So, this seems to be an issue that there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus on.

The issue seems to be this rule.

BRB wrote:p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

One side claims that if a FMC is declared to be arriving from Reserve in Glide mode, then it may indeed Deep Strike, since Jump Monstrous Creatures may deploy via Deep Strike.

The opposing side claims that the above rules only grant the FMCs the special rules of Jump units after they've selected a movement mode. In game, prior to deployment, they have not moved, and thus are not 'moving like' Jump units, and therefore may not claim the benefits of being a Jump unit (namely, the Deep Strike special rule.)

What do you think?

No where does it say FMCs deploys like a Jump Monstrous Creature

 Jimsolo wrote:


The opposing side claims that the above rule dictates how FMCs may move, not how they may deploy.

I would rephrase this as, ".. dictates how FMCs may move, but does not automatically grant them the Deep Strike USR."

I vote no because deepstriking is moving, running, or charging. It is deployment.

Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...

I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...

I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.

I'm actually not quite so sure on the intent here. They basically removed the capacity of Flyers to Deep Strike across the board (is there a single new Flyer in the updated rules that can Deep Strike?), making it seem like they intend the same for FMC's. This is one of those rules where I would like for FMC's to be able to Deep Strike (cause it would help my Nids), but don't actually think the rules support this interpretation at all.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


The opposing side claims that the above rule dictates how FMCs may move, not how they may deploy.

I would rephrase this as, ".. dictates how FMCs may move, but does not automatically grant them the Deep Strike USR."

Done!

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Like many things in 40k I think this is unclear... in the "jump" rules it mentions wings, but it's never directly stated that WMC's can do this...

I feel strongly that they are intended to deep-strike, and I would allow my opponent to do so... but I can see this being an issue.

I'm actually not quite so sure on the intent here. They basically removed the capacity of Flyers to Deep Strike across the board (is there a single new Flyer in the updated rules that can Deep Strike?), making it seem like they intend the same for FMC's. This is one of those rules where I would like for FMC's to be able to Deep Strike (cause it would help my Nids), but don't actually think the rules support this interpretation at all.

Hmm yeah that is a good point about the Flyers... my Blood Angel's StormRaven lost DS, and the FAQ gave winged-monstrous-creatures 'skyfire' bringing them another step closer to flyers. Well given that point I think you are right - but since they have 'wings' and it is still unclear, I would allow my opponent to DS in this situation.

Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

^ With that, I'm changing my vote to yes.

If a flyer cant DS, then a FMC can't DS.

 Eisensapper wrote:
If a flyer cant DS, then a FMC can't DS.

It does seem like they are very much trying to connect these two units - but at this time there is nothing that would make your statement true.

 Eisensapper wrote:
If a flyer cant DS, then a FMC can't DS.

Does that same logic work with grounding tests? Please?

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is in neither Swoop nor Glide mode, how does it move?
Does it move like a Jump Monstrous Creature? What rule says this?

The times that flight mode are chosen are:
1). When it moves,
2). When it deploys,
3). When it enters play from Reserve.

These are the only times the FMC rules allow you to declare a flight mode.

And not one of these times would allow you to Deep Strike. It's very much a timing issue.
Until one of those 3 condisions are met, there is nothing allowing the FMC to work like a JMC.
So when it comes to putting it into Deep Strike reserve, it is not moving like a JMC, or has any rule allowing a Deep Strike.

Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:

Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes

How it gets to deep strike is beyond me. I don't see the deep strike rule listed under FMC, so they don't get deep strike in my book. Moving like and Being are two different things

Nevermind. I want to change my vote to yes.

Only thing that I can see is that on pg. 49 Deepstrike is not noted as one of the special rules available to a FMC.

 Mulletdude wrote:
How it gets to deep strike is beyond me.

Chaos Daemon FMC's have the rule.

coredump wrote:

Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

coredump wrote:

Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.

Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.

Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.

Mulletdude wrote:Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:

Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes

How it gets to deep strike is beyond me. I don't see the deep strike rule listed under FMC, so they don't get deep strike in my book. Moving like and Being are two different things

Nevermind. I want to change my vote to yes.

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

It appears to not need a poll... it just is a yes

 Lobukia wrote:
It appears to not need a poll... it just is a yes

You mean no surely?

In light of this evidence:

 grendel083 wrote:
Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.

Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.

So it always moves like a jump MC, surely that fits the requirements of "moving like a Jump unit"?

PrinceRaven wrote:

 Eisensapper wrote:
If a flyer cant DS, then a FMC can't DS.

Does that same logic work with grounding tests? Please?

Seconded!!! Yes, please this!

grendel083 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

coredump wrote:

Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

This deserves a re-post, since people seem to not be reading it.... Look at his third point.

Problem is, it can't claim to be Swooping or Gliding until:
1). It moves
2). It deploys
3). Arrives from reserve.

Until one of those 3 conditions are met, it's neither Swooping nor Gliding.
So is not moving like a JMC, nor can it use any of those rules.

It's Schrodinger's Tyrant?

Seriously though, the rule does not state that it must currently be moving like jump infantry. It states that it must be described as moving like jump infantry. The FMC entry does indeed contain such a description and therefore it gains the SR weather or not it is currently swooping or gliding.

The problem that you run into is the timing as mentioned.

The FMC entry is crystal clear on saying that it moves exactly like Jump Monstrous Creature, but places a condition on that by startimg the sentence with a "If". That means ONLY if the FMC is gliding/swooping does it then move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature. Which in turn means ONLY if they are moving exactly like Jump Monstrous Creaturme does it have the Deep Strike USR.

Now as Grendel simplified it, you do not place a gliding or swooping FMC into reserves. You dont make the flight mode decision until after it arrives from reserves which by then is too late to have the USR.

I think grendel stated it the best.

The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

 Mulletdude wrote:
Lets not forget the BRB FAQ:

Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via Deep Strike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes

This doesn't actually prove anything since you can have an individual FMC with the Deep Strike USR even if FMCs in general can't deep strike.

From the other thread

 Krellnus wrote:
Going off memory here, you cannot declare a FMC to be swooping or gliding before or during deployment, combine this with the fact that, iirc, if you put a unit in reserve, you must declare how its arriving, whether that be walking on, outflank or deep striking.

Sinc FMCs do not have deep strike at deployment, they cannot chose to arrive by deep strike from reserves and thus must walk on.

Hmm after voting i realised this is one of those cases where both sides have rules quotes that totally prove their point. I voted "No" but would now like to change that to a "Maybe"

If that ever comes up in a game i'll let my opponent do it.

I answered Maybe, as the FMC needs to have the special rule Deepstrike, whether by part of the Daemonic Instability rule or otherwise. I don't think 'moving as' Jump Infantry gives them the Jump Infantry deepstriking ability , though I could totally see how it could be FAQd the other way.

But coming in Swooping from the board edge is still pretty good, not sure why anyone would come in Gliding since they can't assault upon arrival.

I say maybe. While I personally don't deep strike FMCs, nobody in my group complains about being done. And in the end I care more for how my group plays it then what the rules actually may be.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Peopl are trying to do stuff! Quick! Stop them with potatoes!!

I voted yes. Logic was provided, pussyfooting tried to prevent said logic. 6th Edition was poorly written in phases.

Just gonna need to deal with it chaps.

I can't see any advantage to deep striking an FMC... just seems like an unnecessary risk. I think they can deep strike and voted as such .

No.

The FMC is not gliding when it is prepared into reserves; and if it were to come in from reserves gliding that is too late to declare them deepstriking.

BRB pg 49 wrote:DEPLOYMENT
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts the in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

If the FMC is deployed at the start of the game, it must start in Glide mode. If you accept the logic that being in glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then it has the rule but cannot use it because it has already been deployed.

If the FMC is kept in Reserves then it may start the game in either Glide or Swoop mode but you only choose after the model enters play. If you choose glide mode after it enters play and if you accept the logic that being in Glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then it has the rule but cannot use it because it has already been deployed.

If the FMC is kept in Reserves and arrives via DeepStrike it will be in Swoop mode. If you accept the logic that being in Glide mode gives the model the Deep Strike special rule then the model cannot gain Deep Strike from being in glide mode until the turn after it arrives. For it to arrive via Deep Strike it must have deep strike from something other then being in Glide mode because the model cannot arrive in glide mode.

How are models that do not have deep strike arriving via deep strike?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Deep Striking counts as moving.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The requirement is only that it is described as moving like a jump unit, it is not required to actually be doing so.

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves.

Putting it into reserves and declaring that is wants to DS is not movement so it can not DS. (Unless the FMC in question has the DS USR).

Deep Striking counts as moving.

And that moving does not happen until after you have prepared reserves(which is not moving)

And FMC that deep strike have to do it in Swoop mode. Even if being in Glide mode gave you deep strike you can't use to actually deep strike!

 DeathReaper wrote:

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves..

It moves like JI in Glide *and* and Swoop modes...

coredump wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

And it can only move like a Jump unit if you select glide mode before it moves..

It moves like JI in Glide *and* and Swoop modes...

I know that, you missed what I was saying...

The point is when you try to declare Deep Strike for a FMC it is not swooping or gliding and does not gain the DS rule from those movement modes as the creature is being put into reserves, and not moving, and we all know that you pick Swooping or gliding just before the FMC moves, which is well after reserves are declared...

FMC can not DS unless they have the DS rule listed in their special rules...

The FMC can only move two ways. Glide, or Swoop. That is it. It will always be in one mode or the other, there are no other choices. The rule do not mention the existence of a 'neutral' option. There is nothing in the rules allowing you to pick 'neither'.

Granted, there is no way to know what the FMC is doing until it is declared upon deployment... but it has no option but to be doing one or the other.

In either case, it has the Deep Strike special rule. So, while we don't know for sure what mode it is in prior to deployment, we know that it must have the Deep Strike special rule.

If you are going to assert that the FMC is neither GLiding nor Swooping, then you must be able to state what it *is* doing, and you must be able to demonstrate where the rules allow for that.

The only FMC that I see that has the DS rules is in Deamons codex. If there is another I would like to see the codex and page number please.

