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Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 19:01:13


Post by: Chaos Rising


So Ihave heard that if swarms take instant death from a template they do not also take double hits like they normally would. Is this true?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 20:05:32


Post by: Lobokai


 Chaos Rising wrote:
So Ihave heard that if swarms take instant death from a template they do not also take double hits like they normally would. Is this true?


I can't think of a reason they would not take instant death. There was an entire thread on this, but our crap search function can't find it. Maybe it's just operator error an someone else can find it for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/483504.page#4895049

Here it is. People not using proper terminology in titles.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 20:09:20


Post by: Gravmyr


Both effects occur when a swarm suffers an unsaved wound they would occur at the same time the model would take two wounds both of which cause instant death. Template hits do not cause double hits, unsaved wounds suffered from template or blasts are doubled. Instant death is also checked for when the model suffers an unsaved wound at double it's toughness.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 20:18:42


Post by: Lobokai


I'm assuming he was thinking blast when he put template

T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die. Amount of saves required is doubled, effect of those wounds is ID.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 20:27:43


Post by: Gravmyr


The amount of saves are not doubled. The first line in swarms says when a swarm suffers unsaved wounds from blasts or templates each unsaved wound is doubled. Now we look at the Special Rules definition on pg 32 and only models have special rules. If we then extrapolate from there for the Swarms rule it would read. "If a model with Swarm suffers an unsaved wound from Blasts or Templates, each unsaved wound is multiplied to two unsaved wounds." Since the wounds only go from the wound pool to the model to be suffered one at a time then you would apply an unsaved wound, multiply it to two, then check for ID. One base lost per unsaved wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 20:35:09


Post by: DeathReaper


If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:
 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 21:16:38


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:
 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 21:23:36


Post by: Gravmyr


When are wounds suffered? A rule similar to this is FNP, as it also says suffered. It's current existence including the changes in the FAQ shows that it's not once the wound is unsaved but when the wound is allocated to the model itself. If we count the pool of unsaved wounds as having been suffered then what other rules are triggered even if something prevents the wounds? Feel No Pain, Concussive, Force, Pinning all use the same wording of suffering an unsaved wound. FNP has set a precedent for how all these things should work, one at a time at the time of allocation. If you assume that the unsaved wounds have already been suffered and are doubled before allocation then what's to stop sniper fire from causing a pinning test before Feel No Pain as being my shooting phase I choose that ability to activate before Feel No Pain, same with Concussive or Force?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 21:25:30


Post by: Lobokai


 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:
 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.


Touché, I agree. I had the SR switched in my head.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 21:30:41


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:
 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.

3 wounds is incorrect.

The wounds are doubled when they suffer the unsaved wounds, which happens immediately after failed saves.

So fail 4 saves, there are now 8 wounds in the wound pool, and they all cause ID. (P.43 for swarm rules).

@Gravmyr you must take FNP before you suffer an unsaved wound, though if you fail FNP then that unsaved wound is doubled.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 21:43:09


Post by: Gravmyr


FNP states "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound..." so clearly the Wound is suffered triggering the other abilities listed above if you are doing it as soon as the wound is unsaved. Units cannot suffer Wounds only models as a unit does not have a Wounds characteristic only each model. Only upon allocation does the model suffer a wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 22:16:37


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If the save's are all the same you take saves, then allocate wounds to the unit, killing one base per unsaved wound because of ID.

So in this situation:
 Lobukia wrote:
T3 swarm gets wounded with 4 str 6 hits from a blast, 8 bases die.

take 4 saves, if you fail 4, then you have 8 wounds to allocate, and 8 bases die because those wounds cause ID.

Not true.
4 saves, if 4 fail you allocate a wound, it's doubled, the base dies. There are 3 wounds in the pool.

3 wounds is incorrect.

The wounds are doubled when they suffer the unsaved wounds, which happens immediately after failed saves.

So fail 4 saves, there are now 8 wounds in the wound pool, and they all cause ID. (P.43 for swarm rules).

The swarm rules (have you read them) say to double a wound when the Swarm (a model based rule) suffers an unsaved wound.
Find permission to move that doubled wound back into the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/29 23:40:16


Post by: DeathReaper


I have read them, they say to double the wounds.

Since the swarm has the same armor save you roll the saves in one go, and apply the wounds to the models in the unit. (15)

So you roll 4 saves, fail them all then you double the wounds to 8 wounds and remove the models as neede as outlined on P.15.

Gravmyr wrote:
Units cannot suffer Wounds only models as a unit does not have a Wounds characteristic only each model.
Well no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:15:55


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
I have read them, they say to double the wounds.

You left some important words out.

Since the swarm has the same armor save you roll the saves in one go, and apply the wounds to the models in the unit. (15)

So you roll 4 saves, fail them all then you double the wounds to 8 wounds and remove the models as neede as outlined on P.15.

Incorrect. You double the wounds when they are suffered. As FNP shows us, the wound is not suffered until the model is allocated.
Now find permission to return the wound to the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:36:02


Post by: Drunkspleen


Historically I haven't but I lean towards Gravmyr here, Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

Imagine if you will a unit composed of 1 swarm and 1 not-swarm, if it suffers a wound that causes instant death from a blast weapon, but that wound is assigned to the model without the Swarms rule, there's no reason for it to double, it doesn't matter that you have generated an unsaved wound at the precise time that you failed the save, it's completely and utterly illegal for the Swarms rule to have it's effects applied to a model without Swarms, be they positive or negative.

The same goes for if a unit only partially has Feel No Pain but otherwise identical saves, it doesn't matter that you are meant to roll once you suffer the wound, because it's not at all correct for a model in that unit that does not possess Feel No Pain to benefit from it.

These rules have to apply only once you know that the model actually receiving the wound has the special rule and no sooner, and given the wound is "multiplied" I figure it should inherit all traits of the wound it is multiplied from, including which model is actually suffering it.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:43:51


Post by: DeathReaper


And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.
 Drunkspleen wrote:
Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:46:04


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.

So FNP rolls come before allocation as well?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:47:59


Post by: DeathReaper


FNP is a strange case because it treats unsaved wounds as saved if the test is made.

Though RAW FNP is broken.

That is not a surprise, many rules are broken in this edition.

But so are armor saves, as it says that units can take an armor save, which of course is untrue as models have AS values not units.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 00:50:03


Post by: rigeld2


Regardless, the unit suffers wounds before allocation.
The Swarm rule is model based, and therefore requires allocation before it doubles.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 01:51:58


Post by: Drunkspleen


 DeathReaper wrote:
And you suffer unsaved wounds after failed saves. which is before allocation.
 Drunkspleen wrote:
Special Rules are defined as belonging to models, so unless they say they affect an entire unit when it contains said models (which swarms does not) you can't apply the rules on a unit basis.

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 15), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


Of course, the context of that is that the immediately preceding paragraph says "For now, we're going to assume that all the models in the target unit have the same saving throw" making it abundantly clear to a reasonable person that the "unit's saving throw" is the one shared by all members of said unit.

Either way, I don't see how your insistence that "Unit" and "models in said unit" are interchangeable terms effects my point that if you double wounds on a unit basis rather than a model basis you risk fundamentally breaking the rules by allowing a model without a special rule to experience the effects of that special rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 02:21:53


Post by: Gravmyr


Under types of saving throws: Armour saves pg 16, "To make an armour save,roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." Clearly if any save is taken then the wound is allocated first. The reason for doing a bulk roll is to speed up the game.

When does a model suffer a wound?

Example
Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.

This again shows that wounds are suffered when applied to a model not when sitting in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


As an aside pg 15 also states:
"The model gets to make a saving throw....."

I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages. The mixed saves section states they do as does the actual armour save section. The saves are always taken on a model by model basis but just like in the rest of life they are trying to save time.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 03:00:50


Post by: Neronoxx


Gravmyr wrote:
Under types of saving throws: Armour saves pg 16, "To make an armour save,roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." Clearly if any save is taken then the wound is allocated first. The reason for doing a bulk roll is to speed up the game.

When does a model suffer a wound?

Example
Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.

This again shows that wounds are suffered when applied to a model not when sitting in the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:

no models take saves either...
As per P.15 "the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved."

RAW the unit makes the save, and units do not have armor so no save can be attempted. Or they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


As an aside pg 15 also states:
"The model gets to make a saving throw....."

I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages. The mixed saves section states they do as does the actual armour save section. The saves are always taken on a model by model basis but just like in the rest of life they are trying to save time.


Going with Gravmyr on this. He's provided sufficient evidence to support his claims.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 08:28:54


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.
So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 15:49:02


Post by: megatrons2nd


 DeathReaper wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.
So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.


Yes.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 15:52:15


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
I understand that in the same saving throw section it states that the unit takes saves but again short hand or they would be trying to add another hundred pages.
So they use the word Unit and models in said unit interchangeably.

Which has zero relevancy - as the Swarm SR (the thing that actually doubles the wounds) is model based and therefore requires allocation to happen before its doubled.

You still haven't found (or at least cited) permission to move a wound back into the pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 15:52:17


Post by: Gravmyr


I fail to see how that changes a thing. Yes they use short hand. And? As the quote from the FAQ shows wounds are only suffered when a model is allocated the wound, fails it's save and then reduces it's remaining wounds by one. If a Swarm had FNP how would you do it in your model? Would you roll each of the 8 Wounds on FNP?

Using your model the wounds have not been suffered but are still sitting in a pool. If that is the case then there are a number of rules that automatically kick in whether or not the wound has been allocated. You haven't provided a single rules quote that backs you in the slightest.

Scenario:
A unit is targeted by Snipers. They take 6 Wounds, 1 is precision, and because of identical saves make a bulk save roll and fail 4, leaving 4 Wounds in the wound pool, including the Precision.

Your Method triggers a Pinning Test immediately using the highest LD.

Prescribed Method allows me to force the Precision first on the highest LD model forcing them to take a pinning test after he has been removed.


The Swarm USR states when a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound, not when a swarm fails it's save. How would you rule it if I added an IC to the unit? One base of swarm in front IC then the rest of the swarm unit behind, all with the same saves. The first base takes a hit from the said weapons fails it's roll has the wound doubled and causes ID. Would the second wound now auto carry over to the IC? In your model yes as he is part of a Swarm unit and he also gets no save. The way I have set forth the Base takes a hit makes it's save fails has the wound on it doubled then is checked for ID. The next hit hits the IC and resolved as normal with no doubling on a failed save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 19:00:58


Post by: barnowl


Wounds always go to the wound pool before they can be allocated. If a model takes a wound the wound doubles. You know have one allocated and one wound that is not yet allocate as the "wound doubled". Not the "wound allocated to the model doubled". So where does this wound start? Based on wound ruleson pg 14 all the wounds you have caused would go in to the pool. This wound include wounds caused by target special rules such as vulnerable to blast/template. This is the rules are arguement for RAW that supports the RAI of "vulnerable to blasts/tmeplates". Each wound should double out a base.

The Swarm USR states when a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound, not when a swarm fails it's save. How would you rule it if I added an IC to the unit? One base of swarm in front IC then the rest of the swarm unit behind, all with the same saves. The first base takes a hit from the said weapons fails it's roll has the wound doubled and causes ID. Would the second wound now auto carry over to the IC? In your model yes as he is part of a Swarm unit and he also gets no save. The way I have set forth the Base takes a hit makes it's save fails has the wound on it doubled then is checked for ID. The next hit hits the IC and resolved as normal with no doubling on a failed save.


There is no reason in either case for the IC to not get an armour save. Yes the second would would auto carry over to the IC, who assuming his Sav was higher than the AP would get a save. However any wounds he took would not be doubled.

There is a sneaky problem with this rule doubling wounds as the model takes them instead of simply doubling the pool. In RAW there is nothing to limit the doubling affect of wounds if they trigger as the model is wounded, creating a rule that effectively wipes units out with a single template wound. In Gravmyr's scenario there is nothing that prevents the doubled wound from doubling again and jumping to the next base.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 19:06:14


Post by: rigeld2


The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 21:48:18


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.


Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

Putting an IC into a swarm squad actually can change the order (as per page 15), and now the wound pool matters. Then I can see your point, but RAW, without an IC, 1 unsaved wound can cause two ID wounds, killing 2 bases of swarm models if they fail their save/don't have one.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 22:16:44


Post by: copper.talos


You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden. And in any case the presence of an IC should not change how a wound resolves.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 22:30:51


Post by: Fragile


copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.



Cite what makes it forbidden.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 23:27:09


Post by: nosferatu1001


The fact there is no permission to do so, mainly.

Find permission to put the wound back in the wound pool, or admit it cannot be done.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/30 23:51:43


Post by: rigeld2


 Lobukia wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.


Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

What you're missing is that the wound is not doubled until after its allocated.
So 4 wounds are caused.
4 saves are failed/negated.
1 wound is allocated. Swarm model 1 takes a wound. It is doubled to two. The STR is high enough to ID the model. Model dies and second wound goes with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.

Cite what makes it forbidden.

Wrong way around bucko - permissive rules. I've proven that the wound is created after allocation. Please cite where a wound would return from being allocated and add to the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 02:49:02


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:
 Lobukia wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.


Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

What you're missing is that the wound is not doubled until after its allocated.
So 4 wounds are caused.
4 saves are failed/negated.
1 wound is allocated. Swarm model 1 takes a wound. It is doubled to two. The STR is high enough to ID the model. Model dies and second wound goes with it.


Okay, I see that, and I get it, but I disagree as to your reading of it

"is a swarm suffers an unsaved wound... its multiplied to two unsaved wounds" page 43

"make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused... next allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closets to the firing unit..." page 15

Seems like allocation happens after the doubling, not before. How do you know that allocation happens before the doubling, because I'm seeing quite the opposite. As page 15 makes no reference to the wound pool one way or another for same save units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.

Cite what makes it forbidden.

Wrong way around bucko - permissive rules. I've proven that the wound is created after allocation. Please cite where a wound would return from being allocated and add to the wound pool.


Please cite how it matters whether or not the wound goes to the wound pool, as page 43 and 15 seem to think the wound pool is immaterial for same save units


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:24:48


Post by: rigeld2


It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:29:53


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.
Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:39:26


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.
Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:44:52


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.
Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.
But units do not suffer wounds, models do...


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:56:42


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.
Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.
But units do not suffer wounds, models do...

Regardless, the wounds are demonstrably not doubled until they are allocated.
And I'd love a citation for the quoted statement.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 03:57:56


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.


You seem very sure of this, but where is this connection coming from? In 5th edition, something being model instead of unit based would have been remarkable, but 6th edition should be called "model edition". Cover is model based, saves are model based, SR are model based, range is model based, the whole game is model based. Something being model based doesn't alter game mechanics, it is the game mechanic. Every wound in the game is model based, so thinking this is something special or unique is a non sequitur.

Page 15, "Take Saving Throws" makes it 100% clear that saves and wounds caused by failing those is a unit based roll and result. On failing, for a swarm, the wounds are doubled (as per page 43). It says suffered (which would be anything that makes it past a save), not allocated. After they are doubled, we would then proceed to "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties". Those, now doubled wounds, get allocated. Once a model receives a wound, through allocation, that doubles its toughness, it suffers ID, and is removed.




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:00:11


Post by: DeathReaper


For the quoted "units do not suffer wounds, models do"?

The onus is on you to say otherwise, as units do not have a wounds value.

Do you have something that says units can suffer wounds or have a wound characteristic?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:07:57


Post by: rigeld2


 Lobukia wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.


You seem very sure of this, but where is this connection coming from? In 5th edition, something being model instead of unit based would have been remarkable, but 6th edition should be called "model edition". Cover is model based, saves are model based, SR are model based, range is model based, the whole game is model based. Something being model based doesn't alter game mechanics, it is the game mechanic. Every wound in the game is model based, so thinking this is something special or unique is a non sequitur.

I never said it was unique.

Page 15, "Take Saving Throws" makes it 100% clear that saves and wounds caused by failing those is a unit based roll and result. On failing, for a swarm, the wounds are doubled (as per page 43). It says suffered (which would be anything that makes it past a save), not allocated. After they are doubled, we would then proceed to "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties". Those, now doubled wounds, get allocated. Once a model receives a wound, through allocation, that doubles its toughness, it suffers ID, and is removed.

So how does a model suffer a wound before its allocated? Ill wait.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:12:26


Post by: DeathReaper


That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:12:30


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
For the quoted "units do not suffer wounds, models do"?

The onus is on you to say otherwise, as units do not have a wounds value.

Do you have something that says models can suffer wounds or have a wound characteristic?

I know you meant units here, not models.
No, I don't. And it actually helps my point that units cannot suffer wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:14:26


Post by: DeathReaper


Yes that last line was supposed to say units.

However my quotes from P.15 and 16 tell you the process of suffering unsaved wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:16:50


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:23:41


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:

So how does a model suffer a wound before its allocated? Ill wait.


It's part of a same save unit. Look at saving throws in general (another model by model part of the game). Page 17 tells us Invuln saves are taken after a wound is suffered. Do you think a unit of same save terminators hit with plasma guns has wounds allocated and then rolls saves? Or, do you think you roll the saves and then allocate failed rolls? I've never met anyone in 6th edition that preforms the latter over the former... if you do it the opposite way, I'll concede that you are at least consistent and I'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:27:16


Post by: rigeld2


RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:37:40


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:40:12


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:
RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.


As always, assuming a same save unit...

Invulns are a saving throw.... (page 16 and 17)
Saving throws are taken before allocation.... (page 15)
Invulns are something that happens after suffering.... (page 17)

...therefore suffering must happen before allocation... right?

Where do we get anything different to go off of here, where is my logic flawed?

SIDENOTE: I totally recognize and acknowledge that I've made you restate quite a bit that you've already said in this thread. I kinda came into this late, as I was following when not by my rule-book. You've been respectful and courteous the entire time as I've asked question after question, thank you for letting this be a debate not a flame-thrower bout.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 04:54:00


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.

Sorry, I misremembered my book.
So an unsaved wound is equated to a suffered wound. Would you agree?
Side question if that's the case - would FNP remove one wound or two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lobukia wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.


As always, assuming a same save unit...

Invulns are a saving throw.... (page 16 and 17)
Saving throws are taken before allocation.... (page 15)
Invulns are something that happens after suffering.... (page 17)

...therefore suffering must happen before allocation... right?

Where do we get anything different to go off of here, where is my logic flawed?

So FNP must also happen before allocation, yes?

SIDENOTE: I totally recognize and acknowledge that I've made you restate quite a bit that you've already said in this thread. I kinda came into this late, as I was following when not by my rule-book. You've been respectful and courteous the entire time as I've asked question after question, thank you for letting this be a debate not a flame-thrower bout.

Thanks. I try to be level headed most of the time.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 05:05:17


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.

Sorry, I misremembered my book.
So an unsaved wound is equated to a suffered wound. Would you agree?
Side question if that's the case - would FNP remove one wound or two?

It could be two, as the wounds are doubled after the failed save, and FNP treats the wound as saved.

Though it says when you suffer an unsaved wound roll FNP, so it could be that you have to roll 2 FNP rolls for each doubled unsaved wound.

I really do not know how to call this one, as the rules seem to have equal weight, so I would recommend taking the least advantageous interpretation. Of course I have no idea what the least advantageous interpretation is. maybe the first one.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 05:06:03


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:

So FNP must also happen before allocation, yes?


For a same save unit, yes, if they all have FNP (which parallels to them all being Swarm models). I've always played that a CSM squad with FNP rolls FNP before allocation... only the failed rolls get allocated

The way I see it, either invuln saves break the game (with one reading of the rules), or Swarm doubling (and FNP) happens before allocation (and the game works again).

EDIT: To any late comers: which is why I feel that 3 Str 6 wounds from a blast weapon that bypass any saves to a Swarm unit with T3, causes 6 models to be removed, not 3 (cause I know most of you won't read past the last half dozen posts).


Thanks. I try to be level headed most of the time.


Doing well... better than yours truly, might I add... I go snarky quicker than I should


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 07:30:56


Post by: Gravmyr


The FAQ itself shows that the wounds are not "suffered" till they reduce a model's Wounds not when they are Wounds or unsaved Wounds in a pool. There has been no attempt to address this by anyone arguing that you double the wounds in the pool.


Per pg 16 Armour Saves, "To make an armour save, roll a d6 and compare the result to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound."
Per pg 17 Invulnerable Save, "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound-"

What if allocation and suffered are being used interchangeably? In that event, in mixed or same save units, would that not cover all avenues? In same save you roll them find the number of unsaved wounds then allocate the wound/the model suffers the wound, which is when it is doubled as well as checking for ID. In mixed save you allocate the wound/the model suffers the wound then it makes it's save and if it fails it is then doubled and checked for ID. In either case this covers every occurrence of triggering for all rules. This also would cover why the wounds in the pool in a challenge are not "suffered" and as such not counted in combat resolution.

Edit: Due to the changes in FNP procedure Wounds are now done in the mixed save method requiring allocation first.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 13:39:35


Post by: -Nazdreg-


What if allocation and suffered are being used interchangeably?


This still makes no difference.

The procedure is like that:

1. Roll saves -> no saves made or possible -> 4 unsaved wounds
2. Allocate wounds -> 1st guy suffers an unsaved wound, which then is doubled, so he suffers 2 unsaved wounds. Then ID is triggered and he is removed regardless of remaining wounds. Same happens with second, third and fourth allocated wound.

Now where is the problem?




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 13:56:00


Post by: Lobokai


Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 14:13:36


Post by: rigeld2


 Lobukia wrote:
Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

So in a same save unit, according to you, wounds are doubled before allocation.
With the changes to FNP (thanks for pointing them out Gravmyr, I'd forgotten), and the fact that wounds are not suffered in a mixed save unit until after allocation, the wound would be allocated, wounds doubled, nothing returns to the pool, base is removed. Note that this applies even if you cannot make a FNP roll due to ID.

This is wackadoodle. I'm gonna re-read some of the rule book today if I have time around my sons 3rd birthday party.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 14:25:55


Post by: Lobokai


rigeld2 wrote:
 Lobukia wrote:
Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

So in a same save unit, according to you, wounds are doubled before allocation.

Agreed

With the changes to FNP (thanks for pointing them out Gravmyr, I'd forgotten), and the fact that wounds are not suffered in a mixed save unit until after allocation, the wound would be allocated, wounds doubled, nothing returns to the pool, base is removed. Note that this applies even if you cannot make a FNP roll due to ID.

Also agreed (and thanks Gravmyr, again... brain fart for me too... got caught up in reading the book and forgot to refer to FAQ for FNP... even though I had just scanned in a dozen times for ID and allocation etc.)

This is wackadoodle.

Completely... Thanks GW, the magic of having a character makes the entire wound matrix alter... why again?

I'm gonna re-read some of the rule book today if I have time around my sons 3rd birthday party.

