I'm seeing a bit of a trend, an understandable one, and I figure, why not?

Discuss.


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The Sanguinary Guard might get a little more usefulness in the coming adjustments, so that's nice.



UPDATE:

I'll be linking to BA lists posted throughout this thread (and ones on the army list forum that gain particular attention) for those interested in trying out different approaches or even just experimenting. Seeing as the lists are going to be brand-shiny-new adjustments thanks to 6th ed, be sure to remember that and some may, again, being brand new, be untested to use with caution.

But obviously there will be feedback, criticisms, or even performance reviews of the lists! I'll try and add commentary to some of these based on the aforementioned feedback and such, just for quick reference.

Mordechai's Defensive BA lineup with SW allies:




Stoffer's Revised lists (awaiting feedback!!)



Horst's Sang Guard/termie rush (1850 pts)

Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

yeah, I love me my jump infantry so this makes me pleased, and again, I think it'll make my sanguinary guard more viable...

haha, I got a pack of them for my birthday recently, and I hadn't asked for them, but now....hmm..

But yeah, exciting.

Powerweapons not negating your FNP will be annoying, but charging into orks that shoot at BS 1 will still whittle some of the numbers down.

Your Vehicles being glanced to death makes enemy infantry more of a threat and makes Assault cannons better.

Not having an invulnerable save will be less dooming to Mephiston as it takes a powerfist to negate that, and those go at I1, compared to his I7 nonsense...

Melta's taking a hit will make the tactic of suicide drops being a little worse...

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

So far Run is still in. Plus penalties for a mishap during Deep Strike has been softened.

l0k1 wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

So far Run is still in. Plus penalties for a mishap during Deep Strike has been softened.

From all of the bitching from DE/Ork/eldar assault based armies, I don't think run is in anymore. I may be wrong but there is a ton of bitching about shorter charge distances.

I often use Meph, the Lord of Pubstomping, and while the nerf of PW to ap3 hurts me against a few things... the obvious one being terminators.... it hurts me against the things I didn't really want Meph to get into CC with anyway. Meph gets in return: a potentially bigger charge distance (and he has fleet just in case the 2d6 isn't enough). And now I can pretty much kill most vehicles without rolling for dmg with my going Super Saiyan with that s10 causing auto pens against most vehicles anyway.

Yeah. I'll take that.

Yes, bot Astoroth and Dante just became more grusome
Axes

Anpu42 wrote:Yes, bot Astoroth and Dante just became more grusome
Axes

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, beaaaautiful


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Cause I like Dante, and I've always considered giving Astorath a shot, even though he's not really my style.

Also, quick question about Sang Guard -

They have Glaive Encarmines, but 2 of the 5 are very visibly axes in a pack. That...doesn't mean anything, right?

Right?

I mean, that'd be interesting is all.

Titan Atlas wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Yes, bot Astoroth and Dante just became more grusome
Axes

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, beaaaautiful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause I like Dante, and I've always considered giving Astorath a shot, even though he's not really my style.

Also, quick question about Sang Guard -

They have Glaive Encarmines, but 2 of the 5 are very visibly axes in a pack. That...doesn't mean anything, right?

Right?

I mean, that'd be interesting is all.

just different visual, same as power and force weapons can be swords, axes etc

Just making sure.

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

So far Run is still in. Plus penalties for a mishap during Deep Strike has been softened.

From all of the bitching from DE/Ork/eldar assault based armies, I don't think run is in anymore. I may be wrong but there is a ton of bitching about shorter charge distances.

From what I've read in the on going Rumor thread Fleet allows you to re roll Run or Charge distances. If that is true Run would still be in. Lots of people are bitching just because the new book is going to change, its the whole sky is falling thing.

Running is in but Fleet as it use to be is out, it now allows you to rell roll charge distance and your run move, it doe not allow you to charge after running now.

Other BA Buffs:
Rage +2 attacks in close combat, no move towards closest enemy. - Deathcompany look buff at this stage, I cant see any reason not to take them over any other troop choice. Relentless, FNP, Furious Charge and a huge list of upgrades will make them the troop of choice. Assault Marines with a priest may still get a look in but I feel they will be out performed but Deathcompany and a Chaplain regardless of the situation.

Jump infantry perform an impact hit at their base str and Init 10. They also get to reroll charge distances like fleet units do.

More nightfighting- Apparently nightfighing will occur in any game on a 4+, and cease on each subesquent turn on a 4+. This can only help assault armies, although shooting has got a buff this edition by the look of it.

As mentioned FNP no longer negated by anything but instant death attacks. I.e. Plasma and rending no longer cuts through it.

Have not seen what Furious charge does yet I'm still looking at Death Company + Chaplain and Sang Guard + Priests becoming the mainstay units of the army, The best thing is we can run chaplains, and librarians outside of the same FOC slots (furioso librarian, will be interesting to see the psychic power lists to see how you can buff this guy). I think I may be filling up both of them.

I'm fine with the idea of using DC more, and I'd be really, really happy with using Guard+Priest combo more often. DC models are more fun to paint than ASM anyways

You can't Run and charge with Fleet anymore? LAME!!!!!

Then you have the Baal Predator
TL-Assault Cannons + Heavy Flamer, Move 18” [assuming fast works the same] and Fire Everything.

Yeah, got another one of those recently too...hehe...


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So uhh...vanguard vets...what do people think? I mean, they still have regular power armour, I like the concept of heroic intervention but with them being so expensive and power weapons being AP3, and the fact that there's still a nasty whole world of hurt waiting unless they get extra protection, I imagine a priest wouldn't hurt, even though it would sacrifice the heroic intervention. They're also just so expensive and annoying to kit out, points-wise, but perhaps the 5++ and priest, along with FNP being closer to ironclad than before - What do people think?

I reckon we gotta buff. Just to be seen how much of one.... I'm looking forward to seeing how my Ravenrush army will operate under the new way of things.

Also, terminators getting buffed is allllllways a good thing; though its to be seen how powerful gk pallys will be now (though if rumor be truth, halbards will be str 6/Init 3, so we can kill purifiers before they swing! Yay)

I'm liking the new flyer rules.. specifically my 3 new stromravens liek the rumored flyer rules... though admitadly i boguht them before i knew the new flyer rules and jsut wanted em before they jumped to 80 bucks

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

I dunno, DOA probably got better than Razorspam, but I'm not sure if BA in general got much of a buff, if any. Obviously, 1 attack at I10 for jump infantry is great for them (thankfully it's a normal attack at base strength). Sanguinary Guard also got a big buff, they might actually be worth fielding now, and Death Company + Astaroth just became retardedly good (thank the Emperor they can't score). Luckily for the rest of us, Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are fairly expensive units.

Some stuff that does hurt though is that Furious Charge only gives +1S apparently instead of +1S +1I. My Grey Hunters would always be in trouble when they got assaulted due to the fact they couldn't swing back until after you, but now BA are going to be a slower army in general. FNP is potentially weaker, sure it's only negated by ID, but you're gonna take more casualties from small arms fire now. On top of that, Sanguinary Priests will probably never get to attack, since they can be called out in Challenges in Assault and will be pretty much toast if they even try to accept. Assaulting also became more dangerous due to Overwatch, you'll probably lose a couple guys on the charge. AP3 power weapons hurts a few units (like Blendernoughts), but isn't a huge deal overall admittedly. Night fighting's also going to be far more common and last longer, so if you get any vehicles then searchlights are basically a mandatory upgrade now (not a huge deal either).

Most of these nerfs aren't really a huge deal though, to be honest (except Furious Charge, if that one is true). I would be surprised if BA weren't still a competitive choice when everyone settles into 6th.

As a guard player who plays against BA a lot, I'm never ever taking plasma guns again - expect gut loads of meltavets in chimeras and as many Russes as I possibly can.
Your usual "strategy" of jump packing/whizzing around the enemy and shooting them up will still be viable

IM seeing VV in the same way as marbo or stormtroopers, cheap, nasty and use them to punish a mistake or to hammer a quick wedge in so your real forces can get going

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

l0k1 wrote:Blood Angels def seem to be getting a buff. Especially DOA lists.

I don't know about that. If there is no more running, then you will be nice and clusted up when landing close or not. I also expect to see a lot of melta guns get swapped out for plasma guns. Sang guard may be more safe in assault, but I think they are in even greater danger of just getting shot up.

Death Company + Astaroth just became retardedly good (thank the Emperor they can't score). Luckily for the rest of us, Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are fairly expensive units.

Please stop intentionally misspelling Astorath just because he reminds you of that character from Soul Calibur... the rest was white noise.

Also, a unit of sanguinary guard yields 5 artificer armoured fighters with 2 base attacks, all with master-crafted power weapons, for 200 points, with the option of a chapter banner (which in all likelihood I'll probably choose, or on my HG, depends) and the option of switching for power fists and infernus pistols - I'll be damned if their advantages don't totally make them worth every point, seeing as a unit of 10 assault marines is now more possibly going to get more beaten up by the smaller things. I have a feeling you just have to see the new rules apply for them before drawing the conclusion.

But yeah...I want to try out a DC list, but at the same time I'd like to try a little guardspam, you know? It'd be kinda fun, in a way. But DC are going to be extremely potent, meaning I'll probably launch those backed by Sanguinary Guard, the scoring units, and I'm sure we'llall figure out a good setup for a solid number of scoring units for competitive play.

Either that or we just totally go medieval on their asses and count on tabling them

I keep forgetting its Astorath... Ignoring my commentary cuz of 1 spelling mistake is a little silly though, but whatever.

Sanguinary Guard are probably going to be pretty handy now, basically speedy Terminators with a bit more fragility. I wish you could take more than 5 though.

I'm not ignoring it, it's just that it's uncertain about some details is all and I'll avoid that discussion until there's more certainty.


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Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Sanguinary Guard are probably going to be pretty handy now, basically speedy Terminators with a bit more fragility. I wish you could take more than 5 though.

.....:( me too, but at least with Dante I can have them as scoring units and spam them a bit. Give them Glaive Encarmines, maybe one or two power fists, and a chapter banner...pretty sweet.

I'll be running a DOA list with 2 Librarians, 2 Priests, 20 Assault Marines, 10 Sanguinary Guard, 10 Vanguards in 6th to see how it plays for a while. I think the Unleash Rage/Furious Chare/Feel No Pain will work with greater synergy in 6th since you can dictate charge ranges easier and put that I10 foot in the face on those fast but whimpy units. Reserves are coming faster and I can reroll them so I can rely on my Vanguards more than ever while my core of marines/libbies/priests gets a nice spearhead from the newly buffed Sanguinaries. Will the two Librarians give me two different psychic card bearers or do I need to pick only one like the warlord traits? I may take Meph over the 2 Libbies depending on how the new powers work.

An interesting setup right there...

Vanguard eh? What will you outfit them with? I'm just curious.

Mephs gonna be greatly nerfed from the looks; his swords only AP3. This means termis will smash his head in more often than not...

Zid wrote:Mephs gonna be greatly nerfed from the looks; his swords only AP3. This means termis will smash his head in more often than not...

Then don't send him after Termies, Thats what DC is for

haha yeah, I don't send him after terminators as it is

I just think that hull points just made vehicles a lot softer, especially if you're facing Necrons with their updated Gauss rules. Though Las/Plas turrets got a lot better at popping vehicles as well.

Titan Atlas wrote:An interesting setup right there...

Vanguard eh? What will you outfit them with? I'm just curious.

Usually dual claws, power weapon, fist, and two bp/ccw with 5 meltabombs. Pricey, but I ask them to do everything so I have to kit them appropriately. :-) I know they are universally despised but they win me games by scaring parking lots and ambushing lightly defended objectives/units.

hmm......

I might give that setup a try. haha, the time I tried them out I gave them like, 4 or 5 storm shields, power weapons, maybe a power fist, and jump packs, and they got pretty pwn'd. But I shouldn't write them off completely, I mean, they're fast attack, and unless I plan on using a bunch of baals, which is still viable with the changed FOC once you breach 2000 pts, well...they're an option.

My Sternguard are armed with:
1st Squad: Sergeant [Power Fist, Combi-Plasma], x7 Combi-Plasma, 2x Plasma Guns.
2nd Squad: Sergeant [Power Fist, Combi-Melta], x7 Combi-Melta, 2x Melta Guns.

