Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?
Remember be polite and don't fall for troll bait

The Imperial Guard isn't really analogous to the Rangers. The Imperial Guard is usually (but not always) better trained and equipped than the more numerous random PDF forces, but they aren't special forces. The Rangers are not generally battle-line troops, they don't occupy trenches or the like (usually), but rather are specialists, they are used for specific battles to accomplish specific tasks, they don't slog through entire campaigns or crew tank/artillery and the like.

The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies. the PDF is the forces of the lower nobility, expected to handle minor incursions and maintain general order, with the IG being the forces of the King to keep the lower nobles in line and respond to dire invasion. The PDF answers to the local planetary/sector Imperial Commander, whereas the Imperial Guard answers directly to galactic authorities. A more US centric version would be the PDF being the National Guard with the IG being the US Army, at least in terms of role and chain of command, even if not the same numbers ratio.

Vaktathi wrote:The Imperial Guard isn't really analogous to the Rangers. The Imperial Guard is usually (but not always) better trained and equipped than the more numerous random PDF forces, but they aren't special forces. The Rangers are not generally battle-line troops, they don't occupy trenches or the like (usually), but rather are specialists, they are used for specific battles to accomplish specific tasks, they don't slog through entire campaigns or crew tank/artillery and the like.

The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies. the PDF is the forces of the lower nobility, expected to handle minor incursions and maintain general order, with the IG being the forces of the King to keep the lower nobles in line and respond to dire invasion.

it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Well I was thinking storm troopers are like the Green Beret/Delta of the IoM

Guard regiments are more on the level of several thousand to the low tens of thousands, depending on the world in question. They're not quite analogous to modern Special Forces, because while they have a training and selection process as rigorous, they form an entire standing army, and so get used in a different capacity. It would be like if the US army was a hundred thousand SEALs or Rangers; they wouldn't get used as SEALs or Rangers currently are, but neither would they really be used as regular soldiers are either. Being a baseline for quality inherently shifts behavior; even when that baseline is exceptional in and of itself it ends up used differently than equal quality next to a lower baseline.

For instance, with equipment added into the equation modern soldiers aren't extremely different from nineteenth century sharpshooters in quality, but they're used in a different capacity than they were, while also being used in a different capacity than the contemporary baseline soldier would have been as well, while the general role they filled then is not thematically distinct from modern Spec Ops, though naturally quite different in terms of capacity and whatnot.

So, Guardsmen are used in a more advanced role than modern soldiers, and are closer to Spec Ops in training and ability, while a yet higher tier performs the role of Spec Ops, with a yet higher capacity.

Wardragoon wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Storm Troopers might be a better comparison. I think.

Well I was thinking storm troopers are like the Green Beret/Delta of the IoM

I thought these were all special forces. With Delta being slightly 'specialer'.

If Rangers were Storm Troopers I imagine Delta would be Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (who are supposed to be taken from the best of the stormtroopers).

Wardragoon wrote:
it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

I think it would be a mistake to refer to IG units as "small". IIRC one of the Eisenhorn books refers to a Gudrun regiment that is in the several hundred thousands. Size varies greatly between units.

Iirc rangers are a notch under special forces, Green Beret's are your standard special forces and Delta is even a tier higher.


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MountainSquid wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:
it just seems odd that IG Units are as small as they are and expected to be line troopers, but then again I am trying to logic 40k which in and of itself is heresy

I think it would be a mistake to refer to IG units as "small". IIRC one of the Eisenhorn books refers to a Gudrun regiment that is in the several hundred thousands. Size varies greatly between units.

so maybe some units are more elite than others

Wardragoon wrote:so maybe some units are more elite than others

Or maybe they came from a tribal planet with a miniscule population anyway. Numbers don't necessarily reflect quality.

I've always seen the IG as a military, and the PDF as a militia.

Wardragoon wrote:
so maybe some units are more elite than others

That's the way it always is (A Cadian regiment is going to be better trained and equipped then a regiment from the South Bumlick Agro-collective). If a planet has several billion people, it's going to give a bigger tithe than a planet of 10 million. I suspect the Tithe might be "Provide x number of troops" and planets that are not particularly martial may just hand over a Corps-size "Regiment", rather than breaking it down to what we 21st Century types consider "regiment size".

Thaanos wrote:I've always seen the IG as a military, and the PDF as a militia.

I'd imagine the PDF are closer to our modern military than most Imperial Guard contigents. The only difference being that most PDF's will be somewhat lax as they won't be engaging in wars if the planet is united, until they are attacked by outside forces. But you will get some PDF's every bit as hard and tough-as-nails as any IG regiment.

@OP you said 60,000 IG men IIRC there are millions of imperial gurdsmen.

imo

PDF are the natinal guard essentaly they look after the home front.

Whilst IG support astarties and conqour wolds and are deployed to stop invations when the PDF cannot handle it

@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

JamesMclaren123 wrote:@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

Depends, the PDF could be made of a war torn planet with many different facting vying for power, with real full-scale wars between these factions. They could experience common Xenos raids. So long as they met their tithe, the Imperium wouldn't care.
On the other hand the IG regiment could end up with a soft garrison duty somewhere.

The IG Codex mentions this. That some PDF forces deserve every bit of acclaim as the most worthy IG regiments, but are still looked down upon by the Guard.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:@Emperors Faithful i don't agree with you. the PDF will only ever really fight in one or so theaters or on their home planet.

where as the IG will fight on many planets for the whole of their lives .

Depends, the PDF could be made of a war torn planet with many different facting vying for power, with real full-scale wars between these factions. They could experience common Xenos raids. So long as they met their tithe, the Imperium wouldn't care.
On the other hand the IG regiment could end up with a soft garrison duty somewhere.

The IG Codex mentions this. That some PDF forces deserve every bit of acclaim as the most worthy IG regiments, but are still looked down upon by the Guard.

i agree with you but overall i think that the guard far outclass the pdf

I don't think that there is a big difference between PDF units and Guard units, at least not until the Guard units got some actual combat experience.
A planet will provide whatever it can as part of it's tithe, some planets might take this more serious than others and truly provide the best they have
while others merely round up some underhive scum, equip them with whatever can be expected as standard from this world + some basic training and call it a day.
Of course, there is most certainly a lower limit to what you can present to the Munitorum, at least as long as you wish to retain your govenourship so you cannot just
send some one leged cripples with rusty knives on a stick..., well, at least not for long

The Imperial Guard is the army, while the PDF are various state militias and national guard equivalents.


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KingDeath wrote:I don't think that there is a big difference between PDF units and Guard units, at least not until the Guard units got some actual combat experience.

Considering Guard takes the top X percent of all PDF units, and then trains them further... on average, Guard units are superior even before they get combat experience.

PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

Which in the eyes of the Imperium still makes them a militia. Sometimes quite well funded and equipped militias, sure. Sometimes even better equipped than the Guard, sure. But still a militia, effectively. A militia being "Defense activity or service, to protect a community, its territory, property, and laws", amongst other definitions such as "an official reserve army, composed of citizen soldiers."

In comparison to the Guard, the PDF basically are citizen soldiers, whereas Guardsmen are regular campaigners. The National Guard of the United States comes to mind as a modern equivalent.

It differs...
Depending on the planet (And its location) the PDF could be a highly trained and well equipped force on par with the Imperial Guard.
They could equally be a ragtag bunch of battle hardened ex-gang members using old weapons and equipment.
They could also be green recruits that will fold in the first few minutes of a fight.

PDF is militia at best...
Imperial Guard is army...
Stormtroopers are the Rangers...

The role of the Imperial Guard is t conquer/defend the worlds of the Imperium. Role of Rangers in 2'nd world war was to destroy enemy strong points and allow main force to go unchallenged, or with very little resistance. They where also working with British commandos.

Brother Coa wrote:PDF is militia at best...
Imperial Guard is army...
Stormtroopers are the Rangers...

The role of the Imperial Guard is t conquer/defend the worlds of the Imperium. Role of Rangers in 2'nd world war was to destroy enemy strong points and allow main force to go unchallenged, or with very little resistance. They where also working with British commandos.

PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

purplefood wrote:
PDF can be just as good as guard or simply random plebs armed with antiquated lasguns.
Imperial Guard can vary from normal soldiers to the equivilant of our modern day elites.
Stormtroopers are a world apart...

The only good PDF I know are Ultramar PDF, Cadia PDF, Terra PDF, Armageddon PDF.
Imperial Guard are varying from modern day elites to almost Space Marines. It is an army with 10.000 years of combat experienced, we have nothing to compare it to that.
Stormtroopers are the definition of solder...

Almost Space Marines? Try again...

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

Yes, they exist, but they are the exception, RARE exceptions.

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

In general yes, but you still get the odd defense force that would have fairly equal euipment if not training... though their guns are often woefully lacking since the only things i have read have them using single shot lasguns rather than proper ones...

Yes, they exist, but they are the exception, RARE exceptions.

Oh yeah definately rare and definately exceptions...

I think any generalizations with an organization as large and diverse as the Imperial Guard are bound to be futile.

For PDFs Take that futility with generalizations and multiply it about 1000 times.

purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

He might be referring to abhumans or the clone trooper experiments.

Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

Cadians : "Because of this, the Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium, short of the Space Marines themselves"

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:Almost Space Marines? Try again...

Cadians : "Because of this, the Cadians are widely regarded as the best troops in the Imperium, short of the Space Marines themselves"

Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

Well, Space Marines are canonically stated to each be the rough equal of twelve average Guardsmen. Depending on the degree of variance in quality, there could very well be Guardsmen worth twelve average Guardsmen, and thus equal or better than Space Marines. Then there's the matter of armor; I'd certainly say that the commander of a Baneblade is worth a whole lot more than a Marine on the battlefield, for instance...

A single Space Marine is equal to 12 gardsmen.
That number begins to increase more and more when you expand it...
A tactical squad is equal to more than 120 Guardsmen.
A company is equal to more than 1,200 Guardsmen.
A chapter is equal to more than 12,000 Guardsmen.
This is because their leadership and tactics are much better than IG leadership and tactics are, though it is possible to level the playing field with tanks and artillery as well as void/air support.

There's no indication that they're at all competent on a tactical or strategic level, not least of which because their main use is as shock troops used as blunt instruments to bash a hole in the largest concentration of resistance they can find. I dare say the Guard scale more exponentially than Space Marines, as the more Guard there are the greater the availability of special weapons and supporting vehicles, while Space Marines are optimized to be used at their "too few to make the lightest dent in anything" configuration, and just sort of repeat that the more there are present.

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Elysians are the Rangers of the IG.

Elysians are the airborne of the IG. You don't have to be a Ranger to be Airborne.

No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

Yep. The Elysians, much like the US Rangers or the British Special Air Service, can operate as air mobile infantry or 'paratroopers' as necessary.

I suppose rangers was a bad comparison, but I was going for that strata of troop quality, not quite special forces, not quite standard line troops

purplefood wrote:
Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

That's ok, but anywhere close?
They survived 13 Black Crusades.
They are deploying their troops all across the galaxy.
They are trained to be a solder from the age of 1.
Their Kasrkins are elites in Stormtroopers, they also have minor genetic enchantments so we may say that they are the closest thing ordinary man can be toward Space Marine.
Their Leader is Creed, one of the most brilliant tacticians ever in Warhammer 40k.

They are not even close when it comes to reflexes and training of an Astartes, but they are the closest thing to them in terms of Human beings.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Short being the operative word.
Space Marines have a plethora of genetic enhancements and improved training. Not to mention better equipment and squad/company level leadership. Cadians really aren't anywhere close, though they are better than the average Guard regiment...

That's ok, but anywhere close?
They survived 13 Black Crusades.
They are deploying their troops all across the galaxy.
They are trained to be a solder from the age of 1.
Their Kasrkins are elites in Stormtroopers, they also have minor genetic enchantments so we may say that they are the closest thing ordinary man can be toward Space Marine.
Their Leader is Creed, one of the most brilliant tacticians ever in Warhammer 40k.

They are not even close when it comes to reflexes and training of an Astartes, but they are the closest thing to them in terms of Human beings.

Not to sound like creed fanboy, but it has to be said Creed is probably THE most brilliant tactician, correct me if I'm wrong

Solar was better than Creed ( after all how many worlds did he conquer for the Imperium? )

But that is the past, for now it is Creed.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

US Army airborne and air cav are not automatically Rangers. The Elysians are more analogous to the first two than the Rangers.

For those of you who saw Band of Brothers, the paratroopers in Easy Company are elite troopers, but not Rangers. Just like the Elysians are elite troopers, but are not analogous to Rangers. They are people who can dismount from aircraft (or jump out) very quickly. Some might have training that makes them analogous to being rangers(Stormtooper/grenadier training), but that is in addition to airborne training.

MountainSquid wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No, they really are the rangers of 40k. They're closer to air cav than airborne infantry.

US Army airborne and air cav are not automatically Rangers. The Elysians are more analogous to the first two than the Rangers.

For those of you who saw Band of Brothers, the paratroopers in Easy Company are elite troopers, but not Rangers. Just like the Elysians are elite troopers, but are not analogous to Rangers. They are people who can dismount from aircraft (or jump out) very quickly. Some might have training that makes them analogous to being rangers(Stormtooper/grenadier training), but that is in addition to airborne training.

so maybe Airborne is a better comparison for IG in general when comparing them to PDF?

Wardragoon wrote:so maybe Airborne is a better comparison for IG in general when comparing them to PDF?

Nah, what has already been said is a better comparison: The PDFs are the National Guard/reserves/gendarmeries that are usually(but not always) not as well trained or equipped as the regular army(IG). As has been pointed out though, some PDFs are better than some IG regiments.

But these are the rare exceptions.

Melissia wrote:But these are the rare exceptions.

Yes.

Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Interesting. It'd be good to see where that came from. I can only remember comm beads being standard in the Gaunt's Ghosts books and Caiphas Cain. No mention of them in other fluff, and only Cain implies that they are regarded as standard, and only for squads, not for every soldier.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

It would also be farcical to claim that every, or even most, IG regiments all have extensive combat experience. Just because they were shipped off-world doesn't turn them into campaign winning veterans. A lot end up on garrison duty, part of Sector Fleet patrols (which may or may not see combat) or sometimes mop up duty in the wake of Astarte operations. And even if the regiment is thrown headfirst into a hellish warzone, they often don't come out intact.

This idea that IG reigments are 'L337' compared to PDF, to the extent that people are comparing a Hive World's PDF to the US National Guard 'Weekend Soldiers', is unfounded. It's a shame a lot of BL authors paint an unflaterring picture of PDF's. Look at Henry Zhou's work for PDF's doing much better.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

No, the comm beads are as standard a piece of their equipment as the lasgun.