Hey!, congrats. I've got a 3YO of my own. Tons of questions at 2YO, but at 3 it went supernova.... good luck if its your 1st 3YO, I'm sure its an old hat if you've got others



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 14:54:47


Post by: sirlynchmob


4 ID wounds cause 8 bases to be removed.

We start on pg 14 the wound pool. All wounds caused go here.

pg 15. take saving throws, make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused (in the pool)
pg 19. models with moire than one save. (the unit might take the wounds, but saves are model by model)
the unit consisting of models all with the swarm rule take their saves and fail 4. Because its here where you work out what model is making the save. The closest model makes A save based on what saves it has available, ie cover or armor. So the model with swarm has been allocated a wound it now gets to save against. The wounds are still in the pool, and get doubled. in other words a swarm model has been allocated a wounds, then failed its save so its suffered an unsaved wound.

short version: The unit now has 4 unsaved wounds in the pool which get doubled to 8.

Allocate unsaved wounds & remove casualties.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 15:10:56


Post by: rigeld2


Once you allocate a wound its no longer in the wound pool, so your statement cannot be correct.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 15:17:38


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
Once you allocate a wound its no longer in the wound pool, so your statement cannot be correct.


Yes, once you get to the allocate portion the wounds leave the pool. As that takes place after the wounds have been doubled my statement stands.

Your unit suffers wounds
Your closest model takes a save
your unit now has unsaved wounds in the pool once your swarm model takes a save against a wound and fails, it has suffered an unsaved wound.
those wounds are noted in the wound pool and then doubled

Finally you allocate.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 15:33:36


Post by: Gravmyr


What do you say to the statement that the Wounds in the pool have yet to be suffered per the FAQ? Your entire argument that they are doubled before allocation hinges on the assumption that as soon as the save has been failed they are suffered in the same save method. It is clear that they are not. For a wound to be suffered it requires two things, a failed save and allocation to a model. Wounds in the pool have not been allocated in the same save Wound pool and neither allocated nor saves have been taken in the mixed save Wound pool. the proposed method of doubling the pool only works in units with only models with the Swarm USR. As soon as we alter this in any way, by including any other rule or a character, your method stops working. If you work it out as I have set forth it works for all rules and all mixes of saves and wound types.

Take the inclusion of of an IC as I stated before. The reason he would not get a save versus the doubled wound is the Swarm USR says the unsaved wound is doubled. Unsaved means the save has been failed so he would not be afforded a save of his own.

The other rules in the USR that affect how the unit works all state a unit that includes at least one model with the "Titled" USR or a unit with "Titled" USR.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 15:55:51


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
What do you say to the statement that the Wounds in the pool have yet to be suffered per the FAQ? Your entire argument that they are doubled before allocation hinges on the assumption that as soon as the save has been failed they are suffered in the same save method. It is clear that they are not. For a wound to be suffered it requires two things, a failed save and allocation to a model. Wounds in the pool have not been allocated in the same save Wound pool and neither allocated nor saves have been taken in the mixed save Wound pool. the proposed method of doubling the pool only works in units with only models with the Swarm USR. As soon as we alter this in any way, by including any other rule or a character, your method stops working. If you work it out as I have set forth it works for all rules and all mixes of saves and wound types.

Take the inclusion of of an IC as I stated before. The reason he would not get a save versus the doubled wound is the Swarm USR says the unsaved wound is doubled. Unsaved means the save has been failed so he would not be afforded a save of his own.

The other rules in the USR that affect how the unit works all state a unit that includes at least one model with the "Titled" USR or a unit with "Titled" USR.


Help me out here, what FAQ are you referring to and pg # please.

No where is it ever specified that suffers = allocate. That is a baseless assumption you are making. And judging from all the usage of "unsaved wounds" it clearly implies unsaved wounds in the pool before allocations.









Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:06:15


Post by: Gravmyr


BRB FAQ pg 5 left hand side

Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:06:37


Post by: barnowl


rigeld2 wrote:
 Lobukia wrote:
Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

So in a same save unit, according to you, wounds are doubled before allocation.
With the changes to FNP (thanks for pointing them out Gravmyr, I'd forgotten), and the fact that wounds are not suffered in a mixed save unit until after allocation, the wound would be allocated, wounds doubled, nothing returns to the pool, base is removed. Note that this applies even if you cannot make a FNP roll due to ID.

This is wackadoodle. I'm gonna re-read some of the rule book today if I have time around my sons 3rd birthday party.


PEr the rule book all wounds caused go in to the pool pg 14. Because these have a special rule they would be second group in the pool. Following your logic, there is no rule that allows you to allocate the second unsaved wound. The rules does not say the model suffers double wounds but rather that the unsaved wound is multipled to two wounds. The second wound is not allocated by the swarm rule to the same model, nor as you point out does the swarm rule specifically say it goes to the pool. My read is that Page 14 tells us what to do with the multipled result wounds.

Agree with the Wackadoodle, this should have been faqed as it has raged for 2 editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote:
BRB FAQ pg 5 left hand side

Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.


That is only referring to assault results which has different rules for tallying wounds than wound allocation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote:
What do you say to the statement that the Wounds in the pool have yet to be suffered per the FAQ? Your entire argument that they are doubled before allocation hinges on the assumption that as soon as the save has been failed they are suffered in the same save method. It is clear that they are not. For a wound to be suffered it requires two things, a failed save and allocation to a model. Wounds in the pool have not been allocated in the same save Wound pool and neither allocated nor saves have been taken in the mixed save Wound pool. the proposed method of doubling the pool only works in units with only models with the Swarm USR. As soon as we alter this in any way, by including any other rule or a character, your method stops working. If you work it out as I have set forth it works for all rules and all mixes of saves and wound types.

Take the inclusion of of an IC as I stated before. The reason he would not get a save versus the doubled wound is the Swarm USR says the unsaved wound is doubled. Unsaved means the save has been failed so he would not be afforded a save of his own.

The other rules in the USR that affect how the unit works all state a unit that includes at least one model with the "Titled" USR or a unit with "Titled" USR.


He does not need a FAQ. It is one page 15 in the rule book, if the group is all the SAME save. If all models have the same save you do saves BEFORE allocation. In this case the wounds in the pool wound be doubled and then allocated. In the case of MIXED saves , you allocate first and take saves second, this "ensures every model gets full benefit of whatever saves it is entitled to".


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:26:15


Post by: Gravmyr


Suffered is the key word in multiple rules to do with Wounds. The Swarm USR included. The reason I point it out yet again is that the wounds in the pool are not suffered. No matter how you look at it the only way to make it work is still how I have outlined or you are going to cause a contradiction at some point. By the FAQ statemetn quoted the unsaved Wounds on the wound pool have not been suffered.

Rigeld2 and I have pointed out multiple times that the second Wound doesn't just appear in thin air the first Wound having already been allocated becomes two on the model itself. lowering it's Wound characteristic by two. Then you check for ID. I still maintain that doubling them in the pool only works in your single save scenario how would it be handled if there was any other factor added in?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:29:38


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
BRB FAQ pg 5 left hand side

Q: If a character is removed from play as a casualty after fighting a
challenge, are any excess unsaved Wounds counted when
determining assault results? (p65)
A: No –only the Wounds actually suffered in the challenge
count.


that changes nothing. You will note they are already talking about unsaved wounds.

pg 15 clearly states you first allocate the wound, then resolve saves. Ergo the swarm model was allocated a wound, he failed his saved, and suffered an unsaved wound. We now note the unsaved wounds as per "taking saving throws" Then the unsaved wounds get allocated.

pg 16 armor saves "of the model that has been allocated the wound"
"if the result is lower than the armor save ... it suffers a wound" ie the model suffers a wound, or unsaved wound at this point

pg 17 invuln saves "whenever the model suffers a wound" so the model suffers a wound, then gets to take its save.

pg 18 cover saves "if, when you allocate a wound..."

etc, etc

clearly the swarm model is allocated a wound, it fails it save, it now has an unsaved wound in the pool. After all saves are rolled, "note how many unsaved wounds have been caused" (read suffered) while noting the types of unsaved wounds we double any blast wounds due to swarm.

Then we allocate the unsaved wounds to remove casualties.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:34:42


Post by: Gravmyr


If the wound is allocated first then the wound that is now on a model becomes two not the wound in the pool. If you have allocated the wound it is no longer in a pool when it becomes 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Swarm USR is a model rule not a unit rule. Doubling the wounds that are set for the unit, read not a model, is not what the Swarm USr tells you to do. It does not at any time tell you to double the wounds in the pool nor does it state to double the hits like it used to in 5th.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:37:45


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
If the wound is allocated first then the wound that is now on a model becomes two not the wound in the pool. If you have allocated the wound it is no longer in a pool when it becomes 2.


Only if you completely ignore the sequence on pg 15.

Allocate a wound to a model
Take a save
Note unsaved wounds (still working with the pool here and doubling the blast wounds)
Allocate unsaved wounds & remove casualties.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:39:25


Post by: Kevin949


Just look at "The Shooting Sequence" on page 12, step 5.

Page 16 under "Fast Dice" puts the point home a little further that even in same save scenario's the wounds are still allocated one at a time.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:48:10


Post by: Lobokai


Gravmyr wrote:
Suffered is the key word in multiple rules to do with Wounds. The Swarm USR included. The reason I point it out yet again is that the wounds in the pool are not suffered. No matter how you look at it the only way to make it work is still how I have outlined or you are going to cause a contradiction at some point. By the FAQ statemetn quoted the unsaved Wounds on the wound pool have not been suffered.

Rigeld2 and I have pointed out multiple times that the second Wound doesn't just appear in thin air the first Wound having already been allocated becomes two on the model itself. lowering it's Wound characteristic by two. Then you check for ID. I still maintain that doubling them in the pool only works in your single save scenario how would it be handled if there was any other factor added in?


I agree that an IC changes the order of saves, suffering, allocation, etc. Never stated differently, in fact I 100% agree with you on that part.

RAW:

4 Str 6 blast wounds (unsaved) kills 8 T3 Swarm models

4 Str 6 blast wounds (unsaved) kills only 4 T3 Swarm models if an IC or any other different save model is in the unit


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 16:56:02


Post by: barnowl


 Lobukia wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
Suffered is the key word in multiple rules to do with Wounds. The Swarm USR included. The reason I point it out yet again is that the wounds in the pool are not suffered. No matter how you look at it the only way to make it work is still how I have outlined or you are going to cause a contradiction at some point. By the FAQ statemetn quoted the unsaved Wounds on the wound pool have not been suffered.

Rigeld2 and I have pointed out multiple times that the second Wound doesn't just appear in thin air the first Wound having already been allocated becomes two on the model itself. lowering it's Wound characteristic by two. Then you check for ID. I still maintain that doubling them in the pool only works in your single save scenario how would it be handled if there was any other factor added in?


I agree that an IC changes the order of saves, suffering, allocation, etc. Never stated differently, in fact I 100% agree with you on that part.

RAW:

4 Str 6 blast wounds (unsaved) kills 8 T3 Swarm models

4 Str 6 blast wounds (unsaved) kills only 4 T3 Swarm models if an IC or any other different save model is in the unit


Pretty much the same way I read it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kevin949 wrote:
Just look at "The Shooting Sequence" on page 12, step 5.

Page 16 under "Fast Dice" puts the point home a little further that even in same save scenario's the wounds are still allocated one at a time.


No one has argued against this point.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 17:06:25


Post by: sirlynchmob


Nothing changes for mixed units though. If you have a swarm unit with a IC in it the wounds to the swarm models still get doubled.

under mixed saves you'll note we're still allocating unsaved wounds from the pool.

So if the mixed unit gets hit with 4 str 6 blast wounds then you look at the closest model.

allocate a wound to a swarm base
take saves
note unsaved wounds in the pool
allocate unsaved wounds from the pool and 2 bases die.

or a swarm is allocated an unsaved wound, it doubles in the pool, the first unsaved wound is allocated to the swarm model and it dies, then IC takes the other unsaved wound from the pool.

If the IC is the closest model, it takes its saves and he'll be allocated any unsaved wounds until he's out of wounds. Then if there are still wounds in the pool, the next swarm model takes its saves, double, and allocate unsaved wounds.

So it comes down to who takes the save. If its a swarm model, the wounds double. if its the IC its just the one wound.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 18:02:49


Post by: Gravmyr


Once a Wound is allocated it is no longer in the pool that is the sticking point once the wound has been allocated it's not in a new pool called unsaved Wound pool. Wounds have to be allocated to the closest model so an IC in the middle does cause issues as it is not a Swarm per the rule the Wounds must be allocated to the closest model you can't jump the IC to allocate the Wound to another Swarm model. You are ignoring the Wound allocation rules to do that or you are ignoring the Saves rules to take a Wound the was created by the Swarm rule and impose it on a non-Swarm model. Either way requires you to ignore some part of the Wound allocation/Saves Set. The statement that they double in the pool remains unfounded. To have them double in the pool you are ignoring the allocation part of suffering a wound. Once the wound is allocated it is stuck with that model. Since the Wound is stuck on the model, when it it doubled they are both stuck on the model. Now where in the rule does it state that you treat a unit with mixed saves different from a unit with the same saves. It either applies to all the same or the game breaks.

Again it does not say you double in the pool. Not sure where Kevin949 was going for or against but as he pointed out the fast dice/same save is just a quick way to get the shooting phase over with. Once a wound has been allocated to a model show me where you are given permission to remove it from the model. There is only one allocation step not multiple. According to pg 15 you keep quoting you do not in fact allocate at the beginning, just once otherwise you are allocating half of the wounds twice. Once the wound is allocated it is no longer in the pool so can't be doubled in the pool.

Pg 12 Shows you the sequence and Fast Dice does in fact both illuminate that allocation happens once not twice.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 19:05:10


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
Once a Wound is allocated it is no longer in the pool that is the sticking point once the wound has been allocated it's not in a new pool called unsaved Wound pool. Wounds have to be allocated to the closest model so an IC in the middle does cause issues as it is not a Swarm per the rule the Wounds must be allocated to the closest model you can't jump the IC to allocate the Wound to another Swarm model. You are ignoring the Wound allocation rules to do that or you are ignoring the Saves rules to take a Wound the was created by the Swarm rule and impose it on a non-Swarm model. Either way requires you to ignore some part of the Wound allocation/Saves Set. The statement that they double in the pool remains unfounded. To have them double in the pool you are ignoring the allocation part of suffering a wound. Once the wound is allocated it is stuck with that model. Since the Wound is stuck on the model, when it it doubled they are both stuck on the model. Now where in the rule does it state that you treat a unit with mixed saves different from a unit with the same saves. It either applies to all the same or the game breaks.

Again it does not say you double in the pool. Not sure where Kevin949 was going for or against but as he pointed out the fast dice/same save is just a quick way to get the shooting phase over with. Once a wound has been allocated to a model show me where you are given permission to remove it from the model. There is only one allocation step not multiple. According to pg 15 you keep quoting you do not in fact allocate at the beginning, just once otherwise you are allocating half of the wounds twice. Once the wound is allocated it is no longer in the pool so can't be doubled in the pool.

Pg 12 Shows you the sequence and Fast Dice does in fact both illuminate that allocation happens once not twice.


there is NO allocating equals suffering! Re read the first paragraph on pg 15 "you will need to allocate the wounds caused and resolve..... "

The pool is the only logical place to double the wounds, hence the usage of the wound pool throughout the entire shooting process. It is just the one wound pool, but you start with wounds in the pool, then end up with unsaved wounds in the pool.

you allocate a wound to a model, from the pool, so it can make its save, pg 15, pg 16, & pg 17. You suffer the wound once you fail your saves pg 16 & pg 17. THEN you allocate the unsaved wounds from the pool, which removes an unsaved wound from the pool as it reduces a models wounds pg 15.

pg 15 is quite clear that taking saves and noting unsaved wounds, comes before allocating unsaved wounds. They are two different steps. You note the unsaved wounds caused in the wound pool.

swarm "each unsaved wound is multiplied to two unsaved wounds" and we have unsaved wounds in the pool waiting to be allocated.






Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 19:21:44


Post by: White Ninja


Wouldn't it be the case that you role the save assuming you get one and then assign the wounds one at a time to models in the unit until they die. So you assign one wound to your swarm the wound doubles and they then kill the model because of ID. Then you spend your next wound onto the next model. Since the swarm rule only effects each individual model that has it the extra wound would have no permission to be re allocated onto another model.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 19:47:00


Post by: Gravmyr


Please show me where there are two allocations on either page. Once and done. To take a save you must have allocated the per pg 12 and pg 16. You have still failed to show where allocation is done more then once and that you have permission to move the wound off a model once you have done so.

Pg 12 is quite clear in wound are allocated before saves are taken as does pg 16. There is only one allocation as more then myself have put forward Same Save pooling is a quick way to resolve a shooting attack.

You can easily multiply the unsaved wounds at the point of failing a save after allocation. There is not a single mention of the pool at all in the Swarm USR.

If allocation and failing a save does not equal suffering, when do you roll for a pinning test or when is concussive triggered? If Swarm is triggered at unsaved wounds entering the pool then the pinning would be taken immediately yes?

You can state that allocation does not equal suffering but can you back this up with any evidence? I have shown that unsaved Wounds in a pool do not equal suffering.

you allocate a wound to a model, from the pool, so it can make its save, pg 15, pg 16, & pg 17. You suffer the wound once you fail your saves pg 16 & pg 17. THEN you allocate the unsaved wounds from the pool, which removes an unsaved wound from the pool as it reduces a models wounds pg 15.


Sorry I see no mention of two allocations on pg 15, 16 or 17. I do see a single allocation mentioned in both Save types on pg 15, Armour Saves on pg 16, or Invulnerable Saves on pg 17. As well as the shooting sequence on pg 12, the Fast Dice method on pg 16 and wound allocation in CC on pg 25. Not one of those places says you allocate then make a save then allocate the unsaved wounds. As further proof both CC and Shooting state you continue allocating Wounds to the same model till the Wound pool is empty showing that an allocated Wound is removed from the Wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 20:16:51


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
Please you show me where there are two allocations on either page. Once and done. To take a save you must have allocated the per pg 12 and pg 16. You have still failed to show where allocation is done more then once and that you have permission to move the wound off a model once you have done so.


Pg 15 first paragraph "allocate the wound caused" pg 15 3rd paragraph, "allocate an unsaved wound" see two allocations, once for the wound, then again for the unsaved wound.

Gravmyr wrote:

Pg 12 is quite clear in wound are allocated before saves are taken as does pg 16. There is only one allocation as more then myself have put forward Same Save pooling is a quick way to resolve a shooting attack.

You can easily multiply the unsaved wounds at the point of failing a save after allocation. There is not a single mention of the pool at all in the Swarm USR.

If allocation and failing a save does not equal suffering, when do you roll for a pinning test or when is concussive triggered? If Swarm is triggered at unsaved wounds entering the pool then the pinning would be taken immediately yes?

You can state that allocation does not equal suffering but can you back this up with any evidence? I have shown that unsaved Wounds in a pool do not equal suffering.


you state that allocation equals suffering so you have to prove that statement. And we both know you can't. pg 16 clearly shows under armor saves that if you fail your save, you suffer the wound. Which happens on pg 15 under taking saving throws "make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused" Yes take the pinning test, and fnp, and any other thing that triggers with unsaved wounds at this time, while all the wounds are still in the pool.

you allocate a wound to a model, from the pool, so it can make its save, pg 15, pg 16, & pg 17. You suffer the wound once you fail your saves pg 16 & pg 17. THEN you allocate the unsaved wounds from the pool, which removes an unsaved wound from the pool as it reduces a models wounds pg 15.

Gravmyr wrote:
Sorry I see no mention of two allocations on pg 15, 16 or 17. I do see a single allocation mentioned in both Save types on pg 15, Armour Saves on pg 16, or Invulnerable Saves on pg 17. As well as the shooting sequence on pg 12, the Fast Dice method on pg 16 and wound allocation in CC on pg 25. Not once of those places says you allocate then make a save then allocate the unsaved wounds. As further proof both CC and Shooting state you continue allocating Wounds to the same model till the Wound pool is empty showing that an allocated Wound is removed from the Wound pool.


So I showed you again the two allocations, I mean come on, read pg 15 and the titles even read "allocate wounds" & "allocate unsaved wounds". I showed again how once you fail your save you've suffered the wound pg 16 & others. Then after noting all the unsaved wounds, you then start allocating them and removing models.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 20:51:29


Post by: Gravmyr


The first paragraph is an over view of the coming section covering exactly what is going to be done otherwise you get no saving throw as a unit does not have an armour save. Each model may have an Armour save and if they do the wounds are allocated then saves taken. You are taking a single over view, much like that of the first part of a research paper, and saying that it is indication that the steps would be done twice.

I see super heading of "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties" which refers to the entire section including two separate ways it is done, with an overview of what is going to be described. I then see multiple headings and subheadings splitting up those different ways and the steps contained within. In one section I see "Take Saving Throws" which tells you first of all, meaning step one is to take saving throws if the saves are the same. No mention of allocation. Then I see "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties", in which you allocate those unsaved Wounds. There are two sections after that which are irrelevant then The a Heading which separates those rules from those of the "Mixed Saves"

Again a single allocation. This is all short hand to speed the game up other wise you are going to take 3 hours to play the first Turn of a game.

If pg 16 clearly shows that failing your save is is suffering the wound then when can I make an Invulnerable Saving throw?
PG 17 Invulnerable Saves: Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound.....


So I can never take a Invulnerable save as I have to fail a Save to take an Invulnerable Save which, since I am only allowed to take one, can never happen.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:00:24


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
The first paragraph is an over view of the coming section covering exactly what is going to be done otherwise you get no saving throw as a unit does not have an armour save. Each model may have an Armour save and if they do the wounds are allocated then saves taken. You are taking a single over view, much like that of the first part of a research paper, and saying that it is indication that the steps would be done twice.

I see super heading of "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties" which refers to the entire section including two separate ways it is done, with an overview of what is going to be described. I then see multiple headings and subheadings splitting up those different ways and the steps contained within. In one section I see "Take Saving Throws" which tells you first of all, meaning step one is to take saving throws if the saves are the same. No mention of allocation. Then I see "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties", in which you allocate those unsaved Wounds. There are two sections after that which are irrelevant then The a Heading which separates those rules from those of the "Mixed Saves"

Again a single allocation. This is all short hand to speed the game up other wise you are going to take 3 hours to play the first Turn of a game.

If pg 16 clearly shows that failing your save is is suffering the wound then when can I make an Invulnerable Saving throw?
PG 17 Invulnerable Saves: Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound.....


So I can never take a Invulnerable save as I have to fail a Save to take an Invulnerable Save which, since I am only allowed to take one, can never happen.


Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:07:52


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.

Units can't suffer unsaved wounds. Only models can.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:13:13


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.

Units can't suffer unsaved wounds. Only models can.


the point is if I roll 8 wounds against your unit, your models in the unit are suffering 8 wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:17:52


Post by: rigeld2


Not until they're allocated.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:20:13


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.

Units can't suffer unsaved wounds. Only models can.
And units do not take saving throws, models do.

"First of all, the target unit gets to Make one saving throw, if it has one" P. 15 But this says the unit gets a save, what save value do we use, the unit does not have characteristics.

So Strict RAW you never get an armor save in a non mixed save unit because of P. 15

So either

1) Units can't suffer unsaved wounds, and can't take saving throws. (Strict RAW)
or
2) we let Units suffer unsaved wounds, and take saving throws. (RaW interpretation that does not break the game)

I choose 2 as 1 makes the game unplayable.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:24:17


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.

Units can't suffer unsaved wounds. Only models can.

