Nice and simple:

Can I deploy my entire army via deathwing assault on turn 1 (if it's all deathwing), or am I restricted by the 50% on the table rule? I guess im asking if deathwing assault works in the same way as pods, in that as long as they arrive turn one, you can start in reserve.

LOL you better enter some of your army in turn one or you loose.

Also your HQ's must also have the Deathwing Assault rule in order to Deathwing Assault.

HQs wearing terminator armour gain the deathwing assault special rule. Deathwing assault allows you to deploy by deep strike on turn 1 or 2 (you choose).

I thought the wording changed on termie armour taking away the may always start in reserve clause. If so, only 50% would be able to start in reserve.

I don't have the codex to hand - the reason I ask is that it just says in Deathwing assault that "you can choose", so i'm not sure if this overrides the 50% restriction or not.

They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

here are the two rules in question:

page 65 Terminator Armour
Termi Armour confers a 2+/5++.
Termies are Bulky, Relentless, can't Sweep Advance and have Deep Strike.

Characters in Termie Armour gain Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike rules.

Page 44 Deathwing Assault
Whole unit must this rule and Termie Armour and can choose to make DW Assault. Immediately after Warlord Traits, tell your opponent that you will be making a DW Assault, and make a secret note as to which turn (1 or 2) they will come in. All units making a DW Assault auto arrive via DS on the chosen turn, no need to roll for reserves.

So, yes you can have an all DW Army and make a DW Assault buuuuuut if you do that they will all have to enter via DS on turn 1 or you loose. Simple as that

40k-noob wrote:
here are the two rules in question:

page 65 Terminator Armour
Termi Armour confers a 2+/5++.
Termies are Bulky, Relentless, can't Sweep Advance and have Deep Strike.

Characters in Termie Armour gain Deathwing Assault and Vengeful Strike rules.

Page 44 Deathwing Assault
Whole unit must this rule and Termie Armour and can choose to make DW Assault. Immediately after Warlord Traits, tell your opponent that you will be making a DW Assault, and make a secret note as to which turn (1 or 2) that unit will come in. All units making a DW Assault auto arrive via DS on the chosen turn, no need to roll for reserves.

So, yes you can have an all DW Army and make a DW Assault buuuuuut if you do that they will all have to enter via DS on turn 1 or you loose. Simple as that

that was my interpretation too.

40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

It also says things that start in transports that start off the table are not included in this percentage nor are the transports themselves.

So Technically running the right Necron or Guard list could legally start with everything off the table.

They just lose at the end of the first turn because they don't come in until turn 2.

However, with deathwing assault it says the unit MAY, not MUST, so by my reading of the rule 50% of your force has to start on the table.

Still, have them be bikes and you're all set!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
40k -no, it does not mean your entire force could be in reserves, as it states half your FORCE may go into reserve. Unless you are claiming that their presence in reserves makes them not part of your force, you are still limited by the requirement to not reserve more than 50% of your force.

Also, 3 page thread about this, not too far down.

No I am claiming that Codex trumps BRB in this case.

I am asserting that DW Assault rules is very specific and being a Codex rule trumps the 50% rule of the BRB.

Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

The DW Assault rule pg 44 of the Codex, 1st para.

Codex doesn't say they must start in reserves. BRB says that up to half of your force may start in reserve (not including models that MUST start in reserve and that models aboard a transport that must start in reserve to not count either.)

Lets forget about transports because they are not directly relevant to the DW.

I cannot find anywhere in the codex that states you must keep them in reserves, simply rules changing when you declare that it is in reserves the way DS (option not to scatter) and reserve availability (not needing to roll) works.

The only part of that, that is relevant is the reserves, there is no note about timing anywhere in BRB or DA dex that seems to indicate that it matter when you put something in reserves that would change the 50% limit.

Please quote what in the DA codex overrides the %50 rule or specifically excludes DWA from counting towards that 50%

In my area, we just decided that one should still have to field 50% on board. Not that that matters that much. just an excuse to field Land Raiders.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the rule stating more than 50% of the army may start in reserve if they are using DWA

Page and paragraph, or you dont have an argument.

The DW Assault rule pg 44 of the Codex, 1st para.

So, the part which says nothing about the 50% rule apparently overrides the 50% rule, despite meeting none of the criteria for overriding the 50% rule

Interesting argument.

I think this is a case where if it were meant to override that rule they would have put it in there, or at least put it in the IOS digital version.

RAW it's a no go sorry.
RAI... they want to sell bike models, (hence all of the teleport homers) so i doubt that they want it that way either

There is no need to specify the "50%" rule in everything that involves reserves.

There is a conflict between the 50% rule and the DW Assault rule, IF, your whole army has DW Assault AND you wish to make use of it.

In that very unique situation, the codex trumps BRB and thus can start the game in Reserve and arrive via DS turn 1

No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

The 50% rule will break the DW Assault rule in the rare case that a player fileds an ALL DW Army and wants to use it.

Lets set an example to help illustrate.
DW ARMY

HQ (Belial) in TDA attached to a DW Command SQ
Troops - 2x DW Termies (10 each)
Elites - 2x DW Knights (10 each)
FA - 3x Neph Fighters

In this Army you have 5 units that count towards the 50% rule.

According to you, only 3 of them can DW assault the other 2 must start on the table turn 1 correct?

If you are right, then remaining 2 units can no longer "choose" to DW Assault. This goes against the DW Assault rule.

This what what is called a "conflict" and the BRB is clear that in these rare cases the Codex rule wins out.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

Seconded. There is nothing in the DWA rule that says you *must* put them in reserve, only that you *may*. Therefore, they count to the 50%, so you have to have another 50% on the table somewhere before the start of the first turn. THEN they can come in from reserves on turn 1.

Easy as pie...even to a 40k-noob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

SCP Yeeman wrote:
No 40k.

If you MUST put a unit in reserve, there is no choice. DW Assault says you can choose.

If units MUST start in reserve, then they dont count toward the 50%.

If units can CHOOSE, they do count the 50%. DW Assault allows you to choose, thus counts towards the 50%.

The 50% rule will break the DW Assault rule in the rare case that a player fileds an ALL DW Army and wants to use it.

Lets set an example to help illustrate.
DW ARMY

HQ (Belial) in TDA attached to a DW Command SQ
Troops - 2x DW Termies (10 each)
Elites - 2x DW Knights (10 each)
FA - 3x Neph Fighters

In this Army you have 5 units that count towards the 50% rule.

According to you, only 3 of them can DW assault the other 2 must start on the table turn 1 correct?

If you are right, then remaining 2 units can no longer "choose" to DW Assault. This goes against the DW Assault rule.

This what what is called a "conflict" and the BRB is clear that in these rare cases the Codex rule wins out.

That looks right, and it doesn't violate anything having to do with the DWA rule. You put 2 on the table turn 1, and the other 3 in reserve. Just because they have the DWA rule doesn't mean they HAVE to use it, that's the point.

DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

Actually, I think even then they made a special note in the FAQ of how Daemon's are exempt from the 50% rule.

 jegsar wrote:
DWA is exactly the same as keeping any other unit in reserves, all units have the option of starting in reserves. You still can't put them all there you can choose. Therefore any of the units can still choose to start in reserves as long as you choose to leave at least 50^ rounded down starting on the board.

The conflict occurs when Daemons say they must all start in reserves and the BRB says that only have can. (notice the word MUST) here is an example where the codex overrules the BRB.

No, it is not. Reserves are a BRB rule that apply to all armies.

This a Codex Rule that is specific to DW, not even other units in the codex have this rule.

Regardless, I have made my case and I am not going to make this in to a XX page thread about it.

Folks can read my example and make up their own mind

Yes, and your case is flawed because you dont have a rule that overrides the reserves rule.

The argument against is clear and rules based, your argument is not one based on rules

BRB: Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

If a Codex does not say a unit "must" start in Reserve (that's Reserve, not Deep Strike, not Outflank, not any other special rule) there is no correlation, and therefore no conflict.

Im asking this because I dont have the DA codex, but as a GK player I know in my TDA rules it states:

"May always deepstrike even in missions blah blah" Im assuming the DA dex does not have this wording which would be the 1st codex without it yes? If it states "Units in TDA may always arrive via DS then I would argue they all could start in reserve, as "always" implies well...always and trumps the 50% rule. Short of that I see no argument. DW armies can only reserve 50%

I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

That's just it. GK in TDA "may" always arrive in DS. Not "must". The 5th ed Codices in this manner were based on the old 5th ed missions where some missions did not allow Deep Strike to be used. In those missions, TDA could still Deep Strike if they were in Reserve.

You're emphasizing the wrong word. May is one thing but it's followed with "always." May always includes overwriting anything that would exclude its use such as reserve restrictions. "May" simply gives it the option to start on the field as well as reserve for DS.

I can't compare "must" and "always". One is an auxiliary verb and the other is an adverb. Therefore I am comparing the right words, "must" and "may".

Except that GK Terminators may always DS.

if you have draigo and a bunch of paladins they may always deep strike (This overrides anything that says they can't).

If you stop some of the teminators from DSing you break the rule that says they may always DS.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

50% of your forces may start in reserve. Is your DWA part of your forces? "Must" it start in reserves? Yes and No

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I still stand by the fact that you determine if a model may be put in reserve during deployment per the reserve rules. DWA happens before deployment of your army. Hence by the time you would make the decision to deploy or reserve the unit must start in reserve.

Don't care, not playing a full Deathwing army (or maybe even one with a single unit), but I'd allow it and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to get ruled.

50% of your forces may start in reserve. Is your DWA part of your forces? "Must" it start in reserves? Yes and No

Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.

You're only going to get the same answers here from proponents of the oversized Deathwing Assault as in the last thread, there's a clear difference of opinion for what constitutes being forced into reserves.

@Drunkspleen

I know, but I couldn't help throwing it in.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.
.

So if I take a codex space marine all infantry (and one drop pod*) army led by Khan, who grants outflank to all units with combat tactics I can declare my units are outflanking and get around the 50% rule as to outflank I must start in reserve?

*the drop pod is there to make sure I don't auto lose at the end of game turn 1

ItsPug wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Yes, it "must" start in reserves if you have declared it to be making a Deathwing Assault prior to deployment.
.

So if I take a codex space marine all infantry (and one drop pod*) army led by Khan, who grants outflank to all units with combat tactics I can declare my units are outflanking and get around the 50% rule as to outflank I must start in reserve?

*the drop pod is there to make sure I don't auto lose at the end of game turn 1

No, because when khan allows them to outflank happens at the deployment step, while death wing assault happens immediatly after warlord traits are chosen. I am not saying you can or you can't, only that these two situations are not comparable.

Can someone quote the actual text of the relevant rule from the DA and compare it to the text of say... the Daemons dex/FAQ?
There is some logic to it in the sense that you need to declare which ones are DSing before even the roll for first turn.
This means that if the opponent wins the roll they can go first and already know your deployment or can force you to go first because they want to have last turn/more turns of shooting you.
However there is an argument that you can't choose to put more then half of them in reserves if you are able to deploy them.