Interesting. It'd be good to see where that came from. I can only remember comm beads being standard in the Gaunt's Ghosts books and Caiphas Cain. No mention of them in other fluff, and only Cain implies that they are regarded as standard, and only for squads, not for every soldier.

Melissia wrote:Just saying, people make a big deal out of exceptions, but it just makes them sound far more common than they actually are.

The IG Codex (Pg 7) disagrees. In fact it states that the disregard held against PDF's is largely unwarranted, the only difference between IG and Planetary forces is that PDF's don't have the opportunity to win honour and regard on foreign planets.

That specifically mentions combat experience, with the farcical claim that every world is constantly beset by all manner of external threats, because GRIMDARK, which is outright contradicted by both common sense and more detailed fluff.

It would also be farcical to claim that every, or even most, IG regiments all have extensive combat experience. Just because they were shipped off-world doesn't turn them into campaign winning veterans. A lot end up on garrison duty, part of Sector Fleet patrols (which may or may not see combat) or sometimes mop up duty in the wake of Astarte operations. And even if the regiment is thrown headfirst into a hellish warzone, they often don't come out intact.

This idea that IG reigments are 'L337' compared to PDF, to the extent that people are comparing a Hive World's PDF to the US National Guard 'Weekend Soldiers', is unfounded. It's a shame a lot of BL authors paint an unflaterring picture of PDF's. Look at Henry Zhou's work for PDF's doing much better.

In the Ghost's novels Abnett reffers to all the regements using combeads

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

For me the evidence is to the opposite. The IG codex that addresses it talked about how some regimants had advanced micro-beads and other bulky WWII-style walkie-talkies. I don't think commbeads are standard.

Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

See, thats what makes me think that IG are about like Ranger's in troop quality, since Storm Troopers are pretty much the Delta or Green Beret of the Imperium

Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as prefferable over the IG codex.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as preferable over the IG codex.

Rogerio134 wrote:Ive got to say i find the numbers of guard in the fluff strange at times, especially in the case of the Cain novells. In his 3rd book he describes 6 regiments of guard defending the entire planet with the help of the PDF against a chaos invasion.

Now dont get me wrong i know there are obviously alot of PDF but 6 regiments??? and for example Cains unit is 1000 strong and is defending several major settlements with no PDF help.

To make things worse they actually split their force into two groups to predict where the enemy will land! and even holds a company of Infantry in reserve. I dont understand how they think up these figures.

Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is this the one where he's at the Schola Progenium? Yeah...

Spoiler:

They weren't winning.

That was the last book, and there were no Guard, only PDF and a handful of Schola Progenium students led by three old veterans.

The one he was talking about was Traitor's Hand, where they're on the tidally locked world with a permanent light and dark side, which are somehow only the equivalents of death valley and anarctica, respectively. Several regiments defend the planet from an invasion by Khornates, while the Khornates largely ignore them and try to kill the Slaaneshis who are trying to turn it into a Daemon World.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Imperial Guard are equipped by the Munitorum, not the "PDF they were drawn from". The equipment that the Guard, by and large, will have is leaps and bounds ahead of the PDFs.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments changes dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of thier homeworld. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
-IG Codex, Pg 8

PDFs are equipped by the planets that they're based on, with some exceptions where the "PDFs" are in reality Guard regiments which means they're equipped by the Munitorum.

For the Guard: microbeads, night vision gear, and flak armor are 'standard'.
For the PDF: those are going to, with the exception of flak armor, be reserved for the more 'elite' formations of the PDF--depending on the technological level of the world and its importance to the Imperium.

Okay, find a source that supports this, and should be considered as preferable over the IG codex.

Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, p. 16 "Arms, Equipment and Accoutrements".

Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer wrote:
On the day of your enlistment/draft you were given all the vital equipment needed by a soldier of the Imperial Guard. Some details may differ from regiment to regiment but certain standardisation exists. Below is a list of customary items you will be expected to carry with you when on active duty.
(i)List of Attire

Combat fatigues.
[list]Shirt.

Undershirt.

Socks X4.

Undergarments.

Greatcoat.

Rain overalls.

Combat boots and laces.

Full body flak armour.

Webbing.

Leg gaiters.

Belt and holsters.

Bandolier.

Field rucksack w/ straps.

Helmet w/ micro bead pick-up (where available).

That good enough for you?

On page 26 it makes note of that "flak armour will not necessarily be patterned the same" and uses the examples that have been around for awhile of the Valhallans and their flak plated greatcoats v. a Cadian wearing the standard flak vest with heavier pauldrons.
The thing to remember about the "helmet w/micro bead pick-up" is that in all the variations we've seen it ranges from something as simple as what the Tanith had(a throat mic and earpiece that they removed from their helmets) to as complex as what the Cadians have(where it's a full vox system built into the helmet). However, the Imperial Munitorum Manual has this to say about Micro-Vox Beads.

Imperial Munitorum Manual, page 47--"Part The Fifth: The Personal Equipment of the Imperial Guardsman. Section I: Identification of the Most Common Items Issued To A Front Line Trooper". wrote:
Micro-vox Bead
The standard issue Imperial Guard micro-vox system is a lightweight vox system that allows commanders to communicate with their men while leaving their hands free to hold a lasgun or other item of kit. Such rare pieces of kit are generally only distributed to small, elite units that require stealth and cunning within earshot of the enemy. Designed to fit within the inside of a standard issue Imperial Guard helmet (Cadian Pattern), each set is fitted with a vox bead that attaches to the throat in order for it to pick up the vibrations of the larynx to translate sub-vocal inflections into speech in the receiving bead.

So here's where things get interesting.

The part from IIUP implies that the actual transmitter is the rare part, but the earpieces are common(they later talk about how voxcasters are used to relay orders to the micro-vox beads fielded by the rest of the squad and there's no mention of micro-voxes being "rare" like the IMM says).

I'm still looking for the NVG parts, but I'm probably cross-referencing some novel and I really can't be arsed to reread every 40k book to find a single passage.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, in general the Imperial Guard is several steps above. They all have pretty standard equipment far above most PDFs, even the well equipped ones. Every single soldier having his own personal radio the size of an ear bud, for example (useful for squad communication and communicating with superiors)..

Incorrect. The communication abilities of IG regiments varies wildly from regiment to regiment, just as it would from world to world.

False. All Imperial Guard regiments have commbeads and voxcasters that allow individual squads to communicate amongst themselves and up with command. It's considered quite standard equipment for them, but exceptional equipment for PDF (for whom a heavy voxcaster per squad is considered good communication abilities).

Where is this evidence that suggests that such advanced technology (individual commbeads) is so widespread amongst the IG? And so restricted amongst the PDF? Surely the IG from a planet will be equipped similarily to the PDF they were drawn from?

For me the evidence is to the opposite. The IG codex that addresses it talked about how some regimants had advanced micro-beads and other bulky WWII-style walkie-talkies. I don't think commbeads are standard.

Every single fluff story from BL involving the Guard had them use it. It is also in the standard Imperial Guard equipment in Dark Heresy.

And I said that the IIUP and IMM contradict each other slightly, with the IIUP implying that the throat microphone is the rare part. The receiver/headset is made out to be common what with the idea being that the "vox-caster operator will be relaying orders to the squad over their micro-beads".

That's what the "micro bead pick-up" would be--the throat microphone.

Of course I could be reading too much into it, but considering the Cadian models have the two protrusions on the side which are supposed to be for their headsets with the receiver being that little 'pack' on the back of the helmet, I'd say I might not be too far off.

But I still say that it's likely the IMM is mistakenly referring to two different kinds of micro-vox beads as the same.

Possibly, but the guard novels all indicate that the commbeads/microbeads/whatever you want to call them allow squad members to communicate with eachother at short range, as does the Dark Heresy version.

I wasn't disputing that. I'm saying that the tech for the two might be differently.

Throat-mics aren't unheard of in today's military or paramilitary units--but they're not standard issue in many cases. The standard wire-stalk headset/mic is the go-to for the most case it seems.

Might simply be the throat-mic variant is held in reserve for 'stealth' veteran regiments and the headsets get given to the rest of the guys who need something a bit easier to maintain.

I wouldn't call the 579th Valhallan a veteran stealth regiment. Although it was well reinforced, it wasn't ever better equipped than other Imperial Guard regiments.

Does it actually come out and say that they have the throat-mics rather than just simply 'micro-vox beads'?

Because what I'm trying to hammer home is that it might simply be two different variants.

Well the way it's been impressed upon me, is that "microbeads" are an earpiece that is a combined sender/receiver. I haven't read anything about throat mics outside of the munitorum manual.

Really?

Gaunt's Ghosts has made it clear for awhile that they use throat-mics, talking about how they 'flick' the throat piece for non-verbal communication if even subvocalization might be dangerous.

I'm still working on the Gaunt's Ghosts books, so bear with me about them...

Ah, here it is: "A micro-bead or comm-bead is a short-range communication device worn on the ear, good to about one kilometre. Such things as bad weather dense terrain, and intervening rock can greatly reduce its range, however."

That's all Dark Heresy has to say about it. It's considered standard guard fare. About as common as a respirator/gas mask. Or an autogun or shotgun.

Interesting. So we might be looking at variants.

More research is necessary. To the laboratorium!

I know that Cain seemed to think that all Guard units had microbeads, while they were much rarer in the PDF. But Cain isn't the most reliable source.

The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

This is from the last codex, found on page 62 with a list of "Imperial Guard Terms".

codex wrote:Micro-bead - (also micro-bead link, micro-bead intercom) small, short range vox system for inter-trooper communications in the field. Usually a small ear-plug with a tiny wire mouth-stalk. Generally only found on regiments from civilised or industrial worlds.

So they can be common in a regiment or rare for a regiment, it varies planet by planet.

The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

I prefer the previous codex when looking at the overall concept of IG forces simply because the doctrines help differentiate them and give a better feel of specialties given to regiments from certain planets.

Catachan:
Preferred Special Weapon= Flamer
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Heavy Bolter
-Veterans
-Jungle Fighters
-Hardened Fighters
-Special Weapon Squads
-Ogryn Squads

Terrax Guard
Preferred Special Weapon= Meltagun
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Lascannon
-Independent Commissars
-Special Equipment: Carapace Armor
-Close Order Drill
-Grenadiers
-Storm Trooper Squads

Kanak Skull Takers
Preferred Special Weapon= Flamer
Preferred Heavy Weapon= N/A
-Special Equipment: Warrior Weapons
-Ogryn Squads
-Hardened Fighters
-Rough Rider Squadrons
-Die Hards

Harakoni Warhawks
Preferred Special Weapon= Plasma Gun
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Heavy Bolter
-Drop Troops
-Storm Trooper Squads
-Special Equipment: Carapace Armor
-Heavy Weapon Platoons
-Special Weapon Squads

Mordian Iron Guard
Preferred Special Weapon= Grenade Launcher
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Lascannon
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Ratling Squads
-Heavy Weapon Platoons
-Sharpshooters
-Close Order Drill
-Die-Hards

Cadian Shock Troops
Preferred Special Weapon= Grenade Launcher
Preferred Heavy Weapon= Autocannon
-Grenadiers
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Special Weapon Squads
-Storm Trooper Squads
-Iron Discipline
-Sharpshooters
-Conscript Platoons

And that's just a few examples of how they differ planet to planet.

The Tanith micro-beads allow inter-squad communication simply by head direction but The Tanith are actually one of the most advanced regiments out there. Their uncivilized appearance and light infantry status is misleading and is because of their unusual founding circumstances.
The Kanak on the other hand, I don't expect have micro-beads.

The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

well when you have billions to spare......remember rangers participated on the beaches of Normandy during D-Day, and lets face it, lasguns suck in all forms, and they indeed do suck when you compare them to those with technological and biological advancements on them(or just age for most of the shooty races)

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

They are fielded en masse against enemies that are often physically superior and always outnumber them by a significant margin, and they succeed with relatively light casualties. Around a hundred thousand were committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which only ground to a halt on hitting a world that would have a population in the tens to hundreds of millions, and was reinforced by everything nearby (and it should be noted, only retreated when told that no reinforcements or supplies were coming, because their commanders no longer cared about what they were doing). A few tens of thousands are considered enough to take entire planets from entrenched forces that outnumber them twenty to one. A scant two thousand, with some supporting PDF, were enough to hold a world against a splinter fleet, that would have had ground forces numbering in the millions, suffering "only" around 50% casualties. Against a force that outnumbered them a thousand to one. And the survivors came through with no lingering trauma.

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

Which is what I was saying. How IG are equipped depends entirely on the world they came from.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

nomotog wrote:The problem with calling the IG elite is a simple one. They are bad. Don't take that the wrong way. I like the IG they are my second fav, but we call their weapons flashlights. They are deployed in mass, used as cannon fodder, used to clear minefields, used as building materials. They are just too common and too weak to be called rangers.

I mean would you have generals shooting rangers to keep them from running away?

They are fielded en masse against enemies that are often physically superior and always outnumber them by a significant margin, and they succeed with relatively light casualties. Around a hundred thousand were committed to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which only ground to a halt on hitting a world that would have a population in the tens to hundreds of millions, and was reinforced by everything nearby (and it should be noted, only retreated when told that no reinforcements or supplies were coming, because their commanders no longer cared about what they were doing). A few tens of thousands are considered enough to take entire planets from entrenched forces that outnumber them twenty to one. A scant two thousand, with some supporting PDF, were enough to hold a world against a splinter fleet, that would have had ground forces numbering in the millions, suffering "only" around 50% casualties. Against a force that outnumbered them a thousand to one. And the survivors came through with no lingering trauma.

I wouldn't put too much weight on the Cain reference. The books demonstrate only the vaugest sense of numbers. Either Caiphas Cain was too busy securing his own survival to pay much heed to the actual logistics of the forces around him, or Sandy Mitchell hated Maths as a school subject.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your point stands though. It's more often the overpowering/terrifying nature of the enemy that defeats the IG, rather than any lack of quality on their part. As effective as a lasgun is, power armour is that much better.

But then, power armor is something the IG pretty much never faces anyway.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The problem is finding a reliable source that talks about a roughly modern or above level PDF.

Aexe Cardinal's forces most certainly do not count for that.

Hrmh. Wait a second, the Herodian PDF had microbeads and vox-casters alongside of those nifty flamethrower gauntlets.

Which is what I was saying.

Neither of those planets have Guard regiments for us to compare to, so it's kind of invalid. Aexe Cardinal showed us a WW1 level of technology for the PDF though. The Genswick were astonished by the fact that Mkoll and his men each carried a personal vox, something the Genswick required having in their trenches.