And with 6th I am going to add:
3rd Squad: Sergeant [Power Fist, Combi-Flamer], x7 Combi-Flamer, 2x Heavy Flamers.

Sternguard are interesting, but Vanguard strike me as more connected to BA philosophy.


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...then again, I'm gathering you are talking about sternguard in perhaps Space Wolves, huh?

Titan Atlas wrote:Sternguard are interesting, but Vanguard strike me as more connected to BA philosophy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...then again, I'm gathering you are talking about sternguard in perhaps Space Wolves, huh?

A friend of mine uses this one
-Sergeant: Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Jump Pack
-4x Vanguard Vets: Power Weapon, Storm Shield, Jump Pack

Expensive, but brutal; the first time he brought them out he took out my Blood Claws and Grey Hunter Pack in rapid succession.

Yeah, when you arm them with storm shields it's pretty badass, I got particularly badly beaten with them though, and it didn't help that my opponent had tailored his list into a pretty nasty anti-BA matchup, so...yeah, I'm gonna keep them in mind, thanks!

As a note I have built my Marine Army [The Imperial Tigers] so the Core Units are legal for the Blood Angels Space Marine Codex.

I have been planning for years to make a Shrike and Body Guard using Vanguards, 10 Vanguards with Lighting Claws and Jump Packs.
However with the Blood Angels Codex I was able to take an Honor Guard with Jump Pack and Lighting Claws. I just use my Shrike as a Captain with Pump Pack and Paired Lighting Claws.
They have worked well except for the one time I got locked into melee with some Chaos Terminators.

What creative ideas might some people have for some allies to add to their lists?

I was think of Allies to field with my Armies, and was thinking of a Harlequin with an Autarch on a jet bike and Guardian Jet Bike Squadron [x4], painted up like Harlequins, this should run me about 500 points.

So like with your space wolves idea? It's interesting.

Like i said earlier I like to make my armies “Multi-Taskers”

Right, fair enough.

Personally, I'd like to get my hands on components of other armies I wish I had the chance to use, you know? Like, long fangs or something..hmm..

Titan Atlas wrote:Right, fair enough.

Personally, I'd like to get my hands on components of other armies I wish I had the chance to use, you know? Like, long fangs or something..hmm..

For a quick and dirty way to do that:
Take Logan [HQ]
Add a 5 man Wolf Guard Terminator Pack with Arjac and Cyclone Launcher, in a Drop Pod [Troops because of Logan ]
Take the Long Fangs [Heavy Support]

Put Logan in the Drop Pod and the Cyclone with the Long Fangs

Watch your opponents cry Cheese

I could see something simple becoming techy

Captain on a bike, unit of a bike for the troop, then something like Thunderfire Cannon being brought in to control half the field.

The Bike squad could easily keep up with a DOA list, provide T5 troops to bully units like guard or orks, or capture objectives from reserve.

With random Charge distance, and the changes to moving through cover, the thunderfire cannon can easily slow units to a dead crawl.

Furioso + mephiston used to = bunch o dead terminators.... No longer tho lol. Mephy will still be a good counter to gk and basic marine squads

QuietOrkmi wrote:Powerweapons not negating your FNP will be annoying, but charging into orks that shoot at BS 1 will still whittle some of the numbers down.

Your Vehicles being glanced to death makes enemy infantry more of a threat and makes Assault cannons better.

Not having an invulnerable save will be less dooming to Mephiston as it takes a powerfist to negate that, and those go at I1, compared to his I7 nonsense...

Melta's taking a hit will make the tactic of suicide drops being a little worse...

How has melta taken a hit? Is it that vehicles can now be glanced to death? The way I see it, meltas still do their thing, kill vehicles. It's just that they now have some competition.

Meltas are better at killing vehicles because on a penetrating hit they remove a hull point AND add +2 to the damage chart. Not seeing a down side.

Plasma get a +1 now and has double the range but, as far as I know still gets hot.

I'm holding my breath for 6th to make Sang Guard better. I have an all S Guard army right now and it is pretty good, but its not that good.
Check em out!

This is my test 1750 list for 6th.

Sweet! Guardspam would be epic fun, and I'd be totally on board for getting something similar. Thankfully, it costs a reasonable amount of money to get lots of them (I've got a couple units) if they indeed are getting as buffed as they are.

They look great, man!

The only real difference to Sang guard are that they are slightly less afraid on plasma because of the FNP change, are worse when fighting terminators because of the AP3 power weapons, and are slightly worse in close combat because of the furious charge nerf making them lose the +1 initiative on the charge.

What this means is, they will survive a little more shooting, lose to terminators, and do slightly less damage to everyone else, whereas in 5th they died easy to meltas and plasma, beat the crap out of terminators (just cuz of how many attacks they had), and face-rolled everything else.

This is a typical Imperial Tigers 4th Company Set Up using the Blood Angels Codex

2000 Pts Blood Angels Roster

Captain in Power Armour, 160 pts (Melta Bombs; Jump Pack; Lightning Claw x2)
Honour Guard, 325 pts (Chapter Banner; Equip with Jump Packs)
 Blood Champion (Melta Bombs)
 Sanguinary Novitiate
 3x Honour Guard (Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Sternguard Veteran Squad, 375 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Combi-Plasmagun x7; Plasma gun x2)
 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Combi-Plasmagun; Power Fist x1)
 Drop Pod

Sternguard Veteran Squad, 365 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Combi-Meltagun x7; Meltagun x2)
 Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Combi-Plasmagun; Power Fist x1)
 Drop Pod

Blood Angels Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought (IA), 265 pts (Smoke Launchers; Extra Armor; Blood Talon with Storm Bolter x2; Automatic Shielding; Fleet)
 Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod (IA)

Assault Squad, 255 pts (Jump Packs, Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x9; Infernus Pistol x2)
 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Assault Squad, 255 pts (Jump Pack; Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x9; Plasma Pistol x2)
 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Now with 6th, I don’t think I will change the list much. I might exchange the Dread for another Sternguard, loaded with Flamers. I might also drop a lot of the Melta Bombs for the Sergeants with Power Fist.

Anpu42 wrote:Take Logan [HQ]
Add a 5 man Wolf Guard Terminator Pack with Arjac and Cyclone Launcher, in a Drop Pod [Troops because of Logan ]
Take the Long Fangs [Heavy Support]

Put Logan in the Drop Pod and the Cyclone with the Long Fangs

Watch your opponents cry Cheese

I dunno, I would almost want to fight that... that's 838pts if I calculated right, a good chunk of your actual army. I get the feeling that people are thinking too much about their Allies and losing sight of their main army.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, when you arm them with storm shields it's pretty badass, I got particularly badly beaten with them though, and it didn't help that my opponent had tailored his list into a pretty nasty anti-BA matchup, so...yeah, I'm gonna keep them in mind, thanks!

lol, it was tailored somewhat (in that I had the majority of my models with I5, but to be fair some armies are all I5 or higher), although an all-Fenrisian Wolf army is pretty fragile.

With TWC and Long Fangs

Yeah well all Space Wolf players run Long Fangs lol. And a lot of them run TWC (I usually don't have the points, but they were the only hardy unit I had in that game).

Titan Atlas wrote:With TWC and Long Fangs

The only problem is you will need to still come up with a HQ and a Troop Choice
I guess you could go with a Thunderlord or Canis and some grey Hunters, but that wont be any cheeper in the long run.

He was using Canis, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about two separate things here.


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Anywho...let's keep on the subject before I accidentally derail it

Anpu42 wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:With TWC and Long Fangs

The only problem is you will need to still come up with a HQ and a Troop Choice
I guess you could go with a Thunderlord or Canis and some grey Hunters, but that wont be any cheeper in the long run.

lol, we were just talking about a previous battle Atlas and I had. Although TWC and Long Fangs would be an expensive combo too (since you'd need Grey Hunters and an HQ to go along with it)... at that point, you might as well play a Space Wolves army.

...Screw that, BA all the way.

I think Allies should be light with Blood Angels; they don’t need all that much if a Buff.

Ok here is a 2k List with about 200 points of Allies based on what I want to do.

Captain in Power Armour, 160 pts (Melta Bombs; Jump Pack; Lightning Claw x2)
Honour Guard, 325 pts (Chapter Banner; Equip with Jump Packs)
 Blood Champion
 Sanguinary Novitiate
 3x Honour Guard (Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Sternguard Veteran Squad, 410 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Combi-Plasmagun x7; Plasma gun x2)
 Sergeant (Combi-Plasmagun; Power Fist x1)
 Rhino (Dozer Blade; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter x2)

Sternguard Veteran Squad, 400 pts (Bolt Pistol x9; Combi-Meltagun x7; Meltagun x2)
 Sergeant (Combi-Meltagun; Power Fist x1)
 Rhino (Dozer Blade; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter x2)

Assault Squad, 255 pts (Jump Pack; Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x9; Infernus Pistol x2)
 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Assault Squad, 255 pts (Jump Pack; Bolt Pistol x7; Chainsword x9; Plasma Pistol x2)
 Sergeant (Jump Pack; Melta Bombs; Lightning Claw x2)

Allies:
Eldar Autarch [EL], 118 pts (Banshee Mask; Force Shield; Eldar Jetbike; Power Weapon; Shuriken Pistol; Death Spinner; TL Shuriken Catapults x1; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades)
 3x Guardian Jetbike Squadron [EL], 76 pts (Eldar Jetbike; Shuriken Cannon x1; TL Shuriken Catapults x2)

I put the Sternguard into the Rhino’s because of the Drop Pod Assault, but the 18”+ Move should get me into position quickly enough.
The Eldar should add a distinctive flair that goes along with the BA Speed, but not overpower the list. to add the Harliguin Troop I want I would need about another 300 points.

It should be effective on the battlefield with out the cries of Cheese. It should also look cool and be fun to pay.

I'm sooooo getting an Avatar to run with my Blood Angels. Not sure if it makes sense, but I want to. He can hide behind my Land Raider or so. You know, the one with the TH/SS Termis.

Oh and a few Jetbikes. Not sure (yet) what to do with them, but I guess it's the best Eldar Troop choice (at first glance).

I'm gonna first try out purebred BA before I go ally-crazy...partially because I'm living on a strict budget, but also because I'd like to assess how powerful BA will be before further complicating matters by seeing which other army would compliment them well.


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Furioso Librarians might be more useful in a charge against those with lower toughness, with the Wings bonus acting like he's jump infantry and all.

I'm thinking of ditching the priests all together. FNP and FC aren't going to be worth the 75points pr priest.

I'm instead going for Astorath (for the 50% red thirst chance) and probably using my elite slots for furioso libbies. Troops I'm thinking a core of DC and DC dreads.

Well remember that you still need units to capture objectives, unless you're going for a tabling list.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well remember that you still need units to capture objectives, unless you're going for a tabling list.

I've been using scouts on my lists so far, I think they'll stay.

I'd probably go speedy and take Sang Guard and some ASM with those DC and Astorath. But if so, I'd have to take Dante to make Sang Guard scoring, otherwise I would not likely take many and that's silly, and I would like to take my Libby as well......


We'll see. We shall see.

Titan Atlas wrote:I'd probably go speedy and take Sang Guard and some ASM with those DC and Astorath. But if so, I'd have to take Dante to make Sang Guard scoring, otherwise I would not likely take many and that's silly, and I would like to take my Libby as well......


We'll see. We shall see.

And by that point, that's a ridiculously costly combo haha. I've tried fitting Njal and Ragnar into a list... I had to make so many concessions that it wasn't even worth it.

Yeah, it sounds like there are two approaches unless you go up into the 3000s for a balance of the two.

Atlas I could probably squeeze into either though, and ASM will factor in either way.

Also, fast vindicators since their guns do full strength now.

Interesting.

I mean, vehicles will still be fragile due to the adjustments, but we'll build accordingly

Anybody have any ideas yet as to how they'll outfit their librarians? Similarly? Differently? I have yet to flip through the psychic powers as I'm choosing to wait to get my card set, but with those in consideration, and adjustments to power weapons, what do you think you will do differently?

The new reserve rules seem to prohibit more than half the units going into reserve, rounded up, counting ICs as seperate. Pure DOA is dead, long live Bloodhammer with scouts and devs on foot. But reserves are now T2/3: 3+, T4: auto, so there's that.

