Here in no certain order are the lessons I learned in my first test games. Granted, some of this may be in part to my limited experience. The reason I picked up Nidz in the first place was to have an army totally different then anything I played before, so there is a little adjustment period for me.


1. There are no "stand out" units in this book. It is extremely balanced. Everything has it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

2. The Deathleaper is still my favorite unit. He alone shut down Jaws when I played against the Space Wolves, and Warp time when I played against Chaos Space Marines.

3. The Tervigon is a "meh" choice. Sure you get a scoring MC that can generate new units, but the units it generates are usually small in number and you have a 40% chance to burn out the ability every time you use it. Not to mention that if the Tervigon dies (which isn't hard, see below) then you run the risk of killing all of your scoring units within 18". Top that off with Catalyst being a psychic power and can be shut down, and you have a boatload of points that may not contribute anything to the game.

4. Monstrous Creatures are fragile and expensive. Carnifexes fall before almost every other armies heavy assault units. In my test game against the Wolves, Logan and a small Terminator unit of 4 was able to take down one with full Carnifex in combat before it had a chance to swing. MCs also fall to the massive amount of fire from other armies. When you have 10 missile launchers from Long Fangs hitting your MCs, even with cover, it sheds wounds quickly.

5. Trygons are good, but tricky to use. One game I deployed it too aggressively and it lost 5 wounds before it had a chance to move. The other game I was too conservative with it and my opponent was able to avoid it hitting anything vital. Good deployment can make the creature a non-issue. I did played that you can bring a unit with it the turn you arrive, and that is what I am finding it's main strength to be.

6. Spore Pods are amazing. They are fragile and are easy kill points, but they provide critical cover, and can deliver a massive amount of additional shooting to your army.

7. Hive Guard are another "meh" choice. I could barely cause any damage to tanks with them over the course of three games. I think they are a unit that you either take in numbers (like 6 of them) or you don't take at all.

This is still me adapting, but I am enjoying the army and the challenge it is giving me.

Have you actually got the codex, or are you playing off the rumors. If you've actually got the book, can you confirm on the Trygon allowing infantry to arrive the same round as it through it's tunnel?

well, what shall i say, the Tervigons absolutely need regenerate. It's expensive but hey, with six wounds it WILL come in handy. I would also consider letting them outflank (I will have two hive tyrants with tactical instinct in my 1500 list.).

And yes, units can enter from the trygon's tunnel, but not in the turn it appeared.
You can deploy within 6'' of a "reasonably sized marker". quite a big hole if you ask me.

I'll be interested to see if these findings remain true as more people get access to the Codex, as almost everyone seems to be lauding the Tervigon and Hive Guard. Just out of curiosity, what list were you using, and what lists did you play against?

I have trouble picturing the Hive Guards as Meh. They've got 2 shots at s8, and they are very heavy platforms for that kind of firepower, presuming they are getting cover saves.

Seems like a unit of 3 firing at a rhino is 6 shots, 4 hits, 1-2 pens, 1 glance, 1 nothing? So figure every 2 rounds you ought to get a rhino down? Sounds good to me!

Like I said, I am not really experienced with this army so these findings could be just me. I have been playing Marines (of all flavors) for close to 7 years now, so I am adjusting to the change.

Have you actually got the codex, or are you playing off the rumors. If you've actually got the book, can you confirm on the Trygon allowing infantry to arrive the same round as it through it's tunnel?

Playing off very reliable rumors, and I was able to confirm the points costs, so the lists where accurate.

I asked about the Trygon arrival, and it seemed by how the German codex was worded, a unit can arrive on the same turn as the Trygon, so that is how I played. I also played that the Death Leaper's +1 and the Tyrant's +1 stacked, so I was reliably getting all of my reserves in on turn two.

well, what shall i say, the Tervigons absolutely need regenerate. It's expensive but hey, with six wounds it WILL come in handy. I would also consider letting them outflank (I will have two hive tyrants with tactical instinct in my 1500 list.).

My Problem wasn't in their taking damage from shooting, but from assault. I had a Deamon Prince in CC with it, and he was able to put it down in two rounds of combat. And once he goes down he takes a lot of Hormagaunts with him. So I highly recommend against the "2 units of gaunts, 2 Termagaunt" build. Better to have some Warriors. I am not ruling out fielding one in a given army list, just multiples are too much.

I'll be interested to see if these findings remain true as more people get access to the Codex, as almost everyone seems to be lauding the Tervigon and Hive Guard. Just out of curiosity, what list were you using, and what lists did you play against?

I don't have my exact lists, but I did try to go MC heavy with Hive Guard support.

I played Oblit heavy Chaos and Logan lead Space Wolves with two Rune Priests.

What I found was that when you are facing multiple Land Raider Space Wolves, you're kinda screwed with Hive Guard. Heavy Venom Cannons don't help either.

I have trouble picturing the Hive Guards as Meh. They've got 2 shots at s8, and they are very heavy platforms for that kind of firepower, presuming they are getting cover saves.

Their problem wasn't survivability. It was range and damage. We where playing that you still get cover saves from the shots, and str. 8 doesn't help against Land Raiders. Most of my opponents just ignored them.

So, tyranids can't kill reliably tanks via shooting outside of that S10 lance ap1 shot, I'm guessing?

Except when you are playing against Space Wolves.

At least against a Hood you can Deathleaper the Librarians leadership.

Mahu, I'm with you on Tervigons. They're offensively challenged. I think they're still viable and all, but that people talking of 5 or 6 Tervigons will just have too many points tied up in units with any offensive capability whatsoever. I had a Carnifex get jumped and wiped out without swinging by a Death Company. Which then proceeded to later jump a Tervigon. At least the Tervigon (barely) made it to the second turn of CC before dropping. I dunno...maybe there'll be Tervigon-heavy builds emerge that compensate for their weaknesses.

Regarding Hive Guard, I found 'em to be transport killers. And the rules for the gun (I believe) say you ignore intervening terrain. If they're in it, they still get a cover save.

I think HG and Zoeys have different targets. Although I like HG just a little more overall because of how relentless the gun is once it's in range. Zoeys are a little more inconsistent at what they do.



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@ Fuzzyorb -- what do you hope to accomplish by outflanking Tervigons? I'm not being a smart-a$$ here, I'm honestly curious.

Trying to arrive later to suffer less shooting/choppy from the enemy and getting on objectives that were actively placed near the shorter board edges.
Otherwise, meh.

Hopefully you've been playing games against folks other than Space Wolves, who really seem to be designed to take down monstrous creatures and are really pysker/anti-pysker heavy. Also with that, does your opponent usually take 10 missile launchers from Long Fangs or did he design the list after he saw you were playing MC heavy Tyranids?

Large units of Long Fangs with missile launchers = outflanking genestealers (which alot of folks seem to have dismissed on the forums here). I agree with you that 5 or 6 Tervigons is extreme and depends entirely on Termagants killing things/claiming objectives, but they can still be useful with their ability to generate scoring units.

A full death company charging a Carnifex should be able to kill it - thats why you need to get higher initiative MC in there with them to deal with them. Or hit them with ranged blasts, or tie them up with cheap broods, or alot of different options. Where MC really shine is being able to walk through bolter fire (which a majority of the Space Marine player's armies should be using unless they're min maxing heavy weapons squads and such). If they're rocking 10 missile launchers like you said, then yes it'll be hard to footslog across the board.

Good stuff Mahu.

I've been doing some quick unit reviews as part of my after action reports... it looks like you and I are agreeing to an extent.

I think you might have some things wrong, specifically the death leaper giving you any bonus to reserves on turn 2. His pheromone trail won't activate until turn 3 at the earliest, which really marginalizes it. The tervigon's termagant killing explosion only effect termagant units that have a modelw ithin 6" IIRC.

I'd agree with #1. Only, I feel its important to add that both the zoanthrope and the hive guard are completely game changing additions to the codex. They aren't OP, but are so vital to 5th edition competitiveness, that I'd say that one or the other are must-take's in any list type.

#2... Well, wait till you play against a non psychic army, then he is really a snoozer, and an expensive one at that. He is a requirement for any list running zoanthropes, so he'll see plenty of play time.

#3. Agreed. Not bad by any stretch, but reports of its uberness are greatly exaggerated.

#4. The T6 W6 3+ MCs have felt decently sturdy for me, as have tyrant with guard. Fexes, flyrants and harpies do feel a bit fragile in my hands.

#5. The version i haven't used yet. thanks for the tips, I'm looking forward to using him and that was good info. Gotta use that fleet, and deploy a bit back from special weapons, it seems.

#6. If only he climbing tentacles weren't ap-, it would be real transport killer. Even then, for 40 points, its got a bunch of strength 6 attacks, and it provides temporary cover (not for long if players are smart.) But most importantly, it makes unusable units usable. How vital is that?

#7. I know what you mean by 'meh'. you don't mean bad, but I have to really disagree here. My first game out with them, i played against a razorback spam list, and without them I would have been picked apart. I didn't even realize that they don't allow screened cover. Also, think about it this way. If you play against another tyranid army and you have hive guard and they have zoans/warriors, who do you think wins the shooting war? What is cool is the the hive guard synergize extraordinarily well with a ground pounder list, but can't really get a mobile screen or keep you with a dropping list, thats where zoanthropes excel... so you have these two units, which are different but the same, that work in differrent list types. I think that is awesome, but some people just might not like one or the other of them.

your over all message is ringing true. I've already spent hours pondering the dex, and I've batrepped two full 1750 games, trying out every sinle unit I'm interested in. And what I've found is that there isn't a no-brainer, just out of the codex and smack you in the face, internet list. Full ground and pound has huge weaknesses, and full aggro drop pod has major weaknesses as well. Everyone is going to have to find their blend between the two.

What do you guys think about Dakkafexes in pods? I'm not sure it's as dead of an option as some think.

I gotta say dropping in a Screamer-Killer, firing an inaccurate bioplasma shot, then getting charged by a Death Company (really, the S-K could almost as easily been shot to pieces too) didn't leave me in love with it.

If you're going to pod in and have a turn in which you're not doing anything else, a shedload of Devourer attacks looks pretty decent to me. If you pop a transport, you can maybe throw the pod's shooting on the occupants. And maybe that's where a strangler on the pod makes some sense.

And hey, the fex still has 4 attacks. It's not much without the rerolls, but it's going to die to heavy hitters in CC anyway.

Edit: Well, never mind re: transports. I just checked the weapon summary and saw the Devourer with brainworms/whatever is AP -. For some reason I was thinking the upgraded ammo made it AP6. So it's actually at a disadvantage to the bioelectric field of a Trygon Alpha. Hmpf.

In advance I am sorry for the long reply

Mahu, I'm with you on Tervigons. They're offensively challenged. I think they're still viable and all, but that people talking of 5 or 6 Tervigons will just have too many points tied up in units with any offensive capability whatsoever. I had a Carnifex get jumped and wiped out without swinging by a Death Company. Which then proceeded to later jump a Tervigon. At least the Tervigon (barely) made it to the second turn of CC before dropping. I dunno...maybe there'll be Tervigon-heavy builds emerge that compensate for their weaknesses.

They do have a nice blast template, but they are indeed fragile against any competent assault unit.

I am not saying they are bad, I think that it's a mistake to rely on them as your only scoring unit. I like the combination of one with Warriors as a solid scoring base.

Regarding Hive Guard, I found 'em to be transport killers. And the rules for the gun (I believe) say you ignore intervening terrain. If they're in it, they still get a cover save.

I think HG and Zoeys have different targets. Although I like HG just a little more overall because of how relentless the gun is once it's in range. Zoeys are a little more inconsistent at what they do.

I agree with Shep, which one you take depends on the list. I will try them again, but I am not rushing to their bandwagon.

I play against a lot of heavy transport armies, so it's hard to justify them. At least in my local meta.

Hopefully you've been playing games against folks other than Space Wolves, who really seem to be designed to take down monstrous creatures and are really pysker/anti-pysker heavy. Also with that, does your opponent usually take 10 missile launchers from Long Fangs or did he design the list after he saw you were playing MC heavy Tyranids?

No that is his normal list. He has won the last 4 local tournaments in a row with it. He is a great player and excels at the clutch rolling. Long Fangs are so cheap with such a high damage output, there is almost no reason not to field them.

I have to be able to deal with competitive Space Wolves if I want to compete in my local meta. When you have two Land Raiders full of death that can play the conservative game if needed, filled with good assault units, and can easily shut down your best anti-tank at range. It's a tough nut to crack for Tyranids.

Large units of Long Fangs with missile launchers = outflanking genestealers (which alot of folks seem to have dismissed on the forums here). I agree with you that 5 or 6 Tervigons is extreme and depends entirely on Termagants killing things/claiming objectives, but they can still be useful with their ability to generate scoring units.

We play with lots of terrain to, so that is not an automatic fix. I am thinking more podding Warriors deploying in cover. A big enough unit with an Alpha Warrior in it can survive a round of shooting and assault them off the table.

A full death company charging a Carnifex should be able to kill it - thats why you need to get higher initiative MC in there with them to deal with them. Or hit them with ranged blasts, or tie them up with cheap broods, or alot of different options. Where MC really shine is being able to walk through bolter fire (which a majority of the Space Marine player's armies should be using unless they're min maxing heavy weapons squads and such). If they're rocking 10 missile launchers like you said, then yes it'll be hard to footslog across the board.

There is a laundry list of units that can kill a Carnifex in CC. Bio Plasma is awesome though, especially in a pod. One thing I found successful was to put the Zoenthropes in front of the Carnifexes. Zoenthropes don't care about cover and can draw fire enough to keep the Carnifex alive. I think running the Carnifex and setting up a charge on tanks are the Carnifexes best use right now.

your over all message is ringing true. I've already spent hours pondering the dex, and I've batrepped two full 1750 games, trying out every sinle unit I'm interested in. And what I've found is that there isn't a no-brainer, just out of the codex and smack you in the face, internet list. Full ground and pound has huge weaknesses, and full aggro drop pod has major weaknesses as well. Everyone is going to have to find their blend between the two.

I agree who heartedly with your post Shep. If anything, this codex is proving to be pretty balanced in choices, I expect to see every unit in the book on the table. I really want to experiment with elite genestealers, as its a rare gift to be able to instantly assault when they arrive.

As one who was always more interested Warriors then was healthy with the last codex, how do they fair in the new codex?

Mahu wrote:
My Problem wasn't in their taking damage from shooting, but from assault. I had a Deamon Prince in CC with it, and he was able to put it down in two rounds of combat. And once he goes down he takes a lot of Hormagaunts with him.

This could have been one of the problems. The Tervigon only hurts Termagant units when it dies.

I'm not sure Razorbacks are as doomed against the Hive Guard as it might seem. The lascannon still packs 48" in range against the impaler cannon's 24" and it's a huge difference. The Hive Guard sure are nice but I don't think they completely counter Chimeras and Razorbacks despite being superior to them point by point. They have to move a lot from their deployment zone to be able to shoot anything and that means they can't utilise shooting through los blocking terrain as well as they'd like.

But could someone explain to me what a Tyranid army with a four Tervigons and about six Hive Guard and three Zoanthropes is going to do with Thunderwolf Cavalry or Nob Bikers or Seers on Bikes? All I'm currently seeing is some anti-transport/tank gun platforms and a few monstrous creatures that can't hack it in a fight at all. Whatever few remaining points the Nids have they would need to invest in a seriously incredible assault unit or two, but it doesn't seem like the Tyranids have one. Atleast not one that isn't simply shot off the board before it does anything.

My early impression is that it will be very tough to shoot the Nids off the board, but that a 75% shooty army with 25% points invested in a destroyer-of-worlds assault unit will have little to fear.

Well the army you quoted is very poorly designed, so likely you will have no trouble beating it. Perhaps wait until you see what Nid armies actually do bring to the table before dismissing the codex.

Or, even try making a list that would actually be effective to conduct your thought-experiment.

Dracos wrote:Well the army you quoted is very poorly designed, so likely you will have no trouble beating it. Perhaps wait until you see what Nid armies actually do bring to the table before dismissing the codex.

Or, even try making a list that would actually be effective to conduct your thought-experiment.

How about you try making a list that would actually be effective? I don't play Tyranids, I play Space Marines/SW/whatever, and since the book isn't available yet I'm basing my presumptions on what I read on Dakka. Currently the hyped up units are Tervigons and people are going as far as saying they're maxing out on them, and of course the Hive Guard. Some are saying there's no reason not to go the full 9 for a bargain 450 points, and some are saying it's good to mix in some Zoans. Now, I was simply putting two and two together what that army might possibly look like at the 1.5K or 1.75K limits and how it in my opinion has some glaring holes. Since you seem to have a very confident idea about Tyranids and how to win at the highest level with them how about sharing the secret knowledge with the rest of us instead of just doing your best at derailing the thread and making yourself look like a troll.

Let me try this another way. What is the point in making a list with an obviously huge flaw, then asking others to prove the huge flaw isn't so huge?

It would be more helpful to have some people who play Nids (read: not me) make lists and then try to determine weaknesses of those lists. You are trying to start at the end of an analysis, and work your way back to making the proof. This serves no purpose to anyone.

As one who was always more interested Warriors then was healthy with the last codex, how do they fair in the new codex?

I love them, they are a stand out unit, at least to my playstyle.

Warriors are a reliable troop unit and IMHO the best objective holder we get outside of the Tervigon. You just have to be careful with them because they are a little fragile to heavy fire.

I like the combination of Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter and a unit of at least 4 with Deathspitters in a Pod. You drop that thing into decent cover near an objective and sit there and fire all day long. Combine that with the Death Leaper showing up in that same cover and you almost guarantee that they will not be assaulted out of cover.

This could have been one of the problems. The Tervigon only hurts Termagant units when it dies.

Right, I did the "2 units of 10 Termagaunts and 2 Tervigons" as my troop choice thing. It's not wise.

I'm not sure Razorbacks are as doomed against the Hive Guard as it might seem. The lascannon still packs 48" in range against the impaler cannon's 24" and it's a huge difference. The Hive Guard sure are nice but I don't think they completely counter Chimeras and Razorbacks despite being superior to them point by point. They have to move a lot from their deployment zone to be able to shoot anything and that means they can't utilise shooting through los blocking terrain as well as they'd like.

I see potential there, as the Tyranid lists that will take them throw a lot of other threats your way. (I assume Hive Guard are in a ground pounding list). Yes, you have a massive amount of Lascannon fire, but what are you going to shoot at, the Hive Guard harassing your tanks, or the crazy CC monsters heading at you.

My problem with them is what happens when you come across armies where their guns are useless? The Space WOlf force I faced had two Land Raiders and a single Rhino. That may sound unconventional, but it is still a highly competitive list. What happens when you face off against ground pounding-deepstrike heavy chaos? (Another build that is highly competitive, but people ignore because of the mech craze). When I build competitive lists, I try and have at least an answer to the types of opponents I am sure to face as well as creating symmetry between my units, I tend to be less worried about redundency. I still need to try my hand versus IG, as I am not looking forward to what out flanking Hellhounds do.

But could someone explain to me what a Tyranid army with a four Tervigons and about six Hive Guard and three Zoanthropes is going to do with Thunderwolf Cavalry or Nob Bikers or Seers on Bikes? All I'm currently seeing is some anti-transport/tank gun platforms and a few monstrous creatures that can't hack it in a fight at all. Whatever few remaining points the Nids have they would need to invest in a seriously incredible assault unit or two, but it doesn't seem like the Tyranids have one. Atleast not one that isn't simply shot off the board before it does anything.

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as my experiences with them. Tyranids don't have the one crazy assault unit like other armies have. What we do have, I think is a a whole army of assault craziness that we have to capitalize on. Depending on Zoenthropes, Hive Guard, and Tervigons are a mistake in my opinion for exactly the reasons you describe. But mix in things like a few Genestealers, Alpha Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Revengers, Hormagaunts, Trygons, Carnifexes, etc. and you may not have one unit that can handle the other sides "super" units, but you throw enough cheaper things at it, and you can ware it down. Tyranids are where they need to be, in the war of attrition.

I think trying out the genestealers would be a good idea if your going to play Space Wolves (and especially the guy who runs alot of Long Fangs) - I'm not sold on the Broodlord yet, especially considering the Pyschic hood may nullify his Hypnotize power and all he'll have is rending attacks. If you have alot of terrain, it should favor you against alot of shooting from Space Wolves, as you'll benefit from the 4+ coversaves. Space Wolves are a hard nut to crack - especially since everyone runs the Jaws power to take down Monstrous Creatures. But - your Shadow of the Warp will make it more difficult for him to get them off, while Deathleaper can help with the anti-hood abilities.
2 Landraiders is pretty tough, which if your opponent is running them loaded up and having several Long Fangs units means he isn't screwing around when it comes to competitive lists.
I still think your best bet to go anti tank is to pop them with the Zoanthropes, which hopefully will have their shots go off around the Pyschic hood. Getting your monstrous creatures in there to pop the tanks is okay, but they will have to brave the missile fire to do so.
Could you post the list that your opponent has been using - like to take a crack at setting up a bug list which would work against it - have an idea in my head but would like to verify it.

Mattbranb:

Space Wolves don't use Psychic Hoods...

The biggest thing versus Space Wolves is shutting down the Rune Priests, though that is hard to accomplish. Like I said, at least against Hoods, you have the Deathleaper giving you the D3 advantage. Against Space Wolves they can put multiple Runic Weapons in range and have two chances to shut that down each power you cast. I haven't found Jaws to be that troublesome against Space Wolves as you can Deathleaper the Rune Priests leadership and put a Shadows of the Warp on them easily. It never got off once when I played against the Wolves. My main problem was dealing with Logan and his Terminator retinue.

My area is competitive (which I prefer), but tends to get stuck in a rut. There isn't a lot of creative builds here, so I can at least bank on expectations.

My bad - haven't played Space Wolves yet so I figured they had some kind of anti-psycher ability. Our area hasn't moved into the "allowing special characters" yet for Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k, so I'm not as worried about super-characters like Logan and such.
Note - if he's running Logan, some rune priests, multiple landraiders, terminator units, etc. etc. - how many scoring units does he have and what is the rest of the army made up of? Don't know the points off had, but wouldn't Logan, terminators and the land raiders run somewhere around 1,000 pts by themselves? I'm used to either 1750 or 1850 lists, would would mean he's putting alot of eggs in non-scoring units baskets.

Well...I think disallowing characters is a problem.

So there are no Deathwing nor Ravenwing players?
There are so few 'special characters' these days if you put on the lawyer pants.

Special characters are much different than named characters which have been given the 'ok' by GW to be used in any list and at any time.
____________

That aside.

Logan's terminators are scoring units .
And generally a list like that is more focused at either: wiping you out, or going for a draw.

Mahu wrote:The biggest thing versus Space Wolves is shutting down the Rune Priests, though that is hard to accomplish. Like I said, at least against Hoods, you have the Deathleaper giving you the D3 advantage. Against Space Wolves they can put multiple Runic Weapons in range and have two chances to shut that down each power you cast. I haven't found Jaws to be that troublesome against Space Wolves as you can Deathleaper the Rune Priests leadership and put a Shadows of the Warp on them easily. It never got off once when I played against the Wolves. My main problem was dealing with Logan and his Terminator retinue.

My area is competitive (which I prefer), but tends to get stuck in a rut. There isn't a lot of creative builds here, so I can at least bank on expectations.

Actually agenst wolves I'd worry more about thunderwolf Calvary as they will eat your nids alive big or small, I know I play both armies and have tested out nids a good dozen times now with the translated codex found on /tg/. If you want to play nids in this codex and your opponent isn't 100% mech then use Doom with a pod..... I preach this because most of the game I have used him and he has made things so much easier for me regardless of whether or not i use his large blast.

Deathleaper on the other hand effects one unit some of the time sure you can give someone -3 ld but your usually aiming at independent characters who have the option of breaking off their squad and if they're psyhic most of the time using power weapons or inside vehicles which means they might not need that power.... also deathleaper is the only lictor I've seen do anything and that's only cause he has an ability to do something before he starts. lictors come in on turn 2 maybe and then give their bonus but don't forget when they come in they can't move or do anything so you have to make those two shots count or else that ##perLic/###death points gets shot the hell up easily.

