Hi i ask the question because i see so much love for 40k and i understand why it has a prominent video game franchise on multiple platforms,
but i have friends who reminice about the days where there where tons of Warhammer fantasy players and how its the best tabletop game ect.
but these days when i finally can afford to get into it the player base is near nil.
everyone is on 40k.
sure 40k looks cool i love the video games too, but something about fantasy just calls to me.
i was never up to speed with the game as a kid it was just stuff i saw in hobby stores that looks amazing but was very pricey so my folks never bought me any.
i have to ask, WHAT HAPPENED?
if the game was so great why is it dying?
why has GW not tried harder to resurrect it to its former glory?
i mean even the MMORPG is being shut down now.
i hear a lot thats wrong with 40k that its unbalanced and parts are broken, but i don't hear anything bad about fantasy.
seriously people don't even recommend fantasy when i told them in store i was interested in war gaming, its all about 40k and warmachine here.
so i ask again what happened? where did all the love go?
theres 40k events all the time at my local goodgames store but only 1 short one once a year for fantasy, seriously i see more stuff about blood bowl then fantasy.
is it just as simple as medievil table top just went out of fashion?
or is it obvious and i just dont see it?
am i odd for liking fantasy over 40k?
No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance. The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life It really comes down to your local area.
40k is more popular in general, which I think is due to it being more 'unique'. There are plenty of similar fantasy universes around in games, movies, books and whatever, but 40k's style and fluff is much more distinctive.
The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.
It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).
The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.
jonolikespie wrote: The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.
It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).
The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.
mini numbers and time to paint is ok for me, the price is kinda painful but its like that in 40k too.
i heard 8th is the best time for fantasy, is there really so much hate for the new change.
DnD did something similar in 4th ed that people hated they over simplified it suddenly and now its like a new game, is what your saying the same?
do you think it will pick back up?
im still going to play it but i really hope if comes back to life. hell i heard the makers of total war will be making a fantasy RTS im keen to see that total war is very popular so that may help rekindle.
8th edition changed many aspects of the game. Premeasuring was introduced and charging was nerfed. This dramatically changed the tactics. Taking more models was rewarded. Magic was buffed to the extent that it could win the game on its own. These changes upset vets, and many people left the game. (This has been known to happen when there are changes in games. There has been an exodus from Malifaux with the new rules.)
The increased number of models is both costly in terms of time and money. It takes a long time to assemble and paint all of the models. They also cost a lot of money. With GWs price hikes, Fantasy armies can be very expensive. For example witch elves are now 10 dollars each. Many people run units of 30. That's 300 bucks for a single unit.
Many people see more value in other games. 100 to 150 dollars buys you into most skirmish games. It is more manageable to assemble and paint the force. There is usually room for conversion as well. The game play can be just as compelling, and many skirmish games have campaign rules to advance your character over time.
edit: I see that jonolikespie beat me to the punch.
Iron_Captain wrote: No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance. The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life It really comes down to your local area.
It really does vary greatly based on where you live, when I lived in Arkansas Fantasy was the most popular game, now I'm in Maryland Warmachine/Hordes is the most popular game. I'd say there are 2-3 times the amount of WM/H tournaments than 40k and Fantasy put together. I haven't seen a Fantasy game played since moving to MD.
that and GW's greed and changes are upsetting players.
personally i feel that GW are greedy as hell their stuff most certainly isnt costing anywhere near as much as they charge to manufacter and ship, 3 skullcrushers for $91 is slowed imo.
you can buy them recast same quality for $12 shipped without a pretty box i say this to draw attention to the price difference.
sure large squads cost a bit more but for single models the price is really bad.
personally i see the price turn most prospective players away.
if GW really want increased profits they should drop the prices, lower prices mean increased sales and new players that equals increased profits, i dont see why companies dont see this.
The big problem with 8E was that all the army books have been trickling out instead of all being released at once. The first few new army books went up against the best (and worst) of the old books, and seemed terribly unbalanced. But as more and more new books came out, those of us who stuck with it discovered the new books were actually pretty well balanced against each other if not against the old books.
The not-so-slow increase in prices isn't helping though. $180 for a single core unit (The $60 box of Witch Elves contains 10 minis for a per-mini cost of $6, not $10) really puts a crimp in the number of people willing to start the game. And without new players, the game WILL slowly die off.
It's a question I ask sometimes. Now that I've been playing WH40K for a while I wanted to see what else is around, I've always liked the look of WHF.
However, no one plays it. Not in the GW stores and not in the local gaming stores.
I assume it's still strong, as with Games Workshop's tendancy to drop it likes it's hot, if thing don't sell (how long did Gorhica last), so it must still sell, but no one 'seems' to play it.
Even the local GW store stocks WH40K products mostly, and all the cabinate 'display' models are WH40K.
privateer4hire wrote: 22cthulu, There seems to be a decent amount of WHFB at DropZone in Glen Burnie, if you're in that area.
Really? I play at Dropzone. I'm the guy with the Purple/Gold Cygnar. It's true I only go in ever other Saturday but and a couple of Fridays but I've never seen a Fantasy game. Maybe I just keep missing them or they're playing in a different part of the store from me, but in my experience it's 80% WM/H, 15% 40k and 5% Infinity/Flames of War.
I'm not interested in it because you need so many damn models to play, way more than 40k.
I also think the idea of formations is a huge turnoff. Terrain is one of my most favorite parts of the game, and most units can't fit on/in any of the terrain bar the largest of hills in Fantasy. I don't think I've ever seen a Fantasy game where the terrain got used to any great effect, and I've never seen one in person where the terrain had been given ANY kind of aesthetically pleasing setup. Forest elves that march in formation strikes a sour note to me, and I want them to break up and filter through the woods like the guerilla fighters I think they should be.
Still, Fantasy has been on the rise in my area, rather than the reverse. If it keeps going like that, I'll have to cave and buy an army eventually. Probably ogres.
Vulcan wrote: The big problem with 8E was that all the army books have been trickling out instead of all being released at once. The first few new army books went up against the best (and worst) of the old books, and seemed terribly unbalanced. But as more and more new books came out, those of us who stuck with it discovered the new books were actually pretty well balanced against each other if not against the old books.
The not-so-slow increase in prices isn't helping though. $180 for a single core unit (The $60 box of Witch Elves contains 10 minis for a per-mini cost of $6, not $10) really puts a crimp in the number of people willing to start the game. And without new players, the game WILL slowly die off.
Wow I really got the price wrong on the elves.
This being said, I do not think I was wrong on everything. The balance is off. Ogre Kingdoms and Dark elves are head and shoulders above Tomb Kings and High Elves. Those are all new books. Beastmen which was one of the later 7th ed books is very weak. They designed it for 8th, but it is still really bad in comparison to other army books.
8th edition did a lot of changing to Fantasy, as has been touched on here, (just from some reading, so not sure how accurate it my take is) there is a huge focus on the magic phase, the movement phase has complicated and become less reliable, A BSB is more or less mandatory, breath weapons where nerfed, there was also a massive cut in army specific magic items (which clashes with fluff) to name but a few. There was also a massive addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to 40k.
On a none game play note their was also a cut in the content of the army books.
privateer4hire wrote: 22cthulu, There seems to be a decent amount of WHFB at DropZone in Glen Burnie, if you're in that area.
Really? I play at Dropzone. I'm the guy with the Purple/Gold Cygnar. It's true I only go in ever other Saturday but and a couple of Fridays but I've never seen a Fantasy game. Maybe I just keep missing them or they're playing in a different part of the store from me, but in my experience it's 80% WM/H, 15% 40k and 5% Infinity/Flames of War.
Agreed that WarmaHordes, 40k and Infinity are big players there.
There's a couple of larger fellas and a skinnier fella with blond hair and glasses who are there just about every time I've been there.
Add them to about 3 or 4 other guys who field Bretonnians and Dark Elves regularly---again I only know what I've seen.
I only used to come up on weekends since it's an hour's drive.
WHFB is a much, much better game system than 40k. No argument. Just look at the amount of whinging in the 40k part of the forum/internet, as compared to the WHFB section. Of course, there's still some complaining about WHFB (as there should be, because there are some genuine issues), but no way near as much as 40k (because there's no way near as many issues).
There's nothing inherently "wrong" with WHFB and it's not "worse" than 40k, it's just less popular. Why? Well, kids find guns cooler than swords. 40k therefore sells better and therefore GW gives it more attention.
Sad, but that's the way it is.
SaintofDaemons wrote: There was also a massive addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to 40k.
You mean 40k has an addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to WHFB. 6th Edition took whole heaps of things from 8th edition WHFB, and often made them worse.
Hmmm... I do not think that it was 'too many changes, too fast' that hurt Fantasy.
Locally a largish number of folks that had been playing Fantasy switched to Kings of War when WHFB 8 came out - it was not that the rules had changed, it was that they did not like the rules at all, at all.
And the price kicked it in the teeth - you can get the print Kings of War rulebook, which includes all of the core army lists, for the price of a single army book for WHFB.
Balance in KoW is very good. And most folks are continuing to use the same miniatures that they used to play WHFB.
The price on models is hurting Fantasy as well - increasing the price by halving the number of models did not go unnoticed.
But I am biased, it has been almost two years since I purchased any GW at all - and that was terrain models at a going out of business sale.
But I have been playing two or three games of Kings of War every week. So I have been getting my fantasy mass combat fix.
Okottekoneko wrote: all it seems i can do is invest and hope it picks back up.
anyone in Victoria that can tell me if there are any good cons or events fantasy related in Melbourne?
fyi i live in ballarat.
Try Kings of War. The rules and army lists are free and it seems to play a lot quicker and cleaner then WFB, and pretty much supports your WFB models. See if you can get a mate to try it out with their WFB army...
Ravenous D wrote: 1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
This. WHFB has way too many models that are nothing more than wound counters on a giant block of infantry. Even if you buy third-party models and avoid paying GW's obscene prices you still have to build and paint all of those boring unit fillers, and since they have to fit into nice neat blocks your opportunities for interesting conversions are pretty limited. 40k (and similar games) may have the same problems with per-model price but at least you have a lot fewer of them in your army.
I also think that the recent surge in historical plastics and beginner-friendly rulesets from Warlord etc have had an effect in reducing the player base.
Historical games used to be (unfairly) seen as the preserve of old men in dusty church halls, with their home-printed versions of whatever overcomplicated system they'd been playing for the last 50 years, so if you wanted a 'mass battle' game, then Fantasy was pretty much the go to ruleset.
So whilst KoW is certainly providing direct head-to-head competition, I think that Hail Caesar, Black Powder and Pike & Shotte are also helping to drain away Fantasy's prospective playerbase.
someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.
perhaps thats part of the issue too, maybe the shift in player ages has hurt the game too, say many older long time players just dont have the time anymore to play and have dropped off and there just wasnt enough appeal to the younger wargamers in fantasy to have them invest.
i hvae to admit tho they dont do much to try and advertise and make it more appealing to the next gens do they, warhammer 40k everywhere but barely any fantasy.
also i was in my local store yesterday grabbing a cube of dice so when i am away i can sit with my younger brother and try a learn the game with some shoddy paper minis, and when i was in the shop waiting to be served i had a look at the warhammer wall and there was no fantasy there at all they have 2 full bookshelves of 40k and half of a tiny one with some fantasy on it tucked in the corner with a fridge on one side and herocliks on the other, i suppose this is because of the lack of players in my area, but its kept far away from the 40k and warmachine minis people are going to come in looking at wargames and not even see fantasy, this would explain why the playerbase may not be growing in my local does anyone else know any places that do this too?
Nothing wrong with fantasy, 8th is by far and large the best edition to date. Having said that its a high modelcount game regardless of what army you play (when compared to 40k) and its simply more expensive.
Okottekoneko wrote: someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.
That's actually a very good point, in my area the average age of a 40k player seems to be anywhere from 12 to early twenties while the few fantasy players around range from early twenties to like 40.
With GWs recent mindset that they are selling toys to kids that really doesn't help the fantasy community at all.
I know in my area 40k is infinitely more popular than Fantasy, which sucks because I've always preferred Fantasy since it seems to involve more tactics and have a lot more diversity than 40k where half of your armies are fighting for the same side (to say nothing of the proliferation of Space Marine armies).
I've heard that outside of the UK, 40k is more popular because sci-fi and tanks and lasers, while in the UK and Europe Fantasy is more popular, but I can't cite anything. I heard once years ago that in North America, the sale of Space Marines alone was more than all of Fantasy combined.
I don't get it myself. Fantasy seems like the superior game and I'd much rather play that, but I went with 40k because of how many people there are who play it at the FLGS. No point in starting Fantasy and having nobody to play with.
Okottekoneko wrote: someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.
I doubt this is a very big factor. 40k's obsession with swords is one of the few things that sets it apart from other scifi universes, and assault units/armies are popular.
It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
Tannhauser42 wrote: It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
While at the same time not an entirely inaccurate model for battles up through the 17th Century.
Heck, they used to arrange arquebusiers into battles that were sixty men wide and sixty men deep. The boyos at the back might never fire a shot.
Kings of War avoids that by treating the entire unit as a single model.
I don't get it myself. Fantasy seems like the superior game and I'd much rather play that, but I went with 40k because of how many people there are who play it at the FLGS. No point in starting Fantasy and having nobody to play with.
This is the problem. Everything else attributes to this situation. Less veterans are playing, or at least not playing it publicly, which leads people to think there would be no one to play with. I know several younger people (and others besides) who would love to play fantasy in my area, but there just isn't a player base for it in public. It's also kind of a catch 22, GW is all about 40k and anyone who thinks otherwise is daft or blind, but when you spam people with "Space Marines, Imperium, Horus Heresy!" all the time people are most likely to go with that than something else. The model thing is another, as some people just don't like blocks of models, the individual feel of each model in 40k seemingly more appealing. I don't tend to play fantasy much anymore as, even though I started in 6th edition the game has traveled too far away from what I enjoyed as a kid.
If WHF were just cheaper or easier to get into I might give it a chance, but as it is now, it's so much more expensive and time-consuming than even 40k is, and considering the rules aren't that much better...no.
Like others have said, blatantly halving the contents of boxes while keeping prices about the same is complete bs and only serves to push more people away. Collecting a Fantasy army was already a daunting task to begin with but now I'm spending a minimum of $70 to build just a single core choice for my Dark Elves? feth that.
I like the idea. I bought the 8th edition rules to read through. My problem is a lot of the models for the core troops on most of the armies are or at least look old as hell. Now if GW gives fantasy some love after there done spazing on 40k then my interest would perk up much more.
Where has the love gone?
Look at LOTR. Lotr players get nothing. They are the ones with no love and no care! My favourite game is lord of the rings and every day I see it slowly fade.
Now with warhammer: Plenty of new stuff, expansions, atencion and players.
Yes gw may no longer "love" warhammer as much as they did but its not that bad compared to lotr.
Fantasy is doing well in my area, but understand the complaints. Biggest issue I see with the games decline was the lack of books for almost a year after the new edition. The game was left to languish with abuses from older books and no new armies to build interest. How many games come out that are doing well after a year with zero support. Even great games fade after that point as people get bored. No new army books caused the scene to get stale and people lost interest.
I prefer this edition over previous ones because I was horrible at guessing ranges. Plus I don't miss the arguments over whether or not a unit was within 1/8th an inch or not.
Okottekoneko wrote: someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.
I doubt this is a very big factor. 40k's obsession with swords is one of the few things that sets it apart from other scifi universes, and assault units/armies are popular.
Yes, but you must admit that WFB gives you far less opportunities to make 'pew pew' noises. Think that's probably the main reason for the disparity in popularity.
Going by current trends, WFB players enjoy 8th edition while it lasts. 9th edition will no doubt focus heavily on a massive £50-70 plastic kit for each army, that drops pie-plates on those big units of infantry and kills anything under them on a 2+. The only sensible option will be to field at least 2 of them.
Okottekoneko wrote: someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.
I doubt this is a very big factor. 40k's obsession with swords is one of the few things that sets it apart from other scifi universes, and assault units/armies are popular.
It is a big factor, just don't take the expression literally. Nowadays, it's cool for a 12 year old to be playing CoD and Halo, hence kids are a lot more attracted to sci-fi universes, with guns and tanks. Yes, 40k is quite assault based, but it's the universe and the aesthetics that brings new, young players into the game, not the way the game is played.
The Shadow wrote: Yes, 40k is quite assault based, but it's the universe and the aesthetics that brings new, young players into the game, not the way the game is played.
But 40k is incredibly assault-focused aesthetically, even more so than in the actual gameplay. The game is pretty solidly focused on shooting right now and assault units are forced into niche roles (other than a few death star gimmicks), but practically every fluff story/picture/etc you see has screaming guys in power armor killing stuff with chainsaw swords. It's the iconic image of 40k, and one of the biggest things that sets it apart from Halo/Star Wars/etc.
This is my opinion, and I'm a member of the Nation Rifle Association. That does NOT mean my opinion is worth a damn, it just means that I 'know' firearms and can look 'outside the box,' so to speak. If you'll allow me:
It's this new generation of Call of Doody players who think that slapping a 'clip' of 'bullets' into an M4 'machine gun', which is painted in camouflage paint and mounted with a reaction, red dot sight, and running through an urban block firing from the hip and knifing noobs is cool and 'so army,' and all that crap.
Or, they're armed with a .50" calibre anti-material rifle, that weighs 27ibs, and sprints through a forest and some how 'snipes' people 'HEAD SHOT' while on the move.
They're the type that see an AKM, or AK74 rifle in a film and shout, 'SICK AK47, bro!'
Yes, guns are a big factor in my opinion. 'Kiddies' prefer 'pew pew.' It's much more satisfying to blat away with bolter armed SPESS MAHREENS then it is to fight a battle with pike, sword, and musket, or 'hand gun' as GW calls them.
But saying that, I play WH40K, 'cos I prefer a scifi, military setting, but I would at least like the chance to play WHF.
The 'too many models' doesn't hold with me, nor do I think it would for anyone who plays Imperial Guard, or Tyranids, or anyone who plays Apocalypse.
Anyway, as I say, my opinion's not worth anything, it's just what I see.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm not interested in it because you need so many damn models to play, way more than 40k.
I also think the idea of formations is a huge turnoff. Terrain is one of my most favorite parts of the game, and most units can't fit on/in any of the terrain bar the largest of hills in Fantasy. I don't think I've ever seen a Fantasy game where the terrain got used to any great effect, and I've never seen one in person where the terrain had been given ANY kind of aesthetically pleasing setup. Forest elves that march in formation strikes a sour note to me, and I want them to break up and filter through the woods like the guerilla fighters I think they should be.
Still, Fantasy has been on the rise in my area, rather than the reverse. If it keeps going like that, I'll have to cave and buy an army eventually. Probably ogres.
This.
Surprised nobody has pointed out a well documented, massive flaw in 8th - Cavalry. They got nerfed!
20 heavily armoured knights, or more, charging full tilt at a block of infantry from the flank or rear, will not break them, because of steadfast and the fact that the infantry outnumber the cavalry?
Very bizarre.
In KOW, the opposite is the case - you get rewarded for flank and rear charges.
But then again, 40k is pretty meh to begin with, and Fantasy doesn't improve enough on that to really matter. At the end of the day its the same old meaningless complexity and clunky gameplay that we slog through already in 40k.
Now KoW on the other hand, as has been mentioned many times in this thread, is really something special
Tannhauser42 wrote: It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
While at the same time not an entirely inaccurate model for battles up through the 17th Century.
Heck, they used to arrange arquebusiers into battles that were sixty men wide and sixty men deep. The boyos at the back might never fire a shot.
Perhaps that's the problem. WFB is still too rooted in historical/Napoleonics gameplay. Potential players see the Lord of the Rings movies (for example) and hope to see that play out on the tabletop, but instead they get the 17th century (but with dragons!). .
Kings of War avoids that by treating the entire unit as a single model.
The Auld Grump
Didn't GW do that with the War of the Ring rules? It's been a long time since I last read them, but I remember reading them and thinking "GW needs to do some of this with WFB."
40k may outsell fantasy in my local area, but there are MORE fantasy players at the two clubs I frequent (I'll assume the 40k players all play at the local store - most of the fantasy players in my area - some of the podhammer crew included - are over 25 and prefer a beer with their mandollies).
I prefer 8th ed fantasy to 6th ed 40k.
I didn't play 4-7th ed fantasy - but I played RT-5th ed 40k.