Fists or Axes on ASM seem mandatory now. Axes notably get the +1A for a pistol.

I really don't see any reason not to keep the standard setup of powers for librarians. You're not subject to randomness screwing you out of what you really wanted. Shield is proportionally stronger due to most cover dropping to 5+. Worth noting: Unleash Rage occurs at beginning of assault phase. Unless FAQed, this means you can have the new and improved Preferred Enemy during Overwatch.

Meph's ability to charge in and kill large units is going to be nerfed by the fact that, as a single-model character unit, he can't refuse challenges. So on the turn he charges, the squad sergeant or whatever is going to step up and die, holding him to only winning combat by 1 wound (2 wounds, I guess, versus nobs).

The Sanguinary priest can always refuse the challenge.

Furious charge is just +1 str now.

I think the Stormlord is going to be a valuable Ally (and before people say anything I've read the actual allies section in the book over and over looking for it and there is nothing saying you cant ally with special chars).

Also in the Mephiston Situation where a squad sergeant challenges that is Ideally what you want and you should issue a challenge if he doesn't keeps Mephy protected during the enemy round of shooting and then lets him kill the squad on the enemy turn.

After some wound allocation read throughs, I think BA character selelction is going to be really important to getting assault squads across the table mostly unharmed.

My idea is to have them joined by a Biker captain with SS and whatever else you want, With the +1T he's immune to instant kill from missiles and lascannons, he gets a 3++ save and FnP against those shots (as long as you have a priest) For a bonus take a vanilla marine captain, you get one that can take artificer armor too, and comes with a troop of bikes that keep up with our jump troops and provide much needed close range shooting support in the form of 2x plasma guns and a MM.

As for psykers, don't overlook biomancy and having your squad lead by a librarian with +3T, EW and getting back up on a 5+.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Meph's ability to charge in and kill large units is going to be nerfed by the fact that, as a single-model character unit, he can't refuse challenges. So on the turn he charges, the squad sergeant or whatever is going to step up and die, holding him to only winning combat by 1 wound (2 wounds, I guess, versus nobs).

Yeah I noticed that one too, just get a squad to slow him down and make the sergeant/IC commit suicide and/or wound him a few times.


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Zachilles wrote:I think the Stormlord is going to be a valuable Ally (and before people say anything I've read the actual allies section in the book over and over looking for it and there is nothing saying you cant ally with special chars).

Yeah but he's a Desperate Ally, so 1/6 turns he'll be doing nothing at all.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Meph's ability to charge in and kill large units is going to be nerfed by the fact that, as a single-model character unit, he can't refuse challenges. So on the turn he charges, the squad sergeant or whatever is going to step up and die, holding him to only winning combat by 1 wound (2 wounds, I guess, versus nobs).

Yeah I noticed that one too, just get a squad to slow him down and make the sergeant/IC commit suicide and/or wound him a few times.


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Zachilles wrote:I think the Stormlord is going to be a valuable Ally (and before people say anything I've read the actual allies section in the book over and over looking for it and there is nothing saying you cant ally with special chars).

Yeah but he's a Desperate Ally, so 1/6 turns he'll be doing nothing at all.

I just picked up the rulebook so I haven't had time to go through it yet, but there might be potential for meph as a pure caster if you switch his abilities with the new ones?

With all the rumours and literally moments before I actually get my hands on the rulebook, I'm gonna resolve to stop being panicky about all the possible nerfs that BA will have with 6th ed and just read through.

Well, in my last game, DoA vs. mech BA, my Vanguard units (3x5 Vets with power fist each) arrived from reserve charging tanks and infantry. Now it will be easier for them to take down tanks in assault, since vehicles will be hit on 3+ in cc.

DoA are dead:

You can only reserve half your army
FC does not give the initiative bonus
FnP reduced to 5+ (with a wider range to roll it on to be fair)
Overwatch
Jump packs have to be used EITHER for movement or for charging

Stoffer wrote:DoA are dead:

You can only reserve half your army
FC does not give the initiative bonus
FnP reduced to 5+ (with a wider range to roll it on to be fair)
Overwatch
Jump packs have to be used EITHER for movement or for charging

A pure DoA is possibly not as effective as it was when it comes from reserve.
But now I'd be inclined to combine a DoA force (Sanginuary Guard, Vanguard) with a ground force containing heavy tanks like Vindicators (awesome with the new template rule).

Yeah, I mean, it's quite feasible to use a hybrid list.

How about a Dreadnought with blood fist or blood talons, are they AP 2 ?

wuestenfux wrote:

Stoffer wrote:DoA are dead:

You can only reserve half your army
FC does not give the initiative bonus
FnP reduced to 5+ (with a wider range to roll it on to be fair)
Overwatch
Jump packs have to be used EITHER for movement or for charging

A pure DoA is possibly not as effective as it was when it comes from reserve.
But now I'd be inclined to combine a DoA force (Sanginuary Guard, Vanguard) with a ground force containing heavy tanks like Vindicators (awesome with the new template rule).

Yeah, right now I'm thinking of looking at something like:

No more priests. The bonuses aren't worth it at 75 points a piece.

Libby dreads in place of priests
2 units of DC with astorath and possibly lemartes
Scouts to hold
Vindicators to support

wuestenfux wrote:How about a Dreadnought with blood fist or blood talons, are they AP 2 ?

Fists are ap2 but the talons are only ap3 :(

That's fine though, I mean...most enemies I fought that had 2+ saves were too dangerous for the Dread as it was, except maybe some termies that didn't have storm shields.

SiegeCommander wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about a Dreadnought with blood fist or blood talons, are they AP 2 ?

Fists are ap2 but the talons are only ap3 :(

Are Dreads still hit in the front as it was? Sorry but I'm picking up my book on monday. If so, Furioso Dreads are still very dangerous to MEQs.

Yes, Dreads are still hit on the front in assaults unless immobile

DC Dreads and Furioso Dreads are still pretty good now. Actually I think the DC one is a bit better since Rage no longer works how it used to.

Does the rulebook have the double FOC thing at 2K points?

Also what does the FAQ mean when it says that an IC with the Red Thirst can only join DC or a squad with the Red Thirst? What if we joined an IC to a squad at the beginning of a game and the unit gains Red Thirst...Does this mean he's stuck not being able to join other squads unless they have Red Thirst as well?

Yeah, that last bit worries me a tiny bit, but then again, lots of people will go in, roll for red thirst, and place accordingly, without being as likely to worry about not having a place for their HQ, as unless you had Astorath in your list, or even if you do, how often do people ever have all their troops choices succumb?

But yeah....it still worries me.

mmm didnt see anything in the faq saying ravens are fliers.... /sadpanda

The Red Thirst IC thing seems so weird, since none of the ICs in the codex have the The Red Thirst special rule.

Zid wrote:mmm didnt see anything in the faq saying ravens are fliers.... /sadpanda

Pretty sure this is listed in the back of the Rulebook since all Unit types have now been revised and the GK FAQ makes no mention of how Paladins are characters yet the rulebook says they are.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:The Red Thirst IC thing seems so weird, since none of the ICs in the codex have the The Red Thirst special rule.

I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.


Today I played some 6th Edition games at 500 points and I really felt the hit on FNP. Its awesome that we get it on Power Weapons and such, but it sucks that its only 5+. Our marines die like flies now to anything and everything. FNP used to be scary. Now not so much. Also Furious Charge losing the +1 Initiative was a harsh blow. I lost so many marines simply because I lost that +1 initiative and I now go at the same with other Power Weapons. Its just awful. The I10 attack with the Jump Packs doesn't really do much either since its only 1 attack. So far we seem pretty balanced, but our special abilities got nerfed a bit. Hopefully I can use DC soon.

I am currently running a BA/IG hybrid list for fluff games, but I think BA got buffed. Shield + HP = Tough tanks. I might give my VV a try. My custom unit has two axes, two swords and a hammer(Built in 5th when weapon models didn't matter). Expensive for a punishment unit, but it could be a lot of fun.

I went to the GW today and had two test games, and the Sanguinary Guard really do benefit against the nerf on power *swords* - mind you, they still have to watch out for axes and fists and the like, as well as shooting, but with the change to dangerous terrain (my BA can get saves if they fail dangerous terrain! Yay! No more death by trees haha) I just send them into cover and then pop them out to take care of the threats.

Very, very cool.

BA/IG is cool, but yeah...I'll see my options, I don't want to compromise the strength to try out allies if I can avoid it, but I would like to know what people have used for effective combos.


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.......well, so the sorta-ref said who was reading the rulebook to use. But he could be wrong. I'm pretty sure he was reading it right though, so fingers are crossed on that.

Red Comet wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:The Red Thirst IC thing seems so weird, since none of the ICs in the codex have the The Red Thirst special rule.

I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.

Easy loop hole around this, don't start your ICs in your units. Have them join in the first turn!

So far, I am seeing major boosts to things that didn't use to be good. Sternguard, Devastators, Sang Guard, Death Co., Furioso Libbys, and my favorite... bikes. They got ridiculous with their jink move, combined with FNP that is only negated on S10, able to carry 2x Plasma and combi-plasma on Sgt. Blood Rodeo, here I come!

Thinking something like...

Meph
Libby on bike
2x Priest, 1 bike, 1 JP
3x Assault squads, 2x plasmas 1x meltas
2x 10 man bikes plasmas, mm attack bike

I like the idea of devastators though, I think having sky fire rule somewhere in the army is a MUST with all the cool rules flyers have. So missile launchers will be major!

J Mac wrote:

Red Comet wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:The Red Thirst IC thing seems so weird, since none of the ICs in the codex have the The Red Thirst special rule.

I've been looking into it and when you read Red Thirst it says that the entire unit gains FC and Fearless. Now in the rulebook when an IC joins a squad he is considered like part of the unit and essentially is just another model in the unit that is a character. So once I've deployed an IC within a unit of ASM or another squad he's considered part of the Unit. When the unit gains Red Thirst the IC has it as well. So if the Assault Marines that have my Sanguinary Priest gain Red Thirst so does my Priest and my Priest can only join squads that rolled a 1 for Red Thirst or Death Company.

Easy loop hole around this, don't start your ICs in your units. Have them join in the first turn!

So far, I am seeing major boosts to things that didn't use to be good. Sternguard, Devastators, Sang Guard, Death Co., Furioso Libbys, and my favorite... bikes. They got ridiculous with their jink move, combined with FNP that is only negated on S10, able to carry 2x Plasma and combi-plasma on Sgt. Blood Rodeo, here I come!

Thinking something like...

Meph
Libby on bike
2x Priest, 1 bike, 1 JP
3x Assault squads, 2x plasmas 1x meltas
2x 10 man bikes plasmas, mm attack bike

I like the idea of devastators though, I think having sky fire rule somewhere in the army is a MUST with all the cool rules flyers have. So missile launchers will be major!

Yeah I'm seeing a lot of options being open for BA players, and I have a feeling a unit of Devs is a good idea. But sanguinary guard and DC can work like a dream now, and that's...well, that's just beautiful.

Especially if you bother to use Death Masks and they work out XD

What was your loadout on the Sanguinary Guard Titan?

Also I never thought of that loophole...That's actually rather funny.

Well, you can make a lot of usage out of even just throwing a chapter banner onto them to give them a decent 4 attacks on the charge, which is enough to deal with most things aside from Termies.

I had a very small game for the first one, and they were bare, but they got gimped by seriously, bolter fire which scored ten wounds, they failed 3 2+ SAVES, I had them in an assault with a unit of banshees in the second, and they totally wrecked them, thanks to the power swords being AP3. They can totally work as general-purpose infantry blender, but I'd still obviously keep them away from terminators, even if they got a couple power fists and had death masks (cause those aren't that reliable). I am kinda wary about buying Death Masks unless you get Dante and put him in the unit (thus making them and any other Sanguinary guard troops, and therefore scoring units) - and you get the Death Mask of Sanguinius special ability as well for the beginning, as well as Hit-and-Run.


