You know that one guy, who you just look at him when you're reading your codex, or you see him on the wall in your store and you think; damn it, that would just be awesome, if only they were a little better? Share it here.

Assault Marines. I feel like I would be a lot more thrilled about them, if kitting them out wasn't so damn expensive. IIRC, adding jump packs costs over 100 points? Same deal with Vanguard Vets and Devastators. They'd be so much more awesome if I didn't need to spend so much on them.

Paladins. They can take a hit, but just cannot dish one out.

Puscifer wrote:Paladins. They can take a hit, but just cannot dish one out.

You're kidding, right?

My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

Beast of Nurgle, why would anyone ever take one ( or more) of these.

I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

Another unit I know I'd love to take more often is the Vanilla Marines Honor Guard. They're very killy under the right circumstances, but they cost so much in points that I find myself hard-pressed to find the points for them in the 750 point games I play.

Pouncey wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

It may very well be Vanguard Vets that I was thinking of, then.

I wish Whirlwinds had a large template. Smart spacing really takes the juice out of what they have now.

Whirlwinds for marines, nice model, just completely redundant when you get a dakka pred for the same cost

Conscripts for guard, lets foot guard get even more guys on the table but only cost 1 point less and really should be 2 at least due to the lower WS, BS and Ld

Pouncey wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

Another unit I know I'd love to take more often is the Vanilla Marines Honor Guard. They're very killy under the right circumstances, but they cost so much in points that I find myself hard-pressed to find the points for them in the 750 point games I play.

Only Rhinos or Drop Pods

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Whirlwinds for marines, nice model, just completely redundant when you get a dakka pred for the same cost

Conscripts for guard, lets foot guard get even more guys on the table but only cost 1 point less and really should be 2 at least due to the lower WS, BS and Ld

Pouncey wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

Another unit I know I'd love to take more often is the Vanilla Marines Honor Guard. They're very killy under the right circumstances, but they cost so much in points that I find myself hard-pressed to find the points for them in the 750 point games I play.

Only Rhinos or Drop Pods

Exactly, though I'd be less likely to go for the dakka pred, since I can get that dakka from a rifleman dread or bolterbacks or assbacks, instead of using an HS slot on it. My two cents, though. Point is, I'd be more keen on using it if my opponent couldn't neuter the templates with an inch of spacing.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

It may very well be Vanguard Vets that I was thinking of, then.

I wish Whirlwinds had a large template. Smart spacing really takes the juice out of what they have now.

They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

Another on my end is Burna Boyz. Truth be told, I don't know how effective they are, because I've never been able to find a place for them. My current Orks list contains a Big Mek, two 20-strong mobs of Boyz, 10 Lootas, and 3 Killa Kanz. Dropping the Killa Kanz would probably be able to free up the points, but I just love the models so much that I can't bring myself to do so. And the Lootas are really the only reliable anti-vehicle stuff in the list, though the Boyz have a total of 4 rokkit launchas between them.

Pouncey wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Pouncey wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

They might. I've been known to make incorrect statements based on some crap I think I heard people say.

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

:: nods :: I know Vanguard Vets have to pay for their jump packs, but I think Assault Marines come with them - at least in the Vanilla Codex - and have the option to swap their jump packs for a transport vehicle for little to no points cost.

It may very well be Vanguard Vets that I was thinking of, then.

I wish Whirlwinds had a large template. Smart spacing really takes the juice out of what they have now.

They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

Again, this is classic me; hearing stuff and not bothering to check it. xD

Scout bikers, I keep trying to find a place for them, but i cant. But cluster mines are awesome.

Crowe. One of the best swordsmen in the game, couldn't put a wound on a chicken.

Lychguard. Only useful if your enemy is stupid and actually lets them get anywhere near 6" of his units. On paper they seem really nice, but if you just shoot them enough before they get near you they're just a huge waste of points. Of course, 6th edition could always make them more useful, but we'll see.

Vespids

Anything with the word "Guardian" in it.

Pryovore

Flamers are cool but this thing is long dead before it ever gets in shooting range.

The Techpriest. It's better to just buy another tank rather than use his repair rules and way better just to buy Guardsmen or Sentinels rather than gun servitors.

Chaos space marine spawn.

The worst unit in the guard codex is the techpriest, but the most "I wish I could take it, but I just... can't" for me is either conscripts or the colossus. Conscripts are just too expensive, and the colossus is just too niche, but otherwise I'd really like to like them.

In CSM, the worst unit, by far, is spawn. The most liked-to-like for me is probably the dread. It's madness is just too awful for me to seriously consider taking one.

In SM, the worst unit is probably the TFC (congratulations, you managed to kill three whole guardsmen before a single autocannon knocked it out?), while there are a LOT of these want-to-want from regular assault marines to vanguards to ironclads and venerables to like half of the special characters. There is so much in the SM codex that with the tiniest tweaks, I'd be much more interested in fielding.

Ratlings. i want to use them so badly, but the though of having them run away the first chance they get is maddening.

Close second is the sentinel, not because it sucks, but because it costs more than its worth. Give me even a 5pts discount and I'd use the heck out of them

Flash Gitz. I just love the fluff, the randomness, their kick ass gun and the upgrades, and can still get stuck in with the best of them 'cause they still got nob stats. But once you start buy those upgrades, their cost effectiveness plummets.

Chaos Space Marine possessed. Nothing like having an ability that you can't use when you would like to (Scouts)

Puscifer wrote:Paladins. They can take a hit, but just cannot dish one out.

O_o

2 attacks with WS5 Force Weapons that can choose from a variety of options that can give +1A, +1 to invul in CC, +2 Init, x2 Str, with a psychic power that boosts Strength (before other modifiers and stacks with other Str enhancing powers!), and a good assortment of shooting weaponry just isn't killy enough ?

TermiesInARaider wrote:

OT, I wish Tactical Terminators were as shooty as Assault Terminators are Choppy.

To be fair, Tac Terminators were never intended to be a heavy shooting unit, rather bigger, beefier tac squads that were capable at shooting and CC both. With regards to CC, Tac Termi's are just as killy as Assault Terminators, the difference is they don't have the easymode3++invul crutch to lean on that the assault termi's get. TH/SS termi's and Tac Termi's have no difference in killing power, and against LC termi's it varies depending on what you are fighting (LC termi's are better against smaller things, Pfist termi's better against tanks and MC's). As is, with regards to shooting, Tac Termi's aren't supposed to be a heavy firepower shooting unit devastating other units through firepower, their firepower is to soften up enemies as they close to smash them to bits with powerfists.

Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

For GKs, id have to say the purgitation squads are pretty crappy. 4 psycannons on 5 guys sounds good but its expensive and kind of pointless when its suppose to be a unit that sits back and lays down fire, but has to be too close just to be in range.

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

Storm Boyz... 100% useless...

Guardsmen.

DE: Mandrakes/ Kaedruakk (or whatever) the Decapitator.

mandrakes have Awesomesauce models, but an infiltrating CC unit that doesn't even get a ranged attack until they kill someone, and which on;y has regular CC weapons, no armour and only a 5+ inv?

Not so hot.

Decapitator pops up anywhere he likes, but can't assault that turn , so he gets to wave at the guys who then level their guns and blow him away..

You can make them work, but it's not generally worth it.


Orks:

Looted Wagon. It's not useless, but it's vastly overpriced for an inferior rhino, and even more overpriced as an inferior basilisk Give me proper Looted Wagons back, dammit !

Guardians
Sniper Drones
Spawn

Pouncey wrote:
They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

False. Ordnance BLAST weapons always use the large blast marker unless specified otherwise.

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

rigeld2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

I hear Lictors are pretty fail these days. Zoanthropes too, though that just might be what I'm seeing. Most of the time, guys play them with Psychic Lance as tank hunters, and every time, without fail, they either miss their attack and get merced next turn, or they fail their psychic test.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Sasori wrote:Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

I hear Lictors are pretty fail these days.

Lictors have redeeming qualities - Str6 Assault 2 Rending shots, and decent close combat stats (as long as they survive the deep strike turn)

Zoanthropes too, though that just might be what I'm seeing. Most of the time, guys play them with Psychic Lance as tank hunters, and every time, without fail, they either miss their attack and get merced next turn, or they fail their psychic test.

That's essentially my experience with them as well when I proxy them. So I don't use them. But others swear by them and I can see them being effective if you don't fail at die rolling.

Pyrovores I just don't see any redeeming features. They get 1 (2 on the charge!) power weapon attacks with a dazzling strength of 4 at init 1. They have a Heavy Flamer that they can fire even out of Synapse.
All for the low low price of essentially the same as Hive Guard and a coveted Elite slot.

Yeah, I'm not seeing *anything* redeeming.

Grimtuff wrote:

Pouncey wrote:
They do. ^_^ If you check page 58 of the main rulebook, you'll see that Ordnance weapons always use the large blast template unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out the FAQ for the vanilla Marine codex. ^_^

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170014a_Space_Marine_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf

Page 79 and 144 – Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher
Add “Large Blast” to the Type of both the Vengeance
Missiles and Incendary Castellan Missiles.

False. Ordnance BLAST weapons always use the large blast marker unless specified otherwise.

Conceded. ^_^ Somehow I missed the word, "Blast" while reading that entry the first time around.

I don't know enough about CSM to know why this is, but every time I've seen someone field Noise Marines, they fail horribly.

On the Pheonix Lords I think that some of them can be ok. Jain Zar and Maugan Ra spring to mind (mainly the former), although they aren't optimum, those 2 aren't bad.

I'd probably say Swooping Hawks for my Eldar, Flash Gitz for my Orks and Blood Claws for the Space Wolves (WS and BS 4 would have been nice).

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Sorry - Pyrovores are worse than Carnifexes. At least Carnifexes are decent yet overcosted.
I can't think of a use for Pyrovores besides a suicide unit... and that assumes they get to the target intact.

Yeah, but I don't own any Pyrovores. So, for me, the most underwhelming unit are my Carnifexes. I forget that Pyrovores even exist most of the time, to tell you the truth.

I like this thread. My list of "one tweak away from being cool" units:

IG: penal legion. So much potential in both fluff and game play, but the lack of options, durability, and offensive output make them little mroe than a fun distraction.

SM: Tactical Squad. Compared to Grey Hunters or BA assault squads, the Tactical squad is just... lacking.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Just overpriced. Make 'em dirt cheap and hand out power weapons/fists, and they'd be fine.

Orks: Storm Boys. They're in no way bad, just not particularly good.

Grey Knights: Whatever their devestators are called. A heavy support choice wtih short range weapons, no access to a pod, and competing with psyflmen, dreadknights, and all three landraider.

Eldar: Storm Guardians. Outside of suicide flamers, I can't think of many good uses for these guys. Admittedly, S3 assault troops are a tough sell in general, so the unit might just be fundamentally flaw, but they seem like a cool idea.

