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Vigilus Ablaze is almost upon us. Pre-orders are this Saturday and then we'll have it in our hands shortly thereafter, with plenty of previews of things between now and then.

If you're unaware of the situation, GW is reprinting the Chaos Space Marine Codex and putting in the new datasheets and updated Chapter Approved 2018 points values into the book. It's a quality of life upgrade so that you can reduce the number of books you have to carry around. Not a bad way to go about it.

If you already have the Chaos Space Marine Codex, you can get Vigilus Ablaze and you'll be all set for the new datasheets. Ablaze will also come with new formations for Chaos, just like we saw for Imperium and Xenos in Vigilus Defiant, as well as expanded rules for Black Legion, as well as Subfaction traits, Warlord traits, Relics, and Stratagems for 6 Renegade Factions (two undivided and one for each Chaos God). We've already seen a few of these rules in this Warhammer Community article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/20/20th-mar-vigilus-ablaze-previews-renegade-chapters-and-fallengw-homepage-post-3/

You might have also noticed the other articles focusing on the Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors. Well... if you've been following the posts here on Dakka, BoLS, Facebook, or anywhere else, you're likely to see some of these comments crop up:

"That Legion Trait is useless!"
"Why didn't you take the chance to update Legion traits?"
"Here's 100024740782 reasons why I hate GW even more now, and it's all because I don't like the way X or Y model looks, but I'm going to go on a tirade anyway!"

Here's the thing people are missing...

GW has given us two cakes. They're different, and some people won't like one, or both, but...

CHAOS NOW HAS MORE SUBFACTION TRAITS THAN ANY OTHER FACTION IN 40K.

Yep. We've got the 8 Legion Traits (Generic Renegade, Black Legion, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion)
AND we are getting 6 new Renegade Traits (Crimson Slaughter, Red Corsairs, Brazen Beasts, The Purge, The Scourged, and The Flawless Host)

14 different traits to choose from. Yes, some of you may be thinking "Well, but take out all the ones that SUCK!!"
Ok, let's knock out Night Lords and Word Bearers. The rest are pretty good given the right situation. Yes, they don't affect vehicles still, but there they are. That's still 12 Subfaction Traits, all with their own Warlord Trait, Relic, and Stratagems.

You have the 'Classic Chaos Legions' cake that many people don't like because of X or Y
and now you have the 'Renegade Chaos Marines' cake that has a lot of new rules and fresh abilities.

What is happening, however, is that people keep looking at the cake they don't like and ignoring the cake that's perfectly fine right next to it. They're screaming at GW with bile and hate for daring to cook a cake like the first one, not realizing that GW is plainly pointing to the new cake that they have and saying, "You don't have to eat that cake, you can eat this one instead if you want."

And there you have it.

drbored wrote:

What is happening, however, is that people keep looking at the cake they don't like and ignoring the cake that's perfectly fine right next to it. They're screaming at GW with bile and hate for daring to cook a cake like the first one, not realizing that GW is plainly pointing to the new cake that they have and saying, "You don't have to eat that cake, you can eat this one instead if you want."

"BUT THAT ONE SUCKZ TOO!"

Don't tell me that's not going to be the common reply.

yeah except if I want a chocolate cake and GW delivers an uneditable brick telling me "ohh hey we made a vanilla cake" isn't going to be that helpful

More options is almost always nice. False options that are unaddressed after nearly 2yrs of feedback and a reprint are disappointing. So yeah there's a mix of feelings because we are getting a fancy cake that few wanted and a burnt mess that already has our attention.

It looks like the overall thought is that more rules is kind of bloat and suggests that other factions will likewise expand. So streamlining into a manageable number of similarly useful traits would be idea. Unfortunately tourney play will nearly always dilute any balance into a no-choice meta midset.

I was seriously considering a beefy low model count chaos army since i have 2 boxes of shadow spear i was going to sell off.

BUT why would i buy a codex that will 100% have rules mistakes/lack of a simple additional sentance here and there which will need to be adressed by an FAQ thus invalidating the book i bough and the list i started to paint few months earlier...?

As a new 40 reserugent i have come to accept GW cant be trusted with releasing new codexes. I like ehat they did with beta SOB codex. That way any loopholes etc can be adressed as its being play tested by a much larger pool.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
More options is almost always nice. False options that are unaddressed after nearly 2yrs of feedback and a reprint are disappointing. So yeah there's a mix of feelings because we are getting a fancy cake that few wanted and a burnt mess that already has our attention.

A more apt comparison would probably be that they're selling us the same - now-stale - burnt cake, but they've changed the icing and have lain it on thicker.

"I don't understand why you're complaining. We gave you a plate of rotten food AND a cup of piss- no one else gets those options!"