.....but yeah, I'd buy a chapter banner and add Dante, as he's a great HQ and has enough buffs to justify his points cost, plus he comes with a free upgrade to the unit as well (Cause death masks don't stack, after all :/)


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In short, artificer armour got a little light to shine on them with the limitations on power weapons. Even against squads that can have access to maybe one or two power fists, the guard can potentially just kill them, especially if you exploit the wound allocation (what I did in my first game today, taking out a power-fist-bearing CSM sgt)


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....ooh, and the chapter banner also obviously gives Dante a bonus attack, it's pretty great.

If you put a unit of HG in there though, I'd prefer to have the banner with them as I like to give them SS and make them a highly mobile deathstar.

Titan Atlas wrote:
.....but yeah, I'd buy a chapter banner and add Dante, as he's a great HQ and has enough buffs to justify his points cost, plus he comes with a free upgrade to the unit as well (Cause death masks don't stack, after all :/)

Ooo, Death Masks with the Command-#2 warlord trait!!!

J Mac wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
.....but yeah, I'd buy a chapter banner and add Dante, as he's a great HQ and has enough buffs to justify his points cost, plus he comes with a free upgrade to the unit as well (Cause death masks don't stack, after all :/)

Ooo, Death Masks with the Command-#2 warlord trait!!!

...omg clever!

I forgot to mention that tac squads got a boost obviously. However, with tac squads, Brother Corbulo is a beast! FNP(2+) and he will sit at the very front of that tac squad and absorb everything! I think drop pods got a big boost in this sense, especially with overwatch.

oh yeah............oh yeah, totally forgot about Corbulo, his FNP is really great, really really great actually.


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Especially when I remember that it protects against everything but ID...which is awesomesauce

Until someone shoots you with meltaguns and bolters, and says to make the meltagun saves first, and he dies to ID.

With regards to allies, I have thought of Tau.

Bear in mind, that I haven't checked the points cost of this Tau element yet.

How about

One Commander Crisis Suit (You know the guy with the plasma kit out)
One unit of Broadsides
Cheapest Troop Possible.

The FA and HS sections filled with Predators is still a viable option, since glancing hits will be ignored and so they will shoot more often than in the 5th ed. The area of silencing guns via glancing hits is gone.

Spellbound wrote:Until someone shoots you with meltaguns and bolters, and says to make the meltagun saves first, and he dies to ID.

Yeah but that's pretty reasonably manageable.

wuestenfux wrote:The FA and HS sections filled with Predators is still a viable option, since glancing hits will be ignored and so they will shoot more often than in the 5th ed. The area of silencing guns via glancing hits is gone.

I agree here. I am hearing a lot of doom and gloom for vehicles in general. Howvever, I feel like the Predators are still viable. The glancing/hull point rules may actually make the baal with assault cannon more attractive while allowing the missile launcher devs to go in the heavy support slot for sky firing. If I understand all this correctly. I am still trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The FA and HS sections filled with Predators is still a viable option, since glancing hits will be ignored and so they will shoot more often than in the 5th ed. The area of silencing guns via glancing hits is gone.

I agree here. I am hearing a lot of doom and gloom for vehicles in general. Howvever, I feel like the Predators are still viable. The glancing/hull point rules may actually make the baal with assault cannon more attractive while allowing the missile launcher devs to go in the heavy support slot for sky firing. If I understand all this correctly. I am still trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

I think we're on the right track, cause yeah, they can often weather a good number of shots but could be easily crippled by just a glance, and with Baals you send them into the nasty parts to really shoot 'em up, so getting glanced to death, while bad, is a worthy risk instead of being easily crippled one turn, and then just blown apart later on.


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.....ooh, course I'd try and absolutely make sure the front takes the fire.

Spellbound wrote:Until someone shoots you with meltaguns and bolters, and says to make the meltagun saves first, and he dies to ID.

Since he is an IC, he gets a 'Look Out Sir!' roll of a 2+ on that meltagun. So its not that bad, if you get unlucky and roll a 1, you could always reroll per the Far Seeing Eye

From what I've seen in a single game between two blood angels players:

Dante takes a hit since his axe is a master crafted power weapon. He gets a boost with the +1 S but suddenly he's hitting at I1 because of the unwieldy. Good thing is that he is now I2.

Astorath gets a buff since his power weapon has specialty rules. He gets AP3 for having a specialized power weapon with extra rules whereas Dante's is just a regular power weapon modeled as an Axe. Astorath hits at I5 and S6. Just don't assault terminators with him.

That's a perfect idea, but I do have one question:

Far Seeing Eye, I have only used it like, once, but it is only for rolls that Corbulo's controlling player makes, right? I don't know if I saw that clarified anywhere but it'd make sense if that were so.

rogueeyes wrote:Dante takes a hit since his axe is a master crafted power weapon. He gets a boost with the +1 S but suddenly he's hitting at I1 because of the unwieldy. Good thing is that he is now I2.

How so? In the FAQs they're saying that something that reduces someone's Initiative to a set value now takes precedence over any buffs. So he should be I1 always.

I had thought it was +2S for some reason but I'm fine with that, S6 on the charge is pretty encouraging with AP2. As for initiative...that can still be dealt with.

Titan Atlas wrote:

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The FA and HS sections filled with Predators is still a viable option, since glancing hits will be ignored and so they will shoot more often than in the 5th ed. The area of silencing guns via glancing hits is gone.

I agree here. I am hearing a lot of doom and gloom for vehicles in general. Howvever, I feel like the Predators are still viable. The glancing/hull point rules may actually make the baal with assault cannon more attractive while allowing the missile launcher devs to go in the heavy support slot for sky firing. If I understand all this correctly. I am still trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

I think we're on the right track, cause yeah, they can often weather a good number of shots but could be easily crippled by just a glance, and with Baals you send them into the nasty parts to really shoot 'em up, so getting glanced to death, while bad, is a worthy risk instead of being easily crippled one turn, and then just blown apart later on.


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.....ooh, course I'd try and absolutely make sure the front takes the fire.

However, when moving forward with the Baals you need to protect the weaker side armor. Shooting a Predator in the front can be very frustrating for the enemy.

wuestenfux wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:

Feldmarshal Goehring wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:The FA and HS sections filled with Predators is still a viable option, since glancing hits will be ignored and so they will shoot more often than in the 5th ed. The area of silencing guns via glancing hits is gone.

I agree here. I am hearing a lot of doom and gloom for vehicles in general. Howvever, I feel like the Predators are still viable. The glancing/hull point rules may actually make the baal with assault cannon more attractive while allowing the missile launcher devs to go in the heavy support slot for sky firing. If I understand all this correctly. I am still trying to wrap my head around this stuff.

I think we're on the right track, cause yeah, they can often weather a good number of shots but could be easily crippled by just a glance, and with Baals you send them into the nasty parts to really shoot 'em up, so getting glanced to death, while bad, is a worthy risk instead of being easily crippled one turn, and then just blown apart later on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.....ooh, course I'd try and absolutely make sure the front takes the fire.

However, when moving forward with the Baals you need to protect the weaker side armor. Shooting a Predator in the front can be very frustrating for the enemy.

Precisely, just gotta be careful. Which can usually be done haha

Death Company are now one of the best troops choices in the game.

Relentless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain and Rage add up to a 20 point monster that bust open pretty much anything it wants.

I'm not sure though, if full on assault is the way to go now. Boltgun armed DC seem to be the way forward as they will be able to gun down and assault my vic... I mean poor unfortunate opponents.

Only two weaknesses are that they can't claim objectives and they don't have special weapons. Still going to be insane to play against. Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

Puscifer wrote:Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

Yeah, I'm unsure about that too. His weapon is specialized and two-handed that makes them reroll successful invul saves and strikes at S6, but he does have artificer armour and a rosarius, a jump pack, and all the bonuses of a regular chaplain (which really make DC about as horribly brutal as they can get, rerolling hits and wounds after all) - Shadow of the Primarch is same as ever, but FC is a bit nerfed now.

When I write him all out though I kinda see what people are saying, he's great, especially with the better value of artificer armour now.

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

Puscifer wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

HQ

Dante - Unlocks SG for troops and is a pretty good beatstick.
Sanguinor - Makes SG really good and is also a pretty good beatstick.

Sanguinary Guard as Troops - Can destroy anything that doesn't have a 2+ save and murders baseline infantry.

Only downside is they are sorely missing some Anti Tank, unless you mount them in Stormraven.

DC on the other hand...

Astorath - Beatstick, unlocks the army, makes non DC great.
Tycho - I like him in his norm phase, but is there a way to protect him as DC Tycho?

DC - Now uber beyond all expectations, but still cannot claim any quarters.
DCD - Still insane and even more killy with Blood Talons as they have more attacks to gain more... attacks.

Rhino - Base transport.
Razorback - Heavy weapons, but rather crap as you can only transport a small squad.
LR/LRC/LRR - Always good for a laugh. LRR seems to be better here.
Stormraven - Can transport a DC unit and their DCD. What's not to like?
Drop Pod - Never once used a Pod. Could be useful.


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Coyote81 wrote:Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

I read it as a power axe that is Master Crafted.

I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

Coyote81 wrote:Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

Nothing unusual about it, it's just a power axe that's master-crafted and both those are covered in the main rulebook.

Puscifer wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

My main thing for Dante is that he can make Sanguinary Guard troops choices.

Couldn't you model Dante with a sword instead?

No, because then think about how people would exploit that.


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Besides, it's in the codex that it's an axe, so you're not going to fool anybody and nobody will let you switch it unless maybe in casual, but even then......nah.

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

J Mac wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is
AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

Positive attitude is positive. I like it, and yes, let's find a good TEQ contingency.


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I do think though, that we can at least exploit wound allocation to eliminate the biggest threats in any given TEQ squad, as a start.

Plasma guns, and lots of them. Do not rid of your melts, because you'll need them too. In fact you'll need a very balanced force to be competitive. We're talking plasma for TEQ, melta for any ground vehicle, and ML for any flyers.

My biggest worry, will be facing the Green tide. New fearless took Ork mobs to a whole new tier...

It's a shame DC marines can't equip Plasma Guns and exploit Relentless, but a unit of 10 can take 10 plasma pistols...

But yeah, ASM squads should probably keep their melta loadouts.

Sanguinary Guard, Infernus pistols, worth it? 10 pts each. I'd consider giving them fists but that's just....well, even then it's suicide.

I've been cooking up a Sanguinary Guard list with some Veteran Backup (I'll post the full list later), but suffice to say, there is a lot of stuff that BA can field to make the SG list uber competitive in 6th.

First off, our apparent problems with TEQ. Well the answer here would usually be loads of small weapons fire, but SG lists can't field that many units. So I pondered over the use of Honour Guard. These guys can pack Plasma Guns and Jump Packs. Deep Strike of course being favourable for us, would mean that DS down next to them and shoot a unit of TEQ to death would be a good thing for us. At 225 points per unit, they are quite pricey, but they bring the pain better than most against TEQ. For 245 points, they could have Melta Bombs too, making them multi purpose.

Or for straight up Anti-Tank, take Vanguard Vets with Melta Bombs. DS in, Heroic Intervention and BOOM!!!

Rough 2k list:

Dante – 225
Sanguinor – 275

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks.

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks.

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks, Chapter Banner.

Honour Guard – 245
4 Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs, Jump Packs.

Honour Guard – 245
4 Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs, Jump Packs.

Furioso Librarian - 175
Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius.

Dante unlocks the SG and nerfs a hero. Sanguinor gets re-rolls against the nerfed hero and gives everyone in 6" +1A. The Chapter Banner gives anyone in 6" another +1A for a total of 5 on a charge for SG. The two units of Honour Guard give FNP to anyone in 6" and finally the Librarian Dreadnought give a cover save to anyone in 6".

I don't know if it will work as it doesn't have a large footfall and it will suffer when trying to get into combat, but I'm hoping the FNP will help save the SG along the way.

Instead of the Dread Librarian, take some Devs w/ MSL for 130pts and I think you could use a JP Librarian instead of of the Sanguinor and take the other 150pts and buy a second Dev squad w/ MSL. this should leave you 65pts, take a aegis defense line for your devs or a priest. I believe IC characters are going to be much more powerful then Meph or Sanguinor.

