Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

The Reserves rule on page 84 of the rulebook says: "Units in reserve are not deployed at the start of the battle, but will become available in later turns. Each selection from the Force Organization chart is diced for separately at the start of the players turn. Reserve unit arrives on: Turn 1 (N/A), Turn 2 (4+), Turn 3 (3+), Turn 4+ (2+). When a reserve unit arrives it must move on as specified in the Reserves section of the mission description."

And: "Note: You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available. You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!"

 

QUESTION: How do you play the timing of the Reserve rolls at the start of the turn and the subsequent Reserves movement?

 

OPTION A. At the start of the turn I make Reserves rolls for all units in Reserve. I then move each Reserve unit that arrived onto the table before any units that started the turn on the table are allowed to move.

OPTION B. The closest to RAW: At the start of the turn I roll for one unit in Reserve and, if it successfully arrives, I immediately move it onto the table (before any units that started the turn on the table are allowed to move). I then repeat this process for all units in Reserve.

OPTION C. At the start of the turn I make Reserves rolls for all units in Reserve. I may then move the units that successfully arrived onto the table at any point during the movement phase, not necessarily before moving units that started the turn on the table.

OPTION D. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

You know, I am pretty sure that RAW supports option B the most, I personally don't know a single person who plays it that way.

Sal.

I also have not seen anyone do it via option A. I have not had this reflected as an issue though, unless LOS and some other issues being polled currently.

I always go B. I expected to have a lot more company, a majority even. *shrug*

I too always roll then place, roll then place. I do this process with reserves, demonic summoning and deepstriking. It just seems most fair.

Darrian

Funny, i always rolled them all at once. That way i knew who was coming on before i placed any deep strikers or reserves.

perhaps that is an unfair advantage, and not in compliance with the rules.

However, the rule states only that the units must be diced for seperately, not that they must be placed separately.

Yes, but they also say:

You may not delay making the dice rolls or keep the reserves hanging around off-table until you decide you need them!

I voted B.  Getting to know how many reserves are entering play and then deciding in what order to bring them on in is information that a player isn't suppose to have.  People don't like it because its harder to decide and place one unit at a time, and riskier, but that's what it actually says.

I believe A) is RAW also...It's the way I play.

Seperately could just mean seperate colord dice rolled at the same time, as opposed to one die roll that handles all units in reserve at once.

I play A, but I poitn at each unit I am summoning/deepstriking as I roll a single die, it's the same as rolling all the dice at once but easier to keep track of. (I believe all rolling at the beginning of the turn shoud happen at the same time, just like WBB rolls). I also play that if two units deepstrike on the same spot both are removed (I am the only multiple deepstriker in my area that doesn't use pods so that only hurts me). This also doesn't really give me any sort of advantage personally although I see it could because I plan a round or two ahead on who I want to try to toast before I even make my rolls.

I believe that is meant to imply that you can not choose to not roll the dice and by doing so intentionally keep a unit in reserve.

I think that it is well within RAW to simply roll for all units in reserve at the beggining of the turn and then place them after that is accomplished. that way all movement takes place at the same time.

This poll is a lot closer than the other ones.

I allow people to put reserves on the board at any time during the movement phase. They roll for them all at once. Ie, roll, yes, roll, yes, roll, no, roll, no. Ok these two go on the board (sometime during my movement phase).

I play A but if someone ask me to do it unit by unit I will do it or I may ask another player to do it if I think it may have a big impact on the game. I play A to speed up the game because you normally roll and checked the unit on your list then deploy them.

The key quote supporting option B is:
"And must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available."


I think this is meant only to prevent players from holding units back. My view is that they are not available until the movement phase. No one can do any moving until the movement phase. At the nebulous "start of the turn" you dice for each choice, and the ones that succeed become available in the movement phase.

It's impossible to say which ruling is any closer to RAW or closer to valid, because there are no specifics on what "Available" means. When do they become available exactly?

I play option A because that's just the way I do it. Technically I don't think there's anything requiring you to do it this way and I wouldn't balk if someone wanted to move them on later in the movement phase. So I guess I should have voted C (Sorry).

I think it's pretty illogical to say "There is a hidden phase at the beginning of the game where you can move, but this phase isn't specified anywhere."

This question is so far from conclusive I would never try to make a raw argument to force someone's hand. It needs to be FAQ'd.

I picked C. I've always just as soon as my Reserves enter play they are under my control just like any other unit of mine and I can place them and move them as I like. Never had a problem with it from another player.

A - its the way we've always played it (maybe a hangover from 3rd ed) and ive never met anyone whos played it the option B or C ways.

People nitpick about

1) You may not delay making the dice rolls...

and

2) And must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available.


You can't focus on one or the other, you must do both.
2 cannot be accomplished before 1, and 1 has no meaning without 2.

So, if you roll all reserves at the exact same time (That's right! One flick o' the wrist people!) and then place all of your successful rolls at the exact same time (That's a bit more difficult, my hands are only so big...) the result is "ROLL, PLACE", which is much easier to approximate with "ROLL, place, place, place".

Theoretically, when you make the big ROLL, you must watch for when each individual die stops moving and the moment it does place that unit while the others continue to tumble. Be quick though, cause you must place the next as soon as its die stops moving, etc...

Pretty soon, marine are flying across the table and none of them are standing upright.
Makes for a hectic few seconds, but speeds up the game.

That's an interesting way of looking at it Loki. I like your justification for rolling all the dice together. Not sure how I feel about moving things before the movement phase though. Even summoned demons don't do that, and they arrive out of reserves or similar.