Tervigons are so wonderful for me... I marched a swarmlord through the middle of the battlefield giving him/tyrant guard feel no pain (that tevigon hid behind the swarmlord) while the other two marched right up along side(3 in total) and when tehy got there they spat out 3 hordes of guants and the whole shooty assualty rape of that turn was wonderful.... I mean the best part is is that you don't have to and shouldn't feel the need to blast out gaunts every three seconds, and by the way I was facing a full lash/oblit/nurglemarine army. Sure some gaunts died but with the combination of spore pods and genestealers I was able to herd his units where I wanted them just in time for my drop pods to come down and unleash hell with doomy zoanthropey gauntlike devourer goodness.

Don't forget pods have 6 str 6 shots so transports have a good chance at popping(even if BS2). I have to reiterate... DOOM DOOM DOOM.... he always took atleast twice his points back and was very very hard to kill having a 3+ inv and slowed amounts of regenerating wounds. Best part is one of my tervigons in most games were able to catch up with him and provide that nice feel no pain so his hits were always strong. I didn't use any heavys because although they look fun my tervigons are just as survivable , come with optional feel no pain, and are over all more useful in any scenario. I mean the big shiney heavy baddies any either have higher strength or more attacks or even shoot more but my tevigons cost less than most and survive better than all but the tyrannofex which it's on par with for much less points.

and the parasite was fun in case you were wondering because i hid him with some gaunts the first two games but he costs too much for how little he actually does.


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Sanctjud wrote:Well...I think disallowing characters is a problem.

So there are no Deathwing nor Ravenwing players?
There are so few 'special characters' these days if you put on the lawyer pants.

Special characters are much different than named characters which have been given the 'ok' by GW to be used in any list and at any time.
____________

That aside.

Logan's terminators are scoring units .
And generally a list like that is more focused at either: wiping you out, or going for a draw.

yeah arn't they kinda moving away from the special characters?

Dracos wrote:It would be more helpful to have some people who play Nids (read: not me) make lists and then try to determine weaknesses of those lists.

It's nice that you atleast admit you were trolling and had nothing to add to the discussion.

Mahu wrote:I think you hit the nail on the head as far as my experiences with them. Tyranids don't have the one crazy assault unit like other armies have. What we do have, I think is a a whole army of assault craziness that we have to capitalize on. Depending on Zoenthropes, Hive Guard, and Tervigons are a mistake in my opinion for exactly the reasons you describe. But mix in things like a few Genestealers, Alpha Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Revengers, Hormagaunts, Trygons, Carnifexes, etc. and you may not have one unit that can handle the other sides "super" units, but you throw enough cheaper things at it, and you can ware it down. Tyranids are where they need to be, in the war of attrition.

Like you said there's no doubt Tervigons and Hive Guard are one of the 'better' units in the codex but because of the variety in competitive builds in 40K currently one can't really max out on anything (atleast Tyranids can't) and expect to have a competitive all-rounder list. Depending on points limit, the Tyranids might have to invest quite heavily on real assault units that actually kill models (and not just tie them up) in order to stand a chance against certain other armies. Wolf cav and bikers can be in combat by turn two and normally there's no outshooting them.

kitsunez wrote:Tervigons are so wonderful for me... I marched a swarmlord through the middle of the battlefield giving him/tyrant guard feel no pain (that tevigon hid behind the swarmlord) while the other two marched right up along side(3 in total) and when tehy got there they spat out 3 hordes of guants and the whole shooty assualty rape of that turn was wonderful.... I mean the best part is is that you don't have to and shouldn't feel the need to blast out gaunts every three seconds, and by the way I was facing a full lash/oblit/nurglemarine army. Sure some gaunts died but with the combination of spore pods and genestealers I was able to herd his units where I wanted them just in time for my drop pods to come down and unleash hell with doomy zoanthropey gauntlike devourer goodness.

Don't forget pods have 6 str 6 shots so transports have a good chance at popping(even if BS2). I have to reiterate... DOOM DOOM DOOM.... he always took atleast twice his points back and was very very hard to kill having a 3+ inv and slowed amounts of regenerating wounds.

I agree with what you're saying as well. To me it seems like the experiences about the Tyranid codex are quite positive and it's nice to hear that apparently the book is a success. I'll be eagerly anticipating the first real exact army lists made out of the official English version of the codex. When you guys get the book, post your lists somewhere and write some battle reports. I'm sure people will be interested.

Good thoughts Manhu.

I agree that there are not alot of OM assault units in the codex. But what they do have is an abundance of units that are both decent at shooting (at least against infantry) and decent at CC.

Therefore, I wonder whether a nob biker squad is going to easily roll up over a nid army just because it has 2-3 man broods of hive guard. Hive guard have 24" range no LOS guns w/ str 8 which means no FNP, and no wound allocation due to instant death. Based on the codex leak, it seams that Hive Guard only ignore some cover situations, so I am guessing that the nobs will still be getting thier 4+ cover. Nevertheless, if Nids go first, that will give them 2 rounds to fire into the bikers at 12 shots per round. I know if I was an orc player, I wouldn't cherish 24 strength 8 shots pummeling my unit.

I am also wondering if this codex won't see lists that are more of a buffet of units (given all the various synergies and lack of no-brainer choices) rather than the typical power builds that feature 3-4 differnet units that are spammed to thier fullest.

I agree with the codex being well balanced. People looking to load up on any one unit will be punished. I'd dare the OP to run the tyranofex or Y.stealers and see how they atcually perform. I'm just glad my 15 warrriors will be back in full force!

Mahu wrote:

As one who was always more interested Warriors then was healthy with the last codex, how do they fair in the new codex?

I love them, they are a stand out unit, at least to my playstyle.

Warriors are a reliable troop unit and IMHO the best objective holder we get outside of the Tervigon. You just have to be careful with them because they are a little fragile to heavy fire.

I like the combination of Alpha Warrior w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter and a unit of at least 4 with Deathspitters in a Pod. You drop that thing into decent cover near an objective and sit there and fire all day long. Combine that with the Death Leaper showing up in that same cover and you almost guarantee that they will not be assaulted out of cover.

Wait what? Warriors = troops?!
Ohh it is a happy day

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

Powerfists aren't quite the threat they could be just because the Warriors will tend to destroy what they hit at I5. But very obviously, the issue is that said unit will cost a boatload of points and even bolters will take their toll on them. A little bit of mobile firepower and that unit will be carved up quick. The hittiness is there but they look to be a terrible return in terms of durability for the points.

It's kind of a funny codex. As wyomingfox said, there's a lot of redundancy with CC ability and medium S shooting. Then there are a lot of units that are highly specialized to the point of being almost situational, really. Then there are "buff" units like Tyrants and Tervigons.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them? They get pretty much all the anti AV10-13 they need in a pretty wonderful package. They still have plenty of points to invest in whatever they need be it more guns or assault troops. Zoanthropes? Maybe, but then we're talking about 6 Guard and 3 Zoans. Lictors? The Ymgarl Stealers? In my opinion before someone finds an absolutely necessary unit in the elites slot, people will just go with a ton of Hive Guard and whatever else. It's pretty standard 40K list building really. You identify all the best units for different tasks and max out on them.

What's the save on the hive guard?

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

I was thinking something similar, only a foot unit with alpha warrior in pod or fronted by some hormagaunts or termagants. In a pod I think they'd just get smoked but part of a wave with enough other threats they could make a nice bit of counter charge.

Winged warriors 5+ save just doesn't cut it for me. Plus I have no desire to convert or pay out the nose for winged ones.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

I think you pretty much nailed it. Much like 2-3 gunfexes were mandatory for competive nids in 4ed dex, 6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason. Tyranids strength might be in assualt but it needs turn1 transport popping ability or that ability is moot.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies? That crap is gonna hit and hit hard against a tyranid army regardless, as far as I am concerned. Better to try and mitigate via non wrecking suppression of the raider, bubblewrapping/ pitting the hammer unit(s) and counter charging rather then sinking 580 points and all 3 elite slots. That way you have the tools to shut down or even wipe the other parts of the army.

That is my early, biased thoughts on the matter. I am sure after several games in a row against such armies I'll have to eat some crow

What's the save on the hive guard?

Hive Guard have a 4+.

winterman wrote:

Regarding OP CC units, Tyranids could field a reasonably nasty one. It'd just be *a lot* more "glass" than most of the uberunits. Tyranids could field a biggish unit of winged Warriors with boneswords, scything talons, adrenal glands and toxin sacs. So if hitting say, Nob bikers, that's jump infantry with 4 attacks each on the charge at I5, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, rerolling failed wounds, ignoring armor saves and causing ID on failed Ld checks. It's too late in the day for me to mathhammer all that, but it'd have to mess up a bunch of Nobz. Or hurt almost anything else, really.

I was thinking something similar, only a foot unit with alpha warrior in pod or fronted by some hormagaunts or termagants. In a pod I think they'd just get smoked but part of a wave with enough other threats they could make a nice bit of counter charge.

Winged warriors 5+ save just doesn't cut it for me. Plus I have no desire to convert or pay out the nose for winged ones.

What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

I think you pretty much nailed it. Much like 2-3 gunfexes were mandatory for competive nids in 4ed dex, 6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason. Tyranids strength might be in assualt but it needs turn1 transport popping ability or that ability is moot.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies? That crap is gonna hit and hit hard against a tyranid army regardless, as far as I am concerned. Better to try and mitigate via non wrecking suppression of the raider, bubblewrapping/ pitting the hammer unit(s) and counter charging rather then sinking 580 points and all 3 elite slots. That way you have the tools to shut down or even wipe the other parts of the army.

That is my early, biased thoughts on the matter. I am sure after several games in a row against such armies I'll have to eat some crow

What's the save on the hive guard?

Hive Guard have a 4+.

zoans are nids best anti tank with bright railgun lances and a 3+ inv save for low point cost plus their pods are nice with 6 str6 hits.......

deathleaper and lictors are still gak

hive guard arn't worth it

Therion wrote:What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

Zoanthropes. What's your other plan for Land Raiders? Also, Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:What I'm still wondering is that if Hive Guard really cost only 50 points for a T6 W2 heavy guy with an incredible weapon, what are 1750p Nid armies really losing by spending 450 points into the maximum 9 of them?

Zoanthropes. What's your other plan for Land Raiders? Also, Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

I love how zoans make raiders their bitch.... str10 vs armor 12 on a raider =D

The list really seems to promote Get in your face on turn two alot. There are multiple units capable of 2nd turn charges along with the ability for deepstrike.

I really see those armies doing the best. The problem I have is the - that a lot of the tyranid armies shooting has. Not to much of a problem but still kind of annoying.

4 or more drop pods gives you I think 24 shots at ST6 bs 2 thats pretty good. Throw in Podding warriors with a venom cannon. Hurray

winterman wrote:6-9 hive guard are auto add. And if you are taking 6 of em instead of 9 it had better be a pretty good reason.

Zoanthropes just need waay more extra crap to be viable in my opinion. Gotta have death leaper or a good chunk of armies nullfiy them. Really need a pod or they are asking to get instagibbed before doing anything significant. Should have a reserve bonus or they'll show to the party to late.

Or don't waste all those points and critical slots and let them work like normal. After eating a little crow myself in another thread (well, I was a bit misinformed of thier new stats ), I am willing to give a unit a chance. Personally, I can see fielding 6 Hive guard and 2-3 Zoes myself. Zoes have a 24" threat range and in 2 of three of the deployment situations, you will likely be able to put them far enough up field that they will be able to cover a good portion of the board in the second turn if not the first (and thanks to lance, side shots are less critical). Psychic Hoods born by Ld 10 models are a pain, but luckily Orcs, Guard, Tau, Necrons, Nids, Eldar, and Dark Eldar don't have them. As for ID, a unit of 3 can be insta-killed by 15 missle launcher shots (statistically needed for a 100% chance)...but if they are directing fire at them, then they are sparing your tervigons, tyrants, warriors, hive guard, hormies, stealers, gargoyles, ect. And if you lose them, you lose a meager 180 points...vs if they get a shot on a LR, he loses 250 points and potentially another 240+ points in terminators.

And honestlty, will zoathropes really fully counter the 1-3 landraider + termie armies?

Gosh, I feel that the answer should be no, but I am going to have to go with Jesus... . But to be faire, I don't see alot of 3 LR + 3 TH/SS termies (thank heavens) armies in most tournement games of 1750-1850. Maybe in Apocolypse...but in that case, I am bringing my Bio-Titan with a 3++...which is just fine since Warhounds and Reavers are unbelievably undercosted...well just about every stupid vehicle in 5th (thanks to 5th) is undercosted. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change .

Do Hive Guards count as MCs or are they like Warriors?

Without turning this into "can I make XYZ tyranid army", is it possible to make a viable army with Warriors and MCs and not using any of the swarmers?

Fetterkey wrote:Hive Guard apparently only have 4+ armor, which makes them a lot worse than I'd anticipated.

Well, Hive Guard are not MC (thankfully), don't need LOS, and ignore interviening cover (from current rumors). So, I really don't plan on relying on a 4+ armor save as much as a 4+ cover save, that should be readily available.

New units? Great.

What about the exsisting units? Are they any different? (Do you know that they are any different?)

Yeah, alot has changed. If you can stand to sift through this thread, you will learn alot.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271108.page

Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I've heard nothing that says they can split fire.

Ventus wrote:Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I would assume that they'd have to, Long Fangs/new Land Raiders are the only unit I know of that can split fire.

I wonder if these units will go the way of Obliterators.

1 = too few
2 = just right
3 = point sink/juicy target

I don't know, 3 has been the only squad size that has worked for my oblits and I.
I would say 3's for all of them as they aren't that expensive...

So I was doing some reading and pondering last night about units and options no one (including me) is talking about.

I wonder if we're overlooking Venomthropes a little. In a slogging list, sure, it looks like an invitation to be shot. But what about in a pod list, especially a more conservative drop list podding in shooters and not right on top of your opponent? Hiding one behind a pod wall should keep it out of LOS and give the pods and nearby units (Dakkafexes?) 5+ cover saves and defensive grenades. Barbed stranglers on the pods might also be a decent option here. Can't get around the fact that HG and Zoeys still easily look to be the most valuable Elites choices, but hey, I'm just trying here.

There seems to be a lot of internet chatter about Tyrants dying quickly. So I also wonder if we're overlooking the Unspeakable Horror ability on Tyrants a little. Assuming it's a Ld check and not a Morale check, and that units can't then redirect their fire elsewhere, it seems like something that can cause a couple of shooting failures, which might be all the Tyrant needs to survive. Life Leech looks underwhelming to me like everyone else, but maybe you take that too as an additional hedge. Of course, I think all of this would also rely on your popping enemy gun tanks pretty quickly, since UH wouldn't faze them. Again, just trying to think out of the box here.

I plan on taking two Venomthropes for my foot slogging list. They're going to give saves to my Gaunts and Big Guys. The mid size creatures shouldn't need their help as they'll be getting cover from the Gaunts. If people shoot the Venomthropes, they should be getting a 4+ save from the Gaunts, and it's that many less shots at the Big Guys either way.

My biggest fear is going to be Blast weapons. With so many bonuses for keeping your guys near each other, it's just going to be one big cluster frak, begging your opponent to toss pie plates at you.

Blast weapons won't be that bad. You only have to have 1 model from a unit within the 6" for venomthropes and tervigons special abilities to get the bonuses. so you can still string your squads out quite a bit.

wyomingfox wrote:Personally, I can see fielding 6 Hive guard and 2-3 Zoes myself.

I see that as a good mix actually and probably the baseline I will start at for my own playtesting (if only cause I already have 3 zonathropes and don't want to buy more hive guard then neccesary). I'm not against taking zoanthropes, just not seeing the need to load up on them exclusively.

I wonder if we're overlooking Venomthropes a little. In a slogging list, sure, it looks like an invitation to be shot. But what about in a pod list, especially a more conservative drop list podding in shooters and not right on top of your opponent? Hiding one behind a pod wall should keep it out of LOS and give the pods and nearby units (Dakkafexes?) 5+ cover saves and defensive grenades. Barbed stranglers on the pods might also be a decent option here. Can't get around the fact that HG and Zoeys still easily look to be the most valuable Elites choices, but hey, I'm just trying here.

It is an interesting idea, but between scatter and the rather smallish zone of influence I am not sure how much value they would add -- or the type of army that would really benefit.

I'm still interested in trying them in a slogging shooty build though. It is going to take quite a bit of shooting to take down a unit of venomthrope with 4+ cover at 36"+ range. Also since venomthropes abilities appear to be passive and the army in question isn't rushing forward -- going to ground seems like a fine option for the 3+ cover save. I am not entirely sold, but it sure seems worth looking into.

I thought for certain that IG would be my non-PA army of choice but Tyranids are really sounding like a fun little army.

I like the idea that there isn't a particularly uber sounding squad, instead you have alot of solid performers on the table.

You could be like me, and try to split resources between all three! I have SM, IG, and Nids (and never enough of any of them!)

minigun762 wrote:

Ventus wrote:Does anyone know if a group of 3 Hive Guard or 3 Zoeys all have to target the same unit?

I would assume that they'd have to, Long Fangs/new Land Raiders are the only unit I know of that can split fire.

I wonder if these units will go the way of Obliterators.

1 = too few
2 = just right
3 = point sink/juicy target

Doing the math, I would say that 3 is the ideal unit size. Enough to beat up AV11>, and most Open topped vehicles, easily, or two can combine fire to trash AV12 or 13 closed-Tops.

Seems to me that Nids will be best with combined arms and target saturation.

The best thing about hive guard is there t 6 and 2 wounds, they can put out a good amount of anti-tank but they want be as effective because they can only target 3 units if you max out on them. Combined with their short range I doubt you will be able to target the unit you want without them recieving a cover save.

Therion wrote:I'm not sure Razorbacks are as doomed against the Hive Guard as it might seem. The lascannon still packs 48" in range against the impaler cannon's 24" and it's a huge difference. The Hive Guard sure are nice but I don't think they completely counter Chimeras and Razorbacks despite being superior to them point by point. They have to move a lot from their deployment zone to be able to shoot anything and that means they can't utilise shooting through los blocking terrain as well as they'd like.

But could someone explain to me what a Tyranid army with a four Tervigons and about six Hive Guard and three Zoanthropes is going to do with Thunderwolf Cavalry or Nob Bikers or Seers on Bikes? All I'm currently seeing is some anti-transport/tank gun platforms and a few monstrous creatures that can't hack it in a fight at all. Whatever few remaining points the Nids have they would need to invest in a seriously incredible assault unit or two, but it doesn't seem like the Tyranids have one. Atleast not one that isn't simply shot off the board before it does anything.

My early impression is that it will be very tough to shoot the Nids off the board, but that a 75% shooty army with 25% points invested in a destroyer-of-worlds assault unit will have little to fear.

Hive Guard don't need LOS, so all of that terrain means nothing.

Mattbranb wrote:My bad - haven't played Space Wolves yet so I figured they had some kind of anti-psycher ability. Our area hasn't moved into the "allowing special characters" yet for Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k, so I'm not as worried about super-characters like Logan and such.
Note - if he's running Logan, some rune priests, multiple landraiders, terminator units, etc. etc. - how many scoring units does he have and what is the rest of the army made up of? Don't know the points off had, but wouldn't Logan, terminators and the land raiders run somewhere around 1,000 pts by themselves? I'm used to either 1750 or 1850 lists, would would mean he's putting alot of eggs in non-scoring units baskets.

Wolf Guard Terminators count as Troops when Logan is in the army. So there's plenty of scoring units that are nearly impossible to kill, and they approach in Land Raiders.

Wolf Guard Terminators count as Troops when Logan is in the army. So there's plenty of scoring units that are nearly impossible to kill, and they approach in Land Raiders.

Yeah, they are really tough for Nids. Here is my friend's 2000 point list that he has won 4 tournaments in a row with.

-HQ-

Logan Grimnar

Rune Priest w/ Jaws, Living Lightning

Rune Priest w/ Thunderclap, Living Lightning

-Elites-

Lone Wolf w/ Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

Lone Wolf w/ Terminator Armor, Chainfist, Storm Shield

-Troops-

4 or 5 Wolf Guard Terminators w/ various upgrades like Storm Shields, Wolf Claws, Chainfists, etc. in Land Raider Crusader

Small Unit of Grey Hunters w/ Melta, possible Wolf Guard leader in Rhino

Average sized Blood Claw Squad w/ Wolf Guard w/ Thunderhammer

-Heavy-

Long Fangs w/ 5 ML

Lang Fangs w/ 5 ML

Standard Land Raider


Blood Claws ride in standard raider. Rune Priest w/ Jaws either deploys with the fangs, or in the Rhino, Rune Priest number two joins Logan with the terminators in the Land Raider Crusader.

It may not look like a cohesive army list, but it has quite a few advantages. You can set up a good fire base with the Long Fangs, the Raiders, and the LL Rune Priests. You send Logan and his squad to be the heavy hitters and tackle assaults. And you use the Blood Claws as counter attack or objective taking. Very tough army to outshoot and outmaneuver. It also helps that he is "gifted" with the ability to pass any save he is called to make.

So when I played against him, I was able to use the Deathleaper on his Rune Priest with Jaws and shut it down, but since he has two mobile Runic Weapons, my Zoenthropes where useless against his transports. I threw Carnifexes and Tyrants to kill his Land Raiders, but he doesn't care because he can counter attack with Logan and his squad and easily take such things out. You add that to the Missle Launchers putting wounds on MCs, and you have a problem. The Trygon has a particular problem because he can show up and die if the Long Fangs have LOS on him. I tried to deploy behind cover with it, but eventually you have to go out and tag something, and as soon as he was out in the open, the Long Fangs punished me for it.

Here is the list I think I finally settled on for my next set of test games:

-HQ-

Warrior Alpha w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands = 100

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes = 180

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

15 Termagaunts = 75

Tervigon w/ Scything Talons, Catalyst, Adrenal Glands, Regenerate = 200

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in Pod = 180

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Str. 10 2 Shot Gun = 250

Carnifexes w/ Bioplasma in Pod = 220

Carnifexes w/ Bioplasma, in Pod = 220


Total = 1997

This list gives me a FNP Tyrannofex that can stand up to the Long Fangs punishment as well as have a "you can't cancel this" strength 10 gun to throw at his Land Raiders. I also greatly increased my ability to Alpha Strike, with the Carnifexs acting as "you have to deal with this" distractions, and it provides me cover for out flanking Genestealers. Plus I can put a lot of Termagaunt bodies on the table that can hopefully put some hurting on his units with sheer weight of Furious Charging Poison numbers.

It strikes me that Terminators will have a harder time with hordes of poisonous little bugs than with big bugs or rending bugs. Not only will enough attacks eventually penetrate their Terminator Armour, but it will render Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers inefficient wastes of points Congratulations, your Wolf Guard Terminator with a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shield just juiced two Hormagaunts.

Mahu wrote:Here in no certain order are the lessons I learned in my first test games. Granted, some of this may be in part to my limited experience. The reason I picked up Nidz in the first place was to have an army totally different then anything I played before, so there is a little adjustment period for me.


1. There are no "stand out" units in this book. It is extremely balanced. Everything has it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

2. The Deathleaper is still my favorite unit. He alone shut down Jaws when I played against the Space Wolves, and Warp time when I played against Chaos Space Marines.

3. The Tervigon is a "meh" choice. Sure you get a scoring MC that can generate new units, but the units it generates are usually small in number and you have a 40% chance to burn out the ability every time you use it. Not to mention that if the Tervigon dies (which isn't hard, see below) then you run the risk of killing all of your scoring units within 18". Top that off with Catalyst being a psychic power and can be shut down, and you have a boatload of points that may not contribute anything to the game.

4. Monstrous Creatures are fragile and expensive. Carnifexes fall before almost every other armies heavy assault units. In my test game against the Wolves, Logan and a small Terminator unit of 4 was able to take down one with full Carnifex in combat before it had a chance to swing. MCs also fall to the massive amount of fire from other armies. When you have 10 missile launchers from Long Fangs hitting your MCs, even with cover, it sheds wounds quickly.