Stoffer wrote:I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

tried that this weekend but when the stormraven gets shot down that is a str 10 hit with no armor save and no fnp save due to it being instant death

imo stormravens are now beefed up stormtalons. if the opponent bring anti air or other fliers it is game over for everything inside

also vehicles are now so weak that while I will be bringing death company they'll be on foot or in a land raider with nothign in between

Well, the army has too less bodies. DoA armies tend to fall apart if being too small.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, the army has too less bodies. DoA armies tend to fall apart if being too small.

Yeah, thats what i'm noticing. Need more guys to bring more pain.

Working on a DC army list ATM, will post to critique later.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Stoffer wrote:I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

tried that this weekend but when the stormraven gets shot down that is a str 10 hit with no armor save and no fnp save due to it being instant death

imo stormravens are now beefed up stormtalons. if the opponent bring anti air or other fliers it is game over for everything inside

also vehicles are now so weak that while I will be bringing death company they'll be on foot or in a land raider with nothign in between

Bring the raven in as a skimmer if that's the issue. People will prepare to face fliers, so don't play into that.

Personally my ravens will fly when it'll be hard to shoot em down, skim on the dropoff, then back to flying if they still live. Ravens still play like in 5th; they're disposible pawns to get the choppy bits where they're needed

J Mac wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

I wasn't saying ap3 sucks. Its actually really good and he would work well at decapitating sargeants with power firsts before they could attack through challenges. Basicaly if you assault a tac or assault squad challenge the pf sargeant. With ws6 you hit on 3's. Wound on 2's. Really only fnp save will be there to prrevent death. If you get the warmaster trait that gives you 1 vp for each challenge won even better. Just run astorath around killing off sargeants and avoid terminators.

Running him with dc is just icing on the cake since they will be barrelling though just about anything.

I see some people mentioning that you have to choose either to use jump pack in movement or assault fase.

from what i could see in the rule book you can use jump packs in both you can just choose not to use them. or am i reading it wrong.

someone said that Brother Corbulo get 2+ FNP. where did you find this rule? could not find it in rulebook or faq

The rules for Jump Infantry require that you choose.

Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

jbunny wrote:Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

It's only for him. If it were for those in 6" too, it would be OP, but good.

rogueeyes wrote:

J Mac wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

I wasn't saying ap3 sucks. Its actually really good and he would work well at decapitating sargeants with power firsts before they could attack through challenges. Basicaly if you assault a tac or assault squad challenge the pf sargeant. With ws6 you hit on 3's. Wound on 2's. Really only fnp save will be there to prrevent death. If you get the warmaster trait that gives you 1 vp for each challenge won even better. Just run astorath around killing off sargeants and avoid terminators.

Running him with dc is just icing on the cake since they will be barrelling though just about anything.

Exactly my point. Astorath got better for sure, but he is no Mephiston either. Just as any unit, weigh your odds before throwing them into combat.

Puscifer wrote:

jbunny wrote:Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

It's only for him. If it were for those in 6" too, it would be OP, but good.

I agree. Someone was just asking where people got the 2+ FNP for Corbulo. I was pointing out where it was found.

Thank you for the quick answers. didnt have codex nearby.

And looks like i missed that part under jump infantry.

6th Edition may be the "rise of TEQ", but if anything, BA are specially equipped to handle TEQ. How's that?

Death Company.

Even without any special gear, stick a chaplain in with them and they are just godly.

10 death compnay + chaplain = 300 pts.

That's...what?.....somewhere in the range of 40 to 50 wounds after all is said and done with Liturgies of Blood. Even against a 2+ TEQ save, that's 5 or 6 dead termies. And all at I4!

I had a goofy idea before:

Blood angels allied with Crimson Fists.

Take Kantor, a scout (sniper) squad with Telion for Troops and Sternguard in a pod with Combi-flamers (and possibly a melta/plasma gun or two.) Camp them (with Pedro) on an objective, dropping d3 flamer hits per combi-flamer on the first unit to assault them, then fight back with the bonus attacks Kantor grants.

Meanwhile Telion (and on a 6, his snipers) can pick off high-value targets in units the BA troops assault on the following phase.

Of course, its probably terrible, but it sounded interesting in my head, anyway

Duromiir wrote:I had a goofy idea before:

Blood angels allied with Crimson Fists.

Take Kantor, a scout (sniper) squad with Telion for Troops and Sternguard in a pod with Combi-flamers (and possibly a melta/plasma gun or two.) Camp them (with Pedro) on an objective, dropping d3 flamer hits per combi-flamer on the first unit to assault them, then fight back with the bonus attacks Kantor grants.

Meanwhile Telion (and on a 6, his snipers) can pick off high-value targets in units the BA troops assault on the following phase.

Of course, its probably terrible, but it sounded interesting in my head, anyway

Blood Angels. Do. Not. Need. Crimson Fists. Nevertheless, the idea is nice.

I think Sternguard may be the new workhorses among my Blood Angels, backed by Tactical Squads and Devastators, with Assault Squads relegated to a QRF, and Vanguards sent deep to pursue targets hiding from my heavy weapons.

I like the idea of making more use of chaplains, and with volume of attacks and rerolls all around, that's a nasty assault for any opponent, even terminators.


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Mind you they're absolutely most likely to be completely boned if the enemy gets good enough luck.


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Has anybody made use of the biomancy powers? I have a feeling my librarian could really benefit, especially from having T7 and S8 on the charge if I can get lucky and get that power, mind you, unless he has a force axe, he still wouldn't be somebody i'd throw into combat with terminators, although he'd likely be able to hold against a few attacks if I were to do so, and the other members of his unit could do their part I guess

But yeah, what do people think so far?

I'm thinking Blood Lance is a nice Anti-Aircraft weapon. No to-hit roll so Skyfire is not necessary. Decent enough range, especially on a Jump Libby.

Hi all, new on the forum after being a longtime lurker.
Been reading the thread and feel i must get involved as some people are really missing the point with DC.

6th edition DC are awsome theres no ''if's'' and ''but's'' about it. someone on here called them godly? thats exactly what they are. I believe DC have always been the pinicle of our book, and like with everything else in there it's looking past the problems and coming up with sollutions thats the key. everything has to work like a well oiled machine, each part complimenting another to do it's job. Thanks to matt ward we dont get greatness at low prices either. so it's a small well oiled machine!

in 5th ed the issue with DC was not having them run round the table like a cat on a laser pen. Solution? The ultimate 200 point assault vehicle. fill up a stormraven with DC, chaplain along with a dc dread because you can. I ran 2 stormravens, the other filled with meph and a furioso and this was the bases of my entire armys strike force. on a single turn you can assault the dred into troops, multi assault the dc at troops plus a vehicle with a fist or 2 and meph and the furioso into whatever else you want crippling half of an entire army. there is no greater feeling than killing of half a greyknights list watching your DC dreds talons chew through over 400 points worth of GK terminators one after another!

My point, there is nothing else that can hit as hard with that many attacks and re-rolls to hit and wound from chaplain as cheap. And now they have just been made superhuman almost. It's easy to think there not scoring units. so what! it doesn't seem to bother people when they spend 250 points on a LR Crusader that it's not scoring and now is useless from 4 glances?

For just over the same price as dante with 2 units of sanguinary guard you can blob 30 standard DC on foot with a chaplain. How much of a threat to an opponent is knowing within 2 game turns the enemy will be able to assault with a possible 150 strength 5 attacks with re-rolls to hit and wound. Lets say only 50% get in. thats still 75 attacks with all the trimmings. 25% = 37 attacks. nothing can survive and with FNP they will be making it accross the board better than most.

The rules for flamers are better now. take ten DC with packs and Hand flamers and you have an ultra deepstrike assault/anti assault unit with +1 charge attack from hammer of wrath. And if anyone charges them first before your next turn you get to overwatch with auto hitting d3 attacks per flamer. I mean who relies on pistols anyway? deepstrike them in tight to Guard/nids/tau. Shooting, flame the lot then get your 2d6 assault move to close the deal.

if your playing 2k put astorath in and take another 30. 60 raging dc coming at you across the board leaving plenty to spend on whatever you want. Heavy weapons? you could save and drop the chaplain and blob all 60.

The possibilty's are endless but i reacon DC are a must in any BA list in 6th to say the least.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I'd be wary about fielding units of 30 (and you're saying multiple) - if you fought guard, that just sounds like a very nasty Death Company pizza on the battlefield..

Hmm, Chaplain + DC squad + DC dread + Stormraven sounds like a pretty awesome allied force.

Although considering DC dread talons are AP3, it won't be blending any terminator squads. Far from it.

As for Hand Flamers, if you take one, may as well take two and fire both.

I didn't really like sending EDIT DC Dread (for some reason I said termies) into CC with terminators before, and that's no different now, so that's not as big a deal as it could be. But anything that is not terminator is pretty much mulch against such a monster with so many attacks and BT bonus.

6th is a deeply objective based game, death stars are not the greatest idea if you want to win games. If you run them in smaller squads like 10s, you'd probably be better off.

Yeah, I'm thinking 10, maybe 12 at the most, and not all over the board, but they can take care of the nastiest threats. I mean, somebody might field one single deathstar in an objectives game, and I can take it out with the DC and send them after other stuff provided they get the charge.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking 10, maybe 12 at the most, and not all over the board, but they can take care of the nastiest threats. I mean, somebody might field one single deathstar in an objectives game, and I can take it out with the DC and send them after other stuff provided they get the charge.

Yep. The other thing to consider is that some scenarios cater to specific FOC slots, so going with a single type of unit just won't work. I'd suggest maybe two squads of DC supported by something else. Fast attack and heavy support are going to be valuable too.

Stoffer wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking 10, maybe 12 at the most, and not all over the board, but they can take care of the nastiest threats. I mean, somebody might field one single deathstar in an objectives game, and I can take it out with the DC and send them after other stuff provided they get the charge.

Yep. The other thing to consider is that some scenarios cater to specific FOC slots, so going with a single type of unit just won't work. I'd suggest maybe two squads of DC supported by something else. Fast attack and heavy support are going to be valuable too.

Exactly, a couple units is all you need and you can have them hunt pretty much whatever.

Agreed. One large blast template at S10 over their heads and they have nothing to rely on other than a cover save. No doubt DC got a boost in 6th ed, but they still have one same problem that they had in 5th. How to get them across the table safely and efficiently?

I will not be buying SRs for two reasons; Their monetary price and the fact that if it gets shot down while zooming, its contents are toast. Oh, and they always start in reserve? WTF, c'mon GW. Best efficient option still (IMO) is a rhino. Even then, you'd have to saturate the target. If your opponent is smart, that'll be the first vehicle he shoots at anyway.

Comment on blood lance: YES! AMAZING! SOO GOOD! Psychic shooting attacks (witchfire) can now be fired out of a vehicle moving 12" WITHOUT ANY PENALTIES!!! That means Blood lance has an effective threat range (one average) of 24" while the Libby is embarked on a rhino.

Comment on psychic powers: Haven't used biomancy yet. So far, I like telepathy and divination. It is important to me that the discipline has a good Primaris power since the powers you get are random, you gotta have a decent backup. Prescience is really awesome! Grants you re-rolls to hit while the spell is in effect. That means shooting and assaulting. And maybe even overwatch? Have to check on that. Aside from the Primaris powers, Invisibility is wayyyyy too good to pass up. So is Hallucination.However you have to have Warp Charge 2 to use them, but I'll pay the 50 point upgrade to make the epistolarys. Keep this in mind too, I am trying to stay away from malediction and witchfire spells as everyone gets a defense against them now.

talons are no longer chewing termies i know. i refer to the old days and my lucky rolling.

as for the 30, 60 man units. they were just examples. what i'm trying to say is even though san guard are now much better. for the cost to buy dante and a couple of units you could buy DC equivelant which is far better at it's job. with guard your talking one guard armys shooting at one unit. plus they've got to make silly rolls with lasguns first.

the above are really just examples of running DC heavy without astorath. the fact that he's now better, still doesn't make me think he's worth taking over other stuff. The only time i would run him is for the other benefits allowing me red thirst easier and to squad the dc only. A strike force needs to take all comers. 2 fists in a unit of 10 DC allow reroll to hit against vehicles. with a possible 8 glances your landraider or whatever is gone. on a troop unit it's killing them hands down. and thats only 10 troops.

it's the best assault unit we have. 10 DC compared to a unit of similar cost termies. claw, hammer whatever. termies wont win even with saves. Termies are tougher yes but thats not what i'm saying. to win you first have to kill stuff and nothing does it quiet like DC.

