While playing in tournaments I’ve recently noticed how I feel like I’m fighting with one hand tied behind my back with CSM. Below I’ll explain my reasonings behind CSM’s lack of competitiveness in 5th edition.


I’ve been playing CSM for quite some time now and really enjoyed the variety in the 3.5 dex. I didn’t really mind the changes in the 4th edition dex even though they severely reduced the number of viable CSM comps. That aside, here’s a list of the general strengths of the CSM dex and how they’ve become weaknesses. (I’m not trying to QQ, I’m just articulating how perceived strengths are no longer viable)


Lash:

Some people rely on lash as a crutch to win but I believe it should be used as a supportive weapon to increase the effectiveness with the rest of your army. However the recent shift in the meta game towards uber-mech and uber-psychic defense has made lash pretty much useless. For example: I recently played in a three game tournament and I only successfully casted lash once using double lash princes. Newer codexes now have ways of getting a ton of vehicles (IG, Orks) or have ways of crippling lash’s effectiveness via psychic negation or making lash more difficult to cast (SW, C:SM, Tyranids, Eldar and soon to be BA). Lash is a great ability but the fact that everyone else has changed while CSM has stayed the same has rendered it largely ineffective. The problem is CSM are forced to still use this HQ simply because there are very few other viable options.


Mechanization and Melta-Spam:

I covered this a bit in the Lash section but the fact that armies can take so many vehicles that have so many always of ignoring your attacks makes CSM effectiveness at killing vehicles quite poor. (i.e. Flat Out, KFF, Stones, soon to be BA skimmer, etc.) It seems like the meta is forcing you to spam as much melta as possible so you can kill these vehicles (this is obviously a double edged sword). Take too many melta and you are open to getting trainwrecked by horde armies. However if you don’t take a ton of melta you pretty much autolose against Landraider spam or IG Leafblower. This makes unit selections and winning tournaments seem like a craps shoot. (Yes I know obliterators are good against almost anything; they are also quite squishy)


Troops:

Chaos troops, albeit versatile, are very expensive. They pretty much need a rhino so they can get anywhere and so they can survive one round of shooting. This = 1 more easy KP.

-Plague marines are the obvious choice for BIS. They have survivability, good weapons options, and pretty much basic chaos goodness. They’re slow but I can live with that tradeoff. The problem is that there’s a large drop-off from here.
-I’ve found that Bezerkers are quite useless in todays metagame. Hitting on 3’s and wounding on 3’s is quite awful when you’re facing a giant horde of FNP tyranids or a giant mob of orks (cc against horde is supposed to be their specialty!!!). They’re also quite useless against vehicles, have low survivability, are slow, and need the charge to be even remotely effective.
-I think everyone knows why Thousand Sons are bad. Overcosted, gimmicky, slow as molasses in a blizzard, overcosted, prone to psychic defenses, and did I mention that they cost a ton for even a basic squad?
-Noise Marines suffer from a lot of the problems that TS have. They cost a lot to get their good weaponry and they are still slow. They’re somewhat interesting but I can’t see them even winning their points back.
-Basic Chaos Marines are interesting if you’re trying to get some cheap meltas or just to put more bodies on the board but the cult options are generally better.


Mobility:

CSM obviously suffer from a lack of mobility (as do mostly all MEQs). How am I ever going to hold multiple objectives if my troops get into a tarpit CC 2nd turn or their rhinos get lascannoned to oblivion turn 1? I’ve used a lot of reserves, Dsing, outflanking to try and combat this but this is generally to no avail.




I was wondering if anyone else thought the same way I did about CSM. I guess the evolving weaknesses of CSM are simply the product of codex creep. I’ve never played another army (other than dabbling with Daemons) so I’m not used to codecies becoming less effective over time. If anyone else has any other ideas/views on this topic please feel free to critique or supplement. Thanks!

I've never once used lash so I think that says how badly I need to win =p. We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong. Space wolves especially have a lot of the things we do and often for cheaper with more standard special rules. I feel a little behind the 8-ball in some games but I also think games are very much up to the players behind them. Dark eldar/necrons have some of the most outdated codexes possible and they can still kick ass if played right with the right tactics.

I'm hopeful that after maybe necrons we'll get our new codex, get our full amount of chapters back with all their special rules, and get some point values adjusted and get back in line with the rest of the newer codices.

I've actually considered more than once to doing a pre-heresy csm army and using the space wolves or codex space marine book to create my army list. I've always stopped because I miss my sorc lord with wings, my raptors, and my autocannon havocs. Even if they aren't the top competitive army I chose them for more than that.

What neuters the CSM codex is that you have exactly three slots (Heavy) to fit in all of your long-range fire support. Everything else is either a single one-off heavy weapon on a squad that wants to be mobile or ineffective at the points cost, like the Reaper autocannon.

Mechanization and Melta-Spam: PM and Vanilla CSM can carry 2 meltas per squad. Vanilla CSM squads are actually better at the melta game than regular space marines who can only carry 1 per squad. If the game is melta spam chaos can play that game, and play it well.

The best way to handle a horde list is to charge it. 10 CSM or PM charging=27 attacks+ the champion.

Troops: Chaos has better troops than vanilla marines. The strength of a chaos army lies in it's troops, and the big mistake most chaos players make is they spend too many points on elites and heavy support. 2/3 games are objective based where only troops can score.

Noise Marines and Thousand sons take a lot of skill to use. They are not bad units, they just take a lot of skill to play.

Mobility: Rhinos are mobile enough. The only real flaw of the current chaos army is a troops heavy chaos list should go mechanized, which gives away a lot of VP in an annihilation.

It's all about perspective. One can call the glass half empty of half full.

How is a 2+ save with 2 wounds squishy? That's twice as tough as a terminator. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about terminators being fragile.

Halsfield wrote:I've never once used lash so I think that says how badly I need to win =p. We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong. Space wolves especially have a lot of the things we do and often for cheaper with more standard special rules.

I think this is a more appropriate statement. The major failing of our codex when it first came out was in the fluff/background department. Competitively, it was solid. Not amazing but it worked.

Codex Creep however has turned a solid list into a merely decent one in comparision.

As for the Lash issue, I've been preaching that since the new SM codex. There is too much mech and too much anti-Psyker to rely on it. Besides our DPs are best served by being in assault or hunting down enemy armor, not directing traffic.

Yeah, I've got to say that CSM are still a top tier army. I've only been playing Warhammer for 2 years now but I can honestly say that I can count my loses on one hand and I've never placed lower than 3rd in a tournament( even my first tournament I came in 3rd).

Out of all the armies I think Chaos Marines are one of the best at playing to their strengths while ignoring their weaknesses. We don't have fast vehicles, skimmers and our bikers are a little expensive.

What we do have is DP's with wings. I'm not a fan of lash princes, a DP running around with the purpose of using a psychic power is a waste to me. An 18" charge is hard to get away from, with the crazy stat line and taking marks/powers for cc they can be used to herd, disrupt, kill, and well anything. DP's are offensive juggernaughts and imo one of the best HQ's in the game.

So our troops MUST be put in rhinos, welcome to 5thed. When you drop off your awsome, adaptive, MEQ troops use the rhinos. Tank shock, block LoS, etc. and most of all, keep them naked unless you have absolutly knowhere else to put the points. Yes NM and TS leave something to be desired but the other 3 more than make up for it. PM and vanilla CSM are by far the better but only because Zerkers require more skill. Our HS just needs to compliment our troops, the only one I don't use often is the defiler ( crazy I know ). The rest of the army is so good at CC and med to short range fire fights that I feel the HS should all be long range fire support. I personally now almost always take 2 preds with AC/LC and 2-3 obliterators. I'm currently building a large and various havoc squad to replace a pred every now and then.

I could go on and on but, people that go around thinking that CSM means Lash princes PM's and Obliterators are the only way to win , fail at Chaos Marines.

YOu make some good points, Vace Glace, and I see where you are coming from.

I think CSM are still viable, a friend of mine went undefeated in the last GT we played in with them, but they are not the big dog they were, I agree.

Perhaps you should try changing up your old tactics? Winged princes with warp time are still great, and CSM troops are excellent, especially Plague Marines as you noted.

As sourclams said, I would like to see some more long range anti tank in other slots, and for their Fast Attack section to get a total overhaul. Bring back some of the variety.

I have to say, I think chaos is still top tier. Lash wins games. That has not changed, and will not change--you can have bad rolls, you can have bad matchups, but all it takes is 1 successful lash, with the right armylist, and you win.

Have you used lash paired with 3 oblits before? Not to sound mean, but you know that you can hit 19 models with a single plasma cannon (and you get 3 per oblit squad) if you lash them in a clump, right?

As for berzerkers being bad, again I disagree. Beserkers are one of the best assault troops in the game. Will they struggle versus THSS termies? Of course. But with 8 basic models, on the charge with a rhino you are looking at 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, ~5 dead marine equivs or 12 dead orks. The attacks back at that point will be negligible, even for counter-attacking spacewolves.

The key is playing them right. You dont assault out of the gate. You tie up shooty units with beserkers, and shoot assaulty stuff. Lash facilitates this to a great degree.

Will you have a hard time versus the tier 1 mech guard lists? Well yeah! They are tier 1 after all. But ask a fatecrucher daemon army if they would rather guard or twin lash, and I guarentee they say guard.

I think that chaos lists are definately competative, and you don't have to rely on Lash princes to do it.

Chaos has things that many other armies do ot have (the ability to increase your base A, T, I or get an invul save springs to mind). Obliterators are arguably one of the most versatile HS choices in the game.
There are definately weak points - i'm not a big fan of raptors personally.

But i think calling them a second tier army is a little unfair as they can still beat the stuffing out of any other army given the right dice rolls and army list.

But i think calling them a second tier army is a little unfair as they can still beat the stuffing out of any other army given the right dice rolls and army list.

How exactly is that not true of, well, *any* army? Of course an army is going to win with perfect dice rolling and an ideal match-up.

The CSM army can still bloody compete....and that should be good enough....

To think about, only a few dexes really have a difficult time competing, or rely only on a certain build to be competitive...pure DH, necrons, and to a certain extent the tau come into mind. The rest (including dark eldar) can definitely still give a good fight....

The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

That competitive build is not even really that competitive.

Compared to units coming out of new codices, Obliterators don't even offer that much firepower, nor durability.

For a 75 point model, they are extremely vulnerable to Str8+ AP2 fire, or to CC in general. And they can be killed by small-arms fire. It's not even really that tough.

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

I disagree and I've fought the Lash, PM, Oblit list with my own CSM. He was taken to school, there isn't a codex out there with one competitive build.

The list you speak of is just easy to use, crappy players can take it and do well. That doesn't make it the only way to play the Codex.

Good players play good lists and win games,

Good lists posted on the internet used by bad players doesn't make the codex bad

Bad players shouldn't design codexes.

Milkstorm wrote:

imweasel wrote:The sad thing with CSM is that it really only has one 'competitive' build.

They can compete, but not as diversely as other codices.

I disagree and I've fought the Lash, PM, Oblit list with my own CSM. He was taken to school, there isn't a codex out there with one competitive build.

The list you speak of is just easy to use, crappy players can take it and do well. That doesn't make it the only way to play the Codex.

Good players play good lists and win games,

Good lists posted on the internet used by bad players doesn't make the codex bad

Bad players shouldn't design codexes.

Hes right i know a couple of builds that do well. Last tourney i saw a vanilla CSM army with meltas and Pm's with Plasma's in the same army do work. The lash isnt as good to deal with mech armies, and that is why its having all the issues it is. Even mech noise marines do pretty well from what i saw.

I play Eldar and I can tell you the moment the new chaos codex came out I got scared, and started to take Runes-Of-Warding all the time. I don't like other people moving my guys, I need my cover saves. Look at it like this: There are LOTS of options for what you can do with CSM... well more options than smurf marines... not all of them will be as good as others but hell man, you get an upgradable cc monster with an 18" charge! That, and lash+obliterators is a nasty and obvious combo. Consider yourself lucky your codex got an update right around when the new rules came out. We just drift around the webway with GW telling us that the 4th ed. codex was our update... while making ork boyz and guardsmen cheaper, space wolves huger and cheaper than regular marines, and so on. I just deal with it... your special character is far better than mine but costs less... oh well... but I don't think CSM is really in any place to bitch compared to some other codex. My 4th ed. guard were useless for instance (wish I still had those figs nowadays), now they are an army everyone is scared of. At least you got a new codex, y'know? The way they time things, a new Eldar codex will probably come out right BEFORE they change all the rules again, so at least the CSM got theirs at the same time as the new rules.

-Vanilla CSM are pretty much interchangeable with Plague Marines. One is better offensively, the other defensively.
-Hordes are not a problem because our troops our sturdy, have bolters and pistols, and have 2 attacks each. Meltas are also assault.

However, I agree that they dont quite have the "oomph". Chaos just doesnt have these special rules that all these new armies are packing these days (due to the codex being a dumbed down piece of garbage). I dont think theyre bad, infact i still think theyre quite strong, but there arnt any special tricks up any sleeves.

Ive definitely been adjusting my list for months now. Options I would never consider before are now in my main list (havocs, dreadnoughts, predators) because theyre simply better against mech and at range, while being cheap so more men can move up the field. It's also far more fun to play which is a bonus

I disagree with the point that Berzerkers are useless.

I've never played a game where Berzerkers haven't gotten their points back. They've always mowed through Orks well enough, and Tyranids as well.

And you can take a Champ with a Power Fist, to better fare against tanks.

Thousand Sons are hardly useless. They destroy if played right.

I think the units that need replacing/getting better are:

Noise Marines
Possessed
Chosen
Bikers
Raptors
Dreadnoughts

And that's about it.

But doesn't every player think something about their army list choices is underpowered? I Don't like that my guardians are punk compared to an ork boy who costs half the points either, but thats just what it is... they don't like that I can tarpit them either. Each army has its drawbacks, perhaps oversights by the designers, but they also all have their strengths (yeah I wish I could get troops with termie armor just for taking a certain special character for instance aka space wolves). Appreciate it for what it is. CHaos marines are far from being 'weak'... maybe the problem is that the last codex was overly strong. Maybe everybody at tournaments should just play space wolves, just to stop the whining. Can't complain about them.

This is not a QQ or a "my codex is crap for x and x reasons" post.

I was trying to show how every new codex that's released has a lot counter-CSM flavour to it.
I'm not trying to say that CSM are bad in any way (I actually think they're still quite good).
It's just that their effectiveness has been drastically reduced over time via codex creep (this usually happens to every army).


Note: Tier 2 armies are still fun and competitive; they just can't mingle very well with Tier 1 armies unless they specifically kit out their units to beat them. I think everyone knows who's in Tier 3


I think a lot of people have missed the point of (or misinterpreted) my post.

Well, that's just codex creep restated isn't it? You had a powerful army when it first came out, but now other more powerful armies are getting supported by stupidly overly powerful rules and yours isn't as powerful by comparison. Think of all the armies that have been left behind. What you call "tier 3". Once they get up to speed again they will rule the boards I guess, but until then, we just have to take what we have to work with and make it work.

I don't really think it's a counter CSM totally, I think it's a counter to MEQs in general. Most armies being played have the 4's across the board with the 3+ save. Psychic powers are becoming a bigger part of the game. Unfortunately that is taking its toll on the Lash builds.

Also, the sad thing is that the codex updates really just fuel the whole wheel mentality of the game right now. Some armies find themselves up top, while others find themselves down low. Which can easily be changed with a codex release making the popper a prince again.

My main problem is simply things not matching the fluff like they used to, and points costs being way too high. Why GW can look at certain new models, compare them to existing models in the CSM army, and go "yeah, despite being better, he should totally cost less."

Look at what we do have. Princes are immune to a lot of things that other HQs fear, or at least more resilient. We can charge a squad of marines with a powerfist and have a reasonable chance of coming out alive. Our HQs can kill dreadnoughts in assault. Our troops bring anti-tank weaponry and stay mobile with it, and don't cost much [SW cost even less and are better, but that's another gripe], meaning we can take either redundant amounts of tank killing in other slots or use them for assault or anti-infantry. Our rhinos can mount anti-tank weaponry. While most people say not to use it, I'm a big advocate. They may be 1-shot only, but they can really affect the game in a big way.

What NM do well is help even the playing field against other MEQ. That doomsiren is devastating, especially combined with lash. 1ksons are supposedly just as good, but the enemy can still take cover saves.

Halsfield wrote: We don't have a weak codex as much as some of the new ones are very strong.

Halsfeild has it

Strength and weakness are only in relation to other similar entities, so if other codices are strong the chaos codex is by default weak.

For the record, the "competitive" CSM build is your favorite variation of 'Bunch of troops in rhinos, 3 Heavy fire support units, and maybe 3 elites or something because in general the rest of the codex isn't as good as its Troops slots'.

If you're trying to run competitive CSM, it's going to be a rhino-rush wall of manpower.

It can be made to work. I actually did quite well at last year's 'Ard Boyz with Chaos. It is, however, quickly losing its lustre with the sheer amount of long range firepower in the recent codices.

Armies whose only anti-tank was a huge amount of meltaguns were a doable matchup for CSM because they're okay if they can get close. Max Overdrive Space Wolves or Chimera Wall Guard, due to their ability to open up Chaos rhinos so early (like, turn 1) make the rhino rush harder to achieve.

sourclams wrote:For the record, the "competitive" CSM build is your favorite variation of 'Bunch of troops in rhinos, 3 Heavy fire support units, and maybe 3 elites or something because in general the rest of the codex isn't as good as its Troops slots'.

If you're trying to run competitive CSM, it's going to be a rhino-rush wall of manpower.

It can be made to work. I actually did quite well at last year's 'Ard Boyz with Chaos. It is, however, quickly losing its lustre with the sheer amount of long range firepower in the recent codices.

Armies whose only anti-tank was a huge amount of meltaguns were a doable matchup for CSM because they're okay if they can get close. Max Overdrive Space Wolves or Chimera Wall Guard, due to their ability to open up Chaos rhinos so early (like, turn 1) make the rhino rush harder to achieve.

Yep, when everyone else is getting better firepower in more different slots for cheaper... well, we're still good against Tau, right?

If the complaint that "rhino rush" is not a strongpoint because your rhinos are weaker than other armies transports (but yeah I could get 3 of 'em for the price of 1 of my serpents... but that's another gripe)... why not just use an occasional rhino as mobile terrain and concentrate on the strongpoints like DPs and sorcerors and basic infantry that rock for their points cost and are very upgradeable? "rhino rush" will never compete with the Tau's "Fish of fury" or the Eldar's "aspect wave" or other such blatant strategies but that is why/because rhinos are cheap transports compared to what other armys have to pay for theirs. So maybe the problem is that everyone else has better transports in a game that is turning mech-happy if anything just to avoid psyker powers? Well CSM has much better troops (barring SW but again, that's another gripe) and much better psyker powers. Use your strengths, don't try to make your weaknesses work, if you use your strengths you will find that you have one of the meanest lists in the top tier.

Uh, Chaos *doesn't* have "much better psychic powers" than the new codices. Lash is the only really unique Chaos-only power, although Warptime is a more souped-up version of most codices' CC-enhancing powers. Everything else is a solid serving of 'meh'.

And the Daemon Prince is not really a strongpoint of the codex. He's effective at ~150-ish points, but the only reason the DP is regarded as so good is because in general your other options are poor comparatively. The DP is a T5 or T6 Marine with a modest invul save and 4 wounds. He dies to autocannons and missile launchers in a pretty sad way. DPs synergize with rhinos because it's dilution of firepower, but as a killy HQ the DP pales in comparison to, say, a Wolf Lord. Cheaper, but not as effective.

The reason why Rhino Rush is the only viable build is because the Rhino is a very effective transport and CSM Troops tend to be better pound-for-pound than everything else. If there was any way to get two heavy weapons into a 5 man squad the codex might even be somewhat viable again.

It's too late at night to argue about this, where I live. I'll post later on. Essentially, I'm in disagreement with the OP's point. CSM are still a top tier list, fully capable of winning tourneys and crushing the enemy.

