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2012/11/11 03:55:17
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
This is Part II of my Chaos-Tyranid test battles. The first battle (battle report here) between the 2 armies was so disappointing that a rematch was in order. The purpose of these battles is to test out how viable are the new Chaos Space Marines and moreover, how competitive they can be. Thus, in their first battle, I pitted my Epidemius-Nurgle Chaos Marines against what I feel to be a strong army - my tyranids.
For this battle, I've changed up my Chaos list. I've gone with what I feel is a more "balanced" Epidemius-Chaos build. Instead of taking only cultists from the CSM codex, I will be running a more balanced mix of plague marines and cultists. I've also gone up to 2500 for this test game so that I can try out more things. For my bugs, I've expanded them into what I feel would be a very competitive tyranid army, adding another flyrant and troop tervigon/termagants.
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
Daemon Prince - 3+, Unholy Might, Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Breath of Chaos
That looks like a far nastier Chaos list, I really wouldn't want to call this one. I think the Nid's psychic rolls are going to be a massive factor in this game.
The Tyranids list looks great, but KPs makes things tricky... Kill Point games take away a lot of Nids advantages, so I predict this will be a very tough game either way. If Epi can stay protected it will be much tougher.
2012/11/11 09:06:37
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II
Chaos Space Marines: This is how an Epidemius-Typhus list works. Assuming Epidemius comes in, there are 2 ways to get the Tally up. The first is to shoot down the tyranid gribblies - gargoyles and termagants. Oblits will focus mainly on the big guys, though initially they may help with the small guys as well. If you start killing the small guys, the Tally will go up quite fast.
The second way to get the Tally up, and this is the cheesy way to do it, is to assault your own quad-gun. Typhus will be attached to cultists. They then assault the quad-guns and pack it in as nice and tight as they can. Then instead of attacking, Typhus uses his Destroyer Hive special ability, which will kill both friends and foes. This is almost guaranteed to get your Tally up very quickly. As a matter of fact, if you combine the 2, you should be able to kill 20+ models in just 1 turn.
This time, the Chaos list is much more well-rounded. It's got a lot of scoring units for objectives games. It's got tough-to-kill units for VP games. It's got decent shooting and better resiliency in the fearless plague bearers who can potentially have 3+ FNP. It's got 9 oblits who, thanks to assault cannons, are now truly all-purpose units who can take on mech, monstrous creatures and hordes as well. Finally, it's got a Daemon Prince because I wanted to show off my new model. No, but seriously, the DP provides some mobility to an otherwise very slow army and will be used to threaten the backfield units.
But more importantly, with 1 game under my belt, I am now a veteran Chaos player. I jest, but I have truly learned something from the last game. I believe that Chaos should be able to put up a good fight. As a matter of fact, given the right conditions, Chaos may even be able to win this game.
Tyranids: The tyranid list is truly a monster. You've got the Swarmlord who, thanks to his bone sabres, will bypass all enemy FNP saves as well as forcing them to re-roll any successful saves. There is nothing in the Chaos army that can beat him in close-combat, so their best bet is to tie him up with zombies. You've got 3 tervigons who would truly be a terror in objectives-based missions. Fortunately for Chaos, we are playing Victory Points. Then you've got the dual flyrants. Chaos really don't have an answer to flyers/flying monstrous creatures so the flyrants should have almost free reign to kill whoever they like. Finally, you've got all those awesome tyranid Biomancy powers. While Iron Arm is not as effective in this game due to Chaos possessing poisoned weapons and Noxious Touch, Endurance and Enfeeble will be the main go-to powers. 2 applications of Enfeeble on any Nurgle unit and you can basically ignore their FNP with the flyrant twin-linked devourers. That makes tyranid psychic powers very good against Nurgle marines.