There is a third 'mode' for flying monstrous creatures that hasn't been mentioned:
Grounded.

I do have to side with the people stating that it needs to be in either of the two states to gain the deep strike rule, which timing makes impossible, are correct because a lot of times it does all come down to timing. They do not need to prove what 'mode' the flying monstrous creature is in prior to deployment because they are putting forth the only way a Flying Monstrous Creature gains the Deep-Strike Rule is to be in one of these two specific modes. It is up to the people wishing to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous creature to prove that it's default state, before deployment, is one of these two modes. That is how a permissive based rule-set works, the side wishing to do X needs to quite a page and paragraph granting permission to do X. Until then it is irrelevant what mode the Flying Monstrous creature is in.

It could be in 'floating around the moon mode' for all it matters to the Glide, Swooping and 'changing Mode' sub-set's of Rules.

Personally;
I don't mind them Deep Striking for the same reason I like the new Sky-Shield sub-set of rules allowing the deployment of a flier ahead of the front lines: They both force the deploying unit into a mode which lacks the Hard to Hit Rule. This allows a full turn of firing, likely at a time when all of the non-deploying players strong hitters are in prime positions, to take full advantage of not having to worry about Snap Shot or loosing their valuable anti-vehicle/monstrous creature weapons that happen to also be Blast Marker based. If the vehicle or monstrous creature survives a single round at that point it will still be greatly crippled, more then enough that standard Anti-Air go-to will have no problem taking it out for good.

These Special Rules always look good on paper, but unless you have full control over the terrain itself they often become nothing more then death traps for very expensive units.

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

 djphranq wrote:

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

It is nice.
But missing vital parts.
And sadly wrong.

 grendel083 wrote:

 djphranq wrote:

coredump wrote:
Three rules to keep in mind:

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

p.49
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
(emphasis mine)

So, it doesn't matter if the FMC is gliding or Swooping, either way it will have the DS special rule.

I like this presentation. It is close to what I feel about the whole argument. I vote yes... YES WE CAN!

It is nice.
But missing vital parts.
And sadly wrong.

Probably... but its still close to how I feel about the argument.

coredump wrote:
The FMC can only move two ways. Glide, or Swoop. That is it. It will always be in one mode or the other, there are no other choices. The rule do not mention the existence of a 'neutral' option. There is nothing in the rules allowing you to pick 'neither'.

Granted, there is no way to know what the FMC is doing until it is declared upon deployment... but it has no option but to be doing one or the other.

I'm sorry, this is pure assumption that you cannot back up.
You are right in that you can not pick neither. But the model is in fact neither until one of them is chosen.
No rule allows you to pick one of these modes during reserve.
The times that you pick the modes are very clearly laid out, and not one includes reserve.
You're trying to select a movement mode when you have no permission to do so.

In either case, it has the Deep Strike special rule. So, while we don't know for sure what mode it is in prior to deployment, we know that it must have the Deep Strike special rule.

Again not correct. swooping and gliding have deep strike.
But you haven't chosen either of those, so have no permission to use them.

If you are going to assert that the FMC is neither GLiding nor Swooping, then you must be able to state what it *is* doing, and you must be able to demonstrate where the rules allow for that.

Why? Why must it have a state?
What rule dictates that it must be swooping or gliding? None at all.
The state is "Flying Monstrous Creature"
And until it selects either Swooping or Gliding it has no permission to use either.
And no rule anywhere states that it must be using one of those in reserve. No rule at all.

The *rules* allow for gliding and they allow for Swooping. Can you present a rule that allows for any other state?

Where in the rules does it allow for a third possibility?

As far as the rules are concerned, a FMC *always* moves like JI, just sometimes it has a few exceptions.

The way I understand the rule is that "for movement purposes" a gliding Flying Monstrous Creature works like a jump infantry unit.

It doesn't say anywhere it also gains deep strike. Deep strike is a deployment thing, rather than a movement thing. So, I would say no it doesn't also gain deep strike as that is not something "for movement purposes."

That is simply how I would play it. RAW is murky on the issue, and I believe RAI is even murkier on the subject. Considering the poll results, looks like this is a pretty devisive issue so I'd definitely at least mark this in the "talk about it with the TO or your opponent first regardless" category.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The way I understand the rule is that "for movement purposes" a gliding Flying Monstrous Creature works like a jump infantry unit.

Actually, a Jump Monstrous Creature, they do when Swooping as well.

It doesn't say anywhere it also gains deep strike.

Apart from in the Jump rules, you mean?

Deep strike is a deployment thing, rather than a movement thing. So, I would say no it doesn't also gain deep strike as that is not something "for movement purposes."

Where is this "for movement purposes" you seem to be quoting?

Doesn't it say for Flying Monstrous Creature that a "gliding Monstrous Creature counts as a Jump Monstrous Creature for the purposes of movement"?

I don't have my book on me to get the exact quote so sorry if I'm off a little bit.

coredump wrote:
The *rules* allow for gliding and they allow for Swooping. Can you present a rule that allows for any other state?

Where in the rules does it allow for a third possibility?

As far as the rules are concerned, a FMC *always* moves like JI, just sometimes it has a few exceptions.

Where in the rules allows you to choose to be Swooping or Gliding when you go into Deepstrike reserve?
Please answer that.

No where. Not one place. Not one rule. None.

Swooping or Gliding hasn't be chosen. There is no magic third state. It's simply a choice that has not yet been made.
Yes it always moves like a JMC. But you're not moving, you're going into reserve. And you CANNOT go into reserve as a JMC.

Under Gliding it states: "it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Yes it does.
Yet when you go into reserve the model is not in Swoop or Glide mode.
So how can it use those rules?
It can't.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

p.47
Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.

Right here, OIIIIIIO.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

It is described as 'moving like' a Jump unit...therefore it follows all the rules for jump units, and may use all the same special rules.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.

Edited the original post to update with the most cogent and current arguments.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.

No it doesn't.
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.

JinxDragon wrote:
There is a third 'mode' for flying monstrous creatures that hasn't been mentioned:
Grounded.

Probably because a Grounded FMC is treated as if in Glide mode.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Under Gliding it states: "it moves , runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."

Under Swooping it states: "it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions and clarifications..."

Your words via the BRB ...Where in those words does it give permission to DS if put in reserves. I see where it is given permission to MOVE like JI but that is done while it is on the board.

The description of FMC movement says that they move like Jump units. The requirement to gain the special rules of Jump units is that they are described as moving like jump units. How the model is treated is irrelevant, it is the description that matters.

No it doesn't.
It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.

Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.

Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?

irrelevant PrinceRaven.

The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.

This is understood right?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.

Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?

irrelevant PrinceRaven.

The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.

This is understood right?

Arriving via DS counts as moving per p36, which invalidates your argument.

The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Flying Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.

Therefore they use all the same special rules.

Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.

Therefore, Flying Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.

Therefore they use all the same special rules.

Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.

Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.

Boom! I like this too.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.

Therefore they use all the same special rules.

Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.

Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.

Flyers move like fast skimmers when they hover, does that me they get the jink rule for moving too?

No, the skimmer entry does not state that units that move like Skimmers gain their special rules, and the Hover entry states that Hovering Flyers are treated exactly like Skimmers, not that they move like them.

BRB page 81 wrote:If a Flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer.

BRB page 83 wrote:Skimmers have the Jink special rule.

Therefore, a hovering Flyer has Jink.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The BRB doesn't say "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules when they are moving." It just says "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

Jump Monstrous Creatures are, in fact, described as moving like Jump units.

Therefore they use all the same special rules.

Jump units gain the Deep Strike rule.

Therefore, Jump Monstrous Creatures may in fact Deep Strike.

Jim, this is very compelling. Although i think you man Flying Monstrous Creatures, not Jump Monstrous Creatures. I agree that a FMC in glide more or swoop mode with have the deep strike special rule, but where is the permission for the FMC to be in glide mode or swoop mode before it enters play?

Edited, DJ. Thanks for the correction!

To answer your question: it doesn't require permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode before entering play in order to gain the Deep Strike rule. The wording of the quoted rule on p47 isn't worded like that.

HappyJew,
Ah, Frequently Asked Question's we meet again....

Wonder why they changed it, I thought the rule was clear enough that a Grounded Flying Creature could not be considered Swooping which is where all the goodies are. Treating it as a gliding monstrous creature doesn't change anything at all, it will be Grounded during the opponents turn where it can't use any of the Jump Unit Rules until after it already gets the choice between flight modes for the following turn. For all real purposes a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and a Jump Unit would be identical in the situations they would find themselves in.

Unless there is a situation I am missing that would effect units which 'move like Jump Units' that I can't fathom?

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

It does not say a FMC moves like a Jump unit.

ONLY when swooping or Gliding can it move like that.

The model can do neither of those when in reserve. So cannot use the rules for something it is not.

Can you name any unit that moves like something while not moving?

irrelevant PrinceRaven.

The fact remains that you only choose swooping or gliding immediately before the FMC moves. This happens well after the FMC was put into reserves, and therefore may not make the choice to DS if it does not have the DS USR in its special rules because the FMC is not moving and can not choose swoop or glide yet. Therefore you may not reference the rules for Jump MC's to access the DS rule.

This is understood right?

Arriving via DS counts as moving per p36, which invalidates your argument.

Not at all, as you are not gliding or Swooping when you try to place the FMC into reserves to have it DS.

Please try again.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Edited, DJ. Thanks for the correction!

To answer your question: it doesn't require permission to be in Glide or Swoop mode before entering play in order to gain the Deep Strike rule. The wording of the quoted rule on p47 isn't worded like that.

Page 47 "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules. "

Page 49 " If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges like a Jump Monstrous Creature. "

Also Page 49 "If a Flying Monstrous Creature is swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature..."

Conclusion, if a FMC is Gliding or Swooping it uses the same special rules as a Jump unit. Page 47 only applies to a FMC that is gliding or swooping because page 49 only describes the unit as 'moving like' a Jump unit if the FMC is gliding or if the FMC is swooping. Permission to be either gliding or swooping is most definitely required.

