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2014/01/25 05:58:44
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Completed)
Ever since the new bugs came out, I've been curious about how competitive a 9-carnifex Tyranid build would do. I finally decided to do a test game. Now I've gone against Taudar a few times, but I haven't gone against pure Eldar yet. Since I also have a Eldar army laying around, I decided to do a test game with another very competitive army - mechdar! I think a good test for a competitive army is not by how well they can do against a normal army. Rather, it is by how well they can do against a top-tier tournament army and I can tell you, mechdar is truly a top-tier tournament army.
In this battle, I will actually be playing both armies. There are some pitfalls to doing this: 1) there will be no surprises as both armies will know what each other are going to do and 2) there are more chances for mistakes because now you have to know the rules as well as plan out the strategies for 2 armies instead of just 1. However, there are also advantages as well:
1) Convenience. I can play this out anytime. Don't need to schedule it with anyone.
2) Very few people in my area will have the exact army that I want to test my army out against. No one here runs pure Mechdar except for me.
3) I am a skilled general with both armies. So there will be no claims of "oh, that guy didn't know how to run his army" or "he played very poorly with his army". In this battle, skill will not be a factor (i.e. both "generals" will be equally good). Only the armies themselves and the dice will decide the game.
Ok, here are my thoughts about the 9-carnifex Tyranid list. It is NOT a competitive Tyranid build. Now don't get me wrong. Do not confuse not competitive to mean weak. Actually, it is a very strong Tyranid build. If the opponent's army isn't built to be able handle that many monstrous creatures, he will be overwhelmed. However, what I mean by not competitive is that it just is not a balanced army. It cannot handle a wide range of threats that most balanced Take-All-Comer's lists are designed to do. In essense, it is a deathstar-type list that will either pound you into submission if you don't have the tools to handle it or it will potentially lose big time if you do.
As for mechdar, it is currently one of the strongest and most balanced spam-lists around. It's got mad firepower and the mobility to easily get away from the bugs. The question here really is this: which is greater - Tyranid resiliency or Eldar firepower? In this case, getting 2 Catalysts for the flyrants will help immensely. That will greatly improve the Tyranid's chances in this matchup. As long as tyranids can survive against Eldar shooting, they will eventually catch those serpents and wreck them like no one else's business. However, that is the main question - can they survive long enough to make it into assault with the Eldar.
My hypothesis here is that mechdar should be able to win this one, but thanks to Catalyst and Dawn of War deployment, tyranids should be able to give them a scare before finally succumbing to their superior firepower.
Man, what I wouldn't give for some S7 brainleech devourers. Tyranids sure could use them this game.
See lists above for Psychic Powers and the Warlord traits.
Night-fight in effect.
Map of the terrain, with the bastion already placed.
The 2 orange chips are the Emperor's Will objectives.
Black chips are the Crusade objectives.
Tyranid deployment. All gants are in reserves.
Eldar split up their forces....
....and deploy in 2 opposite corners.
For Eldar, this is my strategy. I want to split up the Tyranid forces. That is how you play against certain deathstar-type lists. They have limited resources and most of them need to be together for the greatest effect. Split them up and now they are weaker without support from each other. Mechdar, on the other hand, works fine independently or together. That is why they are so good. They are just as effective either ways and have the mobility to easily change their deployment should they choose to.
Tyranids advance. Flyrants swoop 12". BTW, they would be casting Catalyst each and every turn.
Zoan embarks into the bastion.
In hindsight, without SMS around, it may be better just to hide him behind the bastion instead.
Carnifexes run.
Eldar 1
Spoiler:
Farseer would cast Forewarning + Prescience on 1 wraithknight (WK) and Guide on the other. He would do this every turn that he is able to.
Eldar then move.
On the Eldar right flank, the serpents split up.
One of the serpents then move flat-out into the Tyranid deployment zone.
Between poor serpent shield rolling and good Tyranid saves (and FNP's), the right carnifexes (from the Eldar perspective) only take 1W from Eldar shooting.
Then to the left, the carnifexes only take 2W to Eldar shooting.
Eldar only deal a total of 3 Wounds to the carnifexes. However, this is a great round for the Eldar. Why?
Both wraithknights shoot at the bastion....and they end up killing the zoanthrope inside with a S10 hit!!!
Say goodbye to Synapse!
That's why in hindsight, I should have just hidden the zoan behind the bastion like I normally do instead of putting him in it.
Eldar also get First Blood.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Damn, losing the zoanthrope is going to hurt.
4 squads of gants come in.