For the last year i've run DC in my list at various things. Blob necron warriors, lysander and his termie unit, mordrak and ghost knights, fateweaver and daemon's, marines, loads of things. Very very very rarely have they not destroyed things. The volume of assaulting dice with re-rolls is ridiculous and there's a combination of weapon loadouts to beat anything. I'm not saying there unbeatable don't get me wrong but you'd have to spend silly points in return.

At the end of the day it's what you do with them. sit there you'll die. drop pod, stormraven, razorback, rhino or landraider. get them in combat they will perform everytime.

Oh no, I don't disagree about how they'd wreck termies. Just gotta be responsible with how you use them, and even with the 30-man unit, that's.....well, that's overkill but I suppose you could see it as having a very long-lasting deathstar-hunter.

The big question is whether the Raven's special disembarkation rule works when zooming. The rulebook states models cannot embark or disembark from a zooming flier, but they can't do that from a transport moving flat-out either, and the Raven has a special rule for that situation. Is this in either the IG or Blood Angels FAQ? I can't access GW's site from work, unfortunately.

Also, you can only run one unit of DC without Astorath so one 30-man unit with no backup unit is especially dangerous, imho.

Taking 30 Death Company nets you the same result as a squad of 10-15 most of the time. 30 is a waste of points.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Taking 30 Death Company nets you the same result as a squad of 10-15 most of the time. 30 is a waste of points.

QFT. You'd be hard pressed to get 30 bodies in a 2" melee range. Not to mention how unwieldy it would be to move that many around the table.

thunderlips wrote:talons are no longer chewing termies i know. i refer to the old days and my lucky rolling.

as for the 30, 60 man units. they were just examples. what i'm trying to say is even though san guard are now much better. for the cost to buy dante and a couple of units you could buy DC equivelant which is far better at it's job. with guard your talking one guard armys shooting at one unit. plus they've got to make silly rolls with lasguns first.

the above are really just examples of running DC heavy without astorath. the fact that he's now better, still doesn't make me think he's worth taking over other stuff. The only time i would run him is for the other benefits allowing me red thirst easier and to squad the dc only. A strike force needs to take all comers. 2 fists in a unit of 10 DC allow reroll to hit against vehicles. with a possible 8 glances your landraider or whatever is gone. on a troop unit it's killing them hands down. and thats only 10 troops.

it's the best assault unit we have. 10 DC compared to a unit of similar cost termies. claw, hammer whatever. termies wont win even with saves. Termies are tougher yes but thats not what i'm saying. to win you first have to kill stuff and nothing does it quiet like DC.

For the last year i've run DC in my list at various things. Blob necron warriors, lysander and his termie unit, mordrak and ghost knights, fateweaver and daemon's, marines, loads of things. Very very very rarely have they not destroyed things. The volume of assaulting dice with re-rolls is ridiculous and there's a combination of weapon loadouts to beat anything. I'm not saying there unbeatable don't get me wrong but you'd have to spend silly points in return.

At the end of the day it's what you do with them. sit there you'll die. drop pod, stormraven, razorback, rhino or landraider. get them in combat they will perform everytime.

Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Edit: You can basically math your way out of it. If you have something like 7 infantry units with red thirst, Astorath becomes worth if in place of priests.

Mordechai wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Taking 30 Death Company nets you the same result as a squad of 10-15 most of the time. 30 is a waste of points.

QFT. You'd be hard pressed to get 30 bodies in a 2" melee range. Not to mention how unwieldy it would be to move that many around the table.

Yeah, exactly. Only realistic uses of that big a blob would be to brutally assault (and if that fails, tarpit and still win the assault) but it's an expensive points sink and leaves a lot of guys unable to attack. The other feasible idea would be to multi-assault, but if anybody is stupid enough to stick two units close by each other, open to a 30-man DC charge, they deserve to lose anyways.

So realistically, as long as the other player knows what he's getting into, 30-man DC mobs is just a bad idea.

I'd get to get some thoughts on how people are going to field their DA.

I think Jump Packs are still too expensive, and I want to exploit the new Rapid Fire + Relentless rules. So I'm looking at fielding 10-15 on foot with Bolters and 1-2 power fists. I have also considered Drop Podding them in, but I hate actually buying Drop Pod models. $40 for something that lets me Deep Strike a unit and then sits there and does nothing? Meh.

Not a fan of the Stormravens either, I think they're just too expensive and you end up with two 200 point vehicles toting around 400 points worth of stuff (DC + DC Dread) and that's pretty much your army.

DC Dreads are awesome, Str 10 I4 5 attacks on the charge is NICE, but once again, it's Drop Pod (meh) or Stormraven (meh).

Griever wrote:I'd get to get some thoughts on how people are going to field their DC.

Fixed

Mordechai wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Taking 30 Death Company nets you the same result as a squad of 10-15 most of the time. 30 is a waste of points.

QFT. You'd be hard pressed to get 30 bodies in a 2" melee range. Not to mention how unwieldy it would be to move that many around the table.

You also have to consider that if you multi charge, you loose the +2A and +1F. How many single units require 30 DC to be taken care of?

Rugrud wrote:

Mordechai wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Taking 30 Death Company nets you the same result as a squad of 10-15 most of the time. 30 is a waste of points.

QFT. You'd be hard pressed to get 30 bodies in a 2" melee range. Not to mention how unwieldy it would be to move that many around the table.

You also have to consider that if you multi charge, you loose the +2A and +1F. How many single units require 30 DC to be taken care of?

Yeah, if you multi-assault then you lose 2/5 of your attacks and have a lower chance of wounding. That's huge. They might even lose the assault because of it (unless they're fighting a semi-ways decent assault unit in there somewhere).

Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

Stoffer wrote:
Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Red Thirst grants FC and Fearless, not FNP. Taking Astorath for fearless though is pretty valuable alone. Still, not enough IMO to take him to the field. I'd rather field Epistolary Librarians on bikes.

J Mac wrote:

Stoffer wrote:
Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Red Thirst grants FC and Fearless, not FNP. Taking Astorath for fearless though is pretty valuable alone. Still, not enough IMO to take him to the field. I'd rather field Epistolary Librarians on bikes.

Ah yeah, you're right of course.

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Stoffer wrote:
Astorath is huge for the 1-3 red thirst though. If you're running a list with a lot of infantry (Devs, scouts and/or assault marines) he might be worth it purely for the 50/50 chance of FnP. I don't like FNP much for assaulting units after it was nerfed, but if I have 3 dev squads with FnP they become a bitch to dig out. Bikes, dreads, you name it, red thirst is valuable.

Edit: You can basically math your way out of it. If you have something like 7 infantry units with red thirst, Astorath becomes worth if in place of priests.

Red thirst does not give you FNP.
It's furious charge and fearless
Edit: Ninja'd ; )

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Halberds could be considered a lance(spear) weapon. I would consider them a lance weapon, however since they are a bit "unusual" they could be considered an AP3 weapon. Honestly, I would leave it up to your preference and as long as you make it clear with your opponent ahead of the battle, should be no problem. As I said before, GW has balanced the PW varieties and they all have their pros and cons. However, I could see some WAAC opponent insisting it is one or the either. TFG is a jerk, and just play by his rules if you don't really care.

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Pretty sure a Halberd is counted as a Power Axe according to the entry for Power Axes. The only exception is GK halberds which follow their own rules since they are "unusual" power weapons.

I could see that, lets count it as a Power Lance/Axe!!! +3str on the charge at I1

haha, I'm joking obviously. Maybe since it is such a debate, it should be unusual and it really is AP3 ccw.

J Mac wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

So I modeled my Sanguinary Guard with Halberds... at the time I was just fulfilling the two handed power weapon requirement but now what do I do? Are they Unusual AP3 or Spears? If they didn't look so damn cool I would switch out the weapons, I'll play them however the rules say I just don't know for sure what to call them...

Halberds could be considered a lance(spear) weapon. I would consider them a lance weapon, however since they are a bit "unusual" they could be considered an AP3 weapon. Honestly, I would leave it up to your preference and as long as you make it clear with your opponent ahead of the battle, should be no problem. As I said before, GW has balanced the PW varieties and they all have their pros and cons. However, I could see some WAAC opponent insisting it is one or the either. TFG is a jerk, and just play by his rules if you don't really care.

This is an excellent point. The power weapons are balanced to each other and cost the same in army lists so you could use any profile as long as you are consistent and can justify it with the model. I had no idea my spartan themed sanguinary guard would get so complicated. Thanks for the feedback.

The Glaive Encarmine entries specifies two handed but I don't know if that helps to tell the difference between axe or spear profile?

J Mac wrote:

Omegus wrote:

BladeWalker wrote:Did not see the Glaive Encarmine in the FAQ, is it in the Rulebook chart? Does it depend if it is an axe/sword/etc or is it one profile? Wondering what happened to my Glaives with edition change. I am loving that I mixed in axes with my Vanguards, they can truly handle about anything now.

They are "unusual power weapons", so AP3 power swords, essentially.

I don't think so. They are labeled in their entry as "master crafted power weapons." clearly stating it is a power weapon. Unusual power weapon would be something in its entry listed like a "power flail" or "power mace". The fact that it is a power weapon means however it is modeled, becomes the ruling for it.

Not a fan of how this works, as it abuses modeling for advantage, which is something GW has ALWAYS been against. However, they have balanced every profile to make somewhat fair. For example, power maul grants +2 str but is only AP4, or the axe which is +1 str at AP2, but will strike last due to unwieldy.

Check the FAQ and notice Lemartes' entry. His Blood Crozius weapon is a power maul, while the Codex itself specifies that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Obviously, the fancy-shmancy name doesn't matter, it's what it is in effect that is key. Hence Glaive Encarmines are master-crafted power weapons, since a fancy name isn't an extra special rule. Also since it doesn't specify whether they're swords, I would assume that Sanguinary Guard can be modelled with either/or legally (and you won't even be TFG since the box comes with axes).

Yeah, I'd probably use their swords but I'm glad the option is available to me if it's true.

I'd say three with swords, one with an axe and one with a fist. More AP2 for free isn't bad.

Omegus wrote:The big question is whether the Raven's special disembarkation rule works when zooming. The rulebook states models cannot embark or disembark from a zooming flier, but they can't do that from a transport moving flat-out either, and the Raven has a special rule for that situation. Is this in either the IG or Blood Angels FAQ? I can't access GW's site from work, unfortunately.

No question or FAQ needed. It follows the same logic with the Vendetta and follows as such;

A 'Zooming' flier can either move at combat speed or cruising speed. Skies of blood (/grav chute insertion) require you to move flat out. Simples Sorry! All wrong, zooming fliers can move flat-out. So you can do it by the same logic.

Griever wrote:I'd get to get some thoughts on how people are going to field their DA.

I think Jump Packs are still too expensive, and I want to exploit the new Rapid Fire + Relentless rules. So I'm looking at fielding 10-15 on foot with Bolters and 1-2 power fists. I have also considered Drop Podding them in, but I hate actually buying Drop Pod models. $40 for something that lets me Deep Strike a unit and then sits there and does nothing? Meh.

Not a fan of the Stormravens either, I think they're just too expensive and you end up with two 200 point vehicles toting around 400 points worth of stuff (DC + DC Dread) and that's pretty much your army.

DC Dreads are awesome, Str 10 I4 5 attacks on the charge is NICE, but once again, it's Drop Pod (meh) or Stormraven (meh).

Furioso Librarians costs 175pts compared to the 165pts of a DC Dread & DP not to mention the 60pts+ on DC. Fleet doesn't allow you to travel further (i.e. faster) it merely makes that movement more reliable, so effectively everything without fleet has become a bit quicker. The libbie gets 5-7 attacks and AV13 whilst the DC dread gets 7 attacks and AV12. Adding wings to cover ground more quickly.. I think if your not including a strong core of DC, then the Furioso libbie is the better option compared to the DC dread.

Also in a thread related note - How do we fit in either;
1) Lots of troops, potentially MSU (Lots of combat squads?)
2)Troops + Fast Attack & Heavy Support?

I think that depends, people were mentioning earlier about possible loss of fast rules for the BA transports? I'm still waiting on my rulebook (stupidly asked them to deliver it here) but that might affect my take on the questions you've asked here.