Where is the permission to be gliding or swooping before the model enters play?

Hmmm. You make an interesting point.

Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. You make an interesting point.

Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?

Dead or inside a transport

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmmm. You make an interesting point.

Can you think of any other situation, other than being in Reserve, where the unit is neither Swooping nor Gliding, and wouldn't count as being a Jump unit?

That depends, what does 'at the start of its move' mean? A flight mode only lasts until the start of the FMC's next turn. If 'at the start of its move' means the start of its movement phase then no, until the model is dead it will not stop being in one of the two flight modes. If however that statement means before the model itself make a move then any FMC that has not moved since the start of the the turn after it chose its last flight mode would be neither gliding or swooping.

For the record, I believe that statement is meant to be the start of the movement phase, but that's a whole other discussion. The idea that there may not be any other situations where a FMC is neither gliding or swooping is insignificant to the discussion at hand. There is indeed one situation where it is neither gliding or swooping and it is the only situation relevant to this discussion.

Page 49 makes it very clear that when deploying a FMC that has been kept in Reserves the model is not gliding or swooping until after it enters play. Without permission to 'move like' a jump unit before it enters play I don't see how page 47 lets it enter play via Deep Strike.

Look its simple. There is a rule called "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE". That is, you must use your common sense to resolve any issues with rule problems, in a gentlemanly, or ladylike, fashion.

In this instacen the sensible answer is obviously that flying creatures could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). THis is obvious, blantant and common sense, so is "following "the most important rule".

To argue silly and counter intuitive interpretations of rule wording errors is both tedious and not fun.

 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:
Look its simple. There is a rule called "THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE". That is, you must use your common sense to resolve any issues with rule problems, in a gentlemanly, or ladylike, fashion.

In this instacen the sensible answer is obviously that flying creatures could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). THis is obvious, blantant and common sense, so is "following "the most important rule".

To argue silly and counter intuitive interpretations of rule wording errors is both tedious and not fun.

The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.

It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.

To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.

Solution;

Fly off the board during first turn. (Maybe even get a VS in)
Deep Strike back in on second turn.

??

The FMC retains it's movement type when entering ongoing reserves... So at that point it will be 'moving like' for the duration it is in reserves.

I think it's likely the intent is there, but they didn't realize the rules. I mean, there is no 3rd state a FMC can be in. Its moves like Jump when Swooping, it moves like Jump when Gliding, and they are the only rules which describe how a FMC move, there is no case where the FMC does not move like a Jump unit. I mean, it would struggle to come out of reserves at all with no permission to move <at all>.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, entering from reserves is movement, FMC can't move because it is not in either mode at the start of its move. The world crashes down.

Can it not declare which mode before entering? Can you only declair while on the board? It's the only way it can move and enter from reserves any way surly?

OIIIIIIO wrote:The only FMC that I see that has the DS rules is in Deamons codex. If there is another I would like to see the codex and page number

This potentially solve the argument.

 Nem wrote:
Solution;

Fly off the board during first turn. (Maybe even get a VS in)
Deep Strike back in on second turn.

??

The FMC retains it's movement type when entering ongoing reserves... So at that point it will be 'moving like' for the duration it is in reserves.

I think it's likely the intent is there, but they didn't realize the rules. I mean, there is no 3rd state a FMC can be in. Its moves like Jump when Swooping, it moves like Jump when Gliding, and they are the only rules which describe how a FMC move, there is no case where the FMC does not move like a Jump unit. I mean, it would struggle to come out of reserves at all with no permission to move <at all>.

I agree that a swooping flyer in ongoing reserves would have the deep strike special rule. There are a few problems with this idea though...

1) For a unit to arrive via Deep strike it must have started the game in reserves not just be in reserves when you want to deep strike. Although it looks like it would be possible for a model with the deep strike special rule that started the game in reserves, come into the game, then go into ongoing reserves on a later turn and arrive via deep strike the next turn.

2) A FMC that does not start the game in reserves must start the game in glide mode and a FMC in glide mode cannot enter ongoing reserves. It would need permission to change flight modes and be swooping before it can leave combat air space. If 'at the start of its move' means the start of the movement phase then the FMC would not be able to enter ongoing reserves until turn 2. If 'at the start of its move' means the FMC can change flight modes when the player decides to start moving that model then the FMC could start the game in glide, then enter swoop mode and leave combat airspace during its 1st turn. The second interpretation however would mean a FMC that does not move during its 2nd or later turn will neither be swooping or flying until it does move.

3) The FMC would still be able to be shot at before it leaves combat airspace.

 DJGietzen wrote:


The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.

It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.

To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.

Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)


The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?

 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:


Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)


The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?

You realise that you are in a forum that is there to figure out how the rules work? Of course we could just put our models on the table and make pew pew noises and remove casualties as we like while forging a narrative.
If house rules are your thing ... fine ... they are fun and theres another sub forum for debating them. The Proposed Rules Forum.
This forum is about figuring out the rules and has rules itself which are manifested in the tenets. I suggest reading these tenets before posting here. One of them is that the "most important rule" has no place in a discussion here.

 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:
The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?

Yes it's an official rule, but it has no place in a rules discussion.
How can you discuss rules properly when another rule exists that says "ignore the rules, roll a dice!" ?
It's a rule that works as a quick fix when you don't know how a rule should work. Here we're working out the problem properly.

 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:


The most important rule has no place in YMDC. Also discussions of what is sensible but not framed out in the rules have no place here either.

It makes perfect sense to me that the crew of my land raider can open the front hatch long enough for a rocket launcher carried by one of the marines embarked inside to be fired at an enemy unit in front of the land raider. But the land raider, in the rules. has no fire points or special rule that would allow such a sensible action to actually take place in the game. It would also be sensible that a flyer with a hover mode could easily start by flying over the battlefield and dropping down during the game (deep strike). Its obvious, blatant and common sense. Its not allowed becouse flyers don't have deep strike. Neither does a FMC that is not gliding or swooping. The game clearly defines when a FMC can start gliding or swooping and it does not allow for this before the model enters play.

To argue what is sensible instead of what is allowed by the rules is silly.

Its attitudes like that that make the game not fun to play. I can see playing against you would result in endless round-around arguments that make the game drag on and impede the fun (I am a stubborn beep-hole it must be said!)


The most important rule is a valid rule written in the rule book. ITS AN OFFICIAL RULE! I would be happy to discuss all these rules with my opponent before play. The missile launcher is a good call, Id say that my opponent can do it, but it means I get to shoot at him.....as for fliers DS why not allow it?

How I discuses rules on this forum and how I play are two different things. Please read the tenants of this forum, they are stickied at the top and take note of number 7.

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.

I would also say a Monstrous Creature doing so would always count as being in Glide mode as it couldn't move 12"-24" in the movement phase.

I think my initial reaction was largely based on me feeling like it'd be "overpowered" but the more I think about it, it'd actually be somewhat of a detriment to deep strike a flying monstrous creature onto the battlefield anyway, barring someone using weird deployment shenanigans. If you hide it out of LOS on turn 1, it'll get to where it needs to go by turn 2 regardless of movement types you use in the first two turns, whereas if you deep strike it, you'd risk it not being where it needs to go, you'd risk it getting shot to death from not being in swoop mode, and you'd risk it not coming in til turn 4.

 SRSFACE wrote:
After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.

Problem with that is, when it goes into reserve it can't be Swooping or Gliding. The rules are very clear on when you can choose one of those.
Both modes do indeed say they move like Jump, but the model can't be using either at that stage.

The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

 SRSFACE wrote:
After thinking about it and re-reading everything in the book itself, I actually change my position. I'm of the mind now that they can deep strike. If both modes that a flying monstrous creature has to be in (regardless of when it's declared which is which) state it counts as moving like a jump unit, and it says all units which "count as moving like a jump unit" gain all relevant special abilities, AND jump units gain Deep Strike, a flying monstrous creature would also have Deep Strike.

Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?

 SRSFACE wrote:
I would also say a Monstrous Creature doing so would always count as being in Glide mode as it couldn't move 12"-24" in the movement phase.

Although the BRB faq does not tell use all FMC can arrive via deep strike, it does tell us that if one does, it arrives in swoop mode.

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

No they aren't.
This really is misleading and causing a lot of problems.

They are NOT described as moving like JMC.
Gliding allows them to be treaded as moving like JMC, so does Swooping.
Unless they have one of those two chosen, then they do not, and cannot use those rules.
When in reserve for example, they cannot be using either.

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

 DJGietzen wrote:

How I discuses rules on this forum and how I play are two different things. Please read the tenants of this forum, they are stickied at the top and take note of number 7.

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

Ahh, Ok sorry!

 DJGietzen wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

Then what is it ?

Fragile wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
The FMCs are described as moving like jump monstrous creatures creatures and use their rules. That's all that matters.

Not true. A swooping FMC is described as moving like jump units. A gliding FMC is described as moving like jump units. However a FMC that is neither swoopoing ore gliding is not described as moving like a jump unit. Before it enters play a FMC can not be swooping or gliding and THAT is all that matters.

Then what is it ?

It's neither. There is no rule requiring to be in a mode

Ah, I get it now. I think the point is...

A FMC moves like a jump MC. The rule which lets it use special rules from Jump MC does not require it to be in a mode, only that the unit moves as a Jump MC.

Glide Mode: Jump MC
Swooping: Jump MC

Neither of the above: Doesn't exist becuase when a MC is moving, it falls into one of the above, all movement rules are there. Doesn't matter becuase this has nothing to do with movement?


Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?
Or another way: When is a FMC NOT moving like a Jump MC
(hint, it doesn't include this because it doesn't matter)

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

Stormbreed wrote:
The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

The FMC rules cover this. When you arrive from Reserve you choose Swooping or Gliding.

What you can't do is choose one when going into reserve.
So when in reserve it is NOT treated as a Jump unit, so has no access to Deep Strike.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

What are the movement rules for a FMC unit?