Chaos: Khorne Berzerkers. While nearly the full codex is a step short of being actually cool, berzerkers are a neat unit that is close to being cool. Give them cheaper plasma pistols and access to more assault gear, and drop the points a little.

Tyranids: Tyranid Warriors. While much of the codex is underwheliming, Warriors should be an iconic unit, and just aren't.

Tau: Stealth Suits. Arguably overpowered in 3rd, the 4th edition codex hurt them bad, followed by the end of area terrain in 5th. Fine with a points drop, IMO.

Daemons: Furies. While there are plenty of stinky units in the book, Furies are one of the worst. What seperats them from, say, nurglings or beasts of nurgle is that they could, and should, fill a unit role, as jump pack assault troops. Find a cool trope none of the god specific demons have (like Furious charge, rending, FnP, shooting, etc.). I say give them Preferred enemy, skilled flyer, and counterattack. with fearless and S/T4, they become a really annoying harrassment unit.

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Well the dude won the game, so whatever they costed, I wager he'd say they were worth it.

Gargantuan wrote:Chaos space marine spawn.

Worst ever? Yup

In my tau codex? Ethereals, but I still use them and win (LAWL)

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

Well the dude won the game, so whatever they costed, I wager he'd say they were worth it.

In a regular game of 40k, they're not. In Apoc, you field everything you have anyway, so the cost isn't as big an issue. Even then, I'd say they are too expensive.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Just overpriced. Make 'em dirt cheap and hand out power weapons/fists, and they'd be fine.

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Screamers. Jetbike meltabombs look decent on paper, then you put this into practice and realise its a single attack each, needing 6s to hit.
Also I dont see how this ability matches the fluff. How can a creature with jaws strong enough to chew through a starship be thwarted by an Ork in little more than a vest?

Maybe they don't like mushrooms.

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

UberhAxTHC wrote:Chaos Space Marine possessed. Nothing like having an ability that you can't use when you would like to (Scouts)

Possessed are usless just marines with out bolters........

Then again Chaos Dreads also with this silly Frenzy rule, Dreads are supposed to support assualts in combat not lead them they die turns 1-3 very easy.

Raptors-Jump Troops for Chaos to expencive and not choppy enough I would rather spend on more Bezerkers.

Spawn....well not worth taking point wise would rather pick up another Obliterator.

Special chars: Abbadon pokes himself way to much, Typhus is boring unless you are playing Nurgle forces all the special chars just are not woth the points just take a regular Chaos Lord.

Chaos Bikers: Love em but never seem to have enough models to play em much.

Best Troop choice: Beserkers rule the lists followed by Plague Marines and 1,000 Sons, Noise Marines remind me of the old school Tactical squads of 3rd and 4th edition with flashy special and hvy weapon choices.

Tau Sniper Drone Teams, the unit should get infiltrate or scout or something to get into a better position turn 1. The spotter should be a Shas'ui who gets access to wargear. The drones shouldn't lose Relentless just because they are hanging out with an infantry model.

For Eldar, I find the phoenix lords (with the exception of maybe Maugan Ra) really overcosted for what they do (most don't even have invulnerable saves). Guardians are also pretty lacking.

For chaos I gotta say that the only time a spawn is worth it is if someone gets hit by the gift of chaos, because then it's free. Possesed also went from awesome to just plain overcosted and with a random ability? Only in my wacky fun lists now. I find Fabius bile a bit underwhelming as well. He's not absolutely terrible, but he's only 5 less points than Kharn, and to use his main ability you're looking at +30 points on a 10 man marine squad that may end up wrecking itself right away.

Lychguard never quite seemed to work as well as they should. Dispersion shields are nice, but the ones with warscythes move too slow and die too quick, every time.

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

I'd add Noise marines actually. five points per model for +1 Initiative? Another 5 for sonic blasters? No thanks. Waaaay too expensive.

Polonius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

Bloodclaws Have BP&CCW Standard, so get 2 Attacks base. They also get 2 attacks on the charge. They get Access to powerfists, which is what everyone takes anyway. You can also Attach Wolfguard, which almost everyone does with GH, to get rid of the Headstrong.

Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

Sasori wrote:

Polonius wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Sasori wrote:

I think Blood Claws are perfectly priced, it's just that Grey Hunters are Underpriced, to the point it makes Bloodclaws look overpriced.

Agreed, Blood Claws aren't really out of place with their cost. It's just that next to Grey Hunters which are about 3pts (20%) undercosted, they obviously aren't going to measure up.

I dunno. Bloodclaws are still a power armored assault unit with WS3, 1 attack, and no access to close combat wargear.

Compare them to vanilla scouts: they get a better save and the berzerker charge rule, but lose scout, infiltrate, and move through cover, all for three points. I think that, especially since they need a rhino, making them 12-13 points isn't out of line.

I'll agree that grey hunters are undercosted, although by how much is an interesting debate.

Bloodclaws Have BP&CCW Standard, so get 2 Attacks base. They also get 2 attacks on the charge. They get Access to powerfists, which is what everyone takes anyway. You can also Attach Wolfguard, which almost everyone does with GH, to get rid of the Headstrong.

Hmmm, I didn't know that they could take an upgrade fist. But they still have one base attack, compared to other dedicated assault units like bloodbrides, vanguard, berzerkers, etc.

Part of the problem is that power armored assault units are simply bad with all the power weapons in the meta. The only army that really pulls it off are BA with priests.

the only advantage claws have over hunters is that extra attack on the charge, which is more than made up for, over time, by only being WS3.

You could make them cheaper, but you then quickly run into the trukk boy problem (too few models per transport to really have an impact).

I say make them actually match the fluff: keep 'wm WS3 so they're easy to hit, but give them preferred enemy (hot blooded youths that sacrifice defense for offense). Make them roughly scout priced, and you now have a decently hard hitting, cheap little assault unit. I'd even consider giving them fleet, but that might be a bit too much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

martin74 wrote:Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

I love the concept, but in practice it's so lousy. Shooting at T3 in cover results in just over four dead. Lame.

I'd make it S6, Heavy 12, but ignores cover.

seekers of the slaaneshi persuasion...i just can't get them in fast enough to do any damage. there a decent enough unit and are a viable choice, but they just have never gotten off the ground to do what they need to for me in my games, i might be using them wrong or just being a slowed tactician.

but yeah as far as units that i use in my army that are potentially good...yes seekers are the most underwhelming for me.

Probably storm troopers, not because they are bad, but because they have so much promise, fluff and theoretical ways of playing them, but when it comes down to it they only really have one use, tank hunting - underwhelming.

Nids - Ripper Swarms of any variety
Crons - Triarch Praetorians

Deathstrike Launcher.

It may hit hard and have a wide blast radius (that sometimes isn't veyr big). but outside of Apoc and the Vortex just isn't worth it.

Deathstrike missile launcher vs Punisher. Which is the suckiest in the IG codex? Both are great in fluff and purpose, but, don't deliver.

The difference is that the deathstrike is actually good at what it says.

You may need to build the (very strange) army around the unit, but an army built around deathstrikes will win more games than one built around punishers.

Hell, even throwing a deathstrike into an AV12 spam list could at least be interesting.

If people are mentioning anything apart from beasts of nurgle or furies for daemons...your mad.

lol.

Ailaros wrote:
In SM, the worst unit is probably the TFC (congratulations, you managed to kill three whole guardsmen before a single autocannon knocked it out?),

If it were a guard Autocannon, it only has a 1/6 chance of killing the TFC. You're probably forgetting a cover save, which should be easy enough to achieve since you only have to get cover for one infantry model.

Also, remember the TFC is only 25 points. It comes with a 75 point Techmarine.

martin74 wrote:Leman Russ Punisher. That thing might be able to chew up infantry, but, most have armor saves they seem to make. And taking out mech of any kind? Hardly ever.

It squishes MEQ, tyranids, MCs, anything that's not a terminator really.
On topic I'd say conscripts. Just downright rubbish, an obvious candidate for point decrease and/or free commissar.

From the perspective of what has the most potential to be good or fun to use but then flops I'd go with:

IG: Techpriests. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to repair your vehicles and the combat potential of Servitors further makes them a very exciting unit. But then they fall flat on their face. Servitors are by no means the best ways to get heavy weapons or powerfists in the 'dex and the Techpriests themselves end up being largely useless for their points because their repair ability is just so... meh. You have to be in base contact, and you have to roll to see if it works, and that's assuming your vehicle got a 3 or 4 on the damage table as it can't fix 1 or 2 or bring them back from the dead.

Daemons: Seekers of Slaanesh. They aren't a bad unit, certainly not as bad as some others, but their potential is just so much higher than their actual effectiveness. I expect to be dashing around the map picking off weak units, harrassing flanks... instead they seem to be fighting with Nerf swords only getting the few rend wounds to do any damage. And then when things hit them they fall apart like a small child's mind as he walks in on his parents making sweet, sweet love.

The problem with tech priests are that mech guard lists are about bringing as much firepower as possible to the board with as many hulls. Techpriest+servitors are expensive and VERY vulnerable, and become even less effective if you give them all plasma cannons.
Personally I don't see that he fits. He definitely fits in with more hybrid-esque marines, but I don't see how he can work in mech IG and should probably be scrapped.

Marzillius wrote:

Puscifer wrote:Paladins. They can take a hit, but just cannot dish one out.

You're kidding, right?

My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

Not kidding in the slightest. Yeah they are good, just not 55 points good.

The only good Phoenix Lord is Maugan Ra. That guy is just nasty.

Hmmm, I didn't know that they could take an upgrade fist. But they still have one base attack, compared to other dedicated assault units like bloodbrides, vanguard, berzerkers, etc.

You just compared a cheap assault troop unit with Elite 20+ costing units..

Which on the charge can match them, thank you very much.

Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Cannoness.

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

Necron: Flayed ones, they're so bad they didn't even get mentioned yet. There warriors with more attack, that can infiltrate, but cant shoot. Or even affect morale(since there whole concept is melee troops that are horrifying, thats just sad) Preatorians get mentioned because they are CLOSE to useful, just a tweek to the stat line and they'd be good...

Swooping Hawks.

What on Earth are they for? They have the guns for tackling light infantry but the special rules, upgrades and equipment for killing tanks.

And they can't really do either.

Or Guardians.

Because it makes so much sense to equip your dying race's civilians with awful armour and Assault 2 12" weapons...

I play Tau. I think the question should be...

What is the ONLY unit that is good in your codex?

Pheonix lords deserve a second. Especially Maugan Ra. Dude pulls a planet out of the warp with his bare hands, kills an entire hive fleet. But no invuln, and a mediocre gun.....

Also Ogryns.


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OH! and Yarrick. Really wish his rules matched his fluff.

Thunder Fire Cannon is not a waste, nor, near the worst selection in the SM codex, not even the worst heavy support choice. It can work in any list. Three different munitions to destroy, or at least slow down a unit.

Ogryns, alot more useful than a punisher. I have killed more with 5 ogryns than a Punisher(heavy bolter sponsons, heavy bolter, and pask).

