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I had seen some one the other day posting about khorne bezerker helmets asking where the idea of them came from or some thing like that. Some one said he thought he came from conan the barbarian, but i couldn't find any thing to confirm that. Any way so some one said some thing roughly like GW stole or rather do not have many orginal ideas in this thread. So i don't actaully have a clue, but i seem to think its unlikely this is true and most of GW stuff is orginal and there own stuff they have come up with alone etc. Like for e.g Races like eldar and others are some thing that i always see as very unique and cool looking and i cant think of any other sci fi that has had any thing like that. This goes for most other things too like space marines etc, mabey not so much orcs but every fantasy universe has orcs so thats fine lol. Any way so if some one can dispute this guys claim and tell me who the real orginators of this universe is that would be cool.


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So was this person mis informed about 40k?


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or was he right.


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mostly.

The way I look at it, everything is based off something else. That's not a bad thing, it's just how it works. So they have original parts about them, but you can always find something similar to something before it.

I voted half right because it was me I was talking about the helms specifically and if you check that thread again you will see the pics i posted clearly showing the inspiration GW took from Conan, practically the entire chaos warrior range was taken straight out of Conan, and Sigmar is heavily based on Conan, well at least until the legend books where they fleshed out his story.

As for chaos space marines, they took influence from warriors of chaos which pre date them, this was before the legions even really existed as we know them and their story was fleshed out.


On how original 40k is, its not very original in some areas and very original in others, it takes tropes from other sci fi and fantasy and gives it a 40k twist, if you boil it right down to its basics and over simplify it like this

Imperium: Dune
Space marines: Many many influences, too many to count.
Chaos: HP lovecraft, paradise lost and again many many others
Eldar: Elves from tolkeins work, they are even called the eldar race
Orks: Orcs
Tyranids: mix of Locusts, dinosaurs and Aliens
Tau: Gundam and other Asian anime and again, many tropes

I am sure you get the idea.

The answer is: It's complicated.


When 40K was first created, GW basically took their Fantasy game and put it into space, complete with all of the (borrowed from popular high fantasy) usual Orcs, Elves, Halflings, Beastmen, Trolls, Ogres, Demons and all the rest, and a setting largely lifted from Dune and 2000 AD.

Through Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, they used popular culture as an inspiration source for a lot of the additions to the game. Aliens, Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Terminator, to name just a few, were all plundered for ideas.

From 3rd edition onwards, the pop references started to fade into the background, some of the less-used fantasy archetypes went away, and GW started taking steps to separate the game from its fantasy roots and also to send the background material in its own direction.


So the complete answer would be: Yes, the current setting includes a lot of original stuff, but the framework it is sitting on is shamelessly pillaged from any number of sources with varying amounts of work done to conceal this fact.

The legal answer (according to GW's previous head of IP) is that everything GW makes comes entirely from the heads of their designers with no outside influences of any kind, and you should pay no attention whatsoever to Sly Marbo, we don't even sell him anymore, I have no idea what model you're even talking about...

I said half right.

Even with most of the individual pieces being lifted from other sources and IP's, much of it initially was done in parody.

In addition the sum of 40K's fluff is how those parts all combined, which at the time was relatively unique, if only on scale.

40K? Original?AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...ok, that was mean, and I apologise.


but seriously though. I'm going to have to agree with the other person. So much of 40k is borrowed from other media and literature.

Eldar are based on Elves from the Lord of the Rings
Orks are based on fantasy Orks as you mentioned.
Ogryn and Ratlings are based on Fantasy Ogres and Half-lings/Hobbits, respectively.
Daemons are pretty obviously based on Fantasy demons, which in turn are based on Demons from Abrahamic religions.
Tyranids, or at least Genestealers, are based on the Aliens in the franchise of the same name.
Tau borrow a lot from Asian cultures, and aesthetically borrow some from anime like Gundam
Guard are based on various historical soldiers from different countries/time periods. Catachan are based on US troops from the Vietnam War as well as 80's action movies. Cadians are a blend of Starship Troopers and Colonial Marines from Aliens.
I believe there was some fiction regarding genetically altered supersoldiers before 40k came out.

