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Made in gb
Norn Queen






As proven countless times by the Ynnari, free actions in a game with limited turns is too game breaking to properly balance. Given that orders are free, unable to fail and unable to be blocked, the more problematic ones should be tweaked.

Take Aim!: Unchanged

Bring it Down!: Unchanged

First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!: All lasguns and all hot-shot lasguns in the ordered unit change their Type to Assault 3 until the end of the phase. This order cannot be issued to a unit that advanced in its movement phase.

Forwards, for the Emperor!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Advanced in its Movement phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.

Get Back in the Fight!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Fell Back in its Movement phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.

Fix Bayonets!: This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit can add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons until the end of the turn.

Move! Move! Move!: Scrapped.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I'm of the opinion a better approuch would be to make orders require a sucessful role. 3+ unless the unit has a Vox operator, then it's on 2+

they did this prior to 8th edition and IMHO it worked nicely. psykers can't buff their army without some element of risk, nor can dark apostles.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Have you ever mathed our the impact of non-movement related orders?

Re-roll 1’s on BS 4+ is a 1/12 accuracy improvement. You go from 50 to 58. Reroll 1’s Auras on SM characters add 2/9 or 22% accuracy. 67 to 89% accuracy. Unlimited number of units, leveraging higher value units.

Guard orders are fine.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Not even close.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
Have you ever mathed our the impact of non-movement related orders?

Re-roll 1’s on BS 4+ is a 1/12 accuracy improvement. You go from 50 to 58. Reroll 1’s Auras on SM characters add 2/9 or 22% accuracy. 67 to 89% accuracy. Unlimited number of units, leveraging higher value units.

Guard orders are fine.


Eh, orders also affect veterans and scions who have BS 3+. Besides, there's still FRFSRF which currently doubles lasgun fire. But I'm also of the opinion that commander auras should have limited targets instead of just everyone within 6".
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I personally hate the aura scheme and think that is sucks for any marine list that's not a gunline. I'd rather auras were completely gone and replaced with something completely different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/21 20:54:18


 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Frankly, I wish auras were replaced with orders, for everyone.

Essentially, they’re no-cost stratagems in effect. Which kind of makes up for IG stratagems being lacklustre overall.

And I generally wish stratagems that are clear and necessary buffs to certain units were just baked into the cost. BA jump pack units all cost more, but may always reroll charge distance.

Orders are genuinely fun mechanics. Fight twice? Maybe an issue if they weren’t Emperor-Cursed Guardsmen. Oh, look, my 3 surviving Guardsmen get to make 5 more attacks at S3 and no AP. Broken! Make that so it only passes on a 3+!

You don’t need to randomize the success of orders, because they only effect units that are worth 100 points or less. They are genuinely in a spot where they’re fun, fluffy, and proper power level which is *not a lot*. Doubling lasgun shots? It’s a 1 wound bump against anything MEQ. At best.

Orders don’t leverage anything meaningful. It’s why Invisible Guard Blobs were never a thing. You just don’t get anything out of it. But invisible Wraith Knights? Oh, yes indeed they were a thing. Because it leveraged something meaningful.

That’s why orders are fine.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Dandelion wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
Have you ever mathed our the impact of non-movement related orders?

Re-roll 1’s on BS 4+ is a 1/12 accuracy improvement. You go from 50 to 58. Reroll 1’s Auras on SM characters add 2/9 or 22% accuracy. 67 to 89% accuracy. Unlimited number of units, leveraging higher value units.

Guard orders are fine.


Eh, orders also affect veterans and scions who have BS 3+. Besides, there's still FRFSRF which currently doubles lasgun fire. But I'm also of the opinion that commander auras should have limited targets instead of just everyone within 6".

People don't take Veterans for a reason, and Scions are only affected by Tempestor Primes.

FRFSRF only applies to Lasguns and Hotshot Lasguns.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 greatbigtree wrote:
Frankly, I wish auras were replaced with orders, for everyone.