5. Trygons are good, but tricky to use. One game I deployed it too aggressively and it lost 5 wounds before it had a chance to move. The other game I was too conservative with it and my opponent was able to avoid it hitting anything vital. Good deployment can make the creature a non-issue. I did played that you can bring a unit with it the turn you arrive, and that is what I am finding it's main strength to be.

6. Spore Pods are amazing. They are fragile and are easy kill points, but they provide critical cover, and can deliver a massive amount of additional shooting to your army.

7. Hive Guard are another "meh" choice. I could barely cause any damage to tanks with them over the course of three games. I think they are a unit that you either take in numbers (like 6 of them) or you don't take at all.

This is still me adapting, but I am enjoying the army and the challenge it is giving me.

That's really interesting.
I heard that Tervigons are awesome. But this is obviously not the case.
MC are fragile? Possible due to their 3+ saves?
Hive Guard are looking good on paper, too. But even with BS 4 its hard to take down tanks if you only have a few of them.

Tervigons are good, but as support units.

A long tyranid thread that hasn't circled the drain of crapptitude? XD

As for the above list: have you considered multiple mawlocs to deal with the long fangs? deep strike right on top of them, kill a few with the blast more than likely, you'll only eat a few rockets, and then assault the remainder or if you've caused enough casualities reburrow from wence you came, for about 350 points you could negate the rocket launchers entirely, jam the extra points into some more anti tank, they are about equally tough as a trygon for less points, just poorer in close combat.

then you'd have to deal with the raiders another way that isn't carnifexen I think zoan's with the FNP could do the job and maybe survive the inhabitants charge, ideally you want to surround the raider with termagants to possible force the squad inside to auto-die or be within charge range and let the zoans pop -> bugs charge.

Also, i would always, always give a warrior brood a heavy weapon for minor allocation shanagins.

also remember synapse, its not the old codex, virtually everything has a chance of going crazy and eating the closest model (even your trygon unless it was an alpha)

Nurglitch wrote:It strikes me that Terminators will have a harder time with hordes of poisonous little bugs than with big bugs or rending bugs. Not only will enough attacks eventually penetrate their Terminator Armour, but it will render Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers inefficient wastes of points Congratulations, your Wolf Guard Terminator with a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shield just juiced two Hormagaunts.

As I said in a previous thread, in a test game I had a unit of 20 Hormagaunts with adrenal glands slay 5 Terminators (whammied down to WS1) on the charge at I6. And the beauty was that storm shields wouldn't have mattered a bit. The more I tinker with army lists, the more I'm trying to work little bugs in for matchups just like that one.

Mahu's new list

I like that list and please let us know how it does.

The tyrannofex is definitely getting a 2nd look from me. The capsule cannon may not be uber but the 48" range is huge. And he might be expensive but T6 W6 Save 2+ is nothing to scoff at.

Also I am interested to hear how the scytal stealers work for you. I can see them as a nice value buy with a nifty boost against transports, but I secretly hope they don't work well (already have 60 stealers built that will never have scytals )

The more I tinker with army lists, the more I'm trying to work little bugs in for matchups just like that one.

Yeah it has been my experience with the current dex that the super killy MCs just don't cut it against assault terminators. You need volume of attack and/or cheap wounds with maybe a counter charge from the big guys later. The trick will be getting that to happen before the little guys are wiped (assuming you are not running a horde army).

winterman wrote:Also I am interested to hear how the scytal stealers work for you. I can see them as a nice value buy with a nifty boost against transports, but I secretly hope they don't work well (already have 60 stealers built that will never have scytals

What is the cost for upgrading stealers with poison sacs vs scything talons. When I ran the wounds inflicted to point cost ratios, the poison sacs had to be 3 pts and the talons 1 point for them to have the same value added?

I think that the value of the warriors in pods, and the carnifexes in pods will be more apparent as the codex gets played.
The deathleaper is great, it really screws up those psy hoods... spacewolves are that exception, their autonegate is pretty powerful especially against the nids.
Hordes of little bugs, supported by one or two tervigons will become a "core" i think. The more I see and read, the more I feel like this codex is full of crazy combos. So far I have not seen a be all end all combo... although there do seem to be a few "weaker" options. Nevertheless, I have high hopes, and I don't even play the bugs.

Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

The tyrannofex is definitely getting a 2nd look from me. The capsule cannon may not be uber but the 48" range is huge. And he might be expensive but T6 W6 Save 2+ is nothing to scoff at.

I think it's a better deal over Carnifexes with Heavy Venom Cannons. Supporting a ground element and adding a small amount of anti-tank shooting in the process looks extremely good.

I mean think about it. Two Carnifexes with Heavy Venom Cannons are 360 points. For a a little over a Hundred Points less, I reduce the amount of Kill Points I give up. I have a creature with a 2+ save which is huge in this codex, I have potentially the same damage out put at range, and I am only 2 toughness 6 wounds down.

The Carnifex has a better CC profile then it, but I can park the thing in the center of my lines, FNP it with a Tervigon, and I can absorb a great deal of fire power.

Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

I went with Scything Talons because it seems like a better way to keep the unit cheap and up it's efficiency. Toxin and Adrenals seem a lot more situational then I would like as the Scything Talons may only give a minimal upgrade, but one that is always on. Plus, I may have inherited a bunch of Scything Talon Genestealers back when they where not that popular.

How many MCs can you fit into the FOC now?

It used to be 8 before right? 2 HQ, 3 Elite and 3 Heavy?

2 in HQ, 3 in Troops, 3 in Fast Attack, and 9 in Heavy. but they're gonna cost you.

Technically 17 (2 HQ, 3 Troop tervigons -- requiring 3 termagant units, 3 Harpies and 3x3 Heavy Carnifex broods).

You'll never see that build fielded though as min cost with no upgrades is about 2900 points. At that point you are probably play apoc with no FOC (so max allowed is kinda moot).

winterman wrote:Technically 17 (2 HQ, 3 Troop tervigons -- requiring 3 termagant units, 3 Harpies and 3x3 Heavy Carnifex broods).

You'll never see that build fielded though as min cost with no upgrades is about 2900 points. At that point you are probably play apoc with no FOC (so max allowed is kinda moot).

Sounds like the same idea as Black Templar and their potential of a dozen LRC in a single FOC game.

So... according to the new space wolf FAQ, GW says that furious charge DOES trigger off of counter-attack.

Tervigon farms with hive tyrant preferred enemy batteries just went from good to, well, really good.

Charging an 11 man termagant unit with the combo in place triggers 22 initiative 5 strength 4 poisoned attacks with preferred enemy. At 5 points per model (or free). That's going to make assaulting the tyranid wall a bit difficult.

Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

Depends on several factors. You can kill the Tervigon first, robbing them of all their CC benefit, and cause a bunch of wounds when he goes pop. If they're strung out from the Tervigon enough, their 6" Counter Charge move could bring them outside of the 6" range of the Tervigon's Toxin Sac and Adrenal Gland granting goodness.

Just read the local store's preview copy. The wording on the Hive Guard's impaler cannon was pretty explicit that even when fired indirectly, enemy units receive cover saves from terrain they are either in or adjacent too. Its still a great weapon system, but well placed transports can mitigate alot of its indirect badness.

The MCs looked great, but what really struck me was all the synergy that can be generated by having the big guys support the little guys. Mahu and Shep have hit on it in this thread and Shep's bat reps, but I felt the need to reemphasize. The whole codex seems to be geared to an "every bug has its role" type system. As a Marine gun line player, the immeadiate list that jumped out of me is a list with a Venomthrope, 3 Zoanthropes, 3 HG, at least one Tervigon and then a swarm of little bugs (50/50 mix of Termagaunts and Hormogaunts). It'll cost right around 1000 points to put 78-88 models on the board as a starting core. The Tervigon and Venomthrope make the little guys ridiciliously tough and the Zoansthropes and Hive Guard provide a core of anti-tank shooting. Flavor in HQ, Heavy and Genestealers to taste and you've got a decently fast list that will be incredibly tough to pry off objectives or just outright kill.

The Pyrovore was also very interesting with its heavy flamer and power weapon, but the minimal attacks and short range make it seem a little "meh." Could be a great unit though if your local meta has alot of orcs or drop pod lists.

Aduro wrote:I plan on taking two Venomthropes for my foot slogging list. They're going to give saves to my Gaunts and Big Guys. The mid size creatures shouldn't need their help as they'll be getting cover from the Gaunts. If people shoot the Venomthropes, they should be getting a 4+ save from the Gaunts, and it's that many less shots at the Big Guys either way.

My biggest fear is going to be Blast weapons. With so many bonuses for keeping your guys near each other, it's just going to be one big cluster frak, begging your opponent to toss pie plates at you.

I'm doing about the same. I have one pre-ordered and i know i am going to need more than one. Here is what my list is going to look like potentially:

HQ: Tyrant or Alpha warrior, possibly the gargoyle special character.

Elites: 2-3 venomthropes
2-4 zoanthropes
death leaper or lictors
Troops:

Tervigon
tervigon
30x termagants
30x termagants
either warriors, more termagants, rippers, or hormagaunts.

Fast attack:
2x big ole' brood of gargolyes 20-30 probably

Heavy support:
a trygon or two
possibly biovores depending how good they are in testing

it seems pretty ramshackle at this point, i don't really know what to do for my heavy support options.

Don't overlook the Tyranofex. Two Str10 shots, lobbed at a range of 48", with no penalty on the vehicle damage chart, by a critter with T6, W6 and a 2+ Sv. If he gets in close, he also has an 18" range Assault 4 OR Large Blast shot and a Template weapon, plus Three S6 Monstrous Creature attacks. He looks like a world of hurt to me.

Depends on the price they want for him, I guess.

Mahu wrote:I went with Scything Talons because it seems like a better way to keep the unit cheap and up it's efficiency. Toxin and Adrenals seem a lot more situational then I would like as the Scything Talons may only give a minimal upgrade, but one that is always on. Plus, I may have inherited a bunch of Scything Talon Genestealers back when they where not that popular.

I can see the point of using them, just because you have them. However looking at the math I prefer naked Stealers, but there is not much difference...

Ten naked Genestealers get an average 20 hits on the charge, Nine Taloned Stealers get an average 21 hits.
So you are giving up one life for an average of 1/2 an extra wound per assault and some protection from bad dice rolls.

Land Raiderish price tag I hear, which sounds about right compared to the prices on everything else. He's cheaper than two Fexes with Heavy Venom Cannons, though not as good in HtH.

The more I am building lists, the more I am finding that there really aren't any bad units in the codex just like there isn't any great units in the codex either.

Even the units that the Internet are foaming at the mouth over (such as Hive Guard, Zoenthropes, Tervigons) are not mandatory choices. I am not finding how 3 or 6 or 9 Hive Guard are a de facto choice. Investing that many points in units that can prove to be useless against Land Raider spam isn't a winning strategy. Just like massive Zoenthropes can easily be shut down by Rune Priests or Eldar.

What I am finding in the codex is a great emphasis on synergies between units. You need support elements, just like you need combat elements, just like you need shooty elements.

It's just finding the balance between all of those concepts that build successful Tyranid lists.


On the Tyrannofex, I am going to see if I can actually make a Battle Report this weekend with my proposed Tyrannofex supported by Tervigon army and see how it plays out. I am hoping it will be either against our area's extremely good Guard player, our good Ork player, or our good Space Wolf player. All lists that give me concern for different reasons.

winterman wrote:Scytals are 2, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are 3.

You still get a bit of a boost to kill efficieny vs MEq even at 2 points per scytal, but also getting about a 14% boost in the chance to pop transports per attack. Not huge but nids can use every little bit in that department. Furious charge is definitely the best upgrade for transport killing but the MEq killing boost is only on the charge. So I dunno, I can see the scytals being an option for all around boosting.

Thanks on the points: Based on that update, I get the following data: The tables can be easily read by hitting quote and reviewing my post in the dialogue box!
Assuming stealers get the charge

Genestealers VS Marines
Base Pts # Kills Ratio PTS/Kills
Naked 14.00 0.56 25.20
Poisoned 17.00 0.83 20.40
Scytails 16.00 0.65 24.69
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.97 19.54


The lower the ratio of pts to kills the greater the value (more bang for your buck). Naked has a ratio of 25 (or it takes 25 pts to kill 1 SM in CC). Scytails take 24.7 points...not much of a change. Whereas Poisoned only takes 20.4 . So how does this play out:

Genstealers Type # models Pts/Unit Kills/Unit
Naked 10 140.00 5.56
Poisoned 8 136.00 6.67
Scytails 9 144.00 5.83
Scytails & Poisoned 7 133.00 6.81

There isn't a huge difference between Poisoned and "Scytails + Poisoned" even though "Scytails & Poisoned" has the lowest ratio at 19.5 pts per kill. Now these ratios don't predict the vulnerability of the unit in question so the marginal gain you get, say in taking "Scytails + Poisoned" over Poisoned, might not make up for the added vulnerability of a 19 pt genestealer. Even if you look at Poisoned VS Naked, you are getting 1 extra MEQ kill in CC with poisoned but are giving up 2 wounds in the process .

In regards to popping rhinos:
Assumning the Rhino moved 6"
Here I am comparing models cost vs the number of rolls on the Damage Chart

Base Pts # Rolls DC Ratio PTS/Rolls DC
Naked 14.00 0.25 56.00
Poisoned 17.00 0.25 68.00
Scytails 16.00 0.29 54.86
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.29 65.14

Well the best option (so far) is Scytails it takes 55 pts of scytail models to get 1 roll on the damage chart, compared to Naked which is a only a point or so more .

How about popping a rhino!

Base Pts # Kills Ratio PTS/Kills
Naked 14.00 0.08 166.84
Poisoned 17.00 0.08 202.59
Scytails 16.00 0.10 163.03
Scytails & Poisoned 19.00 0.10 193.60

Scytails is the lowest with 163 pts to pop a 35 pt transport vs naked which only 4 points higher. Or look at it this way.

Genstealers Type # models Pts/Unit Kills/Unit
Naked 10 140.00 0.84
Poisoned 8 136.00 0.67
Scytails 9 144.00 0.88
Scytails & Poisoned 7 133.00 0.69

Dear heavens I hate transports .

In summary, I personally wouldn't take Scytails to increase my chance of killing Marines or damaging Rhinos over plain old naked. I would consider taking toxin sacs (poisoned) on stealers to kill Marines.

Need to look at Furious charge and finish my little comparison at a later date.

Mahu wrote:The biggest thing versus Space Wolves is shutting down the Rune Priests, though that is hard to accomplish. Like I said, at least against Hoods, you have the Deathleaper giving you the D3 advantage. Against Space Wolves they can put multiple Runic Weapons in range and have two chances to shut that down each power you cast. I haven't found Jaws to be that troublesome against Space Wolves as you can Deathleaper the Rune Priests leadership and put a Shadows of the Warp on them easily. It never got off once when I played against the Wolves. My main problem was dealing with Logan and his Terminator retinue.

My area is competitive (which I prefer), but tends to get stuck in a rut. There isn't a lot of creative builds here, so I can at least bank on expectations.

Runic weapons don't stack vs psychic powers.

Mahu as stated in the previous post the SW cannot stack the 4+ versus psychic powers with their rune swords... Check out the new SW FAQ. That will make a huge diiference in regards to the effectiveness of your Zoies versus AV14. Go tear up some SW!

G

Nurglitch wrote:Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

They are... if they aren't enjoying the 5+ cover save from their new buddies and FNP from the Tervigon. From what I've seen if you're shooting the gaunts in front that's what you'll be faced with.

An example on average

8 marines rapid fire - 16 shots 10.56 hits
10.56 hits - 6.9 wounds

Now add in

5+ cover - 4.6 wounds
FNP - 2.3 wounds

That doesn't include special / heavy weapon of course. I've seen the Tervigon/5+ cover/gaunt thing in a couple games and the vulnerability to small arms fire can be reduced by quite a bit. Additionally in the armies I saw there were considerably more than 11 termagants when they got in rapid fire range. Killing the 5+ cover save granting unit (who's name I can't seem to remember) becomes a priority IMHO.

Nurglitch wrote:Still, 11 Termagants are so much bolter-bait.

You mean the [/i]free][/i] 11 termagaunts are so much bolter-bait.

Just keep tervigons in the corner and spawn until you can't spawn any more.

ramongoroth:

Okay, let's go with flamer-bait then. I think it's time for Space Marine players to invest in that Whirlwind they've been meaning to. Or a Thunderfire Cannon.

imweasel:

I don't have the codex, or even read it, but I'd speculate that there's an opportunity cost to having a Tervigon just sit and sh!t Termagants.

Lots of interesting things to consider. Keep experimenting and providing info please. Does anyone know if the rumour that a gaunt brood can get a flamer is true? And if so, does anyone see any use based on whayever the cost is? I'm thinking that a unit of termagants that gets hosed on its way to the enemy might still have a couple guys left and if one had the flamer than might be able to do a little damage. Just wondering

Gaunts can have one flamer per 10 Gaunts in the brood. It's Str3, but rolls to wound vs the targets Str rather than Toughness. Don't know the point costs on it.

It's only S2, and triples the cost of the gant that takes it.

So hold on here: does it test on their strength by Higher S = bad? Or is Higher S = good? With a name like stranglethorn or some such thing, it is easy to imagine a vine that constricts more the harder you fight it. That would make this weapon very potent.

You roll your Str vs their Str as if it were their Toughness, so the lower their Str the better for you. About the only thing I can think of where this is beneficial, or even really matters, is vs Orks.

Orks? What about IG? They have low S models.

But their S is the same as their T.

Gornall wrote:But their S is the same as their T.

Bingo.

If it means anything to you, it also causes pinning. Not sure how good that would be, since if the enemy is that close already, they're probably going to get charged anyway. It would give the gants some cover too, since there would be a squad in front of them now...

Hm. It could rob an enemy of the charge, I suppose. I guess it isn't any less effective against the usual targets than a normal flamer, right? It causes pinning too, which is interesting. Do the enemy get armor saves? Also, do strength boosters like Powerfists have an effect on the weapon's effectiveness?

Oooo, Pinning. That's real good. Why? Because units don't get the Int 10 from you charging thru Difficult Terrain if their Pinned. Poor man's frag grenades?

Aduro wrote:Oooo, Pinning. That's real good. Why? Because units don't get the Int 10 from you charging thru Difficult Terrain if their Pinned. Poor man's frag grenades?

You've got your editions mixed up. In this edition models are reduced to I 1 if they make a difficult terrain test as part of an assault. However, you are correct that they do not suffer this penalty against units which are gone-to-ground or previously locked in combat.

OK, I didn't get a lot of playtesting in this week, but I did test the new list I posted in this thread versus a pretty scary IG list.

Here is my list again (roughly):

-HQ-

Alpha Warriors w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes

Deathleaper

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts

Tervigon

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in Pod

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Capsule Cannon

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod


I played against our local competitive IG player (I would consider him up there with Shep as far as level of competitiveness, he has placed high at several adepticons, etc.)

We played Spearhead and Kill Points

His list (of the top of my head):

Creed in Command Squad w/ 2 Plasma, Lascannon in Chimera

Harker in a Squad w/ 2 Flamers, 2 Melta

Infantry Squad he blobbed up with multiple heavy and special weapons, Power Weapons, Commissar

Some empty Chimera

Smaller PBS in Chimera

Large Conscript Squad

Vendetta Filled with a Veteran Squad

Outflanking Banewolf

Devildog

Medusa

2 Hydras

Demolisher


So the list I was facing was a pretty good take all comers list with plenty of high strentgh low AP shooting to take me down. I don't have a full battle report to write, so I will simply go through all the units that I fielded and give you my thoughts:


Alpha Warriors w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter riding with the Warriors in a Pod = Excellent unit. One of my favorites in the dex. The Alpha Warrior giving the Warriors a Balistic Skill upgrade basically give you the output of 5 Marine Heavy Bolters the turn you land. THe Alpha Warrior paid of in the squad two as I was ablt to absord a few meltagun hits and keep the squad alive longer. In susequent turns, I had them split up and assault multiple targets. The Alpha Warrior is scary enough to tackle IG units himself.

3 Zoenthropes - Worked Rather well, I deployed them in the front of my force to provide cover to the Tyrannofex, and gave them FNP in the early game. They where able to take two rounds of shooting that kept the rest of my stuff alive long enough, and popped a Chimera. So even though in this game they didn't "make their points back" they still traded Kill Point for Kill Point and gave the rest of my army much needed protection.

Deathleaper - Didn't do much this game, I was a little too aggressive with is deployment. If I would have been a little wiser, I would have set him up far enough away from his lines to keep him alive long enough to precision strike the Carnifex that waited till turn 4 to show up. IG is not an army he is particularly good against, but I still love him against almost everyone else.

10 Termagaunts and Tervigon = Honetly didn't do much besides pass Feel No Pain to a few units and charge conscripts. I am glad I only field one, as I can see multiples be a liablity in Kill Point Games.

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = Loved them. They provide a much needed assault element that my other lists lacked. I of course outflanked with them, and two of the units hit the side I wanted. My opponent used his conscripts to "block" the side he was closer two, so the first squad had no choice but to assault them. They one massacred forward and died to flamers. The second squad came in, assaulted Harkers squad and the conscripts, one the combat, assaulted a Chimera, didn't do anything to it and ran off the table from a tank shock. THe third came in on the opposite side of the table and died promptly the next turn to an outflanking Banewolf.

Tyrannofex w/ Capsule Cannon = Absolutely love this unit. My only mistake was I should have been a little more aggressive with him, because he has a crap ton of anti-infantry shooting on top of his big gun. So if I ran him at least once, I could have been punishing squads I was popping out of transports at that point.

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod = MVPs of the game. Period. They are the true tank busters of the Tyranid codex. I was able to uses cover and my pods to keep them alive the turn they drop, and from there I was just running through the tanks in his lines. One Carnifex accounted for The Demolisher, the Hydras, and two Chimeras. The re-rolls and your high str. MC attacks are what really makes him usesful and allows him to fill a roll in the codex that other MCs can't.


I am still shifting points around, but I think I am happy with my list. I have just enough of everything to be able to be competitive.

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod

I actually went to check the nid codex today and here's my few quick observations:

The Mawloc is simply insanely good in comparison to the other heavy support choices. I think a lot of people have misunderstood the damage it does when it appears. I first thought that you place the S6 AP2 ordnance template where the Mawloc appears and the models underneath are hit, but that's not the way it works at all. Units that are touched in the slightest take hits equal to the number of models in the unit. This of course means, that one Mawloc that deep strikes between two units of 30 Boyz inflicts 60 S6 hits overall (30 against both unit). Three Mawlocs can destroy nearly anything that forgot their transport home. Yeah, bring on the 'all new jump pack Blood Angels'. Does anyone know if the Mawloc regenerates (if you buy the extra ability) wounds even when burrowed and off the table? Anyway, the Mawlocs solve a lot of problems that I first thought the Nids would have. 10 storm shielded Assault Terminators hit with three Mawloc terror from the deep attacks loses every single model (9.9999), and the very same Mawlocs excel against hordes too.

Secondly, the Carnifex is just as useless as everyone thinks. There's simply no reason for it having only 4 wounds while Tervigons, Mawlocs and everything else has 6 wounds, except for the sake of selling more of everything else and pissing off all old Nid players.

Third, the elites slot is really crowded with nice units. However the synergy between 150 point Hive Guard units busting transports and Mawlocs eating everything inside is there to be used. The Doom is a cool buy for 90 points but it takes a valuable slot.

Termagants are actually quite good in large units since they get furious charge and counter attack etc from their babysitting Tervigons. 30 Termagants with the special abilities and FNP from the Tervigon can deal with quite a large squad of Assault Marines/Grey Hunters/whatever in close combat. The Hive Tyrant didn't impress me at all to be honest, but it looks like the 'template' to start with is 3x Tervigon, 3x Termagants, 6-9x Hive Guard, 3x Mawloc + a HQ choice.