You don't have to be a genius to figure this out, I don't know why the argument's gone on for more than the first couple of replies. The rules are very clear on Reserves and Deep Strike. If a unit wishes to take advantage of Deathwing Assault (with the case in point being that it doesn't have to) then the player is making the choice to place it in Reserve and it is henceforth bound by the rules of Reserve and the 50% tabletop allocation. Just because the DW Assault rule goes on to say the player chooses which turn it Deep Strikes instead of rolling for it as normal, doesn't mean the game rules for Reserve are null and void. Deathwing Assault is essentially overruling the Deep Strike rule of rolling to enter battle, not the 50% in Reserve rule. I certainly wouldn't let any player leave his entire Force in Reserve unless their rules stated that they MUST start in Reserve. In this case they do not, the player is choosing to put them all in reserve and is therefore breaking the rules.

I play Grey Knights and I have a HQ and attachment called Mordrak who can enter Reserve and Deep Strike without scatter on turn 1 if he wants to. He and his unit still count towards the Reserve allocation and the 50% rule because he's choosing to Deep Strike instead of choosing to walk onto the table. The exact same principle applies to the Deathwing.

Not that I want DA to win this argument but it's not the same. DWA is declared before the deployment step when setting up a game and states that these models DS. It happens right after the warlord trait is rolled but still before the deployment phase. Now if it said right before you start deploying models, i would agree 1000% but there is a disadvantage to the DA player having to declare not what turn but that his entire army is deep striking before you deploy and before he even knows if he is going first or second.

I firmly believe that the advantage in the DW Assault rule is simply intended to be that the player chooses when they arrive instead of having to roll them in, not that the player can put his entire army in Reserve.

The point is that units that MUST arrive via Deep Strike have no choice but to enter Reserve. If an entire army MUST arrive via Deep Strike then it's impossible for them to have 50% on the tabletop and I'd happily allow it. In the case of Deathwing Terminators however, the player makes the choice whether to start on the table or not (just like all other Terminators), and therefore you're breaking the rules if you don't have 50% of your force on the tabletop, because it's possible for you to do so.

Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

The rules says "choose to make Deathwing Assault" and with page 121 the idea that you can ignore the DWA when it comes to your 50% limit is kinda dead.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

Thank you for finding that, reason i thought differently is because i always read The Game Summery section at the back where it goes warlord, psykers, and then talks about deploying.
Then yes there is no doubt about it, you can only put half rounded up in reserves so with 5 squads at least 2 must start on the board. Can't wait for 7th when you can teleport off the board and then come back on like swooping hawks!

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 121 - determining Warlord traits is part of the Deployment section. Immediately after that you deploy forces - so there's no "in between" time.

DWA must be declared during Deployment, but before you deploy any models.

I disagree, there are absolutely undefined time periods, for example, the start of the turn is before the start of the movement phase, but in a normal turn structure you go straight into the movement phase, it doesn't matter though it is still possible and indeed mandatory for start of turn events to trigger before you are in the movement phase.

The same applies here, immediately after determining warlord traits means as soon as warlord traits have been determined, before you move onto any other game phase, you declare Deathwing Assault, if you move onto the deployment phase, you haven't declared it immediately after determining warlord traits.

Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

rigeld2 wrote:
Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

but before you get to the deployment step where you declare reserves.

And by the way, no - start of turn events trigger at the beginning of the movement phase, not before it.

pg 124, Reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

When you DWA you are declare they are deep striking and therefore choosing to keep them in reserves (note that it's not called deploying them in reserves)

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so

They are choosing to start in reserves instead of deploying as normal during the deployment phase.
They have the option to deploy to the table before the game started.
If you are rolling dice already have have setup the fortifications the game must be in progress, therefore you can only choose to keep up to half of them (rounded up) in reserves.

The 50% on the tabletop rule applies no matter which way you slice it, unless the unit's rule specifically says it circumvents it (as with the rules for units that MUST Deep Strike). You can't put an entire Deathwing army in Reserve because they don't have to Deep Strike, the player chooses to do so, it's as simple an clear cut as that.

Unless the DW Assault rule is FAQ'd to clearly make it circumvent BRB Reserve rules, I'll consider those that feel they can attempt to put an entire DW army in Reserve to quite frankly be trying to gain an unfair advantage over their opponent by breaking the Reserve rules.

I play in friendly gaming circles where people have common sense though, so it shouldn't be a problem!

If i am playing hordes and i pretty much know this is their plan from before deploying terrain.... Well it'll be a fun day for me.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Except warlord traits are determined in the deployment phase, per page 121.
Which is why I cited it. Did you even look at the page?

but before you get to the deployment step where you declare reserves.

which is still part of Deployment. Meaning by the time you get to REserves you have still CHOSEN, as part of deployment, to put them in reserves

They were not forced there, any more than declaring outflank forces something into reserves.

I think the dividing line in this argument is between those who understand language and those who don't. "Must" and "May" are two different words, no matter how you translate them.

You are declaring reserves a little earlier but where does it say you get to ignore the rules for declaring reserves?

 Celtic Strike wrote:
It also says things that start in transports that start off the table are not included in this percentage nor are the transports themselves.

That only applies to transports that MUST start in reerves, not to any transport that you choose to start in reserves.

Allright here are my 2 cents.

You can either deploy on the table or in reserve. There is no magical third spot in limbo called Deathwing Assault waiting spot.

DW Terminators can either Deep Strike normally, Deep Strike via Deathwing Assault which negates the need to roll, Start on the board, Start in a dedicated transport on the board, walk on the board from reserves, drive in from reserve in a dedicated transport.

Drop pods are not allowed to start on the board and flyers are not allowed to start on the board. Not allowed period, no choice, no may, ifs or buts. DW Terminators ALWAYS have a CHOICE.

Now that being said all these possibilities mean that they MAY start in reserve but are not FORCED. Unless there is a rule in the DA codex which states the 50% rule does not apply, there is no reason not to apply it.

While Codex does trump rulebook, nowhere does it say that the 50% rules does not apply or that Deathwing assault ignores the OTHER reserves rule besides the roll for arrival.

 jegsar wrote:
You are declaring reserves a little earlier but where does it say you get to ignore the rules for declaring reserves?

Because you are not actually declaring reserves. The book simply says "making a Deathwing Assault". You don't choose to reserve them, you choose to Deathwing Assault, which is functionally different from reserves. That's why I'm thinking you can Deathwing Assault your entire army. It's not a form of reserves, from the text in my codex...

I may be reading too much into it, but that's how it reads.

It is not functionally different, it IS reserves. Read the whole rule, and reference the DS rules which state you are in reserve, then try again

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is not functionally different, it IS reserves. Read the whole rule, and reference the DS rules which state you are in reserve, then try again

If we're going to start being dicks about it, it is functionally different. Reserves NEVER come in turn one. Deathwing Assault does. Functional difference.

If you want to be less of an ass, I'd be happy to carry on a civil conversation.

Mordrak. Try again.
Drop Pods. Try again

the point is you ARE IN RESERVES, because it tells you you are in the DS rule AND in DWA

rigeld2 wrote:
And by the way, no - start of turn events trigger at the beginning of the movement phase, not before it.

Given the recent FAQ regarding this timing issue (dealing specifically with psychic powers) I have to revise my stance on Deathwing Assault, it seems that things that happen immediately following determining warlord traits do fall within the confines of the deployment step wherein you normally declare reserves.

As such, there is no difference between declaring a Deathwing Assault or declaring a normal Deep Strike, both units at some point had the chance to deploy but declined it.

Deathwing Assault changes the way in which you arrive from reserve, not the rules on what can be put in reserve.
If your force is 100% terminators then 50% will be footing it

I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

quiestdeus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I am curious as to why drop pod armies can reserve their entire force, but DWA cannot.

Normally you would only be able to drop pod half of your army, as the units do not need to start in the drop pod -- which seems like a corollary to the DWA argument that units do not need to DWA (and can thus be started on the table instead, and thus only 50% of your units can be in reserve and DWA).

Since they explicitly FAQ'd drop pods to ignore the 50% rule I guess we're just waiting for the same sort of FAQ update to allow full DWA?

Drop Pods don't count because they must start in reserve, they have no permission to deploy on the table.

Sure, the drop pod must start in reserve, the but the unit does not. You can absolutely start a unit outside of its dedicated transport - which is why they FAQ'd in the exception.

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

I have to agree that going by RAW a player may not DWA his entire army. I don't for one moment believe that was the intention though, but was most likely an oversight on the part of the editors. I hope that this gets clarified in a future FAQ

Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

It really seems that RAW, there is nothing to override the 50% deployment rule in the DW assault rule. The DW assault rule lacks a specific statement that specifically overrides normal deployment rules.

Sorry to take a bunny trail, but I have a similar question with deathwing assault. Just got a game in yesterday where 4 units came in T1 and 3 units came in T2.

Does the "Deathwing Assault" refer to individual units or the army as a whole? From my first read of it kinda sounds like all the termies have to drop in on the same turn.

All of the terminators chosen as part of "DWA" must come in on the turn specified
Any terminators in reserves NOT as part of DWA come in on reserve rolls as normal

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Which there is not for the DW, so they dont get to be excepted.

Do not get me wrong, I agree with you. DW must keep 50% of their force on the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

Because fluff-wise, the DW is a small elite force that teleports into the thick of battle.

quiestdeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

This was not the case for drop pods.

The BRB actually covered this for drop pods, the FaQ clearly only refers to Flyers. The FaQ was clearly not talking about Drop pods.

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." P. 36

Units embarked on drop pods have always been ignored.

50% on the board is correct. DWA does not give you permission to break this rule. It is why a pure Deathwing army is much harder to play now.

The closest I have come to getting old school wing performance is 3 SB/PF squads on the table at the start of turn and Belial with 1 TH/SS squad and 1 Command Squad DS'ing turn 1.

My old setup with a DW command squad and 4 TH/SS squads. Suround and squash. The new one is not nearly as beardy but still works.

 DeathReaper wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

They also didnt FAQ in Drop Pods, the basic rules state that ANY unit embarked in a unit that MUST start in reserve does not count. Basic RB rule.

However, this was also the case when 6th was released for drop pod armies. Hence this from page 8 of the BRB FAQ:

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Just because a unit buys a drop pod does not mean they have to start in it and thus have to be ignored. I am not arguing intent or anything, I do not play Dark Angels and likely never will, I'm just pointing out that a similar situation has been ruled to allow drop pod armies to exist, it may also occur for DW armies as (and I could be wrong) I thought in the old codex you could DWA your entire force.

This was not the case for drop pods.

The BRB actually covered this for drop pods, the FaQ clearly only refers to Flyers. The FaQ was clearly not talking about Drop pods.

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." P. 36

Units embarked on drop pods have always been ignored.

What?

 Zande4 wrote:
What?

Units embarked on drop pods ignore the 50% rule. (P. 36)

 helium42 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why would that NOT be the intention? There isnt even the SLIGHTEST hint that they want you to be able to break a core 6th edition rule.

Because fluff-wise, the DW is a small elite force that teleports into the thick of battle.

That *sometimes* teleports into battle. Not *always*, fluffwise. Yes, I have read all the fluff, including every BL novel.

Units the have to deepstrike, including any units embarked upon them, were never counted. Just because DP were mentioned in an FAQ did not mean that FAQ created a new rule - it reminded you of the existing rule in this case

Correct me when I am wrong-the rule saying you may only reserve half your force is only in effect when deploying your army. It is not in effect before this, such as when your opponent is deploying their army, or before that when rolling to determine deployment, or before that when using deathwing assault, or before that when rolling for warlord trait.

It is also not in effect after you deploy your army, such on turn 1 when over half your army ends up in reserve due to some ability or power or some such.