Infantry units movement rules are up to 6''.
Jump units movement rules are 6'' or 12''
FMC units movement rules are X; like Jump (except..) or Y; like Jump (except...)


What it can and can't do outside the units movement rules shouldn't really be taken into consideration, the unit moves like a Jump MC anytime it can move, the entirety of the units movement rules say it moves like a Jump MC, and fulfills the requirement of movement is described as Jump, all the unit's movement is described as such.

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit. It can be in either mode (Or none) but the FMC, as a unit, when it moves - Moves like a Jump unit.

 Nem wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

When?
Only when you select Swooping or Gliding is it described like that.
Not at all times.
So if Swooping or Gliding has not been chosen (in Reserve it can't) then it is not described as moving like that.
How can you use the rules for Jump units when the model is currently not described as a Jump unit? You can't.

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit.

The FMC rules are very clear on when you can choose Swooping or Gliding.
There are 3 and only 3 times it can be chosen, and in Reserve is not one of them.
1). When it moves,
2). When it is deployed
3). When it arrives from reserve.

That's it. When in Reserve non of the above 3 has happened, you cannot select Swooping or Gliding, so cannot use those rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

Stormbreed wrote:
The reserve rules state,

as if they had been positioned just off the board
in the previous turn and moved as normal.

Granted we're talking about DS, I'm not sure if DS over rides this rule?

On top of that what does that mean for a FMC that would be coming on outflanking?

The FMC rules cover this. When you arrive from Reserve you choose Swooping or Gliding.

What you can't do is choose one when going into reserve.
So when in reserve it is NOT treated as a Jump unit, so has no access to Deep Strike.

I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
Put it this way, when not swooping or gliding, how would YOU describe how it moves in the entry?

It doesn't require a description of how it moves when not Swooping or Gliding.
It only really happens pre-game and in reserve, where there is no movement.

Ok, but the rules say if it's described as moving like a Jump unit it can use the rules for it.

When?
Only when you select Swooping or Gliding is it described like that.
Not at all times.
So if Swooping or Gliding has not been chosen (in Reserve it can't) then it is not described as moving like that.
How can you use the rules for Jump units when the model is currently not described as a Jump unit? You can't.

For this not to apply, we would have to show somewhere the unit is not moving like a Jump unit.

The FMC rules are very clear on when you can choose Swooping or Gliding.
There are 3 and only 3 times it can be chosen, and in Reserve is not one of them.
1). When it moves,
2). When it is deployed
3). When it arrives from reserve.

That's it. When in Reserve non of the above 3 has happened, you cannot select Swooping or Gliding, so cannot use those rules.

The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The FMC unit page has the movment rules, there are only 2 ways a FMC can move, and both of them are like a Jump unit. That's all the movment rules need to have other movement based rules apply.

It is pretty amazing to see such wiling ignorance that a condition is attached to a FMC moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

If X is doing Y then it moves like Z. If X is NOT doing Y then it does NOT move like Z.

Furthermore the rules are CLEAR when X is allowed to do Y and in this case you cannot do Y when placed into reserves.

This is a nonargument by people either not reading all the rules or by those choosing to nitpick the rules.

 Nem wrote:
The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The problem is at the time you go into reserve you have no rule saying you move like a Jump unit.
Swooping or Gliding is the only time they are described as moving like that, and you can't select either when in reserve.
There is no default mode, and it is not described as moving like Jump at all times.


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Stormbreed wrote:
I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

That's arriving from reserve, the problem is going into Reserve.

"Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

If im not swooping or gliding,

Am I not a FMC unit as described in the BRB?

The FMC Unit rules contain the units movement, which is 100% applied by the rule 'described as'


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 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
The rules say I move like a Jump MC, there is only 2 ways a FMC can move. While I havn't selected them coming in from reserves, I don't have to to use deepsrike, which I already have from the Unit rules saying I move like a Jump MC. There isn't a 3rd mode in regards to movement which the 'described as moving like a jump unit' cares about.

The problem is at the time you go into reserve you have no rule saying you move like a Jump unit.
Swooping or Gliding is the only time they are described as moving like that, and you can't select either when in reserve.
There is no default mode, and it is not described as moving like Jump at all times.


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Stormbreed wrote:
I 100% see what you're saying, but the reserve rules tell us to treat the unit as if it had moved as normal in the previous turn. Is there something that over rides that for when the model deep strikes?

That's arriving from reserve, the problem is going into Reserve.

It's not described as moving becuase there is no 3rd movement mode. All movement rules are on the FMC page. Gliding, Swooping or not, all movement rules say I move like a Jump Unit.

 Nem wrote:
It's not described as moving becuase there is no 3rd movement mode. All movement rules are on the FMC page.

Yes they are.

As I've posted several times, there are3 (and only 3) times in which you can select Swooping or Gliding.
Until that choice is made they are are using neither mode.

Nothing, and I truely mean NOTHING states that they MUST have a mode selected at all times.
When in reserve they cannot have yet chosen a mode. SO cannot use it's rules.

It's trying to force a player to declare if a missile launcher is loaded with Frag or Krak during deployment. It's not a requirement, and you've got no permission to choose at that stage.

Edit: It's also getting annoying that this is repeated over 3 threads. Can we just stick to one and close the others?

Except the rules do not say that FMC move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature without condition. A requirement is in place that must be met before a FMC can move exactly like a JMC. You are arguing to be moving like a JMC when you have not fulfilled the requirement.

For those of you that continue to push some state of being when a FMC is placed in reserve, there is none and that is supported by the fact the GW requires that you declare a mode when it enters play from Reserves. You must declare a mode when you enter play because up until that point you are in neither mode and thus not moving like JMC.

Deal with not having a FMC that deepstrikes.

Ok let me see if I understand the two sides here.

Side A: if a unit is described as moving like jump units, it gets the special rules, and thus can deep strike.

Side B: FMCs only are described to move like jump units when moving so they do not get the special rules.

Here is the question. Is there a qualifier for the "move like jump units" clause?

HJ, it is a basic "If-Then" statement.

Gotcha. It's the "does the ability to re-roll to hit rolls of 1 allow you to reroll blasts?" argument.

The rules on pages 10 and 11 tell us how a model can move. The unit types tell us how a model with that unit type moves differently. Pg 49 tells us how a FMC in either swoop or glide mode moves. A FMC that is not in swoop or glide mode would move like a model can move as described on pages 10 and 11. If pages 10 and 11 did not exist then a FMC not in swoop or glide mode would not be allowed to move. Neither of these are situations where the model can move like a jump unit.

Page 47 allows models that move like jump units to deep strike.
Page 49 tells us a FMC does not move like a jump unit unless it is in one of the two flight modes.
It cannot be in one of the two flight modes before it arrives from reserves.
Before a FMC arrives from reserves it does not get the deep strike rule from page 47.

The potential, no matter how great, that is will be able to move like a jump unit at some time later in the game is immaterial. It only matters if it can move like a jump unit at the moment you prepare your reserves for page 47 to apply.

Based on everything I've read in this thread it's clear an FMC can choose to deep strike... Too much nit picking the rules IMO.

Then you havent read any of the rules Dozer because it is not nitpicking the rules, it is two very clear sentences that set the condition.

I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but that means Riptides can DS too doesn't it?

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

None. Until you choose one and then move it, granting it a plethora of special rules depending on your choice.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

Which requires you to pick while off the board?

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

You argue against me and yet, then you post a FAQ that clearly states what is going on? Okay, so you can DS in both modes. So what's your point? The damn FMC can Deep Strike. End of story.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I think this one is pretty clear. "Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

Jump Units have the Bulky and Deep Strike rules. If you declare that you are bringning in an FMC via Glide Mode, then you can Deep Strike him, or choose not to.

I think what is going on here is the OP doesn't want his opponents to DS FMCs and is using the tried and true "RAW is fuzzy"

But it's not. It just takes some extra reading.

"Treat Gliding FMCs as if they were jump units"...

When putting a FMC into reserves is it Gliding?

No? then it does not have access to the DS rule.

Besides, who cares if someone DS'ed their FMC, you get a whole turn of free shooting at it, and it's in glide mode... so no skyfire needed!

you might want to retract that...

BRB FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature that arrives via DeepStrike count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes.

So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

You follow the damn rules on page 49 that tells you to declare which mode you are in when it enters play.

Fragile wrote:So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

BRB Pg49 under Deployment wrote:If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

You decide as soon as it enters play, after it has been deployed.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
So then when a FMC moves on to the board from reserves, what mode is it in ?

Since you pick before moving the model, you pick...

Which requires you to pick while off the board?

BRB wrote: If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

Now, you can debate if entering play is when it arrives from reserves or when it moves onto the board (there's no real difference, but it has the potential to matter) but you have explicit permission to choose when it comes into play and then physically move the model on to the board.

If it follows all special rules then yes.

darkcloak wrote:
You argue against me and yet, then you post a FAQ that clearly states what is going on? Okay, so you can DS in both modes. So what's your point? The damn FMC can Deep Strike. End of story.

No, the FAQ explains what mode a FMC that can deep must arrive in. It however does nothing to tell us IF a FMC can deep strike.

Yes it does... it has everything associated with a jump pack or wings. Stop making it harder than it is.

It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

A deep strike is obviously a move.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

But you can DECLARE how you INTEND to move while in reserve. When does is the declaration realised? When the model is place on the board? When it's base touches the board? When you touch the model to pick it up to put it on the board? Are you considered to be no longer in reserves when you declare the intention to move, or when you put the actual model on the board?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A deep strike is obviously a move.

No, its not. Its a form a deployment. A model that has deployed this way counts as if it had moved. This sounds like a distinction with out a difference but the difference here would be that you do not declare a flight mode before deploying the unit.



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 Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
It has all of those rules while moving ... this is very explicit. You need to be able to move to have said rules. You can only move while it is considered on the table, not while in reserves. You can not move while in reserves. While you are in reserves you do not have JI rules, therefore are ineligible to Deep Strike.