By the way Mahu, what the heck is the 'capsule cannon' that you are talking about? The Tyrannofex entry that I read had the option for a weapon called 'rupture cannon'.

capsule cannon was the German translation for rupture cannon it seams


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:IUnits that are touched in the slightest take hits equal to the number of models in the unit.

O Bloody hell

what, equal to # of models? That is so....bull~~~

I thought it was the number of models that had to displace because of the appearance of the Mawloc, not the total number of models in the unit....?

That would make more sense.

It's just models that are touched by the template. In the german codex it's a complicated wording for, as I've read it, a pretty simple thing: You place the template and every model that is touched by the template is hit.

Greets
Schepp himself

yeah the wording for the Mawlocs template seems to be overly complicated. it is just the # of hits to the unit = the # of models completely or partially hit.

Alpha warrior is really the MVP of the codex imo. Playing against it and a little with it on Vassal it really just is kick ass. Wait for 125 points I get a model w/ Furious Charge , Boneswords, and Regenerate. Yes Please.

Your playtesting is helping me quite a bit Mahu.

My gaming group learns way too fast, and I've lost my last two testing games.

My playstyle has been gravitating me towards slow and hard to kill, and that just doesn't work against IG/witch hunters and probably tau.

I lost to space wolves as well. Genestealers losing a frag grenade option has shown itself to be particularly devastating. If you field genestealers, and you face space wolves, and there is 25% terrain on the table, they are not going to do anything.

I'm not really that interested in running an aggro nid list, but through reading your findings and having tested my own aggro list, it looks like thats the best bet versus IG, and it just follows that its the best bet against full mech armies.

Don't get me wrong, I have fielded hive guard in 4 out of 5 test games and they have exceeded my expectations every single time... the ones that are starting to reveal that they are coming up short are the hive tyrant and the carnifex. In my last game against full mech gunline, the fexes and hive tyrant were doing exactly what I wanted them to do, suppressing long range firepower and keeping transports shaken and stunned. Ultimately I was going to use them as guards for the objectives, be ready to charge any mobile troop transports and take heat off of my hormagaunts. Well, I got too far forward after I charged, and i lost one carnifex and one tyrant + one guard to special weapon and exorcist shooting. I was still in position to win 2-1, but then my opponent politely reminded me that my hormagaunts were out of synapse. Two failed IB tests later and I lost the game. So the hive tyrant can't really be used aggressively in some cases, and that would be fine if he was 160 points out the door, but at 240 with adrenal venom cannon and preferred enemy, with another 60 for a tyrant guard, he needs to be free to charge or he just isn't going to be worth it. He was MUCH better when facing an army i can outshoot, like Som's ironclad/termie list. But I am switching to tyranid primes for my next wave of games i think.

So, we can kill transports now... thats good, but what I need to have on the table in addition to that transport kill is a unit that can quickly kill celestians/veterans/command squads/tactical squads/fire dragons the second they show up on table. or to make a list that is completely immune to special weapons, like running masses of little guys. My trygon, carnifex, and hive tyrant were taken down too fast by meltas, plasma and heavy support.

Any thoughts there?

Mahu wrote:

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod = MVPs of the game. Period. They are the true tank busters of the Tyranid codex. I was able to uses cover and my pods to keep them alive the turn they drop, and from there I was just running through the tanks in his lines. One Carnifex accounted for The Demolisher, the Hydras, and two Chimeras. The re-rolls and your high str. MC attacks are what really makes him usesful and allows him to fill a roll in the codex that other MCs can't.

That is encouraging. I'd be curious to see if it does as well against a Tau or Eldar mech list which are more mobile.

I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

As a slightly OT comment, I would like to say that I really enjoyed reading the Tyranid codex this past weekend. While I'm not a good enough meta-gamer to tell how powerful the codex will be in game-play, I found it really interesting. I would love to find a way to play with all of the units just from sheer interesting factor.

And, after reading this new codex, there's one rumor that I really hope pans out as being true. Months ago, I had read that Cruddace was doing the Dark Eldar codex. If that's actually the case, I'm kind of excited. If the 'Nid codex is any measure, a Cruddace written DE codex would be much more interesting that the current one.

Well I was reading the English version of the codex, not the German one. However, as I was reading it the GW staff plus a few others were discussing possible lists in the usual frenzied nerd manner so I might've read it wrong. You know, someone tells you how it works, then you check it yourself and agree that it's the way it works but it's only because someone told it to you before you actually read it. I'll re-check tomorrow. I wouldn't be surprised if the English version was different to the German one though, considering all the re-prints of the English version and other differences that the books obviously have.

EDIT:

Now that I'm thinking of it, I very clearly remember the Mawloc rule saying: Every unit hit by the template suffers wounds equal to the number of models in the unit. I'm pretty certain of it, but like I said I'll check back in this thread in about 14 hours and correct my mistake if there is one. If I read it wrong it must be in the end of the sentence, like, 'equal to the number of models in the unit <that were displaced>' or something and I just didn't read it to the end.

Hollismason wrote:I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

I kinda agree with this sentiment.

Saldiven wrote:

Hollismason wrote:I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

I kinda agree with this sentiment.

For a lot of us, we are still laden with 4th Ed Carnifexes that suddenly got nerfed by a new 50 dollar kit. I already have 130 dollars worth of carnifexes, so I am not real inclined to spend another 100 on that organization slot. I'd rather buy more zoeys or some of the new hive guard, or more gaunts for the swarm.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
For a lot of us, we are still laden with 4th Ed Carnifexes that suddenly got nerfed by a new 50 dollar kit. I already have 130 dollars worth of carnifexes, so I am not real inclined to spend another 100 on that organization slot. I'd rather buy more zoeys or some of the new hive guard, or more gaunts for the swarm.

This. I still have some IG units to buy before I bust out my nids again. I'd buy venomthropes before Trigons. I'd also have to playtest a bit before I decide what flavor of Trigon I'd want.

I only ever purchased two of the plastic Fexes. One was slowly biggerized over the years and has already been made into a Tyranofex in anticipation of the new book, and the other was repostured into a Hive Tyrant when first purchased, again years ago. All I've got for Carnifexes at the moment are two of the original metal ones with current large plastic Scything Talons, and an Old One Eye in pieces around my living room somewhere.

I think everyone needs to re-adjust what they do with Carnifexs. Obviously they are not the same power houses they used to be, but certainly they are not useless.

Lol, the original metal ones were certainly.... unique. I'd love to see some pictures of those, Aduro!

I have some more IG stuff I want too, mainly valks or hellhound variants, but the main point against buying a bunch more 'nids is that right now the prices are being driven up for the release of the new codex. I'd rather wait until people get tired of playing with them, kind of like you are seeing now with the IG. It'll be a lot cheaper 2-3 months down the road when they start releasing more new codexes.

I'm sure we will see a large amount wholesale nids go on ebay very soon :p

How does deep striking for the Mawloc work exatcly? Can you just say I am going to deep strike on top of a unit?

Yes, CKO, that is kind of the point. It deepstrikes and displaces a Large Blast when it erupts from the ground.

I understand the tactic I did not know if the rules permitted it, I was wondering if you can do this with all units that dont have to worry about mishaps?

Picture of one in my gallery.

CKO wrote:I understand the tactic I did not know if the rules permitted it, I was wondering if you can do this with all units that dont have to worry about mishaps?

sure you can, but since no other unit but a mawlok could be placed in such a way it would be destroyed.

I see where you are going with this, drop pods and such /can/ mishap, but have a rule specifically stating that when they scatter, you reduce the scatter by enough to avoid the mishap.

assuming it hit, you can't reduce the scatter, and the model cannot be placed, you would still mishap, if the unit was immune to mishaps, you still can't place models within 1" of an enemy so it would be destroyed, mawloc avoids this due to moving the enemies out of the way before it is placed.

Are we seeing any units that are "must haves?"

I've not been seeing anyone mention them but gargoyles are ridiculous units and am surprised when i see lists that do not include them.

The Tervigon seems to be everyones MVP that and Deathleaper are both unit that are really so powerful at what they do that you should take them.

Also, deathleaper is pretty good at messing with vehicles.

I think Zoies are a must have unit since heavy mech is the current meta then throw in the Deathleaper as added insurance versus anti psychic enemy units, so I'm planning to run two squads of two Zoies (probably in pods) plus the ubèr Lictor for the boost.

I also see Trygons as an excellent close combat monster that can add synapse plus the Alpha version can shoot well too.

As Mahu has said I am also a big fan of the Alpha Warrior with a retinue of Warriors coming in via a spore.

If you build your army correctly you won't have to rely upon synapse, basic instincts are not quite as bad now but it can still take you out of the game if you aren't careful. So I definitely see a place for genestealers... They can operate independently, outflank and fleet. I think you need three to four units to make them work. I stil think there is a place for taking a Broodlord, yes it's less attacks than three more syctal stealers but the Broodlord is T5 so he can soak up a couple S8+ shots. To me it's just a matter to design your bug list such that there is room for him.

Tyrants are expensive. The best thing I see them bringing to the table is that they can be built as force multipliers.

I don't think anyone has come up with the next generation cookie cutter list but I'm sure we'll see one within the next few months. Hopefully there will be more than one viable build, which I think will most likely be the case.

G

Well, this reply is going to be long... and is pretty much a thread hijack, but this is where the good nid discussion has migrated it seems.

I am up to three really bad beats against mech armies now. We are now rolling for missions, and I've experienced a spearhead and a dawn of war, and neither of those were pretty for my beloved hive guard.

Somnicide figured out nids halfway through our space marine game, and was able to just about beat me. I think we tied with me having a VP advantage. I then faced a space wolf army that was mechanized and my "close combat" units were embarrassed right off the table, and then I've fought Nash's most tuned version of his IG/witch hunter list twice, and he has officially figured out all of the 'wacky' nid units. He is now unbeatable with any of my experimental hybrid lists.

It's amazing how I forget basic tenets of 40k when I'm testing to make a new list. Long range anti-tank is king, period. The net best thing you can take is short range anti-tank. There are also almost zero units in game that can consistently kill vehicles that don't want to be killed in CC. Every tourney player worth his dice knows this stuff. I have a feeling that playing against my tuned IG list would be much WORSE than witch hunters...

Nash reminded me of how I helped him make tourney winning ork armies. I mercilessly destroyed every versin of orks he threw at me with my full mech IG army until he finally bought a rokkit in every slot, took his 30 lootas and either had a full kan wall with rokkits or 5 rokkit battlewagons. Now we split our games, and orks can survive 5th edition tables.

Thanks to tonight's curb stomping, it has dawned on me that although there are a lot of mid tier fun units in the nid book, that'll be great for fun games/apocalypse/planetstrike/cities of death... I have to prepare to face 12+ vehicle armies that can shoot the piss out of me. I have made what I think will be the first and most obvious solid tyranid tourney list... it is way less fun than I was hoping, I had to eliminate a lot of units that I was hoping for, and I'll only play it for tourney prep or at a tourney.

Before I show it off, I want to keep the spirit of Mahu's thread intact, so I'll give my final "what I've learned" unit by unit. I'll only list units that I've played at least one game with here. Be warned, there could be some hyperbole here.... but if you disagree, keep in mind that i've already played 6 full games against tough players, I'm not just theory-hammering this.

HQ

hive tyrant - Since his reserve rule only works if he survives until turn 2, understand taht against any army with even remotely respectable shooting (every tourney army you'll face except demons) this guy is literally a 230 point BS3 lascannon. He shined in exactly one game, where he was able to give preferred enemy to two units of supergaunts. I'm giving up on him for now. He was helping me lose in every game I faced against mech.

tyrant guard - way overcosted at 60 points. Does not have the statistics necessary to warrant his cost. Also it is very quickly to get sucked into the void of 'keeping the tyrant alive'. My last list variant wanted to keep "hive commander" in play so badly against gunline, that i ended up buying all three tyrant guard. That means I bought a 350 point BS3 lascannon.

tervigon - Pretty solid. I was down on it for a bit, and my opinion of it is still grounded in reality. I amnot beaming over this unit. It scares the HELL out of scrubby players, which I don't need help beating, but if your opponent is a regular 40k player and owns a nid codex, he is going to know what to do if he sees these on the table. I think this is the best HQ choice, and probably the best troops choice, for what I want my HQs and troops to do, which is just to survive. Would I rather have troops and HQ that had excellent mid to long range anti-tank? Absolutely, but thats not the nid book.

ELITES

zoanthropes - well, a drop pod with three super meltagunners? Ok, I'll take it. Not because it's a fun unit to play with, but because I have been get owned so viciously by exorcists and vendettas that I absolutely need something to shut them down asap. IG shoots far too well to assume you can weather 3 rounds of shooting and kill off their vehicles with midrange shooting.

hive guard - In the games where I could draw my opponent in to me they were excellent, top tier. Also, in every pitched battle I played I would call them the superior unit in the codex. Then I played dawn of war and spearhead. In both cases their short range came up and bit me on the ass. 66% of their missions they won't have a shot they want for probably the first two turns, people who play versus IG already know that that is far too late.

deathleaper - he might actually make my list at some point, it will be soloey based on particular metagame. Here's my final take on him. Take his d3 leadership away and he is pyrovore level of unplayability. His pheromones will only have a 50/50 chance of having any game impact at all, and his actual tangible impact as a model is limited to finding the rare unit that he can charge. For psychic hood disruption, taking a third zoanthrope accomplishes the same effect, overwhelm the hood, kill the land raider, then clean up. The null zone librarian is so ridiculously popular in LA and arizona, that he might just make it. But it is 140 points of insurance against 2 out of 16 codexes. Runes of warding still shuts me down, deathleaper or not.

TROOPS

First off, when i say that the troops suck in this codex, I don't want anyone to thnk that I mean that Robin failed in writing the book. I am of the opinion that everyones troops suck in 40k, and I have a very low opinion of armies that spend more than 750 points on troops. They are supposed to suck, because they can something that no other unit can do. Its better to focus on the survivable troops, and leave the killing to more capable units in other slots. With no access to missile launchers or lascannons, meltaguns or multi-meltas, then i'm looking for short ranged counter-assault and survivability. And to spend as little on that as I can. Trying to purchase a troop in the nid codex for the purposes of destroying enemy units is ice skating uphill, I don't know why I didn't just understand that before I tried.

genestealers - brace for hyperbole. No frag grenades? They are on the shelf, for a long, long time. I charged a 10 man grey hunter unit with 10 poisoned stealers, one of my stealers was going to have to pass through the corner of a ruined building... this triggers a test, this means my initiative was 1. 30 attacks at I4 later, I'm out my 170 point genestealer unit. I ran them naked as well, and outflanked into two vehicle charges, once into an immolator that I needed 6s to hit.... forget it. I was all lined up nice and neat for the unscathed immolator to fry the unit right off the table. Next was an exorcist that only move 1". Well, I couldn't permantently destroy that consistently either. And was unceremoniously flamered off table. They are a strictly anti-nfantry unit. And in the game I'm playing, thats not acceptable.

hormagaunts - Although also a strictly anti-infantry/MC unit I actually never got mad at these guys. In a different metagame, where mech wasn't as good as it was, or with nids having a bit more shooting, these guys are excellent. Once I squared off against good opponents, I couldn't keep synapse up with the speed of the homies, and they'd get turned into instincitive leadership 5. and then handled. When you go instinctive on turn 5, and rush off the objective to charge an empty rhino, you lose. I'm not giving up on this unit, but I just can't see them thriving in an environment where there are heavy flamer toting transports for 55 points available almost without restriction.

termagants - without tervigon? worst unit in codex. With tervigon? probably all the counterassault you'll need to take and hold objectives. Take them, take a tervigon and then protect the tervigon.

warriors - nothing long range enough (regular venom cannon is a terrible gun) to entice me to take them on foot, not survivable enough for my playstyle coming out of a drop pod. They have the potential to make the lists of competitive players, but I want to get those devourers onto transport vehicles, on side armor of chimeras, and every army you face is going to have enough firepower to either torrent down all of your wounds or just insta-kill you out with spare meltaguns that they don't actually need against your army. gearing a troop choice up for CC doesn't add up. I don't want my troops getting themselves killed off, and you can't really make a warrior unit that can realistically tackle bloodcrushers or thunder hammer terminators, so just don't try, IMO.

FAST ATTACK

I actually haven't played with any fast attack, but after playing with units that have comparable damage output and survivability, I am confident in my opinions of some of the units.

raveners - why robin? why didn't you let me buy adrenal glands. tis is probably my biggest shock and dissapointment in the whole codex. this unit went for an automatic 15-of list core, to a "fun games" only unit. It sounds unbelievable that a single pip of strength can do that to a unit, but in a world of rear armor 10 vehicles, strength 4... rending or not, doesn't give you enough damage for you to not get wiped out to counter-shooting. It pains me, but I am not interested in this unit.

gargoyles - In another meta-game, where full mech didn't exist, what a fun unit. How long ago was everyone so hot on the stormboys? and they had a powerklaw! infantry can't charge tanks, and if you can't kill them on the charge, and you dont have a heavy weapon or a meltagun, then in how many games are you going to be fielding an impotent unit?

harpy - 170 point twin-linked lascannon? I'll take a pass. I wonder how thats gonna match up to the three twin linked lascannons IG gets for 130.

spore mines - maybe with extra points, but as of right now, I havent really felt like I have "extra points" just floating around. They are a fun little annoyance, but they don't hurt mech other than to annoy them, and i need every point I can spend.

HEAVY SUPPORT

carnifex - It was my MVP versus raider spam, but in all of the games I played against gunline it was a 195 point lascannon. I have an answer to land raiders elsewhere, so unfortunately, I have to shelf this guy for a while. Although he is very costly, I would compare him favorably to a lascannon dreadnought. More expensive for sure, but i think ultimately more survivable. The trick with the dreadnought is that he can be fielded in a list that has access to a very respectable amount of long range shooting, and when you draw opponents in, his counter-charge is excellent, the carnifex even more so. But nids just can't draw that many armies in. Aggressive space marine armies and demons are about the only thing that have to get that close to fexes. Thats not enough armies for me to be able to field him.

mawloc - I have said in a couple other batreps that this guy is not very good at all in comparison to the trygon. His only purpose is when you want to field a thrid trygon but you are 20 points short

trygon - well, my latest playtest with a full three trygons and 'hive commander' in play showed me what i needed to see. The ugly truth that 6 t6 wounds with a 3+ armor and no cover are NOT enough against a modern, tuned mech army. its just pure math, a combinaton of plasma, melta and heavy support heavy weapons can just take it down, when you get two in one turn, one of them gets to charge, kill a tank that is guaranteed to cost much less than half of its own cost, and then get taken down in the following turn. It's just not functional for me. Its a real shocker too. You need to be able to make saves against IG style firepower. Just taking a wound for every wound applied gets you off table before you've even done something.

tyrannofex - Laughs at missile launchers, which is pretty much THE heavy weapon of 5th edition, also has LONG RANGE ANTI-HEAVY TANK! I need that! a LOT!!!! Exorcists, hydras, manticores, predators, land raiders, every one of these things was trashing me in my test games. the faster I can get rolls on the vehicle damage table on things like vendettas, exorcists, multi-rokkit battlewagons the more liely I'll have an army left by turn 3.


So IMO, thats the dirty truth. The codex has tons of mid-tier fun as hell units, and most casual players will have countless variations with which to play, but mech is freakin GOOD. And you have to bring serious respect for it if you want to play a tourney version of nids....

Ok, my list.... this will give my IG army a run for its money, and it has definitey not given up its matchup against marines...


HQ

tervigon - catalyst, toxin, adrenal, crushing claws

ELITE

3x zoanthropes, mycetic spore

3x zoanthropes, mycetic spore

3x zoanthropes, mycetic spore

TROOP

24x termagants

tervigon - catalyst, toxin, adrenal, crushing claws

HEAVY SUPPORT

tyrranofex - rupture cannon

tyrranofex - rupture cannon


The name of the game is to dominate the table center with the two tervigons and the huge supergant unit. The joy is that in dawn of war I can deploy two MCs and a 24 model screen on table, walk on with tyrranofexes and wait for my zoans to drop in. Spearhead doesn't ruin me because my only anti-tank shooting that I'll deploy on table has 48" range, I'll go dominate the table center with tervigons and supergants, shred transports with my railguns and even more once I get my zoans to come down.

The vehicle containing your psychic hood is getting targeted on turn 1 by tyrranofexes, if it gets successfully killed, then the zoanthropes can land further back and attempt to snipe at the corners of the exposed unit with warp blast, or just land farther away and blast apart the rhinos with warp lance. I'll be keeping a shadow in the warp over rune priests if at all possible, and concentrating firepower on whatever transport he is in with the rupture cannons, once his vehicle is dead, he'll be picked apart by warp blasts that pass his runic weapon.

IG will be losing at least one vendetta a turn, and if I can get at least one zoanthrope unit down on turn 2, then i should have all three dead by turn 3. thats about the only ap2 long range firepower that people have been taking lately with IG except for the occasional executioner. Once the ap2 long range stuff is dead and gone, then killing FNP tervigons or 2+ save tyrannofexes gets a lot harder. If I get first turn, you better reserve your vendettas, and you better hope you roll well on reserves.

24 counter-attacking poisoned furious charging termagants put 18 wounds on THSS before they swing. And there are more behind them. Without rupture cannons you could say that there would be less gants because you'd unload with your LRC, but with 4 rupture cannons targeting it for 2 turns before you can charge, can you guarantee that it will even be alive?


Will my list lose some games to space marines/space wolves/IG. Absolutely, but it is so clearly the best option to fight those three armies that it isn't even a contest.

A change I may potentially make due to my current metagame would be -1 zoanthrope unit and +1 deathleaper. Its pretty techy... and he has pissed me off quite a bit before. But on a good day he can shut down eldrad, rune priest, and librarian, and he can safely challenge space marine scouts, eldar pathfinders, tau pathfinders, imperial guard heavy weapons squads and space marine combat squads without sergeants. He can also brave 50/50 combats versus space marine thunderfire cannons, tau crisis suits and space wolf long fangs. There may be enough of those units, and enough librarians, eldrads and rune priests to make him better than another zoanthrope. If I did include him, that frees up 80 points, if I cut two termagants I would field 3x3 spore mines and call it a day.

Ok, wow, did i type a lot or what. My apologies for the hijacking of Mahu's thread. I'll give it back now. Haha, feel free to disagree with me everyone, I have never been a closed minded poster, but if you do take the tyranid CC route, beware mechanized armies and beware of dawn of war and spearhead.

On the one hand, kind of a downer... On the other, Woo I already built a T-Fex with Bio Cannon over a week ago!

It is so strange to see a Nid army that feels like.....foot Tau

One wonders about how to survive facing a demon army, or turn 2 trukk assault armies, or is that dealt with by the meta? It just doesn't look like that much of a meta-game shifting army when it have to do all this to survive fairly standard all mech army. It also still look like it'd have a not so easy match up against distributed lascannon mech marines even before tuning...if the plan is to silence lascannons early.

It sounds like Nidz are not survivable enough. Wouldn't using deep strike/tunneling/outflanking and gaunt screens help?

G

I like your synopsis Shep. Though I must say I'm disappointed with your review on mawlocs and trygons. I had planned on filling my HS slots with them (though the T-fex is tempting). I must say though that at our FLGS we tend to play less competitive games so perhaps their effectiveness won't be so much of an issue.

I'm very happy with what you said about hormagaunts though. I'm tempted to create (and it's already on paper) a shock list. Dump a load of stuff in pods right into their lines and just leave a tervigon and some gaunts in reserve to claim my own objective (if it is indeed an objective match). Podding units would include a lot of hormagaunts, a tervigon, a tyrant (though I'm really not sure about him yet), deathleaper, 2 mawlocs and a trygona alpha. What do you think...would it be enough to disrupt tau/ig gunlines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should mention tat I'm planning on using the swarmlord...Either that or some warriors with the alpha variant.

Interesting post Shep. Especially that the Tyrranofex is something you rate highly.