How IG are equipped depends entirely on the world they came from.

In terms of the uniform pattern or how certain parts like the flak armor is expressed, maybe.

Them actually having flak armor, a helmet, and a lasgun is non-negotiable though. It might simply be that regiments like the Kanak Skull-Takers(which, let's face it were only introduced so people could retain many of the Traitor models made using Catachan/Marauder bits that folks used during the EoT campaign) don't use the gear--but it certainly isn't set in stone that it's a case of they don't have it.

Wardragoon wrote:
well when you have billions to spare......remember rangers participated on the beaches of Normandy during D-Day, and lets face it, lasguns suck in all forms, and they indeed do suck when you compare them to those with technological and biological advancements on them(or just age for most of the shooty races)

Their where also a lot of enlistedmen at the battle too. That is the role of the IG. You really don't have to look anywhere else then their fild kit. Lasgun, flack armor, and com. The most basic set up you can give to a solider.

Actually their field kit is more complex than that.

Standard field kit given to the Imperial Guard by the munitorum according to Dark Heresy (not all regiments utilize all of these things, but they are there to be used by any recently formed regiment), including notes:

* Basic uniform, varies widely.
---- Often part of the armor, as flak can be woven into clothes for mobility (but reduced protection).
* Full set of Imperial Guard flak armor in the style chosen by the regiment.
---- Anything from a flak vest (Catachan) to a flak greatcoat (DKoK) to full on flak armor (Cadia).
* Military-grade Lasgun (frequently better than civilian patterns)
---- Or autogun, for that matter, but lasgun is more common. Has multiple power settings, rapid fire, etc.
* Military-grade Lasgun
---- Most regiments deem it not important enough to issue, but veterans usually have some kind of trophy pistol.
* Combat Knife / Bayonet / Sword / Axe / Hammer / Etc
---- The combat knife functions as a bayonet and has lots of other noncombat uses, so it's most common.
* 9-70 Entrenching Tool
---- Small folding shovel, used for entrenching and filling sandbags. Also a weapon.
* Backpack
* Bedroll/Heavy Blankets
---- Sometimes foregone if they have a stable base of operations, to reduce weight.
* Compass/Orienting Device
---- May not work on all worlds, so some regiments go without them and instead use landmarks.
* Hostile Weather Gear
---- Depends on the regiment and the nature of the deployment.
* The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer
---- Mandatory for all soldiers by Imperial law.
* Lamp Pack
---- A form of flashlight basically. Can be attached to the gun or helmet, with about five hours of battery.
* Mess Kit
---- Spoon, fork, knife, collapsible mug, in a clamshell container which functions as a small tray.
* Personal Grooming Kit
---- Kit containing things such as soap, shaving gear, dental care, etc. What's in it depends on the regiment.
* Sandbags
---- They aren't gonna carry it around unless their officers think they're gonna use it, but they have access.
* Tent
---- Usually kept at camp, unless they're moving their camp.
* Tool Kit
---- Screwdrivers, wrenches, wires, small multipurpose axe, duct tape. For general repairs and light construction.
* Weapon Maintenance Kit
---- Exactly what it says it is. Absolutely mandatory.


This isn't everything they would have either, just the sort of general kit of a Guardsman, which is available for all regiments to requisition as needed. The munitorum manual and IIUP have other things which are standard in their list. As a side note, the list code on this forum is obnoxious so I just used asterisks.

Melissa, it's the IMM, not the Munitorum Manual.

We'll make these acronyms work dagnabbit!

I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself. The Emperor provides them with enough to fight and die with in His glorious name, thats all that matters.

The Imperial Guard is, well, everthing. Different military regiments specialise in different things, and so you can find a regiment for any situation. This has probably already been stated, but I guess that makes them the general military all-purpose force.

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

That, and the extra training, is what sets the Imperial Guard apart from the PDF. Sure, not all units use this equipment (such as the noted regiments who sometimes forego using commbeads). Some of them have extra equipment or have their own from their own planets (the vostroyan firstborn having their own excellently crafted lasguns for example). Some of them have special equipment given to them for the sake of their duties (such as the cameleoline cloaks used by the Tanith and other recon regiments).

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Vaktathi wrote:The Imperial Guard is much better related to feudal armies.

Personally, I'd point to two different sources as examples for most of the IG. For the regimental organization, I'd look to the method that the British use for putting together their own military units. Their military is largely composed of a number of regiments that are frequently (though not always) identified by the place of origin. Everyone used to do this, but most (if not all) other armies have foregone this in the modern era. The British, for whatever reason, have not. Regiments are usually combined to form divisions and corps, but everyone remembers the names of the regiments.

For the style of the army, I'd point to Communist Bloc militaries, particularly during the second half of World War 2 when the Soviets were throwing everything and the kitchen sink at their German opponents. You even have commisars!

(though that's not the reason why I'm put in mind of the Soviet WW2 era military)

As for communication, let me point out that those big vox casters carried by individual Guardsmen are known to be powerful enough to call up to ships in orbit. The personal level vox communicators are of a much, much smaller scale.

And yes, I would hold that the majority of the Guard IS fairly consistent...at least in terms of equipment. We just think that the organization as a whole is a whole lot more diverse than it actually is because the stories focus on the different ones. We don't get stories of generic Guard regiment #451 from generic civilized world #1291 because that story would be relatively boring as opposed to stories about the different more interesting regiments.

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

Yeah...except they don't. Each planet is responsible for training and equipping their tithe. Hence why the IG from at planet will be almost identical to the PDF of that planet. If there's one thing about the make-up of the guard, it's that they are anything but standard. They're as diverse as much as the million worlds of the Imperium are diverse.

I would also imagine that the Imperial Guard Codex is a more reliable source than the IMM or the Uplifting Primer (which is basically a joke). The munitorium provides provisions and ammunition to keep the regiment running, but the Planet is responsible for equiping them.

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Of course, that explains the regiments that fight with spears/cross-bows/muskets.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

The entire purpose of the Departmento Munitorum is to raise and supply regiments. The regiments, as noted, CAN choose to supply and use their own weapons in place of the Munitorum's weapons. But the fact remains that the Munitorum does in fact provide for the regiments otherwise. They raise regiments, supply newly raised regiments, and provide for the transport of the various regiments. And they have standard equipment for the Guard units they raise, everything a basic soldier needs for war. In fact, this is the very reason that the lasgun is the most commonly used Imperial weapon-- it vastly simplifies the supply chain for the Departmento Munitorum.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent. It has several consistent standards that ALL Imperial Guard regiments are provided with by the Munitorum on the day of their founding and allowed to requisition enough to supply all of their men with regardless of the role of their soldiers.

Yeah...except they don't. Each planet is responsible for training and equipping their tithe. Hence why the IG from at planet will be almost identical to the PDF of that planet. If there's one thing about the make-up of the guard, it's that they are anything but standard. They're as diverse as much as the million worlds of the Imperium are diverse.

I would also imagine that the Imperial Guard Codex is a more reliable source than the IMM or the Uplifting Primer (which is basically a joke). The munitorium provides provisions and ammunition to keep the regiment running, but the Planet is responsible for equiping them.

But they still all have access to that same standard level of equipment, with how they use it being up to the regiment in question.

Of course, that explains the regiments that fight with spears/cross-bows/muskets.

So if the munitorium provides ammunition, you're telling me that they provide arrows, crossbow bolts, musket balls, and black powder?

o.O

EVERYBODY gets a lasgun. It's specifically designed so that even the biggest technophobic idiot can figure out how to use it.

1.) Point barrel at enemy.
2.) Pull trigger.
3.) When light stops coming out of the end after trigger pulls, remove the power pack and leave it out in the sun for a few hours.
4.) Attach a spare power pack.
5.) Repeat

I would have to say regiments like the Elysian are closer to what Rangers would be. Rangers are commonly airborne units and will either drop in or air assault out of helos and have far more specific and specialized missions than just "Dude sit in that hole and watch this line" (although it can happen). Stormtroopers would also be closer to what rangers would be. Normal guardsmen are like US Army's 11B (infantrymen). Special Forces (what most people call green berrets) don't really exist in standard regiments. People like Marbo are about as close to SF as you're going to get. Irregulars just don't have a good fit in table top.

I'd like to imagine SF type troops in a 40k game. It'd go something like this.

(Side A = full army, side B = irregulars)

Side A deploys units. "Ok ready to go"
Side B stands there. "Cool, I'm deployed"
Side A: "Where?"
Side B: "Right there" *points to random spot*
Side A: "I don't see it. Well I guess we can start"
Side B: "Cool, you can go first."
Side A: "Uh... I guess I'll move. This looks a like like you holding in reserves, did you do that?"
Side B: "Well... kinda, you'll see."
Side A: "K I guess I'm done now."
Side B: "Awesome, me too."
Side A: "Wow that was fast. Ok I'm gunna move my... wait why can't my tanks move? And where's my HQ?"
Side B: *smirk*
Side A: "Crap my whole line is crippled! What did you do?"
Side B: "Stuff"
Side A: "Wow, that's a lot of dudes. What is that?"
Side B: "Oh that? That's just the indigenous people I trained to be soldiers while you weren't looking. They're taking their sector back. I can leave now. Cya!"
Side A: "Hey I can see your guys now. Wait you did all that with 4 models?"

Sothas: Weirdly enough, what you described is what the Ecclesiarchy does, not the Imperial Guard.

In specific, the Missionaria Galaxia.

IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Quite frankly, that's just marinewank there.

The Imperial Guard wins more battles in a decade than the Astartes have ever won in ten thousand years of service since the Horus Heresy, simply because of the fact that the Imperial Guard is everywhere in the Imperium.

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

Okay, you're right, or you would be if your argument involved anything more than dismissing out of hand solid canon evidence and substituting it with dubious fluff of your own. Find a reliable source that shows that the Imperial Guard IS universally standardised, and give me a good reason why it should trump over the IG Codex.

The entire purpose of the Departmento Munitorum is to raise and supply regiments. The regiments, as noted, CAN choose to supply and use their own weapons in place of the Munitorum's weapons. But the fact remains that the Munitorum does in fact provide for the regiments otherwise.

Yeah, the munitorium provides for the regiment. In things like:
-Food
-Ammuntion
-Transport
-That's about it.

They don't dish out commbeads or flak armour. They sometimes don't even provide lasguns to those regiments that don't come equipped with them.

They raise regiments, supply newly raised regiments, and provide for the transport of the various regiments. And they have standard equipment for the Guard units they raise, everything a basic soldier needs for war. In fact, this is the very reason that the lasgun is the most commonly used Imperial weapon-- it vastly simplifies the supply chain for the Departmento Munitorum.

This is all done by the planet. It's specifically mentioned that the only piece of equipment that can be considered standard is the lasgun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eumerin wrote:
So if the munitorium provides ammunition, you're telling me that they provide arrows, crossbow bolts, musket balls, and black powder?

o.O

No, these regiments either clue in to how useful a lasgun is really quickly, or they make do without (and ussually die).

EDIT: Given the nature of the Munitorium, I wouldn't be surprised to see primitive regiments recieving several shipments of ammuntion for lasguns, even if don't even have the weapons to use the ammunition.

And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

If you had read my earlier posts you'll see I've been referencing the current IG codex, silly.

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more cool when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Yeah...except they don't.

You are correct about this, if you want to completely and utterly ignore the overwhelming majority of the lore of 40k's Imperial Guard faction and instead rely on flights of fancy and flanderization.

Okay, you're right, or you would be if your argument involved anything more than dismissing out of hand solid canon evidence and substituting it with dubious fluff of your own. Find a reliable source that shows that the Imperial Guard IS universally standardised, and give me a good reason why it should trump over the IG Codex.

What else can I say about nonsensical uncited arguments which completely contradict every level of fluff that exists? It's like if someone tried to argue Space Marines don't use boltguns as standard weapons, but instead use gauss flayers and scatter lasers.

You're wrong. Your arguments are wrong, your arguments make no sense, your arguments contradict the IG codex, your arguments contradict the Ciaphas Cain series, your arguments contradict the Gaunt's Ghosts series, your arguments contradict the information in Dark Heresy and its suppplements, your arguments contradict the IIUP, your argument contradicts the IMM. You're really just making things up.

Melissia wrote:What else can I say about nonsensical uncited arguments which completely contradict every level of fluff that exists? It's like if someone tried to argue Space Marines don't use boltguns as standard weapons, but instead use gauss flayers and scatter lasers.

Wow, love you too.

You're wrong. Your arguments are wrong, your arguments make no sense, your arguments contradict the IG codex,

My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

your arguments contradict the Ciaphas Cain series,

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

your arguments contradict the Gaunt's Ghosts series,

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

your arguments contradict the information in Dark Heresy and its suppplements,

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

your arguments contradict the IIUP,

The Uplifting Primer is a joke. Are you going to start using it in threads about the Tau and their ineffective weaponry?
If anything, contradicting the IIUP gives water to my argument.

your argument contradicts the IMM.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

You're really just making things up.

Come on now, we can do this reasonably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:A

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

Hang on, is the Munitorum on each Imperial Planet? Is it they who found new regiments?

How do they manage to standardise equipment then?

Emperors Faithful wrote:My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

No they don't. Your arguments come from an intentionally skewed interpretation of it.

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

Except that he does, whenever he talks about the standard equipment that all Guard regiments are supposed to have, something which he would indeed know about because he's an Imperial commissar, trained in the Schola Progenium, by far the most prestigious school in the Imperium.

You know, because you're wrong and all.

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

Which is why it was mentioned that Larkin was specifically issued his sniper rifle from the munitorum because of his excellent aim, amongst other references, right?

Oh wait. No. You're wrong. It was, as with all Guard regiments, the local Munitorum department which had hte regiment supplied. And, if you paid attention to the novels, you'd notice that they used most of the various tools I listed previously in this thread as standard equipment, and other regiments when referenced had similar equipment.

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

You mean aside from the fact that there's a standard list of infantry equipment in the Inquisitor's Handbook? And of course, that items like the Sunfury Plasma Gun is issued to Imperial Guard units facing heavily armored foes, and items like the Mars Pattern Laspistol being presented to officers when they obtain company command, or that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun (the long one being the sniper rifle) is specifically stated to be "standard issue"?

The Departmento Munitorum deals with a bewildering variety of fighting styles and cultures, but it still supplies a standard set of equipment. The regiment can choose to utilize equipment from their homeworld instead, and many do-- such as preferring different styles of flak armor, or preferring to use a weapon other than the standard lasgun. The Munitorum has a set of regulation armor and weapons, but they are closer to loose guidelines provided that the regiment can still be effective using other armor and weapon styles.