Tyranids are also a little wiser now. Last game, I made the mistake of getting my gargoyles into shooting range. This time, you can be sure the strategy is to deny chaos any easy targets that will raise the Tally count. That means the only targets that they will have initially will be the ultra-resilient big guys. Fortunately, tyranids are going first so will have time to cast their psychic powers as well as to try to get into cover. But denial isn't the only strategy the bugs will employ. They will also attempt the following:
1. Kill off Epidemius as early as possible.
2. Kill off the quad-gun if possible to prevent Typhus from assaulting it and using his Destroyer Hive.
3. Kill off the cultists with biovores.
Both armies have gained valuable experience from their last encounter. Victory points may give Chaos a slight advantage because it will discourage the bugs from spawning too many termagants. Also, bugs have slightly more VP's in their army than Chaos, though some of those VP's will be damn hard for Chaos to get. However, the bugs going first is a huge advantage for them. They will have time to cast their psychic powers. They can also try to stop the Tally count very early on. I believe the key to victory will depend on what the bugs can do on its first turn. If they have a decent turn of shooting, it could be a very uphill battle for Chaos once again.
DISCLAIMER: Due to my rather small and limited Chaos Space Marine collection at the moment, there will be some proxying in this game. If you are really sensitive to battle reports with a lot of count-as models, then you may want to skip this battle. But if you want to find just how hardcore the new Chaos Space Marines can be, then definitely stick around.
Ok, now that I've got that out of the way, I want to address a rules issue. Namely, can non-daemonic Chaos Space Marine Nurgle units benefit from Noxious Touch given by the Tally? In the first game, I played it as yes, they can, based mainly on RAI (rules-as-intended). In this game, I am going to reverse my decision and play it as no. Why the sudden reversal?
1. Having every Nurgle unit - whether daemons or CSM - wounding on 2's (and ignoring armour saves) is borderline broken. It is just too strong.
2. When there is controversy with a rule, I tend to go either with pure RAW (rules-as-written) or the more conservative intepretation. Besides, I would hate for someone to take this list (or a variation of it) to a tournament with certain expections, only to be told by the TO (tournament organizers) that it is wrong and that they can't do it. Better to have lower expectations and get a pleasant surprise than to have high expectations just to get shot down when a ruling doesn't go your way.
3. This is how the Tally works if you're talking about pure RAW. But if your opponent disagrees with the pure RAW, then hey, you're in better shape.
Map of the terrain, with the Chaos Aegis Defense Line deployed.
Now the Tyranid psychic powers:
Tyranids take all Biomancy powers:
Swarmlord: Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Endurance, Hemorrhage
Flyrant #1: Endurance, Hemorrhage
Flyrant #2: Life Leech, Hemorrhage
Doom: Smite
Tervigon #1 (w/Claws): Iron Arm, Endurance, Hemorrhage
Tervigon #2: Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Life Leech
Tervigon #3 (Carnifex proxy): Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Hemorrhage
While it's good that I've got Iron Arm on most of my important units, however, Iron Arm isn't going to do much good against Nurgle poisoned weapons. What I needed in this battle was more Endurances and Enfeebles. Moreover, flyrant #2's powers are, for the most part, pretty useless. Against any other army, these powers would be great. But against Nurgle Chaos, they are very mediocre.
Tyranid deployment to the right (from the Chaos perspective).
And to the left. I leave all my termagants in reserves.
Chaos deployment to the right.
And to the left.
Overview of deployment.
Tyranid deployment from the perspective of the forces of Chaos.
They then seize the initiative!!! Mother - !!!
Tyranids have both flyrants out in the open with no cover! Talk about getting caught with your pants down!!!
Epidemius comes in. However, he scatters forwards and to the right.
Nurglings scatter towards the bugs as well.
Chaos movement to the left.
And to the right.
Right plagues (with meltas) then run forwards.
2 units of oblits focus-fire and finish off the right flyrant. Somehow, chaos causes 1W to a tervigon.
The left flyrant gets lucky and survives a volley of lascannons and plasmas from left oblits and plasma-plague marines.
Note: There are some questions to the legality of the move that I am about to perform so please talk it over with your opponent beforehand to come up to an agreement.
Typhus and unit assault the quad-guns.
He then uses his Destroyer Hive (which can hurt both foes and friends).
The ability kills a total of 7 cultists, bringing the Tally for this turn up to 8 (7 cultists and 1 flyrant).
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
Considering that they got the initiative stolen, the bugs aren't in too bad of a shape. They have only lost 1 flyrant to the Chaos surprise attack. However, that flyrant was a big part of the tyranid attack strategy. Now with little mobility and just 1 flyrant, the obliterators are going to have a field day.
Left tervigon spawns 13 termagants and both units go after the plaguebearers. Gargoyles actually move back and follow them.