Essentially, they’re no-cost stratagems in effect. Which kind of makes up for IG stratagems being lacklustre overall.

And I generally wish stratagems that are clear and necessary buffs to certain units were just baked into the cost. BA jump pack units all cost more, but may always reroll charge distance.

Orders are genuinely fun mechanics. Fight twice? Maybe an issue if they weren’t Emperor-Cursed Guardsmen. Oh, look, my 3 surviving Guardsmen get to make 5 more attacks at S3 and no AP. Broken! Make that so it only passes on a 3+!

You don’t need to randomize the success of orders, because they only effect units that are worth 100 points or less. They are genuinely in a spot where they’re fun, fluffy, and proper power level which is *not a lot*. Doubling lasgun shots? It’s a 1 wound bump against anything MEQ. At best.

Orders don’t leverage anything meaningful. It’s why Invisible Guard Blobs were never a thing. You just don’t get anything out of it. But invisible Wraith Knights? Oh, yes indeed they were a thing. Because it leveraged something meaningful.

That’s why orders are fine.


We have different definition of meaningful. It's fine. The apologetics are expected now.
   
Made in us
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Iowa

 greatbigtree wrote:
Frankly, I wish auras were replaced with orders, for everyone.

Essentially, they’re no-cost stratagems in effect. Which kind of makes up for IG stratagems being lacklustre overall.

And I generally wish stratagems that are clear and necessary buffs to certain units were just baked into the cost. BA jump pack units all cost more, but may always reroll charge distance.

Orders are genuinely fun mechanics. Fight twice? Maybe an issue if they weren’t Emperor-Cursed Guardsmen. Oh, look, my 3 surviving Guardsmen get to make 5 more attacks at S3 and no AP. Broken! Make that so it only passes on a 3+!

You don’t need to randomize the success of orders, because they only effect units that are worth 100 points or less. They are genuinely in a spot where they’re fun, fluffy, and proper power level which is *not a lot*. Doubling lasgun shots? It’s a 1 wound bump against anything MEQ. At best.

Orders don’t leverage anything meaningful. It’s why Invisible Guard Blobs were never a thing. You just don’t get anything out of it. But invisible Wraith Knights? Oh, yes indeed they were a thing. Because it leveraged something meaningful.

That’s why orders are fine.

If I had any control over how everyone gets orders would be implemented, Astartes squads would individually elect an “order” to use each turn.
I don’t know how canticles from AdMech work or use to work, but I could imagine them doing something similar, maybe attached to a character being alive or something. I haven’t figured out Sisters or anyone else yet.
Guard and Scions would just stay the same as they are now mechanically.
There may or may not be a universal set of order buffs, then maybe faction and then subfaction specific order buffs, to reflect the unique traits of factions of factions/subfactions.

Characters could have different kinds of auras or other benefits.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 BaconCatBug wrote:
First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!: All lasguns and all hot-shot lasguns in the ordered unit change their Type to Assault 3 until the end of the phase. This order cannot be issued to a unit that advanced in its movement phase.
This is a poor choice of phrasing. The Order changes Rapid Fire weapons to Assault weapons, but you can't use them like Assault weapons. So it's unnecessarily confusing, it invalidates the need to get up close for Rapid Fire (which is clearly a key part of the order's image and intent), and it screws over Armageddon, Tallarn, and Vosotroya Doctrines, which key off Rapid Fire weapons.

If your intent is just to take FRFSRF from 2-4 shots per gun down to 2-3 shots per gun, you can say that:
"Models in the ordered unit can make one additional attack when firing lasguns and hot-shot lasguns until the end of the phase."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Forwards, for the Emperor!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Advanced in its Movement phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.
Note that the phrasing used for similar abilities is much more conservative, as it tends to exclude Heavy weapons or actually benefiting from Rapid Firing. The Black Legion, for example:
"In addition, if a unit with this trait Advanced, it treats all its Rapid Fire weapons as Assault weapons until the end of the turn (e.g. a Rapid Fire 2 weapon is treated as an Assault 2 weapon)."