The entire premise is a blend of Dune, Abrahamic religions, fascism from the 1930's and 40's, Starship Troopers, Conan, Tolkien in some areas, and a bunch of other stuff I need to think hard on in order to list.

I guess in summary, 40k hardly has any original ideas, but instead finds a way to blend a bunch of different ideas together into a (ok not really) cohesive story and universe.

Edit: Too slow! Read posts above.

 Formosa wrote:
I voted half right because it was me I was talking about the helms specifically and if you check that thread again you will see the pics i posted clearly showing the inspiration GW took from Conan, practically the entire chaos warrior range was taken straight out of Conan, and Sigmar is heavily based on Conan, well at least until the legend books where they fleshed out his story.

As for chaos space marines, they took influence from warriors of chaos which pre date them, this was before the legions even really existed as we know them and their story was fleshed out.


On how original 40k is, its not very original in some areas and very original in others, it takes tropes from other sci fi and fantasy and gives it a 40k twist, if you boil it right down to its basics and over simplify it like this

Imperium: Dune
Space marines: Many many influences, too many to count.
Chaos: HP lovecraft, paradise lost and again many many others
Eldar: Elves from tolkeins work, they are even called the eldar race
Orks: Orcs
Tyranids: mix of Locusts, dinosaurs and Aliens
Tau: Gundam and other Asian anime and again, many tropes

I am sure you get the idea.

I get it but i still dont see any reason why you think conan is related to it lol, i mean mabey its just me.


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i cant see


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 insaniak wrote:
The answer is: It's complicated.


When 40K was first created, GW basically took their Fantasy game and put it into space, complete with all of the (borrowed from popular high fantasy) usual Orcs, Elves, Halflings, Beastmen, Trolls, Ogres, Demons and all the rest, and a setting largely lifted from Dune and 2000 AD.

Through Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, they used popular culture as an inspiration source for a lot of the additions to the game. Aliens, Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Terminator, to name just a few, were all plundered for ideas.

From 3rd edition onwards, the pop references started to fade into the background, some of the less-used fantasy archetypes went away, and GW started taking steps to separate the game from its fantasy roots and also to send the background material in its own direction.


So the complete answer would be: Yes, the current setting includes a lot of original stuff, but the framework it is sitting on is shamelessly pillaged from any number of sources with varying amounts of work done to conceal this fact.

The legal answer (according to GW's previous head of IP) is that everything GW makes comes entirely from the heads of their designers with no outside influences of any kind, and you should pay no attention whatsoever to Sly Marbo, we don't even sell him anymore, I have no idea what model you're even talking about...

Yeah well i guess with humans creating fantasy over thousands of years things have been refined to a universally accepted thought of what makes sence and what doesn't and i guess you could say its even possible we are creating what is actauly out there some where in another galaxy subconsciously with out knowing it. WHOOO KNOWWSSSS so many possiblitys


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Arcanis161 wrote:
40K? Original?AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...ok, that was mean, and I apologise.


but seriously though. I'm going to have to agree with the other person. So much of 40k is borrowed from other media and literature.

Eldar are based on Elves from the Lord of the Rings
Orks are based on fantasy Orks as you mentioned.
Ogryn and Ratlings are based on Fantasy Ogres and Half-lings/Hobbits, respectively.
Daemons are pretty obviously based on Fantasy demons, which in turn are based on Demons from Abrahamic religions.
Tyranids, or at least Genestealers, are based on the Aliens in the franchise of the same name.
Tau borrow a lot from Asian cultures, and aesthetically borrow some from anime like Gundam
Guard are based on various historical soldiers from different countries/time periods. Catachan are based on US troops from the Vietnam War as well as 80's action movies. Cadians are a blend of Starship Troopers and Colonial Marines from Aliens.
I believe there was some fiction regarding genetically altered supersoldiers before 40k came out.