In hindsight, I should not have spawned the gants just yet. This just creates more easy targets for the Tally. Then again, I was taking a gamble that a concentrated effort by biovores and termagant shooting followed by an assault by the tervigon and termagants might possibly wipe out Epidemius and the plaguebearers.
Tyranid movement. It is fortunate for the bugs that the scarabs scattered forwards (about 10"). Now they are in assault range of the flyrant and tervigons (about 7-9" away). If bugs can pull this move off, it would net them extra movement for the big guys as well as probably protect them from 1 turn of shooting by Chaos. However, tervigons do have to make a fairly long charge so assault is not necessarily guaranteed for them.
Due to bad scattering by both units of biovores, the biovores and termagant shooting only manage to kill 7 plaguebearers (and 1 plague marine!).
Nurglings lose 5 bases (with 1 more base taking 2W) to 2 tervigon cluster spine direct hits and the flyrant's twin-linked devourers.
Swarmlord runs to try to get some cover from the obelisk terrain.
Both tervigons then make their assault! (The right tervigon was about 10" away!). TMC's (Tyranid monstrous creatures) smash in order not to wipe out the entire unit.
Flyrant actually takes another wound (1W remaining), though the bugs wipe out all but 1 nurgling base.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2. So far, Tally count for Chaos is at 8. For this turn, all plagueswords are wounding on 3+.
Daemon Prince comes in, ready to use Breath on the gants all bunched up. However, he scatters away from them and nearly mishaps.
Chaos advance.
Zombies go to screen out. Oblits get ready to take out the BBB (Big Boss Bug).
Oblits fire plasma cannons this turn. 1 oblit takes 1W to Get's Hot.
After 8 plasma cannon shots (1 oblit did not have LOS) of which almost all hit, Swarmy is lucky to be still standing with just 1W left (BTW, he is at T7 currently due to Iron Arm). His tyrant guard is killed as are 2 hive guards.
Tally Count: 11
Chaos: 2, Tyranids: 0
Both units of zombies fail to make the charge, getting merely 3" and 2" charges respectively.
Plaguebearers charge the gants, who counter-attack.
They kill 8 gants and lose only 2 plaguebearers.
Tally Count: 19
Finally, the flyrant and tervigons wipe out the last nurgling.
Chaos: 2, Tyranids: 1
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
The Doom comes in.
Tervigon perils and fails to cast Warp Speed.
Tervigons go after the plague marines. One tervigon spawns 13 gants and the other 11 gants....no doubles.
Flyrant goes after the oblits. BTW, he fails to cast Endurance this turn.
Gargoyles go after the plague marines as well.
Tyranid strategy this turn is to tie up the zombies and oblits and kill the plague marines.
Every unit makes their Leadership test against the Doom's Spirit Leech.
Flyrant shoots down 1 oblit.
Gants and biovores take down 10 zombies with their shooting. Hive guards and the tervgion takes out 2 plague marines.
Gargoyles only manage to shoot down 1 plague marine.
Finally, onto assault. Flyrant gets killed by Overwatch assault cannons!!!
Tally Count: 20
Chaos: 3, Tyranids: 1
There are a number of assaults this turn (almost everyone but the Swarmlord and tyranid shooty units):
Left tervigon smashes 2 plaguemarines and takes 1W of damage in return. Zombies and Typhus kill 9 termagants.
Tally Count: 20+
The plague marine champion challenges the right tervigon and does 1W before getting squished. Termagants kill 4 zombies and lose 1 in return.
Gargoyles lose 2 but kill 3 plague marines.
Finally, the tervigon challenges Epidemius, who declines. He then goes on to kill 2 plaguebearers, who kill 2 gants in return.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Right now, the Tally is already maxed out. That means: all daemon units are wounding on 2+, all FNP saves are now at 3+ (except the zombies, who are not Nurgle units) and all attacks - both shooting and close combat - ignore armour saves (again, with the exception of the zombies). Moreover, most of the forces of Chaos are in close-combat which is where they want to be.
Tyranid movement. Once again, oblits are going to try to to take out the BBB.
Right oblits and melta-plagues advance.
DP goes after the right tervigon (in combat with Epidemius' unit).
Right oblits have a clear LOS to the biovores and shoot them down.