An intelligent mind can hold two separate concepts to be true. A smart person can acknowledge that its a good thing that more options are being added into the game while SIMULTANEOUSLY lamenting that 80% of the new options are poorly written.

drbored wrote:
Yes, some of you may be thinking "Well, but take out all the ones that SUCK!!"
Ok, let's knock out Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Why does it suck to give an enemy unit up to -11 LD ? Only very few units are immune to morale losses.

More options is not automatically better. A surfeit of mostly poor options is also known as 'rules bloat' and is generally held to be bad game design. It also creates more 'trap choices' for new players.

 p5freak wrote:
Why does it suck to give an enemy unit up to -11 LD ? Only very few units are immune to morale losses.

All units are immune to morale. For 2CP. And since your Raptor squads will be gone by turn 3, it's a one-trick pony that just doesn't work.

And btw, -11 LD in a 6" radius is nearly impossible to reach. You're relying on multiple 9" charges with only a CP re-roll (since you're using the Icon of Despair rather than Wrath). So yes, the Night Lords trait utterly sucks. It should be 12" to have any kind of impact on the game.

 Nym wrote:

All units are immune to morale. For 2CP. And since your Raptor squads will be gone by turn 3, it's a one-trick pony that just doesn't work.

Yes, a unit can become immune to morale losses, but only one unit, and its 2 CP.

 Nym wrote:

And btw, -11 LD in a 6" radius is nearly impossible to reach. You're relying on multiple 9" charges with only a CP re-roll (since you're using the Icon of Despair rather than Wrath). So yes, the Night Lords trait utterly sucks. It should be 12" to have any kind of impact on the game.

Haarken is 18" for -1 LD, and butcher cannons are -2 LD at 36". 3x20 chaos cultists also give -1 LD for each unit, up to -3. Bikers also can get an icon of despair for -1, and they are harder to kill.

If you dont like any of the chaos cake, then do what i did and sell your army and or quit.

 p5freak wrote:
Haarken is 18" for -1 LD, and butcher cannons are -2 LD at 36". 3x20 chaos cultists also give -1 LD for each unit, up to -3. Bikers also can get an icon of despair for -1, and they are harder to kill.

This is all theory hammer honestly. Bringing even 1 squad of cultists within 6" of any valuable ennemy unit is virtually impossible. You're then relying on Bikers who will get targeted and killed on turn 1 and Butcher Cannons, which all legions get. And even if all the stars align you're still only killing chaff units who *WILL* use the 2CP stratagem, because this is all happening on turn 1 or 2.

Desperately trying to make a trait look good doesn't make it good. Nobody plays Night Lords, and for good reason. I play Orks, and honestly the worst kultur (Snakebites) is miles better than all CSM traits (bar AL).

Oh and let's not forget the main problem : this is all pointless against Knights, Flyer spam or any kind of vehicle heavy list, which are rampant right now.

drbored wrote:

What is happening, however, is that people keep looking at the cake they don't like and ignoring the cake that's perfectly fine right next to it. They're screaming at GW with bile and hate for daring to cook a cake like the first one, not realizing that GW is plainly pointing to the new cake that they have and saying, "You don't have to eat that cake, you can eat this one instead if you want."

And there you have it.

a) bad ones don't count. When internal balance sucks you just go for the -1 to hit
b) renegade X having good doesn't actually help say iron warrior players at all. Iron warriors have just one subfaction rules

The reason why is the "good" cake pigeonholes you into a specific subfaction, and feth you if you like word Bearers instead of red corsairs. That's why people are pissed. They chose not to update the traitor legion traits, but inexplicably also decided to give renegades better traits in the same breath as saying they weren't updating things.

It's like being at your job for years and getting gak and then the junior level guy the company just hired gets an office and more money than you after they told you they had no budget and no spare office.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

drbored wrote:

What is happening, however, is that people keep looking at the cake they don't like and ignoring the cake that's perfectly fine right next to it. They're screaming at GW with bile and hate for daring to cook a cake like the first one, not realizing that GW is plainly pointing to the new cake that they have and saying, "You don't have to eat that cake, you can eat this one instead if you want."

And there you have it.

a) bad ones don't count. When internal balance sucks you just go for the -1 to hit
b) renegade X having good doesn't actually help say iron warrior players at all. Iron warriors have just one subfaction rules

This says it slightly less vehemently than I did lol

You can have your Legion in any colour you like, as long as it is Black.

 p5freak wrote:

drbored wrote:
Yes, some of you may be thinking "Well, but take out all the ones that SUCK!!"
Ok, let's knock out Night Lords and Word Bearers.

Why does it suck to give an enemy unit up to -11 LD ? Only very few units are immune to morale losses.

Should I ever find an excuse to play doubles with genestealer cult and chaos I'm certainly going to love that.