@Shep I have been seeing similar posts on YTTH. The Hive Guard unfortunately don't ignore the most common forms of cover for mech...smoke and mech shield walls...that made me a sad panda. My only question is the rupture cannon really that good seeing as it isn't a railgun (not BS 4 or TL, and not AP1). Against cover you only have a 25% chance of scoring a hit and a 12.5% chance of rolling on the damage table against AV14 (LR and Leman Russ). Against a rhino with cover, you have a 25% of rolling on the damage table. Have you playtested with the unit? Can it even reliably stall mech's mobility or shooting while you wait for your Zoes to land? How good are Tervigons and TFex in a scrap if they get charged (or need to charge) by termies, TW or BC?

TBH, when I look at Shep's proposed list, it makes me wonder about how effective it will be I just don't see it having enough staying power. Even with the Tervigons, will there be enough troops to last through the game? It's not that I'm doubting Shep's abilities at all, it's just that I'm wondering if maybe the codex still just can't reliably handle mech armies?

I'm with GBF in that maybe Nids have to leverage more of their deployment options and try to overload on T2+?

I think people in general put too much emphasis on landraiders. Sure they are a big threat but then again you are not going to see them every game. If you overcompensate then it leaves holes elsewhere.

I think the new Nidz are one army that will do better the less you spam units (troops & Zoies in pods being two exceptions).

G

I don't get the hate for Raveners. If they were s5 they'd be penning on 6's, glancing on 5's. s4 with rending has them penning on 6's, not glancing at all. Is the loss of glancing hits really so devastating? In my experience it's the pens that kill the vehicle. They can even pen rear armor 11 tanks if the Guard get cheaky.

Don't worry about hijacking this thread, I am happy that the "truth" is coming out in it.

I will try and keep my reply short:

There are a few points I disagree with you on, this may be based on local meta-game and my personal experiences, but here we go.

1. I still am not a fan of the reliance on the Tervigon. This may be just me, but you play a dangerous game with them. In order for them to fully capitalize on all their buffs, you essentially need to maintain that Gaunt screen within 6", the downside is that Gaunts are not tall enough to adequately screen the creature and give it a cover save, so I have been preferring to run midsized creatures like Zoenthropes on the ground to give them that cover save. I also found that fielding non-gaunt troops can expand my coverage area for objectives. But when you start running things that compacted, it ain't hard for land raiders to tank shock through the gaunts and land Terminators onto the Tervigon, then you take a lot of your Guants with it. Not fun. I have found one to be sufficient. I can advance it up with the rest of my ground forces and buff units where I need to, Or I can sit on my castle in cover and use the rest of my force to keep pressure on my opponent. That is just me.

2. Genestealers, I agree they are a mixed bag, and the lack of a frag grenade option hurts them, but I have been seeing them as good defense against armies that can be more aggressive then Tyranids. I would rather "hide" a unit of Genestealers in my back field, wait till Logan and his crazy bunch gets popped out of their transports, and throw a combined charge of Gaunts and Genestealers at them. I think one "5th edition" practice people have gotten into is ignoring the actual infiltrate and scouts rule, and just going to outflanking as the only option for these units. Genestealers are flexible to outflank when needed (like I did to my IG opponent in a spearhead mission where I was sure to and did get, two Genestealer units right on his door step), but has anybody thought of actually deploying them as infiltrators? That's crazy talk! You can do things like in Dawn of War put them right in key places, like table edges .

3. I will say this and people will disagree with me, give me a Carnifex in a pod over a Trygon any day. There is a simple reason to this, with a Trygon, I have a big model that can scatter right out into the open and just ask to be shot to death. You could probably mitigate that with Regeneration, but that is a long shot at best. However, with a Carnifex in a pod I have night on garunteed cover, and about the same shooting on the turn it arrives. I think the thing that makes the Carnifex unique to the other heavy choices is his strength. So I have been having pretty good success with a Screamer Killer in a pod that shows up on a heavy Mech flank using the pod and my enemies own models to give me cover saves and deny the full gun line shooting at it, and then I just start walking through tank lines. Sue it will go down eventually, but you have to deal with other things on top of that too.

4. I am finding you really have to be conservative where you place the Death Leaper. Showing up on top of any enemy unit will ensure his quick end. I would rather put him 12 or so inches in or beyond cover away from his target and put other threats in my opponents face to hopefully distract them from putting a lot of fire power at him. Then between move through cover and fleet, I can use him to hit foot based scary shooting units.

Can't they just shoot a lascannon at your pod, ID it, and remove your cover?

40kenthusiast wrote:I don't get the hate for Raveners. If they were s5 they'd be penning on 6's, glancing on 5's. s4 with rending has them penning on 6's, not glancing at all. Is the loss of glancing hits really so devastating? In my experience it's the pens that kill the vehicle. They can even pen rear armor 11 tanks if the Guard get cheaky.

The time I see this making a difference is when you are unfortunate enough to not roll any pens. Something that isn't beyond the realm of possibility. I don't remember how many base attacks raveners have. If it's only 3+1 for charging then there is a very real possibility you do not score any pens if the vehicle moved the prior turn (about 6.5 hits). It would be unlucky but not uncommon. Even with 4+1 attacks (about 8.1 hits) there will be times you get no pens, but you will probably have 2-4 glancing hits. Depending on the vehicle, getting a weapon destroyed is enough to render (heh) it combat ineffective. Don't have time to do the math on vehicles moving fast right now.

It may not seem like much but I think over time those extra glances would definitely make a difference.

Can't they just shoot a lascannon at your pod, ID it, and remove your cover?

Think about where that Lascannon is coming from, wherever it is coming from, that means a unit not shooting at the Carnifex. And you also have to take into consideration that you can also more easily place a Carnifex in cover off of a pod, so using both keeps it alive during a shooting phase. If it hits one tank that costs equal to it's own points cost it pays for itself.

Plus if you have multiple pods and things like Warriors supporting it. And you try and hit a flank that limits the shooting coming at you. All that adds up to your opponent not being able to remove that threat in a turn of shooting. And you are right behind them with your walking and outflanking element.

After my game on Saturday (where I only lost by a single kill point, and that was mostly due to my own mistakes), my friend commented that because I was able to put him almost instantly on the defensive, that gave me the slight upper hand I needed.

I think the new Nidz are one army that will do better the less you spam units (troops & Zoies in pods being two exceptions).

I agree with this, Nid lists are more about synergy and multiple different ways to handle things then they are about "that one super unit" or "unit X is good, lets spam it".

I still see a place for every unit in the codex. I still don't think there is a bad unit. It's all about what you are taking also in the list to support it. How does unit A help unit B help unit C. You stagger and overlap different units and you get a winning strategy. There will be a big adjustment time for people with this book, and I guarantee you that the "internet logic" will be that Tyranids suck for at least the next 3 months. But just wait.

Just a quick FYI, I'm the player Mahu tested against. The one correction to my list is that it was Chenkov, not Harker and the Medusa was actually a Manticore.

Therion wrote:
Now that I'm thinking of it, I very clearly remember the Mawloc rule saying: Every unit hit by the template suffers wounds equal to the number of models in the unit. I'm pretty certain of it, but like I said I'll check back in this thread in about 14 hours and correct my mistake if there is one. If I read it wrong it must be in the end of the sentence, like, 'equal to the number of models in the unit <that were displaced>' or something and I just didn't read it to the end.

German translation can be a bit fishy, I made that experience too.
The german wording is still overly complicated as I've said. It roughly says that "every unit touched by the template receives as many hits as there are models in the unit that are touched by the template". Believe me, the german language is capable of some crazy grammar and sentences (as you can sometimes see reading german-english like mine) and this one is hardly comprehensible. Maybe you haven't read the last part of the sentence.

@Shep: Thanks for the thought, very informative. At the moment, I try to work out some army lists that can be fully melee. As you've said, I think I will have serious problems against mech-lists. Maybe I can use some of the various ambushing units (liktors,genestealers, trygons) to keep the enemy occupied until my second wave arrives but I seriously doubt that, especially due to the hefty point costs monstrous creatures now have.

Sad thing about the Raveners. If they had double scything talons and rending claws they would have been pretty interesting imo. But being a hardass like myself, I will surely get some on the field just for the theme. Maybe I can report some success...

Greets
Schepp himself

German translation can be a bit fishy, I made that experience too.

It was my mistake, I re-checked today. Like I guessed, it just continues to explain only the models touched by the template are affected.

Nice analysis Shep. I don't think relying on so many T4 W2 models like Zoanthropes is going to be a succesful strategy though, and I'm not as big of a T-Fex fan as you are. I do like the approach you've taken with troops and HQ though. You only have 2 troops choices, but you will have a minimum of 4 scoring units each game nevertheless. Keeping the troops section cheap allows you to spend more points elsewhere. I'm just not yet sure whether your choices elsewhere are the right ones, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I can definately see the range being an issue with Hive Guard sometimes, although you might be exaggerating the problem a little. The move of 6" and fire to 24" is a 30" reach which is usually enough, and if it isn't you run nearly 10" on the first turn and on the second turn you have your 30" reach once again. Regardless, the range issues of the Hive Guard gives my 6x las/plas Razorback SW a glimmer of hope that the tanks might actually still be useful even against 6-9 Hive Guard.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Just a quick FYI, I'm the player Mahu tested against. The one correction to my list is that it was Chenkov, not Harker and the Medusa was actually a Manticore.

My bad.

Upside Nids have against the Manticore? You still get FNP against it on your MCs.

After playing against Mahu with the new nid codex, my general observations regarding the codex remains the same. The power shift in the codex is a lateral one at best. Sure there is some buffs in some of the units, etc. but it is balanced with the lack of invuln saves or getting 2+ saves on the table. Additionally, the CC in the army is good in numbers (lots of attacks hitting all at once), but falls short of expectations on smaller 1vs1 engagements. Wound allocation can make combats more attrition heavy for the bugs, because they can't take advantage of it like other armies can (that and their saves are garbage), which means they may win the combat, but the losses the bugs have sustained will be hard to deal with as the game goes on. It will be a challenge for the bugs to keep up any momentum. The loss of frag grenades is huge, and I for one like that. Too many units were getting free frag grenades, that it made deploying in covered areas pointless at times. Nids will have to literally send waves of cheap units to lock down units in cover so the following units can charge with no negatives, or use the variety of deployment options to literally attack the opponent from all sides, limiting their options. In my game vs. Mahu, the mission literally changed to a breakout style mission since standing and fighting was going to end me quickly. Leaving some units in reserves is a huge help vs. bugs so you can reinforce or move away much easier. Once a player commits to a certain area, the reserves can respond accordingly. I would highly recommend people consider reserves when facing a bug army of any kind. Those are just my thoughts. While I have only played one game vs. the bugs, I have pretty much figured out what I need to do with my IG to beat them.

People really need to start turning to Drop Podding Venomthropes with a Alpha warrior. Why yes, I can give my Trigon a 5+ cover save and make him less vunerable to assault. Oh and add 20 Genestealers to that. Merry Christmas.

6-9 hive guard is no match to the horror that is SW ML spam....with 3xLF and Logan WG CML termie troops with >20 ML shots per turn. Many IG lists have 3xvendettas and thats 9TL Lascan, add in another dozen autocannon shots and a manticore which is far more output than hive guard. Compare, 2xS8 shots vs 4xS7 shots for 20 points more, and both can be taken in units of three, but the latter have across the board range. If it is shooting up rhinos, we know which works better.

Nids just isn't "that shooty" for its points and slots. The main edge nids have is that MCs don't stop shooting until killed, and small bugs kill reasonably well. If your army can't survive nid shooting then it'd get alpha offed board by IG....

Cover saves are meaningless when my army is packed with weapons that ignore it.

The Morgon seems pretty bad, I agree.
The lack of the re-rollable 6 attacks and WS3 instead of 5 is huge imo. It also can only reburrow if not in cc at the end of the movement phase, so no reburrow after you hit&run away. If you start on the board you can use the blast in turn two and in turn four and maybe in turn six. But that is without attacking anything in cc because you could be stuck in there and miss the chance to reburrow.

Question I have is if you can place the morgon on enemy models in the initial deep-strike move? Is this legal because you are normally not allowed to place models within 1" of enemy models. And the blast only comes into place if there are model where the model is placed.

Greets
Schepp himself

CaptKaruthors wrote:The loss of frag grenades is huge, and I for one like that. Too many units were getting free frag grenades, that it made deploying in covered areas pointless at times. Nids will have to literally send waves of cheap units to lock down units in cover so the following units can charge with no negatives, or use the variety of deployment options to literally attack the opponent from all sides, limiting their options.

When I first ready the codex this is one of the first things I noticed and I wanted to throw up. I understand and agree that frag grenades are too prevalent in the 40k universe. But one army shouldn't pay the price for it. It isn't just a matter of not getting a 'free' upgrade, it is that there is essentially NO options at all. For a traditional assaulty army that to me is a gross omission. If they wanted to limit it, that's fine. For example, make it so genestealers only get the equivalent with a brood lord. Or make a tyrant or other MC grant it to one unit. Heck, I'd even take the old catalyst where you still get your attacks when a model dies but before it's removed. It is a big loss and is very disappointing to me.

The Morgon seems pretty bad, I agree.
The lack of the re-rollable 6 attacks and WS3 instead of 6 is huge imo.

Yeah once that became known the mawloc became a bit of a dog.

It also can only reburrow if not in cc at the end of the movement phase, so no reburrow after you hit&run away.

You can still hit and run in your opponents turn and then burrow on yours. Still, at I4 it is no garauntee you'll break.

If you start on the board you can use the blast in turn two and in turn four and maybe in turn six. But that is without attacking anything in cc because you could be stuck in there and miss the chance to reburrow.

See above.

Question I have is if you can place the morgon on enemy models in the initial deep-strike move? Is this legal because you are normally not allowed to place models within 1" of enemy models. And the blast only comes into place if there are model where the model is placed.

BGB pg 95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice.

There is no mention of legal placement till you start to figure mishaps and that is when the mawloc's rules kick in.

Even still, the Mawloc's strengths are difficult to captialize on. Bout the only thing I am intrigued by is the ability force models out of cover or other advantageous positions. It is so situational and very very dice dependent though, so I dunno if it is worth sacrificing a heavy slot.

The Mawloc doesn't count as having Scything Talons despite the model clearing being armed with them?

Aduro wrote:The Mawloc doesn't count as having Scything Talons despite the model clearing being armed with them?

Nope, listed weapons are just claws and teeth which count as one melee weapon. I overlooked that, too, initially.

@winterman: Thanks for the correction regarding hit and run. That makes the mawloc not much better, though. The german translation for the blast deep strike is again not that clear. I will wait for the english codex before I start a YMDC-thread.

Greets
Schepp himself

CaptKaruthors wrote:Just a quick FYI, I'm the player Mahu tested against. The one correction to my list is that it was Chenkov, not Harker and the Medusa was actually a Manticore.

mahu hte cat is out of the bag now...

seriously this is currently my favorite thread on Dakka. Keep it coming NidBoy!

G

Schepp himself wrote:

Aduro wrote:The Mawloc doesn't count as having Scything Talons despite the model clearing being armed with them?

Nope, listed weapons are just claws and teeth which count as one melee weapon. I overlooked that, too, initially.

That's.... Really kind of lame. Let's release a fig, that when assembled out of the box, is not WYSIWYG legal!!!1!!one!!!

I quite like the general loss of Frag Grenades as it forces both players to made decisions about unit placements. Although I do think they went a bit far with only two units now being able to get them.

Not quite sure how many pinning weapons bugs now have. We may need to look at taking more to force opponents to go to ground so they do not get to benefit from cover.

The only role Fex's seem to have left is to take Bio-plasma and run around ripping open Tanks with their talons.

With all the fuzzy rules in this codex and all the fun with Space Wolves it looks like GW is on the downward spiral again...

FWIW, I think Dakkafexes are actually still decent.

There isn't a lot of pinning in the army...it's probably fair to say that it could have been played up more to balance the loss of frag.

I wish the early rumors that broodlords provided frag grenades had panned out -- woulda made him more attractive.

Not quite sure how many pinning weapons bugs now have. We may need to look at taking more to force opponents to go to ground so they do not get to benefit from cover.

The two stranglers are pinning, the termagant flamer is pinning, and the biovore is pinning by virture of being a barrage weapon.

Yeah the loss of flesh hooks working as offensive grenades is a huge loss.

G

Mahu wrote:


Alpha Warriors w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter riding with the Warriors in a Pod = Excellent unit. One of my favorites in the dex. The Alpha Warrior giving the Warriors a Balistic Skill upgrade basically give you the output of 5 Marine Heavy Bolters the turn you land. THe Alpha Warrior paid of in the squad two as I was ablt to absord a few meltagun hits and keep the squad alive longer. In susequent turns, I had them split up and assault multiple targets. The Alpha Warrior is scary enough to tackle IG units himself.

Sweet, sounds like I can finally field the xeno-morph army Ive always dreamed of.

Has anyone playtested a completely warrior based drop pod assault army?

I am planning to play Nidz like a heavy assault SM army. I think that is why Mahu and I are thinking in the same direction.

G

I've been doing a little testing with the new Nids myself. My findings do differ as far as individual units go, but I'm agreeing with Mahu and Shep here. I'm a little more optimistic, but the Tyranids do need to prepare appropriately against Mech and that does skew some of the choices. I'm also finding that Tyranids aren't so much of a straight-up assaulty army (I think Orks, Space Wolves, and Daemons have more competition for that mantle, though Nids are in the top half) and they don't do gunline. However, they're a strong mobility force that can move as fast as they can each turn with no real penalty about it. Sort of like Eldar, but we trade the prevalence of heavy guns and fast transports for increased toughness (in our big bugs or ablative numbers/wounds) and superior assault capability. Here's what I've found in a unit-by-unit breakdown. Some of it is merely speculation and I'll note that on each entry. I'm not going to talk too much about myetic spores for the same reason I don't talk about drop pods in Marine summaries: they deserve their own article.

Hive Tyrant: You're paying a premium price for a good all-around package. The Hive Tyrant has an excellent profile with support-beast and killer capabilities, which means that you won't get the most out of it unless you make use of the entire profile. For that reason, it's very good in the bigger games where you have a better shot of using its wicked CC capabilities in tandem with its support powers. Also for this reason, you really either have to give it a Venom Cannon or Wings to ensure it's relevant in the early game (or becomes relevant quickly, in the case of the Wings. I might try deep-striking it, haven't done that yet). Like I said, I wouldn't use it in smaller games because it'll get shot dead before it comes into its own. It's good as both a shooty beast and an assault beast, but if you don't use it as both, it's a waste of points.

The Swarmlord (Speculation): Everything that I said about the HT applies to the Swarmlord. It has stronger, more unique support capabilities to make up for it's lack of relevance in the early game. Really big games or bust with this guy. It's not a Land Raider: Land Raiders are strong static values of force while this guy's strength is proportionate to the size of his army. Plus you get more targets for his swords-of-instant-death.

Tyrant Guard: Too expensive for my tastes. You're basically buying extra wounds for your tyrant (at 30 pts. apiece) and it's an extra kill point. A better solution would be to just make it so losing the tyrant isn't such a crippling loss in the first place. An exception would apply for the Swarmlord I think, but I don't really like 'em for a regular Tyrant. If you make it harder to kill than, for example, a Tyrannofex, they're gonna shoot at your Tyrannofex, which will be a bigger loss unless you really need the Synapse.

Alpha Warrior: Twin boneswords are mandatory for this guy. That said, he's what I've been waiting for in the Tyranid Codex: An IC of 4th edition Broodlord-level power that isn't joined by the hip to a retinue. I mostly ignore the alpha-gift power, preferring to either join it to Zoanthropes to suck up instant death wounds or joining it to a gaunt unit to create both an synapse source with a billion ablative wounds and put some bite into an otherwise mediocre tie-up/counterassualt unit. He's extremely good. Not an auto-choice, but pretty close.

Tervigon: The ultimate support beast. The support issue is why I only run 1, probably 2 tops. I'd also never take it as HQ. Point-for-point, it's the most resilient scoring unit in the tyranid army, even before you add Catalyst and gaunt-hatching, and it would be a shame to take that away. It's not a killy beast, but it's a fairly strong addition in an assault if you just need to get a little extra punch. I take one basically every time as a troop. Seldom more.

The Parasite of Mortrex (Speculation): Unimpressive. Costs a Tervigon, can't break armor, and has really lackluster special abilities.

Hive Guard: Point-for-point, the most efficient high-strength shots in the codex (not the strongest, but the most efficient). It's in a fairly resilient package. The ability your opponent has to get around your no cover ability is a bit disappointing, but the best part is being able to hide them to keep them safe without losing any shooting ability from your own actions. You can hide them in a swarm of gaunts or a bunch of cover and fire with impunity. Range can be an issue vs. a gunline, as Shep said, but not a crippling one and certainly not enough to dissuade me from taking them.

Zoanthropes: Very strong. And I love Mahu's suggestion for using them as mobile Tervigon cover. Podding and walking are both options for them. If they run in the first round, they'll get the same amount of shots against vehicles as if you pod them. Small-arms fire is their hidden weakness, another thing that joining an Alpha to the squad alleviates to an extent. Be aware of their weaknesses and their strengths rock the game.

The Doom of Malan'tai: This is a pod-only option, as it's virtually useless taking so many turns to get to the enemy. Unlike its counterparts, it quickly becomes virtually immune to small-arms fire, but big stuff can insta-kill it same as any other T4 beast. You have to be careful with this one and it's more of a "fun" choice considering how easy it is to negate.

Pyrovores (Speculation): I'm not even going to pretend to like these guys.

Venomthropes: This one's interesting, considering how easy it is to hide it behind a big beastie for a piece of terrain. It's going to be priority 1 on the death list and it's a little on the expensive side, but if you've got 60 points, an elite slot to spare, and already have a good amount of Zoans and Hive Guard, I'd throw 1 in.

Lictors: They're no longer independant, but you're only ever going to take 1. The loss of assault-on-arrival capability was a huge blow. Pheremone trail is nice, but unless that's all you want out of it, Deathleaper is simply better.

Deathleaper: He's a good 'un. Anti-psyker combined with infiltrator hunter. You do have to be careful of where to place him (12" away and in cover seems to be the magic formula), but he's good for assassinating stationary vehicles and small squads like scouts and rangers. You'll need the cover to ensure he doesn't get killed in the salvo, but he's pretty strong otherwise. Remember that WS 9 means that WS 4 or less only hits him on 5's in CC.

Ymgarl Genestealers (Speculation): Use the regular ones. Seriously. They have to deploy in cover, but suffer the same cover-init weakness as their regular, cheaper, more efficient counterparts? Pass.

Termagants: Most likely, you're going to take them for a number of reasons. With a Tervigon, they're actually pretty brutal in assault. Otherwise, they're cheap swarms that are good at holding thier ground. A special mention should be made for gaunts with devourers. They're a fragile package and they are expensive, but getting 30 18" Str. 4 shots for 100 points is not to be underestimated. By comparison, 2 of those shots are 6.66 points compared to the 8 you pay for the same from an Eldar guardian.

Tyranid Warriors: I wouldn't kit them for assault. There are far better "pure assualt" beasts out there. That said, they're pretty flexible. Go for efficiency and they shoot and assault (as well as take assaults) passably well for a fair price. Deathspitters, Poison, and Scything Talons have proven my favorite combination, but Devourers aren't too bad if you need to save points. Not broken, but fair powered and fair priced. Their weakness becomes apparent when they go against unfair units. Like the Hive Tyrant, they need to both shoot and get into the scrap to wring the full value out of them.

Genestealers: Cover issues aside, these guys are arguably the best assault troops (mind you, I say TROOPS) in the business. The long-awaited combination of fleet and infiltrate lets them get where they wanna be really quickly. If you can avoid letting them get shot, they'll tear up anything that's not in cover. The Broodlord is strictly optional now, I think, but he's good if you're expecting the stealers to get shot since he can absorb a few wounds without losing bodies and actually save against bolter-equivalent weapons. A bit fragile for reviving the stealer shock archetype, but they definitely have a place. They're efficient specialists. Get around their shooting and cover weaknesses and you're golden. 1 small squad of 8 to 10 usually does it for me and I'm personally a fan of poison.