Chaos: 4, Tyranids: 1
4 oblits fire lascannons at the Swarmlord but are unable to kill him (2 misses, 1 cover made, 1 FNP made).
Plague marines fail to insta-pop the mycetic spore, though they do put 2W on it with bolters.
Big Ugly joins into combat.
He kills the tervigon (5 wounds!!!) and the explosion takes out the gants in combat with Epidemius.
Chaos: 6, Tyranids: 1
Gargoyles finish off the lone plague marine.
Chaos: 6, Tyranids: 2
As does the crushing claw tervigon.
Chaos: 6, Tyranids: 3
Typhus finish off his gants.
Chaos: 7, Tyranids: 3
Termagants win this combat 5-2.
However, the right tervigon gets killed by the plague marines. The ensuing explosion takes out 5 gants.
Chaos: 8, Tyranids: 3
Overall, a very good turn for Chaos and a very brutal one for the bugs.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Swarmy advances. He is in trouble. He has nowhere to hide and will have to make about a 10" assault.
The last tervigon spawns another 12 gants and goes after the oblits.
Gargoyles go after the oblits and plague marines. BTW, Chaos has made every single LD test against the Doom so far.
Biovores fire at Epidemiu's unit. They only take out 1 plaguebearer as well as 1W to the DP.
Termagants shoot down 1 oblit.
Swarmy makes the assault (rolled 11")! Termagants assault the other oblits. 1 dies to Overwatch.
Gargoyles only charge the oblits. 1 dies to Overwatch. BTW, they have Prefered Enemy from the Swarmlord. The Doom charges the plague marines.
Gargoyles do 1W and lose 4.
Gants lose 2.
Other termagants finish off the zombies, though there are only 3 gants remaining. Swarmy kills off the oblits.
Chaos: 8, Tyranids: 5
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
Daemons go after the 2 units of gants that came in from reserves.
From my experience, Typhus vs tervigon usually equates to a dead Typhus and possibly a dead tervigon as well. So before that happens, Typhus is going to kill some hive guards first.
Big Fatty takes out 4 gants with Breath.
Being out of synapse, they then run off the board.
Chaos: 9, Tyranids: 5
Oblits kill some more gants.
Gargoyles kill 1 obliterator. The Doom kills off 1 plague marine but loses 2W in the process.
Typhus, who is about 7" away, fails his charge against the hive guards.
Finally, Epidemius' unit assault the termagants.
They win combat and the gants run off the board again.
Chaos: 10, Tyranids: 5
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Tervigon spawns 16 gants and run out. Swarmy goes after Typhus.
Hive guards move.
Gants shoot down 5 zombies.
Fortunately for the cultists, gants fail to make the charge (they only get 2").
Swarmy assaults and easily kills Typhus.
Chaos: 10, Tyranids: 6
Gargoyles and Doom both lose their battles by 2. BTW, Chaos has passed every single LD test against the Doom so far.
Gants lose another 3 to the oblits.
Chaos 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
DP swoops 24". There are some vulnerable hive guards and biovores just waiting to get slaughtered.
In the Shooting phase, Spirit Leech kills off the 3 plagues locked in combat with the Doom as well as 1 in another plague unit.
Chaos: 10, Tyranids: 7
Only 1 gant left in combat.
Gargoyles are going to lose this battle of attrition.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Tyranid movement.
The Doom kills another 2 plague marines and put 1W on an oblit with Spirit Leech. He would, however, fail his psychic test for Smite against the plague marines.
Gants wipe out the 3 zombies.
Chaos: 10, Tyranids: 8
Biovores kill another plaguebearer.
Doom then assaults the lone plague marine, who was Enfeebled by Swarmy.
A Swarmlord with Endurance charges into the oblits. BTW, he did not make 1 single It Will Not Die regeneration roll the entire game.
Swarmy whiffs and manages only to kill 1 oblit. The oblits kill the lone termagant. The other oblit makes his save against Swarmy's bonesabres, though I forgot about the re-rolling successful saves.
Chaos: 11, Tyranids: 8
Lone plague marine survives against the Doom's S8 attacks. 1 gargoyle also survives the obliterators.
I roll to see if the game continues and the result is a . Game over.
Bugs have Linebreaker and Warlord. Chaos has First Blood (flyrant) and Linebreaker. Chaos takes it 12-9 in a close and bloody battle.