But you can DECLARE how you INTEND to move while in reserve. When does is the declaration realised? When the model is place on the board? When it's base touches the board? When you touch the model to pick it up to put it on the board? Are you considered to be no longer in reserves when you declare the intention to move, or when you put the actual model on the board?

No, you can only declare a flight mode at the start of a unit's move, or when it enters play from reserves. In order for a unit in reserves to deep strike the unit must have the deep strike special rule and the player must declare that the model will do so when he/she prepares their reserves. While preparing your reserves the model is neither starting its move nor is it entering play. At this moment it does not have the deep strike special rule

 DJGietzen wrote:
Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?

Where is the permission for it to NOT be in swooping or gliding mode? At the beginning of the movement phase is simply when you declare which is being used for that game turn.

The lack of rules regulating what mode it's in pre-deployment state are absent, either way.

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. But. In every way it's possible for a flying MC to move, it's described as moving "like a jump" unit, which would then confer Deep Strike. I'm of the mind if it'd ever have the special rule due to this application of the rule, it's a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times unless specifically stated otherwise. (Off the top of my head, Batman's.... er, Konrad Curze's special ability where he gains Hit and Run for any turn in which he assaults.)

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. Personally, I'm of the mind the BRB has a lot of rules that weren't totally thought out. Deep Striking in general has at least one glaring typo I'm aware of, and the stipulation a unit must "start the game" in Deep Strike reserve I think was written that way because at the time the rule was thought about when writing the edition, I doubt they considered the implications of a unit possibly going into Ongoing Reserves that would then want to deep strike back in on their turn, because I don't think that was a possible thing in the previous editions.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Although the BRB faq does not tell use all FMC can arrive via deep strike, it does tell us that if one does, it arrives in swoop mode.

Ah, you're right! I somehow missed that. Thanks.

Deployment and movement are coupled - you cannot have one without the other. Units do not magically materialize on the table top.

In the previous Tyranid Codex wings made a Monstrous Creature move like a Jump Monstrous Creature. Now wings make a Monstrous Creature a Flying Monstrous Creature. A flying Monsters creature only moves like a Jump Monstrous creature if it is gliding or swooping. In the previous codex a monstrous creature with wings moved like a jump monstrous creature before it entered play and therefore could deep strike. In the new codex it is impossible for a monstrous creature with wings to move like a jump monstrous creature before it enters play.


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 Dozer Blades wrote:
Deployment and movement are coupled - you cannot have one without the other. Units do not magically materialize on the table top.

If that were true no models would be able to move in the 1st turn because models may not move more then once and they already deployed that turn.

FMC is a new category. Swooping is a new form of movement... don't make such a big deal about it.

If that were true no models would be able to move in the 1st turn because models may not move more then once and they already deployed that turn.

Run, assault, break... these are all movement. you are much too literal in your application.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Why do you think that a flying monstrous creature has to be in one of two modes? Where is the permision for it to be in one of those two modes before the start of its move and before it enters play?

Where is the permission for it to NOT be in swooping or gliding mode? At the beginning of the movement phase is simply when you declare which is being used for that game turn.

It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The lack of rules regulating what mode it's in pre-deployment state are absent, either way.

There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. But. In every way it's possible for a flying MC to move, it's described as moving "like a jump" unit, which would then confer Deep Strike. I'm of the mind if it'd ever have the special rule due to this application of the rule, it's a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times unless specifically stated otherwise. (Off the top of my head, Batman's.... er, Konrad Curze's special ability where he gains Hit and Run for any turn in which he assaults.)

Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

 SRSFACE wrote:
There are no rules stating which of the two modes it's in while in reserves, true. Personally, I'm of the mind the BRB has a lot of rules that weren't totally thought out. Deep Striking in general has at least one glaring typo I'm aware of, and the stipulation a unit must "start the game" in Deep Strike reserve I think was written that way because at the time the rule was thought about when writing the edition, I doubt they considered the implications of a unit possibly going into Ongoing Reserves that would then want to deep strike back in on their turn, because I don't think that was a possible thing in the previous editions.

In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

It seems that flying monstrous creatures somersault when they are not gliding or swooping. In fact, they probably moonwalk. They definitely don't use their wings. RAW states that you must declare how you are moving before moving or entering play etc..If you don't declare...then your FMC somersaults that turn and cannot deep strike when coming in from reserve. You see, a FMC that can also DEEP STRIKE will completely break the game and throw the perfectly balanced world of 40k rules writing out the window. The rules wizards at GW intentionally wrote it this way to prevent FMCs from deep striking cause it would ruin the perfect balance of the game. They also wrote it intentionally vague so that power gamers can find little loop holes when they dissect every single sentence. FMCs can deep strike. The BRB is not perfect.
Why would they not be able to? Because they are in a stasis field until they enter play. FMCs are wheeled up to the line of scrimmage and they are only allowed to use their wings after they step over the line. A better question is why would the writers intend for FMCs to not be able to deep strike? Arbitrary writing? Certainly balancing is not a concern. If I were to play against someone who breaks down the rules like this and interprets it to mean whatever best suits him and his army rather than what is obviously reasonable, then I would find a different opponent. RAW =???? RAI = FMCs can deep strike.

So let me get this straight. When coming in from reserves a FMC must choose a flight mode before they can choose a flight mode? How do they move on from reserves then?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

But they don't have that type of movement when you prepare your reserves. Its really just that simple.

You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
It seems that flying monstrous creatures somersault when they are not gliding or swooping. In fact, they probably moonwalk. They definitely don't use their wings.

Not that it will ever come up in the course of actual play, but a FMC that is neither gliding or swooping fallows the rules for movement expressed on paged 10-11 of the BRB.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
RAW states that you must declare how you are moving before moving or entering play etc..If you don't declare...then your FMC somersaults that turn and cannot deep strike when coming in from reserve.

No, it actually does not tell you to declare a flight mode before entering play.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
You see, a FMC that can also DEEP STRIKE will completely break the game and throw the perfectly balanced world of 40k rules writing out the window. The rules wizards at GW intentionally wrote it this way to prevent FMCs from deep striking cause it would ruin the perfect balance of the game.

Except for FMCs that have the deep strike rule. Those do exist.




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 Dozer Blades wrote:
You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

Explain how the rules allow for a flying monstrous creature to either a) move like a jump unit while not swooping or gliding? or b) be swooping or gliding before it enters play.

DJGietzen wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Having the particular type of movement is why they can deep strike. It is literally just that simple.

But they don't have that type of movement when you prepare your reserves. Its really just that simple.

Dozer Blades wrote:You have made up that construct. As you can see not many here agree with your PoV.

He didn't make that up, it's true. If the BRB says you can do it you can do it, BUT ONLY IF IT SAYS YOU CAN. It says nowhere about chosing a mode before hand. Under deployment inn the BRB there is also this

....If a Flying Monsterous Creature is kept as Reserves than as soon as it enters play, you declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

(Emphasis mine).

I think we found the answer; RAW = no, because you are neither swooping or gliding while deploying or in reserves which would confer the "moves like jump"/"confers jump" special rules. Deep strike from ongoing reserves appears legit, though. RAI = ??? My last post paints me to be a complete hypocrite as I bash those who interpret rules to their liking then proceed to do so to my own extreme liking including imagery. My bad, I'm flopping on this one. RAW = clearly they cannot. Whether or not this was the intention does not matter.

Would you actually try to enforce that in a real game ?

Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

 Happyjew wrote:
Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

Only while swooping or gliding, not while moving. You can be swooping or gliding and not be moving. And as far as I can tell it is not allowed for the same reason that re-rolls are not allowed. It gives conditional permission and that condition is not being satisfied.

 Happyjew wrote:
Like I said earlier. This is the "does re-rolls of 1 allow a model to re-roll blast weapons?" all over again. One side says yes as the requirements are met (the model is described to move like jump units). The other says no, because the movement is conditional (they only move like jump units when moving).

As near as I can tell, it is allowed, for the same reason that re-rolls are allowed. It gives generic permission.

This isn't quite accurate.
The FMC rules are very, very, clear on when a model counts as moving like a Jump unit. And it is only whe Swooping or Gliding. No other time.
It is also very clear on when you can choose one of these 2 modes.
At no point during reserves can you choose them.

It's a case of one side saying the requirements are met (to be treated as moving like JMC).
And another that says it hasn't (during going into reserve it is not treated as moving like a JMC)

Now the side against has rules support.
Not one person on the "yes" side can show rules support of either:
A). The FMC is considered to move like a JMC unconditionally at all times, or
B). That Swooping/Gliding can be selected when a model goes into reserve.

A is easily proven wrong. Only when Swooping or Gliding is it ever described as moving like a JMC.
B also, the times a mode can be chosen are clearly defined and not one includes reserves.

It's not even a conditional argument.
One side is quite literally using the Deep Strike rule for a unit that is NOT described as moving like a jump unit.

One declares deepstrike in deployment. One declares swoop or glide in the movement phase where his model comes on.

I'd say no.

Would you actually try to enforce that in a real game ?

I would try to agree about that beforehand if possible. If it comes up, and is of any importance, I would not enforce it, because I want my opponent to have fun, and I don't want to win a game by using a rule my opponent didn't know about in my favour. I try to maintain a chivalric attitude to gaming.

But this is still important, because I do prepare for someone enforcing that on me, because I don't like surprises on that topic. And I wouldn't be the "Awww thats unfair!"-complaining-guy.

 DJGietzen wrote:
It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play. A flying monstrous creature is a different type of model than just a monstrous creature, which is why it has a whole page dedicated to it. It doesn't say anywhere "treat it like such" pre-deployment, either way, but it does have rules that govern it- once it's in play. Considering the absense of rules for how to govern the unit when not in play, I would argue you should treat it as always under the rules of what it's like when currently in play.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

See my previous argument this post. A model that does not have rules for a point in the game cannot be governed.

 DJGietzen wrote:
In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

There's a poll at the top of the page which suggests to me it's a HWYPI discussion, not a rules are written discussion.

 SRSFACE wrote:
But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play.

During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak?

This state is a fiction of imagination, as is the requirement that a model must be in one of those states.