40k just stopped being a game I wanted to play when 6th ed came around. When you have to resort to cheesy builds JUST to draw with the newer armies, then the concept of game balance has not just flown out the window, but it has also passed the cow on the way (this cow was on its way over the moon).
Ravenous D wrote: 1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
This. WHFB has way too many models that are nothing more than wound counters on a giant block of infantry. Even if you buy third-party models and avoid paying GW's obscene prices you still have to build and paint all of those boring unit fillers, and since they have to fit into nice neat blocks your opportunities for interesting conversions are pretty limited.40k (and similar games) may have the same problems with per-model price but at least you have a lot fewer of them in your army.
Just would like to point out that those boring unit fillers and the considerable area they take inside a huge block of infantry actually are something that can be turned around into mini dioramas, and that is something you will struggle to have in skirmish units. So I only agree with you to a certain extent. Fantasy can be very rewarding for converters and the only limitation is your own imagination.
Didn't GW do that with the War of the Ring rules? It's been a long time since I last read them, but I remember reading them and thinking "GW needs to do some of this with WFB."
Yes, they did. Actually, War of the Ring is pretty good, the only real issue is the massively flagging fanbase as the core game was so uninspiring at release. Well, there'salso a few balance issues here and there but on the whole it's by far the best rule set GW do IMO.
There's been a few folks mentioned the size of units are a turn off, as well as terrain not adding much. For me, it's the size of the units that make movement tactically challenging, and having to manoeuvre a bus of 40 night goblins through terrain in order to get them to hit the opponent at the right time, in the right place.
That's where a good chunk of the strategy and tactical depth comes in. Those elements are missing in 40k.
It's the price! I'm looking at the Orcs at the GW website and it seems like you need at least £300 to get a 2000pt army [the most popular points level at my clubs]. People won't want to drop that much money, particularly when they can get their TG fix at maybe a eighth of that price.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm not interested in it because you need so many damn models to play, way more than 40k.
I also think the idea of formations is a huge turnoff. Terrain is one of my most favorite parts of the game, and most units can't fit on/in any of the terrain bar the largest of hills in Fantasy. I don't think I've ever seen a Fantasy game where the terrain got used to any great effect, and I've never seen one in person where the terrain had been given ANY kind of aesthetically pleasing setup. Forest elves that march in formation strikes a sour note to me, and I want them to break up and filter through the woods like the guerilla fighters I think they should be.
Still, Fantasy has been on the rise in my area, rather than the reverse. If it keeps going like that, I'll have to cave and buy an army eventually. Probably ogres.
This.
Surprised nobody has pointed out a well documented, massive flaw in 8th - Cavalry. They got nerfed!
20 heavily armoured knights, or more, charging full tilt at a block of infantry from the flank or rear, will not break them, because of steadfast and the fact that the infantry outnumber the cavalry?
Very bizarre.
Yeah, steadfast should really have been cancelled by flank and rear charges, just like the rank bonuses.
To be honest though, historically cavalry wasn't actually that effective against massed infantry. The only times it succeeded was when the infantry in question lost their cool, or when they had support from infantry (hammer and anvil tactic).
Fantasy is less popular because the buy in and investment into the game is much higher than 40k (which is saying something, as, in relation to the competition, 40k has a fairly large buy-in investment cost to begin with).
While the comparisons are fairly relative, in many scenarios, it can cost 150-200% to build a same points value sized Fantasy army as compared to a 40k one.
I think new players find this daunting. It's the number one reason the guys at my local game store give as to why they can't drum up more interest in fantasy. It's *really* expensive.
chromedog wrote: 40k may outsell fantasy in my local area, but there are MORE fantasy players at the two clubs I frequent (I'll assume the 40k players all play at the local store - most of the fantasy players in my area - some of the podhammer crew included - are over 25 and prefer a beer with their mandollies).
I prefer 8th ed fantasy to 6th ed 40k.
I didn't play 4-7th ed fantasy - but I played RT-5th ed 40k.
40k just stopped being a game I wanted to play when 6th ed came around. When you have to resort to cheesy builds JUST to draw with the newer armies, then the concept of game balance has not just flown out the window, but it has also passed the cow on the way (this cow was on its way over the moon).
Bingo.
Same reason Im looking into fantasy currently, 40k and much of the crowd that plays it now a days are like ADHD kids on redbull with multiple sets of tambourines that get real upset over the word "No", a good majority of them don't even need dice anymore, Im convinced I could entertain them just as easily with some tinfoil and jingly keys. It's a sad state of affairs when Goobhammer takes over.
As for fantasy, the armies price out the same, but the model counts are insane, I stopped counting after 220 with a vampire counts army. It's going to be awhile before I get that up and running, let's just hope they don't add any more force org slots to 40k until then.
Aftermath. wrote: In my area Fantasy is dead. I haven't seen a game played in over a year. 8th edition killed it.
In my area, 8th edition completely revitalized WHFB. Prior to that, stores in North Metro Atlanta might have 2-3 tournaments (combined) in a year, and each tournament might have 6-8 people show up. Even three years out from the advent of 8th, just my preferred FLGS alone will have 4-6 tournaments per year, and we typically have 20-odd show up for each.
I think the reason for the game being relatively successful here is because the store owner really supported it. He loved the game, built 3-4 armies, and would play lots of games himself. Having the game out and being played encouraged more people to start playing themselves.
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Tannhauser42 wrote: It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
I just wanted to point out that the bolded part hasn't really been true since the advent of 8th edition, supporting attacks, Horde formations, and Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.
Aftermath. wrote: In my area Fantasy is dead. I haven't seen a game played in over a year. 8th edition killed it.
In my area, 8th edition completely revitalized WHFB. Prior to that, stores in North Metro Atlanta might have 2-3 tournaments (combined) in a year, and each tournament might have 6-8 people show up. Even three years out from the advent of 8th, just my preferred FLGS alone will have 4-6 tournaments per year, and we typically have 20-odd show up for each.
I think the reason for the game being relatively successful here is because the store owner really supported it. He loved the game, built 3-4 armies, and would play lots of games himself. Having the game out and being played encouraged more people to start playing themselves.
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Tannhauser42 wrote: It can be hard to get someone into Fantasy, as a game, at times. Most people will certainly love the look and lore, but the game itself can turn people away. Just imagine someone's reaction when they see you moving around blocks of troops, and then you tell them that only the guys in front actually get to do anything, and all the guys behind are just there for extra wounds. Kind of takes the steam out of it a bit.
I just wanted to point out that the bolded part hasn't really been true since the advent of 8th edition, supporting attacks, Horde formations, and Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry.
Yep. Saying that the soldiers in the back don't do anything is highly erroneous. They do a lot of important things, such as stopping the regiment from running away, and helping the guys in the front punch the other dudes.
If you want to go into Fantasy but don't like the price, buy models from 3rd party sources. I think this would be a great opportunity to point these out, and the great thing about this is you can also use the same models on different systems like say, KoW. Do take note that more often than not they will vary considerably with GW equivalents in terms of proportion and style, so you have to mix and match a bit or buy a whole army from that 3rd party source, Which is not bad considering I find most of them better than GW's offerings.
Perry Miniatures have a War of the Roses, late medieval plastic line. The Perry brothers also work with GW so if you'll notice the style is same-ish, only with realistic proportions and armor and less skulls. These miniatures could be used to represent Brettonia or The Empire and are truly works of art since you get a lot in a box in terms of bits, units and customization (more than GW ones in fact!) for more than half the price. The cavalry box is really good and I haven't seen a product as good as this, and for this price.... damn.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62
Fireforge Games sell both infantry and cavalry of the middle medieval category. Again they work well as Bretonnian troops and cavalry as well as Empire, although i would lean more on Bretonnia. I can totally see myself building an entire Bretonnian army with Fireforge templar knights, and the added bonus of not having ridiculous helmets is icing on the gravy (and I sometimes confuse my popular sayings). They will be also releasing a Mongol Horde infantry, perfect for barbarians and such.
http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore.html
Mantic Games, the makers of Kings of War, is of course on the list. Their undead range is super top notch, followed closely by the Orc range so if you want to make Vampire Counts or an Orc army, you should totally consider Mantic for the whole army or as parts of the whole army. With the undead you can get away with all big blocks (zombies, skeletons) with Mantic and the heroes and such GW. With the Orcs, the style is too far for my own level of comfort but if it works for you, then it's okay.
They also have a Dwarf line, and they're okay-ish. I've heard bad things about the elf line but I've also heard that they would work if they are painted more as fae/fairy elves rather than LotR elves. The Basilea line offers units for human armies and... I wouldn't recommend them. Sculpts are too ugly, and you're better off buying from the previos 3rd party sources I mentioned.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html
heartserenade wrote: If you want to go into Fantasy but don't like the price, buy models from 3rd party sources. I think this would be a great opportunity to point these out, and the great thing about this is you can also use the same models on different systems like say, KoW. Do take note that more often than not they will vary considerably with GW equivalents in terms of proportion and style, so you have to mix and match a bit or buy a whole army from that 3rd party source, Which is not bad considering I find most of them better than GW's offerings.
Perry Miniatures have a War of the Roses, late medieval plastic line. The Perry brothers also work with GW so if you'll notice the style is same-ish, only with realistic proportions and armor and less skulls. These miniatures could be used to represent Brettonia or The Empire and are truly works of art since you get a lot in a box in terms of bits, units and customization (more than GW ones in fact!) for more than half the price. The cavalry box is really good and I haven't seen a product as good as this, and for this price.... damn.
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/index.php?cPath=22_62
Fireforge Games sell both infantry and cavalry of the middle medieval category. Again they work well as Bretonnian troops and cavalry as well as Empire, although i would lean more on Bretonnia. I can totally see myself building an entire Bretonnian army with Fireforge templar knights, and the added bonus of not having ridiculous helmets is icing on the gravy (and I sometimes confuse my popular sayings). They will be also releasing a Mongol Horde infantry, perfect for barbarians and such.
http://www.fireforge-games.com/webstore.html
Mantic Games, the makers of Kings of War, is of course on the list. Their undead range is super top notch, followed closely by the Orc range so if you want to make Vampire Counts or an Orc army, you should totally consider Mantic for the whole army or as parts of the whole army. With the undead you can get away with all big blocks (zombies, skeletons) with Mantic and the heroes and such GW. With the Orcs, the style is too far for my own level of comfort but if it works for you, then it's okay.
They also have a Dwarf line, and they're okay-ish. I've heard bad things about the elf line but I've also heard that they would work if they are painted more as fae/fairy elves rather than LotR elves. The Basilea line offers units for human armies and... I wouldn't recommend them. Sculpts are too ugly, and you're better off buying from the previos 3rd party sources I mentioned.
http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/kings-of-war.html
jonolikespie wrote: The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.
It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).
The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.
The game is not balanced, its just random.
A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.
Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...
WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).
As for cost; there are alternatives out there. Since GW doesn't support tournaments anymore (not that I'm a tournament player anyway), you don't have to worry about a GW model only policy so use 2nd party manufacturers. Mantic's a decent source but the model quality can be hit or miss; my Vampire Counts army is nearly entirely Mantic; I kind of like their Ogres too.
Ranking issues. I go to the local crafts store and buy sheets of self-adhesive magnetized..paper? Measure, cut into roughly base-sized squares and place them on the bottoms of the bases then I buy flanged metal movement trays from this guy: http://shogunminiatures.com/ Inexpensive movement trays and he cuts to order. He also says pre-magnetized bases.
Someone else mentioned dioramas. I've seen some truly beautiful unit-filler dioramas for horde units that make ranking up big units a dream and add to the overall atmosphere of the game while being extremely wallet friendly...something you can't do with 40k. Here's an example off of the internet:
The intent here is to use the diorama filler in the middle of the block and have is surrounded by actually minis. I've seen people incorporate counters ala hero-clicks to keep track of the unit's size as it loses troops.
So, that's money and ranking taken care of in one swoop. (Note, the above pic is even from GW's own website...which means I'll probably get a C&D any time now..)
Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book. Starting a new fantasy army is just too expensive for most new players, and 8th ed killed a lot of existing player's interest. Here's hoping 9th brings them back (I may come back, after sitting out most of 8th).
Simply put, I can't afford Warhammer Fantasy. Its by far the most expensive of the three core systems with its emphasis on big armies of large regimented units of several miniatures and large monsters, and I already play/collect LOTR and 40K (but I've put an almost complete halt to new purchases for those games anyway considering how expensive they've gotten in recent years). The only miniature I've bought this year is a Storm Talon.
I've eyed some of the Warhammer range with envy in the past, and have considered getting Vampire Counts, Wood Elves, Bretonnians or the Empire because some of the models are quite cool.
I started getting into Fantasy back when it was in 6th edition with lizardmen, but even then I found it hard to get a game in since there just wasn't as many players around.
When I dropped mini gaming for a while and came back, 8th was already around. I looked into it and saw what I'd be looking at to spend in order to modernize my army for it, the lack of other players, and decided it just wasn't worth it.
In my area now, I've only seen maybe a grand total of two fantasy games in the last year, and both were obviously pre-arranged since the showed up together and left together.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Simply put, I can't afford Warhammer Fantasy. Its by far the most expensive of the three core systems with its emphasis on big armies of large regimented units of several miniatures and large monsters, and I already play/collect LOTR and 40K (but I've put an almost complete halt to new purchases for those games anyway considering how expensive they've gotten in recent years). The only miniature I've bought this year is a Storm Talon.
I've eyed some of the Warhammer range with envy in the past, and have considered getting Vampire Counts, Wood Elves, Bretonnians or the Empire because some of the models are quite cool.
But if I can't afford it, I can't play it.
I totally understand this sentiment. I'm already shopping around figuring out which third party manufacturers to get my Dwarves from if the new Army Book is interesting enough to play. I've decided the bulk of the miniatures will come from Mantic. Sure, the minis aren't super awesome from a quality standpoint, but they're good enough, and the "mega army" box is 117 miniatures for $160.00.
Edit: Your flag says your from Great Britain, so I'll mention that army box is 99 pounds.
jonolikespie wrote: The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.
It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).
The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.
The game is not balanced, its just random.
A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.
Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...
WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).
jonolikespie wrote: The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.
It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).
The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.
The game is not balanced, its just random.
A game of WHFB can be summarised by: advance forward, roll buckets of meaningless dice for 2+ hours, whoever hits the right spell wins the game.
Since practically every army can do this, it gives the game a semblance of "balance"...
WHFB 8th edition was tailor made for kids that can't have a tactical thought to save their lives, hence the extreme randomness of everything and anything in the game (that later spread to 40k with 6th edition). If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).
Balance? Yes cause 40k is SOOO BALANCED
You must be quoting the wrong post, because you'll never hear me say that 40k has anything resembling balance...
If that was a reply to my "If you are looking for a relatively balanced and tactically meaningful experience, you need to go back to 6th or even 7th edition (minus Daemons).", then I was referring to 6th or 7th edition of WHFB and not 40k.
With a tournament meta that is much less skewed than 40k, with a ruleset that, for the most part, is rather solid, I'd honestly say that there isn't too much wrong with Warhammer Fantasy, and would heartily recommend it (barring GW's insane pricing, of course)
Magic isn't nearly as big of a deal. The big spells in question are not only randomly determined, but often require respectively high casting values, and unless you roll two sixes (which granted, tends to be highly likely when you throw 5+ dice at one spell, but not guaranteed), your opponent has a chance to dispel it (or outright remove it, a la Dispel Scroll.
Steadfast has nerfed cavalry, but there are other ways to deal with it. If anything is hurting Fantasy right now, it's the pricing and the number of model required. Many battalions aren't starting armies, they're chunks of starting armies.
I'm wary of 9th ed. though. If GW40k's 9th ed. with allies and poorly applied meta-shifting rule changes, WHFB might have issues.
All that aside though, it's honestly fine as it is right now. Expensive is probably its biggest issue, but there are plenty of 3rd party models in existence.
Cryonicleech wrote: With a tournament meta that is much less skewed than 40k, with a ruleset that, for the most part, is rather solid, I'd honestly say that there isn't too much wrong with Warhammer Fantasy, and would heartily recommend it (barring GW's insane pricing, of course)
Magic isn't nearly as big of a deal. The big spells in question are not only randomly determined, but often require respectively high casting values, and unless you roll two sixes (which granted, tends to be highly likely when you throw 5+ dice at one spell, but not guaranteed), your opponent has a chance to dispel it (or outright remove it, a la Dispel Scroll.
Steadfast has nerfed cavalry, but there are other ways to deal with it. If anything is hurting Fantasy right now, it's the pricing and the number of model required. Many battalions aren't starting armies, they're chunks of starting armies.
I'm wary of 9th ed. though. If GW40k's 9th ed. with allies and poorly applied meta-shifting rule changes, WHFB might have issues.
All that aside though, it's honestly fine as it is right now. Expensive is probably its biggest issue, but there are plenty of 3rd party models in existence.
Wh40k 6th ed. Wh40k is always about 2 editions behind fantasy.
welshhoppo wrote: i know the thing that put me off WHFB was the cost.
You need to buy so many models that it is a massive drain on your resources.
Then you need to actually assemble and paint the thousands of models, and that is a drain on your sanity instead.
That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).
For the same money I got 2 large ancients armies in 28mm, or 4 in 15mm, or at least 2 factions in any other game.
Herzlos wrote: That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).
60 hand weapon and shield guys
40 crossbow or handgun guys
20 2-hand weapon guys
4 cannons (can alternatively be made into an organ gun)
(And ten dudes riding what look like huge badgers; might be worth something "counts as" in the new Army Book)
Im buying the warlord games pike and shotte brittania army starter as the basis for my empire and using the wargames factory to buy my cannon. (in NZD) to get the models from those sets is about 140 dollars. To get the from GW is well over 600 dollars.
So if you like a historic look to your men and want to do empire go look on those sites.
I dont like fantasy too much because im not a fan of the setting they have. Fantasy in generall is pretty well lame (and i feel the same about sci fi too) but since i can use historics and still get a game in for a really cheap price i have found myself enjoying it a bit.
The issues of cost and "wound counters" are the issues of someone who really doesn't know the world of WHFB.
Yes, you see some pretty huge units out there, because, well, at times, huge units are pretty awesome, but there's tons of other options. As one other poster pointed out, 8th has actually made this BETTER. More models now actually get to fight whatever the troop type, and monstrous infantry/cavalry got a huge boost in these regards.
The best thing is, unlike 40k where I have to adhere to certain builds to be competitive, there's plenty of builds in fantasy that are completely different to each other. If you don't like huge units, collect Ogre Kingdoms, or a WoC list using predominately Chariots, Monsters and Monstrous Cavalry.
As for cost, yes, it is more expensive, but there's many ways around it once again. Unit fillers are a fantastic example, reducing cost and offering great modelling opportunities (anyone who says you can't be creative on WHFB models is horrendously mistaken). Alternatively, just collect an elite, low model count army. Buy an Ogre Kindoms Battallion, a box of Mournfangs and a character (or convert one) and you've got yourself a decent force. Not enough to play normal games, but enough to learn the game and have some fun. You can easily get that for less than £80, if not cheaper.
Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
The odd thing is, we tried our a Game of WHFB 8th ,with cardboard bases.(Due to stupid prices of minatures.IOO)
And is was pretty dire, boring over complicated, and too random.
We did the same for Kings Of War.
Even without minatures the game was engaging , tacticaly rich ,fast paced and exciting.
(And a LOT more straight forward than WHFB.)
Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.
And Armies Of Arcana, Kings Of War, Pike And Shotte,etc are much more fun, cheaper and enjoyable to play.IOO.
The reason I haven't gotten off my ass to put together all of my Vampire Counts is model count. For my 1000pt army it's fine. Block of 50 skeletons, a Vampire, a Necromancer, and a few killy units. 3000pts? Holy feth look at how many models I have to paint.
Coupled with my absolutely glacial painting rate... and yeah, I'll wait and see if 9th does anything about the model count. If not, they will stay in their box.
Sidstyler wrote: Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
I have never heard much flak about folks using other companies' minis - or by proxy did you mean something more along the lines of 'these crossbowman are actually handgunners, and this wizard with them is really an engineer with a long rifle'?
As for dioramic filler... I play Kings of War - and the reaction that people have, as long as the base size is right, is to go 'ooohhhhh!' (Sadly, I was one of the folks going 'ooohhhh!' - it was not my army.... )
For Warhammer... I am not certain, some folks that I have heard of (though never seen in life) seem to think that unless the models are all GW and the movement tray is filled past the brim with minis then they will whine.