Chaos Space Marines: Stealing the initiative was huge. While the damage Chaos did after stealing wasn't huge (just killed 1 model), what they killed was hugely significant. Just the lost of 1 flyrant made it much easier to deal with the bugs - only 1 flying monstrous creature (FMC) to deal with rather than 2. Also, playing Epidemius much more conservatively here paid off. I was still slightly aggressive with them, but I at least tried to deepstrike them out of LOS (they then scattered forwards anyways). But when you go with a large squad of plaguebearers, they are meant to be an integral part of the offense. Otherwise, just go with a min-sized 5-man bearer unit if all you want to do is to hide them.
Zombies did as they were expected to do - mainly to draw some fire and then die (in a non-objectives mission). If they had lived, I would have been disappointed.
Plague marines wasn't spectacular, but they did their job. They killed 1 tervigon and the spore and tied up the Doom for a couple of turns.
Typhus never does well against the bugs. Every game I've had against Typhus (with my bugs), they've killed him. However, he was responsible for getting the Tally up early and quickly (with a tactic that you will not see again from me).
Plaguebearers died as they were meant to. Another cannon fodder unit, only this one had some teeth once the Tally went up. Epidemius was Epidemius. Without him, the playstyle of this list changes drastically.
The Daemon Prince was pretty boss this game. He was responsible for a Tervigon and unit of Termagants. Had the game continued, he would have gone on to kill more stuff.
Finally, we have the oblits. IMO, they were the MVP of the Chaos army. They killed both flyrants (the other flyrant probably would have died in assault had it not died to illegal Overwatch shooting mainly because he was charging through terrain), the tyrant guard, several gants and a unit of biovores. They also killed some hive guards, reduced Swarmy down to just 1W left (should have killed him) and almost finished off the gargoyles (just 1 gargoyle left). More importantly, they were a deadly thorn that affected how the bugs played. It was mainly because of them that the termagants had to spawn more termagants (and thus Victory Points) in order to survive.
I believe this game shows that, under the right conditions, an Epidemius-Chaos Space Marine build can be quite effective. They can compete against foot-lists. Now the test will be to see how they deal with mech armies.
Tyranids: The bugs made a few mistakes that contributed to their downfall this game (I don't count the flyrant-Overwatch snafu, which is not a tactical mistake but a rules mistake):
1. Deployment. Should have prepared for a steal-the-initiative scenario. Should have hid the flyrants behind cover just in case the initiative was seized. With their 24" swoop, they can still threaten the forces of Chaos with assault on Turn 2.
2. The far-right tervigon should not have spawned gants to deal with Epidemius' unit. Those gants only served to increase the Tally that much more quickly. Just the tervigon himself would have slowly eaten through that unit over time. Of course this doesn't include the Daemon Prince that would have charged in to help out. Actually, it would have been a better idea not to charge Epi's unit at all. Just move away and blast him again next turn with the biovores.
3. Spawning gants to assault Typhus' unit. Typhus just made a mess of the gants to help max out the Tally. He is a great infantry killer. Should have just let him assault the tervigons.
Other than that, I thought that this would be a tough matchup for Chaos. While Chaos have poisoned weaponry, TMC smash attacks will bypass both their armour and FNP saves. The strategy of denial should have worked against the Epi-list, however, I made the mistake of spawning gants against Epi's and Typhus' units, thus making it easier for them to get the Tally up. Overall, it was a learning experience for the bugs this game and against this type of opponent.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2012/11/13 16:00:42
I know the 'assaulting your own gun' tactic has been discussed at length, with almost unanimous agreement that it can be done (I was one of them), however a good friend of mine pointed out a few things. The Quad Gun is a neutral unit that can be attacked in close combat. However in the assault rules it says you can only charge enemy units, thus since the gun is not an enemy unit, the only way to possibly charge it is to multi-assault with an enemy unit as the primary target, otherwise there's no legal way to charge it; the whole issue was based on a faulty premise that if it can attacked it can be charged. It's interesting.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I know the 'assaulting your own gun' tactic has been discussed at length, with almost unanimous agreement that it can be done (I was one of them), however a good friend of mine pointed out a few things. The Quad Gun is a neutral unit that can be attacked in close combat. However in the assault rules it says you can only charge enemy units, thus since the gun is not an enemy unit, the only way to possibly charge it is to multi-assault with an enemy unit as the primary target, otherwise there's no legal way to charge it; the whole issue was based on a faulty premise that if it can attacked it can be charged. It's interesting.
