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2018/12/10 07:42:14
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Dakka Veteran
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What? How did this happen? Chaos Cultists are 5 points per model, but Guardsmen are still 4. There is no other change to either unit barring some wargear cost.
Guardsmen have better armor saves and the only thing going for the Cultists is the Alpha Legion shenanigan. Guardsmen have more weapon choice, but Cultists can get marks.
Veterans are only 5 points per model.
Can anyone tell me why this is the case? Did the newest Chapter Approve just do that to nerf Alpha Legion or something?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 07:42:48
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2018/12/10 07:44:00
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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It's pretty mind boggling honestly. I could understand it if both models went up in price but there's no way in hell anyone can justify Cultists being more expensive than Guardsmen.
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2018/12/10 07:47:07
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Arachnofiend wrote:It's pretty mind boggling honestly. I could understand it if both models went up in price but there's no way in hell anyone can justify Cultists being more expensive than Guardsmen.
Fully agree
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2018/12/10 07:56:19
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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It gives gw an excuse to sell us the fix in CA2019....
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"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura. |
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2018/12/10 08:00:47
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.
Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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2018/12/10 08:07:09
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Douglas Bader
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IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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2018/12/10 08:16:22
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Stalwart Tribune
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Peregrine wrote:IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.
Say Peregrine, what army do you play?
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2018/12/10 08:21:27
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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The bigger travesty is Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines are still 13 pts per model.
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5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts |
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2018/12/10 08:26:07
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Fixture of Dakka
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kastelen wrote: Peregrine wrote:IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.
Say Peregrine, what army do you play?
Does it matter? He is right, the problem is though that to make the change good, the csm units, as in actual csm, would have to be worth taking, but it is not the case. Nerfing dark reapers a bit to make fire dragons a more inviting option is a good thing to do. Nerfing cultists, when your sure as hell not going to run csm anyway, only means your army got a 1pts hike on most of its models.
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If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. |
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2018/12/10 08:31:42
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Simple cultists get
1. Larger unit size- this is a massive boon for any unit that is primarily made to soak up damage
2. Veterans of the long war
3. Guard “send in the next wave” got effectively removed from the game. Cultists still have theirs
4. -1 to hit
5. Go slaneesh and shoot twice with veterans of the long war
6. Because of the increased unit size every command point/ buff given to them is more efficient
7. Still have easy access to fearless
There is a reason 200+ cultist lists were a thing but not 200+ guard lists. If guard had access to all of the above you would see more then 32 in every list
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 15:22:51
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2018/12/10 09:22:50
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Unapologetic guard player here. Not sure why guardsmen are still 4 points when they very clearly are 5 points, and it would fit perfectly in with the paradigm of conscript/guardsman/veteran being 4/5/6 ppm respectively. In fact, they doubled down by making veterans 5 points which is even more mind-boggling.
I don't buy the whole "well guardsmen are the backbone of the faction" argument either because points costs are supposed to reflect battlefield performance and nothing else. If that were the case, bog standard CSM and tac marines should go way down in points because they are the "backbone" of their respective factions and we didn't get that.
I like my faction, and I like that we are finally strong this edition but I call unfairness as I see it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 09:25:11
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2018/12/10 09:57:12
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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It's because we've seen a load of tournament lists that were basically just fearless cultist hordes. That's not how they are supposed to play. The increase in cost nerfs those lists. But pretty much everything else got cheaper. If you were using cultists in a regular list, then the increase to their cost has probably been compensated for by savings in other areas.
As for guard, that's a whole different issue. Increasing the cost of the loyal 32 doesn't really change the meta that much, because things in other areas got cheaper too. In other words, this was an effective way to end cultist spam, but 5pt guardsmen is not an effective way to end the loyal 32.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 10:08:26
Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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2018/12/10 10:01:44
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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It's obvious why it happened.
A stack of 40 cultists in rapid fire range can shoot 160 times, 3+, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound, for 2cps.
Expected damage of that salvo vs a Knight is 13.8 damage.
When it starts to thin out, spend another 2cps and the unit back for free on any boardedge.
Why the heck should that be 160pts?
It was a choice GW had: either remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists (good choice) or hike their points up (okish choice). They had to do one or the other, and because this is CA, which deals almost exclusively in points changes not rules, we got the second option. It was totally needed.
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2018/12/10 10:04:29
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Eldarain wrote:Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.
Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.
Not all cultists have access to this or size 40 squads. Even R&H cultists got the pricehike, and we even got random ld sooooooooooooooooo, you were saying. Automatically Appended Next Post: grouchoben wrote:It's obvious why it happened.
A stack of 40 cultists in rapid fire range can shoot 160 times, 3+, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound, for 2cps.
