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Hey folks

So, I have the rules for the upcoming boxed game more or less done, except for putting together the stats for the characters and creatures. I've been toying with the idea of putting together optional special rules for Infamous Gangs, meaning everyone in your gang is a 100xp gang leader / hired gun, but I thought why not take it a step further and do the boxed game like that. But, the human characters would be an infamous gang, but the monsters would be a normal gang. Meaning it would be 4 tough heroes vs a horde of not-as-tough creatures. I'm thinking it would be a good format and an excuse to get more cool models in the boxed game.. and it would also work well for the next one that will focus on undead things like a herd of zombies

So, what would you rather see? A boxed game with 2 evenly matched standard gangs, or a heroes vs horde theme?

Awesome - the option I selected is the clear winner at 100% of the vote - whoo hoo!

The four heroes boxset can be used as another type of co-op or Dm versus other players, so I think it is a tad more flexible.

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking too.. for multiplayer games, you could have each player playing 1 hero and a GM of sorts controlling all of the baddies. Kind of RPGish.

Anyway though just to clarify, this is just for the boxed game alone.. the current skirmish game won't change at all.. you would be able to use the heroes in the boxed set as hired guns in your gangs, or use the monsters to start a beast pack instead of a human gang.

I voted heros vs monsters because of the RPG flavor it could have. I also like the idea of 2 standard gangs, because I am not a monster fan.

Now we need a blackwater gulch RPG! Great idea! (I am only mostly serious).

Heres my take on it...what are you trying to achieve?

If you are trying to introduce new players to BWG, and get them into the regular BWG skirmish game, then go with 2 gangs, as thats the regular games format.

If you are just trying to make a cool stand alone game that serves as a mild step into the BWG world, but not a full intro to the skirmish game, then the gang vs monsters would be fine.

IMO the format should fit the mission.

What I'm after is an intro to BWG, but not a standalone game. It's geared at new players as a starter set, to get them into the game and the game world.

And for the current game, it will introduce new rules for skinwalkers and other folklore creatures, rules for artillery, engineers, monster hunters and new weapons. Plus 2 different types of gangs, standard gangs and infamous gangs where everyone in the gang is a 100xp model.

So that's when I started thinking it might be fun to mix the 2 types of gangs in the starter set. Both for the 2 kinds of gangs but also for the amount of models in the set. I'd like it to be a good value with lots of figures, but just 2 5-man starter gangs just doesn't feel like enough. So I thought turning it into heroes vs horde would give us the opportunity to have a lot more cool minis in the box.

 Necros wrote:
What I'm after is an intro to BWG, but not a standalone game. It's geared at new players as a starter set, to get them into the game and the game world.

In that case I would go with 2 gangs. While the other format does have its merits, it doesnt exactly set the normal scene of the game, and might give people the wrong impression of the game as a whole. Id even go as far as saying that 2 boxed games might be the way to go. Id do the double gang "intro" style box first, then later release the gang vs monsters game.

Well it looks like most folks are in favor of keeping it gang vs gang so far.. I'll keep the poll going since I'm still curious anyway but for right now I'll keep things as is I would have only made the change if it was overwelmingly in favor. But anyway, the heroes vs monsters kind of game mode will still be in the rules, this is just more about the contents of the boxed game. Maybe we'll do it like gang vs gang, but heroes vs monsters for the undead stuff?

But, the boxed game is going to still be humans vs monsters. A standard human gang with monster hunter leader, and an evenly matched skinwalker pack. The plan was going to be 2 5-man gangs and 4 12" square tiles.. we could expand that and maybe do 8 man gangs and 6 tiles? I also want to include some terrain, probably just some obstacles like barrels & crates and fences and that sort of thing.

I never got in on your kickstarter, But decided today to lurk abit here abit to see what I could learn about this game.

But I feel I need to say this.
Evenly matched gangs vs a hoard of monsters is kinda like apples to oranges. It counts on what your goal for the box game is.

If you want to intro the game as a competive game, then evenly matched is the best.
If you want to intro people to the different game mechanics and play styles of the game as a tool to teach people how to play the game, than hoard vs. elite is the best hands down.

As someone who doesn't know alot about what this game is about, I would prefer hoard vs. elite, for the reasons I stated.

