So correct me if I am wrong, but GK Deamon Hammers are force weapons.

Kharn's 'Blessing of the Blood God" special rules state that : "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

So if Kharn gets hit with a Str8 Daemon Hammer, it cannot ID him because of blessing of the blood god, whether it activates or not, it is still a force weapon right.

Also consider rad grenades that lower enemy toughness. If he becomes T3 and then gets hit by a bunch of double hammerhand or hammerhand + might of the titan force weapons(nemisis halberds/swords/staves) they also cannot ID him.

The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemon Hammer is not a Force weapon, it is a Nemesis Force Weapon.

which are force weapons with additional rules

you would still double toughness him, so unless you turned on the Force weapon it would stil cause instant death.

why cant he be ID? if hes T4 or T3 with rad grenades, and is hit by a Daemonhammer at str 8 or 10 with hammerhand, and he fails his inv, hes dead.

Hammerhand and might of titan aren't attacks against him, therefore he can't use deny the witch.

Treat nemesis daemonhammers as thunderhammers, but against psykers and daemons, they take additional tests etc

Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is twice that of Kharn's toughness

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
you would still double toughness him, so unless you turned on the Force weapon it would stil cause instant death.

I dunno... it is still a Force weapon.

The rule doesn't say an "activated" Force weapon. Just Force weapon.

I can see the argument in favor of Karn.

Just saying...

I'd be inclined just to accept it, having Khrones blessing shouldn't really matter so much after his head has been caved into his chest cavity.

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Instant Death by double strength doesn't rely on the weapon, the rule says if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that is double their toughness they suffer Instant Death.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Instant Death by double strength doesn't rely on the weapon, the rule says if a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that is double their toughness they suffer Instant Death.

but the weapon is being used to deliver the hit. If it wasn't Kharn would get an armor save.

Kharn cannot suffer instant death if he should take a wound from an activated force weapon but he will die outright to strength equal or greater than his toughness... This could be a daemon hammer or a Nemesis force weapon striking at S6 and he is at T3 due to rad grenades.

 Exergy wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
Scorpio has it correct, Kharn is immune to the ID effect of Force Weapons when activated, if the Daemon Hammer is not activated it is still causing ID because the wielder's strength is still twice that of Kharn's toughness

I dont see why whether it is activated or not matters. The special rule is that force weapons cannot ID him. It makes no mention of the method by which the force weapon inflicts ID, all are ignored.

Force Weapons can not ID him.

The only way for a Force weapon to do that is to activate the force property of the weapon.

When the characters Strength is double the targets Toughness the Wounds cause ID, but that is not the Force weapon causeing ID, that is the wound by virtue of its Strength that is double the targets Toughness.

Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Incorrect. RAW he dies to Str double tough as he did not "suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon" the wound had nothing to do with the force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Ub3rb3n wrote:
Raw he doesn't get die, rai he dies

Incorrect. RAW he dies to Str double tough as he did not "suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon" the wound had nothing to do with the force weapon.

Well he did suffer an unsaved wound from a force weapon. GW's terrible wording strikes again. It just happened to be an unactivated FW, double the models (T)

But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

100% this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

100% this.

I'm teetering on this one RAW, however RAI I completely agree, as well as HIWPI. Just wanted to get that across.

the Str is double the models T, however it was from a wound inflicted by a Force Weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

The attack (and the strength bonus it has) was from the weapon.

If Kharn gets wounded by a weapon with S8+, then that weapon has caused an instant death wound. Since it's also a force weapon (even if it is an unusual force weapon), then by RAW it triggers Kharn's rule.

RAW - Kharn is safe.

HIWPI (as a Khorne player) - Kharn is gibbed.

Except that it was not the force weapon that caused ID, it was the Str of the attack that causes ID, not the force weapon.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except that it weas not the force weapon that caused ID, it was the Str of the attack that causes ID, not the force weapon.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage. This would be negated by Kharn's special rule. I understand that it is not the ability of the FW that is trying to kill him, but the Strength of it. The simple fact that it is a FW (NFW at that).

Come to think of it this Codex was written after the GK one was, so the writers were well aware of the Holy Thunda Hammas of Death, and could have written it as such: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon may not be activated to ID him."

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID. How does a force weapon do that?

By the psyker expending a warp charge point and rolling a psychic test for the force psychic power.

Str double tough is not how a force weapon inflicts ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID. How does a force weapon do that?

By the psyker expending a warp charge point and rolling a psychic test for the force psychic power.

Str double tough is not how a force weapon inflicts ID.

You are completey ignoring what type of weapon is doing the damage .... this is not how RAW works.

Question: Was the damage enough to ID Kharn ... YES
Question: Did the damage come from any sort of FW .... YES
Question: Can a FW of any sort be used to ID him ... NO

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

The rule states that ID caused by force weapons don't kill Kharn. It doesn't say "ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn." All it says is "ID caused by Force Weapons do not kill Kharn." Thus, as it's written, If ID is caused by a force weapon, period, it does not kill Kharn.

Thinking about it logically, and using context, we can tell that what the author meant is that ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn, meaning that ID caused by good ol' S double the T will kill him. But that is not RAW, because it isn't written anywhere in the ruling that "activated" force weapons can not ID him. Thus, it's RAI.

You are completely ignoring the context of the rule.

The rules are talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

There is a defined process of how this happens described on P. 37

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

You have that incorrect.

Without context we have nothing.

The Daemonhammer is a Force Weapon. If it IDs Khârn, be it by virtue of striking with S8 or higher or by using a Warp Charge to inflict ID, it violates Khârn's special rule.

Is anyone else bothered by GW's copy and paste job with a lot of the CSM rules? I mean they go ahead and update the part of the rule dealing with psychic powers into 6th edition terms but not the Force Weapon bit. It should say "weapon with the force special rule". I can see the arguments with the Manreaper or Black Staff of Ahriman now....

RAW Kharn would ignore the ID. Why? Because its ID from a Force Weapon. The rule doesn't specify whether or not its a activated Force Weapon. You can play it as he doesn't ignore it, however if someone plays it RAW, you can't stop them.

The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
That may very well be the intent, however RAW it is a Force Weapon that inflicted the damage.

Only if you ignore context is it RAW.

That's why it's called RAW. RAW is when you ignore context. RAI is when you factor in context.

The rule states that ID caused by force weapons don't kill Kharn. It doesn't say "ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn." All it says is "ID caused by Force Weapons do not kill Kharn." Thus, as it's written, If ID is caused by a force weapon, period, it does not kill Kharn.

Thinking about it logically, and using context, we can tell that what the author meant is that ID caused by activated force weapons do not kill Kharn, meaning that ID caused by good ol' S double the T will kill him. But that is not RAW, because it isn't written anywhere in the ruling that "activated" force weapons can not ID him. Thus, it's RAI.

yeah, I dont think it is intended to work this way, but the wound came from a force weapon and activated or not Kharns rule ignores ID from force weapons RAW

Mywik wrote:
The Force Weapon is not what inflicts the wound. The daemon hammer doubles the wielders strength and can be used to inflict force weapon wounds. The str8 wound is therefore no force weapon wound. Thats how we play it anyway.

By that logic Force Weapons can ID Khârn; it's not the force weapon that kills him, it's the "Force" special rule.

Shenanigans, The Force USR is a property of the force weapon itself. (though there may or may not be some legal loophole with which to bypass Khârns' immunity to such, this isn't one of them)

Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

40k-noob wrote:

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

You're correct. Though do take into account that RAW that rule does pretty much nothing.
RAW Force weapon (activated or not) never causes Instant Death. It's the unsaved wound that does. Kharn's rule specifies that the "weapon cannot inflict Instant Death" and the weapon is not inflicting ID, it's the wound.

RAI is pretty obvious in this case though: Use of Force Special rule cannot cause Kharn to suffer ID.

 Neorealist wrote:
Shenanigans, The Force USR is a property of the force weapon itself. (though there may or may not be some legal loophole with which to bypass Khârns' immunity to such, this isn't one of them)

The 2x Strength is also a property of the weapon itself. If your attack S=(T*2) you ID people. If your attack has the "Force" special rule (activated) you ID people. Both are properties of the weapons.

Kharn would be immune to Instant Death.

A Force Weapon cannot inflict instant death to Kharn, period.

Whether it's trying to inflict instant death by using the Force rule, being strength 10,000,000 or physically setting the model in question on fire, Kharn cannot suffer instant death from a Force weapon.

here's how this synaptic misfire of a thread should have gone:

Khaarn gets hit by a Daemon Hammer, which is a Str x2 force weapon. he takes a wound.
is it an instant death wound? yes.
is it a force weapon? yes.
is Kharn dead? no

Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Context is not rules.

Kharns rule states me cannot suffer ID from a force weapon.

A force hammer is a force weapon

A force hammer happens to double the users strength, making the user normally str 8. This would inflict ID, but it cannot, since the force weapon cannot inflict ID.

A force weapon that automatically inflicts instant death does nothing to kharn.

As GW to FAQ it to state an "Activated" force weapon. Until then, kharn will survive a single force hammer swing, though he's probably still worried about this bazillion halberds coming his way.

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

Problem is that you are ignoring the actual rule in it's context. RAW the Hammer can never inflict ID on Kharn .... EVER. The rule does not say activated anywhere in it. Just that a FW can NEVER inflict ID.

You are reading further into it and adding ACTIVATED ... that word appears nowhere in the rule.

RAW it can never ID him.

RAI I honestly believe that it should.

Then again I think that Astorath's axe should have been left a unique power weapon going at his regular ini. That was FAQ'd to not be the case though.

This boils down to 2 outcomes;
You rule that kharn doesnt die, and the defence is that kharn cannot be ID by wounds caused by a force weapon.
Is the hammer a force weapon? Yes.
Does the rule specify whether it needed to be activated? No.
Does the hammer ALWAYS have the FORCE USR? Yes.
Kharn doesnt die, as wounds ARE caused by weapons.
The other argument is that Kharn dies, because the daemon hammer isnt an activated force weapon at the time.
This runs into a problem however, in that Kharns rule DOES NOT SPECIFY ACTIVATED FORCE WEAPONS. So this is not a viable basis for this argument RAW.
The other consensus seems to be that because it is the instant death rule killing him, he would actually die. But where does that X2 strength come from?
The daemon hammer.
And what does the grey knight use to wound kharn?
The daemon hammer.
There simply is no grounds for the argument that double strength kills kharn, because you are ignoring the fact that wounds are caused by weapons. If you wanted this to work, and ID kharn without his special rule coming into play, you would have to give your opponent and armor save, because you cant be striking with the hammer at that point.

RAW(which is reading the rule and ignoring any other assumptions, intentions or contextual data) kharne does not die.
You can argue RAI until your blue in the face, because this is quite clear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

They also inflict ID by being twice the users toughness. A T2 model being hit by a S4 force sword suffers ID from the sword, whether it is activated or not.

You are supposing that ID prohibition is only from an activated weapon - that has no basis in the rules as written

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

Force weapons do not have a Strength score.

You are incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

Force weapons can also inflict ID by striking with a strength double the opponent's toughness.

So do not ignore the many ways a Force Weapon can inflict ID and you will see that Kharn is immune to all of them.

Force weapons do not have a Strength score.

You are incorrect.

Force weapons do indeed have a strength score. Look at the weapon profile, it has a Strength value. It even tells you how to find out what the value is right beneath it.

Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

Yes, it does. The Str (user) is a strength score. Yes, that score depends on some other variable. But it is still a strength score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, Str x2 is a perfect example. If the User's strength score is 4, then the Force Weapon's strength score is 8.

so, the lesson for today is that a Daemonhammer is not the weapon to kill Kharn, but arguing over a rule that doesn't exist will...