Expected damage of that salvo vs a Knight is 13.8 damage.
When it starts to thin out, spend another 2cps and the unit back for free on any boardedge.
Why the heck should that be 160pts?
It was a choice GW had: either remove the heretic astartes keyword from cultists (good choice) or hike their points up (okish choice). They had to do one or the other, and because this is CA, which deals almost exclusively in points changes not rules, we got the second option. It was totally needed.
Frankly they could've just removed the heretic astartes keyword, and maybee make tide of traitors once per squad (probably only when you lower the squad size to 30, or make it a specific stratagem for AL)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 10:08:03
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/10 10:40:59
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Manchester, UK
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kastelen wrote: Peregrine wrote:IMO it's a great nerf. Cultists are supposed to be a minor support element for the marines that are the core of the CSM faction, they should be on the weak side to discourage cultist spam armies. Infantry squads are the core of the IG faction, so they should be one of the stronger units in the codex.
Say Peregrine, what army do you play?
Krieg?
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2018/12/10 10:42:46
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.
Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.
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2018/12/10 10:44:38
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Stux wrote:Im not totally convinced it's a great reason, but to me I would think it's because Cultists are not meant to be the focus of a Heretic Astartes army, they are an added extra you can throw in. Chaff is not something Chaos Marines are supposed to get easily, therefore they pay a premium to have them in their codex.
Of course, the availability of soup makes this not a terribly good reason.
The iron warriors and AL would disagree with you. Of course also it would help if the heretic ASTARTES part of the army would not suck so hard.
Heck i fathom that cultists could literally be 6ppm and would still be taken before CSM of any kind since they just can't generate enough CP for a csm army to function.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/10 11:06:37
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.
But 5 point maybe works as a quick-fix, simply because in the context of the army from a gameplay perspective, they ARE better than guardsmen (even if it doesn't make sense from a fluff-perspective).
That said, I think they ultimately need a full re-write at some point, especially if GW is bringing in Traitor Guardsmen from the Blackstone Fortress as a real thing in 40K. Cultists should probably end up being super-cheap, but below "trained" (traitor) guardsmen, probably just WS/BS 5+, no marks, no legion traits, 6+ armour, no strats except "cultist-specific" strats like Tide of Traitors, i.e. essentially a unit similar to how they handled Grots in the new Ork book.
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2018/12/10 11:16:28
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Sunny Side Up wrote:The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.
But 5 point maybe works as a quick-fix, simply because in the context of the army from a gameplay perspective, they ARE better than guardsmen (even if it doesn't make sense from a fluff-perspective).
That said, I think they ultimately need a full re-write at some point, especially if GW is bringing in Traitor Guardsmen from the Blackstone Fortress as a real thing in 40K. Cultists should probably end up being super-cheap, but below "trained" (traitor) guardsmen, probably just WS/ BS 5+, no marks, no legion traits, 6+ armour, no strats except "cultist-specific" strats like Tide of Traitors, i.e. essentially a unit similar to how they handled Grots in the new Ork book.
- First off: Are they really better? Yes with the stratagems , no in every other department profile wise, no in orders department and yes on traits. Then again we had Guilliman and Abbadon cock up balancing thanks to auras ever since 8th, making balancing a nightmare.
-Secondly: I honestly don't belive they are going to put Traitor guardsmen into the CSM codex, It's more likely that we will see codexified R&H army (lost and the damned) return in a codex form, just as GSC did. the demand would be there.
-Thirdly: We have no idea about the quality of these "Cultists". By fluff they can range from highly trained specialized individuals (Agents of the AL) to Trained mass fodder ( IW) to a religious untrained mob ( WB) and everything in between.Even the picture in the codex on the dark apostle of seventh show them as fanatic traitor IG with Ig equipment.
-Fourth: That suggestion to treat them like Grots and only let specific interactions happen seems like the best way to go forward really for CSM cultists,alternatively let only specific legions better interact with cultists ( WB, AL, IW) come to mind.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/10 12:29:57
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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And yet they missed the main point: Cultists shouldn't have <Heretic Astartes>. That alone would fix a big reason they are so good (Marks are still an issue due to their interaction with Stratagems, but I'm loathed to suggest Cultists shouldn't be marked since in the fluff they can be, it's just the rules interaction works badly). GW seems to think it's all points and they can hotfix it when a lot of the underlying problems are on the datasheets, which they are adamant to not touch in 99% of cases.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 12:30:52
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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2018/12/10 12:30:48
Subject: Re:Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver
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Sunny Side Up wrote:The more elegant solution IMO would've been to strip Cultists of the Hereticus Astartes and Legion keywords (because they are not) and simply given them a rule that they don't break battle-forged.
This. A hundred times this.