Granted, the Tallarn Doctrine already cheerfully ignores over that trend, but this order is, was, and remains useless to them anyway, so they're not strictly relevant.

I'd also clarify whether this penalty is meant to stack with the -1 for moving and shooting a Heavy weapon.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fix Bayonets!: This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit can add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons until the end of the turn.
While the debuff to Get Back In The Fight obviously makes Fix Bayonets more useful by comparison, I'm not sure that this order was much of a problem anyway. Its multiplicative effect when combined with Priests was a bit silly, yes, but in practice that meant investing notable resources into a given infantry squad (two characters, minimum) to make it into... basically Hormagaunts (IG doubles attacks every other turn, Hormagaunts reroll 1s to hit/wound).

Whatever the verdict on the old version, however, this one is useless. +100% hits was silly, but +30% hits is far too low; +1 to hit in a Fight phase is amazing on, say, Space Marines, or Tyranids, or Orks, or anything that doesn't hit like a wet bag of noodles, but on Astra Militarum it just means that my Infantry Squad get to die like Eldar Guardians instead of Fire Warriors. A very generously-sized 20-man infantry squad (post Consolidate Squads, and they also didn't take any injuries in the first turn of combat) with a nearby priest is churning out 40 attacks (20 hits). With this order, it's instead churning out 26 hits. +6 hits total. Or I could back that massively combat-optimized (for AM, anyway) squad off, use Get Back In The Fight, and fire 40 shots at -1 to hit for 13 hits, plus another 6 hits on Overwatch when I get charged again, plus whatever special weapons I have on hand (hey, flamers ignore that -1 to hit) and freedom for the rest of my army to pelt that enemy unit once I Fall Back.

There's almost no use-case for this order. Unless you're a Cadian whose opponent charged into a 20-man consolidated squad with a Priest nearby and failed to kill many of them in the first round. That's specific enough to be a problem.

My suggestion would be to do away with the multiplicative aspect and just make it another straight "extra attack" order. This also lets you remove the "within 1" requirement, making it more flexible:
"The ordered unit can make one additional attack with each of its models in your next Fight phase."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Move! Move! Move!: Scrapped.
I dunno, seems like you could remove the ability to Advance again and it'd be fine. If not for the timing of the phases, I'd say giving an infantry unit a turbo-boost (i.e. max Advance distance) would be fine for an Order. How about:

If the ordered unit did not Advance in its previous Movement phase, instead of shooting it can immediately move as if it were the Movement phase. It cannot Advance as part of this move, or attempt a charge later this turn.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 10:33:09


 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

I'd like to see M!M!M! changed to "This unit counts as having rolled a 6 for Advance Rolls" but the Advance roll is already made by the time the order is issued.

Changing it to something along the lines of... "This order can't be issued to a unit that has Advanced this turn. The ordered unit may make a 6" move as though it were the movement phase, but can't Advance as part of this move". That would let them move 12", as though rolling a 6 for the Advance move.

At that point... I'd probably prefer the fire and move order, but I'm a risk taker. Burning an order to get a 12" move in an army without bikes, jetpacks, wings, or other speedy (non-transport) movement seems fair.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





I like the idea if having orders happen with a roll. Good balancing factor. Maybe even have different more powerful orders have higher rolls.

Eg: Move move move (4+): target unit adds 3" to their movement.

Fix bayonets (5+): unit may fight twice.

Take Aim (4+): unit has +1 to hit in shooting phase

Get back in the fight (3+): unit auto passes morale

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Apple Peel wrote:

If I had any control over how everyone gets orders would be implemented, Astartes squads would individually elect an “order” to use each turn.

If people tell me I'm crazy for thinking that a multilayered system of Orders for Guard(a Detachment wide, Unit type wide, and then Unit specific--in that order) could work--then we don't need Astartes ever having anything that isn't auras.