I was willing to run Lash DP/Rhino CSM/Oblits/Termicide in 'Ard Boyz last year, and even though I did quite well with them, I'd be very hesitant to run them again this year.

-New IG simply present too much firepower. My 2500 IG 'Ard Boyz has, in addition to double mystics and the usual 12+ vehicles, more than 80 special and heavy weapons. Not shots, actual weapons. A flamer is 1. A T/L Lascannon is 1. An autocannon is 1. 80 of them. Majority at S6 or higher. My 'Ard Boyz CSM army totaled about 76 models.

Lash is largely irrelevant because there's nothing worth lashing, and Chaos simply can't bring enough firepower to bear quickly enough. If you sit on the table, you can destroy, potentially, three vehicles on turn 1 with 3 Heavy slots shooting. If you get first turn. If the IG player gets first turn, you can either try Reserves tricks, which he can counter with mystics to a large extent, or a lot of your gak is going to die.

-Same thing with Space Wolves, and some well-built marine lists. Space Wolves especially will not only out-shoot you with cost effective AC Dreads, Long Fangs, and massed Razorbacks, but can also outfight you. TCav will put the hurt on any unit save for maybe Kharn or Abaddon, and are so fast that they can stay out of arms reach. Wolf Lords will generally outfight other Chaos HQs, save for maybe Abaddon again, but once more the speed issue can come into play.

I do agree that the old Lash Chaos build is fully capable of handing a mediore list or player their ass on a cracker, but the same can be said for the newer generation of IG/SW/mech Marines, and in the competitive matchups, I'd much rather have the newer codices.

I agree with 40kE. Chaos can hold it's own vs those IG and SW lists. Think outside the box. No PM's and no Lash, it can still work. Remember nothing beats everything 100% of the time and the point of the game is to win the mission, not line up and kill things.

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?


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I will say I would be remiss to say I don't wish for a more viable shooting element from the Chaos FA slots.

Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Actually, the Warlock in the squad can fire the Eldar's heavy weapon so its BS4, but I digress.

Lol, I play Dark Angels, if you think Chaos has it bad...

Anyways, on topic, I think really what it is; is that Chaos players need to adjust to the new power builds.

It looks like heavy weapon spam and lots of tanks has returned in full force after a temporary hiatus. It's just a matter of designing a new army that fits better.

I do agree that Chaos is a 2nd tier army now. There is no question that the last few codecies have had their power turned up.

DarkHound wrote:Actually, the Warlock in the squad can fire the Eldar's heavy weapon so its BS4, but I digress.

No he doesn't! Not that I've ever seen anyways. the gun is based on the two gunner figs, not the squad as a whole.

Page 55 of the main rulebook, under "The Unit," second paragraph. The Warlock is the leader of the squad and is able to use the artillery peice.

Yeah, I think the Chaos codex has run out of juice as far as being at the top.

DarkHound wrote:Page 55 of the main rulebook, under "The Unit," second paragraph. The Warlock is the leader of the squad and is able to use the artillery peice.

Yeah, I think the Chaos codex has run out of juice as far as being at the top.

The heavy weapon in a guardian squad is not an artillery piece in any way, shape, or form, and the codex tells you to use one of the two models specified for using the platform. The warlock may not.

Well, hell, I got the wool pulled over my eyes then. I'll have to have a chat with that Space Elf the next time I see him.

DarthDiggler wrote:I agree with 40kE. Chaos can hold it's own vs those IG and SW lists. Think outside the box. No PM's and no Lash, it can still work. Remember nothing beats everything 100% of the time and the point of the game is to win the mission, not line up and kill things.

No offense intended, but banalities like 'think outside the box' absolutely do not a better codex make. The Chaos dex is very much an in-the-box codex; moving metal boxes, called rhinos. The codex can be successful based on the strength/viability of its troops alone, but with the newer codices also having excellent troops as well as excellent Fast and Elite options and dynamic deployment, it's very much behind the curve.

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?

Of course I am. Special and heavy weapons, as I already said. Regardless of where they are or what carries them, a bulked up IG list has more guns than most lists have models at 2500.

Think about Gift of Chaos. Your opponents shooty squad just lost a guy, and they`re fighting a free Spawn. I like the sound of that

sourclams wrote:

Sourclams - 80 heavy weapons in 2500pts huh? You must be including any str 5+ weapon on vehicles as a heavy weapon right?

Of course I am. Special and heavy weapons, as I already said. Regardless of where they are or what carries them, a bulked up IG list has more guns than most lists have models at 2500.

Ok that is what I thought. I have trouble thinking of multi-lasers and heavy flamers on chimeras as heavy weapons since the chimera moves and almost nothing fires, but I uderstand your point.

Here's an outside the box Chaos list that does quite well.

HQ - DP, MOK
HQ - DP, wings, MOS, lash
EL - dread, extra arm, heavy flamer
EL - dread, extra arm, heavy flamer
EL - Dread, twin-heavy bolter, missile
TR - 10 csm, lascannon, plasmagun
TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun
TR - 10 csm, 2 - meltagun, Icon of khorne, rhino
TR - 10 - csm, missile, meltagun, icon of slaanesh, rhino
HV - predator destructor, dozer blade
HV - predator destructor, dozer blade
HV - 3 obliterators

No plaguemarines, one lash, one unit of oblits, only 2 rhinos and most importantly no one unit that must be stopped. Anything can be lost from this list and it will remain effective.

The list you put up loses shoot-outs with shooty lists, and loses fistfights with fighty lists.

You have two missile launchers, two lascannons, two Predators and three Oblits.

You have four meltaguns.

In the mirror match, your list loses to the standard Lash/Oblit/PM spam list.

This is an outside-the-box list, but it's absolutely not competitive.

sourclams wrote:The list you put up loses shoot-outs with shooty lists, and loses fistfights with fighty lists.

You have two missile launchers, two lascannons, two Predators and three Oblits.

You have four meltaguns.

In the mirror match, your list loses to the standard Lash/Oblit/PM spam list.

This is an outside-the-box list, but it's absolutely not competitive.

I assault shooty lists and I shoot assault lists. Top Tier competitive list do not always win by doing one thing. That is a fallacy in list building that never bores out on the tabletop. One trick pony armies regularly beat average players, but can not win regularly against the top players All competitive lists must be able to vacilate between strategies in order to be successful against all comers. That is an important truth to learn to be successful at tournaments.

Why do you think meltaguns are the only way to kill a tank? Another fallacy I see is people think melta is the only way to stop a tank. That shows limited thinking. I don't have 4 meltaguns. I have 2 units with meltaguns. That is a better way to think about it. 7 units to reach out to touch tanks and 4 units to slaughter tanks in HtH. I've beaten IG parking lots played by Adepticon champions with this list. I'm sorry you don't know how to play the list. I guess I play better 'outside the box' than most.

It's not worth arguing with you. You've posted a bunch of misc rubbish, and said 'it's not second tier because I win all the time'.

Never mind that if you move your troops to assault shooty lists, you lose half of your heavy weapon fire.

And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

Congrats, you are clearly a far better player than I.

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

I don't have 4 meltaguns. I have 2 units with meltaguns.

@ Darth, Dont you have 3 units with melta guns? And also i think the best way to do a hybrid list is for half the units to be good at shooting and the other half good at assaulting. But mixing and matching isnt bad i just dont prefer it i like to know that certain units will get the job done. The only unit that boggles me is the TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun. To much points to move it and lose the LC shot imo. But if it works it works. I think a plasma gun woud work with a LC alot better then a melta gun imo.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

I dont see why you cant use IG as a standard. I still think all but necrons and tau are in the top tier. Its just IG (no offense to all IG players) have a easier time as they are based at being great at range/horde so tactics can be kinda bypassed as alot of guns is always great and few armies can hang with IG at a range IMHO. I mean all armies have a weakness.

Guitardian wrote:Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Yes you are whining. You have done it this entire thread about your silly eldar. Why you are footslogging guardians with heavy weapons is beyond me, and i can complain about wave serpents full of fire dragons and banshees if you really wanna go there. But this is a chaos thread, quit complaining about eldar.


As to OP's statement. Halsfield got it right away. Chaos havent gotten worse, everything else has just gotten better. I have never used Lash, Oblit, and PM spam. Mainly because my daemon princes are always in CC and lash would be a waste for them. If i really wanted lash i would get a sorc and throw him with some CSM in a rhino. I think that is way more powerfull. A lash sorc in a rhino gets armor and a nice csm squad for wound shielding. But this isnt the real point of the thread i suppose.

CSM are still a very viable option depending on how you play them. This is true with all dex's. Dark eldar are still used and their codex is older than the hills, but strategies are made.

As to the jab at bezerkers being ineffective it really goes like this, if they get the charge they will kill the squad. If they dont, chances are they will die. But the only reason that is true is because bezerkers are a threat, so my opponents send tough things at them. A 10 man squad of bezerkers has around 40 attacks on the charge, on a 30 strong ork boy squad. Hitting on 3's wounding on 3's zerkers shouldnt have a problem. I have had a 10 man squad of zerkers take down 3 grey knight terminators on the charge, a difficult task.

Overall, still a viable list just need to try and think beyond Lash.

Chaos are still beefy, it's just that they have been around longer and people expect the same things due to...IMO a lack of options in various FoC that perform that differently from the universal standard that is SM.

And yes, new codicies have nice neat tricks that are trick ponyish and need time to adjust to.

It LOOKS like a second tier army, but any good player/general wielding an army they know inside out will do well no matter what the net speak say.

FoeHammer wrote:

@ Darth, Dont you have 3 units with melta guns? And also i think the best way to do a hybrid list is for half the units to be good at shooting and the other half good at assaulting. But mixing and matching isnt bad i just dont prefer it i like to know that certain units will get the job done. The only unit that boggles me is the TR - 10 csm, lascannon, meltagun. To much points to move it and lose the LC shot imo. But if it works it works. I think a plasma gun woud work with a LC alot better then a melta gun imo.

Yes you are right. I do have 3 units with meltaguns and not 2. I like the two 10-man units out of rhinos to sit back and hold my objective(s). I like the meltagun in that unit because I would not like to see a soul grinder or podding dreadnought to run through my backfield as the rest of the army advanced. I like lists that can play both games, shooting and assaulting, if and when necessary. Guard need to get assaulted. I've used the Rhino's and Pred's as shields for the Dreads and DP's to get close and get into the IG lines. The 3 squads of CSM with heavy weapons can sit back to move over objectives and shoot across the board at the enemy with the Oblits and shooty dread. It works remarkably well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:
Congrats, you are clearly a far better player than I.

Always remember that.

Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Night Lords wrote:

sourclams wrote:
And never mind that if you bunker up to shoot fighty lists, you're trying to make a gunline with 1/5 of the firepower of a gunline list.

And 3x the close combat ability. Chaos Marines can shoot and assault at the same time.

Long range fire support does not need to outshoot anything, they just need to support the troops in the rhinos.

Using IG as a standard is ridiculous as they are in their own tier as is, and their strengths are CSM's weaknesses.

And space wolves do it better than CSM. Your troops in rhinos are solid, it's the troops out of the rhinos that could have some problems.

It's easy to tailor a list with CSM (or most other armies), it's quite a different thing to make an all-comers list with CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40kenthusiast wrote:Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Ummm...

Tailoring lists is not what this should be about. After all, in a competitive environment such as a tournament, you don't get that option.

eNvY wrote:How is a 2+ save with 2 wounds squishy? That's twice as tough as a terminator. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about terminators being fragile.

Lascannons, my friend. Oblits get wrecked by them, since they're T4. And termies usually come in squads of more than 3.

Plus, oblits are hella expensive, at what, 75 points each?

I'm actually thinking of going retro in response to changes with space puppies, mech IG, and Nids.

Back in 3rd edition I would field a havok squad with 4 missile launchers. In the current 5th ed I'm starting to think it might be a good idea again.

Lets look another look at the 4 missile launcher havok squad.

It's 150 points: Same cost as 2 obliterators.

It's 4 shots against vechicles or MC.

Mathhammer favors 4 str 8 shots over 2 str9 shots against AV11 and AV12 targets. Rhinos and Chimera are AV11 and AV12.

Mechanized CSM armies have enough melta guns that we don't need to worry about dropping lascannon shots into AV14 targets. Melta guns, Deamon Princes, and SGD work just fine against Land Raiders.

There is no advantage of shooting a str6 MC with a str 9 weapon over a Str8 weapon.

The only Nid MC with a 2+ save is a carnifax, which has become obsolete when compared to other MC options nid players have now.

Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

imweasel wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

40kenthusiast wrote:Here's an "outside the box" list that I've used against Guard with some success.

Abaddon
Kharn the Betrayer
20 Plague Marines w/champ
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
Land Raider w/dozer blade
5 Plague Marines w/champ
5 Plague Marines w/champ
Summoned Greater Daemon

Abaddon + Kharn + 20 Plague Marines walk up the board in a long line, seperated at max coherency. Small arms fire bounces off, because they are t5 FNP. Psyker powers are blocked by Kharne, small templates can hit one on a direct hit, large templates can hit 3. Because they are winding through stuff they pretty much always have cover.

Casualties are removed from the back of the line.

Land Raiders shoot Guard vehicles with twin linked lascannons, and sit on objectives being armor 14.

Guard could probably pull a draw in drawfest, but in KP they will lose, and in multi-objectives they will lose.

This list doesn't fall down vs. normal enemy lists either, although you don't always use the snake technique.

I think this fulfills the requirements of A, beats Guard, and B, doesn't have marines in rhinos supported by Oblits/Lash.

CSM is a fine book.

Ummm...

Tailoring lists is not what this should be about. After all, in a competitive environment such as a tournament, you don't get that option.

In all fairness it's not really a tailored list. It's fairly tough due to heavy reliance on AV14, PMs, and super characters. Undeniably a Death Star-type list, though, and a slow one at that. The massive squad size makes you vulnerable to dynamic assault out of range of Abaddon/Kharn even with the 6" pile in, and their already-slow speed makes them more of an area-denial squad than an offensive power house. Similarly it lacks really any way to stop other Land Raider lists at range, giving a decisive advantage to basic Marine Big Rock lists.

I think the real weakness is the utter lack of mobility. If the Land Raiders move, they lose all but one lascannon firing. Abaddon and Co are slow as molasses, especially if they have to go through/around terrain, and the low model count makes it relatively easy for mobile lists to simply duck around.

And if your opponent has the ability to outflank melta squads, you're in real trouble.

Spellbound wrote:Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

Only Tervigons can give FNP to a tyranid list, and only to a single unit per turn. Since missile launchers also insta kill warriors, zoenthropes, and the doom there will be an overabundance of optimal targets for missiles whenever fighting bugs. The extra point cost for lascannons is just not worth the cost purely to get around catalyst when fatalist can not protect all of the priority targets that it needs to cover.

Necrons are irrelevant, you said so yourself. Necrons are a true T2/T3/Tier 4 army. If a chaos player can't beat necrons the problem is with the chaos player. Attacking Monoliths is a complete waste of time when any list that spends points on Monoliths is easy to phase out by killing enough warriors.

Mechanized troops with metla guns is the ideal way to slag tanks. I just don't see the need for lascannons in a chaos army in most games. Str 8 missiles work just fine against AV12 and under. Anything AV13+ is slow enough to be caught by melta guns. I think it's time to give cut back on the # of obliterators. Most players only use it as a lascannon or plasma cannon, and we just don't need to be spending 70 points on a single lascannon.

Long Fangs are better than havocs. Long fangs are also better than Devastators, so does that mean all loyalist marine armies are now T2 armies? Space wolves did get a ridiculously good deal on long fangs, but that's their codex. Envy of another codex's toys won't help out a CSM army, and if we need missiles then we'll have to make do with havocs instead of long fangs. It's either that, or convert your CSM into corrupted space wolves so you can go play under a different codex.

Spellbound wrote:Something to consider:

A T6 model with FNP gets a 4+ save against an AP3 weapon like a missle launcher.

It does not against any AP2 weapon, like plasma or lascannons.

S8 can only glance a Monolith, and glancing hits cannot ever kill monoliths unless by melta.

The Monolith is a throwaway comparison I'll admit, as generally you could just beat the necrons any number of other ways. But the first example basically brings up new nids. It makes it a lot harder to bring down that charging trygon or that tervigon sitting on an objective when they're at effectively double their wounds.

And while we're doing comparisons, Chaos can take a 155 point 4-missle launcher havoc squad, sure. Space Wolves pay 140 for 6 men with 5 missle launchers that re-roll night fight dice, get counterattack, auto-regroup below half strength, and can split fire.

If you like, you can then attach a Wolf Guard in terminator armour with a cyclone launcher for a total of 7 missle launcher shots per squad. Granted that's more points, but the squad also now has a model it can toss AP3 wounds on and likely save, increasing durability more than you'd think. That's neither here nor there. Just stating that for FEWER points you get MORE marines with MORE heavy weapons and MORE special rules.

Meltaguns really are the most reliable way to kill tanks. Turning your odds from 1/3 to 1/2 to kill them works wonders. Really, the new vehicle damage table from 5th and the new squadron rules have made vehicles a real pain to kill - which I think was needed, though the new trend to then make 40 point minidreds [kans], 30 point buggies, and 35 point rhinos and 50 point chimeras was a bit misguided. When you need to kill lots of tanks fast, and you don't have that many weapons, melta is the way to go. If you DO have a lot of weapons [Guard, Eldar, DEldar, SW] then you can bring more long-range stuff and make the enemy come to you.

Lol and space wolves dont have DSing inless you have a Drop pod, no deamons, no oblits, no super troopers (Zerkers, noise, plague, and 1k marines) they are different armies how are you gonna complain about that. Do you want to play all the same codex? If you want to bitch about something bitch about Air Cav guard that is something to reckon with.

@sour: Not saying it's the end all and be all, but it's great vs. Guard/shooting, and not utterly wretched vs. other assault. You don't really need to move the land raiders often, they just sit on your objective and fire while the PM's move up onto the enemy objective. Don't put the super squad in cover and you are usually all right.

Vs. enemy's who assault don't spread out like you do vs. templates.

I complain as I do about SW because I shy away from the overpriced plaguemarines, 1ksons, and inflexible berserkers. I use regular CSM and Noisemarines - really only 5 to get the doomsiren champion, and that's mostly for nostalgia reasons since I'm SUPPOSED to be playing Emperor's Children, despite having lost all real impetus for doing so.

Thus, since the basic CSM is the best thing chaos has, supported by its characters and some elite and heavy support options, enter the SW codex with better characters, customizable [and still effective] wargear builds, a more representative elites choice [wolf guard are what chosen should be!], better basic troops that are cheaper and better heavy support....

Gets my blood boiling, really.

Back to missles vs metagame though. It's not hard to have tervigons behind tervigons or tervigons behind trygons. One in front has FNP, one behind has cover. It's a catch 22 that your missle launchers are just not up to the task.

I personally use obliterators for their twin-linked flamers and plasmaguns, followed up by charging with their powerfists.

For 75 points though, they should have kept their S5 and their T4(5) if not T5.

mrwittwer wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Hey I can't even GET a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad with either of my armies. Oh wah wah I only get 1 lascannon in a 5-man squad? puuhhhleeez... Eldar can only put them on models that can't shoot straight, and Marines can only take one for every 10 men. I'm not whining about that because I know my army has its strengths and weaknesses too, but how can you complain about getting boo hoo only 1 out of 5 guys with heavy weapon options?!

Yes you are whining. You have done it this entire thread about your silly eldar. Why you are footslogging guardians with heavy weapons is beyond me, and i can complain about wave serpents full of fire dragons and banshees if you really wanna go there. But this is a chaos thread, quit complaining about eldar.


As to OP's statement. Halsfield got it right away. Chaos havent gotten worse, everything else has just gotten better. I have never used Lash, Oblit, and PM spam. Mainly because my daemon princes are always in CC and lash would be a waste for them. If i really wanted lash i would get a sorc and throw him with some CSM in a rhino. I think that is way more powerfull. A lash sorc in a rhino gets armor and a nice csm squad for wound shielding. But this isnt the real point of the thread i suppose.

CSM are still a very viable option depending on how you play them. This is true with all dex's. Dark eldar are still used and their codex is older than the hills, but strategies are made.