Orks are saddled with the Looted Wagons - AV 11/11/10 and DPD! means it's next to useless.

I would have to say a Ministorum Priest.
They cost 45 points with no upgrades, and +15points for an eviscerator(same as chainfist).
The crappy thing about him is that he has normal guardsmanstats, he is independent character (worth killpoint and dies before hitting in melee) and the bonus you get isn't very good.(reroll failed to hit if you charge)
For 60 points i can get another guardsmansquad with a powerweapon / vox+flamer, and thats alot more benefitial.

Someone mentioned Techpriest, but i have to disagree. its true that they cost alot, and aren't allmighty, but my experience, especially vs tyranids tells me that a trygon/carnifex that deepstrikes close to the tank, planning to rip it appart the following round have been stopped by a squad of a techpriest and 4 servitors. Not only do they "occupy" the carnifex long enough for the russ to get away, but with 5 strenght 8 weapons you do in fact do damage to a monsterous creature

EASY!!! Codex Daemons: Furies

so much suck, for so many points, for so very little output. Only redeeming quality is there is NO competition for them

Sleepysloth wrote:From the perspective of what has the most potential to be good or fun to use but then flops I'd go with:

IG: Techpriests. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to repair your vehicles and the combat potential of Servitors further makes them a very exciting unit. But then they fall flat on their face. Servitors are by no means the best ways to get heavy weapons or powerfists in the 'dex and the Techpriests themselves end up being largely useless for their points because their repair ability is just so... meh. You have to be in base contact, and you have to roll to see if it works, and that's assuming your vehicle got a 3 or 4 on the damage table as it can't fix 1 or 2 or bring them back from the dead.

Daemons: Seekers of Slaanesh. They aren't a bad unit, certainly not as bad as some others, but their potential is just so much higher than their actual effectiveness. I expect to be dashing around the map picking off weak units, harrassing flanks... instead they seem to be fighting with Nerf swords only getting the few rend wounds to do any damage. And then when things hit them they fall apart like a small child's mind as he walks in on his parents making sweet, sweet love.

I lol'd.

OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

SoulGazer wrote:Lychguard. Only useful if your enemy is stupid and actually lets them get anywhere near 6" of his units. On paper they seem really nice, but if you just shoot them enough before they get near you they're just a huge waste of points. Of course, 6th edition could always make them more useful, but we'll see.

I donno man, veil of darkness / night scythe really helps that, personally it'll probably be flayed ones.

TermiesInARaider wrote:
I lol'd.

OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

I'm going to have to echo Imperial Guard conscripts. Their role is completely eclipsed by standard IG infantry squads, who have better WS, BS, and LD, frag grenades, access to special/heavy/power weapons, and Commissars, all for 1 point more per model. I can't think of a better theoretical tarpit than conscripts with a Commissar, but you can't take them in the unit. Real shame. I also wish Penal Legions were available as larger units, as 10 Guardsmen are going to die like chumps, and Penal Legion sounds more like a unit that would be good for massed infantry charges.

For Space Marines, I'm nominating Legion of the Damned. If you want to spend 20 points for a flamer, be my guest. For how many points it costs for a Legionnaire with a heavy flamer, you can get a Landspeeder with one. If you want a unit with just as much firepower, take a tactical squad. If you want a squad with more survivability, take TH/SS Terminators. When you kit out a squad with special weapons, they end up costing almost as much as assault Terminators anyway, and for the same cost you can usually get Sternguard to do a far better job. Shame, since their fluff is neat and their models rule.

Or poison.. Lots of poison

TermiesInARaider wrote:OT, Wraithguard never quite seemed as tough as they possibly should be...

They're pretty tough, but they're slow, with short ranged guns, and you can't even fit a full squad of 10 into a wave serpent, which means that if you want to give them any mobility you're taking them as an elites choice, which when you have fire dragons for less points, and arguably as much effectiveness, it leaves them wanting IMO. They are quite good in a full squad of 10 (so they count as troops) get a warlock with conceal and maybe even a four tune seer and camp em on an objective. Very hard to get off. Still though, I find them kinda underwhelming as well.

Serge-David wrote:

SoulGazer wrote:Lychguard. Only useful if your enemy is stupid and actually lets them get anywhere near 6" of his units. On paper they seem really nice, but if you just shoot them enough before they get near you they're just a huge waste of points. Of course, 6th edition could always make them more useful, but we'll see.

I donno man, veil of darkness / night scythe really helps that, personally it'll probably be flayed ones.

I'm going to actually second the Lychguard, but Flayed Ones are also a good call. The dispersion shields are pretty rocking, but if you give them warscythes, they just don't last long enough. That's just how I see them played, though. Might just be the guys I hang with.

Kroot.

They have horrendously failed me every time I used them.


I'm glad I can better pull off wins when I use Firewarriors

Most underwhelming unit? I would say Asurmen, you pay so much points for basically a tarpit, I could find a use for any other Phoenix lord but not one for him, in terms of units I woul like to get but couldn't it would be Storm Guardians, they only come in packs of 8 but the minimum unit size is 10 -_-

PhrycePhyre wrote:Most underwhelming unit? I would say Asurmen, you pay so much points for basically a tarpit, I could find a use for any other Phoenix lord but not one for him, in terms of units I woul like to get but couldn't it would be Storm Guardians, they only come in packs of 8 but the minimum unit size is 10 -_-

Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1 and THEN you've got all the Warlocks and the Seers attacks. The unit becomes a nigh unstoppable deathstar. He is by no means the least useful Pheonix Lord. Barroth or Maugan Ra have that honour.

Sasori wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Sasori wrote:Eldar, would be Guardians.

Tyranids, would be Carnifexes,

Necrons, would probably be Praetorians. So much potential in that unit, wasted.

I saw an Apoc battle report where a guy fielded a brood of three Screamer-Killers. They had this weird team-up thing, where if all three of them are alive, they can put out a MASSIVE flamer template. something like... I can't remember, strength eight, AP 3? It was ridiculous, gutted two tac squads in one go.

With that, they would still be overcosted, and underwhelming.

That would be the Behemoth Crusher Brood. What's weird is it goes some way to fixing Carnifexes and then goes the other way and still makes them worse. When in the brood, they get fleet and that ranged attack, which is actually pretty nasty, so two of their big drawbacks are addressed - not being as fast as Trygons, and not having a default ranged attack. The downside is they are required to take a set of crushing claws, the worst weapon option they can take.

sam0 wrote:Storm Boyz... 100% useless...

I totally disagree...

I always take a unit of 15 with a PK if I have the points, and find them to be very effective at one thing:

Get into enemy quickly, kill something (anything, seriously, an empty drop pod, rhino, that unit of scouts squatting on home objective, anything, something important and/or expensive is better, but I'll settle for anything) then watch as they get shot at by everything in range, but hey, at least that's 1 turn where my opponent isn't concentrating all his fire on the rest of the horde that's waltzing up the table...

For me, its the Penitent Engine. They are uncontrolled expensive lightly armored walkers that can be taken in sqaudrons, but they are heavy support. Gee thanks GW. To top it all off they are a big multi-part metal model which is a pain to put together.

Mandrakes. Gorgeous resculpt, awesome fluff, but take up a valuable Elite slot for two meagre S4 attacks and outflank. Overcosted AND underpowered. I might consider them for 10PPM (just to have a cheap outflanking distraction unit) but costed as they are they're not effective.

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

LOL you just dont know how to use them... I have 2 squads of them and they are straight money for their points. How bout the Canoness decked out 135pnts... really for that kind of points she should have a 2+ 3++, Not eternal warrior, Str 3 Tou 3.. yeah I'll take Uriah, Kyrnov or Celestine all day long.

I used pyrovores once. Good *god* what was I thinking? They really did hurt my *entire* army for just being there. There was literally nothing they did that something else couldn't do better. Old One Eye was also complete and utter rubbish, a slightly buffed regenerating screamer killer for over one and a half times the cost? Yeah I think I'll pass...

Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

It's a shame because I've always been a fan of giant robots and the fluff is really cool. :(

Ogryns

Servitors. They are cool models but, They are just uesless.
I wish i could field them but i cant.

Pyrovores are useless. the idea is neat! but they take up elite spots.

Nids have fantastic elites.

Also the Harpy is not good. t5 really shuts it down.

DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

captain collius wrote:DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Joey wrote:

captain collius wrote:DA assault squads: more expensive the our brothers without special weapons options. UGGGGHHHHH they are awesome looking but they can't do the buisness.

To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Thank you i'm quoting that
Also yeah we don't really have much just deathwing, belial, landspeeder typhoons and okay dreads

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1

He only reduces attacks directed at him. He's his own unit and aspect powers don't go to Warlocks.

Kaptin Badrukk.

He's got a nice gun, but is he really worth as much as a BS 4, Night-shielded, Flickerfielded Ravager for firepower?

In close combat he is meh in the extreme.

StoneRaizer wrote:Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

Need something to drop down first turn and provide an epic distraction diverting attention away from your Long Fangs? There you go. And sticking a Multi-Melta on there has ridded me of the Manticore in the backfield on the first turn plenty of times. Yeah, it takes up an already crowded slot, but I still like it.

On the Pheonix Lords, again, I would disagree with saying that Jain Zar is apaaling. Granted, the lack of an Invulnerable save sucks, but shes the cheapest of the Pheonix Lords and what you get is a 2+ Armour save to soak up shots in wound allocation to stop them hitting your Banshees, 5(?) S7 I8 (IIRC) Power Weapon attacks on the charge, Fearless, Fleet and Eternal Warrior, and the Exarch powers free. Also, if you want to soften up that Terminator squad before going in, you've got a 3 shot assault weapon that's S5 and AP2 to throw from a BS7 model before going in. If she conferred Furious Charge to her unit she'd be great, but even without it I think that she is a decent little CC machine for 195pts. Not great, but not bad either.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game.

As for doing no damage, firstly, it's okay if they don't. In the actual time I faced off against this, two power blobs charged in and did nothing to the single unit of wraithguard, and then the next turn the striking scorpions charged in and began horribly massacring my guardsmen. I almost had the same thing happen again the next turn with some banshees except they rolled really terribly for difficult terrain. Even if wriathguard don't do a lot of damage, they make a hell of an anvil.

Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

As for the conscripts, I think the biggest problem actually is cost. I'm not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of infantry and spend the next 4 months painting them all for something of such questionable use, especially when, as mentioned, I could just make them regular infantry models and get more potential use out of them.

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game.

As for doing no damage, firstly, it's okay if they don't. In the actual time I faced off against this, two power blobs charged in and did nothing to the single unit of wraithguard, and then the next turn the striking scorpions charged in and began horribly massacring my guardsmen. I almost had the same thing happen again the next turn with some banshees except they rolled really terribly for difficult terrain. Even if wriathguard don't do a lot of damage, they make a hell of an anvil.

Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

As for the conscripts, I think the biggest problem actually is cost. I'm not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of infantry and spend the next 4 months painting them all for something of such questionable use, especially when, as mentioned, I could just make them regular infantry models and get more potential use out of them.

Pretty much this, the Eldar wraithlist is brutally hard to kill. Blobs that would crush MEQs more often than not do absolutely nothing to the wraithguard, things that typically make mincemeat out of MCs do jack diddly squat to Wraithlords, and the Wraithseer is a brutal rapemachine. I've seen freaking Trygons do atrociously little damage to the wraithguards and end up getting tarpitted for the rest of the game, accomplishing nothing. My termagaunts and tervis have also proved to do about as much to wraithguard lists as throwing rocks at them would have. And then the wraithguard's return volley blows the tervigon to hell and the termagaunts proceed to derp out and get slaughtered. Even the freaking swarmlord is only wounding those things on 4+s and his Tyrant guards need a 5+ to wound and still have to get past the armour saves, which effectively means that they will do absolutely nothing.

Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks,

Why did you commit to such a charge? The initiative was yours and you gave it away.

Ailaros wrote:
Secondly, wraithguard have the mother of all rending weapons. Shooting at anything, regardless of size, toughness, wounds, or AV, you stand a pretty decent chance of just throwing it into the warp with a single round of shooting. Hardly sounds like "never kill anything" to me.

When a footbound unit has only a 12" range, the opponent gets to decide what it shoots at, not the controller.

Also, Farseers are not a unit upgrade for Wraithguard.

All that being said, since this is a thread about the "Most Underwhelming Unit" in a codex, we shouldn't be talking about Wraithguard anyway. As poor as they are, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Rangers, and Support Batteries also appear in this codex.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Necron: Flayed ones, they're so bad they didn't even get mentioned yet. There warriors with more attack, that can infiltrate, but cant shoot. Or even affect morale(since there whole concept is melee troops that are horrifying, thats just sad) Preatorians get mentioned because they are CLOSE to useful, just a tweek to the stat line and they'd be good...

While both are pretty bad, I'd take Flayed Ones over Praetorians any day of the week. Against most troops, Flayed Ones will point for point kill more than either configuration of Praetorians, and they also will have the chance of living longer as well. However you equip them, Praetorians just don't have enough attacks to do much damage, and with just a 3+ armor save and low model count, they are almost as easy to wipe off the board as any marine unit of the same size.

DarknessEternal wrote:All that being said, since this is a thread about the "Most Underwhelming Unit" in a codex, we shouldn't be talking about Wraithguard anyway. As poor as they are, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Guardian Jetbikes, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, Rangers, and Support Batteries also appear in this codex.

While rangers are overcosted, I would hardly put them in the same camp as swooping hawks or guardians. Give them the pathfinders upgrade and put them in basically any cover and you have a 2+ invulnerable save. Put a farseer with them, or nearby and that becomes re-rollable AND you could potentially guide them as well. I've had some pretty great experiences with rangers. Picking off large portions of terminator units, and causing pinning on a fair share of fire warriors.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.


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DeadlySquirrel wrote:
Ever tried putting Asurmen into a full-on seer council? He becomes a WS8 I8 monster that (if cast) rerolls his 2+/4+ and rerolls his rerolls to hit. He may also reroll to wound. Not to mention he reduces all enemy attacks by 1

He only reduces attacks directed at him. He's his own unit and aspect powers don't go to Warlocks.

He's an IC so he can join the Warlocks. It just say's he cannot join aspects other than Dire Avengers.

Sword Brethren:

Sword Brethren-cool models, but expensive when kitted out and 1 attack base unless you buy terminator honors for 10 points/model (Though you can pick and choose). They do have a special skill, but then again they occupy the same slot as dual CML tank hunting terminators and furious charge assault terminators

Vanguard Vets. They don't come with jump packs, they're expensive, and like many other assault troops, they have a higher rate of attrition. Seriously? There's a reason most Space Marines carry guns!

StoneRaizer wrote:Wolves - Dreadnoughts. Not that they're underwhelming, it's just that there's so many other units in the Codex that do their job better. Need heavy weapons? Long Fangs. Need close combat? Grey Hunters. At AV 12/12/10 they also get taken down way too easily with all of the melta and heavy weapons in the current metagame.

It's a shame because I've always been a fan of giant robots and the fluff is really cool. :(

Whats funny is the point cost is identical to C:SM dreads -- which are units that almost every C:SM player I know uses because their one of the better options in that codex.

Not sure what that speaks to -- the strength of the SW codex or the age of the C:SM codex.


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Joey wrote:To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

I would love a DA codex update. Them and BT have to be next on the list for marine dex's one would think.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
He's an IC so he can join the Warlocks. It just say's he cannot join aspects other than Dire Avengers.

He can join them sure, but they do not benefit from any of his abilities at they are not aspect warriors.


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GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
While rangers are overcosted, I would hardly put them in the same camp as swooping hawks or guardians. Give them the pathfinders upgrade and put them in basically any cover and you have a 2+ invulnerable save. Put a farseer with them, or nearby and that becomes re-rollable AND you could potentially guide them as well

Ok, this ridiculosity has to stop.

The answer to every crummy Eldar unit cannot be "put a Farseer with them". You get 2 Farseers per army, at most. You know what's better? Putting those Farseers near the units that are good all the time. Making a good thing better is far more rewarding than making a terrible thing mediocre.

DarknessEternal wrote:Ok, this ridiculosity has to stop.

The answer to every crummy Eldar unit cannot be "put a Farseer with them". You get 2 Farseers per army, at most. You know what's better? Putting those Farseers near the units that are good all the time. Making a good thing better is far more rewarding than making a terrible thing mediocre.

I'm not saying that they need a Farseer to be good, I'm saying that a Farseer makes them better. Pathfinders are a legitimate unit by themselves. Put them in cover on or near an objective and they're very tough to dislodge through shooting. Their rifles being AP1 on a 5+ to hit and rending is also pretty brutal against TEQs. The only real downsides are the cost (which, as I said, is probably too high), and hitting them with melee, which can be said for lots of elder units.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Servitors. They are cool models but, They are just uesless.
I wish i could field them but i cant.

It is a shame, really. I'd love to include Techmarines and Servitors outside of my Thunderfire Cannon and Master of the Forge, but they just haven't had good rules since maybe 2nd edition.

Joey wrote:
To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

Death Company Tycho. Its always meh to take him.

BTNeophyte wrote:Sword Brethren:

Sword Brethren-cool models, but expensive when kitted out and 1 attack base unless you buy terminator honors for 10 points/model (Though you can pick and choose). They do have a special skill, but then again they occupy the same slot as dual CML tank hunting terminators and furious charge assault terminators

140 for 5 of them with a pair of Lightning Claws, a Power Weapon, furious charge and frag grenades is hardly "expensive". While Terminators are better (obviously, they cost more!), they also really need a Land Raider to function, whereas the Sword Brethren can just take a Rhino.

All in all I'd say there's no underwhelming unit in the Black Templars Codex, with the possibly exception being Techmarine Servitors, but they're not a unit of their own anyway.

Brother SRM wrote:

Joey wrote:
To be fair the entire DA codex is pretty out of date. It's a shame because they're the one SM chapter that actually deserve a codex.

Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

Kinda reminds me of some of the newer GK players that hang around my shop. The old timers are mostly really cool about it; they've been playing Grey Knights since you COULD play Grey Knights, so it gives them more perspective. They'll readily admit that much of the new codex is a little beardy.

Then, there are the new guys. Many of them are the type who say GK is SUPPOSED to be better, because they're better in the fluff. Not realizing that if things were the way they are in the fluff, the game wouldn't be playable.

Edit: Actually, when I think about it, that inference didn't really make much sense... I'm sorry, guys.

Edit 2: Double fail, I wasn't in the thread I thought I was. This is honestly kinda embarrassing.

ACTUALLY OT, this time, Sentinels always seemed kinda meh to me.

Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

l0k1 wrote:For GKs, id have to say the purgitation squads are pretty crappy. 4 psycannons on 5 guys sounds good but its expensive and kind of pointless when its suppose to be a unit that sits back and lays down fire, but has to be too close just to be in range.

I beg to differ on this one for 150 points 4 S6 Heavy flamers in a rhino w/ a powerfist. Very fun unit, there is just much juicy goodness in the codex that they get overlooked.

That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Ascalam wrote:That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Still seems the worst of the support weapons. D Cannons are just cool. Vibros seem to have some use by hitting multiple units. Weavers add S6 to an army full of S6.

ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Ascalam wrote:DE: Mandrakes/ Kaedruakk (or whatever) the Decapitator.

mandrakes have Awesomesauce models, but an infiltrating CC unit that doesn't even get a ranged attack until they kill someone, and which on;y has regular CC weapons, no armour and only a 5+ inv?

Not so hot.

Decapitator pops up anywhere he likes, but can't assault that turn , so he gets to wave at the guys who then level their guns and blow him away..

Far worse than anything listed above it.


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Nagashek wrote:Mandrakes. Gorgeous resculpt, awesome fluff, but take up a valuable Elite slot for two meagre S4 attacks and outflank. Overcosted AND underpowered. I might consider them for 10PPM (just to have a cheap outflanking distraction unit) but costed as they are they're not effective.

Even at 10ppm they still arent very good. Wyches have grenades, drugs, higher inititive, default shooting weapons, wych weapons, a leader with a power weapon and unlock a raider/venom for 10ppm. They have a 6+ and a 4++ in cc as opposed to a 5++ all the time.

Titan Atlas wrote:ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Only one i can think of is bombing ork biker lists and KFF's greentide, as they can ignore cover.

Even then, they are not that great.


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dæl wrote:

Ascalam wrote:That might be because they only just added the Night Spinner

I'm sure support weapons will get a boost when they do the new codex.


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dæl wrote:Eldar - Shadow Weaver seems infinitely inferior to the Night Spinner.

Still seems the worst of the support weapons. D Cannons are just cool. Vibros seem to have some use by hitting multiple units. Weavers add S6 to an army full of S6.

Couldn't agree more. My wife uses D cannons to great effect (and the new support cannon kit is awesome looking), and uses Vibrocannon against my hordier lists, but the weaver sees precious little play.

I'd not be shocked if they upped it to work like the Nightspinner in the new dex (but more fraile and static, being a gun platform)

blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

bobsy99 wrote:blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

librarian dread is an elite choice and has AV13 which is quite nice

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

bobsy99 wrote:blood angels librarian dred. tooo many points for tooo little.take a bog standard librarian and kit it out.

librarian dread is an elite choice and has AV13 which is quite nice

dc dread, furioso or librarian dread which would the majority of people pick

Ogryns. Way too expensive for what they provide.

Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Ascalam wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:ugh, whirlwinds. I don't think I'll ever find a use for them.

Only one i can think of is bombing ork biker lists and KFF's greentide, as they can ignore cover.

Even then, they are not that great.