I don’t know how canticles from AdMech work or use to work, but I could imagine them doing something similar, maybe attached to a character being alive or something.

Canticles was a dumpster fire to start with. It was based off the number of units you had on the field for the Cult Mechanicus list, which wouldn't really spam a large number of units because of points investitures.

It's partly why the War Convocation(which granted Canticles to Skitarii and a single Imperial Knight) was taken so much. It wasn't that the limited number of Skitarii you got were great--it's that it buffed up the Canticles for the Kataphrons and Kastellans.

And before anyone says it, yes there was free upgrades for stuff--but the Skitarii aren't exactly swimming in upgrades


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 greatbigtree wrote:
I'd like to see M!M!M! changed to "This unit counts as having rolled a 6 for Advance Rolls" but the Advance roll is already made by the time the order is issued.

Changing it to something along the lines of... "This order can't be issued to a unit that has Advanced this turn. The ordered unit may make a 6" move as though it were the movement phase, but can't Advance as part of this move". That would let them move 12", as though rolling a 6 for the Advance move.

At that point... I'd probably prefer the fire and move order, but I'm a risk taker. Burning an order to get a 12" move in an army without bikes, jetpacks, wings, or other speedy (non-transport) movement seems fair.

I'm sick of all the whining about M^3.

Just make it this:
Move, Move, Move!:
The ordered unit makes an immediate Advance move, counting the roll as a 6. The unit must end on an objective or within cover.

There. Fixed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 12:14:48


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I like the idea if having orders happen with a roll. Good balancing factor. Maybe even have different more powerful orders have higher rolls.

Eg: Move move move (4+): target unit adds 3" to their movement.

Fix bayonets (5+): unit may fight twice.

Take Aim (4+): unit has +1 to hit in shooting phase

Get back in the fight (3+): unit auto passes morale

Rolling for Orders is a terrible idea, just like it was a horrible "addition" to the Dark Apostle and Acts of Faith (and in the latter case, will almost certainly be removed). There is nothing less fun than having a powerful and evocative ability, one you might quite rightly build an army around, do sweet feth-all on a random dice roll with no input or influence from yourself. It's why Possessed are trash and Chaos Spawn are fun, it's why Orks quite rightly had Animosity stripped from their codex, and it's why the Psychic phase is in need of a retool. Anything that's a gamble should be interactive, so that you feel you took a deliberate risk, and anything that isn't should be reliable; whether powerful or weak, Orders are so fundamental to the Astra Militarum experience that making them a gamble would be like asking other armies to roll a D6 to see if they could move this turn.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If people tell me I'm crazy for thinking that a multilayered system of Orders for Guard(a Detachment wide, Unit type wide, and then Unit specific--in that order) could work--then we don't need Astartes ever having anything that isn't auras.
Could you expand on this? By "unit type wide", do you mean issuing an Order to every INFANTRY or VEHICLE or CAVALRY unit in your army at once, or do you just mean splitting up Orders in that fashion? That idea sort of reminds me of my preferred approach to Mont'ka vs Kauyon, for Tau; you choose whether a given Tau Detachment is MONT'KA or KAUYON at the end of Deployment, and every unit gains it as a keyword, opening up or altering suitable Stratagems. Each Warlord Trait would come with its own Philosophy Of War, affecting how the keyword worked; one might allow you to swap between keywords once per game, while another might allow you to treat units within 6" as having both keywords, and another might allow you to swap between keywords for a single turn once per game, and another might allow you to use inappropriate keywords at an extra CP cost.