The Uplifting Primer is a joke.

Only when dealing with xenos, because it is not proper for the average citizen to know anything about them. When talking about equipment, rules, and regulations it is very specific and serious, as it should be-- it needs to be in order to make sure the guardsmen that read it understand their duties and how to maintain their equipment.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

It doesn't, it only supplements it. The fact that your argument relies on a skewed interpretation of C:IG doesn't mean it contradicts C:IG.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Hang on, is the Munitorum on each Imperial Planet? Is it they who found new regiments?

How do they manage to standardise equipment then?

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: Because the Imperium produces massive amounts of standard equipment-- such as the aformentioned Mars Pattern Short Lasgun. In fact, being given the right to produce Mars Pattern Short Lasguns is quite an honor, and a blessing to one's profits because they KNOW that the munitorum will buy up a certain amount of them. The lasgun itself as well as Flak armor are both impressively easy to make, most worlds are capable of producing a few thousand sets of each for a new regiment with relative ease even if they are not a forge or hive wold.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more intruding when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Except for the whole thing where a few tens of thousands are considered sufficient forces to take entire worlds, with the millions of entrenched defenders that go along with that. They're comprised entirely of the most skilled and physically capable troops recruited by their worlds PDF, after receiving as much training as modern US soldiers receive, and are then given a further half year of training, and then train constantly for the months it takes for them to actually get anywhere. Against Orks they're outnumbered dozens or hundreds to one, and against Tyranids they're outnumbered by the thousands, and yet prevail against both more often than not, despite being physically weaker than both.

Space Marines only show up for one in a hundred fights, and never in great enough numbers to actually do anything; Space Marines are canonically worth twelve Guardsmen each, leaving the strength of an entire company at drastically less than an infantry regiment, and even an entire chapter comes out to only two to four times that of a regiment by both codex and Black Library standards (the codex puts the normal upper limit of a regiment at around 6000, going off the 3-20 companies, each 3-6 platoons, each 2-5 ten man squads, and Black Library books generally put it around 3000 or so). Whenever Space Marines are described as victorious, one should read it as "happened to be present as the Guard carried the day, and took credit for it" and in the case of one Marneus Calgar "happened to be present and doing everything in his power to sabotage the Guard, but they triumphed nonetheless, which he then took credit for".

Hell, Space Marines only show up for one in a million fights, if that...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Imperial Guard in general are trained solders with good lidership and good equipment and balls of steel. Their job is to hold the line and conquer worlds in the Emperor's name. You want proof? Just see at Nimbosa how long 1 Regiment hold out and entire Tau strike force, or at Armageddon how brave Stell Legion is.
Guard should be respected and you should be afraid of her...

You really should know better. The IG was slaughtered on Nibrosa. Twice. It was the BT who finally took out the tau.

The IG is not an army of supper solders. (That's the SM's job) It's a good thing. The guard is a lot more intruding when they use human wave tactics and old style trench warfare. If you try to paint them as the bad mothers of the IoM who take out armies over twice their size, they just turn into lame copies of the tau, or the SMs with out anything that makes SMs cool.

Except for the whole thing where a few tens of thousands are considered sufficient forces to take entire worlds, with the millions of entrenched defenders that go along with that. They're comprised entirely of the most skilled and physically capable troops recruited by their worlds PDF, after receiving as much training as modern US soldiers receive, and are then given a further half year of training, and then train constantly for the months it takes for them to actually get anywhere. Against Orks they're outnumbered dozens or hundreds to one, and against Tyranids they're outnumbered by the thousands, and yet prevail against both more often than not, despite being physically weaker than both.

Space Marines only show up for one in a hundred fights, and never in great enough numbers to actually do anything; Space Marines are canonically worth twelve Guardsmen each, leaving the strength of an entire company at drastically less than an infantry regiment, and even an entire chapter comes out to only two to four times that of a regiment by both codex and Black Library standards (the codex puts the normal upper limit of a regiment at around 6000, going off the 3-20 companies, each 3-6 platoons, each 2-5 ten man squads, and Black Library books generally put it around 3000 or so). Whenever Space Marines are described as victorious, one should read it as "happened to be present as the Guard carried the day, and took credit for it" and in the case of one Marneus Calgar "happened to be present and doing everything in his power to sabotage the Guard, but they triumphed nonetheless, which he then took credit for".

I wasn't really arguing cannon. I corrected him about nimbrosa because he got that wrong, but the rest of it was just me describing in what form I like the guard the most. The way warhammer cannon works is varied. I am sure someone can find tons of examples of the guard beating up on people they honestly have no right beating, and you can find examples of the guard losing to a baby and a rattle. It's the way cannon works. I just like the guard better when they are half incompetent force that builds walls out of their dead. You can say that that aspect is overly flanderized, but I like that.

Side note, Is a SM really only worth 12 guard? That is awful. For the price of one SM you could get way more then 12 guard.

Perhaps, but then, you'd find it hard to drop pod 120 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy position and expect them to rapidly eliminate every threat. Marines have their uses, and they're damned good at those.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:My arguments come directly from the IG Codex. If you want I can include more quotes from it.

No they don't. Your arguments come from an intentionally skewed interpretation of it.

Cain had a derisive opinion of the PDF, that's true, and he also admitted he was an unreliable source. He doesn't claim that the Valhallan's received their technology or equipment from the Munitorium when they were founded.

Except that he does, whenever he talks about the standard equipment that all Guard regiments are supposed to have, something which he would indeed know about because he's an Imperial commissar, trained in the Schola Progenium, by far the most prestigious school in the Imperium.

You know, because you're wrong and all.

TheTanith First and Only were not equipped by the Munitorium when they were founded, but by the planet Tanith.

Which is why it was mentioned that Larkin was specifically issued his sniper rifle from the munitorum because of his excellent aim, amongst other references, right?

Oh wait. No. You're wrong. It was, as with all Guard regiments, the local Munitorum department which had hte regiment supplied. And, if you paid attention to the novels, you'd notice that they used most of the various tools I listed previously in this thread as standard equipment, and other regiments when referenced had similar equipment.

The Armour of Contempt (or was it the book after?) showed an IG regiment that didn't have any issued commbeads.

Can't recall the passage that says all IG equipment is standardised from there either.

You mean aside from the fact that there's a standard list of infantry equipment in the Inquisitor's Handbook? And of course, that items like the Sunfury Plasma Gun is issued to Imperial Guard units facing heavily armored foes, and items like the Mars Pattern Laspistol being presented to officers when they obtain company command, or that the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun (the long one being the sniper rifle) is specifically stated to be "standard issue"?

The Departmento Munitorum deals with a bewildering variety of fighting styles and cultures, but it still supplies a standard set of equipment. The regiment can choose to utilize equipment from their homeworld instead, and many do-- such as preferring different styles of flak armor, or preferring to use a weapon other than the standard lasgun. The Munitorum has a set of regulation armor and weapons, but they are closer to loose guidelines provided that the regiment can still be effective using other armor and weapon styles.

The Uplifting Primer is a joke.

Only when dealing with xenos, because it is not proper for the average citizen to know anything about them. When talking about equipment, rules, and regulations it is very specific and serious, as it should be-- it needs to be in order to make sure the guardsmen that read it understand their duties and how to maintain their equipment.

The only source you've mentioned that I haven't read. Now can you tell me why it overrules the IG codex?

It doesn't, it only supplements it. The fact that your argument relies on a skewed interpretation of C:IG doesn't mean it contradicts C:IG.

IG Codex Pg 7, last paragraph wrote:
When raising an army groupthe Departmento Munitorium is responsible for munitions, supplies, recruitment, training, medical and technical support. The methods by which forces accumulate are haphazard at best, many thousands of troops from doezens of regiments across several worlds are raised and directed to the appropriate war zone.

It takes a fairly skewed reading of that to argue that all equipment is provided to a regiment when it is founded. Especially when you look at this extract on the following page.

IG Codex Pg 8, last paragraph wrote:
Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of their home world. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniforms and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment is the lasgun. This weapon is cheap and easy to manufacture, extremely reliable and simple to maintain.

1: Yes

Okay, so don't they use what equipment is available on that planet when a regiment is founded?

2: Yes

IG codex states that it is the responsibility of the planetary governor to found the regiments. The Munitorum oversees this.

3: Because the Imperium produces massive amounts of standard equipment-- such as the aformentioned Mars Pattern Short Lasgun. In fact, being given the right to produce Mars Pattern Short Lasguns is quite an honor, and a blessing to one's profits because they KNOW that the munitorum will buy up a certain amount of them. The lasgun itself as well as Flak armor are both impressively easy to make, most worlds are capable of producing a few thousand sets of each for a new regiment with relative ease even if they are not a forge or hive wold.

Well yeah, flak armour and lasguns are so common because they are so easy to make. Things like comm-beads for each individual soldier aren't standard to every planet. Whether or not a regiment is equipped with them would depend largely on whether they were available on that planet.

Ah, there it is, found it. Near the beginning of the fourth book of Gaunt's Ghosts:

Most of that weight came from the modular webbing pouches filled with ammo, lamp packs, sheathed blades, waterproof microbead sets, coiled climbing rope, rolls of surgical tape, ferro-plastic binders, Founding-issue Imperial texts, door-spikes, flashbombs, and all the rest of the standard issue Imperial Guard kit.

40k's fluff in general is often quite vague, but here Dan Abnett directly states that there is a wide variety of equipment considered standard for Imperial Guardsmen. This supports what the rest of my sources state.

Melissia wrote:Perhaps, but then, you'd find it hard to drop pod 120 guardsmen into the middle of an enemy position and expect them to rapidly eliminate every threat. Marines have their uses, and they're damned good at those.

You got me there.

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

EDIT: Mind you we're dealing with multiple dex fluff and BL nonsense. To make some sense out of it, one could posit:
-the Ministorum draws the levies.
-The levies are made up of locals and equipment. Often this is pretty standardizes but not always.
-The M then feeds and provides the logistical tail.
-If technology for the regiument is near a standard level the M supplies them with standard level equipment sourced from a variety of locations, hence some variance.
-If regiment technology is specialized the M may source as best as possible similar equipment, especially if those formations are highly prized.
-If regiment technology is less specialized or less high tech, the M will be much less likely to supply those armaments. The Baronian rock throwers will not be receiving new rocks from the M, but may have the option to upgrade to real guns as supplies permit (which they won't).

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

I highly doubt the Munitorum owns the ships, but are the purview of the Navy or a Navy entity. If they are crewed by the Navy, they are Navy.

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:And yet, you've given very little counter evidence of your own, whereas Melissia has, several times. You can't dismiss evidence just because it counters your already fairly weak argument.

From Lexicanum -

Lexicanum wrote:The Munitorum has ultimate responsibility for the raising of new regiments, training of troops, provision of equipment and supplies, and transportation of troops and equipment to and from theatres of war. It is primarily a logistical organisation, like the Administratum, but while the Administratum deals with civilian logistics, the Munitorum deals with the logistics of war.

So, yeah, according to the Imperial Guard 3ed Codex, in which there is no counter evidence to ret-con or out date this, the Munitorum provides the standard equipment already sourced from the Uplifting Primer I believe. This is also confirmed in the most recent Imperial Guard Codex. The Munitorum provides everything, including transportation. Therefore, the Imperial Guard is largely standard. They have to be if the Imperium wants to keep them equipped on such a scale.

The Navy provides the transportation. Thats been canon since 2nd Ed to avoid another Heresy. The Ministorum requisitions the transport and coordinates.

The Navy doesn't 'provide the transportation'. They operate and crew the transports, which are Munitorum conveyers.

Then of course, the Navy also operates the warships.

I highly doubt the Munitorum owns the ships, but are the purview of the Navy or a Navy entity. If they are crewed by the Navy, they are Navy.

They're called "conveyance transports", and are staffed almost entirely by Munitorum--excepting the actual bridge crew and a security contingent, who are Navy.

They seemingly fall into a grey area where they're recognized as Munitorum in organizational charts, but since the Munitorum is part of the Guard--can't be entirely operated by the Munitorum.

Exactly, hence my point. The M (I can't type that to save my life) can't control both the Guard and its transport, as it violates the Post Heresy doctrine.

There should be no issue with the M being able to schedule transport of munitions and troops, as long as final control is the Imperium Navy.

This is based on:
*Post Heresy strictures that a regiment can't transport itself.
*Tangentially how the British operate (which is what this is really based on). The British merchant marine transports troops, nad falls lossely under the Navy in wartime (not sure if completely separate in peacetime).

At the end of the Day its a quibble point and is not relevant to the Guard themselves.

Melissia, cool down the rhetoric. There's really no reason to get so worked about about someone being wrong about something on the internet.

Thank you.

Tanith do indeed have their own locally made lasguns: Nalwood pattern (it even causes logistical problems with ammunition). Just like Steel Legion uses Armaggedon pattern lasguns and autoguns, Cadians have Cadian pattern and Vostryans definately make their own guns too.
The Munitorium demands a certain number of regiments get raised but its up to the world itself to make them. That's why every planet has a different uniform and a hundred other variations.

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:I think you guys are overthinking and overanalyzing this quite a bit. The Imperial Guard is inconsistant, as proven by the fluff being inconsistant with itself.

Actually the Imperial Guard IS consistent.

You are absolutely right.
What exactly are you debating? OF COURSE they are gonna be equipped to a certain level. That level, however, fluxtuates depending on the world in which the regiment is raised, the forge world producing the goods, logistical availibility, etc. Its a BIG galaxy.

DEUS VULT wrote:What exactly are you debating? OF COURSE they are gonna be equipped to a certain level.

Exactly, but the problem is people claim that the Imperium provides regiments with essentially nothing, which is false.

DEUS VULT - thanks much for that picture, very cool!

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

No, they're not. They just SEEM that way cause every other army is so friggin' dangerous that the Guardsmen seem that way. Look at the Sabbat Crusade 95% of the fighting was being done by Guardsmen and Marines of either the loyalist or Chaos variety are extremely rare.

We get the idea the all the IG does is die until the Marines show up because all the stories are ones where the Marines are the main characters, and thus need an excuse to show up. Read things that focus on the IG, and you'll see how dangerous they really are.



As for the debate, if we look at this map of the Imperial Government, we see that both the IG and the Imperial Navy are under the Adeptus Terra and the Administratum, however they are seperate. Since the Departmento Munitorum is described as the logistical backbone of the IG, I feel like the truth of the matter is the Munitorum is seperate from the Imperial Navy. Remember, not every transport ship requisitioned will be an Imperial Navy vessel. IIRC there is fluff that says the vast majority of ships in the Imperium are under charter control, so I imagine the Munitorum would call on old favors with whoever holds the charter to arrange for transport.

