While I applaud women in the hobby/game, I find that the vast majority of players I see are men. I've tried to get my wife into the game and while she likes the idea of Salamanders and flaming things, it's been a no-go for me. My friend (the guy I split my first Dark Vengeance box set with) has also tried to get his long time girlfriend to play and it bores her to tears. She at least likes to paint units/models and even though she doesn't know the game has enough sense on tactics to help him with a few games against me here and there...
What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?
Personally, I'm going to try to get my wife to paint a few figures. After she paints a few and grows attached to them, I'm going to get her to play a few games then, hopefully, apocalypse games!
I feel some of the gaming places are unwelcoming to females. I brought my wife in with me while I was model shopping and over heard a group talking about how useless women are in movies unless the show their "goods". My wife turned to me and said "And that's why no women are in here, I'll be in the car until your done."
A friend of mine ran into a woman of middling skill whose strategy for winning tourneys was to play in a low-cut top and giggle incessantly. (She placed pretty well, from what I understand.)
I've only ever seen two female players myself. A mother and daughter who played with their husband and brother. They'd join single table six-to-eight person events at conventions and then act as a team to make sure they placed first through fourth. Then they'd split the prizes amongst each other. Some of the most loathsome behavior I've ever seen in a game.
Never ran into a woman who plays the game habitually, although there were two who used to be part of our gaming club back when I was younger (before I played 40k). They quit long ago, though.
Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
The boob armor doesn't help either.
In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
The boob armor doesn't help either.
In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...
In my experience both are held in the same disdain. Boob armor just makes no sense to me, why have armor that makes it easier to strike you dead?
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.
Going to have to say that is a wee bit sexist. Because I know plenty but feel the environment is unwelcoming.
Well, we are all dealing with small sample sizes. It's difficult to tell why males are overrepresented in the Tabletop gaming market without larger surveys. I personally believe it's a cultural thing as women seemed to be actively discouraged from taking interest in anything not accepted by the majority.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.
Society has created a divide between what boys should like and what girls should like. Luckily, such values are malleable as the huge upswing in female internet users and gamers show.
Firstly, GW needs to advertise and end this "advertising is bad" nonsense that has curtailed GW for decades, secondly, GW needs to make an effort to make the game more than just "white men in space fight gribbly monsters and crazy white men in space".
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.
Society has created a divide between what boys should like and what girls should like. Luckily, such values are malleable as the huge upswing in female internet users and gamers show.
Firstly, GW needs to advertise and end this "advertising is bad" nonsense that has curtailed GW for decades, secondly, GW needs to make an effort to make the game more than just "white men in space fight gribbly monsters and crazy white men in space".
This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
I always thought boob armour is not specific to 40k. Many other things have it. Games, movies, book covers, paintings/artwork. It's probably too widespread and having boob armour is just 40k doing the "usual".
The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.
Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.
Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.
My fiancee enjoys painting models, but has absolutely zero interest in the game itself. She also has no interest in the setting.
Her favorites are females, and contrary to everyone else's experience so far, she likes the highly-sexualized ones. Some of the stuff she buys on her own, once in a blue moon when the mood strikes her, would be stuff I'd not put on the table due to people thinking I was a creep for doing so.
I think it's a mixture of things. There's the fact that when you get a bunch of guys in a room they tend to become even more guy-ish, which is even more offputting to women.
I do also think women are less inclined to want to play with little toy soldiers in the first place.
Then you also have the fact it's a game made by dudes primarily for dudes. You can't blame a guy for making a game that would appeal to him. I'd rather that than some insincere attempt to appease a demographic they themselves do no belong in to (I feel like we are already struggling with a disconnect between GW and the consumers).
In all my years playing I've only met a few women who played. One was a really nice lass, the other was a total attention whore who used to complain about getting too much attention but then acted in a way to draw more attention to herself. The couple of other gaming girls I know I didn't really know all that well to comment on, lol.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.
Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.
Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.
You don't really have to change much.
Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.
Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"
There's nothing all that special about 40k here. There are plenty of male-dominated things that tend to stay male-dominated over time (like lumberjacking and cigar clubs, for example).
It's just basic sociology. If you show up at a social activity, and you're different from everybody else there, you're going to feel more uncomfortable, and less likely to return. Given that there's only one group, people can talk and behave in ways idiosyncratic to the particular members of the group, and not check what they do or say because there are going to be people who will be offended, or won't get it, because they're not "in" on it.
To put it more concretely, for a woman to get into playing 40k as part of a club, they have to climb the considerable hurdle of learning all the 40k jargon, and then have to put up with men behaving the way they do when there aren't women around (namely, in ways in which a woman is also not going to be able to interact). That's two language barriers before you even consider other social cues and peer pressure forces.
It's not to say in any way that women can't do 40k, it's to say that one is about as likely to get involved as me, in all my pasty white midwestern lutheran background is to get in with a group of black guys and start freestyle rapping.
Eminem did it, so, you know, it's possible, and I'm sure there are "competitive" 40k players who are also women, but it doesn't seem very likely.
Of course, what to do about it is an entirely other matter.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.
Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.
Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.
You don't really have to change much.
Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.
Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"
Eldar (and Elves in WHFB) do have quite a few female models, they just tend to look like dudes with boobs more than women.
TheCustomLime wrote: In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...
I've even gotten advice from a female friend on how to paint a 'boob armor' model it better. As nerdy as that friend is, she doesn't play 40k, though she did play Football as a girl, so felt she had some knowledge on the aesthetics of Eldar shoulder pads.
I hate promoting people and videos on the internet, but as this question is interesting to me (I have a 5 year-old neice who is fascinated by my models and the game in general. Seems she wants her own Orks already) I tracked down at least some advice on the subject of getting women into Wargames. Unfortunately it looks like the video I was going to post has been taken off of her feed, so I'll just summarize what the poster said.
It's easiest to get women into the custom painting and crafting side of that, as everybody enjoys expressing their personal tastes. (Beware this may lead to Pink Armies, which I think is awesome). Don't beat them over the head with the rules or overwhelm them with fluff. As always, individual tastes vary, but when you're drowning in names, dates and events it really makes the story not interesting. Or when there are so many rules that you have no idea what you're doing, you feel out of control and just plain confused. That's not a fun game to play.
If you're looking to get a girlfriend, wife or whatever into the game, start with a simplified, streamlined version of the game at first. Take out some of the extra rules and add them in slowly over several games. Let her win some games. Loosing every time isn't fun. Lastly be patient. Some people just aren't into certain things, but most often a wife or long-time girlfriend will want to at least try it out and check it out, just because you're into it and it's something else to do with you. This doesn't mean that every woman will enjoy it and stick with it, as I stated earlier; everybody has their own tastes, but you are most likely to get her to enjoy the game if you take it slowly and find out how she wants to play.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: The game involves warfare in a dark science fantasy dystopia where the equivalent of modern soccer hooligans are the comic relief. That's not a narrative found in books and movies commonly tailored for women's tastes.
Women are free agents, they play, or don't, because that's what they want to do. Some play (I know one) some paint (I know an art student) and some just have other interests.
Changing the game to make it more "acceptable" to women (presuming that anyone actually knows what would be acceptable to them) would likely make it less attractive to the people who have been the loyal customers for many years.
You don't really have to change much.
Just put out more female models for armies that can have women like Eldar of either varieties, the Tau, and the Guard/Inquisition, then make more female special characters. Hell, even the Necrons can have women (the leader of the Maynarkh Dynasty is a woman) and they could use some more special characters anyway.
Of course nonsense like all knight pilots being male has to go. It's not as ingrained as the space marine gender restriction and serves no purpose besides "no gurlz allowed!"
Eldar (and Elves in WHFB) do have quite a few female models, they just tend to look like dudes with boobs more than women.
Also, female models are harder to paint, lol.
To my knowledge, Jain Zar is the only female Eldar special character with rules.
Vash108 wrote: Going to have to say that is a wee bit sexist. Because I know plenty but feel the environment is unwelcoming.
It's not even remotely sexist.
I don't have a problem with women playing wargames, nor do I think that they shouldn't. It's just been my experience over the years that women don't seem to be as interested in wargames as opposed to other types of boardgames.
I agree though that the attitude of many male gamers towards women in the hobby certainly doesn't help the situation.
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
Somehow I missed this post. I'd love for my army to be 50/50. I think it just makes more sense that way, with the Eldar. There are even canonical matriarchal craftworlds, but not the models to represent them. I'd also love a mixed Tau Army, and plan on buying extra Shadowsun models just so I can use her head on Fire Warrior Shas'Ui(s). Needless to say this plan is waaay in back for several reasons (price, have to finish current Eldar Models first....)
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.
You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.
Outside of Sisters (and thus also ignoring Space Marines for having any fault here) how may female Named Characters are there? Jain Zar. Lelith Hesperax. Lady Malys. Commander Shadowsun. Four in the armies I'm very familiar with. There's at least one or two more in the AM Codex, right?
Farseer Morlengal wrote: Outside of Sisters (and thus also ignoring Space Marines for having any fault here) how may female Named Characters are there? Jain Zar. Lelith Hesperax. Lady Malys. Commander Shadowsun. Four in the armies I'm very familiar with. There's at least one or two more in the AM Codex, right?
There are no named female characters in the AM book.
We have St.Celestine, the Masque of Slaanesh, and erm...
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.
You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.
I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.
But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.
You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.
I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.
But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.
And I hope she kicks their ass... ah who am I kidding? She probably barely escaped with her life. Probably lost more of her 'sisters' as well.
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.
You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.
I agree. However, there is a massive lack of female characters and models that I'd like to see addressed. Like Kain said, end the 40k Sausagefest.
But you are right in that the portrayal of female characters is... certainly not all that good. Look at the cover of the new Damocles rule book. Here is Shadowsun, one of the few female characters in the game, in a situation where she is defenseless against the big macho supermen.
I don't really think that qualifies as sexist, so much. Many of the iconic pieces of the genre feature a hero being menaced by a threat that appears like it will destroy them. The hopeless battle is kind of 40k's thing.
As for the Imperial Gua *Ahem* Astra Militarum ... there should be more female models. It doesn't seem like the AM discriminate based on sex: men, women, as long as they can shoot a las-rifle, they are all meat in the grinder. Heck, back in the 3rd Ed Imperial Guard Codex there was a two page Administratis Requisitionem document which depicted a number of worlds that raise regiments for the IG. Some of them are quite well known, being the official ones that GW was pushing, one of them, (the Death Korps of Krieg) were mentioned for the first time and eventually became FW product, and the rest are mainly just stuff to fill out the ranks. One world mentioned was Xenonia and whereas the other pictures were all male, this world had a woman. Under that picture was the following, "Fierce fighters. No mercy. Serve the Emperor well." One can only speculate if Xenonia is a matriarchy, or have an extreme gender imbalance for some reason.
While I've met female gamers before, and there are a good number of them at the current FLGS I play at, I've yet to meet one for either 40k or WHFB. Also, while the store also hosts Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity, none of the mini gamers are women. Oddly, while in the past I expected most female gamers would be role-players, currently we have more female board gamers than female RPGers.
I don't have a problem with women playing wargames, nor do I think that they shouldn't. It's just been my experience over the years that women don't seem to be as interested in wargames as opposed to other types of boardgames.
I agree though that the attitude of many male gamers towards women in the hobby certainly doesn't help the situation.
I don't think there's anything that would. I simply think tabletop wargaming with plastic soldiermens isn't something most women are interested in. Bully for the ones who are, by all means, but I think the notion that the hobby could hit 50/50 parity with a concerted PC push is fallacious.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
The boob armor doesn't help either.
In my experience women do not mind boob armor as much as they do armor that shows off skin. Anecdotes mean piss so...
Indeed. I must admit I am not a fan of either. Although in fact I don't mind really skimpy gear in some cases where it actually has a plausible reason (E.g Lelith Hesperax) but sometimes it does get rather stupid.
insaniak wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote: This, ultimately. However, I do not think they should do this by pushing SoB as the "Girl choice". I think the other factions just need a better M/F balance when it comes to their models and characters. 50/50 would be ideal but I'd be happy with 60/40.
It's not really a need for more female characters specifically... it comes down more to how those characters who are there are portrayed.
You don't specifically need girly dolls for the girls to be interested, any more than guys are only interested in all-male armies.
Yuuuup. CSM work very well for me, and I don't even have any Slaaneshi whatever-gendered marines. The fact Marines are all male does not really bother me, it somehow fits their theme.
Ancestral Hamster wrote:As for the Imperial Gua *Ahem* Astra Militarum ... there should be more female models. It doesn't seem like the AM discriminate based on sex: men, women, as long as they can shoot a las-rifle, they are all meat in the grinder. Heck, back in the 3rd Ed Imperial Guard Codex there was a two page Administratis Requisitionem document which depicted a number of worlds that raise regiments for the IG. Some of them are quite well known, being the official ones that GW was pushing, one of them, (the Death Korps of Krieg) were mentioned for the first time and eventually became FW product, and the rest are mainly just stuff to fill out the ranks. One world mentioned was Xenonia and whereas the other pictures were all male, this world had a woman. Under that picture was the following, "Fierce fighters. No mercy. Serve the Emperor well." One can only speculate if Xenonia is a matriarchy, or have an extreme gender imbalance for some reason.
While I've met female gamers before, and there are a good number of them at the current FLGS I play at, I've yet to meet one for either 40k or WHFB. Also, while the store also hosts Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity, none of the mini gamers are women. Oddly, while in the past I expected most female gamers would be role-players, currently we have more female board gamers than female RPGers.
Why there are no guardswomen is something I don't really understand. Maybe it's harder to sculpt than Cadian gorillas.
My wife sort of enjoys the occasional game of LOTR, especially as she sees how much the kids enjoy it, but she has no interest in 40k. And the stores are a massive turnoff for women of all ages, mainly because of the aforementioned sausagefest fluff and the desperate misogyny that follows many sub-30 males around.
I'm not sure it can be fixed by GW. Only players raising their daughters resisting traditional gender roles will help.
Ashiraya wrote: Why there are no guardswomen is something I don't really understand. Maybe it's harder to sculpt than Cadian gorillas.
I'm not jumping to GW's defense here, but I think sculpting female models must be harder than male models. The more delicate feminine features are much more prone to looking flat out wrong if sculpted badly. Also painting female models to a table top standard is harder, I don't really lament not having many female models because they're much more of a pain in the arse to paint.
My gf of 3 years started playing a year ago when I got back into the game. Inspiring creativity definitely goes a long way. She started with an old marine army I had and kinda got bored of them so I suggested dark eldar and she's kept with it. She likes them, tyranids, and chaos. Anyways, starting with small games and kill teams to learn basic rules helps. Most of it seems to be just picking the right army as well. As far as modelling goes though she does hate the female characters that show alot of skin. Since then they have hired a female at the local gw store so maybe they are trying to promote that its okay for women too. When she first started working there she had no clue about anything and hadn't started an army even. Idk we'll see if this increases the amount of female players in my area.
ruprecht wrote: I'm not sure it can be fixed by GW. Only players raising their daughters resisting traditional gender roles will help.
Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots. Definitely there's some societal reinforcement of roles, but I also think there are some definite differences in psychology that make boys more prone to want to play table top war games and video games like battlefield or call of duty or even strategy games like warcraft. Not to say that a female can't enjoy those things or that there's anything wrong with a female enjoying those things, just sometimes I think the attitude that we should have 50/50 male/female in all areas of life is just as wrong as having a 5/95 at times.
My previous GF had her own Hero Quest from when she was little. She was moderately interested in playing (even ordered all her own daemon army online). Then one day she stopped into GW to buy paint, and was accosted by a redshirt who weirded her out so much that she refused to ever go back. Exclaiming that the shop was "full of nerds". Which in fairness... it is.
Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.
In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots. Definitely there's some societal reinforcement of roles, but I also think there are some definite differences in psychology that make boys more prone to want to play table top war games and video games like battlefield or call of duty or even strategy games like warcraft. Not to say that a female can't enjoy those things or that there's anything wrong with a female enjoying those things, just sometimes I think the attitude that we should have 50/50 male/female in all areas of life is just as wrong as having a 5/95 at times.
You're quite right, and my kids are to some extent the same. The boy likes lego and 40k and hitting stuff with swords, and the girl like Frozen and pink and elastic band bracelets and shooting nerf arrows at her brother. And we try hard not to pigeonhole them, they just come out differently. I'm not suggesting there's no difference, but there is definitely a societal norm that will shift (not to 50/50, but in that direction). I'm more enlightened in that way than my parents were, and they were more so than their own parents.
Reality is that tabletop has stayed niche for 25 years while computer gaming went mainstream, and the gender imbalance is unlikely to alter much until that changes.
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Disturb3d wrote: Since then they have hired a female at the local gw store so maybe they are trying to promote that its okay for women too. When she first started working there she had no clue about anything and hadn't started an army even. Idk we'll see if this increases the amount of female players in my area.
I'd like to think that was in order to attract a female customer base, but I suspect it's to attract more teenage boys.
Goldphish wrote: In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.
I remember that from the days where my local GW still was worth actually paying a visit every now and then.
Yay for my new meta having people able to take showers, I guess?
koooaei wrote: Maybe for the same reason there are not many women in the army and, say, chess. Men and women have different interests and abilities. That's nature.
Yeah, I'll agree with the previous posts in saying that it's a combination of an unwelcoming culture and wider gender socialisation that deter women from the hobby. Of coure, the latter has improved and still is improving, though the former is still very much an issue. Though I think that it's also steadily improving.
I remember reading a really interesting post on another forum about how a someone had surveyed female 40K players, and found that all or most of them felt unwelcome in 40K due to male players treating them differently. They also found that female palyers were happiest when they formed their own little groups. Really wish I could find it again, it was interesting, if a bit disheartening to read.
I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Funny thing is, I have a niece and a nephew, neither of them are raised in such a way that you'd think they're reinforcing gender roles... but the girl is so much a girl and the boy is so much a boy even as tiny tots.
Well, that's not the only factor though. Society at large is also going to be a big influence, stuff like TV and other people. Additionally, parents can treat their kids differently based upon gender without even realising it. For example, a study found that parents hold their babies differently depending on which gender it is. So even when you think that the environment's influence has been ruled out, it may not have been.
That's not to say that biology has zero influence in this, it certainly does. But the influence of the environment certainly shouldn't be discarded.
Gender differences are not only inspired by society. Do you know that simple experiment with toys? Where little kids are given a set of different toys. Dolls and cars. And the majority of girls pick dolls to play with while boys pick cars. Noone tells them what to pick. Noone taught them before - they're too young to be influenced this way. That's just genetics. And it affects us for the whole life. So, i think that girls generally don't like strategy games with bloody brutal hursh settings for a reason. Yep, some girls do like it and it's perfectly fine. But the majority doesn't no matter what you do. That's just the exact same reason why most men don't like emotional soap operas and find them boring.
Anywayz, no matter what you think bout it - don't try to force someone into the hobby if they don't find it interesting in the first place. People are just different and gender differences apply also.
My girlfriend doesn't find this game amazing but likes painting models. We're also planning on modelling some extra parts that the army currently needs using poly-clay (don't know how's that modelling plastic called in english).
It's not the game. It's the often-toxic community. This is as true in comic books, RPGs, and video games... basically anything that is "geek culture". There's a very strong undercurrent of misogyny and sexism in a lot of geek cultures, not in every small local group, to be sure, and some cultures seem to attract a larger percentage than others...
... but, hell, just read any of the news about various conventions for comics, games, whatever, over the past couple of years. Even industry conventions that aren't really open to the public.
koooaei wrote: Gender differences are not only inspired by society. Do you know that simple experiment with toys? Where little kids are given a set of different toys. Dolls and cars. And the majority of girls pick dolls to play with while boys pick cars. Noone tells them what to pick. Noone taught them before - they're too young to be influenced this way. That's just genetics. And it affects us for the whole life. So, i think that girls generally don't like strategy games with bloody brutal hursh settings for a reason. Yep, some girls do like it and it's perfectly fine. But the majority doesn't no matter what you do. That's just the exact same reason why most men don't like emotional soap operas and find them boring.
Such experiment is worthless unless the children have lived in a gender neutral society (which pretty much do not exist.) Gender conditioning starts from the birth. (Not saying that genetics do not affect preferences, merely that this experiment doesn't prove it.)
What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?
Immature guys, thinking that women should play nids or eldar ,and no other army and always lose . I don't think there are more women doing table top games then there did 2 years ago . I started , because my boyfriend started too and we needed a fourth player to play. I already played MtG , so I wasn't totaly shocked by the table top gaming community . I think it started getting a lot better when I found out about other systems . WM is more balanced and I found out that I like skirmish systems better. Infinity gave me a ton of models I realy like the looks of , unlike the GWAM models.
Part of the problem I have with wargaming is the tendency towards 1v1 games. I like computer games and have since a young age and 1v1 has never retained my interest for anything. Wargames, though, just seem to typically have a multiplayer mode tacked on the tend if that, without much thought. Maintaining interest in wargames is a constant struggle for everything I like about them to overcome that fundamental flaw.
For what it's worth, I came to tabletop wargames by way of Hero Quest too.
And women already have the best faction in 40k: Tyranids.
In literally every case, as in 100% on the dot, of my personal experiences with women in gaming:
a: They are extremely disinterested in the numbers and mechanics. They don't want to think about which option presents better odds, or what the rolls necessary will even be, they will grapple that dragon with their halfling.
b: They are extremely non-competitive, to the point where they act as if their lot in life, in terms of games, is to be the loser that others can triumph over. They don't seem to put any value in getting better, and sometimes even make sub-par decisions to intentionally decrease their chance of winning. They may take some ironic pride in saying "I won once!"
These are obviously not true for every woman, and it's entirely possible that some of the women in this sample group (which is approximately 15 in number, 1 being my wifey!) have changed. However, during the time in which I observed them, these behaviors were 100% accurate.
40k is a game that, at heart, is about murder and violence. Women have natural tendencies to nuture rather than attack, and wargaming in general goes against that. When you see women in the hobby, it is, as a general rule, because they started in painting and modeling. If you want more women in the hobby, start there.
However, I do not think that pulling in women is the real issue. I think we need to change the stigma surrounding the players we already have. Everyone thinks we are all smelly basement dwellers. Simple things can change that image. Shower before heading to the FLGS. Dress well. Groom your hair and beard. Act like you are actually in a public setting. Lose some weight. Changing the perception of our hobby is paramount to changing the population of our hobby.
cardboardcrackhead wrote: However, I do not think that pulling in women is the real issue. I think we need to change the stigma surrounding the players we already have. Everyone thinks we are all smelly basement dwellers.
Funnily enough, I've found that stereotype comes far more frequently from amongst gamers themselves, rather than being an outside perception. Most people not actually involved in gaming don't know enough about it to know what sort of people do it.
I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?
Gender equality is proportionally great here. I mean, women get an average of 15% lower pay for the same jobs and all but it could be much worse.
As for the gaming community, I have never spotted another female gamer here. One, if a GW employee counts. I don't count in girlfriends who just hang along etc. into the 'gamer' category.
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cardboardcrackhead wrote: 40k is a game that, at heart, is about murder and violence. Women have natural tendencies to nuture rather than attack, and wargaming in general goes against that.
Perhaps true, but such stereotypical gender ideas no longer carry any real relevance. I can certainly see what you mean though. It's almost a bit sad, I rant to another girl in my class about the glorious carnage of 40K and they don't get it at all. I sometimes feel like I am the only one who giggles with glee when a Boltgun blows up a cultist in my DoWII mod.
Ive been with my girlfriend 8 years she has:
tau, necron, csm, deamon and lizardman armys.
she has probably played 25 games in that time, 50% of those used variant rules for story telling and other non competitive game types. I struggle to enthuse her about the basic game. she enjoys the setting and the art side and to be fair that's what interests me most too. Games can be long and lop sided.
She has no issue with game shops ect, its normally me that does the pulling away lol.
I think a better scope for female models would help, as she routinely asks for help converting female models or she sticks to ambiguous models like crons. even tho we did make a overlord sp character with boob armour - her request!
I wonder if smaller scale, more involved or roleplay (steady) focused games would see a more spread gender base. Something of the scale of Inquisitor/Necromunda/Kill Team. Just basing this on the fact that a few of our female posters are frequenters of the fluff forum.
its just this simple: Women dont generally like table top wargames.
If they did, there would be companies started by women with games for women. I dont believe at all the talk about women dont dare play or that they just cant because they are oppressed by GW or other gamers.
I do however believe that you can produce games that women enjoy but I dont see the reason to change a hobby a man likes just because a woman dont want to participate. To say that women dont want to play because they are afraid of being socially marked as wierd by other females or males in society is just plain sexist. I repeat that is just fething sexist claims.
I dont know how it is in the rest of the world but I sure as hell dont get any street cred or women drooling over my manliness if I openly would declare Im a grown man playing war. I can take the harassment and I dont believe women are this weaker gender who cant.
We see this in talk in the videogame community now also. Women dont like to play the same games as men there either, but in the video game community people (both men and women) have started creating games that women like. People have being sexist scum there aswell saying women cant stand to see blood or boobs or being called [see forum posting rules], bitch or noob, only men are strong enough snd I say FU to those people.
in the video game community they have reached further than us. There people are constantly and openly claiming that what men like is a bad thing and should be reduced. things like: "the only reason women are portait in videogames like they are is because men like it". and again FU to such sexist gak. why cant mens interest be as ok as for women?
got a little long, and written on phone so please excuse spelling
I know no female 40k player IRL. My friends' girlfriends don't show any interest in the game nor in the fluff. Single girls that get to know it don't show interest either. Both groups play RPGs, what I'd say it would be a first step to like other nerdy stuff... but not in this case.
I've tried to get my fiance involved but I'm a geek and it's too geeky for her. She's offered to paint but the last time she tried she painted a shoulder pad red and then got bored. Too small for her to paint apparently. She's not a very girly, girl, she loves Pin head and Zombies and stuff, does karate and cars, but 40k is a stretch to far. I've asked if she would like to come along for a game to meet my regular opponents wife, who is a bit more interested in the hobby as she does all the painting for him, but she said it's boring to sit and watch. Which I guess it is for someone who doesn't have an interest in it. She seemed a bit more into the idea when I mentioned shoe shops.