You have two sources of Instant Death inflicted by a Thunder/Daemon Hammer: activated force weapon and strength doubling toughness.

Activating the force weapon doesn't change the fact that you have an instant death source in the form of strength doubling his toughness. It doesn't overrule it. You have multiple sources but not permission to deny one of those sources.

Kharn's rule offsets the instant death source of the force weapon but doesn't offset the instant death source of strength doubling his toughness.

Therefore, Kharn ignores the effect of the force weapon but does not have permission to ignore the strength of the wound and dies due to ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Str is user (or user X2). The weapon has no Str score by itself.

but the user cannot attack without a weapon. The rulebook goes to pain to say that models that do not have any weapons can attack as if they had a single CCW.

In order to do damage you usually need a weapon, shooting or CC. Your strenth does not allow you to ID something, you need to attack(with a weapon) the weapon then uses the users strength to wound and can cause ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

How do force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

But that is exactly the problem ... Force weapons have the ability to grant access to the ID rule. The ID rule that I read on pg 38 says that any wounds inflicted by an attack with this special rule inflict ID regardless of the victims toughness.

Now page 16 tells us that any unsaved wound from an attack that has strength of double the victims toughness is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a caualty.

Page 37 tells us that a FW can be ACTIVATED to grant access to the ID rule via a warp charge.

If it already has access to the ID rule (double toughness) then there is no need to activate it. STR vs TOUGH means it will already have the ID rule.

It is a FW that is inflicting an ID rule on Kharn .... and his rule ignores ID rules from ALL FW regardless of where the ID is coming from ...

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Do not ignore context.

Look at the context of the rule: "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

Therefore an activated force weapon can not inflict ID, but a demonhammer can as long as the force property is not active.

The context does not discuss an activated Force weapon, in order to infer that context, the concept must have been brought up.

The Sentence: "I think I shall go Outside" Does not necessarily infer the context that my house is on fire, but that could very well be the reason behind it.

And as far as your Assertion that the Strength double toughness is not a property of the weapon, Melee weapon Profiles would like to have a word with you(it is no longer that the model is attack with Properties of the weapon and altering his own str, the model now fights with the weapon lending that weapon his strength).

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

so you are saying that a Daemon Hammer cant ID a nob then either.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

So you are saying that if I have a GK squad that has a NFW (Hammer) that I smack a vehicle with that there are no other effects attached to it? That is what pg 37 says, and we all know that that is not correct.

It does not change the fact that ID is attached to the hammer, regardless of the source, and is ignored by Kharn because it is a FW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

so if you were going after a regular marine, and had expended all the force charges for your model, could I claim that your daemonhammer could not ID my marine because it wasn't switched on?

How is the wound not caused by a force weapon? If it just 'doubled the wielder's strength, but didn't come from the weapon' then the AP of the weapon would also always be insignificant in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

How does a force weapon Inflict ID? Page 37, force USR answers this question.

You also missed the entry on Page 16, which also answers this question, because there are two ways in which a force weapon can inflict ID.

Page 37 disagrees with you. It lists the only way that force weapons inflict ID.

In this case, an unactivated Daemonhammer could not ID a nob, or SM Captain, or Kharn for that matter.

The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

Actually it's the strength of the weapon that inflicts ID. There is no unique property of the wound that inflicts ID by itself.

In other words, Instant Death is a special rule, and wounds cannot have Special Rules - only weapons and units can.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

Exactly.

40k-noob wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Scorpiodragon wrote:
Ok so if the DH can't inflict ID, can't you activate it and the nemesis force weapon cause d3 wounds?

Yes. No rule against that part of it, just ID


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he goes bye bye.

Except the rule doesn't say "Activated" just Force weapon.

"In addition, if Karn suffers an unsaved wound from a Force weapon, that weapon cannot inlict Instant Death on him."

No mention of "Activated" in the rule at any point.

So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

And anyone who goes on YMDC and posts should know it is for the discussion of rules EXACTLY how they are written (RAW) not how we would play them, or how we think they are meant to be played (RAI). No one is "abusing" any rules purposely or otherwise, we are discussing rules and the way they are written. Personally I'd never field Kharn anyways so I've got no pony in this race.

Ya str 8 Kills him outright. Period. Theres no wiggle room here. He's not being insta deathed by force but by sheer str.

Its sad but true. Too much can ID characters in this game. Makes for the upgrades that comewith them and their killing prowess almost a moot point IMHO. Better off taling a cheeper hq and playing it safe.

Lungpickle wrote:
Ya str 8 Kills him outright. Period. Theres no wiggle room here. He's not being insta deathed by force but by sheer str.

Its sad but true. Too much can ID characters in this game. Makes for the upgrades that comewith them and their killing prowess almost a moot point IMHO. Better off taling a cheeper hq and playing it safe.

You missed the part where the source of the S8 hit, a force weapon, is not allowed to ID Kharn. It gives no wiggle room, because it doesn't specify the activated force weapon ability.

Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

So you're telling me a wound from a force weapon can ID Kharn?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon...

Show me where it says that and you'll be correct.
Until then...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength will inflict instant death... Kharn's rule only blocks an activated force weapon... So if a wound from a DH gets through he gets splatted.

Also by the same logic Caemons "Blessing of the blood god" would only work against FW activations? Sadly I don't think so.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

false, the models strength stays the same. You cannot use your powerfist to help you against a monoliths portal of exile.

You use the weapon to attack, and those attacks have a strength value(user, user+2, user*2, 4, 6 ect)

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So like if GW had to write every rule explaining everything it would be volumes. Anyone should know that a force weapon can ID when activated it can only ID otherwise if S equal 2T or greater. You are purposedly abusing the rules.

It wouldn't be volumes if they wrote the rules carefully, for example "activating a weapon's Force special rule will not inflict instant death upon Kharn"

It is still a force weapon that is attacking weather it is activated or not, RAW kharn is safe

Weather? Really.

Whether the weather be cold,
Our whether the weather be hot.
We'll weather the weather,
Whatever the weather.
Whether we like it or not.

-anon.

If you allow a double S wound to ID you directly violate the rule. ID is an effect. Force weapons are weapons with the force special rule. You cannot inflict ID with a force weapon as this rule prevents it. Nowhere does it even imply that this only happens from activation, so allowing ANY wound from such a weapon to ID is an illegal move. There's no wriggle room inherent in the wording and this forum only discusses RAW not what we believe RAI to be. If this bothers you, email GW. Simple really.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

That was 5th edition.

In 6th edition the weapon has a strength value that is determined using the model's strength(or is a set value).

Melee Attacks use the Melee weapon, the Melee weapon has a Profile, the profile lists the strength you use(As user, a multiplier of the users strength, a modifier to the users strength, or a set determinate value).

Therefore a NFW Daemon Hammer has 2 methods of causing ID: via activation and the force rule, or Via having a Strength that is double the enemies Toughness(as found in the "Instant death" rule). In both cases it is the Daemon Hammer that is causing the ID result.

Regardless of the activation of the Nemesis Force Wepon. Khan dies due to the dt. Even before the rad granades take effect.

Think of it this way:

You can use the Demon Hammer or a CCW in assault. Now when you attack if you use the CCW you recieve no bonus (unless paired with another CCW). But you still used the weapon. Now if you use the Demon Hammer it automatically doubles your strength (a bonus to using it), therefor you are using a Demon Hammer, so you are also using a FW. The only way to obtain the x2 strength is to actually use the Demon Hammer.

A model attacks Kharn, they make their attacks with one of their available weapons. As you don't have permission to choose to Not use a weapon unless you have more than one, the model would be forced to use the NFH. An unusual force weapon as defined by the GK FAQ, with the added effects of also being a thunder hammer. they hit and wound. Kharn fails.

At this point Blessings kicks in, Regardless of the weapon being "activated" does not change the fact it has the Force special rule and/or is classified as a Force weapon. Up to here nobody can argue.

The Force usr states (paraphrased) if a weapon with this rule inflicts an unsaved wound, the bearer may activate it making a psychic test. If they pass all unsaved wounds have the Instant Death special rule---this is on page 37.

Instant Death (usr) States Unsaved wounds from an attack with this rule automatically inflict instant death, regardless of the victem's toughness.---this is on page 38

Instant Death (effect) tells us "If a model suffers an unsaved wound from an attack that has a strength value of double it's toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty."



Now, the effect of the thunder hammer is the same as activating it as a force weapon. No matter what you do, the weapon will always be a force weapon, activated or not. The ONLY way to generate attacks with a high enough strength to ID him without a force weapon is with an ordos xenos inq with rad grenades AND an ordo Hereticus inq with Thunder hammer. every other melee weapon available to the codex capable of doubling Kharn's strength is also a force weapon.

so, The Force usr may grant the Instant Death usr, which in turn grants all removes the double strength requirements of the Instant Death effect.


No matter how you go about it. There is no way to attack without using the hammer, which satisfies all requirements of blessings of the blood god. The strength 8 unsaved wound can not cause the instant death effect through any means available to it.



Now, all that being said, i think nearly everyone here would agree that was not the Intention of the rule, and I'd personally ever try to use this to stop kharn from getting crushed in a game.

It should be mentioned to the rai crowd that the fluff also supports the raw crowd. Kharn is blessed by khorne and kept from dying. He has been resurrected from death as well. And khorne hates those wussy sorcerer force weapons, along with all psychic powers. Khorne won't let wussy mind weapons kill his champion, hence kharns bonuses versus them. In other codex rules you get a 2++ invulnerable save, as khorne doesn't like his champions to lose to sorcerers, especially in close combat.

In this newest version however kharns blessed with what is essentially eternal warrior versus force weapons. If it is any consolation he can't make Feel no pain versus force weapons with the instant death rule.

This is a typical case where the question cant be answered without being faq'ed in my opinion. We had the exact same dispute come up last week when one of our blood angels players started using GK allies.

We came to the conclusion, that we house rule that kharne dies because of the double strength and not the force weapon wound. Although this may be wrong in some peoples eyes we will play it that way until theres an official faq saying otherwise.

Its not like this is a common situation but rather rare so even if we play that wrong thats not a big problem anyway.

Brotherhood Banners can ID Khârn as well, with Rad grenades and two casts of Hammerhand.

Well not really. Brotherhood banners are all in squads of models with force weapons. I believe the intention is to allow a Daemon Hammer to inflict ID due to double strength but that is most certainly not what the rules state.

Doesn't matter what squad they're in - a banner isn't a force weapon and after 2 HH would be Str6 vs T3.

Didn't the flesh hounds in the deamon codex get an FAQ that said that their collar of Khorn gave a 2++ save against force weapons. Including not activated force weapons.
I would assume the same on a Hammer, it's still a (nemesis) force weapon no matter if you activate the psycic power or not.

For those who claim that "the hammer itself doesnt cause the ID, its the strength of the attack that kills him".
If you attack with your bare fists and not with a force weapon, sure. But it is the hammer itself that dubbles the strength of the attack.

RAW: Kharn is immune to ID from Nemesist force Hammers.
RAI: Kharn die due to the dubble strength.

Poor wording from GW but still very clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:

The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

So if you had a rule "bob cannot suffer instant death from lascannons" then he would still get instant killed because he was hit by a ranged attack that had strength of double his toughness? doesn't really seem like it does it.

rigeld2 wrote:
But the inactivated force weapon didn't cause the ID.
The strength of the attack did.

I haven't read all 4 pages yet, but isn't this just like saying, "But the activated force weapon didn't cause the ID. The 'force' special rule did."