But the groups that I have actually played with really do not care - and all the armies are made from a mix of figures from many companies.
And this was the case before everyone abandoned WHFB for KoW.
Proxies and unit fillers in Warhammer Fantasy, like any game, depend on your opponent.
You'll find some people who won't play against you unless your models are all GW, and only from that army, and as WYSIWIG as possible. You'll find people who won't play against you if you have unit fillers, even if made with all GW parts.
As usual, feel free to play against those people or not for your own reasons. It's not like these attitudes are exclusive to Games Workshop games. I've been berated on these boards for suggesting alternate models in Infinity.
Sidstyler wrote: Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
I think it is dependent upon what the unit filler in question is. The Skaven example given is a good one, as it's very well done and it's clear that you're fighting a rat herd rather than a big statue with some rats on the base.
I know I've got a few unit fillers in the works for my Skeletons, Ghouls, and Zombies. A few 40mm bases with tombstones and disturbed earth(skeletons), hands reaching out of the ground/crawling torsos(zombies), some mausoleums that are overgrown with vines and creepers with broken masonry and bits and pieces of corpses leading inside(ghouls).
I should do some for my Dire Wolves too, but I like the models too much to really want to do unit fillers for them.
Unit fillers are one solution to the problem. The problem still exists though... and unit fillers tend to be more accepted in some armies/units than others. I don't think I've ever seen a cavalry unit or a high elf unit with a unit filler in it...
For me, Fantasy doesn't really appeal anymore. The army size is too big (too many models to paint), a full force is prohibitively expensive, the rules tend to inhibit rather than help, and the fluff is generic and bland compared to most other games I've played....
RiTides wrote: Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book.
Nah! 9th'll have an increased frontage to 8 model, and a minimum of 6 ranks to get any sort of bonus! Every infantry block will be 100+. It'll so amazingly cinematic!
Sidstyler wrote: Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
I'm sure the Warhammer World tournament pack puts some restriction on unit fillers (something like a unit must be less than 25% filler), as well as some rules as to what counts as things like zombies (such as an arm sticking out of the ground doesn't count). In a non-affiliated club/store, then I'm sure people won't mind.
Herzlos wrote: That's pretty much put me off too; I've been tempted to start it up a few times, then start to price things up and go back to something else. My starting costs for a dwarf army (avoiding finecast) is easily £200+ and that's before I've even checked if I've got a legal army (Army book, 40 warriers, 40 quarrelers, 10 slayers, 1 lord, 1 engineer and 1 cannon comes to £161), then I'd still need to source a rule book (£15 on eBay, £45 BRB or £65 starter set).
60 hand weapon and shield guys
40 crossbow or handgun guys
20 2-hand weapon guys
4 cannons (can alternatively be made into an organ gun)
(And ten dudes riding what look like huge badgers; might be worth something "counts as" in the new Army Book)
All for 99 pounds.
That's definitely what I'd be doing, using Mantic for the rank and file and Avatars Of War for the special stuff. I'll never get to play with it at Warhammer World but it'd be too much hassle to bring down anyway.
It still doesn't address the problem that "pure" Warhammer is just too expensive; the only way many people seem to consider starting it is via 3rd parties or the 2nd hand market, which can't be good for GW's bottom line.
Unit fillers, much like anything else, tend to follow the rule of cool. I for the most part love fillers, they're opportunities to show off some cool modelling ideas.
I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
The larger number of models in a unit also contribute to 'painting fatigue' as you have now 50% more models needed per unit.
While there was a complaint before that you had to have models that were basically just wound counters that didn't do anything, the methods they used in 8th to 'fix' it instead made it worse.
In addition to this, an equal point game seems (ironically) 'smaller' thanks to the larger units. While before, it would seem like the units would be somewhat 'small (30 for medium guys like Empire state troops; 12 for more elite Chaos Warriors), the fact you had lots of these units and 30 looked reasonably bulky meant that it wasn't too much for the mind to fill in the gaps, and the presence of lots of multiple units gave the impression of a larger army.
Conversely, now we have large hordes which despite being more models means they suck up points so you have fewer units to cover space, and it actually ends up looking smaller and less epic.
While 8th has got better balance and can be a lot of fun (as long as the magic phase doesn't ruin it, but some may say the magic phase always ruined everything), it had too many decisions that hurt the game as a whole.
Cryonicleech wrote: Unit fillers, much like anything else, tend to follow the rule of cool. I for the most part love fillers, they're opportunities to show off some cool modelling ideas.
I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
I have to agree with this, its not the type of game that you will be completing your force quickly, and that for some is part of the charm.
I had more trouble with magic in 7th edition. My friend played chaos and used to just slaughter my blood knights/grave guard/vampires with infernal gateway. But seriously too many models, not enough money.
Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.
I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.
To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.
Sidstyler wrote:Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
Again, the rule of cool applies, and so does it too depend on who you're playing. If you were to stick a single model on a 4x2 base and declare it a unit filler, I imagine there would be a few people who would complain. Personally, I couldn't care less. If your unit filler is good-looking and has actually had some effort put into it, most people will be more than happy to play you, and give you a few compliments as well, I'd wager.
Lanrak wrote:
Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.
I understand expensive, and random as well, but complicated? How is it complicated? It's 40k with angles and blocks of troops.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.
I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.
To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.
Funnily enough, there are more armies in the WHFB world than Skaven. If you don't want to paint a huge amount of models, then don't collect Skaven. That's like me saying "oh I don't like 40k because I don't like shooting armies and Tau are rubbish in close combat". Collect a different army. I've just put together a 2000 point (a good game size) Ogre list with 25 models. And two of those are chaff and cost 21 points each, and could easily be replaced for a Magic Banner on a unit.
Daba wrote: But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.
While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.
But if you like ratman enough, you will ENJOY painting and assembling those models, no matter the cost and time. You wouldn't be complaining about "agh too many models" because you would enjoy it.
EDIT: Its like me saying "The problem with Epic is the models are so tiny and no one wants to paint them." If that is the case, then you are playing the wrong game. Same with WHFB. Its not the best idea to compare 40k to fantasy because they aren't the same game, yeah very similar in different ways, but are there for people with different tastes.
Even if you love a concept or model line, having just so many can be a real drag to do, and the numbers become a little too many.
It's not like the Epic example at all, as the problem is the quantity - too many and you will either fatigue it, the project will take too long and you lose interest or you need to drop the quality and do a rush job.
When I did my Blood Bowl team, I was really into it,but by the end of that I was getting a little fatigued and that was only 14 models, with a little variation between the positions. It would be much worse for 50, where the largest variations are only on the command.
I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
8th was a huge step forward from 7th for me - pre-measuring (rather than people "getting round" it), step up and other bits and pieces but some elements I still don't enjoy.....
If you don;t like painting models ( I dont either) - just buy them painted on ebay - its usually cheaper than unpainted and they usually look good......
Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.
While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.
So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
For me it comes down to price, luckily i think my local gaming area has a solid fantasy base (but 40k is much bigger). But i do intend to come back either this edition or in 9th edition at some point, I just have bills that have to come first :(
Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.
While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.
So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?
Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
This is basically what I was trying to express. If you don't see it as some rush to get them all on the table, then you can pace yourself.
With the chaff aspect. The reality is that in this kind of situation not every man is a hero who can slay some beast - Many men will die for what seems like nothing.
I was honestly surprised reading this thread. I live in central MA and in my FLGS, I see Fantasy played frequently. Not AS frequently as 40K, but it's no rarity either. Matter of fact, the Fantasy section on the wall is closer to the door than the 40k!
But. I don't play in my FLGS. I play with only friends, and we play friendly and exclusively at 1000 pts., up from 500. Small armies, yes, but it keeps the model count small and keeps the games quick. We can usually play 2 or 3 on a good night. Is it moderately expensive? Yes. But 1k is a decent point value, in my opinion. Small games are fun, different strategy.
Thing is, I also play 40k, as 'Nids and GK. When I tried to get my Fantasy-playing friends into 40K, they were flat out not interested. When you are used to the S3-4 shots and S6 is a big deal, suddenly spamming S8 pie plates becomes ridiculously over-the-top. My main opponent (Who plays Dark Elves) could not find any races he liked. Surprising, right?
I can see how people find the huge units a turn-off. When I played Skaven, even at 1k, I was fielding 2 slave-busses of 40 Slaves each. The idea of unit fillers didn't occur to me (besides it is difficult to keep track of model numbers with unit fillers, again in my opinion) so I legit had rank-and file 40 slaves. And even THAT is small compared to higher point armies. I love the little ratmen but would absolutely HATE to play Skaven at 2500 pts., the amount of models to paint would be staggering. I switched to Ogres because I loved the fluff and the models, plus, bonus! Low model count! .
My advice is to find the Warbands rules for Fantasy (they're floating around the intrawebs) and start at 500 pts., try to get a few close friends interested. Also BUY/MAKE MOVEMENT TRAYS. The rank-and-file units all uniform and in the tray look amazing. Wielding spears? Try making the back rank with spears upright, the next rank lower, and lower, until the front rank has the spears pointing forward. I assure you that you would be hard-pressed to find something the aesthetically pleasing. Google "(your army here) unit fillers" and see the awesome ideas people come up with. Play for fun, keep it friendly. Don't do power-builds like FLYERSPAMLOL in 40K. Field fun things, and find a way to win. It will grow on your friends, I promise.
Daba wrote:But if you like ratmen though, you're out of luck.
While Skaven have always been a hoard, 8th brought it to absurd levels.
So say I like combat, but I like Tau. I'm out of luck as well. Does that mean there's something wrong with 40k? No, and the same doesn't apply to WHFB either.
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?
I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.
The reasons people don't play Fantasy is what's wrong with it, because if they're not playing it for those reasons then there are fewer people playing it in general and further increasing player decline.
What I am trying to get across is that people see the 'unit fatigue' much more with Fantasy, which is why (on top of price issues) it is becoming less popular. For a wargame, this is a fatal flaw as fewer players can become death of it, as you no longer have anyone to play.
I think what it is is also the daunting task of building and painting all those extra models that wont do anything.
Normal 40k army usually takes me 150 to 200hrs at a high quality level and that's with a 50 odd infantry and some tanks. A fantasy army numbering 150 infantry + cav + warmachines/monsters is getting to the 400hr range. Plus add in GWs lovely habit of completely invalidating armies and units.
Its more models, and more work. And that is exactly what's wrong.
RiTides wrote: Here's hoping 9th ed makes game sizes smaller and resets the meta with all army basics in one book.
Nah! 9th'll have an increased frontage to 8 model, and a minimum of 6 ranks to get any sort of bonus! Every infantry block will be 100+. It'll so amazingly cinematic!
Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.
try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?
I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.
I think that you are drawing too fine a logical distinction Shadow. People do not like certain aspects of the game, and on that basis do not play it. These things may or may not be flaws in the game in some general sense. However, from the perspective of the commenter, they are most definitely flaws in the game. It should also be noted that many people are mentioning the same flaws over and over again. Price, number of models to build and paint, overpowered magic, grind fests between infantry, weak cavalry, etc. This lends some credence as flaws in a more objective sense.
I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
As for why 40k is seen as more popular, well for starters you are posting in a predominantly 40k forum, so there's some bias there. There's also the usual issues of game aesthetics, model count, rules, and what not. By and large, I think the hobby tends to draw a larger portion of one personality type than the other, and that type could be said to prefer some things over others. They like drag racing and Nascar, not F1 or Le Mans. You'll catch them watching an NFL game much easier than you would the finals of Wimbledon. They can recite with astonishing accuracy the powerful feats and abilities that their chosen hero is capable of in the lore, yet consistently forget basic rules and functions of their army on the tabletop. They seem completely surprised and amazed EVERY time when their BS6 twin-linked ion cannon of doom manages to kill a vastly inferior target from across the table. They prefer to ignore the fact that they are doing nothing more than playing an inferior, oversized, cumbersome, and entirely more expensive version of a game that was created over 2 decades ago (Titan Legions/Epic/Arma....now SUPERSIZED!...smh)...see what I did there?
If you had to pinpoint the issue, it's that some gamers prefer the notion that they command a god-like force of immense power the likes of which the universe has never seen, and some people prefer WHFB. To be fair, I think it can go both ways. I know myself, I would love a world in which I could play a game of 40k and know I was jumping into a gaming system as well put together as WHFB. Likewise, it would be a fun change of pace to play a game of WHFB with nothing more on my agenda than the prospect of enjoying the next 30 minutes blowing my opponent to smithereens. Honestly though, it's all well and good, because at the end of the day, it's just a game played by hobbyist, and there's really no right or wrong way about it. For now, though, WHFB remains a more complex system with a much more complete and balanced ruleset and gameplay. Thus, it is more intensive to get involved in, and this makes people think. People don't like thinking when all they want to do is have fun and play a game with friends. That's where 40k comes in. Less thinking, more dice rolling and explosions, faster pace. Fewer hard choices, fewer risks, lots of rewards. That appeals to many people.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance. I am convinced, though, that within the realm of both systems, WHFB and 40k, there exists two completely perfect games, if you draw from the entirety of their individual rulesets. There was a lot to be said for unit strength and the magic phase of 7th edition, as was having models 4 wide instead of 5. Likewise, there was much to be said for charging from one combat to another in 40k, as was their for detailed item options in many 3e codex's. Maybe one day GW will get their act together, or someone will finally write a ruleset on their own that both communities can get behind which is far superior to anything GW would even be capable of in this day and age.
Aipoch wrote: I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
As for why 40k is seen as more popular, well for starters you are posting in a predominantly 40k forum, so there's some bias there. There's also the usual issues of game aesthetics, model count, rules, and what not. By and large, I think the hobby tends to draw a larger portion of one personality type than the other, and that type could be said to prefer some things over others. They like drag racing and Nascar, not F1 or Le Mans. You'll catch them watching an NFL game much easier than you would the finals of Wimbledon. They can recite with astonishing accuracy the powerful feats and abilities that their chosen hero is capable of in the lore, yet consistently forget basic rules and functions of their army on the tabletop. They seem completely surprised and amazed EVERY time when their BS6 twin-linked ion cannon of doom manages to kill a vastly inferior target from across the table. They prefer to ignore the fact that they are doing nothing more than playing an inferior, oversized, cumbersome, and entirely more expensive version of a game that was created over 2 decades ago (Titan Legions/Epic/Arma....now SUPERSIZED!...smh)...see what I did there?
If you had to pinpoint the issue, it's that some gamers prefer the notion that they command a god-like force of immense power the likes of which the universe has never seen, and some people prefer WHFB. To be fair, I think it can go both ways. I know myself, I would love a world in which I could play a game of 40k and know I was jumping into a gaming system as well put together as WHFB. Likewise, it would be a fun change of pace to play a game of WHFB with nothing more on my agenda than the prospect of enjoying the next 30 minutes blowing my opponent to smithereens. Honestly though, it's all well and good, because at the end of the day, it's just a game played by hobbyist, and there's really no right or wrong way about it. For now, though, WHFB remains a more complex system with a much more complete and balanced ruleset and gameplay. Thus, it is more intensive to get involved in, and this makes people think. People don't like thinking when all they want to do is have fun and play a game with friends. That's where 40k comes in. Less thinking, more dice rolling and explosions, faster pace. Fewer hard choices, fewer risks, lots of rewards. That appeals to many people.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance. I am convinced, though, that within the realm of both systems, WHFB and 40k, there exists two completely perfect games, if you draw from the entirety of their individual rulesets. There was a lot to be said for unit strength and the magic phase of 7th edition, as was having models 4 wide instead of 5. Likewise, there was much to be said for charging from one combat to another in 40k, as was their for detailed item options in many 3e codex's. Maybe one day GW will get their act together, or someone will finally write a ruleset on their own that both communities can get behind which is far superior to anything GW would even be capable of in this day and age.
Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.
try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.
Yes that's true, but you need significantly less models for a high elf force.
Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
that's because with skaven you can probably get away with just dry brushing&washing the fur and generally painting them in a dirty quick style and it wont look too out of place.
try doing that with high elves or even warriors of chaos and your army will end up looking like crap.
Before we even get into the argument of what constitutes an "acceptable" look for an individual's army, might I note that you'll be running significantly smaller unit sizes for Warriors of Chaos, with High Elves featuring maybe a block or two at 40 strong.
You can spend as much time on your models as you want to get the results you want, the point is that while the unit will take more time, regardless of what army you play, you can break down any unit for any game into smaller chunks to make the project much more manageable.
Additionally, the idea of magic as overpowered is a bit overblown. Yes, there are some pretty ridiculous spells out there (Curse of the Horned Rat, Purple Sun to some degree...) but the amount of times I've seen it come up is rather nil, and the amount of risk vs. reward is generally fair enough that even if your opponent irresistibly casts that bomb spell, they can suffer as well, in potentially horrifying ways. While I'm not saying it isn't a valid concern, I think that amongst those who haven't played view it as much more dangerous than it really is.
HI folks.
Earlier in the post I made a comment about WHFB rules being over complicated.(More pages of rules than necessary to deliver the game play.)
And I thought I better explain.
IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
It is quite clear that WHFB is suffering from rules bloat.(No where near as bad as 40 k though.)
Some call KoW 'WHFB light'. I prefer to call it WHFB done right!
Its odd how game developers can really shine when they are not bound by GW management directives.
(Jake and Allessio have developed some excellent games at Mantic. )
I love the fluff, and the models, but five reasons why I don't play [despite having quite a lot of Lizardmen]. Money, time, prefer to play other options, complicated rules and no real interest amongst my gaming group.
When I got back into Warhammer I joined a WHFB escalation league [back in 7th I think]. To be honest I didn't really enjoy playing - it felt like a maths exam, working out how far I could wheel, and was really... fiddly. 40k on the other hand seemed a lot easier to pick up and was much more intuitive.
Also, I found it really expensive so ended up dropping out. I'm an Ebay monkey and resale prices for WHFB stuff are really high. I paid about £2 per trooper for my Sisters army but trying to pick up some bargain lizards was pretty impossible [I ended up getting a load of the old ugly ones that came in a starter box I think, but any non rank-and-file were really pricey].
Only one of the people I game against has any interest [he's started painting up some Skaven] but it's hard enough to organise a game of 40k, let alone trying to schedule in WHFB too.
Lastly, WHFB is behind both Space Hulk and X-Wing of games I want to play more [still got 2 unopened X-Wing starter sets]. So can't see myself getting into it, probably ever.
Aipoch wrote: I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
$300 will not get you into Fantasy. The main rulebook is $74.24, and army books run approximately $50.00. That would leave $175.75 to spend on models. I would be hard pressed to build a force for 176 bucks.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance.
I do not think that steadfast, cavalry, and magic are minor issues. They ruin the game. They can be fixed, but have not been.
What's that saying? One man's rubbish is another man's treasure? I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with whfb. I run mostly night gobbos, and have around 300 models in that particular army, because I LIKE having masses of troops to throw at the opposition. As to the painting time, I can paint 40 gobbos quicker than I can paint a 10 man tac squad, because marines are more time consuming to clean up, assemble and paint, - more detail and a more complex construction. Incidentally, 20 gobbos are about the same price as 5 dire avengers, or sternguard etc, so it's not really much more expensive than 40k. Maybe a wee bit.
I don't mind the cost, because I've built up the army over about 20 years. Some of the models have doubled in value since I bought them, so if I sold it, I'd probably turn a profit.
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase
The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.
As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase
The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.
As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.
I believe that Fantasy is highly imbalanced. Almost all tournaments use comp systems, as many other people also think that the game is not balanced.
If you think that the game is balanced then try to beat a good no comp tournament list with a Tomb Kings list.
@spaceelf: you make a fair point, but the starting books were included in my estimation. If you don't believe me, pick any race from either system you prefer, and I will build you an army for that stated price.
Now to be fair, if we're talking about people getting into a hobby on a budget, I wouldn't for a second be so presumptuous about where they purchase their product. As such, I do not consider your estimation on the price of reading material as accurate given the vast supply of non-GW suppliers selling GW product, and I'm not just talking about ebay here. Both a core rulebook and appropriate codex/armybook can be purchased for any army for under $100.
As far as the game being highly imbalanced, I have to disagree. There is a stark difference between an imbalanced game, and a game which does not function as you think it should.
The issue of cavalry is that they do not function as most think they should; charging headlong into an enemy to break the lines. They do, however, function as a fast, hard hitting unit with other numerous uses.