I actually think option B is the one closest to RAW, the rules state that you roll at the beginning of your turn, this therefore takes precedence over your movement in the movement phase. At the beginning of your turn (during movement phase) you must IMMEDIATELY roll for each member in reserves, should they make it in, they are immediately placed onto the table. Option A allows for you to roll all your resreves and then start placement before movement occurs. This is incorrect via the rules, because of this rule "You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto the table as soon as they are available"

AS SOON AS THEY ARE AVAILABLE, means after you roll the requiste requirement to bring a unit from resereves to the table. Thus if you roll a couple 1's and then a 4 that unit that got the four immediately becomes available. Thus forcing you to deploy that unit, then continue to roll for Reserves.

Additionally option C is incorrect, you can't allow your other units to move during this time period, not because of a "secret phase" before movement, reserve rolls happen during the movement phase. The reason you can' tmove around other units is because of this, "Each selection from the Force Organization chart is diced for separately at the start of the players turn. Reserve unit arrives on: Turn 1 (N/A), Turn 2 (4+), Turn 3 (3+), Turn 4+ (2+)".

In conjunction with the other rule stated above, as soon as a unit becomes available it goes onto the board. THUS if you have to roll at the beginning of the turn, you are prohibited from making other actions in your movement phase until you have rolled all your reserve units. Moving around while also deploying reserve units is not supposed to occur as per RAW. Simply look to the rules stated, the controlling statement is Diced for at the start of the players turn, and, as soon as they are available they are deployed. In those two controlling statements the only option left is B.

You have to roll each unit individually, when they become available, deploy, and then keep rolling until all reserves are done. Then you are allowed to move your other units (because you are no longer at the start of your turn, and you have finished the reserve special rule). That DOES NOT mean that they become available, your other units can putter around, and then you can deploy your reserves rolls.

FURTHER JUSTIFICATION
I guess you can think of it like this, in certain final fantasy games you have the ability to take pre-emptive action, these abilities happened during a fight, but before anything else occured the keyed up pre-emptive action took place. For example, pre-empt materia with a summoning matera would at the start of battle summon a monster and then normal battle would resume. The reserves rule is much the same. At the start of turn two you have to take a pre-emptive action at the start of your turn before anything else occurs (thats what start of the turn means). It does not mean that you are outside of the movement phase, or somehow outside of the normal turn phase order, but instead you are taking an action pre-emptively before the rest of your other units can act.

I voted for option B, with the key wording "at the start of the turn". The turn only has one start, and that when I roll the dice.

I voted A. You can easily roll for all of them at once if you want, and the beginning of the turn is still the beginning of the turn. I think ?you can?t delay moving them on? is intended to forbid waiting until next turn, but I read the text strictly enough to believe that the units in reserve should move on/DS/summon before the units already on the table move. This is also in accord with the ?err on the side of the less powerful option?, as it prevents summoned or teleporting units from extending their threat range because they have to come in before the units holding the icons or teleport homers move.

Option B. It's just easier to roll for everything quickly and then start placing units.

BYE

I've done it like Options A and B. Playing a Word Bearers army, I found option B just took a lot more extra time, although it did change how I was setting up my reserves slightly. I wouldn't force anyone to play it by Option B if they don't want to. I don't think it is back breaking by any means.

I prefer B, but often play A. B fits the "least advantageous interpretation" (meta?)rule better, but A (to me, at least) is conceptually simpler, faster, and less prone to operator error, so I often see A played anyway.

Option A is the best.

I roll for all my reserves in order of type (The order of type isnt important, as long as all types are rolled for simultaneously)

I.E. Roll for all deepstrikers, then roll for all drop pods, the roll for all summoning, then roll for all reserves to come in on table edge. Mix and match the order to taste.

I then place the models for each respective type.

I then roll for possible scatter on the deepstrikers/podder/summoning (resolving each one as I roll)

I then place reserve units on table edage.

At this point, Movement phase now proceeds as normal in the rules.

Honestly, I don't think it really matters as long as you roll, and your guys show up before anyone else moves. I know I have advocated A, but that is really slow, admitedly, and there doesn't seem to be a harm in rolling to see what comes in first then deploying stuff.

I think the reason B is most appropriate is so as to disallow knowing all of whats comming; kinda like chess maneuvers. I know i'd much rather my obliterators be in hte cover than my land raider, so if i want my oblits there i roll for them first, without knowing when or where my LR would go. i might actually have to put my LR there if my oblits don't show, but i just have to wait and see.

Tactical advantages nullified. Even playfield.

There's a flip side to that Thunderkiss.

Sure, you don't know what else will make it on the board when you roll and place the first reserve unit. But, when you roll and place the second, you now know exactly where the first was placed and can now compensate for the first unit's scatter, something which should be impossible if the units are arriving at the same time.

Tactical advantage gained.

I voted A. I think that while B is closest to RAW, rolling for all of the units in reserve before stopping to deploy them just makes the game flow a little faster.

CK

I have two deepstriking amries and i have to say that, without a doubt, it is an advantage to know which units are coming on before placing anything. I have always played it that way and so have all of my opponants. With my airborne IG, i roll for each platoon and then depending on how those roles go, i use my davanced comms to reroll one of them to either try to keep them off board or bring them in. and when you are deepstriking 10+ units, it just makes things go faster to roll for them all at once and then place them, then move other units as neccesary.

The only things that i could see to discredit this would be the statement, as soon as they are available. while i would say that this was meant to imply that they all must roll every turn and be placed before normal movement takes place, it is rather vaue. But i still do not feel that it is a compelling enough argument to say that rolling for all deppstrikers/reserves then placing is illegal.

Our reading of it is that the Reserves rolls happen first, then the Movement phase. The intent of not holding off rolling AND not holding back units seems to imply that you MUST roll when you can, and that they MUST move onto the playfield that turn (not some turn later).