To put that guy's cake analogy another way it's more like this:

GW: Traitor Legions, here's a nice vanilla cake. But no frosting though, because reasons.

Traitor Legion Players: Umm.. okay, thanks

GW: Oh by the way we are remaking this cake, but it's still going to be vanilla. Maybe we'll put frosting on it this time with some extras, but it's going to be the same cake.

Also GW: Traitor Legions, here's your vanilla cake 2.0. We added a bit of cream to the middle now, but it's still vanilla.
Hey Renegades, here's a chocolate cake with seven layers and seven different kinds of chocolate.

Renegade Players: Yay!

Traitor Legion Players: I thought you said you were just remaking the cake?

GW: Uhh.. we did. Don't you like chocolate?

Traitor Legion Players: No, we like vanilla.

GW: Better learn to like chocolate.

Okay all analogies aside, I see three types of people with this:

1) Competitive players who usually don't care about anything in particular as long as it's good and will run "counts as" Red Corsairs just for the mechanical benefit (probably with a min battalion and then 2 other detachments with the "good stuff"). These are the guys who will use a custom color so they can play as whatever they want (i.e. whatever is the "meta" at that point) without caring, or worse just count their existing colors as something else for the in-game benefit.

2) Actual Red Corsairs players who are happy that their army has gotten some serious love because they are actual fans of the army and its background.

3) Traitor Legion players who feel like they just got gak on because they got nothing new and were told there would be nothing new, only for there to be new things but not for them unless they decide to ignore what attracted them to their army of choice and play something else.

I would wager most CSM players have a preferred Legion/Chapter and only play that, you know the way GW keeps indicating in all their marketing how you're supposed to pick an army and stick with it. I doubt very many enjoy being told "Just use your Word Bearers as Red Corsairs or stop whining" like a ton of people seem to just lash out with every time people point out GW's hypocrisy and/or give criticism to what they do.

That's why people are angry. The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers players feel shafted because GW was very specific that there wouldn't be updates. Then they turn around and update Renegade chapters, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but they somehow decided to give the Renegades traits that are just better than the legions when they had the chance to update both.

You have the 'Classic Chaos Legions' cake that many people don't like because of X or Y
and now you have the 'Renegade Chaos Marines' cake that has a lot of new rules and fresh abilities.

What is happening, however, is that people keep looking at the cake they don't like and ignoring the cake that's perfectly fine right next to it. They're screaming at GW with bile and hate for daring to cook a cake like the first one, not realizing that GW is plainly pointing to the new cake that they have and saying, "You don't have to eat that cake, you can eat this one instead if you want."

There are a lot of legions traits that are unalanced torwards each other.
Secondly: They would have had the chance to fix it and didn't .
Thirdly: Now we get the renegades, which is great, but in all fairness, it would've been better to fix up the existing traits.

Also as a sidenote: So far the New oblits don't perform up to par with the old ones.
The apostle now can be a meme but lost his reliability for melee csm armies, which is also ehhh.

I mean there is valid reason to point to this and ask why?

drbored wrote:

If you already have the Chaos Space Marine Codex, you can get Vigilus Ablaze and you'll be all set for the new datasheets. Ablaze will also come with new formations for Chaos, just like we saw for Imperium and Xenos

You mean for orks, craftworld eldar and genestealer cults.

Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Drukhari, and Harlequins didn't get gak and will probably wait for at least another 2-3 campaign books before they get anything, because I'm sure the next one will be something like daemons/sisters/gk/deathguard/tsons or something.

nareik wrote:
You can have your Legion in any colour you like, as long as it is Black.

This would be funnier if it wasn't sadly so true.

the_scotsman wrote:

drbored wrote:

If you already have the Chaos Space Marine Codex, you can get Vigilus Ablaze and you'll be all set for the new datasheets. Ablaze will also come with new formations for Chaos, just like we saw for Imperium and Xenos

You mean for orks, craftworld eldar and genestealer cults.

Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Drukhari, and Harlequins didn't get gak and will probably wait for at least another 2-3 campaign books before they get anything, because I'm sure the next one will be something like daemons/sisters/gk/deathguard/tsons or something.

Which, as an aside, is one of my issues with specialist detachments. They should have been released with at least one for everyone in one shot, not some get something, then others get something, while a bunch get gak and are therefore behind the curve.

Wayniac wrote:
To put that guy's cake analogy another way it's more like this:

GW: Traitor Legions, here's a nice vanilla cake. But no frosting though, because reasons.

Traitor Legion Players: Umm.. okay, thanks

GW: Oh by the way we are remaking this cake, but it's still going to be vanilla. Maybe we'll put frosting on it this time with some extras, but it's going to be the same cake.