2) we let Units suffer unsaved wounds, and take saving throws. (RaW interpretation that does not break the game)

And Swarm is still a model based rule and not unit based. So even if the unit is suffering unsaved wounds you have no permission to double before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:25:01


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Any wounds rolled against the unit and the unit is considered to be suffering those wounds. Again more proof for me that you actually suffer wounds and unsaved wounds before the final allocation to remove the models.

You suffer a wound, you roll your save, you've suffered an unsaved wound.

Units can't suffer unsaved wounds. Only models can.

2) we let Units suffer unsaved wounds, and take saving throws. (RaW interpretation that does not break the game)

And Swarm is still a model based rule and not unit based. So even if the unit is suffering unsaved wounds you have no permission to double before allocation.
So are armor saves, what is your point?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:28:25


Post by: rigeld2


My point is that you're allowing a unit to take Armor saves, but extending that to any model based ability will end up failing.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:29:12


Post by: Gravmyr


Or you can actually use the rules set forth on pg 12. I'm done here. To most people I think I've shown in more the required fashion that it works just fine the way rigeld2 and I have put forth. Continuing to argue that it breaks things when pg 12 tells you how to do it and pg 15 simply shows how to speed it up so that you create issues of your own making is.... I have the rules I need. Play it how you want. There is a single section being used by the doubled pool defenders and that is page 15 and only pg 15. I have pointed out that in at least four other areas the rules all agree.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:50:17


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
My point is that you're allowing a unit to take Armor saves, but extending that to any model based ability will end up failing.
and thus does not work for saves or for doubling of wounds, so we have to figure out the best way to play it. The intent seems to be that swarms are killed faster from templates and blast markers.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 21:53:23


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
My point is that you're allowing a unit to take Armor saves, but extending that to any model based ability will end up failing.
and thus does not work for saves or for doubling of wounds, so we have to figure out the best way to play it. The intent seems to be that swarms are killed faster from templates and blast markers.

Correct. And swarms are killed faster by templates and blasts.
Each wound by a T&B is doubled. This has no effect if its an ID wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:09:06


Post by: DeathReaper


That is not true, as the wounds are still doubled if it is a template or marker that inflicts ID.

The wounds are in the wound pool, a save is taken, you double the wound into two wounds then allocate the wounds to the models.

The wound is in the wound pool, if it becomes 2 wounds they are still in the wound pool by virtue of the first wound being in the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:18:30


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
That is not true, as the wounds are still doubled if it is a template or marker that inflicts ID.

So we've agreed that T&B kill swarms faster than "normal", right? How can you kill faster than ID?

The wounds are in the wound pool, a save is taken, you double the wound into two wounds then allocate the wounds to the models.

This has been shown to be incorrect.

The wound is in the wound pool, if it becomes 2 wounds they are still in the wound pool by virtue of the first wound being in the wound pool.

A wound must be allocated before it is doubled. If it is allocated it is no longer in the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:21:27


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
This has been shown to be incorrect.
It is not incorrect. you take a save and have an unsaved wound that is 2 unsaved wounds through doubling, then you apply one to a swarm he dies, and apply the next one to a swarm and he dies as well, since the wounds cause ID.

rigeld2 wrote:
A wound must be allocated before it is doubled. If it is allocated it is no longer in the wound pool.

Citation needed.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:27:56


Post by: rigeld2


Allocation must remove a wound from the pool - otherwise the pool would never empty, and once we have rules for an Emptied Wound Pool on page 15 we know that a normal shooting attack would empty the pool.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:34:39


Post by: DeathReaper


It also makes sense if the "Reduce that model's Wounds by 1." removes the wound from the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:36:52


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
Allocation must remove a wound from the pool - otherwise the pool would never empty, and once we have rules for an Emptied Wound Pool on page 15 we know that a normal shooting attack would empty the pool.



Then the swarm rule would say, when allocated an unsaved wound.

It doesn't.

You suffer unsaved wounds, and those unsaved wounds are in the pool until allocated. As the swarm has suffered unsaved blast wounds, they double in the pool,"each unsaved wound is multiplied by 2". Then you can allocated an unsaved wound, and remove one from the pool. So you allocate one ID wound and there is still one ID wound in the pool.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:50:20


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
It also makes sense if the "Reduce that model's Wounds by 1." removes the wound from the wound pool.

Except that would mean that in a mixed save unit the wound pool would not empty until you failed every save. Also, the 1st paragraph of the Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties section has a sentence, "Continue allocating unsaved Wounds ... until there are no more wounds left".
Clearly allocation depletes the wound pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Allocation must remove a wound from the pool - otherwise the pool would never empty, and once we have rules for an Emptied Wound Pool on page 15 we know that a normal shooting attack would empty the pool.


Then the swarm rule would say, when allocated an unsaved wound.

It doesn't.

You suffer unsaved wounds, and those unsaved wounds are in the pool until allocated. As the swarm has suffered unsaved blast wounds, they double in the pool,"each unsaved wound is multiplied by 2". Then you can allocated an unsaved wound, and remove one from the pool. So you allocate one ID wound and there is still one ID wound in the pool.

A Swarm cannot suffer unsaved wounds until they are allocated. Wounds in the pool have not been allocated


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:53:09


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It also makes sense if the "Reduce that model's Wounds by 1." removes the wound from the wound pool.

Except that would mean that in a mixed save unit the wound pool would not empty until you failed every save.
Or made every save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 22:57:35


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It also makes sense if the "Reduce that model's Wounds by 1." removes the wound from the wound pool.

Except that would mean that in a mixed save unit the wound pool would not empty until you failed every save.
Or made every save.

If your assertion is that the only way to deplete the wound pool is "Reduce that model's Wounds by 1." As you said above (ie - allocation does not deplete the pool) then making a save would have no effect on the pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 23:07:57


Post by: DeathReaper


Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

So you fail saves, the wounds are doubled, then you allocate.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 23:17:33


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units, the bolded is correct. The second half of the sentence is false. Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model.

Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

While that seems to support your statement, it is generally how armor saves are handled. Specifically, when it comes to shooting, a model cannot suffer a wound until it is allocated.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 23:23:17


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units, the bolded is correct. The second half of the sentence is false. Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model.
We were and are talking about same save units :-)
The second half of the sentence can not be false because the wound pool is populated after to wound rolls are made, but before saves are taken. Allocation is not the only way the wound pool becomes depletes.

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16
While that seems to support your statement, it is generally how armor saves are handled. Specifically, when it comes to shooting, a model cannot suffer a wound until it is allocated.
Citation needed, as the passage I quoted is within the rules for the shooting phase.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 23:31:48


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units, the bolded is correct. The second half of the sentence is false. Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model.
We were and are talking about same save units :-)
The second half of the sentence can not be false because the wound pool is populated after to wound rolls are made, but before saves are taken. Allocation is not the only way the wound pool becomes depletes.

You misread the line I italicized.
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.
"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16
While that seems to support your statement, it is generally how armor saves are handled. Specifically, when it comes to shooting, a model cannot suffer a wound until it is allocated.
Citation needed, as the passage I quoted is within the rules for the shooting phase.

It's within the rules for Armor Saves - the general rules. This happens to be explained in the Shooting Phase, but allocation and how to handle wounds is more specific.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2012/12/31 23:41:27


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units, the bolded is correct. The second half of the sentence is false. Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model.
We were and are talking about same save units :-)
The second half of the sentence can not be false because the wound pool is populated after to wound rolls are made, but before saves are taken. Allocation is not the only way the wound pool becomes depletes.

You misread the line I italicized.

No i did not, you said that "The second half of the sentence is false"

My sentence was " allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool."

Indeed allocation is not the only thing that depletes the wound pool. so the second half of the sentence is not false.

I agree that Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model, but it is not the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units the saves are made before allocation. Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

Therefore if you fail a save you suffer a wound, which in the case of swarms doubles that wound into two wounds. Then you allocate those wounds to the models.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 01:26:32


Post by: rigeld2


You keep citing that like the general rule for armor saves can override the specific rules for distributing wounds to a unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 02:59:57


Post by: Fragile


When you cause a wound, it creates a pool. There is nothing to say that a pool can only be created by the shooting. A pool can be created by the application of wounds to a unit. An unsaved wound doubles, thereby creating a new pool of wounds that would be applied to the unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 03:31:01


Post by: rigeld2


Fragile wrote:
When you cause a wound, it creates a pool. There is nothing to say that a pool can only be created by the shooting. A pool can be created by the application of wounds to a unit. An unsaved wound doubles, thereby creating a new pool of wounds that would be applied to the unit.

But the created wound isn't in a pool to begin with - its already on a model.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 06:53:14


Post by: Lord Krungharr


This is an important scenario to figure out properly in case my Heldrake every needs to erase some Canoptek Scarabs.

I haven't seen anyone cite the Swarms rule so here it is:

page 43 "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

In a case where my Baleflamer hits 4 Scarab bases in a unit of 8 Scarab bases, let's say I roll to cause 4 Wounds. There are now 4 Wounds in the Wound Pool.

Next the Scarabs gets to make one saving throw for each Wound being resolved. However, with the Baleflamer being AP3, the Scarabs get no saving throw. So there are 4 unsaved Wounds to be allocated.

Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the Scarab model closest to the firing Heldrake. Reduce that Scarab's Wounds by 1.

Next, two things happen immediately after that Scarab has been allocated the unsaved wound, It would have the unsaved Wound doubled to 2 Wounds upon it, and the first unsaved Wound would cause Instant Death.

The main question here is does the unit SUFFER the unsaved Wounds before they have been allocated to models closest to the firing Heldrake?

The answer is NO, the unsaved Wounds are not suffered until allocated to a model. It doesn't say anywhere on page 14 or 15 of the BRB that the unit suffers the unsaved Wounds before allocation.

The Swarms rule applies on a model basis, not a unit basis, The Swarms rule says the MODEL must SUFFER an unsaved Wound from a blast/template weapon for it to be doubled. We also know the Wound Pool is only created by Hits which roll successfully to Wound. Therefore any unsaved Wounds created by Swarms blast-doubling after the Wound Pool is created will not carry over to other models if the first multi-wound Scarab base is killed with Instant Death from a S6 Baleflamer.

I would love it to be the other way around, like with Scabiethrax's Blad of Decay, but unfortunately it's not that way (lucky for Necrons with Scarabs).


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 09:25:09


Post by: DeathReaper


 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The answer is NO, the unsaved Wounds are not suffered until allocated to a model. It doesn't say anywhere on page 14 or 15 of the BRB that the unit suffers the unsaved Wounds before allocation.
Incorrect. Reread Page 15 and 16.

You take saving throws before allocation on same save units. (P. 15 'Take Saving Throws' section).

Armor saves section says "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

So you do indeed suffer wounds before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 11:17:26


Post by: Tarrasq


 DeathReaper wrote:
Incorrect. Reread Page 15 and 16.

You take saving throws before allocation on same save units. (P. 15 'Take Saving Throws' section).

Armor saves section says "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

So you do indeed suffer wounds before allocation.


It does not however say that it suffers an "unsaved wound" only a Wound in the general sense. This part of the text is to demonstrate how the Armor Save roll works, in other words what passes and what fails. It contains fluff.

"Suffering an unsaved wound" is required for the Swarm rule and the Instant Death rule.

The Instant Death rule is another rule that requires "a model to suffer an unsaved wound". Instead of reducing the model's Wounds by one, it reduces a models Wounds to 0, this part can't happen until the wound has been allocated.

Basically the swarm rule really boils down to, instead of -1 to a Swarms Wounds, its -2 Wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 15:33:04


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The answer is NO, the unsaved Wounds are not suffered until allocated to a model. It doesn't say anywhere on page 14 or 15 of the BRB that the unit suffers the unsaved Wounds before allocation.
Incorrect. Reread Page 15 and 16.

You take saving throws before allocation on same save units. (P. 15 'Take Saving Throws' section).

Armor saves section says "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

So you do indeed suffer wounds before allocation.

General < Specific.
And since you haven't allocated to a model before allocation a Swarm has not suffered wounds yet, so you cannot double wounds before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 20:02:45


Post by: katfude


The rules are all about timing.

Eternal warrior activates upon an unsaved wound. So does the double rainbow effect of templates on swarms. They activate simultaneously, so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first. You also roll all saves at the same time in a non-mixed unit, so all wounds are rolled simultaneously, unless they are mixed str and ap value shots, which the shooting player chooses which set of shots hit and resolve first.

There are 4 scarab bases. I wound 3 with baleflamer hits. I choose ID to apply first. I kill 3 models.

If I chose double wounds, I would have 6 wounds, and each base has 3 wounds. I kill 2 bases, with no spill-over to the other 2 bases, so ID applies to no model. I kill only 2 bases.

I hit and wound with a bolter and 3 wounds from a baleflamer. I apply the bolter first, remove 1 wound, double the wounds to 6 first, then apply instant death. 1 wound spills over to the other base and I kill 3 scarabs. Had I applied instant death first, the same amount of models would have died, because the bolter left 2 wounds open for ID to stick to.


In a mixed unit, it's more complex. You must allocate wounds on a model-by-model basis. You would have to roll each save separately, and then upon a failure, resolve the double wound/ID order, which would mean that either order would do nothing for you in my example.

4 scarab bases and 1 lord attached. Scarabs are up front, but the unit is mixed. I can, therefore, assign wounds on a model-by-model basis, RAW.

"First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit." If there is no save or a failed save, then you choose to apply the template or the ID effect first, MODEL-BY-MODEL per RAW. I can elect to use the fast dice rule as the defender. "You can instead allocate them in groups equal to however many models with the same, best save are nearest to the firing unit."

3 scarabs, 1 lord w/ phase shifter. 4 baleflamer wounds. I apply 3 wounds only, per mixed saves.

If shooter doubles first: 6 wounds, 2 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer wound to other scarab base. Lord takes no wound.

If shooter IDs first: 3 ID wounds, 3 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer to the lord.

Work complete!


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 20:12:15


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The answer is NO, the unsaved Wounds are not suffered until allocated to a model. It doesn't say anywhere on page 14 or 15 of the BRB that the unit suffers the unsaved Wounds before allocation.
Incorrect. Reread Page 15 and 16.

You take saving throws before allocation on same save units. (P. 15 'Take Saving Throws' section).

Armor saves section says "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

So you do indeed suffer wounds before allocation.

General < Specific.
And since you haven't allocated to a model before allocation a Swarm has not suffered wounds yet, so you cannot double wounds before allocation.
But where do the armor saves come from?

They must come from the models that are going to be allocated the wounds after saves are attempted.

Why are you allowing saves before allocation, when saves are a model rule and not a unit rule, but not allowing doubling of said wounds when Swarm is a model rule and not a unit rule? It is inconsistent.

If you allow saves before allocation you have to allow doubling before allocation.

If you do not allow doubling before allocation you can not allow saves before allocation, and that breaks the rule that tells us to take saves before allocation.

Clearly if they all have the same save, "The unit" has an armor save of 4+ and all models have the swarm rule so if you allow armor saves you have to allow the swarm rule as well.




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 21:39:52


Post by: rigeld2


I'm allowing armor saves because the same save rules require it.
Can you cite a rule requiring all model based rules to apply to a unit? I haven't seen one.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 22:21:43


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
I'm allowing armor saves because the same save rules require it.
Can you cite a rule requiring all model based rules to apply to a unit? I haven't seen one.
Consistency.

If you allow units to take armor saves, you have to allow units with the swarm rule to double wounds at the time unsaved wounds are suffered.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/01 22:29:36


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
I'm allowing armor saves because the same save rules require it.
Can you cite a rule requiring all model based rules to apply to a unit? I haven't seen one.
Consistency.

If you allow units to take armor saves, you have to allow units with the swarm rule to double wounds at the time unsaved wounds are suffered.

I'm allowing it because that's how the same save rules demand it. Cite the rule requiring model based rules to apply to the unit level.
You've cited a general over a more specific one. Even when corrected.
You're trying to apply a model based rule at the unit level - this is demonstrably incorrect.
The Wound Pool cannot ever be model based, and therefore applying model based rules to it cannot be correct.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 00:37:01


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the saves are made before allocation so allocation can not be the only thing that depletes the wound pool.

In same save units, the bolded is correct. The second half of the sentence is false. Allocation is the only way a Wound moves from the pool to a model.

Failing an armor save is what makes you suffer a wound.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

While that seems to support your statement, it is generally how armor saves are handled. Specifically, when it comes to shooting, a model cannot suffer a wound until it is allocated.


Citation please. where does suffer equate to allocate?

The swarm rule never states to double allocated wounds. It states to double unsaved wounds. You have unsaved wounds from swarm models that failed their saves in the wound pool as soon as they fail their saves. You make all your saves at the same time before you allocate any wounds.

See that, your swarm models failed their saves against blast weapons. The wounds are still in the pool because we haven't got to allocating and removing casualties yet.

Those unsaved wounds get doubled in the pool.

Now you go on to the allocating wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 00:44:48


Post by: rigeld2


You're applying a model's rule to something happening to the unit (the Wound Pool). You have no permission to double anything until a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound (which is what the Swarm rule actually says, not what you incorrectly cited above).

Show how a model can suffer a wound before allocation. I've waited for that this whole thread and not a single person has shown that.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 01:05:45


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
You're applying a model's rule to something happening to the unit (the Wound Pool). You have no permission to double anything until a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound (which is what the Swarm rule actually says, not what you incorrectly cited above).

Show how a model can suffer a wound before allocation. I've waited for that this whole thread and not a single person has shown that.


The swarm models are suffering wounds for each failed save.

note on pg 15 "make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

Now what do you think this is for? clearly this is where you look at all the wounds caused and handle any actions that trigger on unsaved wounds.

Hey look a swarm model suffered a wound, a swarm model failed its save and is now suffering an unsaved wound. (pg 16 the armor fails ... and it suffers a wound) So at this point in time a swarm model fails its save it is suffering an unsaved wound.

so again on pg 15 noting how many unsaved wounds have been caused we note they were caused by a blast template and double the wounds.

Next part on pg 15 leads to allocating those unsaved wounds. Clearly the swarm models have unsaved wounds which we can now begin to allocate.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 01:11:21


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You're applying a model's rule to something happening to the unit (the Wound Pool). You have no permission to double anything until a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound (which is what the Swarm rule actually says, not what you incorrectly cited above).

Show how a model can suffer a wound before allocation. I've waited for that this whole thread and not a single person has shown that.


The swarm models are suffering wounds for each failed save.

note on pg 15 "make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

Now what do you think this is for? clearly this is where you look at all the wounds caused and handle any actions that trigger on unsaved wounds.

No, this is simply the number of wounds that will be allocated. According to you, Feel No Pain would also occur prior to allocation which we know is false.

Hey look a swarm model suffered a wound, a swarm model failed its save and is now suffering an unsaved wound. (pg 16 the armor fails ... and it suffers a wound) So at this point in time a swarm model fails its save it is suffering an unsaved wound.

Hey, look! You're making the same mistake DeathReaper did! You're trying to use the general Armor Save rules instead of the specific Wound Allocation rules.

Next part on pg 15 leads to allocating those unsaved wounds. Clearly the swarm models have unsaved wounds which we can now begin to allocate.

A model cannot suffer a wound prior to it being allocated. Until they're allocated, Wounds are in the Wound Pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 01:40:00


Post by: Gravmyr


I would like to point out that if you double the unsaved wounds in the wound pool because of a rule then you also have to apply all rules like this.

Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness Value or greater, it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a casualty.

Concussive: A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.


If you apply both of those rules like you are applying the Swarm USR the entire unit is removed by ID and the entire unit is now Initiative 1 in the case of Concussive.... Is this how you think it should run?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 01:47:13


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You're applying a model's rule to something happening to the unit (the Wound Pool). You have no permission to double anything until a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound (which is what the Swarm rule actually says, not what you incorrectly cited above).

Show how a model can suffer a wound before allocation. I've waited for that this whole thread and not a single person has shown that.


The swarm models are suffering wounds for each failed save.

note on pg 15 "make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

Now what do you think this is for? clearly this is where you look at all the wounds caused and handle any actions that trigger on unsaved wounds.

No, this is simply the number of wounds that will be allocated. According to you, Feel No Pain would also occur prior to allocation which we know is false.

Hey look a swarm model suffered a wound, a swarm model failed its save and is now suffering an unsaved wound. (pg 16 the armor fails ... and it suffers a wound) So at this point in time a swarm model fails its save it is suffering an unsaved wound.

Hey, look! You're making the same mistake DeathReaper did! You're trying to use the general Armor Save rules instead of the specific Wound Allocation rules.

Next part on pg 15 leads to allocating those unsaved wounds. Clearly the swarm models have unsaved wounds which we can now begin to allocate.

A model cannot suffer a wound prior to it being allocated. Until they're allocated, Wounds are in the Wound Pool.


so you continuously claim, but where's your proof? you can assert all you want that suffering = allocating but we both know you can't prove that, and its never even hinted at in the rules. You also keep ignoring that you allocate a blast wound to a model with the swarm rule so it can make its save. You can see on pg 17 under invuln saves, the model is considered to be suffering a wound before it makes its invuln save. We see under many USR's that models and units will be suffering from unsaved wounds after failing their saves. And all of that is before we even start reducing wounds.

FNP would occur where I showed it would. The wound has already been allocated to a model with FNP, it fails its save and now is suffering an unsaved wound. We noted the unsaved wound and that the model has FNP. He rolls FNP to negate that unsaved wound. Once you get to the step to allocate the unsaved wounds you are reducing a models wounds by 1.

If you allocate a wound to a model then that model is suffering that wound. if it fails its save its now suffering an unsaved wound. We note all the unsaved wounds before we start allocating them. The wounds are allocated at the start of the process on pg 15, but the wounds stay in the pool until we get to the step to start allocating the unsaved wounds. And as you agree about noting the unsaved wounds, it is the number of wounds to be allocated, so 3 blast wounds suffered, 3 failed saved from models with swarm, and we are noting 3 unsaved blast wounds. That triggers their swarm rule and those get doubled to 6 wounds. Then we move on to allocating those unsaved wounds and reducing wounds.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 01:58:16


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
The wounds are allocated at the start of the process on pg 15, but the wounds stay in the pool until we get to the step to start allocating the unsaved wounds. And as you agree about noting the unsaved wounds, it is the number of wounds to be allocated, so 3 blast wounds suffered, 3 failed saved from models with swarm, and we are noting 3 unsaved blast wounds. That triggers their swarm rule and those get doubled to 6 wounds. Then we move on to allocating those unsaved wounds and reducing wounds.

Absolutely ridiculous and false.
Wounds are not allocated until after saves are rolled, per page 15 (for same save units). You note how many unsaved wounds there are, and then allocate them.

Without allocating, how do you know if a model (remember, not unit which is where the Wound Pool is) has the Swarm SR?
If you're asserting that "unsaved wound" effects happen prior to allocation, then FNP would also occur prior to allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 02:34:25


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
The wounds are allocated at the start of the process on pg 15, but the wounds stay in the pool until we get to the step to start allocating the unsaved wounds. And as you agree about noting the unsaved wounds, it is the number of wounds to be allocated, so 3 blast wounds suffered, 3 failed saved from models with swarm, and we are noting 3 unsaved blast wounds. That triggers their swarm rule and those get doubled to 6 wounds. Then we move on to allocating those unsaved wounds and reducing wounds.

