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Before I even consider this, I want to make sure that running non-Primaris Deathwatch is even worthwhile. Using regular marines, do they end up suffering from a lot of the same MEQ issues? Are they only viable when run as Primaris?

Thanks in advance!

SG

DW are probably the ONLY Marine army is which running non-Primaris is a good idea.
Specifically StormVets (stormbolter/stormshield veterans). This is mainly because Stormbolter with SIA are awesome and SS are cheap.

They are expensive (which is a trait shared by all Marines) but they actually do not suffer from lack of offense or durability for the reasons above.

But Intercessors are good too, so don't overlook them unless you just really hate Primaris.

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I'd go as far to say that you should be running DW without Primaris right now. Their Vet teams are the best troops choice in power armour in the game. 1 Vanguard Vet, 1 Terminator, 5 vets with storm bolters and storm shields, and then 3 models to your taste, is what I'd recommend in each team. Legit, and capable of bullying a lot of units in the game.

But, Vanguard Vets can move twice as far in each turn... couldn’t that cause some unit cohesion issues?

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
But, Vanguard Vets can move twice as far in each turn... couldn’t that cause some unit cohesion issues?

SG

Well you don't HAVE to move him his full move distance. I'm kind of curious why you'd include a Vangaurd vet though. Maybe to assault flyers?

 Horst wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:
But, Vanguard Vets can move twice as far in each turn... couldn’t that cause some unit cohesion issues?

SG

Well you don't HAVE to move him his full move distance. I'm kind of curious why you'd include a Vangaurd vet though. Maybe to assault flyers?

IIRC, if you have a vanguard vet in a squad, it allows the entire unit to fall back and shoot as if they have fly. Each of the specialist vets (the jump pack one, the terminator, the biker) give a special benefit to the entire unit so long as it has at least one model from the ones I've mentioned. The terminator benefit should be immunity to morale, while the biker one allows you to fall back and still charge.

Yup, the fall back and shoot ability is why you put a vanguard vet in a kill team.

 ServiceGames wrote:
But, Vanguard Vets can move twice as far in each turn... couldn’t that cause some unit cohesion issues?

SG

What you do is you take a full squad of Veterans, 5 Footsloggers, Two Vanguard Vets and 3 Bikes. Then you Combat Squad them. You now have a 5 model unit with effective T5 and can move 12" per turn. The Bikes benefit from the beta bolter rule so always get to double tap their twin boltguns (with SIA no less) while the Vanguard Vets are rocking 3++ (remember, T5 still) and Thunder Hammers. Plus it can Fall Back and still shoot AND charge.

Don't have the keywords to have the bikers benefit that way but still a good unit.

 Eldarain wrote:
Don't have the keywords to have the bikers benefit that way but still a good unit.

What does that mean exactly? And how would I go about combat squad-ing that unit?

Thanks

SG

You need the Bikers keyword to be affected by the beta bolter rule. A vet squad doesn't get the Biker, Terminator keywords when those models are added.

A 10 man squad of vets can be split into 2 5 man squads before deployment.

 Eldarain wrote:
You need the Bikers keyword to be affected by the beta bolter rule. A vet squad doesn't get the Biker, Terminator keywords when those models are added.

A 10 man squad of vets can be split into 2 5 man squads before deployment.

First time I’ve tried to put together a DW list. I have the models, but they were all bought during 7th edition and then put aside (unfortunately). I understand that combat squads mean you can split it into two five man squads, but from a list of 5 Vets, 2 Vanguard Vets, and 3 Bikers how would you split them.

Also, if I understand you correctly, adding Vanguard Vets and Bikers don’t give any of the abilities to the rest of the Vets. If that’s the case, does it make sense to build a squad like that?

Thanks

SG

EDIT: Should I use shooty or assault terminators? What about Vanguard Vets? Twin Lightning Claws or SS/Storm Bolter? Terminator SS/Storm Bolter?

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
You need the Bikers keyword to be affected by the beta bolter rule. A vet squad doesn't get the Biker, Terminator keywords when those models are added.

A 10 man squad of vets can be split into 2 5 man squads before deployment.

First time I’ve tried to put together a DW list. I have the models, but they were all bought during 7th edition and then put aside (unfortunately). I understand that combat squads mean you can split it into two five man squads, but from a list of 5 Vets, 2 Vanguard Vets, and 3 Bikers how would you split them.

Also, if I understand you correctly, adding Vanguard Vets and Bikers don’t give any of the abilities to the rest of the Vets. If that’s the case, does it make sense to build a squad like that?

Thanks

SG

Splitting them in the way BCB suggested makes the most sense as you get one immobile unit to hold and defend ground and one mobile offensive unit to be more aggressive with.