Personally, I'd be interested in trying out a more "localized" Order system, where each unit has the orders it can issue or be issued listed in its datasheet. e.g. An Infantry Squad has First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! and Move, Move, Move! on its datasheet, while a Special Weapons Squad has Take Aim! and Bring It Down!, and an Officer has Forward, For The Emperor! and Get Back in the Fight!. The Officer has Voice of Command, and so can trigger any of the orders on a unit's datasheet or his own. A Stratagem would allow you to trigger an Order on a unit without an Officer nearby, etc. Not sure it'd work; you'd need to be sparing with the Orders on each datasheet, or they'd swell to unmanageable sizes or require recentralization anyway. But it'd be a different approach that could open up some interesting avenues.

Honestly, my main gripe with the Orders system is that it represents how Tyranids are meant to work much better than Synapse does. If a Guard unit is more than 6" away from an OFFICER with a spare Order, its usefulness is practically cut in half; it can shoot half as much or fight half as much or move half as much or it can't pull off special maneuvers or avoid missing with heavy weapons. On the other hand, if a Tyranid unit is more than 24" away from any SYNAPSE beast, it... suffers a penalty to attacking anything but the closest enemy. And if it's more than 12" away it can't ignore 8e's terribly boring Morale system.

If we ever enter 9e, I'd love to see Orders become a more general thing, where you get a Hero Phase in which your characters can activate certain abilities for a limited number of nearby units. 8e kicked things off with Auras, and the result was a pretty generic set of boosts that almost every army shared, but I feel like a less passive system focused on triggering abilities in certain units would open up opportunities for more differentiation between armies, with Space Marines relying less on the Hero Phase to buff individual units (because they're all heroes) and Tyranids being utterly dependent on the Hero Phase to keep the army active.
   
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Brisbane

Anyone who thinks Orders are fine is delusional...

Hell, I'd simply remove them completely.

I'm also a firm believer in the fact that Boltguns need at least AP-1 and that Hotshot Lasguns need their AP-2 nerfed to AP-1 or even AP- to keep them in line with how the original Hellguns were...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Slayer6 wrote:
Anyone who thinks Orders are fine is delusional...

Hell, I'd simply remove them completely.
Why? Astra Militarum rely on their leaders to directly manage them in combat. It's one of the things that makes them distinct from Space Marines, who are inspired by their leaders in the field, or Adeptus Mechanicus, who need their leaders to repair and refine them, or Tyranids, who are kept from falling into panicked instinctive behaviour by their leaders' presence, or Orks, whose leaders urge them quicker into combat.

Orders are a characteristic rule that is central to the "narrative" and "feel" of playing Astra Militarum. They're too powerful right now, yes, but that means they need to be toned down, not removed. Otherwise you'd be headed back to the days of bland armies distinguished from each other only by weapon stats and squad sizes.

Slayer6 wrote:
I'm also a firm believer in the fact that Boltguns need at least AP-1 and that Hotshot Lasguns need their AP-2 nerfed to AP-1 or even AP- to keep them in line with how the original Hellguns were...
AP underwent a very fundamental change between editions, but for the most part the writers have just translated it very straightforwardly: what was AP2 is now AP–3, what was AP3 is now AP-2, and so on. Hellguns used to be AP3, so now Hotshot Lasguns are AP-2. That's the way it works. Now, that's not the way it should work, because AP-2 is actually very different from AP3... but that's a whole other conversation.

I think you're imagining that AP-1 would mean Marines could shred lightly armoured infantry, but that's not how AP works now. Putting AP-1 on Boltguns means +20% wounds against Orks, +25% wounds against Guard, and +100% wounds when my Tactical Squad fires on Terminators or a Land Raider. That's hilariously overpowered, and absolutely not what Boltguns are meant for.

If you really want Boltguns to be better at shredding 5+ and 6+ saves, without suddenly becoming a delight to tank hunt with, you can't give them AP-1. Instead, force enemies to reroll 6s to save against boltgun shots. This is a flat +16% boost against everyone – and therefore hurts lightly armoured infantry much worse than Terminators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 11:25:38


 
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






Guard orders are so weak its really not a problem.

The only one people are having issues with is MOVE MOVE MOVE because it makes them cover so much ground it invalidates transports for them and gives them such a strong board presence.