Absolutely ridiculous and false.
Wounds are not allocated until after saves are rolled, per page 15 (for same save units). You note how many unsaved wounds there are, and then allocate them.

Without allocating, how do you know if a model (remember, not unit which is where the Wound Pool is) has the Swarm SR?
If you're asserting that "unsaved wound" effects happen prior to allocation, then FNP would also occur prior to allocation.


I don't know where you make this stuff up from.

Did a model with swarm fail a save for a blast weapon?

the wound pool has nothing specifically to do with units. its just the number of wounds and types of wounds caused. ie 3 str 6 blast wounds are in the pool

Yes FNP happens prior to unsaved allocation, because if you make your FNP roll there is no longer an unsaved wound to allocate. (remember, allocating an unsaved wounds reduces the models wounds by 1)

so at the start of pg 15 we allocate the wounds caused and resolve any saving throw the target is allowed. unit's don't have a save value, but the models in the unit do.

Then the models in the unit will make their saves.

note all the unsaved wounds caused. this is where you need to take your blinders off. we are noting unsaved blast wounds models with swarm are suffering, they suffer a wound, they fail their save, they are now suffering an unsaved wound. the noting of unsaved wounds clearly implies the wounds are still in the wound pool. having unsaved wounds being suffered caused by blast weapons leads them to be doubled. As soon as they are unsaved wounds they get doubled.

now we allocate AN unsaved wound to a swarm model.








Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 02:51:17


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
Did a model with swarm fail a save for a blast weapon?

No.

the wound pool has nothing specifically to do with units. its just the number of wounds and types of wounds caused. ie 3 str 6 blast wounds are in the pool

It's the number of wounds the unit has received.

Yes FNP happens prior to unsaved allocation, because if you make your FNP roll there is no longer an unsaved wound to allocate. (remember, allocating an unsaved wounds reduces the models wounds by 1)

And you've just broken the rules. Congrats!

so at the start of pg 15 we allocate the wounds caused and resolve any saving throw the target is allowed. unit's don't have a save value, but the models in the unit do.

Is that how you read it? Because I see taking saves before allocation.

note all the unsaved wounds caused. this is where you need to take your blinders off. we are noting unsaved blast wounds models with swarm are suffering, they suffer a wound, they fail their save, they are now suffering an unsaved wound. the noting of unsaved wounds clearly implies the wounds are still in the wound pool. having unsaved wounds being suffered caused by blast weapons leads them to be doubled. As soon as they are unsaved wounds they get doubled.

They haven't been allocated at the point you read "take note". Thats the next step.
Since the wounds have not been allocated and a model cannot take a wound during this time without it having allocated, a Swarm did not take a wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 03:13:01


Post by: sirlynchmob


I have not broken the rules with FNP, you just think that because of the way you are changing the rules.

and again the wound pool does not anywhere reference unit.

who takes the saves before you allocate? the unit? what is the save for a unit? or do the models in the unit make the saves? because the models have a save characteristic.

Yes the unsaved wounds have not been allocated yet, that's why the wounds double, the swarm has suffered unsaved wounds. because models with swarm have failed their saves. They suffered a wound, they failed their save, they suffered unsaved wounds (triggering swarm)

Plus you are just assuming a swarm means a single model. Where a swarm can just as easily and more likely mean the entire unit as they all have the swarm rule. You don't have 6 swarms in a swarm, there is just a swarm.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 03:28:31


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
who takes the saves before you allocate? the unit? what is the save for a unit? or do the models in the unit make the saves? because the models have a save characteristic.

Yes, the unit does - because that's what the same save process says.

Yes the unsaved wounds have not been allocated yet, that's why the wounds double, the swarm has suffered unsaved wounds. because models with swarm have failed their saves. They suffered a wound, they failed their save, they suffered unsaved wounds (triggering swarm)

If the unsaved wounds have not been allocated, how has the swarm taken a wound?

Plus you are just assuming a swarm means a single model. Where a swarm can just as easily and more likely mean the entire unit as they all have the swarm rule. You don't have 6 swarms in a swarm, there is just a swarm.

No, models have the rule. Look at the army list entry for Rippers or Scarabs.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 06:16:23


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
Without allocating, how do you know if a model (remember, not unit which is where the Wound Pool is) has the Swarm SR?
Because all models in the unit have the Swarm USR, just like all models in the unit have the same armor save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 06:30:24


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Without allocating, how do you know if a model (remember, not unit which is where the Wound Pool is) has the Swarm SR?
Because all models in the unit have the Swarm USR, just like all models in the unit have the same armor save.

While I believe that will be true for all current Swarm units, you cannot guarantee that fact.
Simply making the assumption is not the right way to treat the rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 06:59:21


Post by: DeathReaper


No assumption needed.

Do all models in the ripper swarm have the same armor save and the Swarm rule?

Yes? then you double wounds after saves then allocate.

If a different, previously non-existent, unit does not have the swarm rule on every model, then you need to do it differently.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 07:13:41


Post by: Fragile


Add an IC to that formula.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 07:17:29


Post by: DeathReaper


Fragile wrote:
Add an IC to that formula.
Read the whole thread, we were talking about a non mixed saves unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 13:06:03


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
No assumption needed.

Do all models in the ripper swarm have the same armor save and the Swarm rule?

Yes? then you double wounds after saves then allocate.

If a different, previously non-existent, unit does not have the swarm rule on every model, then you need to do it differently.

Which means its an assumption.
What rule is giving you permission to change the Wound Pool without causing a Swarm to suffer an unsaved wound? Or are you also going to apply ID and FNP at the Wound Pool level as well?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 14:32:12


Post by: nosferatu1001


 DeathReaper wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Add an IC to that formula.
Read the whole thread, we were talking about a non mixed saves unit.


Yet you have come up witha mechanic that cannot work with a mixed save unit - it must radically change, becoming incredibly inconsistent. Does that seem at all correct to you?

There is one consistent approach that does not alter based on unit composition, and that is Rigelds


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 16:15:59


Post by: Luide


nosferatu1001 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Fragile wrote:
Add an IC to that formula.
Read the whole thread, we were talking about a non mixed saves unit.
Yet you have come up with a mechanic that cannot work with a mixed save unit - it must radically change, becoming incredibly inconsistent. Does that seem at all correct to you?
Considering how radically the whole Wounding process changes when moving to mixed save / character unit, I'd say it is artifact of the mixed save system. Remember that even FNP had to be Errata'd to use mixed save because of the wonkyness it could cause in normal units. Note that same was true for LOS! before errata too: It radically changed in mixed save unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is one consistent approach that does not alter based on unit composition, and that is Rigelds
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Personally, I think it is pretty likely GW will FAQ this same way as it was in 5e: Remove two models for each ID wound caused by blast/template. But because my armies don't have swarms, HIWPI is only single model removed per unsaved wound suffered.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 16:57:54


Post by: rigeld2


Luide wrote:
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Models in a same save unit do not suffer a wound after the unit fails an armor save. If that was the case a single ID wound would remove the entire unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:02:18


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
Luide wrote:
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Models in a same save unit do not suffer a wound after the unit fails an armor save. If that was the case a single ID wound would remove the entire unit.

The underlined is incorrect as per the rules on P. 16


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:04:51


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Luide wrote:
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Models in a same save unit do not suffer a wound after the unit fails an armor save. If that was the case a single ID wound would remove the entire unit.

The underlined is incorrect as per the rules on P. 16

And the rules on page 16 are less specific than the wound allocation rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:07:44


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Luide wrote:
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Models in a same save unit do not suffer a wound after the unit fails an armor save. If that was the case a single ID wound would remove the entire unit.

The underlined is incorrect as per the rules on P. 16

And the rules on page 16 are less specific than the wound allocation rules.
Which does not matter, as the wound allocation rules do not say anything about suffering wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:13:23


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Luide wrote:
Rigelds approach is consistent, but is it RAW? That is the real question, of which answer I'm not 100% sure. But it does look like the DR is correct that "suffers a wound" happens after making armor save. Which happens at completely different step of the process in same save unit vs mixed save unit.

Models in a same save unit do not suffer a wound after the unit fails an armor save. If that was the case a single ID wound would remove the entire unit.

The underlined is incorrect as per the rules on P. 16

And the rules on page 16 are less specific than the wound allocation rules.
Which does not matter, as the wound allocation rules do not say anything about suffering wounds.

How does a model suffer wounds prior to any wound being allocated to a model?

The only way for a model to suffer unsaved wounds in the wound allocation process is to have one allocated.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:19:35


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

And the rules on page 16 are less specific than the wound allocation rules.
Which does not matter, as the wound allocation rules do not say anything about suffering wounds.

How does a model suffer wounds prior to any wound being allocated to a model?

The only way for a model to suffer unsaved wounds in the wound allocation process is to have one allocated.
Not true, as the armor save rules tell us that after a failed save is when you suffer an unsaved wound.

Units do not have armor save value's so the value we have to use is from the models in the unit. Since we are rolling and failing the armor save common to every model in the unit and If those models in the unit have the swarm rule then we double the wounds if they came from a blast marker or template weapon after saves but before allocation.

They suffer the wounds because we failed their armor save, and all the armor saves were the same. if they all have the swarm rule we double the wounds before allocation as well.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 17:52:22


Post by: Lungpickle


Im going to side with the fellas that say the wound is doubled after it has become unsaved and is not re-entered to the wound pool but allpied to the model that failed the save.
Its funny when you re-read some thing and relize you have been playing it wrong its quite frustrating. Do we know what the intention of this rule is? "NO" under the current written explanation its pretty clear. Though the reason is to make swarms more vulnerable to templates the wording done in fact make them a little more tolleraable to template fire. I dont know of any high toughness swarms that this wound be detrimental too except nurglings.

Little help here for sure most of the swarms are tough 2 IIRC.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/02 23:52:43


Post by: Gravmyr


pg 16 Also states that the wound is allocated before the save can be taken. You are ignoring that in 5 places it tells you that wounds are allocated first because in a single area, to save time you save first. Your method of doubling in the wound pool can only be applied in this single instance and causes more inconsistencies then the other method set forth.

You keep equating unit with model. This only works if the unit is made up of a single model, at best you could equate it with Models. Using a USR for a model at the unit level is an inconsistency in itself. All USR's that apply to a unit use the terminology unit or a unit with at least one model...

The Same Save method also never uses the suffered terminology, you are getting that exclusively from the save section, where it states the model suffers an unsaved wound. The best that you could claim would be that an USR that requires an Unsaved wound to be suffered is not triggered when the Same Save method is used as the wounds are not suffered by the model just the unit then allocated. You are claiming instead that a single rule is triggered when the unit fails it's Saves but not all other rules or all models would be killed via ID in the Swarm we are talking about.

@Luide LOS was changed by the FAQ due to people not understanding how it works. The rule itself took into account allocation of Wounds via both methods yet people assumed that the could take saves for the IC then LOS the failed saves to other models. LOS only worked at the point of allocation of the Wound or Unsaved wound not after you allocated it to the IC then failed. This also brought about the change to methods of rolling saves for any unit with a Character to mixed saves at all times.

@Lungpickle The Swarm USR does make swarms more vulnerable as only ~6 of the 22 template weapons in the BRB are Str 6+. It appears most if not all the swarms are Toughness 3 doubling the number of wounds on ~16 of the weapons, those Str 1-5.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 03:01:02


Post by: -Nazdreg-


Not true, as the armor save rules tell us that after a failed save is when you suffer an unsaved wound.


Who is you? The unit... And because of that, the wound it isnt doubled since no specific swarm model has suffered a wound yet. It is doubled after allocation, because you need to define a specific model suffering the wound (allocate...) before it can suffer the wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 03:28:37


Post by: Tarrasq


You can run into same save issues if you use Death Reapers interpretation with current models as well. All you need to have is a blast/template that denies armor saves to a unit of swarms (scarabs) and an IC (destroyer lord). Using the Death Reaper method the Destroyer Lord would take extra wounds just because he's in the same unit as scarabs.

Also according to Death Reaper, you can only suffer wounds if you fail an armor save, therefore swarms only double their wounds (or units can roll for FNP) taken if they take armor saves. Otherwise they would never suffer an unsaved wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 06:33:11


Post by: DeathReaper


 Tarrasq wrote:
You can run into same save issues if you use Death Reapers interpretation with current models as well. All you need to have is a blast/template that denies armor saves to a unit of swarms (scarabs) and an IC (destroyer lord). Using the Death Reaper method the Destroyer Lord would take extra wounds just because he's in the same unit as scarabs.

Not true, as the presence of a character makes the unit a mixed save unit.

it is not the same procedure as the same save unit.

In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.
 Tarrasq wrote:
Also according to Death Reaper, you can only suffer wounds if you fail an armor save, therefore swarms only double their wounds (or units can roll for FNP) taken if they take armor saves. Otherwise they would never suffer an unsaved wound.
I never said that.

If you fail an armor save you suffer an unsaved wound (As per P.15) is what I said.

If you do not have a save you skip the roll armor saves step. P.15 tells you that you suffer an unsaved wound as you try to take the armor save, and automatically fail because the save value is - and the result of the die will always be lower than that. Therefore you take an unsaved wound since you failed your armor save.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 15 a 6 is always lower than a SV - so you will never make an armor save with a unit that has SV - listed as its armor save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 07:11:53


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 15:41:15


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.


Since you still have no real argument for not doubling the wounds, you're now resorting to the slippery slope arguments? Nice, this is why I'm sure you're on the wrong end of this.

But since you started us down this road how about you address that since you think suffers=lose 1 wound

then you break invuln saves, because you never suffer a wound to save against.
Units don't have saves so the whole unit takes every wound.
FNP stops working because if you've already lost the wound there's no wound to save against.
in a mixed unit, you probably would also claim that even though swarm doubles the wounds, you still only lose 1 wound, because pg 15 says you "reduce that model's wounds by 1.

A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool
you take your armor save against it.
we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool.
Now we allocate that one str 6 unsaved wound to the model, which based on the model may or may not cause ID. Because this is the step we reduce wounds.

for a swarm though
A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool
you take your armor save against it. You used a swarm models save characteristic.
we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool. Swarm triggers on unsaved wounds, they double here at first mention of unsaved wounds.
Now we allocate one unsaved str 6 wound to the closest model, which based on the model may or may not cause ID. leaving 1 str 6 unsaved wound in the pool to be allocated to the closest model.

Even with a mixed save unit A lot of stuff happens between "if it fails" and "reduce the models wounds by 1." That comma is where the model now has a unsaved wound, for any unsaved wound effects to occur. ie FNP, swarm, etc. it is in that comma that the wound would get doubled creating 2 unsaved wounds. so you now have the 1 wound with a extra wound being created which is floating at this point. We finish the sentence by reducing the model's wounds by 1 which causes ID then we still have a duplicate wound to resolve. So we move on to the next paragraph

"continue allocating wounds ..", taking saves (the wound has already been saved against, its already an unsaved wound) so you reduce the next models wounds by 1 which causes ID.




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 15:48:50


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.
No, in that case you fail the save, double the one wound to two wounds, then allocate two wounds, and 2 bases die, no more than that.

Why would the whole unit die from one doubled wound?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 16:40:03


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.
No, in that case you fail the save, double the one wound to two wounds, then allocate two wounds, and 2 bases die, no more than that.

Why would the whole unit die from one doubled wound?

Because you're applying the wound to the models (so you can double it).
Why are you being inconsistent?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 16:45:57


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


This Post has been rescinded for a much more clarified post later in the topic. Please Refer to the later post, and I happily retract my statement that you have to take wounds to models under the template. Loopholes have been detected, so have fun.

Unyielding Hunger


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 16:50:33


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
In a same save unit you populate the wound pool. then the unit takes a saving throw. any failed save are wounds suffered by the models in the unit, which all have the swarm rule, so the wounds will double at this point.

A single STR 6 weapon hits a Ripper unit. According to you, the unit fails its save and then the entire unit is wiped out.


Since you still have no real argument for not doubling the wounds, you're now resorting to the slippery slope arguments? Nice, this is why I'm sure you're on the wrong end of this.

No real argument? I'm sorry, is there a post of yours I didn't respond to?
Please don't insult me.

But since you started us down this road how about you address that since you think suffers=lose 1 wound

then you break invuln saves, because you never suffer a wound to save against.

RAW they're broken already, yes. We came to that conclusion earlier in the thread. Have you read it?
Units don't have saves so the whole unit takes every wound.

That would be true except that the rules give the unit a save by having you check each model to see if they're the same save, and then allowing you to roll that.
FNP stops working because if you've already lost the wound there's no wound to save against.

FNP isn't a save.
in a mixed unit, you probably would also claim that even though swarm doubles the wounds, you still only lose 1 wound, because pg 15 says you "reduce that model's wounds by 1.

Please don't pretend to assume what I would argue. This is a lie, I'd never say that.

A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool

Which isn't on a model yet.
you take your armor save against it.

Still not on a model.
we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool.
Now we allocate that one str 6 unsaved wound to the model, which based on the model may or may not cause ID. Because this is the step we reduce wounds.

Correct, the ID isn't determined until you allocate the wound.

for a swarm though
A single str 6 wound caused ends up in the wound pool
you take your armor save against it. You used a swarm models save characteristic.

Correct but irrelevant.
we now note you have a str 6 unsaved wound in the wound pool. Swarm triggers on unsaved wounds, they double here at first mention of unsaved wounds.

Absolutely false. Which means any assumptions after this point cannot be true. Perhaps you'd like to apply the actual rules instead of your incorrect reading?

Even with a mixed save unit A lot of stuff happens between "if it fails" and "reduce the models wounds by 1." That comma is where the model now has a unsaved wound, for any unsaved wound effects to occur. ie FNP, swarm, etc. it is in that comma that the wound would get doubled creating 2 unsaved wounds. so you now have the 1 wound with a extra wound being created which is floating at this point. We finish the sentence by reducing the model's wounds by 1 which causes ID then we still have a duplicate wound to resolve. So we move on to the next paragraph

So you've allocated a wound. It doubles. Where is your permission to move it back to the wound pool?

"continue allocating wounds ..", taking saves (the wound has already been saved against, its already an unsaved wound) so you reduce the next models wounds by 1 which causes ID.

So in a mixed unit, according to you, a S6 AP6 blast that causes 3 wounds would kill 3 bases and deliver 3 unsaveable wounds to the attached IC? (Assuming a unit of 3 Rippers and a Tyranid Prime)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps if you were less conceited you'd be correct.
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you've failed to use?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 16:59:43


Post by: Fragile


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Ok guys, I have come to save this thread, but before I do, I would like to make some important notes. For those that have championed the fact that you shouldn't be killing 8 Ripper Swams, I thank you. However, you guys have spent far too long looking at the wrong section, and for that, shame on you.

For those that insist that you can kill 8 models, I am sorry to inform you that you guys are wrong.

To the Original Poster, I have come to solve this important question in 1 post, that when done, should completely kill this thread because there is no way to refute simple logic, which is how I plan to solve this. So, without further ado, may I present the 100% answer that no one can deny.

The Scenario: A swarm of 9 Ripper Swarms has been hit by a Strength 6 Armor Penetration 2 Blast Template. 4 of the Ripper Swarms fall under the template.

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.
3. Each Ripper Swarm has simultaneous checks for Armor Saves, which auto-fail from Armor Penetration.
4. Each Ripper Swarm suffers a Wound, which is immediately doubled from the Swarms rule.
5. Each Ripper Swarm suffers the first wound, which immediately makes a check for Instant Death, which it fails, and immediately dies.
6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast Template, and Wounds dealt from a Blast Template cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast Template.
7. Game continues on.

I must say, I am dissapointed in this thread. No one ever thought to challenge this shouting match with the simple rules of a Blast Template. Instead of fighting over wording, you should have simply gone back to the beginning of the problem. Remember, the effect of any problem is determined by the cause. In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

Unyielding Hunger


Perhaps you should explain your number 6 and cite rules to back it up.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:08:50


Post by: rigeld2


Fragile wrote:
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast Template, and Wounds dealt from a Blast Template cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast Template.


Perhaps you should explain your number 6 and cite rules to back it up.

I completely missed that - stopped reading when he got step 2 wrong.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:10:28


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.

Pg 15, right hand side. Allocate Wounds down to Emptied Wound Pool.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you used?


Fixed that for you. Read the rules. The initial wounds were allocated to the wounds pool from the shot. The extra wounds given by Swarms are never given to the wounds pool, therefore they cannot be reallocated. 4 wounds were caused by the shot, and those are the only wounds given to the wounds pool.

And modified original post to be more clear.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:17:01


Post by: DeathReaper


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
For those that insist that you can kill 8 models, I am sorry to inform you that you guys are wrong.

If your premise was correct, then you would be correct, but your premise falls apart. See below for more info.
To the Original Poster, I have come to solve this important question in 1 post, that when done, should completely kill this thread because there is no way to refute simple logic, which is how I plan to solve this. So, without further ado, may I present the 100% answer that no one can deny.

The Scenario: A swarm of 9 Ripper Swarms has been hit by a Strength 6 Armor Penetration 2 Blast Template Marker. 4 of the Ripper Swarms fall under the Template Marker.

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

This is where you are incorrect (#2). Read P.15 the wounds are not allocated until after saves are made. So Denied.
6. 4 extra Wounds that were allocated to the Rippers Swarms immediately go away, due to the fact that these Wounds were issued from a Blast Template Marker, and Wounds dealt from a Blast Template Marker cannot be issued to Models that were not initially affected by the Blast Template Marker.


This is incorrect as well. Any model in the unit can be allocated the wound even if they were not under the blast marker. If it was not barrage you must remove the closest model to the firing unit first even if it was not under the Blast Marker. See the remove casualties section on P. 15 for more details.

Also Blast Marker, not Template. The Template is the teardrop shaped Template they use for flamer weapons.
7. Game continues on.

I must say, I am dissapointed in this thread. No one ever thought to challenge this shouting match with the simple rules of a Blast Template Marker. Instead of fighting over wording, you should have simply gone back to the beginning of the problem. Remember, the effect of any problem is determined by the cause. In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template Marker.

Unyielding Hunger

Added the orange.

Please re-read the blast marker section, any model can be killed as a result of the blast marker hits.
rigeld2 wrote:
Because you're applying the wound to the models (so you can double it).
Why are you being inconsistent?
I am not applying anything.

They tell us to use the common armor save in the unit to make armor saves before allocation. after the models fail their armor saves, which is before applying the wounds to the models, you see that Swarm rule doubles unsaved wounds.

A unit is just a collection of models, so does the unit have the swarm rule? If so the wounds get doubled when they are suffered.

Basically the process is this:

1. Cause wounds and populate the wound pool.
2. Roll armor saves and fail 4 armor saves (Note it says the unit gets an armor save but models take saves not units so this step either does not work, or we have to look to the models for the SV value).
3. Since the unit suffers an unsaved wound and the unit has the Swarm rule the wounds are now doubled.
4. Allocate wounds and remove casualties.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:20:04


Post by: rigeld2


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

1. 4 Wounds are issued to the Unit of Ripper Swarms, and are then placed in the Wounds Pool.
2. From the Wounds Pool, 1 Wound is issued to each Ripper Swarm.

rigeld2 wrote:Citation required. The Same Save rules do not say this.