EDIT: Ok, I read em all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Brotherhood Banners can ID Khârn as well, with Rad grenades and two casts of Hammerhand.

for models armed with psycannons, as they dont have force weapons

If they are using their force weapons, the can't ID him.

Another classic battle of RAW vs. RAI. I agree that RAW he cant be ID by the hammer, but I doubt my play group would ever play that way.

I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

yellowfever wrote:
I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

I simply do not agree with this kind of thoughy process here. Sometimes it is easy to see what GW was thinking (vehicles taking invulnerable saves) but this is almost too cut and dry to be a mistake.

Someone mentioned that fluff supports both RAI and RAW. This is true after all, kharn was trampled by a rhino, and lived. So saying that just shows a biased position regarding the subject.

Honestly, you can houserule it all day long. Nobody cares. This is dakkadakka. We care about whether or not we are playing by the rules. How else do you play the game?

Neronoxx wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
I think gw's intent is obvious. If someone tried this crap I would stop playing against them. I'm surprised people are even trying to argue that he would still live. I have karn and wouldn't try it.

I simply do not agree with this kind of thoughy process here. Sometimes it is easy to see what GW was thinking (vehicles taking invulnerable saves) but this is almost too cut and dry to be a mistake.

Someone mentioned that fluff supports both RAI and RAW. This is true after all, kharn was trampled by a rhino, and lived. So saying that just shows a biased position regarding the subject.

Honestly, you can houserule it all day long. Nobody cares. This is dakkadakka. We care about whether or not we are playing by the rules. How else do you play the game?

agreed, I dont own kharn and am not likely to ever use him but I want to know how his rules work so I posed the question.

Obivously there is either poor wording in this rule which has resulted in Kharn being immune to instant death from force weapons inluding double toughness such as daemon hammers and double hammerhand with rad grenades from the other nemisis force weapons OR this is how the rule was intended to be played, and from some of the crap Matt Ward has wrote its not really that far out their. But never the less how about we all email the FAQ submission and find out for real in the next FAQ.

Gamefaqs@gwplc.com < Email FAQ questions here

I just sent this use it if you will or write your own just send one in to clear this up ...

Kharn's 'Blessing of the Blood God" special rules state that "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict Instant Death on him."

Does this mean that if Kharn gets hit with a stength 8 Daemon Hammer, it cannot ID him because of Blessing Of The Blood God, whether it activates or not because it is still a force weapon that inflicts the wound and even though the wound is double his toughness this it is only because of the Daemon Hammer which is in turn a force weapon?

Also because Rad Grenades lower an enemies toughness. If he becomes toughness 3 and then gets hit by a strength 6 Nemisis Halberd, Sword or Stave as a result of a double hammerhand or hammerhand plus might of the titan, these force weapons cannot also inflict instant death on him?

I dont understand comments to the effect of "I wont play anyone who doesnt let my force hammer ID kharn" as if we are trying to bend the rules here to piss you off or power game. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and by ragequiting you are saying that you dont care about the other player's opinion at all. However, ironicly the loophole to be found is in the people saying 'my force weapon gets around your force weapon immunity because it has a higher strength than other force weapons.' You are trying to claim that the rule's immunity to instant death from force weapons is 'worked around' by using a force weapon that is 2x kharn's toughness. That is what reeks of power gaming to me.

As I mentioned before, this not only doesn't make sense in the scope of the rule, but also IN THE FLUFF. Khorne has been granting his followers bonuses against force weapons, activated or not, for several editions and codexes. In these cases, its because Khorne hates psykers, not because khorne is immune to psyker's powers.

If GW wanted, they could have said that force weapons can not activate their psychic power against kharn. Instead, they went the collar of khorne route, where simply using a force weapon in melee is enough to cause Khorne to protect his champions, either with a limited form of eternal warrior or with a 2++ save.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
Obivously there is either poor wording in this rule which has resulted in Kharn being immune to instant death from force weapons inluding double toughness such as daemon hammers and double hammerhand with rad grenades from the other nemisis force weapons OR this is how the rule was intended to be played, and from some of the crap Matt Ward has wrote its not really that far out their. But never the less how about we all email the FAQ submission and find out for real in the next FAQ.

Wow? Biased much?
First, you accuse this rule of being poorly worded (hint, it's really not poorly worded, It's just simple,) you then associate the rule with the "crap Matt Ward" has written.

Kharn's rule is supported on all sides, from RAI, RAW and fluff. Now i don't care about the RAI or the fluff, buy i sure as hell won't ignore them when considering my answer. I simply understand that they have no bearing on the RAW.
That being said, it has been stated multiple times; this is airtight. There is no confusion here, only butt hurt,
and before you or anyone else accuse me of being biased or playing sides, i actually PLAY Grey Knights

Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

And just what are wounds caused by lordhat?
Oh yeah, that's right!
Wounds are caused by weapons!

But then, we have already discussed that in this thread.

Once again, this is pretty clear as far as everything goes. Is there any other LEGITIMATE questions on how exactly this works?

 Lordhat wrote:
Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

Ignore the ridiculousness that such a ruling would create, you are wrong. Under the Instant Death rules, it says "If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double it's Toughness..." (Emphasis Mine). So, we need to know of the strength of the Attack to determine if ID occurs. Where do we find the S value? On the weapon. What type of weapon is it? It's a Force Weapon. Sorry, no ID.

 Lordhat wrote:
Neither weapons nor Models inflict instant death. Wounds do. Kharns Ability denies force weapons the ability to inflict ID, and therefor it does nothing RAW.

Which is hilarious, as you have ignored the rules presented in this thread - basic 6th edition rules (to remove any ambiguity) tells you that weapons inflict wounds, and that the attack is what has strength - caused by a FW

Would this apply to Nemisis Doomfist and such?

Again, same checklist:
Is the wound causing ID?
Is the wound from a Force Weapon?

If the answer to the questions is yes, then Kharn ignores the Instant Death, regardless of where it comes from (I don't know the rules on a Nemesis Doomfist). Even if a force weapon had the Instant Death special rule, and was twice his toughness, it would still not ID him.

It says in the grey knights codex that all Nemisis weapons are force weapons so i assume that would apply the doomfist of dreadnoughts and dreadknights?

Yes, because they are FW

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, because they are FW

well i guess kharne ignores ID from them as well

He does indeed, because in 6th edition it is most certainly the CCW that causes the wound

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

In this case it's not the force weapon itself insta gibbing Kharn due to being activated... It is the S => 2xT that insta gibs him. A power fist would do the same thing as well for example. There are many examples and that's just one of them. Other examples have been cited... Doesn't matter either if the daemon hammer is activated.

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

You can houserule it that way if you'd like. However if it's a wound from a Str 8 FW or NFW in this possible case, it cannot RAW inflict ID against Kharn.

You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

The Wound inflicts ID by virtue of having the attacks Str double the targets Tough.

The Wound Inflicts ID in that case, not the weapon.

And what inflicted the wound?
If you say the weapon did: Then it's a Force Weapon that caused the wound.
If you say it wasn't the weapon: Then the AP of the weapon is disregarded, as are all of it's other rules really.

Including, of course, the x2 strength that would ID Kharn in the first place...

The 2x strength from what kind of weapon again?

I agree it should ID Kharn, but taking the RAW (Rule as written, face value, not adding or taking away from it) a force weapon cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

Wow. Just....wow.
I think its mighty presumptive to call this a rules abuse, seeing as how the only people abusing or making up rules are you people. And no one cares about real world views. They have no hold here. Neither does your understanding of rpg or mini games, because this is literally crystal clear. I honestly do not see the confusion here, and it is maddening to see you people post arguments that achieve literally nothing in relation to progressing this topic.
Not only do you not cite pages, you are not following or understanding the rule. He ignores instant death from force weapons. It does not say that the force weapon must be activated. "Force" weapons are also now their own type of weapon, and these weapons are ALWAYS force weapons. Are you trying to state that Kharns rule doesnt give him immunity to instant death from force weapons? Or are you trying to state that force weapons doubling a toughness don't cause instant death ever? Because either way, RAW says you are wrong.

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Oh cool, so you and you're friends don't want to play by the rules? Cool. I don't like playing with cheaters.

But seriously, you can play the game "wrong" (as in by not following very clear and simple rules) all you want, that doesn't change the rule. I bet a bunch of people play it this way. I'm not the only one, i know bill gates would do the same.
He plays Tau.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

So what are we talking, AP 5 or 4? No saves against melee?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

And then when you can't find anyone to play with I will laugh at you.

 Necrosis wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
You guys can argue that RAW all you want but just realize your not going to have many people to play against if you do. If someone did this, I would pack my models. I'm not the only one, I know lots of people who would do the same.

Right, well I'm sorry Kharn is Immune to ID from FW's not the Force Special rule.
Honestly though it's not that big of a deal, and packing up because of it would probably make me laugh.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neronoxx wrote:

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

Oddly enough it won't stop a Knife either.
Depending on the Vest, large Caliber rounds will rip it to shreds too.
If you have the Kevlar weave, with the kevlar plates it'll stop 1-2 large caliber rounds.
Either way, stab...

And then when you can't find anyone to play with I will laugh at you.

because nobody wants to play with a guy who follows the rules!

Neronoxx wrote:

because nobody wants to play with a guy who follows the rules!

I'll be the first to admit I'll stretch RAW from time to time, when you're in a hurry especially.
Might I add never to benefit myself. However if it will hurry my opponent up (lol)
Seriously though that made me pee myself a little bit.

How dare you follow the rules Banishment

Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Necrosis, if Kharns rule replaced the words 'force weapons' with 'melta weapons' would you let a melta gun ID him? After all, even though Kharns rule says that 'melta weapons' can not instant death him, your 'melta gun' is s8, and still instant deaths Kharn? Would you argue that only a melta weapon with s7 or lower AND the instant death rule would be stopped by Kharn? Because this is not what the rule reads at all!

Do you see the issue? Kharn's rule was written AFTER s10 (on dreads or with hammerhand hammers in the GK book, on BA librarians in the BA book) force weapons existed... and he ignores ID for all force weapons.

EDIT: As an aside to the people that would rage quit a game without 1 ) considering the rule 2 ) considering the fluff 3 ) considering that there is no game balance issue at stake 4 ) consider how your actions make your opponent feel as you disregard their opinion entirely with no discourse and literally make them pack up after going out of their way to play a game with you... I really dont know how you dont get this. Even if the ruling was WRONG the act of rage quitting is completely unacceptable. Act like an adult and 4+ it if you are so offended, or heaven forbid LET IT GO and tell your opponent that you are not a fan of the ruling and want to read up on the rules, fluff, and game balance before the next game.

DevianID wrote:
As an aside to the people that would rage quit a game without 1 ) considering the rule 2 ) considering the fluff 3 ) considering that there is no game balance issue at stake 4 ) consider how your actions make your opponent feel as you disregard their opinion entirely with no discourse and literally make them pack up after going out of their way to play a game with you... I really dont know how you dont get this. Even if the ruling was WRONG the act of rage quitting is completely unacceptable. Act like an adult and 4+ it if you are so offended, or heaven forbid LET IT GO and tell your opponent that you are not a fan of the ruling and want to read up on the rules, fluff, and game balance before the next game.

I struggle to show the same patience as you, but thank you for taking the words out of my very mouth and phrasing them so gentlemanly.

Neronoxx wrote:

 RicBlasko wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The weapon enhances the models Strength.

cannot "inflict ID" on Kharn. That's what the rule says.