As to the jab at bezerkers being ineffective it really goes like this, if they get the charge they will kill the squad. If they dont, chances are they will die. But the only reason that is true is because bezerkers are a threat, so my opponents send tough things at them. A 10 man squad of bezerkers has around 40 attacks on the charge, on a 30 strong ork boy squad. Hitting on 3's wounding on 3's zerkers shouldnt have a problem. I have had a 10 man squad of zerkers take down 3 grey knight terminators on the charge, a difficult task.

Overall, still a viable list just need to try and think beyond Lash.

Man I am very much not whining... I'm not saying wah wah my Eldar got nerfed so much as saying... we all have strengths and weaknesses with any codex, and using my Eldar as an example. Yeah I know a footslog of guardians is weak, but we get drop and pop dragons for instance. Which other players can complain about all they want, but when my troops go down to flashlights, and their power armor is beaten my my army's strength, I figure it all kind of evens out. I'm so friggin sorry the Chaos lash list isn't quite as abusively overpowered as it once was as other codex get released, but older armies find a way to adapt if the players do. Don't accuse me of whining when I am just trying to use an example. meanie.

The main thing that i think is lackign in the CSM codex when compared to, for example, C:SM is ICs that grant an army-wide bonus (Vulcan with meltas, Pedro with Stubborn) and the ability to make oter units scoring (catain on bike etc etc).

On the other hadn we do have 5 different troops choices, each with their own flavour. Which is more than a lot of armies can boast.

our dreads, i believe, get an extar cc attack when compared to SM dreads.

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

Praxiss wrote:The main thing that i think is lackign in the CSM codex when compared to, for example, C:SM is ICs that grant an army-wide bonus (Vulcan with meltas, Pedro with Stubborn) and the ability to make oter units scoring (catain on bike etc etc).

On the other hadn we do have 5 different troops choices, each with their own flavour. Which is more than a lot of armies can boast.

our dreads, i believe, get an extar cc attack when compared to SM dreads.

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

But often our dreads will be force to shoot when we need them to fight, or forced to run forward when we need them to shoot.

Yeah, but every other army has their little discrepancies too. Why do SMurfs cost more than grey hunters for instance? I just really don't see how "He get's this and I only get this!" sort of thing helps, because, on his end he can call "Hey why doesn't my psyker get lash?" or "why is your xx unit so cheap?" whatever uneven codex balance on one area just becomes a rant from another player. Just trust your dice gods, they have far more effect than a point here or there between armies. Chaos is great.

SM prob. cost a bit more to lump the points into a 'free' Vet and the weapons that come with reaching 10 members.
_________

That aside, I agree Chaos is great...whether you use the CSM codex, SM codex, SW codex, or the upcoming BA codex

That's a different kind of chaos though bro.... hee hee hee...


---btw notice the 'free' vet isnt actually free as the first 5 marines cost more than the added 5 marines. blame guilleman for only thinking in 10s, and insisting on a leader, and not allowing weapons to squads that don't obey his numbers.

Praxiss wrote:

Finally, and i am now fan of this unit, the Defiler is a walker, with fleet, with up to 4 DCCWs, a battle cannon and Tl autocannon! For 150 points. bargain.

...on a massive AV12 model with no some launchers, in a meta geared towards killing light vehicles. You might get to fire that battlecannon once before your heap of scrap metal goes down in a hail of autocannon fire.

Defilers get smoke launchers

Every model is expendable though. Maybe their entire purpose is that they are so ridiculously offensive (battcan + CC badass) but somewhat easy to bring down makes them a decoy to the badguy's plans having to divert shots just to bring it down? That's how I use my Vypers... just a distraction to psyche the other guy out.

@Guitardian:
I don't think you read my 'free' part the way I intended it. What I typed there was basically saying what you said... that's why there are ' ' around free and not just free by itself .

Like I said, SM are more expensive because they lump in the weapons and the vet into it. In a direct sense it's a free Vet, indirectly it's 'free' as in you've paid for it, see?

Well sure, but CSM get the option right? That's a big difference IMO when you want to max out heavy weapon troop squads. That's why they're chaos, right? Not obeying Guilleman's rule of 10?

@Guitardian:
Sheesh, I was only giving one answer to your question as to why SM cost a bit more... I had not intention of getting into SM vs CSM troop unit comparisons. IMO they are entirely different and do not warrent this comparison...

Um... CSM still obey Guilleman's rule of 10 if they want a second Special weapon or a single heavy weapon to mimic the Tactical squads...

Sure, the CSM get the option for getting a Champ, whoop-di-do. They prob. need it for the Ld10 as they don't have ATSKNF or they fork out the points for IoCG, etc, etc. Different units, different roles, different synergy, different edition of entry even.

/shrug. I'm prob. just not as informed as others are when it comes to comparing troop choices across armies.

The chaos space marines have alot of advantages. One thing that i truly love is the lesser deamons. I love tossing icons on my plague marines because its cheap and i get some awsome CC reinforcement for my plaguemarines that my enemy never knows where they will come in and charge asap(with no random landing place, hurray for icons)

I hate the concept of tiers, because its a rare day that you play an equally skilled opponent with fully tooled up lists. Its very what if. And closes peoples minds.

But chaos is not the king of the hill in the standard what if situation.

However

CSM suck for me because

I hate:

DP
PM
Fzorgle
Obilts

I.e all the strong gak.

And spamming melta CSM in rhinos is not fun.

Also previous list written (with the 20 PMs) suffers form death star unit syndrome.. I want redundancy dammit.

epil wrote:The chaos space marines have alot of advantages. One thing that i truly love is the lesser deamons. I love tossing icons on my plague marines because its cheap and i get some awsome CC reinforcement for my plaguemarines that my enemy never knows where they will come in and charge asap(with no random landing place, hurray for icons)

Just want to point out that the randomness of lesser daemons is both helpful and hurtful. I would also like to point out how expensive they are when you could spend a tiny bit more and get a csm with all the trimmings(and only have to spend more time getting them there). The shooting round of a turn should not be undervalued.

@Halsfield:
I don't know... the worst Lessers could do is come in turn 1...anything else is creampie IMO.

As for Lesser Daemons vs. CSM...
130 for 10, while CSM who need to be kitted to do their job are what...255? (10, fist, IoCG, 2 Meltas, Rhino).

Lesser daemons are 'cheaper' by alot because of their lack of upgrades. The CSM to perform their role need those upgrades.

Realistically speaking it would end up those 10 CSM with their tools paid for would have the oppurtunity cost of 20 lesser daemons.

Obviously everbody has thier likings between the two, but in my CSM list anyway, the 20 lesser daemons make their way into my lists more than Defilers/Raptors/CSMs. They add alot of bodies truely.

I would heartily disagree with your assessment of LDs versus CSM.

To do the job of the lessers, CSM need 10 bodies and a rhino. That puts them at 55 points more, but they have guns and a vehicle. They've also got grenades, and a better armor save offsets the 5+ invul.

If you're going to fully kit out the CSM squad, then quite clearly they can do a good deal more than LDs.

Can we get off the Lesser Daemons? I don't think anybody is questioning that they are a fine use of your last X points, if you've got some icons around. A scoring unit that can charge on the turn it shows up isn't exactly controversial.

If I understand the thrust of this topic, it's not that CSM aren't variable, nor that they aren't fluffy, or whatever. The topic claims they can't compete nowadays. That they are second tier, when compared with the new books.

My take on that is that your basic CSM list beats Nids handily, loses to Guard slightly less handily, and has an even game vs. Space Wolves. None of these seem like terribly controversial assertions. That's a respectable matrix, you can take it to a tourney without feeling guilty about giving points away. In other words, it's a strong list, certainly as much so as Space Wolves or Space Marines.

@Sourclams:

Ugh...I'm not gonna get into that here...as I've written about it extensively on it elsewhere.

Agree to Disagree.

When an identical model from one codex costs more points than the same model taken from a different codex, the more expensive codex is obviously at a disadvantage.

CSM have this problem.

Vindicators and Predators are outright cheaper in the newer marine codexes. Exact same models, cost more. Other units are more expensive than their equivalents too, although the details can be quibbled. Bikes, Jump-packers, Devs/Havoks, etc.

Compare the 1500 point lists below:

Space Marines:

Librarian w/ Null Zone & Avenger
Dread w/ TL Las
Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Melta, Sgt w/ powerfist & combi-melta, rhino
Tac Squad w/ Missile Launcher, flamer, Sgt w/ powerfist, combi-flamer, rhino
10 assault marines w/ 2 flamers, powerfist sgt
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Devs w/ 4 ML


C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML


What's different here?
Let's see, the CSM troop squads get 2 attacks each.

In exchange...
The Space Marines can combat squad, fielding twice the scoring units, and allowing their special weapons to get in range while their heavy weapons sit back at range.
The SM have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.
The SM's dread isn't going to go insane and shoot his own unit - or charge forward when that lascannon shot is needed.
The SM's librarian lacks an inv. save, but has a psychic hood!! and two powers.
One of the SM dreads gets to shoot with BS5.
The SM vindicator comes with a storm bolter (while still costing 10 points less)

Oh yeah, and the SM list still has roughly 150 more points to spend. They can still add a pair of MM/HF land speeders.


Anything that is generically marinish is overpriced in the C:CSM. You have no psychic defense, which is huge in a tournament. You have unreliable dreads, a lack of decent inexpensive units (like speeders), and overpriced basic men.

The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

Well, as you say the Spiky SMurfs are not supposed to operate with a mirror list to the Smurfs.

CSM get 2 Attacks, yup.
Combat squad is cool, but it has its pros and cons, the most you can say is that the option is nice to have, but CSM are not really the sort to go with Hvy weapons, so IMO it's moot to point this out.
ATSKNF/combat tactics: IoCG should really parallel with ATSKF and the extra point of Ld too, as for combat tactics, much like combat squad, it's nice to have the option, but has it's pros and cons.
CSM Dread: it can also go the other way: getting 2 shots with the multi-melta on the enemy LR facing you or fleeting into combat with the enemy monolith.
SM Libby is more for utility, while the Chaos Sorc is more of a fighter.
I don't know why you brought up the Ven dread if you are trying to compare the two lists with no Ven dread in sight...
As for the vindi, no arguements there, but the Vindi should really be Possessed or bust.

That aside, the CSM is not supposed to mirror the SM list...they are different armies, different units, applied differently.

Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

I agree, IMO it's unthinkable to want to mirror a SM codex with CSM, bonuses or not.

Redbeard wrote:<Snip>
C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML

So what youre saying is dont try to play exactly like Space Marines with a book that is completely different?

Chaos Marines are better than Tacticals. Infact, theyre so much better that you will even see 40 Chaos Marines in a standard list. I have never seen 40 tacticals in a SM list. I find more often than not that tacticals are kept to a bare minimum because theyre worthless. 2 meltas, an icon and x2 the amount of attacks is a pretty big difference.

I now use dreads to help with long range fire support, and I would never equip them with a lascannon. Keep them cheap and safe with Missiles or Plasma Cannons (or even an extra arm giving them 4 attacks, 5 on charge). I used to hate dreads because of their rules, but I find that theyre so cheap and add so much armour to my list that they actually do extremely well.

Chaos Predators are better than Space Marine Predators. Not because of their points, or because of additional options, but because of the role they play. For example, if someone shoots my predator as a Chaos player, Im happy. The odds of destroying it are low, and if they stun it, its not big deal because the troops in rhinos (the core of the army) just moved up another 12". If Im a general SM player, having my predator get stunned is a bad thing (against most armies) because I would need that shooting to say...shoot Chaos rhinos heading towards my line.

Havoks are better than devs because of autocannons. Autocannons are beastly. There is absolutely no need for obliterators (theyre a good option, just not necessarily needed).

I hate the Chaos Vindicator, infact its one of two models I dont own. I would rank it 6th in the Heavy Support category.


Pretty much my point is, you cant make a SM list with its own goal in mind, convert it to a CSM list, and say "this doesnt work, the marines in the CSM dex suck".

By the way, a Prince is a marine.

Something I'll point out is that I started back into 40k with a Blood Angels/Chaos Space Marine army - designed to be playable under either list, and I was astonished at how differently they played despite using the same models.

The problem seems to be that people expect Marines to be Marines whether they're Blue, Red, Furrie, or Spiky. Each army needs to be played to their own strengths. Codex Space Marines are defensive and low risk, while Chaos Space Marines are high reward and high power, etc.

Redbeard wrote:Compare the 1500 point lists below:

Space Marines:

Librarian w/ Null Zone & Avenger
Dread w/ TL Las
Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Melta, Sgt w/ powerfist & combi-melta, rhino
Tac Squad w/ Missile Launcher, flamer, Sgt w/ powerfist, combi-flamer, rhino
10 assault marines w/ 2 flamers, powerfist sgt
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Devs w/ 4 ML


C:SM
Sorceror w/ Wind of Chaos
Dread w/ TL Las
10 C:SM, Lascannon, Melta, champ w/ powerfist, combi-melta, rhino
10 C:SM, Missile, flamer, champ w/ combi-flamer, rhino
10 Raptors w/ 2 flamers, powerfist champ
Vindicator
Predator w/ autocannon, HB sponsons
8 Havoks w/ 4 ML

.

I dont mean to offend but all this does is prove that CSM are not the same as C:SM. I would never ever run a Chaos list like the your example. Your comparison highlights all of the space marines good points and none of chaos's good points. Chaos Marines should in no way be played the same as Space Marines.

Double melta, plasma, or flamers on CSM squads and NO HEAVY WEAPONS. Chaos Dreads should never use a lascannon, the best way is double CC weapons with flamer. Autocannons on the havocs. Raptors are generally bad, unless they are used as tank hunters with double melta. And a plain Sorcerer with nothing but wind is very poor.

While the two lists are comparative, it makes absolutely no difference what the cost difference is as CSM should never be loaded out as such.

Mind you, I think it would be very instructive for people to play one game as the Codex list and another game as the Chaos list.

I'm not saying they should be played the same. Geeze, you guys don't even read whole posts do you.

Redbeard wrote:
The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

That said, regardless of the book, it is poor game design to have point costs based on how you believe a codex should play.

The stated design goal of using points is so that two players can show up and play a game and know that their forces are reasonably balanced.

That is the stated design goal. It's stated explicitly on page ix of the rulebook. "Whatever you choose within this total, the battle will be a fair match, decided by good tactics, and a little bit of luck."

If I want to play my chaos marines as recently rebelling traitors and renegades (isn't that the new fluff??) who haven't yet dedicated themselves to chaos or set off to become daemons, my army should still be able to sit on the table and expect a fair match.

With that as the stated design goal, it is a failure if a player shows up with identical models, but due to the book they chose to use to make that army, has to face off against an obviously superior enemy that has both superior rules, and also two extra units (the land speeders) to boot.

If Chaos Space Marines aren't supposed to be able to function like marines, then this needs to be reflected in what the codex allows me to take, not the point costs of what I am allowed to take.

Telling me that my stuff is bad because the codex isn't meant to be used that way only reinforces the fact that GW cannot meet their own stated design goal, and that the C:CSM codex is underpowered. But then we all know that GW rules-writers cannot do a decent job.

I know the way it is - and that's that you can make a decent C:CSM army, if you focus on the Chaos part, not the Marine part. But that's not how it should be.

Redbeard wrote:I'm not saying they should be played the same. Geeze, you guys don't even read whole posts do you.

Redbeard wrote:
The only way that C:CSM is competitive is if you stick to the things that you can't do better and cheaper in the standard Marine codex. Cult Troops, Oblits, Daemon Princes, Marks, to some extent - if you're going to make a competitive CSM list, that's what you need to look at. Cause if you're running the Marine part of Chaos Space Marines you can't compete on even footing.

Except thats the part I disagree with. I do not use oblits, defilers, cultists, daemons, etc. The closest thing I use is a Prince, who also happens to be a marine.

I use Dreads, Preds, Havocs, and even Raptors - all things you just said are not competitive.

Redbeard:

Suppose, just for a second, that we might actually reject your premise that the CSM list you've cited is not on an even footing with the SM list you've cited. Suppose also that we might reject the notion that GW has somehow missed a design goal in not ensuring that Chaos Space Marines can be played in the same way as Codex Space Marines. Then you can see why we might reject your conclusions, and hence appear as though we have not be entirely convinced by your cunning arguments.

Furthermore you say:

Redbeard wrote:That said, regardless of the book, it is poor game design to have point costs based on how you believe a codex should play.

Redbeard wrote:I know the way it is - and that's that you can make a decent C:CSM army, if you focus on the Chaos part, not the Marine part. But that's not how it should be.

So you believe that the points-costs should be otherwise than what the designers believe they should be. How is your approach to the army any better than theirs?

Sanctjud wrote:
So the icon system, double specials, +1 LD for champ, uber grit doesn't make them different enough?

Icons are close - they let you set your guys up for different roles more easily, but at another cost. +1 Ld for champ - realistically is not a big deal. If you're losing combats, you're still rolling against penalties. If you're taking tests from shooting, you're getting a 1/9th better chance - but you don't have ATSKNF to recover from it as well either. Uber-grit? I don't know that one.. Unless that's what you're calling everyone having a BP/CCW and Bolter. But that (And the ability to take 2 specials) - okay, so compare to the cost for Grey Hunters instead of SM, and you're still over-priced.

But the point about game design still stands. If it's the icon system that is important in making C:CSM work, then you should be required to take one, not allowed to take one. Being allowed to take one also implies that I'm allowed to not take one. And, if I choose not to take one, my list should still be viable based on the points I spent on it. That is the clearly stated design goal.

You don't need to take Icons. There's a reason why the Icon of Chaos Glory is the preferred Icon, because it's the cheapest - if you need an Icon as a Deep Strike beacon, and a squad bonus, then that Icon does the job. Otherwise, unless you're making up for specific deficiencies, Chaos Space Marines get along fine without them.

Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines? If so how does that make sense. And it seems your forgetting every other space marine chapter that has different point costs. Are you telling me Blood Angles, Space Wolves, Black Templars and all of the other chapters should have the exact same options and points? Then things really become just different colored marines and we really dont need anything except 1 codex.

And your argument says that since they are both marines they should be able to do the same job at the same price. Yet i cant say i have ever seen an all CC based Codex: Space Marine army. The reason a CSM Lascannon in a squad costs 20 points as opposed to the 10 for SM is because they are different. Chaos is strong in CC and they like CC, thats why they were given Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CC Weapon for 15 points. By comparison Codex: Space Marines lack this option but instead are given combat squads and ATSKNF. No where does it ever say that you cannot build CSM squads like Codex: SM tac squads. Its just going to cost more due to different benefits. Which only makes sense. Codex: Space Marines are THE Space Marines, chosen by the Emprah, they should get their gear cheaper.

Another point is that a Codex does have a general design in mind when it is made. I would like to see you argue that Tau are a legit CC army. Are you going to argue that since Tau cannot make a legit competitive CC army their codex is broken when they are obviously built for ranged fighitng? CSM are CC orientated, there is no doubt of this. Why then would the point costs be the same for ranged weaponry such as a lascannon?

The codex design is not flawed, its different. Not such a horrible thing.

mrwittwer wrote:Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines? If so how does that make sense. And it seems your forgetting every other space marine chapter that has different point costs. Are you telling me Blood Angles, Space Wolves, Black Templars and all of the other chapters should have the exact same options and points? Then things really become just different colored marines and we really dont need anything except 1 codex.

Not quite. There should definitely be differences, and those differences are where point costs should be different.

For example, consider a SM and a CSM. The SM gets ATSKNF and Combat Squads/Tactics. The CSM gets +1Ld and an extra CCW. Let's just assume that these things are worth the same points. You have two different forces, that will play differently, with the same price, and that's all good.

If the chaos squad can buy an icon that gives them a +stat for +points, this is still reasonable (assuming the prices on the +stat are right), and the forces get further apart, but cost different amounts, and we're still all good.

Compare this to a predator. One predator is as good as any other, right? But the SM predator destructor costs 15 points less. How is that reasonable? You say, "well, CSM shouldn't use predator destructors, that's not their thing" - BS. It's in the codex as an option, why shouldn't they use them? And why should they cost any different than the SM version?