Pg 15, right hand side. Allocate Wounds down to Emptied Wound Pool.

Same save units do armor saves first, then allocate, and its not allocated 1 to each ripper swarm, but one to the closest model, resolved, repeat.

In this case, instead of trying to weasel out some extra kills, you should have focused on the simple and straightforward rules that dictate a Blast Template.

You mean the ones that say to use the normal shooting rules to resolve the attack? The ones you used?


Fixed that for you. Read the rules. The initial wounds were allocated to the wounds pool from the shot. The extra wounds given by Swarms are never given to the wounds pool, therefore they cannot be reallocated. 4 wounds were caused by the shot, and those are the only wounds given to the wounds pool.

And modified original post to be more clear.

Oh, so exactly what I've been saying, only with incorrect rules citation and confusing wording? Thanks for being so disappointed and bringing up irrelevant rules - protip: in this case the blast rules are absolutely irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:

1. Cause wounds and populate the wound pool.
2. Roll armor saves and fail 4 armor saves (Note it says the unit gets an armor save but models take saves not units so this step either does not work, or we have to look to the models for the SV value).

I've addressed this. The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.
3. Since the unit suffers an unsaved wound and the unit has the Swarm rule the wounds are now doubled.
4. Allocate wounds and remove casualties.

The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:40:24


Post by: katfude


So what was wrong with my post that it got completely skipped over?

The rules are all about timing.

Eternal warrior activates upon an unsaved wound. So does the double rainbow effect of templates on swarms. They activate simultaneously, so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first. You also roll all saves at the same time in a non-mixed unit, so all wounds are rolled simultaneously, unless they are mixed str and ap value shots, which the shooting player chooses which set of shots hit and resolve first.

There are 4 scarab bases. I wound 3 with baleflamer hits. I choose ID to apply first. I kill 3 models.

If I chose double wounds, I would have 6 wounds, and each base has 3 wounds. I kill 2 bases, with no spill-over to the other 2 bases, so ID applies to no model. I kill only 2 bases.

I hit and wound with a bolter and 3 wounds from a baleflamer. I apply the bolter first, remove 1 wound, double the wounds to 6 first, then apply instant death. 1 wound spills over to the other base and I kill 3 scarabs. Had I applied instant death first, the same amount of models would have died, because the bolter left 2 wounds open for ID to stick to.


In a mixed unit, it's more complex. You must allocate wounds on a model-by-model basis. You would have to roll each save separately, and then upon a failure, resolve the double wound/ID order, which would mean that either order would do nothing for you in my example.

4 scarab bases and 1 lord attached. Scarabs are up front, but the unit is mixed. I can, therefore, assign wounds on a model-by-model basis, RAW.

"First, allocate a Wound from the Wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit." If there is no save or a failed save, then you choose to apply the template or the ID effect first, MODEL-BY-MODEL per RAW. I can elect to use the fast dice rule as the defender. "You can instead allocate them in groups equal to however many models with the same, best save are nearest to the firing unit."

3 scarabs, 1 lord w/ phase shifter. 4 baleflamer wounds. I apply 3 wounds only, per mixed saves.

If shooter doubles first: 6 wounds, 2 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer wound to other scarab base. Lord takes no wound.

If shooter IDs first: 3 ID wounds, 3 dead scarabs, 1 leftover flamer to the lord.

Work complete!


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:51:56


Post by: rigeld2


The fact that you ignore allocation in all of your examples.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 17:54:40


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.
They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

@katfude 2 things.

1) it was back on Page 4
2) Doubling of wounds and Determining ID have nothing to do with "Applying rules first" Not sure what you post is supposed to imply.

Basically you said "so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first." where did you get that from, because it is not a rule. You may be confusing it with P. 9, the exceptions section says: if both players have to do something at the same time then the player whose turn it is decides the order.

This is not the case here as both players do not have to do something.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 18:00:55


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.
They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

I'm not glossing over it.
The triggers for the two are exactly identical. You're applying one and not the other. Why?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 18:37:47


Post by: katfude


 DeathReaper wrote:

Basically you said "so the person who's turn it is chooses which applies first." where did you get that from, because it is not a rule. You may be confusing it with P. 9, the exceptions section says: if both players have to do something at the same time then the player whose turn it is decides the order.

This is not the case here as both players do not have to do something.



Thank you, I totally misapplied that.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 20:24:50


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The unit suffered an unsaved wound that has a STR double the units toughness the entire unit is removed, according to you.

The Swarm trigger and the ID trigger are identical. Applying one but not the other is inconsistent.
They still need to be allocated the wound to be removed. I am surprised you glossed over that fact.

I'm not glossing over it.
The triggers for the two are exactly identical. You're applying one and not the other. Why?
The triggers for both Swarm and ID are identical (Suffering an unsaved wound) then we have to apply them when the unit suffers an unsaved wound, which is after saves are rolled, but before allocation as per the rules.

So we try and save 4 wound, and fail 3. At this point we have 3 unsaved wounds which are doubled to 6 unsaved wounds due to swarm and cause ID due to Str double tough.

We then allocate those 6 wounds, one at a time, and we see that 1 ID wound kills one base. We then have 5 wounds left to allocate, so we allocate another to the next closest model to the firing unit and kill that one as well etc...



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 20:32:39


Post by: rigeld2


Again, you're forcing a model to suffer a wound before allocating it. You have no permission to do so.

And you're misapplying ID. Using your interpretation, the wounds wound double and all wounds in the unit would be reduced to zero, per the ID rules. You can't insert a step for no reason.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 20:34:57


Post by: Gravmyr


Except you would be applying Swarm USR at unit level to double them and ID at the model level. As you just said you have to apply them both at the same time as they are identical but where the Same Save method tells you to determine the save you don't have any permission to compare strength the unit's toughness. Can you show me where it tells you in Same Save method it tells you to compare strength to toughness?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have special permission to do one thing out of order and that is to takes saves before allocation that is all. It does not say you can do anything else. It doesn't say to apply all rules before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:23:56


Post by: DeathReaper


"If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater" P. 16

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43

Notice the difference?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:31:38


Post by: Happyjew


Yes, one refers to a model, the other refers to a model with the Swarms special rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:44:27


Post by: DeathReaper


You mean a unit with the swarms rule


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:53:33


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
You mean a unit with the swarms rule

Cite a unit with that special rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:54:37


Post by: DeathReaper


When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:55:55


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:56:51


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.
The rules of the English language.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:58:07


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
When every model in the rule has Swarms, the unit has that rule.

And of course you can cite the rule that says that.
The rules of the English language.

Which would be inconsistent with how GW words special rules.

Do units test for Dangerous Terrain, or do models?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:58:47


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.

Basically the Swarms rule has the same requirement as armor saves.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 22:59:43


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
The rule requires checking the models saves as you must determine if its a mixed or same save unit. Once you determine it's same save, you roll that save for the unit.

Basically the Swarms rule has the same requirement as armor saves.

Really? Can you show it to me? I'm not seeing it. I see it in the Same Save rules for armor saves...


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 23:01:46


Post by: DeathReaper


You have to check if it is a Swarm or not.

It all boils down to what is a "Swarm"

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound..." P. 43


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 23:04:30


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
You have to check if it is a Swarm or not.

Citation required. We know that you have to check armor saves - so you can tell the difference between a same and mixed save unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 23:17:00


Post by: DeathReaper


"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds" Page 43.

You have to check if it is a Swarm when the unit suffers an unsaved Wound to be able to apply the rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/03 23:58:56


Post by: Gravmyr


You are still not allowed to apply any rules that affect models at this point till a model suffers a wound, the unit has suffered a wound not a model. You have permission to change one timing issue alone and that is saves before allocation. Swarm USR is a model only rule as all rules that apply to entire units are the ones that say "A unit containing at least one model with this special rule" or something nearly identical. If the wounds applied to the unit without regard to models it would have been worded in Same Save method as remove a number of models with wounds equal to the wounds in the wound pool. It does not. INstead the focus shifts to individual models again as soon as the saves are failed via allocation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an aside by saying that Swarm applies to the whole unit as it is all a Swarm due to the english language you are also saying that the only time a Swarm has it's unsaved wounds doubled is when it suffers a single unsaved wound. Note the rule says wound not wounds. So either it doubles at allocation of an unsaved wound or at the failure of a save of an allocated wound any other time it is wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 00:43:19


Post by: ah64pilot5


So, new to this discussion, but trying to get it straight in my head also.
Is there a rule that allows a unit to wound more models than it hits in the shooting phase?
My reason for asking this is what if a unit shoots a heavy incinerator and can only just reach one swarm base in a unit of 6 (stupid positioning, but thats the scenario.)
By the doubling and going back to the wound pool that would would kill a second base. But in this instance, only one base was hit.
Where in the rules does it allow you to move wounds from shooting onto a model that was not even hit in the first place? I had thought that shooting was a 1 for 1 on hit vs. wound?
Not trying to be a pain, but much of this discussion seems confusing and circular.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 01:20:42


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds" Page 43.

You have to check if it is a Swarm when the unit suffers an unsaved Wound to be able to apply the rule.

I don't see the word unit in that rule.
Am I missing it? Would you mind bolding it for me?
Also, can you show me where units suffer unsaved wounds? I don't see that in the shooting rules - I see that the Wound Pool is populated though. Are those the same thing?

And your sentence is right - you would have to check to see if the models in the unit have the Swarm rule to apply it.
Now, find permission to apply it at that phase instead of after allocation, which is when the Swarm (model) suffers an unsaved wound.
Right now your argument is that you must check because the unit has Swarm and you know the unit has Swarm because you've checked. Awfully circular logic there.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 02:52:22


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


Ok, I really can't understand how this is still being argued. Lets go from the top of Page 15, and work from there, with some citations from the Blast & Large Blast rule along with the Swarms and Instant Death rules.

Step 1. To determine how many casualties are caused, you will need to allocate the wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed.

So, 4 wounds are being resolved, and at 4 models in the unit, since a quick look back through the rules for a blast template shows that you don't even have to roll for those exact models under the template. However, it is still 4 models.

Step 2. Roll To-Wound for the 4 models you have hit, and then tally up the successful To-Wound rolls into your wound pool. Lets say they made all 4 To-Wound Rolls.

Step 3. The target unit gets to make 4 saving throws for the 4 wounds being resolved. Now, from the Allocate Wounds section, it says that you first allocate a wound from the wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. Now, the wound pool for a blast weapon that has wounded 4 models is 4. So, we can interpret that "resolved" is interchangeable with "allocate".

Step 4. The target unit gets to make 1 savings throw for each wound that has been allocated to it from the wounds pool. (Repeat Step 5 for each wound individually, and once done, the Wounds Pool is empty, and the next shooting attack can begin.)

Step 5. Now, combine Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties with Take Saves and Remove Casualties. Since the Armor Penetration has bypassed the armor save of the Ripper Swarms, they have no saves, and all 4 wounds have now become Unsaved Wounds. It is at this point that the Swarms Universal Special Rule takes affect, because the model in question has suffered an Unsaved Wound. Now, because it does not say that Special Rules take place in any order or that any single player can dictate which special rule occurs first, it must be assumed that all Special Rules take place at the exact same time. So, the Ripper Swarm model takes 1 Unsaved Wound. Simultaneously, the Swarm and the Instant Death Universal Special Rules take effect, dealing the model 2 wounds and instantly killing the model due to double wounding.

Now, to recap exactly how that happens, The single Unsaved Wound is dealt, however it is doubled to 2 unsaved wounds due to the fact that the Swarm rule takes any single wound and doubles it. It does not specify that you take each wound one at a time. It is here that the Instant Death rule kicks in on the two wounds dealt to it and kills it automatically.

So, I will gladly rescind my earlier statement that you cannot allocate wounds to models not under the template. In fact, I will now use this loophole with reckless abandon. I will also rescind my earlier step by step instruction in favor of this more detailed format. My apologies.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 04:34:39


Post by: rigeld2


And your more detailed format is still wrong.

Hit unit.
Populate wound pool.
Make armor saves.
Allocate wounds to models.

You've allocated twice, made saves after allocation, and allocated wounds without resolving them all first. Full. Of. Fail.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 04:39:41


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 05:01:01


Post by: rigeld2


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.

After rereading what you wrote, you have the most confusing presentation I've ever read. Seriously.

Also, your step 4 you say the wound pool is empty but you have not resolved any of the wounds. This is impossible.
You must fully resolve a wound before allocating the next.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 05:56:38


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


rigeld2 wrote:
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.

After rereading what you wrote, you have the most confusing presentation I've ever read. Seriously.

Also, your step 4 you say the wound pool is empty but you have not resolved any of the wounds. This is impossible.
You must fully resolve a wound before allocating the next.


I see what you meant on step 4. I rushed in my typing and just skipped to just writing it all together and forgot to mention it's rinse and repeat. Fixed that for you. And yes, I know it's confusing, but that is literally the entire wounding phase, with all parts added. No tailoring or anything. I combined what went together, and put it in order as written. You realize how hard it was to write all that, and with that capacity of coherency? I've seen soap operas more straightforward.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 09:09:28


Post by: Gravmyr


The problem is that you can't put both sections together of standard rules and the Same Save method. Once a wound has been allocated you have no permission to take the wound off the model. Allocation moves the Wound from the pool to the Model.

Normal Shooting
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
5a. Allocate to closest model
5b. Take Saving Throw
5c. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5d. Continue allocating Wounds from the Wound pool to the next closest model

Same Save Method
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties
5a. Identify Save of entire unit by comparing all models
5b. Rolls Saves for entire unit, Wound pool becomes Unsaved Wounds of those remaining
5c. Allocate unsaved wound to closest model
5d. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5e. Continue allocating Wounds from the Wound pool to the next closest model

The Same Save method allows you to check the entire unit for Armour Saves only. A model does not suffer an unsaved wound till it is allocated to it. By doubling the wounds in the unsaved wound pool due to a rule found on models only you are altering how the rule itself works. The Same Save section does not give you permission to check for rules before allocation nor does it state that a model has been wounded before allocation. It simply tells you to roll saves before allocation which allows you to speed up the game.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 11:05:02


Post by: -Nazdreg-


@Gravmyr

Signed. That means that ID as well as Swarm rule triggers after step 5c for mixed saves and 5d for same saves. After a specific model suffered a wound (got his wounds characteristic reduced by 1).

Making the doubled wound jump to the next model, because somehow it found out that the first one was ID is breaking the rules x 2:

1. Wounds don't jump over from 1 model to another. They are allocated from the wound pool to a specific model and then applied there

2. ID does not happen before doubling


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 16:09:09


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
The problem is that you can't put both sections together of standard rules and the Same Save method. Once a wound has been allocated you have no permission to take the wound off the model. Allocation moves the Wound from the pool to the Model.

Normal Shooting
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
5a. Allocate to closest model
5b. Take Saving Throw
5c. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5d. Allocate to next closest

Same Save Method
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties
5a. Identify Save of entire unit by comparing all models
5b. Rolls Saves for entire unit, Wound pool becomes Unsaved Wounds of those remaining
5c. Allocate unsaved wound to closest model
5d. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5e. Allocate to next closest

The Same Save method allows you to check the entire unit for Armour Saves only. A model does not suffer an unsaved wound till it is allocated to it. By doubling the wounds in the unsaved wound pool due to a rule found on models only you are altering how the rule itself works. The Same Save section does not give you permission to check for rules before allocation nor does it state that a model has been wounded before allocation. It simply tells you to roll saves before allocation which allows you to speed up the game.


For the same save method you'll note in 5A, you've compared all the models to figure out their saves. Logically this will find the swarm rule, and any other rules that could influence the saves. ie armor, invuln, cover, stealth, KFF's, etc. Then for 5b you even acknowledge you have unsaved wounds in the pool. So you can see how the wounds would be doubled in the unsaved wound pool. You have the right procedure, just the wrong conclusion.

For mixed saves shooting, you'll note the swarm rule creates a second unsaved wound, it doesn't create unsaved wounds (2). So after finishing 5c with the first wound, you'll note there is still a unsaved wound to be dealt with.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 16:13:48


Post by: rigeld2


Where is your permission to look for special rules in addition to saves?

The only thing you have permission to compare is saves. Since KFF, armor, invulnerable, cover, etc. all bestow saves you'll find the save, but the source of the save isnt relevant.

Edit: as for the mixed save "issue" you pointed out, you're incorrect. It doesn't create another unsaved wound.
The Swarm rule doubles the wound suffered by the model. Instead of subtracting 1, you subtract 2.
Even if your assumption was correct, where is the permission to move it back into the wound pool - the original wound was allocated and therefore cannot be in the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 16:36:57


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
Where is your permission to look for special rules in addition to saves?

The only thing you have permission to compare is saves. Since KFF, armor, invulnerable, cover, etc. all bestow saves you'll find the save, but the source of the save isnt relevant.

Edit: as for the mixed save "issue" you pointed out, you're incorrect. It doesn't create another unsaved wound.
The Swarm rule doubles the wound suffered by the model. Instead of subtracting 1, you subtract 2.
Even if your assumption was correct, where is the permission to move it back into the wound pool - the original wound was allocated and therefore cannot be in the wound pool.


Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 17:44:42


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

Problems? What haven't I addressed?

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

So it's multiplied after being allocated, right? Why are you trying to allocate a wound that is not in the wound pool?
It's resolved - it is applied to the model before its IDed.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

Stealth modifies cover saves. What relevance does Swarm have to do with saves - the only thing you're asked to look at?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.

The fact that the rules are based solely on saves and not "saves and special rules" means you're only allowed to look at saves (and therefore things that modify those saves). Applying literally anything but rules that have to do with saves means you're doing something without permission - ie you're breaking the rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 17:55:03


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


sirlynchmob wrote:
Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.



Cite the source that allows you to take the 2nd wound on its own. The rules for wound allocation make no includes for doubled wound effects. It strictly states the case for single wound allocations. The Swarms special rule states that when taking 1 wound, you instead take 2. In fact, it implies that you take both at the exact same time. In which case, you have taken (2) unsaved wounds, and the Instant Death rule would kick in upon the resolving of those wounds, killing it.

Now, to commment on your little new unsaved wound thing, let me ask you this. Where is the rule that states that this magic unsaved wound, that never originated from the Wound Pool, can be resolved. If you are interpretting the rules like that, then you literally can not resolve that second wound due to the fact that it is not a "True" Unsaved wound, and because there are no rules dictating that this wound goes back to the wound pool, it cannot be resolved as normal. In fact, the only precedent that I could compare this to would be the results of a completed challenge, where any extra wounds caused would not be relocated back into the rest of the assualt, and would have no effect on resolution.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 17:58:16


Post by: sirlynchmob


That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

Where under the cover save rules do you get permission to check models for stealth? oh ya you don't. so I guess models can't grant stealth to units then. Because you don't have permission to check for model based SR until they're allocated a wound.

Swarm modifies the unsaved wounds received by blast weapons so you would check those rules as soon as you have unsaved blast wounds.

Please quote the rule that says you can look for abilities that only affect saves.

You just have permission to make a saving throw if you have one. no where does it say to check for any special rules that may modify the save. so you play by what ever rules you're making up as you go along, and I'll stick to the rules I can actually read in the rule book.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 18:07:18


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.


That is not how it works...reread the rules for the wound pool. The wound pool is made up of your original successful To-Wound rolls. It is from there that you allocate wounds, reducing the number of wounds in that pool, to models, and only after the model fails the save roll, does a wound become an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is never allowed into the wound pool, because it has already been resolved against a model. hence the fact that it is an Unsaved Wound, and not a wound. There is a huge difference. Wounds can become unsaved wounds, but unsaved wounds cannot become wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 18:09:18


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

I have. The fact that you seem to ignore that isn't my problem.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

I believe I've responded to every post of yours and addressed everything. If you disagree either restate or requote.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

There's a process for populating the wound pool. "Any unsaved wound" is not it.

Where under the cover save rules do you get permission to check models for stealth? oh ya you don't. so I guess models can't grant stealth to units then. Because you don't have permission to check for model based SR until they're allocated a wound.

You cannot ensure that every model has the same (or different) saves without looking for abilities or rules that modify saves.
Under your assertion not only would Stealth be broken, but pretty much and non-area terrain.

Swarm modifies the unsaved wounds received by blast weapons so you would check those rules as soon as you have unsaved blast wounds.

As soon as the model has, yes.

Please quote the rule that says you can look for abilities that only affect saves.

Page 15 where it separates mixed and same save units.

You just have permission to make a saving throw if you have one. no where does it say to check for any special rules that may modify the save. so you play by what ever rules you're making up as you go along, and I'll stick to the rules I can actually read in the rule book.

Please don't insult me, I haven't done so to you.
I'm not making anything up, I'm following the requirements of a permissive rules set.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 18:36:03


Post by: sirlynchmob


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.


That is not how it works...reread the rules for the wound pool. The wound pool is made up of your original successful To-Wound rolls. It is from there that you allocate wounds, reducing the number of wounds in that pool, to models, and only after the model fails the save roll, does a wound become an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is never allowed into the wound pool, because it has already been resolved against a model. hence the fact that it is an Unsaved Wound, and not a wound. There is a huge difference. Wounds can become unsaved wounds, but unsaved wounds cannot become wounds.


pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@rigeld2
in these 7 pages, you listed pg 15 twice in response to others, saying they're reading it wrong.

You like asking others to provide you actual rule quotes, yet you have yet to provide one. You state things as if they are rules, yet fail to provide any actual quotes.

Your method breaks stealth, because according to you from the random things you've posted throughout here, you don't check for SR that are model based until that model is allocated a wound. so if your unit just has 1 model with stealth, you don't get to check for it until it is allocated a wound.

so please show me the any rule that states you can only check models for special rules during allocation of wounds. or any rule that even allows you to check for a special rule.

This is not an insult or personal attack, I'm just pointing out you have yet to make a case for how you think the rules work. Because you can't claim RAW and not cite any rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 18:53:40


Post by: Gravmyr


It's because those rules are always in effect and modifying your cover saves. Even if you don't have a cover save you have the bonuses. The Same Save method only tells you to look at the saves and that is all. Again to understand why your interpretation is incorrect you have to understand the difference between a unit and a model rule in 40k.

Swarm USR reads "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound from blasts or a template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

Functions "If a model with the Swarm USR fails a save against an allocated Wound or is allocated an unsaved Wound from blasts or a template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

Your interpretation would have to read "If a unit that contains at least one model with Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from blasts or a template weapon add an additional Unsaved Wound to the wound pool."

If you can't see how the first two are read to say the same thing then there is a fault in the processing of the sentences. The Swarms USR never mentions doing anything at the unit level. The Same Save method only references calculating the save for the unit.

I listed a number of pages earlier that state that allocation comes before making a save and if you look at that as being the standard, outside of the Same Save method, you can then understand why you have to equate allocation with suffering. This goes to explain why under Invulnerable Saves it states you can only make one against a suffered wound. This explains why the FAQ states that only Wound suffered by a character in a challenge and not those left in the pool count toward combat resolution. pg 26 also states only Wounds suffered by enemy models count not wounds in excess of of a Model's Wounds characteristic. All of these things point toward suffered equating to allocated.