DevianID wrote:
Correct me when I am wrong-the rule saying you may only reserve half your force is only in effect when deploying your army. It is not in effect before this, such as when your opponent is deploying their army, or before that when rolling to determine deployment, or before that when using deathwing assault, or before that when rolling for warlord trait.

It is also not in effect after you deploy your army, such on turn 1 when over half your army ends up in reserve due to some ability or power or some such.

Since you roll Warlord traits during the Deployment phase, "immediately after" that is still - wait for it.

Wait...

In the deployment phase. Just like the last thread this was discussed.

What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.
Since the steps for setting up and starting a game go as follows:

Build you Army(List making)
Roll for or Choose a Mission
Roll or Choose a Deployment Map
Deploy Fortifications, if any
Deploy Terrain
Deploy Objective Markers, if any
Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army
Seize Attempt

Start playing

What Devian is asking is since reserves are determine in the "Deploy Army" step, does it still affect things that happen prior to that step such as between the "Determin Warlord Traits" step and the "Generate Psykers" step?

FYI, I took the steps directly from page 424 of the BRB or Fist page of the Game Summary section of little rulebook.

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

40k-noob wrote:

Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army

If we're going to nit pick, the bolded can occur any time prior to deploying forces (page 418) and its "Deploy Forces" not "Deploy Army" (page 121)

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

For the record, there is zero reason to point this out. There's a deployment section (page 121) that includes both Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces. Section, phase, period of time, zebblebrot - it doesn't matter what you call it. They are part of the same step.
A for effort though - well done.

Fluffwise, well on the table next to you there is a guy playing with 100 DW and so are you, that is the entire DW army... What about my army???

RAW, sorry that is how it is written and that they must come at the same time.

Balance... do i need to explain the difference between <1 point per model for the ability to DWA? vs 2 points per model for a drop pod? yes i realize they are safer but so many 1.7ppm. about 10% extra

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Determine Warlord Traits
Generate Psyker Powers
Deploy Army

If we're going to nit pick, the bolded can occur any time prior to deploying forces (page 418) and its "Deploy Forces" not "Deploy Army" (page 121)

Also for the record, there is no "Deployment Phase."
There is a section of the BRB that is called "Deployment" but there are no phases prior to the game starting. There is only a "setting up" of the "game" or "Preparing for Battle" as the summary.
Those that say "...in the deployment phase...." are using an incorrect term.

For the record, there is zero reason to point this out. There's a deployment section (page 121) that includes both Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces. Section, phase, period of time, zebblebrot - it doesn't matter what you call it. They are part of the same step.
A for effort though - well done.

it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes it in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point to a discrepancy in the steps please feel free to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

40k-noob wrote:
it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

Page 121 proves that rolling for Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces (and therefore anything happening between the two) is part of Deployment.
Therefore it actually is all encompassing for those things - which is all I ever said.

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

So if I'm slightly inexact but my point stands I must be corrected - but if you're slightly inexact without altering your point it's "not a direct quote, so whatever". Double standards are cool brah.

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point a discrepancy in the steps please feel to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

Yup, right there in the Summary. Have you read the actual rules for that on page 418?
Any time a summary leaves doubt you should check the actual rules - it will leave fewer misunderstandings.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
it is necessary to point out because using the term "deployment phase" makes in all encompassing of anything happening before the start of the game.

Page 121 proves that rolling for Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces (and therefore anything happening between the two) is part of Deployment.
Therefore it actually is all encompassing for those things - which is all I ever said.

I can't argue with what you meant, all I am saying is the term "Deployment Phase" is not a correct term as there are no phases before the game starts.

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:
Preparing For Battle
Before you can play a game, you will need to prepare a few thing:

* First,......

* Next....

and son on.

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

rigeld2 wrote:

As for "deploy army vs deploy forces" obviously it was not a direct quote, so whatever.

So if I'm slightly inexact but my point stands I must be corrected - but if you're slightly inexact without altering your point it's "not a direct quote, so whatever". Double standards are cool brah.

Fair enough.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nevertheless, I took the steps from the BRB pg 424, so if you want to point a discrepancy in the steps please feel to let GW know, they are the ones that wrote the book.
This a direct quote from that page:

BRB pg 424 wrote:
If either player has Psykers that generate random psychic powers, they generate them now.

Yup, right there in the Summary. Have you read the actual rules for that on page 418?
Any time a summary leaves doubt you should check the actual rules - it will leave fewer misunderstandings.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

Because the 50% rule does not have a time frame. Therefore when you begin the game you are only allowed to have 50% of your army in reserve.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What I think Devian meant to ask was, at which step does the 50% rule take effect.

All of them.

where do you get that conclusion from?

Because the 50% rule does not have a time frame. Therefore when you begin the game you are only allowed to have 50% of your army in reserve.

The BRB says:

BRB page 124 - Reserves section wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

"When deploying their armies,..."

Does this not set the time frame for determining which units start in reserve and which must be deployed, to take place during the deploying your "forces" step of preparing game?
So wouldn't that mean that an all DW army that chooses to make a DW Assault is already bound to make a DS and thus not counted towards the 50% rule?

Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault is made after Warlord Traits but before the deploying of "forces" and as such are now DS'ing.

Therefor by the time you start "deploying" your armies, DW Assault Termies MUST start in Reserve because they are bound to DS.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault...

So DWA is a choice, or do they have to start in reserves?

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault...

So DWA is a choice, or do they have to start in reserves?

It is a choice, but once that choice is made, which happens before deploying the armies, then that is it, there is no longer a choice the Termies are bound DS, and by the time the deploying of armies/forces begins, for the purposes of determining which units deploy on the table and which are in Reserve, the DW Assaulting termies MUST DS.

If it is a choice they are counted in the 50% equation.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

The DWA Termies do not have to start in reserve, as you do have an option of deploying them. Choosing to put them in reserve does not exempt them from the calculation.

And back full circle

40k noob - the headinG "DEPLOYMENT" shows that it is part of deploying your forces when you choose to make a DWA

So not only is it part of deployment, it is also a choice. 2 reasons why you dont get to avoid the 50% rule.

Deathreaper, dwa termies do not have to start in reserve. Dwa termies using dwa before the deploy forces step can not change their dwa choice for deployment.

Units that fire heavy weapons can not assault. If you assaulted the turn prior, can you fire a heavy weapon?

When using dwa, there is no reserve restriction because you are not deploying your army and the only reserve restriction is when deploying your army. Later in the game, there is a restriction but said units in dwa were put in dwa with no restriction in place. When deploying your army, you can not deploy a dwa unit, not can you put him in reserve. He is using dwa already, and must keep his dwa, he can not change his choice.

So you arent deploying your army despite doing so under the heading "DEPLOYMENT"?

An interesting argument - just ignore the section title telling you what you are categorised as doing.

What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

 Akar wrote:
What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

THis has relevance to determining what the rules say...how?

This has nothing to do with the relative power level, but whether DA are allowed to break a core mechanic of 6th edition. The answer is "NO", currently

Just curious. This has gone on for a few pages now, and I can't figure out the reasoning for it going on so long. Is it that someone wants to keep going so that they're right, or that peeps are just afraid of playing against 40-50 Terminators dropping on Turn 1 giving the opponent 1 turn before getting assaulted? Why is this an issue? If they want to DS their entire army, they have just as much of an argument as not being able to. (Leaning toward them being able to, but won't comment more till I get my BRB back). If it's a tournament, then the DA players are just going to have to ask before going into the event.

 jegsar wrote:
They have the option to start on the table, so you are still limited to the 50% rule. Having said that, I wouldn't want to play a list with no heavy support options in it.

I have an all DW army. I run two units with CML and use them in the Heavy Support role.

Homer

Akar wrote:Just curious. This has gone on for a few pages now, and I can't figure out the reasoning for it going on so long. Is it that someone wants to keep going so that they're right, or that peeps are just afraid of playing against 40-50 Terminators dropping on Turn 1 giving the opponent 1 turn before getting assaulted? Why is this an issue? If they want to DS their entire army, they have just as much of an argument as not being able to. (Leaning toward them being able to, but won't comment more till I get my BRB back). If it's a tournament, then the DA players are just going to have to ask before going into the event.

Then you have missed the point of this forum. This forum helps you to, outside of a game and the pressure that brings, determine what the actual rules state, and determine then if people want to houserule it.

As a general tip attempting to ascribe negative connotations to those arguing one way, by simply guessing (theyre afraid), is a really bad idea. You frequently get people on here who will argue that army X does not get to do ability Y, despite playing that army themselves. So to say that people are only arguing against DWA being able to breach the 50% rule because theya re afraid? Unsafe argument!

FInally, WHY do you lean on there being just as much argument FOR breaking the 50% rule as against? This is a permissive ruleset, and DA do NOT have *permission* to break the 50% rule, anywhere in te rules for DWA. THis has been shown over and over. If this is simply how you would play it, then you must, per the tenets, state that - as arguing against a houserule is impossible.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have missed the point of this forum. This forum helps you to, outside of a game and the pressure that brings, determine what the actual rules state, and determine then if people want to houserule it.

I agree that this is what the forum is for. What is being done is people telling other people how it actually IS based on how they interpret an unclear rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As a general tip attempting to ascribe negative connotations to those arguing one way, by simply guessing (theyre afraid), is a really bad idea. You frequently get people on here who will argue that army X does not get to do ability Y, despite playing that army themselves. So to say that people are only arguing against DWA being able to breach the 50% rule because theya re afraid? Unsafe argument!

If I have attacked any specific Dakkaite, then please report me for breaking that rule/guideline whatever. It was an HONEST question as to WHY this is an issue. Im trying to understand the passion behind dis-allowing it. Since that is my intent, It's just as valid to ask questions so that when I get around to making a comment (if I choose to do so), I have some insight into the mind of the guy I hope to one day be sitting across a table from.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
FInally, WHY do you lean on there being just as much argument FOR breaking the 50% rule as against? This is a permissive ruleset, and DA do NOT have *permission* to break the 50% rule, anywhere in te rules for DWA. THis has been shown over and over. If this is simply how you would play it, then you must, per the tenets, state that - as arguing against a houserule is impossible.

It's in my reply (I don't have my rulebooks on me.) There seems to be this camp of people on various threads that seems to think that the Reserves and Deep Strike rule tend to blanket everything, so unless specifically addressed, it simply cannot be done unless it's in ink that every specific function of either of those rules needs to be addressed for them to apply.

Are there situations that models are placed in Reserve outside of the deployment phase?
Are there situations in the Game that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use the Reserves rule?

I'll post more, after I get my BRB/DA dex in hand to re-read the rules, as I've said before, but it does NOT hurt to ask questions that are relevant to a response when I don't understand the issue.

Except the rule isnt unclear - you do not have permission to break the 50% reserves limit, so you dont get to break the 50% reserves limit. Nowhere in the rules for DWA is there an exception stating you are ALWAYS allowed to DWA, or other such language

Thus, you cannot do so.

It is up to the "can do" side to find permission to break the 50% rule, not the "cannot do", because that is how the rules work.

Also - I wasnt saying that you had insulted people, jsut you are tryng to ascribe negative emotions (being afraid) as to the reason people are arguing. That is irrelevant to the forum topic.

FInally - your last two questions have very easy answers - "YES" (mishaps) and "you havent asked the right question" - because tehre is a difference between Deep Strike and being placed used the Deep Strike rules, such as GOI

 Akar wrote:
Are there situations that models are placed in Reserve outside of the deployment phase?