Actually, they're not even good for bombing Ork bikers. Yes, Ork bikers always have a 4+ cover save which gets negated by the Whirlwind's incendiary shells. However, those incendiary shells are AP5, and the bikers have a 4+ save. In other words, they're not even good against Ork bikers. They're okay against horde infantry, but Thunderfire Cannons can do the same thing better, albeit without indirect fire.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

At double the points? Don't know where you're getting superior mobility from, I think moving max 12" and no weapons, and 6" one TL AC is a fair trade off for potential 12" movement, or 6" with full AC fire from the Exterminator. Lower range is also an issue for the Exterminator, and overall I just feel it is level with the Hydra, but double the points. Not to mention targeting vs skimmers.

Brother SRM wrote:
Why are Dark Angels the only chapter that meet your special criteria to be deserving of a unique codex?

The Deathwing/Ravenwing, as well as the whole heresy thing, that's pretty unique.
Compare to Space Wolves (C:SM with pelts!) or Blood angels (C:SM with jump packs!). Black Templar, fair enough I guess.

Joey wrote:
The Deathwing/Ravenwing, as well as the whole heresy thing, that's pretty unique.
Compare to Space Wolves (C:SM with pelts!) or Blood angels (C:SM with jump packs!). Black Templar, fair enough I guess.

Deathwing and Ravenwing are just taking those two units as troops. You can do the latter in the Space Marines codex, and it would be VERY easy to do the same thing with a captain in Terminator armor. Have you actually even read Codex: Space Wolves? It's very different from Codex: Space Marines while having some common ground. Blood Angels are at least more different than Dark Angels, but much of that was added in their last codex. As for the "heresy thing" that doesn't play into their rules whatsoever? That's just fluff which you can put anywhere.

Of all those that don't have their own, I think Iron Hands might deserve one. But as with SW and BA they would need some new, unique units to flesh it out. The next DA codex should introduce new units too, otherwise there really isn't any point in making it separate.

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.


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dæl wrote:Of all those that don't have their own, I think Iron Hands might deserve one. But as with SW and BA they would need some new, unique units to flesh it out. The next DA codex should introduce new units too, otherwise there really isn't any point in making it separate.

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

That's because they added in new units in their 5th editions, the original editions they came with had barely much different from the standard codex until they were updated.

As for the Dark Angels 4th edition upgrade..Jarvis just needs to stop writing the codex.

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does..

Worse yet the cost of said Punisher is the same as 3-4 Chimeras which have metal bawks going for them and output similar firepower and is dispersed to boot.


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ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yep, unless they are adding new units, all of the marine codexes are redundant, the DA codex could simply exist if they added some special characters to C:SM, add Belial and Sameal as special characters that let you take bikers and terminators as troops respectively and you are pretty much there. BA and SW aren't too bad since they both add some units, but with the DA I really feel like they could have just tossed in some special characters and special rules.

That's because they added in new units in their 5th editions, the original editions they came with had barely much different from the standard codex until they were updated.

As for the Dark Angels 4th edition upgrade..Jarvis just needs to stop writing the codex.

In all honesty many chapters could be theoretically argued to 'deserve' a codex, just as the current recipients spiffy army lists could all be argued out of their rules in favor of a handful of special characters (even the GK). Given rumors in all likelihood the DA are getting a new book/WD article sooner rather than later and currently feature an army book with an A++ build (deathwing) so they arent in a bad spot.

DarknessEternal wrote:Anything with the word "Guardian" in it.

THIS ^^

SM: Whirlwind If this cost 0 points i wouldn't take it. I would rather pay for a different heavy. Squadrons next time? Sure hope so.
DE: Mandrakes I tried to get them to work, but couldn't do it.

Vanguard vets have always given me a hard time. They just don't have enough punch.
Assault marines always treat me well. I have been known to field 30 in 2k points. Double flamer every time.

Canonesses.
They have awsome models put are terrible

Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.

Right but you could only shoot one of them if you move, and you're ignoring that the Punisher can also take those sponsons.
A punisher with HB sponsons and hull HB spits out 2.2+1=3.2 dead MEQ. In order for a vanilla Russ to get the same vs a squad in cover it would need to cover 6 marines, and NOT scatter.
You can also stick Pask in it for an (expensive) way of insta-killing any non-horde tyranids.


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lazarian wrote:
Worse yet the cost of said Punisher is the same as 3-4 Chimeras which have metal bawks going for them and output similar firepower and is dispersed to boot.

Oh you can take chimeras without a squad? I have to take them with veterans inside, usually I give them melta guns, so it's actually about 30% more expensive than a chimera...and comes with AV 14/13/11.
Seriously guys, do your research before you make posts like these.

Kain wrote:Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Heh, biovores are one of those units that I never seem to take when I need them, and when I take them, I never really need them.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Kain wrote:Carnifexes and Biovores never fail to disappoint me.

Heh, biovores are one of those units that I never seem to take when I need them, and when I take them, I never really need them.

If they had multiple options for rounds like in 4e, I'd take them in a heartbeat. Damn shame that it's bigger brother, the Dactylis, is so much better but is an apoc only unit.

I find that Vanilla Razorbacks make things pretty meh. The added support usually doesn't outweigh the drop in survivability for the troops.

I think if the Whirlwind fired more than one shot per turn, you'ld see a lot more of them.

Jefffar wrote:I think if the Whirlwind fired more than one shot per turn, you'ld see a lot more of them.

This.

I... Honestly can't think of much else, really... Is there a reason I don't see Harlequins that often?

OrangeDry wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Anything with the word "Guardian" in it.

THIS ^^

I wouldn't say anything with 'Guardian' in it.

Give Storm Guardians two flamers and a Destructorlock and you have something that can match (or in some cases beat) a Bladestorming Avenger squad in firepower, especially against a Doomed target. It works best against hordes or groups of 4+/5+ save models (in cover is even better, since that significantly reduces the power of Bladestorm, and yet doesn't affect the SGs) but even against MEQ, the amount of saves you can force is at least on par with Bladestorming Avengers.

The squad is also 25pts cheaper than a squad of 10 Avengers with a Bladestorm Exarch + Dual Catapults, and the flamers aren't affected by the BS3 of the Guardians. 10 Bladestorming Avengers will score an average of 21 hits, and the flamers against a bunched up unit can score ~6 hits per flamer, for about 18 or so; factor in the remaining 8 pistols scoring a further 4 hits for 22 total. Of those 22 hits, 16 wound on 4s, for 8 wounds, or 12 if the target is doomed, and a further 4 from Destructor, or 5 if Doomed, for 12/17 wounds. Bladestorm would cause ~11 wounds if not Doomed, and ~16 if Doomed.

Of course, that is assuming that the Flamers can score 6 hits each; in some cases they can only cause about 3-4, or even as few as 2, but in those cases, if the unit is in cover then it can still be worth it over Bladestorming Avengers if the unit doesn't have a 3+ or better save.

Hrm...Support Weapon Platforms, probably. Not insomuch as they're bad in the grand scheme of things, but when matched up against Dark Reapers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, War Walkers, and Wraithlords competing for the same slots they're not very impressive.

Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Getting 21 str 5 I 5 attacks that ignores armour for a fleet of foot unit at about 100 points is actually really sweet. For the price of an average vet squad after upgrades you can easily run in and assault an enemy unit with lots of high strength power weapon attacks when the time is right. They are like Banshees on steroids.

TBH however the Attilan models are disgusting I would probably either do a conversion to make Cadian esque rough riders, or simply buy Bretonnians.


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Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.

Right but you could only shoot one of them if you move, and you're ignoring that the Punisher can also take those sponsons.
A punisher with HB sponsons and hull HB spits out 2.2+1=3.2 dead MEQ. In order for a vanilla Russ to get the same vs a squad in cover it would need to cover 6 marines, and NOT scatter.
You can also stick Pask in it for an (expensive) way of insta-killing any non-horde tyranids.

Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

For Codex Marines

Chapter Master: why GW, why?
Servitors
Legion of the Damned
Techmarines (without a TFC)
Assault Squads
Vanguard (if you don't tool them up, and if you do they're expensive)
A lot of the special characters
Honour Guard
Tactical Squads
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Land Raider (normal)
Whirlwind

So about half the units really.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Chapter Master: why GW, why?
Servitors
Legion of the Damned
Techmarines (without a TFC)
Assault Squads
Vanguard (if you don't tool them up, and if you do they're expensive)
A lot of the special characters
Honour Guard
Tactical Squads
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Land Raider (normal)
Whirlwind

So about half the units really.

To be honest, I feel like the normal Land Raider isn't as much underwhelming as it is overpriced.

Then again, maybe it's overpriced so we don't end up spamming the gak out of them. *cough cough, razorbacks, cough*

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas

Well, let's see. For 55pts you're getting a unit that can charge 12", first time strikes at Str 5 with a PW and has Krak Grenades in their inventory.

Pretty good in Guard.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas

Well, let's see. For 55pts you're getting a unit that can charge 12", first time strikes at Str 5 with a PW and has Krak Grenades in their inventory.

Pretty good in Guard.

That has WS3, and standard guard survivability, not to mention their real life price is just astonishing.

I don't mind them needing it to be on the charge, but not giving them the double attack from having a CCW and it is just kinda pointless to me, if they had that I'd think a bit more highly of them.

Avatar 720 wrote:Maybe they don't like mushrooms.

This is why i dont play orks tabletop ><

Vanguard... want to play 2x the price for assault marines?
Who cinematically charge from deepstriking? Or mishap for that matter....

And even assault marines are overpriced!

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Oh. Heres another. Destroyer lord. Are you KIDDING me? No phase shifter! Cool, lets throw this guy thatd be awesome for JI...er...wait a second...he just DIED. Gr. With a phaseshifter hed single handedly make triarch praetorians awesome. Hed make the jetbikes we have Awesome. Instead, hes just an extra pointed destroyer, which, they too are not the best unit. I love them, i think they are neat, and its a really tough tie for me to choose to fill my fast with destroyers or wraiths, but come on, they die like icecream melting left in a closed car in the middle of the desert at 3pm during a heat wave.

I ALWAYS get them fled off the board. They would be that much more awesome if they were EL or could take phase shifters.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Yeah, I've gotta say, that one doesn't make much sense. A CC beast, and a Dread with the ability to reroll saves? That's gotta be worth something.

Guardians definitely. But in general it's the Eldar troop choices that really makes the codex non-enjoyable to play for me, not even Dire Avengers are all that great.

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game. *snip*

Isn't a power blob less expensive than a 10 wraith + Spirit Seer?

So, essentially you used two tarpits to tarpit a tarpit when you could've used half a tarpit for same result.

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Have you actually used them? I stick them in my mech guard list and they sweep in turn 2 or 3 and obliterate pretty much whatever enemy assault unit I want them to.

Buttons wrote:
Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

I did't mention light infantry, I said MEQ. People assume the Punisher is anti-light infantry for some reason. I may as well say "Well plasma vets are rubbish vs AV 13 so don't bother with them".
Punishers can and do rip apart MEQs with ease, and more reliably than pie-plate Russes. Only real issue is inability to kill light armour, which the pie Russ can do pretty well.