Also GW: Traitor Legions, here's your vanilla cake 2.0. We added a bit of cream to the middle now, but it's still vanilla.
Hey Renegades, here's a chocolate cake with seven layers and seven different kinds of chocolate.

Renegade Players: Yay!

Traitor Legion Players: I thought you said you were just remaking the cake?

GW: Uhh.. we did. Don't you like chocolate?

Traitor Legion Players: No, we like vanilla.

GW: Better learn to like chocolate.

Okay all analogies aside, I see three types of people with this:

1) Competitive players who usually don't care about anything in particular as long as it's good and will run "counts as" Red Corsairs just for the mechanical benefit (probably with a min battalion and then 2 other detachments with the "good stuff"). These are the guys who will use a custom color so they can play as whatever they want (i.e. whatever is the "meta" at that point) without caring, or worse just count their existing colors as something else for the in-game benefit.

2) Actual Red Corsairs players who are happy that their army has gotten some serious love because they are actual fans of the army and its background.

3) Traitor Legion players who feel like they just got gak on because they got nothing new and were told there would be nothing new, only for there to be new things but not for them unless they decide to ignore what attracted them to their army of choice and play something else.

I would wager most CSM players have a preferred Legion/Chapter and only play that, you know the way GW keeps indicating in all their marketing how you're supposed to pick an army and stick with it. I doubt very many enjoy being told "Just use your Word Bearers as Red Corsairs or stop whining" like a ton of people seem to just lash out with every time people point out GW's hypocrisy and/or give criticism to what they do.

That's why people are angry. The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers players feel shafted because GW was very specific that there wouldn't be updates. Then they turn around and update Renegade chapters, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but they somehow decided to give the Renegades traits that are just better than the legions when they had the chance to update both.

I dunno, I think you are missing 4) make your own Renegade warband.

I actually a month ago broke out a csm squad my girlfriend gave me a year or two ago to build a kill team, and was debating internally all over what legion to play it as (I am planning on building it up to a small army level), as there were a ton of Legion options, but only 1 Renegade option, and I specifically was planning on them being on the Renegade side, with maybe some small contact with a Legion. Long story short, I am thrilled that a month later, they add a whole bunch of new Renegade options. Hell, even with Red Corsairs being my favorite Chaos Marine faction, I'd still rather have my own guys with their own name and history.

Personally, I quite like how the focus is being expanded to include the renegade warbands of CSM.

Also chocolate cake is pretty rank... so I feel like all of your analogies need rethinking

 Nym wrote:
Desperately trying to make a trait look good doesn't make it good. Nobody plays Night Lords, and for good reason. I play Orks, and honestly the worst kultur (Snakebites) is miles better than all CSM traits (bar AL).

Oh and let's not forget the main problem : this is all pointless against Knights, Flyer spam or any kind of vehicle heavy list, which are rampant right now.

I remain convinced Paul at my club has Night Lords. I could of sworn he reduced my guard army to Stracken and a vulture.

Do Night Lords have access to psycic powers like the 'cults mind control or mid war stuff?

Serious question: if an option is not the top tier, competitive, 'best' option does that make in worthless from a design and development standpoint?

Look I'm sorry but I'm really confused. I don't expect everyone to approach this game the same as I do (narrative > crunch, but use the crunch that fits the narrative when appropriate) but if the issue is that because there's always one or two 'best choices' and that anyone that doesn't have that choice is thus sub-par and worthless then...what?

Still, the main issue here is that people who are fans of the traitor legions feel like they got gak on since their rules didn't get updated but the Renegades did (not that giving renegades extras is a bad thing, but not updating the traitor legion traits at the same time was a missed opportunity).

So the people who benefit are the ones who either don't care what they run as long as it's good (probably use their own color scheme so they can run it as whatever is best at that point) or who just so happened to already play Red Corsairs. The ones who are left out are the ones who are big fans of Night Lords or Iron Warriors or Word Bearers and just got nothing to fix the issues with their traits while seeing the "fix" to making CSM better go to a very specific and niche faction.

The devil is in the details.

It is quite possible that Red Corsairs will be meta dominant soon just as Catachans are.

But it is also just CP. I'll bet you will still see Abaddon in those lists, too.

Chaos now has a loyal 32. That doesn't mean that's the only useful part of the list.

Yup.
We can be both excited to have new renegade support AND be disappointed from the clear miss of the legions getting nothing, not even a fix to the obvious trash options that not even fluff bunnies bear to play.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yup.
We can be both excited to have new renegade support AND be disappointed from the clear miss of the legions getting nothing, not even a fix to the obvious trash options that not even fluff bunnies bear to play.

It is disappointing, but not disastrous. No one wants their legion to have a weak trait. But despite *never* using the BL trait I still take them, because Abaddon is awesome.