I use Kharn, and have for a long time, and even I think this is silly.
He dies, that's it.
Kharn gets to ignore the ID from a FW. He doesnt from something double his Toughness score.
A FW that doubles his Toughness, would ID him twice, and he gets to ignore one of those..still dead.
I look at it from two ways. One is the style of writing. I learned from years of RPGs and Mini games that an American and English games just have a different way of wording things. American games tend to be more clear on what you can and can not do, to stop abuse. UK games tend to take for granted you wont abuse the game, and will think things out.
The other is a more real world view (oh, I know how people hate that for a 40K game) but I can give someone a bullet proff vest. And it will save their life if they get shot with a handgun. Shoot the same person with a tank, and the vest does nothing. Khan has a vest that works on FW, not on the over welming foce of the blow from something Str 8 or 10, that crushes him.

Wow. Just....wow.
I think its mighty presumptive to call this a rules abuse, seeing as how the only people abusing or making up rules are you people. And no one cares about real world views. They have no hold here. Neither does your understanding of rpg or mini games, because this is literally crystal clear. I honestly do not see the confusion here, and it is maddening to see you people post arguments that achieve literally nothing in relation to progressing this topic.
Not only do you not cite pages, you are not following or understanding the rule. He ignores instant death from force weapons. It does not say that the force weapon must be activated. "Force" weapons are also now their own type of weapon, and these weapons are ALWAYS force weapons. Are you trying to state that Kharns rule doesnt give him immunity to instant death from force weapons? Or are you trying to state that force weapons doubling a toughness don't cause instant death ever? Because either way, RAW says you are wrong.

Also, a bulletproof vest doesn't stop headshots. #realworldexamples.

So you assume I was calling this a rule abuse, by stating something about the writting style of RPGs and Mini games over the years? That would be like saying the statement "Radar guns are there to catch people speeding" means "everyone speeds"

As for the hash marks, this is not twitter..and no a bulletproof vest does not stop a bullet. But the question here is not what part of Kharn is stopping the bullet. A bulletproof vest stops a round from a gun.....not if the gun is big enough it might still stop it..but turn the insides into mash potatos. Kharn's rules say Force weapons, it doesnt say he is imune to attacks twice his toughness.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 12:08:56

Post by: nosferatu1001

And, again, you are ignoring the rules which state the weapon causes the wound. He is immune to ID from FW, and does not say "only the activated Force power", so it is immune to all.

Also, please avoid multiquotes through editing them

Reply by: Icelord - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 15:38:51

Post by: Icelord

I think I would love to see an opponent pack up and leave over a rule as irrelevant as this is.

The game follows a set of game rules, its not reality. Your questioning if the rule is realistic? How about gigantic flying warp demons. Thats not realistic either but you still play with them.

The rule states he can't be ID from force weapons. Period. No where does it state activated force weapons. This forum is for the understanding of the rules as written. Rules as intended unfortunately mean nothing. You want to play with it killing him (which btw he is easy to kill with only a 5+ inv. anyways!) than you go for it.

I am a +1 for he is immune to the ID from a NDH regardless of the double tough.

Reply by: Enigwolf - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 16:01:16

Post by: Enigwolf

I can't believe there's actually five pages debating on a ruling like this when it basically comes down to RAW vs. RAI and who is sided on what for what would be advantageous to them, of which four pages are basically rehashes of the original two points of view as stated succinctly by various posters on page one.

I'd go so far as to feel like WAAC is creeping into this for some players.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 17:18:58

Post by: Neronoxx

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't believe there's actually five pages debating on a ruling like this when it basically comes down to RAW vs. RAI and who is sided on what for what would be advantageous to them, of which four pages are basically rehashes of the original two points of view as stated succinctly by various posters on page one.

I'd go so far as to feel like WAAC is creeping into this for some players.

I feel like your a little wrong there.
I am not arguing for myself. I play grey knights.
I am arguing because the rule is simple and everyone and their dog wants to change a rule that has no place being changed. Since when do you change a rule just because you don't like it? Thats called cheating, and i don't like cheaters. That's why i am here.

WAAC IS creeping in here, but it's assuredly not my side...

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 17:42:41

Post by: Dozer Blades

I play Grey Knights and World Eaters... Doesn't really matter though. Kharn dies to insta gib due to the high S which has nothing to do with being a force weapon.

Reply by: Icelord - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 18:04:42

Post by: Icelord

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I play Grey Knights and World Eaters... Doesn't really matter though. Kharn dies to insta gib due to the high S which has nothing to do with being a force weapon.

Wrong. It's the force weapon doubling his stength. Hence ID which he ignores.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 18:42:44

Post by: Dozer Blades

Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 19:58:51

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

Yes. So?

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 20:00:36

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Force weapons when activated just need to wound.

This is true. In other news, the sky is blue, birds fly, and anti-aircraft guns have aircraft in the name.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 20:30:30

Post by: Dozer Blades

Try to stay on topic. Thanks.

Reply by: garby42 - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 20:46:40

Post by: garby42

Well look at it the simple way..He is 100% immune from force weapons ID. Whether the str is double or not it is 100% a force weapon. AKA daemon hammer (force hammer) So it is shennanigans but it is the way it works.

Reply by: Necrosis - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 20:49:41

Post by: Necrosis

Neronoxx wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Nope. Read the first part of your sentence to determine whether a hit cause a telling amount of damage. It is the hit that is being converted to a wound (the other part of your sentence that you didn't bold. Thus the hit is doing the wound not the weapon, the weapon is only used to determine if an attack wounds or not but doesn't do the wound itself. You don't see a thunder hammer wounding people without it being used by some one or something.

Reply by: juraigamer - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 21:01:14

Post by: juraigamer

garby42 wrote:
Well look at it the simple way..He is 100% immune from force weapons ID. Whether the str is double or not it is 100% a force weapon. AKA daemon hammer (force hammer) So it is shennanigans but it is the way it works.

We've been trying to say that for 5 pages, and still people disagree. Some can't read it seems.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 21:33:39

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 Necrosis wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Alright you want to rule lawyer then fine.
The attack not the weapon is inflicting instant death.
Yes your using the weapon to increase your strength but the attack not the weapon is causing instant death, for the rule book does not say attack = weapon. Page 16 says that if an attack [doesn't say weapon] Strength is double the Toughness then the model suffers instant death. If you wish to argue other wise show me a page that says weapon = attack.

You're kidding me? You're not serious are you?
Do you always ignore rules?
Pages 24, 25 and 50. Its right there. Literally.
or even on page 14? "to determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart. The number indicated is the minimum result on a D6 to convert the hit into a wound. A value of '-' indicates the target cannot be wounded by the attack."
This is repeated almost verbatim on page 24-25, and page 50 states "If the weapon has a fixed strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the strength of attacks made with that weapon."
It is called an attack. You use the weapon's strength.
Maybe you should try a little bit of research before you start spewing gak. You have to know the rules in order to rule lawyer.
Now can we consider this closed? I believe that all arguments have been made at this point.

Nope. Read the first part of your sentence to determine whether a hit cause a telling amount of damage. It is the hit that is being converted to a wound (the other part of your sentence that you didn't bold. Thus the hit is doing the wound not the weapon, the weapon is only used to determine if an attack wounds or not but doesn't do the wound itself. You don't see a thunder hammer wounding people without it being used by some one or something.

What cause the wound?
The Force Weapon.

What's Kharn immune to?
ID from Force Weapons

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 21:48:25

Post by: Dozer Blades

Double strength kills. If it wasn't double strength he wouldn't die by your claim.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 21:53:15

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Double strength kills. If it wasn't double strength he wouldn't die by your claim.

What is inflicting the double strength wound? Oh look, that would be the Force Weapon that can't ID Khârn.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:11:39

Post by: Dozer Blades

Yes it can.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:14:30

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Yes it can.

No, it can't, because Kharn has a rule that says "...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:25:29

Post by: Dozer Blades

It's double S that kills him not force.

Reply by: Kevlar - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:43:42

Post by: Kevlar

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:47:41

Post by: rigeld2

Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

That's pretty insulting. In reality, it attracts the "discuss RAW" mentality. You're making the common mistake of assuming that those who discuss RAW also play that way.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 22:52:59

Post by: Dozer Blades

It does indeed.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/24 23:45:48

Post by: nosferatu1001

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

Wrong, the force weapon doubled his strength. Or have you not read the thread showing you where to find the rules which explicitly state it is the CCW that causes the wound? So a Force weapon, which doubled the users strength, caused the ID wound...which Kharn is immune to , as he is immune to ID from FW

You have no argument, just an assertion that you keep making breaking the tenets of this forum. houserule it if you want, doesnt make it the actual rules.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 00:17:10

Post by: Dozer Blades

The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

Reply by: lucasbuffalo - click to view full reply 

31962

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 00:26:42

Post by: lucasbuffalo

I love that wanting kharn to be able to take more than one wound is waac tfg. I'm sorry you have to get past that 3+/5++ more than once. I'm sure it's super hard with his T4. The rule is clear. If you argue the other way you are in fact tfg as you are trying to bend a rule to make it "feel" better to you. Kharn gets at least 3 5++ rolls against force weapons. Sorry.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 00:27:57

Post by: nosferatu1001

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

Reply by: DevianID - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 01:19:13

Post by: DevianID

Kevlar, if you think following the rule and following the fluff is being tfg, then what do you expect us to follow?

Again, if melta replaced force and read "weapons with the melta rule can not inflict instant death on kharn" would you still be arguing that a melta gun can if him?

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 02:01:05

Post by: Dozer Blades

That's not the case though and it's a ridiculous comparison.

Reply by: Savageconvoy - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 02:16:17

Post by: Savageconvoy

Because it proves you wrong? Is that why its a bad comparison?

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 02:17:05

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

His rule doesn't say he has Prot from the Force Rule.

He cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

A daemon hammer is always a force weapon and cannot ID Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

Or the RAW mentality...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not the case though and it's a ridiculous comparison.

Ridiculous is you claiming a Force weapon can ID Kharn. His rule prevents it. His rule doesn't mention the Force special rule.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 02:59:40

Post by: DeathReaper

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

The Context of the rule.

The rule is talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

Force Weapons Inflict ID based on the defined process described on P. 37

The context of the rule tells us that the force weapon must be activated for this to happen.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:01:37

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the daemonhammer states it is the equivalent to a thunderhammer... Concussive plus double S.

So, still not found any rules that state the wound isnt coming from a force weapon?

Still waiting.

(to make it clear - nothing in the quote shows this, it just tells you how to find the additional stats for this particular force weapon.)

The Context of the rule.

The rule is talking about a Force weapon inflicting ID.

Force Weapons Inflict ID based on the defined process described on P. 37

The context of the rule tells us that the force weapon must be activated for this to happen.

Not this time. In context it states may not be ID'd from wounds from "force weapons".
It does not even hint nor specify it only means Protection from the "force" rule.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:06:16

Post by: DeathReaper

And how does a Force weapon Inflict ID?

It follows the process on P.37

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:10:37

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 DeathReaper wrote:
And how does a Force weapon Inflict ID?

It follows the process on P.37

It can inflict ID in various ways.
One of which being double the (T)
Fairly common with having Rad G'nades in the codex.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:17:28

Post by: DeathReaper

If you ignore the context, then that is true.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:33:40

Post by: Dozer Blades

He is ignoring the context.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:43:55

Post by: Neronoxx

Kevlar wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's double S that kills him not force.

I think most people would play it that way. But for some reason this place attracts TFG mentality.

TFG guy mentality? We're following a rule, so keep your biased judgements out of this, please and thank you.

And hits cause wounds? Don't attacks cause hits? Lol....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
He is ignoring the context.

What context? Kharns rule has no context related to activated force weapons. It has context related to force weapons and instant death. There is no debating this...