The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

My favorite Land Raider variant is the Ares, but it doesn't have an official model. Two heavy flamers, a Demolisher cannon, and a siege shield just spell pure fun to me.

AnomanderRake wrote:My favorite Land Raider variant is the Ares, but it doesn't have an official model. Two heavy flamers, a Demolisher cannon, and a siege shield just spell pure fun to me.

You forgot the hull mounted twin-linked assault cannon.
And all for...300 points. Sigh.

Flayed Ones.

I mean.

Really?

They sucked in the old codex, so they thought they'd make them worse for you..

Then give you incredibly dodgy looking models just to make absolutely sure you'd never use them..

At least Mandrakes look good on the shelf

You forgot about the fact that they are the most expensive unit in the current codex (money-wise).

7€ / model...so basically, you pay 1,85€ for 1 point if you buy the box.

Comparison: 12 Warriors + 3 Scarabs are 201 points.

feth yeah GW, way to go!

EnormousName wrote:
And even assault marines are overpriced!

18pts for a WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 Ld8/9 3+sv unit with ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and BP/CCW sporting 12" movement and an 18" assault threat range is overcosted?



When did I miss that train?

Vaktathi wrote:

EnormousName wrote:
And even assault marines are overpriced!

18pts for a WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 Ld8/9 3+sv unit with ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and BP/CCW sporting 12" movement and an 18" assault threat range is overcosted?



When did I miss that train?

I wouldn't say they're overcosted in the slightest; they're just really underwhelming compared to other close combat troops. Then again, I'm of the opinion that bikers and jump pack troops should all have Hit and Run, or some similar permutation thereof.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...


Also vespids. Why would anyone even use those?


Random note here, my most overwhelming unit (I only use this on occasion, like against orks) is a LR executioner with two plasma sponsons. REALLY expensive as far as points go, but worth it.

GalacticDefender wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...

If Hydras move (which they should) then they can only shoot one autocannon. So assuming any movement whatsoever, the Exterminators equals in firepower.
Also one AV 14/13 is far more durable than two AV 12/10s.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Yeah, I've gotta say, that one doesn't make much sense. A CC beast, and a Dread with the ability to reroll saves? That's gotta be worth something.

The Venerable is very overcosted, and the Ironclad only functions in melta range of the enemy and costs more than a normal dreadnought. Perhaps not "underwhelming" so much as overpriced or overspecialised. Also 3 WS4 attacks do not a close combat beast make.

Joey wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...

If Hydras move (which they should) then they can only shoot one autocannon. So assuming any movement whatsoever, the Exterminators equals in firepower.
Also one AV 14/13 is far more durable than two AV 12/10s.

My Hydra barely ever has to move. I'll concede the point about durability and the one about price though. I'd rather take a vanilla russ over the exterminator however, but that's a different point entirely.

OT, Ogryn are pretty disappointing this season apparently.

Joey wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Have you actually used them? I stick them in my mech guard list and they sweep in turn 2 or 3 and obliterate pretty much whatever enemy assault unit I want them to.

Buttons wrote:
Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

I did't mention light infantry, I said MEQ. People assume the Punisher is anti-light infantry for some reason. I may as well say "Well plasma vets are rubbish vs AV 13 so don't bother with them".
Punishers can and do rip apart MEQs with ease, and more reliably than pie-plate Russes. Only real issue is inability to kill light armour, which the pie Russ can do pretty well.

I have actually used rough riders before. Buddy of mine loaned me some bikes to use as counts as for a few games. Was really debating on making a bunch of conversions to justify using them. Sadly they always under performed. By time they generally got to combat (including being a real stickler about cover) the local meta makes it so they just get slaughtered whole sale. Not worth it. And the one time use of the lances sucks. Maybe if they didn't just lose their one time use I'd be okay with it, but because it's just gone....no.

The Space Pope, The only thing in existance that makes you pay a whopping 250 points to make your army WORSE.
They couldn t have given us tau a worse slap to the face.

Nork. I love everything about him (fluff and rules-wise), if only he didn't cost so many points! What were they thinking, seriously?

Mogul Kamir.
Those rough riders whose mobility you wanted to exploit so you could hit that termi squad and frak em up with their one-use explosive lances? Forget them, they now charge the nearest enemy, how useful....

Daedricbob wrote:Mogul Kamir.
Those rough riders whose mobility you wanted to exploit so you could hit that termi squad and frak em up with their one-use explosive lances? Forget them, they now charge the nearest enemy, how useful....

He also has Furious Charge, which is amazingly helpful when your weapon forces you to strike at S5 and I5 when charging into combat, and is unnaffected by FC. Also tons of fun when you realise that he won't be alive long enough to lead a second charge into anything in order to gain the bonus.

Juniperius wrote:The Space Pope, The only thing in existance that makes you pay a whopping 250 points to make your army WORSE.
They couldn t have given us tau a worse slap to the face.

So, wait, you just payed for a Land Raider and got a deadweight instead?

Why do you hate Tau, GW?

Why?

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

Hikaru-119 wrote:
I have actually used rough riders before. Buddy of mine loaned me some bikes to use as counts as for a few games. Was really debating on making a bunch of conversions to justify using them. Sadly they always under performed. By time they generally got to combat (including being a real stickler about cover) the local meta makes it so they just get slaughtered whole sale. Not worth it. And the one time use of the lances sucks. Maybe if they didn't just lose their one time use I'd be okay with it, but because it's just gone....no.

That's fair enough, in my games as mech guard I nearly always find enemy elite assault units running around my lines, so rough riders don't struggle to find and engage targets. I assumed other gaurd armies would be the same.
Out of interest, who do you usually play against? And are you mech/foot/hybrid/whatever?

Joey wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:I have actually used rough riders before. Buddy of mine loaned me some bikes to use as counts as for a few games. Was really debating on making a bunch of conversions to justify using them. Sadly they always under performed. By time they generally got to combat (including being a real stickler about cover) the local meta makes it so they just get slaughtered whole sale. Not worth it. And the one time use of the lances sucks. Maybe if they didn't just lose their one time use I'd be okay with it, but because it's just gone....no.

That's fair enough, in my games as mech guard I nearly always find enemy elite assault units running around my lines, so rough riders don't struggle to find and engage targets. I assumed other gaurd armies would be the same.
Out of interest, who do you usually play against? And are you mech/foot/hybrid/whatever?

Well, Rough Riders are the bane of Terminators. Str 5 Power Weapons at Initiative 5? Striking before LCs, 10 Attacks form a 5 man unit, Power Weapons that wound on 3+.

Pretty damned effective, being able to decimate or make a unit of Termies run (unless they have TH/SS, in which case you're screwed.)

Furies...Just why??? If they were troops, with a price cut, they might just be useful. Even Beasts of Nurgle and Screamers can have uses (principally in a Tallyman list though..) but Furies?? Not with a thousand foot pole..

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Joey wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:
I have actually used rough riders before. Buddy of mine loaned me some bikes to use as counts as for a few games. Was really debating on making a bunch of conversions to justify using them. Sadly they always under performed. By time they generally got to combat (including being a real stickler about cover) the local meta makes it so they just get slaughtered whole sale. Not worth it. And the one time use of the lances sucks. Maybe if they didn't just lose their one time use I'd be okay with it, but because it's just gone....no.

That's fair enough, in my games as mech guard I nearly always find enemy elite assault units running around my lines, so rough riders don't struggle to find and engage targets. I assumed other gaurd armies would be the same.
Out of interest, who do you usually play against? And are you mech/foot/hybrid/whatever?

I normally run two vendettas, two russes, 2 chimeras (for company command squad and platoon command squad), harker with her girls carrying melta, assorted heavy weapons, and a blob. Odd mix, but the synergy works very well. Most units don't make it to my lines. And those that do usually get tar pitted against my blob.

I usually fight dark eldar, tau (well I used to a lot), grey knights, space wolves and nids. Hence my odd all comers list.

Yeah, the hydra v. exterminator debate becomes really, really obvious once you face off across ML long fang spam, or against vendettas or hydras. Or scatter lasers. There is a lot of stuff out there that can hurt a hydra. Exterminators are more of a pain in the butt to kill.

That's the point of russes in general compare to their non-russ counterparts. They do half the damage for their points, but they survive for twice as long, which evens it out.

As for rough riders, they're a fantastic unit, but you've really, really got to use them right or else they're just expensive guardsmen.

If you put them in reserve, turn 2 or 3 they show up and can threaten anything on your half of the board without being able to be shot at first. And by threaten, I mean obliterate a shocking amount in close combat.

Time 2 Roll wrote:Pryovore

Flamers are cool but this thing is long dead before it ever gets in shooting range.

Then put two in a Pod and drop them RIGHT NEXT to something. It is how I use them. DO they die quickly? Yeah, but they can melt a squad or two before they go out. At least, of non-MEQ opponents. My buddy who plays IG HATES my pyrovores.

For the same points there's so many better uses of that elite slot.

Two heavy flamers in a pod is the best you can come up with? Really?

rigeld2 wrote:For the same points there's so many better uses of that elite slot.

Two heavy flamers in a pod is the best you can come up with? Really?

My buddy uses masses of foot guard in close defensive positions. Yeah. It works really damn well.

I didn't say it works against everybody. Hell, it doesn't work in MOST cases. But if you have some bunched up enemies they can roast them and make their points up. Plus the spore sticks around for an extra turn or two doing damage.

Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

DA Assault Squad gets my vote, they're expensive, subpar performance in both shooting and cc, cannot take melta, and take up slots that could be used for either bikes (possibly troops) or Typhoons. Don't get me wrong, they do fine sitting behind devastators and charging whatever gets too close, but they are a bit expensive for a throwaway unit.

Meh, most of the stuff in the DA codex is underwhelming. Only DW and RW aren't (90 points for a Tac squad? Really?), at least compared to the vanilla book.

Most units in the Tau army that isn't a Hammerhead or Forgeworld.

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Except rhinos, chimeras, pretty much anything AV12 or below.
6 Strength 8 shots against anything in range regardless of LOS, and virtually impossible to get cover from? You're using them wrong, friend.

Yeah, my DE would disagree about their lack of killing power

So would my Orks, for that matter...

They won't kill LR's in one-shot drops, but try them out on trukks and Raiders sometime


Unless you meant Tyrant Guard (the bodyguard for Tyrants)?

Unless you meant Tyrant Guard (the bodyguard for Tyrants)?

It's likely he did, since tanking power, yes lack of really good killing seems to match those rather well.

Fenrisian Wolves!

Overpriced Ork Boyz with no guns, a worse leadership, and no furious charge.