My step daughter had finished all her books, Harry Potter, Vampire Diaries and stuff, and I lent her Horus Rising to read. She read it and said no more.
I don't think it's their sort of thing in general.
I have seen and met some girls who do game though, one of them is a very good player and has a fair few armies. So it does happen, It's like a Barbie and Action Man, kinda thing.
I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?
There is a high degree of gender neutrality and it's increasing, but it doesn't apply to what is viewed as "childish boy activity" in my view. It's a generation thing, from what I can see at Dragon's Lair (a local gaming community/store in Stockholm) I see more and more young girls get into traditionally boy hobbies such as board games and TCGs as well as there's starting to be a shift when it comes to comics going from all of them being "serietidningar" (comic books for young boys, i.e. Donald Duck) to society being aware that there's a distinct difference between Donald Duck and Sandman or Superman and Berserk or even Superman and Donald Duck.
I think in general it's a matter of culture and how the culture view these sort of things. Still not up to snuff in Sweden. Maybe in a generation or two women won't be legal aliens anymore, but rather integrated citizens so to speak.
P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem, but rather that it's more a subjective thing regarding of how the individuals themselves are portrayed. What I mean is that the clothes (or lack there of) doesn't matter as much as if the gender is held as victims or heroes/villains on a regular basis. I.e. weak versus strong. In 40k you get strong males consistently while females... not so much. Near naked doesn't matter.
P.p.s. a sensibly dressed soldier is going to be difficult to tell the gender of. Also, females aren't harder to paint, naked bodies are, in my experience. I mean, slightly larger hips and slightly rounder torso as well as a tendency for longer hair doesn't do all that much of a difference.
My girlfriend in high school used to "play" Eldar, but she generally was way more into painting them than actually playing the game. We did have fun a few times playing multiplayer games against my friends as a team.
My advice would be if you want more females playing 40k, and you play in a store, get the people you play with to start showering. Nobody likes to spend time around The Great Unclean One, but in my experience most women will find it even more intolerable.
Goldphish wrote: Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.
In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.
To be perfectly fair, there are also unhygienic women who game. I've just never encountered any of them playing 40k...
There are also plenty of women who game precisely FOR the attention. Because of whatever issues they have, they seek the male attention (and relatively low female competition) of gaming groups. They just don't seem to frequent all game types equally. LARPs, for instance, are choked with 'em.
I asked my wife why she hated 40k (she hates 40k) to which she responded, and I quote, "I don't like space robots." Not excessively helpful.
While we can't help the setting being pretty sexist, I don't think we really have to. The setting is a LOT of things. The setting is also incredibly militarized, it's depressing, it's aetheistic, it's cyclical, racist, static, and portrays (in a relatively positive--or at the worst neutral--light) a panoply of loathsome behaviors from demon worship to drug use to child soldiery to torture. All of these things are considered in real life, at least by some people, to be "bad."
I can't really say why females aren't attracted to the setting (although I have noticed that women tend to be ambivalent to disdainful of almost every dystopian/post-apocalyptic setting, which are almost always incredibly sexist), but if we're trying to hash out what we can do as a community to try and have more women in the hobby, it's pretty simple, and boils down to the same list of things we do to get more gamers (male OR female) into the hobby:
1. Be friendly and welcoming.
2. Don't be cliquish.
3. Don't be creepy.
4. Don't be patronizing.
That seems to be about the extent of it, at least to my eyes.
I notice you're from Sweden. I hear they're quite good in terms of gender equality? I'm curious, do you see many other female wargamers around?
There is a high degree of gender neutrality and it's increasing, but it doesn't apply to what is viewed as "childish boy activity" in my view. It's a generation thing, from what I can see at Dragon's Lair (a local gaming community/store in Stockholm) I see more and more young girls get into traditionally boy hobbies such as board games and TCGs as well as there's starting to be a shift when it comes to comics going from all of them being "serietidningar" (comic books for young boys, i.e. Donald Duck) to society being aware that there's a distinct difference between Donald Duck and Sandman or Superman and Berserk or even Superman and Donald Duck.
I think in general it's a matter of culture and how the culture view these sort of things. Still not up to snuff in Sweden. Maybe in a generation or two women won't be legal aliens anymore, but rather integrated citizens so to speak.
P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem, but rather that it's more a subjective thing regarding of how the individuals themselves are portrayed. What I mean is that the clothes (or lack there of) doesn't matter as much as if the gender is held as victims or heroes/villains on a regular basis. I.e. weak versus strong. In 40k you get strong males consistently while females... not so much. Near naked doesn't matter.
P.p.s. a sensibly dressed soldier is going to be difficult to tell the gender of. Also, females aren't harder to paint, naked bodies are, in my experience. I mean, slightly larger hips and slightly rounder torso as well as a tendency for longer hair doesn't do all that much of a difference.
Sweden is very prominent in gender equality in many fields were it matter (fortunately) as in equal salary, equal job opportunities (even though we see that there is some distinction in interest when we give women and men freedom to choose). I would be very worried if it was the opposite around. like Mahtamori said; there is not much work in making a 50/50 representation in things which is consider childish boy-stuff
nor is there any work towards making it 50/50 in low income jobs or things which are generally consider obligations and demands. The focus is basically only on how can we make women more powerful, have more high payed jobs and such. Usually the approach is not to change womens attitude like try to enhance their competitive thinking or similar but just try to change the environment so that it suits them. Make the thing we want women in a place were they can just be them selves basically, and not set the same demands on them as for men (that would be sexist)
To clarify that last part. I dont think men have some kind of unfair demand against them when playing 40k which women also should suffer. I just find the argument that women dont want to play because they dont want to be seen as gamers in society and that men stink are just plain sexist. If women dont want to play 40k there isnt even any reason to force them (other than for GW profit). Instead make a game that women like (or if you could, make a game both like) but until then don't change 40k to suit people that dont like 40k. It is not as important that we have 50/50 representation in 40k or videogames or even in the cinema as it is to have 50/50 in the head of government or in the board of general electrics for example. And if you think its similar or if you think its even more important then you have either not been thinking or you have a very distorted view of this tiny hobby.
Goldphish wrote: Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.
In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.
I asked my wife why she hated 40k (she hates 40k) to which she responded, and I quote, "I don't like space robots." Not excessively helpful.
While we can't help the setting being pretty sexist, I don't think we really have to. The setting is a LOT of things. The setting is also incredibly militarized, it's depressing, it's aetheistic, it's cyclical, racist, static, and portrays (in a relatively positive--or at the worst neutral--light) a panoply of loathsome behaviors from demon worship to drug use to child soldiery to torture. All of these things are considered in real life, at least by some people, to be "bad."
That seems to be about the extent of it, at least to my eyes.
A girl walks into a Games Woskshop, the neckbeards look up and the following ensues:
Actually, the clip summarises GW's marketing policy when ever I walk into a store
I've shortened the posts down to the points I'm referring to. I think you're both right about what is putting women off. It simply is a setting and style of game that is unappealing to women (in general) as well as being the domain of a (majority in my opinion) group of single guys who are awkward and... well you can fill in the rest of the insults and laugh / take it personally as you see fit. It's just not appealing to them.
It's like when I walk into the living room and find my other half knitting babywear with some of her friends. Sure, they wouldn't mind if I joined them and knitted a lovely beanie hat - but I prefer to paint warhammer models and roll dice. Yes you will find some fellas who love nothing better than to crochet, and they are the equivalent of the girls who like warhammer - they exist but are not the norm. Personally I don't find the population of female players surprising.
Rather than all jumping on the few women who take an interest in warhammer - those guys should take an interest in the girls hobbies: it'll improve them as people, makes them more out-going and helps them take a genuine interest in the girl as a person.
It's like when I walk into the living room and find my other half knitting babywear with some of her friends. Sure, they wouldn't mind if I joined them and knitted a lovely beanie hat - but I prefer to paint warhammer models and roll dice. Yes you will find some fellas who love nothing better than to crochet, and they are the equivalent of the girls who like warhammer - they exist but are not the norm. Personally I don't find the population of female players surprising.
This ^
I'm glad that no one is bugging me about starting knitting, gossiping about other peoples babies or take pole dancing courses. But its slightly off-putting how distorted the society is when coming to different interest and how no one tries to make knitting more interesting to men. Why is the knitting community so recentful and unwilling to change to a mans interest. I maybe would love to knit if it was more about knitting in front of some MMA fight with a cold beer (and not so many women, because they stink), but no one seem to make the effort amongst the women to make this happen
My fiance isn't interested in a setting with guns. If I were into Ancient Romans versus Celts, she might play. She's watched a few games now, but doesn't give a damn about it.
If I was talking about 40k specifically, I would probably say that it's underepresentaition that has pushed me out and if not for fairly easy introduction would have keep me out originally.
This also sets the tone for the atmosphere for the game in general.
A lot of it could be bridged with good marketing, but bigger company's fail constantly at that, so GW isn't at all odd in that way lol.
If GW was going to push for more girls in the hobby, it would have to bring in some more representation. And probably mature a bit with its story's in the setting and codexs for general consumption within he hobby.
One of the things I have noticed is that the other games I play have little trouble getting interest from my friends, but 40k allmost pushes them away when ever they have gotten interest.
Why wargaming male friends flock to 40k and seems allmost perplexed why I would not choose it over warmachine/infinty/halo or any other fantasy or sci fi setting.
In the end I don't think the setting needs to change, but realy how GW use it. One of the bigist is lack of female models, I spend so much time trying to find suitable female models I lose enthusiasm very quickly since I end up wasting hobby time in stores and on forums searching.
If I was to speak less specifically and wargaming as a whole, I would say it will just take time for the culture to change. But it would need to change a bit from within as well as how it is seen outside the hobby, a lot of people still don't even know it exists to have an opinion at all I find.
People in general within the hobby are fine, but allways some bads in the bunches. I also find that it's rare for guys to come up and chat about the games as much, leaving me often sitting there a lot more within groups. Something realy not found in board gaming and gaming culture now so much.
Maybe if we stopped treating female players as female players, and just treated them as opponents, they'd be more interested in joining the hobby.
This post drips with sincerity of the plight of female gamers, but it incurs the most basic mistake possible while playing this game.
It makes the mistake of separating them into a different category. They're not "Players", they're "Female Players".
Maybe, if you could just set up across from a woman, roll dice across from a woman and win/lose across from a woman, just like you do across from a man, we wouldn't be in this situation.
Also, I've been in game stores in the South during the summer many times. Chicks REALLY don't like the smell of BO, guys. Wash your backside every day and wear deodorant.
a week or so ago i had my long time girlfriend play a game with me in the house on our own table and slowly taught her afew rules and the "basics" of the game.
she enjoyed the game and the thrill of the close game we had.
as i was showing her afew armies and the different fluffs they had she seems to like dark eldar the most. she enjoys to paint on paper but she likes the diffrences of painting a model. i let her paint my LOC and she enjoyed it.
if you are trying to get a special someone or even just a friend to play i would say dont shove the game down her throat and take it slow
It's all about the "strategic" setting and thinking, regardless whether it be tabletop, computer games, board games, in fact games at all as long they are not luck based games. She doesn't have interest in planning/decision-making for an unreal "world", it seems, even more so because it's all about war. On the other hand a friend of mine does play 40k but she has a wholly different mentality regarding games and strategy.
It makes the mistake of separating them into a different category. They're not "Players", they're "Female Players".
Maybe, if you could just set up across from a woman, roll dice across from a woman and win/lose across from a woman, just like you do across from a man, we wouldn't be in this situation.
Female players is better than saying 'those busty players' for three reasons: 1) It's politer 2) Busty still covers half the male players and 3) It differentiates between the genders when discussing it on here; otherwise you end up with the following forms of comments:
''Why do we have fewer players compared with players? We would like to have more players but the players keep making it horrible by jumping on the players when they walk into a store. Players smell and need to wash because players don't like the smell of players''
Orkimedezz wrote: i would say dont shove the game down her throat and take it slow
Maybe I am blessed with a meta that treats women better but I have never seen any women coming into the store and getting accosted. I regularly see women come in but it's usually to buy boardgames/magic or playing Magic. I am of the opinion that it's 40k itself that is a turn off to most women rather than it's playerbase.
Though, I really do think the cheesecake models in military wargames need to go. Not just because they objectify women but because they are fething stupid.
Around my current era it has more to do with the elitist neckbeards than anything.
My gf and myself don't fit the "nerd" archetype (in other words I look like frat douche and she looks like a sorority girl) and you'd think we were fething monsters walking into any of the hobby stores around here, I only have one place I'll play because the other 3 stores treat any non "nerd" like they're worthless, from flat out refusing to play to uttering insults under their breath, one fat sack of crap said "Ughh so tired of these cheap ass wannabes trying to takeover 40k" when I asked him if he thought the bones minis would work as spawn in my Chaos army. Not to mention of my gf is with me their state at her like she's the last donut at a fat cop convention, I'm a pretty confident dude and I even get weirded out with the feeling "I don't belong" when I'm in these places I can only imagine how gakky it must be to be a girl and deal with those donkey-caves.
2x210 wrote: Around my current era it has more to do with the elitist neckbeards than anything.
My gf and myself don't fit the "nerd" archetype (in other words I look like frat douche and she looks like a sorority girl) and you'd think we were fething monsters walking into any of the hobby stores around here, I only have one place I'll play because the other 3 stores treat any non "nerd" like they're worthless, from flat out refusing to play to uttering insults under their breath, one fat sack of crap said "Ughh so tired of these cheap ass wannabes trying to takeover 40k" when I asked him if he thought the bones minis would work as spawn in my Chaos army. Not to mention of my gf is with me their state at her like she's the last donut at a fat cop convention, I'm a pretty confident dude and I even get weirded out with the feeling "I don't belong" when I'm in these places I can only imagine how gakky it must be to be a girl and deal with those donkey-caves.
The thing is, girls dont even like to play at all, regardless of those caves you have over there. We also have one good store and one bad store and we play at home either way, its better, you can combine gaming with beer or wine and a barbeque. However the fundamental thing is that females lack interest in the essence of wargaming. They could be further hindered by freaks in the shop, but if they really liked the game they would create their own clubs, shops and companies as men do.
Why do men seem to like Action movies while women often prefer romantic comedies? I think it has a lot to do with gender norms and upbringing. Boys grow up on He-Man, Conan, G.I. Joe, etc. which instills the idea of the mighty warrior and being 'Manly'. I think this makes it easier for them to become invested in a hobby that revolves around War and competition whereas most women probably see it as an overly expensive and complicated board game.
Why bring chess into it? Simple: there are no models to paint (so model sexism isn't a factor), cost isn't a factor (chess is extremely cheap to get into) and you aren't going to find grown men making "pew pew" noises while moving pieces around. In other words it doesn't have any of the negative stereotypes normally associated with guys that play games at a comic book store.
The main thing in common is that Chess is a strategy game AND has very few female players. My *guess* here is simply that such games aren't appealing to a wide variety of women.
Why bring chess into it? Simple: there are no models to paint (so model sexism isn't a factor), cost isn't a factor (chess is extremely cheap to get into) and you aren't going to find grown men making "pew pew" noises while moving pieces around. In other words it doesn't have any of the negative stereotypes normally associated with guys that play games at a comic book store.
The main thing in common is that Chess is a strategy game AND has very few female players. My *guess* here is simply that such games aren't appealing to a wide variety of women.
I was slightly sorry that they didnt seem to tackle the issue of why females are less interested in chess. Its not really that much of a problem, as long as people can agree that it is so. Otherwise it was a good article, I was expecting some biased gender studies thing, but they didnt cross that line. It actually explains a lot in terms of board room ratios of men and females also without sinking into the trap of "females are scared of board rooms".
The first page seems to be similar to here, a lot of people have theory's but one that comes up a lot is chess is male dominated and it means it is harder as a female player to get into it. As even when they do they are in a very intimidating enviroment.
The second one I missed a bunch of info, sleepy lol
I would also think that chess is not very relevant unless a lot of warhammer players actually play chess, and regularly. Which I think would be a interesting poll to place on dakka :0
The chess thread was pretty unenlightening generally. The main interesting parts were the scientific paper (the conclusion of which was that the rating differences between men and women in competitive chess could be almost entirely explained by the participation difference, statistically) and the one comment about a higher proportion of younger girls being interested in chess.
I was really proud when I finally beat my dad at chess. Again, though, chess doesn't interest me a great deal because you're forced to play it 1v1, and I would rather play something that lets me play with people, not just against them. So 2v2 is really fun and interesting, but with 1v1 I get so little out of it that honestly I'd usually prefer to just watch the game.
Whilst I run a store, I also run a separate club.
We have a 30% female participation rate, and are equally split with a 50/50 ages being <18 as >18.
No one is under the age of 16.
Our biggest problem is to with the rules and regulations of Club exec members for Child Protection Policies, especially when, as a man, I am immediately suspect. So....I then had to find a woman, willing to aid me to allow those who wished to participate.
Two members came with their older brother, with parental consent (blood relation), but this was restrictive as it meant they were the only ones allowed to attend, couldn't bring their interested friends etc.
We have now reached a stable population, met all these challenges and jumped these sharks: but the end result is such that those players have fallen by the wayside, which has reduced the total number of ladies participating.
This has to have some impact: how often are women warned about men? The fact that most wargamers and games players have some lack, or perceived lack, of social grace only further drives women away. This is a cultural norm that further tacks onto the 'silly boys games' tag for many women.
Indeed, many times when asked what I do for a living, I end up feeling that I am being weighed and judged by those scales.
Further to this, though, is the surprise and positive reactions we get when we do have someone new join us. It's just that first initial hurdle can be too high for some to surmount.
First, I just want to say that as a male gamer, I'd love to see more variety in the genders in armies. Like Eldar that aren't Howling Banshees, or more Elves that aren't relegated to a unit like the Witch Elves. Or Imperial Guard. It'd just feel more like a "real" army. Heck, when I did a long Imperial Guard story a few years ago, I included a lot of females, because it makes sense that the Imperium would throw them in there, too.
Anyway, on the main topic... Not sure you can do much to change it. The attitude of some male gamers doesn't help, certainly. I've seen some female gamers, but they're usually someone else's significant other than was convinced to try the games.
One of the things would be figuring out how to frame it when talking to a woman about it. If she's not into any kind of game, just stop right there. But if she's into something like board games, you have an "in." You can explain how it's really just like a more complex board game where you get to show off your artistic talent as well. Perhaps over-simplifying, but I think it's accurate.
It is strange, though, that I could know a young woman who plays video games (like Baldur's Gate), enjoys card games like Killer Bunnies, and yet wouldn't really be that into miniatures games. No idea why. Psychology isn't my strong suit and I hate to assume.
Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.
My GF has come to enjoy the hobby and it is something we work on and play together.
I think what it really boils down to is personal preference. Normally she finds the generally depressing and dark setting to be a deterrent, but at the same time, she recognizes and likes many of the themes found in fantasy and science-fiction literature that she reads.
I play the Imperial Guard, and she had become attached to the Eldar, which I am slowly painting for her as she picks out figures and time permits.
I don't think she really understood the hobby until it she was able to see it. YouTube casters like StrikingScorpion82 really make the game look beautiful and he likes to stress thematic elements as well. Both of us look forward to each new show he posts.
My wife feels like every time she walks into a game store with me everybody stops what they're doing and stares like the guys on the nude beach in Eurotrip.
The problem is not so much 40K players in my experience but the people who are playing card games and/or Pathfinder, who are much more lacking in hygiene in my experience.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.
We have try to allways put it in places where it is easy to keep evryone safe, it's a tough thing if you cannot get a location like that.
I also rember being asked why I bother getting so many female models for my 40k army's, and having to deal with not using official models can cause issues on rare occasions :( that now makes me think of another reason I probably slowly leaving 40k now.
ErikSetzer wrote: First, I just want to say that as a male gamer, I'd love to see more variety in the genders in armies. Like Eldar that aren't Howling Banshees, or more Elves that aren't relegated to a unit like the Witch Elves. Or Imperial Guard. It'd just feel more like a "real" army. Heck, when I did a long Imperial Guard story a few years ago, I included a lot of females, because it makes sense that the Imperium would throw them in there, too.
Eldar were my first real army (AFAIK, this was before Tyranids were an actual thing!) and their fluff was all about how both male and female eldar would become aspect warriors and guardians and since they pretty much all had helmets I imagined there were both men and women in the units. These days they (at least some of them) seem to have boob-plate, unfortunately, so instead of "wow any of these could be women, that's so cool" it's "these specific ones with the stupid-looking boob-plate are women and the rest are men."
I don't know if it's just my experience, but the card game player hygiene comments seem off to me because I'm pretty much always the only woman pushing miniatures around but there are waaaaaay more playing Magic (and I haven't had any problems with wargamer hygiene either, other than the occasional unfortunate case of "plumber's crack").
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Yes, I've got to admit, being around dingy, partly-run-down commercial or industrial districts at nearly midnight does set off the self preservation alarm.
We have try to allways put it in places where it is easy to keep evryone safe, it's a tough thing if you cannot get a location like that.
A while back we were going to tournaments at a shop that was perfectly nice and nestled between some other (closed by that time) shops, but it was next to more of an industrial area that was very dark, and that was where the parking was. So these tournaments would start after it was already dark, and they would end very late, and I'd be walking back to the car through these very dark areas with intermittent lighting and with groups of strange men wandering around. I mean, they were probably all there for wholly legitimate reasons and everything but it's still the sort of place everyone tells you you'll get murdered at, that time of night.
They moved and are in a somewhat safer-feeling place now, but so many stores are in these shopping strips that look really shady at the best of times, presumably because that's where the cheaper rent is. I wonder how much that has to do with it?
One of the nice things about some of the Games Workshop stores before was that they were in nice shopping centres. I think most of them have moved to shopping strips now.
Wow, this conversation is really weird to me. I got into GW through my female friend and my (male) husband, Flo from GW Bruxelles and Dan from GW Aylesbury who was both great to a newbie.
I play IG and Necrons in 40k and Empire and Orks & Goblins in WHFB. I do currently play Sisters in Mordheim, but that's the only "stereotypically" female bunch I play.
I've never really known guys to be particularly offensive - or smelly - since the mid-90s and to me it seems just as offensive to say all male gamers smell as it is to say that all female gamers are there to show off. IMO obviously.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
Did she want to play minions or mercs? I'm drawing a blank as to what other factions don't have cool female casters in them.
I imagine most women give about as much of a gak about boob-plate and skimpy outfits as men do about Rambo-esque dudes running around battlefields shirtless, meaning, they generally don't. Wish fulfillment is wish fulfillment, and women fantasize about being fit, attractive and ass-kicky as much as we do.
The reason why there aren't very many female 40K players is the same reason there aren't very many female Starcraft players, or female fighting game players; it's because society tells us that boys and girls like different things. Violence, strategy and competition are things boys like, girls not-so-much. That's what society tells us, so the result is that wargaming falls into a category that appeals almost strictly to males. -shrug- Until gender roles blur together more (something that's already happening), you will never see 40K or any other wargame get a heavy female player base.
Regarding 40K fluff and "sexism", I wouldn't say 40K is sexist. It suffers from not having a whole lot of females in it to begin with, but almost every single woman that is in it is extremely competent. There just needs to be more of them. I agree with that. The Imperial Guard codex has six special characters in it- they couldn't make at least one of them a woman? Unacceptable. One is just the bare minimum. The Eldar have one female SC, Jain-Zar, but even that is barely acceptable in a codex that has eight special characters in it.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
The setting is not particularly sexist (though it is in some cases, and stupidly so), but the model range definitely is. When it comes to the IG, which is the army that should have the most variation (apart from the mutated horrors of Chaos), we're instead stuck with 99% male soldiers in four outfits... and this for an army that explicitly states is raised from nearly every planet in the Imperium, each with its own customs, uniforms, weapons and traditions.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Did you two learn nothing from the Chess article? Chess isn't sexist and women still don't like chess.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.
Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.
Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.
Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!
Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.
Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.
Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.
Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.
Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.
Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!
Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.
Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.
Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.
I disagree with the bolded part, but that is only because of fluff reasoning. Besides that I agree that it would be nice to have a more balanced range of characters, but something I'm afraid of is what the, for lack of a better term, creeps would do. I have seen one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women, worst part was that apparently he was very good modeling. Most of the people, myself included, felt very uncomfortable with the army, thankfully he stopped coming eventually.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Let's see the armies that could have more/any female characters.
Necrons: Necron Phaerakhs and Overladies are canonical, and would be easy to model. Hell, the Maynarkh Dynasty's mother of oblivion is definitely someone worth giving a model! And if Kutlakh is substantially lower than her on the food chain and she had the adamantium ovaries to stare down and kill a C'tan, I'm betting she's one hell of a mean customer.
Imperial guard: In the grim darkness of the far future, recruitment policies do not discriminate on gender lines. Female Generals, Commissars, Psykers, Priestesses, or simply supremely badass soldiers please.
Eldar: Jain Zar is the only female special character in the faction that is perhaps most egalitarian with regards to gender. Why? Fix this. Make the next revealed Phoenix Lord Female, give us female farseers or spiritseers or autarchs. Seriously, Relic is doing a better job with this!
Inquisition: More female inquisitors/henchmen please.
Dark Eldar: We have Lady Malys and Lelith...and that's it. And given GW's "anyone without a model goes" policy I'm worried about Malys. Shouldn't be too hard to add more.
Chaos Daemons: Psst, GW, Slaanesh needs a named Greater Daemon. Maybe a Daemon Princess too while you're at it.
I disagree with the bolded part, but that is only because of fluff reasoning. Besides that I agree that it would be nice to have a more balanced range of characters, but something I'm afraid of is what the, for lack of a better term, creeps would do. I have seen one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women, worst part was that apparently he was very good modeling. Most of the people, myself included, felt very uncomfortable with the army, thankfully he stopped coming eventually.
Creepers gonna creep.
Not much you can do about them but ignore them and not touch the things their goo encrusted hands have.
I find in 40k what few female players I see tend to be there to show their painted army or have a guy who plays.
I have met 3 that had one thing in common: mind like steel trap for odds and numbers, pretty much there to crush guys by outsmarting them and watching them squirm... I think I was in love each time (out of platonic respect... of course...)