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 03:49:47

Post by: Dozer Blades

It's being debated which is part of why we have this particular forum. I kind of doubt it will be FAQd so better to flesh it out here in my opinion.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 04:10:57

Post by: A GumyBear

the force weapon is still being used to boost strength to 6-8+ so the weapon cant id kharn because the weapon which is a force weapon is being used to increase the strength in order to cause the id

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 04:11:30

Post by: Neronoxx

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's being debated which is part of why we have this particular forum. I kind of doubt it will be FAQd so better to flesh it out here in my opinion.

No i literally meant how can you debate this? The avatar of khaine has a similar rule, making him immune to melta weapons. Why arent any of you debating that rule? Because its solid. Airtight..
So is this one.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 04:15:44

Post by: A GumyBear

the force weapon is actually being used to inflict the wound otherwise the wielder wouldnt get the strength bonus from the weapon in order to inflict id anyway

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 04:15:46

Post by: OIIIIIIO

I invite you to peruse pg. 16 ... on this page you will see that it has a fairly apt description of ID and how it works ( double toughness ) and force abiity on pg 37 references ID on pg 38 which in turn tells you to revisit pg. 16.

The NFW (Deamon hammer) ALREADY has the ID special rule (Double toughness) attached to it. There is no need to activate it, which BTW contextually speaking, is not required in Kharn's special rule.

I defy you to show me where it says that the weapon must be activated in any way shape or form in Kharn's rule .... little hint here ... there is NO such wording.

Did the ID come from a NFW?????? YES, YES it DID. Is it ignored because it is a Force weapon? YES, Yes it is.

This is RAW ... RAI ... as I have said before, I think that it should kill him outright. Khorne seriously dislikes Psykers though so this may stand as such after (if it happens) an FAQ.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

67502

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 04:18:36

Post by: A GumyBear

i dont see how somebody could be confused by this rule a force weapon simply cannot id him in anyway whther from strength bonus or force power activation

Reply by: Fragile - click to view full reply 

61964

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 05:49:29

Post by: Fragile

Its a clear case of ambiguous wording. By RAW, Kharn is protected from the double Str wounds causing ID if the enemy is using a Force weapon.

I am pretty sure that RAI was to protect him from ID from the Force weapon being activated and that is HIWPI

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 05:51:23

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

Fragile wrote:
Its a clear case of ambiguous wording. By RAW, Kharn is protected from the double Str wounds causing ID if the enemy is using a Force weapon.

I am pretty sure that RAI was to protect him from ID from the Force weapon being activated and that is HIWPI

Eh not sure which way I'd play it tbh. I'd prolly go with the RAW, just for the fact my opponent would be playing Kharn which I always approve of.

Reply by: Fragile - click to view full reply 

61964

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 06:00:54

Post by: Fragile

To my Nids, hes just food. And nothing there saves him from the Smash.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 06:03:47

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

Fragile wrote:
To my Nids, hes just food. And nothing there saves him from the Smash.

Nor a missile launcher.

Other than his invul

Reply by: jeffersonian000 - click to view full reply 

11373

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 06:05:24

Post by: jeffersonian000

I'm in the camp that Kharn's immunity to being ID by force weapons does mean a Daemon Hammer cannot ID him. It is a force weapon, after all, and there is no mention in his special rule where the ID has to come from other than from force weapons in general. It's pretty clear Kharn finds Daemon Hammers to be lesser than their Thunder Hammer cousins.

SJ

Reply by: DevianID - click to view full reply 

9288

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 06:16:07

Post by: DevianID

Rai also follows that force weapons of any variety can not instant death him. Khorne HATES psykers, and provides protection in melee from sorcery weapons. Daemons already have eternal warrior so get a 2+ save, kharn instead gets eternal warrior versus force weapons.

In both cases the force weapon does not need to be activated to receive khornes blessing.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

67502

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 06:25:50

Post by: A GumyBear

you are using the force weapon to deal id with it's strength regardless of whether you choose to use its ability

think of it this way if the rule were to be replaced with meltaguns instead of force weapons would you argue it?
no because you can understand that because a s8 can id t4 it trigger his rule
now go back to force weapons is more than one way to id something that hard for you guys to comprehend?
does it hurt your brains to try and think of 2 ways to id at once?
i honestly dont see anywhere in the rule that you could be confused, he is immune to id from force weapons not from the force activation of force weapons just immune to all types of id from a force weapon and that includes if you choose to use its strength because you are still using the strength of the weapon to deal the id and because it is a force weapon you trigger the rule
a weapon is still a force weapon regardless of whether you choose to activate its force ability
its like saying a chainfist is a powerfist until you shoose to use its armorbane or a meltagun isn't a meltagun its just an op bolter until you decide to use its melta rule or a librarian isn't a psyker he is just some random 2 wound marine unless he is using a psychic power

Reply by: Happyjew - click to view full reply 

46128

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 07:43:59

Post by: Happyjew

On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 07:44:54

Post by: Unit1126PLL

Hm, I will have to check my codex, but if that is word-for-word what it says, then yes he would be immune unless the DH was wielded by a Str. 3 Model (Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator Armor)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For all you people out there, the rule that Happyjew refers to is:
"The character [equipped with the Adamantine Mantle] does not suffer Instant Death when wounded by a weapon whose Strength is at least twice the character's toughness, instead taking a single wound."

It seems that RAI is clearly different from RAW, but RAW he would be protected from activated daemonhammers.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 08:06:45

Post by: Dozer Blades

The rules for the mantle are really old.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 08:14:17

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the mantle are really old.

Yes. Yes they are.

Reply by: Happyjew - click to view full reply 

46128

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 08:19:25

Post by: Happyjew

The rules for Kharn are really new.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 08:21:39

Post by: Unit1126PLL

Happyjew wrote:The rules for Kharn are really new.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Yes. Yes they are.

Reply by: schadenfreude - click to view full reply 

23433

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 10:17:53

Post by: schadenfreude

RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 11:53:00

Post by: Neronoxx

 schadenfreude wrote:
RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

This post gave me cancer.

But yeah, i think we all understand how this works now. Could it be reversed in a faq?
Certainly.
Until then?
Kharne triumphs over all mind-metal.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 11:59:36

Post by: nosferatu1001

DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

Reply by: schadenfreude - click to view full reply 

23433

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 12:41:22

Post by: schadenfreude

Neronoxx wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

This post gave me cancer.

But yeah, i think we all understand how this works now. Could it be reversed in a faq?
Certainly.
Until then?
Kharne triumphs over all mind-metal.

The FDA classifies pure uncut RAW as a carcinogen, it should only be handled per OSHA guidelines.

Yes an errata or FAQ can change it. If GW does get around to it in their next FAQ I would expect it to go along your RAI, until then obey all OSHA guidlines.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:01:20

Post by: Dozer Blades

Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:29:47

Post by: Neronoxx

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

All of the butthurt!!!
Its funny and ironic that you would say that, as one of the people misconceiving it.
Try this.
"Joe billy is immune to ID from all specialist weapons."
Can a power fist ID him?

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:39:12

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

Are there any rules to back you up?

Or just improper context?

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:40:44

Post by: DeathReaper

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:42:30

Post by: Dozer Blades

- Removed by insaniak -

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:44:51

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

Context of the rule. Kharn cannot be ID'd by a FW. Regardless of how it would inflict ID.

As I don't play CSM/IF I did I wouldn't play Kharn agreed to that last bit.

Reply by: Happyjew - click to view full reply 

46128

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 16:46:54

Post by: Happyjew

Ok. I think it is time for everyone to step back, calm down, enjoy some Christmas beer, uh, cheer, and stop insulting each other.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

67502

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 17:08:22

Post by: A GumyBear

Edited by AgeOfEgos

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 17:10:30

Post by: DeathReaper

7 pages of good discussion without anyone calling anyone names, or breaking any of the tenets of the forum.

And then there is this.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Edited by AgeOfEgos

Or we could discuss it like men (aka grown ups) and not take shots at the other posters by calling them names...

P.S. my IQ is 145 and I have read these rules many times over, so I am neither "ignorant" or "stupid"

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 18:08:35

Post by: Dozer Blades

Words like butthurt are completely unnecessary. Now stop fanning the flame.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 19:40:47

Post by: nosferatu1001

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 19:44:47

Post by: Neronoxx

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Words like butthurt are completely unnecessary. Now stop fanning the flame.

Then maybe accept that this is a perfectly legal ruling with no abuse at all?

Afterall, you've made your case, and were wrong. Being unable to cite any legitamamte defense from the brb and relying on what you would guess to be context (which by the way is being presumptuous as you did not write the book) has proven you wrong, while the opposite side has a clearcut legal defense. Yet people still insist on hashing this out and refusing to read the previous 6 pages where this can all be seen as clear as day.
I'm not fanning any flames here. I'm trying to make a point.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 19:55:01

Post by: Dozer Blades

Oh so you work for GW as a developer and your word is gold? I don't think so.

Reply by: Happyjew - click to view full reply 

46128

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:00:31

Post by: Happyjew

And this is why you do not argue HYWPI against RAW.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:01:45

Post by: Neronoxx

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh so you work for GW as a developer and your word is gold? I don't think so.

i didn't say that, now did i Dozer Blades?
No, all i said was you are relying on a context that you cannot prove is there, and that there is substantial evidence that Kharn cannot be ID'd by any force weapon.
However if you would like to keep posting intelligence-killing posts, be my guest as i have no calms with your behavior. In fact i'm laughing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
And this is why you do not argue HYWPI against RAW.

I don't argue HYWPI. what's the point? Everyone would play it differently.
I only argue RAW. That's the same no matter what (usually.)

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:15:27

Post by: DeathReaper

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

So the only thing Kharn's rule can be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:20:23

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule can be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

Reply by: kaisshau - click to view full reply 

54385

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:21:18

Post by: kaisshau

Deathreaper and Dozer Blades:
Context is RAI. That's not the issue. RAW says Kharn is immune to ID from a Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with the Instant Death special rule and strength twice his toughness, would not ID him. Was the intention? Maybe, maybe not. But that is what context matters for. Context does not matter for RAW.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:25:42

Post by: rigeld2

Actually, no - context matters for RAW, but there's no context in this case that matters.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 20:43:54

Post by: Neronoxx

kaisshau wrote:
Deathreaper and Dozer Blades:
Context is RAI. That's not the issue. RAW says Kharn is immune to ID from a Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with the Instant Death special rule and strength twice his toughness, would not ID him. Was the intention? Maybe, maybe not. But that is what context matters for. Context does not matter for RAW.

And it's really that simple!

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:08:58

Post by: Dozer Blades

If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

Reply by: lucasbuffalo - click to view full reply 

31962

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:10:33

Post by: lucasbuffalo

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

Good! You finally understand how the rule works!

Reply by: insaniak - click to view full reply 

99

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:12:46

Post by: insaniak

kaisshau wrote:
Context does not matter for RAW.

Context most definitely matters for RAW, because context can affect the meaning of a given piece of text.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:19:05

Post by: rigeld2

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If an Imperial Fist hit him with a power fist he would die outright. But oh if it's a Paladin then no. No way.

Wait, what?

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:36:48

Post by: DeathReaper

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

But it is never going to affect any games I play, so house rule it however you want.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:43:28

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All Force weapons can cause ID without activating Force. That's a fact.

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

That's not what you're asserting. According to you, not all Force weapons have the potential to ID based on S>=2xT. That's demonstrably false.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

If it said the Force special rule, you'd be correct. It doesn't. You're not.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:43:47

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule could possibly be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

It is true, as all force weapons ID based on the P. 37 rules. Not all force weapons have S>=2T, as there are T=6+ creatures out there and the max S=10

All force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37, the same it not true for S>=2T, as all force weapons are not S>=2T of every model.