Nothing, seriously nothing, requires the model to be Swooping or Gliding at every given time.
There's no mystical undefined state.

You simply haven't yet chosen Swooping or Gliding.
The rule absolutly supports you not yet making this choice.

So, during deployment: Frag or Krak?

If an FMC is in swoop mode it must move at least 18".

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
It actually changes flight modes at the begging of its move and while the start of its move MIGHT mean the start of the movement phase we actually have a more specific set of rules that deal with when we can choose a flight mode in relation to the deployment of the unit. Very clearly those rules don't let us choose a flight mode until the model has entered play.

But then it exists in a state that currently has no rules governing how it must play. A flying monstrous creature is a different type of model than just a monstrous creature, which is why it has a whole page dedicated to it. It doesn't say anywhere "treat it like such" pre-deployment, either way, but it does have rules that govern it- once it's in play. Considering the absense of rules for how to govern the unit when not in play, I would argue you should treat it as always under the rules of what it's like when currently in play.

The BRB explains the state all models will be in before additional rules modify that state. In the absence of additional rules the unit would exist in the same state every model exists in before addition rules change this state.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its a permissive rule set. The lack of permission to choose a mode before it enters play or rules staying which of the two modes its in while in reserves means its in neither mode while in reserves. As you can see its not a special rule it obtains for all intents and purposes at all times. There is at least one very specific time it does not have this rule and its this time that is the crux of the argument.

See my previous argument this post. A model that does not have rules for a point in the game cannot be governed.

This is not the 1st time I've mentioned this. There are rules. PLease read pages 10 and 11 of your rulebook. Those pages explain how a model that is not in swoop or glide mode is allowed to move.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
In a discussion about the rules as intended this would be a valid point. I believe this argument is about the rules as written.

There's a poll at the top of the page which suggests to me it's a HWYPI discussion, not a rules are written discussion.

Thats Jim's fault. The poll does not express if the question is what you think the RAW says, what you think the RAI should be, or how you would play it. Its also why the results of the poll cannot accurately reflect the opinion of this forum. I may have anwsered No for RAW, but Yes for HIPWI. However the arguments as explained in Jim's initial post about the poll are RAW arguments. In either case I've explained I am providing a RAW argument, and you have chosen to debate that argument.

 grendel083 wrote:
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak?

This state is a fiction of imagination, as is the requirement that a model must be in one of those states.

Nothing, seriously nothing, requires the model to be Swooping or Gliding at every given time.
There's no mystical undefined state.

You simply haven't yet chosen Swooping or Gliding.
The rule absolutly supports you not yet making this choice.

So, during deployment: Frag or Krak?

As long as we're arguing rules that have nothing at all to do with how to work models deployed on the table, let's talk tax laws!

If you're going to make arguments, can you at least be respectful and not pull up things that have no basis with the topic? While I disagree with DJGietzen's reasoning behind that side of the argument, he's laid them out very plainly and without being rude about it. I understand the other side of the argument, I just have the opinion a model that "moves like a jump unit" at any point especially when both states it'll always be in during actual gameplay count thusly gives it all applicable special rules.

The BRB doesn't properly explain how to work Flying Monstrous Creatures if they are not gliding or swooping, hence the reason this is 6 pages long now. Arguing RAW is pointless because the issue is the rules that would clearly define what to do in this case are absent in the first place.

It does have to do with the topic. IMHO, it shows another supposed binary choice that must be fulfilled at all times.

In no way does the brb state a FMC must be in one mode or the other, that it doesn't state what another mode might be or that there is a limited number of states is enough to ruin this binary fantasy in RAW terms at least.

Now as to the deployment is movement... sure fine deployment is movement or at least counts as it. Where is the permission to choose the flight mode prior to deployment? The rules shown so far indicate clearly this choice only arrives at the moment of deployment.

As for the stuff about coming on the edge as if it had moved up to it last turn.... that's really a stretch. A description of how to move models onto the board is not a declaration of what it was doing prior to deployment.

Stating that the rules are absent is like pissing in the corner and saying the toilet should have been there. It's just your opinion and someone decided differently, specifically GW. We can't know what the intended rules were as we're not the design team, we only have the rules as printed. That's it.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The BRB doesn't properly explain how to work Flying Monstrous Creatures if they are not gliding or swooping, hence the reason this is 6 pages long now. Arguing RAW is pointless because the issue is the rules that would clearly define what to do in this case are absent in the first place.

The argument was valid and to the point.
Not only is a choice of missile not needed until it actually shoots, you can't even make the choice until that time. Before it is used, the missile choice simply hasn't been made. There's no strange undefined stage that it cannot exist at. See the similarity?

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.
The absence of a definition isn't game breaking.

Same with a FMC. It's Movment method isn't needed, nor can it be chosen until it actually needs one.
The only reason you would need to know how it moves when in reserve, is to try and take advantage of a rule attached to this mode.

The rules could easily have been written to allow a FMC to move as a JMC by default. Why didn't they? Would have been much easier. Perhaps to stop exactly this. Who knows?
The RaW in this case works perfectly fine.

When in reserve Swoop or Glide cannot be chosen. They are not at this stage described as JMC, so cannot Deepstrike.

The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I'm still unsure on RAW, I'm split between one and the other. On the poll I put maybe, so I'm happy to stick with that.

With the poll results though I would expect it. HIWIP yes, though practically I don't see many situations I'd want to DS my FMC's, even when wings gave DS I didn't so can't see it now.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I can count the true statements in this post without using any fingers or toes.....

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
The truth of the matter is that people are trying to create a loophole within the rules as written to make it possible to deep strike whereas the RAW is explicit in prohibiting it.

The argument has been exactly that as they are jot even arguing against the rules as written, but this notion that FMC are in some mode eligible for the deep strike rules when it is placed in Reserves. Their proof? Well the rulebook doesn't explicitly say what mode they are in so they assume it kust be gliding or swooping. Guess what argument that is?

"If it doesnt say I can't, I can."

Sorry, not how this ruleset is played. Thread has run its course with one side consistently showing the rules as written and the other creating a very weak attempt at a loophole.

I can count the true statements in this post without using any fingers or toes.....

You mean all of it? All true?
I agree

A FMC cannot be Swooping or Gliding in reserve. The rules are clear on that.
So how can it be treated am moving like a Jump unit? It can't.
So how can it use the Jump units Deep a Strike rule? It can't.
And no one will put forward any rule saying otherwise.

Is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit? No. Only when Swooping or Gliding. No other time.

Grendel, I want trying to misrepresent either argument. As I stated, since the only requirement is to be described as moving like jump units, then, since FMCs are described as moving like jump units (conditionally) it works. Which is why, some read that preferred enemy grants blast re-rolls. Of course, by the logic presented in the other thread it also means that every BA librarian could deep strike due to the potential of having Wings of Sanguinius.

BA would have to first successfully cast the spell so it doesn't hold true for them.

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, I want trying to misrepresent either argument. As I stated, since the only requirement is to be described as moving like jump units, then, since FMCs are described as moving like jump units (conditionally) it works. Which is why, some read that preferred enemy grants blast re-rolls. Of course, by the logic presented in the other thread it also means that every BA librarian could deep strike due to the potential of having Wings of Sanguinius.

But it doesn't work. How can it? It's not even slightly a conditional statement like blasts and re-rolls.

Orks can sometimes be Fleet (due to a Waaagh!). You're saying they can be Fleet at all times. Using a rule just because sometime in the future they might get it.

It's not a conditional allowance. You're trying to use a rule that at that point it simply does not have.
You can't use a Jump unit rule when the model is NOT a jump unit.

It does not say you can DeepStrike if you have the potential to sometimes be a Jump unit, maybe.

It's a jump unit only at very set times. Not all the time. And not when in reserve.
What allows you to use Deepstrike, when you don't have the jump rules?

I agree with HJ... Except for the BA reference. It's makes the most sense to me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I agree with HJ... Except for the BA reference. It's makes the most sense to me.

That you can use a Special rule without having it?

I can see the conditional argument with Blast and re-rolls, but where does something like that exist in Deep Strike?
Does Deep Strike say you can use it if you sometimes have the rule maybe in the future? No it doesn't. The rule says you must have it, and be in reserve. And when in reserve a FMC does not have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets lay it out:
I'm using the Digi-rulebook, so can't give page numbers, so please use the index to check yourselves.

Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve.

No ifs buts or maybes. The unit MUST have the Deep Strike rule and be in reserve.

FMC - Flight modes wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.

Can, not must. Nothing requires that they must at all times exist with a chosen flight mode. They have no mode by default.
They do not move as Jump units by default.
So without a flight mode they are NOT a jump unit. And have no access to the Deep Strike special rule.

Now when can they select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit and does NOT have the Deep Strike special rule.
As per the Deep Strike requirements (recap: must have the rule and be in reserve) it cannot make use of Deep Strike.

So again I ask:
How can a model that does not have the Deep Strike special rule, use the Deep Strike special rule?

"Unlike most other unit type categories, "jump" is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category- commonly infantry, monstrous creatures (etc).
Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

A flying monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, the fmc ones and those for jump units.

Permission granted to place in reserve and deep strike (which is undeniably a move), arriving in the only mode the faq allows them to.

 fuusa wrote:
Permission granted to place in reserve and deep strike (which is undeniably a move), arriving in the only mode the faq allows them to.

Going into reserve is not a move.
Arriving from reserve is.

You need to have the Deep Strike rule when you go INTO reserve.
And at that time the model most certain does not have it.
As it is not described as moving like a Jump unit.

Can you prove that placing a model into reserve is movement? (into, not arriving from)
Either way "movment" is not what is required to let you choose a flight mode.
Here I'll recap the 3 times you can choose:
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

Is simply "movement" listed? No it isn't.
Not that going into reserve is movement anyway.

Nothing in your post actually responds to my post.

If you can disprove this, then you'll have a point.

"Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

 fuusa wrote:
Nothing in your post actually responds to my post.

If you can disprove this, then you'll have a point.

"Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules and those of their base type."

What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit.