I see far more women playing Magic the Gathering by a landslide.
My wife liked painting daemons like the greater daemon of Khorn, I thought there was hope.
She had watched a few games and said "it was like watching paint dry".
I found the only way I could get her to play is scenario based kill team play.
As pointed out, "more female inquisitor models please!" she liked the Gregor Eisenhorn stories and with a little more going on than "kill them all!".
She liked the interesting variety of roles all with women that kicked butt.
I too have been conscripted to sculpt / kit-bash / mod all kinds of female characters to add to these kill teams.
The "untouchable" unrequited love interest for Eisenhorn became a favorite to blunt the various psychic villains fielded.
I think the armor with the built-in metal bra is fine with her, it is the "metal bikini" with little else that gets her a bit peeved (i.e. Red Sonja).
She seems to think you are either armored appropriately or are an agile professional who does not need these things.
It just seems that it needs to look cool, the look of the movie "Underworld" is a good comparator, a story is needed with rewards as goals and it needs to have quick interaction: the "I move, you move" needs to be short or reworked if you are to keep attention. X-wing worked out much better for that fact alone.
I would like to see more women gaming in general BUT I think the environment as much as the game determines this.
A clean, well lit store with some style to it other than covered in posters would go a long way.
Healthy snacks, stocking at least some diet pop/soda of some kind at the very least.
Going out is a social event for them and by not making it comfortable they will find other things to do.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
Did she want to play minions or mercs? I'm drawing a blank as to what other factions don't have cool female casters in them.
She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
It's not a male/female thing with getting bored with how 40K plays. With some armies, a single turn can be forty-five minutes (or more) of moving, dice-rolling, and what-not. Shoot, I get bored if a single player's turn takes more than twenty minutes, that's why I prefer lower-points games, action happens faster and often more decisively.
one gamer with an army of slaneshi demons that had been modeled to look like nude women
You sure those weren't just old-edition Daemonettes?
Because those were basically nude women (with the book-standard-Mark-of-Slaanesh single breast) with crab-claws.
Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Creepers. Vice, Pleasure and Perversion.
Trust me I would have preferred it if they were the old edition daemonettes, no claws but they were colored in a way to a. . ah. . ahem accentuate certain areas even GW wouldn't model. I'm just glad he didn't do the same to his demon prince(ss?), although I think the store would have kicked him out if he had.
It's because while gw May cater to all audiences the community has unfortunately bot grown up to follow this viewpoint. I know of female players at ny local store. In fact one of them is probably the only honorable player of both tau and eldar I've ever met (shocker I know). And their should be more, the unfortunate problem is that while some of us pretend they are adults they haven't grown up at all. This probably explains why they are still single and being rude and shovenistic around them.
I am an even rarer breed of mwg in that I am also gay. If someone were to ever badmouth my SO at the gw store if probably go straight to the store owner about it and start something. Such an attitude is unacceptable, immature, offensive, and unsportsmanlike.
ionusx wrote: It's because while gw May cater to all audiences the community has unfortunately bot grown up to follow this viewpoint. I know of female players at ny local store. In fact one of them is probably the only honorable player of both tau and eldar I've ever met (shocker I know). And their should be more, the unfortunate problem is that while some of us pretend they are adults they haven't grown up at all. This probably explains why they are still single and being rude and shovenistic around them.
I am an even rarer breed of mwg in that I am also gay. If someone were to ever badmouth my SO at the gw store if probably go straight to the store owner about it and start something. Such an attitude is unacceptable, immature, offensive, and unsportsmanlike.
This is a problem that is present in all sorts of fandoms, even the ones that you'd expect to be more... accepting. Shoot, I'm sure everyone has heard of the 12-year-old homophobic racists playing Modern Warfare or Call of Duty, but the same sorts of people show up at anime conventions, comic-cons, and, perhaps most surprisingly, Star Trek conventions. I *really* don't understand why there's so many chauvinists at such places, considering that Star Trek has *always* had a huge base of female fans (anecdotal evidence, certainly, but my mother, my aunt, and their female friends have been fans of Star Trek since the original television show aired). And this for a show that went out of its way to exhibit diversity and tolerance.
The girl 40k players at our store aren't as good as the male players so they will quit after hardly ever winning. They tend to like to paint more than work out strategy.
I almost always win so they stuck me w/ the Dark Elf female player who had never won. I asked her if she minded me making her list. She didn't and told she just wanted to win once.
Was my 1st time looking at the Dark Eldar but I stuck as many Dark Lances as I could get in her army. We wrecked them didn't even lose a unit. Now she is a lot more excited to play and confers with me often about what to include.
My wife is not a big fan of 40k, doesn't help that the employee at the FLGS is creepy and flirty. My buddies wife also gets the creepy attention from this clown.
There is a nerdy, yet quite attractive young lady who likes to play Star Wars there. Not show how she's treated.
I would say the atmosphere is the turn off. These nerdy guys like to talk tough and act cool but say the dumbest things around females. It just comes down to the majority of the player base doesn't know how to act around women.
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Mythra wrote: The girl 40k players at our store aren't as good as the male players so they will quit after hardly ever winning. They tend to like to paint more than work out strategy.
I almost always win so they stuck me w/ the Dark Elf female player who had never won. I asked her if she minded me making her list. She didn't and told she just wanted to win once.
Was my 1st time looking at the Dark Eldar but I stuck as many Dark Lances as I could get in her army. We wrecked them didn't even lose a unit. Now she is a lot more excited to play and confers with me often about what to include.
Good on you. Male or female. If I played against someone who was very knew I would try to give advice and also explain my strategy. I think it helps develop the players. Most of the time people just wanna crush their opponent.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
This. Very this.
My brother's wife only plays Vampire Counts in fantasy because they have the coolest females.
She was looking through Warmachine but her favorite faction didn't have a cool female caster so she didn't jump in.
As a male I'm getting sick of sausagefest 40k.
But what GW gives us either look like transvestites or are overly sexualized. (Hint, bare midriffs are a really bad idea on the battlefield.)
Did you two learn nothing from the Chess article? Chess isn't sexist and women still don't like chess.
It's not that simple though. People aren't that simple. As mentioned before, human society does reinforce what boys and girls like. It doesn't matter how hard you try to avoid it even with your own children, it will be conditioned to some extent. TV, school, toys, other friends. It all will influence them in some way unless you monitor them as Big Brother does which, no offense I would never forgive my parent for being so overbearing. Especially since I'd feel like a scientific experiment. Then there's the community around a game and the game itself which already isn't for everybody and the stereotype of smelly dungeon crawler existed for a reason . And, of course, you get to the game itself. Now, I honestly don't think it's really this misogynistic game or anything. I'd like there to be female models but that's more because I never really got fielding an army of IG that were all male. Whilst it's not perfect, I just want to get Scintillan or DKoK that way I can put helmets on everybody. There I can have my balanced regiment
Oh and I'm not saying that it's quite possible that biology has some influence on our preferences. I'd be very surprised if it didn't have something to do with our predilections but I'd also argue it doesn't necessarily overrule everything else. Then again I'm some dolt who got along with his sister and we played Barbie/Polly Pocket with Pokemon in lego houses, played fighter games and sims together, and once used a barbie/doll house where we asked our mom to cut out red foam to be fire, placed it on the winddows and brought in rescue hero toys to save the barbies from their doom and we played on both sides (man childhood is odd)
This made my day. Thank you. I like the discussion this has stirred. Personally, I'm going to ask my wife and see what her reason besides 'cost'. She didn't mind painting the figures but sometimes when I explain to her how it works, I can see her eyes rolling.
In my experience the female gamers I know are most put off by the GW stores being dirty ratholes, the gamer smell/funk, constant "rape jokes" from teenagers and grown men alike, and being stared at like they are the only pair of boobs on the planet.
There's a different store across town that offers a much cleaner and nicer storefront and kicks out socially inept losers who insult females, and surprise there's about a 30%-40% female attendance for several of the game nights.
It has nothing to do with the models but rather in how they are being treated, if they don't feel like they are being respected why on earth would they stick around?
If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either. People go where they feel they are respected and accepted, the majority of guys at most wargaming events and stores aren't even close to respectful towards women.
I was in a game of Zombicide last weekend with 5 female players, it was great. The reason they were there is because they were being treated like people and gamers, not as sweater stuffer eye candy and rape joke material.
In the last 7-8 years of being at the local bunker I think I've seen maybe 5 women in total so much as enter the store of their own free will. (Excluding of mom's picking up their snot nosed kids from the doorway, and even those moms won't venture more than 3ft inside). It's all about the atmosphere that the store presents and maintains.
BlaxicanX wrote: I imagine most women give about as much of a gak about boob-plate and skimpy outfits as men do about Rambo-esque dudes running around battlefields shirtless, meaning, they generally don't. Wish fulfillment is wish fulfillment, and women fantasize about being fit, attractive and ass-kicky as much as we do.
The reason why there aren't very many female 40K players is the same reason there aren't very many female Starcraft players, or female fighting game players; it's because society tells us that boys and girls like different things. Violence, strategy and competition are things boys like, girls not-so-much. That's what society tells us, so the result is that wargaming falls into a category that appeals almost strictly to males. -shrug- Until gender roles blur together more (something that's already happening), you will never see 40K or any other wargame get a heavy female player base.
Yeah. Darn that society, for tricking biology into implementing sexual dimorphism.
BlaxicanX wrote: > Implying gender preferences for wargames is influenced by neurological differences between men and women.
Nah.
Yeah. Men and women would not have identical pastime preferences in this ideal world where "society" hadn't corrupted everybody. The idea that men and women are actually the same, it's just that we've imposed different ideals onto them? That's ludicrous.
I do believe there are differences between men and women just based on genetics. Back when humans were still evolving it was males role to protect the females, and by protect I mean get eaten by whatever nasty thing was hungry, while the females ran away. You can still see that in play now with men tending to be bulkier and easier to gain muscle, while women are smarter, more resistant to disease, and have better reactions. And personally I think the concept of everyone being equal is a fallacy, we are very different from one another. Now does that mean that one is better than the other? No, of course not (although if I had to pick one I would say females are better) just merely different. One thing that has been repeated through out this thread is that people need to treat female gamers as if they are just gamers, and I agree with that sentiment completely. I think one of the problems with not only our culture but every culture is that people are treated different based on their gender.
BlaxicanX wrote: > Implying gender preferences for wargames is influenced by neurological differences between men and women.
Nah.
Yeah. Men and women would not have identical pastime preferences in this ideal world where "society" hadn't corrupted everybody. The idea that men and women are actually the same, it's just that we've imposed different ideals onto them? That's ludicrous.
I don't think she quite means that. I myself think that, to a certain extent, being male or female does influences one's interests on a biological level in a general manner (exceptions always exist). That said, one could easily argue that the difference between men and women in terms of pastimes isn't quite what we think it is. Nothing is ever really that simple. Both nature and nurture, in my opinion, influence us to varying extents. For example, there is TVs, friends, and more that all reinforce our inclinations as well. Then there are the communities around games that, in general nerd fashion, are... intriguing and often volatile. From raging on the slightest retcon or inaccuracy to being smelly And, whilst I've never seen it around me, I've heard tales from friends of places they've been to where girls will be creeped on. Doesn't help many nerds aren't the best at being social Will genetics, including male and female, still influence things and provide general preferences on both sides of the demographic? Most certainly but if you changed these two factors, social influence and communities, I don't think the disparity would be quite so good.
Bear with me, this is going to be a LONG post. Female here, and I brought my fiance into the hobby. I mainly play 40k, and I'm on the verge of starting fantasy. Our local GW has 5-7 women (including myself) involved in the hobby on a regular basis. Only about four of us actually play the game. The others mainly paint and collect or use the minis for other games like D&D. We have a couple other stores in the area that also run wargaming along with other board games and CCG's, but I don't play there, so I don't know what the wargaming atmosphere's like. (I do not work for GW, nor does my fiance.)
I'm not going to quote everybody because there are a ton of posts and that would be an absolute mess.
Gender role issues: It's been scientifically proven that male brains are better with math and spatial distances, while female brains are better with languages and fine motor skills at different ages and such. That does not mean one is smarter than the other, just processing differently.
You really can't run a bias free study on toys with kids for trucks and dolls. Kids are affected by parents, tv, other kids, advertising, everything around them. You can try and go as bias free as you can, but it does creep in.
General Gaming Atmosphere: Our local store is actually free of the general "NO GURLS ALLOWED" attitude, and it would be quickly put to a stop if that sort of thing got started. Not everybody's going to get the same sort of experience. Occasionally you get people who aren't going to hit the hygiene mark. Such is geek culture, unfortunately.
I'm sure the rent is cheaper in the dying strip malls, and since GW is a one man store policy, I guess it's easier for them to find the right size store for one person to run it. It's also less foot traffic, and since a GW store manager can't advertise, it sucks for them.
As for getting women into the hobby, let's talk about the attitude: For female geeks, with "The rape jokes"...etc...there's a point where it doesn't bother you, and there's a point where it gets out of hand. As a female geek (I have an engineering degree, so you get used to being 1 of like 3 females in a class of 30) you get used to that. You might have even grown up with a lot of that. I grew up with more male friends than female friends. I still have more male friends than female friends.
For other women, it's probably going to be a complete turn-off and they have no interest at all in dealing with it.
At least the local GW store has it a little easier when it comes to this because policy is "Family friendly store". That keeps a lot of talk out.
Models: I don't care, although looking at some of the "man faces" it would be nice to see some newer better female models. It would be also nice to see some more female models. As far as toy companies go, selling to girls isn't always about making things girly...when I was a kid I watched and played with He-man more than She-ra because He-man had cooler stuff.
As for 40K not being appealing to women, why not push the fantasy line? In 40k the sisters or Eldar or (for whatever weird reason) 'nids don't have to be the "girl" armies. (I do not play 'nids becuase it's cute, or some other girly reason. I play 'nids because I wanted to play something really alien looking and I come from a starcraft background...
Just Build and Painting: As for the women that just paint. One of them is the store manager's wife. She buys stuff she wants to paint, convert or build. She picks out and pays for her own stuff to build and paint, and he gets more armies to play. She's tried a couple of times to play the game, and doesn't really have the patience for it.
One of the other women is building and painting models for D&D.
We do have other people that just come into the store and just build, paint and collect models though. One of the guys in the store comes in every week, buys some LOTR stuff, and builds and paints it for a diorama. I'm sure it's going to look amazing when it's done. He has no desire to play the game.
It's still part of the hobby.
Couples: All of the women in our store are part of a couple.
As I stated before, I play with my fiance. (My fiance proposed to me during the store's big apoc game, and surprised me, btw). I have my 'nids, he has his dark eldar. We often play against each other. I brought him into the hobby. I was actually looking for miniature storage for some board games I had when I walked into the GW store at the time.
One of the other women is also a 'nids player, but she's been playing since at least 3rd ed. She and her husband both play, and they have a battleforce table at home.
I haven't seen a woman come into the store and play or paint that wasn't in a relationship. I'm not saying that couldn't happen, just that it hasn't happened. I know I've gone a little bit out of my way, sometimes when my fiance has been in the store (and it's been around new players I didn't know) to make it obvious that I was taken, so I didn't get the whole "hey, you single?" thing.
BlaxicanX wrote: > Implying gender preferences for wargames is influenced by neurological differences between men and women.
Nah.
Yeah. Men and women would not have identical pastime preferences in this ideal world where "society" hadn't corrupted everybody. The idea that men and women are actually the same, it's just that we've imposed different ideals onto them? That's ludicrous.
The notion that 40K appeals to women less than it does to men because of biological wiring is silly.
I would just like to thank everyone that participated in this discussion not only for having it but doing it in a mature, well informed manner. These type of discussions can only be good for improving our hobby and our mindset.
Taking a large parse of people and making a sweeping generalization about a part of them is silly.
My girlfriend plays video games. Lots of them.
Says painting, math, and awkward social situations really aren't her thing. Though I got her to do some painting, and even a mini game of 40k were just put up some models and played strictly the shooting phase until there was one. She admitted it was fun.. But maintains that video games are better because there is no painting, counting, or strange boys.
Edit.. she also said the likelyhood she would ever stumble into a store pickup abox and go "I want to do this" are slim. That and she can't afford it.
I'm starting to feel very glad for my flgs. I've been a mother as long as I've been a gamer and whether I've had the girls with me or not I've not had any problem. Years ago in the late 90s absolutely, and that was what put me off the hobby then, but not now.
Anyway, to give my opinion on previous points:
"Women only like painting" - I'd like to pay these women to do it for me. I hate painting and would just dip the lot in the paint pot of my husband didn't sulk.
"Women lose all the time" - I've kept a log since November and won 73% of my games since then.
"Women will only play if there are female models" - well yes my IG does include female models. It also includes rogue trader models, steel legionnaires, last chancers, a tallarn and two mordians - I just like that guard has such a range, makes them more human. My necrons, unsurprisingly, have no female models.
There are barriers to get through as a female gamer - my mum strongly disapproves, for example - but it would probably help ifwe could all treat players like pplayers no matter what that look like.
Psienesis wrote: It's not a male/female thing with getting bored with how 40K plays. With some armies, a single turn can be forty-five minutes (or more) of moving, dice-rolling, and what-not. Shoot, I get bored if a single player's turn takes more than twenty minutes, that's why I prefer lower-points games, action happens faster and often more decisively.
This needs to be emphasized. 40k's IGOUGO system and ridiculous complexity are pretty much designed to drive away anyone who isn't absolutely dedicated to the game. If you're a woman who's already going against social pressure just by being interested in traditionally "male" hobbies are you really going to have enough motivation left to push through those obstacles and get to a point where you can enjoy the game? In the case of my GF that's exactly how it worked, she thinks my display shelf full of models is nice, but had no interest in trying a second game just because it's too much work to learn.
BlaxicanX wrote: The notion that 40K appeals to women less than it does to men because of biological wiring is silly.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
The people who subscribe to the, "Society imposes gender roles, that's why X and not Y happens," stuff like to point out that once the stigma with video gaming disappeared, women poured in in vast numbers. And it's true. They did. Depending on how you select your numbers, they make up over half the video game-playing populace today.
But there are very clear genre delineations in that. MMOs, RPGs, so-called 'casual' games? Women in spades. Simulators, sports games, (and, most germane to this discussion) war-oriented strategy games? Very few women. Gaming companies have done research on this, and it's not exactly a secret that different aspects of gaming appeal to the genders differently. There's not really any getting around that.
Seaward wrote: But there are very clear genre delineations in that. MMOs, RPGs, so-called 'casual' games? Women in spades. Simulators, sports games, (and, most germane to this discussion) war-oriented strategy games? Very few women. Gaming companies have done research on this, and it's not exactly a secret that different aspects of gaming appeal to the genders differently. There's not really any getting around that.
But how much of that is the game itself, compared to the community of those games? MMOs are an easily accessible genre (even for new players with little previous gaming experience) that generally has smaller guilds/etc that can cater to a particular interest and no real need to play with anyone outside of your group. So if a group gets a reputation for not being a hostile environment for women then it's easy for them to get into that game. Compare that to other genres: simulation games have tiny dedicated communities and difficult learning curves, FPS and RTS games tend to emphasize random matchmaking and have communities full of abusive s that you can't easily avoid, and sports games tend to be played offline in male-dominated groups as part of a "guy thing".
And note that this isn't an entirely gender-based thing: the simulation genre is a tiny niche market that most male gamers have no interest in, while the wargame genre (other than Starcraft, which is more of a clicks per second test) is hardly a thriving one.
Psienesis wrote: It's not a male/female thing with getting bored with how 40K plays. With some armies, a single turn can be forty-five minutes (or more) of moving, dice-rolling, and what-not. Shoot, I get bored if a single player's turn takes more than twenty minutes, that's why I prefer lower-points games, action happens faster and often more decisively.
This needs to be emphasized. 40k's IGOUGO system and ridiculous complexity are pretty much designed to drive away anyone who isn't absolutely dedicated to the game. If you're a woman who's already going against social pressure just by being interested in traditionally "male" hobbies are you really going to have enough motivation left to push through those obstacles and get to a point where you can enjoy the game? In the case of my GF that's exactly how it worked, she thinks my display shelf full of models is nice, but had no interest in trying a second game just because it's too much work to learn.
I would also say that due to the game length 40k can be realy tireing simply due to how long it can take bent over the table on tables that can be built a little bit high than optimal for likly shorter avg of players.
I know every time I play my deamons I am much less comfortable and sore after games than I am with my eldar, leading to the game becoming far more grumpy inducing.
In response to gaming in the last few years there was the tekken X streatfighter tournament where a female player was harassed nearly consistantly until she quit by her team captan, at which point thousands of men come out of the internet in his defence, sexism and harrasment of female players is just part of the game to them. That's realy an enviroment you would consider inviting and easy for players to get into ?
Would men be happy with there wives, girlfriends or daughters going into that sort of enviroment.
The gaming industry still has a long way to go in some genres, fighting games like dead or alive advertise there breast physics and the sexuality of minors. Still a long way to go
Also, even if there is a gender difference in which aspects of gaming are appealing that does NOT mean that it's the result of inherent gender differences instead of social pressure. For example, the often-cited difference is competitive vs. cooperative play: women prefer cooperative games like RPGs, men prefer competitive games like FPSs. But there's a very obvious social factor here to consider. Women spend their whole lives being told that they favor cooperation over competition, and face criticism if they're "too aggressive". So is it really any surprise that it's hard to overcome that and embrace the hardcore competitive attitude required to be successful at certain games, and games that don't require such a dramatic change of attitude are more appealing?
Peregrine wrote: But how much of that is the game itself, compared to the community of those games?
Given the trends hold true in singleplayer games, I dunno if the community can be explained away as the answer.
And note that this isn't an entirely gender-based thing: the simulation genre is a tiny niche market that most male gamers have no interest in, while the wargame genre (other than Starcraft, which is more of a clicks per second test) is hardly a thriving one.
Really? Plenty of wargames get released. Everything from Civ to Total War. Many of them seem to do alright. They're not hitting COD sales (again, a male-dominated market), but not much is.
One thing I genuinely do not get in all of this is the seemingly urgent need by some guys to make excuses for why women aren't into the same things they're into. Everything from the, "Please, please get rid of sausagefest 40K," sentiment expressed earlier in the thread to the argument that women would absolutely be into World War II naval combat simulations if only it weren't for The Man keeping them down in traditional gender roles.
Why doesn't this happen in reverse? Why aren't men constantly being told they'd totally dig romance novels if only their parents had raised them right?
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Peregrine wrote: Also, even if there is a gender difference in which aspects of gaming are appealing that does NOT mean that it's the result of inherent gender differences instead of social pressure. For example, the often-cited difference is competitive vs. cooperative play: women prefer cooperative games like RPGs, men prefer competitive games like FPSs. But there's a very obvious social factor here to consider. Women spend their whole lives being told that they favor cooperation over competition, and face criticism if they're "too aggressive". So is it really any surprise that it's hard to overcome that and embrace the hardcore competitive attitude required to be successful at certain games, and games that don't require such a dramatic change of attitude are more appealing?
There's also an obvious evolutionary factor. Cooperation-oriented females and competition-oriented males aren't exactly unique to humanity.
Ultimately, it's something that's not going to get firmly resolved until we raise some test kids in absolute isolation from society. My bet? The gender with more testosterone will unsurprisingly prove to be the competitive one even without the patriarchy around to tell them to be.
Part of why I thought it was interesting that it was suggested more girls play chess at a young age and then stop is that could indicate it's not an innate difference but that it's caused by the immense pressure to conform as you age.
The biggest problem when you talk about "men are better at X, women are better at Y" is in basically 100% of those studies the difference between the genders is utterly dwarfed by the variance between individuals. We find that sometimes on the mean there is a difference, but that your gender matters a lot less than who you are. That's why the disparity is eyebrow-raising and suggests there's more to it. Maybe in an ideal world there would be more men wargaming than women, but there's nothing to suggest the disparity should be as large as it is today.
Seaward wrote: Given the trends hold true in singleplayer games, I dunno if the community can be explained away as the answer.
Is the single-player market really even around anymore? I mean, I know the latest Call of Battlefield games have a token hour or two of single player, but can you really call those single-player games when it's just an entertaining side bit to the multiplayer core? How many dedicated single-player games are there these days?
Really? Plenty of wargames get released. Everything from Civ to Total War. Many of them seem to do alright. They're not hitting COD sales (again, a male-dominated market), but not much is.
That's why I said "not thriving", not "dead". It's like with 40k, you can talk about reasons why women aren't interested, but the are also a lot of men who aren't interested either. It's not exactly surprising that the genres of games that are having the most success outside their "traditional" market are genres that are very successful overall.
One thing I genuinely do not get in all of this is the seemingly urgent need by some guys to make excuses for why women aren't into the same things they're into. Everything from the, "Please, please get rid of sausagefest 40K," sentiment expressed earlier in the thread to the argument that women would absolutely be into World War II naval combat simulations if only it weren't for The Man keeping them down in traditional gender roles.
That "need" exists for two reasons:
1) Many of the things being criticized are things where women are actively driven away, not just coincidentally not interested in something. It's entirely fair and appropriate to point out issues like the bad behavior of a lot of 40k players, or the near-complete (and inexcusable from a fluff perspective) absence of female characters. Even if the gender ratio in wargaming is never going to come anywhere near 50/50 it shouldn't be very controversial to suggest that it's a lot more uneven then it would be if everyone who was potentially interested in the game was actually able to play and enjoy it.
2) Bad arguments about inherent gender differences need to be disputed because they're simply wrong. It's like asking why people feel the need to complain when someone says 1+1=5. If you make claims about inherent differences and ignore obvious social effects then yes, you're going to get people objecting to that.
Why doesn't this happen in reverse? Why aren't men constantly being told they'd totally dig romance novels if only their parents had raised them right?
Actually I suspect a lot more men would be interested in romance novels if they weren't told how much they hate them as soon as they started reading, and likely to be mocked as "not a real man" if they dare to admit interest. The fact that most romance novels are written from a female point of view might make it harder to relate to them, but in this hypothetical world I would expect to see a genre of male-point-of-view novels aimed at men.