The context of Kharn's rule is talking about the Force USR on P.37

But it is never going to affect any games I play, so house rule it however you want.

I refuse to houserule things where RAW is clear-cut, so Kharn will never be IDed by my force weapons. Just like his rule says.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 21:50:46

Post by: DeathReaper

rigeld2 wrote:
All Force weapons can cause ID without activating Force. That's a fact.

But All Force weapons do not always cause ID without activating Force.
your statement is an irrelevant statement.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not what you're asserting. According to you, not all Force weapons have the potential to ID based on S>=2xT. That's demonstrably false.

That is not what I am saying at all, I am saying that all force weapons are not always S>=2T again that is irrelevant because the rule says
"...if Kharn suffers an unsaved wound from a force weapon, that weapon cannot inflict ID on him."

How do force weapons inflict ID? they can through S>=2T, but they always do through the Force USR (When activated), as all force weapons are not always S>=2T.

rigeld2 wrote:
If it said the Force special rule, you'd be correct. It doesn't. You're not.

It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 22:36:51

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/25 22:39:38

Post by: nosferatu1001

Yes, and no other way for you to continually be wrong.

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons. SOME force weapons can ID him through Strength, and SOME can ID him if they are activated. There is NO REQUIREMENT, anywhere in his rule, that the FW has to *always* be capable of IDing Kharne - just that, if it would do, it does not

The rule is 100% absolutely clear cut: the weapon causes a wound that causes ID? No ID if that weapon is a FW

There is no other way to state it - you are literally ignoring the written rule in favour of a context that does not exist, at all.

Reply by: Mywik - click to view full reply 

51854

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 02:00:47

Post by: Mywik

Im sure this will be FAQed. The RAW are clear. No arguing about that. Houseruling is not important here. If you house rule it (like we did) thats fine but not in the closest relevant to this discussion.

We assume that he is meant to die. Thats why we play it that way in our club. If i would play somewhere else i would accept their houseruling in this case. Knowing this particular rules dabate is enough to talk about this before a game GK vs CSM and decide how to play in advance. Not that hard to do.

As i said im quite sure this will be faq'ed. As a gk player i fear the RAW are what GW was intending tbh.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 02:29:42

Post by: DeathReaper

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

Reply by: DevianID - click to view full reply 

9288

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 02:54:21

Post by: DevianID

Yet while you argue that a possible context exists that kharns rule only applies to force activation, we have shown there is greater context that force weapon activation doesn't matter.
You continually ignore the fluff on the matter, as well as the history of rules in chaos space marine books as well as daemon books.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 03:12:39

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

I don't see the context in the least. It talks about any wound from a FW not being able to ID Kharn.
So the context is simply (Kharn cannot be ID'd by a FW regardless of the reason of ID)

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

67502

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 05:56:45

Post by: A GumyBear

you people are making up text that somehow restates the rule to say he cannot be id from from the force special rule

Nowhere does it say that he cannot be id from the force special rule in specific it simply mentions all force weapons whether it be from the force weapons force activation or from its double T

are you using the weapon to deal the wound?
yes
did the weapon cause id in any way?
yes
is the weapon a force weapon?
yes
was the weapon responsible/the reason for the id as in if it weren't for the force weapon it wouldn't id?
yes
is kharn immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
is he immune to id from a force weapon?
yes
does the rule state how the force weapon has to deal id?
no
so are all of your arguments against this rule invalid?
yes
are most of these arguments just making up text or assuming a rai pov?
yes

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 08:01:35

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

No. There is no context to ignore. All it says is that Khârn is immune to ID from Force Weapons. That's all. Which, funnily enough, means Khârn can't suffer ID from a Force Weapon. Ever.

Reply by: A GumyBear - click to view full reply 

67502

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 08:06:11

Post by: A GumyBear

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

force weapons can also id things by being twice the t of a model for example a libby with a force sword swings at some grots
the grots would be id from the fact that the libby is using a s4 weapon against a t2 model

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/26 09:42:45

Post by: nosferatu1001

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It says force weapons can not ID him. force weapons ID based on the Force USR, so in context, Kharn's rule is talking about the force USR.

If you do not ignore the context then you come to the same conclusion I have.

I agree that RAW is clear-cut, so you are going to have to house rule it to make him immune to non-activated force weapons.

There is literally no other way for me to state this.

So if a Force Weapon IDs something by merit of being S=2xT, it doesn't inflict Instant Death, it just magically forces the victim to die?

That is not what Kharn's rule is talking about.

By the context of the rule it is talking about the Force USR on P.37

The context is: he cannot be ID'd by force weapons.

Force weapons ID things by virtue of the rules on P.37

The context exists yet you refuse to see it, so I am going to take my leave.

They ALSO ID things by conferring a strength to the attack that can be high eniugh to cause ID. That is the "weapon" part of Force Weapon doing that.

You are making up a context that simply isnt there.

Reply by: Lungpickle - click to view full reply 

60145

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 19:12:13

Post by: Lungpickle

LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

Reply by: xole - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 19:31:39

Post by: xole

Lungpickle wrote:
They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

This was extremely painful for me to read, but I think this is the meat of your argument.

It is quite wrong.

While silly, Kharn's rule encompasses force weapons regardless of their other qualities.

Would you argue that khorn daemons with Blessings of the Blood God would not get their 2+ invulnerable save from force weapons because they are not activated? I should hope not, because a force weapon is intrinsically a force weapon. It is unable to choose not to be a force weapon, and if that is ever a down side, you'll just have to deal with it.

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 19:35:15

Post by: OIIIIIIO

Lungpickle wrote:
LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

This is where you and Death are wrong .... the rule says that if a FW (any type btw) causes an unsaved wound on Kharn it can not ID him ....Death keeps bringing up pg 37 ... I invited him to READ pg. 37 of the BRB and it references pg 38 ... which in turn references pg 16 dealing with instant death. A FW CAN use a warp charge to cause ID if the model has an unsaved wound from a FW. However, if ID is already attached to the weapon (double toughness as per pg 37, 38, and 16) then there is no need to activate the FW.

Kharn's rule IGNORES all ID from FW. There is no 'context' stating that it must be 'activated' ..... HE JUST IGNORES THEM. Period.

Reply by: Icelord - click to view full reply 

20792

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 19:36:49

Post by: Icelord

Lungpickle wrote:
They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

Thats the probelm. It doesnt say is specifically only covers one. It pretty clear cut. Kharne does NOT suffer instant death by wounds caused from force weapons. This means ANY WOUNDS. Nowhere does it state activated force weapons. Is the hammer casuing the wond? Yes, can it ID him 2 different ways? Yes, So he ignores BOTH as that weapon can not inflict a wound that cause ID to him.

I dont see any more arguments about this. He can not be killed by it. RAW RAW RAW. If you want to interpret it the other way go ahead but your incorrect.

Reply by: juraigamer - click to view full reply 

25703

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 19:37:17

Post by: juraigamer

 Happyjew wrote:
On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Well adamantine mantle simply states you are immune to instant death from str x2 toughness. While a daemon hammer couldn't kill you, the force activation could, since activating the force weapon makes the wounds instant death, not double toughness or what have you.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 23:10:03

Post by: nosferatu1001

Lungpickle - then prove that it only covers the Force rule. Some actual rules.

The rest of your post is meaningless as you have asserted an opinion and failed to actually back it up.

It covers ID caused by a FW -and a FW can cause ID in two ways. Stating it only negates one way, without providng a single rule, is useless.

Reply by: Khalbrae - click to view full reply 

65332

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/27 23:49:12

Post by: Khalbrae

soots wrote:
why cant he be ID? if hes T4 or T3 with rad grenades, and is hit by a Daemonhammer at str 8 or 10 with hammerhand, and he fails his inv, hes dead.

This is how Kharn dies to my crudbum guardian defenders with their single missile launcher per squad.

Reply by: ALEXisAWESOME - click to view full reply 

67872

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 00:16:29

Post by: ALEXisAWESOME

Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 00:21:33

Post by: rigeld2

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

WAT.

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 00:44:56

Post by: OIIIIIIO

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Ok, lets go with your whole he carnt be ID but your not using the context. *which isnt even right in itself* Lets here see you say/type that Kharn carnt be ID by ANY force weapon because of the blessed of the blood god rule.

Or you can say all that and say, but i wont follow that because i believe it might be referencing something it might not even be referencing, lets use this as the catalyst so i can be TFG and bend the rules so my overpowered 2 wound termie can instant kill your hq while striking at I order. Yeah, dont sound right does it?

And the English language died just a litttle because of this. I ... I mean .... I .... not sure .... does not compute ... What is this?

Reply by: ALEXisAWESOME - click to view full reply 

67872

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 01:17:44

Post by: ALEXisAWESOME

OK, not the feed back i was hoping for on my first post, lets try again.

You carn't just ignore rules that are clearly stated because its not how you think they arn't intended to do something. Nor is it appropriate for you to rage quit when you dont get your way, or call your opponent a power gamers or rule abuser.

It clearly stats he is immune to ID caused by force weapons.

The NDH is a force weapon and if you choose to use it for the effects (x2 strength, force, concussive, AP) then Kharn is immune to ANY instant death coursed by it. Alternitivily you can granade him down to T3, doublehammer and throw your swords away ( do you HAVE to use your weapon?) and beat him to a pulp anyway, but he will get an armour save.

If its my spelling/grammer....C'mon guys, your better then that....i hope.

But we ccan all agree....We need an FAQ.

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 01:19:05

Post by: Dozer Blades

I agree with lungpickle - and I hope GW will address this. The good news is Kharn will never lose a challenge to a daemonhammer.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 04:45:34

Post by: Neronoxx

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with lungpickle - and I hope GW will address this. The good news is Kharn will never lose a challenge to a daemonhammer.

Lungpickle? That guy who was caught saying that force weapons aren't always Force weapons? The guy who hasn't come back to post again, because he probably read the actual rule, though "Holy Gak, his rule is a blanket rule and applies to any force weapon?"
I mean, at this point Dozer Blade, nothing YOU SAY can be trusted, as you have shown a general inability to read,quote, or comprehend even the most basic of 40k rules. I have to ask; do you even play the game?
I showed this thread to my girlfriend, who actually plays the game, then gave her a rulebook and asked her to find the answer (all without telling her i was on either side.) I then repeated this process with my local game store, several tournament players, a 15 year veteran, and a beginner. Would you like to know what they all said? A total pool of thirty people?
A unanimous vote "No, Kharn cannot be ID'd by any force weapon, RAW."
Now, this may not mean much to you, as you seem unable to comprehend things like rules, but 30 out of 30 people think you're wrong.
Would you say that they are all wrong? Would you discredit yourself further?

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

25208

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 15:14:45

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 juraigamer wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Well adamantine mantle simply states you are immune to instant death from str x2 toughness. While a daemon hammer couldn't kill you, the force activation could, since activating the force weapon makes the wounds instant death, not double toughness or what have you.

"[...]The character does not suffer Instant Death when wounded by a weapon whose Strength is at least twice the character's Toughness, taking instead a single wound." In other words, if the weapon's strength is equal to or greater than twice your toughness, you do not suffer Instant Death from wounds caused by it. Which would include Daemonhammers as long as they strike at twice your T.