Magic has equal amounts of lack-luster and boring moments for all of its over-the-top devastating ones. Again, this can relate to how we think magic should work, and how it does work. Because people spend over 400 points on a single (albeit powerful) human sized character, they believe he should have a natural immunity to the really disastrous spells of the world, or he should at least get a save where others do not, or something so that my super expensive\cornerstone\keystone\entire strategy doesn't come crashing down. But alas, he falls into the abyss that magically materialized below him just as easily as any other unfortunate soul; no amount of innate ability should give a character the "Wile E Coyote" syndrome of miraculously walking on thin air.
Steadfast has the issue of making large units scary for smaller deadlier units to tackle, and this upsets people. I can think of plenty of times my swordmasters were forced to chew through 25 clanrats in a single turn, only to have the other 75 or so stick around for more even though they didn't kill anyone in return. I guess those 75 rats didn't get the memo that I just killed 25 of their closest friends with 21 of my finest warriors. It's an escalation of things to be sure, but still, I've never had a problem breaking a units steadfast ability with an appropriately sized unit of my own. This does lead back into the "you need many models" syndrome of WHFB, so I'll stop here to end the loop.
As for comp systems and tourneys, the majority of the ones I have played in impart a comp more for convenience and less for balance. Games simply play faster and are judged easier when certain restrictions are put in place, like limiting power dice casting, unit sizes, special character allotments, etc. Never forget the poor effort made by all to ever assume either WHFB or 40K are tournament games; they are not. They are not chess, they are not MtG, they are not designed for tournament play. You should require no bigger example of this than the current uproar the 40K tourney community is in over the inclusion of the now "standard" additions to the game...which just scream OH so highly of balance...
Cryonicleech wrote: I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
So you're not saying it's too expensive to start; it's also too expensive and too long to start?
I could afford to create an army of 14 carat gold if I bought it slowly enough, that doesn't make it any cheaper than I bought it at once. I'm also pretty patient but I don't fancy the idea of spending months buying and assembling an army before I can use it, in the local meta that might mean the game has gone out of fashion before I even get a game.
Surely if I can get similar figures in the same scale and material (and occasionally the same sculpter) for a fraction of the cost, then it must be too expensive?
I'm looking at getting into a Fantasy escalation campaign (starting at about 500pts) but I'm probably not going to be using GW figures unless I am getting them for at least 30-40% off RRP, and even then they are still no cheaper than Mantic.
Daba wrote: Even if you love a concept or model line, having just so many can be a real drag to do, and the numbers become a little too many.
It's not like the Epic example at all, as the problem is the quantity - too many and you will either fatigue it, the project will take too long and you lose interest or you need to drop the quality and do a rush job.
When I did my Blood Bowl team, I was really into it,but by the end of that I was getting a little fatigued and that was only 14 models, with a little variation between the positions. It would be much worse for 50, where the largest variations are only on the command.
Sidstyler wrote:Are "unit fillers" generally accepted though? I'd imagine that some people would look down on that kind of thing, like with proxies. "Might as well play with cardboard chits!", that type of thing.
Again, the rule of cool applies, and so does it too depend on who you're playing. If you were to stick a single model on a 4x2 base and declare it a unit filler, I imagine there would be a few people who would complain. Personally, I couldn't care less. If your unit filler is good-looking and has actually had some effort put into it, most people will be more than happy to play you, and give you a few compliments as well, I'd wager.
Lanrak wrote:
Whats wrong with WHFB?
Its too expensive, complicated, random and rediuos to play.
I understand expensive, and random as well, but complicated? How is it complicated? It's 40k with angles and blocks of troops.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Agree with the view that some models in big units are just there as filler.
I could never do a skaven army. I've tried at least 3 or 4 times. I've seen skaven armies of 300+ models and the thought of doing that breaks me out in a cold sweat.
To do 300 models, with each model having 3 or 4 bits each = 1200 bits to file or glue = NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I will always respect any man (or woman - I'm comfortable with equality ) who can put out a Skaven army in 8th.
Funnily enough, there are more armies in the WHFB world than Skaven. If you don't want to paint a huge amount of models, then don't collect Skaven. That's like me saying "oh I don't like 40k because I don't like shooting armies and Tau are rubbish in close combat". Collect a different army. I've just put together a 2000 point (a good game size) Ogre list with 25 models. And two of those are chaff and cost 21 points each, and could easily be replaced for a Magic Banner on a unit.
I've done every army in fantasy bar Skaven! Many a sleepless night at not having done the full set, I tell you
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Cryonicleech wrote: I play Skaven, and honestly it's not a drag painting clanrats.
If you pace yourself, a project doesn't have to become overly tedious. While I understand that 40+ model units seem incredibly difficult to tackle, painting and assembling a unit of 20 models at a time can be done in the span of 2-3 days at the most.
I can understand the hesitation, and I will admit that Fantasy will take more time and work in order to fully paint a force, but the results are, by and large, always worth it, and can be done if tackled correctly.
Sensible advice. My problem with skaven has always been this: you paint forty models and then you discover you've only got 200 points
Then you get an army on the table, and somebody puts a big blast template on your unit! Damn those empire players!
Cryonicleech wrote: I don't buy into the concept that Warhammer is too expensive. I think the problem lies in the idea of what's considered "enough" to start.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
So you're not saying it's too expensive to start; it's also too expensive and too long to start?
I believe the point is that this is a slow burner and if you spread getting/modeling 200ish models during a coupe years time frame its more manageable...
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay. By the same token I can say you can download all of the books for free from an inlet of land where sailors of a certain persuasion make port (), but is neither here nor there on what the books cost to buy retail.
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
See, I view "buying into" a game that you won't actually be able to play for weeks or months to be even sillier. And I say this as someone who leans strongly on the modeller/painter side of the equation.
Aipoch wrote: @spaceelf: you make a fair point, but the starting books were included in my estimation. If you don't believe me, pick any race from either system you prefer, and I will build you an army for that stated price.
Try Beastmen. They not only loose a lot but are expensive to boot.
Now to be fair, if we're talking about people getting into a hobby on a budget, I wouldn't for a second be so presumptuous about where they purchase their product. As such, I do not consider your estimation on the price of reading material as accurate given the vast supply of non-GW suppliers selling GW product, and I'm not just talking about ebay here. Both a core rulebook and appropriate codex/armybook can be purchased for any army for under $100.
I agree that things can be purchased for less. However, if retail stores are not supported then they in turn do not support the game system. Without the support of stores, there are fewer new players, pick up games, etc. I really do think that price is a problem for Fantasy. It hurts the game in one way or another.
As far as the game being highly imbalanced, I have to disagree. There is a stark difference between an imbalanced game, and a game which does not function as you think it should.
In my estimation the game suffers from many different types of imbalances. The first is that certain armies are drastically weaker than others. For example, Tomb Kings and Beastmen do not stand a chance of winning against strong tournament lists. Some comp systems actually give these armies extra points because they are so weak. The second imbalance is that certain aspects of the game (magic) are so powerful that they essentially negate other aspects. For example, Purple Sun can lay waste to large swaths of a low initiative force. Worse yet, not all armies have access to the spell. The armies that have it, can assure that they get it. This leads back to the first point. The third aspect of the imbalance is that certain units are all but useless while others are must haves. For example, playing with a Jabberslythe is almost like giving your opponent a 100 point advantage. On the other hand two steam tanks is good in almost every Empire army.
Well, to be fair, the biggest and most consistent issue with both WHFB and WH40K over the last 20 or so years has been a complete lack of either internal or external balance within and between armies.
Aipoch wrote: no amount of innate ability should give a character the "Wile E Coyote" syndrome of miraculously walking on thin air.
Err wings?
Flying is hardly the same thing as walking on air.
I will admit though: Certain armies are way more expensive than others. I came up with a decent 1500 point list for VC, and it turned out to be around $658 AUD. Now I don't have exact comparisons, But I don't think you'd be hard pressed to form an army from another race for half of that.
The flip side is true, too. Some armies are far more expensive than the 1500 point list you propose. If you're trying a WHFBDE list focusing on Witch Elves, for example, which I believe run at around $10/model USD, retail. It wouldn't be unrealistic to spend $500-$600 on just Core for a Witch Based DE army at 1500 points.
Mr Morden wrote:I don't like all the finicky angles etc
I don't like the "chaff" aspect
Eh, yeah, these are some things people don't like, especially the chaff, though, on the other hand, many people love the extra tactics involved with chaff. But that's all personal preference and you can't really fault a game on such things.
True - but thats why I don't play it which I think is what the threads about?
I understand your point but, the thread is "what's wrong with warhammer fantasy", not "why don't you play warhammer fantasy". You may not like angles or chaff, but that doesn't make it a fault of the game, it doesn't mean it's something that's "wrong" with it.
I think that you are drawing too fine a logical distinction Shadow. People do not like certain aspects of the game, and on that basis do not play it. These things may or may not be flaws in the game in some general sense. However, from the perspective of the commenter, they are most definitely flaws in the game. It should also be noted that many people are mentioning the same flaws over and over again. Price, number of models to build and paint, overpowered magic, grind fests between infantry, weak cavalry, etc. This lends some credence as flaws in a more objective sense.
Price and number of models (those two being linked) are the only things I'd accept as flaws of the game, over other games. "Overpowered" magic counters large blocks of infantry and clever, out-of-the-box tactics can counter both. It's a bit of a rock/paper/scissors mentality but nothing more, and yes, it could be improved, but show me a wargame with perfect rules.
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
spaceelf wrote:
Aipoch wrote: I'm wondering where people are drawing such conclusions about the price of entry for WHFB, or for 40k for that matter. Both systems require about $300 to get into them with what either system would declare a standard points army. Exceptions exist on both sides to be sure, but you can still expect to shell out around that much by the time you feel you have a small army as opposed to a small scouting party.
$300 will not get you into Fantasy. The main rulebook is $74.24, and army books run approximately $50.00. That would leave $175.75 to spend on models. I would be hard pressed to build a force for 176 bucks.
There are definitely things wrong with WHFB to be sure (steadfast, cavalry, magic, cannons, LoS), but most are minor issues that come up only as a minor annoyance.
I do not think that steadfast, cavalry, and magic are minor issues. They ruin the game. They can be fixed, but have not been.
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
2) Opinions. They do counter each other, like I mentioned before. Not perfect, but, again, like I said, show me a wargame with perfect wargames. 40k has much, much bigger issues than the ones that WHFB has with magic or steadfast.
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
Well tastes differ, but may I ask why you prefer complicated rules?
Lanrak wrote:IF you down load the FREE Kings of War rules from the Mantic web site.(32 pages including 4 army lists.)
And compare it to the WHFB rules, and the game play both games deliver.
I have done so, and I found it extremely simple. Over-simple to the point of being dull. That's just my opinion and I'm not slating KoW (as far as I understand, there's a more advanced set of rules which I'm sure is much better). I don't like the damage counter and routing mechanic and, like I said, it's far too simple. My opinion though, but, for me, complicated > simple.
Well tastes differ, but may I ask why you prefer complicated rules?
I'd venture there is confusion between complex (many possible interactions, deep) and complicated (difficult to understand, convoluted)
My personal barrier is one largely of cost, as seems to be a common theme, plus time (I just don't have painting time to add another army project just now, nor gaming time to support another system) additionally, notably fewer guys at my club play, and I would likely choose Wood Elves or Bretts, both of which commonly are held up as two of the armies most in need of updating.
I've bought in to the Mierce Darklands KS though, so I should be getting my sword 'n' sorcery kicks from that later in the year when the product arrives.
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
Unfortunately the two battalion trick really does not work for most armies. (I agree that it works better for Ogres than for most other armies. Two Orge battalions now gets you 12 bulls, 12 ironguts, and 8 lead belchers. These come out to be (with upgrades) 424, 566, and 364 points. This puts us at 1354 for $220. Tacking on books and a $40 hero puts you well over $300.) As you pointed out the dwarves are oop. For beastmen, two battalions gets you approximately 700 points worth of models for $180. The problem with battalions is that you have to want to use the units they contain. This brings us back to the issue of balance. In many cases some of the units in the battalion are subpar. Examples include high elf spearmen, Saurus Cavalry, Chaos Knights, TK Skeleton Horsemen, etc.
1) Ok, with a little bit of converting and modelling, you can make a 2000 point (good game size) Ogre army from two batallions. Two batallions and the army book from any online retailer that offers 20% off is £126. Let's call that £130 with postage. Then you buy the rules for £30. Heck, if you don't have an iPad/e-reader, buy the big rulebook, buy IoB and flog the models, go on eBay. You're still getting a 2000 points army for about £160 which is 262USD. Buy some actual character models, some sabretusks as chaff, some other units. You will get into WHFB for under 300USD, buying from retail. Trawl eBay, I bet you can get the same for 250USD.
The Dwarf Battalion seems to be OOP for some reason, but you'll be able to find some on eBay. Two dwarf battalions and a Lord on Shieldbearers would get you started in the same way, for under 300USD (would be easy to go up to 2400 with this one).
The two battalion + character + a bit of conversion trick also works with many other armies, though those two are the ones that will result in the best list.
Unfortunately the two battalion trick really does not work for most armies. (I agree that it works better for Ogres than for most other armies. Two Orge battalions now gets you 12 bulls, 12 ironguts, and 8 lead belchers. These come out to be (with upgrades) 424, 566, and 364 points. This puts us at 1354 for $220. Tacking on books and a $40 hero puts you well over $300.) As you pointed out the dwarves are oop. For beastmen, two battalions gets you approximately 700 points worth of models for $180. The problem with battalions is that you have to want to use the units they contain. This brings us back to the issue of balance. In many cases some of the units in the battalion are subpar. Examples include high elf spearmen, Saurus Cavalry, Chaos Knights, TK Skeleton Horsemen, etc.
I never said the two battalion trick was perfect, since it won't always meet the mark and won't always give you a good list. But, if you want a good list and you want to start a certain army, then you have to be prepared to pay more and, chances are, if you do want a better list or want to start VC, then you'll be prepared to pay. If you just want to give fantasy a go, or get started, you can easily do so for under 300USD.
The battalion trick works very well for Ogres (see list in the spoiler). Gets to 2000 easily whilst maintaining a strong list.
Spoiler:
Slaughtermaster - Lvl 4, GW, Hellheart, Tali of Pres, Ironcurse Icon (395) [Converted from Ogre]
Bruiser - BSB, Heavy Armour, GW, Tali of Endurance, Dragonhelm (185) [Converted from Ogre]
Butcher - Ironfist, Dispel Scroll (128) [Converted from Ogre]
9 Ogres - FC, Light Armour, Ironfists (318)
6 Ironguts - FC, Banner of Swiftness (313)
6 Ironguts - FC, Standard of Discipline (313)
Yeah, if you're looking to get an army you can get on the table within the week, it's expensive. But if you buy a unit, assemble it, and paint it, slowly adding things into your force, you can stretch out the amount of money you're spending on the game. Does that decrease the cost? No, of course not. But it makes the spending much more manageable. And sure, you'd have to wait longer until you have an army you can play, but the idea of investing $200-300+ in one burst in order to start seems silly.
See, I view "buying into" a game that you won't actually be able to play for weeks or months to be even sillier. And I say this as someone who leans strongly on the modeller/painter side of the equation.
This is my view as well. With every other game I've bought into I've been playing it (with bare plastics, at least) within a couple of days. Flames Of War took an evening or 2 of clipping and gluing, 40K took a couple of evenings clipping and gluing, Empire Of The Dead took a couple of hours clipping and gluing (8 metals a side), and I was playing X-Wing after minutes.
Having something I can't play for months because I need so much of it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me when there's so many other systems I can buy into and be playing next week at my club.
HI again.
Just to expand my comment on WHFB having over complicated rules , compared to KoW.
It was just the fact that KoW arrives at far more game play per page of rules, that WHFB does.
Most of KoW game play complexity is delivered by tactical interaction between the players in game.(Lots of good rules look simple , but are hard to master!)
A LOT of WHFB game complexity arrives DIRECTLY from complication in the rules from special rules for units, items, spells,random events etc.
I agree its is down to personal choice.
SOME like over complicated poorly defined rule set they can argue over, RAW vs RAI, and poor editing proof reading ,and generally just cheat on a 4+.
Most war gamers I know prefer straight forward rules that let you get on with the game with a minimum of fuss.
However, Rick Priestly has stated in interviews, GW plc believe their core demoghraphic of teen age boys, can NOT deal with complex tactical decision making.But they soak up data like a sponge.So GW insist on putting in loads of additional UN NEEDED rules in just for them learn.(Focus on cool sounding special rules to inspire purchases.)
However, I agree the cost in time and money required for WHFB is THE most prohibitive factors!
I down loaded the free rules for KoW , and the army lists.We played games with JUST card board bases the right sizes until we saved up for the army box sets.(About 1/4 the cost of GW stuff!)
So it cost me a few sheets of printer paper and a bit of time cutting up some boxes to START to play KoW.
Then we bought and painted units at our own pace...
A much better option for us than WHFB.
(Low start up cost, value for money products and great game play.Ex GW employees doing what the GW corporate would NEVER let them do.)
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.
If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay. By the same token I can say you can download all of the books for free from an inlet of land where sailors of a certain persuasion make port (), but is neither here nor there on what the books cost to buy retail.
Honestly, who the hell pays retail nowadays
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dalloskid wrote: Just curious, does anyone have any more info on the removal of the Dwarf Battalion? Like why it happened, plans to replace it etc.
Dwarfs are rumored to be the next fantasy book in FEB
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.
If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.
But then he may not get into 40k, because of the same reason.
But, the bottom line is, those sort of people, who walk into a GW store and pay direct, are usually people who don't care about price or think that that's the price they have to pay. We, on this forum, and similar ones, are the clued up ones about the world of wargaming. We're the ones having a discussion about the expense of Warhammer Fantasy, so we're the ones who care about it. We can't have a discussion about what the Average Joe would do because the Average Joe is never going to read this.
I have to disagree with that, you can get an IOB rulebook for £8 at most [that is far less unwieldy than the big book]
We are talking retail, not 3rd party sales from eBay.
Says who exactly?
Anyone who is interested in having a meaningful and quantifiable discussion instead of having it degenerate into "I got these things for free from a friend so game X is definitively more affordable than game Y"...
We're not doing those things, simply understanding that most players of this game will have got their stuff at some type of discount.
If you are someone that already knows and understands the miniature gaming hobby, yes.
If you are just a random person that walked into a stored and saw a game being played and liked what he saw... no, he would not know how to get the game at a discount.
But then he may not get into 40k, because of the same reason.
But, the bottom line is, those sort of people, who walk into a GW store and pay direct, are usually people who don't care about price or think that that's the price they have to pay. We, on this forum, and similar ones, are the clued up ones about the world of wargaming. We're the ones having a discussion about the expense of Warhammer Fantasy, so we're the ones who care about it. We can't have a discussion about what the Average Joe would do because the Average Joe is never going to read this.
And in that case you still need to have an easily quantifiable value to be able to have an objective discussion about costs, so you can switch prices from retail store to internet store with their usual 20% discounts. What you cannot do is base cost discussions on that time that you found a steal on ebay, because those conditions aren't easily repeatable.
Ok. Now build a competitive 2000pt 40k army for $300. Keep in mind that you'll need the escalation and fortification books because they have changed the 40k meta so much.
Money will never be a problem with fantasy because of unit-filling dioramas that let you build 50-man blocks with one unit box.
Rules problems? Any worse than a revenant titan hiding behind 3 void shields and dropping 4 d-strength pie plates?
I like fantasy; it's generally more strategically complex than 40k and movement trays mean I don't have to wait an hour for a tyranid or work player to complete their movement phase.
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase
The game is pretty balanced. You need large units and the buffed level magic can decimate large units. Problem I have is that I usually end up losing my caster or a good chunk of my unit. Nothing says purple sun at the super buff level going off when you lose 8 guys in the unit and your 400 point caster to kill 9 ogre bulls due to the irresistible force's roll on the miscast table.
As the new army books are coming out the game is much more balanced. It's more fun when you leave the previous editions behind and play with the newer army books. Everyone wants to say something got nerfed but it's more that they are toning everything down. I think that makes the game better overall. The fact that monsters become somewhat viable makes the game more enjoyable and more in the realm of warhammer fantasy.
I believe that Fantasy is highly imbalanced. Almost all tournaments use comp systems, as many other people also think that the game is not balanced.
If you think that the game is balanced then try to beat a good no comp tournament list with a Tomb Kings list.