Now, if you want to know why this isn't a priority, it's simple: men have a lot more freedom to choose their hobbies right now, so there's not a whole lot of motivation to push for more options.
Peregrine wrote: Is the single-player market really even around anymore? I mean, I know the latest Call of Battlefield games have a token hour or two of single player, but can you really call those single-player games when it's just an entertaining side bit to the multiplayer core? How many dedicated single-player games are there these days?
If you look exclusively at shooters, not many.
If you broaden genres a bit, though? Quite a few.
That's why I said "not thriving", not "dead". It's like with 40k, you can talk about reasons why women aren't interested, but the are also a lot of men who aren't interested either.
But of the people who do play, it's predominantly men. I guess I don't really get what you're saying here.
It's not exactly surprising that the genres of games that are having the most success outside their "traditional" market are genres that are very successful overall.
Like CoD? I dunno. The vast majority of its market remains men.
That "need" exists for two reasons:
1) Many of the things being criticized are things where women are actively driven away, not just coincidentally not interested in something. It's entirely fair and appropriate to point out issues like the bad behavior of a lot of 40k players, or the near-complete (and inexcusable from a fluff perspective) absence of female characters. Even if the gender ratio in wargaming is never going to come anywhere near 50/50 it shouldn't be very controversial to suggest that it's a lot more uneven then it would be if everyone who was potentially interested in the game was actually able to play and enjoy it.
Controversial? No. Unsupportable? Certainly.
2) Bad arguments about inherent gender differences need to be disputed because they're simply wrong. It's like asking why people feel the need to complain when someone says 1+1=5. If you make claims about inherent differences and ignore obvious social effects then yes, you're going to get people objecting to that.
Oddly, I feel the same way about "social effects." I mean, sexual dimorphism isn't exactly a controversial concept. It very much exists. I suppose we can pretend like it doesn't influence anything, but I'm not sure I see the point in that.
Actually I suspect a lot more men would be interested in romance novels if they weren't told how much they hate them as soon as they started reading, and likely to be mocked as "not a real man" if they dare to admit interest.
I honestly cannot recall ever hearing that. I'm pretty sure I'm uninterested in the crap my fiancee reads because it's dreadfully uninteresting, not because society told me I didn't like it. Which is, incidentally, exactly how she feels about 40K. Given her other 'masculine' interests, including guns, hockey, and hot naked chicks, I somewhat doubt what society would think of her rolling wargaming dice would have had much influence there, either.
Seaward wrote: But of the people who do play, it's predominantly men. I guess I don't really get what you're saying here.
What I'm saying is that those genres of games, like 40k, have a lot of reasons that people in general aren't interested in them. Most men won't be interested because of those reasons, while women will share those same reasons and start from a position where even playing a game at all is already going against social conventions. When it takes some effort just to play any game which is a more appealing one: the MMO that is easy to get into and has lots of players, or the RTS/simulation/etc with a huge learning curve and a community consisting of a forum or two in some dusty old corner of the internet? Like in 40k what you get is a community where only the absolute most determined fanatics get through the obstacles and start playing, and that's almost inevitably going to be a male-dominated group since they have just a slightly smaller number of obstacles to deal with.
Like CoD? I dunno. The vast majority of its market remains men.
But again, consider why it remains male-dominated. It's an online game that emphasizes competitive games with random strangers and has a community with a truly awful reputation. Set aside gaming preferences and ask yourself this: if you were a woman and knew that playing CoD would mean spending hours listening to some 15 year old's obscene sexist rants would you be interested in playing? Probably not.
Oddly, I feel the same way about "social effects." I mean, sexual dimorphism isn't exactly a controversial concept. It very much exists. I suppose we can pretend like it doesn't influence anything, but I'm not sure I see the point in that.
Well, it exists as long as you love bad evolutionary psychology and other pseudoscience. The much more likely scenario is that any inherent gender differences are less significant than the variation between individuals, and most of the "inherent" differences are better explained by social factors. The fact that wargaming, in an ideal sexism-free world, might be 60/40 in favor of men doesn't mean that we should pretend that the current 99/1 ratio represents inherent attributes rather than problems in the community and society as a whole.
I honestly cannot recall ever hearing that.
Really? Because I thought that's a pretty obvious stereotype, even if nobody explicitly said "if you like romance novels I'm going to laugh at you".
I'm pretty sure I'm uninterested in the crap my fiancee reads because it's dreadfully uninteresting, not because society told me I didn't like it. Which is, incidentally, exactly how she feels about 40K. Given her other 'masculine' interests, including guns, hockey, and hot naked chicks, I somewhat doubt what society would think of her rolling wargaming dice would have had much influence there, either.
Yes, but that's not the point. Nobody is claiming that every individual woman would be interested in 40k if only the community was less offensive. Obviously that's not true, just like it's not true that every man would have even the slightest interest in the hobby. There are plenty of men who like guns, hockey, and hot naked chicks, but find the thought of playing 40k about as appealing as watching paint dry. And there's nothing wrong with that. Individuals are free to have any preferences they want. The problem is when you look at larger groups it's very difficult to imagine that the current gender ratio is entirely the result of legitimate preferences, especially when there are obvious things that would drive potential female players away from the game even if they would otherwise be interested.
Peregrine wrote: But again, consider why it remains male-dominated. It's an online game that emphasizes competitive games with random strangers and has a community with a truly awful reputation. Set aside gaming preferences and ask yourself this: if you were a woman and knew that playing CoD would mean spending hours listening to some 15 year old's obscene sexist rants would you be interested in playing? Probably not.
And why not, exactly? Is that somehow more annoying than hearing said 15 year-old scream about how he anally violated me and suggesting I involve myself in frequent sexual congress with other men?
Well, it exists as long as you love bad evolutionary psychology and other pseudoscience.
Okay, wow. Either you think we're talking about different things, or...I have no idea. Sexual dimorphism is not a controversial topic. I'd start here, but failing that, I'd ask one simple question: do you believe men produce and consume more testosterone than women? If the answer is "no," you're incorrect from every possible biological standpoint. If the answer is "yes," then we've just pointed out one of many examples of sexual dimorphism in humans.
I'd go on to ask if you're aware of what testosterone does in the body and if you believe higher or lower levels of it can cause different reactions to stimuli and go from there into a deeper discussion about whether or not different hormonal and chemical levels could possibly lead to different methods for processing information, reacting to threats, etc., and from there into...well, does it really matter? Let's be honest: it wouldn't matter, because it's not just about the facts, it's about the politics, and you hate my political stance and I hate yours, so we might as well just knock this off and keep the OT stuff down in OT.
Peregrine wrote: especially when there are obvious things that would drive potential female players away from the game even if they would otherwise be interested.
While absolutely true, we as a community do not hold all the cards to fixing the problem.
An even larger factor is the social construct among women. In many cliques, a young woman that tries her hand at plastic soldiers is going to get ridiculed by her peers, lose social standing and maybe even be ostracized.
But I mean sure, we can attempt to create an environment that doesn't so readily invite the ridicule. But no matter how awesome we become, it's still gonna be plastic men and dice.
Goldphish wrote: Too long didn't read so I'm going to assume no one mentioned the most obvious reason women do not play this hobby.
In my 15+ years of table top gaming I have noticed that the majority of players severely lack a sense of hygiene. The males tend to act rather foolishly talking in a manner which is not very inviting to the opposite sex. Honestly I have trouble half the time playing with some people because they are so disgusting. Then of course there is the fun fact that whenever a woman does enter the room half the guys act like they have never seen a woman before and the other half tries to act macho. Then the creepy staring...why would a woman want to endure that.
Exactly why my wife won't even go near the local store it stinks of unwashed bodies!! She told me she nearly threw up when she went in to get me a prezzie, and that was it for her... So thank you, you slovenly ba57ards for that! she couldn't even stay long enough to make a purchase.
However, a number of years ago after the GW shop closed for the night, we all headed to a local pub, the owner was hanging out with us and playing, he opened just for us an started pouring pints of beer, and we played 40K. A smallish crowd of beautiful ladies appeared outside the large glass windows, and wanted to come in to see what we were doing... the owner told them the pub was closed... grrrrr I missed out on my second wife that night... So they wanted to see what a bunch of dudes were doing around tables pushing toy soldiers around.
Then I observed a load of gals at a Games Day. I followed them a bit before I approached them and asked what they were doing there... Well, as a matter of fact they weren't local gals, they had travelled to check out men, and play GW games...
I know this isn’t just about ladies playing the game, but there is interest out there fellows, so make it interesting for them!! If you demo a game make it quick and simple and don’t win! Act all upset and surprised that she just kicked your buttocks at your favorite game. You never know, may just work and then she brings her girlfriends into it. Not to dumb it down but don't get complicated as with any new player is all I'm saying.
I've known about 5 females that play model wargames.
1 mainly plays malifaux and has a couple female led crews.
1 plays fantasy and has Dwarves.
1 plays Dark Eldar
1 paints stuff for her husbands 40k armies
1 plays orks in 40k and lizards in fantasy.
None of them get treated any differently than the males and the males don't usually act stupid around them.
But I would love some more females for the armies of 40k and fantasy. I would love to see some guardswomen and more female eldar.
Peregrine wrote: But again, consider why it remains male-dominated. It's an online game that emphasizes competitive games with random strangers and has a community with a truly awful reputation. Set aside gaming preferences and ask yourself this: if you were a woman and knew that playing CoD would mean spending hours listening to some 15 year old's obscene sexist rants would you be interested in playing? Probably not.
And why not, exactly? Is that somehow more annoying than hearing said 15 year-old scream about how he anally violated me and suggesting I involve myself in frequent sexual congress with other men?
Well, it exists as long as you love bad evolutionary psychology and other pseudoscience.
Okay, wow. Either you think we're talking about different things, or...I have no idea. Sexual dimorphism is not a controversial topic. I'd start here, but failing that, I'd ask one simple question: do you believe men produce and consume more testosterone than women? If the answer is "no," you're incorrect from every possible biological standpoint. If the answer is "yes," then we've just pointed out one of many examples of sexual dimorphism in humans.
I'd go on to ask if you're aware of what testosterone does in the body and if you believe higher or lower levels of it can cause different reactions to stimuli and go from there into a deeper discussion about whether or not different hormonal and chemical levels could possibly lead to different methods for processing information, reacting to threats, etc., and from there into...well, does it really matter? Let's be honest: it wouldn't matter, because it's not just about the facts, it's about the politics, and you hate my political stance and I hate yours, so we might as well just knock this off and keep the OT stuff down in OT.
Does that mean I have less testosterone if I like quite a bit of "girly" things?
Peregrine wrote: especially when there are obvious things that would drive potential female players away from the game even if they would otherwise be interested.
While absolutely true, we as a community do not hold all the cards to fixing the problem.
An even larger factor is the social construct among women. In many cliques, a young woman that tries her hand at plastic soldiers is going to get ridiculed by her peers, lose social standing and maybe even be ostracized.
But I mean sure, we can attempt to create an environment that doesn't so readily invite the ridicule. But no matter how awesome we become, it's still gonna be plastic men and dice.
The problem is an utter mess really. That's ignoring all the factors that already make the game unappealing to guys! You have the community around the game which I've heard enough tales of the unwelcoming attitude or the... overwelcoming attitude some come up with when a female appears. Then there's more societal factors. Group mentality heavily influenced by friends, how society observes it such as shows, movies, toy advertisements, advertisements. Hell there's the whole entire BOYS ONLY and GIRLS ONLY nonsense that sometimes appears. And all of that before I even have to think of talking about how genetics might influence an individual which is a pain thanks to basically everything else that happens during your life. What is because of genetics? What is because of your life experiences? Really it's hard to say we can entirely know unless we tear it down entirely and compare the differences and similarities.
[quote=Kelly502 594021 there is interest out there fellows, so make it interesting for them!! If you demo a game make it quick and simple and don’t win! Act all upset and surprised that she just kicked your buttocks at your favorite game. You never know, may just work and then she brings her girlfriends into it. Not to dumb it down but don't get complicated as with any new player is all I'm saying.
How about if you demo a game make it fun and fair and intriguing? Play in a friendly manner and people will see the fun in the game. Anyone who's only into games when they win is going to quit pretty soon anyway, and if you patronise people you always run the risk of it backlashing if you get caught.
StarTrotter wrote: Does that mean I have less testosterone if I like quite a bit of "girly" things?
Nope.
Apologies I've been on a Dark Souls stunt and all this talk of testosterone and co-operation awakened my inner "Praise the Sun" Solaris. Jolly co-operation!
Anyways, I added something to my message. No matter what we argue we just don't really know enough and sadly we don't have enough evidence either. We'd have to have somebody born, give them entirely neutral entertainment with an equal proportion of everything, limit their friendship to only individuals that also experienced this as well and let them grow up in an artificial world before then tossing them all sorts of hobbies to observe everything with everything permitting you to be male or female if not something iconic like Mario or something. Which would be completely creepy and I would doubt it would get passed
But yeah, generally speaking in these nature vs. nurture debates, it often tends to be a little from nature and a little from nurture.
Which begs the question of whether or not the nature (our biological components) informs the nurture (the 'traditional gender roles' it's become popular to rail against) and if this stuff's all been intertwined from the start.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
the sexist-stereotype that gaming is for men of any type is still fairly common these days. Its way LESS common now, as i come across girls in minecraft and various other games all the time whereas 10 years ago i was shocked to find a girl in any game. Even boardgames i had a hard time finding a girl that enjoyed any lol.
I have yet to meet a girl that plays warhammer though. I know they exist, theres a few on these forums that are usually posting often. But then again i dont live in a very 40k popular area, my FLGS is about 6 gamers lol.
I treat girl games the same as guy gamers when i do find them. I'll never be that guy that goes "Girls should never play games..." because hey i would fething love to find a girl thats into 40klol then i dont have to explain why i have ~2500USD in toy soldiers rofl. Not to mention its a lot easier to hold a conversation when you have more than one thing in common
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later
I have the same issue. I wont notice body odor or any foul odor unless it is REALLY bad, so often my house or even myself will reek and i wont notice. I will FEEL dirty before i notice i stink. I used to shower "if i had the time" but i used that excuse loosely lol as it usually meant "if i was bored" lol. And i never used deodorant before. After about a year in the military that changed because people would constantly comment on my stench. Now i take showers just because i got a minute, even though im very skinny (so no rolls for sweat to hide in) and not that physically active so i dont sweat much. I feel cleaner, but i dont even smell the deodorant when i stick it under my nose let alone my armpit lol. It kinda sucks because i honestly dont know what any type of flower smells like
I got into 40k though my (male) friends. Though I have been a hardcore RPG video game player for many years, being into anime (before the rest of the world caught up) attending many geeky events when one of my friends mentioned they were going to do a tale of X gamers to get back into it I was unsure, felt it was maybe a bit *too* geeky - there definitely is a stigma attached to playing with miniatures, though with the world becoming more accepting of LARP'ers etc....
FLGS I started going to at a later date is pretty relaxed and I don't feel uncomfortable (at least around the people I have actually played).
However I did have a bad experience a long time ago at a not so 'F'LGS, being a bit hit and miss would put people off.
As a woman who plays 40k, who knows several women who play 40k, it's simply that there's an entry barrier of false masculinity.
Even though many of the male players I know aren't the manliest of men, there's still this perception in the group that, as a woman, I'm the odd one out who doesn't quite fit... and that scares people off.
The girls I know who don't play choose so because they're simply not interested. THe ones who do don't gravitate towards any particular army - I know two female Chaos players (one Daemons, one Marines), a Tyranid/Space Wolf painter (not so much of a player), an Eldar painter (again, not so much of a player, although that's changed since she moved in with her bother), a Dark Eldar/Elf painter, a Giant Robot painter (heh) and a couple of Marine players. Oh, and me - Necrons, Sisters (and fantasy)
So, it's not really representation inside the game that's the problem. Believe it or not, straight girls seem to like stories about sexy (or at least buff) guys just as much as guys like movies with sexy ladies in them.
Of course, most telling, perhaps, is that when we get over-excited playing in our FLGS (which none of my female friends who are interested go to), the proprietor (who is an "ascended nerd") tells us to keep it down because "This is why girls don't like us." (at which point I get rather smug.)
I've noticed that the card/ board gamer group is often closer to a 70/30 male/female split which is actually pretty decent considering. Extremely rare that there isn't a single woman in my LGS on a typical open gaming day, there will usually be 3-4 and about 10 men if it's busy.
Just nowhere near that ratio with wargaming is all.
In general, I think it has never been easier for women to get into and enjoy geeky hobbies.. the dank gaming hovel full of neckbearded misogynists is mostly a myth, any half decent store owner will put a stop to that right away and most male gamers are well-groomed and polite.
GW stores are mostly creches and don't really count.
For the anecdote, I brought one friend of mine to have a demo game at my FLGS, because she seemed interested. She is Iranian and at that had only been in France for less than a year, if I am not mistaken. She had never heard of wargaming before, so she had no stereotypes about it, I guess. She did notice that she was the only girl in the shop, and mention it afterward, though. And there were not so many people there anyway. If there had been more affluence, the absence of other women would have been even more noticeable. So, I guess the lack of other girls/women playing somehow makes it harder.
Anyhow, she said she enjoyed it, but never mentioned it afterward, and I do not know if she was just being polite.
I know that it was easy to get my GF involved, she had seen 40k/fantasy models at the FLGS, liked the look of them but had no way of knowing where to even start LOOKING for information on how to play, collect or anything else... When we started going out before I even mentioned my plastic crack habit she said that the games in 'that store by my bank' looked cool but she didn't know anything about them, this gentlemen is the time you tell her you play with little plastic men.
Right now she's starting a wood elf army that is of unnervingly high quality and has played several games with my IG, each time enjoying it (despite a terrible experience with a riptide in her first game.) The store we go to is very friendly (there are several female players) and the only rating factor seems to be how nice of a person you are to be around.
I think mostly its the lack of information on gaming that makes people shy away from the hobby, regardless of gender, after all when your first impression of a game comes from a couple of dudes who give you the ultra simple version while playing a very complex looking game with handfuls of dice, a whole bunch of assorted models and a tape-measure you can see that its not "kind of like chess"...
GW (and other companies) need to advertise, they need a simplified boardgame version that is targeted at casual gamers (the Settlers of Catan crowd) that doesn't cost more then some first born children, and is advertised and marketed to a wider variety of stores, not just that places with massive Magic The Gathering posters in the window.
I think it's mostly a societal expectation thing. Girls are actively discouraged from most nerdy endeavours growing up and wargaming is no exception.
Personally I know several female full spectrum hobbyists (they play, paint, build minis and do conversions) and a few more who just paint or just play. So they are out there.
Being a nerd or having pursuits once pigeonholed as nerdy is now more along the lines of being acceptable, it's okay to be a dork or nerd these days. Look at comic con attendance rates. Look at revenues for the Marvel movies. We as a social group have been massively expanded, change in our demographics is a given as more and more diverse groups of individuals find our little niche within a niche.
As far as women being driven away from our little corner of the greater room of humanity I'd be hard pressed not to believe there aren't individuals out there that do contribute to to that sort of effect, the portrayal of females in the games and properties themselves could be an issue, but more of an issue I think is the pushback received when people ask say for reasonably dressed female minis. A lack of boob plate and chain mail bikinis which tend to dominate the various minis ranges. Finding female models in decent armor is actually difficult. That isn't to say there isn't room for cheesecake or stylistic choices, but given how irrationally angry some people get when their boat is getting rocked or their "space" is being invaded it's easy to see why some new people might feel unwelcome.
The last time I started a thread about well armored and well done female minis, besides being called a Feminazi inside of three posts, myself and some of the female posters who joined the discussion were informed several times that our hobby is a "guy" thing with the same type of petulant squawking you hear from adolescents with a "no girls allowed" treehouse.
The reason you don't find many female gamers is pretty dang simple: entrenched gender roles. Gaming* is viewed as a largely male-oriented hobby, therefore you don't find many women playing games, therefore gaming culture becomes more male centric, which in turn drives women away, which in turn makes gaming more male centric, which in turn drives women away, etc etc.
~Tim?
*by "gaming" I mean wargames, and to a lesser extent tabletop** games in general and video games.
**as an aside, the world of non-wargame tabletop games like Settlers of Catan or other designer boardgames is much more female friendly - a ratio of 1/3 women to men at conventions for those kinds of games is pretty normal, and more and more the ratio is becoming more like 50/50.
Inkubas wrote: What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?
If it weren't for (historical) wargaming, I wouldn't get that job, and wouldn't have met this beautiful archaeologist (my fiancée now). But she didn't knew anything about wargaming (especially Warhammer) apart from some pejorative clichés.
She then discovered wargaming. She really likes painting and seems to enjoy wargaming in itself, but it's mostly historicals. Not interested in WHFB, really dislikes 40k. I think she feels like the setting is somehow immature, but doesn't really want to tell me why she doesn't like these games. Whatever.
She only plays at home, with me and a couple friends... Let's say bringing her to a GW store wasn't the best idea I ever had.
I think the biggest reason there aren't more female players is because there aren't already female players. Wargaming is a really specific niche, isn't advertised, and when you go in to learn about it you are faced with a "male energy" room. The managers are male, the players are male, practically every box has assumed male characters. Only a few days ago a guy and his girlfriend came in, and both were pretty interested, but the girl less so. But when she found out about the female inclusive armies, she was much more interested.
There's also probably the assumption that all women are the stereotypical girl who likes dolls and dresses ans whatnot, when that is the complete opposite of the case. It's like being a female videogamer - they're just normal people.
Maybe if there wrre female managers, better representation of women in the game, and getting SOB back in stores would all open up a large amount of new players .
One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
I run several Slaanesh themed armies (Beastmen, CSM, Traitor Guard) and have freely used some nude minis in them. I run the previous edition metal Daemonettes (the pretty ones with the tendril hair). I freely admit that I have exposed boobies on display in some of my armies.
But that Tau mini was... OK, it was well-painted and very well sculpted. It looks good; no doubt. The creator's description of the model, however, is what made it offensive. I mean, wow. You're always running a risk with naked models in your army, but coming up with some kind of a backstory for a pimp Tau? That involves breeding programs? Seriously, I toss a few naked boobies into my armies because: Slaanesh. Also because I don't date much, but I'm sure there isn't a connection (it's not like I *only* run Slaanesh armies). I don't have backstories that involve breeding programs. The semi-clad girls clinging to my slaaneshi tanks don't have a backstory. Making one would be wierd. And super-creepy.
Wow. Great points made.
Growing up I was a bit of a punk and social outcast. I later grew up and started to treat women like people and make some awesome friends because of it. Now I'm hitting my 30s and I have a beautiful wife and I hope that our culture is breaking down gender roles. Unfortunately, I find that there are still people that haven't matured yet and its a shame. I'd love to see more female war gamers ( heck more people in general) but I'm not sure at this point if the deterrent is the state of mind from conditioning ( from both sides) or from just the atmosphere. While my wife may never consign herself to playing, I do so hope that my daughters will. And, I will personally advocate this hobby and do my part to create as much a positive environment as I can. I hope you all will too.
paulson games wrote: ...
If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either...
I actually find this to be false. Most guys will trash talk with each other after they become tight. It's a brotherly thing almost, my group would never be impolite to a newcomer but we tend to chide each other in jest.
I think that misunderstanding may be a part of the problem. Treat female gamers too differently and you can come across patronizing, treat them like one of the guys and you risk coming off as inappropriate and hostile. Most men (at least the ones I know) would be happy gaming with women, but it can be difficult to create an accommodating atmosphere. And let's face it, a lot of gamers have issues picking up subtle(or even not so subtle) social cues.
So, it's not really representation inside the game that's the problem. Believe it or not, straight girls seem to like stories about sexy (or at least buff) guys just as much as guys like movies with sexy ladies in them.
Yeah. Talking about Thor with my sister was awkward.
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
paulson games wrote: ...
If every time you went into the store and somebody made a crack about your weight, penis size, performance, or anything else that demeans you I don't think you'd frequent those stores for long either...
I actually find this to be false. Most guys will trash talk with each other after they become tight. It's a brotherly thing almost, my group would never be impolite to a newcomer but we tend to chide each other in jest.
I think that misunderstanding may be a part of the problem. Treat female gamers too differently and you can come across patronizing, treat them like one of the guys and you risk coming off as inappropriate and hostile. Most men (at least the ones I know) would be happy gaming with women, but it can be difficult to create an accommodating atmosphere. And let's face it, a lot of gamers have issues picking up subtle(or even not so subtle) social cues.
Strange. In my local (Admittedly tiny, <10 people.) meta I we trash talk each other a lot for fun because we are such good buddies. I like it, it feels relaxed and a sign of a solid friendship.
Hell, I find it easier to befriend boys than girls- once you get past the obvious issues they tend to be much more difficult to consternate.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
Spend like...one day on tumblr or pinterest.
You'll be far more enlightened with regards to women.
My fiancée loves playing Fantasy. However she hates the GW community and with excellent reason. It is in general incredibly unwelcoming to women filled with misogyny and people with little to no social skills or empathy. Playing games in a store, club or tournament are just completely out of the question so we stick to playing with our friends at home. The issue though is that it's not the majority of the community making it this way, it's just a small percentage that are like this but they are capable of single-handedly ruining your experience of the hobby.
Note: this is not true of all wargaming communities. The community around GW games seems to be the worst of the bunch with 40k being the worst of the GW games.
Psienesis wrote: It is actually true of all wargaming (and other gaming) communities. The difference is only in local groups. Some are definitely worse than others.
On the flip-side, you get things like the Dickwolves controversy from Penny Arcade.
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Something to bear in mind: teenage guys just stink, it is a hormonal thing unfortunately.
http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/what-is-smell-147185.html "Teenage boys smell peculiar due in part to the hormones they secrete in their sweat. Sweat is different smelling once a person hits puberty. They also develop more sweat glands, particularly apocrine sweat glands that are located under the arms and in the genital area. Bacteria thrive on apocrine sweat and the decaying bacteria cause the unique odor. Using an anti-bacterial body wash might help, along with daily (at least) showers. It'll get better as he matures.
So for an inclusive gaming shop, you need good air movement and outside air or at least air fresheners.