The rule you have quoted is for Jump units, why should it apply to a model that is not Jump?

That's the point.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it descibed as moving like a Jump unit. You agree to that?
When it's neither Swooping nor Gliding it is not a jump unit.
What I've demonstrated is that during reserve it is not Swooping or Gliding. It is not a Jump unit.

So what part of the rule (which it does not at that time have) would you like me to disprove? Because I've proved it doesn't even have the rule.

Other than Swooping or Gliding, is the FMC described as moving like a jump unit?

 grendel083 wrote:
What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit..

No you haven't.
A jump monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, one of those sets of rules includes permission to deep strike.
It does not only use two sets of rules if it moves.

 fuusa wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
What would you like me to disprove?
I have pointed out that during reserve the model is not a Jump Unit..

No you haven't.
A jump monstrous creature uses two sets of rules, one of those sets of rules includes permission to deep strike.
It does not only use two sets of rules if it moves.

But it's not a Jump Monstrous Creature.
That's the point.

When not Swooping or Gliding, is a Flying Monstrous Creature described as moving like a Jump unit?
Go read the section and return with a quote please.

FMC are not flyers, they can only shoot 2 weapons 360 degree arc of fire, and can only go a max of 36 inches. They have the deep strike rules per FAQ and their codex's. Flyers and FMC are referred as separate types of units so when they removed the deep strike rules from flyers, not form monstrous creatures.

When they enter from deep strike, they choose which movement they are doing, gliding or swooping.

Lungpickle wrote:
They have the deep strike rules per FAQ and their codex's.

There is no such FAQ.
Chaos Daemon FMC have Deep Strike listed. They can absolutley Deep Strike.
There is an FAQ refering to a FMC that can Deep Strike (eg: The Daemon just mentioned), but no FAQ grants Deep Strike to all FMCs.

The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

Indicates? So it isn't RAW then.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

It has already been proven and there is no need for endlessly repeating it. You are simply being a bully now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FAQ clearly indicates an FMC can deep strike, stop being so obtuse.

Prove it.
Becasue it doesn't.

Would there even be a debate here if it did?

It has already been proven and there is no need for endlessly repeating it. You are simply being a bully now.

Excuse me? I'd like an apology for that statement please.

I would not have asked if it has been proven. And there would not be a debate if it had.

Here's your FAQ:

Q: Does a Flying Monstrous Creature
that arrives via Deep Strike
count as arriving in Swoop mode? (p49)
A: Yes

You'll note that it doesn't say what you claimed.
There exists FMC with the Deep Strike USR (Daemons) so it's a relevent FAQ for them. It grants Deep Strike to no one.
I eagerly await your appology.

If a FMC has the deepstrike USR listed then it may deepstrike.

if a FMC does not have the deepstrike USR listed it may not deepstrike.

A FMC may count as something when moving certain ways, however before the battle has begun [ie deployment] there has been 0 movement phases so the FMC doesnt count as anything from its movement as it has had 0 movement.

Saying a FMC can count as having had a movement phase to claim it is in a certain movement mode which is declared at the start of the movement phase [which has not happened yet] is the same as saying any model may use any ability that requires at the start of the movement phase, before the game has begun. Which is incorrect.

a FMC may not deepstrike unless it has deepstrike specifically listed as one of its USRs

We are also told that FMC are treated like a jump unit if they have wings. Do assault Marines have deep strike listed as a USR under their entry ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
We are also told that FMC are treated like a jump unit if they have wings.

No we are not.

Only when Swooping or Gliding is it treated as moving like a Jump Unit.
And it's not Swooping or Gliding when it goes into Reserve.

Do assault Marines have deep strike listed as a USR under their entry ?

No, but they are a Jump Unit at all times (assuming they keep their jump packs). They're are a Jump Unit when they go into Reserve. A FMC is not.

The FMC is treated exactly the same.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The FMC is treated exactly the same.

Is there anyway you could support this please? With rules?

Becasue the rules do not agree with you.
As has been pointed out over and over, a FMC is ONLY described as a Jump Unit when it Swoops or Glides.
When in Reserve it cannot select a flight mode. So it isn't a Jump unit.

Can you or anyone else find a rule saying that a FMC is described as a Jump unit when NOT swooping or Gliding.

It doesn't matter what I say, you will deny it with your fallacious discussion of this subject. Yes, no, yes, no for several pages is a waste of time.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It doesn't matter what I say, you will deny it with your fallacious discussion of this subject. Yes, no, yes, no for several pages is a waste of time.

Of course it matters.
But so far you have refused to quote a single rule to back up any of your statements.

I've demonstrated (with rules) that during reserve they are not Jump Units.
You claim they are but either cannot or will not supply evidence.
Neither will anyone else on this question.

Back up the claim. I'll read it, if correct I'll admit it. If it isn't I'll point out why. It's how a debate works.
Please stop posting "You're wrong but I wont prove why".

Don't tell me what to do. That's very silly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Don't tell me what to do. That's very silly.

I'm politley asking you to back up your claim.

This is also one of the tenants of this forum. A rule that you agreed to when you signed up.

Do you have anything productive to add to this rules debate?

I am putting you on Ignore now.

Grendel, I only have internet via my phone right now. I'll pm you tomorrow night and try to explain my view a little bit better. Just out of curiosity though, hwypi?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I am putting you on Ignore now.

Please do.

Now hopefully someone that actually wishes to contribute to this debate (rather than just waste everyone's time) could answer this simple question:

When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
Answer to include a relevent quote please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Grendel, I only have internet via my phone right now. I'll pm you tomorrow night and try to explain my view a little bit better.

Please do, look forward to hearing it.

Just out of curiosity though, hwypi?

I would certainly point out to my opponent why the FMC cannot DeepStrike. If they don't have the same conclusion then I would let them play it as they want, but then would continue the debate over a beer afterwards.

Movement is not Deployment.

Deepstrike is a form of Deployment.

FMCs move like Jump Infantry. FMCs do not deploy like Jump Infantry.

Therefore, FMCs do not Deepstrike according to the rule book.

Couldn't be more clear.

FMCs can deploy like JI.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
stop being so obtuse.

That's a rather acute observation, and you may very well be right , but please do not be a square and show a degree of consideration. Now then, enough of this tangent .


I tried to figure out how to squeeze radians, sine and cosine in there, but got nothing.

Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
FMCs can deploy like JI.

Citation required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

I know, I really should have given up replying.
Just one rule quote was all I wanted. Clearly I was asking for too much, and shouldn't have bothered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
I tried to figure out how to squeeze radians, sine and cosine in there, but got nothing.

'COS you went round in circles instead, try and be more sharp

 grendel083 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
FMCs can deploy like JI.

Citation required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Before he put you on ignore Grend, I was going to tell you not to bother as he isnt following the rules of the forum. One line trolling sentences without any rules basis just serve to annoy while both you and I cite the same rules and pages.

I know, I really should have given up replying.
Just one rule quote was all I wanted. Clearly I was asking for too much, and shouldn't have bothered.

Well as Inmentioned it earlier, their argument hinges on creating an unsupported mode not based on the rules, but on what they either want it tobe or think what it should be. I get their argument, but just know it isnt supported and in fact refuted by the rules.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Well as Inmentioned it earlier, their argument hinges on creating an unsupported mode not based on the rules, but on what they either want it tobe or think what it should be. I get their argument, but just know it isnt supported and in fact refuted by the rules.

Agreed. Hence the simple question I keep asking, but as yet no one will answer:

 grendel083 wrote:
When not Swooping or Gliding, is a FMC described as moving like a Jump unit.
Answer to include a relevent quote please.

BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general. How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units. However, as I said earlier, I don't do this anyway, I like to have my FMCs on the board where they can be useful. And however my opponent plays is up to him (or her).

 Happyjew wrote:
BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general.

Problem is the Deep Strike rule is alot more solid than the Blast and Re-rolls rule.
It very clearly says the model must have the rule. Not potentially have the rule, must.
And when they go into reserve, they're not treated as being Jump units, because you have not selected a flight mode.

How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units.

They ONLY move like Jump units when Swooping or Gliding. They don't move like them by default. That's part of the problem, when they go into reserve they are not treated as Jump units, so can't use the rule for a type they are not.

In summary:
They only move like JMC when a flight mode has been selected.
When you can select a flight mode is very clearly laid out. It does not include when going into reserve.
So when in Reserve they are not a JMC, so cannot use JMC rules.

Jump infantry can deploy on the table and so can FMC. I think that is pretty obvious.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Jump infantry can deploy on the table and so can FMC. I think that is pretty obvious.

Bad argument is bad. Except for Flyers, any unit can deploy on the table.

 Happyjew wrote:
BR, my argument is the same argument put forth as to why a model that can re-roll to hit rolls of 1, can re-roll blast scatter. I see the permission as general. How do FMCs move? Like jump units. Therefore, they have the same special rules add jump units. However, as I said earlier, I don't do this anyway, I like to have my FMCs on the board where they can be useful. And however my opponent plays is up to him (or her).

I would counter that if that was the case then why would GW put not one, but two conditional statements linked specifically to swooping/gliding and moving as a jump monstrous creature. I would further question why GW then puts tue requirement to declare which mode after arriving from Reserves as opposed to when being placed in Reserves.

Now we all know that GW tends to mess up rule writing, but in this instance we would say that GW mistakenly included conditional clauses, further backed by the mechanic of declaring mode of flight after entering play from Reserves or that FMC were written to not be able to Deep Striek unless they already have the USR as in the case of Daemons.

In this case I will take the rules as written instead of making the unfounded assumption that FMC are always JMC and that GW messed up the rules so much.

Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

With Stronghold Assault you can even Deploy a flyer at the start of the game on the table.

I knew that, but not everyone plays with expansions.

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

What about drop pods ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Correction, any unit type except flyers, can deploy on the table

What about drop pods ?

What unit type is a Drop Pod?

Oh yeah he can't hear me
See what happens when you feed him?

Drop pod are an exception, however, their unit type {vehicle (open-topped, transport)} can still start deployed. Which is why I corrected myself and changed "unit" to "unit type".

 grendel083 wrote:

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.