My friend does this with ease. Tomb Kings are not as bad as everyone says, you just can't be a crappy general and expect to play poorly and win. That said, I find fantasy overbloated on rules, too many arguments over the way certain things are written in the book, and things like the 8th edition High Elves going "you're a daemon? I win." There is enough wrong with fantasy that after trying KoW, I'm done with warhammer fantasy. It's a simpler, smoother game, and it's what Warhammer used to be to me (6th edition style, that is).
I firmly believe that retail shops help the hobby. If people do not buy fantasy retail, then the retail shops will not support it. Earlier in this thread someone stated that there were not many fantasy players in MD. Someone suggested going to Dropzone games. The person said that they had been there and did not find many people.
Regardless, even if you take into account a 20% discount, it still only gives us $375 retail to build an army. While this is somewhat more manageable than 300, it is still not ideal.
Many other popular miniature games are so much less expensive than fantasy that it has a hard time competing.
Malifaux
2.0 rules $40
Fate Deck: $7.25
2 boxed sets $90
3 extra minis $30
Total cost $167.25
Infinity
Free rules
Two boxed sets $100
4 extra models $60
Total cost $160
Kings of war
Two army sets $150
Total cost: $150
Dreadball
Deluxe starter set $80
Season two book $20
Two more teams $50
Total cost $150
All of these forces include plenty of extra items, so you have a variety of things to play with. Thus even with lots of extra items these games cost half as much as fantasy.
timetowaste85 wrote:
My friend does this with ease. Tomb Kings are not as bad as everyone says, you just can't be a crappy general and expect to play poorly and win.
The initiative test spells like Purple Sun and Pit of Shades kill TK. The spells are good in general so people take those lores. Against low Init armies they wreak havok.
Many other popular miniature games are so much less expensive than fantasy that it has a hard time competing.
Malifaux
2.0 rules $40
Fate Deck: $7.25
2 boxed sets $90
3 extra minis $30
Total cost $167.25
Infinity
Free rules
Two boxed sets $100
4 extra models $60
Total cost $160
Kings of war
Two army sets $150
Total cost: $150
Dreadball
Deluxe starter set $80
Season two book $20
Two more teams $50
Total cost $150
All of these forces include plenty of extra items, so you have a variety of things to play with. Thus even with lots of extra items these games cost half as much as fantasy.
Yep, these are certainly more cheap than fantasy but just because its cheap doesnt mean that its better. Do these wargames have the other benefits of fantasy such as a wide playerbase, variety of armies, fun yet tactical rules? (those are the things I like most about fantasy).
Also do they really give you a proper army thats a good size? Care to provide some lists like Shadow did? I dont know much about those wargames and Im sure theres others who dont either so would you elaborate and prove your point?
I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
In my FLGS, 40k is the poison of choice for most of the wargamers but with that being said there are a number of stores around here and some cater to different games. I know that one in particular is bigger for fantasy than anything else while another one actually has a massive Mechwarrior following.
I have found that areas with younger players, especially those in the military seem to have far more 40k players than anything else maybe becuase they relate a bit more to it?? Who knows. Like the translation for San Diego it is lost to the sands of time
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
In terms of lists here is a malifaux list.
Mother of Monsters Lilith boxed set $40
Nephilim boxed set $40
These contain the following models
Lilith
Cheurb totem
Barbaros
3 Terror tots
2 Young nephilim
Mature nephlim
These miniatures make a 48 point list. The final two points can be filled with upgrade cards. A 50 point game is a good size.
We are free to buy more models for some variety.
Doppleganger $9.5
Hans $9.5
Yep, these are certainly more cheap than fantasy but just because its cheap doesnt mean that its better. Do these wargames have the other benefits of fantasy such as a wide playerbase, variety of armies, fun yet tactical rules? (those are the things I like most about fantasy).
Also do they really give you a proper army thats a good size? Care to provide some lists like Shadow did? I dont know much about those wargames and Im sure theres others who dont either so would you elaborate and prove your point?
Have you played anything other than GW games? Because both WHFB 8th edition and 40k 6th edition are as far away from "tactical rules" as it gets when someone is talking about miniature games...
Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.
Infinity forces have around 10 models on each side, same thing for Malifaux (and Dreadball AFAIK).
I'm not familiar with Kings of War, but their army sets range from 40+ to 110 miniatures AFAIK.
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
In terms of lists here is a malifaux list. Mother of Monsters Lilith boxed set $40 Nephilim boxed set $40 These contain the following models Lilith Cheurb totem Barbaros 3 Terror tots 2 Young nephilim Mature nephlim
These miniatures make a 48 point list. The final two points can be filled with upgrade cards. A 50 point game is a good size. We are free to buy more models for some variety. Doppleganger $9.5 Hans $9.5
Rule Book $40 Cards $7.50 Total cost: $146.50
So does chess. Chess is a lot cheaper too. You just can not take two completely different games and compare them. What is your point?
Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.
Wow, it is so good that you know exactly what games are being played in the entire world, even in places you've never even been though. In my area, WHFB is very popular, while Infinity and Malifaux are not even sold in any store in a 100 km radius around my house, and I have never seen anyone playing it.
I started playing Fantasy in 6th edition, basically 1999/2000. I went to a bunch of GTs, local events, and did my fair share of well. Made some good friends and had a great time, both competitively at larger events and locally. The game was fun, and eventually every army got a book. There were balance issues. Vampire Counts led by a necromancer, for example, were very strong. Royal Air Force Brets, Clan Skyre oriented Skaven, Daemonic Legion from Storm of Chaos, the Slayer army from the same, and Wood Elves were all at a different power level than most of the other books in the game. But you could build lists for most things where if you played well and had a bit of luck, you could win the uphill battle. List design was paramount, as a bad list in a bad army was basically doomed to failure. There were other problems. The way magic was structured (along with dispel scrolls), the only reasonable choices were to bring a ton of magic (lvl 4, 3x lvl2) or just a lvl1 scroll caddy. Skirmishers were too powerful, being highly maneuverable and with very different rules about how they ranked up during combat. Finally, cavalry units tended to be the most potent offensive choices, and melee infantry were generally inefficient if they cost more than a few points each. HW/Shield was the ubiquitous choice for armament. Fear was a super strong mechanic, as was terror, and there were a number of large beasties that could threaten large swathes of the battlefield while being reasonably safe from retaliation due to LoS.
Then 7th edition came. GW clearly had their eyes set on some of the above. Skirmishers were nerfed incredibly. Mages only got to use their own dice IIRC. But inconsistency of army books remained. Cavalry got stronger. Dragons, steam tanks, and hydras all became common sights. Good intentions, but I thing the end result was the exacerbation of the root issues. Only a few armies were actually competitive. Within those armies, only a small chunk was actually usable.
So out came 8th. A major overhaul. Magic was random. Point allocation shifted dramatically. Gone were the 2 core unit requirement. Now it was a percentage of points. But people still wanted to bring their lords! So no longer could you play 2000 or 2250...games now needed to be 2400, 2500, or even 3000 (a large game when I started...I played exactly 0 of these for about 7 years). Infantry were given numerous buffs. Books began becoming rapidly released. But the soul of the game is gone. I've played about 20 games, watched dozens more. The game devolves into a grand melee about midfield. Magic removes nearly whole units at a time. Given the massive units, all on the same size board as before, room to maneuver went down greatly. Almost no LoS rules, and terrain no longer hindered movement as much. Arrange blocks of 10x4+ 20mm or 25mm bases and push them forward. Throw bucketfuls of dice. Hope yours end up more 3+'s and 4+'s, and your opponent more the 1's. Get off that irresistable spell X that removes your opponents main 400pt unit from the board. What fun.
So, in short, the game went from a game that had its issues, but was very focused on movement and the application of force to a game that perhaps has fewer mechanical problems but is mostly just an exercise in dice rolling.
CurrentlyUnknown wrote: I started playing Fantasy in 6th edition, basically 1999/2000. I went to a bunch of GTs, local events, and did my fair share of well. Made some good friends and had a great time, both competitively at larger events and locally. The game was fun, and eventually every army got a book. There were balance issues. Vampire Counts led by a necromancer, for example, were very strong. Royal Air Force Brets, Clan Skyre oriented Skaven, Daemonic Legion from Storm of Chaos, the Slayer army from the same, and Wood Elves were all at a different power level than most of the other books in the game. But you could build lists for most things where if you played well and had a bit of luck, you could win the uphill battle. List design was paramount, as a bad list in a bad army was basically doomed to failure. There were other problems. The way magic was structured (along with dispel scrolls), the only reasonable choices were to bring a ton of magic (lvl 4, 3x lvl2) or just a lvl1 scroll caddy. Skirmishers were too powerful, being highly maneuverable and with very different rules about how they ranked up during combat. Finally, cavalry units tended to be the most potent offensive choices, and melee infantry were generally inefficient if they cost more than a few points each. HW/Shield was the ubiquitous choice for armament. Fear was a super strong mechanic, as was terror, and there were a number of large beasties that could threaten large swathes of the battlefield while being reasonably safe from retaliation due to LoS.
Then 7th edition came. GW clearly had their eyes set on some of the above. Skirmishers were nerfed incredibly. Mages only got to use their own dice IIRC. But inconsistency of army books remained. Cavalry got stronger. Dragons, steam tanks, and hydras all became common sights. Good intentions, but I thing the end result was the exacerbation of the root issues. Only a few armies were actually competitive. Within those armies, only a small chunk was actually usable.
So out came 8th. A major overhaul. Magic was random. Point allocation shifted dramatically. Gone were the 2 core unit requirement. Now it was a percentage of points. But people still wanted to bring their lords! So no longer could you play 2000 or 2250...games now needed to be 2400, 2500, or even 3000 (a large game when I started...I played exactly 0 of these for about 7 years). Infantry were given numerous buffs. Books began becoming rapidly released. But the soul of the game is gone. I've played about 20 games, watched dozens more. The game devolves into a grand melee about midfield. Magic removes nearly whole units at a time. Given the massive units, all on the same size board as before, room to maneuver went down greatly. Almost no LoS rules, and terrain no longer hindered movement as much. Arrange blocks of 10x4+ 20mm or 25mm bases and push them forward. Throw bucketfuls of dice. Hope yours end up more 3+'s and 4+'s, and your opponent more the 1's. Get off that irresistable spell X that removes your opponents main 400pt unit from the board. What fun.
So, in short, the game went from a game that had its issues, but was very focused on movement and the application of force to a game that perhaps has fewer mechanical problems but is mostly just an exercise in dice rolling.
Yeah, I'm not too happy about the regiment erasing spells either. I get that it was to counter steadfast, but a much better counter in this case would have been to have steadfast be cancelled out by flanking a unit if it is already engaged in combat with another unit. Cavalry would then be very important for getting those anti-Steadfast flanks and there would have been a greater emphasis on positioning and movement. But nope, Purple vortex of death.
Yes, Malifaux or whatever is far cheaper to start but that's because they're skirmish games. Like Iron Captain says, that's completely different. I could now argue that WHFB is super-cheap because you could get your hands on the old skirmish rules and buy a character and box of troops. Done. WHFB, proper WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.
I'd also point out that Malifaux and similar games, at least here in the UK, are not widely sold or widely known. Their niche, the thing they use to attract players, is their cheap cost. They have to be cheap in order to survive. I guarantee you that the vast majority of players of these games, at least here in the UK, are players who have tried getting into WHFB/40k, but then decided to switch because of price. However, you still can use that to fault WHFB, because, as I said, WHFB isn't skirmish.
Things might be different in the US, I don't know, You may be able to walk into a corner shop and buy a box of malifaux and a pint of milk. If it's as scarcely sold as here, then I'd bet the situation is the same.
And, as Druchii, says, WHFB has a lot going for it, whilst Infinity/Malifaux/whatever might not. I've never played either (well, I did start Malifaux but never really got into it - though that's another story). The rules might be great, they might be crap, I won't comment as, like I said, I don't know them well enough. Point is, it's not all about price
I forgot to mention! On top of the steadily decreasing fun factor of the game over 10+ years (longer actually, because I did play a bunch of 5th edition, but that was mostly just at friend's houses so I won't count it), the cost of keeping up actually increased at a higher rate. So I was paying more to have less fun.
Also, cost is relevant. But not in the way I think some are saying. A person has $X of discretionary spending. Game A has 100 models for that cost. Game B has 1. However, for the person, Game A is somewhat boring. Game B, on the other hand, is exciting and dynamic. What should they spend their money on? That's what it boils down to. All of these games are luxury items. Play what you get the most mileage out of for enjoyment and entertainment. For me, for right now that's warmachine/hordes. It's cheaper than GW games...but not that much cheaper. But I love the game, the models are good, and the rules/release cycles are far more pleasant.
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.
Also, outside the UK, WHFB is as good as dead, you are much more likely to get games for Infinity or Malifaux than you are getting opponents for WHFB.
That's not the case where I play in metro Atlanta. WHFB isn't as popular as WH40K, but I haven't seen a game of Malifaux played since early this year and Infinity gets a small group on Thursdays at the FLGS. While uncommon, WHFB is still more common than either of those, here.
I just did today, for some spider riders and arachnarok... Been at this for decades so its not like I don't know how to get deals if I wanted.
There's numerous reasons anyone would do that, ( mine today was as simple as - I want to), don't see the drama of understanding why others prefer doing things differently.
Is wfb expensive? Err depends on what you take out of your minis... Arachnarok will give me months of fun just painting al those wonderful details and converting... so for my wallet 36pounds spreaded by 90 days ( at my speed probably double) is 0.4 per day...But thats me... lets go crazy and add greenstuff, paints and all tools etc and make it say 1pound per day... still cheap.
Can I get infinity cheaper? Done that! 40k? Done that... Hordes? etc etc.... Done all that, been there. I have minis for the systems I like and all of them are equally enjoyable to me. Today I wanted some gobbos so yeah got a bunch.
The Shadow wrote: WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.
Well a more fair comparison then would be between WHFB and another Massive-battle game, like Kings of War
KoW Orc Army Set 49.99£
32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook
3 Plastic Resin Trolls
1 Gore Rider Chariot
20 Plastic Orcs with Command
20 Plastic Greatax with Command
10 Plastic Resin Gore Riders
Total: 54 miniatures and a rulebook ( 40 Infantry, 10 Infantry, 1 chariot, 3 monstrous infantry)
dalloskid wrote: Just curious, does anyone have any more info on the removal of the Dwarf Battalion? Like why it happened, plans to replace it etc.
Dwarfs are rumored to be the next fantasy book in FEB
Cheers for that!
The Shadow definitely has a point here; This topic originally started talking about how it affects HIM, a Dakka Forum user - and what he feels is wrong with this game. We aren't talking about some 12 year old that comes in off the street here.
The Shadow wrote: WHFB, is not a skirmish game and, as such, it is more expensive than a skirmish game. Again, that doesn't mean there something wrong with WHFB - or else by that logic every wargame that isn't skirmish is automatically bad - it just means its core mechanics and core principles mean you have to spend more money. As a large-scale game, it is fairly expensive, but not as expensive as many people like to make out.
Well a more fair comparison then would be between WHFB and another Massive-battle game, like Kings of War
KoW Orc Army Set 49.99£ 32 Page Mini Kings of War Core Rulebook 3 Plastic Resin Trolls 1 Gore Rider Chariot 20 Plastic Orcs with Command 20 Plastic Greatax with Command 10 Plastic Resin Gore Riders
Total: 54 miniatures and a rulebook ( 40 Infantry, 10 Infantry, 1 chariot, 3 monstrous infantry)
More for less
How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?
How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?
If you build it "as is" it's 580 points (without any magic items) which is totally playable, I usually play 1000-1500 point games. Quality-wise it's pretty nice, I prefer their resin-mix to GWs finecast. GW beats them in the bitz department though, Only the plastic Orcs and Greataxes has extra bits (weapons and snotlings mostly). As for converting I dont see why not, it's just plastic and resin.
How's the quality, how much of an army does it make, can you convert them, and how many extra bits do you get in the KoW set though?
If you build it "as is" it's 580 points (without any magic items) which is totally playable, I usually play 1000-1500 point games. Quality-wise it's pretty nice, I prefer their resin-mix to GWs finecast. GW beats them in the bitz department though, Only the plastic Orcs and Greataxes has extra bits (weapons and snotlings mostly). As for converting I dont see why not, it's just plastic and resin.
How many points do you get in the GW set though? Granted, there is still a 20 pound difference between them, but as they say, the devil is in the details. Spare bits are always good. I tend to use them to build characters. Much cheaper than buying the blister from GW.
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.
I can play tic-tac-toe for free.
It is true that some games are free. Price is not the only factor that a player considers when purchasing a game. Tic-Tac-Toe does not appeal to many wargamers. It lacks depth, does not have miniatures, has no background/story etc.
The games that I mentioned above all have miniatures, interesting gameplay, and background. They are also displayed on store shelves right next to Fantasy. The comparison for gamers dollars is a very realistic one.
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
They are all games that compete for gamers time and money.
By that argument, your quoted cost is exhorbitant.
I can play tic-tac-toe for free.
It is true that some games are free. Price is not the only factor that a player considers when purchasing a game. Tic-Tac-Toe does not appeal to many wargamers. It lacks depth, does not have miniatures, has no background/story etc.
The games that I mentioned above all have miniatures, interesting gameplay, and background. They are also displayed on store shelves right next to Fantasy. The comparison for gamers dollars is a very realistic one.
Where you are, yes. I have not seen a set of infinity nor malifaux in any of the FLGS I've been in. I did see a set of AT-43 though.
Depending on how you equipped the stuff in the WFB Orc battalion I reckon it would come to maybe 300-400 points at best.
The models are a little nicer, but it's down to individual tastes in some ways too- some may like the slightly more understated Mantic Orcs, others may prefer the more cartoony but more detailed GW Orcs.
Da Boss wrote: Depending on how you equipped the stuff in the WFB Orc battalion I reckon it would come to maybe 300-400 points at best. The models are a little nicer, but it's down to individual tastes in some ways too- some may like the slightly more understated Mantic Orcs, others may prefer the more cartoony but more detailed GW Orcs.
Hmm so it's either pay more for fewer, but higher detailed models with many spare components, or pay less for more but not as finely detailed models with no few components.
Pretty much! I think the difference in quality is not significant (to me), so much that if I were doing my Orc army again I'd go all Mantic. I have a fully painted GW orc army though so, no need.
Hmm so it's either pay more for fewer, but higher detailed models with many spare components, or pay less for more but not as finely detailed models with no few components.
Well I gotta admit that it was a while ago I looked at GWs orcs up close but I dont think there is any difference in the level of detail, It's just two different aesthetics.
I was in the poundshop today and noticed there was a bag of 50 plastic army men for a quid. They were old Airfix moulds, and the flash was pretty bad - and they were a weird mix of British, Japanese , German and US paras - but the were ideal for the cost conscious wargamer. And free rules are not hard to find... meh if you are that worried about free, just make them up yourself, it's not hard... a copy of Charles Grant's The War Game will prove invaluable - ask Rick Priestly...
As for the actual question, there is very little wrong with WFB at present. The culture surrounding it is pretty toxic but GW appears to be attempting to gently lead it by the hand back to the optimistic/experimental times of the late 70's and early 80's. Which is nice. There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.
Which may or may not be related to Jervis' holidays on Crete
Marielle, that's a fallacious argument. The steep start up cost and time investment in Fantasy these days really is a factor in why you might not see many fantasy players. Comparing Mantic figures to plastic army men is pretty poor form- the better sculpts are not far from GW in terms of quality.
You are also quite insulting towards a lot of people in your second question. I don't understand why so many "casual gamers" feel the need to be like that towards the so called "hardcore tfg" crowd.
marielle wrote: There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.
I would say the folks you describe are the ones clinging to GW's 'systems'.
Free thought = buying the models you like from any manufacturer and using them all in whichever system (sorry, 'system' ) you like. Sounds like GW to me...
Da Boss wrote: Marielle, that's a fallacious argument. The steep start up cost and time investment in Fantasy these days really is a factor in why you might not see many fantasy players. Comparing Mantic figures to plastic army men is pretty poor form- the better sculpts are not far from GW in terms of quality.
You are also quite insulting towards a lot of people in your second question. I don't understand why so many "casual gamers" feel the need to be like that towards the so called "hardcore tfg" crowd.
a) I didn't mention Mantic
b) I didn't ask a second question
marielle wrote: There is still some work to be done on the neurotics within the fan-base who appear incapable of free thought, but they are gradually being moved over to other game companies and 'systems' where they can indulge their passion for being told what to think and do.
I would say the folks you describe are the ones clinging to GW's 'systems'.