Psienesis wrote: It is actually true of all wargaming (and other gaming) communities. The difference is only in local groups. Some are definitely worse than others.
On the flip-side, you get things like the Dickwolves controversy from Penny Arcade.
Consider how global conflict is usually started, and sustained by the males of our society. The thematic emblems or war, heraldry, and patriarchs are decidedly male. It is no wonder males are drawn to the gaming aspect of it. Even modeling... when the models themselves wield double bladed battle axes or high powered firearms, the better for wreaking death and destruction, Hmmmm... could that have something to do with it? While stereotypes ignore individuals, they're generated from impressions that are not always false.
I have two daughters and one son and we've tried hard to raise them in as gender neutral a manner as possible... but at least in the cases of our kids, the differences between boys and girls is more than anatomical. I also tried getting my wife to play or model, even to try Netrunner or MtG and no dice. Her upper threshold is Dominion. I've finally come to the realization that there's different strokes for different strokes. Which is why I won't be having my nails done this Sunday during mother's day.
I can summarize quite easily why there are less females who play the game.
Both me and my girlfriend play 40k and once when we were in a store a man walked in and shouted "Sacrilege, female in the store." Whilst they may or may not have been joking the owner told him to shut up and we both get on quite well with him.
I think one of main reasons there are less female players is the players themselves rather than most things to do with the actual game.
But on another note I'm a student at university and I live with 5 other people, all of which play 40k (4 guys, 2 girls). We all own different (and multiple armies) but its nice that we all have the same interest.
Deunstephe wrote: One last comment: Guys, wash yourselves. My local GW doesn't stink but I know that there are some people there who don't wash themselves. No one likes stinky wargames.
Something to bear in mind: teenage guys just stink, it is a hormonal thing unfortunately.
http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/what-is-smell-147185.html "Teenage boys smell peculiar due in part to the hormones they secrete in their sweat. Sweat is different smelling once a person hits puberty. They also develop more sweat glands, particularly apocrine sweat glands that are located under the arms and in the genital area. Bacteria thrive on apocrine sweat and the decaying bacteria cause the unique odor. Using an anti-bacterial body wash might help, along with daily (at least) showers. It'll get better as he matures.
So for an inclusive gaming shop, you need good air movement and outside air or at least air fresheners.
It's true teenage guys stink, but still: have a wash! You'll feel better, smell better, and people won't think you're a Nurgling. Also helps to not wear the same clothes you've been wearing for a while. Far too many teenage guys do this, just remember the days from high school locker rooms!
That means more maintenance. You arent going to stink like a week-old dirty pair of underwear if you shower daily and wear deodorant unless you were REALLY sweating since your last shower, usually meaning a lot of physical work or intense heat (more than just the "im hot" feeling, more like "OMG SO HOT FETH ME" lol).
It also applies to big guys. You got nearly twice the body i do, you need to do double the maintenance man. You dont shower for a couple days and you got fat rolls you are going to STINK.
Even with my bad sense of smell, i notice when big people dont shower.
My wife paints models.
She isn't a gamer and will never be one.
She doesn't deny me my hobby (or despise it) so it's all good - besides, there are other games we can play ...
Most of the gamers in my area are male. Stinky males. There are a few girl gamers, and this is a good thing - but they are still no more than about 2% of the demographic.
There's just something about most minis games that just don't appeal to most girls/women. Some prefer the pretty minis of malifaux, many prefer card games.
Mahtamori wrote: P.s. I don't think the sexualization of females (Wych cults) or males (Catachans) in itself is a problem
Catachan are not sexualized. The day the artworks for Catachan emphasize their asses or nipples, then I will agree that they are sexualized. Until then, only BA get to be arguably sexualized.
MWHistorian wrote: She really liked Minions, but no female character. She said she wa sticking to Vampire Counts.
There is one coming IIRC. A female Gatorwoman caster. And, thanks goodness, Privateer Press remembered that reptiles are not mammals and therefore have no boobs.
About the smell/hygiene problem, have you thought of actually telling the guys that they smell bad? I am serious. Do it tactfully and friendly, but do it. I used to take a bath about, I guess, once a week. After two or three people in a row told me how I smelled bad, I started taking a shower every morning, and I bought a deodorant. I have a bad sense of smell, and I really did not realized that I was annoying people around me. Really, I feel better now that I know I am not a nuisance to people just by being around them anymore. Do it, they will thank you later .
Wait when did male nipples become sexualized? What have I missed and asses? I didn't even think they were that popular?
Spend like...one day on tumblr or pinterest.
You'll be far more enlightened with regards to women.
Late but just wanted to respond. Please I hardly can keep track of what men like in women Well I guess I've learned something.
My wife and I wanted to play for years and finally had the time, so we started together and a year later we both have huge armies.
She plays pretty much the same reason I play, she likes competitive strategy and we play well together. She also has an attachment to her army which I think is common amongst most players.
We recently started going to DZ in Glen Burnie, MD and she's delighted to finally see some females around, even if they almost 100% just paint.
I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
I've been gaming for 25+ years, and I've gamed with plenty of women, but even girls who were hardcore into RPGs and sci-fi get glassy eyed and stop paying attention as soon as dudes start talking about their armies.
I don't know, I get that equality is great and all, but sometimes I feel like some people really try to force it when its not really important. In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer? I mean, it's not like playing Warhammer is a secret gateway to the halls of power in our society. Women aren't being denied the right to play Warhammer, and its not hurting women that they don't play. So why all the fuss?
Another way of looking at is like this: Only girls care about knitting as a hobby. Almost all the chicks I know are knitters, and they get together for these things called "stitch and *****", and there are never dudes there. None of them has ever made any attempt to invite me or try to get me (or any other guy) interested in knitting. Everybody is totally cool with the reality that knitting is a chick thing.
Warhammer is a dude thing. That's not a problem that needs solving.
friendlycommissar wrote: In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer?
That depends on the reason why there are so few women playing the game. If it's genuinely the case that very few women are interested then that's fine, there's no problem with hobbies that just happen to not have a 50/50 gender split. But if it's a case of women who would be interested being driven away then yes, it matters.
The wider implications can be more worrying however. Do we say there are not as many women in charge of companies as men because "chicks are not into it"? Are we fine with science being dominated by saussage?
Or do we have to look at why there are fewer women in these fields than men and maybe do something to get things more equal?
It may be something cultural that women feel from a young age that they would not fit in certain fields and so subconciously they go somewhere else. Certainly there is not a competancy issue with males and females in any arena...
friendlycommissar wrote: In the grand scheme of things does it actually matter that girls aren't into Warhammer?
That depends on the reason why there are so few women playing the game. If it's genuinely the case that very few women are interested then that's fine, there's no problem with hobbies that just happen to not have a 50/50 gender split. But if it's a case of women who would be interested being driven away then yes, it matters.
Why? I mean, say there is some theoretical woman who would enjoy Warhammer if the guys who currently play Warhammer were, I dunno, different guys. Okay, so? Why is that important? Ok, so she doesn't like hanging out with the lads because she finds the lads to be a bunch of crass jerks. So...she goes and finds a different hobby where the people are people she gets on with. Right?
It's not a human rights issue or anything.
SilverMK2 wrote: The wider implications can be more worrying however. Do we say there are not as many women in charge of companies as men because "chicks are not into it"? Are we fine with science being dominated by saussage?
Or do we have to look at why there are fewer women in these fields than men and maybe do something to get things more equal?
Yeah, see, this is kind of my point. Warhammer is nothing at all like "the sciences" or "executive positions at major corporations." It's completely trivial.
Warhammer is just something the lads do over beers when they're hanging out being lads. If some girls feel excluded...well, why should anyone care?
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, see, this is kind of my point. Warhammer is nothing at all like "the sciences" or "executive positions at major corporations." It's completely trivial.
The issue in warhammer are an expression of the same underlying issue. That being the subtle (or not so subtle in some cases) exclusion of females compared to males.
It is the same issue seen in the knitting circles mentioned previously where more males are excluded than females.
And it is the same as science, or business, or nursing, etc where there is a significant shift in the makeup of each profession along gender lines.
It is important to diagnose why that might be and if there is something that can be done to correct it (and perhaps even if it needs correcting) rather than just shrug and say "that's life".
SilverMK2 wrote: The issue in warhammer are an expression of the same underlying issue. That being the subtle (or not so subtle in some cases) exclusion of females compared to males.
It is the same issue seen in the knitting circles mentioned previously where more males are excluded than females.
Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hang out with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
That's not really an issue with Warhammer. A world in which 50% of Warhammer players are women is not a better world. It's just a different world. There's really no point in trying to make that happen, unless you've just got some kind of ideological axe to grind with dudes hanging out and having dude time.
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
chromedog wrote: Most of the gamers in my area are male. Stinky males.
I think that's the problem here. While their amount in local communities may vary, the stereotypical "awkward, sweaty, weird nerds" often come to places such as FLGSes to get their dose of gaming, social interactions and stuff like that. Depending on how awkward/sweaty they are, their ability to scare girls away varies but we all have to admit that it's not really going to make a good impression when you bring your interested girlfriend to a place that, well, reeks with sweat and . And I think girls don't really like spending time in places like that, especially if there also happen to be any of the stereotypical trillby-wearing neckbeards with their 4chan humour that often deals in sexism.
Of course don't get me wrong, I understand those awkward guys and I don't really mind them - they have their issues with social interactions and in places like that they can be nerds and be accepted by others there, that's really great for them. That's why girls are less likely to spend time in such places, though - nerdy(not just geeky) atmosphere, various smells, awkward people that avoid or keep utterly constant eye contact.. not really the kind of men most girls like to spend time with.
chromedog wrote: There's just something about most minis games that just don't appeal to most girls/women. Some prefer the pretty minis of malifaux, many prefer card games.
That sounds like another huge problem - call me sexist but most girls aren't interested in strategy games. What I've seen among the geeky part of my female friends(because casuals don't really play anything) is that they don't like the raw, dry feel of strategy games. Women tend to favour some emotional stuff and tight-knitted plot with some possible drama that most video games simply lack, because it's not their niche, with some exceptions being Blizzard RTS games because of their heavy emphasis on plot and them being 'classics' but most other strategies simply do not provide that layer of immersion.. and neither does 40k unless you really forge the narrative for your games.. and even then wargaming feels very raw.. it's still just a toy soldier brawl. What I think would be more successful at bringing geeky women to wargaming is missions and scenarios. Let's admit it - even if we make a plot excuse for BRB-provided missions, it's still nowhere near being plot-driven and the only difference is between toy soldiers brawling on the table and toy soldiers brawling at particular spots of the table. Nor do girls seem to fancy having an army the way men do - what I've noticed is that they'd rather have a small party of pretty miniatures.
As Chromedog mentioned, Malifaux is probably closest to catering to that, especially with the ease of making up plot and scenarios in skirmish games, rather than running blocks of units and rolling dice for bazillion of shooting attacks. That's why most girls I know go for either board games(especially cooperative ones) or M:tG(pretty artworks, themed decks, M:tG players being much more mature and 'normal' here), occasionally trying skirmish games. It seems that it's just a hobby for men, as simple as that. Kinda like guns - there are a few of female gun nuts, but for vast majority it's just not their cup of tea.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hangout with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
"It is nice you want to hang out with us man... just a shame we are really only looking to hang out with guys who are the same colour as us... oh yeah, we play wargames too and its not like we actually hate dudes of other colous but mostly we are here to be colourbros with one another. Maybe you should try knitting."
However, we are still completely ignoring the fact that even without bumhats driving people out, there are still far less women who even consider wargaming, let alone who make an attempt to get into the hobby.
Is that not a question which needs asking as part of the larger study of how the genders interact?
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
I'd question the assumption that what you are calling "sexualized" is synonymous with being presented "badly." There is a strong correlation between sex and power, especially in fantasy. Most women, when they imagine themselves as being powerful, imagine themselves as also being sexy. Partially because women's empowerment and women's sexual liberation are so deeply intertwined. A woman who owns her sexuality owns herself, and a woman who owns her sexuality is sexy. Do a search for Warmachine and Hordes cosplay, and who are women cosplaying? The dark elves and the satykis raiders. The witch coven. Some of the most scantily clad, "sexualized" characters in the game. Why not Dirty Meg or the female Troll (forget her name)? Because being sexy is part of the fantasy. Seriously, if there was any real demand from women for plain, unappealing women in fantasy, someone would be selling it to them. But there isn't, pretty much like there isn't a market for selling guys the fantasy of a being a dull, fat schlub.
This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the female players in my old Pathfinder group. She was complaining about how "all" the female miniatures were sexualized. Since I knew that was nonsense, I showed her Reaper's online catalog, focusing on Julie Guthrie sculpts. The ones with the women in "realistic" armor and modest, unsexualized clothing. She dismissed them all as boring and dull, then picked out a Bobby Jackson sculpt wearing a dress with a boob window and skirt slit to the hip, which to her was "not sexualized." My takeaway for this was that these kind of complaints are mostly nonsense.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.) but that is pretty much it. Beyond that I'd rather have female absence. I can make do with my Chaos Space Marine army just fine. I generally prefer playing a female character when a deep plot is present (E.g my WoW roleplay) but when it's just carnage for fun and characters are secondary (Like in 40K) gender quickly becomes much less relevant.
Klerych wrote:That sounds like another huge problem - call me sexist but most girls aren't interested in strategy games. What I've seen among the geeky part of my female friends(because casuals don't really play anything) is that they don't like the raw, dry feel of strategy games. Women tend to favour some emotional stuff and tight-knitted plot with some possible drama that most video games simply lack, because it's not their niche, with some exceptions being Blizzard RTS games because of their heavy emphasis on plot and them being 'classics' but most other strategies simply do not provide that layer of immersion.. and neither does 40k unless you really forge the narrative for your games.. and even then wargaming feels very raw.. it's still just a toy soldier brawl. What I think would be more successful at bringing geeky women to wargaming is missions and scenarios. Let's admit it - even if we make a plot excuse for BRB-provided missions, it's still nowhere near being plot-driven and the only difference is between toy soldiers brawling on the table and toy soldiers brawling at particular spots of the table. Nor do girls seem to fancy having an army the way men do - what I've noticed is that they'd rather have a small party of pretty miniatures.
As Chromedog mentioned, Malifaux is probably closest to catering to that, especially with the ease of making up plot and scenarios in skirmish games, rather than running blocks of units and rolling dice for bazillion of shooting attacks. That's why most girls I know go for either board games(especially cooperative ones) or M:tG(pretty artworks, themed decks, M:tG players being much more mature and 'normal' here), occasionally trying skirmish games. It seems that it's just a hobby for men, as simple as that. Kinda like guns - there are a few of female gun nuts, but for vast majority it's just not their cup of tea.
Generally I think you may have hit the nail on the head here, honestly. The problem however lies in that the community is not open enough to women who do like this. Of course, there are plenty of communities that are, but likewise many that are less so.
Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hang out with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
This is illustrates the larger societal problem perfectly: many men think that women are some strange aliens that are to be treated differently (and it is okay to exclude them.) This is just bs. Why does it need to be 'male bonding' instead of hanging out with friends (of any gender)?
friendlycommissar wrote: I find the "lack of female models = lack of female players" argument pretty weak. Warmachine is infinitely better at having women represented in its armies, and I don't see any more women playing Warmachine than I do Warhammer.
That's a fun discussion topic and a question dear to my own heart. I've wondered sometimes: would I rather be ignored completely by game developers - say, a game where 100% of the characters are men with no reasoning given - or represented badly - for example, with sexualised characters? Warmachine isn't super horrible with this, but you can expect a female character to have 3-4 of the following: exposed midriff, heels (occasionally high), boob plate and related stupid-looking armour (including what looks like a metal corset), and ridiculous poses. It's like the artists used porn as their only references for how to draw women.
I'm curious how other people feel about this, partly because I still don't know how I feel about it. Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
I'd question the assumption that what you are calling "sexualized" is synonymous with being presented "badly." There is a strong correlation between sex and power, especially in fantasy. Most women, when they imagine themselves as being powerful, imagine themselves as also being sexy. Partially because women's empowerment and women's sexual liberation are so deeply intertwined. A woman who owns her sexuality owns herself, and a woman who owns her sexuality is sexy. Do a search for Warmachine and Hordes cosplay, and who are women cosplaying? The dark elves and the satykis raiders. The witch coven. Some of the most scantily clad, "sexualized" characters in the game. Why not Dirty Meg or the female Troll (forget her name)? Because being sexy is part of the fantasy. Seriously, if there was any real demand from women for plain, unappealing women in fantasy, someone would be selling it to them. But there isn't, pretty much like there isn't a market for selling guys the fantasy of a being a dull, fat schlub.
This conversation reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the female players in my old Pathfinder group. She was complaining about how "all" the female miniatures were sexualized. Since I knew that was nonsense, I showed her Reaper's online catalog, focusing on Julie Guthrie sculpts. The ones with the women in "realistic" armor and modest, unsexualized clothing. She dismissed them all as boring and dull, then picked out a Bobby Jackson sculpt wearing a dress with a boob window and skirt slit to the hip, which to her was "not sexualized." My takeaway for this was that these kind of complaints are mostly nonsense.
Most of the miniatures I was thinking about while writing that post (because they are sitting in my paint station right now) are female trolls. That's part of what's so ridiculous about it - you can't even play the "monster" faction without being subjected to metal corsets, boob plate, heels, etc.
But my post was not about what constitutes a bad portrayal. I'm sure all of us have different ideas of what constitutes a bad portrayal, and different parts of that are relevant in different contexts - most of my thought on the topic has been related to video games, not miniatures ones. My question was about the point where it becomes preferable to not be depicted at all, because not being depicted is one way to sidestep all the cultural baggage that comes with those depictions.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Do you prefer not being represented at all over being represented badly?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.) but that is pretty much it. Beyond that I'd rather have female absence. I can make do with my Chaos Space Marine army just fine. I generally prefer playing a female character when a deep plot is present (E.g my WoW roleplay) but when it's just carnage for fun and characters are secondary (Like in 40K) gender quickly becomes much less relevant.
I think that's my breakpoint roughly too. I suspect Warmachine is actually slightly past it in some regards, but in others it's fine (most of the stupid stuff is in the art, whereas their portayal in the fluff I've read is good). And yes, I'd rate it as more important in a freeform RPG than in something with pregenerated characters or lots of generic characters.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah, I just don't get it. Sometimes guys want to hangout with other guys. Sometimes chicks want to hang out with other chicks. This is not an "issue." I mean, there's a very real difference between hanging out with a group that's all the same gender and a group that's mixed gender. Totally different social dynamics. I'm willing to bet that every time a girl has been excluded from a Warhammer group, it's because the purpose of that particular group was male bonding and the gaming was sort of tangential to that.
"It is nice you want to hang out with us man... just a shame we are really only looking to hang out with guys who are the same colour as us... oh yeah, we play wargames too and its not like we actually hate dudes of other colous but mostly we are here to be colourbros with one another. Maybe you should try knitting."
Now you're being completely ridiculous. Race and gender are completely different, and to try to swap one for the other is utterly inane. You know what your very bad attempt at a damning analogy has completely forgotten?
Sex.
I'll give you an example. My last Pathfinder group exploded because one of the players brought a girl to join the group. I was against it because I knew he was inviting her to play with us because he was attracted to her and I also knew right away that she wasn't into him (and no shock, he was seriously overweight, wore coke bottle glasses and was very hairy). Now one of the other guys in the group was, to be frank, gorgeous. Dude could be a male model. Now, this didn't mean anything when it was just 5 guys in the group. But as soon as this girl joined it became a problem. Because she fawned over him, flirted with him, supported his call at every turn, and made it abundantly clear that she was totally into him and not any of the rest of us. And the guy who invited her to join? He got mad jealous. And the good looking dude who she was fawning over? He got mad uncomfortable because a) he was engaged and b) he could tell it was causing huge amounts of friction with the other players, who were getting real sick of his sudden First Amongst Equals position. I was just glad I was DMing and could hide behind my DM shield. Eventually the girl started complaining to me about the guy who invited her to join, accusing him of being sexist, of being creepy, of being gross, etc. She talked about him when he left the room and before he got to the game, and made it clear to everyone that she thought he was a loser...and everyone started treating him like a loser. So he quit the group. Then Mr. Ridiculously Gorgeous quit the group because he was tired of her flirting with him (and she had called him at home and got his fiance, which had created problems for him).
A dude of a different race joining the group wouldn't have changed the dynamic like that. When it was just us guys, nobody cared that one dude was overweight and hairy and one dude was Ridiculously Good Looking. It took a woman entering the group to make those differences suddenly relevant.
However, we are still completely ignoring the fact that even without bumhats driving people out, there are still far less women who even consider wargaming, let alone who make an attempt to get into the hobby.
Is that not a question which needs asking as part of the larger study of how the genders interact?
Not really. I mean, it's pretty obvious why that is. It's a war game. Girls don't find war as interesting as guys do, because war isn't fundamental to female identity. I mean, my generation is the first generation in...all of human history...that didn't get sent off to war in large numbers. But we're still surrounded by huge amounts of literature and media that promotes the "war makes men into boys" meme. That's why boys get into wargames, because War Is Manly. Being Good At War is Manly. Girls don't have the same drive and desire to prove their masculinity by beating other men in pointless, trivial contests.
Frankly, I think you're a lot less likely to get girls into wargames than you are to get wargames abolished as inherently bad for boys because it celebrates the whole War Is Manly thing.
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Crimson wrote: This is illustrates the larger societal problem perfectly: many men think that women are some strange aliens that are to be treated differently (and it is okay to exclude them.) This is just bs. Why does it need to be 'male bonding' instead of hanging out with friends (of any gender)?
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men. As soon as you have mixed genders in a group, you have the potential for relationship drama and all kinds of other social dynamics that some dudes (and some chicks), quite understandably, don't want to deal with.
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men.
All women do this and no man ever does it?
I'm a guy and won't tolerate certain kind of men (misogynists, for example.)
As soon as you have mixed genders in a group, you have the potential for relationship drama and all kinds of other social dynamics that some dudes (and some chicks), quite understandably, don't want to deal with.
Why this is only a problem in a mixed group? Ever heard of gay people?
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.)
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
Ashiraya wrote: Generally I think you may have hit the nail on the head here, honestly. The problem however lies in that the community is not open enough to women who do like this. Of course, there are plenty of communities that are, but likewise many that are less so.
Oh, I agree, but I also kind of understand why is it like that - those usually socially awkward nerds that make up parts of wargaming communities find comfort in a group of geeky and nerdy men.. a woman coming there strips them from that comfort. I've seen it many times as those more awkward just moved over to another table to have their little secluded circle when some people(including me) brought their girlfriends to the store. From a friendly "anything goes" group where everyone is accepted and can be as awkward as he wants it turns into a group where the socially awkward guys separate themselves from the other part and are uncomfortable, especially when they know they'll come out even more awkward when they do something in those girls' presence, stressing them. It might be different if the girl was a hoodie-wearing, nerdy 'girl next door', but if they see a hot girl, they get nervous and people have to understand that - some people have social problems and expecting them to just get over it is stupid. Of course the best thing to do would be for the girl to aknowledge their nerdiness and try to lower her social standards to the point she'd openly talk to the more akward ones or show some interest, but any kind of frown, grimace or bad look would effectively drive the nerd away.. and with the community and industry being nerd/geek centered, driving away someone like that is pretty bad.
As you said, the community isn't open enough to women who do like stuff like that, but then again women are 'invading' it and they bring a lot of change to the community, so they also should be very considerate and careful with their first impression. As it is now - women in the hobby are somewhat 'pioneers' and they have to make sure they fit in the community instead of trying to make it fit around them. More modest or geeky clothing, nice, polite look and friendly smiles instead of judgement can work wonders because nerds in their natural habitat feel threatened. Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Klerych wrote: Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Well that at least was honest: men don't like women joining their groups because then they cannot be openly sexist asshats. What a tragedy...
It depends on how badly. I can make do with World of Warcraft levels of misrepresentation (Disturbingly slim, strangely becoming more revealing when equipped by female characters, stereotypically kawaiii voice-acting.)
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
The point this stuff becomes a problem is when you start carrying the subtext that nothing a woman does matters unless she's also attractive to men (especially sexually), and that women can and should be sexualised at all times but men shouldn't (in other words, that only the male perspective matters, the female perspective is irrelevant).
Also, the idea that there's only one idea of what's attractive that everyone shares and that everyone else should want to conform to it is 1. unrealistic, 2. harmful and 3. unfortunately common.
Klerych wrote: Not to mention that most communities like sexist/racist/inappropriate jokes and a girl suddenly threatens that ecobalance as her presence, unless she proves like-minded, will change the way most people act and they will not be as relaxed as they would in exclusively manly group.
Well that at least was honest: men don't like women joining their groups because then they cannot be openly sexist asshats. What a tragedy...
Are you aware that you rather sound like a cynical douche there, mate?
I know you understand what I wrote, but deliberately decided to make a hyperbole to ridicule what I wrote and possibly even troll me, but for some reason I can't just ignore you and will elaborate on my point nonetheless.
So, let's see.. everyone likes to do stuff that is not acceptable/favourable in most communities. Be it farting, burping, telling inappropriate jokes, cursing, doing awkward stuff or saying unpopular opinions(note - despite those examples, not everything that you'd want to say in such a group has a negative connotation). See - if you have a group of friends that you've bonded with over time, there's a huge chance that your group started to accept your little quirks and/or share them. If you're well-mannered, you won't curse or say racist jokes(news flash - you don't have to be racist to find them funny or say them) in an official group such as your workplace. You probably won't do that when you meet your girlfriend's friends either because you'll want to make a good impression for her. But you can do that in group of your buddies that are likely to do same. Buddies won't mind if you scratch your balls or burp during a gaming evening and you're free to do so, because it's acceptable there. Same goes with talking about pissing out a waterfall after drinking beer or talking about funny-gross stuff. Now toss a girl in that group. Get what I'm saying? Of course now you'll say that not everyone is an animal and not every man acts like that, but most people who actually have lives like to have some time with their awesome, slowed buddies to vent out all that stiff crap they have to follow everyday.