Consider the assault marines/raptors thing. Same strengths and weaknesses as above, except that assault marines also have BP/CCW, so comparatively, a raptor and an assault marine are more similar than a space marine and a chaos space marine. The Marine still has combat squads and tactics, and ATSKNF, while the raptor still has +1LD. Well, if the extra CCW from the CSM/SM comparison was what made them even, then surely a raptor should cost less than an assault marine. Nope, they cost more.

Differences between codexes should be represented by what the army is allowed to take, what slots they're allowed to take them in, what stats and special rules they have. Not what the cost for identical (or near-identical) units is. You don't represent scarcity by overpricing something, you do it with 0-1 limits. You don't represent abundance by underpricing a unit, you do it by allowing to be a troop, or by making it 1+. That is good design. That means that when my friend and I decide to play a three-tank battle, he doesn't also end up with a land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines are THE Space Marines, chosen by the Emprah, they should get their gear cheaper.

This argument may be true in the fluff. It doesn't make for a good game though. Would it be a fair game if Marine players always got to add 100 points to whatever size game they were playing because they were chosen by the "Emprah"? The guiding principle behind points-based games is that you can make whatever army you want, within the constraints of what the army book allows, and play a fair game against any other army at that point cost. Comparing the most-similar units between CSM and SM, this is clearly not happening.

mrwittwer wrote:Redbeard:

Im still not sure i understand your argument. Are you implying that since Chaos Space Marines are still technically space marines they should have the exact same point costs as Codex: Space Marines?

No, I believe he's saying that the exact same unit in two army lists should have the same price. And if it doesn't have the same price, then it should have some sort of obvious advantage or disadvantage to explain the disparity.

And this strikes me as perfectly reasonable.

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

I agree, everyone stop playing chaos space marines at tournaments. That way I can break mine out and start playing with them, it was embarrassing going to a tournament with my plague marines and seeing 5 other chaos marine armies in a 16 person tournament.

If anything a Chaos predator should be slightly cheaper because chaos has a higher opportunity cost for using its HS slots, as it does not have the capability to take decent long-range units in other slots like Codex marines do.

No, if they are identical on the tabletop, as taken, then they should have the same price. Options are covered in the cost of the option. If I don't take my options, why should I be paying points for the ability to have taken them?

Likewise, opportunity cost has nothing to do with what I field. If I put my army on the table, and my opponent puts the same models down, but using a different codex, our point costs should be the same. The fact that I could have taken oblits or defilers is irrelevant at that time - I didn't take them, and I still want a fair game against my opponent's army.

Redbeard wrote:No, if they are identical on the tabletop, as taken, then they should have the same price. Options are covered in the cost of the option. If I don't take my options, why should I be paying points for the ability to have taken them?

Likewise, opportunity cost has nothing to do with what I field. If I put my army on the table, and my opponent puts the same models down, but using a different codex, our point costs should be the same. The fact that I could have taken oblits or defilers is irrelevant at that time - I didn't take them, and I still want a fair game against my opponent's army.

I actually agree with you. I think that the fact that Chaos players (myself included) have to pay more points for the same gear, or the other option is to get things that are different but still over-costed, is one of the big reasons why the Chaos codex does not hold up well against good players with good lists.

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

But identical CSM, Marine, and Space Wolf Predators do not cost the same, and thus CSM are at a disadvantage.

There was an assertion earlier that the overall army has to be taken in consideration because, for example, Chaos can do a better assault rush list than SM, therefore a more expensive Predator is not a big deal. That argument doesn't hold water with the introduction of the SW codex; SWs can also build a 40 Marine/3 Predator assault army cheaper, and more effectively than the CSM codex using Grey Hunters and Predators. Their lack of power fists in squads is made up for by flexibility in their force org, where Fast and Elite slots are more viable.

sourclams wrote:

But they aren't identical equipment because of the available options (such as possession, havoc racks). You could of course say that that should be in the price of the options, which I agree with but they aren't identical .

But identical CSM, Marine, and Space Wolf Predators do not cost the same, and thus CSM are at a disadvantage.

There was an assertion earlier that the overall army has to be taken in consideration because, for example, Chaos can do a better assault rush list than SM, therefore a more expensive Predator is not a big deal. That argument doesn't hold water with the introduction of the SW codex; SWs can also build a 40 Marine/3 Predator assault army cheaper, and more effectively than the CSM codex using Grey Hunters and Predators. Their lack of power fists in squads is made up for by flexibility in their force org, where Fast and Elite slots are more viable.

Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Hmmm... however a Wolf Lord can be a decent DP analog, and although they are more expensive they're capable of far more destruction and can be more durable as well, and are not vulnerable to psychic defense.

Night Lords wrote:
Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Are the exclusive tools Daemon Prince, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, Daemons, and Defiler?

Daemon Prince -> Wolf Lord
Plague Marines -> None
Berzerkers -> Twolf Cav
Daemons -> Fen Wolves
Defiler -> None, but AC dreads (and custom dread builds in general) compensate for more AV12, and Twolf Cav provide the same close combat beat-stick

@Sourclams:
You mean:
Spawn -> TWolf Cav

sourclams wrote:

Night Lords wrote:
Chaos still has exclusive tools, such as a daemon prince, which have different roles. These tools change the army and therefore you cannot simply say Space Wolves > CSM. Considering I use almost "marine units" exclusively, if they were so similar I could easily count my army as Space Wolves. However, when push comes to shove, you realize there are a ton of minor differences that still end up making it a much different army.

Are the exclusive tools Daemon Prince, Plague Marines, Berzerkers, Daemons, and Defiler?

Daemon Prince -> Wolf Lord
Plague Marines -> None
Berzerkers -> Twolf Cav
Daemons -> Fen Wolves
Defiler -> None, but AC dreads (and custom dread builds in general) compensate for more AV12, and Twolf Cav provide the same close combat beat-stick

Are you actually trying to suggest that SWs is CSM 4.5? It's getting a little ridiculous now.

Well, my DP *is* a cavalry model... he could easily be a Wolf Lord on a wolf. Wolfy wolf wolf.

Considering I now use my Word Bearers army exclusively as Space Wolves 4.5, and have no incentive to look back, I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Any build that I really wanted to make with Chaos (save PM FNP-spam) I can do with greater points efficiency using SW, and I get to utilize more FOC slots and have more "fun" with it in general.

A mirror-image CSM vs SM army simply wont work as a comparison. There is a reason CSM has different options than SM. Nobody complains that the eldar variant of a lascannon cost more than the SM version, it's all just down to the variety of lists. Guard pay more for MLs too than marines do, but it's just what it is. The parameters do include army choices and options that differ from the other guys army. Don't like CSM vehicle points costs? give em up and give up your sorceror and demon prince for a stupid chaplain or something while you're at it, because they didn't have the option to take those.

Guitardian:

What are you talking about? The fact that Bright Lances are more costly than Lascannons is the most popular complaint about them, right ahead of the complaint that they're not as effective...

On Topic:

I think that the problem here is that sourclams, at least, finds Space Wolves to be more effective at the configuration he wants to play, and only errs in over-generalizing this to mean Space Wolves are better than Chaos Space Marines in general. His findings don't disagree with the facts, that Space Wolves, Codex Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marines don't duplicate their optimal configurations.

I found through playing my dual Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army that they played better as Codex Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines, and of those two the configuration worked best using the Chaos Space Marine rules. That's partly why I now have a Codex Space Marine army and a Chaos Space Marine army, because an army playable as either didn't take full advantage of the unique strengths of either.

So I'm lead to the conclusion that people considering Chaos Space Marines "Second Tier" want their Chaos Space Marines to play like Space Wolves or Codex Space Marines, which they won't because they aren't. That's leaving aside the scrubs who don't have the skill to branch out beyond Dual-Lash, and think their one-trick-pony was the only competitive configuration in the Codex.

Part of this seems to stem from an aesthetic choice, something I'm pretty familiar with because that's how I chose my army when I got back into 40k. People want their army configuration and optimal tactics to fit the fluff they imagine for their army. And if they mis-configure their army to live up to some preconceived notion of how it should perform competitively, rather than how it does, then of course an army that isn't mis-configured when written like that will seem more competitive.

Where you err is in thinking that there is some configuration that I "want to play". I simply want to play a competitive configuration. If 50 Lesser Daemons deep striking off of Bike Icons was competitive, I'd play it. It's not; I don't.

With the exception of Lash+Oblits, which according to the internet is now a totally lame one-trick pony and only Internetards choose it over the easter eggs of awesomeness that is the rest of the Chaos Codex, Vanilla Marines or Wolves can do the build 'type' better.

Mech Gunline? Marines and Wolves
AV12 Monster Mash? Marines, and soon BA, although Chaos will come in a close 3rd
Terminators? Is Termicide allowed? Oh, no, because that's somehow lame and gimmicky? Then yeah, Marines
Foot gunline? Wolves
Fast assault? Wolves, and soon BA
HeroHammer? Wolves again, and soon BA
Lash+Oblits? Chaos

I have seen nothing in this thread that somehow opens up more options within a very generic and limited codex, which has been the complaint over current Chaos since... oh, it came out. As more armies get more options, the generic and limited codex only gets moreso.

"But you're not using Chaos with the [Optimal Configuration; proper synergy; out-of-the-box-non-cookie-cutter non-gimmick-reliance]!"

Yeah, okay, I squeezed everything I could out of the Chaos codex. Its average yield and maximum potential isn't nearly what Marines or Wolves are capable of. If you disagree, quantify your argument in a way that promotes debate. The vocal crowd that has been touting the strength of the Chaos codex for the last few months provide nothing in the way of competitive lists or meta shifts (props to you 40kenthusiast for at least trying) and merely sling around theoretical voodoo regarding how good Thousand Sons and Possessed coulda/shoulda been. Okay, great, you made them work, except that the overall trend is that clearly they don't and players don't take them.

Nurglitch wrote:

So I'm lead to the conclusion that people considering Chaos Space Marines "Second Tier" want their Chaos Space Marines to play like Space Wolves or Codex Space Marines, which they won't because they aren't. That's leaving aside the scrubs who don't have the skill to branch out beyond Dual-Lash, and think their one-trick-pony was the only competitive configuration in the Codex.

Yea that's definitely not how I play my army. I really don't like playing Space Marines, they're so static and dull.
I don't use lascannons (pretty much at all, except for the rare oblit shot), my dreads are not shooty or are defilers, I use DP's exclusively, etc.
I don't want to use drop pods (although DSing from the warp like a DP would be pretty cool/fluffy) or razorbacks or ever landraiders.

Part of this seems to stem from an aesthetic choice, something I'm pretty familiar with because that's how I chose my army when I got back into 40k. People want their army configuration and optimal tactics to fit the fluff they imagine for their army. And if they mis-configure their army to live up to some preconceived notion of how it should perform competitively, rather than how it does, then of course an army that isn't mis-configured when written like that will seem more competitive.

I could care less about fluff. It was just a coincidence that in 3.5 some fluff generally = ownage (IW, WB, Slaneesh Termies/Prince).
If I want fluff I can just make my own or find something that fits my playstyle (right now it's fallen angels)



This thread has been derailed hard by people complaining about Eldar (who still generally decimate CSM 1v1, Eldrad anyone?)
or by people who post tailored lists claiming that they can beat Leafblower (while getting owned by everything else, especially fzorgle)

My Black Legion friend did the same thing with his CSM - they are now chaos space wolves, with some converted models and everything.

He's able to build a character that has wargear that does what he wants it to do, and gave him fun conversion and design opportunities. Daemon Princes now can't even take 2x ccw! No customization, no flavor. People take daemon princes because that's the best option in the list.

SW is CSM 4.5 because they've given back nearly everything we lost. Unique psychic defense [cancel on 4+ instead of the ld test - chaos used to reduce enemy ld], customizable characters that are beasts in cc. Unit buffs (wolf banner), veteran skills (counterattack, acute senses), customizable unit (wolf guard).

CSM just have units that suck horribly. Possessed CAN be useful but they're so random that you're never sure if they WILL be. If they even rolled for their ability before deployment that would be a godsend, because you could plan around it. Now you deploy them in their rhino only to find they get scout, and COULD have outflanked. And Chaos Spawn? What were they thinking? With how combat resolution works, and having NO save whatsoever, they're just horrible. A dreadnought can charge and do 2 wounds, killing 2. From instant death, 2 more will die as the unit takes SIX more wounds. That'd be bad enough if they could form units of 10, but they come 3 to a unit. So actually EACH unit in the combat takes 6 wounds, meaning you can nearly wipe out any number of chaos spawn units just by rolling 2 2's to wound.

"Well don't send them against a dreadnought". They're uncontrollable! If the dread is closer, they'll charge right at it, unable to hurt it at all.

The truly chaotic elements of the codex are the ones that are the worst. Chosen don't reflect their elite status at ALL, being +1 ld CSM that can infiltrate, and pay too much for weapon options. Daemons are flavorless, boring, and while they can give you more S4 attacks, I sure wish they were rending, power weapons, or poisoned instead. Greater Daemons are the same - no fluff or flavor, and instead are just a statline on paper. You want them for when you want a S6 T6 THING to go kill the enemy. It's not a tervigon that you want buffing your units, or a Mawloc that you want burrowing out of harm's way, or even a particularly strong beatstick that you want to instant-kill enemy characters - it's not cool enough to do anything remotely like any of those things, it's just generic S6 T6 hit smack beat.

Cultists are gone, as are mutants. The cheap screen of worshipers that the CSM are notorious for exploiting and abusing in their fluff are gone.


The codex is more 2nd tier now because the only reliable units are the generic ones, and when you compare generic to generic from the new codexes, you find CSM's versions are underpowered and overcosted - and it's doubly unfortunate that they're both at the same time!

So that's what the comparison is really about. Sure you can bring in 1ksons, plaguemarines, obliterators - and in SOME cases you'd find those units work SLIGHTLY better. But the armies you're facing aren't always willing to fit into the molds you want them to for the perfect comparison, so we compare instead what we're more likely to see in actual lists. And when you do that, CSM don't come out on top.

+1 to sourclams, spellbound and the OP.

I sadly have to agree to most of the points made from this side. Well, I may be biased as I disliked the current codex:CSM right from the start and have changed my army composition to codex:Space Puppies while using my old models, but then again this is not so much because I like the overall structure and customizability of the latter better (which I admittedly do), but because I do fail to see the alternative builds in codes:CSM.

As has already been stated in a variety of ways, one can't do the mirror match with units originating from codex:SM since most (wait, all!) choices which are present in multiple codici:XXX-Marines are either overpriced in codex:CSM, suffer from the lack of effective upgrades (note: Overpriced icons that fail to give their respective bonuses to the unit once their bearer is dead do count as that) and/or USRs, or plain both. I feel that there is a certain consensus regarding this specific matter.

What I do not get is to which specific (and effective!) unit type(s) or synergy those people. which are stating that codex:CSM is not meant to be played as a pure SM list are defaulting to when choosing an army list. I only get the imression that more and more units are mentioned that are unique in that they are only incorporated into the codex:CSM but which bring . Units which were in part, btw, dismissed as utter crap the day the codex was released (possessed, Cybots, spawn).

I don't want to go into detail, but I for one pretty much fail to see where those units that are unique to Chaos complement the generic (but overcosted) SM part of the list to an extend where it is possible to choose a force that is in itself consistent in terms of playing to a specific game mechanic or theme and that is more efficient in doing so than a comparable list drawn from another marine codex.

There have to be some, at least one of the aforementioned lists that really can get toe to toe with those proclaimed lists that constitute a 'tier 1'. If there are not, then clearly codex:CSM is no longer tier one (if it ever was to begin with) book, as it won't suffice to say that one could take a comparable, but weaker CSM version of a given list and just use 'superior tactics', pray to the dice gods or LTP.

So, what has the codex to offer in addition to SM stuff? I am talking completely Chaos units plus units which differ noticeable from theyr SM brethren that they play very differently:

- Greater Deamon
- Lesser Deamons
- Spawn
- Defiler
- Dreads that kill their teammates (variation of basic dread)
- Oblits
- Lash (other powers negligible at least)
- Termicide (variation of basic terminators)
- Cult troops

Again, I fail to see the profit.
Greater daemons are a loss in a meta that heavily steers towards full (cheap) mech for everyone (no infantry to lock and hide in cc in) and in which everyone has to plan for taking out 6+ TMC with 6 wounds each.
Lesser daemons are basically cheap wounds w/o a save to bolster an assault. The thing is, they are not equipped to go well with the meta (no meltabombs ;-)) and even IF there were the big cc fests from 3rd edition with lots of infantry on the board to get to gripes with, 5th ed combat resolution means that they won't kill much thanks to no special weapons in cc, but give the enemy softer targets to gain a wound advantage on and thus swing a cc from lose to win for your enemy because you brougth MORE models... that's not exactly a 'pro' argument.
Same problem, even worse with my personaly entitled worst unit of 40k ever, the spawn.
Defiler, in and of itself really a fine unit. I don't want to argue the size of the model etc, but note that they present the only av 12 targets besides crazy 'naughts. So to repeat, in a meta where everyone has to tailor his list against IG av 12 spam for 55 points a pop, a dozen of that kind... it's nigh undoable to keep a defiler alive. The unit is fine, the army list around it is not. Simply no synergy units at all.
Dreads. Well, if they were reliably, they could pose a threat. If in addition we had mutated hull av 12 rhinos filled with cc goodness all around... I guess then there would be a case to go full mech. As it stands, the Defilers are first to go, threatening rhinos in turn 2, dreads when there is spare AT. Target priority the easy way.
Oblits. Again a fine unit. Compared to the imperial piefest maybe even overpriced today regarding their fire output, but at least useable. Suffers from the defiler-prob: A cool unit in the only really threatening long-range oriented FOC chart of the list where each lascannon hit more likely than not costs you 75 points... ugh.
Lash. Really worthwhile in 4th ed, but haven't seen a juice lashable target in month, really. Full mech all around. Could be worthwhile again with more infantry-oriented lists like SW or new Nids. Wait, they all have special psychic defense...
Termicide, clearly a unit build that doesn't play to the supposed strength of terminators (survivability and hth punch) which in itself shows that this style of unit build only exists to mitigate a glaring weakness in the chaos list as a whole: AT (or the delivery thereof).
Cult troops, last but not least, are the only 'unit type' I can think of that really is a worth its salt. I see a common consensus in that not all cult troops are equal, esp. thousand sons and noise marines are not exactly worth it. I for one would go so far as to generaly question the useablility of zerkers (mech meta, cost, lack of special ccw, need to charge combined with the slowest movement rate in the game and so on, ablility to die horribly to real horde units as soon as its either the charge condition is not met (likely) and/or the zerkers are reduced to less than max number via shooting or other ccs (very likely, even 8 zerkers start to look bad against a mob of 30 orks)) but I am at least willing to debate. And plague marines are hands down great.
Possessed. I forgot possessed. Oh, was this on purpose?

To sum up, I'd argue that there are many chaosy-units that are downright awful (spawn, possessed, dreadnaught, lesser daemons to a lesser (muhaha) extent). There are few units / unit build styles that are okay or even good as is but are either left standing alone in the open as priority targets w/o possibilities for target saturation or to enhance durability (AV12 Defilers, oblits with t4 and no available transports), are only viable because the list as a whole lacks so much in the category those units fill which in general leads to still way too few options to fill the role in question efficient (oblits again, termicide), fill a role that does not need to be filled (thousand sons, noise marines, defilers again to a lesser extend) or a combination of all three. There are even fewer units that are really great and an advantage to have compared to imperial marine codices, but simply can't win you the game alone if you are fighting with so many drawback in other parts of the list (plague marines, oblits over and over).

Moreover, the list lacks possiblilities in terms of unit deployment to counter certain builds (no pods, 1 single unit that may outflank and is not exactly uber at that, no characters to modify reserve rols or deployment that anybody else seems to have).
The list blatantly lacks psychic defenses.
The list greatly lacks special characters (not in number, that is, but in terms of support ablilities, army list varioations that come with a character or ANYTHING interesting, really. In practice we have only choppy characters, more choppy characters, uber choppy characters etc. The problem with this is that tere can be only one who is best at this profession, so you are basically stuck with abaddon for high point cost hqs, kharn for low cost choppyness, thats it. If one would erase all other named HQs from the already dull book that is codex:CSM there would hardly be any audience to notice).