My Warlord perils while casting Catalyst, though it still goes off.
Tyranids charge forwards.
The Warlord, on the other hand, goes to give the left carnifexes some synapse coverage. Fortunately, he is also able to make it into the rear arc of the wave serpent.
Despite a 3+ cover save, the flyrant still manages to blow up the serpent with a penetrating shot. 1 dire avenger dies in the explosion.
Right carnifexes run.
Tyranids are forced to fire the flyrant and dakkafexes at the wave serpent and still are not able to put it down. The serpent made 6 out of 8 4+ cover saves!!!
Lastly, the gants run, though most of them get low run rolls.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
There is no where to run so the WK's prepare for assault.
Serpents spread out some more.
Dires go after the gants (without synapse). Well, actually 1 unit is within synapse range of the flyrant.
1 serpent fires and kills 1 whole carnifex just by itself! Of course, there is no FNP on this unit this turn, but I just flat-out rolled poorly for it, failing 4 out of 4 3+ saves.
Here, serpents combine to knock the flyrant from the sky and to put 3W on him.
But first, WK's shoot at the carnifexes, insta-killing 1 of them and putting 1W on the other.
Bugs catch a little bit of a break as only 1 WK makes the charge. The other one needed to make a 6" charge but failed with only a 4" charge move.
In combat, the carnifexes fare poorly. With re-rolls to hit, the WK kills 1 carnifex before it could strike. The other one then piles in but could not make it into base with the WK, thus effectively ending that round of combat.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Without Synapse, 2 units of gants break and fall back.
Carnifexes also fail synapse. Fortunately, they are just going to move towards the nearest enemy in order to try to assault it.
Due to the lack of synapse in the backfield, I decide to move my Warlord off the table only to have him come in next turn to rally my troops. So on his way off the table, he vector strikes and kills 3 dire avengers.
After casting Catalyst, flyrant swoops towards the wave serpents. If he's going to die, he's going to take one of those serpents with him.
Let's make this a 4-on-1.
Gants move and then shoot down the lone avenger.
Flyrant takes down the damaged serpent. The avengers spilling out then gets pinned.
Carnifexes have got this right?
Wrong. 16 S9 attacks....and they only do 2W to the WK! The WK makes something like 6-7 4++ saves!!!
My goodness! To play one of the best armies currently....and then have dice like that! First the serpent and now the WK making these types of saves?!? Wow!
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
Bugs catch a little break. One of the serpents immobilizes itself while trying to move out of terrain.
WK goes to help out the other WK, but not before the farseer cast Forewarning and Prescience on him.
Serpents spread out.
The other serpent moves away from the fexes. It then puts another 1W on the carnifexes.
Farseer gets away. He would later turbo-boost towards the middle.
As expected, serpents shoot down the flyrant.
WK then makes it into assault. Now its 4-on-2.
The battle ends in 1 dead WK and 2 dead carnifexes.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
The Warlord comes back in and rallies all the gants.
He then shoots at the serpent heading towards the Tyranid objective. However, the serpent makes both of its saves.
Last unit of gants come in as well.
Carnifexes fail IB once again and moves towards the immobilized serpent.
That is actually not what I wanted to do. I actually wanted to move them in the opposite direction....towards the objective where the other serpent was.
For the 2nd turn in a row, the carnifexes would fail their charge through difficult terrain.
Combat is a draw here.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
Serpent moves deeper into Tyranid territory.
Avengers make a move towards their Emperor's Will objective.
The far-right serpent goes after the gants to prevent them from reaching the objective.
Shooting by the serpents put a couple of wounds on the fexes.
Avengers run to make it onto their objectives.
Serpent shoots down 7 gants.
Finally, the far-right serpent shoots down 6 gants.
However, without synapse there, they break and fall back.
WK is winning this battle of attrition thanks to Prescience and 4++.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Overview of what could potentially be the last game turn.
Flyrant decides that it needs to take out the serpent. It gets ready to assault.
Gants scramble for the objectives.
Even after running, however, they are out of range of this objective.
At last, carnifexes should make it into assault.
Shooting from the flyrant takes off 2 Hull Points from the serpent.
He then assaults.....
....and kills only the 3rd wave serpent of the game. The unit inside gets pinned.
Well, make that 4 serpents.
Lastly, the WK finishes off the dakkafex and then consolidates 6" towards bug territory.
Eldar 5
Spoiler:
In a potentially game-winning move, the WK goes to both contest the Tyranid Emperor's Will objective and also to try to take out the Tyranid Warlord.