Thanks, GW! I wanted wolves in my Space Wolves, but you fethed them up! Now all I have is an overpriced Harassment unit!

the most pathictic unit in the necron army is prations or what ever thier is 200 points for jump packs power wepons and a wepon that only shoots if you get within 6 inches when they basically they use them on terminators once and die i would prefere thier old cousins the piriars and thier ablity to kill all they see are the triarch terminators or powerful assult marines i don't care for those pistols that give them a secound shot in close combat put them against the number of imortals point wise who wins? the answer is obious [spoiler] imortals
"The triarch a pityful thing trying to unity yet thy are so weak they will crumble before they can stop anything" every Intelgent thing that thinks about the triarch pratorians
3,100

robot deathrider wrote:the most pathictic unit in the necron army is prations or what ever thier is 200 points for jump packs power wepons and a wepon that only shoots if you get within 6 inches when they basically they use them on terminators once and die i would prefere thier old cousins the piriars and thier ablity to kill all they see are the triarch terminators or powerful assult marines i don't care for those pistols that give them a secound shot in close combat put them against the number of imortals point wise who wins? the answer is obious [spoiler] imortals
"The triarch a pityful thing trying to unity yet thy are so weak they will crumble before they can stop anything" every Intelgent thing that thinks about the triarch pratorians
3,100

...What?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

robot deathrider wrote:the most pathictic unit in the necron army is prations or what ever thier is 200 points for jump packs power wepons and a wepon that only shoots if you get within 6 inches when they basically they use them on terminators once and die i would prefere thier old cousins the piriars and thier ablity to kill all they see are the triarch terminators or powerful assult marines i don't care for those pistols that give them a secound shot in close combat put them against the number of imortals point wise who wins? the answer is obious [spoiler] imortals
"The triarch a pityful thing trying to unity yet thy are so weak they will crumble before they can stop anything" every Intelgent thing that thinks about the triarch pratorians
3,100

...What?

I think he's saying Praetorians are pathetic compared to the Pariahs, and something about survivability, then saying that it'd be better just to purchase immortals...

I yearn for the day that forum posting via phone is outlawed.

Nids: Ripper Swarms

BA: Toss up between Tactical or Techmarine

GK: Strike Squad, as with the Vanilla Tactical Marines, the GK jack of all trades is a master of none, and I can never see taking them over termies/paladins/purifiers unless its a really low point game or ur making a DK/Psyfleman/Storm Raven spam list...

The space pope for tau-So I pay 205 points for a dude who is instakilled by T6, has no guns or power weapons in his unit and fights at I1. Yeah.... that is cool. OH WAIT, he can go and die and make my army run away. If they don't, then my units who are completely awful in CC get furious charge. Oh boy, now were hitting at the same time as guardsman, but now were S4, because we charged instead of shooting. And we get re rolls to hit....oh wait, they have a power weapon?

Absolute ass. More ass than vespids(at least vespids can kill marines in theory).

As far as eldar, why is everybody hating on guardians? They crumple like wet cardboard, but they get special weapons. Triple flamers and a destructor lock to rival bladestorm. Even as defenders they can do damage to infantry and light armor with a scatter laser. No they are not great, but compared to our worst unit they are.

Shining spears...holy god are these absolutely awful. Not space pope awful, but a unit of 5 costs more and is still easy to kill. At least they have power weapons...on the charge.

Raptors or Chaos Spawn. Either are worthless and a waste

Vanilla SM - Vanguard Vets
Blood Angels - Tactical Squad
Tau - Vespids
Dark Eldar - Mandrakes

Longfangs.

terranarc wrote:Longfangs.

Care elaborating? I assume there's some rationale behind your comment.

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

My 2 pence worth?

Guard is a tie between Medusa seige guns(there essentialy assault guns that are crappily armoured and open topped) and the Deathstrike-were out of an apocalypse game am i going to be able to feild it?

for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

In other news, do noise marines even have a use?

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

In other news, do noise marines even have a use?

Actually they surprisingly do! Ignore the blastmaster and the sonic weapons, and give them an aspiring champion with a Doom Siren, and you have a very effective MEQ/GEQ Cover killing beast, makes for a far better MEQ killer than the dedicated MEQ killing Thousand Sons.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Doom sirens are about the only thing going for them though.

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

I think he means Techmarines. Which are a lot of points for a one wound model, don't do a whole lot, and compete with all the cool stuff in the elite slot. I could see fielding them in apoc games where you don't have to worry about the FOC. In a normal game I have no space for them, even if I was willing to pay the points.

Fenrisian wolves, Unless your fighting a Marine list of pure Tac squads. even then . they will never get to the enemy. and i always wanted to have massive horde of these little pups but they truely will only be a cheap bullet sponge.

- FrostTooth

Nevelon wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

I think he means Techmarines.

But otherwise I agree.

Noise marines also hit before most marines, are fearless, and wield 2 weapons. With the doom siren and a power weapon they become pretty effective marine hunters even when de meched. Just make sure your army has lots of melta and maybe slap a combi onto the rhino.

Csm really benefit from a unit or two that are there to mop up what falls out of the transports or disruptive/ defensive elements that aren't berserkers.

Ok, I'll cut to what i actually mean: Why can't fluffy noise marines with sonic weapons be viable? Or, rather, costed well? If they weren't 25ppm I'd take them.

l0k1 wrote:For GKs, id have to say the purgitation squads are pretty crappy. 4 psycannons on 5 guys sounds good but its expensive and kind of pointless when its suppose to be a unit that sits back and lays down fire, but has to be too close just to be in range.

So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

In CSM its either Possessed or the Dread, possessed are too random for their own good. And the Dread because, well its the only unit in the game that can intentionally hurt its own force (other than Kharn... but there's a reason they call him the betrayer)

In SM its either scout bikes or TFC reasons have been listed by others...

So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

They are basically the same as Tyranid Hive Guard with a better tank buster and unit breaker without multiple wounds. Take that as you will.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

Kain wrote:

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

Well, why not? They come with TL-LCs, why not TL-ACs?

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

A repentia squad is a chainfist with 4-9 ablative wounds. Each of whom ALSO have chainfists. And fleet. Repentia will wreck nearly anything on the board except massed power weapons, even without their act of faith. The lack of a transport is pretty grim, though.

Honestly, the most useless unit in the SoB codex for my money is... the basic SoB squad. If they didn't hold objectives you couldn't pay me to take them.

liquidjoshi wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

ALL GREY KNIGHTS ARE



As it is i also have to mention the Armoured sentinel. for the same cost i can get twice the firepower and the ability to transport 12 troops. the weapon upgrades are over priced-5pts for a heavy flamer over a multilaser?!?! No way!!! That said they do have their uses as infantry support walkers......

Black Templars: PA Sword Brethren.
Imperial Guard: Punisher Leman Russ, Ratlings.
Orks: Stormboyz, Looted Wagons.
Eldar: Warp Spiders, Bright Lances, Guardians.
Dark Eldar: Hellions.
Space Wolves: Blood Claws.
Tau: Stealth Suits.
Chaos Marines: Noise Marines.
Dark Angels: Scout Squads.

I have 3.

Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

Big Gunz: Not worth the cost

Stormboyz: Far too expensive for a unit no better in combat than ordinary boyz. With the added bonus that they kill themselves from time to time!

For my Nids. Units I will never use again:

Pyrovore - never gets to kill anything, dangerous to own troops
Lictor/deathleaper - reserve bonus is broken, T4
Biovores/spore mines - vehicles just run over the mines, only useful against all-foot lists
Harpy - most obvious model on the table, but with a 4+ armour save
Ripper swarms - not even if free from the PoM.
Sky-slasher - faster rubbish is generally still rubbish
Old one eye - 260 pts of slow moving, no mycetic spore, fail

That's just the real bad stuff, never mind the marginally bad stuff such as Tyrannofex (overcosted and WS3), Hormogaunts (need all the upgrades to be worthwhile and then why not just take genestealers), warriors/shrikes/raveners (nice if they weren't missile bait), mawloc (1 attack every 2 turns makes this too pricey), venomthrope (nothing wrong per se just 4th in elites behind hive guard, zoanthropes, ymgarl), Parasite of Mortrex (see Wraith for how much this should really cost), most carnifex builds (again, see Tomb Spyder for cost comparison).

No surprise that most competitive Nid lists are very similar when 2/3 of the codex has real issues. Rant over.

Hollowman wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

A repentia squad is a chainfist with 4-9 ablative wounds. Each of whom ALSO have chainfists. And fleet. Repentia will wreck nearly anything on the board except massed power weapons, even without their act of faith. The lack of a transport is pretty grim, though.

Honestly, the most useless unit in the SoB codex for my money is... the basic SoB squad. If they didn't hold objectives you couldn't pay me to take them.

Repentia are still uncontrollable since they have Rage. The only way to control them is to borrow a transport from another unit and arrange your units so they can't see the enemy. There big problem isn't assaulting its surviving to the assault. Some bolt rounds and a flamer hit and they will be losing more than a couple fo models. Even 9 bolt pitsols and a flamer from a Tac sqaud and you are looking at like 3 dead. The number goes up with more shots naturally. They just aren't that tough for an assault unit. I still say the Penitent Engines are more useless for Sisters. They are in direct competition with Exorcists, they are sqaudroned, 11/11/10 open-topped, have Rage, and are way over-priced.

master of ordinance wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

ALL GREY KNIGHTS ARE



As it is i also have to mention the Armoured sentinel. for the same cost i can get twice the firepower and the ability to transport 12 troops. the weapon upgrades are over priced-5pts for a heavy flamer over a multilaser?!?! No way!!! That said they do have their uses as infantry support walkers......

Which is why you take Scout Sentinels...

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

Marzillius wrote:
My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

I disagree Mugan Ra and Fuegan are both great and the striking scorpions PL (kharadras?) Is great fun in foot lists.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

terranarc wrote:Longfangs.

Care elaborating? I assume there's some rationale behind your comment.

I think he's on crack.

C:SM most underwhelming....Vanilla Assault Marines, no where near enough punch for an assault unit. Or the humble Tech Marine, if he came with a free servo harness at 50pts he would be credible. As an Iron Hands player this pains me more than you could know.

EDIT - I do like the idea of a Dakka Landraider, e.g 3 x Twin linked Autocannons. Maybe it would be called the Rifleman Ultra.

Foolish_Hyena wrote:

Marzillius wrote:
My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

I disagree Mugan Ra and Fuegan are both great and the striking scorpions PL (kharadras?) Is great fun in foot lists.

Close enough. Karandras. I agree with you though. Having said that, I do think that Fuegan is a bit overkill. You're paying over 200pt and yes, he will kill any vehicle, but a Fire Dragon squad would do it just as well in most cases for less points. So I'd probably take Fuegan out of that list and replace him with Jain Zar, she's a CC beast and the cheapest Pheonix Lord.

The Whirlwind.

Necrons - Stalker. Yawn

Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!! AND, Mephiston(is just as tough), and your average captain with a Fist can hit harder. And don't even bother bringing him vs GK. The other would be what was once my favorite. Dark Reapers, They cost 35pts per man, and are almost worthless now, bc of all the GK/Blood Angels Deepstriking-my-whole-army with buffs to reserve rolls. Their dead before they even get to fire if your opponent has any sense. From another codex though, would be mandrakes, and Kerudrak, they just sit there for a turn, and get mowed. They are way too expensive for what they do. Same thing with Lictors, but then again, what in the Nids dex IS worth a squirt of piss?