Of course the Imperial Navy would provide the escort, but I don't think they'd provide the transport in and of itself. The transport comes from other sources.

Melissia wrote:

DEUS VULT wrote:What exactly are you debating? OF COURSE they are gonna be equipped to a certain level.

Exactly, but the problem is people claim that the Imperium provides regiments with essentially nothing, which is false.

Ok, I think were of a same mind then. My contention is what a Guardsman SHOULD be issued, is rarely what they ARE issued. Also, the equipment issued to the PDF is entirely dependent on how much the planetary governor is willing to spend on them, so in theory they can be just as well equipped if not better than an IG regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:DEUS VULT - thanks much for that picture, very cool!

Thanks! I got a kick out of it too!

This thread is 5 pages long because some idiots here believe that Guard is nothing more than expandable guys with no sense for tactics and with morale so low that they disperse when they see 1 Ork.

If that man where alive in 41'st millennial the Commissars would cut off their balls and make them eat them, but not before they stab them with their swords in their stomachs and make them cry....

They are just like those Tau fans claiming that Tau have billions of Fire Warriors and Millions of battle suits... No matter their planet have only slightly more than 100 worlds and only 26 of them are heavy populated...

Guard is an regular army, better trained and armed than today military. The reason they are losing that many men is because their enemies are super humans in almost indestructible armor, monsters that eat planets and things that pour from another dimension and who are making men to lose their minds, not to mention they then fight many uprising alien empires, tyrants and so on...

Like I said earlier, Ranger role in Imperial Guard might have Veterans or Stormtroopers. Guard is in general advancing standard military force. AS for equipment it is provided by the world of origin but at Munitorium's standard. Or the world simply buy equipment from Munitorium and equip it's men ( like many worlds around Cadia having Cadian equipment ).

Any other questions?

Yeah.

Are you my mommy?




Jokes aside, the standard Imperial Guard kit does seem to vary a bit, but there's severla things that are consistent-- medical supplies, a light source able to be attached to the gun, grenades, a combat weapon preferably taht can be attached as a bayonet to the primary weapon, and so on.

It's not just "a flashlight, a thick tee-shirt, and the IIUP" as many people would claim...

Melissia wrote:Yeah.

Are you my mommy?




Jokes aside, the standard Imperial Guard kit does seem to vary a bit, but there's severla things that are consistent-- medical supplies, a light source able to be attached to the gun, grenades, a combat weapon preferably taht can be attached as a bayonet to the primary weapon, and so on.

It's not just "a flashlight, a thick tee-shirt, and the IIUP" as many people would claim...

Except for the skultakers and Crapachans of course.

Melissia wrote:Yeah.

Are you my mommy?

Jokes aside, the standard Imperial Guard kit does seem to vary a bit, but there's severla things that are consistent-- medical supplies, a light source able to be attached to the gun, grenades, a combat weapon preferably that can be attached as a bayonet to the primary weapon, and so on.

It's not just "a flashlight, a thick tee-shirt, and the IIUP" as many people would claim...

No-one understand that Guardsman are professional solders, but again many people doesn't know what real army is...

Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yeah.

Are you my mommy?




Jokes aside, the standard Imperial Guard kit does seem to vary a bit, but there's severla things that are consistent-- medical supplies, a light source able to be attached to the gun, grenades, a combat weapon preferably taht can be attached as a bayonet to the primary weapon, and so on.

It's not just "a flashlight, a thick tee-shirt, and the IIUP" as many people would claim...

... and Crapachans of course.

Thems fightin words!

He won't be saying that when some crazed bandana wearing maniac jumps from his small window-sill plant

Harriticus wrote:PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

The differences between IG and PDF are being overexagerated. It very much like the US Army and The National Guard. Those two groups could go on and on about the differnces they know about but from your average Iraqi's POV still getting shot by M16s by guys in Kevlar.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Harriticus wrote:PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

The size, equipment and maintenance of the PDF is under the jurisdiction of the Planetary Governor and how much funding he wants to allocate to them.
Also, thousand year old canteens? no thanks.

Kilkrazy wrote:If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

The vast majority of PDFs don't see action until either some heretical cult suddenly ends up controlling half a city or an ork's hulk happens to come wandering through the system. Additionally, proper training puts wear and tear on equipment. You need to pay ammunition costs (considerably reduced for las weapons due to the easy recharge feature of the power packs, but still a factor for weapons that use rockets or projectiles), maintain large enough training yards for all of the troops to use, replace weapons and equipment that wears out during training, etc... There are a lot of real world militaries that barely train their troops due to the cost and expense (all those bullets being "wasted" on inanimate targets cost money). On a planet that hasn't seen conflict in over a century and isn't likely to see any during the subsequent century, there's going to be a lot of pressure to "cut costs" by performing very little in the way of training and maneuvers.

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

Kilkrazy wrote:

Harriticus wrote:PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Why would spending a lot of time on ships mean you're unable to train? They don't get put into stasis like the Marines in Halo or Aliens. They're awake the entire time. The majority of Guard transport ships have training areas, they have enough open space for drills, etc. The Ghosts books make a point of that.

Black Sky Dead Sun also features a part of the ship where Guardsmen are training during Warp transit.

Wardragoon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

15 hours had them doing crappy fake drills clearing paintlines on the hangar floor to represent rooms and such. In the words of the immortal bard: "You will receive the standard substandard training."

I'd imagine shipboard training would be mostly calisthenics. Not that much room for anything else.

Frazzled wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

15 hours had them doing crappy fake drills clearing paintlines on the hangar floor to represent rooms and such. In the words of the immortal bard: "You will receive the standard substandard training."

I'd imagine shipboard training would be mostly calisthenics. Not that much room for anything else.

There's room for like a whole parade ground. These ships are quite massive.

Frazzled wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

15 hours had them doing crappy fake drills clearing paintlines on the hangar floor to represent rooms and such. In the words of the immortal bard: "You will receive the standard substandard training."

I'd imagine shipboard training would be mostly calisthenics. Not that much room for anything else.

Talk to some Marines who have been on a float; you'd be surprised what can get done in limited space. Not to mention a lot of the ships in 40k are OMFGHUUUUUUUUUUGE!

I seem to recall they were doing a full MOUT(military operation in urban terrain iirc) drill in that novel I was reading

Frazzled wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

15 hours had them doing crappy fake drills clearing paintlines on the hangar floor to represent rooms and such. In the words of the immortal bard: "You will receive the standard substandard training."

I'd imagine shipboard training would be mostly calisthenics. Not that much room for anything else.

15 Hours also had a regiment that was just founded(seriously. The only person with combat experience was a single NCO who'd been Guard previously to mustering out on the planet it was raised from) and supposed to be used to put down a minor heretical cult.

Standard substandard training is all they'd need in that case.

There are plenty of things you can do while on a ship.

Regular physical exercise is one thing (and pretty much required if the troops are going to be in shape when you arrive). Hand to hand training is another, and probably takes place in the same area as the regular physical exercise. Lasgun practice probably takes place with guns set to low power. The only thing that you might not be able to do is fire heavy weapons and drive vehicles around - though there might be simulators that you can use for the vehicle crews.

And they also did plenty of drills in transit in the Cain novels, too.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

Well if I recall correctly they actually do train on the ships, it seems to me that in the Space Wolf series they ran drills on ship, but I may have it confused with the ultramarine series, who knows with all the similarities in SM novels

15 hours had them doing crappy fake drills clearing paintlines on the hangar floor to represent rooms and such. In the words of the immortal bard: "You will receive the standard substandard training."

I'd imagine shipboard training would be mostly calisthenics. Not that much room for anything else.

There's room for like a whole parade ground. These ships are quite massive.

I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Harriticus wrote:PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

I disagree with all of this. There are examples in the fluff that contradict these statements. In Titanicus for example, the PDF are shown to receive only a bare minimum of training, they literally are weekend warriors. One weekend a month, two weeks in the summer (US National Guard training) is nowhere near comparable to the training that a standing army (US Army/Marines) receive. In fact, in Titanicus, it is shown that the PDF is called up in stages. There is the first stage which consists of a handful of regular, full time troopers (a large part of them are officers, administrators, etc. rather than direct action forces). There is a second stage which consists of the rest of the volunteer force (the weekend warriors) who go about their lives as normal until needed for service. And then the third stage which is conscription of every able bodied candidate. In Dead Men Walking a similar system is seen. More importantly, Dead Men Walking shows us that there is a big difference in the skill level of the PDF vs. the Guardsmen of the DKoK. Perhaps this analogy is a bit unfair, since it is implied that the DKoK are a fairly elite group of guardsmen, even as far as other guardsmen are concerned, but regardless the PDF are continually shown to be substandard compared to the DKoK, to the point that the DKoK take over training of conscripted recruits because they find the PDF training inadequate. The most experienced officer in the entire PDF happens to be the planetary Governor (rather than the PDFs commanding officer (or his replacement)), who was a former Guard officer. The PDF are also shown to be poorly equipped, armed only with Lasguns and basic equipment/vehicles, lacking heavier equipment such as hellguns (one of the PDF guys mentions that the last time he had held one or even seen one was during his basic training), meltaguns, artillery, etc. and even then they barely have enough of the basic equipment to arm new recruits. Its also mentioned that the pattern of lasgun utilized by the Krieg troopers is more powerful than the one issued to the PDF, further implying that not all things are equal and that the Guard are better off than PDF.

As for training in transit, in Dead Men Walking they mention that the transport ship has its own firing range on board, as well as other training facilities and spaces, including gyms, etc. and that the DKoK cleared out extra space such as hangars/landing bays, cargo holds, etc. for additional space to run drills in (because all four regiments decided to run drills instead of going on leave). The ship at the time was carrying roughly 30,000 guardsmen in 4 regiments, plus 4 dropships (implied to be able to carry one regiment each) capable of ferrying the troops planetside, plus all their equipment, including vehicles (Gorgons, Centaurs, Trojans, Medusa's and Earthshakers, and at least one Termite are all mentioned being used in the novel). Clearly Frazzleds analysis that they would use the extra space for more troops is incorrect. The time qualifier seems to be meaningless as well, as the DKoK in the novel had just reported from a warzone, and at the end of the book they report to a new warzone using the same vessel.

Frazzled wrote:I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

For a two day trip, sure go ahead and cram everyone in.

For a longer trip, no. Your troops *must* have areas in which to perform physical exercise, at bare minimum. Otherwise their muscles will have atrophied during the voyage. After a particularly long trip like that, they'll be lucky to make it off the shuttle carrying their full kit. An actual march would be out of the question.

Cramming troops into passenger liners only works when the trip is either extremely short or you know for a fact that they're not going to see any action when they arrive at their destination.

Eumerin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

For a two day trip, sure go ahead and cram everyone in.

For a longer trip, no. Your troops *must* have areas in which to perform physical exercise, at bare minimum. Otherwise their muscles will have atrophied during the voyage. After a particularly long trip like that, they'll be lucky to make it off the shuttle carrying their full kit. An actual march would be out of the question.

Cramming troops into passenger liners only works when the trip is either extremely short or you know for a fact that they're not going to see any action when they arrive at their destination.

Or they need to get troops to the line ASAP and thats the only ship thats available, note that marines were thrown on cruise liners during ww2 due to lack of transports

Eumerin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

For a two day trip, sure go ahead and cram everyone in.

For a longer trip, no. Your troops *must* have areas in which to perform physical exercise, at bare minimum. Otherwise their muscles will have atrophied during the voyage. After a particularly long trip like that, they'll be lucky to make it off the shuttle carrying their full kit. An actual march would be out of the question.

Cramming troops into passenger liners only works when the trip is either extremely short or you know for a fact that they're not going to see any action when they arrive at their destination.

Hey if its good enough for the redcoats...
Again, room needed for calisthenics is not substantial.
Having said that if there are reliable fluff examples then I will yield the argument.

Frazzled wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

For a two day trip, sure go ahead and cram everyone in.

For a longer trip, no. Your troops *must* have areas in which to perform physical exercise, at bare minimum. Otherwise their muscles will have atrophied during the voyage. After a particularly long trip like that, they'll be lucky to make it off the shuttle carrying their full kit. An actual march would be out of the question.

Cramming troops into passenger liners only works when the trip is either extremely short or you know for a fact that they're not going to see any action when they arrive at their destination.

Hey if its good enough for the redcoats...
Again, room needed for calisthenics is not substantial.
Having said that if there are reliable fluff examples then I will yield the argument.

Uhh I know either the 4th ultramarines or one of the first 3 Space wolves says something about IG practicing in a fake town built inside a hangar

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Harriticus wrote:PDF's are standing armies, there's little "militia" about them, they have uniforms, tanks, artillery, aircraft, and so on. The key difference between them and the IG is that the PDF is under the control of the planetary governor, is less trained, has its best troops donated to the IG, and generally operates older equipment.

If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

There's also no reason for the PDF to have older equipment, since all Imperial equipment is thousands of years old anyway.

I disagree with all of this. There are examples in the fluff that contradict these statements. In Titanicus for example, the PDF are shown to receive only a bare minimum of training, they literally are weekend warriors. One weekend a month, two weeks in the summer (US National Guard training) is nowhere near comparable to the training that a standing army (US Army/Marines) receive. In fact, in Titanicus, it is shown that the PDF is called up in stages. There is the first stage which consists of a handful of regular, full time troopers (a large part of them are officers, administrators, etc. rather than direct action forces). There is a second stage which consists of the rest of the volunteer force (the weekend warriors) who go about their lives as normal until needed for service. And then the third stage which is conscription of every able bodied candidate. In Dead Men Walking a similar system is seen. More importantly, Dead Men Walking shows us that there is a big difference in the skill level of the PDF vs. the Guardsmen of the DKoK. Perhaps this analogy is a bit unfair, since it is implied that the DKoK are a fairly elite group of guardsmen, even as far as other guardsmen are concerned, but regardless the PDF are continually shown to be substandard compared to the DKoK, to the point that the DKoK take over training of conscripted recruits because they find the PDF training inadequate. The most experienced officer in the entire PDF happens to be the planetary Governor (rather than the PDFs commanding officer (or his replacement)), who was a former Guard officer. The PDF are also shown to be poorly equipped, armed only with Lasguns and basic equipment/vehicles, lacking heavier equipment such as hellguns (one of the PDF guys mentions that the last time he had held one or even seen one was during his basic training), meltaguns, artillery, etc. and even then they barely have enough of the basic equipment to arm new recruits. Its also mentioned that the pattern of lasgun utilized by the Krieg troopers is more powerful than the one issued to the PDF, further implying that not all things are equal and that the Guard are better off than PDF.