All of the above combined leave me no choice but to rate the playability of the chaos dex as 2nd tier at best. Seriously, when the one and only LashOblits powerbuild fails, what else is there to draw on in the book?

Mind you, as a long-term (9 years) 40k player that has quite seen some editions/codices come and pass and who is not so arrogant as to call himself a really good player, though at least a mediocre one, it is my perception that there is no shame to loose to a master of the art. So there will always be room for the 'learn to play better tactics, you suck'-oppinion in this thread, but mind you that argument does not always count. It is okay for me to loose to a better player. But it does cost me nerves when I face an opponent who is clearly a worse player than I am und just pulls an internet IG air cav / piefest from his case and I know from turn one and even if I knew his list in advance and would tailor fit mine a certain degree to face him, no matter how hard I trie to block line of sigth, arrange multicharges, bend and twist the rules, I just won't stand a chance. Recently, with all the new dexes, the aforementioned situation arises way too often in my local gaming environment for me to not notice, so I switched to SW. Of course, when I build a generic list and play the same IG piefest over and over again, I still get my ass handed to me 95% of the time, but I at least have the strong feeling that the codex I am using could offer generic solutions to the problem at hand if only I wanted to invest in wolf scouts, lots of pods, 10+ razorbacks or the like and still perform okay against other lists which are not IG. With codex:CSM my conviction is I don't even have that option. Prove me wrong.


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You guys and poo pooing possessed, spawn, lessers, and dreads...
/sigh.
There is only one thing wrong with possessed, spawn, and lessers: Cost. Other than that, they function well enough. But I'm prob. the only one on this boat.

Whatever the case, there is an overall agreement and strong points of view; it was quite an eye opener. I guess I'm more of a: I'll take whatever I have and try to make it work..."...so pretty much a handicap.

Sanctjud wrote:You guys and poo pooing possessed, spawn, lessers, and dreads...
/sigh.
There is only one thing wrong with possessed, spawn, and lessers: Cost. Other than that, they function well enough. But I'm prob. the only one on this boat.

Whatever the case, there is an overall agreement and strong points of view; it was quite an eye opener. I guess I'm more of a: I'll take whatever I have and try to make it work..."...so pretty much a handicap.

Granted, I like dreads because I play by the real rules, but you are one of the people who brings down the level of tactical discourse in Dakka. Even if Spawn cost 5 points, it wouldn't change the fact that they pretty much kill themselves any time they assault something. As far as the cost of Possessed and Lesser Daemons goes, I'll give you a hint: if something costs too much, it means that when you purchase it you are weakening the rest of your army by the number of points that the unit is overcosted. This means it's dumb to take them.

Exactly. If there is one issue with a unit, and that issue is the point cost, then that translates to issues with efficiency, effectiveness relative to other units, and overall balance. If a unit "costs too much for its effect" then that is the very definition of a weak/bad unit!

How many selections would be more balanced if they simply cost fewer points? Basically every sub-optimal unit in every codex.

I'm sorry if I bring "down the level of tactical discourse in Dakka."

I try to work with units I have access in the CSM army and get the most out of them. Instead of always telling others to copy this list and run with it with Chaos, I'm telling players who are actually interested in the Chaotic choices that they are viable.

And they are in my experiences, and I've written much about them, but either they fall on deaf ears or just not what some are looking for.

Looking at a unit and making it work, dispite their pitfalls...I say it's just a different angle that maybe you are afraid of exploring...who knows.

I used to just 'follow the crowd' and poo poo the above units as well, but then I forced myself to use them and my opinions have changed.

I'll give you a hint:

No need to get snooty, I've been as polite as I can be. I'm sorry if your point is not sinking in that the Tactics board is only about how to rape my opponents' army.

if something costs too much, it means that when you purchase it you are weakening the rest of your army by the number of points that the unit is overcosted. This means it's dumb to take them.

So basically you are saying everything but Daemon Princes and 1/2 the cults are dumb...which would support the notion that the CSM are second tier...wait...it starts to sound more like 3rd tier if only 1 HQ choice (DP) and 2 types of troops (zerkers/plagues) are not considered overcosted.

I will respond when I have more time. I'm not convinced, (though surely that's no surprise this is the internet, we don't convince here), that CSM are not as good as SM/SW.

I think part of it is the move to mech. Chaos space marines are awesome troopers that deal well with other troopers. However, they're really expensive if you're sending them tank hunting. The other new codecies have multiple ways of getting cheap melta, the best part of Chaos lies in their basic troops.

It was alright in 4th because of the entangle rule. If a 10 man squad got out and shot down a rhino, the squad inside the rhino were entangled and couldn't retaliate. Next turn the chaos marines charge. In this edition, having 10 marines get out just to kill a rhino sucks.

So I would propose...give combi-meltas to every rhino. For a measly 10 points you get a melta weapon on a cheap transport AND increase the toughness of the rhino vs. glancing hits. That way, if you need to commit a melta weapon to popping a transport, your rhinos can do it. This way you don't need to commit a 10 man squad, 3 obliterators, or whatever else is expensive to doing the anti-tank role.

Another idea would be using the icons with deep striking termies with combi-meltas. I've used this strategy successfully before, and I don't see why it couldn't work now.

lash/oblits is played out. Since mech is directly countering that build, it's time to play accordingly.

sourclams wrote:AV12 Monster Mash? Marines, and soon BA, although Chaos will come in a close 3rd

This is the only thing I disagree with. Chaos can do a Monster Mash much better than anyone. They get 3x Dreads as elites, 3x Defilers as heavies (which are fleet), and then 2x Flying Demon Princes, and a Greater Demon. The Lash of Submission works really well in this build because it allows you to help speed the fellaz into assault faster, and then the GD shows up in reserve. With a Rhino carting an Icon, he get get quite a bit of distance on his summoning turn.

Conversely, the Marine AV12 spam list is much slower, albeit has a few more weapons. I think you find that a dread spam marine list doesn't really give you anything that having razorbacks and combat squadded heavy weapons does, actually.

Actually you are probably more right than I am. Marine Dread bash is more a gunduel or countercharge type of list.

BA will certainly out-do Chaos, however. Mephiston floating around plus AV13 Furiosos with variable kit in greater quanitty than the Chaos list can put out and the option to pod in will one-up CSM.

sourclams wrote:Actually you are probably more right than I am. Marine Dread bash is more a gunduel or countercharge type of list.

BA will certainly out-do Chaos, however. Mephiston floating around plus AV13 Furiosos with variable kit in greater quanitty than the Chaos list can put out and the option to pod in will one-up CSM.

Yea, the Marine "dread bash" isn't really all that special. Now, Blood Angels will steal the crown for sure. They bring their own lashes for vehicles, which is the Chaos Dread Bash's problem. That and Mephiston is an MC that isnt' an MC.

It'll be interesting when some hindsight is brought to bear. Until then all these predictions about the Blood Angel Codex so much hot air. Remember how Vanguard were going to be 'raping face' until people actually found out about their cost? I think people are counting their chickens before they've hatched, as usual.

Edit: Oops, that "until" should have been "when".

Actually I don't think anybody was claiming that Vanguard would be raping face except the typical New Codex Alarmists. The focus was wholly on Sternguard and Thunder Terms, and Vanguard were largely ignored due to being completely outshown.

I have to agree with nurglitch. One of my good friends is going from space marines to blood angels, due to how crappy space marines are. And i dont hold it against him for switching. However, im sticking strong to my chaos marines and i bet i can go toe to toe with him.

Space Marines are not crappy. They're still capable of hugely powerful, if somewhat bland, mech lists.

If your friend isn't building effective lists, then codex hopping won't help him unless he happens to fall into something that suits his playstyle better.

Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

Thoughts on blood angels.

Mepheston has no Invo and lacks eternal warrior. That leaves him highly vulnerable to non toughness insta death such as wraith cannons, The Swarmlord, and Boneswords. Most Nid warriors with boneswords also have poison attacks. It also leaves him partially vulnerable to warptime +force weapons, but I say partially vulnerable because he has a psychic hood. Thunder hammer terminators will also smash his face, so he's really not that great against tyranids and regular codex marines. He can give chaos some problems, but his vulnerability to tryanids, eldar, and codex marines means he will have definite downsides in a tournament setting.

Flying Psychic Furioso dreadnaughts cost a minimum of 175 points, and can not be venerable. AV13 means little to melta guns.

An all Khorne army is not viable with the CSM codex, and has never been viable with the CSM codex. An army with nothing but Khorne Zerkers for troops has never worked because they lack melta guns, and are very weak against tanks. It's actually viable now if a Khorne player uses the BA codex as their assault squads can carry multiple melta pistols. Field 60 zerkers as BA assault squads dropping jump packs for a free rhino supported by non psychic blood tallon dreadnaughts plus sanguinary priests and it's everything a Khorne zerker list should have been.

mrwittwer wrote:Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

I'm not so sure that non-mech BA is going to be any better than non-mech marines. That will have to wait until the BA codex is released.

However, I would be really surprised if the BA's can be effective without mech.

In the end, I don't think folks need to stick their head in every oven that's been on broil for the last hour to see if it's hot.

In the hands of a skilled and experienced player, CSM can still give every army a true run for their money. I tend to run mech/infantry spam backed by two DP's and can honestly say I'm still about 50/50 W/L versus all the books.

BA's will bring us all down a notch though with all those subtle extras like beefier, cheaper heroes, unit upgrades, and wicked weapon options.

I have faith though because with all the cheese rolling out of the GW kitchen, our new book is sure to do more than turn some heads.

imweasel wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:Well, he doesnt like mech lists. And blood angels by far and away fits his play style better. Hence why he is switching.

A good note to live by sourclams, if you dont know the situation, insults are not the best thing to start out with.

I'm not so sure that non-mech BA is going to be any better than non-mech marines. That will have to wait until the BA codex is released.

However, I would be really surprised if the BA's can be effective without mech.

In the end, I don't think folks need to stick their head in every oven that's been on broil for the last hour to see if it's hot.

He doesnt like mech lists. Not to say he doesnt use mech, as that is just silly. Rhinos are entirely needed in any Space Marine, Chaos Space Marine, or any flavor of marine book imo.

Blood Angels are going to be far more CC orientated than C:SM is. Thats why he wants to switch. And he has been playing with C:SM since he was in 6th grade and could use some change

But as to the question will Blood Angels give Chaos a run for their money, yes. But thats how all books should be.

schadenfreude wrote:Flying Psychic Furioso dreadnaughts cost a minimum of 175 points, and can not be venerable. AV13 means little to melta guns.

An all Khorne army is not viable with the CSM codex, and has never been viable with the CSM codex. An army with nothing but Khorne Zerkers for troops has never worked because they lack melta guns, and are very weak against tanks. It's actually viable now if a Khorne player uses the BA codex as their assault squads can carry multiple melta pistols. Field 60 zerkers as BA assault squads dropping jump packs for a free rhino supported by non psychic blood tallon dreadnaughts plus sanguinary priests and it's everything a Khorne zerker list should have been.

Mephiston + flying Psychic Furioso dreads will be a nightmare for anyone. Mephiston, having Toughness instead of AV, attacks different targets then the dreads. Also, while Mephiston is vulnerable to shooting, it will still take multiple shots to defeat him, and he will most likely always have cover. In CC, correct he is much more vulnerable, but he should be there to break your big boys out of tough spots.

175 Points for an AV13, 2x CCW, Flying Dread? Yes please. Defilers are 150, only AV12, and are WS3, BS3, and is comparable movement-wise because of fleet. I'd say the furioso is still a damn good buy, especially since I'm sure there will be lots of 100 or so point multi-melta or assault cannon dreads backing your army up too. Blood Angel dread bash sounds really interesting.

As for counts as Chaos, I couldn't be happier right now. Space Wolves (when I want to use my Thunder Blood Crusher Wolves), Blood Angels when I want to run interesting infantry, and Chaos when I want to have Demon Princes and Greater Demons, all with the same models. Bonus!

They may have lost some of their punch but CSM troop choices are still amazing. I think something that has been overlooked is the fact that their LR is only 220 points, 30 points cheaper than Vanilla Marines and 10 Khorne Berzerkers charging out of those bad boys are pretty scary.

whitedragon wrote:Mephiston + flying Psychic Furioso dreads will be a nightmare for anyone. Mephiston, having Toughness instead of AV, attacks different targets then the dreads. Also, while Mephiston is vulnerable to shooting, it will still take multiple shots to defeat him, and he will most likely always have cover. In CC, correct he is much more vulnerable, but he should be there to break your big boys out of tough spots.

What if they bring psychic defense? Mephiston's in the lurch if he charges a Dread and fails his Psychic test for strength 10, and all those Dreads aren't going to be so scary if they end up walking instead of flying-- then they're just Ironclads without hunter-killer missiles or drop pods!

whitedragon wrote:175 Points for an AV13, 2x CCW, Flying Dread? Yes please. Defilers are 150, only AV12, and are WS3, BS3, and is comparable movement-wise because of fleet.

And Defilers are terrible. Librarian Dreadnoughts are probably better, but better isn't necessarily the same as good.

jaweyermuller wrote:I think something that has been overlooked is the fact that their LR is only 220 points, 30 points cheaper than Vanilla Marines and 10 Khorne Berzerkers charging out of those bad boys are pretty scary.

I don't think it has been overlooked at all. Those 30 points are well worth it, and I think most chaos players would love to be able to pay 30 points to have a machine spirit, and the ability to carry 2 extra men... Might mean those berserkers piling out could charge a squad that fell out of a rhino that your lascannon destroyed, rather than charging the rhino... Let alone the ability to carry a pintle multi-melta, or a one of the variant LRs.

In the battle between loyalist LR and chaos LR, loyalists win every time. They can move 12" and shoot a MM at the chaos land raider. The Chaos version, while marginally cheaper, can either move slowly and shoot a lascannon, or move up, and waste those lascannons.

I'm pleased to see that the discussion has moved to real Chaos units at last. Previously the debate comparing basic CSM to Grey Hunters was like looking at the Ogre Kingdoms book and complaining that Goblins and Skaven Slaves were better than your Noblars. Nobody cares.

That said, here's some points in CSM's favor. I don't think there's much dispute about any of these.

Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Chaos Rhinos are better than ordinary rhinos. Combi-bolter is superior to storm bolter for a transport, and on top of that the ability to get a combi melta for the vehicle is something SM's would kill for. Bigger point than folks normally consider.

Obliterators remain one of the best Heavy Support choices in the game. They can deep strike, they have Terminator armor, they have the right weapon for every situation, and a template to synergize with Lash. They even have power fists if the enemy gets close to fight, and they are also fearless to boot. Now, I'll concede that Long Fangs are better at tank busting for their points, which is the majority of what the Oblits get up to, but the Oblits situational value (deep striking Ironclad? Twin linked Meltas! Lashed Snikrot? Twin linked flamers!) goes a long way to making up for it.

Chaos Terminators are superior to loyalist terminators. Most loyalists are just TH/SS terminators, while the Chaos Terminators can shoot preposterously hard once per game and still fight just fine (MoT and a chainfist or two is a passable loyalist impression without losing the majority's init) Only real drawback is the lack of ASTKNF, but that doesn't come up for Terminators as often as for other units, and ld 10 helps mitigate the issue.

Defiler vs. Ironclad is an interesting question. The ironclad has extra armor, the defiler is a daemon, the Ironclad is superior in CC, the Defiler has Fleet. I'd give it to the Ironclad, but Space Wolves don't really have a walker that can compete with the Ironclad, and every once in a while the battlecannon is awesome. (Between fleet and battlecannon the Defiler synergizes really well with Lash. In a game vs. a foe without psyker defenses I think the Defiler is dramatically superior to the clad).

If Lash isn't your thing CSM beats the other codexes hands down for fighting HQ's. Abaddon makes a mockery of anything in their books in a fight (on a 2+...), while Kharne is a bargain priced trash kicker. Even just a basic HQ has several ability's that the other dexes can't copy. Wings that let the user move as jump infantry without counting as it (so they can embark) aren't available anywhere else. Warptime, Daemon weapons...CSM HQ's can bring the pain. Heck, a Blissgiver Lord w/wings lurking somewhere in the rhino grid a serious problem for a lot of dexes.

40kenthusiast wrote:
Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

You're right about most of what you've said, but the environment has changed to one where getting Lash off is far from a given. When everyone is meched up and/or running psychic defenses, who are you lashing about? The seer council? Not often. Orks? Sure, if they're not in wagons, and even then, against a green tide list, even double-lashing every turn leads to a fighting retreat as you push them back and they keep pushing forwards. Marines (or their variants) - they're all in tanks. At the tournament I took my dual-lash list to last month, in one game, I got lash off and trashed some thunderwolves, because my opponent played poorly. If he'd pushed Njal up the field along with his wolves, probably not. Against my second opponent, it wasn't even necessary, and against my third, Eldrad's magic rocks shut it down, leaving my lashers out of position (having hoped to get one of them off) and then shot up.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Again, you're right in a vacuum, but the meta environment doesn't care. Zerkers might be scoring, but if they're also your hitters, they'll get ground down. Noise Marines might be able to outshoot sternguard, but once you put them in the position to shoot, they die as easily as other marines. In the current meta-environment, they're not better at doing what needs to be done. Tac marines are. Tac marines carry meltaguns. They ride around in rhinos. They leave half their guys behind with a missile launcher and an objective, and shoot at your transports.

Once marines are out of their rides, they all die easily enough (except, perhaps, plague marines). Do you want to trade your zerkers for your opponent's rhino, because that's what they'll be charging most of the time.

I'll grant you obliterators still rock. Against opponents who largely aren't running lascannons, obliterators hang around a long time and do whatever the situation dictates.

In a game vs. a foe without psyker defenses I think the Defiler is dramatically superior to the clad).

Which is who, exactly? Assuming we can count a transport as psychic defense, because we know what power you're using, who isn't running psychic defenses? Daemons and Nids, maybe orks... Most opponents have some sort of psychic defense.

Maybe it's because of how potent Lash can be (and how brutal things like bloodcrushers are against non-mech armies) that the metagame has shifted, but it has, and the key now is being able to handle mech, not handle men. Cult marines don't do that as well (or as cheaply) as normal marines.

@40kenthusiast:

Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game

Lash has been around, and well...it's old news.
Mech coupled with MSU leanings = not a game winner.
In addition, it's highly dependant on delivery with respect to survivability.

Cult Troops

But that expensive side is understated by you. Grey Hunters are essentially cult troops with respect to their additional rules and weapon load outs. Tac Marines are pretty much the only thing you can say is worse off.

Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard,

So…? They are entirely different units. Vangaurd get to the action easier and (BA) accurately

Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting,

Sternguard bring heavy weapons or combi-weapons, get pods to get to shoot best.
Sternguard trump NM with respect to by passing Armor 4/wounding anything well/cover saved units.

Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads.

Except when stormshields are involved with stuff that bypasses FNP.

Fearless is a double edged sword, ATSKNF coupled with Combat Tactics makes for more risk/reward mechanic. While all of the Cults are scoring, it doesn’t matter a whole lot if you know what you are doing with your army…(ie you only need one more than the opponent to win, so spamming troops is a risk averse issue at the very least).

Chaos Rhinos are better than ordinary rhinos

/shrug, you focus on the combi-weapon option, which isn’t something that everyone takes, esp. on rides that are assumed to die…in addition, with a paid for ranged weapon, there are plenty of other things the rhino does already, shooting IMO just makes it more vulnerable.
Don’t forget Razorbacks and drop pods… them trump rhinos in other cases.

Oblits

I love them too, but I wouldn’t call them the best Heavy Support. One pays for their versatility, but that’s just it, they are versatile, they are not that durable and the fist comment is moot.