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

My choice would be Chaos Furies.

Hey look, here's a pure assault unit, but then let's also handi-cap with by;
- giving them WS3/I3 so that they almost always strike last except vs necrons & orks...
- no options for upgrades like a power weapon or rending...
- is forced to always deep strike into play!!!

And all for the low-low cost of a Grey Hunter?!!

Hell, even Beasts of Nurgle are more usefull than these worthless terds. Sure Furies are jump infantry, but they bounce off of pretty much everything except guardsmen, grots & fire warriors, and let's face it, it's not like Daemons have trouble removing those targets to begin with!

Hopefully with the rummors of new models for them, and the possibility of a new book within a year or so, Furies make a comeback and become a unit more on par with the likes of hormagaunts and act as a cheap throw-away tarpit/sacrificial speed bump instead of their current over-cosed steaming terd 'outdone by every other unit in the codex'!

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Agreed, I think the only the spears are a truly bad unit. Though I have bought a multitude of them for the jetbikes.

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!! AND, Mephiston(is just as tough), and your average captain with a Fist can hit harder.

The Avatar is 'fing awesome! Pair him up with Eldrad and watch him take someone's lunch money.
Seriously, the Eldar are not hurting for suck units. Hawks come to mind.
Why would you say the Avatar?

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

TermiesInARaider wrote:
Assault Marines. I feel like I would be a lot more thrilled about them, if kitting them out wasn't so damn expensive. IIRC, adding jump packs costs over 100 points? Same deal with Vanguard Vets and Devastators. They'd be so much more awesome if I didn't need to spend so much on them.

Assault marines are good if you deep strike them behind a unit like the Devastators to either kill them or to stop them from shooting for a few rounds.

Who takes Whirlwinds?

I mean, seriously, if you aren't list tailoring, why would you ever bring one? Maybe sixth would change that, but given the versatility of Preds or Vindi (and for me, Long Fangs), who takes that?!?

Most useless in my Codex would be either the Whirlwind or anything to do with Blood Claws. I don't understand what inspired them to gimp assault marines further, make our bikes crap, and then give us a "second troop choice" that no one in their right mind would take. Claim fluff or w/e, but why would I take a unit that HAS to have a babysitter in the literal sense?

SM: I was going to put ASM, but those are actually competent and cheap for their job compared to Vanguard Vets. I pay more than an normal ASM to get an extra attack and Ld? And NOT to have a jump pack? Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks. Manchu If you buy them jp's they cost almost as much as a terminator. Only they're in PA. With no power weapon.

BA: DC Tycho. Tac marines and techmarines at least have a use or are just simply outclassed. DC Tycho just sucks to me because he's basically a sucky Mephiston. Who is T4.

Rampage wrote:

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

I understand their effectiveness, but that assumes they remain unmolested.

If any decent shooty army comes up against you, the lootas get primaried, run away and your 150 points goes bye bye.
This sorry scenario happens more often than not. Potentially good? yes, problem is they never get the chance to BE good.

CruelCoin wrote:

Rampage wrote:

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

I understand their effectiveness, but that assumes they remain unmolested.

If any decent shooty army comes up against you, the lootas get primaried, run away and your 150 points goes bye bye.
This sorry scenario happens more often than not. Potentially good? yes, problem is they never get the chance to BE good.

This has never been a problem with my Lootas. When I come up against a primarily shooty army they tend to aim for my Nobz squads first and formost. The last thing that they want is to have 2 fully kitted out Nobz squads hitting their lines, as a primarily shooty army won't have anything to deal with that in HTH. Additionally, if you have more than one unit of Lootas (decent size), and they're in cover, it is unlikely that both will be forced to run, especially when an Ork army is likely to have a lot of CC, and that is what is going to be causing your opponents shooting based army more of a problem, not the Lootas.

Anything from Codex Eldar from cover to cover has been a real let down but the guardians are the biggest let down of them all ... I don't even get mad at the Eldar when we lose.... just... well disappointed... and from GK I'd have to say Daemon Hosts.

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

I feel like no EW is more of an old codex issue, rather than anything else, Back then, you didn't really need EW quite as much, now, it's auto take for my SW. Or anyone playing against GK. I'd almost bet money that in the next Eldar dex, he gets EW, and a bit of an overhaul. I mean, Mephiston has 1 more wound than the Avatar, that just sounds so stupid it makes my head hurt. And your right, he WAS a good value, now, not so much, GK laugh at him, bc of him being a demon, and he also takes up an Eldar HQ slot, which could be filled with say Jain Zahr, who if memory serves has S7, and 5 attacks on the charge, and can't be sniped out by long fangs/sternguard spam. You do make some good points though, I just think that he's underwhelming for the builds people run these days with Eldar, and the things people have as far as wargear/codex's. He just hasn't aged as gracefully as say Eldrad, or Yriel for example.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Ok, I didn't think he was immune to ID originally.

liquidjoshi wrote:

Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

I wish I had the Eldar book to get the exact quote, because I'm 100000% certain this is wrong. He may be effected by abilities that effect Daemons, but I don't think that means all the special rules for Daemons in their own codex; surely he'd have to deepstrike too as part of a wave? Which would mean buying a seperate book just for the Avatar. I think "Counts as a daemon" is what GW were getting at, not "Should use all the rules for the Chaos Daemons too!"

Also, you generally don't defer to other codices for ruleset info, he counts as a daemon only for and I quote "weapons and abilities that affect daemons" and it does specify under his special rule "Daemon" the particulars of him counting as a daemon. In short, it's mostly a nerf, but on the bright side, it grants him his 3+ armor, and 4+ invuln.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:SM: I was going to put ASM, but those are actually competent and cheap for their job compared to Vanguard Vets. I pay more than an normal ASM to get an extra attack and Ld? And NOT to have a jump pack? Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks. Manchu If you buy them jp's they cost almost as much as a terminator. Only they're in PA. With no power weapon.

BA: DC Tycho. Tac marines and techmarines at least have a use or are just simply outclassed. DC Tycho just sucks to me because he's basically a sucky Mephiston. Who is T4.

Errr have you ever used Tycho? He gives his entire army his leadership value, he's shooty and good in CC, he is at his best with Shooty units like Tacticals. Oh and he comes in two flavours normal and Rage, DC Tycho is a bit of liability I'll grant you (due to rage) but he is far from Underwhelming, which is the premise of the OP. He is also cheap initially, alittle expensive for the Rage upgrade, but against Orks he is Draigo on Steroids. .

DC add on Tycho gains +1 on WS, -1 on BS, +1 Attack, -2 Ld. He has all the DC stuff, Rage, FnP, Fearless, Relentless (actually works for him), Fleet (don't get why cause the rest of the DC don't have it), PE Orks and FC. He also still has Dead Man's Hand and the Blood Song weapon.

Priests or Ogryns due to point cost ): suuuuuuuuucks how overpriced the only good CC IG units are.

andrewm9 wrote:
Repentia are still uncontrollable since they have Rage. The only way to control them is to borrow a transport from another unit and arrange your units so they can't see the enemy. There big problem isn't assaulting its surviving to the assault. Some bolt rounds and a flamer hit and they will be losing more than a couple fo models. Even 9 bolt pitsols and a flamer from a Tac sqaud and you are looking at like 3 dead. The number goes up with more shots naturally. They just aren't that tough for an assault unit. I still say the Penitent Engines are more useless for Sisters. They are in direct competition with Exorcists, they are sqaudroned, 11/11/10 open-topped, have Rage, and are way over-priced.

With 6+/4+ save they are almost as tough to kill as power armor units, and they get into combat much faster. I do steal a transport for them, but I've seen folks run bigger units up the board too with pretty good results. Rage can hurt against fast enemies, but for the most part you don't have to worry where they go, since most things they hit they kill. The presumed nerf to Feel No Pain is going to hurt them upcoming though, alas.

trephines wrote:Priests or Ogryns due to point cost ): suuuuuuuuucks how overpriced the only good CC IG units are.

Got to be honest, I forgot about Ogryn's. They do need a buff to make them as hard as they should be, the guard lack tough assault units that are good in CC, It would be good to see them get a price break or maybe something to give them an edge.

 Kain wrote:

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

Done deal, except im running it with a typhoon launcher and ten man cap on house rules, helios for tourney

Ogryns. Not only do I never encounter a situation with my guard that could have been done better with Ogryns, they also cost way too many points!

Plague flies, from chaos daemons. They release something fast for nurgle, and make it crap

Pyrovores, nuff said.

 Rampage wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Rampage wrote:

bobamus87 wrote:Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!!

Again, have to disagree with this. He's only 155pts, you can't really expect Eternal Warrior for such a low points cost. Plus he's T6 anyway protecting him from being doubled out so the only way to ID him is through something which specifically states so like a Force Weapon. He is great value for what you're paying, the only reason you don't see him more often is because he doesn't fit in well with a Mechdar build, he is absolutely fantastic for Footdar, specifically because of his 12" radius fearless bubble. I never leave home without him.

Isn't the Avatar a Daemon and thus immune to ID anyway?

Good point, it does say in his entry that he is effected by abilities which effect Daemons. although the instant death immunity is listed in the Daemons codex I'd assume that as a Daemon the Avatar would be effected by it too just as he is effected by other things which effect Daemons.

Daemons lost EW now, and the rulebook daemon rule only gives you fear and 5+ invun

Experiment 626 wrote:
My choice would be Chaos Furies.

Hey look, here's a pure assault unit, but then let's also handi-cap with by;
- giving them WS3/I3 so that they almost always strike last except vs necrons & orks...
- no options for upgrades like a power weapon or rending...
- is forced to always deep strike into play!!!

And all for the low-low cost of a Grey Hunter?!!

Hell, even Beasts of Nurgle are more usefull than these worthless terds. Sure Furies are jump infantry, but they bounce off of pretty much everything except guardsmen, grots & fire warriors, and let's face it, it's not like Daemons have trouble removing those targets to begin with!

Hopefully with the rummors of new models for them, and the possibility of a new book within a year or so, Furies make a comeback and become a unit more on par with the likes of hormagaunts and act as a cheap throw-away tarpit/sacrificial speed bump instead of their current over-cosed steaming terd 'outdone by every other unit in the codex'!

Darn I was about to say furies, by the time you add a mark on they are no longer that cheap, I think you would have to put a herald in there for them to be any good but with only 1 attack each, 2 on charge, I cant really see the point in them purely because of leadership 2, leadership tests will oblierate them :(

For CSM: anyone who said chaos spawn doesn't know how to play then properly. Go on YouTube and watch some battle reports where they are used in a good way, they are strong.

I would have to say possessed, I have never really seen them do any good, but their models look awesome.