Adding bikers and vanguard grant their unit fall back amd charge and fall back and shoot respectively to their unit.

The new Beta Bolter rule lets units with the biker, Terminator keywords always rapid fire their guns so 4 shots at all times. Because our Vet squad Bikers and Terminators don't get their keywords we miss out on that unless we take the elite/fast attack versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ServiceGames wrote:

EDIT: Should I use shooty or assault terminators? What about Vanguard Vets? Twin Lightning Claws or SS/Storm Bolter? Terminator SS/Storm Bolter?

My preferred loadouts
Term: Storm Bolter Power Maul
Vanguard Vet: dual bolt pistols (if being included in a vet squad to keep them shooting) or melee weapon/Storm Shield (if being included in a biker/Vet unit like BCB was suggesting

 Eldarain wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
You need the Bikers keyword to be affected by the beta bolter rule. A vet squad doesn't get the Biker, Terminator keywords when those models are added.

A 10 man squad of vets can be split into 2 5 man squads before deployment.

First time I’ve tried to put together a DW list. I have the models, but they were all bought during 7th edition and then put aside (unfortunately). I understand that combat squads mean you can split it into two five man squads, but from a list of 5 Vets, 2 Vanguard Vets, and 3 Bikers how would you split them.

Also, if I understand you correctly, adding Vanguard Vets and Bikers don’t give any of the abilities to the rest of the Vets. If that’s the case, does it make sense to build a squad like that?

Thanks

SG

Splitting them in the way BCB suggested makes the most sense as you get one immobile unit to hold and defend ground and one mobile offensive unit to be more aggressive with.

Adding bikers and vanguard grant their unit fall back amd charge and fall back and shoot respectively to their unit.

The new Beta Bolter rule lets units with the biker, Terminator keywords always rapid fire their guns so 4 shots at all times. Because our Vet squad Bikers and Terminators don't get their keywords we miss out on that unless we take the elite/fast attack versions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ServiceGames wrote:

EDIT: Should I use shooty or assault terminators? What about Vanguard Vets? Twin Lightning Claws or SS/Storm Bolter? Terminator SS/Storm Bolter?

My preferred loadouts
Term: Storm Bolter Power Maul
Vanguard Vet: dual bolt pistols (if being included in a vet squad to keep them shooting) or melee weapon/Storm Shield (if being included in a biker/Vet unit like BCB was suggesting

I think I understand now. Thank you for taking the time to explain things.

Thanks again

SG

Primaris are the best way to run them imo, but you can do well without them.

I'd actually advise against splitting your Veteran units at all. One of the major strengths of DW Troops units is in weaving together all of the various special rules each model provides. The idea of the classic Veteran squad with a Terminator and a Vanguard Veteran (and sometimes optional Biker too) is that you get a 2+ save for tanking shots with no AP, a 3+ invulnerable save for taking any multi-damage or high-AP shots and a jump pack to let you fall back and still shoot. Splitting your units loses that set of bonuses so it's generally a bad idea.

DW without Primaris can work fine but I think Primaris add quite a few advantages, including longer range firepower, especially with the new Bolter rules. They're also relatively cheap for a W2, T4 model.

Slipspace wrote:
I'd actually advise against splitting your Veteran units at all. One of the major strengths of DW Troops units is in weaving together all of the various special rules each model provides. The idea of the classic Veteran squad with a Terminator and a Vanguard Veteran (and sometimes optional Biker too) is that you get a 2+ save for tanking shots with no AP, a 3+ invulnerable save for taking any multi-damage or high-AP shots and a jump pack to let you fall back and still shoot. Splitting your units loses that set of bonuses so it's generally a bad idea.

That's the beauty of the Deathwatch ruleset: you can do an entire army purely with Vets and have pretty much every aspect covered (possibly excepting serious AT, but there are ways to work around that).

There is a place for combat squadded units, just as there is a place for maximum sized mixed teams to utilize the multi-model rules.

Slipspace wrote:

DW without Primaris can work fine but I think Primaris add quite a few advantages, including longer range firepower, especially with the new Bolter rules. They're also relatively cheap for a W2, T4 model.

Deathwatch Primaris clock in at 18 points base. A Storm Bolter + Storm Shield Veteran is 20 points, far more durable and lethal. The additional 6" range and innate AP-1 on bolt rifles is nice, but at half the rate of fire and without a storm shield its no contest.

Slipspace wrote:
I'd actually advise against splitting your Veteran units at all. One of the major strengths of DW Troops units is in weaving together all of the various special rules each model provides. The idea of the classic Veteran squad with a Terminator and a Vanguard Veteran (and sometimes optional Biker too) is that you get a 2+ save for tanking shots with no AP, a 3+ invulnerable save for taking any multi-damage or high-AP shots and a jump pack to let you fall back and still shoot. Splitting your units loses that set of bonuses so it's generally a bad idea.