Hmm .. good points. It is the latter I'm trying to achieve, since the boxed game is a starter set and meant to bring new blood into the game. At the same time, I want it to be a good value and something that the vets will enjoy too. I think I'm gonna be on the fence for a while

This whole idea started thanks to a new game I'm trying to get a greenlight for next year, that would be a licensed IP from a video game. It will have the same game rules and the theme would be like the elite vs horde version, so I thought it would also work real well for the new BWG boxed game too. And it could work for normal humans too not just monsters, you could have a couple of infamous outlaws fighting off a lynch mob of angry townsfolk for example. There was a player that did a game like that at a shop for national tabletop day that went real well.

 Necros wrote:
Hmm .. good points. It is the latter I'm trying to achieve, since the boxed game is a starter set and meant to bring new blood into the game. At the same time, I want it to be a good value and something that the vets will enjoy too. I think I'm gonna be on the fence for a while

This whole idea started thanks to a new game I'm trying to get a greenlight for next year, that would be a licensed IP from a video game. It will have the same game rules and the theme would be like the elite vs horde version, so I thought it would also work real well for the new BWG boxed game too. And it could work for normal humans too not just monsters, you could have a couple of infamous outlaws fighting off a lynch mob of angry townsfolk for example. There was a player that did a game like that at a shop for national tabletop day that went real well.

Maby a balance approach is what you need.

You want the two sides as diffrent as possible, but you still want to try and keep it evenly matched idealy. That way you get the best of both worlds.

Thow that involes play testing the two forces in you starter box to make sure people can have a fair game out of the box.
*I.E. Avoid how GW always give the loyalist marines a single unit that the "bad guys" in the box has no way of killing.*

That won't be happening Even if you do elite vs normal, as long as the Fame level of both gangs is the same, it'll be balanced. So, if we have 5 infamous guys with 600 fame, we make a standard gang of 600 fame for the enemies, and that be like 8 or 9 weaker guys. So I guess it's not really a horde in the warhammer sense, just a few extra models.

One thing I would consider doing is having a few alternate cards for some of the models so that you can play it with either scenario. As long as any cost increase of doing so doesn't significantly affect the price point.

half and half now

adding a few extra cards wouldn't really add much to the cost at all. But that might be confusing for new players, if there were 2 versions of the same character or model.

So now I'm thinking.. we could do both? So the box would come with 5 Infamous characters, 2 professionals and 2 henchmen. The beasts would get 1 Alpha, 3 Skinwalkers and and 6 minions/evil henchmen altogether.

If you want to play a small game, you use 4 tiles and play with a 5 man gang lead by any Infamous character, the 2 professionals and 2 henchmen, and the beasts would be the 1 alpha, 2 skinwalkers and 2 minions. Or if you want the epic game, you play all 5 infamous characters vs all the monsters with all 6 tiles.

Or would it be confusing having 2 different game modes like that, or would people be disappointed that they can't use every single human model together?

Do both, not that confusing at all, it is a convention that has been done in other games, and there are a number of boardgames that do similar things.

Still half & half but, it looks like the Heros vs Horde is going to be the winner. Seems to be enough interest in the format, and also talking to the publisher and it's what they really want to do and they are paying all the bills. But don't worry, the original game won't change, and there will still be plenty of normal gangs added to the game in the future too.

Just had an idea though. Well, I re-had the idea since I was planning this at first .. How about making Curse of the Skinwalker a separate game, instead of an expansion? Compatible, but separate? So, we keep "Gangfights in the Old West" as the hollywood-historical gang vs gang game and "Curse of the Skinwalker" as the Heroes vs Horde game.

You could use hero models from Curse in your Gangfight gangs as hired guns, or you could make a standard gang of skinwalkers too. But, any new human gang releases would get the old gangfights branding and monsters & monster hunter heroes would get the other. So it's 2 separate games that are fully compatible, I guess kind of like how Privateer has Warmachine & Hordes.

And possibly changing the name as well, to include all monstery things, not just Skinwalkers? Like Blackwater Guch: Bandlands & Beasts? something like that? I think that might have too many B's...

Another thought ... trying to plan out the future list and other back-end things like that so we can really start moving forward with the development. Mostly thinking aloud here, as usual...

Separate from the boxed game, additional heroes would be sold solo, individually like we are doing with Hired Guns now. We already have a bunch of gang starter sets, so we'll eventually do gang support packs that have 1 professional and 2 henchmen. Depending on how the funding goes, we may me able to have the heroes be 2 models, 1 on foot and the other on a horse.