Chaos Termies

That’s the problem with them, they are just a combi-weapon delivery system.
TH/SS live well enough to dish it out, there are much force multipliers available to the Marine players, it’s not just Chaos and their Lash…again you are understating the advantages the loyalists have ATSKNF is that good and the option for stubborn is not shabby as well.
Ld 10 is not enough, this you are overestimating.

Defiler vs. Ironclad

Stupid Comparison IMO.

Abaddon

Abby is a joke. No force multipliers for a combat only model that can go stupid.

Kharn

He’s good, but he does not carry the whole army…and the inv. save is laughable for an instant killable IC.

warptime

It’s nice, and keeps to the theme of offensive powers, but the scale in power is different. Chaos powers are more focus while the SM powers are toolbox/utility powers…the more they affect the ‘better’ they are, while WT does have its issues.

You need to put it up at the start, so there’s the possibility you are out of combat and wasted it.

Daemon weapons

Is a risk/reward system, with pros and cons, to say it makes Chaos stronger/better is not accurate as as much as it can help, it can hinder.

Blissgiver

Bliss has always been ‘meh’.
Most uber characters worth instant killing are immune or buried in a burly squad or great invs.
Though the Blissgiver has high intitiative, it’s stuck at str 4 which really sucks.
The new nids that aren’t all immune to instant death breathed new life into the blissgiver, but in most cases you must roll a 6 to wound…which then makes it just a luck weapon rather than something reliable and competitive.

CSM are good, but if you pit two equally skilled players with a ‘Ard CSM list and a ‘Ard list from the new SW or BA, to a lesser extent to Vanilla SM, it will be the CSM that fall short…at the very least it’s because they’ve been out longer than the rest and it’s not a surprise of how to deal with them as there really isn’t that much variety when it comes with chaos.

CSM have less force multipliers and work best if they can engage the opponent who has not set up overlapping fields of support…makes sense. Otherwise, the force multipliers of these newer armies work wonders against an army list that is just painfully straightforward.

Redbeard wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:
Lash is still the psyker power with the single biggest impact on the game (aside from Weaken Resolve, and that's guard, who we aren't really comparing with here). You get a lash off, you usually win. You get two off, it's almost certain. From clumping troops up, to pulling them into a formation where they can't fight back when the Zerks charge, Lash Wins Games.

You're right about most of what you've said, but the environment has changed to one where getting Lash off is far from a given. When everyone is meched up and/or running psychic defenses, who are you lashing about? The seer council? Not often. Orks? Sure, if they're not in wagons, and even then, against a green tide list, even double-lashing every turn leads to a fighting retreat as you push them back and they keep pushing forwards. Marines (or their variants) - they're all in tanks. At the tournament I took my dual-lash list to last month, in one game, I got lash off and trashed some thunderwolves, because my opponent played poorly. If he'd pushed Njal up the field along with his wolves, probably not. Against my second opponent, it wasn't even necessary, and against my third, Eldrad's magic rocks shut it down, leaving my lashers out of position (having hoped to get one of them off) and then shot up.

Cult Troops, while more expensive, are also better than Grey Hunters, or Tac Marines. They are even better than the elite variants, so long as rough point equality is maintained. Zerkers hit harder than Vanguard, Ksons/Noise Marines outshoot Sternguard at anything other than monster busting, Plague Marines are more enduring than Command Squads. Plus the Chaos guys are all troops, and hence score. (without needing Pedro), plus they are fearless. It isn't even close to equal.

Again, you're right in a vacuum, but the meta environment doesn't care. Zerkers might be scoring, but if they're also your hitters, they'll get ground down. Noise Marines might be able to outshoot sternguard, but once you put them in the position to shoot, they die as easily as other marines. In the current meta-environment, they're not better at doing what needs to be done. Tac marines are. Tac marines carry meltaguns. They ride around in rhinos. They leave half their guys behind with a missile launcher and an objective, and shoot at your transports.

Once marines are out of their rides, they all die easily enough (except, perhaps, plague marines). Do you want to trade your zerkers for your opponent's rhino, because that's what they'll be charging most of the time.

I'll grant you obliterators still rock. Against opponents who largely aren't running lascannons, obliterators hang around a long time and do whatever the situation dictates.

There are a few errors in your reasoning here.

40kenthusiast describes his situation in a vaccum as this describes the strength of a unit without external factors. Which is a good way of looking at things to gain a basic knowledge of what the units strength is. Then you, redbeard, remind that games do not work in a vaccuum and how Chaos deals with the external factors is what gives them strength. This is also good to judge what actually works, as opposed to what looks like it should work. My gripe is you judge things only in your specific scenarios which are made to prove your point. The scenario needs to be broadened to cover the entire game to judge overall value of something.

Tac marines do carry a melta gun, plague marines carry two, and vanilla CSM carry two. A greater advantage by far vs tanks. Plague marines also synergize perfectly with plasma guns which is never mentioned in your comparison.

I have never charged a rhino with khorne bezerkers. And quite frankly im not sure why you are either. I leave the pooping of light armored units to heavy support. Their job IS to open up the cans so the bezerkers DO have something to charge at. Bezerkers are a one shot kill, they charge out and more times than not, kill what they are charging. After that, its your job to protect them, or watch them die. This is a known fact, but this is why target selection and transport popping is so needed. If the job of cracking rhinos is left to bezerkers then either your list or your playstyle is broken and dont expect to win much. But dont use that as an example to prove a point.

The same goes with lash, open the transport, lash what came out. Really quite the simple. Lash regarding eldar and shadow of the warp is a different story. For this i go back to, dont rely on lash to win games. I dont use lash and have never needed to. However, vs nids i dont find lash to be all that important of a power, and as long as you maneuver outside of its range, it shouldnt be that much of a problem. vs eldar there really isnt much that can be done. Keep your lash princes in cover and dont expose them for the chance to get one lash off, more than likely it isnt worth it.

I think most of chaos's short commings can be avoided with proper strategy and with Blood Angels coming out, we will just have to get a lil creative and maybe break the Oblit, Plaguemarine, Lash prince mold.

Vache Glace wrote:-I’ve found that Bezerkers are quite useless in todays metagame. Hitting on 3’s and wounding on 3’s is quite awful when you’re facing a giant horde of FNP tyranids or a giant mob of orks (cc against horde is supposed to be their specialty!!!). They’re also quite useless against vehicles, have low survivability, are slow, and need the charge to be even remotely effective.

I disagree here, zerkers are quite effective in their role. I have used them to mow through giant mobs of Orks. However I believe they really need a LR since in order to truly shine they need to be assaulting.

Vache Glace wrote:-Noise Marines suffer from a lot of the problems that TS have. They cost a lot to get their good weaponry and they are still slow. They’re somewhat interesting but I can’t see them even winning their points back.

I totally agree with this point, as what you get for the cost is utter nonsense. For the cost per model they should at least come with the sonic blasters as they truly aren't Noise Marines without them. The I5 you get over the regular CSMs is a throw away as I see this unit as being shooty more than cc. I really like the models and would love to field them but I just can't justify the cost.

mrwittwer wrote:
There are a few errors in your reasoning here.

40kenthusiast describes his situation in a vaccum as this describes the strength of a unit without external factors. Which is a good way of looking at things to gain a basic knowledge of what the units strength is. Then you, redbeard, remind that games do not work in a vaccuum and how Chaos deals with the external factors is what gives them strength. This is also good to judge what actually works, as opposed to what looks like it should work. My gripe is you judge things only in your specific scenarios which are made to prove your point. The scenario needs to be broadened to cover the entire game to judge overall value of something.

The scenarios I mention are those I have encountered at tournaments.

Tac marines do carry a melta gun, plague marines carry two, and vanilla CSM carry two. A greater advantage by far vs tanks. Plague marines also synergize perfectly with plasma guns which is never mentioned in your comparison.

Tac marines, the way I've seen them run locally, have a sgt w/ a combi-weapon that synergizes with the special in the squad.

I have never charged a rhino with khorne bezerkers. And quite frankly im not sure why you are either. I leave the pooping of light armored units to heavy support.

Well, I don't use loaded dice, so sometimes, the popping of the light transport by the heavy support unit doesn't happen, and in those cases, when the berserkers are in position to get a charge on a unit that would have been there, had the transport popped, they might as well charge the transport, rather than sitting around charging nothing.

Never? You've never failed to pop a transport in 5th edition. I find that hard to believe. I've been on both sides of vehicles that simply do not die. That get 1's and 2's on result tables.

I think most of chaos's short commings can be avoided with proper strategy...

Right right, the generic call for 'use better strategy'. I don't know where you play, or what sort of opponents you play against. My record at major tournaments is pretty good, and that's playing against other good players. I don't think it's strategy that is the problem...

Wait, can't you fill every FOC slot in the chaos codex with an autocannon?

What kind of list would that be if someone tried it....(probably a horrible one, but with RACs and ACs, you could generate more S7 AP4 hits than 45 lootas)

Edit: I'm just trying to say that chaos CAN pop light vehicles, this is an extreme example, but I think that the lack of long range firepower is not as extreme as you might think

Simply: It's not cost efficient.

Loading up on autocannons in "every slot" costs you mobility and serves to generally keep you at arms' length, which is not where close-range firefight and assault armies want to be.

RACs are simply horribly priced.

Lash-

Still not enough credit for Lash. If those Zerkers are in another book and they are standing outside of the vehicle and the shooting wrecks it the enemy gets away by disembarking > 6" out. CSM tries two lashes. Even if the enemy has psyker defense (the type doesn't matter too much, they are both basically 1/2 chance of blocking, whether by making the check fail or 4+ing or winning the dice off) they only have a 1/4 of blocking both tests, and if one gets off the unit is pulled into anti-CC formation (1-2 guys able to fight back) and obliterated by charging zerks.

The advice of "Mech Up" acts like, as Mr.Twitter says, the CSM can't demech enemies just fine.

And it may be "old news", but that doesn't make it stop working. Still the game's best psyker power. Still the best followup for a unit getting disembarked. Still makes a mockery of the nids whole codex. (12" defense vs. 24" range power = lose).

The idea that the holder is somehow fragile is provably wrong. It's a character in a cult squad. Offhand, what's more survivable? He's even I6 in case of Jaws. I guess you could turn him into a spawn/squig, if you can get him out of the vehicle, but that's about it.

Abaddon:

The idea that he's bad is simply incorrect. Abaddon in a squad means that that squad only has a chance of losing combat 1/6 of the time, or if it gets lashed. Just as an example, as long as you keep him back so the other player can't base to base with their Warboss the odds are he'll make a Plague Marine squad beat a Nob Biker unit that charges it.

Chaos Terminators: The "problem" with them is that they are a combi weapon delivery system? What? I wish all my units had that "problem". 5 points for a combi weapon is a bargain. Once it's gone they are still terminators. With MoT they only have a 1/6 worse invul save than the loyalists, without the always goes last bonus of the TH stuck in. The loyalists need the hammers to bust vehicles. The CSM accomplish the same with a couple of chainfists and combi meltas, and have enough slots left over to get up to anything else they need to. Stubborn and ASTKNF rarely matter for Terminators. If they are losing, they are usually going to be gone.

Also, Lash is a better "synergy" than fleet or anything else in the SM book.

Warptime: You "wasted" it? You can't run out! You might have taken a wound on your caster, if the enemy didn't assault a unit you were thinking they would. It's rarely a problem.

If you go straight to meta, CSM dominate Orks with Lash, SW and SM have a tough game vs. them.

I don't think that it's at all a pat conclusion that a SW list will beat a CSM list, given equally skilled players. That's totally unsupported. CSM has won it's share of tourneys, is played by it's share of skilled players. It's totally a contender in the MEQ world.

Intense hatred for Lash/Plague Marines/Zerkers/Oblits doesn't mean that they've stopped working.

I agree with 40Ke here. CSM is still quite powerful. Abbey is no joke and lash is still effective. Redbeard if you got just one lash off against me (which was statistically more likely than what happened) you kill all the Warp Spiders and probably win that game.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

Chaos is just fine. It's not the shiny new toy of the month, but it's the Gran Turino of cars. Still top of the line and classic.

Well, I don't use loaded dice, so sometimes, the popping of the light transport by the heavy support unit doesn't happen, and in those cases, when the berserkers are in position to get a charge on a unit that would have been there, had the transport popped, they might as well charge the transport, rather than sitting around charging nothing.

Never? You've never failed to pop a transport in 5th edition. I find that hard to believe. I've been on both sides of vehicles that simply do not die. That get 1's and 2's on result tables.

First of all, i wasnt insulting you, so please dont insult me. I simply wished to point out how things can be different and if you take offense to that, i am sorry.

And of course i have failed to pop a transport, quite often in fact, thats just how it goes. But that doesnt mean i charge anyways. Just because there is a plan in motion doesnt mean it has to be done. I simply reposition for a better target or take the next best course of action depending on the game. If option A doesnt work then switch to option B. Charging a squad of zerkers into a rhino is a horrible idea. The stuff will get out, shoot and charge. By that point bezerkers are done. Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense. This is what i mean by strategy, keep a plan in mind of what to do if the first plan doesnt work.

Er, you have to be in position to assault before you know whether or not your shooting will disembark the target unit successfully. It's more like deciding to eat an apple and finding out if it's rotten or not after the first bite. You need to commit the squad before you find out if that's beneficial or not.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

Now we're just spinning into a strange place where we refuse to acknowledge that top of the line competitive lists exist. 6+ Chimera lists do exist, are played regularly, and actually won Ard Boyz last year. I personally have won back to back tournaments with mech IG in my region.

DarthDiggler wrote:I agree with 40Ke here. CSM is still quite powerful. Abbey is no joke and lash is still effective. Redbeard if you got just one lash off against me (which was statistically more likely than what happened) you kill all the Warp Spiders and probably win that game.

For all the talk about IG armies with 6+ chimeras ... I don't see it. This must be a theory hammer army list. In 7-8 40k tournament series events at the Chicago Battle Bunker no IG army has ever won. The players from this tournament include multiple top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz, multiple Adepticon Gladiater, championships and team tournament winners. All these people have played in the tourneys and not a single Ig army has won. Something is up with that list and I'm not sure what it is.

I honestly think that's what's up with the guard army, in the Chicago area, is that none of the 'good' players have adopted it / have it painted and ready to go, in an optimal layout. I played against at least three different guard armies during the course of the event, and none of them were what is generally considered good. No manticores, I think I saw one vendetta, total, no hydras... And I bet some of that has to do with painting. Guard is an intensive army to prepare. The people who ran guard weren't running optimal lists, and weren't among those people who have got the multiple event finishes. Several of them were running the guard models they had from the old codex, stretching upgrades just to make the new point structure.

And if the metric to judge the army by is did it win, did Chaos Marines win one? (I honestly don't know). I know that Dark Eldar, Eldar and Orks won a few. I think a CSM list got best general one game (Tim Schmidt's), but then so did a mech guard army (Aaron, playing Brian Carlson's guard).

mrwittwer wrote:
First of all, i wasnt insulting you, so please dont insult me. I simply wished to point out how things can be different and if you take offense to that, i am sorry.

I wasn't insulting you either.

And of course i have failed to pop a transport, quite often in fact, thats just how it goes. But that doesnt mean i charge anyways. Just because there is a plan in motion doesnt mean it has to be done. I simply reposition for a better target or take the next best course of action depending on the game. If option A doesnt work then switch to option B. Charging a squad of zerkers into a rhino is a horrible idea. The stuff will get out, shoot and charge. By that point bezerkers are done. Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense. This is what i mean by strategy, keep a plan in mind of what to do if the first plan doesnt work.

Okay, so, given the choice between having a squad of berserkers (ready to charge a unit that didn't lose its rhino in the shooting phase) sit there doing nothing, or having them charge said rhino, you'd rather have them sit there doing nothing.

This does nothing to the survival chances of the berserkers. If they were in a position to charge the troops in case the rhino popped, then the unit inside the rhino is in position to hit them whether they charge the rhino or not. You had to get the berserkers in position before your heavy support shot at the transport (and failed to hurt it). Clearly you change plans - but your new plan is to sit around and not charge, and not gain any extra distance, and not get any extra chance to hurt anything, while still remaining just as vulnerable as you'd be if you had charged? And you're lecturing on strategy?

Again, I don't mean to insult you, but the idea that you don't assault the rhino in this situation is ridiculous. You're out there, ready to charge something. The only thing to charge is the rhino. You're going to get shot and/or charged regardless.

Thats like if i was going to eat an apple, but i saw it was rotten, but i decided to eat it anyways because i had planned to eat it. Just doesnt make sense.

Well...depends on the point of view...I (being a Nurgle player) approve of following the plan of eating a rotten apple.

But what other plan is there when you have failed to wreck the trasnports and the Zerkers have set up to charge the exitting contents?

Run to cover...and still let the opponent shoot them... not ideal, but prob. better than charge in kill the tank and then get killed in return...but wait, if it's KP, it's better to be even then down by 1.

/shrug...there's really no way around it I guess...when the simple plan fails...it's pretty terminal.

sourclams wrote:Er, you have to be in position to assault before you know whether or not your shooting will disembark the target unit successfully. It's more like deciding to eat an apple and finding out if it's rotten or not after the first bite. You need to commit the squad before you find out if that's beneficial or not.

Well Bezerkers in a landraider have a mimimum 18" assault range. 20" if you count the 2" from getting out of the vehicle. Rhinos have 12" or 14". That leaves me plenty of room to decide where i want to go in either case. And bezerkers most certainly should not be footsloging. While i understand your point, i dont believe you need to fully commit the squad to assault. There is always another option that in most cases is better than assaulting a rhino. If that means pulling back and repositioning or whatever the scenario calls for. It has never happened for me that my 250 point bezerker squad needed to charge a 35 point rhino.

EDIT:

I get what you are now saying redbeard. That you hope to do this all in one turn. Move and get out in movement. Pop transport in shooting. Assault in assault. I should have explained earlier thats not what i usually do. And if i am going to do something like that i only use a melta gun. With ap1 the worst i can roll is a stunned for the more than likely penetrating hit. Or if i am going to do something risky like this, i make sure the target is worth the work of pouring all the needed firepower into it. Whether that be 3 lascannons from oblits and melta guns or whatever it needed.

Since i know zerkers are a one trick pony, i make sure they are assaulting something that is already out of their vehicles. This way if the turn before i dont pop the transports needed, different action is taken with minimum casualties to myself.

Different playstyles we have.

I don't get this thread. Chaos is no where near a second tier army. The latest UK GT results are in and if I recall exactly top two were both CSM Lash lists. I think 5th was a Korne Chaos list. So in no way is CSM second Tier, it's actually one of the stronger armies out there.

@40Ke:

Lash:

Many place them on Princes…those by now are universally known and known how to put down.
As for the Sorc in a cult, I can’t assume that he would be. If you want to make that the point. Lash is good, but it’s been around and people will have experience vs. it. You neglected to address the MSU issue…so you get to lash a small unit and kill it, now you are in range to be shot at. Or you lashed something to shoot at with oblits, but you are not charging in.
You did this from a rhino? That moved only 6” that’s not stunned or shaken?

The advice of "Mech Up" acts like, as Mr.Twitter says, the CSM can't demech enemies just fine.

IMO CSM can NOT demech that quickly, as I assume you are of the opposite thinking. The majority of the AT is short ranged, you need to get there and if the opponent is not interested in approaching you, that’s 2-3 turns to get there, which is 2-3 turns for the opponent to react/gun your guys down.

As for the ranges of nids pychic defense, they get pods for a reason, or Trygon Primes coming out of the ground and such.

Abaddon:

Abaddon is full of fail because he is so costly and has no real good delivery system other than more points.
He’s essentially a basket of eggs.

As for nob bikers, are you using Abby as sort of a counter charge unit, as nob bikers have their own delivery system to either get around abby or go else where and wreck something else.

Chaos Terminators

The problem with termies is that they are ONLY combi-weapon delivery systems.

ICON of Tzeentch is what they can purchase, and that’s just not economical for a Termicide unit to go for an icon.

Stubborn and ATSKNF matters should the termies but used for other roles besides termiciding, which some people do, which IMO includes squads that use any other equipment besides just combi-weapons.

Warptime:

You might have taken a wound on your caster

That was what I meant.