Or you can do both. Doing the split with 3 bikers and 2 vanguards gives you a nice little mobile squad with T5 and a couple of storm shields for some added durability, while the other half can sit back and camp objectives. I usually bring one kill team to split along with a couple full mixed teams.

So, another question. Vanguard Veterans make a lot of sense. But, what about Devastators? I have some Devastators that I just stripped as they were built for a 7th Edition Formation that no longer exists. So, what about using them in a Deathwatch Vet Squad just like they would be used in a regular Space Marine army?

I have a drop pod or two that I can use to bring them in, or I can equip a give man squad of them with Missile Launchers letting them hang back to take care of some of the far distant threats early in the game.

Considering equipping another squad of Devastators with Heavy Bolters in another Vet Squad and bring them in via either a Rhino/Razorback, Land Raider Crusader, Corvus Blackstar, or Drop Pod.

Thanks in advance

SG

Oh right, I had forgotten that part about DW veterans. They don't have the Biker keyword so they don't get the new beta rule. My bad! I blame being senile and GW being bad at rules.

 ServiceGames wrote:
So, another question. Vanguard Veterans make a lot of sense. But, what about Devastators? I have some Devastators that I just stripped as they were built for a 7th Edition Formation that no longer exists. So, what about using them in a Deathwatch Vet Squad just like they would be used in a regular Space Marine army?

I have a drop pod or two that I can use to bring them in, or I can equip a give man squad of them with Missile Launchers letting them hang back to take care of some of the far distant threats early in the game.

Considering equipping another squad of Devastators with Heavy Bolters in another Vet Squad and bring them in via either a Rhino/Razorback, Land Raider Crusader, Corvus Blackstar, or Drop Pod.

Thanks in advance

SG

You can put up to four heavy weapons in a Veteran squad. In theory one could do a Devastator-lite team, but you dont have access to the cherub. Personally though, Deathwatch works far better as a non-codex compliant force than trying to emulate a vanilla Astartes configuration.

Heavy weapon Vets work far better parked in cover with ablative storm shield wounds taking fire. With SIA a storm bolter can punch out to 30", and with the beta bolter rule it gets rapid fire if the squad is stationary (which you ideally want with your missile armed snipers). Heavy bolters are niche for their access to the MW strategem, but if you're playing mono DW you're already CP starved and have much higher priority strategems to use those CP on.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oh right, I had forgotten that part about DW veterans. They don't have the Biker keyword so they don't get the new beta rule. My bad! I blame being senile and GW being bad at rules.

So, should Bikers be left out of a Veteran Squad to make better use of the Beta Bolter rule or are they worthwhile in a Vet Squad even if they can't use the Beta Bolter rule? Do Vanguard Vets and Termies get the Beta Bolter rule if they are in a Veteran Squad?

Thanks in advance

SG

I personally think a mixed approach is best.

Take at least 1 Intercessor unit as a cheap backfield objective holder. The Bolt rifle has AP-1 so it jives very well with both the Kraken & Hellfire rounds. Using Kraken and remaining stationary will give you 10 shots at 36" with AP-2. Sticking them in cover will make them harder to shift.

But after that, the rest of you Troops should be Vets.
I'm actually having a hard time coming up with good unit builds to Combat Squad, because you really want a Vanguard Vet in each unit for the Fallback & Shoot.
I also really like the combo or Bikes, VVs and Terminators

The Bikes give the unit Fallback & Charge, and the Termie makes you Immune to Morale, plus a 2+ armour save model to dump AP-0 wound on if needed. Add a Teleport homer, and you can move them forward aggressively and still bring them back to your Deployment is needed.

I also like the idea of using the Bike's 14" move, 3" base and the VVs move to close the coherency gap with the rest of the unit. Makes the unit an aggressive melee threat, if only to charge and force the enemy to fallback and deal with the unit or units you just delivered in their face.

 ServiceGames wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Oh right, I had forgotten that part about DW veterans. They don't have the Biker keyword so they don't get the new beta rule. My bad! I blame being senile and GW being bad at rules.

So, should Bikers be left out of a Veteran Squad to make better use of the Beta Bolter rule or are they worthwhile in a Vet Squad even if they can't use the Beta Bolter rule? Do Vanguard Vets and Termies get the Beta Bolter rule if they are in a Veteran Squad?