As for training in transit, in Dead Men Walking they mention that the transport ship has its own firing range on board, as well as other training facilities and spaces, including gyms, etc. and that the DKoK cleared out extra space such as hangars/landing bays, cargo holds, etc. for additional space to run drills in (because all four regiments decided to run drills instead of going on leave). The ship at the time was carrying roughly 30,000 guardsmen in 4 regiments, plus 4 dropships (implied to be able to carry one regiment each) capable of ferrying the troops planetside, plus all their equipment, including vehicles (Gorgons, Centaurs, Trojans, Medusa's and Earthshakers, and at least one Termite are all mentioned being used in the novel). Clearly Frazzleds analysis that they would use the extra space for more troops is incorrect. The time qualifier seems to be meaningless as well, as the DKoK in the novel had just reported from a warzone, and at the end of the book they report to a new warzone using the same vessel.

Right but like you said there's various tiers of emergencey. That first tier is professional soldiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I don't buy the massive space concept. Ships are paying for space. They'd put more troops or equipment there, especially on longer trips.

For a two day trip, sure go ahead and cram everyone in.

For a longer trip, no. Your troops *must* have areas in which to perform physical exercise, at bare minimum. Otherwise their muscles will have atrophied during the voyage. After a particularly long trip like that, they'll be lucky to make it off the shuttle carrying their full kit. An actual march would be out of the question.

Cramming troops into passenger liners only works when the trip is either extremely short or you know for a fact that they're not going to see any action when they arrive at their destination.

Hey if its good enough for the redcoats...
Again, room needed for calisthenics is not substantial.
Having said that if there are reliable fluff examples then I will yield the argument.

What? We gave you like an entire page of examples. There's room for firing ranges at the very least.

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Don't know much about the IG, do you?
IG are to the Space Marines what a sledgehammer is to a surgeon's knife. If you want a quick and decisive end to something, you send in the SM. If, on the other hand, you want your enemy crushed into the dirt and mangled beyond recognition by millions of bootprints, then you plump for the IG.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Don't know much about the IG, do you?
IG are to the Space Marines what a sledgehammer is to a surgeon's knife. If you want a quick and decisive end to something, you send in the SM. If, on the other hand, you want your enemy crushed into the dirt and mangled beyond recognition by millions of bootprints, then you plump for the IG.

Actually I may have a better analogy, the IG is a shield that you can either bludgeon Xenos with and also protect the vast majority of Imperial investments, wherein the SM are like the short sword, they thrust in accurately and really kill things quickly.




Edit: silly me I called Xenos people

Eumerin wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

The vast majority of PDFs don't see action until either some heretical cult suddenly ends up controlling half a city or an ork's hulk happens to come wandering through the system. Additionally, proper training puts wear and tear on equipment. You need to pay ammunition costs (considerably reduced for las weapons due to the easy recharge feature of the power packs, but still a factor for weapons that use rockets or projectiles), maintain large enough training yards for all of the troops to use, replace weapons and equipment that wears out during training, etc... There are a lot of real world militaries that barely train their troops due to the cost and expense (all those bullets being "wasted" on inanimate targets cost money). On a planet that hasn't seen conflict in over a century and isn't likely to see any during the subsequent century, there's going to be a lot of pressure to "cut costs" by performing very little in the way of training and maneuvers.

I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If the PDF is a standing army there is no reason for it to be less trained than the IG, which is also a standing army that spends a lot of time on ships unable to train.

The vast majority of PDFs don't see action until either some heretical cult suddenly ends up controlling half a city or an ork's hulk happens to come wandering through the system. Additionally, proper training puts wear and tear on equipment. You need to pay ammunition costs (considerably reduced for las weapons due to the easy recharge feature of the power packs, but still a factor for weapons that use rockets or projectiles), maintain large enough training yards for all of the troops to use, replace weapons and equipment that wears out during training, etc... There are a lot of real world militaries that barely train their troops due to the cost and expense (all those bullets being "wasted" on inanimate targets cost money). On a planet that hasn't seen conflict in over a century and isn't likely to see any during the subsequent century, there's going to be a lot of pressure to "cut costs" by performing very little in the way of training and maneuvers.

I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

In Titanicus they have full time PDF and weekend warrior reserve PDF. I'm not a National Guard expert but don't they have something similiar?

Kilkrazy wrote:I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

Powerpacks probably wear out over time. It's a fraction of the cost of other forms of ammunition, but it still exists.

And there are the other expenses that I mentioned. Ammo isn't the only thing that you need to pay for.

"Superior PDF guys" in many cases no doubt become superior about five minutes after the Imperial Governor realizes that he has a troop tithe coming due in the next six months. At that point, I suspect that many worlds pick the units that they plan to tithe and engage in a frenzied training stretch in order to quickly get the units up to the expected level of IG performance. After all, people in high places might get concerned if the troops you're tithing aren't up to the expected level...

Wardragoon wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Don't know much about the IG, do you?
IG are to the Space Marines what a sledgehammer is to a surgeon's knife. If you want a quick and decisive end to something, you send in the SM. If, on the other hand, you want your enemy crushed into the dirt and mangled beyond recognition by millions of bootprints, then you plump for the IG.

Actually I may have a better analogy, the IG is a shield that you can either bludgeon Xenos with and also protect the vast majority of Imperial investments, wherein the SM are like the short sword, they thrust in accurately and really kill things quickly.




Edit: silly me I called Xenos people

And of course there's an even more apt comparison.

*If you want someone to take some recruiting wall posters and scare a few pig farmers call the marines.
*If you want to conquer planets, you call the Guard.

Well, considering that the training of the IG falls under the auspices of the Departmento Munitorium (sp?), I would say its more likely that the Governor hands over control of the tithed forces to the DM, who then oversee their training planetside before shipping them off to whatever warzone they are destined for.

As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Eumerin wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

Powerpacks probably wear out over time. It's a fraction of the cost of other forms of ammunition, but it still exists.

And there are the other expenses that I mentioned. Ammo isn't the only thing that you need to pay for.

"Superior PDF guys" in many cases no doubt become superior about five minutes after the Imperial Governor realizes that he has a troop tithe coming due in the next six months. At that point, I suspect that many worlds pick the units that they plan to tithe and engage in a frenzied training stretch in order to quickly get the units up to the expected level of IG performance. After all, people in high places might get concerned if the troops you're tithing aren't up to the expected level...

Yes, once your in the PDF don't be surprised to find yourself suddenly in the IG. It's not the Texas Air National Guard.


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chaos0xomega wrote:Well, considering that the training of the IG falls under the auspices of the Departmento Munitorium (sp?), I would say its more likely that the Governor hands over control of the tithed forces to the DM, who then oversee their training planetside before shipping them off to whatever warzone they are destined for.

As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

DKoK powerpacks are 25 shots which is actually the least in the Galaxy.

chaos0xomega wrote:As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Leaving a powerpack out in the sun is considered to the "standard" method of recharging a power pack in the field. Over the course of several hours, it will completely replenish the energy used to fire the weapon. Throwing a pack into a campfire will also work if needed and will do so much faster than sunlight will, but it permanently reduces the maximum charge that a pack is capable of holding. So that should only be done in an emergency or if no other method is available.

Recharging stations are no doubt handy to use when available, but the energy needs to come from somewhere. And someone needs to plug and unplug all of the packs from the charging station (not a problem when there are only one or two packs; it's a different matter when you need to recharge 500 power packs...). Spreading them out in the open to collect sunlight is fairly simple and the energy is guaranteed to be 100% free.

Chimeras have recharging stations that run as long as the Chimera has fuel to run so that its alternator can recharge its battery. So you can imagine a mechanized squad does this with spent packs while they're on the move.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rogueyopants wrote:IG are bullet shield, low moral, no high quality of thinking, kinda like Gretchin, little bit better though. All there meant to do is hold out for days, weeks, or even months till the SM arrive and OP everything to shiii!, then the Orks Arrive and everything go's to shiii....

Don't know much about the IG, do you?
IG are to the Space Marines what a sledgehammer is to a surgeon's knife. If you want a quick and decisive end to something, you send in the SM. If, on the other hand, you want your enemy crushed into the dirt and mangled beyond recognition by millions of bootprints, then you plump for the IG.

I think a more apt analogy would be a tank compared to a precision jeweler's hammer, since that's roughly the difference in strength between the Guard and Marines, respectively.

Naturally the Navy in this analogy is a battleship.

Eumerin wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

Powerpacks probably wear out over time. It's a fraction of the cost of other forms of ammunition, but it still exists.

And there are the other expenses that I mentioned. Ammo isn't the only thing that you need to pay for.

"Superior PDF guys" in many cases no doubt become superior about five minutes after the Imperial Governor realizes that he has a troop tithe coming due in the next six months. At that point, I suspect that many worlds pick the units that they plan to tithe and engage in a frenzied training stretch in order to quickly get the units up to the expected level of IG performance. After all, people in high places might get concerned if the troops you're tithing aren't up to the expected level...

The only way the various things the Guard codex says about the recruitment process can be internally reconciled is if it works something like "recruit ten times what you're being tithed for, and train for six months; the top ten percent of the recruits go to the IG, and receive a further six months of training before deployment; the other 90% go to local reserve militias or the local arbites".

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The only way the various things the Guard codex says about the recruitment process can be internally reconciled is if it works something like "recruit ten times what you're being tithed for, and train for six months; the top ten percent of the recruits go to the IG, and receive a further six months of training before deployment; the other 90% go to local reserve militias or the local arbites".

I don't think it works that way. My impression has always been that the tithed regiments were either newly levied units or taken from existing PDF units (depending on planetary practice). The tithed units would then be equipped to Departmento standards/requirements and trained/retrained by the DM before shipping out. I don't know where the "top ten percent" bit came from, but it seems more likely to me that the "top ten percent" would be a result of their enhanced DM based training rather than anything having to do with the recruit quality.

The alternative is that all recruits are tested (similar to the ASVAB, etc. in the US) to determine their potential, the top 10 percent of all applicants/conscripts/what have you are sent to the guard and the rest either inducted into the PDF or released from service (depending on planetary practice).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In Titanicus they have full time PDF and weekend warrior reserve PDF. I'm not a National Guard expert but don't they have something similiar?

Yeah, it's called "The Active reserve". For example, at Air National Guard facilities there are personnel who act as active personnel 24/7, 365 days a year.

IIRC IG tithes specify that the best chunk of the PDF has to be sent to the IG. If the South Cowlick Agro-Collective sends bottom of the Barrel personnel to the IG the Munitorum rears its ugly head.

If it can be proven. A tricky governor might try to ship his bottom 10% off world. Keep the good stuff for himself.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:If it can be proven. A tricky governor might try to ship his bottom 10% off world. Keep the good stuff for himself.

While (no doubt) the Munitorum would rather have hard evidence of shens, if the problem is persistent for an extended period I doubt nothing would really hinder them from expressing their displeasure at the situation.

MountainSquid wrote:IIRC IG tithes specify that the best chunk of the PDF has to be sent to the IG. If the South Cowlick Agro-Collective sends bottom of the Barrel personnel to the IG the Munitorum rears its ugly head.

The inductees have to be up to a certain standard, but I don't think they have to come from the top 10% of the PDF.


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Frazzled wrote:
EDIT: Mind you we're dealing with multiple dex fluff and BL nonsense. To make some sense out of it, one could posit:
-the Ministorum draws the levies.
-The levies are made up of locals and equipment. Often this is pretty standardizes but not always.
-The M then feeds and provides the logistical tail.
-If technology for the regiument is near a standard level the M supplies them with standard level equipment sourced from a variety of locations, hence some variance.
-If regiment technology is specialized the M may source as best as possible similar equipment, especially if those formations are highly prized.
-If regiment technology is less specialized or less high tech, the M will be much less likely to supply those armaments. The Baronian rock throwers will not be receiving new rocks from the M, but may have the option to upgrade to real guns as supplies permit (which they won't).

Okay, I see where I went wrong. I was treating the Munitorium as completely seperate from the world on which the IG are recruited, I thought Mellissia was arguing that the Munitorium equips the inductees in a completely standard, galaxy-spanning, standardised manner.

So I may have been a little, just a teensy weensy bit wrong.

One book I read had recruits coming from a lottery system with jobs given to people with similar skills(ie, a veterinarian was trained as a medic).

As far as the PDF go they are closer to the National Guard of the universe(although in some cases they are as well trained and supplied as other IG regiments).

I guess we can say that not all IG are alike?

The codex explicitly states they're drawn from the top 10%.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:The codex explicitly states they're drawn from the top 10%.

Which one? Because the current codex only says that planetary governors are required to tithe one tenth of their overall fighting force.

Kilkrazy wrote:
I thought the point of a lasgun was that it didn't use ammo.

Where do all these well trained superior PDF guys come from who go to the IG?

It uses power-packs like battery. Depending on the strength of the shot fired it can be spent after 20 or 60 shots. But, the power-pack can be recharged in many numbers of ways. From throwing power-pack in campfire to sunlight.

And PDF training depends on how many is planetary Governor is investing in his troops. Some PDF are lightly trained and used only to hold the line until help arrives. Others can be tough as Cadians and have the ability to even push the enemy from the world. It all depends on how many is planet investing in it's defenses, training those men and a quiring good equipment.

Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

*Ahem*

Previous IG codex, page 16

codex wrote:
Laser technology is reliable and easy to replicate, and although the weapons are not the most powerful they are certainly the most trustworthy. A laser power pack will last for many shots and can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing its thermal cells to heat or light. In an emergency a pack can be recharged by placing it in a fire, although such treatment tends to shorten the life of the pack and increase the probability of it failing. Many experienced fighters prefer the lasgun over more powerful weapons for these very reasons.

The issue with the lasgun itself is that it fires lasers and has no kinetic energy. So if a guy was being charged by an Ork and shot the ork in the torso, it would hurt the ork but it wouldn't blow him backwards or anything unless the ork reacted to it of his own accord.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Why? Because you disagree with what is written in it? Doesn't work that way I'm afraid.


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halonachos wrote:*Ahem*

Previous IG codex, page 16

codex wrote:
Laser technology is reliable and easy to replicate, and although the weapons are not the most powerful they are certainly the most trustworthy. A laser power pack will last for many shots and can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing its thermal cells to heat or light. In an emergency a pack can be recharged by placing it in a fire, although such treatment tends to shorten the life of the pack and increase the probability of it failing. Many experienced fighters prefer the lasgun over more powerful weapons for these very reasons.