All of that being said, I see no assumptions on mine or rigeld2's part. We read the Same Save method as giving you permission to make your saves, calculated to be the same, before you allocate. Then you allocate and move on. I do see that you are making an assumption that you consult the rest of the models rules and apply them as well.

@ Nazdreg I didn't actually put in the doubling or ID in that list just showed how it works. You are right they happen at the same time at the points mentioned and they don't jump, a swarm now has 2 unsaved wounds allocated to it both causing ID. No where in Swarms does it say to add an unsaved Wound to the pool but that one that is already somewhere else becomes 2. I think I see what you are getting at though and will repair.

To make a comparison that I hope will help: I have an agreement with a corporation that they will match any donation to a charity that I make. I make a $5 donation then they make a $5 donation to the same charity. They do not give me another $5 to donate to a different charity.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 19:00:10


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
It's because those rules are always in effect and modifying your cover saves. Even if you don't have a cover save you have the bonuses. The Same Save method only tells you to look at the saves and that is all. Again to understand why your interpretation is incorrect you have to understand the difference between a unit and a model rule in 40k.


so you can provide a rule that states only some SR are always in effect at all times, and others are not?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 19:08:06


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 19:26:29


Post by: sirlynchmob


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.


You quoted me quoting the rule. Swarm allows you to bend the main rule and do just that.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 19:29:53


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


sirlynchmob wrote:
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.


You quoted me quoting the rule. Swarm allows you to bend the main rule and do just that.


No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool. To put it another way, because there are no extra wounds because both are issued at the exact same time, there is no extra wound. And it still wouldn't regulate it back to the wound pool.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 19:42:19


Post by: Fragile


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool.


Perhaps you should reread the rule. It does not state you "take 2 wounds at the exact same time." Your interpreting the sentence to mean what you think it should. If it said what you claim, this discussion would have been over on page 1.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 20:02:56


Post by: Unyielding Hunger


Fragile wrote:
 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool.


Perhaps you should reread the rule. It does not state you "take 2 wounds at the exact same time." Your interpreting the sentence to mean what you think it should. If it said what you claim, this discussion would have been over on page 1.


With how rules are, they act as written unless specified. Because they do not explicitely say that you resolve the individual wound as 2 separate unsaved wounds, you cannot simply assume that you can do that. What the rule does say is that when a unsaved wound is dealt, it is multiplied to 2. So, while you do have 1 unsaved wound initially, when you come to the step of removing wounds from a model, you instead remove 2 wounds instead of 1.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 20:57:14


Post by: Gravmyr


The Swarms USR says so it's self: The first word is if. The Stealth and shrouded have no conditional equivalent and state in their rules that they are always active.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 20:59:20


Post by: DeathReaper


The rule is not 100% clear either way, as the Swarm rules state: "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast o are Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

The BRB does not specify what they mean when they say "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound"

What is their definition of a Swarm suffering an Unsaved Wound?

It could be when a model with the swarm rule is allocated a wound.

It could be when a unit with the swarm rule fails a save.

We have no way of knowing, So in this case I think it is best to wait for the FaQ to solidify it. Until then we should take the least advantageous interpretation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 21:27:53


Post by: Gravmyr


Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all? The rule itself only mentions a Swarm and USR's only belong to models unless they specifically state they affect the unit. I have shown you where a Model has the Swarms USR not units. I have also shown that suffering requires allocation. It would be inconsistent to say that it applies one way during one type of save method and another the other, via mine and rigeld2's method it is applied uniformly across all save type situations. And who's side would be the least advantageous? The one where the closest model takes two simultaneous unsaved wound and if they are ID you remove that model or the one where you get to remove two bases one a single hit?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 21:48:39


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all?
Yes it references units as per P. 7

"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex." Page 7 BRB

P. 55 Tyranid Codex Ripper Swarm Entry "Special rules:... Feed, Fearless, Swarms."

A Ripper Swarms Unit has the Swarms Special Rule.

So Swarms does indeed apply to the unit.
Gravmyr wrote:
I have also shown that suffering requires allocation.

For same save units this is not true, as per P.15
Gravmyr wrote:
And who's side would be the least advantageous? The one where the closest model takes two simultaneous unsaved wound and if they are ID you remove that model or the one where you get to remove two bases one a single hit?

Least advantageous is always for the player with the rule. In this case the one with the Swarms rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 21:59:07


Post by: Gravmyr


pg 32 under what special rules do I have:
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant entry in it's codex."

Also pg 7 the beginning of the paragraph that line is taken from says "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 15 has no reference to suffering at all.

Both unit's have a USR in this case a blast and the Swarms rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 22:08:42


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
pg 32 under what special rules do I have:
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant entry in it's codex."

Also pg 7 the beginning of the paragraph that line is taken from says "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models..."

So they use model and unit interchangeably.

So my point still stands.
Pg 15 has no reference to suffering at all.

Both unit's have a USR in this case a blast and the Swarms rule.
Sorry not 15, it is on P. 16 Armor saves section

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour[sic] fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

After you fail an armor save you suffer an unsaved wound. P.15 says you take saves before allocation for same save units.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 22:22:35


Post by: Gravmyr


What does it say above that? Allocate a wound. The FAQ as well as multiple other locations tells you that wounds in a wound pool have not been suffered. You still have not come up with a reason why in your interpretation suddenly the wounds count as suffered at the unit level here. The changes to the rules that you can use for the Same Save method fall in the 6 paragraphs of that section on pg 15. You have to cobble together your interpretation from half rules in multiple sections for it to even come close to working ours leaves all the rules working at all levels.


Your note about USR's on pg 7 is also covered on pg 3 Other Important Information, "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model..... it's enough that you know where to look for these aspects of the model." If you read as everything in the unit entry belongs to the unit then they only have a single set of wargear for the entire unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Same Save method as I detailed before exchanges two steps in the process, allocation and save and that is all.

Normally a save goes.
Allocate
take save
suffer an unsaved wound

Same Save method tells you to change two of those steps.
Take saves
Allocate unsaved wound
suffer an unsaved wound


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 23:31:01


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:

@rigeld2
in these 7 pages, you listed pg 15 twice in response to others, saying they're reading it wrong.

You like asking others to provide you actual rule quotes, yet you have yet to provide one. You state things as if they are rules, yet fail to provide any actual quotes.

Page 15 is a rules quote - I'm referring to page 15 in the BRB just to clarify.

Your method breaks stealth, because according to you from the random things you've posted throughout here, you don't check for SR that are model based until that model is allocated a wound. so if your unit just has 1 model with stealth, you don't get to check for it until it is allocated a wound.

That's a lie, please retract it. I've addressed this issue and you have ignored it.

so please show me the any rule that states you can only check models for special rules during allocation of wounds. or any rule that even allows you to check for a special rule.

You are told that you must treat mixed save units and same save units differently - page 15. This is a fact.
To determine what kind of unit you're dealing with, you must determine what saves the unit has.
In doing so you must evaluate all rules that could affect the saves.

This is not an insult or personal attack, I'm just pointing out you have yet to make a case for how you think the rules work. Because you can't claim RAW and not cite any rules.

I have made a RAW case. I have cited rules. The fact that you seem to ignore that doesn't actually support your stance.

I've asked for rules citations from you, and you haven't provided them. What rule says that all unsaved wounds go into a pool? What rule allows you to return a wound to the wound pool? Please cite or concede.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
It could be when a unit with the swarm rule fails a save.

This cannot be true.

In a mixed save unit, an IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes. You've agreed that an IC in a Ripper unit does not take the double wounds penalty when be fails a save.

Applying your statement in the same save situation but not in the mixed save situation is inconsistent.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 23:40:19


Post by: DeathReaper


The rules in this case are inconsistent.

The way we allocate wounds and take armor saves are inconsistent.

The two processes are different, so it follows that anything applied to them will work differently in each case.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 23:47:41


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules in this case are inconsistent.

The way we allocate wounds and take armor saves are inconsistent.

The two processes are different, so it follows that anything applied to them will work differently in each case.

What does the Swarm rule being applied to the unit or not have to do with allocating wounds or taking armor saves?

If I'm shooting at a mixed save unit do I use the same BS as if I was shooting at a same save unit?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 23:52:59


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The rules in this case are inconsistent.

The way we allocate wounds and take armor saves are inconsistent.

The two processes are different, so it follows that anything applied to them will work differently in each case.

What does the Swarm rule being applied to the unit or not have to do with allocating wounds or taking armor saves?

If I'm shooting at a mixed save unit do I use the same BS as if I was shooting at a same save unit?
The inconsistent part is clear.

Wound allocation and the whole armor save process is different for mixed save units and for same save units.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/04 23:56:10


Post by: rigeld2


Yes, the rules make it clear that the armor save process and wound allocation are different between mixed save and same save units.

What does that have to do with a completely different rule that has nothing to do with either of those things?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:04:36


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the rules make it clear that the armor save process and wound allocation are different between mixed save and same save units.

What does that have to do with a completely different rule that has nothing to do with either of those things?

It has to do with applying the rule at a different time.
Applying your statement in the same save situation but not in the mixed save situation is inconsistent.

We apply the rule at a different time because the process is different.

We can not apply them at the same time because the rules are not consistent.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:07:45


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, the rules make it clear that the armor save process and wound allocation are different between mixed save and same save units.

What does that have to do with a completely different rule that has nothing to do with either of those things?

It has to do with applying the rule at a different time.
Applying your statement in the same save situation but not in the mixed save situation is inconsistent.

We apply the rule at a different time because the process is different.

We can not apply them at the same time because the rules are not consistent.

You have 2 options. Be consistent (apply after allocation) or be inconsistent. Since the armor save and allocation rules have literally zero effect on the Swarm rules, there is no reason to be inconsistent with the interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're choosing inconsistency because it supports your view. There's no other reason to choose to apply it at different stages.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:27:10


Post by: Gravmyr


If you look at the way we apply everything mine and rigeld2's way is to apply it at the same point. The BRB says a model suffers an unsaved wound after two steps a failed save and allocation. Normally Allocation comes first then the save is taken. In the Same Save method those two steps are reversed and you apply everything else normally including the doubling from Swarms.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:29:52


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:

Your method breaks stealth, because according to you from the random things you've posted throughout here, you don't check for SR that are model based until that model is allocated a wound. so if your unit just has 1 model with stealth, you don't get to check for it until it is allocated a wound.

That's a lie, please retract it. I've addressed this issue and you have ignored it.

so please show me the any rule that states you can only check models for special rules during allocation of wounds. or any rule that even allows you to check for a special rule.

You are told that you must treat mixed save units and same save units differently - page 15. This is a fact.
To determine what kind of unit you're dealing with, you must determine what saves the unit has.
In doing so you must evaluate all rules that could affect the saves.

This is not an insult or personal attack, I'm just pointing out you have yet to make a case for how you think the rules work. Because you can't claim RAW and not cite any rules.

I have made a RAW case. I have cited rules. The fact that you seem to ignore that doesn't actually support your stance.

I've asked for rules citations from you, and you haven't provided them. What rule says that all unsaved wounds go into a pool? What rule allows you to return a wound to the wound pool? Please cite or concede.


So still no rules quote, you keep claiming you've addressed things but you haven't. Go back and re read the thread, give me a pg # where you addressed stealth, or provided any rules to support your position.

Its funny you seem to think you should evaluate all the rules that affect saves, yet ignore any rules that deal with anything else. And if you wait for permission than you are never given it and therefore can't use any special rule. You don't get to pick and choose which SR apply at what times, they apply at all times. The first part of any SR tells you when they activate or when to use them. And if you check a model for the rules that affect saves, you are admitting you check all the rules for that model. Hence you meet the triggering requirement for swarm. "if a swarm suffers an unsaved wound from a blast ... weapon" And as soon as a swarm has unsaved wounds, they are multiplied by 2 making two unsaved wounds. This is where you can provide any rules for how to check for special rules that affect anything. If you want to try and make some sort of difference between model SR and unit SR you need to provide rules supporting it. pssst there are none.

pg 43 "multiplied to two unsaved wounds." if all the models in the target unit have the same saving throws, they will have unsaved wounds in the wound pool. Models in a unit all having the swarm SR have unsaved wounds before they are allocated. swarm models failed saves, they have unsaved wounds, those wounds double because they meet the trigger requirement for Swarm.

For mixed saves as soon as the model fails its save it has an unsaved wound, which is immediately doubled to two unsaved wounds. As you are only allocating one wound at this point so there is still the other wound to deal with. So after finishing resolving the first wound, you now deal with the second unsaved wound. You claim, allocate it to a dead model, which has no rules to support it. The wound doesn't go back into the pool, its already an unsaved wound, that needs to be allocated. pg 32 SR's break or bend main game rules. This is really the only gray area because GW never really addresses how to handle the duplicated wound in this case. You don't have permission to allocate two wounds to one model, and it created a second unsaved wound.

It even works with fast dice "you can allocate them in groups equal to however many models..." Those models fail their saves, those wounds double, remove models.

Then historically how was it ruled in 5th? ID wounds removed 2 bases. so RAI would lean towards my conclusions as well.

Re read my posts, I've cited pg #'s and rules. As you haven't provided a single citation yet, I'll accept that as an admittance that you have no case.






Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:30:32


Post by: DeathReaper


No, I do not choose inconsistency, the rules do that.

The rules are inconsistent as allocation is inconsistent depending on the same or mixed saves.

It is the rules that are inconsistent, not my choice.

The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound, which for same save units is before allocation, and for mixed save units is after allocation. So that is when we double the wounds, when the rules tell us to.

That just happens to be at a different time depending on what kind of unit is being shot.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:51:00


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
No, I do not choose inconsistency, the rules do that.

The rules are inconsistent as allocation is inconsistent depending on the same or mixed saves.

It is the rules that are inconsistent, not my choice.

So because the rules are inconsistent in 2 unrelated areas, everything should be inconsistent?
So what BS do I shoot at a mixed save unit with? Same save?

The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound, which for same save units is before allocation, and for mixed save units is after allocation. So that is when we double the wounds, when the rules tell us to.

False, that's not what the rules say. I know you know the correct wording, how about using that?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:53:50


Post by: Gravmyr


@DeathReaper You are choosing inconsistency. It switches two rules and leaves everything else the same. I have shown time and time and time again that an unsaved wound is not suffered till a save is failed and it is allocated. Therefore when Swarms USR kicks in is always step 3. It always requires those two things nothing else changes besides the timing for those two things.

@sirlynchmob I have multiple times pointed out the 5 locations or so where it is established that suffering an unsaved wound requires allocation and a failed save not just failing the save. Just because you don't like it all you have said when I brought these locations up is that it is at a different because it's different. You quote half of the rule for failing Armour Saves leaving out the allocation. For all mixed saves the wounds are allocated first then the save so those are also suffered. It comes down to one thing allocation that is it you need to do it or there is no wounds suffered per page 15 Same Save method. Prove they are suffered only using the rules on that page in that 6 paragraph section not half the Armour Saves rules on the following page.

You can't compare it to 5th as the rule was written entire different and required only hits to happen before doubling.

The Same Save method does not tell you to look at anything else just the saves so you don't get to take into account anything else and since cover saves have to be calculated using the model's rules and the terrain where else would you find it?

GW has told you how to deal with duplicate wounds, you double a wound that has already been allocated and had a save failed. It is on a model so the second is in the same place.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 00:59:49


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
So still no rules quote, you keep claiming you've addressed things but you haven't. Go back and re read the thread, give me a pg # where you addressed stealth, or provided any rules to support your position.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/497144.page#5137940
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/497144.page#5138034
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/497144.page#5139195

Every one of those I've explain why you're wrong about Stealth. I know you've read them - they were addressed to you and you replied to all of them. Please don't pretend I haven't addressed stealth.

Its funny you seem to think you should evaluate all the rules that affect saves, yet ignore any rules that deal with anything else.

Funny, because that's what the rules require, or ... ?

And if you wait for permission than you are never given it and therefore can't use any special rule.

Not true whatsoever.

You don't get to pick and choose which SR apply at what times, they apply at all times. The first part of any SR tells you when they activate or when to use them. And if you check a model for the rules that affect saves, you are admitting you check all the rules for that model. Hence you meet the triggering requirement for swarm.

What does checking to see if a rule effects saves have to do with suffering an unsaved wound?

If you want to try and make some sort of difference between model SR and unit SR you need to provide rules supporting it. pssst there are none.

So all SRs are model based or unit based?

pg 43 "multiplied to two unsaved wounds." if all the models in the target unit have the same saving throws, they will have unsaved wounds in the wound pool. Models in a unit all having the swarm SR have unsaved wounds before they are allocated. swarm models failed saves, they have unsaved wounds, those wounds double because they meet the trigger requirement for Swarm.

Please explain how a model can suffer unsaved wounds (as required by Swarm) prior to allocation.

Then historically how was it ruled in 5th? ID wounds removed 2 bases. so RAI would lean towards my conclusions as well.

I haven't really discussed RAI as it has literally zero bearing on RAW. You might be right. Of course, 6th edition changed how wounds are allocated/handled so you could b wrong on Intent as well.

Re read my posts, I've cited pg #'s and rules. As you haven't provided a single citation yet, I'll accept that as an admittance that you have no case.

That's a lie. I've provided citations.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:09:43


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
No, I do not choose inconsistency, the rules do that.

The rules are inconsistent as allocation is inconsistent depending on the same or mixed saves.

It is the rules that are inconsistent, not my choice.

So because the rules are inconsistent in 2 unrelated areas, everything should be inconsistent?
So what BS do I shoot at a mixed save unit with? Same save?

Unrelated and not comparable.
rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound, which for same save units is before allocation, and for mixed save units is after allocation. So that is when we double the wounds, when the rules tell us to.

False, that's not what the rules say. I know you know the correct wording, how about using that?

Literally it is what the rules say:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43 Swarms rule.
You double 1 unsaved wound into two unsaved wounds.
rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
If you want to try and make some sort of difference between model SR and unit SR you need to provide rules supporting it. pssst there are none.

So all SRs are model based or unit based?

Actually they use model and unit interchangeably.

as I quoted P.7 tells us this.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:21:56


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
No, I do not choose inconsistency, the rules do that.

The rules are inconsistent as allocation is inconsistent depending on the same or mixed saves.

It is the rules that are inconsistent, not my choice.

So because the rules are inconsistent in 2 unrelated areas, everything should be inconsistent?
So what BS do I shoot at a mixed save unit with? Same save?

Unrelated and not comparable.

It's exactly as related as Swarm is to armor saves and wound allocation being in different orders.

rigeld2 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound, which for same save units is before allocation, and for mixed save units is after allocation. So that is when we double the wounds, when the rules tell us to.

False, that's not what the rules say. I know you know the correct wording, how about using that?

Literally it is what the rules say:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43 Swarms rule.
You double 1 unsaved wound into two unsaved wounds.

"The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound" != "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound ... is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."
rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
If you want to try and make some sort of difference between model SR and unit SR you need to provide rules supporting it. pssst there are none.

So all SRs are model based or unit based?

Actually they use model and unit interchangeably.

as I quoted P.7 tells us this.

Awesome, FNP only needs to exist on an IC for the entire unit to benefit. And Instant Death applies to the entire unit obviously - unit and model, are interchangable after all.

3 edits... Good god - one beer and I can't type anymore...


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:24:33


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
@DeathReaper You are choosing inconsistency. It switches two rules and leaves everything else the same. I have shown time and time and time again that an unsaved wound is not suffered till a save is failed and it is allocated. Therefore when Swarms USR kicks in is always step 3. It always requires those two things nothing else changes besides the timing for those two things.

@sirlynchmob I have multiple times pointed out the 5 locations or so where it is established that suffering an unsaved wound requires allocation and a failed save not just failing the save. Just because you don't like it all you have said when I brought these locations up is that it is at a different because it's different. You quote half of the rule for failing Armour Saves leaving out the allocation. For all mixed saves the wounds are allocated first then the save so those are also suffered. It comes down to one thing allocation that is it you need to do it or there is no wounds suffered per page 15 Same Save method. Prove they are suffered only using the rules on that page in that 6 paragraph section not half the Armour Saves rules on the following page.

You can't compare it to 5th as the rule was written entire different and required only hits to happen before doubling.

The Same Save method does not tell you to look at anything else just the saves so you don't get to take into account anything else and since cover saves have to be calculated using the model's rules and the terrain where else would you find it?

GW has told you how to deal with duplicate wounds, you double a wound that has already been allocated and had a save failed. It is on a model so the second is in the same place.


and I keep pointing out that allocation has nothing to do with it. swarm triggers on unsaved wounds.
so for the same save method are you actually saying to ignore all special rules?
and mixed saves just says to "...make a saving throw... if it fails reduce that models wounds by 1..." so I guess since you have no permissions to look at anything else, no special rules apply here either?
Gw just said you have "two unsaved wounds" and in 2 out of 3 sections you'll have unsaved wounds before they're on a model. in the 3rd you're allocating one, and 1/2 way through a second unsaved wound appears.

so you mean something like;
"to see how many model's bases lie partially or completely underneath"
"a model's base is counted as being part of the model itself"

but I like how you want to restrict it to the one page and ignore all the pages that prove my point.
pg 15 same saves "allocated an unsaved wound..."
We can see the usage of the word suffered all throughout the saves section on pg 16 and pg 17. we can see from invuln that you take it when a model "suffers a wound"
and we can see many usages of the phrase "unsaved wounds" from armor saves, through a bunch of SR's.
If a unsaved wound required allocation we would see a phrase like in instant death "the victims toughness" see victim would imply an allocated unsaved wound that reduced the models wounds by 1.

so we can see you suffer a wound
you fail your save
you're now at "suffers an unsaved wound"
and we haven't even got to reducing the wound characteristic yet.



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:27:44


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

Literally it is what the rules say:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43 Swarms rule.
You double 1 unsaved wound into two unsaved wounds.

"The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound" != "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound ... is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."


This is a joke right?

The wounds double AKA: Multiplied to two, as that is what happens when you double 1.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:32:47


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

Literally it is what the rules say:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." P. 43 Swarms rule.
You double 1 unsaved wound into two unsaved wounds.

"The RAW says that the wounds double after an unsaved wound" != "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound ... is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."


This is a joke right?

The wounds double AKA: Multiplied to two, as that is what happens when you double 1.

Are you not able to see the difference between "double after an unsaved wound" and doubling after suffering an unsaved wound?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:38:28


Post by: DeathReaper


Right I missed the suffering part. I was mentally adding it in because the unit suffers an unsaved wound after they fail their armor save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:43:27


Post by: rigeld2


Citation needed. The general armor save rules don't override the specific wound allocation rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:54:30


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
Citation needed. The general armor save rules don't override the specific wound allocation rules.


"Allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties: Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. Reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating unsaved Wounds to the closest model until there are no rnore Wounds left, or the whole unit has been removed as casualties." P.15

I see nothing in there about Suffering an unsaved wound, do you?

I do see that you suffer an unsaved wound when you fail an armor save "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour[Sic] fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." (Edit P. 16)


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:56:30


Post by: rigeld2


That'd be page 16, not page 15.

Does the rule book define suffering?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 01:56:54


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
Stealth modifies cover saves. What relevance does Swarm have to do with saves - the only thing you're asked to look at?