Of course that draws a bad image of a man, but as surprising as it is, men sometimes like being lazy and not stressing themselves over what is socially acceptable, and if they can do it with their like-minded buddies, it's even better just like girls can swear, bitch and not pretend to be someone else when they're with their girlfriends.
friendlycommissar wrote: Now you're being completely ridiculous. Race and gender are completely different, and to try to swap one for the other is utterly inane.?
Race and gender have very strong ties historically. Certainly in some cultures being a woman and being a person of a certain race were seen as being "lower" than being a man. Some people of different racial groups also carry different cultural views around with them which can significantly impact upon how they interact with others of different races, sexes and cultures.
Would you say it was so ridiculous for certain races to be excluded from your gathering if culturally it was acceptable to marginalise those groups? It certainly happened one hell of a lot before it became culturally (and in some cases illegal) to discriminate against people based on race.
The point is only reinforced by your reaction to the comparison of "the good ol' boys club" "not being suitable for women" and "not being suitable for people of a different race" - you, even if you personally believe certain races should be excluded (not saying you do), feel a social pressure to publicly reject the idea while defending the culturally less serious transgression of excluding women on what can only be called the shakiest of grounds. In fact, grounds as shaky as those used to exclude blacks from being free people, from women getting the vote, or any number of other examples of cultural equality.
You know what your very bad attempt at a damning analogy has completely forgotten Sex.
No... I don't think it did. Because it does not explicitly mention sex, that does not mean that the example given was not meant as a parallel to the issue of gender.
I'll give you an example. My last Pathfinder group exploded because one of the players brought a girl to join the group. I was against it because I knew he was inviting her to play with us because he was attracted to her and I also knew right away that she wasn't into him (and no shock, he was seriously overweight, wore coke bottle glasses and was very hairy). Now one of the other guys in the group was, to be frank, gorgeous. Dude could be a male model. Now, this didn't mean anything when it was just 5 guys in the group. But as soon as this girl joined it became a problem. Because she fawned over him, flirted with him, supported his call at every turn, and made it abundantly clear that she was totally into him and not any of the rest of us. And the guy who invited her to join? He got mad jealous. And the good looking dude who she was fawning over? He got mad uncomfortable because a) he was engaged and b) he could tell it was causing huge amounts of friction with the other players, who were getting real sick of his sudden First Amongst Equals position. I was just glad I was DMing and could hide behind my DM shield. Eventually the girl started complaining to me about the guy who invited her to join, accusing him of being sexist, of being creepy, of being gross, etc. She talked about him when he left the room and before he got to the game, and made it clear to everyone that she thought he was a loser...and everyone started treating him like a loser. So he quit the group. Then Mr. Ridiculously Gorgeous quit the group because he was tired of her flirting with him (and she had called him at home and got his fiance, which had created problems for him).
A dude of a different race joining the group wouldn't have changed the dynamic like that. When it was just us guys, nobody cared that one dude was overweight and hairy and one dude was Ridiculously Good Looking. It took a woman entering the group to make those differences suddenly relevant.
I will not comment on a specific example. But yes - bringing in people of different backgrounds (including different genders) does have an impact on an existing group. Just look at any area where women joined the workforce or traditionally male dominated social arenas in the last couple of hundred years. You know what had to happen to those groups and industries? They had to evolve and adapt to address the kinds of issues you had with your group. Just as had to happen when people of different races and religions and cultures join a previously homogeneous population.
Not really. I mean, it's pretty obvious why that is. It's a war game. Girls don't find war as interesting as guys do, because war isn't fundamental to female identity. I mean, my generation is the first generation in...all of human history...that didn't get sent off to war in large numbers. But we're still surrounded by huge amounts of literature and media that promotes the "war makes men into boys" meme. That's why boys get into wargames, because War Is Manly. Being Good At War is Manly. Girls don't have the same drive and desire to prove their masculinity by beating other men in pointless, trivial contests
So, because you are happy with the status quo, you do not wish to understand the reason behind something? "Because chicks are not into it and boys are" is no more an answer than to point at it and say "god did it".
And again, wargaming is one single facet of the issue, not a self contained problem that can be shrugged off.
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
False equivalence as said, power fantasies versus objectification. I may be using hyperbole here, but to clarify, there's a difference between this
The former is an objectification. I would mind wearing the former.
The latter is not. I would not mind wearing the latter.
Hyperbole, yes, but I believe you may catch my drift.
Hell, to use a less extreme example, see Black Widow from the Winter Soldier film. Clearly intended to be very attractive yet not objectified in the slightest (Maybe aside from the boobwindow poster, lols.)
But why is this a gender issue? Yes, you can be more relaxed around your buddies, but that has nothing to do with gender. And if you find that you need to censor yourself around specific gender, ethnicity or minority, then you probably should check your attitudes. (And why the hell can't girls swear in mixed company and why they need to 'pretend to be someone else'?)
Crimson wrote: (And why the hell can't girls swear in mixed company and why they need to 'pretend to be someone else'?)
I have a female friend, a little tiny girl, that is one of the crudest people I have ever met. She's fantastic. It's not that we don't accept girls that act that way, but she'll need to have tough skin to handle the jeers that are the standard male banter.
We (men) will get told off for acting the way we do with each other in front of girls quite commonly. Things we see as fun and normal all of a sudden create a bad atmosphere. So sometimes I just want to hang with the likeminded. My little asian girl is welcome any day. Most other girls, not so much.
But that's not to say I think 40k should be male dominated. It's more if my "guy's night out" happens to be a 40k evening.
Oh, I expected someone to bring up TERA armors. As I mentioned, it's an asian way of designing slowed bikini armour. While it does prove that oversexualizing women is bad(which noone denied, though), it should not be used as an argument in my opinion.
What I'd encourage you to do is to draw a clear line between oversexualizing and putting emphasis on physical attractiveness as those are two different things and I only want to discuss the latter, because the former is no doubt wrong, although it's funny how actually many girls like to play as castanic in those oversexualized bikini armours. Some surprisingly enough girls really like to play as very sexy chicks in provocative clothing!
Ashiraya wrote: Hell, to use a less extreme example, see Black Widow from the Winter Soldier film. Clearly intended to be very attractive yet not objectified in the slightest (Maybe aside from the boobwindow poster, lols.)
Yes, I agree, it's a great example of non-oversexualized outfit that still works well with the actress' body, but remember that it takes a fit, curvy body such as that of miss Johansson for it to look good, which is my point. Putting emphasis on fit, curvy and sexy women is nothing wrong as in many cases it promotes healthy life style and working out to achieve that(or similar) body shape... just like promoting muscular, big men on the other end.
But why is this a gender issue? Yes, you can be more relaxed around your buddies, but that has nothing to do with gender. And if you find that you need to censor yourself around specific gender, ethnicity or minority, then you probably should check your attitudes. (And why the hell can't girls swear in mixed company and why they need to 'pretend to be someone else'?)
Now I think I see where the misunderstanding lies. See - I didn't say you can't do that with a girl in the group(although there's a chance that in-group romance between one of the buds and the chick will end up in the group falling apart, been there, done that), I was just saying that if someone brings a girl to a group like that everything will change and those same guys won't be able to act as comfortable until they get used to her and even then there's a chance that she'll never accept those things they did before, eventually resulting in the whole group acting different than it did before, sometimes meaning it'll never again allow them to relax and give in to their more awkward/silly urges like they did before, that's all.
I have a female friend, a little tiny girl, that is one of the crudest people I have ever met. She's fantastic. It's not that we don't accept girls that act that way, but she'll need to have tough skin to handle the jeers that are the standard male banter.
We (men) will get told off for acting the way we do with each other in front of girls quite commonly. Things we see as fun and normal all of a sudden create a bad atmosphere. So sometimes I just want to hang with the likeminded. My little asian girl is welcome any day. Most other girls, not so much.
Right. And that's why it is not a gender issue. People who like crude jokes like to hang around with people who like crude jokes and people who don't like crude jokes like to hang around with people who don't like crude jokes. Why bring gender into it? (And if it is about making jokes about certain groups of people and not being able to do so when people from that group are around, then I have no sympathy. You shouldn't be making such jokes anyway.)
Right. And that's why it is not a gender issue. People who like crude jokes like to hang around with people who like crude jokes and people who don't like crude jokes like to hang around with people who don't like crude jokes. Why bring gender into it?
Well, it may have something to do with the fact that girls are more likely to not like crude jokes, effectively resulting with the crude men having to hold back in their own group because of the new person. Noone likes to suddenly have to change his relaxed habits because of someone new and while it applies to all genders, girls are just more likely to bring huge changes to the way people act in the group, are they not?
Edit: see, if a guy doesn't like the crude jokes he either shuts up or leaves the group. If a girl doesn't like crude jokes it's either the guys having to adjust their behaviour and start censoring themselves or her leaving and then talking about how the community is crude and unwelcoming to girls.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Not arguing that the setting couldn't be less male-oriented... just that I don't think the setting is what is generally putting off potential female players. From my experience, women just tend to be not as interested in strategy games.
Going to have to say that is a wee bit sexist. Because I know plenty but feel the environment is unwelcoming.
No, it's not sexist at all. Women and men differ by birth and that fact has some solid science behind it as opposed to genders are the same but society bogus. You probably know that for example Nordic Gender Institute was closed exactly because of this. So, while I'm not saying that it's true that majority of women don't like 40k exactly because they're women and ones who play meet specific criteria like for example being early introduced to it or having a certain taste, it's entirely possible and a valid argument.
You are sexist though for your sweeping generalisations about how it's all men wargamers fault because they behave like apes and scare girls off.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Most of the miniatures I was thinking about while writing that post (because they are sitting in my paint station right now) are female trolls. That's part of what's so ridiculous about it - you can't even play the "monster" faction without being subjected to metal corsets, boob plate, heels, etc.
Which one are you talking about ? My female sluggers have HUGE boobs, but apart from that, they wear basically the same armor as the male ones. They look badass enough, even though they do have horrible, horrible lips.
For reference :
The arms literally enter the boobs on the model. But the pose means most people do not even realize they are females.
Even though named characters like Janissa, Grissel and Calandra seems doomed to have cleavage armor. Seriously, cleavage armor?
My main concern with female trollbloods is that it seems somehow only trollkin get to have females. Pygmys, fullblood and dire trolls seem to reproduce asexually, or for some reason have a totally different sexual dimorphism where female do not have breasts. I even considered for some time adding breasts to one of my dire, but it would have been too hard to do right. It could also have triggered a lot of “funny” comments too, I guess.
Klerych wrote: Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
I disagree with this on several different points. First, the idea that people want to play character in games that they would also like to look like in real life. There are lots of popular games that allows you to play either monsters, “looser” characters,…
Second, the idea that good-looking and sexually attractive are the same is just as wrong. For instance, my character in DCUO, which therefore literally an super-heroin (well, officially a super-villainess but I like to think of her as an anti-hero…) looks like that.
Spoiler:
Does she look good? Well, I hope so. I think she looks awesome and super badass. Does she look sexy ? Well, the only skin you can see on her is her head, and she is not wearing any kind of skintight close, so I am going to say no. And, actually, I wanted her to have (relatively) casual clothes rather than some super-hero armor/costume. It was part of the appeal, I thought it actually made her look more badass. I mean, just look at the sexual dimorphism in WoW, it is pretty classic.
Pretending that every male character is being muscular, manly, strong and awesome is just contradicted by, say, the two most classic video game character ever, Mario and Sonic. What about Rayman, or Raziel, or Link, or Gordon Freeman, or…
Do you want to play a fat dude ? Play Coach in L4D2, or the fat character in any fighting video game (Rufus and Honda in Street Fighters, Bob from Tekken, Chang Koehan from KoF, …), or Gragras in LOL, or Warrio, or Biker in Quake III, or…
If you want to play as a fat female character, you only get Quake III and Loadout, as far as I can tell. But actually, fat is just being an extreme case of the fact that male characters in video game have a lot of different body types, while usually all female shares the very same body type.
Tell me, why do women wear make-up and clothing that most often compliments their body shape? Isn't it out of the desire to be pretty and appealing? While I understand that oversexualizing female armours and shapes is an issue nowadays, mostly thanks to eastern(most often japanese) games and their love for oppai, most girls would prefer play as a hot chick with near-perfect body, nice voice and wearing somewhat daring outfits rather than playing as bland, boring girl in casual dress. I mean.. there's a chance they feel like one in real life, even if they might not necessarily be like that. Men also prefer pretty women with pleasant voice, shapely body and clothing that compliments their features.. I mean.. everyone likes to look appealing and likes looking at appealing people, right? That, and as it was mentioned earlier - powerful women in fantasy are often associated with beauty and sex appeal and there's nothing hurting in that because I don't think there is a woman that wouldn't want to be both hot and successful and in case of most video games we're talking about great heroines that save the world. Why pretend to be a casual girl in a video game about world-saving superheroines? And just as mentioned - men don't seem to like playing as fat, sweaty, balding dudes either, and yet women never whine about every male character being muscular, manly, strong and handsome.. why is that?
False equivalence as said, power fantasies versus objectification. I may be using hyperbole here, but to clarify, there's a difference between this
The former is an objectification. I would mind wearing the former.
The latter is not. I would not mind wearing the latter.
Hyperbole, yes, but I believe you may catch my drift.
Hell, to use a less extreme example, see Black Widow from the Winter Soldier film. Clearly intended to be very attractive yet not objectified in the slightest (Maybe aside from the boobwindow poster, lols.)
To be fair to Tera, the woman in the top pic is a Castanic. They're an extra-planar race of libertine, hedonistic daemons... and the males of that race, in the game, wear equally-sexualized armor that shows off their impressive pecs, tight butts, washboard stomachs and bulging biceps. They (the Castanic males) are also completely self-absorbed, with such lines as "I get distracted by mirrors... see why?" and "You're really good! You remind me... of me!".
Also, due to a curse from the gods (long story, not important) both genders have metallic scars that start growing out of their bodies at puberty which are agonizingly painful, so they don't wear much clothing because it's debilitatingly painful to do so.
i like your anti - hero myself. she looks ready to ruin a hero's day.
From my experience and i mean just what i have experienced i know some female war gamer's and they have a wide variety of army's. the fact is a lot of girls/women aren't in to war gaming for a number of reason's. from not liking the rules to finding the setting rubbish. and to be perfectly honest i don;t see a problem with there not being a great number of female war gamer's if they don;t want to play 40K that's fine i do and if they do want to play great 2000pts at the local gaming club looser buys the drinks.
It was a "get well photo" some people made for their friend with "friends" marked on the left and one guy listed as "best friend" shown on the right.
The friends hold a banner saying "we miss you" and the best friend holds a scribbled sign saying "DIE!" (and then calls him something on the sign referring to his best friend's sexual alignment that I suppose is why it was frowned upon here) with a big gak-eating grin on his face.
It's been rotating around the web for some years (you'll find it instantly if you google image "friends best friend,") and I suppose the fact that it's not accepted is a pretty good commentary on why my group has to conform to things as soon as someone touchy walks into the room. It's just that I've found that women are more commonly touchy about these things than men are. (Not saying it's always like that. Some men are very touchy and some women have incredibly tough skin.) I wouldn't have known it was offensive if no one told me.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: Most of the miniatures I was thinking about while writing that post (because they are sitting in my paint station right now) are female trolls. That's part of what's so ridiculous about it - you can't even play the "monster" faction without being subjected to metal corsets, boob plate, heels, etc.
Which one are you talking about ? My female sluggers have HUGE boobs, but apart from that, they wear basically the same armor as the male ones. They look badass enough, even though they do have horrible, horrible lips.
For reference :
The arms literally enter the boobs on the model. But the pose means most people do not even realize they are females.
Even though named characters like Janissa, Grissel and Calandra seems doomed to have cleavage armor. Seriously, cleavage armor?
My main concern with female trollbloods is that it seems somehow only trollkin get to have females. Pygmys, fullblood and dire trolls seem to reproduce asexually, or for some reason have a totally different sexual dimorphism where female do not have breasts. I even considered for some time adding breasts to one of my dire, but it would have been too hard to do right. It could also have triggered a lot of “funny” comments too, I guess.
The ones I've been painting are Grissel (especially epic, since her prime model is just... bad, more than anything, but her epic model looks really awesome in some regards while being facepalm-worthy in others), Calandra (who is actually really awesome in the art department except for the bizarre boob plate) and Janissa (who has heels, corset and what looks like a bare midriff on the model but actually appears to just have a less armoured disembowelment window). I hadn't actually seen the full Slugger unit before and those look pretty cool! (Thanks, now there's even more risk I will get Sluggers even though they are terrible. )
And yeah, the first ridiculous thing about Grissel that catches the eye is her huge red lips. I would prefer them looking closer to the male trolls. As it is they would look like a different species if they weren't painted blue.
brochtree wrote: i like your anti - hero myself. she looks ready to ruin a hero's day.
Thanks.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: The ones I've been painting are Grissel (especially epic, since her prime model is just... bad, more than anything, but her epic model looks really awesome in some regards while being facepalm-worthy in others), Calandra (who is actually really awesome in the art department except for the bizarre boob plate) and Janissa (who has heels, corset and what looks like a bare midriff on the model but actually appears to just have a less armoured disembowelment window).
Can you not just green-stuff it out ? I know I did green-stuff the metal bra of my (count-as DCA) daughters of the flame's metal bra into normal breastplates and it worked perfectly. This might be a bit more tricky though.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: I hadn't actually seen the full Slugger unit before and those look pretty cool! (Thanks, now there's even more risk I will get Sluggers even though they are terrible. )
I can confirm that they look pretty cool and are terrible. Most games they do not do anything else than die, and damn they die quickly!
Warhammer 40,000 as a hobby is somewhat stagnant, and is not experiencing the same growth and modernization that some other popular hobbies in the US (where I live) are.
Magic: The Gathering, Dungeons & Dragons, and comic book collecting were all relatively male-dominated hobbies back in the day, and they all have a substantial female playerbase now. Last time I went to Friday Night Magic, the organizer was female. Most D&D groups are almost evenly divided between males and females, and there are a great deal of comic book collecting women. Maybe there isn't quite the same number of women as men yet, but given the rapid change in demographics in the last 10 years it's just a matter of time.
The thing is that Warhammer 40k isn't going through this 'Geek renaissance' in the US, at least not as much as many other pieces of media. All the sudden things that were socially pariah are great topics to talk about anywhere, and large bunches of people openly go to conventions. Comic Book collecting is seen as a reputable hobby for mature adults, and rare is the college that doesn't have a large group of people who spend their evenings and weekends that the FLGS.
But Warhammer is still kinda seen as regressive, not really known about, and laughed at a little. This is because the cost has prevented people from really buying into it, especially when there's so much other media available. In a scenario where you can pick from a dizzying array of choices to amuse yourself, why go for the one that costs ten times as much just to get started? If Warhammer could really appeal to the Geek Audience and makes itself affordable, they would have seen a sudden upswing of female players. But as it is, the female geeks are going where all the newcomers are- to games, media, and hobbies that aren't so expensive and hard to get into.
I would point out that 40K, the table-top miniatures war-game, does not seem to be going through quite the Renaissance that other games have, but the RPGs based on it don't seem to be having the same problems.
My local group, involved in a 2-years-running Dark Heresy game, has 3 female players in it, ranging in age from 24 to 40, and all of them are fascinated by the setting, even though none of them had much experience or exposure to it coming into DH.
Then again, my gaming group is fairly a-typical, given the norms, because (based on the fact that I live in Seattle), we're open to anyone who wants to play and that we can fit in at the table. Male, female, trans, straight, gay, bi, anything in between, we don't care.
What's more, the more people I talk to in these parts with their own gaming circles, almost all of them have at least 1 if not more female players. Ten or fifteen years ago, this would have been quite the anomaly.
Psienesis wrote: Then again, my gaming group is fairly a-typical, given the norms, because (based on the fact that I live in Seattle), we're open to anyone who wants to play and that we can fit in at the table. Male, female, trans, straight, gay, bi, anything in between, we don't care.
So, the norm is to say “Get out of here immediately or we will call the cops” on trans or gay people? Uh, really?
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men.
All women do this and no man ever does it?
Men do it to women all the time. There's a reason why Curves is women only -- some women are really uncomfortable working out and getting sweaty with men around, because some men will ogle or make rude comments. Not all men, just some, but enough that we all understand and respect that women feel the need to have women only spaces. Most people understand that a man who demands to be allowed to work out at Curves in the name of gender equality is just being a jerk.
Why this is only a problem in a mixed group? Ever heard of gay people?
I kind of think you're just being argumentative now. Like you're deliberately making an effort to not understand. Homophobia is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
Look, here's the only point I really want to make:
In their free time, when they're just relaxing and engaging in leisure, some people prefer to hang out and socialize with members of the same sex and not in mixed company. For the most part this is because these people are not successful in the mating game, and the mating game always rears its head in mixed company. This is an issue that is way, way, way beyond the scope of wargaming. There is hardly any hobby you can name that isn't significantly gendered, and that's because of much larger social forces at work than can be tackled by a bunch of wargamers.
Wargaming is only tangentially related to this because wargaming comes out of gaming clubs, and gaming clubs basically exist because awkward teens can't get dates and because married men need hobbies to keep themselves from driving their wives crazy (and said wives are often uncomfortable with their husbands hanging out with strange women). Wargaming grew out of culture that wasn't rooted in excluding females, but rather in being excluded from mixed company. The guys who invented our hobby were the guys who don't get invited to parties because the hot chicks won't show up if they're there. There's a reason a lot of guys who play Warhammer follow a pattern of playing in high school when they can't get dates, quitting playing while in college because they need the money for dating, getting married, having kids, and then returning to the hobby as grown-ups when they finally have disposable income and free time again.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
If you want that behavior to end, then you're really talking about something that has nothing to do with 40k at all. You're talking about fundamentally altering the way the entire world works, on very deep level. You'd basically have to remove the sex drive from humanity. That's way beyond the scope of any discussions of gaming, and frankly I'm really tired of people using gaming as a soapbox on which to call for radical change to all of society. It's boring.
Psienesis wrote: Then again, my gaming group is fairly a-typical, given the norms, because (based on the fact that I live in Seattle), we're open to anyone who wants to play and that we can fit in at the table. Male, female, trans, straight, gay, bi, anything in between, we don't care.
So, the norm is to say “Get out of here immediately or we will call the cops” on trans or gay people? Uh, really?
Or "we'll call the cops"? No. It tends to be "get out of here, f*ggot, or we'll kick your ass." Or the typical gay-panic reaction that seems inherent in some straight males that, because another male is gay, it automatically means the gay male is going to hit on the straight male, or attempt to rape them. Why this exists? I haven't the foggiest freakin' idea, but it does.
Remember that the people who play 40K are, in many cases, the same people who play video games, the same people who play Modern Warfare, Call of Duty, Madden whatever-the-hell-version-it's-on-now, DotA, LoL, or any one of a thousand other games you care to name.
These are the same "12-year-old racists/sexists" (even though they're not all 12, or even close to it) that I mentioned previously up-thread. These are the same people who are posting threats to female game designers for the decisions they make with regards to video game IPs. These are the same people who think that a girl dressed in a costume at a convention are there to be groped uninvited. Who are flipping their fethin' lids about a gay player being in the NFL. Who's idea of a "funny" event in a D&D game is to have a character (especially if the character is female) raped by minotaurs or something... because that's sophomoric "humor" to these types of gamers (which I've seen in enough games and heard about in enough anecdotes to indicate that these are not particularly isolated events), or have a hetero male character raped by minotaurs because, again, gay-panic joke.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
No, it is not okay to exclude people based on your absurd insecurities.
I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
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friendlycommissar wrote: There is hardly any hobby you can name that isn't significantly gendered, and that's because of much larger social forces at work than can be tackled by a bunch of wargamers.
I am not convinced. I mean, if they count as hobby, I would mention climbing and (classical) music, because I know those, and I am sure a lot of other could be mentioned.
friendlycommissar wrote: At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game.
I am pretty bad at “the mating game” (read it as “27, never had a girlfriend, never kissed a girl”), and I would not mind more women playing. I mean, either they are not interested in me as a romantic partner, in which case things stay pretty much the same except with more potential game partners, or they are, in which case it is even better. What do I have to loose, really?
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
No, it is not okay to exclude people based on your absurd insecurities.
I don't really see any evidence of that happening. The only people I ever seeing being actively excluded from gaming are people who want to invade gaming and drive off all the people who are currently gaming. The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
No, it is not okay to exclude people based on your absurd insecurities.
I don't really see any evidence of that happening. The only people I ever seeing being actively excluded from gaming are people who want to invade gaming and drive off all the people who are currently gaming. The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Okay, I think I have to ask. Are you yourself bad at “ the mating game”? Seriously, you can tell: I just did, and nothing horrible happened. Because you seem to take the issue very personally and very passionately.
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Quite right. It is almost as if wargaming should be a way to bring people together to share enjoyment of a passion regardless of who or what they are...
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
Consider yourself fortunate! I have run into them in all sorts of places, whether that's forums for various web-comics or video game sites, or at places like PAX (to which I will no longer go) or ECCC (Emerald City Comic Con).
Hell, I ran a D&D game for some people in the customer-support department where I work. These are people all over the age of 21. In this D&D game, there were two NPCs. One was an Asian man (from the D&D version of Japan), the other was his daughter, who's mother was a woman of the standard European-flavor that is the bog-standard for D&D.
Mind you, the daughter-NPC was a minor, being 16. *Immediately* began the ooc-jokes about these characters, between the racial slurs, the racist jokes ("So, is she round-eyed or a slope?"), and the incessant in-character attempts to either inappropriately grope the character, (Me: "She's perfectly capable of climbing a rope...", Player: "I don't care, I put my hand on her ass anyway") or work themselves into situations where they could watch her bathe or some freakin' pervy thing.
That character's father (several, several levels above the rest of the party combined), ended up killing the lot of them, because I'd had it.
Sadly, though, this was not a particularly unusual event in that game, which I'd run for PUG groups at ECCC, PAX, RustyCon and SakuraCon in preceding years. I had (naively, as it turns out) expected better from the people I work with.
friendlycommissar wrote: There is hardly any hobby you can name that isn't significantly gendered, and that's because of much larger social forces at work than can be tackled by a bunch of wargamers.
