veterans of the long war
3. Guard “send in the next wave” got effectively removed from the game. Cultists still have theirs
4. -1 to hit
5. Go slaneesh and shoot twice with veterans of the long war
6. Because of the increased unit size every command point/ buff given to them is more efficient
7. Still have easy access to fearless

There is a reason 200+ cultist lists were a thing but not 200+ guard lists. If guard had access to all of the above you would see more then 32 in every list

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 15:22:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Unapologetic guard player here. Not sure why guardsmen are still 4 points when they very clearly are 5 points, and it would fit perfectly in with the paradigm of conscript/guardsman/veteran being 4/5/6 ppm respectively. In fact, they doubled down by making veterans 5 points which is even more mind-boggling.

I don't buy the whole "well guardsmen are the backbone of the faction" argument either because points costs are supposed to reflect battlefield performance and nothing else. If that were the case, bog standard CSM and tac marines should go way down in points because they are the "backbone" of their respective factions and we didn't get that.

I like my faction, and I like that we are finally strong this edition but I call unfairness as I see it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 09:25:11


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator




The Void

It's because we've seen a load of tournament lists that were basically just fearless cultist hordes. That's not how they are supposed to play. The increase in cost nerfs those lists. But pretty much everything else got cheaper. If you were using cultists in a regular list, then the increase to their cost has probably been compensated for by savings in other areas.

As for guard, that's a whole different issue. Increasing the cost of the loyal 32 doesn't really change the meta that much, because things in other areas got cheaper too. In other words, this was an effective way to end cultist spam, but 5pt guardsmen is not an effective way to end the loyal 32.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 10:08:26


Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

It's obvious why it happened.

A stack of 40 cultists in rapid fire range can shoot 160 times, 3+, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound, for 2cps.

Expected damage of that salvo vs a Knight is 13.8 damage.

When it starts to thin out, spend another 2cps and the unit back for free on any boardedge.

Why the heck should that be 160pts?

It was a choice GW had: either remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists (good choice) or hike their points up (okish choice). They had to do one or the other, and because this is CA, which deals almost exclusively in points changes not rules, we got the second option. It was totally needed.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Eldarain wrote:
Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.

Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.


Not all cultists have access to this or size 40 squads. Even R&H cultists got the pricehike, and we even got random ld sooooooooooooooooo, you were saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 grouchoben wrote:
It's obvious why it happened.

A stack of 40 cultists in rapid fire range can shoot 160 times, 3+, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound, for 2cps.

Expected damage of that salvo vs a Knight is 13.8 damage.

When it starts to thin out, spend another 2cps and the unit back for free on any boardedge.

Why the heck should that be 160pts?

It was a choice GW had: either remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists (good choice) or hike their points up (okish choice). They had to do one or the other, and because this is CA, which deals almost exclusively in points changes not rules, we got the second option. It was totally needed.


Frankly they could've just removed the heretic astartes keyword, and maybee make tide of traitors once per squad (probably only when you lower the squad size to 30, or make it a specific stratagem for AL)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 10:08:03


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 kastelen wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.

Say Peregrine, what army do you play?


Krieg?

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.

Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Stux wrote:
Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.

Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.


The iron warriors and AL would disagree with you. Of course also it would help if the heretic ASTARTES part of the army would not suck so hard.
Heck i fathom that cultists could literally be 6ppm and would still be taken before CSM of any kind since they just can't generate enough CP for a csm army to function.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.

But 5 point maybe works as a quick-fix, simply because in the context of the army from a gameplay perspective, they ARE better than guardsmen (even if it doesn't make sense from a fluff-perspective).

That said, I think they ultimately need a full re-write at some point, especially if GW is bringing in Traitor Guardsmen from the Blackstone Fortress as a real thing in 40K. Cultists should probably end up being super-cheap, but below "trained" (traitor) guardsmen, probably just WS/BS 5+, no marks, no legion traits, 6+ armour, no strats except "cultist-specific" strats like Tide of Traitors, i.e. essentially a unit similar to how they handled Grots in the new Ork book.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Sunny Side Up wrote:
The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.

But 5 point maybe works as a quick-fix, simply because in the context of the army from a gameplay perspective, they ARE better than guardsmen (even if it doesn't make sense from a fluff-perspective).

That said, I think they ultimately need a full re-write at some point, especially if GW is bringing in Traitor Guardsmen from the Blackstone Fortress as a real thing in 40K. Cultists should probably end up being super-cheap, but below "trained" (traitor) guardsmen, probably just WS/BS 5+, no marks, no legion traits, 6+ armour, no strats except "cultist-specific" strats like Tide of Traitors, i.e. essentially a unit similar to how they handled Grots in the new Ork book.


- First off: Are they really better? Yes with the stratagems , no in every other department profile wise, no in orders department and yes on traits. Then again we had Guilliman and Abbadon cock up balancing thanks to auras ever since 8th, making balancing a nightmare.

-Secondly: I honestly don't belive they are going to put Traitor guardsmen into the CSM codex, It's more likely that we will see codexified R&H army (lost and the damned) return in a codex form, just as GSC did. the demand would be there.