The issue with the lasgun itself is that it fires lasers and has no kinetic energy. So if a guy was being charged by an Ork and shot the ork in the torso, it would hurt the ork but it wouldn't blow him backwards or anything unless the ork reacted to it of his own accord.

The issue with the lasgun is that the Imperium has chosen a reliable mass producible weapon which is ideal for the billions of soldiers it needs to equip, whilst sacrificing it's power. There are various other examples of more powerful laser weaponry, it then tends to be more difficult to mass-produce and prone to faults. The lasgun on it's normal settings will burn a hole in an Ork there's no need to knock it back however. If the lasgun was ineffective against a regular Ork in that way the Imperium would be in a much worse state that it is now.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't canon.

Except that isn't from the IIUP, which is about as canon as it can get considering it was published by everyone who worked on the Imperial Guard 'Doctrines' Codex , released alongside of said Codex, and had the equipment layout handed down from Abnett(who was the only one really working on Guard organizational stuff at the time) and the folks who did Inquisitor.
For a long time now this fact has been true:
Some lasguns use adjustable fire settings. These cause them to expend more energy than others. In game terms, it wouldn't make much of a difference unless it was the entire squad doing it. It's considered bad fire discipline by the Guard to fiddle with the power settings because it makes the cells a bit unpredictable and can cause damage to the lasgun itself. So it's not often done.

Gaunt's Ghosts, Siege of Vraks, Dead Men Walking, et al have all talked about this.
The Vitrians in First & Only got lectured by Gaunt because their men were blowing through power cells at triple the rate the Ghosts were, simply because of the fact that they were firing on the highest power setting and killing unarmored cultists with a huge expenditure of resources.
In Dead Men Walking, the Krieg ramped up the power on their lasguns to the highest setting so they could actually stagger the Necrons ensuring the Meltagunners or Grenadiers with Hellguns could put them down.
Siege of Vraks makes a brief mention of the power cells carried by the troopers when assaulting positions and the fact that their lasguns are a unique pattern, etc.

There's a dozen sources that say a lasgun has 25-60 shots. If there is more than one that says it has 250 shots please illuminate me.

There's a dozen sources that say a lasgun has 25-60 shots at its 'nominal' power setting--which is a higher than basic power setting.

The 'basic' power setting would be what is used almost exclusively when fighting completely unarmored heretics and insurgents.

halonachos wrote:*Ahem*

Previous IG codex, page 16

codex wrote:
Laser technology is reliable and easy to replicate, and although the weapons are not the most powerful they are certainly the most trustworthy. A laser power pack will last for many shots and can be recharged from a standard power source or by exposing its thermal cells to heat or light. In an emergency a pack can be recharged by placing it in a fire, although such treatment tends to shorten the life of the pack and increase the probability of it failing. Many experienced fighters prefer the lasgun over more powerful weapons for these very reasons.

The issue with the lasgun itself is that it fires lasers and has no kinetic energy. So if a guy was being charged by an Ork and shot the ork in the torso, it would hurt the ork but it wouldn't blow him backwards or anything unless the ork reacted to it of his own accord.

An autogun wouldn't knock the ork back either, or else it would rip the arm off the person firing it...

Kanluwen wrote:There's a dozen sources that say a lasgun has 25-60 shots at its 'nominal' power setting--which is a higher than basic power setting.

The 'basic' power setting would be what is used almost exclusively when fighting completely unarmored heretics and insurgents.

Kriegers are at max power with 25 shots. Elysians are at minimum power with about 55 shots. It's not like we're going to 70 shots here. That I could believe is some sort of rare power setting only available on some patterns but people are throwing down 250-300 rounds based on wait is most likely an error in one book.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Yes it is. It's not the just the IIUP that says this.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Yes it is. It's not the just the IIUP that says this.

Go on.

In the Cain novels, it is apparent that on normal settings, one goes through quite a damned few shots before one has to replace the weapon. Same with the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. hell, even if you assume that the Vitrians were using completely max settings similar to that of the Krieg, then the standard lasgun still has seventy five shots at least on nominal settings, as they were going through ammunition three times as fast as the Ghosts were. and the Ghosts themselves were not necessarily using weaker settings.

Dark Heresy's ruleset is designed as a balance (it has to be balanced against autoguns and stub weapons, because otherwise the lasgun would be a nobrainer, thus its full auto is removed and it has more limited ammunition than in the lore), not as a perfect fluff representation., and it still has sixty shots in it.

Melissia wrote:In the Cain novels, it is apparent that on normal settings, one goes through quite a damned few shots before one has to replace the weapon. Same with the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. hell, even if you assume that the Vitrians were using completely max settings similar to that of the Krieg, then the standard lasgun still has seventy five shots at least on nominal settings, as they were going through ammunition three times as fast as the Ghosts were. and the Ghosts themselves were not necessarily using weaker settings.

Those aren't numbers. It can be assumed they were using 50 round clips as per the BRB.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:In the Cain novels, it is apparent that on normal settings, one goes through quite a damned few shots before one has to replace the weapon. Same with the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. hell, even if you assume that the Vitrians were using completely max settings similar to that of the Krieg, then the standard lasgun still has seventy five shots at least on nominal settings, as they were going through ammunition three times as fast as the Ghosts were. and the Ghosts themselves were not necessarily using weaker settings.

Those aren't numbers. It can be assumed they were using 50 round clips as per the BRB.

No it can't, as lasguns don't use clips. For that matter, neither do autoguns.

The 40k core rulebook has lots of incorrect information about non-marine factions.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's a dozen sources that say a lasgun has 25-60 shots at its 'nominal' power setting--which is a higher than basic power setting.

The 'basic' power setting would be what is used almost exclusively when fighting completely unarmored heretics and insurgents.

Kriegers are at max power with 25 shots. Elysians are at minimum power with about 55 shots. It's not like we're going to 70 shots here. That I could believe is some sort of rare power setting only available on some patterns but people are throwing down 250-300 rounds based on wait is most likely an error in one book.

Elysians aren't at minimum power with 'about 55 shots'. They're at nominal, combat strength power with about 55 shots. The only difference is that Elysian lasguns have no automatic fire setting on their weapons, they have single shot 'to conserve ammunition and encourage fire discipline'.

The magical 'nominal' setting which is above the basic point seems to be 60 shots depending on the regiment/lasgun pattern.

That puts it at roughly a hundred shots at 'basic' or even higher on 'low' power. I don't know if Melissia is saying 250-300 rounds and forgetting that the sources saying that are referring to the overall ammunition carried by a Guardsman(which is a clip in the gun and another 2-3 reloads).

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:In the Cain novels, it is apparent that on normal settings, one goes through quite a damned few shots before one has to replace the weapon. Same with the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. hell, even if you assume that the Vitrians were using completely max settings similar to that of the Krieg, then the standard lasgun still has seventy five shots at least on nominal settings, as they were going through ammunition three times as fast as the Ghosts were. and the Ghosts themselves were not necessarily using weaker settings.

Those aren't numbers. It can be assumed they were using 50 round clips as per the BRB.

No it can't, as lasguns don't use clips. For that matter, neither do autoguns.

The 40k core rulebook has lots of incorrect information about non-marine factions.

Way to use semantics to not make a point.

Lets go with Dark Heresy then. What does it say for a standard power cell?

... I already answered that.

Dark Heresy's lasguns have 60 shots per charge pack. They also don't have full auto, which we know lasguns have. The reason for this is because Dark Heresy is a roleplaying game and must balance its weapons out so all of them are reasonable choices, instead of making lasguns the nobrainer choice.

My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

You mean 22 books, counting all of the Gaunt's Ghosts, the Cain books, and the IIUP.

So basically all of the dedicated Guard fluff books.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

You mean 22 books, counting all of the Gaunt's Ghosts, the Cain books, and the IIUP.

So basically all of the dedicated Guard fluff books.

The Gaunt books never say that. And unless you can provide a number neither do the Cain ones. What happened is you read the IIUP and it corrupted your imagination while reading the others.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

You mean 22 books, counting all of the Gaunt's Ghosts, the Cain books, and the IIUP.

So basically all of the dedicated Guard fluff books.

The Gaunt books never say that. And unless you can provide a number neither do the Cain ones. What happened is you read the IIUP and it corrupted your imagination while reading the others.

Bare minimum, the Gaunt's Ghosts lasguns have seventy five shots on normal settings. This can be inferred from the Krieg fluff combined with the comments on the Vitrian's fire modes.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

You mean 22 books, counting all of the Gaunt's Ghosts, the Cain books, and the IIUP.

So basically all of the dedicated Guard fluff books.

The Gaunt books never say that. And unless you can provide a number neither do the Cain ones. What happened is you read the IIUP and it corrupted your imagination while reading the others.

Bare minimum, the Gaunt's Ghosts lasguns have seventy five shots on normal settings.

That falls into the realm of "not crazy" but I would have to ask how you came to that conclusion.

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

I'd say guardsmen are actually the marines of the imperium. Pdf's would be regular army, for sure.

You have to remember that the Guard is a deployable force, not a stationary or 'presence' force. They come to get the job done, get out, and get to another battle. PDFs just protect their local systems, so yeah, army, or maybe even coasties

Krieg guns have 25 shots at absolute maximum settings. The Vitrians were using a high power setting (not necessarily described as maximal), and were going through charge packs three times as fast as the Ghosts.


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Samus_aran115 wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

I'd say guardsmen are actually the marines of the imperium. Pdf's would be regular army, for sure.

You have to remember that the Guard is a deployable force, not a stationary or 'presence' force. They come to get the job done, get out, and get to another battle. PDFs just protect their local systems, so yeah, army, or maybe even coasties

Coast Guard would be equivalent ot the SDF.

SDF = System Defense Forces. SDF is equivalent to the Imperial Navy how the PDF is equivalent to the Imperial Guard.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

I'd say guardsmen are actually the marines of the imperium. Pdf's would be regular army, for sure.

You have to remember that the Guard is a deployable force, not a stationary or 'presence' force. They come to get the job done, get out, and get to another battle. PDFs just protect their local systems, so yeah, army, or maybe even coasties

I think that is a fairly decent analogy. Thats actually the vibe I got about the DKoK (hard to believe) while reading parts of Dead Men Walking. Although let us be clear that the USMC is not necessarily a superior combat force to the US Army. There is the perspective of this in the general public. Actual combat data shows there to be no real difference between an average platoon of marines and soldiers in terms of battlefield results.

However, there IS, on average, a difference between PDF and Guard. Sure, it's exaggerated at times, just like the differences between an Astartes and a human are exaggerated, but it's still there.

Melissia wrote:Krieg guns have 25 shots at absolute maximum settings. The Vitrians were using a high power setting (not necessarily described as maximal), and were going through charge packs three times as fast as the Ghosts.

Krieg pattern only has one setting "11".

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.
You mentioned that DH doesn't say that lasguns have full-auto but we know they do. That is somewhat true. We know that some patterns are. We know Nalwood are and I'm sure Cadian are too but as you've argued the IG do have better stuff. There are many, many patterns that don't have full-auto. Krieg and Elysian definately don't. In fact, I would guess the majority of Lasguns in the galaxy (which keep in mind incluldes non-IG stuff) don't actually have a full-auto.
Anyways, the point of that was that the Tanith Lasgun is already pretty kick-ass for having full-auto and it's reasonable to assume their power cell, which we know is different, may be of a superior make despite that not being specifically declared. Not a hot-shot pack by any means but not standard issue either.

As I said 70 rounds is reasonble to me anyway on minimal setting so your 75 rounds for specialized kit seems reasonable too. My point is 250 rounds is not. You couldn't crack a clay pidgeon with that, let alone an evil heretic pidgeon.

High (not full) power is enough to cut through power armor and decapitate a Marine. I hardly think that normal power settings would have any problems dealing with pottery.

And I'm past Necropolis by now.

What are you talking about? A Lasgun on max power is AP "-".

Hellguns/Hotshots are a whole other thing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you talking about? A Lasgun on max power is AP "-".

Hellguns/Hotshots are a whole other thing.

First Gaunt book. Normal settings just clanged against the armor, but the vitrian who switched his gun back to high power decapitated the marine.

Hellguns are just exceptionally powerful and high powered lasguns, after all. In fact, all las technology works in basically the same way, with the main difference being that heavier guns can handle more heat in their barrels (a lasgun using hotshot packs at max power is gonna have to replace its barrel far more often than a hellgun using the same ammo, for example).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Krieg guns have 25 shots at absolute maximum settings. The Vitrians were using a high power setting (not necessarily described as maximal), and were going through charge packs three times as fast as the Ghosts.

Krieg pattern only has one setting "11".

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.
You mentioned that DH doesn't say that lasguns have full-auto but we know they do. That is somewhat true. We know that some patterns are. We know Nalwood are and I'm sure Cadian are too but as you've argued the IG do have better stuff. There are many, many patterns that don't have full-auto. Krieg and Elysian definately don't.

Actually, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the Krieg lasguns in Dead Men Walking do have full auto setting (the alternative is that the PDF lasguns in Dead Men Walking have full auto and I'm confusing the two, but I seem to remember DK going full auto on the Necrons at some point).

Yes, but like I said before a grot derringer can kill a Terminator because $#!+ happens but I wouldn't classify a lasgun as "Armour Piercing."

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but like I said before a grot derringer can kill a Terminator because $#!+ happens but I wouldn't classify a lasgun as "Armour Piercing."

Except that it is, all it takes is a higher power setting. This is made abundantly clear in any of the various fluff sources that mention power settings.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes, but like I said before a grot derringer can kill a Terminator because $#!+ happens but I wouldn't classify a lasgun as "Armour Piercing."

Except that it is, all it takes is a higher power setting. This is made abundantly clear in any of the various fluff sources that mention power settings.

Well I wouldn't doubt that the Vitrians have a top-notch lasgun too. I don't if they're number 1 on my list of "weird but cool regiments" but they're definately up there with the reversible, glass, lamellar armour with built in battle-bible made in their spiralling glass cites.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Why not? Dan Abnet was helping them about fluff with Graham McNeill. It's same thing as saying that Imperial Armory isn't fluff.


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Melissia wrote:High (not full) power is enough to cut through power armor and decapitate a Marine. I hardly think that normal power settings would have any problems dealing with pottery.

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KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you talking about? A Lasgun on max power is AP "-".