The entire premise is a blend of Dune, Abrahamic religions, fascism from the 1930's and 40's, Starship Troopers, Conan, Tolkien in some areas, and a bunch of other stuff I need to think hard on in order to list.

I guess in summary, 40k hardly has any original ideas, but instead finds a way to blend a bunch of different ideas together into a (ok not really) cohesive story and universe.

Edit: Too slow! Read posts above.

you have to be the person i am referring to in my OP lol

Storm it was me mate, did you even read my post lol, Arcarnis didn’t mention the Conan thing, I get you can’t see it but I must ask why? It’s clear as day the influence is there, so much so you could literally take the Conan story, drop it into warhammer fantasy and everything would fit perfectly.

To go a bit more literal when these things were rolled out.

40K is a sci fi of their Fantasy....they may hate that, but it is what it is.

Imperium/Guard : The Empire
Space Marines : Bretonnian Knights
Squats: Dwarves
Chaos: Chaos
Eldar: High Elves
Exodites: Wood Elves
Dark Eldar: Dark Elves
Orks : Orcs
Ratlings: Halflings
Ogryns: Ogres

This was the original base....then popular culture added these:

Tyranids: they fill the role of the endless Skaven (Alien franchise)
Necrons: they fill the role of The Undead (Terminator franchise)
Tau: I don't know...Slann/Lizardmen in reverse (Gundamu warrior anime)

We all pretty much play this game because of the rich history. But as said, all science, math and art are built and drawn from earlier influences....so does GW's 40K exemplify this....it is well crafted.....and that is why it is popular.

It was WFB with elements of dune and the foundation series by Asimov.

40k has grown over decades due to an interested, creative fan base. Hundreds of peolle have contributed to it in various ways, some big, some small. Itcs like star trek, a shared universe that has grown from an idea created by a few peolle. Accept it for that.

 Formosa wrote:
Storm it was me mate, did you even read my post lol, Arcarnis didn’t mention the Conan thing, I get you can’t see it but I must ask why? It’s clear as day the influence is there, so much so you could literally take the Conan story, drop it into warhammer fantasy and everything would fit perfectly.

no because only the top portion is similar in the way its pointed outwards, but the overall similaritys are too stark if you think of how many different helmets there have been with shapes on the top.


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khorne broadens out so much at the bottom, and its not a animal of any kind, only thing same is that little top part pointing in same direction, i just dont think thats enough to say its the same, mabey im wrong.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
It was WFB with elements of dune and the foundation series by Asimov.

40k has grown over decades due to an interested, creative fan base. Hundreds of peolle have contributed to it in various ways, some big, some small. Itcs like star trek, a shared universe that has grown from an idea created by a few peolle. Accept it for that.

I'm unclear how the universe (rather than the game/model sales) has grown due to the fan base, or how hundreds have contributed.
It's the work of a small handful in the studio, though the roster has shifted over the years.

I'd say much the same about star trek, especially these days, when they're just regurgitating storylines and making an effort to take many star trek elements out in favor of more mindless space battles and fx.


in regards to the poll... yeah. Blatantly. Warhamsters in space + the standard sci-fantasy offerings.

Voss wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
It was WFB with elements of dune and the foundation series by Asimov.

40k has grown over decades due to an interested, creative fan base. Hundreds of peolle have contributed to it in various ways, some big, some small. Itcs like star trek, a shared universe that has grown from an idea created by a few peolle. Accept it for that.

I'm unclear how the universe (rather than the game/model sales) has grown due to the fan base, or how hundreds have contributed.
It's the work of a small handful in the studio, though the roster has shifted over the years.

I'd say much the same about star trek, especially these days, when they're just regurgitating storylines and making an effort to take many star trek elements out in favor of more mindless space battles and fx.


in regards to the poll... yeah. Blatantly. Warhamsters in space + the standard sci-fantasy offerings.