Ripper Swarms (Speculation): An enigma. Almost all the bugs changed in fundamental ways, but ripper swarms stayed the same except for getting deep strike and worse instinctive behavior rules. It's not like anyone played with them before.

Hormogaunts: I don't think I'd ever use them without poison or with adreanals. 8 points for what's essentially a S4+ gaunt with 2 attacks, talons and I 5 seems about right. They're not as specialized as Genestealers. In fact, I'm tempted to argue that they're better than stealers against most things on a point-to-point ratio and their sheer numbers make them less vulnerable to shooting. If you're gonna take them, take a lot. 120 points gives you 15 toxicgaunts and that's a pretty good number to kill a surprising number of things. Stealers might have an edge breaking armor (both the tank and the save variety) and can get around more, but Hormogaunts are more efficient. Just keep a lot of synapse nearby and mind the template weapons.

Raveners: I love Raveners. I'm a huge fan of the models (the old ones. New ones are kinda meh to me) and I'm glad the rules finally make them good. They're fast, they strike hard, and they only cost as much as similarly equipped warriors. Heck, staple 2 genestealers (with scything talons) together, give them blazing speed and and extra wound, you've got a ravener. I'm not sold on gun options given you have the option to fleet, but if I were to take one, Spinefists give 4 twin-linked shots each with a minimal expense. Always rending claws. Always. Not the world's best unit, but their speed, above-average combat stats and their number of attacks combined with rending make them flexible in assault. I'm looking forward to using mine.

Gargoyles: If only they were scoring. They're good harriers, and basically what you'd expect out of a flying termagant. The real gem with these guys is giving them Adreanal Glands. It's a bargain-basement price and wings gives you the assualt a lot more often. Suddenly, you're charging in with S4, I5 with the blinding poison rule after a volley of fleshborer fire. Not bad. However, I probably won't use 'em too much given that there's scoring stuff that's just as good at what they do (kill troops and not much else).

Harpies (Speculation): They're really not good at anything. If you take a Winged Hive Tyrant, at least it's good in assualt. This is a shooty beast that wasted points on wings. It sort of reminds me of the paradox of Dark Eldar Scourges. And like Dark Eldar, Tyranids can look elsewhere for their heavy weapons.

Winged Warriors: Really not worth it. Unless you really need the synapse, Raveners are cheaper, basically just as fast, and better in assault thanks to their innate boost in WS and Init.

Spore Mines (Speculation): I miss dropping them on targets. You really don't need them against the armies you really have to worry about (mech) and they're too fragile to abosorb any significant firepower.

Carnifex: Mahu describes their role as a Screamer-Killer in a pod that tears up vehicles. I'd agree, since that's the only thing they can really do. If you want a general assault-beast, take a Trygon. If you want a shooty beast, either take a Hive Tyrant (same guns, same cost, better in assualt vs. non-vehicles, synapse, support options) or pony up the extra points for a Tyrannofex.

Old One Eye (Speculation): He's 260 points. For the price of a stronger CC Carnifex, you could buy a Tyrannofex or the freakin' Swarmlord. Very poor, I'm afraid.

Trygon: A faster, tougher, nastier CC fex (except against land raiders). He's very strong, but his size and combat capability makes him target #1. If you want to use him as a fire magnet to avoid losing your Tyrant/Tervigon/Zoanthropes, that's fine. If you don't, either pack a Venomthrope or deep-strike the guy. His gun makes him not completely impotent in that department and a bunch of devourer gaunts (remember, the expensive fragile packages with a billion shots?) coming out of the tunnel behind him makes for a nasty surprise. To deep strike or not to deep strike depends entirely on the game. A note on the Trygon Prime: use him if you're going to be making liberal use of the Subterrainian tunnel or if you REALLY need the synapse, but I'd avoid him most cases.

Mawloc: He's cheaper than the Trygon, but I don't like him. His flagship ability, the Str. 6 AP 2 marker, is essentially BS 2. Paying 170 points for a tougher Basilisk that fires 3 times really isn't my idea of efficiency. He's surprisingly similar to the Tervigon in terms of combat efficiency and profile, so you get to choose between the subterrainian assault ability and the unit-producing, scoring support package of the Tervigon. The choice is obvious to me.

Biovores: Actually good? Maybe. For thier points value, they're remarkably efficient troop killers. While Tyranids don't really need a ton of help in that department (needing more to get the troops out of the cans first), 90 points for a couple of big templates isn't a bad call. Another "fair" choice that might not see heavy tournament rotation, but won't get you laughed out of the gaming hall either as opposed to, say, the pyrovore. Unless you're using the model as a biovore. Which you should.

Tyrannofexes: Not really a poster child for efficiency, but the Rupture Cannon is a necessary evil. I shied way from it's massive point cost initially, but when you starting thinking about the thing as a Daemonically Possessed Twin-Linked Hammerhead with wounds, it grows on you. In smaller games, you can get away with just Zoans, Hive Guard and other options for anti-armor, but I think in bigger games (1850+), the Tyrannofex comes into its own as something that can solve problems from across the board. All it really fears is getting tied up in CC. Take steps to prevent that from happening and it'll server you well. At the cost of a tricked-out Land Raider, it better.

I havent seen this new codex yet but -IF- these Spods (Spore pods, new term.. I said it first ) have rules similiar to drop-pod assault & not just 4+ turn 2 reserves then I can see these being extremely useful.

In terms of Zoies all-round, 2:1 zoies & Hive guard. Good mix of death-strength shooting and tough str8 based shooting, all deployable where needed without needing to worry about range too much.

Dual Tervigon troop spawning models.. You just dont need to field that many troops if need be & you dont -have- to (right?) pump out gaunts in kill-point missions. Love the idea.

Mahu wrote:

Can't they just shoot a lascannon at your pod, ID it, and remove your cover?

Think about where that Lascannon is coming from, wherever it is coming from, that means a unit not shooting at the Carnifex. And you also have to take into consideration that you can also more easily place a Carnifex in cover off of a pod, so using both keeps it alive during a shooting phase. If it hits one tank that costs equal to it's own points cost it pays for itself.

Plus if you have multiple pods and things like Warriors supporting it. And you try and hit a flank that limits the shooting coming at you. All that adds up to your opponent not being able to remove that threat in a turn of shooting. And you are right behind them with your walking and outflanking element.

I dunno. I have 11 separate units that can ID a T4 target in my 2,000 point Space Marine army, and could quasi-trivially upgrade that to 16. Most of these do so at 48" range. Most also move and fire. Killing a single pod is easy, at which point we're looking at doing 4 wounds instead of 6. The math is simple-- killing the pod not only nets extra VP/an extra KP, but halves the Carnifex's defensive capability. Are pod Carnifexes tough? Sure, but they're nothing special. One isn't frightening at all-- in fact, I can probably kill two in a turn if sufficiently pressed to do so. Now, to be fair, that will draw a lot of my fire away from the main Tyranid army, but I definitely am more afraid of a Trygon than a drop Fex. Hiding behind your pod really doesn't seem like a reliable tactic, and I don't even have Mystics. In the end I think 6 wounds is better than 4, and by enough to really make a difference.

Spods FTW! Razerous coined it. I should sig that.

: )

G

If one were to use dual Tervigons, and wanted a swarm list. How many gaunts would be the optimal size for the troop choice gaunts?

Razerous wrote:I havent seen this new codex yet but -IF- these Spods (Spore pods, new term.. I said it first ) have rules similiar to drop-pod assault & not just 4+ turn 2 reserves then I can see these being extremely useful.

In terms of Zoies all-round, 2:1 zoies & Hive guard. Good mix of death-strength shooting and tough str8 based shooting, all deployable where needed without needing to worry about range too much.

Dual Tervigon troop spawning models.. You just dont need to field that many troops if need be & you dont -have- to (right?) pump out gaunts in kill-point missions. Love the idea.

Yup, the Spods (I'm hopping on the bandwagon ) work like drop pod assault. One of the local players is experimenting with a core of 40 stealers and 2 carnifexes in pods and seeing how he can get it to work out for him. I was less than impressed by the mix so far, but my standard marine lists have at least 10 ST8+ weapons with a 48" range so and in the the test game we played, he insisted that I field my 10 Sternguard who come equipped with 2 plasma cannons so that made podding near me suicidical since it quickly became alot of "Razorbacks kill spods, Marines rapid fire stealers to death." Since then, however, he has enjoyed a decent amount of success by using two hive commanders, two outflanking squads (with spods), two spodding squads and two spodding carnifexes. He'll drop the empty spods and one squad on turn one, using the empty spods to provide beaucoup cover, and then use the bonuses to reserve rolls to spam everything else on turn two. Gets up close and personal really fast.

What exatcly do you accomplish in the tyranid shooting phase?

Your not going to put a serious dent against mech list so I think it is pointless. Assault missle launchers(hive guard) and lascannons with a -1(heavy venom cannons) which only come from elite choices or expensive mcs means that you will not be able to do enough damage. The only shooting weapon you should even consider is the zoanthrope as its just to good to pass up.

You should invest in cc and run across the board and attack mech list head on. The new nids excel in the assault phase, the new mcs have special rules that allows them to deep strike without worrying about mishaps.

Maybe thats a sign of how to play them, a large swarm running straight at you, then mcs emerge anywhere they want they may scatter off but who cares theres no mishaps.

Turn 3-4 your deployment creatures are ready to charge, the mcs that came in on the 2nd or 3rd turn can move and use fleet to attack, a whole lot of charges declared at the same time priceless!

I think the Tyrannofex is a powerful option that many people here are missing.

2 bs 3 str 10 shots no thank you, however as an anti-infantry weapon considering that he has a hellhound like weapon is nice.

As anti-infantry it's strong sure, but not 250 pts strong, not in an army that excels at killing infantry without really having to try hard at it. Bio Cannon or Bust baby.

@Pyrocon: I don't believe Ymarglgwrde Stealers HAVE to do the hidden deployment. As I recall from my look thru the Codex today, they MAY do it.

CKO wrote:What exatcly do you accomplish in the tyranid shooting phase?

Your not going to put a serious dent against mech list so I think it is pointless. Assault missle launchers(hive guard) and lascannons with a -1(heavy venom cannons) which only come from elite choices or expensive mcs means that you will not be able to do enough damage. The only shooting weapon you should even consider is the zoanthrope as its just to good to pass up.

You should invest in cc and run across the board and attack mech list head on. The new nids excel in the assault phase, the new mcs have special rules that allows them to deep strike without worrying about mishaps.

Maybe thats a sign of how to play them, a large swarm running straight at you, then mcs emerge anywhere they want they may scatter off but who cares theres no mishaps.

Turn 3-4 your deployment creatures are ready to charge, the mcs that came in on the 2nd or 3rd turn can move and use fleet to attack, a whole lot of charges declared at the same time priceless!

Its important to note too that MCs can still mishap. They can mishap from going off the board or, in certain cases, landing on terrain or other models. The Mawloc, for example, specifically does not mishap from landing on models but can still drift into terrain or off the board.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Razerous wrote:I havent seen this new codex yet but -IF- these Spods (Spore pods, new term.. I said it first ) have rules similiar to drop-pod assault & not just 4+ turn 2 reserves then I can see these being extremely useful.

In terms of Zoies all-round, 2:1 zoies & Hive guard. Good mix of death-strength shooting and tough str8 based shooting, all deployable where needed without needing to worry about range too much.

Dual Tervigon troop spawning models.. You just dont need to field that many troops if need be & you dont -have- to (right?) pump out gaunts in kill-point missions. Love the idea.

Yup, the Spods (I'm hopping on the bandwagon ) work like drop pod assault.

Reading through my english hard-copy codex I find no indication that spore pods use anything similar to the Drop Assault rule.
They do have something similar to Inertial Guidance System (helping with scatter), but they use the regular "coming-in-from-reserves" rule.

Thanks to Pryokon and Shep for those reviews.

Even if it is overcosted I am going to try and make the Tyrant work as my HQ. Mainly because I have two of them and want to use the model. I want to try and keep its cost to around 250 points so I am not sure if it is worth taking the Venom Cannon or just running on the first turn to get into Psi Power & Devourer range.

I think Gargoyles and Hormogaunts are about as good as each other in combat. HG score, but Gargoyles get better movement (since they effectivly always run 6") and can shoot. Like Zoanthropes they also make it easier to give Monsters cover saves.

Personally I think Winged Warriors are better than Raveners as it gives you Synapse and better movement.

The Tranny has a combination of shooting attacks.

G

I could see using the T-fex S10 gun to fire at transports the turn before you're in assault range. If you can at least keep them from moving you'll get free hits from your assault troops on the next turn. It won't work against every army, Eldar for example. Even with the anti infantry weapon(s) 250 points is a hefty price tag.

40kenthusiast wrote:I have trouble picturing the Hive Guards as Meh. They've got 2 shots at s8, and they are very heavy platforms for that kind of firepower, presuming they are getting cover saves.

Seems like a unit of 3 firing at a rhino is 6 shots, 4 hits, 1-2 pens, 1 glance, 1 nothing? So figure every 2 rounds you ought to get a rhino down? Sounds good to me!

Thats all very well but what happens if a land raider turns up?You wouldn't be able to penetrate that unfortunately

A trigon is probably statistically just as good at taking a landraider in cc than a carnifex. it has 7 attacks that reroll misses as well.


honestly , the tyranids really do not have great antitank. They have like 3 units that can do anti armour duties, the hive guard, tranny, and zoanthropes. Everything else is meh.

Also, alot of the shooting weapons specifically lictors fleshooks are ap - which means they get a - on the damage chart.

Steelmage is right...spores don't get the Drop Assault rule. They just have their own version of inertial guidance. I think perhaps playtesting will be more accurate and meaningful after we all get the English version of the rules. Like Mahu, I'm confident that builds and combos will keep emerging for a while.

In my next game I'm going to give Biovores a try. I thought they were a stinker when I first heard their profile, but it seems like they should have some decent synergy with Hive Guards for a reasonable price. Steelmage is right...spores don't get the Drop Assault rule. They just have their own version of inertial guidance. I think perhaps playtesting will be more accurate and meaningful after we all get the English version of the rules. Like Mahu, I'm confident that builds and combos will keep emerging for a while.

In my next game I'm actually going to give Biovores a try. I thought they were a stinker when I first read their profile, but it seems like they should have some decent synergy with Hive Guards for a reasonable price.

Lyracian wrote:
I think Gargoyles and Hormogaunts are about as good as each other in combat. HG score, but Gargoyles get better movement (since they effectivly always run 6") and can shoot. Like Zoanthropes they also make it easier to give Monsters cover saves.

Personally I think Winged Warriors are better than Raveners as it gives you Synapse and better movement.

Agree with the hormagants and gargoyles, tough choice which is good. I like tough choices.

To the winged warriors vs. raveners topic: Note that winged warriors have to pay 5 points for a rending claw update because they cannot switch their gun for free like their walking cousins. I see advantages for the raveners in a terrain heavy environment with their move through cover special rule. Still, if you can't provide a basic synapse screen for the raveners or need synapse for flanking units then warriors are probably the better choice.

Greets
Schepp himself

Green Blow Fly wrote:The Tranny has a combination of shooting attacks.

G

Ok, that's just wrong...

...though, it does conjure to mind some interesting conversion ideas....

@ steelmage, gorgon: I will double check in the codex and with my opponent to see if we've been playing it wrong. We've all been going off the store's preview copy but we could have totally missed it or made a bad assumption.

Landraiders aren't the end of the world. TMC can shred them like tinfoil in cc. Try to look at the big picture. Hiveguard can smoke transports which to me is more important.

G

A couple of my observations from playtesting the german leaked codex this week:

Lictors do not give a bonus to reserves until they are on the table. They cannot come onto the table until at best turn 2 (if you're lucky). So for a little more than a zoanthrope's point cost, you're basically buying a teleport homer, and reserves on 2+ by turn 3 (again if you're lucky). Spend one third of the points on the tyrant's ability instead.

Dropzilla, as it will be known, is not a very strong build unless you have massive 4+ rolls on turn 2. Otherwise, as happened to me, your pods come in slowly but surely and get shot to pieces by concentrated marine fire before the troops inside have a chance to do anything.

Also, raveners, while having a good combat profile, are absolute ass if they take more than 3 wounds in one shooting phase the turn they deep strike. With no synapse on the board (again caused by bad reserve rolls on dropzilla) they ran completely off in 2 turns after failing a morale check.

Next time i will try podding my zoeys only, scrapping the lictor with a deathleaper, and cutting some gaunts to make up the point differences where necessary. Also, devilgaunts are my new favorite troop choice. 90 18" s4 shots per turn? Yes, please!

One can look at Tyranid Shrikes (the correct name for winged Warriors) and immediately dismiss them thanks some obvious issues. But personally I think their offensive upside is so great that it deserves a *thorough* playtest.

I agree with Shep that Ravs not getting toxin sacs or adrenal glands was a huge letdown. That really holds them back. But then the design decision might have been made to create some differentiation with Shrikes. That's been a problem for the medium bugs in the past...too much overlap.

Now I was thinking of using 20 Devourer Gaunts at 200 points and hoping tp pop them out after a few Trygons land as a backup. Does this work well? I'm thinking a few squads of Termagaunts, a Tervigaunt, a Deathleaper, two Zoans in a pod, a few Trygons and a kitted out Hive Tyrant with some Guard. A simple 1500 list.

The trouble with trying to time your reserves is the same trouble i had last night: reserve dice are finicky. I for one would like to see the english translation tell me that i can hold specific units in reserve specifically to use the trygon tunnel, thus taking a bit of randomness out of the whole thing. However, i don't foresee that happening.

Lash whip is basically hte new ubér grenade.

G

When I first ready the codex this is one of the first things I noticed and I wanted to throw up. I understand and agree that frag grenades are too prevalent in the 40k universe. But one army shouldn't pay the price for it. It isn't just a matter of not getting a 'free' upgrade, it is that there is essentially NO options at all. For a traditional assaulty army that to me is a gross omission. If they wanted to limit it, that's fine. For example, make it so genestealers only get the equivalent with a brood lord. Or make a tyrant or other MC grant it to one unit. Heck, I'd even take the old catalyst where you still get your attacks when a model dies but before it's removed. It is a big loss and is very disappointing to me.

Sorry. I'm not shedding any tears for the poor tyranid players that have the cheapest troops of any army...and can take units that make more.

Well, don't expect me to shed tears for poor IG players who can field more mech than any other army, given that all mech is undercosted and disproportionately powerful in 5th Ed.

Mech is not disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies aren't even all that great-- in my opinion, semi-mech armies are actually stronger.

tetrisphreak wrote:A couple of my observations from playtesting the german leaked codex this week:

Lictors do not give a bonus to reserves until they are on the table. They cannot come onto the table until at best turn 2 (if you're lucky). So for a little more than a zoanthrope's point cost, you're basically buying a teleport homer, and reserves on 2+ by turn 3 (again if you're lucky). Spend one third of the points on the tyrant's ability instead.

Dropzilla, as it will be known, is not a very strong build unless you have massive 4+ rolls on turn 2. Otherwise, as happened to me, your pods come in slowly but surely and get shot to pieces by concentrated marine fire before the troops inside have a chance to do anything.

This is my biggest fear for any heavy spore pod and/or outflanking list, that it is unreliable. Getting your units on the table piecemeal is death for tyranids. Even with a tyrant it doesn't look reliable enough for my tastes.

The new lash whip is the worst idea I've ever seen ... let's make everyone who gets into melee with tyranids have absolutely no chance of winning. Already have superior toughness and strength, so let's give them a power weapon and allow them to go first against everything except Banshees and Wyches that rolled the "Always go first result". Seriously GW, remove head from booty, this is getting out of control. Oh and just to make sure this army is invincible, let's give them a unit that shoots str8 indirect weapons that hit on 3+ and can pen armor. Oh and don't forget to give them str4 ap4 ordnance barrage to slaughter any troops not in transports. Who comes up with this nonsense? An army that can force you to assault it but once you do you get owned? I thought every army was supposed to have a weakness not be frikkin invincible ...

slickpcm wrote:The new lash whip is the worst idea I've ever seen ... let's make everyone who gets into melee with tyranids have absolutely no chance of winning. Already have superior toughness and strength, so let's give them a power weapon and allow them to go first against everything except Banshees and Wyches that rolled the "Always go first result". Seriously GW, remove head from booty, this is getting out of control. Oh and just to make sure this army is invincible, let's give them a unit that shoots str8 indirect weapons that hit on 3+ and can pen armor. Oh and don't forget to give them str4 ap4 ordnance barrage to slaughter any troops not in transports. Who comes up with this nonsense? An army that can force you to assault it but once you do you get owned? I thought every army was supposed to have a weakness not be frikkin invincible ...

*points, laughs*

Most of the units that should be in melee with Tyranids strike last anyway, so it doesn't matter as much as you think. Overall the Tyranid codex seems balanced, if unusual, and I'm certain that it will shake up the game. At the same time, though, I don't think it's going to be the god list that everyone appears to be afraid of. Like the Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Space Wolves were, this Codex is definitely being overblown before release.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

When I first ready the codex this is one of the first things I noticed and I wanted to throw up. I understand and agree that frag grenades are too prevalent in the 40k universe. But one army shouldn't pay the price for it. It isn't just a matter of not getting a 'free' upgrade, it is that there is essentially NO options at all. For a traditional assaulty army that to me is a gross omission. If they wanted to limit it, that's fine. For example, make it so genestealers only get the equivalent with a brood lord. Or make a tyrant or other MC grant it to one unit. Heck, I'd even take the old catalyst where you still get your attacks when a model dies but before it's removed. It is a big loss and is very disappointing to me.

Sorry. I'm not shedding any tears for the poor tyranid players that have the cheapest troops of any army...and can take units that make more.

Guardsmen tie with termagants for price. Conscripts are cheaper. Also, guardsmen get Orders and can hop into metal boxes that make them entirely immune to Tyranids.


And said guardsmen get free grenades.

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies are great and semi-mech, which still has alot of mech in it, is good too

Fixed your quote. They swung the pendulum the other way, rather than balancing the issues between mech and horde.

wyomingfox wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies are great and semi-mech which still has alot of mech in it is good too

Fixed your quote. They swung the pendulum the other way, rather than balancing the issues between mech and horde.

Nope. If you played in Third Edition, you know what powerful mech is *really* like. Fifth is a good balance between Third (mech way too good) and Fourth (mech quasi-unplayable).

Nurglitch wrote:
*points, laughs*

Now, now we can be nicer than that. At least offer the poor man some cheese to go with his whine.

Honestly slickpcm, every codex looks like this for a month or so before and after it is released. Once that's over, the horrors of the invincible Str6 AP 3 flamer, the unbeatable 6 point boy, or the 100 man guard blob settle into their actual power levels. No Tyranid army will be able to present you with all of those threats at the same time. Learning a new target priority will only improve your game in the long run. And when sparkly vampires on thunderbats worry you, perhaps you'll look back on the fears you had over the Tyrannosaurus-fex and laugh.

slickpcm wrote:The new lash whip is the worst idea I've ever seen ... let's make everyone who gets into melee with tyranids have absolutely no chance of winning. Already have superior toughness and strength, so let's give them a power weapon and allow them to go first against everything except Banshees and Wyches that rolled the "Always go first result". Seriously GW, remove head from booty, this is getting out of control. Oh and just to make sure this army is invincible, let's give them a unit that shoots str8 indirect weapons that hit on 3+ and can pen armor. Oh and don't forget to give them str4 ap4 ordnance barrage to slaughter any troops not in transports. Who comes up with this nonsense? An army that can force you to assault it but once you do you get owned? I thought every army was supposed to have a weakness not be frikkin invincible ...

Wow... that's some pretty serious knee-jerk overreaction there buddy. Watch out for the end of the world in 2012...

Thanks for the sarcastic remarks guys, don't know what I'd do without them.