The Laughseer turbo-boosts to contest a Crusade objective.
Avengers and serpent will deal with the fexes. BTW, if you hadn't noticed, the avengers also form a screen to try to prevent the fexes from advancing towards the Eldar Emperor's Will objective.
Wave serpent drops off its troops onto a Crusade objective.
Shooting kills 1 carnifex.
The WK takes off another 2W from the flyrant with shooting.
Serpent shoots down 5 gants to make sure they are not grabbing the objective.
The WK then charges in.
With Prescience, 4++ and T8, it is just too much for the 1W flyrant to deal with. WK takes out the flyrant and then consolidate back into contesting range of the Tyranid EW objective.
There is no need to go on. The victory is decisive.
Both Tyranid objectives are contested.
Eldar takes both the Primary, Emperor's Will, and the Secondary, Crusade.
In addition, they've got First Blood (zoanthrope), Warlord and Linebreaker (wraithknight, dire avengers). Tyranids have only got Linebreaker (carnifex).
Mechdar takes it 10-1.
Total Domination by Mechdar!!!
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2014/01/30 05:46:06
this time no SMS to kill that stupid venomthrope/bastion crap,
however,...
putting him in the building should not prevent SMS hitting him either ?
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2014/01/25 08:48:26
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
coredump wrote: If this is anything short of a massacre, I will be amazed. Just kill the zoan on turn 1; and then all the fexes will start killing each other.
Whu...? Hes got more Synapse than that.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
the x factor is upgrades/number of gaunts in this army. I'm assuming you spent at least 1700 points from that picture in MCs, leaving you with enough points for like 70-80 gaunts. That could be good enough scoring and number of wounds, but the fexes are just going to be running at the serpents all game as they jet away and shoot/charge you with knights. I feel like the mobility of the eldar will get the better of the bugs on this one, even though 11 mcs is really durable esp with cover+shroud from a venomthrope.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
I'll wait for the psychic powers. If those are all dakka fexes then he is going to need onslaught or the eldar can just kite him around all day shooting at whatever his troops are. First turn the eldar should kill at least one FHT if not both although it appears the center of the table has multiple BLOS pieces so maybe not. Need better pictures of the table.
So most of your recent tyranid strategies have involved some dastardly trick. How do you plan to trick yourself?
It is my philosophy that against high-level players, there really are no tricks. Good players should be able to see and anticipate what the other player is planning to do.
coredump wrote: If this is anything short of a massacre, I will be amazed. Just kill the zoan on turn 1; and then all the fexes will start killing each other.
If mechdar can get to the zoan with Dominion in a bastion.
Yup! Mechdar is competitive as heck, but I consider the 9-carnifex list more as a fun list than as a competitive one.
thanatos67 wrote: the x factor is upgrades/number of gaunts in this army. I'm assuming you spent at least 1700 points from that picture in MCs, leaving you with enough points for like 70-80 gaunts. That could be good enough scoring and number of wounds, but the fexes are just going to be running at the serpents all game as they jet away and shoot/charge you with knights. I feel like the mobility of the eldar will get the better of the bugs on this one, even though 11 mcs is really durable esp with cover+shroud from a venomthrope.
Nids are running 50 termagants for their troops.
Red Corsair wrote: I'll wait for the psychic powers. If those are all dakka fexes then he is going to need onslaught or the eldar can just kite him around all day shooting at whatever his troops are. First turn the eldar should kill at least one FHT if not both although it appears the center of the table has multiple BLOS pieces so maybe not. Need better pictures of the table.
Yeah 50 gaunts is fairly low, I guess the one upside is thats only 200 points so you should have some decent kit on all the big guys. big guns would be not a bad mission for nids, but then again wraithknights are virtually impossible for nids to kill outside of close combat, and even then the combat is risky because of how solid the knight is in cc. Serpent spam is probably, generally speaking, one of the nid codex's worst matchup, maybe even worse than tau due to their lack of mobile/long range anti-armor.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
List vs list, eldar without a doubt. Devourers wounding WKs on 6's and glancing serpents on 6's just doesn't hack it. WKs waiting in terrain means nids always strike last.
One player using both armies never works out like a real game tho. It's literally impossible to play both sides objectively making tactical decisions and adjusting on the fly.