Hmmmm...interesting. I will have to look into this.
Cool report as usual. I think the Chaos list would be better without the gimmick to up the tally. Ditch the fodder cultists for more fast moving attack units like bikes or heldrakes, you can still nurgle mark the bikes and play a tally list I just don't think you need to up the tally with a questionable tactic when you could do it with straight killing. You could even replace Typhus and the Zombies with a Nurgle Lord and some CSM with MoN in a big block or two for tarpitting, that way you have all Nurgle marked units to further up the tally legally.
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters
2012/11/12 21:24:54
Subject: Re:Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
BladeWalker wrote: Cool report as usual. I think the Chaos list would be better without the gimmick to up the tally. Ditch the fodder cultists for more fast moving attack units like bikes or heldrakes, you can still nurgle mark the bikes and play a tally list I just don't think you need to up the tally with a questionable tactic when you could do it with straight killing. You could even replace Typhus and the Zombies with a Nurgle Lord and some CSM with MoN in a big block or two for tarpitting, that way you have all Nurgle marked units to further up the tally legally.
Yeah, in the future, I am going to ditch this tactic. I don't want to rely on a tactic that is questionable. However, I still think that the ADL and quad-guns can still benefit my Nurgle marines and so will probably continue using those. It provides cover for my primarily foot list and the quad-guns for what very weak anti-air I have.
The fodder cultists, however, is immeasurably important to any Chaos list. Basically, my list isn't very strong in assault. It relies more on anti-assault tactics - tarpitting/screening with the cultists against the beefier enemy assault units - thus buying time for my guys to shoot down the enemy. They are also a very cheap and durable objective-holder when you need them to be. My list WILL NOT work without the cultists. The plague marines can be swapped out, but I need at least 1 unit (and preferably 2 or more) of cultists.
Heldrakes I will be using. They are just too good not to. As a matter of fact, my next battle will include them (at the expense of my daemon allies). Next up for my Epidemius-chaos....a fully meched-up GK army.
I just think kill points is always going to be an uphill struggle for a Nid list, far to many soft kill points. Other than that, great report as always!
Nice batrep as usual JY2 and finally a concrete test of this famous tally list.
May however ask you a couple of things about your nids?
- does you maybe had forget the third troop of Gants? I must had missed them during the battle..
- does you consider Adrenal Glands on Tervigons (and consequentely on Gants) something really not important? I do think that some reroll would generally help in assault, even if in this particular batrep not particulary useful of course.
- what are your general thought about the Doom after some batrep? In particular, considering his potential effectiveness, does is really worth to exchange Cataclysm for a Biomancy power on him?
- Do you eventually return on more "competitive" (talking about synergy) Zoanthropes unit?
Every molecule will be useful
6000+ pts NIDS
() 2000 pts growing to 4000...
2012/11/13 10:04:29
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
Also why don't people iron arm chaos lords and daemon princes? Surely an iron armed deamon prince will eat pretty much anything alive with i8-9 depending on mark and both toughness 8-9 depending on the mark and strength 9 assuming you are lucky, or iron arm with multiple units? Plus a 3+ 4++ (upgrades) and 4 wounds that seems pretty like a pretty good match for about anything out to me, unless im missing something huge, which I probably am.
So I don't have the tyranid codex, I'm not rich enough to buy every single codex, and we only have 1 bug player and he keeps his book close to him because we hae some pretty dodgey people where I live, or he just is an ass and doesn't want people to know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/13 10:24:16
2012/11/13 10:28:00
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
I may describe it to you without givin' stats or particular characteristics..
You know what Boneswords are? Well it does have 4 of them. It generate an Inv. save in some situations. It's better and pricier than a regular Tyrant. It's a "unique" character so no upgrades on him. It's a melee moster and consequentely a very effective fire magnet in every Nid's list. It's a force multiplier .
Ask to your Nid's player friend. I don't think he would be so patetic not letting you to give a look at the codex but even in this case just ask him the stats face to face..
Even better, play a game against him. You will discover all the characteristics of this model turn by turn. Definitively a nice model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/13 10:38:27
Every molecule will be useful
6000+ pts NIDS
() 2000 pts growing to 4000...