And what are you too talking about? Don't mix tabletop rules and fluff. I seen ot tabletop a squad of Guardsman trying to kill one Ork Nob. In comics I have seen lashot going through the Ork Nob in one shot. In novels I haveread about one Lasshot one Ork Boy, and that was on normal setting. And it is stated that Lasgun can penetrate Space Marine power armor in one shot ( if you heat weak spot ) and be use to destroy a vehicle ( like Dreadnought ). When you cane to see it Lasgun is not that weak.

Brother Coa wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually it has hundreds of shots at its basic setting. Which just goes to show how high the highest power setting is I suppose.

Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon.

Why not? Dan Abnet was helping them about fluff with Graham McNeill. It's same thing as saying that Imperial Armory isn't fluff.


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Melissia wrote:High (not full) power is enough to cut through power armor and decapitate a Marine. I hardly think that normal power settings would have any problems dealing with pottery.

Please read this entire page for explanation.

It gives no explanation. YOU think it isn't for no real reason. It was written, by published by, approved by, is still sold by, GW. Everything in it is approved cannon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Please read this entire page for explanation.

Even if there is a statement that "Leman Russ fire black holes on enemy" it is still fluff. Like books, like comics, like codex.

iproxtaco wrote:It gives no explanation. YOU think it isn't for no real reason. It was written, by published by, approved by, is still sold by, GW. Everything in it is approved cannon.

Sigh, I'm just talking about the ammo part. As I said if one thing contradicts everything else then its logical to conclude the one exception is an error. Just like it's illogical to come to the opposite conclusion.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon

The proof is in the pudding. If IIUP is backed up by the various other sources already given, wherever you get your info from is wrong, as it's in the minority.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.

You'll have to remember that it wasn't that the Ghosts have a weird power pack, but the Munitorum staffer assigned to them came from a world where a 'standard laspack' was a size 2 or whatever the hell it was. When the Ghosts put in a request for 'standard laspacks' they failed to specify the actual size, and the staffer assumed they meant a standard from the world he was assigned to.

It wasn't an issue of being hard to supply, it was an issue of people on both sides being idiots and not communicating properly leading to a logistics foulup.

iproxtaco wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Nope. That just shows that the imperial uplifting whatever isn't cannon

The proof is in the pudding. If IIUP is backed up by the various other sources already given, wherever you get your info from is wrong, as it's in the minority.

BRB, IA, and DH say about 50 shots. Explain how they are wrong please.


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ChrisWWII wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I know your on Necropolis now so I'll give you a little preview of the next one. As I said before despite their light infantry status the Tanith are quite an advanced regiment/people. Besides the directional, personal micro-beads and camoline cloaks their Nalwood-pattern Lasguns are totally kickass. The don't use the same power cell as the vast bulk of The Imperium. They're a bit of a pain in the ass as far as the Munitorium is concerned.

You'll have to remember that it wasn't that the Ghosts have a weird power pack, but the Munitorum staffer assigned to them came from a world where a 'standard laspack' was a size 2 or whatever the hell it was. When the Ghosts put in a request for 'standard laspacks' they failed to specify the actual size, and the staffer assumed they meant a standard from the world he was assigned to.

It wasn't an issue of being hard to supply, it was an issue of people on both sides being idiots and not communicating properly leading to a logistics foulup.

Like I said a superior las pack is not stated but could be assumed. I'm more of the opinion now that the Vitrian lasgun at max power has a heck of a kick if it can blow a Chaos Marines head off. They're probably in the 20 rounds or less catagory which would explain the 3:1 ratio for the Tanith clips.

It's not a very good assumption. IIRC the problem was basically the size, not the feed. The Guardsman giving the Munitorum guy the lecture was very clear on the fact that his lasgun could take ANY laspack, as long as it was the right size. This was the problem. The size of the laspack was wrong to put it into the Ghost's lasguns, so they had to go into battel with a much lighter load than usual .

But yeah, remember, a lasgun is a laser, even at max power a 'heck of a lot of kick' is going to be a lot less than what you'd expect from the power you'd get out of it.

Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

I think there's a photo of a sickle clipped lasgun floating around out there. I mean we know they exist! My guess would be that since the clip is a battery, there isn't as much incentive to make big sickle mags for them.

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Leaving a powerpack out in the sun is considered to the "standard" method of recharging a power pack in the field. Over the course of several hours, it will completely replenish the energy used to fire the weapon. Throwing a pack into a campfire will also work if needed and will do so much faster than sunlight will, but it permanently reduces the maximum charge that a pack is capable of holding. So that should only be done in an emergency or if no other method is available.

Recharging stations are no doubt handy to use when available, but the energy needs to come from somewhere. And someone needs to plug and unplug all of the packs from the charging station (not a problem when there are only one or two packs; it's a different matter when you need to recharge 500 power packs...). Spreading them out in the open to collect sunlight is fairly simple and the energy is guaranteed to be 100% free.

I've heard the efficiency is reduced at night. Is there any truth to that?

If lasguns had 250 shots per magazine, the tactics of the guard would be wildly different.


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chaos0xomega wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Okay guys this is just my opinion,but Imperial Guard kind of strike me as the United States Army Rangers of the imperium wherein pdf are like the standard army, reasoning behind this logic is the comparitive sizes of those forces, iirc most Imperial guard units are like 60000 men, with support staff, so thats, Wherein PDF forces tend to number in the hundreds of thousands, am I the only one who thinks this or do you guys think the same?

I'd say guardsmen are actually the marines of the imperium. Pdf's would be regular army, for sure.

You have to remember that the Guard is a deployable force, not a stationary or 'presence' force. They come to get the job done, get out, and get to another battle. PDFs just protect their local systems, so yeah, army, or maybe even coasties

I think that is a fairly decent analogy. Thats actually the vibe I got about the DKoK (hard to believe) while reading parts of Dead Men Walking. Although let us be clear that the USMC is not necessarily a superior combat force to the US Army. There is the perspective of this in the general public. Actual combat data shows there to be no real difference between an average platoon of marines and soldiers in terms of battlefield results.

Id really like to know where you recieved/read that information.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As for ammo, powerpacks have a limited number of shots. In Dead Men Walking, 25 shots per pack seems to be the magic number. As I recall from another book, the packs can be recharged in the field by exposing them to heat, such as a campfire, or by leaving them out in the sun, but the effectiveness of these methods seems to be pretty limited, and to get a full charge in a decent amount of time requires a recharging station.

Leaving a powerpack out in the sun is considered to the "standard" method of recharging a power pack in the field. Over the course of several hours, it will completely replenish the energy used to fire the weapon. Throwing a pack into a campfire will also work if needed and will do so much faster than sunlight will, but it permanently reduces the maximum charge that a pack is capable of holding. So that should only be done in an emergency or if no other method is available.

Recharging stations are no doubt handy to use when available, but the energy needs to come from somewhere. And someone needs to plug and unplug all of the packs from the charging station (not a problem when there are only one or two packs; it's a different matter when you need to recharge 500 power packs...). Spreading them out in the open to collect sunlight is fairly simple and the energy is guaranteed to be 100% free.

I've heard the efficiency is reduced at night. Is there any truth to that?

The Guard wouldn't be able to take The Pacific Northwest. An Army relying on sunlight has no chance here!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Makes you wonder why we've never seen the las equivilaent of an extended mag. Some kind of giant-sickle-clip dodad. Gaunt uses a drum on his bolt pistol!

Are you talking about a banana clip? They're shaped the way that they are due to the shape of the bullets they carry. Because bullets are narrower at the front, you can squeeze a few more in if you curve the clip. A powerpack wouldn't have to worry about ammunition shapes, so adopting the specific banana clip shape wouldn't make much sense.

Though since bullets aren't an issue, you could make a clip any shape you wanted so long as the gun didn't get in the way.

Okay, first things first lets be a little more polite on here, we dont want the mods locking this thread because someone whines , and that aside I think DKoK in the second Ultramarines novels uses lasguns that are autos, though I may be wrong due to the 3 or 4 regiments that were on location during the battle. Also I think it is probably safe to say there is minimal quality control on lasgun magazines, so I wouldnt be surprised if occasionally there was a mag that held 300 rounds, but on the same token I wouldn't be surprised if some magazines were so shoddy they only held 10-15, this is without any fluff support, just thinking about the fact your average worker probably doesnt give a rats about his work/the charge he/she is putting into the magazine.


I don't quite agree with the comparison with the USMC due to the fact in a combat zone they tend to operate about just as well, wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Wardragoon wrote:wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

On the other hand, he also runs into plenty of PDF members that clearly are barely trained slobs who probably haven't cleaned their weapon in months.


There's also the PDF unit in 'Duty Calls'. That unit comes across as having particularly incompetent missile teams...

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What are you talking about? A Lasgun on max power is AP "-".

Hellguns/Hotshots are a whole other thing.

First Gaunt book. Normal settings just clanged against the armor, but the vitrian who switched his gun back to high power decapitated the marine.

That was after basically shoving it in the chaos marine's face.

EDIT: And remember the time where Gaunt recalls someone killing a chaos dreadnought with a single las-shot? Flukes happen.

Eumerin wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:wherein at least in Cains For The Emperor he says the PDF quality is shoddy at best(probably can be trusted due to the fact he has no real reason to lie about it)

Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

INdeed they do. But at the same time, the PDF in the first book are generally incompetent, and probably closer to the norm.

The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Keep on perpetuation the unfluffy stereotype about the Imperial Guard. Or just read the thread.

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

Uh, if by Fodder you mean the primary military force that fights and wins the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars without ever seeing a single Space Marine boot?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Eumerin wrote:Amberlee mentions repeatedly that Cain is somewhat biased when it comes to PDF troops. And the ones in 'Death or Glory' seem competent enough. Of course, one can also make the argument that any PDF members still alive by the time Cain finds them in that book are a cut above the rest.

The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

Spoiler:

The PDF become a movement that basically turns the war in the IG's favour.

We're talking about the same group here, just as an FYI.

To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor. Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

The lasgun is cheap to make, the power cell is close to a clip(it actually runs out of charge which can be seen as ammo). I don't think combat settings would let you shoot more than 60 shots, maybe training settings would let you get more than 60.


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Wardragoon wrote:

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Didn't I already say that on page 6?


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halonachos wrote:The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

Sorry, it was page 3.

halonachos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor.

I swear, sometimes it's like herding cats here in the background forum.
Guard 'combat settings' are the most they can do to potentially damage foes that are far better armored than they are. If they were to amp up the power, you'd be looking at AP3 or 4, but being able to fire once every other round since they'd be burning through powerpacks like mad.

Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

Hotshots are not stronger variants needing a power-source in a backpack and better barrels. Those are "hellguns" and Robin Cruddace alongside of whoever let him do it should be beaten with whippy sticks for bringing back the stupidity of the term "hotshot lasgun".
"Hotshot" is a description of an overcharged lasgun powerpack. It can be used with any kind of lasgun, it's just not generally recommended without reinforced barrels since it can damage the internals of the lasgun otherwise. "Hotshot" powerpacks are generally employed with long-lases because of the killpower associated being favored by snipers.

"Hellguns" use the same general principle of an "overcharged lasgun", but crank it up to 11 and give it a sweet motorcycle with flames on it. The idea is it's a reinforced weapon intended to use the most killpower possible for an assault-y styled unit (which failed on that front with the Stormtrooper rules, but irrelevant).

Nightwalker wrote:The role of Imperial Gaurd is Fodder, nothing more nothing less

The Imperial Guard wins more battles in a year than the Space Marines win in a century, easily.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The book where Cain crash lands on an Ork-contested planet:

Spoiler:

The PDF become a movement that basically turns the war in the IG's favour.

Cain himself is what turns the war, by killing the warboss. The PDF's main accomplishment is in surviving, not damaging the overall fighting capacity of the ork waaugh.

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:

PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army, Guardsmen have twice that, and Stormtroopers started undergoing Spec Ops intensity training when they were six or seven at the latest, and have had more than a decade of training that only increased from there before being deployed. Veterans rank next to Stormtroopers in raw skill, if not in operational use.

This is of course to say nothing of worlds like Cadia, where every single Cadian goes through the equivalent of bootcamp a dozen times over before they're fifteen, or Krieg, where they're trained by being pitted against each other in actual warfare for years in an irradiated wasteland (and probably received Cadian-level training prior to that), with the survivors being considered worthy of being shipped off to the Guard.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Recall that PDF troops have an amount of training equivalent to the modern US army

I *strongly* doubt that. I'm confident that some are that well-trained, but I strongly doubt that most PDF on your typical mostly peaceful world are as well trained as the modern US military. The US military is one of trained militaries (if not the actual best) in the world today. Members are trained not only when they're newly recruited, but continuously during peacetime as well. The training regimen is good enough these days that many members have stated that the US military's training programs might be a little *too* good at simulating combat. Your average PDF trooper probably gets some basic training when he joins up, and then gets additional training at irregular intervals. As I mentioned in an earlier post, continuous training costs lots of money and it's one of the first places that a governor is likely to look for cost cutting measures on a planet that doesn't see much conflict. Why put your PDF troopers through constant training if you're confident that they'll muster out without ever seeing combat?

halonachos wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:My point remains. Everything says 25-60 rounds except one book that's meant to be comedic. It's more reasonable to assume the one book is in error rather than everything else.

Or you're entirely missing the point that has been laid out before you.

It's 25-60 shots in a combat setting, where troopers ramp up the power being drained for each shot. A 'basic' charge shot would feasibly be stopped by flak armor. The 'combat' setting can deal significantly more damage, while not damaging the charge pack.

And quite frankly, it's not meant to be "comedic". It's meant to be propaganda.

I didn't know that AP- meant the shot could pierce some armor. Hot shots are stronger variants and they need a powersource in a back pack and better barrels.

The lasgun is cheap to make, the power cell is close to a clip(it actually runs out of charge which can be seen as ammo). I don't think combat settings would let you shoot more than 60 shots, maybe training settings would let you get more than 60.


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Wardragoon wrote:

odmiller wrote:To the OP's question, I'd say it goes like this:


PDF - National Guard or Reserves (quality of PDF varies, as do NG and Reserve units)

IG - Regular Army and/or Marines

Veterans - Rangers, and Recon units

Storm Troopers - Delta Force, Seals, etc.

Huh, I can live with that,makes sense too as far as some of your regiments go

Didn't I already say that on page 6?


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halonachos wrote:The IG is like a collection of various armies with their own specialties and specialists. I imagine it like current military units, US Army has Rangers and each country has an Army with their own Specialists. Now imagine that all of these countries are planets on the same side and add in the National Guard and its equivalents for the PDF.

Sorry, it was page 3.

Well, after going back 4 pages of how many shots in a magazine, I gave up looking for anyone answering the OP question. Sorry about that. Your explanation is fine.