Reply by: madtankbloke - click to view full reply 

60035

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 16:05:26

Post by: madtankbloke

RAW, kharn takes a single wound from any unsaved wound caused by a force weapon,

RAI, and HIWPI he gets his head caved in by the big hammer that just put his head where his chest should be

Reply by: DevianID - click to view full reply 

9288

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 17:00:42

Post by: DevianID

Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Reply by: madtankbloke - click to view full reply 

60035

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 18:13:19

Post by: madtankbloke

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

Reply by: Lord Krungharr - click to view full reply 

65714

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 18:21:18

Post by: Lord Krungharr

I would also rule, because of RAI, that Kharn vs a Force Hammer would die only because of the Strength being twice his Toughness, not because of psychic injections of Force Weapons. However, he should be 200 points AND Eternal Warrior or something like Commissar Yarrick, where he stands back up with 1 wound on a 3 or 4+. His origin story says he came back from the dead dammit ! My Juggernaught Axe Lord for 10 points more than Kharn can kill him every time because of the number of attacks and Kharns feeble Aura of Dark Glory (as opposed to the sigil).

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 18:47:55

Post by: Dozer Blades

He only gets back up if a rhino drives over him.

Reply by: warpspider89 - click to view full reply 

63122

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 21:58:18

Post by: warpspider89

madtankbloke wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

I disagree with your RAI interpretation on these grounds:

1) He is the champion of khorne & is blessed by khorne
2) Khorne is basically the god of combat and, consequently, abhors psychers (the pansies!)
3) Force weapons are psychic instruments wielded by psychers.

For Khorne to protect his follower from the psychers and their psychic instruments to the highest degree possible, so that he may mash face as a good champion of the blood god should, seems rather fitting

Reply by: juraigamer - click to view full reply 

25703

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 22:17:10

Post by: juraigamer

RAW he doesn't suffer instant death from force weapons.

RAI I'm not sure, I'm not matt ward.

They can FAQ it to only be "activated" force weapons to solve the issue, but until then, kharn lives if he takes a hit from a demon hammer.

Of course, I'm wondering how he made it through the halberds in the first place...

Reply by: Dozer Blades - click to view full reply 

59251

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 22:47:30

Post by: Dozer Blades

warpspider89 wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:

DevianID wrote:
Madtankbloke, how would you play the rule from the fluff side of things? While I would not be surprised if gw intended kharn to be immune to the force power only, so many other rules are straight up antipsyker or apply to a wide selection of weapons like the plasma siphon.

Force weapons allow a psyker to channel his mentsl powers through his weapon, and turn 'whatever' into a mindless shell, Kharn is so single minded in his desire to kill things that even if you could reduce him to a mindless shell, it would probably just annoy him, he would STILL try to rip your head off. now, his immunity to that particular type of attack doesn't change the fact that you just smashed his head open with a massive hammer.

So, my take on it is, he is immune to the ID from the force aspect of the weapon, but not immune to the fact that you just pounded his head into paste with what is in effect, a thunder hammer. but since the rule is quite explicit in the fact that he is immune to ID caused by force weapons, and it doesn't differentiate 'how' that ID might occur, RAW he doesn't get clobbered by the 2x Toughness ID rule, because its a forceweapon inflicting the instant death. and in any case, his rule is very specific in the wording, it covers all ID wounds caused by force weapons, regardless of the actual cause.

Its also worth noting, that the force weapons listed in the BRB are sword, axe and stave, and none of them, unless the user casts iron arm or something, have the ability to ID kharn through Strength alone.

So again, RAW he would laugh at you
RAI and HIWPI, he gets to smile at you through his belly button because thats where you just put his head

I disagree with your RAI interpretation on these grounds:

1) He is the champion of khorne & is blessed by khorne
2) Khorne is basically the god of combat and, consequently, abhors psychers (the pansies!)
3) Force weapons are psychic instruments wielded by psychers.

For Khorne to protect his follower from the psychers and their psychic instruments to the highest degree possible, so that he may mash face as a good champion of the blood god should, seems rather fitting

I disagree with you as any other S8+ wound would inflict instant death.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/28 22:51:22

Post by: nosferatu1001

Your disagreement is strictly HIWPI and not actually based in any written rules

Please mark your posts as such, so we know when to actually debate them, as it is pointless debating a houserule

Reply by: Jirin - click to view full reply 

47857

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/29 13:33:37

Post by: Jirin

I myself asked numerous people last night.

RAW Kharn takes a single wound.

HIWPI is he would die outright.

When we go to a tournament we'll ask a TO on his opinion and play it that way.

The consensus was pretty clear.

Reply by: HumeyKillar - click to view full reply 

50099

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 11:34:58

Post by: HumeyKillar

the way I see it:

kharn get str8 wound, wich is double his T4 so he goes ID

the deamonhammerwielder won't even get the chance to turn his FW on, as kharn is dead already.

go step by step like me and you'll see that it is the str8 that kills him, wether there's a force switch or not on that weapon.

and if I get in discussion about a rule, I roll a die. on a 1/2/3 its my interpretation, on a 4+ his. simple.

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 12:22:10

Post by: OIIIIIIO

Please read the preceding 8 pages and find out why you are wrong.

I will give you a hint .... 'activated' is not in Kharn's rule anywhere ... he is just immune to ID from FW in any way shape or form.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 13:48:26

Post by: nosferatu1001

Humey - your take is a houserule, not based in actual rules. RAW he ignores ID from ANY FW, no matter how caused

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:00:47

Post by: DeathReaper

His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:04:27

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:
His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

There's no context that supports that. It's not a magic word - you need actual rules to support that. You haven't established that.

Reply by: lucasbuffalo - click to view full reply 

31962

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:05:19

Post by: lucasbuffalo

 DeathReaper wrote:
His take is not a houserule, he is simply not ignoring the context of Kharn's rule.

If by "not ignoring" you mean "pretending to know the author's intent and ignoring the written rule because of this" then ok.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:25:46

Post by: DeathReaper

I have established rules support.

Please do not ignore my rules support this time.

In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

How do all force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

That is how all force weapons inflict ID.

So do not ignore the context of the rules and you will see that a force weapon inflicting ID has nothing to do with Str Vs. Tough

That is not "author's intent", that is RAW.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:27:10

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:30:27

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have established rules support.
Please do not ignore my rules support this time.

I haven't.

How do all force weapons inflict ID?

By the psyker expending a warp charge and casting the psychic power by passing a psychic test (37).

They all also have the potential to cause ID by doubling toughness. Just like they have the potential to ID based on the results is a psychic test.

That is how all force weapons inflict ID.

That is one way force weapons inflict ID. You're ignoring the other way.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:35:10

Post by: DeathReaper

potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:37:47

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Exactly as all Force weapons cause ID based on double toughness. There's no difference except the "activation" of the ID.
Your blind ignorance of that fact is why you're wrong on this count.

Reply by: DeathReaper - click to view full reply 

31450

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:42:17

Post by: DeathReaper

All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

Reply by: rigeld2 - click to view full reply 

47462

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:47:56

Post by: rigeld2

 DeathReaper wrote:
All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

So all Force weapons always cause ID? Or is there some requirement to be met before they cause ID?

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 17:50:30

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 18:48:52

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

I've read and reread the section. The only context I see is that any ID from a FW cannot kill Kharn. A Force weapon can ID in multiple ways. Nothing makes you activate the weapon, so a DH will already ID things of T4 or less.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 19:07:09

Post by: Neronoxx

 DeathReaper wrote:
All force weapons are not Double toughness, so they all do not cause ID based on that.

Potentially they can, but not all force weapons cause ID that way.

so they can not be talking about str double tough, as some force weapons can never cause ID on double tough because no force weapon can ID a wraithlord unless it activates the force property.

Oh, so authors dont write rules unless those rules are guaranteed to take place? Not only is this a ridiculous claim, it is horribly, horribly wrong.
Weapons always have the potential to inflict instant death through Strength doubling toughness. A las gun culd inflict instant death on a toughness 1 opponent.
Force weapons are weapons. Yes? So they always have the potential to cause instant death through strength doubling toughness.
They also have the potential to cause instant death through activating their "Force" special rule. But they do not always activate. Running out of force charges, and failing leadership tests are two examples.
So to say that the author is contextually excluding one of these possibilities is both ludicrous and blatant proof that you are just making gak up now.
Please address this deathreaper, for the above to be untrue is simply not possible.
And how can YOU know what the authors intended? Are you one of them? Even if you aren't, using the authors intent as a defense makes your argument stray over to RAI, not RAW.
Its one thing to defend your believe, but its another thing entirely to discredit yourself over something when you're clearly wrong.

Reply by: FKaos - click to view full reply 

67244

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 21:41:55

Post by: FKaos

I would note that the blessing of the blood god from the chaos daemons codex gives a 2++ inv save vs force weapons and clearly means non activated force weapons (since they can't be activated until after they cause an unsaved wound). Based on this precident with almost the same wording I would play it that he only takes the 1 wound.

Reply by: Lobokai - click to view full reply 

44276

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 21:57:45

Post by: Lobokai

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
potential means little, all force weapons cause ID by the rules on P. 37

Force weapons causing ID, in context, means they are following the rules on P.37.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context they are talking about an activated force weapon.

[citation needed]

Kharn's entry in the chaos codex.

Force weapons also cause ID by the ID rule on page 16.

I see nowhere in Kharn's entry the term "Force special rule" or "activated" or "psychic test" or really anything that implies that the force weapon must be activated for Kharn to be immune to it.

I've read and reread the section. The only context I see is that any ID from a FW cannot kill Kharn. A Force weapon can ID in multiple ways. Nothing makes you activate the weapon, so a DH will already ID things of T4 or less.

I agree. I don't fault DeathReaper's logic, and if I was playing someone in a tourney and I had Kharn and they had Force Weapon Hammers (or vice versa, but I don't play GK) I'd be willing to go either way on this one. But strictly RAW, Kharn is broken but not bowed by the NFW DH.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/30 23:26:04

Post by: nosferatu1001

DR - there is no context outside of "FW". There is no mention of the Force rule, just Force Weapons.

ALL FW can cause ID through activating the Force rule OR through double strength. That is the context. You have no rules support otherwise, because you are literally eignoring the plain written word in place of something you are making up.

You are simply wrong on this, and seemingly are blind to it. There is no point in you restating your position, as no matter how often you repeat it your contention, that "context" only means "FOrce", it will not alter the fact that the context is "Force Weapon", and ALL weapons can cause ID through Strength

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 00:41:59

Post by: OIIIIIIO

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context outside of "FW". There is no mention of the Force rule, just Force Weapons.

ALL FW can cause ID through activating the Force rule OR through double strength. That is the context. You have no rules support otherwise, because you are literally eignoring the plain written word in place of something you are making up.

You are simply wrong on this, and seemingly are blind to it. There is no point in you restating your position, as no matter how often you repeat it your contention, that "context" only means "FOrce", it will not alter the fact that the context is "Force Weapon", and ALL weapons can cause ID through Strength

Oh now ... quit it ... you are being such a Negative Nancy ... I find it humorous that he keeps bringing up pg. 37 .... and only wants to look there. I have offered the advice of LOOKING at pg. 37 which references pg. 38, which in turn references pg. 16 that equates into ........ wait for it ........ HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Since ID is already attached to the NFW (via double toughness) that you need not 'activate' said FW. We all know that Kharn's rule ignores ID from activated ..... no wait scratch that, ANY FW.

Simple 3rd grade English in my book. But I am just a dumb old Ironworker that has to pay attention to detail or else the bridges that you drive on will FALL DOWN.

(I cant read but I look at the pretty pictures and can count all the way to POTATO.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 02:32:52

Post by: Neronoxx

OIIIIIIO wrote:


Simple 3rd grade English in my book. But I am just a dumb old Ironworker that has to pay attention to detail or else the bridges that you drive on will FALL DOWN.