Thanks in advance

SG

Technically, Termies and Bikes in Vet squads DO benefit from the Beta Bolter rule, but not to their full extent. Basically, then get the same benefit as your StormVets (have to either be stationary or at half range). But because they don't technically have the TERMNATOR or BIKER keywords in those units, they don't get full shots all the time, like they would in a non-Vet unit.

However, the benefits of having them in the Vet squad outweighs that IMO. Termies on their own are still not that great, Bikes are OK, but both are very useful in the Vet unit for the abilities they give to the Vets

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 ServiceGames wrote:
So, should Bikers be left out of a Veteran Squad to make better use of the Beta Bolter rule or are they worthwhile in a Vet Squad even if they can't use the Beta Bolter rule?

They're viable both as standalone units and as components of Vet teams. They'll fulfill a different role depending on the various ways you can play them, but in all of them they are absolutely worth their points.

 ServiceGames wrote:
Do Vanguard Vets and Termies get the Beta Bolter rule if they are in a Veteran Squad?

Vanguard Veterans cannot take Rapid Fire weapons, thus they don't benefit from the rule even though they are subject to it. Bikers and Terminators are still Adeptus Astartes Infantry units, and as such they will be able to double tap at full range if they dont move, but because the Veteran unit does not get the Biker or Terminator keyword they cannot do so while on the move.

Personally, I tried Bikers in full mixed teams and rarely ever made use of the fall back and charge ability (I can honestly only think of one time that really mattered when I did a fall back shoot and then charge to mop up the survivors). I find that DW Vets tend to be a little too squishy to be throwing into melee unless it is pretty certain the target unit will not be able to strike back. Their shooting output is just so much more effective.

Now I put my 3 bikers in a kill team with 2 vanguard and 5 vets to combat squad. The bikers and vanguard serve as a tougher mobile kamikaze unit to throw towards the enemy, while the other half can sit back and camp objectives.

I have the models, but I'm not sure I have all the bits needed to make all of these, but as many bits as I can find would be like this:

Three Squads of:

1 Watch Sergeant (Stalker Pattern Boltgun)
1 Termie (Storm Bolter & Power Maul)
1 Biker (Power Sword and Twin Bolt Guns)
1 Vanguard Vet (Two Bolt Pistols)
3 Vets (Storm Shields and Stormbolters)
1 Vet with Heavy Weapon (Infernus Heavy Bolter or Deathwatch Frag Cannon)
1 Vet with Heavy Weapon (Heavy Bolter)

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
I have the models, but I'm not sure I have all the bits needed to make all of these, but as many bits as I can find would be like this:

Three Squads of:

1 Watch Sergeant (Stalker Pattern Boltgun)
1 Termie (Storm Bolter & Power Maul)
1 Biker (Power Sword and Twin Bolt Guns)
1 Vanguard Vet (Two Bolt Pistols)
3 Vets (Storm Shields and Stormbolters)
1 Vet with Heavy Weapon (Infernus Heavy Bolter or Deathwatch Frag Cannon)
1 Vet Heavy Weapon (Heavy Bolter)

SG

The only issue I see with this setup is that it is too unfocused. You'd be better off with a unit with Bike/Termie/VV with no heavy weapons (all Storm/Twin bolters) and a melee weapon on you Sgt.
Then have another unit with 2 Heavies, 3 StormVets and a VV.

The bike/termie unit is aggressive and move forward, the heavy weapon unit stays back/stays safely behind the bike/termie unit and within range of Character support

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 Galef wrote:
The only issue I see with this setup is that it is too unfocused. You'd be better off with a unit with Bike/Termie/VV with no heavy weapons (all Storm/Twin bolters) and a melee weapon on you Sgt.
Then have another unit with 2 Heavies, 3 StormVets and a VV.

The bike/termie unit is aggressive and move forward, the heavy weapon unit stays back/stays safely behind the bike/termie unit and within range of Character support

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Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely keep that in mind

SG

If I'm going to combat sqd some bikes off for a fast moving obsec unit, I will do it with a stalker/hvy sqd, not your typical SB/SS troop.

So, 3 stalkers (2 w stormshields), HB, ML, 4 bikes, 1 vanvet w SS. Combat sqd off the bikes and vanvet, leave the other as a backline support.

My main sqds will be SB/SS, maybe a frag cannon, terminator with SB/PM and vanvet.

I do appreciate all of your help! Thank you for taking the time to walk me through some of this stuff. Being that I'm mainly a hobbyist trying to get into the game, a lot of this stuff goes over my head. I get the general concept, but I can't see them happening on the table in my head. I'll get there eventually.

Thanks again

SG

EDIT: Another question (rather important one). Which are the best Deathwatch HQs? So, I *think* I have Watch Captain Artemis (need to look around in some of my plastic containers to be sure). What other Deathwatch HQ is best?