2012/11/13 11:17:57
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
Nemesor wrote: Also why don't people iron arm chaos lords and daemon princes? Surely an iron armed deamon prince will eat pretty much anything alive with i8-9 depending on mark and both toughness 8-9 depending on the mark and strength 9 assuming you are lucky, or iron arm with multiple units? Plus a 3+ 4++ (upgrades) and 4 wounds that seems pretty like a pretty good match for about anything out to me, unless im missing something huge, which I probably am.
So I don't have the tyranid codex, I'm not rich enough to buy every single codex, and we only have 1 bug player and he keeps his book close to him because we hae some pretty dodgey people where I live, or he just is an ass and doesn't want people to know.
God I really hope this is the last time I have to point this next sentence out but here it goes...
CSMDPs dont get marks...ever. They also cant get a 4++. Iron Arm only targets the psyker so you cant multiple cast it and you cant cast it on a Lord. Finally no one tries to iron arm a DP because it requires a 75 point investment just to get 1/3 of a chance of rolling iron arm. You only get two rolls as you have to roll for one of the dumb chaos powers.
Also if you aren't resourceful enough to find codex PDFs, unplug your PC and find a rock to live under. And please dont use lack of funds as an excuse we all know this hobby costs an arm and a leg, it's not like we're all blessed with trust funds here.
2012/11/13 11:24:07
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
Tarrasq wrote:
..unplug your PC and find a rock to live under..
and we have a winner!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/13 12:51:13
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2012/11/13 12:53:27
Subject: Chaos-Tyranid Rematch! 2500 Epidemius-Nurgle Marines vs Hive Fleet Pandora Part II (Completed)
Yeah, the killing your own units to get the Tally up seems gamy at best. Add to that the question if units not chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons should even get to benefit from the Tally rule in the first place (I would be far from surprised if that gets FAQed), and the army list feels like its entire right of existence is to abuse loopholes in the rules.
The 'Nids did get some bad luck in the beginning; I'm sure that if the 2 Flyrants were Swooping around empowered with Psychic powers instead of being lost by a seized Initiative and a incorrect Overwatch, the game could have gone very different.
But very nice report, I always enjoy reading yours jy2! Looking forward to more 'Nid reports in general, as these are still pretty uncommon.
Nemesor wrote: Yessss! I called it! New. Question what the swarm lords starlike and special rules? I can't find it anywhere.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Great report as always. I'm not seeing why the CSM units wouldn't get Noxious Touch though.
They do get it. Problem is that, if you look in the description for Noxious Touch, by RAW, it specifically says that daemons benefit from it. Thus by RAW, daemon units from the CSM codex (DP's, obliterators, possessed, warp talons, etc.) get Noxious Touch and can use it because they are "daemons". Other nurgle units (mainly troops, bikers, havocs and other such units with the MoN) get it but can't use it because they aren't daemons.
It's basically the same issue with the grey knights last edition. The dreadknights have Nemesis Doomfists, but because they aren't "dreadnoughts" by RAW, they didn't benefit from it (their DCCW's).
Last game I played with RAI though...that non-daemon Nurgle units did benefit from Noxious Touch....but I think that makes them pretty darn OP. Thus, in my future games, I will go by RAW, which is the more conservative intepretation.
The Daemon Prince we painted up for you looked appropriately disgusting! Haha, glad you liked it.
Yeah, you guys did a great job on it.
I was thinking of throwing in both the DP and Papa Nurgle, but I think bringing both a CSMDP and a Chaos Daemons DP makes my army less effective. I'd do it though if I was playing in a more casual game, but for my competitive games (even the test ones), I tend to bring more optimized lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/13 21:35:51
jy2 wrote:They do get it. Problem is that, if you look in the description for Noxious Touch, by RAW, it specifically says that daemons benefit from it. Thus by RAW, daemon units from the CSM codex (DP's, obliterators, possessed, warp talons, etc.) get Noxious Touch and can use it because they are "daemons". Other nurgle units (mainly troops, bikers, havocs and other such units with the MoN) get it but can't use it because they aren't daemons.
Ah I get you; I doubt you were saying the tally wouldn't give it to them. Reading it now, I'd say you are right.
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