Letters and later emails to gw, fan theories, suggestions, requests, fanfic, etc. It all filters to gw staff eventually.

The moral of the "Simpsons did it" South Park might help sum up how this is.

A bunch of stuff is a reference to a bunch of stuff.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm it was me mate, did you even read my post lol, Arcarnis didn’t mention the Conan thing, I get you can’t see it but I must ask why? It’s clear as day the influence is there, so much so you could literally take the Conan story, drop it into warhammer fantasy and everything would fit perfectly.

no because only the top portion is similar in the way its pointed outwards, but the overall similaritys are too stark if you think of how many different helmets there have been with shapes on the top.


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khorne broadens out so much at the bottom, and its not a animal of any kind, only thing same is that little top part pointing in same direction, i just dont think thats enough to say its the same, mabey im wrong.

Inspired by, not direct copy of, just take a look.

It is not original, 40k borrows much from literature, myths and history and twist it. Like Game of Thrones. I think it is not bad thing.

Like Council of Nikaea.

It is very unique in that it's a multi layered tribute to the fantasy and sci-fi that preceded it. The tributes/influences/inspirations are so many and varied now that it's become entirely it's own thing.

At what point does inspiration become theft? Warhammer in its current incarnation is far more original that rogue trader was, but at the same time, every story is just an endless number of tropes put together in a sort of unique way.

Gw stole the helmet design
Gw stole the idea of elves and just put them in space
Gw stole the idea of energy based weapons
Gw stole the idea of a space empire
Gw stole the idea of a protagonist and characters

At what point is taking from another story bad or acceptable? Stealing a hat design may be a reference, or a disgraceful theft of ideas. Making elves are okay ususlly even if you are ripping from the lord of the rings. Where do we draw the line? I'm of the opinion that it doesn't actually matter. All that matters is if the new story or setting is well executed. Nothing is original.

Individual elements may be taken from other works, but that's nothing special. The end result, though? That's its own thing.

Tolkein. 'Plundered' western European folklore, and mashed it all together into a single, gloriously well realised world.

In a sense, very little of that was original (apart from tinkly kind Elves...)

2000AD - much the same. Mish-mash of various tropes and influences, including reinterpretations of previous comics, some even by the same creators.

40k - Mish-mash of various tropes and influences. All hammered together and polished over the years into an instantly recognisable 'own thing'.

Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.

There are only seven stories that can ever be written.

Overcoming the Monster
Definition: The protagonist sets out to defeat an antagonistic force (often evil) which threatens the protagonist and/or protagonist's homeland.

Rags to Riches
Definition: The poor protagonist acquires power, wealth, and/or a mate, loses it all and gains it back, growing as a person as a result.

The Quest
Definition: The protagonist and companions set out to acquire an important object or to get to a location. They face temptations and other obstacles along the way.

Voyage and Return
Definition: The protagonist goes to a strange land and, after overcoming the threats it poses to them, they return with experience.

Comedy
Definition: Light and humorous character with a happy or cheerful ending; a dramatic work in which the central motif is the triumph over adverse circumstance, resulting in a successful or happy conclusion.[3] Booker makes sure to stress that comedy is more than humor. It refers to a pattern where the conflict becomes more and more confusing, but is at last made plain in a single clarifying event. The majority of romance films fall into this category.

Tragedy
Definition: The protagonist's character flaw or great mistake which is their undoing. Their unfortunate end evokes pity at their folly and the fall of a fundamentally good character.

Rebirth
Definition: An event forces the main character to change their ways and often become a better person.

Art and design have similar boundries.

There can only be so many ideas. Everything is influenced by something. There are no original ideas. What is original is the interpretation of those ideas, ideas grow and evolve.

I think Workshop do a fantastic job at their interpretation of what they design. There are fluffs sometimes as with any universe. Look at the books by Tolkien post LotR and WoW's Panda's.