Free thought = buying the models you like from any manufacturer and using them all in whichever system (sorry, 'system' ) you like. Sounds like GW to me...
Play nice children, Grampa's tryin' to take a nap....
Seriously - what's 'wrong' with fantasy is the expensive buy in - yes, there are ways around it, from eBay to diorama bases, to the use of miniatures from other companies. (It has been more than a decade since I last played with a group that cared what company made the minis.)
But, something to bear in mind is that this forum is an educated audience - one that almost by default knows about these options, or will as soon as they read more than three threads....
Your average mook in the street has no idea about buying Warhammer with online discounts - this is how an awful lot of stores stay in business, and not just GW or gaming stores in general . Folks go into the mall, plunk down their pence, and make their purchases. (This is changing, and fast - but I do not believe that is yet a majority that shop online.)
So, ignore eBay and the online discounters - and goodness knows that GW really wants you to ignore the discounters and eBay.
There are some armies that you can get into for less money - and others for much more money.
So, on that level... the game is expensive to get into, and for a beginner, very time consuming if you do not want to field an entire army in bare plastic.
For a beginner, painting 300 zombies is daunting, while for an experienced painter, who knows about and is willing to use the paint and dip method, that is a couple of weeks. (Been there, done it, still patting myself on the back over it....)
It was much easier with Mordheim.... but that is skirmish level.
Saldiven wrote: I just want to interject that comparing pricing of WHFB to Infinity or Malifaux is not terribly accurate because they're not the same type game. It would be more accurate to compare Infinity or Malifaux to Mordheim.
Except that GW doesn't do small skirmish games anymore, all of the mentioned games take a similar amount of time to play, and when you boil it down to useable units (1 block of 40 infantry as a single controllable block) you get a similar number of things to push about the table and similar strategic depth (depending on your rules).
GW is pushing towards bigger games, whilst gamers are migrating towards smaller games.
That's certainly true to a point, but I'm also seeing a lot of people locally buying skirmish scale games; rather than having an army for a game or two they are collecting a faction for dozens of different games.
And that can only be a good thing in terms of variety
In my experience people aren't moving away from big battles, people are just leaving GW.
For every person in my local area that leaves 40k for warmachine another leaves 40k for dystopian wars.
Hmmm....I sure hope we get our Dys Wars community booster back soon over here. WM/H is booming and Infinity is growing locally, but it would be great to see some Spartan and DZ Commander action here.
It's a bit difficult to judge the success of WHFB and 40k in Norway since I am not really embedded there, but the general impression is of a stable 40k scene and a WHFB tournament scene that's lost the growth it had when 8 hit and reverted to its end-of-7th edition level, or perhaps a bit below. However, it might also be considerably healthier as - at least locally - there is a casual tournament scene in the local club that is seeing quite a few players show up.
GW rules are badly written. Within a week of a new release, there are pages and pages of questions about rule meanings and rules interacting in unintended ways... or are they unintended? Questions that SHOULD have been answered in editing are left for FAQs months later.
GW minis, while not terribly expensive from a 'hobby' perspective (consider the costs for most sports, for example), are of above-average cost when compared to other miniature manufacturers. And it doesn't help that the game requires a LOT of minis to play, even at fairly low point costs like 1000-1500 points; never mind the 2500-3000 points for the 'average' game.
However...
If I want to play a pickup game, all I have to do is grab my army and head down to the FLGS on Warhammer night, and I'll get a game in. The only other miniature games that comes close to it in terms of local popularity are 40K (another GW game) and Warmahordes... which rather leaves me cold because I'm not a fan of either skirmish games or steampunk in general. Other games are 'search to find a player and then schedule a game', because those people playing the other games are scattered quite thoroughly among the different options, so the odds of someone 'just happening' to bring in a force for a pickup game is somewhere between non-existent and 'yeah, right.'
GW brings one thing of value to the table: LOTS of other players for me to game with.
But even that is changing, as folks move to other games.
There are stores that have Warmahordes nights, Malifaux nights, and other games. (Those two are the only non-GW ones that I can attest to locally.)
There are now two stores in a fairly large 'local' area. One is GW only, and the other is slowly moving away from GW - and was before the newer GW only store opened. (They still have a Warhammer 40K night, but no longer have a Warhammer Fantasy night.)
The GW only store is struggling - the other is booming. (Diversity helps - but the diverse shop also pays less for its rent and has a larger place.)
I didn't even know about the GW only store until last week - and if I had waited another six months then I suspect that I never would have heard of it. :(
azreal13 wrote: Anybody want to come in with me on developing a 10mm mass battle system and associated mini range, then Kickstarting it?
(This is tongue in cheek, but the more I think about it...)
Increase it to 28mm heroic, and maybe.
I don't like the 10mm scale, too tiny for my liking. Which is a pity, becuase the Dropzone Commander rules (which are in 10mm scale) are pretty solid.
I'm not a fan of the alternating turns system, but I do like how the FoC scales with the size of the game, and with how you have to move the objectives off of the field, instead of just sitting there.
Since 10(and 15)mm also represent larger masses of troops on each stand in many other ancient/medieval systems, and other rules (like Gore's excellent Medieval Warfare) use 28mm on stands to represent the same, you could easily use 28mm heroic for the mass fantasy battles. Good old Raven (by Harlequin Games) did and was an excelllent systen.
WHFB doesn't (see elsewhere for why WHFB isn't truly a mass battle system, but an overgrown skirmish game), of course, but if people truly wanted a mass fantasy battles system, 28mm would be as good as 15 or 10. You have to get down to 2mm to represent troops in the masses you'd want for even a relatively small medieval-style battle, and by then you're painting ranked dots rather than miniature soldiers.
azreal13 wrote: Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.
Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'
So why didn't Warmaster work?
And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.
Warmaster is a good game. However, Lord of the Rings was released shortly after Warmaster and many players probably chose LOTR SBG over Warmaster. There are also many gamers/painters who will not buy 10-15mm scale minis.
azreal13 wrote: Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.
Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'
So why didn't Warmaster work?
And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.
You also have a bit of a chicken and egg situation there, did SG's not sell so GW dropped them, or would they have sold if they'd not be left to rot for years unsupported?
Yeah I think fantasy is overall a better game. There's no OP space marines and usually situations are way less ridiculous though there have been moments when greater daemons have been killed nothing can be or is ridiculous as the emperor or horus's physical blows being strong enough to destroy planets. A friend talked about tyranids wiping out the squats and yeah i'll give them that but 40k feels more stagnant for the most part. There's a bajillion worlds and nobody matters but each battle doesn't matter. In fantasy the empire has been almost destroyed by just about all the baddies (skaven, orcs and goblins, chaos, etc.). Also fantasy has a sense of humor where 40k pukes and sh*ts grimdark. The whole space marine bit also feels a bit childish sometimes.
Then there's the deal with instead of the game being about a million flavors of space marine there are plenty of factions that are played. If empire are the generic human good guys the story focuses on then they are under-played for such a side. I've seen so many different factions played (lizardmen, orcs & goblins, vampire counts, warriors of chaos, high elves, dark elves and skaven though much less for stuff like bretonnia, beastmen and similar). It's still different than facing the same army 80% of the time.
I think part of the problem lies in that people prefer sci-fi fantasy to fantasy. Also I've talked to some that just didn't really know what side to start with warhammer fantasy. Then there's the deal with fantasy being more complicated game-wise. The price is a problem but it is with 40k too. That said the model count of armies is bigger in fantasy.
azreal13 wrote: Mass battle doesn't work at 28mm Heroic, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.
Let's face it, nobody really plays for the spearman, archers or clan rats, it's all about the big gribblies and mass blocks of large regiments.
Perhaps go 15mm then, but any bigger and you start to lose the scope and manouvering opportunities that a smaller scale gives you on a 6'x4'
So why didn't Warmaster work?
And don't say "because GW dropped specialist games", because they wouldn't have done so if they were selling sufficiently.
You also have a bit of a chicken and egg situation there, did SG's not sell so GW dropped them, or would they have sold if they'd not be left to rot for years unsupported?
The specialist games all have a fatal drawback to GW; you don't need to buy so much of it, and/or it costs less. You can build a Necromunda gang or a Warmaster horde pretty cheap and then not have anything to buy. You have to spend a lot more for a complete Warhammer army. So they could have been doing well and GW killed them to pursue more profitable options.
Agreed, it also fits with the general apparent pattern of GW not valuing anything that has non-financial benefits, ie these lower-cost, small force games were brilliant gateway products into the larger, core games. Managed properly I still maintain SG could have been a fabulous asset for GW and a great generator of new players and enthusiasm and goodwill amongst veterans, but what do I know?!
Yeah, BFG would have been a great gateway to the Wh40k world.
Cancelling that was a financial blunder, imo. Especially when you factor in the demographic of people who like space combat.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, BFG would have been a great gateway to the Wh40k world.
Cancelling that was a financial blunder, imo. Especially when you factor in the demographic of people who like space combat.
Ironically, I hadn't played BFG since the version where you threw the dice into the box lid to see what you hit and missed, but I have subsequently, since coming back to wargaming in mid-5th 40K, gone cuckoo for X Wing, and would be all over BFG if it was still readily available.
As it is, I'm pretty much done with 40K for the time being, I have models to paint for months and won't need any more, and rather than go for a Fantasy army, as I did when I reached this stage back in 2nd Ed days and buy some Brettonians, I've invested heavily in Darklands from Mierce, the aforementioned X Wing and have plans to move on to Infinity once my collectors for those are mature. So that's a whole bunch of hobby cash that simply won't go to GW because they don't offer enough options for people to explore once they've reached the point where I am.
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.
My problem with Fantasy is no one I know plays it anymore and even among people I don't know it seems impossible to get a game.
Well that's the first problem, I also hate a lot of the 8th edition changes. They turned it from a tactical game in to something which amounts to "push large amounts of models forward, roll lots of dice and hope for the best".
Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Vulcan wrote: As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.
Will that chance in the future? Good question.
No the question is...Do you care if it changes? Nothing changes by excepting the norm, you must be willing to effect change.
@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Lanrak wrote: @Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
I keep meaning to do this and finally got around to reading the rules yesterday. Seems pretty good, a little bare in some places (wargear) but I think I learnt everything I could possibly need in like half an hour.
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well. Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well. Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well. I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer. Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff. But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really.
But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well.
Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well.
Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well.
I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer.
Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff.
But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
I theorize that some of the CEO's cocaine may have ended up in the mix.
"...I keep meaning to do this and finally got around to reading the rules [Kings of War] yesterday. Seems pretty good, a little bare in some places (wargear) but I think I learnt everything I could possibly need in like half an hour...
If you already have WHFB armies, KoW is a low risk try. The free rules (also available in mini-rulebook/pamphlet format in starter sets) contain the entire core game rules.
For wargear, the hard cover includes two pages of magic items that you can use to boost units and heroes and to make them more unique (faster, stronger, heal-ier, more survivable, more range, more maneuverable, etc.)
The hardcover rulebook costs around $30-35 US includes all army lists up to about the time the Mantic Ogres and Basileans (humans) were released.
You can play humans with the list included in that book/free download and the Ogre list was still available free at my last time checking.
Glaiceana wrote: Since I started out more into collecting and painting, I chose an army that I really loved the look of, and that happened to be Tyranids. I did consider lizardmen or beastmen because they also looked awesome, but I just stuck with my first army choice, and my brother picked a few 40k armies, so I guess that's why I'm not in fantasy really. But you'd think fantasy would still be popular, what with the hobbit films being super popular etc, you'd think more people would be interested in it.
Probably a lot of them would, if they had seen some advertising and had the slightest inkling the game existed.
(My entire wargames career began with a TV ad for the board game Heroquest.)
Hmm that's true. Has there actually been tv ads for warhammer?
Lanrak wrote: Hi all, there is a 28mm mass battle fantasy game that works really well. Look at Mantic Games Kings Of War.
SPECIFICALLY written to scale up to larger games without slowing down.
And Mantic Games minatures are reasonably priced.(The Army box sets are excellent value for money compared to GW prices!)
The problem with Mantic is that some of their miniatures are absolutely HIDEOUS. I can't stand those elves, they just hurt my eyes. Their skeletons and humans are ugly as well. Some of their miniatures do look good, I love their zombies and I like their dwarves and orcs as well. I think most people are already aware of Kings of War as I see their miniatures used a lot for WHFB. Regarding the rules, I must say that I prefer Warhammer over Kings of War. Not that Kings of War is not good, but I just prefer Warhammer. Kings of War is also sadly lacking in fluff. But, you are right, their army boxes are a really good deal compared to GW's overpriced stuff. What does GW use to make those miniatures? Pure gold?
I theorize that some of the CEO's cocaine may have ended up in the mix.
Wow so one commercial the year I was born? How is there not more lol. How about Games Workshop specific TV ads?
If you consider KoW has only been about for 3 years or so.
And WHFB has been on the go for over THIRTY YEARS!
it is hardly a surprise WHFB has got deeper background fluff than KoW.
The guys at Mantic wanted to get the game play defined and refined first,and then build up the background. And the background is filling out nicely IMO.
It is possible to use WHFB minis and background with KoW rules .(There are lots of Fan Lists that support this.)
I find it much easier to write my own background and narrative , than develop a fast play rule set for massed battles in 28mm.
Vulcan wrote: As yet, it doesn't do one thing I need it to do - allow me to walk into the game shop with my army and get in a pickup game. There aren't enough (if any) KoW players in the area for that. In that it's like every other mini game in out area outside of WFB, 40K, and Warmahordes - you need to contact a player and schedule a game; pickup games simply do not happen.
Will that chance in the future? Good question.
No the question is...Do you care if it changes? Nothing changes by excepting the norm, you must be willing to effect change.
I actually have the short rules set for KoW and have offered to do some test games with other people. If they're not willing, what more can I do? I'm not going to hold them at gunpoint and force them, after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lanrak wrote: @Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
If you build a list properly, and not just combat blocks that lead a game to be stuck in for 3 turns, I don't think anything save cost per army to be wrong with the game. I used to play, but found Warmachine to be more fun than what I had of WHFB at the time.
Side note: that ad is for the GW that got me in to gaming up until I moved to a better shop just a little ways down the road. It just recently closed and said other shop got the painting table and gaming tables out of the dumpster.
The main problem I have with fantasy is that GW has totally taken a stance to neglect Wood Elves.. Before I began collecting my Grey knights I asked around about them because I was looking into playing but then I got "haha they haven't been updated in a decade" That and really just the fact it's hard to find a game of fantasy. I mean you have to really ask around to find fantasy players. at least where I am. It's kind of tough to invest when the games are much shorter and its harder to find matches as it is.
I want to see the wood elves come back as much as the next man, but for me, the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan . Well lets see then. IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists. Take them to your LFGS. And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews. YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT! (Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
So, with skirmish rules, not the main WHFB rules which clearly state it's a mass battle game.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:the biggest problem for fantasy (and 40k) is it doesn't know if it wants to be a RPG skirmish game, or a game for mass battles.
Instead, we get this horrible, halfway house approach, which can be a total mess at times. See storm of magic as an example.
WHFB knows exactly what it wants to be. It's a mass battle game, as we've already discussed several times. A 250pt game of Fantasy doesn't work. A 2500 point game is great. Storm of Magic should not be brought into this discussion. It is an expansion which, unlike 40k supplements, is not legal for regular play. It's the WHFB version of Apocalypse and is not meant to be balanced or competitive in any way, simply an opportunity to do crazy stuff and blow stuff up.
a 250 point fantasy game with the skirmish rules works nicely. 2500 point game is usually decided by uber magic spells going off, these days.
So, with skirmish rules, not the main WHFB rules which clearly state it's a mass battle game.
The Shadow does have the right of it on the response at many FLGS when Kings of War is introduced. It doesn't mean KoW isn't a solid game, but folks are often reluctant to try it OR if they do try, actually adopting it as a rules set.
Never underestimate geek peer pressure; bad experiences with previous companies who claimed to have the next big thing; and sunk cost fallacy (but I've spent so much on WHFB) to keep folks away.
In those cases where people do play it a few times, KoW shines through as a strong rule set with good mechanics. It's one of the few games (with a few cheese build exceptions) where I feel you can field almost any army and have a shot of winning.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.
Noir, That works great in some places but others simply will not change.
I worked one game store for 3-4 months solid demoing 'the new game' without success. In another place, I demoed 'the new game' for a couple of months and we had half a dozen regular players pretty quickly.
You're absolutely right that once upon a time, if it wasn't GW then everyone gave you the look. Nowadays, if it isn't GW or PP, then everyone gives you the look. The market is changing but it's taken over 10 years for PP to build up their presence to what it is now.
The biggest complaint about number of models compared to 40k and Warmahordes is just foolish. Warmahordes conversions and counts as are outright forbidden plus, change your casters and you might end up with a completely different list that focuses on different aspects of the army resulting in someone having to buy almost the entire range.
Fantasy, because of how units work, has these sweet things called unit fillers. Make a model that looks cool and it can take up 4-10 spots within in an infantry unit. Just take some of the extra bits that are now included in every kit and use a little creativity. Bam! you should saved yourself some major coinage.
Not to mention that those super sweet monsters that aren't super good but are really fun to build and paint? Unit Filler. Plus most of the armeis are now focusing on low model but hard hitting units (see MC and Chimeras) makes the model count argument out of date.
Not to mention that WHFB in my experience has the biggest emphasis on the movement and deployment phase makes it one of the least forgiving games when someone screws up deployment or hasn't grasped the nuances of movement and redirection.
Lots of good points have been made. I have to semi disagree with people who say its cost is to high because of how many models you need.
That is true to some degree but a lot of armies sell their units in 20 model boxes.
I think the problem is movement and lack of shooting. The issue I have found with movement is wheeling and pivots and stuff and it can sometime be hard when the units are in the trays. Getting between terrain is also an issue. In 40k the units are more skirmishy so you can wrap around terrain and stuff and is MUCH easier to understand for new player.
I also think that there is a lack of shooting. There is shooting but it isn't as important because there isn't as much of it. People want to shoot stuff I find and move less.
40k is more appealing to younger kids in some cases because its guns and stuff and there is WAY more of that in the media now adays with video games, movies and stuff. Less so with fantasy stuff with exceptions coming from the hobbit/lord of the rings movies. This could be a reason why fantasy is less popular.
I think Fantasy offers a lot of things 40k doesn't though. There is magic in 40k but it is less important than fantasy. I find fantasy is move your units around, cast devastating spells, shoot a little, close combat (Super important). It comes down to spells and close combat really.
40k is more shooting based with lots of cool tanks, vehicles and stuff.
Also basic rules are easier to learn in 40k for new players.
I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Are people saying 40k is for kids and stupids, thats funny haha
I agree and think more people (including kids which isn't a bad thing) are interested in sci-fi than a fantasy setting.
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
Agreed its a bit like saying WFB players can't cope with actual objective driven scenarios rather than just seeing which uber spell wins the game - its not true but in the same vein.
Sidstyler wrote: I really don't like the "40k is for KIDS and STUPIDS!" argument. Is it not possible that some geeks like sci-fi settings more than fantasy settings? I'm just saying, I didn't buy Tau instead of Beastmen because I'm fething stupid and think Fantasy is "too hard" to wrap my brain around.
This
Because Fantasy's ruleset has some different mechanics doesn't make it a better rule-set. I like 40k and Fantasy for the settings primarily, that fewer "kids" play Fantasy isn't indicative of "better".
Pivoting and wheeling aren't too difficult, but I will say that movement can get dodgy in a few situations. If I have a gripe with Fantasy, it's that you cannot always throw down any piece of terrain, and that Fantasy regiments won't necessarily look good or interact with a terrain piece well unless constructed with Fantasy regiments in mind.
*Shrug* I have never said that WH40K or Fantasy is 'only for kids or stupids'.
I do think that both games suffer from poor to nonexistent playtesting, and as a result have serious balance issues - but at the core that is a negative comment about the company more than the rules.
I had similar complaints about 4e D&D - and WotC has admitted that while they had large playtests they disregarded most of that data since it disagreed with the direction that they wanted to take the game.
In this case, the direction that GW wants to take the game is 'Sell more minis!!!' 'Make Kirby more money!! So he can count it!!!'
The core rules themselves... are pretty much okay, in both WHFB and WH40K. While not the best they are certainly well above average. (Well, except maybe the most recent versions of each - the rules in the latest WHFB are what sparked the local Kings of War community.)
I think that WHFB could do quite well, in hands other than those that currently hold the reins.