I am not convinced. I mean, if they count as hobby, I would mention climbing and (classical) music, because I know those, and I am sure a lot of other could be mentioned.
I have no idea what the numbers are on climbing, but my sister is a climber and it does seem to be a very gender equitable hobby. A lot of the outdoor hobbies are pretty gender equitable, probably because they're something couples can do together without being competitive and everybody likes being outside. I know with classical music there is a really strong tendency towards gender segregation by instrument. But there's a reason I said "There is hardly any" and not "There is no."
friendlycommissar wrote: At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game.
I am pretty bad at “the mating game” (read it as “27, never had a girlfriend, never kissed a girl”), and I would not mind more women playing. I mean, either they are not interested in me as a romantic partner, in which case things stay pretty much the same except with more potential game partners, or they are, in which case it is even better. What do I have to loose, really?
Well, I do not do much RPG, but my current group of Cthulhu players (where most players are over 30) has a woman for GM, and currently two women playing female characters. One of them is flirting with the character with the higher charisma stat, but here flirting means “I will try to learn French from him”, not “I will grope him in public” or “let us feth all night”…
My previous group was long ago, it was with family, D&D. I was playing the only female character IIRC. I was a dwarf. I did not flirt with anything. I was mostly either fighting stuff or looking for traps. I think it only lasted for one or two sessions.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
Consider yourself fortunate! I have run into them in all sorts of places, whether that's forums for various web-comics or video game sites, or at places like PAX (to which I will no longer go) or ECCC (Emerald City Comic Con).
Hell, I ran a D&D game for some people in the customer-support department where I work. These are people all over the age of 21. In this D&D game, there were two NPCs. One was an Asian man (from the D&D version of Japan), the other was his daughter, who's mother was a woman of the standard European-flavor that is the bog-standard for D&D.
Mind you, the daughter-NPC was a minor, being 16. *Immediately* began the ooc-jokes about these characters, between the racial slurs, the racist jokes ("So, is she round-eyed or a slope?"), and the incessant in-character attempts to either inappropriately grope the character, (Me: "She's perfectly capable of climbing a rope...", Player: "I don't care, I put my hand on her ass anyway") or work themselves into situations where they could watch her bathe or some freakin' pervy thing.
That character's father (several, several levels above the rest of the party combined), ended up killing the lot of them, because I'd had it.
Sadly, though, this was not a particularly unusual event in that game, which I'd run for PUG groups at ECCC, PAX, RustyCon and SakuraCon in preceding years. I had (naively, as it turns out) expected better from the people I work with.
How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
You did not answer my question by the way. Are you in this case? When you say that this is not the same for everyone, are you referring to your own experience?
Because women won't tolerate certain kinds of men, and will label them as creeps and losers and make sure that everyone else joins them in ostracizing those men.
All women do this and no man ever does it?
Men do it to women all the time. There's a reason why Curves is women only -- some women are really uncomfortable working out and getting sweaty with men around, because some men will ogle or make rude comments. Not all men, just some, but enough that we all understand and respect that women feel the need to have women only spaces. Most people understand that a man who demands to be allowed to work out at Curves in the name of gender equality is just being a jerk.
Why this is only a problem in a mixed group? Ever heard of gay people?
I kind of think you're just being argumentative now. Like you're deliberately making an effort to not understand. Homophobia is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
Look, here's the only point I really want to make:
In their free time, when they're just relaxing and engaging in leisure, some people prefer to hang out and socialize with members of the same sex and not in mixed company. For the most part this is because these people are not successful in the mating game, and the mating game always rears its head in mixed company. This is an issue that is way, way, way beyond the scope of wargaming. There is hardly any hobby you can name that isn't significantly gendered, and that's because of much larger social forces at work than can be tackled by a bunch of wargamers.
Wargaming is only tangentially related to this because wargaming comes out of gaming clubs, and gaming clubs basically exist because awkward teens can't get dates and because married men need hobbies to keep themselves from driving their wives crazy (and said wives are often uncomfortable with their husbands hanging out with strange women). Wargaming grew out of culture that wasn't rooted in excluding females, but rather in being excluded from mixed company. The guys who invented our hobby were the guys who don't get invited to parties because the hot chicks won't show up if they're there. There's a reason a lot of guys who play Warhammer follow a pattern of playing in high school when they can't get dates, quitting playing while in college because they need the money for dating, getting married, having kids, and then returning to the hobby as grown-ups when they finally have disposable income and free time again.
There's nothing wrong with that. It's actually just fine if some hobbies are male-dominated and some are female-dominated. They're hobbies. Their literal definition is "things people do to kill time." At the same time, some people really need safe spaces where they can socialize and get human contact and feel appreciated and valued, and some people can't get that in mixed company because they can't play the mating game. And that Warhammer happens to be a thing that many groups of guys glom onto as an excuse to socialize is neither good nor bad. It's meaningless.
If you want that behavior to end, then you're really talking about something that has nothing to do with 40k at all. You're talking about fundamentally altering the way the entire world works, on very deep level. You'd basically have to remove the sex drive from humanity. That's way beyond the scope of any discussions of gaming, and frankly I'm really tired of people using gaming as a soapbox on which to call for radical change to all of society. It's boring.
Then... then how do I use this to get away from the mating game Because apparently if I see any other human being it automatically becomes the mating game now
StarTrotter wrote: How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
Yeah, Reading his posts makes me wonder. Neither of the groups I have plaued RPG's with have been anything like that. One group was quite large (about 10 people with 2 women) and the other was 4 guys. Neither group was anything like that.
Sorry, when I skimmed it I missed the punctuation in your post and it made me chuckle
Then... then how do I use this to get away from the mating game Because apparently if I see any other human being it automatically becomes the mating game now
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Okay, I think I have to ask. Are you yourself bad at “ the mating game”? Seriously, you can tell: I just did, and nothing horrible happened. Because you seem to take the issue very personally and very passionately.
Women seem to dig me for the most part. I'm only bad at the maintaining relationships, not at the getting into them part. I find it easy to flirt with girls, and very rarely get rejected, but I have trouble making any relationship last more than a few weeks. Most women accuse me of being inscrutable and incapable of opening up, whereas I tend to find most women incredibly boring once I've had sex with them. I'm kind of jerk like that, I guess. I'm in my late 30s now, and pretty much a committed bachelor. I don't want kids, don't want to be married, and don't really care about relationships or sex as much as I did say fifteen years ago. I kind of get annoyed by this issue because I like gaming and I loathe other people's drama, and I find that mixed gaming groups tend to have way more drama than male-only groups and that drama tends to make gaming groups explode, which is why I've run so many unfinished campaigns. The drama really gets in the way of the gaming. In fact, I've been getting way more into wargaming and getting away from RPGs just because there's so much less drama with the almost entirely male wargaming scene.
But what really gets my dander up is the way people like Crimson and Silver always twist the argument around so that everyone who disagrees with them is a horrible, sexist monster. The self-righteousness really aggravates me, especially when they're being so self-righteous over something that is so bleeding trivial. Playing Warhammer is not a human right. It's a thing one does when one is hanging out with one's mates. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with one's mates. And if you somehow change the gaming scene so it's not mostly composed of guys hanging out with their mates, then it's not like guys are going to stop hanging out with their mates with no women around. They'll just being doing it somewhere else, and doing something else that women aren't interested in, until people like Crimson and Silver take issue with that as well.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I never met anyone that horrible irl, and I suspect this is more due to the fact on the internet, a very few proportion of bad people can make a lot of noise. Or maybe I am either pretty luck or pretty blind.
Consider yourself fortunate! I have run into them in all sorts of places, whether that's forums for various web-comics or video game sites, or at places like PAX (to which I will no longer go) or ECCC (Emerald City Comic Con).
Hell, I ran a D&D game for some people in the customer-support department where I work. These are people all over the age of 21. In this D&D game, there were two NPCs. One was an Asian man (from the D&D version of Japan), the other was his daughter, who's mother was a woman of the standard European-flavor that is the bog-standard for D&D.
Mind you, the daughter-NPC was a minor, being 16. *Immediately* began the ooc-jokes about these characters, between the racial slurs, the racist jokes ("So, is she round-eyed or a slope?"), and the incessant in-character attempts to either inappropriately grope the character, (Me: "She's perfectly capable of climbing a rope...", Player: "I don't care, I put my hand on her ass anyway") or work themselves into situations where they could watch her bathe or some freakin' pervy thing.
That character's father (several, several levels above the rest of the party combined), ended up killing the lot of them, because I'd had it.
Sadly, though, this was not a particularly unusual event in that game, which I'd run for PUG groups at ECCC, PAX, RustyCon and SakuraCon in preceding years. I had (naively, as it turns out) expected better from the people I work with.
How is this the first thing people think of!? Seriously. Well... then again it's a game with an army of murder hobos....
I have no idea how, or why, this is the first thing some people think of. Or what makes them think that such a thing is funny. Or how anyone can be amused by such antics. I... just don't know. And the fact that, of the seven or eight times I've run that story (it's a pretty standard sweep-and-clear dungeon crawl, if you boil it down to its most basic components), elements like that have come up (not always every player, but at least one) almost every time I've run it. I don't know if it's people channeling their internet-id at the gaming table, I don't know if these people just don't have an idea where "the line" is (so they constantly cross it) when in public, or if they're just naturally racists and misogynists. Sometimes, though, the joke was made, the line was crossed, whatever, and the other players were like "seriously, dude?" to whoever said it, and it was never repeated. Which, props to those groups, and some props to the initiator, as at least they learned to keep their damn mouths shut with that kind of stuff.
There's been some interesting studies, though the results are by no means definitive, on the social culture of gaming, which suggests that the misogyny found in many sections of the gamer culture is a result of poor social skills (which can be both a cause of, and symptomatic of, poor hygiene habits) that leads to poor inter-gender relationships (poor social skills, possibly exacerbated by poor hygiene skills, causes the subject to have extremely limited, and often negative, interactions with people of the opposite gender), which then is expressed as a misogynistic world-view and associated attitude. In a sense, it's a sort of defense mechanism... but the problem here, to my way of looking at it, is that there would be no need for the defense mechanism if they'd shower frequently and not be an insufferable jerkwad to women all the damn time. Just because a woman talks to you does not mean she's interested in sleeping with you, and I find with a lot of these types that I end up interacting with, there is this kind of expectation there. How, or why, this philosophy gets formed, I haven't a clue.
Of course, I've met a few misandrists in gamer culture, too, but those have been comparatively few and far between... in fact, I can think of only two specific occasions where I met some truly man-hating gamer women, and in one case, I'm not entirely sure that she was not just taking her cos-play a little too far, and was remaining in-character just a little too much. I've not seen her since, in the years between then and now, so I dunno. The other was just... whoa. Like a living stereotype, almost, though I was assured by some mutual acquaintances that, outside of her reactionary misandry, she was a perfectly fine human being, but that was certainly never evidenced to me.
FC: If you find your words and arguments being turned back on you, that is an issue with your words and arguments not those who use them to highlight the flaws in your thinking and/or attitude.
You will note that nowhere have I said that there is anything wrong with single sex social groupings. My comments have all been directed towards your dismissive attitude and so my posts have all just been holding a mirror to yours.
My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue. You've had some bad incidents... but it seems to me your (and your groups) methods for dealing with those situations are ultimately more at fault than the change in group make up.
SilverMK2 wrote: My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
I mean, frankly, what you are saying terrifies me. People like you sound like lunatics to me, because basically what you're talking about is engaging in a massive social engineering project to make people conform to a very narrowly defined concept of "correct behavior," which seems to be predicated on a completely lack of understanding of human nature and society. And that sounds like a disaster in the making.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue.
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around. But again, this is why this conversation is completely inappropriate on a forum called "40k General Discussion." This really has nothing at all to do with 40k.
friendlycommissar wrote: It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around.
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
Because there are people who say crap like this:
If some girls feel excluded...well, why should anyone care?
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
If there were no such people, women couldn't vote and there would still be slavery.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around.
Really? Wanting women to be treated as people is irrational and hate-filled?
friendlycommissar wrote: The kind of jerks that dismiss other people's real feelings as "absurd insecurities" without even attempting a moment of compassion or understanding. You're basically being cruel and insensitive and very dismissive of people who aren't like you, and I don't know if you get this, but acting smug, self-righteous and intolerant doesn't make anyone want to agree with you.
Okay, I think I have to ask. Are you yourself bad at “ the mating game”? Seriously, you can tell: I just did, and nothing horrible happened. Because you seem to take the issue very personally and very passionately.
Women seem to dig me for the most part. I'm only bad at the maintaining relationships, not at the getting into them part. I find it easy to flirt with girls, and very rarely get rejected, but I have trouble making any relationship last more than a few weeks. Most women accuse me of being inscrutable and incapable of opening up, whereas I tend to find most women incredibly boring once I've had sex with them. I'm kind of jerk like that, I guess. I'm in my late 30s now, and pretty much a committed bachelor. I don't want kids, don't want to be married, and don't really care about relationships or sex as much as I did say fifteen years ago. I kind of get annoyed by this issue because I like gaming and I loathe other people's drama, and I find that mixed gaming groups tend to have way more drama than male-only groups and that drama tends to make gaming groups explode, which is why I've run so many unfinished campaigns. The drama really gets in the way of the gaming. In fact, I've been getting way more into wargaming and getting away from RPGs just because there's so much less drama with the almost entirely male wargaming scene.
But what really gets my dander up is the way people like Crimson and Silver always twist the argument around so that everyone who disagrees with them is a horrible, sexist monster. The self-righteousness really aggravates me, especially when they're being so self-righteous over something that is so bleeding trivial. Playing Warhammer is not a human right. It's a thing one does when one is hanging out with one's mates. There's nothing wrong with hanging out with one's mates. And if you somehow change the gaming scene so it's not mostly composed of guys hanging out with their mates, then it's not like guys are going to stop hanging out with their mates with no women around. They'll just being doing it somewhere else, and doing something else that women aren't interested in, until people like Crimson and Silver take issue with that as well.
I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything. That, or if the mating game is always what opposite sexes leads to, then what if I like both guys and girls? Am I always playing the mating game?
A friendly reminder to all those involved: Dakka has a few rules that govern your participation on this forum. Nothing constructive can come from tossing around loaded phrases, like, oh, "<broad group label> are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around." Just to pluck an example out of the air, so to speak.
If you can't discuss this politely, you'll quickly lose your ability to discuss it at all. This is a low tolerance area. Only warning.
I'm tired of editing quotes on my phone so I will reply in a single post.
You may note that we are on a wargaming forum discussing gender in wargaming. That might give you an indication as to why we are discussing the gender divide in wargaming. Though if that is not clear to you, let me just restate that: you are in a thread on a wargaming forum taking about gender in wargaming, so people will be talking about gender in wargaming.
As to social engineering... on one level, certainly any level of understanding of human nature and social interaction gives people the ability to shape the evolution of that nature and society. It is no different from the tens of thousands of years of social engineering that have occured every time more than two people have existed together in human history.
As to making people conform to "correct behaviour"... well... there are certainly advantages to keeping slaves and treating women as baby factories. Hell, why not rebuild the spartan ethos of male homosexuality in a soldier elite caste who rule the nation? After all, correct behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
Besides, other than broad trends, it is exceptionally difficult to perform social engineering towards a vague goal of "niceness" to all people. Ever tried herding cats? It is however significantly easier to work through fear and prejudice to enforce outcomes.
All of the above should be taken as being from someone with only a passing interest in sociology and related social sciences (I am more into science-science ).
SilverMK2 wrote: My underlying point has been that gender divides should be studied and where appropriate steps should be made to ensure that everyone feels welcome in any group they might want to join regardless of background. As you have pointed out, this will take fundemental shifts in ingrained attitudes and subconsious behaviour to achieve, but you have to start somewhere.
What possible reason is there to start with Warhammer? Why even bring this into a Warhammer forum? Warhammer is not even remotely an appropriate place to start. What you're talking about is a much larger issue, a very divisive and political issue that engenders a lot of conflict and heated argument. It's really not appropriate to use 40k as a platform for launching this kind of crusade.
I mean, frankly, what you are saying terrifies me. People like you sound like lunatics to me, because basically what you're talking about is engaging in a massive social engineering project to make people conform to a very narrowly defined concept of "correct behavior," which seems to be predicated on a completely lack of understanding of human nature and society. And that sounds like a disaster in the making.
Wargaming is a passtime that can be considerably less toxic to female (and other groups too) gamers. I am still unsure as to your resistance on this issue.
I am deeply suspicious of self-righteous ideologues who want to make things "better." They pretty much never do.
It doesn't help at all that you are using what sound like feminist arguments, and feminists are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around. But again, this is why this conversation is completely inappropriate on a forum called "40k General Discussion." This really has nothing at all to do with 40k.
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
The best way to treat anybody is as an equal, a human being. That's the entire point of what Melissia said there.
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment?
Not special treatment, not in either direction!
Oooooo bloody chaos lord. I like where this is going! Hmm... what type of spikes? Just a standard model or is it custom made with some new ones? (Is it wrong if I almost wish to ask for a picture just to see how spiky it is? Then gain I had a spike challenge with a DE friend of mine. I won with a story of building a forgefiend autocannon. Tried to push the gun in.... so many spikes darting through skin to draw blood. I still shudder remembering it. But I suppose such is necessary to put a daemon in it )
Janthkin wrote: A friendly reminder to all those involved: Dakka has a few rules that govern your participation on this forum. Nothing constructive can come from tossing around loaded phrases, like, oh, "<broad group label> are some of the most irrational, hate-filled people around." Just to pluck an example out of the air, so to speak.
If you can't discuss this politely, you'll quickly lose your ability to discuss it at all. This is a low tolerance area. Only warning.
Oooooo bloody chaos lord. I like where this is going! Hmm... what type of spikes? Just a standard model or is it custom made with some new ones? (Is it wrong if I almost wish to ask for a picture just to see how spiky it is? Then gain I had a spike challenge with a DE friend of mine. I won with a story of building a forgefiend autocannon. Tried to push the gun in.... so many spikes darting through skin to draw blood. I still shudder remembering it. But I suppose such is necessary to put a daemon in it )
He is not so spiky in himself, he just draws so much blood because they are mostly pointing upwards, waiting to stab an overeager player wanting to begin their Movement phase or remove a casualty.
Question unrelated.. do you think that girls are supposed to get some special treatment? Not saying that you implied something like that, mind you. If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it. If a girl does, isn't it only natural and expected of her to just get over it just like a guy would?
Huh. But then again....
I'm saying unrelated because I'm kind of done arguing in this thread as I've already stated my point regarding the differences and problems of two gender interactions in this hobby given the social awkwardness of some people that want to feel comfortable in it without censoring themselves because someone brought a girl that is, common (mis/)conception, most likely to not accept their behaviour or even appearance in a place other than their house where they could be accepted the way they are. So I'm just going to pop in and ask random questions whenever something interesting appears.
Who's asking for special treatment, now? If those socially awkward guys you just mentioned are feeling excluded by the inclusion of a female into the gaming group, aren't they suppose to just get over it?
Yes, people tend to behave differently, depending on the setting and/or people they are interacting with. But if it takes the inclusion of a female into the gaming circle to cut down on the random (male) strangers farting & telling "humorous" sex jokes, then we really NEED more females gaming, because it is clear that some people don't otherwise realize that some behavior just isn't acceptable amongst strangers or casual acquaintances otherwise.
People are responsible for their own behavior. If (generic) you behave in a manner that is exclusionary of half the population, the problem isn't the females.
Klerych wrote: If a guy feels excluded, he has to get over with it.
Depends on why he feels excluded. If he feels excluded because he cannot make racist comment and annoy everybody, well, he is excluded, and rightly so. If he feels excluded because he is gay and everyone is making fun of that, then no, he does not have to get over it, people should stop making him feel excluded. And there are some middle ground.
StarTrotter wrote: I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
Okay, see, you're being super obnoxious. Stop with the allusions to racism and anti-semitism and to horrible social injustices. It's so offensive and insulting, and while it doesn't violate the rules of the forum, it really should. Because I think you know just how vicious and nasty you're being, and you're hiding behind this social justice nonsense, but it's just rude. Stop accusing me of being a racist out of the corner of your mouth.
I haven't even once actually said that women shouldn't be allowed to play Warhammer, or that its okay for guys to exclude women. All I've said is that groups of awkward guys often exclude women because they are themselves excluded by women, and that in the grand scheme of things this is completely trivial. Changing the status quo would require either completely changing society or by completely changing Warhammer. I just don't see any reason to do that. It really doesn't matter if 1% or 50% of Warhammer players are women.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
So you do the same with gay men then?
What are you asking? I can't parse this question at all. Do the same with? I don't understand this at all.
I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing. At no point did I say anything about doing anything to anyone.
friendlycommissar wrote: I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
Well, to be honest, suffragetttes were feminists themselves. And as an insecure dweeb myself, I do not really understand what you are trying to protect me from.
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friendlycommissar wrote: I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing.
I think the term you are looking for, actually, is fething. Or at the very least flirting. But fraternizing means brotherly relations, which, unless you are a Lannister…
StarTrotter wrote: I was more having fun with the fact you went on about the mating game if a girl gets involved always leading to it. That's a bunch of . The end is maturity, if you can't hold back/restrain your hormones in a group, you need to give yourself a mental slap and focus on the game. It's about having fun not about sexing it up or anything.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
Indeed, it didn't start in 40k though. It's not going to just start in 40k and even if it did, why would it not be appropriate? What is bad about making a community more accepting of others and inviting? Heck, it just increases the number of possible players meaning more money!
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
So you would have been terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society without being hated on or you don't want to be around gays, bis, etc because eeeew? Here's the thing, there has always been a socially engineered restriction on the world. Guys can't like girly things often times, girls can't like guy things, blacks are unreliable, and apparently all gays want to feth you in the ass just because they are a guy and you are a guy. The only thing to be afraid of is change.
Okay, see, you're being super obnoxious. Stop with the allusions to racism and anti-semitism and to horrible social injustices. It's so offensive and insulting, and while it doesn't violate the rules of the forum, it really should. Because I think you know just how vicious and nasty you're being, and you're hiding behind this social justice nonsense, but it's just rude. Stop accusing me of being a racist out of the corner of your mouth.
I haven't even once actually said that women shouldn't be allowed to play Warhammer, or that its okay for guys to exclude women. All I've said is that groups of awkward guys often exclude women because they are themselves excluded by women, and that in the grand scheme of things this is completely trivial. Changing the status quo would require either completely changing society or by completely changing Warhammer. I just don't see any reason to do that. It really doesn't matter if 1% or 50% of Warhammer players are women.
As per feminists, mate feminists aren't all bad. Hell, the first ones made there be more equality. Yes, there are the bad apples. The ones that claim to want to subject males, enslave them, chop off their dicks, etc. but that's like saying the smelly guy that never showers should ruin how you look at an entire group of people. My cart of apples is bad because there's one bad apple out of 50!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
Forgive me butt I'm going to not be responding to you in the well formatted divisions you have. Sadly, it's already a bit too big as is so spoilers it shall go! I'll put a number next to the segments to give some vague form of division.
1. What I ask is, how is this any different than when I'm with a group of guys? Here's the thing, I like guys. I also like girls. And guess what? I can keep my pants on at all times. So it's fine if gay guys start fething around in a group but not if its girls?
2. No, here's the thing, what is this cadre of people that would be driven off. People that love to shout about rape and make jokes about it? is it so sorrowful for people to just learn that what they say has repercussions?
3. And no, I wasn't meaning that. I wasn't saying hey you are a racist. I meant one thing and one thing alone... you were speaking of fear of this "social engineering". My point is, it's always been that way. Go back in time and try to be gay, I beg you to try to. Go back and try to live life as a black man without being slurred and treated like gak. Do we think its horrid? Yes. But in those times that was the socially acceptable thing to do. What is acceptable and not acceptable in society has always been made up. Go back in time and monogamy was a-okay but now it would be decried, marry an 11 year old in certain places won't get an eye bat but here people will flip tables. That's what I was talking about.
As per exclusion, I just don't think it's great that we have to make the boundary at who's a guy and who's a girl. If somebody likes it, they shouldn't have to not like it just because the fanbase is immature/jerky/
Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
4. And welcome to the complexities of life. Not everybody is good and not everybody is bad. Plus I'm not a feminist. And the terrified of blacks was more to point out that things that are acceptable and unacceptable always exist and people like Silver aren't creating it to make you suffer or some nonsense. It's ALWAYS been there. And I assume you are talking about the ones that are like men should die/only men are rapers/all men are rapists. yeah those people are but that just comes with people being people. Oh, and you should look up social justice warriors on tumblr they are hilarious to read (I'm still sad to see my favorite one go. Turns out it was a troll but darn they spoke like the best of them. It was my place to go to for ludicrous over the top nonsense)
Ah yes, thing is, you are correct it's not the worst thing in the world. It doesn't even come close but this is a forum about wargames on a general asking why not many play 40k which can be observed in general for wargames at large.
StarTrotter wrote: Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
You do not need women to play the game for that. You just need to, you know, tell them. I mentioned it in my very first post on this topic IIRC, but nobody seemed to notice.
Look, you're not talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting in general. You're talking about making a community more accepting of others and inviting to specific cadre of people that will drive off an existing cadre of people already in the community.
If there indeed are male players that would be driven off by inclusion of women (which I greatly doubt), then good riddance!
I've never met any feminist like you are describing. I find the kind of feminists I'm talking to right now to be annoying enough to dismiss feminism, especially modern internet feminism, which is pretty much 100% self-righteousness and self-indulgence. People like Crimson up there comparing themselves to abolitionists and suffragettes as they fight the persistent social injustice of insecure dweebs having a hobby, or you with this nonsense about "terrified of blacks and muslims or those jewish people being integrated into society."
I cannot eyeroll hard enough to express how exasperating I find you people.
Yes, there indeed have been, and still is, much greater injustices in the world than women being excluded from 40K. This is obvious. But this being a 40K forum so we talk about wargaming related matters here. (However, the exact same 'boys-club' attitude you embody influences much more serious issues too.) And it is indeed a bit sad how you fail to see how racism and sexism are really quite similar, and while you may balk at the former you happily make excuses for the latter.