Then why does this thread even exist?

The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

As a side note, can you all stop using suprelatives? Any "absolute" statement in this thread is pretty silly. The use of "clearly states" when 7 pages proves the rules do not clearly state anything, and it is in fact murky as hell, is a statement made by people who believe they have the God given right to insight, and everyone who disagrees with them is a plebian dumb dumb stupid head.

Several people have flip-flopped their positions in the course of this thread, so seriously, saying anything RAWR IS THE WAY IT IS SMASH GRR DRRR is exceptionally rude, and if you don't realize you're coming across that way, re-examine your language. A bunch of people's Smugness levels have reached San Francisco critical levels so I'm bowing out now anyway.

The only thing that's clear by now is you should definitely discuss it before any friendly play, or discuss it with a Tournament Organizer beforehand.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

I believe it has some unique rules. And those rules can only be used at a certain time.
And that time does not include reserve.

So no, I do not believe the conditions have been met to allow it to Deep Strike.
Mainly being at that time it isn't a JMC so doesn't have the Deep Strike rule.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

The rules are absent, because they're not needed.

Then why does this thread even exist?

The absence of rules is the entire argument. You either believe the conditions aren't satisfied, or you believe they are.

As a side note, can you all stop using suprelatives? Any "absolute" statement in this thread is pretty silly. The use of "clearly states" when 7 pages proves the rules do not clearly state anything, and it is in fact murky as hell, is a statement made by people who believe they have the God given right to insight, and everyone who disagrees with them is a plebian dumb dumb stupid head.

Several people have flip-flopped their positions in the course of this thread, so seriously, saying anything RAWR IS THE WAY IT IS SMASH GRR DRRR is exceptionally rude, and if you don't realize you're coming across that way, re-examine your language. A bunch of people's Smugness levels have reached San Francisco critical levels so I'm bowing out now anyway.

The only thing that's clear by now is you should definitely discuss it before any friendly play, or discuss it with a Tournament Organizer beforehand.

Because the rules do clearly state,

"If a FMC is Gliding, it moves exactly like a JMC."

and

"If a FMC is Swooping, it moves exactly like a JMC."

and

"If a FMC is kept in Reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode."

and

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserve."

and

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike reserve)."

No one is making absolute statements other then what is absolutely stated in the rules. If all you have is attacking the methodology of the debate, then you obviously cannot address the debate at hand so don't even bother posting in the thread.

 grendel083 wrote:
[They ONLY move like Jump units when Swooping or Gliding. They don't move like them by default. That's part of the problem, when they go into reserve they are not treated as Jump units, so can't use the rule for a type they are not.

Doesn't any jump unit only move like a jump unit when they move?
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit

From the rules for unit type "Jump"
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

From the rules for FMC
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature,"

Seems like an open and shut to me.
RAW they can Deep Strike.

Having to declare their movement status on entry makes no difference as in either mode they are Jump MC.
You are just nominating which, not going from nothing to one or the other.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Doesn't any jump unit only move like a jump unit when they move?

It isn't a Jump Unit.

Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit

Yes it can. There are 3 set times when you can choose a Flight mode. If you havn't chosen one, you aren't using one. No rule ever states it must at all times have one chosen. The rules don't support or enforce that.

From the rules for unit type "Jump"
"Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."

From the rules for FMC
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature."
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature,"

That's nice. Now quote the rules where you choose a Flight mode.
You'll note when looking for them that you can't select one when it goes into reserve, which is when the Deep Strike rule is needed.
No flight mode, no treaded as a Jump unit, no Deep Strike.

Seem like an open and shut to me.

You're correct.

RAW they can Deep Strike.

No they can't.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

 DJGietzen wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

The rules make no mention of declared modes, the only requirement is to be described as "moving like", which it is regardless of the mode it is in.
Given that it cannot move in any mode other than the two which are described as moving like, there is never a situation where the FMC is not described as moving like.

If there was a 3rd mode or 1 of the modes was not described as moving like then there might be some concern but there isn't .

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

No rule says it is.
Why must it be one or the other?
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak? It MUST be one or the other at all times, right?

Swooping or Gliding. Two rules, with instructions on when they can be selected. If neither are selected then neither apply.
The FMC lays out 3 specific times you can choose a flight mode. Non are during reserve.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

No rule says it is.
Why must it be one or the other?
During deployment is a missile launcher loaded with Frag or Krak? It MUST be one or the other at all times, right?

Swooping or Gliding. Two rules, with instructions on when they can be selected. If neither are selected then neither apply.
The FMC lays out 3 specific times you can choose a flight mode. Non are during reserve.

None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

See my edits to the previous post.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

Can you prove that a flight mode must be chosen at all times?

The FMC rules give 3 times when it can be chosen. You're claiming a fourth time that makes the three listed redundant as the choice must exisit at all times.

Can you quote this please?

There is no 3rd mode. There is however a time when a flight mode has not been chosen.

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
None of those concepts are present in the 6th Edition Rulebook that I have found.

Can you prove that a flight mode must be chosen at all times?

The FMC rules give 3 times when it can be chosen. You're claiming a fourth time that makes the three listed redundant as the choice must exisit at all times.

Can you quote this please?

There is no 3rd mode. There is however a time when a flight mode has not been chosen.

Can you prove what the state is when it is undeclared? No of course not, this is not a concept addressed within the rules, just like there is no concept of a weapon being loaded with a particular round or not loaded at all. All of that is just smoke that complicates things needlessly

The only concept is that if the unit is described as moving like a jump unit then it gets the jump unit special rules. There is no mention anywhere of this being conditional, and FMC is always described as moving exactly like a jump unit.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Even if it holds true what you say, they can never have any state other than Swooping or Gliding so they'd always be described as "moving like" a jump unit.

What makes you think that a FMC that has not entered neither swooping nor gliding mode cannot exists?

What makes you think can be something other than either one or the other?

Becouse Page 49 clearly defines when a mode can begin and for how long it lasts. Its quite clear that the modes are neither the default state of the unit nor a persistent state but rather a situational exception to the units norm.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
The rules make no mention of declared modes, the only requirement is to be described as "moving like", which it is regardless of the mode it is in.

Wrong on both counts. Page 49 is chalk full of mentions to declared modes, and while page 47's only requirement is the unit be described as 'moving like'; a FMC only 'moves like' while in one of two modes and not for the totality of its existence . The potential to be described as moving like a jump unit is not enough to satisfy page 47.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Given that it cannot move in any mode other than the two which are described as moving like, there is never a situation where the FMC is not described as moving like.

You mean other then any situation where it is not in one of those two modes? Situations like deployment and preparing reserves?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
If there was a 3rd mode or 1 of the modes was not described as moving like then there might be some concern but there isn't .

Every unit it the game moves as described on paged 10 and 11 unless stated otherwise. A FMC only deviates from the movement rules on pages 10 and 11 while it is either swooping or gliding. As desiccated earlier these modes does have a defined beginning and end, and a FMC that is outside of those defined beginning and end of those modes would be required to move as described on pages 10 and 11. This, while not given a name, would be the 3rd mode you think, but will not explain why, does not exist.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Can you prove what the state is when it is undeclared?

There is no state. Why must there be a state? Why must be always be in one of the two flight modes? Nothing says it must be chosen at all times.
It's a rule that simply hasn't been used yet. This does not create a strange vacuum of rules.

As an Ork player I can delare a Waaagh! once per game and give my army some buffs. What happens when I havn't yet done this? What state am I in? One not supported by any rule by the sound of it!

The only concept is that if the unit is described as moving like a jump unit then it gets the jump unit special rules.

And when in Reserve it has not selected Swoop or Glide. So is not described as moving like a Jump unit

and FMC is always described as moving exactly like a jump unit.

No. That is completely false.
Only when Swooping or Gliding is it described as moving like that.
And when in reserve it has not yet selected a flight mode. So it is not moving like a JMC.

Simple question,

What mode is the FMC when you place it into Reserve and cite the rules that support your answer?

We have cited the rules and page numbers that show you that you are neither Gliding or Swooping and thus not JMC. But please, by all means shows us the rules and page numbers that support the mode you are in when placing the FMC into Reserve that allows it to be a JMC.

You want to deny the rule because it doesn't "move like" outside the times that it moves ? WOW

If something begins in the movement phase and last until the next movement phase when the declaration is made again.... there is no "outside of this time"

You're ignoring the simple words "if it is described as moving like jump" the changes in mode are time framed but always it is described as moving like.

This only gets hard when you introduce concepts that just aren't even considered in the game system. Read it at face value and all this turmoil goes away.

Anyway I've said my piece enjoy your games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Simple question,

What mode is the FMC when you place it into Reserve and cite the rules that support your answer?

We have cited the rules and page numbers that show you that you are neither Gliding or Swooping and thus not JMC. But please, by all means shows us the rules and page numbers that support the mode you are in when placing the FMC into Reserve that allows it to be a JMC.

The mode is unimportant.

What needs to be proven is when is an FMC NOT described as moving like a Jump MC ?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What needs to be proven is when is an FMC NOT described as moving like a Jump MC ?

Yes! You are very right and hit the nail on the head with this question. I wish more people had asked it earlier on.

Ok, on to the answer. When Swooping or Gliding (aka: Flight Mode) it is described as moving as a JMC. Only then, no other time.
So in order to be considered a JMC, a flight mode must be selected. Agreed?

Now when can they select a flight mode?

FMC - Changing Flight Mode wrote:At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding unitl the start of its next turn.

FMC Deployment wrote:A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Glide mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept in Reserve then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode.

I've highlighted the three and only three times you may (in fact must) declare a Flight mode.
1). Start of it's movement
2). When it deploys
3). When it arrives from reserve.

You will note that not one of these times are met when it goes into reserve.
So when going into reserve it is NOT described as a Jump unit and does NOT have the Deep Strike special rule.

So the answer of "When is it NOT a JMC" is "When it has not yet selected a flight mode".
And during reserve, it has not selected a flight mode.