Be prepared for heavy criticism from readers if any movement/target priority choices favor one army.
thanatos67 wrote: Yeah 50 gaunts is fairly low, I guess the one upside is thats only 200 points so you should have some decent kit on all the big guys. big guns would be not a bad mission for nids, but then again wraithknights are virtually impossible for nids to kill outside of close combat, and even then the combat is risky because of how solid the knight is in cc. Serpent spam is probably, generally speaking, one of the nid codex's worst matchup, maybe even worse than tau due to their lack of mobile/long range anti-armor.
Yeah, WK's are a problem for tyranids nowadays. Only the Swarmlord can reliably dispose of them but the Swarmlord just isn't commonplace anymore.
Serpent-spam defintely ranks up there along with DE venom-spam and triptide/O'vesa-star Tau as some of the hardest matchups for bugs. Heck, serpent-spam mechdar ranks up there as one of the toughest armies for most other armies to face.
hyv3mynd wrote: List vs list, eldar without a doubt. Devourers wounding WKs on 6's and glancing serpents on 6's just doesn't hack it. WKs waiting in terrain means nids always strike last.
One player using both armies never works out like a real game tho. It's literally impossible to play both sides objectively making tactical decisions and adjusting on the fly.
Be prepared for heavy criticism from readers if any movement/target priority choices favor one army.
But I promise that I won't take it easy on my opponent.
Yeah, there are some pit-falls about self-played games. You're bound to make mistakes as you have to play 2 armies. However, there are also advantages as well, such as no one else in my area plays these types of extreme armies and that I will probably play them better than most even if I do make mistakes.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 16:15:28
Last time I faced Tyranids that used 1 unit of 3 Dakkafexes, they (fexes) ate my WK in CC. I must admit I underestimated them a little bit.
Depends heavily on the mission but I still think Eldar are gonna win it. They are just too mobile, have stronger shooting (including superior range obviously, otherwise the nids have actually more shots )
and 2 MCs themselves that can kill any single enemy MC.
Unless they are in a unit of 3.
"I'm rather intrigued to discover that my opponent, who looks like a perfectly civilised person, is in fact mathematically capable"
2014/01/25 16:08:18
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
As awesome as I think 9 carnifexes are, there is no way tyranids can beat Mechdar short of the dice gods showing up beforehand and putting in trick dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/25 16:08:46
Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight
2014/01/25 16:14:08
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
Isn't it hard to draw a conclusion about the competitiveness of a previously untested list if it it's first trial is a horrendous matchup? Wouldn't it be better to ease it in to get a better gauge of it's strength's and weaknesses?
Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General
2014/01/25 16:20:53
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
Isn't it hard to draw a conclusion about the competitiveness of a previously untested list if it it's first trial is a horrendous matchup? Wouldn't it be better to ease it in to get a better gauge of it's strength's and weaknesses?
You're assuming it is a horrendous matchup....but just how horrendous is it really?
We'll never know unless we can test it out.
And no need to ease things in. I prefer to just dive right in. I already have a good idea of its strengths and weaknesses. I just need to test out my hypothesis with a tough matchup.
My money's on the Mechdar. 9 Carnifexes would be awfully slow, the Wraithknighs inflicting Instant Death with their Wraithcannons would probably pick a few off before they can reach the transports.
2014/01/25 16:35:26
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.
I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks
In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is
I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
Oops... I was basing my assumptions on only the pictures, which did not include a bastion.
Kind of silly, because they also didn't include any troops... and only came to about 1700-1750 pts....
Still think synapse is weak link. Probably advise heavily targeting the flyrants. If Eldar does nothing but remove one flyant a turn with all of that shooting, that should be enough.
2014/01/25 16:55:39
Subject: 2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
Roci wrote: I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
I almost never deploy anything in the bastion to start. In most cases, I hide my venom/zoan behind it and then move in on my Turn 1. This way, they can't shoot at the bastion if it is unoccupied.
Then by the time they get in, my opponent will have to worry about my advancing flyrants and a host of other fast Tyranid threats that they won't have time to shoot at the bastion.
Also, in this particular game, due to the lack of AP2 shooting in the Eldar army, I actually embark my zoan in the bastion instead and hide my venom behind (whereas in my other games, it is usually the other way around). The zoan with its 3++ save is much more survivable inside the bastion than the venom.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this one played out. I'm a massive Fex fan and would love to be able to use as many as physically possible in my games!
2014/01/27 10:34:13
Subject: Re:2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (Coming Soon)
Roci wrote: I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
I almost never deploy anything in the bastion to start. In most cases, I hide my venom/zoan behind it and then move in on my Turn 1. This way, they can't shoot at the bastion if it is unoccupied.
This was changed in SHA, wasn't it?
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