Certain models are ale to go into Ongoing Reserve (which is similar to normal Reserves). Other models (such as the Mawloc and Swooping Hawks with the Skyleap power) specifically go back into Reserve (though this may get FAQ'd to be Ongoing Reserves).

Are there situations in the Game that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use the Reserves rule?

Gate of Infinity and Skies of Blood (I think that's what it is called) spring to mind. Both use the Deep Strike rules without actually being in Reserves, however, they specify how they work, which includes using the DS rules, with some changes.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

If they're a summary and not rules, then the actual rules (which don't say what you said) are correct.

If you look at the steps on page 424 you will notice that the step for Generating Powers is before the deploying of "armies" or "forces" if you will, so the steps seem to be in order.

Again, I didn't right the book. I take a listing of steps for the preparation of a game written by the creators of such game as actually what they are, steps to starting a game.

So something must happen before forces are deployed can only ever happen after Warlord Traits are rolled for?
Could you find a rule to back that up? Note that summaries are not rules - only quick summations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, It also says "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" P. 124

Do the DWA terminators have to start in reserve?

If not then they are not ignored for the 50% calculation.

That is just it now isn't it?

The choice to make a DW Assault is made after Warlord Traits but before the deploying of "forces" and as such are now DS'ing.

Therefor by the time you start "deploying" your armies, DW Assault Termies MUST start in Reserve because they are bound to DS.

So the choice is not page during the Deployment step?
Would you mind looking at page 121 as I've cited multiple times?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And back full circle

40k noob - the headinG "DEPLOYMENT" shows that it is part of deploying your forces when you choose to make a DWA

So not only is it part of deployment, it is also a choice. 2 reasons why you dont get to avoid the 50% rule.

You are incorrect, it is not part of deploying your forces.

If you notice the steps that make up the "DEPLOYMENT" section on page 121, they are two fold.

Determine Warlord Traits
and
Deploy Forces

Deciding to make a DW Assault happens in between those two steps.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The BRB sets the steps in order on page 424.

Well, no - that's false. Is page 424 a summary of the steps, or rules for the steps?

LOL how is this false? The steps ARE in the BRB, page 424 it will say:

I never said they were rules, just steps in order for starting a game of 40K.

If they're a summary and not rules, then the actual rules (which don't say what you said) are correct.

If you look at the steps on page 424 you will notice that the step for Generating Powers is before the deploying of "armies" or "forces" if you will, so the steps seem to be in order.

Again, I didn't right the book. I take a listing of steps for the preparation of a game written by the creators of such game as actually what they are, steps to starting a game.

So something must happen before forces are deployed can only ever happen after Warlord Traits are rolled for?
Could you find a rule to back that up? Note that summaries are not rules - only quick summations.

So the period of time called "DEPLOYMENT" is not deployment?

DWA does not require the unit to start in Reserve. There is also no explicit override within it telling you they may ignore the normal limit on reserving half of your units.

Attempting to infer one from the deployment sequence really feels like Easter Egg hunting, and there is no way that I could feel comfortable attempting to claim that I could so so with my Dark Angels army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So the period of time called "DEPLOYMENT" is not deployment?

You can call any period of time anything you want.
You can call the time before a game starts, "Pre-Battle Rituals" or "Getting Your Groove On" it really doesn't matter.

What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

40k-noob wrote:
What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

So the Deployment section on page 121 - what do you refer to that as?

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.


Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

Regardless of when the CHOICE is made, it is still a CHOICE and therefore NOT a MUST. Non dedicated flying transports are the only other thing that is not a MUST but there is a specific exception to the rule for them.

 Akar wrote:
What is so powerful or scary about allowing all the DW to use DWA?

It's not when balanced. add 2 more point per model, maybe about 2 ppm and still that is only half that come in on turn 1... not all.
I wouldn't have a problem with you DSing your entire army on turn one of my entire daemon army auto came in turn one instead of only half.
Or if I you allowed me to take an extra 10 man TAC squad to balance it out but RAW, no sorry, it's a choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What you can't do is make the claim that there is a "Deployment Phase" or a "Deployment Step" as part of the preparation steps for starting a 40K game.

So the Deployment section on page 121 - what do you refer to that as?

The Deployment section of the rulebook is how I refer to it.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.


Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

I have to laugh as this thread has gone from you make the call to you make up the rules with this declaration prior to deploy forces non-sense.

notice it says "When deploying their armies" in the reserves rule not "deploying forces step" language not irreverent, GW terminology not defined, just like force weapons and FNP, Plague Zombies etc... that all needed an FAQ/Errata.

From there I will also point out it doesn't say.

Also where does "The Game" start? I would say by the time you are rolling dice you are playing the game. Therefore you rolled for your warlord trait, meaning at that time the DW did not HAVE to start in reserves and therefore it's a choice after the game started and they are not ignored for the 50% rule.

There is still nothing in the DWA rules that over-rides the only 50% of your units may start in reserve restriction.

tgf wrote:
I have to laugh as this thread has gone from you make the call to you make up the rules with this declaration prior to deploy forces non-sense.

What part is made up?

The codex rule says: "Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent...."
If you wait till your are rolling for who deploys then you have passed up your opportunity to make a DWA as you have now entered the "Deploy Forces" step.

 jegsar wrote:
notice it says "When deploying their armies" in the reserves rule not "deploying forces step" language not irreverent, GW terminology not defined, just like force weapons and FNP, Plague Zombies etc... that all needed an FAQ/Errata.

From there I will also point out it doesn't say.

Also where does "The Game" start? I would say by the time you are rolling dice you are playing the game. Therefore you rolled for your warlord trait, meaning at that time the DW did not HAVE to start in reserves and therefore it's a choice after the game started and they are not ignored for the 50% rule.

Read the "Deploy Forces" section of the BRB. It clearly states that you are deploying your army at this point and so the determining reserves occurs within the "Deploy Forces" step.

 DeathReaper wrote:
There is still nothing in the DWA rules that over-rides the only 50% of your units may start in reserve restriction.

Once you make a DWA declaration, then all those DWA units automatically arrive via DS on the chosen turn. That means these units MUST be in reserve as per the DS rules.

The Reserves rule says that any unit that MUST be in Reserve does not count towards the 50% rule.

It says "Armies are placed".

Every other situation where the 50% rule is allowed to be broken specifically exempts the unit from the rule, this does not. In a permissive rule set, you need to be allowed to do something in order to do it.

Just wait for the FAQ if you think it will come,

It wont come for several reasons, most of which is balance. No other army, including a full drop pod assault or Daemons come in full on first turn. Both of these armies are paying a premium for their units, look at drop pods, it increases a TAC squad cost by 38% before weapon upgrades.

when you pay a base of 54 points per DW and 57 per DWK then you can DS everything and maybe call it balanced.

This thread is amusing

And no, you cannot reserve DW completely because it does not grant permission to ignore the 50% reserve rule in any way, and it doesn't matter how you try to turn the facts around or looking at the deployment steps. You don't HAVE to be in reserve therefore you are not exempt from the 50% reserve rule. There is no grey area, it's straight up rules as written and intended

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.

Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

It is not irrelevant language. To assert that DWA declaration and determining Reserves both happen in the "Deployment" is both misleading and incorrect.
It gives the impression that they occur simultaneously.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

There is a "Deployment" section of the BRB and there is a "Deploy Forces" step for starting a 40k game, rules for which are found in the "Deployment" section of the BRB.

Right. And what else happens in the "Deployment" section?
Oh, Warlord traits.
What happens after Warlord traits? DWA declaration.
What section is that in? Deployment.

Welcome to what I said in my first post in the thread. Your harping on irrelevant language isn't helping your cause.

It is not irrelevant language. To assert that DWA declaration and determining Reserves both happen in the "Deployment" is both misleading and incorrect.
It gives the impression that they occur simultaneously.

It's absolutely not incorrect. DWA says you must choose immediately after Warlord traits. Correct?
What section is the Warlord traits resolved in?

First off, DWA Declaration is in the Codex and is a special rule and is no where to be found in the BRB at all so it is not in "Deployment" as that is a section of the BRB.

False. The rule includes timing, and that timing must fall during the Deployment section.

I think we are arguing two different things here. I say it is not in the "Deployment" because the actual rules is in the Codex where as you say it is in Deployment because of the timing of DWA would place it as happening between two steps that ARE in Deployment.

I will acquiesce as the distinction of whether or not it is in "Deployment" isn't as important as the fact that DWA declaration takes place before "Deploy Forces"

rigeld2 wrote:

Second, the two happen at completely different and separate steps during game preparation. DWA declaration happens prior to "Deploy Forces" and binds those models to DS.
The 50% rule of determining reserves, is part of the "Deploy Forces" step and does not apply to them because they MUST be in reserve as per the DS rules.

So all Deep Strikers must be in Reserves?

Yes, The rules for DS, 1st para, 1st sentence says so.

BRB Deep Strike Special Rule wrote:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

I think what Rig mean was: So all units with DWA must Deep Strike?

Or can they be deployed on the table?

So the deployment period-of-time is not Deployment?

Odd way to ignore rules, that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I think what Rig mean was: So all units with DWA must Deep Strike?

Or can they be deployed on the table?

The context of this discussion was on the premise that a DA army composed entirely of DW Termies, can they all make use of the DW Assault rule and start the game in Reserves.

A basic example army would be Belial and two DW Termie squads as Troops.

If the DA player chooses to he can declare his entire Army as making a DW Assault and thus they must all DS.

Obviously, I am on the "yes, they can" side.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Second, the two happen at completely different and separate steps during game preparation. DWA declaration happens prior to "Deploy Forces" and binds those models to DS.
The 50% rule of determining reserves, is part of the "Deploy Forces" step and does not apply to them because they MUST be in reserve as per the DS rules.

So all Deep Strikers must be in Reserves?

Yes, The rules for DS, 1st para, 1st sentence says so.

BRB Deep Strike Special Rule wrote:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

Man. Veil of Darkness, Gate of Infinity, how many others?

So no, your assertion is incorrect. A Deep Striking unit is not required to be in Reserves.

I might've missed it somewhere... but is DWA truly placed in Reserve?

Or, is it because they're DS'ing that the only place the could be in is "Reserve"?

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I think what Rig mean was: So all units with DWA must Deep Strike?

Or can they be deployed on the table?

The context of this discussion was on the premise that a DA army composed entirely of DW Termies, can they all make use of the DW Assault rule and start the game in Reserves.

A basic example army would be Belial and two DW Termie squads as Troops.

If the DA player chooses to he can declare his entire Army as making a DW Assault and thus they must all DS.

Obviously, I am on the "yes, they can" side.

So putting them in reserves for a DWA is a choice?

If so you can not do this as this is against the rules of only having 50% of your army in reserves.

 whembly wrote:
I might've missed it somewhere... but is DWA truly placed in Reserve?

Or, is it because they're DS'ing that the only place the could be in is "Reserve"?

DWA doesn't create a new place for units to be and during the Deploy Forces stage there is only Deployed or Reserve as options.

rigeld2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I might've missed it somewhere... but is DWA truly placed in Reserve?

Or, is it because they're DS'ing that the only place the could be in is "Reserve"?

DWA doesn't create a new place for units to be and during the Deploy Forces stage there is only Deployed or Reserve as options.

Ah... okay.