Also, in regards to the look of the Mantic skeletons - I agree they look hideous, if by 'hideous' you mean 'skeletons that actually look like they would fit in a human body - not some big handed big headed Hallowe'en costume'. (The undead are, in my opinion, the best looking of the Mantic figures, and beat the GW ones by a wide margin. I also like the elves - but not as elves, I use them as Sidhe in FRPs. The Men at Arms on the other hand... both Empire and Bretonnians beat them all the way around the barn.)
Well, aesthetics are obviously objective, but I gotta say, I just don't dig Mantics skellies. Sure the proportions are right. However, to my eye they look like cheapo plastic skeletons someone would put up as Halloween decorations, complete with drapey cloth, "boo!" poses, and evil, slanted eye sockets. The Mantic Ghouls and Zombies are pretty killer, though.
I should start a poll to see which people prefer, since the subject of Mantic vs. GW skeletons comes up really often.
The cost of the advertisement as an isolated fact is utterly irrelevant.
Good quality, well targeted advertising is like a good accountant, the use of which should be a net gain to the bottom line, regardless of the actual cost of the services.
Unfortunately the impact of advertising can be hard to assess (although with the rise of social media and other very specific forms, it is a lot easier) in comparison to something like an accountant, and GW doesn't seem to be interested in pursuing anything that doesn't bring an immediate and tangible financial benefit (ie anything that isn't a cost reduction or price rise)
Iron_Captain wrote: No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life It really comes down to your local area.
40k is more popular in general, which I think is due to it being more 'unique'. There are plenty of similar fantasy universes around in games, movies, books and whatever, but 40k's style and fluff is much more distinctive.
I agree with this 100%. There are just as many fantasy players in my area as there are for 40k. It just seems like they tend to play larger, longer games, so their planning for game-time is more deliberate and not on the spot.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: Well, aesthetics are obviously objective, but I gotta say, I just don't dig Mantics skellies. Sure the proportions are right. However, to my eye they look like cheapo plastic skeletons someone would put up as Halloween decorations, complete with drapey cloth, "boo!" poses, and evil, slanted eye sockets. The Mantic Ghouls and Zombies are pretty killer, though.
I should start a poll to see which people prefer, since the subject of Mantic vs. GW skeletons comes up really often.
~Tim?
Just make sure to put in options for 'Both are good!' and 'X is better, but both are good!' as well as 'I hate both! Give me X!'
Me... I have some of Bob Naismith's old GW skeletons and some of his equally old Grenadier skeletons - he has always done the evil slanted eyes.
I prefer Mantic, and do not like the GW skeletons all that much. (The above mentioned big head and hands....)
Mantic Ghouls vs. the currentGW ghouls is no contest for me - I really like the feral look of the Mantic ghouls.
But the older GW ghouls vs. the Mantic ghouls... ... ... I use both, but for different purposes. (The Mantic ghouls actually see more use in my tabletop Fallout game.) So even on that.
The best ghouls are the ones by Heresy, nasty, stinking, crusted things.
Back on topic.... I might as well mention that there are some decent PDF miniatures out there, which can be used to at least test both WHFB and KoW. Easier with KoW, since the rules are free, but odds are that if you are interested in trying WHFB then you know somebody that can loan you the rules, if not the army lists.
One thing that would help WHFB immensely is to include a simplified list for all their armies in the main rules - so people can at least try things out before making a dive into what could be an empty pool. The did, once or twice upon a time, but it has been a while. (like a decade and more.)
The Auld Grump, ack! girlfriend calling name! Must flee keyboard!
thelordcal wrote: Warmahordes conversions and counts as are outright forbidden plus, change your casters and you might end up with a completely different list that focuses on different aspects of the army resulting in someone having to buy almost the entire range.
Except for the part about counts as, this isn't really true. Conversions are legion in the WM/H scene, as is apparent at pretty much any major event. I don't think there is an unconverted Nyss Hunters unit in my entire meta, since their original heads (and occasionally other body parts) seem to be quite unpopular. And while some casters work better with different parts of the range, there are also several that take your existing army and make it do something different with the same models.
Hi all,
In my previous post I meant to say if you offer a gamer a chance to play a new rule set that has NO COST to them to try, other than arrange a couple of hours to play the new game.
Then most gamers would give it a go.
Its only when they have been influenced to such an extent by GWs' Warhammer games , they think ALL rules are over complicated and take ages to learn, or that you HAVE to spend £/$100s on new minatures before playing a game.
(GW cultivate this idea because the large investment required to actually get to play a full game of 40k/WHFB takes so much effort.A lot of people feel they 'HAVE to stick with it' to get their value for money out of it.)
I have been lucky in the fact ALL the LFGS and clubs I have been to ,play a wide range of games that are fun to play.We simply find rule sets we enjoy and use minatures we like the look of.I understand this is not an option for those playing in a GW store.
There are some games I dont like the game play of , no matter how well the rule are written.(I do not like 'over complicated games ' it is probably an age thing being an older gamer.)
But i think its only fair to give new rules a try to see if you like them.
So, I have a few questions. I stumbled into this discussion because I reclaimed my High Elf army that had been in storage on another continent since the last time I played around 1999/2000. I've already gotten back into 40k, and want to know whether it would be worth it to try and double my addiction with Fantasy or should I just sell the HE stuff and invest more in my IG.
1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?
2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?
3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.
4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?
1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?
Not much I would have thought - High Elf Spears are a couple of points cheaper now and Repeater Bolt Throwers are about 20% cheaper IIRC
2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?
Are we talking metals? I think a collector would be interested if they are unpainted.
3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.
Nothing concrete, although some kind of allies are expected come 9th edition and DoW type regiments may be made available via 40K type datasheets.
4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?
Reasonably competitive army if you take the right stuff. Glass cannon is how most people describe them.
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started
EXACTLY. You just illustrated my point. You need to "make a day of it". Very rare is the group into which you can walk with a new game and get everyone to play. You'll normally have to arrange a date and time and hope people turn up. Like someone who posted soon after you said, he tried pushing a new game and it didn't work. You might not get anyone who wants to play anyway.
TheNightWillEnd wrote:Hey all,
So, I have a few questions. I stumbled into this discussion because I reclaimed my High Elf army that had been in storage on another continent since the last time I played around 1999/2000. I've already gotten back into 40k, and want to know whether it would be worth it to try and double my addiction with Fantasy or should I just sell the HE stuff and invest more in my IG.
1.) First, I don't remember the exact points but I think I have about 1500-1850 points worth of Elves during whatever edition I was using back then. How much have the point values changed (i.e. how much more do I have to invest to have about the same amount of points now?)?
2.) Would those late 90's models still be worth anything to gamers?
3.) Probably covered in another discussion, but whatever happened to Dogs of War? Any whispers that GW is bringing them back? Have some DoW and really like them.
4.) What is the general opinion of High Elves these days? Cool, competitive army? Silly pansies?
1) I'd barely started school in 1999/2000 so I can't really compare what the points values are like now to what they were like then. In the new book this time around, points values did go down overall though. A normal sized game is anywhere between 2000-3000pts.
2) Depends what you mean by "worth". I think people will probably prefer the newer models on the whole but older armies sell cheaper, so you tend to get a lot of interest from buyers who just want the figures to use in games. I've seen old models go for quite a lot on eBay, depending on what they are.
3) I think it's gone, never to return, sadly. The new expansion, Triumph and Treachery, does allow you to use mercenaries - as in models from other armies - in games, so you could incorporate your Dogs of War there.
4) High Elves are a good, top-tier army, and they have plenty of viable builds and great potential for some awesome themed, very unique lists. The "silly pansies" is always going to follow HE around and it doesn't help that, if a woman gets into Fantasy, chances are she's picked HE, so some people may rib you about that. You just have to wipe the smile of their face on the battlefield
Lanrak wrote:@Vulcan .
Well lets see then.
IF you down load the FREE rules and army lists.
Take them to your LFGS.
And say here are some new rules to play fantasy games that have lots of good reviews.
YOU CAN USE YOUR WHFB MINATURES TO PLAY IF YOU WANT TO TRY THEM OUT!
(Or even just cardboard bases cut to the right size if you do not have any minatures!)
To total buy in cost for KoW to an existing WHFB player, a free download, and a couple of hours trying them out.
BUT if that is too much effort , then I guess you are GW plcs target demoghraphic...
Go on. Try it. I bet that you don't get the response you claim here that you would get. If you go into your FLGS and try and do this, most people won't bother. Put yourself in their shoes. You've come in with your WHFB models, probably after a hard day at work or something, ready to play a nice game of FLGS and some guy, who you may or may not know very well, asks you to try out a new game. You've got the choice of saying yes and you and your opponent can spend hours trying to grasp new, unfamiliar rules, with unfamiliar terminology, or you can say no and spend considerably less time (as you know what you're doing) playing a game that you and your opponent are familiar with and know you enjoy.
Here's an analogy. You've gone down to your local swimming pool, again, maybe after a hard day at work, to get a few lengths in, and, before you get in, some guy says "hey! Why not try out this new stroke I invented". Are you really going to spend your own time trying to learn this new thing this guy has asked you to try and learn, something which may take a while and you may not enjoy? No, you're going to get on with your own thing, something you know you enjoy.
Maybe this is something you could arrange, but that sort of defeats the point anyway.
Ummm.... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started
EXACTLY. You just illustrated my point. You need to "make a day of it". Very rare is the group into which you can walk with a new game and get everyone to play. You'll normally have to arrange a date and time and hope people turn up. Like someone who posted soon after you said, he tried pushing a new game and it didn't work. You might not get anyone who wants to play anyway.
privateer4hire wrote:Noir, That works great in some places but others simply will not change.
I worked one game store for 3-4 months solid demoing 'the new game' without success. In another place, I demoed 'the new game' for a couple of months and we had half a dozen regular players pretty quickly.
You're absolutely right that once upon a time, if it wasn't GW then everyone gave you the look. Nowadays, if it isn't GW or PP, then everyone gives you the look. The market is changing but it's taken over 10 years for PP to build up their presence to what it is now.
You mean like the guy I qouted with you, notice the part where he tried. That the biggest thing, have you tried? I'm mean really tried like him? Or you know offer to demo once them quickly drop it becouse you didn't want to rock the boat, and have people look at you funny? But, no I might have to spend hours in a game store talking with my friends while I wait. Why would I want to do what most of us do anyways and hangout.
I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.
Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.
Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.
Just sayin'
In previous editions, at least, it very much did have a higher model count - with one unit of an army containing as many models as an entire small army in WH40K.
A unit five men wide by six ranks deep contains thirty models.... That is the same number of models as three full Tactical Squads. And both Skaven and Goblin units are often larger....
Mind you, Imperial Guard and Orks also have larger numbers of models than Space Marines.
So, yeah - the model count was much higher, and may well still be higher, though I gather that the model count in the most recent WH40K is greater than previous editions - but I did not bother with either the most recent edition or the one preceding it. (Not likely to, either, nor did I go very far with the most recent WHFB - it just did not interest me.)
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I'd actually like to just toss in there that after watching a few batreps and perusing the rules and codices, it doesn't seem like Fantasy has an especially higher model count than 40k, contrary to the primary complaint in this discussion.
Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.
Just sayin'
Different data point: Chaos Daemons in the previous editions. Once I had enough models to play WHFB, I had more than enough daemon models to field two independent 40k armies at the same time.
Unit fillers, empty bases, and admitting that the models in the middle that you need forty of to get the bonus rank or negate someone else's bonus rank are strikes against playing WHFB. Because they amount to "The models for this game are so amazingly expensive that they'll force you to figure out ways to avoid buying them."
The problem with fantasy is the cost and time. look at what you are comparing it to:
New fantasy army: $500-$1000, plus 100 hours of modeling before you can play a half a dozen people on the regular.
Console/Computer: $500-$1000 for the brains and some subscriptions/internet: You can connect to the world and play a ton of different games (many of which involve controlling huge fantasy armies) AND watch movies or tv, or 'casts... or anything else on the internet.
The reason that fantasy has died faster than 40kIMO is because of the maintenance cost. Rather than just needing one new box for a unit, you need 4-5 to have a competitive unit. its very common for a fantasy box to be $40 for 10 guys, and accordingly for a single unit to be $150-$200 american. Also points costs have decreased, and unit sizes have increased, so even completed units have to be invested in... after a while it just becomes to much.
Most things have already been mentioned. Another for me is GW seems to have abandoned fantasy at this point. Most of the armies I like the look of are really old and they look like it. Add to that GW's mo of late to drop anything and everything that doesn't make enough money has me seriously reconsidering even bothering to get into fantasy at this stage. Probably better to invest in another war game once my space marines are done.
In my area, the back to back of the last two editions killed the game. 7th ruined it for most veterans, who went to playing a 40k that was in full swing and working half decently well at the time....they stuck with it through and into 6th and when 8th came out they didn't bother going back in because they now had two 40k armies for the cost of what they sold their Fantasy armies for....
....couple that with the astronomical prices to build a respectable 8th Edition Fantasy army which removes most new players from buying in....game dies.
Effectively, for those that remember, Fantasy went the way of Warzone 2nd Ed
Noir wrote: You mean like the guy I qouted with you, notice the part where he tried. That the biggest thing, have you tried? I'm mean really tried like him? Or you know offer to demo once them quickly drop it becouse you didn't want to rock the boat, and have people look at you funny? But, no I might have to spend hours in a game store talking with my friends while I wait. Why would I want to do what most of us do anyways and hangout.
I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).
Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.
@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)
All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)
If you are happy with WHFB , fair enough.
However, I really can not understand not trying out a rule set that is only going to cost you a couple of hours gaming time.(Free rules and you can use your existing minatures.)
If it is not to you taste fair enough. (Some people prefer strategic complication, to tactical complexity.)
But if you like the KoW rules, it it is another way to enjoy your hobby.
The Shadow wrote: Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.
You don't have to buy new minis to play KOW. Just download the rules, the rulebooks, and use your minis.
The core army lists cover pretty much all the classic fantasy factions : good elves, bad mean elves, orcs, dwarves, humans, undeads... And the community has build very nice and widely accepted army lists for the more WHFB-specific factions like the lizardmen or the skavens.
40k has always worked pretty nicely in the US. Probably that "pew pew pew" culture we don't have here.
WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far. The fantasy lore, although not as specific as 40k's lore, has its merits.
All in all, WHFB needs more time, energy and money than 40k.
Umm... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.
The Shadow wrote:
I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).
Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.
So, now you say it can work if you put the time in, but you just don't care that much to do it . Just like I put in my first post in this thread (qouted it here for you. So ummm... what was the point of all your posts again?
carmachu wrote: People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.
I would say though that 8th edition purely in terms of rules is kinda a take of leave it for most people. Either they like it saying its the best edition so far or hate it and more than likely quit the game. That has been my experience reading most warhammer fantasy threads on dakka and other sites.
Umm... that happen with every new game someone try to get the FLG group into. That why you make the day of it, giving demo to everyone that want to try and then do it again. This is how any game first gets started, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY is a cope out plan and simple. I never meet a PP press ganger, wonder how that got a following, ahh... yes a guy that liked the game demoed week after week. Same thing that got them playing some new game over the past few years. So the idea of how to get people to play has stayed the same and even works. You just don't walk away the first time you fail, unless you don't care in the first place.
The Shadow wrote: I haven't tried, no, because, as you may have guessed, I'm quite happy playing WHFB. One guy has managed to implement Malifaux into our group, but it's taken him about a year to get three other players and for the first few months he'd reluctantly box his Malifaux away and take out his Necrons. Our group alternates days that we meet on (Tuesdays one week, Wednesdays the next and so on) and because of that a lot of people, due to work and other commitments, can only get in once a fortnight. Then something crops up and they can only make it once that month. These guys don't want to risk spending their only hobby night of the month trying something they might not enjoy. They'd rather spend the time playing something they know they enjoy (which will be either WHFB, 40k or Warmachine in our group).
Everyone else was much the same. They didn't say "no I don't want to play Malifaux ever!" they said "sorry, I'd rather have a game of 40k" or something like that. That's the issue, I'm sure KoW, Malifaux and all the others are great games, but I have my own games which I enjoy for the reasons I've already stated. Starting KoW may be cheaper than starting WHFB, but starting KoW is not cheaper than not starting KoW.
So, now you say it can work if you put the time in, but you just don't care that much to do it . Just like I put in my first post in this thread (qouted it here for you. So ummm... what was the point of all your posts again?
Yes, it can work if you put the time in, organise a time and a place, get people to sign up to come etc etc. I'm not denying that, but that's not the point. The point is that someone - I think it was you, I can't really remember - said that "oh you can just bring in the rules and people will try it out". I disagreed with that, and put forward my reasons, which can be seen in my posts above.
Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow. You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)
All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)
Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.
Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)
All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)
Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.
Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the directWoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.
Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.
The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)
Using them would not even be using proxies - Mantic themselves allow the use of miniatures by other manufacturers, and go so far as to show some of those armies in their rulebook.
Lizardmen are harder - at the moment. I suspect that there will be something akin to them, but not for a couple of years. But, in the wilds of the interweb (also known as Warseer), there is a homebrew list, but nothing official, as of yet.
I've tried the list (or, more accurately, have played against the list), and it seems workable, if a trifle over powered at the moment.
There is another list here - but I have not yet played against it. (There is also a third list, somewhere, but the link that I had for it is dead.)
The Beastmen would in fact have to be proxies - I would use them as Orcs, since those stat the closest. I have not found a conversion for them yet.
There is an entire list of converted GW army lists in the Wikipedia article on Kings of War.
carmachu wrote: People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.
I would say though that 8th edition purely in terms of rules is kinda a take of leave it for most people. Either they like it saying its the best edition so far or hate it and more than likely quit the game. That has been my experience reading most warhammer fantasy threads on dakka and other sites.
This. My FLGS saw an explosion in players. We went from have a league with 12 players before 8th to 30 players after with a lot of new blood. But for those that hated the random charge range, they were gone. They had been use to the 1/8th inch precision required for 6th/7th. With that gone, they didn't want to adapt.
But the game did suffer with GW providing zero support release for nine months before releasing the first army book. In that time, a lot of people who were turned off by 8th had started playing other games and by the time new army books finally started coming, they had moved on and weren't interested in the game anymore. That delay did more damage to the game then the rules or miniature prices.
As for some of the comments people are tossing out, have to address some misconceptions.
1. GW raised point level of the armies. The only GW tournament during 8th is the throne of skulls tournaments and those are 2000 points. Army points were driven up to 2500 by players suddenly not able to field their greater demons anymore or players not wanting to have to choose between a wizard lord or fighting lord. Those players wanted to field everything and didn't want to make hard choices. My play group dropped from 7th's 2250 down to 2200 and was enjoying things. Point levels didn't shoot up till we were seeing all the tournaments were playing with 2500 that point levels started to creep up as people prepared for tournaments.
2. Cav is dead. The five man cav unit is dead. Players whose only tactic was to run 5 knights into the front of a unit, kill the front rank and run them down got pissed because their "tactic" for the last two editions didn't work anymore. I still see plenty of Black Knights, Empire Knights, and Silver Helms units running around. They are deeper and rely on their high armor save to ground down the big blocks.
3. You can't get into the game for less than $500. Ogres were a hugely popular army because they were also cheap. You could field a full army for under $300 with the batallion box, a couple iron blasters, and three boxes of mournfang. You would have to convert the characters, but all the bits in those boxes made for better looking characters than the GW ones.
4. 8th forced people to field giant monsters. Uhhhhh... did you play 8th? Cannons killed monsters. Dragon riding lords disappeared and any monster that didn't have a +4 regen/ward save wasn't played because it was free points to anyone with artillery. It wasn't till WoC with combined Demon Prince with charmed shield and chimeras with regen that monsters started coming back.
I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....
What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.
Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.
Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!
Litcheur wrote: WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.
I've always felt Fantasy was vastly superior as an actual game because the rules are far more self balancing, where as the 40k rules are inherently unbalancing. 40k is too much rock paper scissors. If you take too many rocks and your opponent takes too many scissors, good for you, if your opponent takes lots of paper, you're screwed.
Fantasy on the other hand, for the most part you could make a good army that could take on a variety of opponents and not be hamstrung against any of them, you don't so much tailor lists as you tailor tactics.
However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".
However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".
It is not a "less tactical" game, it is a different tactical game. Flanking, redirecting, and delays are all still part of the game. How they are deployed is still active. Creating the matchups at the right time matters more this edition than last edition where whoever got the charge off normally won the combat. Deployment matters more this edition than last edition where forcing your opponent to deploy his key blocks before you do.