@Gitzbitah: Actually I did play a test game against them with my CSM and the only real problem they presented was I was forced to assault them. Basically, after I got in their faces, I was countercharged by 3 Lashwhip/Bonesword warriors who killed 4 of my 10 CSM(average rolling) but I returned 2 autokilling pfist shots in their grills(well above average rolling) and then beat down the normal one with regular attacks so going last obviously wasn't devastating. Then the uber tyrant got into it with another 10 man CSM unit and he completely stomped them, but I guess that's to be expected. Couldn't for the life of me kill his dang Hive Guard but I hear you on the target priority thing. The only thing I was disappointed about in the whole fight was those str8 shots popping my rhinos, and the fact that i failed a ton of armor saves from those str4 ap4 barrages. However, when my initiative 6 Lash Prince got into melee with the Hive Tyrant and I found out I had to go last that was way lame as he tore me apart without me getting a chance to return fire. The worst thing was how much fire I had to pour into those dang Zoanthropes with their nonsense 3+ invul save of which he made every single one, specifically against all my str8 defiler/meltagun shots(ugh). Nothing really overpowered here I guess, was just venting about an army that forces you to get close and then countercharges you.

Last I checked, I didn't see any IG players being disappointed about being able to field more mech. It is what it is.

wyomingfox wrote:Well, don't expect me to shed tears for poor IG players who can field more mech than any other army, given that all mech is undercosted and disproportionately powerful in 5th Ed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guardsmen tie with termagants for price. Conscripts are cheaper. Also, guardsmen get Orders and can hop into metal boxes that make them entirely immune to Tyranids.

Conscripts also have lower stats and an inferior weapon compared to termingaunts. Orders are a nice bonus, but not uber either...and who said IG in chimeras are immune to tyranids? My chimmys died just fine to the bugs.

And said guardsmen get free grenades.

And is pointless. They should be free since even with them...they are most likely striking last since most units have a higher initiative than they do...but nice try though.

I dunno. I have 11 separate units that can ID a T4 target in my 2,000 point Space Marine army, and could quasi-trivially upgrade that to 16. Most of these do so at 48" range. Most also move and fire. Killing a single pod is easy, at which point we're looking at doing 4 wounds instead of 6. The math is simple-- killing the pod not only nets extra VP/an extra KP, but halves the Carnifex's defensive capability. Are pod Carnifexes tough? Sure, but they're nothing special. One isn't frightening at all-- in fact, I can probably kill two in a turn if sufficiently pressed to do so. Now, to be fair, that will draw a lot of my fire away from the main Tyranid army, but I definitely am more afraid of a Trygon than a drop Fex. Hiding behind your pod really doesn't seem like a reliable tactic, and I don't even have Mystics. In the end I think 6 wounds is better than 4, and by enough to really make a difference.

OK, if I am deep striking a Carnifex in a pod against a Space Marine gun line, there are two things I am doing.

1. Deploying in or behind cover

2. Concentrating on a flank. Preferably the one with the most units in it.

Let's assume the worst case scenario, you have 16 Lascannons in your army. That is assuming that my Zoenthropes, Hive Guard, Tyrannofex, etc. didn't at least stun or minimize the amount of Lascannons you can bring to bear, that also includes the Bioplasma Shots and the 5 Str. 6 shots from the pod as it lands. So if we are assuming your best case scenario, we will also assume mine. I was able to place the two Carnifexes I take in a list and the pods in or behind decent cover (which isn't hard if I deploy extremely close to a piece of terrain). So to kill the Pod you will have to be able to hit them and wound them, which in and of itself is a 27% chance per Lascannon. So statistically is will take 4 Lascannona at most to kill a pod. To take out a Carnifex, is roughly the same chance per wound, so to put dow it's 4 wounds you have to realistically send all 16 shots at it.

Now Dice are a factor here, can you shoot 4 Lascannons at a Carnifex and kill it. Yes, but that is assuming you are hitting and wounding with every shot, and I am failing every cover save.

Think about it realistically, when you see Carnifexes a turn away from hitting your tanks and the pods they came in on, what are you going to concentrate on? The Pods? I don't think so.

It still plays into my strategy if you concentrate on the Carnifexes. I will gladly take the loss of a Carnifex, if it means that the rest of my stuff get across the table.

Fetterkey wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies are great and semi-mech which still has alot of mech in it is good too

Fixed your quote. They swung the pendulum the other way, rather than balancing the issues between mech and horde.

Nope. If you played in Third Edition, you know what powerful mech is *really* like. Fifth is a good balance between Third (mech way too good) and Fourth (mech quasi-unplayable).

Yes they did. I was playing when 3rd came out. Mech had rhino rush, but transports were also easy to destroy and were comparitively expensive. Also, you couldn't move AND double tap in 3rd, so transport fire power was half. Oh and blast templates' strength were not halved when the center hole wasn't over the hull.

Plus there were so many nuisances that helped horde in 3rd (some that got axed in 4rth and the rest were axed in 5th. Blocking line of sight terrain. The beauty of consolidating in nearby squads after winning CC (Can't remember but I think you could even consolidate after blowing up a tank)...not to mention that if one won an assault one could overrun his opponent, wipe out his unit and move 2d6 up the board. Nid horde units could do what they were suppose to do, tie up enemy squads and grind them down through attrition (not instantaneously vanish do to huge LD modifiers or fearless wounds like in 5th). MC were still cheap point for point. MC got easy cover. Sorry, but Nids did quite well in 3rd.

Fifth in comparison is hardly a good balance. Yes, mech still can't rhino rush...well except for LR. But Mech gets cover saves, huge improvements on the damage table, and transportees no longer get auto pinned when thier tank finally goes boom (which in 4rth was the saving grace to walking up and killing your transport in CC). Oh and in 4rth and 5th edition, vehicles kept getting cheaper points wise. There is a reason that 5th edition battles look like parking lots.

slickpcm wrote:

@Gitzbitah: Actually I did play a test game against them with my CSM and the only real problem they presented was I was forced to assault them. Basically, after I got in their faces, I was countercharged by 3 Lashwhip/Bonesword warriors who killed 4 of my 10 CSM(average rolling) but I returned 2 autokilling pfist shots in their grills(well above average rolling) and then beat down the normal one with regular attacks so going last obviously wasn't devastating. Then the uber tyrant got into it with another 10 man CSM unit and he completely stomped them, but I guess that's to be expected. Couldn't for the life of me kill his dang Hive Guard but I hear you on the target priority thing. The only thing I was disappointed about in the whole fight was those str8 shots popping my rhinos, and the fact that i failed a ton of armor saves from those str4 ap4 barrages. However, when my initiative 6 Lash Prince got into melee with the Hive Tyrant and I found out I had to go last that was way lame as he tore me apart without me getting a chance to return fire. The worst thing was how much fire I had to pour into those dang Zoanthropes with their nonsense 3+ invul save of which he made every single one, specifically against all my str8 defiler/meltagun shots(ugh). Nothing really overpowered here I guess, was just venting about an army that forces you to get close and then countercharges you.

Ouch! Yeah, that really sucks. I remember the first time I ambushed a Necron Deceiver with my Callidus, and discovered that I was now completely unarmed. And the first time I tried to stop a Deceiver with a TH/SS unit... sometimes there's just no substitute for the school of hard knocks. I'm fairly sure I'll get beaten by the new nids a few times before I can tell a tervigon from a trifex, there are just too many MCs to keep straight right now. Naturally, they all have their weak points and their strengths- but it will take me some time to figure out what those are, and memorize them well enough to employ them in a game.

It sounded like you were overreacting to the new codex- but I've vented about a great many things myself. I doubt I'll be so calm the first time I get consumed by the hive mind.

slickpcm wrote:when my initiative 6 Lash Prince got into melee with the Hive Tyrant and I found out I had to go last that was way lame as he tore me apart without me getting a chance to return fire.

It's not Tyranids being OP, it's you not asking what stuff does.

Mahu wrote:Think about it realistically, when you see Carnifexes a turn away from hitting your tanks and the pods they came in on, what are you going to concentrate on? The Pods? I don't think so.

If killing the pod means that the Carnifex loses 50% of its resilience and gives me an extra KP, the pod dies first every time.

I think people have possibly been a bit spoilt/brainwashed by "Drop pod assault" & "Deamon drop" rules (No offence, People).. with the whole :- Stuff coming in first turn for massive Alpha strike Pew.

But Using the idea of; full amount of spods coming in from reserves, along with a core of outflanking units.. along with anything that either 1) allows non-outflanking units to outflank and 2) Improves reserve rolls or outflanks to some degree 3) Really Big and MC nasty.. that actually gets fielded on the table. Putting up a target selection of MC's only (Tervigons, T-fexes, Tyrants and Fexes) for the first few turns would be benificial (Similiar to the concept of mech) as weaker fired weapons would result in really minimal wounds and template/blast weapons having next to zero effect..

So my point is; Sole MC's fielded first turn, Tervigons because they seem to be made of chitinous win, T-fex's to allow for some realistic ranged engagement of armour (its more about the actual range compared to the str10 or mediocre BS3, It seems to me!) with a 2-3 Spod selection of ranged pew (Perhaps one tough/numerous CC squad) along with the bulk (or entirety) of your non-MC fodder. All depends on how much can effectively outflank.

I'd also like to see how nids want to get around cover & assaults.. I mean the lack of assault grenades for NIDS seems just crazy. Its what they do best, I thought it's what they were designed to do! Maybe lashwhips, unsure how they work now. Hopefully there will be a hidden gem to deny this apparent weakness.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Conscripts also have lower stats and an inferior weapon compared to termingaunts. Orders are a nice bonus, but not uber either...and who said IG in chimeras are immune to tyranids? My chimmys died just fine to the bugs.

And is pointless. They should be free since even with them...they are most likely striking last since most units have a higher initiative than they do...but nice try though.

A weapon with twice the range and the ability to tack on more shots at will is worse than a bolt pistol? Color me shocked. And Orders only make your dudes better, whereas our units have to be babysat by Synapse creatures or they go haywire.

The only way your chimeras could have been wiped out by Tyranids would have been if you left them standing still and fielded only 1 or 2 and no other vehicles. Even with our new anti-tank units, they still have relatively short-to-average range and are restricted to a few specialist Elites choices as opposed to "1 or more in every squad" that every single other codex in the game except Daemons and Necrons gets. A chimera is, at its worst, an extra life for your guardsmen. At its best, an impenetrable fortress that makes them entirely invincible. Mounted units provided no end of trouble to Tyranid troops before, and they will continue to do so under the new codex.

Next, your conscripts get higher Ld, better armor, OUR rule which was taken away and handed to you by RC (Without Number), the ability to function outside of specific leadership auras, the ability to Run faster (a real slap in the face considering we lost Fleet and got nothing in return), and a plethora of other amazing options that you're conveniently ignoring. Termagants are bad. We take them to enable Troops tervigons, fill out the required slots, or as a very much last-ditch objective option.

Finally, the +1 to Initiative that termagants have means quite literally nothing if you can stay in cover and ignore it. You're pretty much having your cake and eating it. As long as you have Initiative 2 or higher, you can make use of grenades, and if you claim otherwise you're full of it.

All of this, for fewer points. I sincerely hope you're just trolling.

I2 with grenades assaults I3 in cover:

I3 goes first, because the grenades simply ensure that the I2 model does not drop to I1.

Same for I3 with grenades vs. I4 in cover.

Frags still allow you to glance rear armor though.

Lictors also suffer from instinctive behavior LURK sure they have leader ship ten but that doesnt mean you cannot fail it.

Thanks for sharing your thought, Pryokon. One major thing I don't agree with:

Pryokon wrote:Ymgarl Genestealers (Speculation): Use the regular ones. Seriously. They have to deploy in cover, but suffer the same cover-init weakness as their regular, cheaper, more efficient counterparts? Pass.

Setting aside for the moment that we're talking about using Elite slots for something other than Zoanthropes or Hive Guard, I'm not sure you've given these guys a fair shake. Yes, they have to deploy in cover. But they still get to move/fleet/assault afterwards, making it very dangerous to hang out too close to terrain, and you get the benefits of secret deployment. Coupled with outflanking stealers (to discourage your opponent from hugging the table edges), and maybe a Trygon/mawloc (to discourage too much clumping), it seems like Ymgarl 'stealers offer some decent utility for turn-of-arrival striking. (Plus, they still get saves against bolters.) Even for assaulting models in terrain, +1 T for that assault phase and 4+ armor will minimize the damage that Long Fangs/Devestators will manage.

Janthkin wrote:Yes, they have to deploy in cover.

Do they? I'm pretty sure it said they MAY use the Hidden Deployment.

A weapon with twice the range and the ability to tack on more shots at will is worse than a bolt pistol?

LOL. Obviously someone doesn't use conscripts regularly...LOL. Twice the range means squat when the BS of the shooter is a measely 2. I'll take the better strength, assault based gun any day.

Color me shocked. And Orders only make your dudes better, whereas our units have to be babysat by Synapse creatures or they go haywire.

Orders may make a unit do something cool. However, last time I checked conscripts are Ld5. Unless you are taking specific characters (Kell, Commissar lords), etc. I don't see them passing that test very often. With warriors being troops, etc. getting good synapse coverage isn't that difficult....or let me put it this way...no more difficult than IG players needing to babysit units within their respective command radius.

The only way your chimeras could have been wiped out by Tyranids would have been if you left them standing still and fielded only 1 or 2 and no other vehicles.

I love the assumptions you are making. I have 5 chimmies in my list and 3 out of 5 died...and one became immobile. Why? Because with all the pod dropping, outflanking, shooting, etc. It's pretty difficult to protect your side and rear armor all the time.

Even with our new anti-tank units, they still have relatively short-to-average range and are restricted to a few specialist Elites choices as opposed to "1 or more in every squad" that every single other codex in the game except Daemons and Necrons gets.

These units also can hit from various attack angles, getting side shots quite easily. AV10 is extremely easy to pen if you have the shot. Getting there is made easier with podding units.

A chimera is, at its worst, an extra life for your guardsmen.

To some degree. But when it blows up it will take half of them in the blast. A fair trade.

At its best, an impenetrable fortress that makes them entirely invincible.

LOL. Invincible...right.

Mounted units provided no end of trouble to Tyranid troops before, and they will continue to do so under the new codex.

Duh. Which is why I said the power level in the new codex is a lateral shift. The biggest thing the bugs got were cheaper troops, and methods to attack an opponent from all sides of the board. Castling will not work vs. tyranids anymore.

Next, your conscripts get higher Ld, better armor, OUR rule which was taken away and handed to you by RC (Without Number)

Conscripts are Ld5. What is the Ld of a termagaunt again? If you think a 5+ is better than a 6+...well you are barking up the wrong tree. Most weapons blow through it. Taking send in the next wave means adding more points cost to an already small unit...and driving up the points cost of the conscript unit. Is it worth it? Sure, but it isn't gamebreaking either. FYI they don't get frag grenades either.

the ability to function outside of specific leadership auras, the ability to Run faster (a real slap in the face considering we lost Fleet and got nothing in return), and a plethora of other amazing options that you're conveniently ignoring.

Uh, who ho cares? They are two different armies. Sounds like IG envy to me...LOL. What other amazing options am I conveniently ignoring? The awesome Ogryn?The uber stormtroopers? The kicka$$ ratlings? Or how awesome punishers are? Meanwhile, last I checked I don't get pods that can drop without risk, pods that shoot a ridiculous amount of shots, crap that can just deepstrike where ever, guns that need no LOS to shoot, the list goes on. Do you see me complaining about it? No. It is what it is. Not all units in a codex can be OMG friggin awesome. Accept it.

Termagants are bad. We take them to enable Troops tervigons, fill out the required slots, or as a very much last-ditch objective option.

I'm sure the other Tyranid players that have been testing their lists would disagree with you, but by that rationale, conscripts are bad as well. All mine do is get in the opponents way, while my other stuff does the work...then maybe take an objective. Sounds like they pretty much do the same thing, eh?

Finally, the +1 to Initiative that termagants have means quite literally nothing if you can stay in cover and ignore it.

Um...yeah, and how long can I go ignoring them..or better yet the other stuff that's appearing right in my lines. Everything in the Nid codex trashes any guard unit as soon as it hits CC.

You're pretty much having your cake and eating it. As long as you have Initiative 2 or higher, you can make use of grenades, and if you claim otherwise you're full of it.

I am claiming otherwise. What benefit do grenades give me by charging Init 4 units (or higher) in cover? They still go first. Where as before I'd strike simo with them. If I charge orks in cover, I may go first, but I still lose because I don't generate enough attacks to win. Either way is a losing prospect.

All of this, for fewer points. I sincerely hope you're just trolling.

Fewer points? Seriously? LOL. Conscripts are 80pts of "I don't care." It's more of a wash if you ask me...and for what it's worth I wasn't the one who responded to my post. You were. Trolling I am not. I'm just making a general observation that Nid players are getting a pretty decent codex with lots of combos and options..so they should work with what they have. A lateral shift in power, but some cool new tech to work into their lists. Lastly, when has a Termagaunt ever been good? If they were we'd have seen them all over the place in past games, etc. right?


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Yup and in all cases, it's a losing prospect with IG.

willydstyle wrote:I2 with grenades assaults I3 in cover:

I3 goes first, because the grenades simply ensure that the I2 model does not drop to I1.

Same for I3 with grenades vs. I4 in cover.

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So what? Stealers are Strength 4 and can do the same thing...oh, but they also have rending don't they? LOL.

Gornall wrote:Frags still allow you to glance rear armor though.

The hive guard are kinda-sorta nasty, but 3 str8 shots at BS 4 really arent great for a whole lot. I'm far more terrified of things popping out of the ground near my army and rending their way through my armor, both vehicle and 3+ Power Armor. Zoanthropes are an absolute must now that they have a str10 weapon that can pen all that armor 13/14 running around. Plus with a 3+ invulnerable, why the heck not!

Rest assured I'm fairly certain I'll be getting some more test games vs. Mahu's lists. I look forward to the challenge and any further findings I'm sure he'll continue to post here.

CaptKaruthors wrote:So what? Stealers are Strength 4 and can do the same thing...oh, but they also have rending don't they? LOL.

If you're going to mention that 14 point genestealers can hit armor 10 when somebody brings up the fact that 5 point guardsmen can, well, there's pretty much no point to even talking to you. Unless somebody wants to compare the vehicle-wrecking capabilities of meltaguns and hormagaunts in assault? I'm certain that's just as fair of a comparison.

Ok, somebody who doesn't live in the boonies (like Alaska) can answer this:

What weapons does a Alpha warrior have access to? I have a 3rd edition hive tyrant that I'm going to make into a alpha, and he will be joining a unit of warriors from the last edition that have scytals and deathspitters. What should I outfit him with to maximize output from this unit? Preferrably, I'd like this unit to be a stop-gap transport killer until I can afford some of the new models, and one that doesn't use up an elite slot.

He starts with Scything Talons and Devourer. He can replace the Talons with Rending Claws, Boneswords, or Lashwhip and Boneswords. He can replace the Devourer with Claws, Spinfists, Deathspitter or Talons. Personal opinion, I'd say Boneswords and Deathspitter. With Str 5 guns, they're not going to do too much to transports though.

There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

A fair comparison would be Str 4 boosted gaunts vs. guardsmen which the gaunts still have the advantage because there will be more of them and put up more attacks. Regardless of the 2pt difference. However, you were complaining about free frags on unit which doesn't get them (conscripts) which puts them on par with non boosted termagaunts...i.e. they both do nothing to vehicles...yet you claim they are somehow better.


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Aduro wrote:He starts with Scything Talons and Devourer. He can replace the Talons with Rending Claws, Boneswords, or Lashwhip and Boneswords. He can replace the Devourer with Claws, Spinfists, Deathspitter or Talons. Personal opinion, I'd say Boneswords and Deathspitter. With Str 5 guns, they're not going to do too much to transports though.

Str 5 guns on side armor can and will have adverse effects on your transports.

But they're only 18" range, and you can't pod the Alpha.

Oh you can't? I wasn't aware of that. That definitely changes my opinion on the alpha.

I would not be surprised if they change it in an FAQ, but normal Drop Pods and Transports have rules that allow you to attach an IC to the unit inside. The Spores are not actual Transports and simply have their own, similar rules, but do not include the provision that IC can join up.

They are not actual transports? That sounds strange. It probably is because they are not vehicles, and thus cannot technically be transports. What are they then, MCs? Infantry?

CaptKaruthors wrote:There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

Oh, so Warlord Titans are better choices than Genestealers at killing vehicles? SD vs S4 w/ rending! No contest! Time to take Warlord Titans!!1! Next!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:They are not actual transports? That sounds strange. It probably is because they are not vehicles, and thus cannot technically be transports. What are they then, MCs? Infantry?

They are MCs.

Let's talk about spore pods and how great they are.

Cheap T4 w/ multiple wounds makes it so ST8 or higher needed to insta kill them.

The best part about the spore pods is that they're not a vehicle and are actually a monstrous creature. What does this mean??

Well:

Monstrous Creatures get 2d6 penetration so its unlikely your opponent will tank shock to kill them since they are completely immobile. It also means you damn well don't want to charge them as they have power weapons. Sure they may have weapon skill 2 but they also have Lashwhips so they are going to get to go at the same time with INI1

They have BS 2 so even though they get a 6 inch ST6 assault 6 it is not that great but here is the kicker.

They're monstrous Creatures meaning they can fire 2 weapons on landing. They have access to Thorn Blast which is a ST5 large blast. They always have to shoot the closest model but who cares.



Thats really cool for 50 points.


Also, it specifically lists them as Transports under all of the headings of Transport Options for units. IE = its a transport. Its just not a vehicle.

Following that it would be a dedicated transport for that unit otherwise you could purchase a landing spore for termagants and put a Hive Tyrant in it.

If it is a Dedicated Transport which I feel it is then you most certainly can attach IC to the unit per the BRB. So, an Alpha warrior most certainly can join a squad with a Landing SPore in reserve.



That said

2 VenomThropes w/ Alpha Warrior w Boneswords and Scything talons w/ Regenerate and a Spore Pod w/ Thorn Blast is 260 points.

That's a pretty kick ass unit.

Throw in some Trigons deepstriking by it and Genestealers etc.. and you have a really nasty deepstriking assault force.


Venom + Alpha pod
Trigon Alpha
Trigon Alpha

Good Luck...

I see a debate looming over this... I could see where that would be RAI but not RAW that they act as transports for all intents and purposes. I guess I'll have to wait and see the codex when mine comes in the mail before I can figure it one way or the other. I would think it would have to specifically say in their unit entry that they act like transports, otherwise they are just an immobile MC that can carry troops in it, and not really a transport (and thus guided by the same rules).

Edit: because I hit 'enter' too quick.

Nice lame remark, but thanks for playing.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:There is no comparison. Stop being obtuse. Str4 + rending vs. vehicles > than T3 choads with frag grenades vs. vehicles. Next!

Oh, so Warlord Titans are better choices than Genestealers at killing vehicles? SD vs S4 w/ rending! No contest! Time to take Warlord Titans!!1! Next!

I think the Pods have significant weaknesses some people are refusing to see. The fact that it will die on the rolls of 3+ and then 2+ from a single SM lascannon/missile launcher/meltagun/multi-melta means that it can never be counted on to provide line of sight blockage or cover saves. You can't even argue that the SM player is 'wasting' firepower when he directs one of his S8 weapons at the 50 point/1 kill point model that the nearby Tyranids greatly benefit from unless its killed.

We haven't see a lot of army lists yet either, but I suspect that when combining points spent on Spore Pods with the somewhat inflated costs of the monstrous creatures the Tyranid armies will seem awfully small. My 1750p SM/SW lists have 15 vehicles and 30+ men. If I'm only against four monsters and a less than ten T4 W2 models I can't really say I'm impressed. Of course I might be wrong too.

I'd also like someone to propose Tyranid units and strategies that will destroy the Nobs or Seers on Bikes or Wolf cav. A lot of Tyranid lists look like they have absolutely no answers to them. Is it even possible to build a Tyranid army that has a 50/50 chance or better against all types of opponents?

What I do like about the Tyranid codex is that it seems like it's absolutely filled to the brim with units most people will never even have time to try out. I believe we'll see a lot of downright awfully ineffective Tyranid armies in play before someone figures out something.