Okay... as it's written now, I'd say that you can't have an all DW army going into reserves.

Bummer... seemed odd that GW would remove probably one of the more popular tactics for DA.

Oh well... maybe I'll start spamming some landspeeders instead.

Thats not how it goes. You are able to deepstrike your whole army because...

1) You declare these units in Deathwing assault after warlord traits (before deployment)
This is Important here because doing this now binds them to deep striking. They now have no choice.

2) Deployment, reserves are declared here. Now comes the rule that any units that must deepstrike, ignore the 50% that can be in reserve.
Therefore because your terminators are now binded to deep striking, they ignore the 50%

I would like to see someone find fault in this without saying that you still chose for them to be in DWA, because that doesn't matter. You chose, before deployment, that they MUST deepstrike. They now must deepstrike and therefore ignore the 50%

So you choose for them to deep strike?
And that's not a choice for them to deep strike because...

krashton1 wrote:
1) You declare these units in Deathwing assault after warlord traits (before deployment)
This is Important here because doing this now binds them to deep striking. They now have no choice.

I would like to see someone find fault in this without saying that you still chose for them to be in DWA, because that doesn't matter. You chose, before deployment, that they MUST deepstrike. They now must deepstrike and therefore ignore the 50%

Actually it does matter.

They only must DS because you chose for them to DS...

Just like a normal unit, if you choose for a normal unit to DS, it can not enter any other way except to DS.

You are still choosing to DS and the DWA rule does not over-ride the only 50% of units in reserves rule.

Plus warlord traits are in what section in the rules again? (P. 121)

Even Warlord Traits can effect how you deploy "Warlord Traits could grant special deployment rules to part of a player's force that may affect a player's subsequent deployment of their forces." P. 121

Anything that comes after Warlord traits can affect deployment as warlord traits are determined in the Deployment section of the BRB.

Guys, why is there arguing over the term deployment? Is it not the case that the reserve restriction is " when deploying your army?" If dwa is done under the deployment heading, that means nothing, because the reserve restriction is " when deploying your army." You are not deploying your army when rolling for warlord trait after all, nor are you deploying your army when using dwa.

I am in the camp that people trying to take away a deathwing units ability to dwa before the deploy forces step, because of a different reserve rule that applies several steps later, are comparing apples to oranges. I have a rule, in addition to deep strike reserve, and my rule does not follow the rules for deploying into reserves in the deploy forces step. I thought that would be obvious.

Conversely, the counter argument seems to solely resolve around dwa being the exact same thing as a regular deep strike reserve that would be done in the deploy forces section. We're this the case, I would agree that dwa has the reserve limit applied to it--after all if when deploying your army of all deathwing, you choose to reserve all of it to deep strike you would be disallowed, because there is that restriction about reserves in place when deploying your army.

Fortunately, I am not reserving my deathwing when deploying my army, I am using dwa after rolling warlord traits but before deploying my army. At that step there is no restriction in place.

I think deviant has given a pretty good defence. Ive been following this the whole time. My gaming group allows dwa anyway but I always like to know what the public thinks. Especially since im going to use a pure deathwing army in the broadside bash in san diego.

It disheartens me to see so many of my fellow Dark Angels players argue so vehemently in an attempt to circumvent the basic game rules in order to gain an unfair advantage over an opponent.

All DWA does is allow you to choose which round your boys arrive from Reserve via Deep Strike. They are still bound by the basic Deep Strike (and therefore Reserve) rules. Choosing which turn your units in Reserve arrive is already a HUGE advantage, without people thinking they can put an entire army in Reserve, something the rulebook is clear can't happen and something DWA doesn't explicitly say you can do.

If your friendly gaming circle allows it then feel free to make use of it, but you will never be allowed to place an entire army in Reserve in a competitive game (or gainst anyone who interprets the rules in a fair and logical manner) so as far as i'm concerned it's a non issue. The sooner they FAQ it to stop people trying to break the rules, the better. You're only going to give the army a bad name.

There's no sense of sportsmanship in this game any more, it would seem...

Drop Pods, Spore Pods, Demons!

All Reserve armies that 'Never' start on the table.

So yeah, Dark Angels are a 4th army that gets added to this list. The nice thing is that if you DON'T want to use the DWA rules to the fullest, you're not forced to. Let those who know the rule play it right. I got my books back, and read the rule. I still don't understand how anyone that has actually read both rules can think that an all DWA army isn't possible. An All DW reserve army isn't allowed however, whether this is by choice design or just a random thing is irrelevant. Facts are what they are. I felt the same way about my fellow 'DA' players stating that the LS in the old RW squads was scoring, and that DA players after several FAQ's finally had to see the specific rule on pg whatever it was to be finally changed to admit it. Turns out I didn't care as long as I knew BEFORE the game that was his intent (since there are so many pure RW players...) On a funny note, it's kinda like the DA themselves. One group is loyal, the other is 'Fallen' and they both think each other are the heretics. Im virtually always in support of allowing rules that are ambiguous if it means players will play that army.

All DW units have the choice to DWA. Nothing in the entire DWA rule restricts this. Look at it as a timing thing where you choose DWA before Reserves, they can do it. Look at it as simply as the RAW of it is, Does a player have a DW unit? Is the player going to use DWA? It's as simple as that. If you think this is broken in anyway, then you aren't forced to. If you think that it somehow is restricted by the 50% rule, then you are changing the rule as printed in the DA codex. Nothing in the DWA rule restricts it's use. Before you say 'well it doesn't say I can't XXX', in this case it doesn't matter. The rule IS granting permission as it's currently stated. It doesn't have the word 'may always' like players in Group A would like, it doesn't have the words 'During Deployment' which Group B players are saying would need to be in there to prevent it's use. Either argument requires a change to the rule.

As for the reference that 'they don't roll for reserve', guess what, it's just that! Remove that line, and this thread would also have the argument of 'Well do they roll or just come in?'. This is not the only exemption to the reserve rule. The other exemption would be that they have the option to arrive via Deep Strike. Not arguing that they are placed in Reserve, but the method they get there isn't during deployment. There is simply no evidence to support that. On that note, the 50% reserve rule is not a blanket rule. It definitely has a 'timing' to it. 'When deploying reserves, players may opt to keep up to 1/2 their units in reserve...'. DWA does state that they need to be decided before you get to this step, but it doesn't restrict any units from using the DWA rule once the 50% limit has been reached.

Now I have NO problem with the DW units being in Reserve, and counting toward the limit ONCE you get to the deployment step and check to see if you have room for the 50% thing to apply. Don't sit there and tell me that because I think this is the case, that I somehow have to apply the 50% rule to DW. Im not advocating that again, the DWA rule states no such thing. It's permissive to allow it simply as written. The reason I AM mentioning it, is that DW Terminators still have the option to be kept as Reserves, like normal Terminators, but unlike normal Terminators, they don't have the option to always be placed in Reserve and by the DA Codex definition on Terminator Armor, they can't always deploy via Reserve using the normal reserve rules WHEN they get to that point. They WANT you to use the DWA rule if you're going to run Terminator Heavy, that's the whole point.

If you're going to be the guy who walks off because you don't like the RAW, then the 'sportsmanship' is on your head. Until it gets FAQ'd, they are perfectly allowed to do it. This just means that anyone who wants to play an all DWA army in reserve had better take the care to ask any TO's how it's going to be played before arriving, just like any other 'sketchy' armies where the rules are unclear. If you're going to be the guy who thinks that the Reserves is a blanket rule that affects everything then you would never be able to even take an all Drop Pod army, Demons would never be able to be played. I AM aware that these army books have rules that address their function in regards to the reserves rule or that the reserves rule itself addresses them, but the point stands, why do you allow the 'basic' rule to alter something so very basically written, when by the same argument you're choosing to not use it to modify others?

As been pointed out, if you have the Reserves/Deep Strike rule as a blanket rule, you could NEVER use the GK Summoning power unless the unit being targeted started the game in Reserve. Same would apply to Infinity gate, you would have check that the unit did indeed start the game in Deep Strike Reserve to be able to Deep Strike since these abilities do not list that this is an exemption. Necrons would never be able to use Veil of Darkness unless they were in Deep Strike Reserve. You're only making it more complicated here because where would you put the troops in the flyers that choose to Deep Strike? What if there was an ability to re-deploy enemy units (it's on my mind that there is or was at one time a unit that could do this), and it said they could put units in reserve? Would your opponent be subject to the 50% rule if you already had the max? (If there is no such rule, then ignore this part)

That's all there is to it folks. Can all DW units use DWA? It's a resounding 'Yes'

Edit(s): Stupid Comp keeps randomly hitting 'submit'

I look forward to the next FAQ proving your argument null and void :-)

If the faq makes it null and void then oh well. Its nothing for people to get there panties in a bunch over.

The rest lacks any rules citations or offers anything new to the debate; it is just a series of statements and assertions with no rules backing

You are prohibited from putting into Reserve more than 50% of your forces, apart from certain exceptions. DWA does not fall under those exceptions, so it does not

Oh, and the LS WAS scoring, as it had a specific codex rule stating it was scoring. Find the SPECIFIC codex rule stating they may ALWAYS use DWA to start in reserve, over and above the 50% limit

If it helps to give you an idea of intent, no 6th edition book has the line that used to appear allowing Terminators the ability to ALWAYS be placed in reserve. That rule has been entirely removed.

Nos, when are you prohibited from putting into reserve more than half your army?

DevianID wrote:
Nos, when are you prohibited from putting into reserve more than half your army?

In the BRB, criterias are given and DW do not match the criterias. That's the first reason.

It is a permissive ruleset. Where does it say you can? Nowhere. That's the second reason.

Nowhere does it say: "Ignore all other rules to this effect"., "Ignore all other deployment rules", "Ignore all other reserve rules", "ignore the 50% limitation on reserves", "DWA bypasses the 50% restriction for deployment and reserves".

 liam0404 wrote:
Nice and simple

Ha!

Having digested this thread and looked at several of the rules discussed, I have to say i'm inclined to agree with the camp of 50% must start on the table. As much as I would like to go smashy smashy on turn 1 with 40 terminators, I'm not sure that was the spirit in which the rule was intended. FAQ may prove us all wrong otherwise, but until it does I think i'll just play it safe and keep 50% on the table.

Can I throw another quick Q in while i'm here?

If you have characters with the inner circle rule in a unit of deathwing knights, will they also benefit from the fortress of shields rule if they have 2 knights in B2B?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are prohibited from putting into Reserve more than 50% of your forces, apart from certain exceptions. DWA does not fall under those exceptions, so it does not

The 50% rule only applies when a player deploys his army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find the SPECIFIC codex rule stating they may ALWAYS use DWA to start in reserve, over and above the 50% limit

'Units composed entirely of models with this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault.' (p44 DA Dex) Pretty specific.

Basic Vs. Advanced (pg. 7 BRB)
Basic rules apply to all models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. ... found between pages 10 and 31.
...Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules...

Reserves are found on pg. 124 under Mission Special Rules. It is not a Basic(Core) rule that applies to everything since it lies outside the range listed as to what a basic rule that applies to all models.

Some Eternal War missions use unique special rules. These confer extra abilities, restrictions, or effects onto your games. We'll explain the most common ones here...