Making cultists 5pts changed basically nothing. Now instead of having a 160pts unit that can take 15 wounds off a Knight, we have a 200pts unit that can still take 15 wounds off a Knight... And is Fearless.
Also, 8th edition allows for too much stacking. Just like Orders, Stratagems should be limited to one per squad each turn. Using Tides of Traitor then stacking VoTL and Endless Cacophony in a single turn is stupid.
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Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons |
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2018/12/10 12:36:28
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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The Orks are currently welcoming all Chaos players to join our side of the battlefield is consolidation for our infintry going up 1pt and being told it's fine while everyone else stayed the same or went down.
Honestly though, they could have easily made guard 5pts but also reduced special guard weapons. That way a guard player is paying exsactly the same as before for their army but a soup player is paying 30pts more.
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2018/12/10 12:50:44
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Is a 1pt increase really that much of a big deal?
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2018/12/10 12:52:55
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Manchester, UK
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Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.
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2018/12/10 12:53:49
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Honestly. I get why it matters, I don't get why it seems to matter so much to some people.
Helbrute and Defiler points changes would seem to be more significant.
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2018/12/10 12:54:34
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Lord of the Fleet
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Trickstick wrote:
Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.
Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?
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2018/12/10 12:55:29
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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lolman1c wrote:The Orks are currently welcoming all Chaos players to join our side of the battlefield is consolidation for our infintry going up 1pt and being told it's fine while everyone else stayed the same or went down.
Honestly though, they could have easily made guard 5pts but also reduced special guard weapons. That way a guard player is paying exsactly the same as before for their army but a soup player is paying 30pts more.
I honestly don't think the majority of people complained about 6 ppm boyz, atleast for me they always fit in right well at their price tag. More annoying were actively slowplaying pricks, and surprise, that can be done by any "Horde" faction.
Also Codex Terlyporta (orkz) is not good designed, especially when the whole strategy of it revolves around one stratagem whilest the rest of the codex can figuratively speaking take a hike of the closest steep mountain side since that stratagem again hinders balance therefore anything needs to be regarded in conjunction to that stratagem. The same happens to CSM with cacophony, leading to a hike on cultists and the bypassing of our terminators compared to loyalists.
BTW i am also of the opinion that a IG guardsmen should not have gone up to 5 ppm, mostly because the average IG dude is not a problem when you actually play a monomatch, the hellhound variant from FW i belive was more of a issue, same with certain traits (then again traits making or breaking whole armies are now so common that it get's really annoying, most importantly when traits flat out offer a removal of a sixth of incoming damage without a cost adjustment). What really is a problem is the seemless integration in soup, mostly in combination of knights or smashcaptains, so basically outsourcing CP generation. Automatically Appended Next Post: Valkyrie wrote: Trickstick wrote:
Well it is 20% increase, so it is relatively large. Not game breaking but it does have an effect.
Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?
I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 12:56:46
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/10 13:04:43
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.
It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex. It's just the troop choice some tournament players prefer. It is one of 4 troop choices (2 for most legions), and if you take the codex "literally"(but with FaQs) it is one of 8.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/10 13:06:29
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2018/12/10 13:11:32
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Sgt. Cortez wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean when it literally is the "only" troop choice in a codex that is chronically starved off CP, because the good stratagems atleast cost 2+ it makes quite a dent into that budget.
It is not "literally" the only troop choice in the codex. It's just the troop choice some tournament players prefer. It is one of 4 troop choices (2 for most legions), and if you take the codex "literally" it is one of 8.
Well, no, disagree politely but insistently:
CSM have the same problem as tacticals, they cannot generate enough cp for the army, ergo when one applies the logic that CP generation is the main job of any Troop choice they do it so badly that they don't even need to be considered. (Now even more since we still are paying 13ppm compared to loyalists, for whatever reason)
Khorne berzerkers and noise marines: Again are even more expensive, demand delivery or cover and suffer from the same fate. Aswell as soon will not be able anymore to be taken as troops for a regular CSM army.
"Minor Daemons" are not even capable of filling detachments so again are not a " cp " generating choice.
So what is left? Cultists. They can generate decently enough CP, ergo they are worth their slot's in a detachment.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2018/12/10 13:17:37
Subject: Cultists are 5 points per model.
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
Manchester, UK
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Valkyrie wrote:Yes it's 20% but it's still only 1pt. I would agree that a 20% increase on a 100pt model is a lot, yes, but on a 4pt model?
Well, yes. That is kind of the point of percentages. You take 200 points of one and 200 points of the other, the 20% increase is going to hurt. Sure, it's only "1 point", but when it is repeated sixty times it adds up.
I love how "literally" can also mean "figuratively" now. The evolution of language is fun!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 13:18:10
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