Boneswords; there is the answer right there to the question of what to do about TW calvary and Nobs.

Especially if they have Adrenal Glands and Toxic Glands.

A 5 Man winged Tyranid Warrior Squad w/ Boneswords adrenal glands and toxic sacs is like 275. It rerolls ones ; rerolls wounds w/ poison on a 4+ and has ST5 so it rerolls wounds vs. Nobs , Nurgle, TW Calvary.

WS 5 means is will hit the Thunderwolves on a 3+ and reroll 1s which means they only miss on a 2. That's pretty awesome.

Then with a Pair of Boneswords each wound dealt out has to take a LD test or it causes instant death.

20 Attacks though so that is a low number but they'll slaughter a Thunderwolf unit. Especially if they are armed individually which actually makes doing that a bad thing.

Against Nobs the same thing.

edit:

Winged Tyranid Warriors are awesome that is pretty much what I think for their point cost ; 5 points for wings. Yes, please.

Can you put wings on an Alpha? That may be an alternative to podding them together.

20 Attacks though so that is a low number but they'll slaughter a Thunderwolf unit

The first thing comes to mind is that you have 275 points spent in a unit that has 5+ armour saves and is extremely vulnerable to instant death on top of that.

Against TWC you'll hit 15 times, it's an impressive number. You'll get 11 wounds. It's a lot of damage, even assuming two-three storm shields, wounds spread on all five models and LD10. However, how many of the Nids will be whacked in return by surviving Power Klaws or Thunder Hammers? All of them. What happens when the Shrikes either lost some models to shooting or have to assault into cover or get assaulted themselves? There's no reason to assume a very fragile unit would get the jump on faster and more resilient units.

Boneswords aren't especially awesome against W1 Assault Terminators either, but mostly I'd be worried about the platform they are mounted on. While the super bikers and cavalry units of other armies can wade through a lot of ranged firepower, winged Warriors die when someone even looks at them. Lastly, how would you get your points worth out of the unit against armies like IG? Your force weapons are absolutely useless and the whole squad is one ordnance template or melta volley away from nid heaven.

Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.


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They are not a incredible end all be all unit for the tyranids but they are a excellent CC unit. Also, you can readily get cover saves from gargoyles in front.

Its a very good unit.

Hollismason wrote:WS 5 means is will hit the Thunderwolves on a 3+ and reroll 1s which means they only miss on a 2. That's pretty awesome.

Technically, I think the general rule of "you can never reroll a reroll" would break in on that action. If they are combining high WS with the scything talon reroll of 1, that's one reroll. They may only miss on a 2 in the first roll, but they would miss on a reroll of a 1 or 2. So they hit on 4.666 out of 6 of their attacks, or roughly 10% less than what you present in this statement. Not a lot less, but significant when you are trying to justify those 275 points for 5 models.

Hollismason wrote:Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.

Is that your reply? You ignored everything else in my post about Shrikes and their weaknesses? Love the discussion at Dakka these days.

I very much know they are power weapons, hence what I said about two-three guys with storm shields and two guys without. I also took into account the re-roll to wound in my calculation. So, a highly expensive glass cannon unit running around unwounded can cause damage when it charges an enemy unit on open terrain. How surprising. So, what conclusion did you come to in your argument? Shrikes are the solution against Seer Councils, Nobs and TWC, and belong into against all comers tournament armies, because they have necessary strengths and no weaknessess that opponents will easily exploit? For your convenience my argument is that they are utter points sinks against many armies while suffering from weaknesses that even their main target opponents can use to their advantage.

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is not disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies aren't even all that great-- in my opinion, semi-mech armies are actually stronger.

semi mech is way better but full mech is way easier. The average player wants the EZ button.

G

Therion wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Thunderwolf calvary do not have LD 10 they have LD8. Boneswords are power weapons so only the stormshield guy will get saves; all the others do not. then each model that ha a wound placed on him will have to take a leadership test on 3d6 or suffer instant death.


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edit:

Oh and since the attack is poisoned and their str is equal if the warriors charged then they get to reroll all 4+ wounds because of the poison wounds rule with ST5 vs t5 they have to reroll non wounds.

Is that your reply? You ignored everything else in my post about Shrikes and their weaknesses? Love the discussion at Dakka these days.

I very much know they are power weapons, hence what I said about two-three guys with storm shields and two guys without. I also took into account the re-roll to wound in my calculation. So, a highly expensive glass cannon unit running around unwounded can cause damage when it charges an enemy unit on open terrain. How surprising. So, what conclusion did you come to in your argument? Shrikes are the solution against Seer Councils, Nobs and TWC, and belong into against all comers tournament armies, because they have necessary strengths and no weaknessess that opponents will easily exploit? For your convenience my argument is that they are utter points sinks against many armies while suffering from weaknesses that even their main target opponents can use to their advantage.

There was a huge post earlier about the weakness of tyranid warriors; the same can be applied to winged warriors the advantage winged warriors have is mobility over warriors for 5 points more.

Who said anything about them not having weaknesses i was pointing out that your calculation for what they would do to a ThunderWolf squad was off with your assumption that they were LD10 which they are not meaning they suffer one wound from a bonesword and have to take a LD8 on 3d6 or suffer instant death.

Well what if? What if space aliens kidnapped you while you were playing 40k impregnated you with a child and then returned you a split second later and during the game you gave birth to a alien baby?

There are a lot of what ifs. Just because something has a weakness doesnt mean much. So don't get your panties in a wad.

Well what if? What if space aliens kidnapped you while you were playing 40k impregnated you with a child and then returned you a split second later and during the game you gave birth to a alien baby?

There are a lot of what ifs. Just because something has a weakness doesnt mean much. So don't get your panties in a wad.

Entertaining. You do realise people here are discussing Tyranid strategies, army lists, and the strengths and weaknesses of units, don't you? Your contribution was that 275 points worth of flying glass aliens will kill a few of the toughest assault models in this game in an optimal scenario. We knew that, and I personally was expecting you to have a point in all this sooner or later. I was incorrect and for that I apologize.

Therion wrote:I think the Pods have significant weaknesses some people are refusing to see. The fact that it will die on the rolls of 3+ and then 2+ from a single SM lascannon/missile launcher/meltagun/multi-melta means that it can never be counted on to provide line of sight blockage or cover saves. You can't even argue that the SM player is 'wasting' firepower when he directs one of his S8 weapons at the 50 point/1 kill point model that the nearby Tyranids greatly benefit from unless its killed.

We haven't see a lot of army lists yet either, but I suspect that when combining points spent on Spore Pods with the somewhat inflated costs of the monstrous creatures the Tyranid armies will seem awfully small. My 1750p SM/SW lists have 15 vehicles and 30+ men. If I'm only against four monsters and a less than ten T4 W2 models I can't really say I'm impressed. Of course I might be wrong too.

I'd also like someone to propose Tyranid units and strategies that will destroy the Nobs or Seers on Bikes or Wolf cav. A lot of Tyranid lists look like they have absolutely no answers to them. Is it even possible to build a Tyranid army that has a 50/50 chance or better against all types of opponents?

What I do like about the Tyranid codex is that it seems like it's absolutely filled to the brim with units most people will never even have time to try out. I believe we'll see a lot of downright awfully ineffective Tyranid armies in play before someone figures out something.

What I've taken away from Shep's & Mahu's testing so far is that we won't be using mixed bugs too often, unless you happen to own a ton of warriors.

My initial guess at a competitive army? 2 Tervigons, 2 giant gant/guant swarms, 2 Tyrannofexes, maybe a Venomthrope to drop cover over the Tyrannofexes, some Zoanthropes, Deathleaper, and a cheap Prime for HQ. Deathleaper messes up one pskyer; Tyrannofexes concentrate on preventing any others from getting close enough to Jaws them to death. Zoanthropes are there for Shadow in the Warp as needed, and nasty shooting otherwise. Termigants, backed by Tervigons, are a decent tarpit with a silly volume of attacks.

I think the army would be okay against biker Seer council (Fortune is going to be hard to cast, once the bikers get close enough to be useful). Nob bikers would be interesting - moderately hard for them to get at the MCs through the 4-5 units of gants, and the Prime is a pretty good Warboss assassin if armed w/dual-boneswords; much depends on how many Nobs get insta-gibbed on turns 1 & 2 from Zoanthropes and T-fexes.

I have only vague ideas how it would play out against a wolf cav list (or Bloodcrushers, for that matter). Smaller spawned gant units as out-of-synapse blockers, with as many insta-kill shots as possible on the wolf cav. Still have to watch out for Jaws, though.

Interesting as you are not advocating a spam list. I think it's quite possible we will see several strong lists from the new codex. I don't think spam is going to work that well as the new Nidz are about synergizing different units. I think swarm will be strong with the right elements and there should be a new MC hammer list. I think there is also room at the top for a hybrid list that borrows heavily from the other two.

Based upon my experience playing power armor I am thinking the Alpha Warrior will eventually become the most popular HQ choice. If genestealers can truly infiltrate, fleet and outflank they could be one of the most popular troop choices. Gaunts definitely have a lot going for them and the loss of fleet tells me that Robin Cruddace dropped it to maintain balance. I could be wrong though.

G

We can't forget about the burrow lists! I think a list with 3 trygons and various other units that would benefit from the Trygons tunnel will be very popular!

Me too! I am planning to run two Alpha Trygons. One thing I really like about the new Nidz is the ability to run an entire army that does not rely upon synapse.

G

Problem with burrow lists is if your reserves come in too early you have to bring them on normally. The English codex states units arriving via the tunnel come in during subsequent turns.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Interesting as you are not advocating a spam list. I think it's quite possible we will see several strong lists from the new codex. I don't think spam is going to work that well as the new Nidz are about synergizing different units. I think swarm will be strong with the right elements and there should be a new MC hammer list. I think there is also room at the top for a hybrid list that borrows heavily from the other two.

Based upon my experience playing power armor I am thinking the Alpha Warrior will eventually become the most popular HQ choice. If genestealers can truly infiltrate, fleet and outflank they could be one of the most popular troop choices. Gaunts definitely have a lot going for them and the loss of fleet tells me that Robin Cruddace dropped it to maintain balance. I could be wrong though.

Model count is going to be interesting. The list I proposed uses a minimum of 60 + 6d6 gaunts, and quite probably more. I think there's going to be an art in knowing when to spawn bonus gants; you don't want to run out early or expose them to unnecessary fire, but you also want to get use out of your Tervigons before they get dead.

I love my genestealers, and I'm still not certain how they'll do. I tried to run w/o extended carapace a few times in the old 'dex, and they just die in droves to bolters & flamers. Catalyst & Genestealers might be a fun combo.

The Prime is probably going to be very popular for non-nidzilla builds, because he's cheap and reasonably effective in HtH; it helps that he can hide himself in units, too.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Mech is not disproportionately powerful in 5th edition. It was disproportionately weak in 4th edition. Besides, mech armies aren't even all that great-- in my opinion, semi-mech armies are actually stronger.

semi mech is way better but full mech is way easier. The average player wants the EZ button.

G

Could you provide examples of effective semi-mech lists and tournament winners? Fetterkey is always talking about how mech is not powerful, and that once everyone realizes that semi-mech is better people will switch to it. Do you have any good examples? I can never get any from him.

I don't think mech isn't powerful, I think it isn't disproportionately powerful. One good place to look for semi-mech stuff might be Shep's current Imperial Guard list, which uses Infantry Platoons rather than Veterans in order to field both several Chimeras and a strong foot contingent. I think that's the way that IG lists are going, though I could certainly be wrong.

I guess I've been making a strong list all along? And I just wanted a bit of diversity. Knowing this I think I'll post my list up in Army Lists to see if anyone has thoughts on it.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think Zoies are a must have unit since heavy mech is the current meta then throw in the Deathleaper as added insurance versus anti psychic enemy units, so I'm planning to run two squads of two Zoies (probably in pods) plus the ubèr Lictor for the boost.

I also see Trygons as an excellent close combat monster that can add synapse plus the Alpha version can shoot well too.

As Mahu has said I am also a big fan of the Alpha Warrior with a retinue of Warriors coming in via a spore.
G

Jumping in here kinda late.

I think 2 squads of 2-3 zoans each and deathleaper would be a good solid start.

Don't know much about trygons. I think if they could let more than 1 unit come through the 'tunnel', they would be very solid.

I like the alpha warrior. Cheap hq. I also like the tervigon as an hq choice.

This would not be a bad starting point for starting your play testing.


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Green Blow Fly wrote:Landraiders aren't the end of the world. TMC can shred them like tinfoil in cc. Try to look at the big picture. Hiveguard can smoke transports which to me is more important.

G

The problem is that hive guard compete with zoans and death leaper in the same foc. I think it's mandatory for 2 zoan units. Doesn't leave much room for much else.

The nid codex army build is getting to be like the ork codex army builds.

To many good units competing to be in the list in the same few foc's.

Is it public knowledge that one (1) unit can follow through the hole of the trygon every subsequent turn after the turn the trygon emerged? These units can't assault after that either.

Just want to make sure.

On a side note, I'm a bit bummed that the lictor is pretty much useless now. It seems everyone takes the deathleaper for his -d3 Ld ability and the rest ist more of a bonus. And taking more than one lictor-type model is overkill anyway. Why has the lictor be on the table to get the reserve bonus anyway? It's not like he is not there, he's freakin hiding, pooping out pheromones while we speak!

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT for clarification.

Schepp himself wrote:Why has the lictor be on the table to get the reserve bonus anyway? It's not like he is not there, he's freakin hiding, pooping out pheromones while we speak!

QFT

Thought:

my store doesn't have the english codex yet, however could putting a tyrant, alpha warrior, ect. in with your assault broods with a lashwhip cause everyone to go at the same time when assaulting through cover, or is it only units(models?) that direct attacks against the lash whipper get the penalty?

I'm thinking that venomthropes are our walking frag grenades, giving us cover, defensive grenades, terrain tests to counter chargers, and catalyst (sort of) if they join combat.

also, I don't think enough credit is being given to "alpha strike" bugs.

2 squads of genestealers infiltrating about 20" from enemy lines in cover, deep strikers, gargoyles (maybe outflanking) trygons, ect. stand a fair chance of penning in the enemy in his deployment zone, against some players could throw them completely on the defensive.

What are peoples thoughts on the load out for the Alpha Warrior?

I like
Pair of BoneSwords
Adrenal Glands
Regenerate
Scything Talons


The Scything Talons are kind eh he does get to reroll 1s; I dunno what you could take instead of.





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Yeah the lictor has been made pretty much useless; add in that he has a AP- weapon with BS3 and 2 shots his shooting is nothing to talk about really. i mean if it had some sort of cool I can blow up armour type ability yea that would be cool.

Then add in that it does have instinctive behavior I mean sure ith as leadership 10 but still thats something that you may not want to count on.

I still think Hive Guard have their place, I just don't think they are the mandatory choice people where jumping all over. I also think the Pyovore has it's place, as you can pod them as two cheap heavy flamers (think of the cost of a Dread in a Drop Pod and compare), and you can just dare your opponent to deal with them. Orks will just love the Pyovore.

Nobody seems to mention the "one two" punch of Elite Genestealers and Spore Mines.

The more I playtest, the more I realize that Tyranids are less about crazy monsters that dominate ever assault they are in. Where their new strength lies is in the ability to just dominate unit placement and deployment. They have more tricks to be able to place things where they want them to be and be a little more surgical when they apply their forces.

Here is the list I plan to run this Saturday (point costs are off the top of my head):


-HQ-

Warrior Alpha w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal, Toxin = 105

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes = 180

Deathleaper = 140

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Adrenal Glands, Toxic = 180

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = 144

10 Genestealers = 140

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in a Pod = 180

-Heavy Support-

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in a Pod = 220

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma in a Pod = 220

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Regenerate = 295


Total = 1998


I shifted some points around. I am going to see if Regeneration on a Tyrannofex is worth it.

Mahu wrote:I still think Hive Guard have their place, I just don't think they are the mandatory choice people where jumping all over. I also think the Pyovore has it's place, as you can pod them as two cheap heavy flamers (think of the cost of a Dread in a Drop Pod and compare), and you can just dare your opponent to deal with them. Orks will just love the Pyovore.

Nobody seems to mention the "one two" punch of Elite Genestealers and Spore Mines.

Well, I've looked at the weapon options for the spore pod and it occurred to me that some of them can be devastating to Geq or orks. The pyrovore is imo still a killpoint present to your enemy as it has to be killed with instant death weaponry to trigger its explosion. Without that restriction I would have given the pyrovore a try.

The Yrmgal Genestealers are nasty imo and I will try to use them. With their morphing they can switch on the T5 in round one to minimize the loses after assaulting out of cover and next round it's +1A or +1S time, baby! Dropping spore mines was my main hobby in 4th and 5th edition and will not stop now. They are not game breaking but still an annoyance.

Greets
Schepp himself

No Catalyst on that Tervigon, Mahu? Interesting. I look forward to your thoughts on Regenerate.

As for spore mines & the Ymgarl, I'm not 100% certain what you mean. You may be able to use spore mines to prevent your enemy from deploying inside your desired piece of terrain (depending on scatter), true, but if they go first, or if your Ymgarl don't arrive on turn 2, they can probably get in your way after that. I like the Ymgarl; I don't know that I like buying spore mines.

Well, I've looked at the weapon options for the spore pod and it occurred to me that some of them can be devastating to Geq or orks.

Enough Blast Template is devastating to any infantry unit in the open. Tyranids can do some crazy blast spamming, as long as you have things in your list to pop tanks.

The pyrovore is imo still a killpoint present to your enemy as it has to be killed with instant death weaponry to trigger its explosion. Without that restriction I would have given the pyrovore a try.

Well, think about it. 2 Pyrovores in a pod costs 140 points. A Dreadnought in a Pod costs 140 points for a similar load out. Sure the dreadnought has better armor and is slightly better in close combat, but the Pyovores have twice the Flamer templates out put on the turn it lands, and it loves to die in combat. Even just regular wounds on it can hurt the guys fighting it. Sure it's a Kill Point hit, but what isn't in the Tyranid codex. I have just resigned myself to the fact that Tyranids will probably always play down in Kill Point missions, but we have the tools to make up for it. If the Pyrovore damages a unit enough to where it can easily be picked off by other things then it has done it's job. Hell, all they need to do is survive the regular attacks from Nobz. Then die to powerclaws.

The Yrmgal Genestealers are nasty imo and I will try to use them. With their morphing they can switch on the T5 in round one to minimize the loses after assaulting out of cover and next round it's +1A or +1S time, baby! Dropping spore mines was my main hobby in 4th and 5th edition and will not stop now. They are not game breaking but still an annoyance.

The goal will be to place the mines in such a way that in order for your opponent to block the Ymgal's Genestealers arrival is to try and walk through them to get to that piece of terrain.

You can do other nasty things like in Dawn of War, pick a piece of terrain near your opponents table edge, and use infiltrating Genestealers to force your opponent to arrive on the side they are on.

There are a ton of possibilities with these guys, they are a little expensive, but you are paying the points to be the only unit in the codex that can actually assault the turn they arrive plus be able to change their stats.

No Catalyst on that Tervigon, Mahu? Interesting. I look forward to your thoughts on Regenerate.

My bad. I will check the points and I may drop Toxic on the Tervigon to get Catalyst. I believe the importance of Updgrades on a Tervigon is A. Catalyst, B. Adrenal Glands, C. Toxin, D. Scything Talons.

@Mahu -- I actually (made the mistake of?) talking up spore mines and Ymgarls on Warseer a while back, but I was "set straight" that it would simply never work. Hey, maybe it won't, but it's been on my list of things to try.


My personal observations from a game vs. mech IG last night:

- I tried that Hive Guards/Biovore combo I mentioned earlier, and it was a success. The (outstanding) results were probably skewed a bit thanks to good scatter rolls on my part, but being able to pop a Chimera out of LOS with the Hive Guards, then in the same turn drop S4 AP4 pie plates on the disembarked (and out of LOS) passengers can really be devastating. I'm not calling Biovores a must-have (not sure anything in the codex really qualifies for that anyway), but they're a very solid unit that synergizes well with HG, IMO, especially against mech IG, Tau or Eldar.

- My footslogging Tyrant with two Guards got worn down fairly quickly even with cover. They took a ton of punishment, but if your opponent really wants to remove them, they can even with Tyrant Guards. I'm not giving up on Tyrants, but I think you have to strongly consider the rest of your army and decide if one works for your build. Last night's experiment was medium and small bug-heavy, with only two MCs...a Tyrant and a Tervigon. So the Tyrant got the kitchen sink thrown at it. Conversely, in a game using a reserves-based, MC-heavy army, I dropped so many immediate threats on my opponent that I forced him to ignore my winged Tyrant DSing in a little farther back.

- The game also underlined the issues with certain powers being psychic shooting attacks. And underlined that the Tyrant powers don't amount to much if your opponent is fully mech and embarked.

- Dominion is a nice little power to head off a potential synapse emergency.

- Hormagaunts are really good at what they do. Paroxysm makes them just sick.

- In a capture & control, a single Tervigon is probably going to end up leashed to the objective in your zone, meaning you won't get many opportunities to use catalyst on your advancing units. That might make the case for two Tervigons, although Termagants simply wouldn't have had the speed to engage disembarked units like the Hormagaunts did. I think maybe I'm a little more sold on Tervigons than I was before I started playtesting, but also more sold on other Troops choices, if that makes sense.

Mahu wrote:I believe the importance of Updgrades on a Tervigon is A. Catalyst, B. Adrenal Glands, C. Toxin, D. Scything Talons.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that single scything talons on MCs are pretty lame. I swear by crushing claws on tervigons. yes they get pricier, but it helps their output quite a bit, and you aren't really gonna miss that initiative 2 on the charge.

If I don't end up loving tyrannofexes after this weekend, I am fond of your mycetic spore naked fex. Dual scytals on strength 9/10 IS a respectable way to take out tanks. Spore on a good day might take some heat off of the fex, either through a cover save or absorbing some firepower before its removed. And at 160 points, it doesn't break your back to lose the 4 wound fex.

These are my theoretical faves atm....

HQ tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

3x zoanthropes in spore

3x zoantrhopes in spore

deathleaper

troop tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

20x termagants with a spore (only if it turns out you can use the spore as empty.)

3x spore mines

3x spore mines

tyrannofex with rupture cannon

tyrannofex with rupture cannon


OR... this one which will also be very frightening for mech...

HQ tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

3x zoanthropes in spore

3x zoantrhopes in spore

deathleaper

troop tervigon with crushing claws, catalyst, poison and adrenal

20x termagants with a spore (only if it turns out you can use the spore as empty.)

carnifex with a spore

carnifex with a spore

carnifex with a spore


I kinda really like the second one in theory. Six spore pods in reserve, thats 36 strength 6 shots at bs2, just waiting for vehicles. Its also just a lot of sizeable models taking up real estate. Fleet officer has been added to my IG army permanently. I know how popular nids are at the tourneys I go to, and now that they have a competitive codex, you'll see even more. Fleet officer messes with outflankers big time, and will by me plenty of time to hammer on the foot element that every nid army will almost undoubtedly have, before I have to start clearing out tons of spore pods and MCs in my own table half.

I really like your last list you posted for testing Mahu... It is obviously not focued yet, but I'm imagining that is so that you can test out a few different things at once. Please share everything you learned...

I really don't think spore pods are that threatening. Mystics will kill them essentially every time, if they don't get killed as they come in they'll just get killed next turn, they don't have reliable targeting, they're vulnerable to scattering, they essentially feed KPs, and they have only BS 2. Strength 6 might be good against Chimeras, since you can probably get side armor hits, but Rhinos are much less vulnerable. Spore pods seem generally inferior to Drop Pods in my book, especially if Tyranids do in fact have Drop Pod Assault.

Tyranids DO NOT have Drop Pod Assault.

PS. I have the codex in front of me.

Well, that's a plus. On the other hand, it means that the Nids will have to find other ways to deal with vehicles for the first few turns, especially if they aren't bringing a Hive Tyrant for reserves support. More points in favor of the Tyrannofex if you ask me...