This qualifies Reserves as an advanced rule, along with Night Fighting and Mysterious Objectives. So these rules apply to all models in the mission. By following the guideline on pg 7, we only check to see if the reserves rule applies when it specifically says to apply them, which is when a player deploys his army. We also check to see if there are any conflicts, which the reserves rule allows a player to keep a unit that should be on the board, off the board to arrive later. I'd like to point out that Deep Strike is not listed as a Mission Special rule.

Basic vs. Advanced (pg. 7 BRB)
...conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex... the codex takes precedence.

So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

So what rule is left?

Deep Strike (36 BRB)
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike Special rule.
Models in Terminator armor have the Bulky, Deep Strike, and Relentless rules... (DA Dex p65)

Do DW Terminators meet this criteria? Yes they do, since it applies to them and there isn't a conflict that hasn't been addressed created with either book.

Deep Strike (36 BRB cont'd)
When placing a unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike...

The Deep Strike rule says when placing them in reserve, the DWA rule says that a DA player declares which units are making the DWA, secretly writes down which turn all units using that rule will arrive. They arrive via Deep Strike on that turn, with no roll.

Conflicts:
Deep Strike Rule overrides Reserves because the Reserves rule says units may only be kept off the table (to arrive from a table edge.) Both rules clarify the conflict by allowing units with Deep Strike to use that method at the point they are placed in reserve, when deploying the army.

DA Dex overrides Deep Strike because it conflicts with the Deep Strike rule 'when placing' a unit in reserve as it occurs without any mention of applying the Reserves rule.

DA Dex overrides the Reserves rule because there is a conflict between when DWA is declared. Is it at the start of, or before when a player deploys his army? As written, no mention is made of it. So the conflict stands, and the DA codex overrides. What is mentioned is that after Warlord Traits are rolled, a player has to decide at this point which units are going to make use of the DWA rule. To me, this means before he gets the chance to declare he is keeping any units in Reserve. This prevents DA players from putting any of his other units in Reserve first. The reason for this is unknown.

Deep Strike is still in effect for placing the units making a DWA in Reserve, since there is no conflict between either rule there. Deep Strike units must start the game in Reserve.

The 50% Reserve rule NOW becomes a conflict when placing reserves because we have units in reserve. The DA Dex has already overridden this rule up to this point. Now any units that a player wishes to keep in reserve, which would include Terminators NOT making a DWA. The 50% rule cannot remove any units already placed in reserve, it only has conditions to put them there, so there is no conflict. Now whether those units already in reserve count toward/as the 50% does create a conflict about whether other units can be placed in reserve. My suspicion is that this is the reason that DWA are declared first. This could actually prevent an all Terminator DW player from 1/2 his army using DWA, then putting the rest in reserve, since as Nosferatu1001 said, there is no 'may always' in 6th ed. codex. (This is a topic for another thread however.)

To be fair, there is one remaining Conflict between the DWA and Reserves rule, and that is whether or not a mission uses the Reserves rule or not. Only units that must arrive by Deep Strike continue to do so even if the Reserves special rule is not being used. I would be in the camp that they would still be able to choose to DWA only as that is where the conflict is, but wouldn't care if they couldn't. This is another discussion for a separate thread and not super important since all the Eternal War missions and all the Tourney scenarios I've seen have the Reserves rule so there isn't a conflict. My guess is that Special Missions that don't have it will address it at that point.

*****
I think that covers the expanse of the and the misinterpretation that the Reserves rule is a Basic (Core) rule vs. being an Advanced(Special) rule. Im NOT opposed to them being restricted to 50%, just that they need to FAQ it to state that they are affected, which would be an errata. To restate, they are allowed to put everything in DWA, not because the rule specifically states that they get around the 50%, but because there is a conflict of rules and the priority is Codex>Advanced>Basic.

*****

 liam0404 wrote:

If you have characters with the inner circle rule in a unit of deathwing knights, will they also benefit from the fortress of shields rule if they have 2 knights in B2B?

Per the rule in the codex, they will benefit from the +1 T, so long as 2 models with the FoS rule are in base with him. He just won't count as having the rule to confer it to a Deathwing Knight who is only in base with the IC and 1 other Knight. So keep the IC in the middle if you DS, or you might end up with 2 Knights at normal T.

Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

This is funny.

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

This is funny.

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

Both written before 6th edition, therefore had to be FAQed to clarify how they work due to a new rules set.
vs.
A book for 6th edition written with all the current rules for 6th edition in place.

But, to play along, on the demons side, they specifically say that you MUST keep the entire army out and use their demon delivery system.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

It doesn't "override" the rule, perhaps that is the wrong term to use.

The Reserves rule itself exempts DS's because they MUST start in Reserve per the DS rules in the BRB.
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

DWA binds those units that are making a DWA to DS'ing prior to "Deploying your army" and thus are "exempted" from being considered.

If you take a unit that has chosen to DWA and then place it on the table you ARE breaking the rules of the game because that unit "automatically DS" onto the table as per the DWA rule.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

It doesn't "override" the rule, perhaps that is the wrong term to use.

The Reserves rule itself exempts DS's because they MUST start in Reserve per the DS rules in the BRB.
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

DWA binds those units that are making a DWA to DS'ing prior to "Deploying your army" and thus are "exempted" from being considered.

If you take a unit that has chosen to DWA and then place it on the table you ARE breaking the rules of the game because that unit "automatically DS" onto the table as per the DWA rule.

What you don't have though is permission to use this rule and break the 50% rule as the DWA rule is a choice, not a must. It would take an FAQ to allow you to do so.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

This is funny.

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

Both written before 6th edition, therefore had to be FAQed to clarify how they work due to a new rules set.
vs.
A book for 6th edition written with all the current rules for 6th edition in place.

But, to play along, on the demons side, they specifically say that you MUST keep the entire army out and use their demon delivery system.

Neither of those rules have in them anything that says that they override the 50% rule now do they? Of course not, they were written prior to the 50% rule even being in effect.
So how can anyone make the claim that these rule do just that?!?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

It doesn't "override" the rule, perhaps that is the wrong term to use.

The Reserves rule itself exempts DS's because they MUST start in Reserve per the DS rules in the BRB.
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

DWA binds those units that are making a DWA to DS'ing prior to "Deploying your army" and thus are "exempted" from being considered.

If you take a unit that has chosen to DWA and then place it on the table you ARE breaking the rules of the game because that unit "automatically DS" onto the table as per the DWA rule.

What you don't have though is permission to use this rule and break the 50% rule as the DWA rule is a choice, not a must. It would take an FAQ to allow you to do so.

But what you do have, is permission to DS and DS'ers are units that MUST start in Reserve and thus are: "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

40k-noob wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

This is funny.

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

Both written before 6th edition, therefore had to be FAQed to clarify how they work due to a new rules set.
vs.
A book for 6th edition written with all the current rules for 6th edition in place.

But, to play along, on the demons side, they specifically say that you MUST keep the entire army out and use their demon delivery system.

Neither of those rules have in them anything that says that they override the 50% rule now do they? Of course not, they were written prior to the 50% rule even being in effect.
So how can anyone make the claim that these rule do just that?!?

...Did you not even bother reading my post?
I clearly state that they were written for 5th, whereas Dark Angels were written for 6th. Both your examples were FAQed to clarify how they should function now, whereas Dark Angels have no such FAQ and were written without such a qualifier in spite of being written for 6th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

It doesn't "override" the rule, perhaps that is the wrong term to use.

The Reserves rule itself exempts DS's because they MUST start in Reserve per the DS rules in the BRB.
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

DWA binds those units that are making a DWA to DS'ing prior to "Deploying your army" and thus are "exempted" from being considered.

If you take a unit that has chosen to DWA and then place it on the table you ARE breaking the rules of the game because that unit "automatically DS" onto the table as per the DWA rule.

What you don't have though is permission to use this rule and break the 50% rule as the DWA rule is a choice, not a must. It would take an FAQ to allow you to do so.

40k-noob wrote:
But what you do have, is permission to DS and DS'ers are units that MUST start in Reserve and thus are: "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where, in DWA, does it *specifically* state it overrides the 50% rule?

The 50% RULE has to be overridden. Same as being in an Assault vehicle does not let you assault on the turn you come in from reserves, DWA has no SPECIFIC allowance to *always* place the models in reserve.

This is where your conflict falls over - you have decided that DWA is specific, when it is pretty damn general - iit only mentions Reserves, and not the specific rule within Reserves which prohibits you from placing mroe than 50% o the army into reserve

Find a specific allowance to place more than 50% of DWA models into reserves, and you are golden,

Devian - During "DEPLOYMENT", as the section title tells you. IF you have something new to add, stop trying to be cute and add it. I understand your attempt at a timing argument, but it has been discussed and refuted, and you remain ignorant of this refutation.

This is funny.

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

Both written before 6th edition, therefore had to be FAQed to clarify how they work due to a new rules set.
vs.
A book for 6th edition written with all the current rules for 6th edition in place.

But, to play along, on the demons side, they specifically say that you MUST keep the entire army out and use their demon delivery system.

Neither of those rules have in them anything that says that they override the 50% rule now do they? Of course not, they were written prior to the 50% rule even being in effect.
So how can anyone make the claim that these rule do just that?!?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
So NOW we come to a conflict of special (advanced) rules. Does DWA allow units to go above and beyond the 50% allowance? It's listed in the codex as a Special Rule, so it MUST override one printed 'in this rulebook'. Which includes Mission Special Rules which covers Reserves.

What portion of the DWA overrides the 50% requirement?
There's no conflict (ie - DWA is silent on the matter) therefore there's no overriding.

It doesn't "override" the rule, perhaps that is the wrong term to use.

The Reserves rule itself exempts DS's because they MUST start in Reserve per the DS rules in the BRB.
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

DWA binds those units that are making a DWA to DS'ing prior to "Deploying your army" and thus are "exempted" from being considered.

If you take a unit that has chosen to DWA and then place it on the table you ARE breaking the rules of the game because that unit "automatically DS" onto the table as per the DWA rule.

What you don't have though is permission to use this rule and break the 50% rule as the DWA rule is a choice, not a must. It would take an FAQ to allow you to do so.

But what you do have, is permission to DS and DS'ers are units that MUST start in Reserve and thus are: "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so"

...Did you not even bother reading my post?
I clearly state that they were written for 5th, whereas Dark Angels were written for 6th. Both your examples were FAQed to clarify how they should function now, whereas Dark Angels have no such FAQ and were written without such a qualifier in spite of being written for 6th edition.

Sorry my comment was directed at those that keep saying " where does DWA say it *specifically* override the 50% rule?"

Truth is most if not all rules will RARELY have explicit text or words overriding other rules. It would just be too tedious and would result in a very large amount of text.
Can you image the size of the rulebook, if every rule, had to also include a list of other rules it overrides? Not to mention it would make it dull read at best.

The rulebook writers have done what can reasonably done by adding those disclaimers on page 7 about advance vs basic and codex vs rulebook.

40k-noob wrote:


Sorry my comment was directed at those that keep saying " where does DWA say it *specifically* override the 50% rule?"

Truth is most if not all rules will RARELY have explicit text or words overriding other rules. It would just be too tedious and would result in a very large amount of text.
Can you image the size of the rulebook, if every rule, had to also include a list of other rules it overrides? Not to mention it would make it dull read at best.

The rulebook writers have done what can reasonably done by adding those disclaimers on page 7 about advance vs basic and codex vs rulebook.

That makes sense, and on the whole I agree with you. In this case though, I think there needs to be more to allow Deathwing to be fully in reserve.