Zooming fliers can also go flat out, so that's not an answer. And skies of blood has been FAQd to change "flat out" to "more than 6"".

Omegus wrote:Zooming fliers can also go flat out, so that's not an answer. And skies of blood has been FAQd to change "flat out" to "more than 6"".

I just realised my mistake (see edit) but now you mention the FAQ (good spot) so.. yeah! Cheers

Does this mean that the Stormraven can have units disembark if it zooms?

Red Comet wrote:Does this mean that the Stormraven can have units disembark if it zooms?

As I understand it, yes. However, it's considered a deep strike, so you lose the ability to assault.

It'd only be for units with Jump Packs too, so 6 guys max.

Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

That'd be the smallest MSU list ever haha. Especially since you'd be running 4 Stormravens (including a GK ally), tops. Not to mention the expense, points-wise.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:That'd be the smallest MSU list ever haha. Especially since you'd be running 4 Stormravens (including a GK ally), tops. Not to mention the expense, points-wise.

QFT. I........very much doubt I'd ever try it.

You don't have to have jump packs to use the raven's special rule.

For missions where you play length-wise, it may be a good way to get that DC and Chaplain far up the board without risking losing the whole unit if the raven gets blown out of the sky.

I think I remember reading something about hovering to use it. Ill double check when i get home.

t's the best assault unit we have. 10 DC compared to a unit of similar cost termies. claw, hammer whatever. termies wont win even with saves. Termies are tougher yes but thats not what i'm saying. to win you first have to kill stuff and nothing does it quiet like DC.

How do you outfit your DC? I'd opt for 2 power fists per 10 DC Marines.

DoA seems very good now.
You get re-roll for reserves don't you? So 3+ turn two with re-roll= nearly whole army on the bored turn two.
Ahh, but are you allowed to keep your whole army in reserve? (sorry if its been discussed already, i've been reading through most of the army discussions on here, and haven't looked at every page of all of them).

rodgers37 wrote:DoA seems very good now.
You get re-roll for reserves don't you? So 3+ turn two with re-roll= nearly whole army on the bored turn two.
Ahh, but are you allowed to keep your whole army in reserve? (sorry if its been discussed already, i've been reading through most of the army discussions on here, and haven't looked at every page of all of them).

No, just half of the army can be kept in reserve. Therefore a hybrid list seems to be the way to go.

For instance, some durable tanks like Preds and Vindies supported by Dread and the rest Assault Marines with jump packs. I'd take full squads with 2 meltas each. If combat squadded, one half can go for the enemy tanks and the other half goes for objectives.

Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

The tank base would be to crack open transports and get the meaty parts out. Also to hopefully smash heavy support. With Vindicators now S10 on the entire template you have higher chances of doing just that. Hope for transports being close together and slap the template over 2 of them. 2nd wave comes in turn 2 with re-rolls.

Also I'm concidering Capt. Tycho more now as Dead Man's hand flat out ignores armor and a 2+ armor save.

Yeah, on Tycho's part, and now at least if somebody chooses to take his DC variant he's a little less hilarious a choice XD

I was building up my own BA DOA army when 6th dropped, now I am working with this mind-boggling amount of info (btw, thanks for all of these wonderful discussions!)

I had been tossing around the idea of a VV Squad, 5 strong, with fun weapons to kill things. Now that wound allocation is different, and PW are AP3, i have a few questions. (My Rulebook won't arrive till the 11th, grrrrrrrr) Q1: Do Thunder hammers ignore armor? I would think so, since they are closer related to PFs.

I had also played around with Storm Shields, trying to get a feel for their staying power vs cost. In setup 1, I had TH Serg 2x Double Lightning Claw Vets, and 2 plain vets. The idea was to cause damage and get into combat to avoid getting shot. Setup 2 was Serg and 2x Vets with 1 LC and 1 SS. Steal dishing out plenty of pain, but additional staying power. In both cases, the 2 plain vets kept points down and were for wound allocation. So the questions:

Q2: More of a "see what the discussion brings", but what setup do you think would preform best? Now that LC don't kill TEQs, their sole purpose will be to hunt down troops/heavy weapon squads. From my limited experence with them, Setup 1 (litterally) cuts to the chase for cheaper but dies easier. Setup 2 might be much better this time to get the 3+ Inv vs Heavy Weapon Snap Fire.

Q3: What to do with the two plain guys? position them to replicate the allocation fodder of old? Or spend the points to match the rest of the unit? I could see more of an argument to match them in Setup 2, to get matching saves.

I also feel kind of dumb, a month or two ago I traded in my DC at my FLGS to help buy more standard Assault Troops. That I have not assembled yet, and that I am cutting to add a DC back in....... Oh look, its Captain Hindsight!

Well, naturally if you're making a VV squad yeah, SS will be a must, but I'd be probably willing to say that in a squad of 5, maybe 2 or 3 SS might be a good investment, with TH or PF as the likely other armament. But if you're really thinking of making it a strong anti-TEQ squad, perhaps a couple more men or at least just pack on storm shields and then just HI right into their ranks, break 'em.

But I dunno, I really haven't had much experience with them. TH's would be helpful though, and I'd consider maybe just like, 1 guy bearing dual LC's or 2 with 1 LC and SS, just to have some diversity and take out mooks if they are still alive after fighting termies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and I'm really pleased with all the discussion too! The BA with 6th are a force to be reckoned with.

For Question 1 I'd tell you that yes Thunder Hammers can take down Terminators since they are either AP2 or AP1. I can't recall at the moment.

Question 2: I think it might be best to figure out for yourself depending on the rest of your list. It all depends on what role you want the squad to have or if you just want an all comers squad.

Question 3: I'd use those random guys to take the hits that the Sgt. could possibly die to using Look Out Sir! Just make sure they are within 6 inches of the Sarge.

Red Comet wrote:Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

Well, a wall of Predators and Vindicators is still a decent force for shooty support thanks to counting as fast vehicles. Good luck to strip off that many hull points. In 5th, it was rather easy to silence tank guns by inflicting glancing hits. But now the tanks simply ignore this.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

I'd be inclined to mount a DC on foot into a Storm Raven accompanied by a Chaplain and a DC Dread. That's an absolutely deadly combo.

Keep in mind assaulting vehicles just became a lot more dangerous now. Use your tanks to open those battle wagons before you assault. Maybe it's because 5th made me so terrified to bring a SR with DC in them that I'm hesitant to jump on that band wagon. My build in light of 6th is turning more hybrid. Vindicators are an almost must.

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

wuestenfux wrote:

Red Comet wrote:Wuestenfux how is that good now? You have a lack of vehicle saturation so wouldn't it be easier to kill the vehicle portions or am I just thinking about this as if its 5th Edition?

Well, a wall of Predators and Vindicators is still a decent force for shooty support thanks to counting as fast vehicles. Good luck to strip off that many hull points. In 5th, it was rather easy to silence tank guns by inflicting glancing hits. But now the tanks simply ignore this.

That's true. Vehicles are now better short term. I'm going to have to see if a Hybrid list like what you are suggesting actually works. Everything I know about 40k is telling me no, but the vehicle rule changes could have changed things up more than I thought.

Praxiss wrote:

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

Yes it does.

What does everyone think of LR this edition? Does the Storm Raven just make a better assault vehicle for DC and such?
Ravens just feel a bit fragile to me, especially since you'll want it to hover if its carrying people so the passengers wont die if it blows up.

Praxiss wrote:

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

You can't assault after you disembark......wait, does the Stormraven have Assault Ramps?

Well it has. How long will the assault move be, since SG is jump infantry?

Still 2D6, but jump packs let you re-roll (not sure if it is both dice or just one).

Plus if the Raven is in Hover mode it can fire it guns at BS4 to gie you some covering fire on the charge. Just make sure it does actualyl move in Hove otherwise it doesn't get its 5+ Jink save.

The raven in hover gives the guys inside a potential 24" threat radius... 6" move with the raven, 6" disembark, and up to 12" assault move.

I'm fine with this, because in 5th edition, you had at most a 12" move, then a 2" disembark, and a 6" assault. So, the new edition effectively grants us a potential 4" extra (and because we have a re-roll, most assaults won't likely be below 20" anyway).

In addition to this extra assault potential, the raven is now much less vulnerable on the way to the assault drop, can get to the drop point faster (almost always in 1 turn from an assault) and we get that extra I10 impact hit from using jump packs to assault.

You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

Praxiss wrote:You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

So the unit inside the SR can charge in round 3+, not earlier. But if it zooms down in round 2, the enemy can see where the mounted unit will disembark since the SR can only move 6'' which is almost nothing. I'm still not convinced of this tactics.

Praxiss wrote:You wouldn't be able to get there in Turn one as Flyers have to start in reserve...although i think DOA give +1 to reserves?

So your Raven would come in on Turn 2 on a 2+, move up to 36" (Zoom) - and still fire 4 weapons at full BS I think. Turn 3 - enter Hover, move 6", deploy jump pack nastiness another 6" - charge 2D6 with re-rolls.

That IS nasty!

DoA gives a reroll to reserves, but it doesn't apply to the Stormraven. You'd still come in Turn 2 on a 3+. Jump packers will come in on a 3+ with a re-roll, which is better than a 2+.

Sadly, the effectiveness of the Raven is really dependent on how much Skyfire the opponent has - if he's got Hydras, for example, your Raven will come in Turn 2, get blown out of the sky, and kill everyone on board.

Now that I've said that, though, you can still go Flat Out and then Evade for a 4+ cover save, so you might live through one turn of shooting. That also gets you all the way to where you need to be, even if you're playing the silly mission where you deploy on short table edges - five feet of movement is pretty crazy. Hmm... this might require some further exploration.

I'm not really seeing the appeal of DC, though. Sanguinary Guard are better, in my opinion (Elites vs Troops notwithstanding). The difference between a 2+ and a 3+ save is just too big in 6th to pass up, and jump pack troops are significantly more likely to make their charges. Giving the DC jump packs makes them way too expensive.

Tried out the following last night:

1x Stormraven
-Asscan
-Multimelta
-8x DC
-1x Reclusiarch
-1x DC Dread

1x Stormraven
-Asscan
-Multimelta
-5x Ass. Terms., 4 TH/SS, 1 LC

3x Razorbacks w/ 5 Assault Troops (dual pistols) inside
-1 with TL Las and 2 with Asscans


It worked pretty well. Stormravens came on turn 2 and 3 and spent the first turn zooming and taking out anything that could shoot them down. Multimeltas and Bloodstrike missiles are pretty effective at killing anything with skyfire. After one turn of that, they hovered into position and dropped their payloads, which assaulted out of the hatch. DC Dread was AWESOME. The extra attack off of rage gives 6 on the charge, which makes Blood Talons just plain silly. Blendered an entire tactical squad by himself. Once I had my assault troops on the ground, the Stormravens had Air Superiority, and just mowed down tanks and troops at will.

The razorbacks weren't great, but did a pretty effective job of running a screen until the storm ravens showed up. I would probably find a different way to incorporate troops into a dual storm raven list.

3x Razorbacks w/ 5 Assault Troops (dual pistols) inside
-1 with TL Las and 2 with Asscans

Looks pretty fragile when it comes to scoring (holding objectives).

Horst wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, transporting jump infantry in those strikes me as odd, although at least now you could conceivably get some sort of MSU build out of it (but it'd be insane and they'd be blown out of the sky unless you plan accordingly)

I'm probably going to put sanguinary guard + HQ in a stormraven, along with a dread, and hold them in reserve. Once they come in, fly like a foot away from the enemy with the raven, then next turn go hover, move 6", disembark and attack. Keeps them from being shot up on the way in, and also guarantees I can put them wherever they are most needed.

Oh yes, I've done that. I guess I overlooked THAT jump infantry when I said it haha...

Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

stormraven comes in from reserve, whatever turn. makes one zoom move forward and shoots everything. lets hope it works miracles cus you will need them. opponents turn he focuses heavy fire on ground heavys. then all the other less usefull stuff, rifles even pistols that are in range at the stormraven. there will be some 6's. if it's orks who are mostly bs5 it's a dream come true cus they now have a 50% chance to hit with plenty of rounds! the stormraven comes down, things are dead and even the dread is not safe now. DC dread will stand a better chance hoping for a low pen roll for the ignores crew stunned crew shaken.

i played an experienced ork player monday eve and they came down a treat for him on the turn they came in, even with the dive move which failed all the rolls (too many). this was our first 6th game but the change and the possibilitys were all to clear. 2dc and the dread survived 1 explosion. granted the dread lived, assaulted like crazy max distance and chewed every living ork off the objective but the raven was a waste.

i say think about who you play in your local area and what they use, think about if what your putting inside is worth losing and can you get it there alternative ways.

troops +dread + stormraven is the same as 20+ troops, a dread and 3 drop pods with a bit left i reacon and they all have to take a turn of fire too. at least it's shared

if your going to use the gunship side then sweet but as transport there are different angles to look at i reacon. 50 points more stick things into a LR C and deepstrike it infront of enemys. it still has to sit there for a turn taking fire but the fact that it can only be penned by high strength fire will cancel alot of that risk surely. plus it get's to shoot everything in it's turn

thunderlips wrote:Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

I agree entirely. "Oh goody, Stormravens. Time to kill 2/3 of my opponent's army in 1 shooting phase!" Even if you kill your enemy's AA fire, if they have a few missile launchers they've still got a pretty decent chance to gun down the Stormraven too. The Land Raider's a decent idea, but it suffers the same problems it did in 5th Edition.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

thunderlips wrote:Stormravens are great, but in 6th the fact that all passengers suffer a S9 hit with no saves really needs to be weighed up. This may sound silly, infact no, it does sound silly but i found the best way to look at a stormraven is a 200 point disposable (the key word there) assault vehicle. you cannot rely on it to do anything after deployment. FACT. so if you have a strong enough list to cope when there down great.

You can say thats just got better because it can now zoom but it has to live to that stage and anybody who's any good will take it down quick. especially if it's full of d.c.

I agree entirely. "Oh goody, Stormravens. Time to kill 2/3 of my opponent's army in 1 shooting phase!" Even if you kill your enemy's AA fire, if they have a few missile launchers they've still got a pretty decent chance to gun down the Stormraven too. The Land Raider's a decent idea, but it suffers the same problems it did in 5th Edition.

Unless your opponent dedicates an INSANE amount of skyfire to shooting down the raven, I just don't see it happening.

1) if he has no skyfire, he's hitting on 6's.

2) Even if he has skyfire, almost all skyfire weapons are ap3 or higher (missiles, autocannons, etc)

3) AP3 weapons need a 6 on the damage charts to blow up a stormraven, and meltas aren't likely to penetrate them.

So... lets take a hydra as an example ( I think they have skyfire) You have a an average of 3 hits, thats 1/6 penetrate, 1/6 destroy, and 1/2 evade... so there is a 4% chance a hydra guns down a stormraven. I'm willing to take that risk. And thats from a unit dedicated to shooting down aircraft. If he REALLY has insane amounts of anti-air, and you don't think the raven will survive, just deep strike the cargo (the have jump pakcs anyway).

Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I think Sternguard may be the new workhorses among my Blood Angels, backed by Tactical Squads and Devastators, with Assault Squads relegated to a QRF, and Vanguards sent deep to pursue targets hiding from my heavy weapons.

^^ This could be interesting...

All drop pod armies are legal (read page 36, it says any passengers don't count...) , and you'll have something on the field at the end of turn 1.

Sternguard with combi-plas could be sick... 24" range plasma after pin-point landing or using the special ammo on turn 1? Take a Sang Priest and a Librarian with them to give them added effect as needed.

Drop pod with raven support... hmm... lot of options.

Horst wrote:

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

With AP2, a 5+ blows you up, yes?

I'm thinking I'll be running my Storm Raven either empty or with just dreadnought.
4 S8 AP1 shots and twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked assault cannon.
Everyone else will have their own transport; in a pinch the raven can pick up and relocate a squad.
I'm thinking it's going to play like a predator with 4 hunter killer missiles on it, that can double as air defense.

-Matt

The way I see it, stormraven is basically our only anti-air defense... everything else is either too inaccurate (auto/las predators), or too short ranged (TL assault cannons) to reliably shoot down transports.

I'm probably going to be taking 2 ravens in most games, for that reason alone. I need SOMETHING that can shoot down enemy planes, and str8 ap1 bloodstrikes are amazing for it.

So how do I field enough potent infantry for a DOA army (...without Sang Guard & Dante...)

Edit: DC - Never scoring but.. can they be Denial units??

If it is carrying a squad, Storm Raven could just come in on hover mode, flat out for 4+ Jinx save. Functioning just like how it used to last edition.

The one thing I hate about BA pod is that they only carry 10 people, so you cant carry a full squad plus characters.

Yeah, the DP is annoying although I usually just take an assault squad (and 2 furiosos each in DP's) so I can drop the furiosos on turn 1, and then drop the 3rd pod whenever, preferably where a priest can easily reach them and give them the Chalice bubble.

Horst wrote:

sdavid86 wrote:Not to mention, all the skyfire I've seen is only Str 7. That's the flakk missiles and the Hydra. So anything that hits needs a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. Just beware the Aegis Defense Line with the 72" skyfire interceptor lascannon

even then.. that lascannon needs a 3+ to hit, then a 4 to penetrate, then a 6 to blow me up, and I have at worst a 5+ cover save.

its not likely 1 lascannon will shoot down a stormraven, and those defense lascannons are at minimum 85 points each.

I think you're also discounting people just stripping away the hull points to wreck it, which should be easier than blowing it up outright.

DC are denial units. They just aren't scoring units.

If the enemy has skyfire or massed firepower then simply use the storm raven as a gunship instead of a transport option.

I've been running Astorath with 5 DC in the gunship in 5th and now it's even better. The DC dread still works wonders against basic troops but suffers against more elite units now.

I plan on adding a couple long range razor backs to with las cannons or assault cannons to my DoA army in order to have some long range firepower in the back field that can hopefully bust open a tank or two. I may switch to a vindicator (if only I had one available).

I see tactics being very much on the spot decision rather than point and click in 6th edition. I originally played Tau and every game was planning and adapting. This is more how all armies are for 6th edition whereas 5th degenerated into I'll throw this death star at you and laugh.

rogueeyes wrote: 5th degenerated into I'll throw this death star at you and laugh.

I still have a sinking feeling people will still do it, but with wound allocation I can now feasibly try and knock into a deathstar and take out that which I desire the most to kill...

Also multiple objectives. That kills deathstars more than anything and forces you to be more balanced. It's pretty awesome, GW did well on the new book.

All im gonna say is I'm testing an Immotekh Necron list with Mephiston... results to come.

Zid wrote:All im gonna say is I'm testing an Immotekh Necron list with Mephiston... results to come.

....mind if I add you so you can keep me posted on this idea? lol

At 2k, I'd be tempted to make a DC list with Grey Hunters and Deathwing support!

AP3 weapons need a 6 on the damage charts to blow up a stormraven, and meltas aren't likely to penetrate them.

Immobilizing is enough to destroy it.

It's nice to have mass FNP against units with power weapons. Grey Knights and Daemons seems less threatening now.

Quick list i totted up. Please criticise

Dc tycho
Chaplain
10xdc 2 pf
LR Crusader

2x razorbacks with HB and 5man ass squad pf melta
1x razorback with las and 5man ass squad pf melta

1x baal pred
2x vindicators with dozer extra armour

Scout bike unit with astartes grenade launchers on 2.

1750 or just under

It depends who you're playing against. Thats's a lot of armour for my gauss and scarabs to melt/eat.

Titan Atlas wrote:

Zid wrote:All im gonna say is I'm testing an Immotekh Necron list with Mephiston... results to come.

....mind if I add you so you can keep me posted on this idea? lol

Check the battle reports page in a week or so, I'm going to a 2k tourney with it. List is here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459529.page

thunderlips wrote:Quick list i totted up. Please criticise

Dc tycho
Chaplain
10xdc 2 pf
LR Crusader

2x razorbacks with HB and 5man ass squad pf melta
1x razorback with las and 5man ass squad pf melta

1x baal pred
2x vindicators with dozer extra armour

Scout bike unit with astartes grenade launchers on 2.

1750 or just under

DC Tycho isn't an independent character, he can't join units (which is really slowed, I know).

Oh yeah i always forget that as i never usehim.could run him behind the LR C?

Plus he's got fleet! Blood angels have a decent amount of fleeting units when I think about it.

Looks awful: http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/40k-6th-edition-batrep-shoota-boyz-vs-assault-marines-part-13

Yeah... honestly, it's silly but I doubt it's very good at all. And there being a 1/6 chance every turn that Mephiston will stand around and look angry kind of sucks.

Dumb question. Does Shield of Sanguinius still effect units around the transport the Librarian is in?

Not sure. In 5th they ruled that non-shooting effects didn't work if you were inside a transport.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah... honestly, it's silly but I doubt it's very good at all. And there being a 1/6 chance every turn that Mephiston will stand around and look angry kind of sucks.

Only if Mephiston is within 6". Just keep him outside that and you're fine.

Played a few games today!

Stuff that didn't work:

Overwatch is a killer. It's awful to charge against and can be super punishing.

Hammer is fairly useless as it's only models in base. I typically get 3-5 models in base, so it never actually does much (I lost more troops to overwatch than I killed with Hammer)

FnP worked fairly well in close combat (it basically gives you a built in save against special kit characters) but the nerf is brutal playing against something like a Necron or GK list in the shooting phase.

BA doesn't have a lot of invuln saves which is super detrimental to challenges. Most of the time you get challenged, you get challenged by a character with power weapons, which means you're screwed. Libbies, power weapon sergeants etc are hosed. That basically forces priests back into the mix for FnP.

Stuff that worked:

I have a few Vindicators lying around and they were awesome. They pretty much blew stuff off the table every turn. Full strength on vehicles is an absolute monster. Added to this, most coversaves are downgraded to 5s these days, which wrecks stuff.

I'm not a big fan of the new movement rules but the upside is choice. Having different solutions for different situations is always nice, even if both of those solutions are slightly flawed.

Reserves with re-rolls means you come in quick. Really quick.

Multiple objectives are awesome for mobile armies. I took first blood in all my games and points for being inside the opponents deployment zone when the game ends is fairly automatic if you're deepstriking and causing havoc.

Sorry if this has already been posted (I'm not trawling through all 9 pages) but is Corbulo epically good now. Can't be picked out, Rending gives him ap2 and a 2+ FNP thats harder to ignore? Definitely seems worth the points for a decent squad boost.

Fast vehicle mean the Lascannon/TL Plasma Gun Razorback can move 12" and fire both weapons. Hell even Vanguard may see a way in with the possible 12" charge.

Yes, Corbulo owns now. I'd put him with a squad of terminators.

He still only gives the 2+ to himself, nobody else benefits from that. Remember that.


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But 2 wounds and being a halfway decent fighter makes him a nice little upgrade to your run-of-the-mill priest.

I may have missed this, but I am wondering if BA Rhino varients are still fast ? the BRB says the codex trumps BRB general rules for models, so logic would state that, yes they are still fast. However the BRB is damn BIG and i could have missed something (only picked it up this afternoon)

They are fast until somebody from GW slams it over our head that, in this circumstance, there was the case where our rhinos would not be fast.

But for now, they are fast until proven otherwise once and for all

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Not sure. In 5th they ruled that non-shooting effects didn't work if you were inside a transport.

When did they rule it that way? I don't recall it ever working that way in 5th edition at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Comet wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Not sure. In 5th they ruled that non-shooting effects didn't work if you were inside a transport.

When did they rule it that way? I don't recall it ever working that way in 5th edition at all.

It was in the last BRB FAQ for 5th ed (Released in April I think). It said, "Can you use a fire point on a vehicle to trace line of sight for a character's special rule? No.

It really nerfed Njal as he was super squishy, so getting him out was almost a guaranteed death for him.

If they take 'Fast' away from us, they better take the 15 pt price tag with it. Paying it without that makes no sense; lucifer engines have been a part of blood angels since 3rd IIRC. Mind you each codex brought different rules to it, they have still always had faster than normal tanks. If any tries to argue you otherwise, codex trumps BRB except in the case of a FAQ that state otherwise.