What Workshop do really well better than any other is making the whole galaxy feel alive and full of lore. It's a world set in the future yet we can all pretty much imagine exactly how things from that world would look in ours today. To achieve that is special.

Practically everything within 40k has been based on an idea from somewhere else, or at the very least, heavily influenced by it. The overall universe however feels like a unique entity of it's own, the sum of all the parts equalling more than the total (think I got that quote slightly wrong but you get the idea)

A lot of the space marines concepts (and the arbites) were inspired by 2000AD judge dredd. Such as the "land raider" combat vehicle and the marine bikers with guns on them.

Everything derives from something else - even many original ideas people have can be subconscious connections of already existing things. Also don't forget its very possible for more than one person to use the same original source and derive the same or similar, inspired original idea. So GW might appear to have lifted inspiration from something, but in actuality both the creators were inspired by something else entirely and simply landed on a similar derived concept.

Of course in my day we tied Sprouts to our belts to remind us of things, which was the style at the time...

Most of GW's stuff is pulled from either Tolkien, pulp stuff like Howard or Lovecraft, and sci-fi circa 1950's-70's, with Moorcock being a especially strong influence ie High/Dark Elfs and Eldar always struck me as more Melniboné than Tolkein tree huggers

If people cant back up badly non-researched statements feel free to go to town on them

Eh...sort of.
Its not original in the sense that Warhammer (of all flavors) is highly derivative and takes inspiration from...well, everything. I don't feel like going through it all, but if you dig around you'll find that they were busy copying all sorts of stuff in the 80s and 90s.

It is original in the sense that they took all these derivations and mashed them all together to create a unique and distinctive IP. Which is just beautiful, really.

Almost everything in 40K is directive, with the only real inspiration is trying to make a setting with all of it in it.

Some of it just keeps coming from current pop culture, and what its looking at and some of it changes with shifting perceptions.

Also some of it was clearing inspired by guys sitting their playing with some Fantasy battle stuff and wanting to do a mashup.

 Formosa wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm it was me mate, did you even read my post lol, Arcarnis didn’t mention the Conan thing, I get you can’t see it but I must ask why? It’s clear as day the influence is there, so much so you could literally take the Conan story, drop it into warhammer fantasy and everything would fit perfectly.

no because only the top portion is similar in the way its pointed outwards, but the overall similaritys are too stark if you think of how many different helmets there have been with shapes on the top.


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khorne broadens out so much at the bottom, and its not a animal of any kind, only thing same is that little top part pointing in same direction, i just dont think thats enough to say its the same, mabey im wrong.

Inspired by, not direct copy of, just take a look.

All im saying is theres no enough similarites for you to say that, so many helmets have been designed over hundreds of years with all sorts of shapes, and heaps of them could have inspired that idea. You could make the comparison more easily with you pictures if mabey it was FLAT not a round snake, and also if it broadened out at the bottom instead of just one width


Looking at this body armour you could easily get that idea


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So only thing thats similar is top parts pointing outwards, nothing else, so therefore you cant claim they took it from there


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Anyalsis of this thread has come to this conclusion - No one knows really.


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I take that back, i mean no one knows for sure this or that because as you guys say, we all get our ideas from other people other thounands of years etc.

Thanks

 Stux wrote:
Everything creative is inspired by, borrowed from, or based on other things to one degree or another. It's mostly about how these elements are combined or recreated in new ways.

It's not about where those individual elements came from reqlly, it's more about the whole. And that I feel is pretty unique and original in 40k.

But doesn't GW claim that they have the sole ownership of words, or stuff like swords and not just specific designes, but all swords made for models of the scale etc?

You could make the comparison more easily with you pictures if mabey it was FLAT not a round snake, and also if it broadened out at the bottom instead of just one width

But isn't the look like that just because it would have been to hard or costly to cast the models that way?

It's a world set in the future yet we can all pretty much imagine exactly how things from that world would look in ours today

Well that is because the copied actually existing political systems and just put them in space. They even left some names the same, so we have commisars in IG etc.