40k-noob wrote:

You first.

Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

This is trivial. No part of Drop Pod assault overrides 50% rule. There is no need, because anyone who has read Deep Strike rules properly has found the following sentence in it:: Page 36, Deep Strike
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored. .
So 50% restriction is still very much in place. The amount of units that you count for it might very well be zero though. Or not.

40k-noob wrote:
Where in the Daemonic Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

Again, trivial. Deamonic Assault doesn't override 50% rule at all. It just specifies that all units must start in Reserve (paraphrased). Again, there is no need for it if you have read the Reserves rule. Page 124, preparing reserves:
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.
Again, 50% Reserve restriction is still in place. The amount of "other" units allowed to be in Reserves is 0 in this case (assuming pure Daemon army).

40k-noob wrote:
If you can find me those "specific" words or combination of words that say something to effect - "this rule overrides the 50% reserve rule set forth in the BRB" then i will show you where in the DWA rule it *specifically* overrides the 50% rule.

I showed you the specific rules that state units eligible for Drop Pod assault or Daemonic Assault are not counted for the 50% limit.
So are you now willing to give me where specifically in the DWA rule does it say that they're not counted for the reserve limit?

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


Where does it say that permission to deep strike means you must start in reserve? Does that mean Jump Pack marines have to now? Perhaps I just missed this page?

The DWA rule binds those units to DS'ing prior to the "Deploy Forces" step where you determines which units are in Reserve and which are deployed on the table.

Jump troops are not bound to DS'ing prior to "deploying your army " and so are not ignored.

This is only slightly different from Drop Pods.

DP are bound to DS prior to the "Deploy Forces" by their special rule from inception, where as DWA units are bound to DS at the "space" between Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

So are you now willing to give me where specifically in the DWA rule does it say that they're not counted for the reserve limit?

See above.

40k-noob wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:


Where does it say that permission to deep strike means you must start in reserve? Does that mean Jump Pack marines have to now? Perhaps I just missed this page?

The DWA rule binds those units to DS'ing prior to the "Deploy Forces" step where you determines which units are in Reserve and which are deployed on the table.

Jump troops are not bound to DS'ing prior to "deploying your army " and so are not ignored.

This is only slightly different from Drop Pods.

DP are bound to DS prior to the "Deploy Forces" by their special rule from inception, where as DWA units are bound to DS at the "space" between Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

So are you now willing to give me where specifically in the DWA rule does it say that they're not counted for the reserve limit?

See above.

And again, you are choosing to use the rule, whereas for other things that ignore this rule there is no choice involved.

40k-noob wrote:

The DWA rule binds those units to DS'ing prior to the "Deploy Forces" step where you determines which units are in Reserve and which are deployed on the table.

Yet still under the heading DEPLOYMENT. You know, where DEPLOYMENT is decided. Or are you still making the same poor timing argument that has been debunked throughout this thread?

40k-noob wrote:
This is only slightly different from Drop Pods.

Drop pods say MUST start in Reserve. Please show the SPECIFIC rule that states DWA MUST start in reserve. Page and paragraph, as you have consitently ducked this.

40k-noob wrote:
DP are bound to DS prior to the "Deploy Forces" by their special rule from inception, where as DWA units are bound to DS at the "space" between Warlord Traits and Deploy Forces.

By the user, making a CHOICE, during DEPLOYMENT, to put them in reserves. So, now Rigeld has had to show you the standard required (the words MUST appearing tends to be a requirement) care to show the SPECIFIC rule in DWA that means they MUST start in reserve?

ANy chance?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ANy chance?

All this has been asked and answers have been stated before by me and a couple others.
If you do not agree, then say you disagree.
Just please stop asking the same questions over and over again.
You are just going to get the same answers.

In the future i wouldnt be surprised if GW where to rule that you could do this. (reserve all deathwing assaulters) However since there is no clear intention in the Dark angels codex that would garnt the permission to do it or the guidelines on how it would be done then for now they do not bypass the BRB rules on reserves and reserve numbers, if they where to choose to arrive turn one or two.

Shoot they can't even buy drop pods to bypass this rule.....

The key I think most are sticking on is CHOOSE... You have a choice and quite frankly I think GW dosent want people to be TFG who hides his stuff on turn one. He** they might even change the deamonic assault rule someday.

The only thing in the codex that is required to start in reserves are the fliers...IIRC

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ANy chance?

All this has been asked and answers have been stated before by me and a couple others.
If you do not agree, then say you disagree.
Just please stop asking the same questions over and over again.
You are just going to get the same answers.

He's after a valid answer, which you still have not provided. Drop Pods, Daemons and Flyers all MUST start in reserve and do not count for the 50% rule

Drop Pods can never start the game deployed on the table
Daemons can never start the game deployed on the table
Flyers can never start the game deployed on the table
Deathwing can... So deathwing do not have to start in reserve so do not ignore the 50% rule

Reserves page 124 "During deployment, when delcaring which units are kept in reserve..."
as per page 121 and each mission in the rulebook Deployment begins with rolling Warlord traits and ends with the first turn
So DWA is declared during deployment.

40k-noob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

ANy chance?

All this has been asked and answers have been stated before by me and a couple others.
If you do not agree, then say you disagree.
Just please stop asking the same questions over and over again.
You are just going to get the same answers.

Ignored the specific again I see. Try actually answering them

I have provided specific refutation to every point you have made, and you so far have NOT proven your case. You lack 100% any rule whatsoever that lets you full reserve a DWA army.

Actually provide a SPECIFIC rule stating you can break the 50% rule, or retract your statements

40k-noob wrote:
Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

The part that says Drop Pods ALWAYS enter play using the Deep Strike rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

The part that says Drop Pods ALWAYS enter play using the Deep Strike rules.

So how do DW Assaulting units ALWAYS enter play?

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

The part that says Drop Pods ALWAYS enter play using the Deep Strike rules.

So how do DW Assaulting units ALWAYS enter play?

Nice loaded question there...

Terminators in the DA book can utilize the DWA assault rule, or they can be deployed on the battlefield.

They do not have to start in reserves as there is an option to deploy them on the battlefield.

Therefore they are not exempt from the rule that says you can only reserve half of your units.

I agree with 40k noob but not with any of his reasoning. Yes you can put an entire dw army into dw assault. Why ? Because the 50% rule is not active when you dwa. It is not done during deployment and therefore the restriction on how many units you can deploy in reserve is irrelevant.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Where in the Drop Pod Assault rule does it *specifically* override the 50% rule?

The part that says Drop Pods ALWAYS enter play using the Deep Strike rules.

So how do DW Assaulting units ALWAYS enter play?

The same way Assault Squads with jump packs who have CHOSEN to deep strike ALWAYS enter play. By deep strike, after being declared to be in reserves during deployment, and complying with the 50% rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I agree with 40k noob but mother with any of his reasoning. Yes you can put an entire dw army into dw assault. Why ? Because the 50% rule is not active when you dwa. It is not done during deployment and therefore the restriction on how many units you can deploy in reserve is irrelevant.

as per page 121 and each mission in the rulebook Deployment begins with rolling Warlord traits and ends with the first turn, as declaring which units are carrying out a DW assault is done after rolling for Warlord traits, DWA is declared during deployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I agree with 40k noob but mother with any of his reasoning. Yes you can put an entire dw army into dw assault. Why ? Because the 50% rule is not active when you dwa. It is not done during deployment and therefore the restriction on how many units you can deploy in reserve is irrelevant.

Re-read Page 121 and then read when choosing to DWA happens.

You dwA after warlord traits before you deploy your force. The restriction only comes into effect when you are deploying your force as per page 124. During preparing reserves which does not apply to dwa as that choice has already occurred. A more interesting and actually debatable question would dwa units count towards your unit allowance for reserves in a mixed army?

I think some of the confusion is coming from people assuming that the so called "50% rule" has anything to do with deep striking at all. The "50% rule" refers to the amount of units (rounded up) that can be held in reserve.

W'hen deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

Units making a DWA are not held in reserve. Here is the specific quote:

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive
via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no
need to roll for reserves.

I think the DWA rule trumps the the big book rule because it creates a different situation for not deploying troops, other than holding them in reserve, and the big book rule deals exclusively with untis being held in reserve.

 helium42 wrote:
I think some of the confusion is coming from people assuming that the so called "50% rule" has anything to do with deep striking at all. The "50% rule" refers to the amount of units (rounded up) that can be held in reserve.

W'hen deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later.

Units making a DWA are not held in reserve. Here is the specific quote:

Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive
via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no
need to roll for reserves.

I think the DWA rule trumps the the big book rule because it creates a different situation for not deploying troops, other than holding them in reserve, and the big book rule deals exclusively with untis being held in reserve.

If they aren't held in Reserve they're deployed. Since those are the only two options available for Deploy Forces and DWA doesn't create a new one.

Helium - read the actual DS rule, and the first line. The bit where it states you must be in Reserve. Your entire argument has been raised and refuted previously

Fling -youre making the same refuted argument as 40k has had to fall back on. DEPLOYMENT is a clue as to what you are doing in that entire section

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Helium - read the actual DS rule, and the first line. The bit where it states you must be in Reserve. Your entire argument has been raised and refuted previously

I have read the deep strike rules and I do believe that the DWA rule creates a different situation.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

DW units do not have the DS special rule. They have the DWA rule which allows them to arrive in almost the same fashion as DS, but without rolling to scatter, and without rolling for reserves. DWA is clearly different from the more typical form of DS in that your models are not actually held in reserve (they do not roll for reserves and they come in on the turn specified by the player) and they do not ever roll to scatter.

When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve).

Units that DWA are never placed in reserve. They must be set aside before normal reserves are announced, and I feel that this is further evidence that they are not bound to the "50% rule" that units being held in reserve are held too.

Yes we are in the deployment section but rolling warlord traits is not part of deploying forces and neither is deathwing assault. Prove that deathwing assault is part of deploying your forces. Which would have mean that you can't roll off for who deploys first...

helium42 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Helium - read the actual DS rule, and the first line. The bit where it states you must be in Reserve. Your entire argument has been raised and refuted previously

I have read the deep strike rules and I do believe that the DWA rule creates a different situation.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

DW units do not have the DS special rule.

Page 65. Have you read the relevant entries in your codex before debating the rules?

helium42 wrote: They have the DWA rule which allows them to arrive in almost the same fashion as DS, but without rolling to scatter, and without rolling for reserves.

Now you are DEFINITELY making things up. They have the DWA rule which states tehy DEEP STRIKE on the nominated turn. They definitely DO scatter, as nothing modifies the DS rules.

helium42 wrote:DWA is clearly different from the more typical form of DS in that your models are not actually held in reserve (they do not roll for reserves and they come in on the turn specified by the player) and they do not ever roll to scatter.

None of the above is actually true. 1) They are definitely in reserve, as the game a) defines only two possible states, and b) the rules for DS require it. This is indisputable. I have covered that they do scatter.

helium42 wrote:When placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve).

Units that DWA are never placed in reserve. They must be set aside before normal reserves are announced, and I feel that this is further evidence that they are not bound to the "50% rule" that units being held in reserve are held too.

See above. Nothing you have said correlates with the actual rules.

Now you are DEFINITELY making things up. They have the DWA rule which states tehy DEEP STRIKE on the nominated turn. They definitely DO scatter, as nothing modifies the DS rules.