You can fix this pretty easy though.

MOVE MOVE MOVE!- A unit given this order must immediately take a move action. If the unit advances as part of this move you must roll a dice for each model and for any natural 1's you roll must remove a model as though they had suffered moral loss's and fled the battlefield. Once the move is complete this unit can no longer make any other actions during this game round.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Guard orders are so weak its really not a problem.

The only one people are having issues with is MOVE MOVE MOVE because it makes them cover so much ground it invalidates transports for them and gives them such a strong board presence.

You can fix this pretty easy though.

MOVE MOVE MOVE!- A unit given this order must immediately take a move action. If the unit advances as part of this move you must roll a dice for each model and for any natural 1's you roll must remove a model as though they had suffered moral loss's and fled the battlefield. Once the move is complete this unit can no longer make any other actions during this game round.


I'd prefer MMM just being a free 6" on your advance roll. To make it work (since Orders happen AFTER advancing) make it a 6" move, but cannot be issued to units that have advanced.

It lets them go fast, but not faster than you can get normally with a little luck.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Guard orders are so weak its really not a problem.

The only one people are having issues with is MOVE MOVE MOVE because it makes them cover so much ground it invalidates transports for them and gives them such a strong board presence.

You can fix this pretty easy though.

MOVE MOVE MOVE!- A unit given this order must immediately take a move action. If the unit advances as part of this move you must roll a dice for each model and for any natural 1's you roll must remove a model as though they had suffered moral loss's and fled the battlefield. Once the move is complete this unit can no longer make any other actions during this game round.


I'd prefer MMM just being a free 6" on your advance roll. To make it work (since Orders happen AFTER advancing) make it a 6" move, but cannot be issued to units that have advanced.

It lets them go fast, but not faster than you can get normally with a little luck.

I’d be ok with this, not some crazy, nerf happy attempt at killing guardsmen, with Scions as an afterthought.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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You'd have to nerf them a LOT to kill them. I'd use them with no guns and no orders.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 16:54:41


 
   
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London, Ontario

I’ve tried that. It doesn’t work as well as you might think, on account of that being a terrible idea.
   
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Iowa

Martel732 wrote:
You'd have to nerf them a LOT to kill them. I'd use them with no guns and no orders.

Really? The m^3 fix just above that had the ordered unit remove models on rolls of one as if it had just jumped from a Valkyrie? That’s completely ridiculous.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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 Apple Peel wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You'd have to nerf them a LOT to kill them. I'd use them with no guns and no orders.

Really? The m^3 fix just above that had the ordered unit remove models on rolls of one as if it had just jumped from a Valkyrie? That’s completely ridiculous.



Not really. They only cost 4 ppm. You aren't losing anything on 1. Not really.
   
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Iowa

Martel732 wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You'd have to nerf them a LOT to kill them. I'd use them with no guns and no orders.

Really? The m^3 fix just above that had the ordered unit remove models on rolls of one as if it had just jumped from a Valkyrie? That’s completely ridiculous.



Not really. They only cost 4 ppm. You aren't losing anything on 1. Not really.

And Scions cost 9 ppm. And usually cost more when carrying a special weapon. Most people here don’t think of the implications of what is being suggested.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
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That's still a pittance compared to what I'm used to. Maybe just make scions immune the effect, then?

I don't think 4 ppm models should get orders OR regiment bonus because the are four fething points. They've stripped everything off cultists who are 5 ppm.
   
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 greatbigtree wrote:
Have you ever mathed our the impact of non-movement related orders?

Re-roll 1’s on BS 4+ is a 1/12 accuracy improvement. You go from 50 to 58. Reroll 1’s Auras on SM characters add 2/9 or 22% accuracy. 67 to 89% accuracy. Unlimited number of units, leveraging higher value units.

Guard orders are fine.