At some point you just have to recognize that what you are demanding is not possible. I mean, corporations -- even the military, in times of war! -- cannot keep men and women from fraternizing, and you somehow think that you can get people to stop fraternizing while engaging in leisurely pursuits? Can you really not see how completely ridiculous a suggestion that is? A situation where men and women are relaxing, sharing good times and mutual interests, and steadfastly remaining utterly chaste and not ever thinking with their loins? For real?
So you do the same with gay men then?
What are you asking? I can't parse this question at all. Do the same with? I don't understand this at all.
I was making an observation, which is that if the nobody can keep men and women from fraternizing. At no point did I say anything about doing anything to anyone.
Your question makes zero sense.
The point being that the same can go to gays liking individuals of the same sex. Hell, for all you know one of the guys might be gay or bi. You don't know until you drag it out of them anyways (that or they make it obvious). So the question becomes, if you can't have a girl join a group because it'll just become the mating game, what about a gay or bi guy?
StarTrotter wrote: Plus, reinforcing people to take showers is a good thing
You do not need women to play the game for that. You just need to, you know, tell them. I mentioned it in my very first post on this topic IIRC, but nobody seemed to notice.
That was aimed at him claiming that making the place more inviting to women would force out the current group. Thing is, the current stereotype is a fat guy with no social skills, neckbeard, and really smelly as though the solution to bring in girls would either force these individuals out or teach them to shower. My question was, how is that anything but good
In reality, that's just something that needs improving in general. I'd certainly go to far more hobby shops if people didn't stink as much
Crimson wrote: If there indeed are male players that would be driven off by inclusion of women (which I greatly doubt), then good riddance!
Basically, it all boils down to who one cares more about. You care more about the girls that want to play, Friendly Commissar cares more about the insecure dweebs that would feel uncomfortable when there are women around…
3. And no, I wasn't meaning that. I wasn't saying hey you are a racist. I meant one thing and one thing alone... you were speaking of fear of this "social engineering". My point is, it's always been that way. Go back in time and try to be gay, I beg you to try to. Go back and try to live life as a black man without being slurred and treated like gak. Do we think its horrid? Yes. But in those times that was the socially acceptable thing to do. What is acceptable and not acceptable in society has always been made up. Go back in time and monogamy was a-okay but now it would be decried, marry an 11 year old in certain places won't get an eye bat but here people will flip tables. That's what I was talking about.
I think you mean polygamy (multiple marriages, especially one man having many wives), as monogamy (one man, one wife) is the current rule of society and law, both.
Child-Marriage is a totally different thing... but again a thing that was, previously, socially acceptable, but is no longer. Sort of. What we think of as child-marriage was not actually (not in Europe, anyway) 11 year olds getting married to old guys, or even to other 11 year olds. Most commonly, noble families would agree that their children, who were at the time 11 or whatever, would be wed... and then they'd wait 7, 8, 9 years until they actually had the ceremony and consummation.
StarTrotter wrote: In reality, that's just something that needs improving in general. I'd certainly go to far more hobby shops if people didn't stink as much
As I have asked a bunch of time already, have you told them ?
StarTrotter wrote: In reality, that's just something that needs improving in general. I'd certainly go to far more hobby shops if people didn't stink as much
As I have asked a bunch of time already, have you told them ?
Sometimes yes sometimes no. For the most part I'm just trying to jest here and there because these types of threads can get nasty real fast.
3. And no, I wasn't meaning that. I wasn't saying hey you are a racist. I meant one thing and one thing alone... you were speaking of fear of this "social engineering". My point is, it's always been that way. Go back in time and try to be gay, I beg you to try to. Go back and try to live life as a black man without being slurred and treated like gak. Do we think its horrid? Yes. But in those times that was the socially acceptable thing to do. What is acceptable and not acceptable in society has always been made up. Go back in time and monogamy was a-okay but now it would be decried, marry an 11 year old in certain places won't get an eye bat but here people will flip tables. That's what I was talking about.
I think you mean polygamy (multiple marriages, especially one man having many wives), as monogamy (one man, one wife) is the current rule of society and law, both.
Child-Marriage is a totally different thing... but again a thing that was, previously, socially acceptable, but is no longer. Sort of. What we think of as child-marriage was not actually (not in Europe, anyway) 11 year olds getting married to old guys, or even to other 11 year olds. Most commonly, noble families would agree that their children, who were at the time 11 or whatever, would be wed... and then they'd wait 7, 8, 9 years until they actually had the ceremony and consummation.
.... bah! I slipped up there pretty badly. yeah, I meant polygamy there. As per child marriages, I think I was opting for India. It's been a long time since I last read it but it was in a history textbook of mine I believe where it was an older man with a young girl. They'd be married at this age although nothing would usually happen for at least a few more years. I wish I could check right now. Either way, what is socially acceptable at times changes and that's what I was focusing on.
Kain wrote: Women would be more interested in the game if the setting were less ridiculously sexist. Stop writing women out of the setting, stop the ridiculous imbalance in male and female characters, stop sausagefest40k.
I'm not so sure that's the actual impediment here, though. I've met more females who liked the setting but had no interest in the game than those who were interested in the game but put off by the setting.
Well, I guess you should try to tell it seriously, but in a friendly manner. Because if you are saying it in jest, it will likely not be taken seriously, and if you are being confrontational, it will not work. It likely will not work if you are the only one complaining too.
.... bah! I slipped up there pretty badly. yeah, I meant polygamy there. As per child marriages, I think I was opting for India. It's been a long time since I last read it but it was in a history textbook of mine I believe where it was an older man with a young girl. They'd be married at this age although nothing would usually happen for at least a few more years. I wish I could check right now. Either way, what is socially acceptable at times changes and that's what I was focusing on.
As far as I am aware, this is still a common practices amongst certain hardline, fundamentalist Hindu sects, which is to say that it happens, but is not like an everyday thing... and is the source of some controversy in India... much like polygamy in certain Mormon off-shoots in the US.
However, I don't know enough about the various sects of Hinduism, or their reception in modern-day India, to know how widespread such a thing might be, or what it's general reaction is.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Well, I guess you should try to tell it seriously, but in a friendly manner. Because if you are saying it in jest, it will likely not be taken seriously, and if you are being confrontational, it will not work. It likely will not work if you are the only one complaining too.
Doh! I meant THESE threads. You know the female player/females on the field. Naw, I say it in a friendly manner to the people I do. Admittedly I'm sometimes a tad bit shy around absolute strangers so that's why I don't.
SilverMK2 wrote: You may note that we are on a wargaming forum discussing gender in wargaming. That might give you an indication as to why we are discussing the gender divide in wargaming. Though if that is not clear to you, let me just restate that: you are in a thread on a wargaming forum taking about gender in wargaming, so people will be talking about gender in wargaming.
And what I'm suggesting is that this basically amounts to trolling. You're not really discussing gender in wargaming or gender in 40k, you're using wargaming to launch a discussion about much broader and thornier issues that are deeply divisive and prone to starting vicious arguments.
These conversations come up all the time and they accomplish nothing but creating ill will.
As to social engineering... on one level, certainly any level of understanding of human nature and social interaction gives people the ability to shape the evolution of that nature and society. It is no different from the tens of thousands of years of social engineering that have occured every time more than two people have existed together in human history.
No, social engineering is a deliberate and conscious attempt to impose a worldview onto society, rather than allowing society to develop organically.
As to making people conform to "correct behaviour"... well... there are certainly advantages to keeping slaves and treating women as baby factories. Hell, why not rebuild the spartan ethos of male homosexuality in a soldier elite caste who rule the nation? After all, correct behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
That's kind of my point. Slavery, patriarchy, all of these evils you seem to want to force me to defend (which is very obnoxious, btw) are the result of social engineering. And yet, you want to use social engineering to impose your worldview, because...you're right, unlike everyone else?
Besides, other than broad trends, it is exceptionally difficult to perform social engineering towards a vague goal of "niceness" to all people. Ever tried herding cats? It is however significantly easier to work through fear and prejudice to enforce outcomes.
Congratulations, you have just given yourself license to be a self-righteous bully. You decide you know what is right better than everyone else, and you give yourself permission to use fear and prejudice to force conformity with your goals on others. Like I said: terrifying.
friendlycommissar wrote: [No, social engineering is a deliberate and conscious attempt to impose a worldview onto society, rather than allowing society to develop organically.
As to making people conform to "correct behaviour"... well... there are certainly advantages to keeping slaves and treating women as baby factories. Hell, why not rebuild the spartan ethos of male homosexuality in a soldier elite caste who rule the nation? After all, correct behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
That's kind of my point. Slavery, patriarchy, all of these evils you seem to want to force me to defend (which is very obnoxious, btw) are the result of social engineering. And yet, you want to use social engineering to impose your worldview, because...you're right, unlike everyone else?
Just to make sure I understand things right: slavery, patriarchy and co comes from deliberate and conscious attempt to impose a worldview onto society, while dorks playing warhammer 40k and not wanting any female player is something that grew organically, and changing that would be another deliberate and conscious attempt to impose a worldview onto society?
SilverMK2 wrote: You may note that we are on a wargaming forum discussing gender in wargaming. That might give you an indication as to why we are discussing the gender divide in wargaming. Though if that is not clear to you, let me just restate that: you are in a thread on a wargaming forum taking about gender in wargaming, so people will be talking about gender in wargaming.
And what I'm suggesting is that this basically amounts to trolling. You're not really discussing gender in wargaming or gender in 40k, you're using wargaming to launch a discussion about much broader and thornier issues that are deeply divisive and prone to starting vicious arguments.
These conversations come up all the time and they accomplish nothing but creating ill will.
As to social engineering... on one level, certainly any level of understanding of human nature and social interaction gives people the ability to shape the evolution of that nature and society. It is no different from the tens of thousands of years of social engineering that have occured every time more than two people have existed together in human history.
No, social engineering is a deliberate and conscious attempt to impose a worldview onto society, rather than allowing society to develop organically.
As to making people conform to "correct behaviour"... well... there are certainly advantages to keeping slaves and treating women as baby factories. Hell, why not rebuild the spartan ethos of male homosexuality in a soldier elite caste who rule the nation? After all, correct behaviour is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
That's kind of my point. Slavery, patriarchy, all of these evils you seem to want to force me to defend (which is very obnoxious, btw) are the result of social engineering. And yet, you want to use social engineering to impose your worldview, because...you're right, unlike everyone else?
Besides, other than broad trends, it is exceptionally difficult to perform social engineering towards a vague goal of "niceness" to all people. Ever tried herding cats? It is however significantly easier to work through fear and prejudice to enforce outcomes.
Congratulations, you have just given yourself license to be a self-righteous bully. You decide you know what is right better than everyone else, and you give yourself permission to use fear and prejudice to force conformity with your goals on others. Like I said: terrifying.
I wouldn't call it trolling. It's just a controversial topic that leads to people getting frustrated.
Wait so what makes something deliberate and what not? Would not suffrage and activism social engineering and not the natural way? Thing is, slavery, patriarchy, etc are just as engineered as the suffrage move. Because at some point, most people wanted it to stay that way and it took people speaking out and trying to make change occur bad. Engineering is a tool for "good" and "bad" and I put "" around them because that implies things being one way or the other and not just arbitrary.
Also you are putting words into others as much as others are you.
Congratulations, you have just given yourself license to be a self-righteous bully. You decide you know what is right better than everyone else, and you give yourself permission to use fear and prejudice to force conformity with your goals on others. Like I said: terrifying.
If I have to use fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost-fanatical devotion to the Pope (and a snappy red outfit) in order to get people to stop being asshats to female gamers because they're female... or just females in general... then I'll do that.
By hook or by crook, this is the mother-fethin' 21st century. As a society, we should be long past such stupid things as gender inequality in the workplace, in societal constructs, in social expectations, in domestic life, in politics, and especially in our PretendyFunTimes hobbies. And yet... here we are.
There's no excuse for that kind of BS when you sit down at my gaming table, and I don't tolerate it. It is a thing I will not countenance for long.
Nothing "grows organically" in a society, save that it is an impression that has a basis in the status quo with the force of tradition behind it, and those organic growths are, without fail, enforcements of racial and gender stereotypes and discriminators.
We would have never grown away from slavery organically, this is why it required the deaths of a million Americans in a civil war to contest the issue, and then an additional century of civil rights struggles, and we're *still* judging people based on the color of their skin! We are not "growing organically" into a post-racial society, it still requires people to take action, to say "racism has no place here, it is unacceptable, it is not appreciated, and it will not be tolerated" in the work-place, in the home, out in the streets, and in the hobby shop.
Psienesis wrote: If I have to use […] an almost-fanatical devotion to the Pope […] in order to get people to stop being asshats to […] just females in general... then I'll do that.
That is so not going to help you . Congratulations for your determination, though.
Psienesis wrote: If I have to use fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost-fanatical devotion to the Pope (and a snappy red outfit) in order to get people to stop being asshats to female gamers because they're female... or just females in general... then I'll do that.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.' - Nietzsche
By hook or by crook, this is the mother-fethin' 21st century. As a society, we should be long past such stupid things as gender inequality in the workplace, in societal constructs, in social expectations, in domestic life, in politics, and especially in our PretendyFunTimes hobbies. And yet... here we are.
"Gender inequality in our PretendyFunTimes hobbies." How can you type this and take yourself seriously?
There's no excuse for that kind of BS when you sit down at my gaming table, and I don't tolerate it. It is a thing I will not countenance for long.
Then don't tolerate it at your table.
Nothing "grows organically" in a society, save that it is an impression that has a basis in the status quo with the force of tradition behind it, and those organic growths are, without fail, enforcements of racial and gender stereotypes and discriminators.
That's simply not true. Look at how much people's opinions on gay marriage have change in just the span of a decade, from a majority against to a majority for. Nobody imposed that on people. That was just a result of gay people coming out and being more visible, and a cadre of writers in Hollywood who dedicated themselves to presenting likable gay characters. You can't force people to be open-minded, all you can do is be honest and show them the truth.
We would have never grown away from slavery organically, this is why it required the deaths of a million Americans in a civil war to contest the issue, and then an additional century of civil rights struggles, and we're *still* judging people based on the color of their skin! We are not "growing organically" into a post-racial society, it still requires people to take action, to say "racism has no place here, it is unacceptable, it is not appreciated, and it will not be tolerated" in the work-place, in the home, out in the streets, and in the hobby shop.
Yeah. This would be a much stronger argument if racism was natural and organic, and not the result of a deliberate effort by powerful social institutions to legitimize the industrialization of the slave trade in the 17th century. We didn't grow organically into a racist society,
And really, this should be a clue as to how utterly ridiculous and self-righteous you people are. You are not abolitionists. You are not fighting slavery. You're talking about changing a tabletop wargame so that it appeals to a different audience.
Stop pretending that the goals you have set out are meaningful. This is not social justice activism, this is lazy slacktivism.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah. This would be a much stronger argument if racism was natural and organic, and not the result of a deliberate effort by powerful social institutions to legitimize the industrialization of the slave trade in the 17th century. We didn't grow organically into a racist society,
Does that explain why Arabs were, and are still pretty racists toward black people? And Iranians toward Arabs and Turks. Or why East-Asian are usually very racists among themselves? Or all those other racism all around the world?
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.' - Nietzsche
I'm a very strong believer in the idea of thought-crime. There are certain beliefs that one can hold that are simply not conducive to a stable, productive, beneficial society, especially a society built upon the ideals of liberal democracy. Such beliefs need to be countered when and wherever they are found, to show that such beliefs are, flat out, wrong to hold. I don't care that the Constitution gives you (non-specific) the right to believe in racist things... by the same token, the Constitution gives me the right, as a private citizen, to tell you that having such beliefs in my presence is going to earn you my ire and derision, because racist and sexist beliefs are, to me, sure signs of ignorance, and I do not tolerate ignorant people for long, and the Constitution also gives me the right to bounce you out of my business if I don't want to do business with sexists or racists.
That's simply not true. Look at how much people's opinions on gay marriage have change in just the span of a decade, from a majority against to a majority for. Nobody imposed that on people. That was just a result of gay people coming out and being more visible, and a cadre of writers in Hollywood who dedicated themselves to presenting likable gay characters. You can't force people to be open-minded, all you can do is be honest and show them the truth.
There have been gay rights marches, protests, and actions for going on fifty years now. Ever heard of the Stonewall Riots?
This is not a "new" thing. The idea that Americans are to be recognized as having equal rights in the eyes of the law, goes back to the founding of the country, but it is an ideal that we have never, ever lived up to.
Yeah. This would be a much stronger argument if racism was natural and organic, and not the result of a deliberate effort by powerful social institutions to legitimize the industrialization of the slave trade in the 17th century. We didn't grow organically into a racist society.
Actually, we did. We went from having slavery being a thing enforced, and enabled, by the Age of Imperialism, and the economic systems that made it an attractive industry, into being a common feature in society. This lead to the organically-grown belief that white people, by dint of being born white, were automatically superior to black people. This further extended itself to include only white people from certain countries, and who were members of certain religions. No one forced white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants to believe that they were a superior group to Irish Catholics or Italians, or Greeks, or Spaniards... but that was certainly an organic outgrowth of the slavery system in the United States of the 19th century and the waves of immigrants to the United States during the 1800s. This belief persisted until well into the 20th century and is, in fact, still present now in some sectors.
And really, this should be a clue as to how utterly ridiculous and self-righteous you people are. You are not abolitionists. You are not fighting slavery. You're talking about changing a tabletop wargame so that it appeals to a different audience.
Stop pretending that the goals you have set out are meaningful. This is not social justice activism, this is lazy slacktivism.
If that's what you think, then you don't really understand what social justice is. I'm not *just* talking about changing a tabletop wargame. I fight racism and sexism wherever I find it, whether that's at my place of business (which is, thankfully, very forward-thinking in most of its policies when it comes to such things), out at a public restaurant or some other social setting, and, yes, at the gaming table, where I tend to spend a good percentage of my time.
Inclusiveness should not hurt anyone, and anyone it does hurt is being hurt because they, for some reason, are holding onto ideas that serve an exclusionary agenda, whether that agenda be against female gamers, male gamers, trans gamers, straight gamers, gay gamers, bisexual gamers, Christian gamers, non-Christian gamers, white gamers, black gamers, red, yellow, green, purple or neon-clear gamers. There's no room for that kind of BS at my gaming table, and I won't tolerate it.
friendlycommissar wrote: Yeah. This would be a much stronger argument if racism was natural and organic, and not the result of a deliberate effort by powerful social institutions to legitimize the industrialization of the slave trade in the 17th century. We didn't grow organically into a racist society,
Does that explain why Arabs were, and are still pretty racists toward black people? And Iranians toward Arabs and Turks. Or why East-Asian are usually very racists among themselves? Or all those other racism all around the world?
This is exactly why I hate it when you people try to conflate sexism and racism, because its just an argument that goes nowhere. Suffice to say that racism is a very complicated subject, and that when we talk about racism in the context of slavery and the ongoing conflicts between whites and people of color, we're talking about the consequences of the promotion of
and I have zero interest in arguing about it with someone in a conversation about female players in 40k.
Look, you're NOT going to be engaging in any massive social engineering programs to completely alter the way men and women interact, so why even pretend that's a serious topic worthy of any discussion? Here's the problem: Women aren't interested in playing Warhammer as it currently exists. You seem completely oblivious to the actual reasons why that is. You want to change that even though it wouldn't really accomplish anything meaningful and would probably ruin the game for a lot of people, and would definitely drive a lot of people out of the community. You can't really explain why it should be changed except to vaguely imply that everyone who thinks you're tilting at windmills is a racist-sexist-homophobe.
All you people do with these kinds of arguments is make people think feminists are awful, self-righteous jerks. Is that really what you want to devote your time too?
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Psienesis wrote: I'm a very strong believer in the idea of thought-crime.
Stopped reading there. Welcome to my ignore file, you silly, silly person.
Inkubas wrote: While I applaud women in the hobby/game, I find that the vast majority of players I see are men. I've tried to get my wife into the game and while she likes the idea of Salamanders and flaming things, it's been a no-go for me. My friend (the guy I split my first Dark Vengeance box set with) has also tried to get his long time girlfriend to play and it bores her to tears. She at least likes to paint units/models and even though she doesn't know the game has enough sense on tactics to help him with a few games against me here and there...
What are some of the experiences that you guys have come across with female players? Is there something about the hobby or the community that is a deterrent? Are you guys seeing more women players? If you're a female player, what has got you to start and continue playing the game?
Personally, I'm going to try to get my wife to paint a few figures. After she paints a few and grows attached to them, I'm going to get her to play a few games then, hopefully, apocalypse games!
Two of my ex's (Wife and Girlfriend) played WFB and 40k respectively. My ex GF was very competitive to the point that we faced each other in a GT and I got dumped after I won - no loss to me.
My current GF isn't one to play the games or paint models, but she does appreciate painted models as an art form and she's willing to make some terrain and boards when we get our house.
And you do know the way you argue just makes people see you as at least slightly sexist right? Anyways, you've devoted just as much time if not more to this argument.
Crimson wrote: If there indeed are male players that would be driven off by inclusion of women (which I greatly doubt), then good riddance!
Basically, it all boils down to who one cares more about. You care more about the girls that want to play, Friendly Commissar cares more about the insecure dweebs that would feel uncomfortable when there are women around…
Those guys would reeeaallllyyyyy benefit from having a little female interaction in there lives.
friendlycommissar wrote: Look, you're NOT going to be engaging in any massive social engineering programs to completely alter the way men and women interact, so why even pretend that's a serious topic worthy of any discussion?
Because it's not a massive social engineering program. Other hobbies are able to have much better gender balance without excluding people or constantly making them uncomfortable, the only difference between those situations and gaming is that certain gaming communities tolerate behavior that would get you kicked out of a group elsewhere. Expecting people to live up to minimum standards for good behavior in public is not an unreasonable demand.
Women aren't interested in playing Warhammer as it currently exists. You seem completely oblivious to the actual reasons why that is.
No, you just refuse to accept that the reasons have a lot to do with how the community treats them, not the concept of a tabletop wargame.
You want to change that even though it wouldn't really accomplish anything meaningful and would probably ruin the game for a lot of people, and would definitely drive a lot of people out of the community.
And you know what? Those changes and excluding those people would be good things. If your game is ruined because there are more female characters (who aren't just there to be sex objects) then I don't want you in my hobby anyway. If you're going to ragequit because the community won't tolerate you being a creepy every time a woman enters the store then, again, I want you gone. Feel free to come back when you're capable of being a decent person.
Stopped reading there. Welcome to my ignore file, you silly, silly person.
Ah, that old classic. When you can't deal with the substance of an argument just make a big deal about how you're blocking the person making it.
StarTrotter wrote: And you do know the way you argue just makes people see you as at least slightly sexist right? Anyways, you've devoted just as much time if not more to this argument.
I find that anything but mindless, unthinking agreement will get one accused of sexism. But I'm not sexist in the slightest. I'm just aware of how humans actually behave, which you and the others remain blissfully ignorant of. There's nothing sexist about being aware that many women silently reject and ostracize men who aren't attractive by society's standards. That's just understanding how people actually act. You just have to open your eyes and observe the world around you and you see it happening everywhere, all the time.
It's really telling that you people conflate race and sex all the time, its why you're always confusing sexism with heterosexuality. See, race is a social construct, it doesn't actually exist on the genetic level. It's an illusion. There are no meaingful physical differences between blacks and whites.
But sex is real. Hormones are real. Phremones are real. We have different races because powerful elites constructed a concept of race to suite their needs in the Age of Imperialism. We have a concept of gender because humans reproduce sexuallly. Men and women are attracted to each other for biological reasons and that shapes a tremendous amount of human social interaction. And sex does create additional complications when men and women co-mingle.
Some people find those complications stressful, and want to avoid them. For some people it can be really, intensely painful to be confronted with the absolute disinterest of the opposite sex. Calling that sexism and comparing it to racism is really ridiculous. Really, it just displays a lack of compassion that is really sad. And to mask it as social justice, that's a real tragedy.
friendlycommissar wrote: But sex is real. Hormones are real. Phremones are real. We have different races because powerful elites constructed a concept of race to suite their needs in the Age of Imperialism. We have a concept of gender because humans reproduce sexuallly. Men and women are attracted to each other for biological reasons and that shapes a tremendous amount of human social interaction. And sex does create additional complications when men and women co-mingle.
Some people find those complications stressful, and want to avoid them. For some people it can be really, intensely painful to be confronted with the absolute disinterest of the opposite sex. Calling that sexism and comparing it to racism is really ridiculous. Really, it just displays a lack of compassion that is really sad. And to mask it as social justice, that's a real tragedy.
So why doesn't my group all start trying to screw the one girl in our group and does this mean because I'm bisexual I can't join either group because I could potentially want to get in a relationship and/or feth them?
The problem is, what you said comes off as a bunch of guys hiding in a treefort with a NO GIRLS ALLOWED sign
friendlycommissar wrote: There's nothing sexist about being aware that many women silently reject and ostracize men who aren't attractive by society's standards.
Well, as long as you're talking about men that other men would/should also shun. Because that's what we're talking about in this context. Women who join gaming groups aren't shunning men who just aren't 10/10 hot, they're shunning men who are creepy and obnoxious s that I wouldn't want to be around either.
Men and women are attracted to each other for biological reasons and that shapes a tremendous amount of human social interaction. And sex does create additional complications when men and women co-mingle.
I guess gay and bisexual people don't exist in your world?
Some people find those complications stressful, and want to avoid them.
So we need to exclude women from your precious male-dominated hobby so that creepy awkward men can have a "safe" place to be creepy and awkward?
For some people it can be really, intensely painful to be confronted with the absolute disinterest of the opposite sex.
So then play the game just like you're playing the game with another guy, don't start obsessively fantasizing about any woman who happens to walk into the store. If you don't look at every member of your preferred gender as a potential date then you won't be disappointed when you don't get one.
The couple of other gaming girls I know I didn't really know all that well to comment on, 
s that you can't easily avoid, and sports games tend to be played offline in male-dominated groups as part of a "guy thing".