You've got me here. I don't know why I was mentally adding Belial's Tactical Precision rule to all DWAs, other than my brain is fried from a long day at work. That certainly hurts my argument a bit.

That and the fact the unit DOES have the DS rule?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes we are in the deployment section but rolling warlord traits is not part of deploying forces and neither is deathwing assault. Prove that deathwing assault is part of deploying your forces. Which would have mean that you can't roll off for who deploys first...

Might I suggest you read page 126 to 131, where it lists the missions and the steps for a game?

THE ARMIES - Choose armies as detailed on page 118
THE BAtTLEFIELD - Determin deployment map (see page 118),...
DEPLOYMENT - Before deploying their forces players should roll for their warlord traits (see page 111) and then deploy as on page 121
FIRST TURN - blah blah

Determining units held in reserve is done during deployment, which as per the rulebook consists of everything after rolling for warlord traits right up to the time a player takes the first turn, so if Deathwing assault occurs after warlord traits but before the first turn of the game then it occurs during deployment, which coincidentally is the same time as when you declare normal reserves.

When does the game start? does it start when rolling the die to determine mission or does it start at the start of the first players turn?

Yes i am going some where with this but I would like an unbiased answer.

This many pages for something so simple?
You can have 50% in reserve. Doesn't matter what turn they come in on. Units that must start in reserve (flyers) are the only exception with the minor addition of embarked units.

Without having any rules to look at (or the time to read through 6 pages), I would only want to know if Deathwing units, after a Deathwing assault is declared, are allowed to be placed on the table.
If all Deathwing units must enter play via reserves, then it should be fine for more then 50% to go.
If each unit has the option of going into reserves or not, then the 50% rule should be in effect.
I'll have to look at my friend's codex before I can be sure though.

that is the argument... DW units can start on the table, if you choose to have that unit do a DWA then it enters via DS.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
This many pages for something so simple?
You can have 50% in reserve. Doesn't matter what turn they come in on. Units that must start in reserve (flyers) are the only exception with the minor addition of embarked units.

Without having any rules to look at (or the time to read through 6 pages), I would only want to know if Deathwing units, after a Deathwing assault is declared, are allowed to be placed on the table.
If all Deathwing units must enter play via reserves, then it should be fine for more then 50% to go.
If each unit has the option of going into reserves or not, then the 50% rule should be in effect.
I'll have to look at my friend's codex before I can be sure though.

Here is the rule, word for word since you don't have the codex handy:

DA Codex page 44 Deathwing Assault wrote:
Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault.
Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn.
All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn -- there is no need to roll for reserves.

Eh.. can we not quote huge chucks of codices here? The forum rules and all?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Eh.. can we not quote huge chucks of codices here? The forum rules and all?

That's more of a guideline that a rule really.

BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

Quoting an entire rule is fine in a situation like this, where the function and phrasing needs to be examined.

We discourage people from quoting large sections of chapter and verse in response to folks just asking for rules, in place of buying a codex or rulebook.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

what does the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph?

That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW the last clause of that rule, that's the bit that says they are in reserves. They are in reserves but don't have to roll to come out of it. That means they are subject to the normal reserves limitations of 50%.

How are those units arriving from Reserve?

They're Deep Striking with no roll required.

what does the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph?

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph.

Added the underlined for emphasis.

Compare it to P. 44 DA codex: "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn"

So to be able to DS they need to all have the rule and start in reserve.

and DWA arrives via DS.

Seems clear that they are, in fact, in reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Oh, cool story bro!
So if I declare a unit is Deep Striking they don't count either?! Awesome!

In case you hadn't guessed, that's sarcasm. The answer to your question is "they don't count towards the 50%" - now please, make your point.

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

Well since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

The "Game" in essence or in spirit if you will starts when two or more players agree to play.

The technical "game" i guess starts at Choosing your list since it seems that is listed first in the The Game Summary on page 424.

Honestly I do no have an exact answer for you.

Premise 1: Since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

Can we agree on premise one?

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

That is not what the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph Ignoring the fluff sentence.

40k-noob wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Before you answer that, please answer my question of, when does the "game start"? when you roll the dice to determine mission or when the first player's first turn starts?
First, last, and only question before i make my point.

The "Game" in essence or in spirit if you will starts when two or more players agree to play.

The technical "game" i guess starts at Choosing your list since it seems that is listed first in the The Game Summary on page 424.

Honestly I do no have an exact answer for you.

I agree with this,
The game starts before rolling for warlord traits. It also says

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.

well the game started then you choose to put them in reserves when you choose to DWA them. the only exception and it is explicitly stated is that units that start in transports that must start the game in reserves do not count towards the 50%.

In addition, I know we are not examining RAI but the obvious reason for this wording doesn't have anything to do with the amount you can deep strike but that you are declaring which units and deciding which turn said units come in on before the other player makes any decisions based on deployment, and before you even know who is going first or second.

If you disagree try to figure out a better way to word the timing for this to not allow more then half to DS and to do this before any dice are rolled to determine who goes/deploys first.

Someone said earlier something about DA not having drop pods, just to let you know they do have them and they are cheaper then some other pods i have seen. So yes you can DS your entire army if you want, and DWA the one unit not in a drop pod since everything rounds up.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Since reserves must start the game in reserves the game has to start sometime after units are put into reserves, otherwise nothing could ever deep strike.

Can we agree on premise one?

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

That is not what the Deep Strike rule say in the very first sentence first paragraph.

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve." P.36 BRB first sentence first paragraph Ignoring the fluff sentence.

Yes, yours is exactly correct - I interpreted his question and answered what I thought was the relevant part of that sentence (you'll notice that the second half of it is what I said).

40k-noob, I see what you are getting at, if you deep strike you must be in reserves. Unfortunately that is the chicken before the egg. You choose the option to avail of DWA and enter from reserves by DS.

You put a unit into reserves and it can deep strike but at no point was there no choice to deploy them on the board. So the unit only "must" be in reserves after you decide to put it there as it is deep striking.

Normally Terminators can walk on the table edge if they want when they are put in reserves. In this case all that is different in DWA is that you must come in by DS.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That they must start in Reserve?

I'm not sure what your point is.

So what does the Reserves rule say about units that must start in reserve?

Last question and I will make my point.

Oh, cool story bro!
So if I declare a unit is Deep Striking they don't count either?! Awesome!

In case you hadn't guessed, that's sarcasm. The answer to your question is "they don't count towards the 50%" - now please, make your point.

The Codex explicitly gives the player permission to declare any unit that is "entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault."

There is no limit on this rule other than the unit or units must have TDA and have the DWA rule.

In a basic Army List, Belial and two DW squads as Troops, the plaer can declare all three ( or two in joining the IC) as making a DWA, so long as he does it in the time frame set by the rule.

The player then proceeds to "Deploy Forces" but finds that his army are all DS'ing automatically.

Now does that break any rules?

I say no because the DWA rule forces theose units to DS as noted by the DWA rule "All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike..."
This, by rule, is taken out of the player's hands, they DS "Automatically." The player cannot even change his mind anymore (rules wise at least) because those units are on Auto now.

Because, the DWA declaration takes place before the player has to "deploy Forces" is the sole reason this is valid.

Anyway, going to sleep. will follow up tomorrow.

They don't need to start the game in reserves though.. so it's breaking the rule i pointed out after you told me when the game starts.

The big clue here I feel is as stated earlier "ANY unit composed entirely of models with TDA and tne DWA rule." The key word here is the word ANY, which to me means up to an including ALL DW units. I'd like to think GW would have added "up to 50% of units composed entirely of models wtth TDA and the DWA" or something similar if DW termies had to follow the 50% rule, but considering how many typos and errors the DA codex already had, that's clearly giving them too much credit. As it is, I'll wait for the inevitable FAQ...

40k noob, you're just scraping to justify your position. Do you need to be right that much?

The fact it comes in at a specific time has no bearing on the fact they are in reserves, every unit automatically arrives turn 4. These guys turn up automatically turn 1 or 2, that they don't behave exactly like a normal unit in reserves is just that they have a special rule. This rule dictates exactly when they arrive just like the brb dictates when a unit in reserves must arrive on the board by.
The player has no way to change it just like every other player cannot influence when their reservers will show up. Once you've written down turn 1 or 2 it's out of your contol. .

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
The big clue here I feel is as stated earlier "ANY unit composed entirely of models with TDA and tne DWA rule." The key word here is the word ANY, which to me means up to an including ALL DW units. I'd like to think GW would have added "up to 50% of units composed entirely of models wtth TDA and the DWA" or something similar if DW termies had to follow the 50% rule, but considering how many typos and errors the DA codex already had, that's clearly giving them too much credit. As it is, I'll wait for the inevitable FAQ...

Why would they add in a reminder for reserves every time a unit has a rule that allows it to come in from reserves?
Any unit can be put in reserves that doesn't mean that it overcomes the 50% rule. Just like Typhus's plague zombies rules "any" means that some can while others don't have to, you can place any of your units with DWA in reserve, all of them if you have less than 50% in reserves when doing so but there is no clear allowance to break the 50% rule. Their typos aren't so bad as they have forgotten whole sentences that you must hang your hat on a single vague word.

General limitations require an allowance, gw are usually clear in their rules that remove limitations. SW HQ's, DA HQ units that don't take up force org charts, Drop pods in reserve, Ahriman and witchfire, Dante and deep strike, flyers in reserve, etc etc

Ferrum - the word "any" does not override a "you cannot", which is what the 50% rule is.

40k - so, again, where does it SPECIFICALLY override the 50% rule? It does not

Your claim is that by putting it in DS reserve it MUST then be in reserves so cannot count. Which is exactly the same argument any player putting any unit in DS reserve can state.

You are still making a timing argument, the exact same timing argument that has been refuted at *every* step. You are undwer DEPLOYMENT and DEPLOYMENT is where restrictions on DEPLOYMENT occur.

My biggest gripe is people pointing to "immediately after choosing Warlord traits" somehow translating to the creation of a new phase of the game before deployment, thus freeing you up to label your DWA as "forced" into deep striking and immune to the 50% rule. The reason the rule explicitly states immediately after choosing Warlord traits is that if you wait any longer, you will now know a) who is deploying first and b) if you are deploying second, you will know exactly what and where your enemy is deployed. That would be a game-breaking balance nightmare for DWA. Thinking you can violate the 50% rule with DWA is so mind-boggling that I am convinced the people arguing for it don't actually believe it themselves, they just want to attempt flimsy rules lawyering to give themselves an advantage until the next FAQ ruins their fun.

You can ABSOLUTELY choose to make a Deathwing assault with every single one of your Deathwing units. You just have to have an equal number of non-Deathwing units in your list that can deploy on the board to satisfy the 50% rule.

The game begins on the first turn. Everything before that is simply setting up the game.

So if i dwa i auto go first and neither player can generate psychic powers? As that is the ONLY way i cam be limited by the 50% rule. Here's the order guys:

1) roll warlord traits
2) roll psychic powers
3) roll off for who goes first
4) player A deploys his forces and may put up to 50% in reserve.
5) player B deploys his forces and may put up to 50%in reserve.

So for the 50% clause to effect dwa it must be part of 4 or 5 as it occurs immediately after 1 which means we miss out those intermediate steps. How do you reconcile that with your interpretation?
.
reserve

Same timing argument, discredited repeatedly. Try reading through the thread, you are adding nothing new.