LOL. Doubling a units firepower is not fine...not for 30 points of required HQ filling (Cheapest fething HQ's in the game)
For the price you pay orders should be garbage.
+1 Leadership order - +1 to advance and charge rolls. Reroll 1's. This kind of stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 18:15:42


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 Xenomancers wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
Have you ever mathed our the impact of non-movement related orders?

Re-roll 1’s on BS 4+ is a 1/12 accuracy improvement. You go from 50 to 58. Reroll 1’s Auras on SM characters add 2/9 or 22% accuracy. 67 to 89% accuracy. Unlimited number of units, leveraging higher value units.

Guard orders are fine.

LOL. Doubling a units firepower is not fine...not for 30 points of required HQ filling (Cheapest fething HQ's in the game)
For the price you pay orders should be garbage.
+1 Leadership order - +1 to advance and charge rolls. Reroll 1's. This kind of stuff.


demonstrably untrue statement is untrue.

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Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Ranked Fire and Move Move Move are the major problem points:

Ranked Fire changes Lasguns into Boltguns, which is a big deal for a total unit being equal to about 55 points.

Move Move Move results in a unit moving 12+2d6", which, while not the fasted units basic troops is the game, is pretty silly.


If Katherine were to re-do Orders, I'd do something like:
Orders are issued at the beginning of their controlling player's movement phase, and remain in effect until the beginning of their next movement phase.

Infantry Orders: Issued by Company and Platoon Command Sections to <Regiment> INFANTRY units.
Take Aim: Re-roll 1's to hit with ranged weapons
Bring it Down: Re-roll 1's to hit with ranged weapons
Move Move Move!: When this unit advances, it advances 6" instead of D6"
Ranked Fire!: When this unit fires Overwatch, it hits on 5's and 6's.
Forwards, for the Emperor!: This unit counts it's Rapid Fire weapons as Assault weapons [Rapid Fire 1 = Assault 1]
Fix Bayonets!: If this unit charges or was charged, it gains +1A

Tank Orders: Issued by Tank Commanders to <Regiment> LEMAN RUSS or HELLHOUND units [affects all vehicles in the squadron]
Pound Them!: Re-roll # of Shots
Take Aim!: Re-roll 1's to hit with ranged weapons
Full Throttle!: When this unit advances, it advances 6" instead of D6"
Strike and Shroud!: As Is
Defensive Fire!: Heavy Bolters, Multi Meltas, and Plasma Cannons hit on Overwatch on 5+.
Overrun Them!: If this unit charges or was charged, it gains WS4+

Artillery Orders: Issued by Masters of Ordnance, Salamanders, and Sentinels [also, add a foot CHARACTER unit called "Forward Observers"] to <Regiment> BASILISK, WYVERN, MEDUSA, GRIFFON, COLOSSUS, and MANTICORE units [affects all guns in the battery].
Destructive Bombardment: Artillery Unit ignores line of effect with it's main guns.
Smoke Bombardment: Select a friendly or enemy unit for each gun in the battery, ignoring LoS, selected units gets -1 to hit and -1 to be hit.
Pinning Bombardment: Artillery unit ignores line of effect. For each hit the battery scores, instead of resolving damage, reduce the targeted unit's movement by 1"
Starshell Flares: Artillery unit ignores line of effect. For each gun in the battery, select an enemy unit, that unit is hit by friendly units on their normal BS in shooting. A unit cannot be targeted by flares and smoke at the same time.


I'd also force Company and Platoon Commanders to take their Command Sections. There was precedent for Character units in the form of Celestine and her Minions [though they separate now]. Delete the ability of command sections to take heavy weapons or massed special weapons, so they artificially add 24 points to the Commander's cost but also add fighting ability.

Really, if I were re-do Guard, I'd bring back Platoons. That would effectively increase the cost of a CP battalion to somewhat higher than the cost of other factions' battalions, which still allowing Guard to bring it's own critical infantry mass in monoguard lists.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/24 18:42:01


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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