This is your idea of addressing stealth?

citation needed. Where is your permission to check for models with stealth?

So you're with gravmyr and you just ignore all special rules during same save method? Because you're only looking at saves right?





Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:00:45


Post by: rigeld2


sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Stealth modifies cover saves. What relevance does Swarm have to do with saves - the only thing you're asked to look at?


This is your idea of addressing stealth?

citation needed. Where is your permission to check for models with stealth?

So you're with gravmyr and you just ignore all special rules during same save method? Because you're only looking at saves right?

That's one way I addressed it, yes. There were 2 other posts that also addressed it.

And no, he and I are not advocating ignoring all special rules - as I've said. Please don't misrepresent my point when I've made it so clear and you've read the posts.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:01:11


Post by: DeathReaper


The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.

If not then you agree that suffering an unsaved wound happens after a failed save.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:05:39


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.

If not then you agree that suffering an unsaved wound happens after a failed save.

Since you insist that the general Armor Save rules are more specific than the Wpund Allocation rules, could you cite the paragraph before the bullet points you're referencing? It starts with "To take an Armour Save..."


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:09:13


Post by: sirlynchmob


rigeld2 wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Stealth modifies cover saves. What relevance does Swarm have to do with saves - the only thing you're asked to look at?


This is your idea of addressing stealth?

citation needed. Where is your permission to check for models with stealth?

So you're with gravmyr and you just ignore all special rules during same save method? Because you're only looking at saves right?

That's one way I addressed it, yes. There were 2 other posts that also addressed it.

And no, he and I are not advocating ignoring all special rules - as I've said. Please don't misrepresent my point when I've made it so clear and you've read the posts.



You cannot ensure that every model has the same (or different) saves without looking for abilities or rules that modify saves.
Under your assertion not only would Stealth be broken, but pretty much and non-area terrain.

In doing so you must evaluate all rules that could affect the saves.


ok so you're just saying ignore all rules that affect unsaved wounds, and only use rules that affect saves. Got it, you're so clear here.

so where are you getting this rule from?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:14:16


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.

If not then you agree that suffering an unsaved wound happens after a failed save.

Since you insist that the general Armor Save rules are more specific than the Wound Allocation rules, could you cite the paragraph before the bullet points you're referencing? It starts with "To take an Armour Save..."
Nowhere in the Wound allocation rules does it tell you that you suffer an unsaved wound.

"To take an armour[Sic] save, roll a D6 and compare the results to the Armour[Sic] Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." P. 16

And we know from P. 15 that saves are taken before allocation so there is no "model that has been allocated the Wound" so we have to follow those rules instead, as that is what the rules tell us to do.

The Wound allocation rules do not mention suffering an unsaved wound. Where exactly are you getting that from, because from the rules I have quoted you only suffer an unsaved wound after a failed armor save.

As for this: The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:17:12


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.

If not then you agree that suffering an unsaved wound happens after a failed save.

Since you insist that the general Armor Save rules are more specific than the Wound Allocation rules, could you cite the paragraph before the bullet points you're referencing? It starts with "To take an Armour Save..."
"To take an armour[Sic] save, roll a D6 and compare the results to the Armour[Sic]Nowhere in the Wound allocation rules does it tell you that you suffer an unsaved wound.

Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound." P. 16

And we know from P. 15 that saves are taken before allocation so there is no "model that has been allocated the Wound" so we have to follow those rules instead, as that is what the rules tell us to do.

The Wound allocation rules do not mention suffering an unsaved wound. Where exactly are you getting that from, because from the rules I have quoted you only suffer an unsaved wound after a failed armor save.

As for this: The BRB does tell you when suffering an unsaved wound happens, thus defining when it happens.

Are you claiming it happens at a different time if so Citation needed.

It happens after an unsaved wound when a wound is allocated before an armor save.
Which means that the suffering requires allocation. Context my friend.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:20:11


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:

It happens after an unsaved wound when a wound is allocated before an armor save.
Which means that the suffering requires allocation. Context my friend.


Except that is not what the rules say.

"Make a note of how many unsaved - Wounds have been caused." P. 15

"Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit." P.15

They say that you suffer a wound when you fail an armor save. Why are you changing when this happens?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:24:01


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

It happens after an unsaved wound when a wound is allocated before an armor save.
Which means that the suffering requires allocation. Context my friend.


Except that is not what the rules say.

They say that you suffer a wound when you fail an armor save. Why are you changing when this happens?

Because they say you suffer a wound when you fail an armor save after allocation.
Which means allocation is required to suffer a wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, there's a unsaved wound in the wound pool. Citation that its suffered by a Swarm model?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 02:52:24


Post by: DeathReaper


So if you take an armor save before allocation you never suffer an unsaved wound?

Basically this line can not apply for like save units, as you would never get an armor save if this were the case.

"To take an armour[sic] save, roll a D6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound."P. 16

Therefore we have to ignore this line and use the rules for same save units.
rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, there's a unsaved wound in the wound pool. Citation that its suffered by a Swarm model?

They use unit and model interchangeably on P. 7 as per my earlier citation.

Therefore the unsaved wound is suffered by a unit/model with the swarms rule, as every model in the unit has that rule.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 03:46:07


Post by: Gravmyr


sirlynchmob wrote:

and I keep pointing out that allocation has nothing to do with it. swarm triggers on unsaved wounds.
so for the same save method are you actually saying to ignore all special rules?
and mixed saves just says to "...make a saving throw... if it fails reduce that models wounds by 1..." so I guess since you have no permissions to look at anything else, no special rules apply here either?
Gw just said you have "two unsaved wounds" and in 2 out of 3 sections you'll have unsaved wounds before they're on a model. in the 3rd you're allocating one, and 1/2 way through a second unsaved wound appears.

so you mean something like;
"to see how many model's bases lie partially or completely underneath"
"a model's base is counted as being part of the model itself"

but I like how you want to restrict it to the one page and ignore all the pages that prove my point.
pg 15 same saves "allocated an unsaved wound..."
We can see the usage of the word suffered all throughout the saves section on pg 16 and pg 17. we can see from invuln that you take it when a model "suffers a wound"
and we can see many usages of the phrase "unsaved wounds" from armor saves, through a bunch of SR's.
If a unsaved wound required allocation we would see a phrase like in instant death "the victims toughness" see victim would imply an allocated unsaved wound that reduced the models wounds by 1.

so we can see you suffer a wound
you fail your save
you're now at "suffers an unsaved wound"
and we haven't even got to reducing the wound characteristic yet.


Look at the Swarms rule the, it says "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound..." not when a swarm fails a saving throw that is the difference. Every page you look at other then pg 15 starts with allocate a Wound. You are the one ignoring half of every rule on that page as well as the others I mentioned previously. You are both saying that the Same Save method has it's own rules but want to apply half rules to make a hodgepodge to double the Unsaved Wounds in the pool. I see in every instance, except Same Save, you allocate first then you make a save. That is how every save is done with allocation first except in the Same Save section. That having been said again and again and again you suffer a wound at allocation normally. It changes once the save is resolved to be negated or suffering an unsaved wound. In the Same Save method you are allocating Unsaved Wounds and thus suffering unsaved wounds. I have posted at least twice all the times it brings up suffering and the wound pool. Each time the only response I received was basically does not.....

I've tried breaking it down that all saves start, in the basics, with allocating a wound. This is true in every section other than Same Save, that being said why would they address it with different wording addressing Same Save if all the rules for Same Save are together? Thus the rules on every other page assume allocation first. In Armour Saves on pg 16 It starts with allocation, go to making a save then suffering a wound. PG 12 Shooting sequence same. pg 15 mixed saves same. pg 25 Allocating wounds in cc. Allocation is an integral part of all those sections before the save and thus to suffer a wound.

To back up the allocation equates suffering we have the FAQ, pg 26 Determining Assault results, pg 17 Invuln Saves. If a model suffering a Wound is not the same as a Wound being allocated to a model a model never gets to take an Invuln save except in Same Save method. In Determining Assault Results and in the FAQ it requires the Wounds to be suffered not in the pool or negated also backing up allocation and saves being directly linked to suffering.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 03:55:59


Post by: triplare


 DeathReaper wrote:


Therefore the unsaved wound is suffered by a unit/model with the swarms rule, as every model in the unit has that rule.


Is that like Feel No Pain in the sense that every model in the unit has a special rule that kicks on an unsaved wound? I ask because your wording sounds similar to explaining FNP except GW clarified that we should treat the unit as mixed saves to resolve the effect on a model by model basis in the FAQ/errata.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 04:20:46


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all?
Yes it references units as per P. 7

"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex." Page 7 BRB

You're misreading that paragraph. Since they previously defined models as making up a unit on page 3, they're showing that a Special Rule listed in the unit entry applies to models in the unit.

Good thing you're wrong about that - literally breaks the game in hundreds of ways.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 12:11:10


Post by: DeathReaper


Not a misread, that is the actual quote.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 13:22:33


Post by: Gravmyr


 DeathReaper wrote:
Gravmyr wrote:
Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all?
Yes it references units as per P. 7

"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex." Page 7 BRB

P. 55 Tyranid Codex Ripper Swarm Entry "Special rules:... Feed, Fearless, Swarms."

A Ripper Swarms Unit has the Swarms Special Rule.

So Swarms does indeed apply to the unit.


Again they are going to use short hand where ever possible, if they didn't use "unit" there they would have to have say "all models formed into a unit". Which is easier and less space consuming? You have to go out of the rules presented, for Swarms, to bring in part of another section to make that claim. The Swarms USR never references units or the wound pool. When you look at the entirety of the section "Models & Units" they clearly state that the info presented in the unit profile is that of each model in the unit.

You keep claiming that they use model and unit interchangeably but I have yet to see a citation for this. It states on pg 3 as well as pg 32 that the information provided in the unit's breakdown is for the models comprising that unit not that it is applied to the unit as a whole. If you want to claim that the profile provided is for the unit then every unit on your side of the board only gets a single set of wargear for the unit.

You keep claiming that if you use part of the rules on page 16 a failed save is a suffered wound but directly above that it includes allocating a wound. The Same Save method doesn't tell you to follow the rules on pg 16 for taking a save it tells you to look at pg 16 to tell if it has a save at all. pg 15 Same Save method, take saving throws "throw, if it has one (see pg 16), for each... The rules on Same Save have their own set up which is the cruxt of your argument then you keep adding in parts of other rules till it function similar to 5th. It doesn't.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 13:55:59


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Not a misread, that is the actual quote.

Of that single sentence. Taking a single sentence out of context and you can make all kinds of incorrect assumptions.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 17:03:35


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
Again they are going to use short hand where ever possible, if they didn't use "unit" there they would have to have say "all models formed into a unit".
Or you know, Models in a unit, or just Models instead of unit.

But they didn't.

You keep claiming that they use model and unit interchangeably but I have yet to see a citation for this.
P.7 is your citation.

Read that graph they use model to start and unit in the end...


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 19:04:36


Post by: Gravmyr


Actually they use models and unit not model and unit. Which still does not explain how you apply a model based rule to a unit without permission nor how you are ignoring suffering to equate to allocation. All USR's that affect the unit state they affect the unit as in "A unit with at least one model...." In the Same Save method you have permission to violate a single timing rule which is allocating before saving. It does not say to change anything else about timing application of rules or changes to how you handle anything. There is no permission to alter any other aspect of the game and as you yourself have stated this is a permissive rule set. The Same Save method does not mention the unit suffering wounds. The section in Armour Saves you keep quoting also states model, in this case a model that has had a Wound allocated. The only reason the unit can even take a saving throw is that it the Same Save method it has been given permission to do so. The fact that the unit can even take a saving throw excludes any rule that applies to a model taking a saving throw unless you can get it to an identical state, which in the standard game is allocation and a save. Now that we have returned to that state with the allocation you can then resume normally. At best you can say that the same save method disallows all USR's as they only work if the model is taking a saving throw.

I would also like to point out that just because the unit has that same saving throw does not make it identical. I can create a situation where that isn't the case and in that case doubling at the wound pool can impose the Swarms USR onto a model that is not a Swarm. In the method rigeld2 and I have set forth it doesn't matter what the unit composition is the rule is applied only to those models it would in the Mixed Save method. If you remove ID from the matter your directions can deal additional wounds to non-Swarms models ours cannot, In the end you are choosing to apply a multiplier at a level in which you are not instructed to do so.

Look at the full rule set forth by the Same Save method.
1. Take a save if possible.
2. Allocate an unsaved wound to the closest model
3. Reduce the model's Wounds by one
4. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds remove it as a casualty
5. Continue allocation

Look at the full rules set forth by the Mixed Save method.
1. Allocate the wound to the closest model
2. Take a save if possible
3. Reduce the model's wounds by one
4. If a model is reduced to 0 Wounds remove it as a casualty
5. Continue allocation

Notice that they are identical except at one point save and allocation. As I have pointed out allocation is tied to suffering, so to suffer an unsaved wound it must be allocated and a save failed. In mixed saves this happens at the reduce the model's wounds by one step and also in same saves at the same point. You are stating that it should happen after the same step not at the same step


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 21:54:05


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
to suffer an unsaved wound it must be allocated and a save failed.
Citation needed for a same save unit.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 22:01:26


Post by: Gravmyr


Since the Same Save method is the one that changes the rules I have to say the burden of proof is on you. I have show you where suffering a wound requires allocation and a save you are the one arguing differently.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 22:15:32


Post by: DeathReaper


I have shown that suffering a wound happens after a failed armor save.

So I guess we are both correct.

In this case I think it is best to wait for the FaQ to solidify it. Until then we should take the least advantageous interpretation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/05 22:33:14


Post by: Gravmyr


No you reinforced that a wound requires both allocation and a save as the section you keep quoting points to allocation first then a save. A model's wounds cannot be reduced by one without allocation. The section about armour saves specifically speaks about a model failing it's save after allocation you have yet to show a single rule that changes this fact. I have shown where you need to allocate a wound in a challenge for it to be counted as suffered. I have shown in the Same Save method where it depicts the only difference being you have permission to make a save without location and then allocate. The Standard/mixed Save Method is universal in all other areas and the rules you keep trying to use are about that method.

Again there are two rules at work here Blast rules and Swarms and your assertion that Swarms should loose two bases to ID gives a clear bonus to one side. The least advantageous is to run it exactly as I showed as against non-ID wounds you would still take additional Wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 08:35:24


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
I have shown that suffering a wound happens after a failed armor save.

No, you haven't.

So I guess we are both correct.

No, you're not.

You haven't responded to the faults I've pointed out.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 09:10:45


Post by: Tarrasq


I'd also like to point out that with the way the Swarms rule is worded, and if you assume that suffering an unsaved wound is a consequence of failing a save (whether you agree or not), in the Same Save scenario if a single wound from a blast/template weapon makes it past the saves ALL unsaved wounds are doubled including those not originating from a blast/template weapon.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 15:52:27


Post by: Gravmyr


That is a good point. It doesn't actually say only the markers or templates are doubled.... Another reason to use the directions rigeld2 and I have put forth.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 16:42:30


Post by: Fragile


 Tarrasq wrote:
I'd also like to point out that with the way the Swarms rule is worded, and if you assume that suffering an unsaved wound is a consequence of failing a save (whether you agree or not), in the Same Save scenario if a single wound from a blast/template weapon makes it past the saves ALL unsaved wounds are doubled including those not originating from a blast/template weapon.


That is incorrect. It is only the wounds from the blast/template.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 17:25:09


Post by: Gravmyr


What Tarrasq is saying is that if you are doubling the wounds at the unit level as has been put forth the rule does not actually state that only the markers and template wounds would be doubled. pg 43 Swarms "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Marker or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." It doesn't actually limit the doubling to the marker or template wounds if you assume that they are doubled at the unit level. So if you include a marker or template weapon into a units weaponry all unsaved wounds are doubled if you assume the doubling happens at the unit level per the Same Save method.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 19:25:59


Post by: destuctir


I'm lost, who is winning?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 20:45:00


Post by: Happyjew


destuctir wrote:
I'm lost, who is winning?


Those who are following this thread for the laughs.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/06 23:17:47


Post by: Tarrasq


 Happyjew wrote:
destuctir wrote:
I'm lost, who is winning?


Those who are following this thread for the laughs.


Then again that describes every thread over 2 pages in YMDC.

Basically the debate can be boiled down to when something suffers a wound. One side saying after armor saves, the other says after allocation. Both sides are functionally the same for mixed save units, however same save allocation produces different result between the two sides.

However the results don't really matter for a RAW argument as GW is terrible with following through on their thoughts.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/07 05:36:43


Post by: Gravmyr


I was going to say any argument on the internet is about the laughs.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/08 20:14:32


Post by: Chaos Rising


I think i know how the whole thing works. When you fail all the saves you are allowed because some people can re roll their saves and then you double the wounds. Not when you suffer the wound because it has to have been failed when trying to save it to be unsaved.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 00:17:20


Post by: barnowl


 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.

I was going to leave this allone, but show me the quote that says you allocate the wound to the same model. There is no rule telling us what to do with the new as yet handled wound. We have on allocated wound and wound that is in limbo. Your side say to the same model, Sirlynchmob's side says to send it back to the pool and so far neither side has come up with a rule one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gravmyr wrote:
What Tarrasq is saying is that if you are doubling the wounds at the unit level as has been put forth the rule does not actually state that only the markers and template wounds would be doubled. pg 43 Swarms "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Marker or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds." It doesn't actually limit the doubling to the marker or template wounds if you assume that they are doubled at the unit level. So if you include a marker or template weapon into a units weaponry all unsaved wounds are doubled if you assume the doubling happens at the unit level per the Same Save method.


No, I believe this prevented by the different wound groups in the wound pool, just like rending wounds, different AP wounds, basicly any wound grouping that has special rules.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 00:32:32


Post by: copper.talos


The wound pool is calculated after the to-wound rolls. At no other time it is permitted to add new wounds to it.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 00:56:04


Post by: DeathReaper


Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 02:11:48


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.

Except that's been proven false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Chaos Rising wrote:
I think i know how the whole thing works. When you fail all the saves you are allowed because some people can re roll their saves and then you double the wounds. Not when you suffer the wound because it has to have been failed when trying to save it to be unsaved.

Not when you suffer the wound? Have you read the Swarm SR? See how it says "suffers"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
barnowl wrote:
I was going to leave this allone, but show me the quote that says you allocate the wound to the same model. There is no rule telling us what to do with the new as yet handled wound. We have on allocated wound and wound that is in limbo. Your side say to the same model, Sirlynchmob's side says to send it back to the pool and so far neither side has come up with a rule one way or the other.

It's not in limbo. A wound is allocated. That allocated wound is doubled. Model now has 2 wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 03:11:51


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.

Except that's been proven false.
No it really has not, the wound does not leave the wound pool until it is allocated.

With same save swarms you double the wounds before allocation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 03:22:56


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.

Except that's been proven false.
No it really has not, the wound does not leave the wound pool until it is allocated.

With same save swarms you double the wounds before allocation.

No, you don't. Or would you like to actually respond to my posts proving you wrong?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 03:29:46


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.

Except that's been proven false.
No it really has not, the wound does not leave the wound pool until it is allocated.

With same save swarms you double the wounds before allocation.

No, you don't. Or would you like to actually respond to my posts proving you wrong?
I responded pages ago, and you still have not proven it incorrect.

you only said something about specific vs general which does not apply in this situation.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 13:50:16


Post by: rigeld2


 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the wound is still in the wound poll when you are told to double it. Therefore Specific > General.

Except that's been proven false.
No it really has not, the wound does not leave the wound pool until it is allocated.

With same save swarms you double the wounds before allocation.

No, you don't. Or would you like to actually respond to my posts proving you wrong?
I responded pages ago, and you still have not proven it incorrect.

you only said something about specific vs general which does not apply in this situation.

How does it not apply? Are the same save rules less specific than the armor save rules?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 16:09:19


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
How does it not apply? Are the same save rules less specific than the armor save rules?
They are not in conflict.

One governs taking saving throws as a process for same save units (This process is different for mixed save units) and even tells you to "(see page 16)".

One tells you what happens when you pass or fail an armor save and how to find the SV Value.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 18:04:56


Post by: barnowl


rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
barnowl wrote:
I was going to leave this allone, but show me the quote that says you allocate the wound to the same model. There is no rule telling us what to do with the new as yet handled wound. We have on allocated wound and wound that is in limbo. Your side say to the same model, Sirlynchmob's side says to send it back to the pool and so far neither side has come up with a rule one way or the other.

It's not in limbo. A wound is allocated. That allocated wound is doubled. Model now has 2 wounds.


See, here is were you keep making the assumption that it is a second allocated wound. The rules don't tell use that itis allocated yet. As you keep pointing out that is different than a suffered wound. Not saying is it a wrong assumption just not a backed up one.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/09 22:34:22


Post by: rigeld2


barnowl wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
barnowl wrote:
I was going to leave this allone, but show me the quote that says you allocate the wound to the same model. There is no rule telling us what to do with the new as yet handled wound. We have on allocated wound and wound that is in limbo. Your side say to the same model, Sirlynchmob's side says to send it back to the pool and so far neither side has come up with a rule one way or the other.

It's not in limbo. A wound is allocated. That allocated wound is doubled. Model now has 2 wounds.


See, here is were you keep making the assumption that it is a second allocated wound. The rules don't tell use that itis allocated yet. As you keep pointing out that is different than a suffered wound. Not saying is it a wrong assumption just not a backed up one.

No, you're making the assumption that all wounds to a model must be allocated. This is demonstrably untrue.
There's no guidance implying the new wound goes to the wound pool. Therefore it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
How does it not apply? Are the same save rules less specific than the armor save rules?
They are not in conflict.

One governs taking saving throws as a process for same save units (This process is different for mixed save units) and even tells you to "(see page 16)".

One tells you what happens when you pass or fail an armor save and how to find the SV Value.

And what happens when you pass or fail an armor save is different between same save units vs the armor save rules. How is that not a conflict?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 03:24:21


Post by: easysauce


pg 43 "each unsaved wound is multiplied to two unsaved wounds"
pg 15 "allocate unsaved wounds and remove casualties: next, allocate an unsaved wound"

so the swarm suffers one ID wound from template/blast weapon, fails a save, therefore has one unsaved ID wound, which is multiplied by two to two unsaved ID wounds via swarms rule, then both unsaved ID wounds are allocated, and two casualties removed



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 03:27:54


Post by: rigeld2


There's one unsaved wound in the wound pool.
Cite the rule showing a Swarm has suffered a wound.
Allocate a Blast wound to a Swarm model.
The wound is doubled. Cite permission to move a wound back to the Wound Pool.
Str 6 vs T3 means that all remaining wounds are removed, model is RFPaaC.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 03:30:24


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
How does it not apply? Are the same save rules less specific than the armor save rules?
They are not in conflict.

One governs taking saving throws as a process for same save units (This process is different for mixed save units) and even tells you to "(see page 16)".

One tells you what happens when you pass or fail an armor save and how to find the SV Value.

And what happens when you pass or fail an armor save is different between same save units vs the armor save rules. How is that not a conflict?