Intense hatred for Lash/Plague Marines/Zerkers/Oblits doesn't mean that they've stopped working

I know it’s not directed at me, but I would just like to say I don’t hate it, it’s just something to expect and is not suprising any more.
Meched up and MSU serve to limit its usefulness as well as up the kill ability of said army against a lasher…it’s just really lackluster these days.

The Chaos Codex is more than viable.

They have arguably the best troops in the entire game, and guess what? If a psychic power changes the worldwide metagame that means it's good.

Berzerkers are amazing, and so are Plague Marines. They're not an "instant win" army anymore, but to say that they aren't competitive is just plain misguided.

@sanc:

Lash: Many don't take them at all, in fact. Folks doing it wrong doesn't stop other folks from doing it right. Sorcerers with wings in vehicles have been the right way to do it for some time now. If the vehicle is shaken they can get out, if the lash is critical, alternatively just he can get out alone, and fly 12" if he needs to (say to get out of a counter-psyker bubble.)

MSU: MSU is self limiting, it loses at KP (1/3 of the time), and it's advantages in multi-objective missions are offset by the inability of it's units to defeat the death stars. In addition, Lash is useful for mitigating MSU issues. Drag another unit over to the one you are about to charge and double kill.

Demech: In your opinion CSM can not demech quickly? Do you have a house rule against using obliterators, combi-meltas on rhinos, termicide units? I literally don't know what you could be thinking of.

Abaddon is...huh? Abaddon is an IC. He gets "delivered" in squads. He can ride in a land raider, teleport in with a termicide unit, or just run up the field with some plague marines. Anything that assaults the CSM army gets counterassaulted by Abaddon.

Terminators: It's perfectly economical to give Terminators an Icon. In fact, most everyone does. Even if you....

This is just silly back and forth now. How about I back my argument up.

Just today the #1 and #2 at the UK GT were Twin Lash CSM. We done here? CSM are top tier, you can tell because they win the big tournaments, which is the definition of a top tier list.

EDIT: @monster: Right on!

Lash:
Unless the lash is critical, getting out means exposure to death, going out alone is almost certain death.

MSU:
Kill points is not a huge issue. By MSU = more damage it works out in the end. This is competitive MSU, not stupid MSU that Tau inherently get with their Devilfish Discs of Death .

DeMech:
Oblits are not cost effective options for AT work and need to approach to be better at it.
Combi-melta rhinos first: have to be taken, and have to get there.
Termicides have to wait til turn 2 to get in, and with the 6" range to get best results are (as said) risk reward.

All of this means low range AT and later game AT. Which is great and all, but just doesn't have any useful until turn 3+...which is where Chaos Shines, but is cutting it close to being too little too late.

Abby:
LR: cost more points on top of his points.
Teleport: that's at least 2 turns not in combat or chancing to come in too late or too early.
Running: turn 3 more likely 4 he'll actually put his points to use.

Abby + LR ~ 500.
Abby + PM slogging ~ 500.
Abby + DS is the most economical, but again, risk/reward with risks being more of a factor.

Termies:
How many termies... termicides (as I think we were on them) are 3-4...their name suggests keeping costs low.

UKGT:
Can't wait to see the bat reps should they come out. Though to be frank, I'm not arguing that they are second tier, I'm just noting that it's not all Rainbows and Lolipops...

Redbeard wrote:

And if the metric to judge the army by is did it win, did Chaos Marines win one? (I honestly don't know). I know that Dark Eldar, Eldar and Orks won a few. I think a CSM list got best general one game (Tim Schmidt's), but then so did a mech guard army (Aaron, playing Brian Carlson's guard).

You have a good point about the guard armies. I won best General with CSM, mostly Berzerkers, the first month. Of course I finished 2nd to last a few months later with the same list, but much more inebriated. You may be right though. IMO we had close to the same people finishing near the top each month with whatever army they brought. Though Tyler was always near the top tables in round 3 and he brought Chaso more often then not I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abbey + LR is just mash. Whole armies must be adjusted to take him under consideration. He might be the ultimate deathstar killer. A few units can slow him down here and there, but for the most part he's worth the points. That LR that's moving him is also moving 8 other guys who can deal damage by themselves. Abbey + 8 Berzerkers is like having 2 guided missiles in one transport. Of all the armies out there, Orks have the toughest time against that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/284231.page


Someone posted about these results, but Chaos took 1st, 2nd and 6th in the UK GT finals. I'm sure there are some obvious variables here that many of us can't quite account for, but one noteworthy point is that these games are only 1500 points. How much, if any, impact does this point value have on armies being played?

Chaos actually has a lot of problems scaling to the lower levels. It's hard to fit in all the tools you need to be effective against all list types in 1500 points.

If, however, you have nothing but melta Marines in rhinos and face predominantly quasi foot lists without significant mech assets, unable to stop you from charging across the table into hand to hand, it can certainly put out a beatdown.

I'd be more interested in what the 3rd, 4th, and 5th place lists were than what the Chaos players fielded.

at 1500, "Mech" isn't as spammy as it can be in 2K point games. In a 2K list you can have as many as 9 tanks, or more. And most of them are transports. At 1500 however, you can only really have 3-4 transports. A squad of oblits can easily break two-three tanks per turn, and at 1500 that's all you need. Then the lash casters can lash assault squads away, and lash shooty troops closer.

sourclams, why didn't you read the first post of the thread to which Sarigar linked?

Blackmoor wrote:This weekend they had the 40k Throne of Skulls GT finals.

For those of you that don’t know, UK GW's GT is 6 games at 1500 points, and you play in 3 “heats” in the fall to qualify for the finals that was held last weekend. There is no comp, no sports and no painting scores so it is battle points with victory points as the tie-breaker.

The results for the top 10 are:
1:Chaos: 2 lash 6 oblit raider army.
2: Chaos: 2 lash 9 oblit army.
3: Space wolves, With 3 rune priests, 2 Squads of long fangs, 4 units of tooled up grey hunters.
4: Space Marines
5: Necrons: Lord on destroyer, 6 wraiths, monolith, 5 destroyers, 7 immortals, some warriors.
6: Chaos: Khorne daemon prince, 2 raiders, 2 rhinos, 3 units of zerkers + Khorne terminators
7: Chaos Daemons: Fate Crusher
8: Orks
9: Orks
10: Eldar

They had a lot better spread of armies that they have had in the past, Lash Chaos is still a very good combo no matter how people say that Mech stop it (the oblits and just blast you out of your tanks).

The tyranid codex is still new, and there were only 2 tyranid players there that finished in the middle of the pack.

There were 2 surprises though. The first is that there was no IG in the top 10. Maybe it is not as good at 1500 points. The other surprise was that there was a necron player in the top 10, which goes to show you that every codex has a list that can win if you are good enough player.



Note:
Taken from this article:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=69412
Thanks to Tange for the results.

sourclams wrote:Chaos actually has a lot of problems scaling to the lower levels. It's hard to fit in all the tools you need to be effective against all list types in 1500 points.

This is not directed at Sourclams exclusively, but more as a general statement towards this type of thinking I see more and more of.

Why are we continueing to ignore reality? Is our big fish in a small pond syndrome really this advanced? Chaos won the top 2 spots at a 100+ person, 6 game tournament in which each player needed to advance from 2 other tournaments to even get into. I read through the 8 pages on the original site leading to the tournament and some of the guys who finished in the middle of the pack were fielding some of the internets finest spam machines.

At what point does the constant clatter on the internet about so called super lists finally die in the face of tabletop reality that those lists aren't all that? and some of the lists these internet people think are bunk, actually do work? Don't tell us about what you think should work, like Blackmoor, show us on the tabletop.

I think the hard reality is that the best 40k players can take most lists they are familiar with and do quite well. Eventually people will come to the realization that it is not the list, but the player. If foot eldar do well, it's because that player knows what he's doing, to many times some people are quick to judge the opponent as being bad when it is not the case. The guy they played against was just better.

Well said DarthDiggler. I see no further need for more debate on this topic and quite frankly its getting boring. Ok, Chaos may become less strong due to future codex releases but if playing with a competative build it will always remain competative.

They came 1st and second in the GT as pointed out by myself and others, what more do you want? lol.

Nuff said.

One would think so, but usually at this point in the conversation some bright fellow tries to dredge up something to try and mitigate the evidence staring them in the face.

Speaking of axes to grind, anyone else notice that the winning Chaos Space Marine army had fewer Obliterators? Eh? Eh?

Well, as beaten into pulp as it is, oblits are still good, just not the be all and end all.

Just that they are there says much. I use a max of 6 for other reasons besides competitivity...

I'd like to see a description of the list that is just "marines" but a friend of mine fielded a SW list that had 77 marines in it at 1500, with 3 units of ML long-fangs, and 2 runepriests, making me think that the SW list was not as efficient as it should be.

Is it even worth mentioning that entry to the UK GTs is also made possible by Best Paint and Sportsmanship scores?

Speaking of axes to grind, anyone else notice that the winning Chaos Space Marine army had fewer Obliterators? Eh? Eh?

The natural conclusion being that Oblits are necessary for a competitive Chaos list?

^ You win a pat on the back.
But I'm sure an Inquisitor like you would hate to be patted by a Plague Terminator like me...

How consistant is chaos on top.
This might say alot, but at the same time it might not say anything as the sample set is just one GT, or just 6 games. 6/6 is nice, but is just past a handful of games.

I think winning a 6-game event is more conclusive than a 3-game event. It's still a small sample, but considerably larger than most 3-4 game tourneys.

What I think detracts from the veracity of the results is that the guys who "made it" aren't just the top 3 generals from the previous heats, but also the Best Sportsmanship and Best Painted folks, too. It all goes back to GTs being hobby events, not tournaments.

IMO Chaos Marines is still top tier. The wins for the UK GT prove it. Where Chaos has issues is in the US Comp tournaments where dual lash or oblit spam will get you a terrible comp and make it difficult to win overall at a GT since you most likely need to win all your games and sometimes you just lose a game because of bad die rolls.

DarthDiggler gets a wholehearted salute from me. This sums up the way I feel completely. I believe that to a fairly large extent, skill trumps build. Sure, both may be important, but if your nice ass-hammer build gets suddenly faced down by a perfect counter-build, a player with no skill will undoubtedly be crushed mercilessly. However, a player with skill would be able to adapt and use his army as best as he can.

Er, the point to an all-comers army (the goal for "competitive" list builders) is that there *is* no perfect counter-build. No matter what you end up fighting, you have sufficient tools to deal, and skill more than list is the deciding factor.

Apparently the winning army wasn't Chaos at all, but was actually SM and accidentally listed as Chaos? Not sure what this means for this discussion, but I'll just put that out here.

If true, it means the last 10 posts just got a little hilarious.

I blame 'count as'.

Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Er, the point to an all-comers army (the goal for "competitive" list builders) is that there *is* no perfect counter-build. No matter what you end up fighting, you have sufficient tools to deal, and skill more than list is the deciding factor.

True, that's a damn good point. I'm glad that we do agree that skill is more important than list, though.

Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Slaanesh would be more than happy to accept the blame for that, rest assured.

Or did you mean the punctuation mark? My bad.

Ludovic wrote:Or it could be a missing colon. I blame Slaanesh.

Oh snap! I see what you did there. Or maybe I read too far into it. Either way, my wife asked me what I was chuckling about.

We need a Doomrider pic like...right now with 'Ziiiinnggg' written all over it.......

schadenfreude wrote:Thoughts on blood angels.

Mepheston has no Invo and lacks eternal warrior. That leaves him highly vulnerable to non toughness insta death such as wraith cannons, The Swarmlord, and Boneswords. Most Nid warriors with boneswords also have poison attacks. It also leaves him partially vulnerable to warptime +force weapons, but I say partially vulnerable because he has a psychic hood. Thunder hammer terminators will also smash his face, so he's really not that great against tyranids and regular codex marines. He can give chaos some problems, but his vulnerability to tryanids, eldar, and codex marines means he will have definite downsides in a tournament setting.

Partially vulnerable to warp time and force weapons?

Warp time + force weapon means it's a Tzeentch sorcerer. That means Mephiston is going first. Mephiston will be S10 with higher WS and 5 attacks. A single wound will kill the sorcerer. Now, assume Mephiston doesn't kill the sorcerer. He casts warp time, doesn't get it cancelled, and then with his 4 attacks, gets 2 hits. You're hoping that one of four dice [including rerolls] is a 6, which is far from a guarantee. THEN you're hoping that you can pass another test, and that it doesn't get canceled as well.

Instant death versus wraith cannons......right. I see those ALL the time.

Swarmlord... Did you really let the swarmlord get into combat?

Warriors....you realize Mephiston will always go first, be S10, and insta-kill them right? You hope you get the wound with those boneswords, because if you don't [or he just passes his Ld test, it's not impossible] you'll be losing combat by like 9-12.


This little mini-rant aside, I'm appalled how many people still sing the praises of obliterators. They're.....good? More reliable than a defiler? Ok fine. But their nerf down to S4 T4 while increasing cost just makes me gag when I take them. For their cost they need to be 3 wounds, T4(5), T5, Feel no pain, or preferably some combination of two of those.

Reducing points cost alone is NOT a fix to a lot of those units. Possessed are random and can't take a power weapon on the champion [to give at least SOME guarantee on reliability]. Any points spent on a unit that I don't know what I'll be using it for until after the game starts is crap. Lesser daemons can cost as little as they want - if all they do is cause me to lose combats by more, they're a detriment and unless they cost negative points, aren't worth it. Some other units, sure less points would do them well. PM should be less. Berserkers should be less. Compare khorne berserkers to the new death company and you'll see the same problem that CSM versus grey hunters have - one unit is obviously superior, but costs the same or less. "But Death Company aren't scoring" screw that. If I can wipe an enemy's scoring unit off the table, or a unit of theirs that was going to kill one of my scoring units, then that non-scoring unit has done FINE. Whether a unit is scoring or not shouldn't affect its points cost.

Vanguard Vets weren't the end-all be-all in the SM codex because they were expensive and limited. Now with BA you can buff them with FNP and Furious Charge, making them MUCH more worthwhile. Their deepstrike and assault may also come with only a 1d6 scatter too, allowing you to get much closer to the enemy. CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff aside from some weak, small-numbers deepstriking units like oblits or terminators that you hope do what you want them to do.

This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

I believe that a Chaos-Lash list won Adepticon this year, too...at least, that's what I gather from the thread about Adepticon in the Tournaments forum.

@Spellbound:

I'm appalled how many people still sing the praises of obliterators. They're.....good? More reliable than a defiler? Ok fine. But their nerf down to S4 T4 while increasing cost just makes me gag when I take them. For their cost they need to be 3 wounds, T4(5), T5, Feel no pain, or preferably some combination of two of those.

The fluff (now) matches the 'techmarine' background, hence the stat downgrade.
In addition, there was no point to T5 as people in the past assigned instant death weapons onto them anyway. 3.0 Dex was pure T5 then updated to 3.5 where it was RAI/RAW T4(5).
Str 10 powerfist was nifty, but oblits were not likely to be in combat so was moot.
For the cost, it makes sense, you pay for the versitility and the priviledge to use the Plasma Cannon or Multi-melta... cause there's only 2 platforms in which they exist in the Chaos Space Marine army, and the other one sometimes shoots your guys.

Reducing points cost alone is NOT a fix to a lot of those units. Possessed are random and can't take a power weapon on the champion [to give at least SOME guarantee on reliability]. Any points spent on a unit that I don't know what I'll be using it for until after the game starts is crap. Lesser daemons can cost as little as they want - if all they do is cause me to lose combats by more, they're a detriment and unless they cost negative points, aren't worth it.

Possessed are fine and functional. Reliability? How is it not reliable now? Pick a role and stick with it, 5/6 times it will be something to help them into or in combat. 1/6 makes them a distraction…easy to use IMO.
The idea is to have possessed be different than to another squad of MEQ with hidden special weapon. Rules wise they are fine, just expensive for what they do (which is counter attack)

Lesser Daemons: are functional as well, I can’t tell you the number of times opponents hate seeing my lesser daemons, few want to deal with a single 20 man squad…which don’t cost all that much more than like a moderately equipped tactical squad.

I just think the majority of people don’t use them and hence don’t have the proper attitude and expectations of them. Which is why I say that only the points are ‘wrong’ with those choices, they are functional on the table and do well enough with the rules they have now.

Plague marines less? I don’t know, they are still 1 point undercosted, even after the FNP balance.

Don’t Death Company have rage…sucks when they have to chase a speeder…which was what old World Eater had to do But I won’t discuss zerkers in length as I don’t have more experience with them.

As for:

CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff

My 20 man lesser daemon squad has done just that. Coming in and messing stuff up.
You just don't see 60 attacks coming out of nowhere in the CSM dex other than from lesser deamons.

As for termies, 5 Combi-plasma Termies have done well enough to mess things up, but yea Vanguard Vets of the BA are nice, obviously new Codicies will be cool/nifty and GW went onto the force multipler bandwagon way after the initial 4th/5th ed Codicies like CSM/Eldar.

We work with what we have. With respect to the CSM codex viewed by itself, all the units are functional and the issue is just cost IMO...(and then other things like fluff could use some work and the legions thing)

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

Would you care to elaborate your position? Pre-Leafblower tournaments don't count fyi. Do you have the battlereports for cet tournies? I'd be amazed to see how these chaos lists didn't get massacred using abbadon and a lash prince at 1750.

1500-1750 is the optimal power level point range for CSM. You can just squeeze in 2 lash + 9 oblits at that point level.
Believe me go 2000+ i.e. 'ard boz and CSM really show their weaknesses.

Weakness of options more specifically

Sanctjud wrote:@Spellbound:
Lesser Daemons: are functional as well, I can’t tell you the number of times opponents hate seeing my lesser daemons, few want to deal with a single 20 man squad…which don’t cost all that much more than like a moderately equipped tactical squad.

I just think the majority of people don’t use them and hence don’t have the proper attitude and expectations of them. Which is why I say that only the points are ‘wrong’ with those choices, they are functional on the table and do well enough with the rules they have now.

As for:

CSM don't have anything that will come from an unexpected quarter and mess with your stuff

My 20 man lesser daemon squad has done just that. Coming in and messing stuff up.
You just don't see 60 attacks coming out of nowhere in the CSM dex other than from lesser deamons.

We work with what we have. With respect to the CSM codex viewed by itself, all the units are functional and the issue is just cost IMO...(and then other things like fluff could use some work and the legions thing)

Indeed, I can not stress the number of times that summoning a screen of daemons to allow my guys to get the charge on Orks and Nids has saved my bacon. Or dropping in a unit of Raptors who clear out a unit and then summon up a unit of daemons, allowing my army to advance unmolested

Even though its not night lordy, Im going to try some daemons next game, along with some bikes. Do you use one or two squads of 20?

All CSM players fail, just because this is the first time your army is not ('') any more.

Orks were 9pts each in their last codex and had no gun and a 6+sv, they had to make orks cheaper or up them to 15pts like CSM and give them a +3 save and a bolter, bolt pistol and ccw, and even with my BS2 and STR3 that would STILL be AWESOME!!

Even now that Orks are 6pts i still look at 10 CSM and think; *will i make it, they have 8 bolters 1 ML with frag (you can't miss 20 or 30 orks) plus a bolt pistol and ccw and what ever the AC has*.

I then think about a trukk's good APC armor 10 and opened top... how could that fail.. wait.. bolters can hurt that and the ML has a krak shot. (!)

Ok ok what if i get a grot unit to stand in front of the orks (this is called a tactic, something CSM players don't have), but what if they have the psychic power lash like every CSM army? Well i'll just have to hope they use it to lash my Mega Nobs into the lascannons the Obliterators have, so they can die with no save.

This never really happens as all CSM players don't have any skill and don't use tactics, they just copy the other CSM player's that are older (although not any wiser) and take 2 melta guns and go tank hunting. They move forward 1st turn and i waaagh charge them 2nd turn after the grots get out of the way.

Also Abaddon the Despoiler is 2nd only to Great Overlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka as the best IC in 40k.

Really? I beg to differ Orks are just spam spam SPAM. Atleast all the ork armies I've ever seen.