That you haven't played 8th and deride it is no better than the other posters in this thread that deride or dismiss other alternative games. And yes KoW is a fun game, though the characters are a bit too bland for my tastes and don't seem to impact the game at all.
As for "large piles", with the Dark Elf book, you're seeing MSU again with players bringing multiple 10 man witch elf units as sacrificial redirectors that inflict nasty damage on the charging unit and setting up a counter charge from your heavy hitting blocks.
@azreal13 So as a self confessed cavalryman, you would always run straight into the front of block pike units knowing that you always can beat them? Because that was what happening in the game in 6th and 7th. People stopped bringing block troops because of this. Cavalry are meant to serve as flanking units, not frontline combat units that charge into everything. In 8th a charge from a cav block will still break smaller units and monsters, but they stall against big blocks. They were an "I win" button last edition.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: Sure, if you compare Skaven to Grey Knights, then you're looking at a big difference. But there are far more models in my average 2,000-point IG list than in any of the 2,000-point Fantasy lists I've seen so far. The main difference, it seems to me, is that in Fantasy, you're almost always going to be maxing out the points and proportions for individual characters, while the points seem to be more dispersed in most 40k armies.
Some people play this way and yes, the game does favor HeroHammer. Still, I've seen non-Skaven armies run 50+ blocks of infantry as well as numerous support pieces.
I think the main difference that draws people to 40k is that your models are all individuals. You can make and pose your guys any way you feel like. In Fantasy, you must always be concerned about ranking up and that can cause many headaches for you if you don't follow the assembly instructions exactly. Even then, you're likely to have problems (looking at you basic Chaos Warriors). Also, magnetizing bases is an alien concept to every 40k player I know.
azreal13 wrote: I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....
What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.
Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.
Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!
Never quite sure where the idea that Cavalry can change anything with impunity came from - historically that's not how they worked - if you charge a disciplined, ordered infantry formation they would loose, thats if they could get their horses to actually charge a hedge of bayonets, spears or the like.
On the other hand they love charging flanks of units, disordered or fleeing enemies - that's their primary role - hence they usually work with other units such as heavy infantry or archers - they are also there to guard against your enemies cavalry - especially on the flanks / rear.
Now Fantasy obviously has lots of units that might well change this - Undead and Demon cavalry don't care about dying, Cold Ones and other thick skinned predators might also be fine with charging into formed units, but the whole Cavalry automatically sweep all before it is not very likely or make much sense......
silent25 wrote: Creating the matchups at the right time matters more this edition than last edition where whoever got the charge off normally won the combat.
Maybe it was the armies I played, but I never found that terribly true in previous editions unless the charger was some hardcore high attack elite (something like wardancers).
Actually I found your comment about 5 man cavalry units odd as well, 5 man cavalry units never worked terrible well unless they were something like Saurus Cold One Riders where they could deal enough damage (3+ kills) to overcome static combat res of an infantry block or if they were backed up by a 2nd unit that offered a better combat res and/or kills. I had a Bretonnian opponent for a while who was always surprised that he kept losing to me because he charged in blindly and didn't inflict enough casualties to cause my units to flee, lol.
Fantasy for me at least was less about getting the charge (unless the unit has some charge bonus of course) and more about using careful and considered movement to manage your large units which had good static combat res and often contained a large portion of your victory points with supplementary units (which varied from army to army in their role). Some armies obviously were different, but I'd say more armies operated like that or in such a way as to disrupt that (like Brets and WE). When 8th rolled around, most the rule changes were going away from that basic concept, so right from the get go the rules were very "meh" to me. I hate the whole concept of random charge distances in a game that revolves around careful movement.
#1-the price. At around £20 for a box of 20 clanrats that's £1 per mini. Not too bad you say? Well I need at least 2-3 boxes for one unit. And Stormvermin are even worse at around £30 for 15 with a minimum requirement of 2 boxes again. The pricing of single heros are no better-between £10 to £20 for one figure. I am a student, and quite frankly even if I wasn't I still could not afford those prices. They are vastly obscene, especially given the amount I will need.
#2-gunlines. The last fantasy game I played was against a gunline Chaos Dwarf army. We where playing the 'divide the table into 3 and roll randomly for where your units go' scenario (rolled for randomly) which basically left me with all my army baring 3 units crammed into the left flank, the others being in the centre. Facing his army similarly crammed with the exception of 2 flame cannon batteries that where in the centre and right respectively. By turn three I had less than 20 models left. From a 2500 point horde. With several hundred models in my dead pile (i actually started packing them as they where killed-we ran out of room.) Those few to reach combat where subsequently massacred, as expected. 3 turns of slugging through a crapstorm of cannon and artillery fire. To be munched by a deamon cannon. Oh, and kill three dwarves.
#3-painting all those damn rats. An army of grey plastic is now becoming an idea. I simply have not the time nor patience to do that many Skaven. And with armies now needing more and more foot sloggers i am really beginning to despair. GW seems to be reducing the points price of infantry, whilst increasing the per model £ cost.
Also:
@ AllSeeingSkink - you have a very good point. He whom got the charge usually won. My big nightmare came from an opponent whom fielded around 30 Brettonian Knights into a single lance, then charged my main unit. Rinse and repeat, with a few smaller units to cover the flanks. Initiative mattered not, and with the 'every casualty cant fight' rule my counter attacks usually whiffed off his 2+ armour. I am glad that we finally strike at Initiative now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, nearly forgot this:
The starter set. Sure, the Skaven force is decent and reasonable, but the HE?
You get one minimum unit of light cavalry, one minimum unit of a weird spearman/bowman combo and a unit of heavy infantry with swords, also at minimum strength. The rest of the points are sunk into the giant flying catbird for the commander, and a fancy mage.
@silent25 and azreal13 - your both right. In the ancient times the heavy cavalry, such as the knights, would serve as the frontline chargers, breaking the enemy infantry with their charge. Light cavalry where used for flanking and harassing. Its only once you start to enter the later medieval to early raneisance phase that heavy cavalry start to become less of the one hit wonder they where. This is due to the increased range of projectile weapons and pikes being widely used. Its around this time that you start to get flanking cavalry, or cavalry being used as a follow up unit to exploit a broken foe.
xxvaderxx wrote: Nothing wrong with fantasy, 8th is by far and large the best edition to date.
People keep saying that, but people have left fantasy and its not nearly as popular as it once was. Two cant go together.
Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.
Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.
Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.
I would argue that Fantasy is for good or ill in my opinion a Technical Game rather than Tactical Game – A lot of it is about precision and specifics.
Thats does not appeal to everyone - esepcially if you just want to unwind with a game of toy soldiers killing each other
40K is quicker and more fluid – although is suffering from the present gun line emphasis in this respect……Terrain and usage of it actually matters in 40k as do objectives…
Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)
All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)
Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.
Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the directWoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.
Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.
The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)
Obviously, I'm not knowledgeable on KoW, but I'm browsing that section of the Mantic website now and can't find anything of the kind. Either way, it doesn't sound like you can make an army out of them to me.
azreal13 wrote:I'm not a FB player, only briefly played when it would have been ~4th edition, so I'm not in any position to debate your points except with regard to No. 2....
What a horrible way to implement cavalry. As a self confessed cavalryman at heart in basically every game I play (I always favour fast, manoeuvrable, highly offensive units) that just comes across as wrong.
Cavalry should move fast, hit hard and ride down their target. As much as you seem to dislike how they operated in previous editions, it sounds like they were functionally closer to what they should be, not turning up in numbers and standing there to grind out a result.
Well, I had only the slightest inclination to start WHFB, and that one piece of information has extinguished that altogether!
Mr Morden has a good point about cavalry. They're not invulnerable and should be overwhelmed by large blocks of infantry - i.e. ones that are so large as to rob them of their momentum. Cavalry is still perfectly usable in WHFB, just just can't get a cavalry unit and point it at an enemy unit and expect that unit to be wiped off the board. However, if that's your mentality, WHFB is probably not the best wargame for you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Litcheur wrote: WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.
However, I haven't really played 8th edition all that much because I don't like the rule changes. They've made it less of a tactical game and more of a "push large piles of models toward enemy and roll a bunch of dice".
xxvaderxx wrote: Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.
Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.
Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.
That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.
Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.
xxvaderxx wrote: Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.
Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.
Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.
That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.
Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?
The Shadow wrote: Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?
Wondering which quote that was aimed at. . . .the Euopean comment that Americans need accesible things that can be terrible like the nazis, or the snarky American comment relating the European comment to the Europeans?
On topic, I still see and find more people play FB than ever. I have only been looking for about ten years though.
The Shadow wrote: Let's save the racial remarks for World War 3 shall we?
Wondering which quote that was aimed at. . . .the Euopean comment that Americans need accesible things that can be terrible like the nazis, or the snarky American comment relating the European comment to the Europeans?
@The Shadow.
The point I was trying to make was you can find out if you like KoW rules set or not, for very little cost.
We just used sheets of card board cut to the right unit base size with what the units were written on them to try the rules out!
(We had fun games without minatures until we saved up to by Mantic Army deals.Very good value for money IMO.)
I am not saying turn your back on WHFB, just see if you like KoW rules.
If you do you can play both games if you want to.Or stick to WHFB if you prefer.
Seeing as it's a good time to ask, are these the Mantic KoW full rules, or just a toned down version. Because whilst I appreciate KoW's relative cheap-ness and its ease of access, I really do not like these rules. They're far too simplistic for my liking and there's not enough variety in the types of units, I also don't like the fact that each unit has a set "to hit" and "to wound" value.
The mechanics are all there. From memory, aside from the 'advanced rules' (campaigns and sieges), it's only missing a few examples/diagrams, about 2 dozen more magic items, and of course the full army lists for the factions (what it has in there are the models included in the one player starters, because that booklet is included in them).
We just used sheets of card board cut to the right unit base size with what the units were written on them to try the rules out!
(We had fun games without minatures until we saved up to by Mantic Army deals.Very good value for money IMO.)
Could you not just do the same with WHFB? Fair enough, you'd still need to cough up for rule books, but that brings your start up cost to under a hundred quid, as opposed to a few hundred, and if you don't like it, you'll recoup about 80% of the cost of the rules by selling them on ebay, so I guess you can try warhammer for around a tenner by that logic...
Nothing wrong with Fantasy where I'm at, in fact, at the club I go to we only play Fantasy, 40K has been abandoned.. almost as soon as 6th came out actually.
I prefer Fantasy to 40K but do indeed love both games.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies.
If you play Lizardmen, or Beastmen or Skavens, you just use the Lizardmen, Beasmen or Skaven army books written by the community.
They are well known and widely accepted in friendly games.
So, basically, trying KOW will cost you nothing, except maybe 10 sheets of paper, some ink from your printer and 2 to 3 hours of your time to play a couple games.
Litcheur wrote: WHFB's game system may be slightly better and more balanced than 40k's, but not by far.
I've always felt Fantasy was vastly superior as an actual game because the rules are far more self balancing, where as the 40k rules are inherently unbalancing. 40k is too much rock paper scissors. If you take too many rocks and your opponent takes too many scissors, good for you, if your opponent takes lots of paper, you're screwed.
I won't say it's vastly superior, but slightly better, and slightly more balanced.
As you said, 40k can be wildly unbalanced, and some matchups just can't be won, even by the most experienced players. The ruleset has huge loopholes and a metric f*ckton of near-useless extra super special rules. Not to mention the Space Marines. Sorry, guys, there is no DEQ (Dorf EQuivalent) in WHFB, because half of the armies aren't made of various flavours of dorfs.
However, WHFB also has the same flaws : codex creep, poorly implemented rules, loopholes... I mean, just read the Ogres FAQ.
And some flaws on its own. Not to mention the armies usually have more minis, and are more expensive and take longer to build.
But that's probably because more than half of the armies aren't made of blue dorfs with an inverted toilet seat on their banners, or blood carmine blood red blood dorfs, or light blue superextrabearded dorfs, or green emo dorfs, or spiky punk dorfs, or more blood dorfs (but bloodier than the vanilla blood variant), or green fartdorfs and pink porndorfs.
And don't even get me started on grey Mary-Sue dorfs.
Avrik_Shasla wrote: What's wrong with Warhammer? Other than some of the armies needing updates? Nothing. The game is amazing.
I played it a bit, and it did seem fun. But to me it just doesn't have the appeal of 40k. 40k just feels vibrant, huge, expansive, growing. Fantasy doesn't feel like any of those things, it feels like the lore was written down years ago and just stayed that way. 40k can afford to be ever-changing because it's so big that everything is happening somewhere - tyranids are destroying entire star systems at the same time as the Imperium is busy crushing them. Orks are always bashing gak at the same time as they're being crushed, etc etc. Whereas in Fantasy it's so small that things can't really change. Half of the Empire can't be conquered by Chaos or it'd change the fluff too much, the High Elves don't stray much from their island home, the dwarves are holed up in the mountains.
Also 40k has a clear protagonist - the Imperium. People may dislike it, but the Imperium has changed from its grimdark origins. Yes it's still pretty sucky, but it's also the only hope humanity has, and I feel sums up humanity as a whole in a way that no faction in Fantasy does.
xxvaderxx wrote: Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.
Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.
Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.
That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.
Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.
Sorry I had to.....haha I'm joking though cause you said you were being sarcstic
@xruslanx Saying that 40k is better fluff wise is a personal opinion I agree that some people like different things, some people prefer lord of the rings to star wars for example I don't think that it effects the game play at all.
I already posted here but I mean fantasy is cool 40k is cool. Some clubs/FLGS play 40k and some play fantasy some play both. Just play both and play other games to....divvvvversifffyyyyy!!! hahaha
Lanrak wrote:@ The Shadow.
You may find SWITCHING to KoW rules , (free download,)is CHEAPER than continuing to BUY rules and Army book for WHFB.(Even if you do not buy any more minatures.)
All trying out KoW rules needs is a couple of hours to play a couple of quick games to get the hang of the rules.(Assuming you already have armies for WHFB.)
Really? So what if I play Lizardmen, or Beastmen, or Daemons, or Warriors of Chaos. Mantic don't do KoW models that are similar to those armies so I'd have to proxy Lizardmen as Elves or something, not very believable proxies. If you start arguing that "yes, you can still get into a wargame by doing such proxies", then that logic carries forward to pretty much any wargame. I could start Space Marines with my Vampire Counts models, or X-wing with my Dark Elves. And don't say anything about free rules, because you could download the rules illegally, if you really wanted to.
Warriors of Chaos and Daemons are both present - the directWoC equivalent showed up in The Basilean Legacy, an abyss worshiping human army.
Daemons are also in the game, and can be found under several of the Abyss worshiping armies - Twilight Kin and Abyssal Dwarfs for a start, since they are in the main rulebook, and are free in the online army lists.
The lists are closer to older WHFB Chaos armies - the Abyssals are not the main forces of an army, at least if you want war machines and heroes. (You can get one hero and one warmachine for each Solid Unit, Abyssals do not count as 'Solid Units' .)
Obviously, I'm not knowledgeable on KoW, but I'm browsing that section of the Mantic website now and can't find anything of the kind. Either way, it doesn't sound like you can make an army out of them to me.
Obviously - you are in fact not knowledgeable about KoW.
But then there is no reason that you should be, unless you frequent the Mantic forums or have bought the Basilean Legacy. (What, you thought that I was going to disagree with you? )
The Basilean Legacy human abyssal army list (which I mentioned as the 'direct equivalent') is not yet in the free lists - though their goody two shoes enemy (the Basileans) are The Basileans are, for all intents and purposes, the Army of Law - complete with winged angels and mounted paladins.... (Including angelic characters.)
As for making a non-solid Daemon army, from what is in their free lists.... These are taken from the Twilight Kin army list.
Gargoyles* Infantry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (5) 10 4+ – 3+ 5 9/11 50
Half-Regt. (10) 10 4+ – 3+ 10 10/12 90
Special: Fly, Regeneration
These are winged lesser Abyssals - lesser Daemons, if you prefer. Gargoyles and Harpies are their GW equivalents, I think.
Lower Abyssals* Infantry
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
Troop (10) 5 4+ – 4+ 20 11/13 115
Regiment (20) 5 4+ – 4+ 20 14/16 150
Horde (40) 5 4+ – 4+ 40 21/23 285
Special: Regeneration
Options
• Banner (+15 pts)
• Musician (+10 pts)
The foot Daemons - Anything from Bloodletters to Plaguebearers. (I have seen them fielded most often as Daemonettes - using GW and Raging Heroes miniatures.)
Death Stalker Simulacre [1] Monster
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
1 6 3+ – 6+ 10 20/22 375
Special
Crushing Strength (3), Elite
Anything from Juggernauts to Beasts of Nurgle to Chaos Spawn.
Abyssal Fiend Monster
Unit Size Sp Me Ra De At Ne Pts
1 7 4+ – 5+ 7 19/21 325
Special
Crushing Strength (3), Regeneration
Options
• Can have wings, gaining Fly and increasing Speed to
10, but reducing Defence to 4+ (+25 pts).
• Can have the Breath Attack (10) special rule (+25 pts).
• Can have the Zap! (5) special rule (+25 pts).
Greater Daemons - from Bloodthirsters to Keepers of Secrets.
Most often I have seen this figure fielded in the same army that I mentioned above -
(He has a Slannesh army - but has been fielding it in KoW - he likes being able to mix WoC with the Daemon list. He has had the army since back when WHFB had a combined army list for all of Chaos. The figure is from Ultra Forge.)
The problem kicks in if you are trying to field an all daemon army - the units with an '*' next to their name do not count as Solid Units - so you can't take an Abyssal Fiend with a unit of Gargoyles - you would have to take a unit of mortal troops to get the Monster or a Hero.
DaemonsAbyssals are meant as support, not as the backbone of the army.
Que has Basilean Legacy - he has an army that is mostly heavy cav, with an Abyssal Fiend and a mounted general. (I have not yet gotten the book - the one time I went to order it The War Store had run out. What I am really waiting for is the PDF.)
Mind you, an army of nothing but Gargoyles and Lower Abyssals would be pretty nasty - even without Heroes or Monsters, so an all Daemon army can be done, but only without Heroes, Monsters, and Warmachines.
Mostly, I would suggest trying the game out - proxy if you must, but almost all of the folks that I play against have repurposed their WHFB armies and use them in KoW, without changing much at all. We have an Orc and Goblin player, an Empire player, a Dark Elf player, a Wood Elf player, two Dwarf players, and two Undead players, and all of us are pretty happy with what we have.
The only grumbling is that the Steam Tank is not in the Kingdoms of Men list - and that was handled by allowing the tank as an Iron Dwarf from the Dwarf list to be used with the KoM list. (He also took a unit of Dwarfs, so it would have been okay, even without tweaking the rules - but telling him that he could use it anyway took out any remaining sting.)
xxvaderxx wrote: Actually they can, Fantasy is not a fluid game such as 40k, Americans which are a large part of GWs market, tend to dislike slower more complex games, everything has to be 20-30 minutes long, with shallow complexity to it, "accesible" as they call it. Fantasy is just not that. To put a reverse example, The natzi were both terrible and very popular.
Cost wise, Fantasy is probably more expensive but i dont think its twice as expensive as some have said, comparing skaven or empire to SM is ridiculous, while SM is an all elite army the other are cheap and expendable and mid range combined armes, dark elves or high elves would be a better comparison.
Fantasy in general is just not as popular as it once was, i doubt it has to do with the rules, as i mentioned before, every single rule is the best its been to date.
That's funny. I'm surprised that Europeans can play a tabletop game at all, given that they have lower IQs and have poor motor skills on top of that. I have no idea how they are able to read the rules, let alone move the figures. Strange that.
Also, thanks for the input that every single rule is the best it ever could be. Enjoy that as the game dies out because the majority of folks disagree with you. The rules are terrible, the game is outright bad and unfun, and I can't fathom why anyone would play it. See? My opinions can be stated just as authoritatively as yours with an equal dearth of reasoning.
Look, i mean no ofense, the natzi example, was intended to point out that just because something is well done, it does not make it popular and the reverse also true, just because something is bad it does not make it unpopular.
Regarding shallow and accessible games, i sorry if you feel offended, but i stand by it, World of Warcraft, Hearthstone, Apple`s entire OS design (accessibility wise), Magic the Gathering with its turn 7-8 i win cards. That is just the trend design has taken there for a while, it is not a reflect of their consumers IQ but rather their preferences and as i said before, fantasy just is not that.
Oh and by the way, im not European, not even on the same side of the Atlantic.