For the beasts, Monsters and Alpha were-things would be sold solo. But, instead of a support pack like humans, we would have Fiends also sold solo. An alpha will be a bigger model, so those would cost a little more. Fiends would be your average 30mm sized figure, they would be normal skinwalkers and some other creatures. Then, we would do 3-model packs of minion creatures and human henchmen. The henchmen could be used by a human gang, or they could be recently cursed men who will become skinwalkers soon, but they don't have any special powers.

At first I was strugling with what to include if we were to do a skinwalker support pack.. like would they get 2 henchmen? 2 minions? 1 of each? And then what creatures would work best? So I think having Fiends be packaged separately will be easier.

But for the minion packs, would it be better to do 3 different creatures? Or would you rather see 2 or 3 of the same creature, but each with a different pose? So instead of Minion Pack 1, 2, 4 and infinity, you'd have the Chupacabra Minion Pack, etc...

Or would you rather see support packs with a Skinwalkers after all? Maybe something like a Were-sabertooth-cat with 2 Cactus Cats? A Werewolf with 2 Chupacabras? Then we would still have a couple of henchmen packs, that could be used by humans or beasts.

I like your last idea.... one fiend model packaged with two minion models of the same "species."

If you decide not to go that route, I think you could sell sets with 2-3 sculpts of a single species.

That's pretty much the industry standard, whether you're GW or Wyrd, or Reaper. I've never seen a company sell more than one troop type in a single blister.

I can see the argument for variety, but it would be a pain in the butt if you wanted to buy one species but then had to buy other, unrelated models just because they were packaged together.

Yeah, that will probably be the best bet. At first I was trying to include henchmen in with the skinwalkers, and it just didn't feel right. So this way we can make a few henchmen packs that folks can add to regular gangs or beast packs too.

We're not doing blisters though, so I think that's throwing me off a little too.. everything will be a box set, that's how Game Salute wants to do it. Looks better in the shops that way I guess So the 1 and 3 man packs will be a small box about the size of a deck of cards.. and 5-man boxes will stay the same size as now

The 1-3 man boxes sound like a great alternative to traditional blister packs, and will likely look nicer on the shelves.

I prefer the two evenly matched gangs; outlaws and lawmen would be a good starter I think. I think it would be easier to get someone else to try it with that setup.

That was actually the original plan.. I was going to do just a basic bundled starter set with the Clancy Gang and Vigilance Committee plus a rulebook as a generic starter set, the Skinwalker expansion was going to just be a new book and a bunch of models.. but my publisher wants to go the "boxed game" route and has from the beginning.. so we decided we're going to make that the them.. cowboys vs monsters. So that's why I made the format poll.. gang vs gang works great for human vs human, but for the full boxed game I thought the infamous heroes vs a horde of monsters kind of theme would be more fun.. and the other standard gangs will still work too. At the end of the day, as long as both gang's XP / Fame ratings are the same the game will still be balanced and fun

So, just been thinking it might be best to introduce new race rules or abilities. Lately I've been struggling with how to handle the names of things to make it easier.. First the skinwalkers were going to be "Supernatural Packs" then "Beast Packs" and back and forth a few times. So I think what I'm just going to do now is keep it simpler.. So we get..

Humans - Leader's Luck rule and access to all weapons & artillery, has professions for different abilities. Gangs made up of Infamous characters, professionals and henchmen. Any infamous character can lead a gang.

Skinwalkers - Supernatural (gets Run & Gun for free), primitive weapons, animal aspects instead of professions. Gangs made up of Monsters, Fiends and Minions, but may also take human henchmen. Any monster can lead a gang.

Undead will be the eventual 3rd race that will also be supernatural and be made up of Vampire elders & abominations (frankenstein) for the tough guys, followed by regular vamps & ghouls for professional level, and zombies or human henchmen for the cannon fodder. Vamps would also get bloodlines for special abilities.. or would that be too white-wolfy? Only vamp elders can lead gangs, abominations are like monsters but not smart enough to lead. Abominations are allowed to yell "FIRE BAD" if someone brings a burning bottle of booze to a gangfight.