(I cant read but I look at the pretty pictures and can count all the way to POTATO.

Laughed so friggin hard right here.

Reply by: HumeyKillar - click to view full reply 

50099

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 09:06:17

Post by: HumeyKillar

Humey - your take is a houserule, not based in actual rules.

well, look at page 4 of your rulebook; The Most Important Rule.. seems like you missed something

I play 40k for several years now and always there are debates and disputes because we are driven to win the game.
but isn't the essence of a game that we have fun together? I know we'd all have a great laugh if a grot or a gundrone kills your demon prince in CC!

but the only thing I see here is ten HUGE pages of discussion, where nobody gets an answer...

in my opinion, you should keep that Most Important Rule alive to settle this debate and go on when it is FAQed or someone gets an answer in another way,
but apparently it cannot be solved with just our brains and the book. WELL THEN LET THAT BE! (accept some stupidness inside you, we're not Einsteins )

calm down, get a drink and get gaming, not fighting(leave that to your mini's)

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 09:39:32

Post by: nosferatu1001

1) Read the tenets of this forum. Done that yet?
2) Learn there is a difference between play and discussion. This forum is a perfect place to discuss things before / after playing games, where you have the leisure to actually examine the written rule and determine what it actually says, not wat you assume it says

You are assuming it is limited to just Force, however the actual rules do not say that. Hence, your method IS a houserule, as there are no actual rules supporting your contention.

Reply by: Neronoxx - click to view full reply 

39712

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 09:47:41

Post by: Neronoxx

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Read the tenets of this forum. Done that yet?
2) Learn there is a difference between play and discussion. This forum is a perfect place to discuss things before / after playing games, where you have the leisure to actually examine the written rule and determine what it actually says, not wat you assume it says

You are assuming it is limited to just Force, however the actual rules do not say that. Hence, your method IS a houserule, as there are no actual rules supporting your contention.

I still don't understand how people can't follow such a simple rule. Theres no wiggle room with this rule....

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 10:04:36

Post by: nosferatu1001

BEcause a lot of people let their assumptions colour their arguments.

So many people don't read the tenets - TMIR is completely pointless in this forum, as it is the deus ex machina of 40k rules.

Reply by: juraigamer - click to view full reply 

25703

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 15:01:05

Post by: juraigamer

OIIIIIIO wrote:
HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Str 4? Oh look I'm toughness 2, I'm instant death-ed

RAW states kharn can't be ID from any wound from any force weapon, activated or otherwise. If it really bothers you, spam GW's phones with the question until they FAQ it. Until then, kharn doesn't care.

Reply by: Exergy - click to view full reply 

38926

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 17:35:28

Post by: Exergy

Lungpickle wrote:
LOL
Theres no need to faq this. As much as it pains me to say it the people who have stated that force is not ID kharn its the ID from str over toughness then he is dead meat. Period since you activate force on an unsaved wound and he was smashed due to str vs toughness force is not needed nor relevant for this argument.
The OP's arguments are silly simply because you refuse to see the futility of your argument when the listed text is right on his entry in the CSM codex. Next time you play grey knights get kharn into a challenge with someone and hope he's not the one with a hammer.
str vs toughness, and force are 2 ways in which you can be instakilled. They are two separate rules entrys and kharns rules only cover one.

its still funny reading the arguments that are for the latter IMHO. Like rowwing a boat upstream with a broke oar.

Kharns rule does not cover the force special rule, it covers ID from force weapons. ANY ID from force weapons.

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 18:39:09

Post by: OIIIIIIO

 juraigamer wrote:

OIIIIIIO wrote:
HOW YOU CAN BE ID FROM FORCE RULE AND.................. double toughness.

Str 4? Oh look I'm toughness 2, I'm instant death-ed

RAW states kharn can't be ID from any wound from any force weapon, activated or otherwise. If it really bothers you, spam GW's phones with the question until they FAQ it. Until then, kharn doesn't care.

Before you quote me and try to be snide .... read what is written in my post. ALL OF IT.

Reply by: juraigamer - click to view full reply 

25703

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 18:45:07

Post by: juraigamer

Trust me, I only need to quote what needs to be answered. I dislike quote wars.

As stated, Kharn doesn't care about your force weapons and their ID from either double toughness and/or activation.

Reply by: OIIIIIIO - click to view full reply 

66727

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2012/12/31 19:51:31

Post by: OIIIIIIO

 juraigamer wrote:
Trust me, I only need to quote what needs to be answered. I dislike quote wars.

As stated, Kharn doesn't care about your force weapons and their ID from either double toughness and/or activation.

Either you are being obtuse or you genuinely do not read English well. If you read what I posted in its entirety you would comprehend that I have been saying that Kharn's rule ignores ID from FW in ANY way, shape or form.

Read through all ten pages of this thread and you will see that.

It is highly irritating that YOU miscomprehend and are snide about it.

Read what is written ..... then, understand what is written .... all in its entirety. Not that difficult.

Reply by: Lungpickle - click to view full reply 

60145

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 18:48:30

Post by: Lungpickle

So what I gather from the naysayers is that Kharn is immune to all instant death, force or otherwise?, however hes not and eternal warrior and is only tough 4. Blessing of the blood god IS awesome..

Oh wait back to reality from fantasy land. Double str to his toughness still Insta kills him on a failed save period. Force use is a choice by a player to activate and use after there is an unsaved wound and so if a deamon hammer smashes his face in and he is killed from the str of the weapon and not the force activation then he is dead. Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Im baffled by this confussion and if and when it gets faQ'ed you will see your missinterpretation of the rule as it stands. Therte really shouldnt be any confussion now but adley there is.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 18:52:41

Post by: nosferatu1001

Erm, nope. Try actually reading the thread again

He is immune to ID CAUSED BY FORCE WEAPONS. Wheter they use Force, or are just strong enough to do it through double strength, if a force weapon causes it he is immune.

"Its not a force weapon till its activated "

Utterly made up. retract it as you have just lied.

Reply by: grendel083 - click to view full reply 

49616

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 18:53:04

Post by: grendel083

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated

The rulebook strongly disagrees with you.
A force weapon is always a force weapon. Using the Force rule doesn't make it a force weapon, it's a force weapon to begin with.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 18:56:46

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

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Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 21:42:33

Post by: Unit1126PLL

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

Reply by: Exergy - click to view full reply 

38926

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 21:57:34

Post by: Exergy

Lungpickle wrote:
So what I gather from the naysayers is that Kharn is immune to all instant death, force or otherwise?, however hes not and eternal warrior and is only tough 4. Blessing of the blood god IS awesome..
Oh wait back to reality from fantasy land. Double str to his toughness still Insta kills him on a failed save period. Force use is a choice by a player to activate and use after there is an unsaved wound and so if a deamon hammer smashes his face in and he is killed from the str of the weapon and not the force activation then he is dead. Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.
Im baffled by this confussion and if and when it gets faQ'ed you will see your missinterpretation of the rule as it stands. Therte really shouldnt be any confussion now but adley there is.

as has been stated before, his rule is not that he ignores the Force Special Rule
He ignores ID from Force Weapons

A Storm Raven Ignores the Melta Special Rule on a meltagun
A CWE Avatar Ignores all damage from meltaguns
Kharn Ignores ID Force Weapons

Reply by: Hedkrakka - click to view full reply 

64093

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 22:00:23

Post by: Hedkrakka

Activation or no activation, you're using a Force weapon, and that rule in the codex never says that Daemonhammers aren't force weapons if not activated. The bottom line is, you're using the weapon to ignore Kharn's armor save and strike at S8 or 9 with Hammerhand for the ID rule. So your character is S4/5, the weapon makes your strength into double toughness and it's a Force Weapon, i.e. cannot ID Kharn. Rad grenades+double Hammerhand don't work either, because you need to strike with a non-Force close combat weapon or pistol, which most GK don't have. Although it would be hilarious to see Kharn suffer ID from a pistol whip.

Reply by: grendel083 - click to view full reply 

49616

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/02 22:36:41

Post by: grendel083

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

Reply by: Unit1126PLL - click to view full reply 

42382

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 00:12:55

Post by: Unit1126PLL

 grendel083 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

My bad. I misunderstood the initial poster in the quote tree. Derp.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 04:23:41

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a force weapon till its activated till then it has the powers to do so but shall not be needed in this case.

Citation needed.

Grey Knights Codex, page 54. "All Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." - at least for daemonhammers.

That's reinforcing the fact that force weapons are always force weapons, not just when activated.
Not the citation JD was after.

My bad. I misunderstood the initial poster in the quote tree. Derp.

No worries, you're still driving home my point even if it wasn't the asked for citation.
Lungpickle is just in the wrong here. Trying to show why, or at least like to help them out with the right rules. Or figure out what they're looking at wrong.

Reply by: Art_of_war - click to view full reply 

67268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 11:28:30

Post by: Art_of_war

first off...

this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

however this is not how some would play it i must point out.

where this has all sprung up is due to the fact that in 5th he would have been spalttered by the str8 hit (no hammerhand included) from the hammer alone- no need to activiate them at all...

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

just my humble view

Reply by: Tri - click to view full reply 

6769

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 12:01:50

Post by: Tri

Art_of_war wrote:

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

Or Kharn rule needs changing to "Immune to ID from the 'force' USR" ... unless he really is meant to shrug it off.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 13:59:52

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

Art_of_war wrote:

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

You do realize all force weapons, are still force weapons even if they're not "activated" including one's like Mephiston, Libby's, Rune Priests, etc.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 14:02:04

Post by: nosferatu1001

Which given they wrote the chaos codex in full knowledge that S8 force weapons existed, is hard to claim that the plain written rule isnt what they actually intended

Still waiting on lungpickle to prove that force weapons arent always force weapons. THat was a hilarious mis step....

Reply by: Exergy - click to view full reply 

38926

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/03 18:43:16

Post by: Exergy

Art_of_war wrote:
first off...

this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

however this is not how some would play it i must point out.

where this has all sprung up is due to the fact that in 5th he would have been spalttered by the str8 hit (no hammerhand included) from the hammer alone- no need to activiate them at all...

really its the nemesis wepon rules that needed re-working i.e they don't count as a force weapon for purpose of ID by strength alone- but count as force weapons when 'activated'

just my humble view

the Kharn in 5th came from a completely different codex with very 4th edition codex different rules

Reply by: Khalbrae - click to view full reply 

65332

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/04 01:28:33

Post by: Khalbrae

Art_of_war wrote:
this argument has been a right laugh as it just shows how silly using RAW would be in some instances, but as that is the rules here...

Kharn cannot be splattered by the daemon hammer due to the fact it is a force weapon (unusual i my add ) and since ID is also refered to as being doubled out he can safely tell you to sod off

Could always just "Forge a Narrative".

"Khorne renders the demonhammer floppy, when it comes in for a killing blow, causing Kharn to only take damage at strength value for purposes of ID"

Reply by: Tri - click to view full reply 

6769

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/04 01:35:58

Post by: Tri

Khalbrae wrote:
"Khorne renders the demonhammer floppy, when it comes in for a killing blow, causing Kharn to only take damage at strength value for purposes of ID"

More likely ... he looks at the psyker and goes ...
"no Fecking way your going to kill me! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

A takes their skull for Khorn's glory ... or dies for it. Doesn't really matter so long as some one gets hurt.

Reply by: Che-Vito - click to view full reply 

12620

Kharn the Betrayer Ignoring ID from a Daemon Hammer @ 2013/01/05 17:50:52

Post by: Che-Vito

< Taken by the void dragon. >

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