Chaos can be shooty, super at CC or a mix of both. And were still winning tournys last I checked.

Orks: Take lotsa boyz and lootas

CSM: Take lotsa plauge marines and oblits

At least, that's the point I THINK he was trying to make, couldn't really figure it out through bad grammar.

Orks don't have much of a choice on the spam issue Shadowbrand, seeing as how they've only got two troops choices. CSMs have 5 (I think 6 if you count daemons).

I like what Darth said though, about people winning with lists they know. people who know their army list inside and out will do better than someone with a new army. There's a guy in our area who does really well with nids, he's been playing nids for a while, and he's figured out how to work his army, even after the new codex.

never seen one in my life time

everything in the ork army is good. the only army that sucks is necrons. my mate now has to plays 3 Monoliths andhe wins every game.
he is not having a cry about it. i have a 3.5ed book or 4ed the poor guy still has a 3ed book.

Vache Glace wrote:Pre-Leafblower tournaments don't count fyi. Do you have the battlereports for cet tournies? I'd be amazed to see how these chaos lists didn't get massacred using abbadon and a lash prince at 1750.

1500-1750 is the optimal power level point range for CSM. You can just squeeze in 2 lash + 9 oblits at that point level.
Believe me go 2000+ i.e. 'ard boz and CSM really show their weaknesses.

The leafblower thing is blown way out of proportion. Have you read the battle reports from Ard Boyz about that army? He got lucky in a lot of ways. I don't mind the idea of the leafblower list, frankly. I'd love to see a bunch of people slap them together and show up to Ard Boyz with brand new lists that they are unfamiliar with. Please God!

I couldn't disagree more with your bit about CSM being weak at 'Ard Boyz.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:everything in the ork army is good.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:everything in the ork army is good.

Meh, that's like saying everything in the Eldar army is good, and it's like saying everything in the Chaos army is good. When it's clear that while there's nothing really truly bad, some units are VERY sub par for the points (like defilers, dark reapers, and flash gitz).

^ That... throw in Shining Spears, Hawks, Phoenix Lords, Vypers, Spawn, Possessed, Lesser Daemons, etc.

Every Codex has its ups and downs.

Vache Glace wrote:
Lash:

Some people rely on lash as a crutch to win but I believe it should be used as a supportive weapon to increase the effectiveness with the rest of your army. However the recent shift in the meta game towards uber-mech and uber-psychic defense has made lash pretty much useless. For example: I recently played in a three game tournament and I only successfully casted lash once using double lash princes. Newer codexes now have ways of getting a ton of vehicles (IG, Orks) or have ways of crippling lash’s effectiveness via psychic negation or making lash more difficult to cast (SW, C:SM, Tyranids, Eldar and soon to be BA). Lash is a great ability but the fact that everyone else has changed while CSM has stayed the same has rendered it largely ineffective. The problem is CSM are forced to still use this HQ simply because there are very few other viable options.


Mechanization and Melta-Spam:

I covered this a bit in the Lash section but the fact that armies can take so many vehicles that have so many always of ignoring your attacks makes CSM effectiveness at killing vehicles quite poor. (i.e. Flat Out, KFF, Stones, soon to be BA skimmer, etc.) It seems like the meta is forcing you to spam as much melta as possible so you can kill these vehicles (this is obviously a double edged sword). Take too many melta and you are open to getting trainwrecked by horde armies. However if you don’t take a ton of melta you pretty much autolose against Landraider spam or IG Leafblower. This makes unit selections and winning tournaments seem like a craps shoot. (Yes I know obliterators are good against almost anything; they are also quite squishy)


Troops:

Chaos troops, albeit versatile, are very expensive. They pretty much need a rhino so they can get anywhere and so they can survive one round of shooting. This = 1 more easy KP.


Mobility:

CSM obviously suffer from a lack of mobility (as do mostly all MEQs). How am I ever going to hold multiple objectives if my troops get into a tarpit CC 2nd turn or their rhinos get lascannoned to oblivion turn 1? I’ve used a lot of reserves, Dsing, outflanking to try and combat this but this is generally to no avail.

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack

and

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:All CSM players fail. Just because this is the first time your army is not ('') any more.

Chaos were never all cheese. Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam is a combo that works effectively and its easy to use. Thats why many new and old CSM players adopted this strategy. The skilled CSM players went from there to make better lists. I have never played this tactic and most CSM players on this forum, as far as i can tell, dont play it either. Frankly its boring, its easy to beat if you know what to do, and CSM have far better options for play styles. Also comparing Orks to CSM really isnt a good method at all. In fact comparing Ork codex to CSM Codex is irrelevant all together as the styles of both books are completely different. Im not sure who you are playing but i do feel sorry for them to have to play against you.

sonsoftaurus wrote:
So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack

and

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

I like this quote...but it actually does compute, if you throw in one extra thing, range

inside 12", chaos is very good at breaking transports. Chaos is actually really strong inside that range (most marine armies are) the problem is as soon as you get out to even 24", almost every army can out-shoot you. The only way to solve this is with smoke, but even that's only a temporary solution.

Most battles with chaos involve the chaos army trying to get inside 12" where their troops are better with boltguns/meltaguns/flamers or pistol/charge (or daemonbomb), and the other army either trying to get there first or trying to stay outside that 12" range and dodging lascannon fire from the chaos HS.

sonsoftaurus wrote:

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack


2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

1) You're oversimplifying mechanization as a whole. A lot of mech is too far too tough to crack (see Landraiders, Trukks, Waveserpents, etc.) especially for CSM, who as starbomber mentioned, need to be within 6" to be even remotely effective at killing vehicles. The other problem CSM have is that they generally hold too many eggs in 1 basket. Armies with more target saturation i.e. IG chimera/valk spam requires chaos to shoot all their guns at 1 target whereas IG can spread out their firepower to be more effective.

2) For chaos yes this is the case. Rhinos are very easy to kill and are generally used only as mobile pieces of terrain. CSM do have trouble fighting mechanization and wielding it.

I think you misread my arguments. What I was trying to say was that:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack for Chaos' Offense

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP for Chaos' Defense

The two statements are by no means contradicting one another.

Vache Glace wrote:

sonsoftaurus wrote:

So...Chaos sucks in large part because:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack


2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP

Does not compute.

1) You're oversimplifying mechanization as a whole. A lot of mech is too far too tough to crack (see Landraiders, Trukks, Waveserpents, etc.) especially for CSM, who as starbomber mentioned, need to be within 6" to be even remotely effective at killing vehicles. The other problem CSM have is that they generally hold too many eggs in 1 basket. Armies with more target saturation i.e. IG chimera/valk spam requires chaos to shoot all their guns at 1 target whereas IG can spread out their firepower to be more effective.

2) For chaos yes this is the case. Rhinos are very easy to kill and are generally used only as mobile pieces of terrain. CSM do have trouble fighting mechanization and wielding it.

I think you misread my arguments. What I was trying to say was that:

1 ) Mech is too tough to crack for Chaos' Offense

2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP for Chaos' Defense

The two statements are by no means contradicting one another.

Yeah, they totally are in contradiction.

Chaos are just as able to field a Mech army as anyone. And guess what? Another army that's mech is just as KP heavy as a Chaos army that's mech.

And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

mrwittwer wrote:The skilled CSM players went from there to make better lists.

This is the key. If you're looking for the broken uber list, Chaos can't help you anymore. If you know how to play and maybe are any sort of tactician, the CSM codex can be your ticket to victorious tournament glory.

Trukks are hard to crack?

the_ferrett wrote:Trukks are hard to crack?

Yeah they are. Especially with Reaper Autocannons and Melta Guns!

You wouldn't believe how tough Raiders are in 5th Ed!

the_ferrett wrote:Trukks are hard to crack?

srry I meant to include Trukks in the target saturation part of my rant.

Monster Rain wrote:

Yeah, they totally are in contradiction.

Chaos are just as able to field a Mech army as anyone. And guess what? Another army that's mech is just as KP heavy as a Chaos army that's mech.

Wrong. Wave Serpents, Landraiders, new BA soon to be released flyer, etc. have far more survivability and don't give up their KPs nearly as easily. Most Chaos players I've met don't go nearly as mech heavy as the current meta suggests.

I'm not disagreeing that the sentence "1 ) Mech is too tough to crack and 2 ) Mech is too easy to crack and yields extra KP" isn't contradictory it's just that's not what I said. Please re-read my arguments. Chaos 1) have difficulty destroying vehicles at long range, 2) have easily killed vehicles that rarely win their points back. I fail to see how that's contradictory. The statement should have been "1) Chaos has a tough time destroying their enemies mechanized forces and 2) Chaos' mech is easily killed" (Note I said Chaos Not IG, Not SM, Not SW, Not Eldar, Not even Necrons, I am not talking about mech in general just Chaos' mech) My original post was not contradicting itself.

Monster Rain wrote:
And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

Ugh, did you even read my post? I said at range they have a lot of difficulty shooting down mech. Do you seriously think Havocs and Defilers can shoot down mech efficiently anymore? Defilers die turn 1/2 max, havocs get 1 round of shooting (likely at an obscured/popped smoked/flat out) before they get blasted by the enemy force or get locked up in CC. I think obliterators are very good but if you footslog them they get killed quite easily and DSing usually only equals 1 round of shooting before they get countercharged or plasma'd/lascannoned to death with ease.

Vache Glace wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
And to say that they can't deal with an opponent's mechanized force is just completely unfounded in reality. Havocs, Defilers and Obliterators... not to mention CSM with Heavy Weapons are more than capable of popping Rhinos and Devilfish and Wave Serpents.

Ugh, did you even read my post? I said at range they have a lot of difficulty shooting down mech. Do you seriously think Havocs and Defilers can shoot down mech efficiently anymore? Defilers die turn 1/2 max, havocs get 1 round of shooting (likely at an obscured/popped smoked/flat out) before they get blasted by the enemy force or get locked up in CC. I think obliterators are very good but if you footslog them they get killed quite easily and DSing usually only equals 1 round of shooting before they get countercharged or plasma'd/lascannoned to death with ease.

Yes, I think think that Autocannons, Lascannons, Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers are good at destroying transports.

Land Raiders are tough to kill, yes. They're also 250ish points.

I believe that the current CSM Codex is abit outdated with all the new SM Codex ( Space Wolves and Blood Angel) have better opinions, that could nellified all PYSC powers that CSM can throw. Another thing that CSM does not have is a good Fast Attack Slot at all. I had to really switch the way i play and even had to bring back my Dark Eldar Army out of the closet, just to stay competitive. I really believe that CSM should either break the current Codex and made each chapter to their own Codex, or GW should bring back 4th edition CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

The funny thing is that all the winners are from Europe and not from the States. I do agree that CSM can place in a touranment maybe last year, but the this year CSM really haven't place in the top 10. CSM needs a major overhaul.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I believe that the current CSM Codex is abit outdated with all the new SM Codex ( Space Wolves and Blood Angel) have better opinions, that could nellified all PYSC powers that CSM can throw. Another thing that CSM does not have is a good Fast Attack Slot at all. I had to really switch the way i play and even had to bring back my Dark Eldar Army out of the closet, just to stay competitive. I really believe that CSM should either break the current Codex and made each chapter to their own Codex, or GW should bring back 4th edition CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:This thread is rubbish. Let's look at some recent results:
2009 Dutch GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2009 Irish GT 1750 points: CSM Lash/Abaddon 1st place
2010 UK Throne of Skulls 1500 points: CSM Dual Lash 1st, 2nd, 6th place

Except for three at the Irish GT (and perhaps the Dutch GT) these were all standard mission, NO SOFTSCORE tournaments.

The funny thing is that all the winners are from Europe and not from the States. I do agree that CSM can place in a touranment maybe last year, but the this year CSM really haven't place in the top 10. CSM needs a major overhaul.

This is because the vast majority of U.S. tournament are softcoring affairs. When the majority of large tournaments in the U.S. are free of softscores then feel free to lecture about which codices are or are not competitive.

Just going to chime in quickly....because this thread is utter rubbish.


If all you want to is play a competitive army, and take a dump on the fluff, go play FOTM. Thats why it exists.

If you like CSM make em work. If you cant, you cant play.

Poker is not gambling, because its more than random cards, since it also includes playing your opponents.

Same is true for 40k, if you cant play your opponent youre already losing. Sun Tzu already said that eons ago.

I could switch to Space Wolves, i can even sub the fluff in so it works. I wont cause i like the icon system way too much, i rely on 4x special weapon havocs, and i wont give up my cult troops. Cause zerkers rock face if played right.


Play like youve got a pair, (yeah i know thats ripped from Warmachine ^^) and win, dont play the defensive line, cause then you can go back to playing puny loyalist swines.

Rant off. I like my CSM, they fit my playstyle, and i dont have a problem with using em.

Look, The arguments on both sides can be summed up thusly.

Pro CSM: Evidence

Anti CSM: Theory

This thread was over 3 pages ago when the UK GT results came out. Olympia put the F-ing lid on the casket and launched it into space with the tourney results. CSM are at least top tier, maybe best overall.

That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

The Chaos codex came out...then everything after that has been geared toward beating it more or less.

As to the "cheese" factor of Lash, I'm f-ing sick of people complaining about it. I bought the codex the first day it came out, and then bought a DP to convert, and termies to convert to oblits. Never went on the forums to hear what was good. Its not cheese its called tactics.

mr wittwer post your army list. i know it will have 2/3 units of Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam

40kenthusiast wrote:
That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

Is Adepticon a softscoring 'hobbyist' tournament? Is there comp?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just looked at the rules for Adepticon--39% soft scores! At least no com, although given that sports is judged by your opponent you risk being chipmunked on this if you bring two lash.

40kenthusiast wrote:Look, The arguments on both sides can be summed up thusly.

Pro CSM: Evidence

Anti CSM: Theory

This thread was over 3 pages ago when the UK GT results came out. Olympia put the F-ing lid on the casket and launched it into space with the tourney results. CSM are at least top tier, maybe best overall.

That's just the way the record stands now though. Anti-CSM, Adepticon is in 6 days. Let's see the strength of whatever you think the top tier is. You think there's been a sea change, prove it.

Solid proof always does make for a good argument. I too am curious as to how CSM will fare. Without a doubt there has been change, but that doesnt mean CSM is not top tier.

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:mr wittwer post your army list. i know it will have 2/3 units of Oblit/plaguemarine/lash spam

I think i have already stated in this thread i have never played a lash list, and i do not make this a proud fact i just never wanted to.

If you want to know why i never played a lash list, i dont like the dependence of the list being built around one psyker power, especially with all the anti-psyker gear. I dont believe chaos sorcerers to be a playable unit by any means, and my daemon princes will not be wasted moving units. I also dont have the models to play that kind of a list.

I do however use a 3 man unit of Obliterators, and a 10 man unit of plague marines. I am not going to post my whole list as that is irrelevant to this discussion.

I'll bite, here's my list breakdown:

1850:

2x flying lash princes

2x Noisemarine squads, Doomsiren champions in combi-melta rhinos

2x 2x melta CSM squads in combi-melta rhinos

1x 2x plasma CSM squad in combi-melta rhino

2x defilers w/ extra ccw, t/l heavy flamer

3x oblits.

2000:

Add in greater daemon and aspiring champions for food

2500:
drop greater daemon, add:

2x 5x melta chosen squads in combi-Plasmagun rhinos

additional Noisemarine squad as above in combi-melta rhino,

Dreadnought or 3-man termicide squad.



The synergy between lash and <insert template weapon here> is impossible to ignore. That's like accusing Blood Angels of being cheesy by including Sanguinary Priests to give their forces FNP - it's what they do.

I stand by my statement on Oblits though - they are not tough enough for what you pay. Techmarine statline? Who the hell cares? Chaplain Cassius is T6 because he has a metal face, why wouldn't a techmarine become super tough by being melded with a daemon after putting on terminator armour?

Meh. Oblits are tough enough. With two wounds and the prevalence of Cover Saves even a few Lascannon shots are going to be wasted taking down a squad of 3.

Chaplain Cassius is T6 because there has to be a fluff justification for why he's still alive after a brood of Carnifexes had their way with him!

No, there doesn't. Mephiston died fighting, he just got back up. T5 would suffice. Feel no Pain would suffice. He gets T6 and FNP and costs just over 100 points, while retaining the abilities to make a squad fearless and deadly on the charge, his 4+ invul [note: better than an oblit], a master-crafted combi-flamer [same as a twin-linked flamer], and a power weapon.

As tough as 2 terminators to S7 and below weapons is not tough enough for something that costs as much as 2.5 of them. I'd be willing to pay 80 to get S5 T5 and FNP on them, but for 75 I definitely want the S and at least T4(5).

The OP and most of the other whiners in this thread should just pack up their minis, and go home crying to their mommas.

That said, GT is a bunch of crap. If you read some of the battle reports, it's a "circle-jerk soft-score let's all play nice and love each other up the butt" tournament like every other big 40K event. The real competitive value of armies is set by your own group of gamers. If you think Chaos is second tier, then it just means you're the second tier player among your group. Sucks for you, but truth always hurts.

@Billie-Joe:
The weakness of the codex in the hobby is that people around the world all isolated end up putting together the same list as everyone else......there is a problem with that IMO.

Sadly, my list is 2 princes (no lash), 3 squads of plaues in rhinos, and 2 squads of 3 oblits.

Very sad as that is the list I came up maybe 2 days after the codex came out. It wrecked face so much everybody groins when playing against it, but it's really not hard to beat...it is inflexible to adapt to new situations and is essentially a good hammer/anvil, with all the pros and cons associated to it.

The codex is weak in my eyes due to the lack of options. Hell, I run a biker army now, the theme is still Chaos, but I'm essentially forced to use Loyalist rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been so bored with the competitive options I've even lost my mind to actually try and make work: spawn, dreads, possessed, lesser daemons, and other traditionally crap choices........

Monster Rain wrote:
Yes, I think think that Autocannons, Lascannons, Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers are good at destroying transports

It's not the weapons themselves that are bad it's the units that field them. Defilers usually die turn 1/2 max and rarely win their points back. Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

Terminus wrote:The OP and most of the other whiners in this thread should just pack up their minis, and go home crying to their mommas.

That said, GT is a bunch of crap. If you read some of the battle reports, it's a "circle-jerk soft-score let's all play nice and love each other up the butt" tournament like every other big 40K event. The real competitive value of armies is set by your own group of gamers. If you think Chaos is second tier, then it just means you're the second tier player among your group. Sucks for you, but truth always hurts.

Why don't you contribute something important to the discussion instead of just trolling. Saying someone sucks just becuase they make a reasonable thread with a reasonable set of arguments is lame. I've actually won 3 out of the 6 tournaments at my FLGS (it's kinda new) using CSM. There are no soft scores and the missions are pretty tame. This might be because of the meta in the area. It's just that for the last little while (post IG-SW-Tyranids) I barely get to use Lash, almost screwed if I don't get 1st turn, and face lots of armies that Chaos have a very difficult time dealing with.

Vache Glace wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

It's not the weapons themselves that are bad it's the units that field them. Defilers usually die turn 1/2 max and rarely win their points back. Havocs aren't very good either. Say you go first, it's unlikely that your Havocs will be able to see or shoot aything due to enemy positioning so they move up. Next turn they get 1 volley at a smoked/obscured/flat out vehicle that is nowhere near their point investement. Next turn they are either engulfed in CC or have been steamrolled by any decent shooting. Havocs are really only good against footslogging armies or if you need to kill low AV tanks like DE. If your opponent knows about how good Obliterators can be they will focus on them and usually kill them turn 1/2 or is they DS they will be swarmed or nuked after 1 volley.

Havocs cost less than Oblits, have more wounds for the points and get more (at least double) shots, not counting enemies in Bolter range. In addition that stray Lascannon shot only kills one instead of insta-killing one. Hardly call that bad. The only vehicles they wouldn't get their points back shooting are landspeeders and rhinos? I agree the CSM Dex lacks a good source of Dakka but havocs are the best we got IMO (in addition to being able to be a really fun assault unit with 4 flamers; uber cheap and uber good at what they do).