Because one governs when you take a save for a unit, and the other tells you how to take saving throws. No conflict.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 04:25:12


Post by: easysauce


rigeld2 wrote:
There's one unsaved wound in the wound pool.
Cite the rule showing a Swarm has suffered a wound.
Allocate a Blast wound to a Swarm model.
The wound is doubled. Cite permission to move a wound back to the Wound Pool.
Str 6 vs T3 means that all remaining wounds are removed, model is RFPaaC.


you are reading the rules wrong, the wound pool is before unsaved wounds, which are before allocation, wound pool is on pg 14 BRB and pools all the different types of wounds, so all the str 8 blast wounds would be in one wound pool, according to pg 14,
pg 15 then says "first of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each wound being resovled. make a not of how many unsaved wounds have been caused" note there is 0 mention of wound allocation at this point
it does not mention wound allocation until the next part entitles "allocate unsaved wounds & remove casualties"
then it says "next, allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model" pg 15

you do not need to move any wounds back to the pool, why would you, there is nothing in the BRB that would say you have to put any wounds back into the pool, since saves have already been taken at this point, all you are left with is unsaved wounds from the various pools, in this case the str 8 blast wound pool. so the # of unsaved wounds from that pool is then doubled, and allocated as normal.

the swarms special rule specifically doubles the # of unsaved wounds from that weapon, RAW do not say to allocate unsaved wounds and then double them, it says to double unsaved wounds and then allocate as normal





Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 12:43:32


Post by: rigeld2


You should read the Swarm rule and then tell me why you're applying it before allocating a wound to a model.

Hint - what does "suffering" a wound mean?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 14:45:51


Post by: DeathReaper


rigeld2 wrote:
You should read the Swarm rule and then tell me why you're applying it before allocating a wound to a model.

Hint - what does "suffering" a wound mean?
Suffering a wound means failing an armor save.

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound" P.43

So if every model in the same save unit has the Swarms rule then once you fail an armor save they clearly have suffered an unsaved wound as you got the armor save from the models in the unit, and the same models have the swarm rule, thus a swarm has suffered an unsaved wound.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 19:46:58


Post by: Gravmyr


Again DeathReaper you are trying to apply half the rules in that section, it also states that the wound was already allocated. It is a single place mentioning it where every place that it states that wounds have not been allocated they have not been suffered. If you want to use that as your proof you need to show that you are allowed to do that out of order. Same saves gives you a single permission, to take saves before allocation. If you quote any rule outside of the section you are quoting a rule that uses allocation first.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 20:32:18


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
Again DeathReaper you are trying to apply half the rules in that section, it also states that the wound was already allocated. It is a single place mentioning it where every place that it states that wounds have not been allocated they have not been suffered. If you want to use that as your proof you need to show that you are allowed to do that out of order. Same saves gives you a single permission, to take saves before allocation. If you quote any rule outside of the section you are quoting a rule that uses allocation first.



Ya deathreaper how dare you quote rules from the section that it directly tells you to check, when it tells you to take saving throws.

I'm still waiting for Gravmy to show where allocating has anything to do with suffering. How exactly does a unit make a save if you never get permission to see what saves it has available, or figure out if the unit has the same saves or mixed saves. But apparently you're ok with checking for that, but don't you dare look to see if models have any SR's. Because obviously the rules on pg 16 are not relevant right?

so lets work in that first allocation under armor saves. same save tells you to check pg 16 then we follow the armor save procedure.
You allocate wounds to models
they can make one saving throw as a unit, save or fail.
Each wound failed to save against is now an unsaved wound.
Those unsaved wounds now get allocated to models.


Its either that or same save units can never make saves, Or I suppose no matter how many wounds a unit takes, it only gets to make ONE save, so at best it can save one wound?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 20:55:08


Post by: Gravmyr


OK you may need to look at pg 15 again. Same saves does not tell you to look at pg 16 to see how to take a save but to determine if the saves in the unit are the same and if it has one. Secondly, Same Saves gives you permission, and it is the only place in the entire book that does so, to take the saves first. Third, I have shown multiple times that GW considers allocation and suffering to be the same with multiple locations belaboring the point. You two are the ones that are telling people to read every section different in this case. You are adding an entire step that is not outlined anywhere but in your head. You want to make it more difficult then it needs to be. It is very simple you save first then allocate. There are not two allocation steps.

I ask you again, if suffering does not equal allocation how can you ever take an Invulnerable Save?

If you are trying to work in two allocation steps please show me in any section there are two allocation steps listed.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 21:36:35


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
OK you may need to look at pg 15 again. Same saves does not tell you to look at pg 16 to see how to take a save but to determine if the saves in the unit are the same and if it has one. Secondly, Same Saves gives you permission, and it is the only place in the entire book that does so, to take the saves first. Third, I have shown multiple times that GW considers allocation and suffering to be the same with multiple locations belaboring the point. You two are the ones that are telling people to read every section different in this case. You are adding an entire step that is not outlined anywhere but in your head. You want to make it more difficult then it needs to be. It is very simple you save first then allocate. There are not two allocation steps.

I ask you again, if suffering does not equal allocation how can you ever take an Invulnerable Save?

If you are trying to work in two allocation steps please show me in any section there are two allocation steps listed.


I'd love to hear how you account for invuln saves. Because it seems to me you are saying the unit has suffered no wounds until allocation, so they would never get a invuln save. Then you just skip their invuln saves and go right to allocating unsaved wounds.

Thus it is another rule you're side is breaking. well not breaking so much, but denying invuln saves to any unit that just gets invuln saves.

1st allocation
pg 15 1st paragraph "you will need to allocate the wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed"

2nd allocation
pg 15 3rd paragraph "allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model"




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 21:40:31


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:
Again DeathReaper you are trying to apply half the rules in that section, it also states that the wound was already allocated. It is a single place mentioning it where every place that it states that wounds have not been allocated they have not been suffered. If you want to use that as your proof you need to show that you are allowed to do that out of order. Same saves gives you a single permission, to take saves before allocation. If you quote any rule outside of the section you are quoting a rule that uses allocation first.
Then how does one, without using the rule I cited, take an armor save? Page and Graph please.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 23:37:55


Post by: Gravmyr


The Same Save rule gives you permission to take the save first which is the one and only thing that this rule does.

@sirlynchmob I have already accounted for all the rules. The same save method gives you permission to look at the units save, and only it's saves, and take them before allocation. It's states as much when it tell you to first determine the unit's save, where to look to determine it, and take them. If you are stating that the overview paragraph is telling you to allocate first, then in the case of mixed saves you should be fine with me taking two saves as it says to allocate first then save there as well. It is an overview paragraph telling you what is following then breaks it down into the two ways you make the saves. The Same Save rule gives you direct permission to break the standard rule of allocation then save. Looking at the beginning of the shooting phase section it also tells you that you must allocate first so by the rules you can never use the same save method ever.

If we are going by your reading I would actually get 2 saves versus as the beginning of the shooting phase pg 12 states you allocate and save there as well. Is that what you are saying? Getting real technical it actually states the entirety of the shooting phase twice so you have to roll once to hit,once to wound, then allocate and save the roll again to hit, again to wound, allocate again, take your save again......

@deathreaper If you actually quoted an entire rule I could actually show you something as it is you are taking part of a rule out of a section and saying that it is the only part of that section that applies..... You have pg 15 Same Save telling you directly to not use the standard method of allocation first. Notice how the Same Save section tells you to save for the unit first... not allocate? You are then saying that because in the Standard rules the wound is suffered after it was allocated and unsaved all it takes is for the wound to not be saved to be suffered. To use your own way of quoting and application of rules: p17 left side 5th block of text word 3 "no". See how not having all the text for it renders it entirely useless?

To answer your question how you take an armour save is covered on pg 16 right half 3rd paragraph "To take an armour save, roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the wound." That is how you take an Armour Save and it doesn't have the text you keep citing.

Can you show me how you can ever take an Invulnerable Save if suffering does not equal allocation?



Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 23:47:11


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
The Same Save rule gives you permission to take the save first which is the one and only thing that this rule does.

Can you show me how you can ever take an Invulnerable Save if suffering does not equal allocation?



Please tell me how, if suffering equals allocation ,can you take a invuln save when a "model suffers a wound" If you do not suffer until allocated, same save units can never ake a invuln save by your logic

The part you missed under invuln saves, they can only be taken against wounds suffered.

You mean the overview paragraph stating the general rules on how to handle same save units.

General rule allocate wounds and resolve saves

next paragraph tells us how the resolve saves part works, more specific. and after allocating the wounds.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/10 23:53:14


Post by: Gravmyr


The overview is not just for same saves but mixed saves as well as there is not a heading the same size as Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties between same saves and mixed saves, and it talks about both mixed saves and same saves in it. Secondly you can take a saving throw without allocation specifically because the same save section tells you that you can otherwise you get no save at all.


Addendum: If you are allocating the wounds first and claiming that is what is allowing you a save then there are no wounds left to reallocate as per the general rules when the wounds are allocated the model immediately suffers the wound after the save or the wound is stopped and no where does it say to change that part of the process.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 00:14:53


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
The overview is not just for same saves but mixed saves as well as there is not a heading the same size as Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties between same saves and mixed saves, and it talks about both mixed saves and same saves in it. Secondly you can take a saving throw without allocation specifically because the same save section tells you that you can otherwise you get no save at all.


Addendum: If you are allocating the wounds first and claiming that is what is allowing you a save then there are no wounds left to reallocate as per the general rules when the wounds are allocated the model immediately suffers the wound after the save or the wound is stopped and no where does it say to change that part of the process.


You claim that just lets UNITS take saves, nothing to do with models. And surely you have a rules quote saying you ignore all references to allocation at this point? are models making the save or are units?

now you just have to explain why you think its ok for a MODEL to make a invuln save against a wound suffered, without a would actually being suffered at this point according to you. You keep claiming suffer = allocate so a model with invuln can not ever make its save as its not suffering any wounds, nor is the model allocated to until you allocate a unsaved wound. or can you suffer wounds without allocation is what it sounds like you are trying to say.

Invuln saves are model based right? because they only reference models can take them. Just like swarm references a model has the rule.

Then you need to explain how that doesn't conflict with your idea that you can't check for a model with swarm until the unsaved wound is allocated to it, when you ignore allocating to models with invuln saves..

Addendum: and what magical general rule are you referring to without actually citing?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 00:18:04


Post by: easysauce


Gravmyr wrote:
The Same Save rule gives you permission to take the save first which is the one and only thing that this rule does.

@sirlynchmob I have already accounted for all the rules. The same save method gives you permission to look at the units save, and only it's saves, and take them before allocation. It's states as much when it tell you to first determine the unit's save, where to look to determine it, and take them. If you are stating that the overview paragraph is telling you to allocate first, then in the case of mixed saves you should be fine with me taking two saves as it says to allocate first then save there as well. It is an overview paragraph telling you what is following then breaks it down into the two ways you make the saves. The Same Save rule gives you direct permission to break the standard rule of allocation then save. Looking at the beginning of the shooting phase section it also tells you that you must allocate first so by the rules you can never use the same save method ever.

If we are going by your reading I would actually get 2 saves versus as the beginning of the shooting phase pg 12 states you allocate and save there as well. Is that what you are saying? Getting real technical it actually states the entirety of the shooting phase twice so you have to roll once to hit,once to wound, then allocate and save the roll again to hit, again to wound, allocate again, take your save again......

@deathreaper If you actually quoted an entire rule I could actually show you something as it is you are taking part of a rule out of a section and saying that it is the only part of that section that applies..... You have pg 15 Same Save telling you directly to not use the standard method of allocation first. Notice how the Same Save section tells you to save for the unit first... not allocate? You are then saying that because in the Standard rules the wound is suffered after it was allocated and unsaved all it takes is for the wound to not be saved to be suffered. To use your own way of quoting and application of rules: p17 left side 5th block of text word 3 "no". See how not having all the text for it renders it entirely useless?

To answer your question how you take an armour save is covered on pg 16 right half 3rd paragraph "To take an armour save, roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the wound." That is how you take an Armour Save and it doesn't have the text you keep citing.

Can you show me how you can ever take an Invulnerable Save if suffering does not equal allocation?





and you keep ignoring the aforementioned area where it says take saves, then allocate wounds... but i do agree page right after says what you say it does, however, it does not mean what you think it means, and neither proves your point.

regardless, if we do it your way, and allocate wounds to specific models, and THEN double unsaved wounds, then template weapons that do not inflict ID still would also "waste" wounds.

for example: a swarm model with 3 wounds has two template wounds allocated to them through your reasoning, which doubles to four, so the model is killed, and one wound disappears into thin air because by your logic, all four wounds were allocated to a 3 wound model.
however, four wounds cannot be allocated to a 3 wound model, since as as soon as "the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty. continue allocating unsaved wounds to the closest model" pg 15 and we had 4 wounds, not 3, so 1 is still left to be allocated.

so now with ID the reason why you must allocate the wounds to another model, is because the model that just suffered ID from the first ID template wound, is now dead and has 0 more wounds to use for allocation of the remaining ID wound.
as soon as one unsaved ID wound is allocated to the swarm model, it has 0 wounds, is removed as a casualty, leaving another unsaved id wound to be allocated.

your premise is based on the (wrong) idea that you CAN allocate more wounds to a model, then that model posses', which is 100% false in RAW


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 00:23:50


Post by: DeathReaper


Gravmyr wrote:


@deathreaper If you actually quoted an entire rule I could actually show you something as it is you are taking part of a rule out of a section and saying that it is the only part of that section that applies..... You have pg 15 Same Save telling you directly to not use the standard method of allocation first. Notice how the Same Save section tells you to save for the unit first... not allocate? You are then saying that because in the Standard rules the wound is suffered after it was allocated and unsaved all it takes is for the wound to not be saved to be suffered. To use your own way of quoting and application of rules: p17 left side 5th block of text word 3 "no". See how not having all the text for it renders it entirely useless?

To answer your question how you take an armour save is covered on pg 16 right half 3rd paragraph "To take an armour save, roll a d6 and compare the results to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the wound." That is how you take an Armour Save and it doesn't have the text you keep citing.

So if you do not allocate the wound you can not take a save?

Wait, the rules on p.15 say differently.

So using both rules you take armor saved for the models in the unit, as they have the same save. Next, since a Swarm has suffered an unsaved wound you must double the wounds.

We also know they have suffered a wound since they have taken an armor save, and as you cited P.16 tells us how to take armor saves and tells us that if you fail a save aWound is suffered.
"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 01:09:41


Post by: Gravmyr


@easysauce I'm not ignoring it I'm saying that you are simply changing the order of operations. Yes they would "waste" wounds but so does anything that generates more wounds then the unit has wounds. I'm not seeing any rule that states that can never happen, but I do see where every rule dealing with wounds in the pool has a way of dealing with it so clearly it is common enough to be addressed. You are not allocating the second wound, the first wound is doubling to two wounds. Look at mixed save units and compare that is exactly what would happen, wounds would be wasted. Whether it be because extra wounds are created after the allocation or because there aren't enough wounds to cover the whole pool "wasted" wounds have been established and dealt with. By adding ID you simply speed up the process it doesn't change anything but by doubling in the pool you are can fact be forcing models that do not have the Swarms USR to suffer wounds created by the USR possibly forcing additional wounds from Swarms to unto non-Swarms. Does that make any sense to apply wounds from a special rule onto a model without the special rule?

@sirlynchmob You seem to miss the point of the Same Save method entirely, you are specifically allowed to make a save for each wound without allocation. That same wording is what allows you to make any save, period. Without it there are no saves allowed. Under your reading of suffer = a failed save you can never make an invulnerable save at all as you can only suffer a wound after a failed save but you can't take a more than a single save per wound. All saves are model based, hell the entire game is model based. The general Shooting Sequence on pg 12, that whole side bar is the general rules for the shooting phase.

@deathreaper Look above. You have specific permission to make a save for each wound without allocation. Except they have not suffered a wound as you have not allocated the wound. The Same Save only changes a single timing issue saves before allocation. I have in fact put forth the locations that specifically tell you that suffering = allocation. You keep stating that if you ignore the allocation part of the general saves rules you are still suffering the wound after the failed save. Quote the rule from a section that does not say you allocate first that failing the save is suffering and I would at least consider your position but it doesn't exist. The only section that saves without allocation exists in is the Same Save section and it does not say anything about suffering the wound after the failed save. I again refer you to above, if failing a a save is what causes a wound to be suffered when can you ever take an invulnerable save as it requires a wound to be suffered first. I pointed out for at least the 5th time that that section also tells us the wounds are allocated first so stating that it tells you the wound is suffered after the failed save without taking into account that the wound was in fact already allocated in that section does not prove anything except that you are ignoring chunks of text.


Timing people that is what this breaks down to. The directs that rigeld2 and I have put forth work in all situations with all rules. Yours only works in this situation with a specific unit makeup. Someone earlier pointed out the argument breaks down to when is a wound suffered. Your proof is in a section where a wound has already been allocated and then the save is failed so your assumption is that the same is what makes a wound suffered. The two sections and the FAQ back up my stand that it is allocation that causes a wound to be suffered with the timing of the save irrelevent.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 01:25:14


Post by: easysauce


Gravmyr wrote:
@easysauce I'm not ignoring it I'm saying that you are simply changing the order of operations. Yes they would "waste" wounds but so does anything that generates more wounds then the unit has wounds..


no, absolutely, 100% false, you are quoting the order on save VS model for timing, then saying wounds vs unit, which is it?
pg 15 says take saves, then allocate,
pg 16 says take saves on allocated wounds,

neither gives you permission to allocate more unsaved wounds to a model then are on its profile, or to waste wounds while the unit still has eligible models for allocation

unit and model are not interchangeable, yes a unit can take more wounds then it has (ie is wiped out and hten some) but a model may never be allocated more unsaved wounds then on its profile

your logic would allow a two wound IC in front with a better save then the unit, to take say 10 saves, fail 4, and not have the wounds go to the unit,


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 01:47:38


Post by: Gravmyr


@easysauce Sorry you seem to not be following the overall order of this, have you read the entire thread? Again the second wound is not up for allocation it is created after a save and allocation. My logic does not allow an IC to soak wounds, what it does allow is a wound to become two after an allocation and a save. Please go back an look at it I have posted several times why the second wound is not in the pool but already on a model. You still haven't covered how or why you would be allowing a model without Swarms to take Wounds that are specifically created to eliminate Swarms faster..... This all applies to same save and I have shown how it would work with all unit types and save types and that it works exactly the same in all occurrences.
My logic is simple a wound is not suffered till after allocation. An unsaved wound is not suffered till after a save and allocation. It is the idea that you can doubled unsaved wounds in the pool that allows wounds to carry over onto models that do not have the Swarms USR that makes doubling in the pool make no sense.

You are right unit and model are not interchangeable so why would you allow a model USR to affect a unit?


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 01:56:04


Post by: sirlynchmob


@Gravmyr No my point has always been, first you suffer a wound, then you take your save, now you're suffering an unsaved wound.

And at the point you have unsaved wounds, they double due to swarm.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 02:01:33


Post by: easysauce


Gravmyr wrote:
@easysauce Sorry you seem to not be following the overall order of this, have you read the entire thread? Again the second wound is not up for allocation it is created after a save and allocation. My logic does not allow an IC to soak wounds, what it does allow is a wound to become two after an allocation and a save. Please go back an look at it I have posted several times why the second wound is not in the pool but already on a model. You still haven't covered how or why you would be allowing a model without Swarms to take Wounds that are specifically created to eliminate Swarms faster..... This all applies to same save and I have shown how it would work with all unit types and save types and that it works exactly the same in all occurrences.
My logic is simple a wound is not suffered till after allocation. An unsaved wound is not suffered till after a save and allocation. It is the idea that you can doubled unsaved wounds in the pool that allows wounds to carry over onto models that do not have the Swarms USR that makes doubling in the pool make no sense.

You are right unit and model are not interchangeable so why would you allow a model USR to affect a unit?


again, you are ignoring page 15, which goes save, then allocate the unsaved wounds (the # of which is doubled by swarms)

pg 15 says "first of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw...for each wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused."

since after that save, unsaved wounds have been caused, the # of those unsaved wounds on the unit is doubled due to the unit being a swarm. are you interpreting "unsaved wounds have been caused" as unsaved wounds have not been caused? because that is a wrong interpretation.
the next rule, immediately follows the above one i have quoted, setting an ACTUAL order of operation, instead of the single, solitary line you quote to back up your theory that a model may be allocated more wounds then are on its profile.

pg 15 then says "next, allocate an unsaved wound (not two, one) to the enemy model closest to the firing unit... if the model is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating wounds to the closest model until there are no wounds left, or the whole unit has been removed as casualties"

you can only come to the conclusion that the excess wounds are all put on one model, and wasted, if you ignore everything on pg 15

so if you actually read pg 15 it says make a wound pool, take saves, which result in unsaved wounds (which are doubled due to swarm rule) then allocate them one at a time till you are out of wounds, or models.

quote me the rule that says a model may be allocated more unsaved wounds then it has on its profile, because you have to do that to prove yourself right. otherwise you are just saying you are right, with no proof

the single line on pg 16 you quote "roll a d6 and compare the results to the armour save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the wound" does not prevent the resulting unsaved wound from doubling, nor does it grant an extra save after, since the wound is already unsaved, and therefore doubled due to the swarm rule. Nor does it prevent the extra wound from being allocated, nor does it say you discard any excess wounds, nor does it give you permission to have a one wound model suffer more then one unsaved wound.

the rules on pg 15, about taking saves, and allocating wounds, describe the process for taking saves, and allocating unsaved wounds,

the single rule on pg 16, and how to roll a save, is only about how to roll a save, it does not say how wounds are allocated after




Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 02:13:52


Post by: Gravmyr


@easycheese You are the one missing the part that says when "a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound", at the pool level that have not been suffered so you can't double them yet. It requires both allocation and a failed save. Quote me a rule that says you can apply all model based rules to the entire unit, which is what you have to do for a Swarm(a model based rule) to allow you to double the wounds of a pool belonging to a unit not a model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@sirlynchmob You haven't suffered a wound before you take a save in the Same Save method as that first step is to determine the save and take the saves for the unit. There is no allocation there so no suffering.


Swarm template instant deaths @ 2013/01/11 02:33:54


Post by: sirlynchmob


Gravmyr wrote:
@easycheese You are the one missing the part that says when "a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound", at the pool level that have not been suffered so you can't double them yet. It requires both allocation and a failed save. Quote me a rule that says you can apply all model based rules to the entire unit, which is what you have to do for a Swarm(a model based rule) to allow you to double the wounds of a pool belonging to a unit not a model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@sirlynchmob You haven't suffered a wound before you take a save in the Same Save method as that first step is to determine the save and take the saves for the unit. There is no allocation there so no suffering.


And that is why you are not allowing invuln saves. If you don't suffer a wound you can't take a invuln save. To take a invuln save the requirement is "whenever this model suffers a wound"

The pool never in any way implies it only applies to a unit, (lets see a rules quote on that one) I know you like ignoring this part but, every model in the unit has swarm. the wounds double upon having unsaved wounds. You're allowing invuln saves (model based rules) to apply to the entire unit, why not swarm? Then if you're going to say something about permission for saves and not swarm, then just quote anywhere that you are given permission to check for models having special rules.