Much later, we'll have the cave & gold mine dwelling Shonokins who I plan to make like goblins. Just starting to read some of those myths so I don't know much about it yet, but I'd imagine we'd do a boxed game for them that would be slightly different and make it like a Space Hulk or Descent format, with all the same rules though and you could still play them in the standard skirmish game too. that'll be a long way off though. I think we'd be lucky if we can do 1 new boxed game per year, it takes so long to make stuff.


I want to try and define everything though, so it's easy to do some crossovers. Like the Traveling Zarconis I've been thinking of allowing them to take minion models, as circus freak monsters. And eventually there will also be a human character, Dr. Morose who has a skinwalker pet and Dr. Franklin Stein who has an abomination pet. So I'd word the rules like "If Dr. Morose joins your gang, you may include 1 Skinwalker model in place of a Professional. If Dr. Morose leads your gang, you may include up to 2 Skinwalkers."

Vamps would also get bloodlines for special abilities.. or would that be too white-wolfy?

Nah. I say go for it.

Still looking forward to a gang of Día de Muertos Skeletons led by Santa Muerte.

Have you ever thought of doing "undead" versions of existing characters? You could take some of your gang leaders and hired guns and re-do them as "Vampire" or "Zombie" versions. They would have the same stats as the original version, but use their supernatural ability in place of the profession ability.

The more the merrier.

In fact the weirder the better!

I'm WAY more into this version of the game than a straight up Old Time West game.

Weird Wild West all the way!

I think we'll be able to accommodate both types of settings depending on the player... if you want a wild west game you just play with human gangs, and we'll still be making lots of new regular cowboys and stuff. if you want weird west you play with monsters

I thought about maybe doing some of the old characters as skinwalker or undead versions. I was kind of afraid skeletons would feel too out of place, but lately I've been seeing some old Indian skeleton stories. Maybe they can be zombies that decomposed too much so there's not too much meat left?

What I was thinking of doing is something like... you get bit by a vamp and you die, but the venom from their bite can reanimate your corpse to a certain degree. Some people stay dead because the vamp bit too hard. Most people don't turn all the way, and they're the ones that become zombies... they just wander around in herds and they get the Pack Hunter rule where each extra model in melee combat with you gives you a bonus to your attack. Ghouls would be zombies that can think more for themselves, and are the "runner" zombies.. they get the Charge! skill for free. The lucky few that actually turn into a real vamp and get a skill based on their bloodline. And the really old ones become elders and can extend their bloodline powers to all other undead models in the gang. Don't think I'm gonna do any kind of vamp clan wars or anything.. we'll see. I still want it to be a western at heart. Though it would give new meaning to a blood feud...

Only thought up 3 kinds of bloodlines so far, no names for them yet, but you'll have the ugly bald kind with pointy ears and long pointy fangs for their front teeth. Then the vicious "30 days of night" kind that have a whole mouth full of fangs and like to rip people to shreds. And then there's the snooty Anne rice kind that's like the classy rich folks, they have the normal kind of vamp fangs that are shorter and farther back.. they're the ones that mingle with humans the most. Going for more of a Gary Oldman's Dracula kind of feel for them, not the Tom Cruise & Brad Pitt pretty boy kind.

anyway that's the gist of it so far

Well, if every vampire bite resulted in a new vampire, the world would rapidly be overwhelmed... exponential reproduction is what we have zombies for. Anyway, most authors dodge the issue by invoking some kind of ritual to create a new vampire a la Anne Rice, to avoid the problem of a vampire population explosion. You could come up with something similar... Say someone killed by a vampire bite becomes a lesser "slave" undead, while creating a new independent vampire requires some kind of evil ritual.

Oops .. yeah that's what I meant, not any bite, more like if you were bitten and died right after. I was thinking it would be like becoming a zombie is the most common, and a real vampire is actually very rare, but the older the biter is the better a chance of becoming one. Vamps won't go around turning people willy-nilly because the zombie outbreaks will destroy their food source, but sometimes the younger, wilder ones are irresponsible and things get out of hand if they're not careful.

Was thinking they would still do it like a ritual sort of thing, but the ones they turn on purpose are usually human henchmen that have been working for the coven for years

Another way the setting is similar to "30 Days of Night". You could say the reason the undead are suddenly appearing in Blackwater Gulch is because the young irresponsible vampires are going off the rails and overpopulating the region with all manner of undead.