-Thirdly: We have no idea about the quality of these "Cultists". By fluff they can range from highly trained specialized individuals (Agents of the AL) to Trained mass fodder (IW) to a religious untrained mob (WB) and everything in between.Even the picture in the codex on the dark apostle of seventh show them as fanatic traitor IG with Ig equipment.

-Fourth: That suggestion to treat them like Grots and only let specific interactions happen seems like the best way to go forward really for CSM cultists,alternatively let only specific legions better interact with cultists (WB,AL, IW) come to mind.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

And yet they missed the main point: Cultists shouldn't have <Heretic Astartes>. That alone would fix a big reason they are so good (Marks are still an issue due to their interaction with Stratagems, but I'm loathed to suggest Cultists shouldn't be marked since in the fluff they can be, it's just the rules interaction works badly). GW seems to think it's all points and they can hotfix it when a lot of the underlying problems are on the datasheets, which they are adamant to not touch in 99% of cases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 12:30:52


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Sunny Side Up wrote:
The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.

This. A hundred times this.

Making cultists 5pts changed basically nothing. Now instead of having a 160pts unit that can take 15 wounds off a Knight, we have a 200pts unit that can still take 15 wounds off a Knight... And is Fearless.

Also, 8th edition allows for too much stacking. Just like Orders, Stratagems should be limited to one per squad each turn. Using Tides of Traitor then stacking VoTL and Endless Cacophony in a single turn is stupid.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






The Orks are currently welcoming all Chaos players to join our side of the battlefield is consolidation for our infintry going up 1pt and being told it's fine while everyone else stayed the same or went down.

Honestly though, they could have easily made guard 5pts but also reduced special guard weapons. That way a guard player is paying exsactly the same as before for their army but a soup player is paying 30pts more.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Valkyrie wrote:
Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?


Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Valkyrie wrote:
Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?


Honestly. I get why it matters, I don't get why it seems to matter so much to some people.

Helbrute and Defiler points changes would seem to be more significant.

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Trickstick wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?


Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.


Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 lolman1c wrote:
The Orks are currently welcoming all Chaos players to join our side of the battlefield is consolidation for our infintry going up 1pt and being told it's fine while everyone else stayed the same or went down.

Honestly though, they could have easily made guard 5pts but also reduced special guard weapons. That way a guard player is paying exsactly the same as before for their army but a soup player is paying 30pts more.


I honestly don't think the majority of people complained about 6 ppm boyz, atleast for me they always fit in right well at their price tag. More annoying were actively slowplaying pricks, and surprise, that can be done by any "Horde" faction.

Also Codex Terlyporta (orkz) is not good designed, especially when the whole strategy of it revolves around one stratagem whilest the rest of the codex can figuratively speaking take a hike of the closest steep mountain side since that stratagem again hinders balance therefore anything needs to be regarded in conjunction to that stratagem. The same happens to CSM with cacophony, leading to a hike on cultists and the bypassing of our terminators compared to loyalists.

BTW i am also of the opinion that a IG guardsmen should not have gone up to 5 ppm, mostly because the average IG dude is not a problem when you actually play a monomatch, the hellhound variant from FW i belive was more of a issue, same with certain traits (then again traits making or breaking whole armies are now so common that it get's really annoying, most importantly when traits flat out offer a removal of a sixth of incoming damage without a cost adjustment). What really is a problem is the seemless integration in soup, mostly in combination of knights or smashcaptains, so basically outsourcing CP generation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Valkyrie wrote:
 Trickstick wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?


Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.


Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?


I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 12:56:46


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Not Online!!! wrote:


I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.


It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex. It's just the troop choice some tournament players prefer. It is one of 4 troop choices (2 for most legions), and if you take the codex "literally"(but with FaQs) it is one of 8.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 13:06:29


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:


I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.


It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex. It's just the troop choice some tournament players prefer. It is one of 4 troop choices (2 for most legions), and if you take the codex "literally" it is one of 8.


Well, no, disagree politely but insistently:
CSM have the same problem as tacticals, they cannot generate enough cp for the army, ergo when one applies the logic that CP generation is the main job of any Troop choice they do it so badly that they don't even need to be considered. (Now even more since we still are paying 13ppm compared to loyalists, for whatever reason)

Khorne berzerkers and noise marines: Again are even more expensive, demand delivery or cover and suffer from the same fate. Aswell as soon will not be able anymore to be taken as troops for a regular CSM army.

"Minor Daemons" are not even capable of filling detachments so again are not a "cp " generating choice.

So what is left? Cultists. They can generate decently enough CP, ergo they are worth their slot's in a detachment.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Valkyrie wrote:
Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?


Well, yes. That is kind of the point of percentages. You take 200 points of one and 200 points of the other, the 20% increase is going to hurt. Sure, it's only "1 point", but when it is repeated sixty times it adds up.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex.


I love how "literally" can also mean "figuratively" now. The evolution of language is fun!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 13:18:10


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: