Every unit gains Furious Charge
Dante and Seth moved to Lord of War slots
Sanguinary Priests moved to HQ Death Company and DC Dreads moves to Elites, Librarian Dread to HQ Sanguinary Guard now 5-10 in a squad
Baal Predators moved to HS Assault Marines moved to Fast Attack
Only Terminators have Dedicated LR Reclusiarch gone, Chaplains presumably moved to HQ Honour Guard gone, replaced by Command Squad in Elites
Changes to key units:
Sanguinary Guard dropped to 33 ppm, and cap at 10 models
Tactical Squads given option for Heavy Flamer, points presumably dropped in line with SM codex
DC Jump Packs cost 3 ppm Priests now grant +1WS and FNP to their squad, base 60 points
Only Baals, Rhinos and Razors are Fast
Changes to Characters:
Dante gains Eternal Warrior, and a S+2 AP2 not-unwieldy Axe
Mephiston has chaged a lot:
WSBS S T W I A L A
6 5 5 5 3 5 4 10 2+
Warlord trait: Adamantium will
Lvl 3
Special rules: FC, IC, Fleet, No Fear, Hypnotic Trance: Roll 2D6 if fighting in a challenge: If result is the L of the opponent or more, Mephiston hits on 2+.
Has one unique power: Blessing, he gets S10.
His sword is AP3
Sanguinor drops to a 4++, rerolls hits/wounds in challenges
New Powers, Detachment and Warlord Traits:
Psychic powers are:
Primaris: Blessing. +D3 to A and I to psyker or target character at 12"
1. Malediction. Target unit at 12" takes a Moral test with -2
2. Blessing. Target unit at 18" gets Rage. If they had already that rule, they get +1A instead
3. Blessing. Psyker and his unit get 5++
4. Focussed witch fire. Target makes 2 T tests. Take one W for each failed test. If targed dies, place 5" blast with S4 and AP5.
5. Beam.12" S8, AP1 Lance
6"Blessing. Targe infantry unit, moves 12" in the psychic phase. No charging after this movement
Detachment is nice:
Mandatory 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops
Optional: as usual, but 3 additioanl Elite (Total 4)
Special rule: +1I when charging, all the army, any turn.
Warlord traits are:
1. Warlod gets Rampage
2. Warlord gets +1 I
3. One warlord's weapong gets mastercrafted
4. Warlord gets Adamantium will
5. Warlord gets Descent of the Angles (Dante's trait)
6. 12" fearless bubble
BA Relics:
– Wings of Angels: Model gets jump infantry. He and his unit may re-roll scatter AND mishap table results. Intercepting units may only make snapshot when shooting at this unit.
– Crown of Angels: Model causes fear and the test must be made by -2 on moral check.
– Gallian's Stave: +2S, AP4, Melee, Concussive, Force, Channeled Rolls: Re-roll 1s in psychic tests - although additional 1s do damage the bearer (hard to read) (unclear what it means)
– Blade of Courage: S Bearer, AP2, Melee
– Veritas Vitae: Bearer gets an additional warlord trait from Strategic Traits
– Fury of Baal: 12″, S7, AP2, Pistol, Mastercrafted, Plasma weapon but NO overheating/gets hot
Spoiler:
Warhams-77 wrote: The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
But on topic, I for see SangGuard and Dante seeing a lot of play, with the points drops all round and Dante maybe being the first character to actually deserve a LoW slot. I imagine Triple/Quad Flamer-Tacs will be the go to troops choices, with Melta-toting Assaults in FA for tankbusting mobility (especially if they get 2 for 5 on specials). HQ will probably be a mix of Reliced up Captains, Priests and Librarians, with Mehpiston used in death stars now he's an IC.
Personally, aside from expanding my SG and grabbing another Tac squad or two, I don't expect to change things up that much, although I might have to rethink my Assault Marine Delivery Method if we've lost the Flying Land Raiders of Awesome.
I'm probably gonna get myself a Land Raider now that I have Termies being delivered to me as we speak. Maybe another Baal since I only own one, but for the most part my troops are in a good standing with two squads of Tacticals, Assault, and Devastators each. Maybe also get my hands on a Mephiston model and more DC marines.
Super disappoint we didn't get the Talon flyer.
Sorry Paradigm, I didn't mean to step on any toes. Copied your list of changes to OP.
To me Grav Guns and Heavy Flamers look like they'll be the biggest changes in how we do things.
I haven't been able to get a straight answer out of anyone if Drop Pods have been moved to the Fast Attack slot, like what was done for Space Wolves. If so, Blood Angels would become a lot more attractive as allied forces.
There has been a lot of mentions of the triple flamer tac squad. Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and combiflamer/hand flamer sgt. May just annoy MEQ, but would put the hurt on anything in lighter armor.
It doesn't look like Blood Angels will get Centurion Armor, but there is also the possibility of Drop Pod Grav Centurions Allies with FADPs.
I am a completely new Blood Angels convert. I bought the Deathstorm box and am battling (perhaps losing?) with whether to start up the army. I am quite inexperienced with Blood Angels - no one in my group plays them. I have a few questions:
1). What are Blood Angels players going to do with the Troop slot now?
- Is Cassor the Damned worth it as a Troop?
- What about Raphens Death Company? Is it better to build these less haphazard as part of a larger Death Company squad instead?
2). How do people normally kit their Death Company units? Expendable bodies for a few hammers and fists?
adamsouza wrote:Sorry Paradigm, I didn't mean to step on any toes. Copied your list of changes to OP.
Hah, no worries! Two threads are better than one, as they say!
rollawaythestone wrote:I am a completely new Blood Angels convert. I bought the Deathstorm box and am battling (perhaps losing?) with whether to start up the army. I am quite inexperienced with Blood Angels - no one in my group plays them. I have a few questions:
1). What are Blood Angels players going to do with the Troop slot now?
- Is Cassor the Damned worth it as a Troop?
- What about Raphens Death Company? Is it better to build these less haphazard as part of a larger Death Company squad instead?
2). How do people normally kit their Death Company units? Expendable bodies for a few hammers and fists?
For troops, Cassor is decent enough;: he's identical toa regular DC Dread you'd find in Elites, so there's nothing to lose by taking him here. The DC I'd build with JP and maybe one Power Weapon, the rest bare, clocking in at 130 points for a very dangerous unit. In troops, Flamer Tactical Squads in Pods are looking very nice, and Scouts pack a rather nice punch even if you want to keep them cheap.
Warhams-77 wrote: The Black Library Blog shows some more images from the Digital Blood Angels Codex
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems you missed the codex leaks on 4chan last night. It was from the english book this time
...the Storm Raven *is* FA.
..., and the Vindicator (1XX pts barebones) *can* take overcharged engines for 10 pts.
I'm sitting here with the english book right in front of me. Vindicator has the [fast] option as the first option, right before siege shields.
All army-wide special rules outside of Combat Squads are gone. Everybody has Furious Charge.
Detachment has 4 elites, one of which is mandatory, warlord reroll and +1I on the charge for everything.
Warlord traits: Rampage, +1I, Mastercrafted for a weapon, Adamantium Will, Fearless for EVERY friendly imperial unit within 12", reroll reserves and scatter for Jump, Flyer and Skimmer.
Relics: Fear at -2Ld, one free strategic warlord trait, MC plasma pistol, no-frills AP2 melee weapon, jump pack that allows to reroll scatter and mishap & forces Interceptors to only snapfire at wearer, force maul that allows rerolling 1s one psy tests at the danger of taking a wound if the reroll is also a 1.
Sanguinary Discipline: +d3I and A for a character, morale check at -2Ld, grants Rage or +1A if you already have that, 5++ for unit, some gakky focussed witchfire, a S8 AP1 Beam Lance and one that moves a unit 12" ignoring terrain, but counts as moved for shooting and can't charge.
Most rhino-chassis vehicles lost fast and must now buy it as vehicle gear for xx pts.
Jump Packs are now x pts per model for units.
Assault squads are FA now.
Vanguard & Sternguard are now the same as the C:SM ones.
Death Company are elite now. Trade 1WS for Rage.
Lemartes is a seperate elite choice now. Fury Unbound is once per game now.
Sanguinary Priests are now HQ, one guy per slot. Give FnP and +1WS.
Corbulo has 6" aura of +1WS/I.
Tycho lost all melee weapons and special ammo.
Astorath's axe now causes ID on a 6 to-wound and is two-handed, but is otherwise a poweraxe.
Dreads are now split into Librarian(HQ), Furioso (Elite), Death Company (Elite) and staddard (elite).
Furioso Force Halberd is a powerfist with Force but without Specialist Weapon, so no +1A.
DC dread lost 1WS and 1A.
Furioso is NOT venerable.
Sanguinary Guard maxes out at 10, death masks grant Fear.
Tacticals may take a heavy flamer for a heavy weapon and a grav gun for a special weapon.
inferno pistol and hand flamer are availiable to all characters but scout sergeants.
Dante is a LoW and got a massive buff. Axe is now S+2 AP2 Mastercrafted. Dante gets Eternal Warrior, a free tactical warlord trait on top of his Descent of Angels and a 6" fear bubble.
Seth is a LoW and has Rage, Rampage and causes two hits for any 6 rolled to hit.
Land Raiders lost Deep Strike and are now Heavy Support.
Got the new WD today, there's a Flesh Tearers formation in it. I'd post pics, but mine is in german, so it'd be useless.
It consists of 3 tactical squads, 1 assault squad, 1 vanguard squad and 1 furioso.
The entire formation ignores disordered charges and are stubborn as long as the vanguard vets are alive. They also all gain +1I on the charge.
Yeah, that formation sounds pretty good. Same bonus as the BA Detachment, but also being able to multi charge without penalty is pretty good, especially if you're running flamer Tacticals. Burn out a unit, charge what's left of it and hopefully clip something else as well!
Call it a hunch, but I think the number of people being alarmed by charging Tacticals in the near future is going to skyrocket! I've always been a fan of pulling out the pistols and combat knives and going to work, with S5 I5 it'll be even sweeter.
I'm too busy wondering if the new Tactical box is a way of apologizing for making ASM FA now, or is moving the ASM simply a way of selling the new kit...?
Okay, moving on.
What the old BA armies looked like:
massed ASM in Land Raiders (impossible now)
Mephiston + Corbulo bothers (still possible, but not worth it at all as Corbulo got massive nerf)
Fast Vehicles (still possible, altough Razorbackspam isn't as doable anymore).
The red wave of ASM (doable, but not in the same way as you can't have them as troops).
So what's going to follow (I suppose):
- DC will be used more. With cheap Jump Packs you can finally get them into a combat without investing third of your points.
- Tacticals are now the only choice except for Scouts so obviously more of them
- Assault Marines might still be worth it but not in large numbers. I believe that I will use a single squad of ten Marines to deliever my HQ into battle.
- Dante might be used nowadays.
The new formation is Elite heavy, but does anyone have an idea of what we're going to do with it?
Death Company? Terminators? Dreadnoughts? All valid options for sure, but now that Priests are moved to HQ it's not half as usable.
In thinking all my Elite slots will see play most of the time. DC with a HS Land Raider in one, Sanguinary Guard with JPHQ or Dante in the second, SH Termies in the third, and either a Dread or Sternguard in the 4th.
At least one Priest in HQ, and I'll be asking my opponents if they mind me taking TDA at the old cost just so my conversions don't go to waste. If they let me, they roll with the Termies, if not I'll slap on a JP and run them with the SangGuard. Other HQ will be Librarian or Reliced up Captain (that AP2 Sword and DoAJP look nice).
Troops I'm looking at a pair of Tacticals in Rhinos with variable weapons, FA will be 2 sets of podding Assaults, maybe with Meltas.
In all, it'll be the same very aggressive and DS heavy army I've always run, just with some new tricks. While there are things I don't like about this book (character blanderising, Priests moved) I think it's shaping up to be quite nasty.
DC with packs will finally be cheap enough to bother with, which is exciting. You can give a 5 man tac squad a melta gun and put them in the old razorback, which is still pretty good. More expensive by a bit than the old way, but tac marines really are a lot better than assaults. Sanguinary Priests can be our compulsory HQs, so even if captains didn't get good, we're ok. I'm bummed about the force org changes, but this codex really does look to be pretty powerful.
Assault Squad
Baal/vanilla Predator or a Vindicator.
This would be something like 1500 points I suppose.
Uses a lot of my old figures and might be worth trying. Maybe a third Dread for uneven Drop Pods...?
Using Priests as compulsory HQ isn't a bad idea. But on the other hand, we might have some actually good HQs now so it might not be needed.
The army list I'm toying with at the moment looks like
HQ - ?
TR1 Cassor the Damned
TR2 Tactical Squad (10 Man, Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hand flamer) w/Drop Pod
TR3 Tactical Squad (2, 5 Man, Combat Squads for sqautting on objectives)
EL1 Dreadnaught w/Drop Pod
EL2 Dreadnaught w/Drop Pod
EL3 Dreadnaught w/Drop Pod
EL4 Dreadnaught w/Drop Pod
FA1 Drop Pod (for Cassor)
It's probably not competitive, but it looks like a lot of fun.
TROOP
-10 man tac squad 3flamer (DP)
-10 man cc&bp scouts power sword and camo cloaks
FA -10 man Assault squad, meltas
-10 man Assault squad, meltas
with the scouts and 2 fragiosos in their face turn one, should cover em enough to get the jumpers up field,
mabye dante with the sang guard, mabye a storm raven, and mabye some baals, mabye a sternguard in pod and troop DC dread in pod, dunno yet, this is what im roughly thinking atm
I cannot imagine NOT using the 4 Elites detachment (PS - do we have a name on that?). Every list I imagine starts with 2 x Death Co and 2 xfuriosos in a pod.
i currently have 20 armless death company models, was hoping to get some ideas on some solid weapon loadouts before i start gluing arms down. Any suggestions?
I'm thinking 20 bp/CCW scouts infiltrating up, 3 drop pods of Asm with meltas to crack open vehicles or wound some MC's early, and actually deploy and run up some units of Jump pack DC led by Astorath or some other Jphq, with a fist in each squad. That should be close to 2k, and legal for the +1 init detachment. On turn 2 they will be charged by whatever remains of 3 asm squads and 2 scout squads, which will most likely combat squad to 10 squads, while the DC come across the field to bring the real pain. They could preemptively charge the in-your-face units, but either way, the combats just buy time for the DC.
Not the greatest army, but it seems pretty passable for mid-range competitiveness.
I'm really liking the new Mephiston even if he's not the horrible beat stick he once was, he can still put the hurt on. My only problem with him now is the loss of Wings, I would have loved it if we could Biomancy him up and chuck him in a squad of death co. Or Sanguinary guard but he is just to slow for them now. Perhaps joining a squad of death co, in a drop pod he that would be a horrible unit.
ACK! I tend to have a knack for playing things in one codex that become invalidated by the new one and this is no exception. I've been playing two lists -
Armour spam with 3 dakka preds, 3 Baal preds and some Landraiders along with two libby dreads
Deepstriking Landraider ASM list
Well Crap ....
Thinking of still running the three Baals but using some Storm Ravens in place of the three regular preds. Does anyone have any thoughts on how the Baals will be now that they've lost scout (which was, imo, a pretty pivotal ability for them)?
Tycho wrote: ACK! I tend to have a knack for playing things in one codex that become invalidated by the new one and this is no exception. I've been playing two lists -
Armour spam with 3 dakka preds, 3 Baal preds and some Landraiders along with two libby dreads
Deepstriking Landraider ASM list
Well Crap ....
Thinking of still running the three Baals but using some Storm Ravens in place of the three regular preds. Does anyone have any thoughts on how the Baals will be now that they've lost scout (which was, imo, a pretty pivotal ability for them)?
Now that they lost scout I can see them being taken less often. They are still really good dakka tanks, but not being able to scout/outflank I think will turn some people away.
I plan on still trying them out in a few lists, but you cant spam av13 like we used to anymore.
I've never run Baals myself, but I don't think the loss of Scout is going to hurt them that much. With 2HB and an AC you will still be raining death on light vehicles/infantry early on, and if need be can move Fast and still fire 2 weapons. A free turn of movement is nice, but it's removal is hardly a massive blow to the now cheaper unit.
I have a pretty standard army with each slot filled on even numbers so I think I can work a good list. I probably need to get my hands on more DC and tacticals though. Really excited for this change.
I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.
Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.
FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".
So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.
I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.
I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TLHF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.
If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.
Carnage43 wrote: Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.
FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".
So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.
Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.
Carnage43 wrote: Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.
FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".
So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.
Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.
Well, my money is on GW 'fixing' them to be Elites and at the same time forget to give Cassor a Strength-value. They do have their priorities
Not that it really matters, both units are unique and the DC-squad is too expensive.
Carnage43 wrote: Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.
FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".
So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.
Except that we are talking about GW here, with their thorough and well updated FAQs.
Exactly....you expect them to allow people to have fun with non-crap troops!? They will crush that in record time.
And the new BA codex is exactly why I have been pointing out the weakness of tac marines even after the 5th ed BA codex dropped. It's bad for the game and I knew it would eventually affect me.
I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.
I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TLHF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.
If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.
I was wondering if the new BA book would get you to start posting again. Good to have you back Martel; I always found your POV and opinions interesting.
As for what to do against eldar, nothing leaps out at me from what I’ve seen. I don’t see them doing better against serpent spam then codex marines. You might be able to put together a counter-deathstar if MC/deathstars are what’s bothering you. I suspect that will work better for the BAs then us codex guys.
I love having the heavy flamer as an option, but I really feel like I'm going to get shot before I can use it.
Eldar, from the games I have been observing lately, have evolved beyond pure serpent spam for 7th. However, since most of that book is amazing, it kind of doesn't matter.
I think I prefer the synergy of all flamers or all meltas, just so everything gets used whenever the unit fires. I'm also leaning towards power Swords on Sergeants; hitting with S5 I5 he should be putting a few models in the ground before they can swing back, and makes a good duellist against other characters of a similar level.
I personally like anti-infantry loadouts in a razor with anti-tank, or vice versa. Although the TLHF razor looks less good now that tacs can get heavy flamers.
If anyone has any ideas of how to make this book work against Eldar, I'm all ears. I still have no idea how I would deal with them.
I was wondering if the new BA book would get you to start posting again. Good to have you back Martel; I always found your POV and opinions interesting.
As for what to do against eldar, nothing leaps out at me from what I’ve seen. I don’t see them doing better against serpent spam then codex marines. You might be able to put together a counter-deathstar if MC/deathstars are what’s bothering you. I suspect that will work better for the BAs then us codex guys.
Well, I think it can be said that there's no apparent counter to WS Spam, but the same could be said of any codex out there. Honestly, if there was one in the new BA book I'd probably be alarmed; one build that anomalously powerful is bad for the game, two would be worse.
But against Eldar in general, I think we have a few nice tricks. With Fast Rhinos, we can be in their deployment zone with Flamers and HF on T2, and Assaulting on T3. With permanent Furious Charge most Elder units should crumple even to just Tacticals, and HF/Flamers should do nicely at piling up kills on their squishy Infantry. To deal with the tanks, we have plenty of options for DS Meltas between Assault Marines, Dual-Melta Furiosos and Sternguard (all-melta Command Squads with pods or JP could also fill the role). The mobility they have can be countered by using our own fast units with attached buffing HQs. SangGuard with a Priest or Libby could make nice headhunters, focusing on Elite units that they should be able to catch easily enough.
When dealing with Tau and Eldar, I find 5 is the magic number that gets us wounding on 2s, and with heavy Flamers and FC we should have the measure of them at close range, and with Fast Rhinos and more JP we're better equipped to get there that Codex Marines.
The White Scars would disagree with you, but I get your point. I've been "trying to get there" since 5th ed Necrons and Grey Knights dropped, and it hasn't really worked out.
Honestly, in my few ease-in games to 7th, the ubiquity of rending in the Eldar army killed me more than WS. The jink rule made them non-crazy, merely very strong. Pseudo rending everywhere plus just so much scatter laser firepower. The scatter laser wasn't fair in 5th ed, and has only gotten worse.
True, Scars are probably the best matchup, but I was more meaning that in general, we can get places faster/better than most non-biker SM Armies (maybe Ravens could beat us there, but don't hit as hard once they do).
The pseudo-Rending Everything is an issue that can't really be negated, but on the other hand, with the focus on aggression and damage before retaliation, the short range damage and decent CC ability could again stand BA in better stead than some other SM, although the jury is still out on BA Tacs vs Grey Hunters.
Grey hunters are better. They've always been better. They always will be better. I have accepted this. It's just disappointing to be worse than the SW. Again. And also inferior to the vanilla marines. Really, I'm not sure how many spots up the BA have really moved. It's a much more modern codex to work with, but it's just not clear how it's going to stand up in practice.
Bear in mind the assault cannon is only 24" so loss of scout means it takes effectively and extra turn to bring those guns to bear. Also Outflank was great for getting onto the rear armour of vehicles, I've wrecked countless tanks through that move.
Also it's pretty full in the HS slots, are Baals going to be top of my list for the slot? I need to see the dex first but suspect I'll be fielding my dual Baal less than before.
evildrcheese wrote: Bear in mind the assault cannon is only 24" so loss of scout means it takes effectively and extra turn to bring those guns to bear. Also Outflank was great for getting onto the rear armour of vehicles, I've wrecked countless tanks through that move.
Also it's pretty full in the HS slots, are Baals going to be top of my list for the slot? I need to see the dex first but suspect I'll be fielding my dual Baal less than before.
D
Bearing in mind it can move 12" and still fire two weapons at full BS, I'm still not convinced that the loss is an issue. It can still hit a foot into the enemy DZ on the first turn, the only way it would be losing out on a turn would be in enemy literally deployed as far away as possible, and frankly, they're not scary enough to warrant that.
Well, furious charge means that instead of making a single S6 grenade attack in melee per marine, you can make their full complement at S5 when charging WS or other vehicles. So, you also have that vs. codex marines.
A 5 man scout squad should be able to drop a serpent on a charge, meaning a couple of those plus some guys in pods can become a sizable nuisance if you get more into the enemy's zone than he can comfortably kill turn 1.
The importance of the +1I cannot be overstated IMO. Now BA units can kills other MEQ before they even attack, and even if they aren't wiped out, there will be too few left to do any meaningful damage to the BA squad.
I also think giving a BA Sgt a power sword is a must. That I5 is just too good to pass up.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: The importance of the +1I cannot be overstated IMO. Now BA units can kills other MEQ before they even attack, and even if they aren't wiped out, there will be too few left to do any meaningful damage to the BA squad.
I also think giving a BA Sgt a power sword is a must. That I5 is just too good to pass up.
Agreed. A Vet Sarge with a Sword is putting 2-3 MEQ in the ground before they swing back. Not a big deal against Tacticals, but that robbing GH with CCW of 3 Attacks per model he kills, and that's before you consider what that same roll would do against Vanguard Vets, Death Co, hell, he even puts down 40+ points of Thunderwolf on average!
The key will be ensuring you always get the charge, but that isn't all that hard to arrange.
As an eldar player following with mild interest: Dem DC tho. I've been trying to see what the base points cost is on them, and haven't found it. But if comparable to last codex 22ish points for T4 3+ FnP Fearless furious charge I5 Rage monsters with jet packs. Yes, please and thank you. People were mentioning earlier about WS spam and how to deal with it, you're answer's right there. A WS can kill ~2 DC a turn after armor and FnP, and you're only going to have 5 or so WS in a list maximum. Pack in some melta on your DC to force the jink on the turn they DS, then charge next turn. Jinking will drastically reduce the dmg output of the WS, so the option is to Flat out (losing a turn of shooting) to get away, or move 12 shoot and end up assaulted. If they run, take your hidden TH/PF/Dante in the squad and go after the now abandoned WK's.
Outside of DC, I'm actually pretty disappointed in the rest of the codex. 4 melta suicide AMs is cool I suppose, but I don't see them seeing much outside of that. Cool dreads, to bad dreads aren't good. Not sure if Meph gets access to biomancy or not, but either way getting to hide in a unit is a sideways change to his durability. Sang guard are probably too expensive for what they do, Dante might be worth it if you're DS'ng a lot of Jump units. Priests getting pushed into HQand being 0-1 for the slot was moronic, one or the other would have been fine. Will be interesting to see if the FnP from priests/Corbulo is BA only (I suspect it is) or not, would make for interesting allies if not. Hi thundrwolf Cav with BA priest on a bike.
Here's hoping you all have some hidden gems in there that aren't being released/appreciated by the leakers. As is, nothing I've seen is blowing up my skirt.
Subbed. DC are looking VERY scary. Librarian dreadnought should be awesome with new powers. Increased initiative and attacks is all dreadnoughts needed to take 'em out before they get hit back. Librarian dreadnought and DC in a Stormraven.
I'm thinking a BA captain with Angel's Wing, Veritus Vitae, and the AP2 sword would make for a pretty boss warlord. Decently punchy and survivable and good at buffing the army with double traits and good at getting a death company or a terminator unit into position via deep strike.
I'm really liking the rumors for a drop pod based BA army with deep striking DC or terminators in support. I think this army would be a great fit for a Damocles command rhino too.
Kavish wrote: Subbed. DC are looking VERY scary. Librarian dreadnought should be awesome with new powers. Increased initiative and attacks is all dreadnoughts needed to take 'em out before they get hit back. Librarian dreadnought and DC in a Stormraven.
Lacking grenades make me sad for the dread though..
Man, my Salamanders look like chumps compared to all the burny goodness BAtac squads can bring now. 4 template weapons in one squad is no joke (especially now that this thread has convinced me that you fire and resolve wounds for mixed template weapons all at once). I'm thinking there's no need to go with the Heavy Flamer - I would rather run 5 mans in fast laspas razorbacks. That seems like a really cute little bundle of firepower to flesh out your troops.
I'm feeling pretty meh about ASM and Vanguards, but I'm assuming BA bikes are now basically identical to vanilla marines? Running gravbikes alongside Death Company and Furiouso Dreads sounds delicious. I also really like the Sanguinary Priest as an HQ choice. I've never much cared for the cheap vanilla marine HQs, I always ended up just hiding them to avoid losing points to warlord kills. He seems like a good choice to embed in a Terminator or Sangunary Guard squad.
DanielBeaver wrote: Man, my Salamanders look like chumps compared to all the burny goodness BAtac squads can bring now. 4 template weapons in one squad is no joke (especially now that this thread has convinced me that you fire and resolve wounds for mixed template weapons all at once). I'm thinking there's no need to go with the Heavy Flamer - I would rather run 5 mans in fast laspas razorbacks. That seems like a really cute little bundle of firepower to flesh out your troops.
I'm feeling pretty meh about ASM and Vanguards, but I'm assuming BA bikes are now basically identical to vanilla marines? Running gravbikes alongside Death Company and Furiouso Dreads sounds delicious. I also really like the Sanguinary Priest as an HQ choice. I've never much cared for the cheap vanilla marine HQs, I always ended up just hiding them to avoid losing points to warlord kills. He seems like a good choice to embed in a Terminator or Sangunary Guard squad.
Apparently the bikes cannot have grav guns. They also don't benefit from vanilla chapter tactics that make bikes top notch.
Here's a thing. If your opponent is cool with unbound (I haven't come across anyone who is opposed to it, but I don't play power lists) just use as many elites and HQ as you want! Sure, you'll lose I5, but a sang priest in every squad? Yes please.
Grav bikers with sang priest on bike. Nice!
sang guard with Dante and sang priest with jump pack. *drool*
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aww no grav bikers. :(
If only the Chapter Master could be fielded by BA, I've always wanted to field Castellan Zargo (CM of Angels Encarmine).
Never the less anyone else think a BA Captain with the Ap2 sword Relic, the Relic Jumpack, Artificier Armor and Inferno Pistol is a solid HQ? You get 5 S5 Ap2 attacks on the charge at I6, and if he somehow doesn't kill what you charge (not gonna be stupid and charge a Bloodthirster or Swarmlord), he should be able to survive when they strike back.
You have to ask yourself what the point cost of the captain compared to Dante is at that point. Dante brings all the same stats plus some as well as bunch of other special rules.
Well, I have a full BA company with jump packs.
I'm planning for 2 times 10 DC with jump packs,
3 Baals, and Scouts as troops.
But how about HQ and anti air?
But otherwise another option is ether the storm reven and chuck your scouts into it (maybe give one a melta bomb so you can clutch assault a vehicle that needs dieing) or get some kinda fortification.
AT martel: its probably because he doesn't only play against Eldar. please explain to me how the baals are fail? can you even do it without comparing it to another army?
For AA your options are Stormraven, Fortifications or just ignoring it (with a list like that, you should be far enough forward that many fliers will just overshoot you when they come on, so that is a legitimate option). You could also bring the Stormwing formation to get some Talons in, but that would be expensive. Depending on how far you're going with Scouts, I think an ADL with Quad could be a good option. Deploy it on the centre line, infiltrate your scouts on it, and T1 gain a 4+ cover for your jumpers as well!
HQ I'd take a pair of JP Libbies to run with the DC for Prescience or BA magic if you can afford them.
Baals kill mainly light/medium infantry. Boltguns and S4 hth attacks also kill light/medium infantry. The new BA codex has those things in spades. The BA don't need a streep sweeper tank in their heavy slot. They need something to engage armor and 2+ armor saves.
Tri-las pred is nothing special against Eldar. They just jink it and "LULZ stupid Imperium! Bring your meqs closer so we can pseudo-rend them all to death!" I'm not bitter, honest.
The tri-las pred is good in a general sense. Decent durability, can fire all weapons after 6" move. Kills stuff that it is pointed at.
Desubot wrote: Jump captain with ap2 sword and maybe a priest.
Why bother with a jump captain when you are running another HQ? Dante will whip any captain you can make by a large margin.
Anti air would be getting your butt into CC
I don't think I need to explain why that doesn't work.
AT martel: its probably because he doesn't only play against Eldar. please explain to me how the baals are fail? can you even do it without comparing it to another army?
We actually have to play AGAINST other armies...so we should be comparing ourselves against them. When comparing yourself to others, you don't compare yourself to the worst/average, you compare yourself to the best.
Example:
"I completed the 100m dash 4 times faster than the kid with 1 leg!" - no
"I completed the 100m dash 5 seconds behind the world record!" - yes
No one cares about the worst, as the obstacles to over come are the best.
We have a good many options now for our HQ slot. Captain withan ap2 sword is fine, and will provide a decent combat character for not a lot of points, but we have better options. Librarians seem awesome with the new sanguinary discipline and the special force staff, sanguinary priests are good (duh), and librarian dreads seem awesome too.
So if you sit there compare anything and everything to eldar its obviously going to look bad
that is an issue with Eldar and hardly makes a Baal a complete fail.
I suggested a regular Cap as quite a lot of peeps have issues with LOW and named characters. its just the middle ground.
If you are locked in combat, you are not getting roasted by hell drakes no? obviously if you are playing on nothing but a flat open desert then any army will wreck a assault based army.
Against Eldar three trilas Predators could work, but only if they are fast.
Over the years, players have thrown all kind of things against my Falcons/Serpents and nothing has really worked.
Desubot wrote: So if you sit there compare anything and everything to eldar its obviously going to look bad
that is an issue with Eldar and hardly makes a Baal a complete fail.
I suggested a regular Cap as quite a lot of peeps have issues with LOW and named characters. its just the middle ground.
If you are locked in combat, you are not getting roasted by hell drakes no? obviously if you are playing on nothing but a flat open desert then any army will wreck a assault based army.
I already explained this. The Baal is a fail because there are much better choices in the heavy slot. That makes it a fail. Not the Eldar. Everything in this codex is equally fail against them.
wuestenfux wrote: Against Eldar three trilas Predators could work, but only if they are fast. Over the years, players have thrown all kind of things against my Falcons/Serpents and nothing has really worked.
Man reminds me of the dumb amount of shooting i did against a single viper that jinked my entire army
Then i assaulted it and it was k.
And too that better choices? its only better choices for you due to the rest of the army being filled with anti infantry. They are still fast thanks with a boat load of shots is less effected by shaken and stun results compared to a tri las and can still shoot compared to a vindi, wont get roasted like devastators, and dont cost an arm and a leg compared to a land raiders.
a Baal is also useful for a few specific armies as well. it can mulch through orks and deldar and guard blobs alike. its a bit redundant but that hardly makes it a fail.
Martel732 wrote: I don't list tailor. The Baal has no place in any list I will ever make with this codex. That's a fail.
Not only the Baals.
As said there are several HS options but none might be the right one in a competitive setting.
Competitive setting and the new BA, this might not get together.
Not quite. I don't understand why you think any BA list needs more S5-6 attacks. This is the same list that can charge for S5 and frag cannon for S6 and is stuck using tac marines for troops.
Yeah, the Baal is fun, and was a defensible use of points when you could outflank it and try getting rear armor shots, but I don't see it as useful now. Anti-infantry is already the best use for many of our best units. It's the same reason the whirlwind will rarely be an efficient use of points - even if it's good enough in a vacuum at it's cost, the things it wants to target will already be getting killed by a Furioso or something.
Martel732 wrote: Not quite. I don't understand why you think any BA list needs more S5-6 attacks. This is the same list that can charge for S5 and frag cannon for S6 and is stuck using tac marines for troops.
Its because tactical alone are not even remotely enough anti infantry when people arent busy dumping 2 troops and the rest into tanks or whatever.
and not everyone plays like that.
or hides everything in serpents.
The redunancy is useful considering charges arent aways viable.
Defensive grenades can mess em up baddly.
I can assure you that the DC doesn't care about defensive grenades.
If target is really obnoxious, I've got drop pod frag cannons, which are way more efficacious than a TLAC and 2 X heavy bolter. And don't suck up a heavy slot.
Martel732 wrote: I can assure you that the DC doesn't care about defensive grenades.
If target is really obnoxious, I've got drop pod frag cannons, which are way more efficacious than a TLAC and 2 X heavy bolter. And don't suck up a heavy slot.
Not everyone takes drop pods. it takes up an elite slot that should be pretty full. IIRC should be more pricy and cant be clutch anti air/fmc. Edit: Also can get locked in combat (not always bad but can get bogged down)
Like i said if thats your opinion and you dont feel like budging then there isnt much to discus.
If you are shooting a Baal at air or fmc, you are in serious trouble already.
The real problem is now the Baal is scrapping with tri-las preds and Stormravens and vindicators for a spot. That just seems crazy to me.
In an army that legitimately is hurting in the anti air sector..
All im saying is they are not imperially trash. not 100% auto takes OMG op nerf now. but they are hardly Vespid levels of trash.
If I want anti-air, I'll just use the Stormraven and get better guns in the process. Strictly speaking, they are not as bad as Vespids, but the competition is too stiff in their slot.
Martel732 wrote: Seems like a lot of effort for mediocre firepower for a heavy slot unit. GWs idea of "front" and "side" don't help at all.
The way they define armor facings might just be my least favorite rule in 40k.
Are regular predators and vindicators priced the same as the vanilla versions? And is supercharging the engines, uh, the cost of two melta bombs, or however we're supposed to say "10"?
The only time this can be an issue is when you are too close and they managed to daisy chain around you. or they have 2 long range that can some how cover greater than 48" at minimum.
The former being your fault for getting too close or picking a bad side, and the lather only really apply to tau or eldar which is already a down hill battle.
or drop pods but thats a different game at that point.
With LR being Termie transports only now, I'm not sure if they are worth getting anymore? would I benefit from a Stormraven better? I'm curious how heavy vehicles and flyers will fair in this edition.
Yes, I'd get a Stormraven. It's more versatile and cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: The only time this can be an issue is when you are too close and they managed to daisy chain around you. or they have 2 long range that can some how cover greater than 48" at minimum.
The former being your fault for getting too close or picking a bad side, and the lather only really apply to tau or eldar which is already a down hill battle.
or drop pods but thats a different game at that point.
Other Imperial armies with lascannons. I've done it to Vindicators for years now.
So on the subject of DC, do you give them a BP + CCW or leave them with a Bolter? I remember that way back in 5e someone Mathhammered it and stated that being able to double tap 2 S4 shots before assaulting was better than have the extra S5 attack on the charge. Does this still hold true?
I never liked the boltguns because I shot myself out of assault range several times. You don't need extra damage against unit being assaulted by DC. They're dead.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So on the subject of DC, do you give them a BP + CCW or leave them with a Bolter? I remember that way back in 5e someone Mathhammered it and stated that being able to double tap 2 S4 shots before assaulting was better than have the extra S5 attack on the charge. Does this still hold true?
I would say it depends. With the variable charge distances and removing casualties from the front, you could very well leave yourself out of charge range. If you are running them in an assault vehicle, I would just load up for close combat. On the other hand, if drop-podding in, a round of double-tapping and then having them for any Overwatch opportunities may be worth it. Although I would probably use that shooting phase to run into better position/cover.
Martel732 wrote: With the new jump pack prices, I would never drop pod in DC now. I didn't like it before, really.
5e DoA is gone though, so they're gonna be a lot more prone to mishaps unless you have a Warlord with the DoA trait with them.
You mean like that one guy in an uncontested slot who just beefed up on steroids and comes with that trait stock? :p
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: Im pretty sure you can with a fast vehicle.
like in what situations would you not be able to without exposing your sides?
Most balanced lists will run 2 of any element, and space them apart. 2 long range anti-tank elements will typically be found in opposing corners in the opponents deployment zone. If your front is facing one, your side is facing the other.
As a new Blood Angels player coming from C:SM, I guess I really can't see why people are hating this codex.
1. Fast Vehicles - Seriously, being starting that Baal Pred, Pred, or Vindicator out at the edge of your deployment zone and likely being able to get in range with all of your weapons is pretty awesome. 2 Melta Bombs for something like that is a steal.
2. Death Company - Quick question: Why would you EVER take a bolt pistol with these guys? I get that the extra attack is cool, but the Bolter tossing out its Rapid Fire is better. You then charge in and mop up with Rage. 5-15 man squads means I won't have problems fielding a ton of blood-crazed maniacs with my FOUR elite slots. I am going to run a full squad of Jump DC with a Chaplain wearing the Wings of Angels. Which brings me to...
3. Relics - YES. I love these relics! The perfected Plasma Pistol, the reroll Scatter and Reserves Jump Pack, the extra Warlord Trait scrolls. Seriously, if you are that concerned about not getting your Descent of Angels, take those scrolls. You will get four shots at getting it. The Jump Pack is a MUST for a Jump focused army.
4. Dante - Blood Angels SAUCE. He starts with DoA and you get another Warlord trait on top of that. Sauce. Initiative: Probably nothing beating you Axe? Handheld Meltagun? All for the low low price of 2.2 TFCs. I guess I will be getting him.
5. Sanguinary Guard - Ten man squads of cheaper, faster Terminators? Yes please!
6. Lemartes - Twenty points off (at the cost of him taking up an extra slot). He did get nerfed some. Still, I love the murderous little bastard.
7. Tactical Squads - FLAMERS! While it might not be the most effective thing, a Cowboy Sergeant, Flamer, and Heavy Flamer squad is going to be pretty cool to run. Pop a few bolt pistol shots and Charge away. Would've liked for them to be able to take a Chainsword though for a couple points. Would've stopped some of the complaints Re: Assault Squads. Maybe GW will pull their heads out their rears and FAQ that.
My only complaints are the fact that Assault Squads can't take Razorback at a 35 pt discount. I would also have like to seen the ability to trade bolters for chainswords on Tactical Squads too. Also, way too much competition for the HS slot. If they left the Baal Pred in FA, I would have bought THREE of them. Instead, I probably will only get two Predators. So they lost out on some purchases there. If they did that, I could have bought two TriLC Preds too. Nope. Lost business there, GeeDubs. I don't even know what I am going to run much for FA. Maybe some Land Speeders or Bike Squads. Actually, a Scout Bike Squad to Infiltrate with a Locator Beacon would be kinda fun. Gonna have a Prelim list based on the stuff I have later.
Very few people are hating the codex, as you put it. They (we) hate some very specific things, and justifiably so.
If you've ever heard that expression about hell being just like heaven, except that you stub your toe every 10 seconds, it's pretty much like that.
I am quite happy to see Dante finally worth his reputation, usable jump pack death company, and more efficient sanguinary guard.
I'm actually really surprised that Glaves kept their master crafted rule. Have you ever gotten into a combat with a bunch of those guys still alive? Each guy can only reroll one hit, so you have to roll each guy's attacks separately.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, in regards to your question about the death company bolter: because you don't want to kill yourself out of charge range. If you make it to combat at all with more than just a couple death company surviving, you're probably winning anyway, so risking a fail charge just for some extra bolter shells is not the greatest idea ever.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a new Blood Angels player coming from C:SM, I guess I really can't see why people are hating this codex.
3. Relics - YES. I love these relics! The perfected Plasma Pistol, the reroll Scatter and Reserves Jump Pack, the extra Warlord Trait scrolls. Seriously, if you are that concerned about not getting your Descent of Angels, take those scrolls. You will get four shots at getting it. The Jump Pack is a MUST for a Jump focused army.
4. Dante - Blood Angels SAUCE. He starts with DoA and you get another Warlord trait on top of that. Sauce. Initiative: Probably nothing beating you Axe? Handheld Meltagun? All for the low low price of 2.2 TFCs. I guess I will be getting him.
Just FYI, I have the book in front of me now, and Dante's warlord trait is Descent of Angels (Army-wide re-rolls for reserves for flyers, skimmers, and jump, as well as reduced scatter for DS), and he has a special rule that allows him to get a Tactical warlord trait, not Blood Angel trait, if the mission you are playing has Tactical Objectives. Also, the "scroll" relic you're talking about only gives a strategic trait, no extra blood angels trait.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a new Blood Angels player coming from C:SM, I guess I really can't see why people are hating this codex.
3. Relics - YES. I love these relics! The perfected Plasma Pistol, the reroll Scatter and Reserves Jump Pack, the extra Warlord Trait scrolls. Seriously, if you are that concerned about not getting your Descent of Angels, take those scrolls. You will get four shots at getting it. The Jump Pack is a MUST for a Jump focused army.
4. Dante - Blood Angels SAUCE. He starts with DoA and you get another Warlord trait on top of that. Sauce. Initiative: Probably nothing beating you Axe? Handheld Meltagun? All for the low low price of 2.2 TFCs. I guess I will be getting him.
Just FYI, I have the book in front of me now, and Dante's warlord trait is Descent of Angels (Army-wide re-rolls for reserves for flyers, skimmers, and jump, as well as reduced scatter for DS), and he has a special rule that allows him to get a Tactical warlord trait, not Blood Angel trait, if the mission you are playing has Tactical Objectives. Also, the "scroll" relic you're talking about only gives a strategic trait, no extra blood angels trait.
Well crap. Oh well. Though it does say when you generate Warlord Traits you can roll on one of the Warlord Trait tables OR you can roll on the Blood Angels table. But yeah, I get what you are saying and it supposed to be the way you are saying it.
I also think someone said Wings of Sanguinius was gone earlier in this thread, but it's not. It's the sixth Sanguinary ability. And Mephiston does have access to Biomancy, as someone was questioning earlier. Oh and he has Strength 10 goodness with Sanguine Sword as his compulsory first psychic ability.
te11ah wrote: I also think someone said Wings of Sanguinius was gone earlier in this thread, but it's not. It's the sixth Sanguinary ability. And Mephiston does have access to Biomancy, as someone was questioning earlier. Oh and he has Strength 10 goodness with Sanguine Sword as his compulsory first psychic ability.
So wings of Sanguinus is a psychic power? Unchanged from the old codex, what mastery level?
te11ah wrote: I also think someone said Wings of Sanguinius was gone earlier in this thread, but it's not. It's the sixth Sanguinary ability. And Mephiston does have access to Biomancy, as someone was questioning earlier. Oh and he has Strength 10 goodness with Sanguine Sword as his compulsory first psychic ability.
So wings of Sanguinus is a psychic power? Unchanged from the old codex, what mastery level?
Warp Charge 2, single infantry unit within 12" can move up to 12", and then cannot charge if they move in this way and count as moving.
casvalremdeikun wrote: As a new Blood Angels player coming from C:SM, I guess I really can't see why people are hating this codex.
1. Fast Vehicles - Seriously, being starting that Baal Pred, Pred, or Vindicator out at the edge of your deployment zone and likely being able to get in range with all of your weapons is pretty awesome. 2 Melta Bombs for something like that is a steal.
For the normal pred and vindicator, fast is a great upgrade but as Martel said earlier the Baal has no spot in the crowded heavy support slot now. Also, you want the TriLas predator back, and dipping between cover to get angles on targets, not up close.
2. Death Company - Quick question: Why would you EVER take a bolt pistol with these guys? I get that the extra attack is cool, but the Bolter tossing out its Rapid Fire is better. You then charge in and mop up with Rage. 5-15 man squads means I won't have problems fielding a ton of blood-crazed maniacs with my FOUR elite slots. I am going to run a full squad of Jump DC with a Chaplain wearing the Wings of Angels. Which brings me to...
Bolters are the last nail in a potentially game losing fail chain. You want the hammer of wrath attack in combat...so you have to use your JP in the assault phase, so you cost yourself 6" in the movement phase. Which means you already have a potentially 6" longer charge. Double tapping bolters increases that charge range again...sometimes by nothing, sometimes by enough to make you miss the charge, which, unless your opponent is "slow", will result in a dead death company squad. With the new formation giving +1I, there's no reason NOT to take BP/CCW, as you will be attacking first 99% of the time anyways, and you shouldn't need the bolters to thin out the target for melee unless you are really desperate.
3. Relics - YES. I love these relics! The perfected Plasma Pistol, the reroll Scatter and Reserves Jump Pack, the extra Warlord Trait scrolls. Seriously, if you are that concerned about not getting your Descent of Angels, take those scrolls. You will get four shots at getting it. The Jump Pack is a MUST for a Jump focused army.
The relics are mediocre to poor. The sword is over priced, the JP is pointless and the plasma pistol is HILARIOUSLY over priced. They most certainly are not upto par with the Space Marine relics like burning blade, shield eternal and whatnot.
4. Dante - Blood Angels SAUCE. He starts with DoA and you get another Warlord trait on top of that. Sauce. Initiative: Probably nothing beating you Axe? Handheld Meltagun? All for the low low price of 2.2 TFCs. I guess I will be getting him
One of the few bright spots in the new book and as close to an auto-include as this codex has.
5. Sanguinary Guard - Ten man squads of cheaper, faster Terminators? Yes please!
Still a bad unit, and probably would still be at 30 points each.
7. Tactical Squads - FLAMERS! While it might not be the most effective thing, a Cowboy Sergeant, Flamer, and Heavy Flamer squad is going to be pretty cool to run. Pop a few bolt pistol shots and Charge away. Would've liked for them to be able to take a Chainsword though for a couple points. Would've stopped some of the complaints Re: Assault Squads. Maybe GW will pull their heads out their rears and FAQ that.
I hate tactical squads.....this change alone has pretty much made me abandon the codex until a formation comes along that doesn't need tacticals or scouts.
I need to see some solid lists before I write the codex off entirely.....but I don't see how you can build a list that plays to the Blood Angels strengths and still have scouts or Tacticals as your troops.
Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Looks that way to me too. Pretty nice unit.
For the low low price of an Elite slot rather than a No slot.
Thanks for straightening me out on the DC, Carnage. As for the fast TriLas Pred, it allows you to get the heck out of dodge if needed. Keep those tanks moving between cover so the opponent can't really set up a strategy against them. The Baal's anti-infantry utility is dependent on the rest of the army. We will have to agree to disagree on the relics. 10 pts more to take away the one drawback of Plasma on top of Master-crafted is worth it to me. The sword is five points to go from AP3 to AP2, hardly a huge expenditure. I guess if they gave it Str +1 that might make it a bit better.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Can the Command squad get jump packs?
Yes, but it's not per model. It's a flat price equal to a power fist for the whole squad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Can the Command squad get jump packs?
Yup, which is probably how I would run them. Though you are stuck with the Sanguinary Initiate and Company Champion, so you can only get three Special Weapons out rather than 3-5 like the C:SM Command Squad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Can the Command squad get jump packs?
Yes, but it's not per model. It's a flat price equal to a power fist for the whole squad.
Then it seems to be a quite useful unit.
Can each HQ take a Cmd unit?
How about weapon upgrades?
If the answers are yes and yes, the Cmd squad will be comparable to the old Honor Guard. This would be a good deal.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Can the Command squad get jump packs?
Yes, but it's not per model. It's a flat price equal to a power fist for the whole squad.
Then it seems to be a quite useful unit.
Can each HQ take a Cmd unit?
How about weapon upgrades?
If the answers are yes and yes, the Cmd squad will be comparable to the old Honor Guard. This would be a good deal.
Sadly no, they are just an elites unit. The three veterans can select weapons from the Ranged/Melee/Special weapon lists.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I doing my math wrong, but it looks like the Command Squad is thirty points cheaper than their C: SM counter part. The C:SM Command Squad is 100 pts with 15 pts for an Apothecary upgrade and 15 pts for a Company Champion upgrade. The Blood Angels Command Squad is 100 pts with the Sanguinary Initiate(Apothecary) and Company Champion included. This is a pretty big deal.
Can the Command squad get jump packs?
Yes, but it's not per model. It's a flat price equal to a power fist for the whole squad.
Then it seems to be a quite useful unit.
Can each HQ take a Cmd unit?
How about weapon upgrades?
If the answers are yes and yes, the Cmd squad will be comparable to the old Honor Guard. This would be a good deal.
Command Squads use an Elite Slot, they can be taken independent of HQ. Theoretically, you could take four if using the Baal Strike Force detachment, though I don't know why. The three Veterans can take anything from the Melee, Ranged, or Special weapons lists.
Ok here my take after comparing both codexes:
Nice piont drops for a lot of hq's, sang guard got piont drop with option to take more no longer 5 cap, chaplian and techmarine now hq slot, tach squads and scout cheaper, command squad basicly became honor guard but cheaper, both rhino and razor get fast for free slight piont increase. Assault squad move cheaper, bikes way cheaper, Baal cheaper but loses scout, basic pred has cheaper upgrades, vindi cheaper, whirlwind almost 1/3 cheaper, Dante and Seth nice both lower costs. Ball strike force not ob sec, but new white dwarf has Flesh Tearers vanguard strike force . Red thirst plus Speed of Primarch nasty +2 init combined. Psychic powers 2, 3, and 6 can make mephiston beast mode. Be exact just rolling and getting primaris power gives him fleet.
Jump pack command squad with 3 x grav guns. Not relentless like bikes, but the ability to jump over terrain to ambush big nasties, especially if there a few units on the job....
niv-mizzet wrote: Also, in regards to your question about the death company bolter: because you don't want to kill yourself out of charge range. If you make it to combat at all with more than just a couple death company surviving, you're probably winning anyway, so risking a fail charge just for some extra bolter shells is not the greatest idea ever.
But how often is that happening?
And how often do you contest an objective while there is an enemy within 24"?
Because that's probably the biggest reason to take Boltguns, so that they aren't useless on an objective.
I am mulling around the idea of taking a ten man DC, five with bolters, 2 with BP/CCW, 1 PF, 2 PS. I want versatility. They would run with a Jump Pack Chaplain.
So has anybody noticed the Corbulo death star yet?
Corbulo adds +1 WS and initiative add librarian or chaplain with the ap2 relic sword 4x lightning claw terminators and 3x hammornators on to outside to eat fire power. With 2 troops choices you have a WS 5 s5 I6 ap3 shred with a ap2 at initiative. With librarian casting quickening on himself or lightning claw termy sarge more attacks and fleet. potenial for unleash rage and wings for lolz. This pops out of a lland raider crusader.
niv-mizzet wrote: Also, in regards to your question about the death company bolter: because you don't want to kill yourself out of charge range. If you make it to combat at all with more than just a couple death company surviving, you're probably winning anyway, so risking a fail charge just for some extra bolter shells is not the greatest idea ever.
But how often is that happening?
And how often do you contest an objective while there is an enemy within 24"?
Because that's probably the biggest reason to take Boltguns, so that they aren't useless on an objective.
I don't know you about you, but my DC are not going to stop killing people. Some scouts can sit on objectives.
10 death company with bolters camping out on an objective can be pretty durable with FNP, but it just seems a bit of a waste, 200 points to camp, when that 200 points could be using it's other rules with BP&CCW's wrecking face of anything around the objective whilst taking advantage of it's rage rules.
Also, that same death company will be awesome at clearing enemy objectives of troops. Don't have to worry about enemy objective secured when you have killed any unit with it.
For me if they can't charge the turn they become available, ie drop pod or rhino, then it's bolter's all the way. But if it's a crusader, j-pack's or s-raven then c-c wpns it is.
niv-mizzet wrote: Also, in regards to your question about the death company bolter: because you don't want to kill yourself out of charge range. If you make it to combat at all with more than just a couple death company surviving, you're probably winning anyway, so risking a fail charge just for some extra bolter shells is not the greatest idea ever.
But how often is that happening?
And how often do you contest an objective while there is an enemy within 24"?
Because that's probably the biggest reason to take Boltguns, so that they aren't useless on an objective.
Yeah you don't take 20-23 point models with rage fearless furious charge and all that jazz to NOT send them into enemy faces. Some of our mandatory taxticals can hold objectives. By all means, put a boltgun on any guy wielding a specialist weapon, because times DO come up where you just need to shoot someone, but if you're using the unit like it should be used and not like an overpriced tac squad, then you actually don't want to cause too many shooting wounds right before your assault phase.
niv-mizzet wrote: Also, in regards to your question about the death company bolter: because you don't want to kill yourself out of charge range. If you make it to combat at all with more than just a couple death company surviving, you're probably winning anyway, so risking a fail charge just for some extra bolter shells is not the greatest idea ever.
But how often is that happening?
And how often do you contest an objective while there is an enemy within 24"?
Because that's probably the biggest reason to take Boltguns, so that they aren't useless on an objective.
Yeah you don't take 20-23 point models with rage fearless furious charge and all that jazz to NOT send them into enemy faces. Some of our mandatory taxticals can hold objectives. By all means, put a boltgun on any guy wielding a specialist weapon, because times DO come up where you just need to shoot someone, but if you're using the unit like it should be used and not like an overpriced tac squad, then you actually don't want to cause too many shooting wounds right before your assault phase.
The target unit is likely going to die miserably anyway, so I've never seen the need at all.
I have been thinking of 5+Priest with Jump Packs in a Stormraven.
2 with Bolt Gun/Power Fist
2 with Bolt Pistol/Power Weapon [1 with Maul/1 with Lance]
1 with Plasma Pistol/Chainsword
Priest with Infernus or Plasma Pistol and/or Power Maul.
I may just not be seeing it but ive seen a lot of people say tacs squads can take a lot of flamer weapons. In a squad of 5 tacs isnt it just the one special/heavy weapon and the sergeants weapon, and at 10 you get a special, heavy, and the sergeants combi/hand flamer. Just wondering if I'm missing something? I'm not familiar with salamanders either so not sure how many flamers in a unit is a lot.
akwing00 wrote: I may just not be seeing it but ive seen a lot of people say tacs squads can take a lot of flamer weapons. In a squad of 5 tacs isnt it just the one special/heavy weapon and the sergeants weapon, and at 10 you get a special, heavy, and the sergeants combi/hand flamer. Just wondering if I'm missing something? I'm not familiar with salamanders either so not sure how many flamers in a unit is a lot.
The point there is probably the option of taking the Heavy Flamer that Salamanders (Standard SM codex) does not have.
It means a 5-man squad can come with Heavy flamer, 10-man for Flamer+Heavy Flamer. Much more flamers (starting at 5-man). And that is going to be pretty good!
akwing00 wrote: I may just not be seeing it but ive seen a lot of people say tacs squads can take a lot of flamer weapons. In a squad of 5 tacs isnt it just the one special/heavy weapon and the sergeants weapon, and at 10 you get a special, heavy, and the sergeants combi/hand flamer. Just wondering if I'm missing something? I'm not familiar with salamanders either so not sure how many flamers in a unit is a lot.
The point there is probably the option of taking the Heavy Flamer that Salamanders (Standard SM codex) does not have.
It means a 5-man squad can come with Heavy flamer, 10-man for Flamer+Heavy Flamer. Much more flamers (starting at 5-man). And that is going to be pretty good!
Not to mention the combi or pair of Hand Flamers on the sarge. With a max of 4 flamers a squad, it's going to get hot!
Death Company. Okay, best in slot, no argument from me. Jump packs, a couple fists and/or axes, and they will bury pretty much anything in melee short of a Knight or top level MC.
Sang Guard. Suck...still. Not enough attacks to deal with hordes, not strong enough to deal with MCs, and not amazing against vehicles. Not worth using.
"Normal" Dreads. Just....no. They've been bad since 6th dropped, and no one uses them in any marine army.
Death Company/melee furioso Dreads. Needs a pod. Experience has proven they still have trouble making it to melee. Over kill against infantry, and the opponent would have to be awful to let it charge a decent MC or character. IMO, nearly impossible to use optimally against an opponent that is half decent.
Template dread. Get a pod, Frag cannon/heavy flamer. Costs what? 175? If you want to do template spam you might as well use tactical squads, as you are forced to take them anyways and can filled your cursed compulsory troop slots Vanguard? Are these even elite? Inferior to DC in every way at any rate.
Sternguard. The chapter tactic does nothing for them, and if they've been brought into line with vanilla sterns, their combi-weapons are over priced now. I wouldn't take them in a vanilla list other then salamanders for MC melta fire, so I'm sure as hell not taking them here.
Edit: I forgot terminator! They are literally that bad. Tacticals suck balls, and melee termies are impossible to deploy properly.
Edit2; Forgot command squads...damnit. I have to see the points here, but they are inferior in melee to DC, and I feel there are probably better options for deploying special weapons elsewhere. bikes/attack bikes probably. It's also borderline insulting they are an elites choice instead of slotless HQ unlock.
I might field a couple of dreads occasionally ....MAYBE, but not every time.
Death Company is a no brainer, maybe 2 squads of 6 or 7 actually.
So 2, maybe 3 once in a while Elite slots. Not feeling crowded personally.
Death Company. Okay, best in slot, no argument from me. Jump packs, a couple fists and/or axes, and they will bury pretty much anything in melee short of a Knight or top level MC.
Sang Guard. Suck...still. Not enough attacks to deal with hordes, not strong enough to deal with MCs, and not amazing against vehicles. Not worth using.
"Normal" Dreads. Just....no. They've been bad since 6th dropped, and no one uses them in any marine army.
Death Company/melee furioso Dreads. Needs a pod. Experience has proven they still have trouble making it to melee. Over kill against infantry, and the opponent would have to be awful to let it charge a decent MC or character. IMO, nearly impossible to use optimally against an opponent that is half decent.
Template dread. Get a pod, Frag cannon/heavy flamer. Costs what? 175? If you want to do template spam you might as well use tactical squads, as you are forced to take them anyways and can filled your cursed compulsory troop slots Vanguard? Are these even elite, cause they are FA in the vanilla book. Inferior to DC in every way at any rate.
Sternguard. The chapter tactic does nothing for them, and if they've been brought into line with vanilla sterns, their combi-weapons are over priced now. I wouldn't take them in a vanilla list other then salamanders for MC melta fire, so I'm sure as hell not taking them here.
Edit: I forgot terminator! They are literally that bad. Tacticals suck balls, and melee termies are impossible to deploy properly.
Edit2; Forgot command squads...damnit. I have to see the points here, but they are inferior in melee to DC, and I feel there are probably better options for deploying special weapons elsewhere. bikes/attack bikes probably.
I might field a couple of dreads occasionally ....MAYBE, but not every time.
Death Company is a no brainer, maybe 2 squads of 6 or 7 actually.
So 2, maybe 3 once in a while Elite slots. Not feeling crowded personally.
just curious, I plan on running several squads of DC, but I was thinking of using Sanguinary guard just an escort for Dante. Would it be better just giving dante a DC escort?
Vanguard Vets are Elite in the Vanilla codex. And Sternguards aren't totally worthless in terms of the Chapter Tactics, they are still Vets with two attacks and can take a Power Fist if you really want to smack something. And you are right, Combi weapons are so overpriced people ALWAYS field 6+ on a ten man Sternguard squad. Sternguard are one of the go to things in Elites in C:SM regardless of Chapter Tactics. Heck, if I wanted to play a fluffy unbound list, I would play Pedro Kantor and as many Sternguards in Drop Pods I could afford for the points.
What exactly were you expecting on the Dreads? Yes, they need drop pods. It isn't like they have Scout or Infiltrate. Just like every other dread in the game. Why would BA be different in this respect? Sanguinary Guard are pretty good. Give one or two guys a fist and you have a fast moving Swiss army kill unit. Death Company can and likely will kill any unit they come in contact with if equipped properly. Command Squads are a good way to get three special weapons on the board and have FNP built right into the unit and are thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. Give em three plasma guns and go spam AP2 with fewer drawbacks. Tactical Terminator suck, just like in every other SM army, why would you expect any different? It isn't like BA are known for all of their Terminators. Assault Terminators with a few Storm Shields are pretty survivable and can lay some serious hurt down with their hammers.
Me, i have both. 10 in a pod and 5 soon to be 10 with JP. Thinking on getting more either 10 or 15 on foot with c-c weapons for a LR crusader though.
Or learn to magnetize the JP's
I'm pretty fortunate with this new codex as i have always had a tactical squad in my army and 5 sniper scout's every now and again. Now I'm actually looking forward to having even more gun's in my army. It is a shooting game now after all. More gun's and more feet on the ground is what I'm going for.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Vanguard Vets are Elite in the Vanilla codex. And Sternguards aren't totally worthless in terms of the Chapter Tactics, they are still Vets with two attacks and can take a Power Fist if you really want to smack something. And you are right, Combi weapons are so overpriced people ALWAYS field 6+ on a ten man Sternguard squad. Sternguard are one of the go to things in Elites in C:SM regardless of Chapter Tactics. Heck, if I wanted to play a fluffy unbound list, I would play Pedro Kantor and as many Sternguards in Drop Pods I could afford for the points.
You are joking of course....who in their right mind would ever intentionally throw sternguard into melee, or equip them for such? They are a shooting unit first and foremost and the chapter tactic does nothing for their primary role, shooting.
In the vanilla book no one uses Sternguard in competitive lists. You want special weapon spam, take troop bikers. You want a deep striking special weapon unit, try Legion of the Damned with a plasma gun, combi-weapon and multi-melta. Relentless ignores cover, deep striking death.
What exactly were you expecting on the Dreads? Yes, they need drop pods. It isn't like they have Scout or Infiltrate. Just like every other dread in the game. Why would BA be different in this respect?
"Just like every other dread in the game" is a curse, because every other dread in the game sucks. Outside of maybe a niche hellbrute dataslate or 2, and the forgeworld mortis dreads anyways. Taking after "normal" dreads is just terrible. I was hoping for SOMETHING that dug them out of the miserable hole they have languished in for the last decade, but the issue is more with the core vehicle and assault rules than any particular dreadnought. The old blender dread at least had a niche of being one of the best units in the game, in melee, point for point, for killing power armored guys, but that's gone too.
Sanguinary Guard are pretty good. Give one or two guys a fist and you have a fast moving Swiss army kill unit. Death Company can and likely will kill any unit they come in contact with if equipped properly.
Sang guard pale in comparison to DC, and that's enough to make sure no one uses them competitively. The problem isn't that they are bad really, it's that they are in a slot with literally 3 other jump pack melee units. DC, Vanguard, command squads and sang guard all compete against one another DIRECTLY. If 3 of them are melee, and one is shooting....well, there's too much overlap, and one of them is going to be rated as best and/or worst. DC are just better.
Command Squads are a good way to get three special weapons on the board and have FNP built right into the unit and are thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. Give em three plasma guns and go spam AP2 with fewer drawbacks.
The question is; Are command squads the BEST way to get 3 special weapons on the board? I need to get my hands on the book to make that call, but I'm guessing no. 5 command squad guys with 3 plasma guns is what? 170 points? Compare that to min/max grav spam bikers or ASM with double specials, and I don't think they will come out very well overall.
Tactical Terminator suck, just like in every other SM army, why would you expect any different? It isn't like BA are known for all of their Terminators. Assault Terminators with a few Storm Shields are pretty survivable and can lay some serious hurt down with their hammers.
I didn't really expect something different really, but GW has to realize, SOMEDAY, that terminators are gak, and get about fixing them. The Grey Knight terminator troop choice actually came out pretty good, chaos terminators are passable, but who in their right mind is willing to pay 7-8 points to upgrade a stormbolter/power weapon to stormbolter/powerfist or twin-lightning claws, or 12-13 points for TH/SS? They just don't understand terminators.
Some day, GW will take after forgeworld and we will have chapter specific terminator squads that don't suck. I was just hoping it would start here.
Again, Sternguards have just as many attacks as every other Vet. They are functional in CC. And their biggest draw is SI ammo, which is why their Combi bolters are a must. They are the best use of an elite slot for C:SM.
A three plasma Command Squad is 145, thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. And they can take JPs, C:SM can't. Name one other unit that can get FNP and x3 Plasmagun on the board for that price.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Again, Sternguards have just as many attacks as every other Vet. They are functional in CC. And their biggest draw is SI ammo, which is why their Combi bolters are a must. They are the best use of an elite slot for C:SM.
A three plasma Command Squad is 145, thirty points cheaper than their C:SM counterpart. And they can take JPs, C:SM can't. Name one other unit that can get FNP and x3 Plasmagun on the board for that price.
Yeah, but they are walking for 145 right? So you aren't getting anything unless you can deploy the weapons via JP, bike, drop pod or transport. They aren't 145, they are 170+. For 170, you should be able to stack up fairly easily.
Anyone saying sang guard are useless... Well, they haven't thought of the one counter they will be pretty good at, and by the looks of thing will be needed in the meta.
Yeah, they may still not deal with hordes amazingly (still think 10 of them, with a sang priest are going to murder most hordes into the ground, and if they don't in one turn, the 2+ save and feel no pain are going to make sure they are still there next turn to finish the job)
Anyway, the hard counter they will be perfect for.... Taking out Death company. Angelus bolters, and any inferno pistols, plus charging with increased initiative providing the formation is used, and striking at S5, with master crafted power swords (no point in the axes as they still get the FNP) and boom, Most of them death company are going to die in that turn.
Well, I remember a game 2v2 when I battled with my DoA army vs Nids and Eldar.
The SG really had a problem to shine since there were literally no Nids they were good against.
All four players agreed on this.
I can see some use for a SG against a Dev. or Havoc unit.
But otherwise. Hmm.
2x 10 death company with jump packs and 2 hammers in each squad
2x 10 tacticals with heavy flamer, flamer, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and a drop pod
2x 5 assault squads with 2x melta, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and pods
That clocks in at about 1150 points, has 50 infantry of various sorts (20 with FNP) and decent anti-infantry or anti-tank to drop turn one depending on opponent. I think I'll go with a generic HQ to get a shot at master of ambush for the death company.
As an allied detachment, I'm strongly considering 3 assault centurions to go in a drop pod with a sanguinary priest to support this core. What do you guys think of that for a 3rd pod in the first wave?
Martel732 wrote: AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.
And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.
True, but the plan with SG is to move where you will get peppered the least. Terminators don't have that luxury, so they are most susceptible to the many turns of lasgun fire problem.
Now, I know it's easy saying it in theory, but depending on the opposition and terrain, I'd be quite confident about being about to get them into combat unscathed against some basic troops, where they will be safe from shooting, and most overwatch.
Disordered charges into multiple units, just to ensure they can't kill all their foe and be left in the open in one turn could be viable also.
I feel like the massive points reudction SG got still makes them viable, though not as much as DC of course. 165 points for 5 vets w/ 2+ armor, a JP, and a power sword is excellent. Throw in a PF and maybe an inferno pistol or two and you can handle most anything but hordes.
But yeah, really hope they get a good formation in the next Shield of Baal book.
Martel732 wrote: AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.
And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.
The same is true for basically every unit in the game. Volume of fire is going to bring anything down as long as it can hit it. I have never understood this reasoning for why something is bad.
Martel732 wrote: AP 2 is just too common in the game for SG to be really valuable, I think.
And not even just AP2, but sometimes just the volume of fire that some armies can put onto a unit. The more saves you have to roll, the more you will fail.
The same is true for basically every unit in the game. Volume of fire is going to bring anything down as long as it can hit it. I have never understood this reasoning for why something is bad.
Volume is a problem when price per wound outpaces staying power.
33 points per wound and twice the staying power of a 14 point guy....
14x2 = 28....not 33.
You will kill more points by putting your AP4+ firepower into sang guard than you do into tactical marines. THAT is the problem, their staying power does not keep pace with cost. It's also why terminators largely suck. Not only are these units obscenely vulnerable to AP2, they are actually more vulnerable to small arms as well.
What about running strike force Baal formation with enhanced baal strike force. With mephiston + Dante dc in eletes for mephiston and the command squad for Dante. Tacs with pods in fast attack filled with Sister's of battle melta gun fluffy. Storm ravens in the heavy slots. Blood angels with sister allies for super fluffy army to go with the whole sheild of baal senerio.
Could even fill storm ravens with sisters as well carrying dc or frag dreads in support. Or repenta assaulting out of storm raven in hover.
Carnage43 wrote: The question is; Are command squads the BEST way to get 3 special weapons on the board? I need to get my hands on the book to make that call, but I'm guessing no. 5 command squad guys with 3 plasma guns is what? 170 points? Compare that to min/max grav spam bikers or ASM with double specials, and I don't think they will come out very well overall.
They are actually cheaper than 170, you'd be right if they all had JP's.
Another idea would be to take a Stormshield to have a 3+/3++/5+++ to make them more durable.
An ASM with combi-plasma is 'only' a Rhino cheaper, so I think both are a good option.
The problem is that you are paying a premium price for more CC-power, you probably don't want to waste that on Plasma guns.
Yes, no, yes.
The dangerous shooting is stuff like Plasma and Graviton, which - due to its power against everything - sees too much play.
I don't think Sv2+ squads are really worth their points in this meta of AP2.
Kangodo wrote: Yes, no, yes.
The dangerous shooting is stuff like Plasma and Graviton, which - due to its power against everything - sees too much play.
I don't think Sv2+ squads are really worth their points in this meta of AP2.
Thanks for the precise, if not expansive, response.
I hear you about Plasma and Graviton, but I don't play Space Marines much with my BA, and while I know other armies have rough equivalents, I don't agree that the presence of SOME weapons which slaughter 2+ armor makes SG impractical to run. Especially with a FNP bonus from a jump-pack equipped Priest. (I am pumped about that, too--I don't have one with a JP)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carnage43 wrote: Just wanted to add, Cassor and the Deathstorm DC squad being troops is either a typo, or is specifically meant for the the Deathstorm missions only. I would not expect GW to allow troop DC and dreads for normal 40k games very long.
FAQ will probably be something like "Cassor and Rahpen's Death Company are a troop choice for Deathstorm scenarios only, when taken in a standard 40k army they are Elite choices".
So I wouldn't get too attached to them as a staple troop going forward.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paradigm wrote: For AA your options are Stormraven, Fortifications or just ignoring it (with a list like that, you should be far enough forward that many fliers will just overshoot you when they come on, so that is a legitimate option). You could also bring the Stormwing formation to get some Talons in, but that would be expensive. Depending on how far you're going with Scouts, I think an ADL with Quad could be a good option. Deploy it on the centre line, infiltrate your scouts on it, and T1 gain a 4+ cover for your jumpers as well!
HQ I'd take a pair of JP Libbies to run with the DC for Prescience or BA magic if you can afford them.
I am still concerned about anti-air weaponry. We didn't get a Talon, we don't have access to the Space Marine anti-air tanks. So...that leaves ineffective Devastators, terrain (ADL with Quad as above) or you have to run Stormraven(s) yes?
So, not thrilled about that. Scouts in a Stormraven is okay, I guess, and I like the idea of the fluffy DC dread and DC dropping out of the sky. Don't know that it will be terribly effective, but it'll draw attention away from SG...
2x 10 death company with jump packs and 2 hammers in each squad
2x 10 tacticals with heavy flamer, flamer, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and a drop pod
2x 5 assault squads with 2x melta, veteran with power sword, melta bombs and pods
That clocks in at about 1150 points, has 50 infantry of various sorts (20 with FNP) and decent anti-infantry or anti-tank to drop turn one depending on opponent. I think I'll go with a generic HQ to get a shot at master of ambush for the death company.
As an allied detachment, I'm strongly considering 3 assault centurions to go in a drop pod with a sanguinary priest to support this core. What do you guys think of that for a 3rd pod in the first wave?
Well, I'd prefer Rhinos as moving hills giving cover to the advancing jump packers.
I expect sanguinary guard to be bad if you try to use them as DC.
But as I see it, DC is a suicide unit that dont need a buffed HQ to lead them. Sang guard on the other hand could do better as a nice bodyguard to Dante or librarian.
Besides, even if it is not uncommon to see ap2 shooting, ap3 shooting is not that usual, so your enemy will most likely direct most of the heavy fire towards your blob of scary post-traumatical rage marines rather than the sang guard.
Not saying Sanguinary guard are best in show, but there is more to a unit than nuber of impact hits.
Edit: Remember there is lots more variety to what your army need to do with tactical objectives, rather than just anihilate a unit with first round of assault.
I used to have some blood angels and in light of the new book am thinking of getting a small force together. Looking forward to keeping track of this thread to see what the consensus is on what's worth while
While I doubt I'll get to play it for a while, here are my first thoughts on a list. It's not optimised/GT winning, but it plays to the army's strength and theme and I'd be confident taking it to most clubs and doing well.
+++ BA take 1 (1495pts) +++
++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Baal Strike Force Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Astorath, Redeemer of the Lost
Sanguinary Priest [Jump pack]
+ Elites +
Death Company Squad [9x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 9x Chainsword, Power Fist]
····10x Death Company Marine [10x Jump Pack]
I toyed with the idea of dropping the Assaults down to 5-man units in pods, but I think this way is more thematic and more versatile, giving them something to do beyond Suicide Drops. It would be easy to convert this to an all pod list and drop two pods T1, and remainder and DC turn 2, but I think for the moment Rhinos/JP just keep them a bit more mobile. Like I say, it's not meant to be amazing, but it proves the point that this codex can do as well as if not better than C:SM in list building.
Largely because he's one of my favourite minis, but the thinking was that he would be the best force multiplier the DC could get, allowing them to roll through anything even if they take some damage before combat.
That said, I may well replace him with a Reliced up Captain or Librarian further down the line, the DC should be able to handle most stuff on their own if they have to.
Paradigm wrote: Largely because he's one of my favourite minis, but the thinking was that he would be the best force multiplier the DC could get, allowing them to roll through anything even if they take some damage before combat.
That said, I may well replace him with a Reliced up Captain or Librarian further down the line, the DC should be able to handle most stuff on their own if they have to.
Well, I'm a bit worried about Wraithknights and Dreadknights.
My GK opponent usually fields two to three NDKs.
My fear is always that I buy him and that he ends up doing nothing.
I always calculate how the combat would have been without him and usually it's not a big difference.
My new favourite unit has to be Corbulo, he could even buff Devastators into a dedicated CC-squad.
Too bad he still lacks a way to gain JP.
Just a question: but as far as i can see there is no more limitation on DC, so you could basically have all DC units
with ASM being fast, and that means no more secure objective (and taht make using strike of baal detachment a viable option), why don't use DC squad in lieu of asm?
dc are more expensive, 23 point for a jumped one compared to 17 for asm
however, they get fnp "for free", so effectilvely 4 dc will survive like 6 asm; plus can use bolter and have same attack stats in close combat BUT shot one more time at 12", can be equipped with PW/PF and rage means they get +1 S while charging
and with strike of baal detachment you got plenty of elite slot to put inside 1 or 2 more dc squad (and maybe save a fast slot for bike or baal)
You mean DC instead of ASM? Je parle Francaise en peu.
ASM have access to special weapons like meltas.
Basically you can run 5 ASM with two meltas.
That's a very good deal.
Got the Codex. My jaw dropped when I got to Tycho. Had to read it, reread it, and try and find something elsewhere in the codex. I hope I'm just overlooking it, but...
TYCHO HAS NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON. None. No knife, no Deadman's hand, no chainsword, no power weapon... nadda, zip. He does have digital weapons, and a whole bunch of special rules to help him in close combat, but NO CLOSE COMBAT WEAPON.
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Was it an oversight? Or does Tycho really just wade into close combat swinging Blood Song like an over sized club, gaining extra attacks with it while out numbered,+1 S when he charges, getting rerolls (especially against Orks), and his Death Company version has Fearless and Feel no Pain.
I'm not advocating that he should have some kind of second artifact for close combat, but the model comes with a knife sheathed on his thigh. It would be nice to have some kind of nod to it, or even just list "Combat Knife" that counts as an additional close combat weapon.
Oh, and another thing about Death Company Tycho that I also noticed with Lemartes- they are listed as Independent Characters, but they can only join the Death Company. Does GW even understand it's own rules? Was the idea of a upgrade character in a unit too abhorrent to them, so they had to give these characters Independent status, but then say they can only ever join a DC unit? So let's think about that for a second. If you have only 1 DC unit on the table, Tycho or Lemartes can run around by themselves, and be snipped, or join a DC unit and get a 2+ "Look Out, Sir!" roll, do the Challenge thing, and (in the case of Lemartes) buff the DC up a bit. I'm kinda surprised Astroboy isn't an IC that can only join DC as well.
Are these two things "Codex Breaking"? No, not really. A little in-congruent with the rest of the Codex for sure. Tycho has always been my favorite Blood Angels character. He represented the classic Fallen Protagonist that has a tragic, noble death, but at least finds some succor and honor in it.
Does it feel like GW just concentrates on a few aspects of a new codex, and then inexplicably... stops? Did Tycho and Lemartes get a "first pass" during the codex rewrite, and was never looked at again?
wuestenfux wrote: You mean DC instead of ASM? Je parle Francaise en peu.
ASM have access to special weapons like meltas.
Basically you can run 5 ASM with two meltas.
That's a very good deal.
Yeah i was thnking about DC in lieu of ASM; i was not considering 2x melta options... i'd like the idea of specialised unit, so asm with melta is a good thing; however, it depends on who you are facing... 'cause asm is good against an heavy armored army (i'm thinking about my AM friend) but not sure against a riptide-full or carnifex-full list. On the other side, 2 melta assault can be easily shotted with a bit of luck, good positioning (or bad positioning from ba side) while every dc in the squad got S5 on charge
against a mixed fast moving list like eldar waveserpent+wraithknight (i play a lot against this type of list...) dropping melta against 'serpents on the first turn is good thing, but if they survive, mine asm are totally wasted, while a fast traveling DC seems more flexible to adapt to different situation... or i'm wrong again?
Well, I like to cover all kinds of threats in a competitive setting.
Three small ASM squads with two meltas each is a good deal.
The same goes for a Cmd squad with say three plasma guns.
Variety is key.
Tamwulf wrote: Got the Codex. My jaw dropped when I got to Tycho. Had to read it, reread it, and try and find something elsewhere in the codex. I hope I'm just overlooking it, but...
Tycho is really weird, he is too hybrid.
I don't want a regular Tycho to get into CC, but I have CC-abilities.
I DO want DC-Tycho to get into CC, but he lacks decent weapons.
Yes Tycho is like the worst points you could spend in the book. It'd be better to just make your own captain.
2nd place has to go to blood talons. 10 points to gain shred on already s10 attacks... That's another meltagun that could be somewhere, or two melta bombs.
Tycho should have at least got ap3. Going from ignoring all armour to not even ignoring 6+ is just an extreme change.
Blood talons should have granted rampage to be 1. Worth their points and 2. Still fluffy.
I wanted to hit home the point of the power the furious charge really brings to the table against T6 MCs. I played a game yesterday against Tau and had a situation where a lone regular assault marine charged a riptide. He ended up inflicting 1 unsaved wound and survived the return attacks. The riptide failed his morale and I ran him down (extra initiative bonus helped). Probable, definitely not. Awesome? Hell yes!
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I like to cover all kinds of threats in a competitive setting.
Three small ASM squads with two meltas each is a good deal.
The same goes for a Cmd squad with say three plasma guns.
Variety is key.
I would counter-intuitively have it the other way around. Command squad have no abalitive wounds, so a casualty is 5pt loss more if armed with plasma, plus with their +1a id rather they be in combat. Whilst an assault squad can put down 6 plasma shots for 125pts, placed anywhere on the board - then they don't need to get in combat as only 2 members have bp&ccw, so rapidfire isn't too bad for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw has anyone noticed...
With the loss of the reclusiarch - BA can now only ever have 1 relic unit!
niv-mizzet wrote: Yes Tycho is like the worst points you could spend in the book. It'd be better to just make your own captain.
2nd place has to go to blood talons. 10 points to gain shred on already s10 attacks... That's another meltagun that could be somewhere, or two melta bombs.
Or a sarge promotion!
Yeah, but if you get to reroll a 1 on even one of those attacks, you're probably going to kill more than 10 points. Also the DC Dread gets, what 6 attacks on the charge? You're going to roll a 1 if it's in melee for two turns. Now, granted, if you're charging vehicles or weakened squads, you're probably over-killing them.
Martel732 wrote: DC are good, but FNP only increases a regular save from 66% to
78%. That is nowhere near a 33% or 50% increase.
sorry but... fnp is'nt rolled after regular save failed?
so far 6 unsaved wound for asm is 6 asm dead; 6 unsaved wound for dc means 4 dc death, thus increasing survivability of the squad (ok maybe % is not really correct, but for just 6 point more the fnp, rage and relentless give dc more advantages. did'nt count the 2x special weapon asm get in the new codex, btw...)
i see there are some viable options then; mostly based on "put squad on pod for fast assault with special weapons".
but what for JP equipped marines? 2-3 JP squad for fast approach?
Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.
Poly Ranger wrote: Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.
Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.
Poly Ranger wrote: Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.
Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.
that's my point
and mostly what kill your marine is not a single multi-melta shot but hundred of lasgun...
Paradigm wrote: Here's a question: combi-flamer or a single hand flamer on Tactical Sergeants? In other words, better burning ability more attacks in CC?
It is also one-shot flamer/normal boltgun or multiple shot Hand-flamer + Wall of Death.
How much is both vs. the combi weapon? That should be the main comparison IMHO
Paradigm wrote: Here's a question: combi-flamer or a single hand flamer on Tactical Sergeants? In other words, better burning ability more attacks in CC?
It is also one-shot flamer/normal boltgun or multiple shot Hand-flamer + Wall of Death.
How much is both vs. the combi weapon? That should be the main comparison IMHO
It's 10 points for a combi or a single Hand Flamer, so 20 for two. The thing is, your only realistically going to be firing a flamer of any kind once or twice anyway, so I'm not sure how much the one shot nature is a hinderance, and also if you're out of template range then a bolter I'd better than nothing. WOD is also not something I'm too worried about, if things go as planned I'll be charging more than being charged.
Not sure how sanguinary guard are bad. Theyre appropriately costed for terminators but trade a 5++ for jump packs. The added mobility means that cover is easy to find, and throwing a priest into the mix increases their durability even more.
Cant kill monsters? I had a 5 man unit with a priest take on a 2 man squad of dakkafexs and come out on top. Str5 on the charge (or 6 with axes) means that anything below t7 is meat.
th3maninblak wrote: Not sure how sanguinary guard are bad. Theyre appropriately costed for terminators but trade a 5++ for jump packs. The added mobility means that cover is easy to find, and throwing a priest into the mix increases their durability even more.
Cant kill monsters? I had a 5 man unit with a priest take on a 2 man squad of dakkafexs and come out on top. Str5 on the charge (or 6 with axes) means that anything below t7 is meat.
Throw in the banner on a 10 man squad and you have 40 attacks on the charge which you should get off due to the jump packs, with a priest this squad is gonna mince most units. Sanguinary Guard just seem like an auto include to me.
Yeah, too much math hammer going on in here as proof that a unit is bad.
The amount of games I have played where the rules of probability have been totally discarded by the dice makes me ignore it to a certain extent.
Also, if my sang guard are drawing the enemies wrath then so be it, my death company and dreadnaught are going to be hitting their lines, along with tactical and scout squads who are very good at combat in their own right.
In fact, yeah, I would be happy if my sang guard didn't kill a singly thing if they are making 400pts+ of the enemy fire at them for a turn or two, or manoeuvre their whole army around avoiding them. And if they aren't shooting at them as they are worried about my DC, then my sang guard will clear up on most things they assault.
Poly Ranger wrote: Its because the chances of an ASM passing a save is 2/3 (66.7%) whilst a DC passing one of their saves is 2/3 + 1/3 x 1/3 which equals 77.8%. So an increase of 11.1% with fnp.
Yeah, but that 11.1% is going to cause you to take 33% fewer losses to S7 or lower attacks.
that's my point
and mostly what kill your marine is not a single multi-melta shot but hundred of lasgun...
Both points also true.
Thing is the majority of BA players have been saying Sang Guard needed a 7 to 8 pt decrease to be effective. We have got just that. We shouldn't discount it now that DCjps got even cheaper than we expected.
If you run a full 10man SG squad with 2 fists and priest you are looking at 425pts. A lot of points, but they will be able to decimate much more than termis due to their speed and have better durability due to FNP against ap3 or worse. If also running a big 'shoot me, shoot me' target, such as a knight, 2-3 vindis, 2-3 flamestorm baals or a typhon, those anti-tank shots probably won't be mostly flying at the SG.
Would it be better to run
5 ASM
-2 Melta Gun
-1 Combi Melta
-Drop pod
Comes out to be 115 points. (Saves you 20 points)
The idea behind the second build is once your squad Deep Strikes into position to nuke enemy armor, they will certainly die the next turn. The combi investment is beneficial here.
In the first build, you are investing in 2 Inferno Pistols. This means you will get an extra Melta shot (assuming you land within 6", however it will not get the Melta bonus unless you are within 3").
HalfBlood wrote: The idea behind the second build is once your squad Deep Strikes into position to nuke enemy armor, they will certainly die the next turn. The combi investment is beneficial here.
That's the reason why i don't think i'll run an heavy drop pod army on my first tries...
HalfBlood wrote: In the first build, you are investing in 2 Inferno Pistols. This means you will get an extra Melta shot (assuming you land within 6", however it will not get the Melta bonus unless you are within 3").
i'm not a fan of inferno pistol
ok it's a pistol and ok it had to be shorter range than meltagun, but 3" to use at his full potential is a bad joke. it's better to use plasma pistol, imho: you will never use melta special ability, and with plasma you lose one point of str but can shoot at 12"
inferno was useful only with 5th ed Dante who would DS at 2" from enemy armour
imho
Definitely agree that combi-melta is the way forward. 115pts is just insanely efficient for what you get. If going pod heavy it also gets you more pods for more T1 arrivals.
Although tbh I think we are all missing a trick here because they are assault marines. For 10pts more you get 6 plasma shots instead, it doesn't matter that there are 2 bp&ccw guys semi-wasted due to rapid fire as they are abalative wounds for the plasma guns.
Just a little question:
in your opinion is better to run 2 unit with 10 DC marines each one, or 3 unit with 7 marines each one?
in wich proportion you would put PW or PF?
Everyone keeps talking about running 10 man squads of death company. I think thats wayyy overkill. An 8 man squad with 2 power swords and a fist have been more than enough for me. Took out the spawn of cryptix, 10 genesealers, 2 carnifexs and a warrior last game.
At the moment I'm running 5 DC with one Power Sword and usually an HQ (unless he runs with the SangGuard). I may up the squad size, but for now this seems to be enough, out of a LR or with JP.
th3maninblak wrote: Everyone keeps talking about running 10 man squads of death company. I think thats wayyy overkill. An 8 man squad with 2 power swords and a fist have been more than enough for me. Took out the spawn of cryptix, 10 genesealers, 2 carnifexs and a warrior last game.
I'm gonna try this squad size out, just with an additional powerfist
I just had an idea that may or may not be a good one. Could you purchase a Razorback and a squad of Scouts, and put the Scouts in the Razorback? Would the Razorback gain Scout?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I am thinking of running 7 BPCS DC with one BPPF and two BPPS. Good or bad?
Tactical Squad is either going to be a Combi Flamer, Flamer, Heavy Flamer or Cowboy Inferno Pistol and Melta Gun. Which do you guys think would be better?
casvalremdeikun wrote: I just had an idea that may or may not be a good one. Could you purchase a Razorback and a squad of Scouts, and put the Scouts in the Razorback? Would the Razorback gain Scout?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I am thinking of running 7 BPCS DC with one BPPF and two BPPS. Good or bad?
Tactical Squad is either going to be a Combi Flamer, Flamer, Heavy Flamer or Cowboy Inferno Pistol and Melta Gun. Which do you guys think would be better?
I think the option of a heavy flamer for the Blood Angels tacticals is huge, since it finally lets you have a tactical squad with a specialized role it is very good at. Two flamer templates, a flamer template, and then a bunch of double-tapping bolt-guns is great for clearing chaff, and you don't feel like you're wasting all those dudes just for that one special/heavy shot. The meltas/plasmas I would leave for Command Squads and Assault Squads.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I just had an idea that may or may not be a good one. Could you purchase a Razorback and a squad of Scouts, and put the Scouts in the Razorback? Would the Razorback gain Scout?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I am thinking of running 7 BPCS DC with one BPPF and two BPPS. Good or bad?
Tactical Squad is either going to be a Combi Flamer, Flamer, Heavy Flamer or Cowboy Inferno Pistol and Melta Gun. Which do you guys think would be better?
I think the option of a heavy flamer for the Blood Angels tacticals is huge, since it finally lets you have a tactical squad with a specialized role it is very good at. Two flamer templates, a flamer template, and then a bunch of double-tapping bolt-guns is great for clearing chaff, and you don't feel like you're wasting all those dudes just for that one special/heavy shot. The meltas/plasmas I would leave for Command Squads and Assault Squads.
hmmm. Sounds good. I think I will remake my Assault Squad with melta and a Cowboy Inferno Sergeant and hunt vehicles. The flamer Tactical Squad is gonna be the way to go. I am thinking in a Fast Rhino though. Are the the hand Flamer or a combi Flamer better for the tactical squad?
I still think tac squads with plasma have value. The primary targets of flamers are also targets that can be shot with boltguns or beat about the head by angry BA.
Tactical Marines with Flamers worked very well dropping in, decimated infantry very nicely.
Vindicator and Predator were effective and fun to use, not sure about Baal Pred yet.
Dante+Sanguinary Guard (5 sword/ 5 axe, ch. banner) +Sang Priest was awesome. Used Dante up front to tank for the unit. In the game, I moved poorly and was charged by Wraithblades (with shields), spiritseer and farseer and fortune cast on them. Got crushed. After the end of the game, we redid this particular engagement and the SG did extremely well on the charge.
Game 2 vs Tau (I went 1st)
Tactical Marines with Flamers in drop pod again did awesome.
2 Preds did ok, probably need to use cover better to get 25% cover from buildings, although this would mean not shooting with a side sponson.
2 full units of Assault Marines (armed with max melta) with attached Sang Priests moved up the board and absorbed firepower nicely. 1 engaged broadsides and other engaged riptide. Melta shots were missing and took awhile to work through the 2+ armor (did have melta bombs).
Frag Furioso with heavy flamer killed infantry nicely.
Game 3 through 5 Deathstorm Missions
I highly advise playing these, missions were refreshing and fun.
Game 6 vs Demons (went 2nd)
Demon list was going grimoire of names + fate weaver, cursed earth and invisibility. I pretty much couldn't do anything against the 4 MCs that were getting buffed.
Ran BA bike list (3 full squads, 1 MMAB, Vsgt with LC and attached Sang Priest), along with tactical flamer squads in pods and 1 ASM in pod with Melta.
Played the objectives and focused on the lesser demon squads. Bikes were very resistant. 1 squad held out through 2 game turns of assault from 2 demon princes.
Bikes charging lesser demon squads decimated them. As heretical as it sounds, BA bring a solid alternative to white scars for bike lists.
Frag Furioso kills demons nicely.
Game 7 vs Demons (went 2nd).
Went DC focus, with 2 full squads of 15, 1 TH, 1 PF, 4 PS, 9 regular. 1st squad Astorath and Sang Priest, 2nd with just Sang Priest. Got the charge off with both units against 2 separate units of Flesh Hounds with Juggernaut of Khorne attached.
....Holy crap were they good. Seriously, Astorath makes DC sickly good. I felt like an ork with all that dice. Was able to punch through both units with cursed earth either before or after the demonic instability check. The unit held up well against a third unit of hounds that charged astogath's group and killed them in 2 assault. Unit came out mostly intact.
Tactical squad with flamers, again did great.
Frag Furioso again, killed infantry dead.
4 Melta shots from a 5 man ASM into the rear of the soul grinder would have done great...except for missing half and the rest getting saved by cursed earth invul.
Overall, all the games were fun and exciting. Can't wait to try more combos and lists ideas.
Currently thinking about 5 man ASM in Rhinos with special weapons of your pick. Get lots of free points that way and move 24 inches possible to score objectives.
3 Melta guns makes the squad guaranteed anti armor. If you want 3 Plasma Guns it costs 10 points more (125) and its a bit more versatile except not as effective against armor. 2 Melta and a Combi Plasma (115) is also an option. I need more games with Podded ASM to determine the correct build.
Another load out could be.
5 ASM
-2 Plasma Gun
-Rhino
115 points.
What I find interesting is ASM can choose to get either a Rhino or Drop pod for free. If you choose Rhino you technically gain 10 more points for free.
I am really hoping that we get a nice ASM or Bike detachment. I want to take 1-2 units of Grav bikes + 2-3 Units of ASM mechanized.
Now they just need to have one with 16 FA slots and we're all good!
I was figuring something like this when SW got to take 4 HQ and 8 Elites in Champions of Fenris. I wasn't expecting a pure HQ/Elite army with no other choices available though.
We may be seeing a future in which Detatchments remove the need for FOC swaps.
Actually, that's a good point. Of the 3 overcrowded FOC slots we have, this detachment as a second detachment goes a long way towards fixing two of them. Take your dual Priests in the BSF detachment, along with the Elites that need the I boost (SG, DC), then throw your HQ beatstick (Captain, TDA, Valour's Edge, SS?) And Elites that don't need boosted Init (Termies, Dreads for the most part, Sternguard) in here.
In other news, I think this gives us a pretty good look at what's in store for the Deathwing when the new DA codex rolls around...
Paradigm wrote: Actually, that's a good point. Of the 3 overcrowded FOC slots we have, this detachment as a second detachment goes a long way towards fixing two of them. Take your dual Priests in the BSF detachment, along with the Elites that need the I boost (SG, DC), then throw your HQ beatstick (Captain, TDA, Valour's Edge, SS?) And Elites that don't need boosted Init (Termies, Dreads for the most part, Sternguard) in here.
In other news, I think this gives us a pretty good look at what's in store for the Deathwing when the new DA codex rolls around...
Same goes for Ravenwing, though it would probably be FA.
Paradigm wrote: Actually, that's a good point. Of the 3 overcrowded FOC slots we have, this detachment as a second detachment goes a long way towards fixing two of them. Take your dual Priests in the BSF detachment, along with the Elites that need the I boost (SG, DC), then throw your HQ beatstick (Captain, TDA, Valour's Edge, SS?) And Elites that don't need boosted Init (Termies, Dreads for the most part, Sternguard) in here.
In other news, I think this gives us a pretty good look at what's in store for the Deathwing when the new DA codex rolls around...
Bad news! The book will probably have the same rules as the others, so that means a different list of Relics.
But good news is that Corbulo's buff works on BA's within range, even if they are from another Detachment/Formation
Paradigm wrote: Actually, that's a good point. Of the 3 overcrowded FOC slots we have, this detachment as a second detachment goes a long way towards fixing two of them. Take your dual Priests in the BSF detachment, along with the Elites that need the I boost (SG, DC), then throw your HQ beatstick (Captain, TDA, Valour's Edge, SS?) And Elites that don't need boosted Init (Termies, Dreads for the most part, Sternguard) in here.
In other news, I think this gives us a pretty good look at what's in store for the Deathwing when the new DA codex rolls around...
Bad news! The book will probably have the same rules as the others, so that means a different list of Relics.
But good news is that Corbulo's buff works on BA's within range, even if they are from another Detachment/Formation
Possibly, although as this is a campaign book rather than a supplement it may have the option to use codex Relics. If not, then the pattern still indicates we'll get a Special Sword, Good Gun and Horrifying Hat of some kind. Either way, I think there will be something good to use.
Oh, and another thing about Death Company Tycho that I also noticed with Lemartes- they are listed as Independent Characters, but they can only join the Death Company. Does GW even understand it's own rules? Was the idea of a upgrade character in a unit too abhorrent to them, so they had to give these characters Independent status, but then say they can only ever join a DC unit?
Identical to Snikrot and commandoes. Makes perfect sence actually. Got only Lemartes and no DC? Field him alone - noone's prohibiting you from it. But they're intended to work together.
I prefer the Zhandrekh and Obyron-combo!
You can take Obyron, but if you take him as a Zhandrekh-upgrade he doesn't take up a slot.
They should have done that to Lemartes.
th3maninblak wrote: Everyone keeps talking about running 10 man squads of death company. I think thats wayyy overkill. An 8 man squad with 2 power swords and a fist have been more than enough for me. Took out the spawn of cryptix, 10 genesealers, 2 carnifexs and a warrior last game.
I think this is Sooo overkill....I take two less.
"cough, cough"
I'm kidding. Still, that looks like a good loadout. I'm not sure power swords are that necessary with DC, seeing as how many attacks they get...and they can get even more with the librarian power...
my source tells me its not the only thing in there, but cannot confirm exactly what else is there yet, from GW " 18 new datasheets for the Blood Angels 1st and 2nd Companies, Flesh Tearers, and the Necrons of the Mephrit Dynasty. That’s the equivalent of four Codex Supplements in one book!
- new warlord traits, relics and force organisation charts for all four armies"
so that might be the only BA specific detachment, unless perhaps there is one for 2nd company as well?
sounds like necrons, SOB and flesh tearers get something
will post more when I have it tho,
Automatically Appended Next Post: got some more pics,
Quick question about Detachments, Formations and Special Rules/Command Benefits:
if I build the Battle Company on pages 98-99 I get all three special rules: Angel's Virtue, Objective Secured and Red Thirst?
If I build the Baal Strike Force on page 110 I get Angel's Virtue and Red Thirst..... but no Objective Secured?
If I build an army using the Combined Arms Detachment or Allied Detachment on page 122 of the BRB I will only get Ideal Mission Commander/Objective Secured and Objective Secured, respectively.... but no Red Thirst?
pejota wrote: Quick question about Detachments, Formations and Special Rules/Command Benefits:
if I build the Battle Company on pages 98-99 I get all three special rules: Angel's Virtue, Objective Secured and Red Thirst?
If I build the Baal Strike Force on page 110 I get Angel's Virtue and Red Thirst..... but no Objective Secured?
If I build an army using the Combined Arms Detachment or Allied Detachment on page 122 of the BRB I will only get Ideal Mission Commander/Objective Secured and Objective Secured, respectively.... but no Red Thirst?
Formation:
1 Death Company Squad
1 Vanguard Veteran Squad
1 Assault Squad
1 Furioso Dreadnought
1 Stormraven Gunship
Restrictions
All units in this formation must either be equipped with jump packs or begin the game embarked on the formation's Stormraven gunship
Special Rules
Crusader
Crimson Thunderbolt: On the turn in which a unit from this Formation disembarks from this Formation's Stormraven Gunship, it can re-roll failed charge rolls and has the Rage special rule
Poised to Strike: All units in this formation equipped with jump packs must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. When making Reserve Rolls, make a single roll for the entire Formation, which you can choose to re-roll. If successful, all units in this Formation arrive from Reserve.
Rain of Blood: When a unit from this Formation arrives by Deep Strike, it gains the Counter-attack and Fearless special rules until the start of your next turn.
Trying to read the rest...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Angel's Wrath Intervention Force
Restrictions:
All units in this formation must be equipped with jump packs.
Special rules
Guided Drop: This formation must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Make a single Reserve roll for the entire formation. If successful, all units arrive from the formation. The formation's units of Vanguard Veteran must be placed first, and units of Assault Marines do not scatter so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the Vanguard Veteran unit.
Meteoric Impact: Immediately after deploying, any enemy unit within 6" of any unit gtom this formation suffers a Strength 4 AP - hit for each of their models which is within 6" of a model from this formation. In addition, these enemy units must move as if they are in difficult terrain until the end of their next phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Angel's Fury Spearhead Force
Formation
3 Tactical Squads
3 Stormraven Gunships
Restrictions
Each Tactical squad must include 10 models. The Sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take Dedicated Transports, and must begin the game embarked on the Stormraven Gunships in this Formation.
Special Rules
Can't read the first Special Rule
The second is Objective Secured for the Tacticals
The last one is for the entire formation to arrive at once and then something about turn one, but can't see exactly what.
Why as so many people dismissing VV? The entire unit can take Hand Flamers and/or Inferno Pistols. Not to mention giving the Sgt a Relic Blade. 3 S7 attacks at I5, anyone?
Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.
Special rules:
Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured:
All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
benjak wrote: If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
i Think the 1200pts of Tactical squads, that won't arrive until T2, mean this will be fun but not ground breaking?
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.
You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
The ravens seem nice, and I'll probably buy a third so I can do it, but...
I know I'm going to almost auto-lose some games just because I fail the rerollable reserve roll for the ravens. Even if the tax troops from the other detachment manage to hide like cowards, I'll still have jump packing troops coming in without that bonus.
I fail rerollable reserve rolls like it's going out of style.
niv-mizzet wrote: The ravens seem nice, and I'll probably buy a third so I can do it, but...
I know I'm going to almost auto-lose some games just because I fail the rerollable reserve roll for the ravens. Even if the tax troops from the other detachment manage to hide like cowards, I'll still have jump packing troops coming in without that bonus.
I fail rerollable reserve rolls like it's going out of style.
Bring a 75 point Damocles command Rhino. +1 to reserves and an orbital bombardment. You can take it as a non-slot HQ in your CAD. Then you can still squeeze in an HQ and 20-25 death company to do your dirty work by assaulting out of reserves.
tomjoad wrote: I cannot imagine NOT using the 4 Elites detachment (PS - do we have a name on that?). Every list I imagine starts with 2 x Death Co and 2 xfuriosos in a pod.
What do you think about loosing the Objective Secured special rule using formations? I love e new formations but Objective Secured seems too good to loose.
tomjoad wrote: I cannot imagine NOT using the 4 Elites detachment (PS - do we have a name on that?). Every list I imagine starts with 2 x Death Co and 2 xfuriosos in a pod.
What do you think about loosing the Objective Secured special rule using formations? I love e new formations but Objective Secured seems too good to loose.
You're only losing ObSec on a couple units, though. A pair of tac squads, or maybe scouts, plus transports. The reason I like that formation is that it allows you to load up on squads that never would have had ObSec to begin with.
Keep in mind, though, that I wrote that before we saw the triple Strom raven dataslate, which might change things.
Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.
Special rules:
Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured:
All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
Whoaaa assault from reserves is finally back!! It's get a hefty price tag, but damn that could be dirty if orchestrated properly
Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.
Special rules:
Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured:
All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
Whoaaa assault from reserves is finally back!! It's get a hefty price tag, but damn that could be dirty if orchestrated properly
The only problem is you need to be in terminator armour to benefit from the teleport homer.
S you need to have some locater beacons nearby as well, as which point the area is probably to congested to pull off assaults anyway or your scout bikes (only thing that can get their turn 1) could assault anyway!
Restrictions:
Each stormraven gunship must include10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.
Special rules:
Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured:
All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
Whoaaa assault from reserves is finally back!! It's get a hefty price tag, but damn that could be dirty if orchestrated properly
The only problem is you need to be in terminator armour to benefit from the teleport homer.
S you need to have some locater beacons nearby as well, as which point the area is probably to congested to pull off assaults anyway or your scout bikes (only thing that can get their turn 1) could assault anyway!
Except the formation reads that if you're within 12" of TWO teleport homers with any deep striking Blood Angels unit, then you do not scatter and can charge.
Restrictions: Each stormraven gunship must include10 models. The sergeant of each tactical squad in this formation must take a teleport homer as a free upgrade. This formations tactical squads cannot take dedicated transports and must begin the game embarked in the stormraven gunships from this formation.
Special rules:
Augur triangulation: If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured: All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force: When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
If this is true, how's this going to affect the meta? I
Whoaaa assault from reserves is finally back!! It's get a hefty price tag, but damn that could be dirty if orchestrated properly
The only problem is you need to be in terminator armour to benefit from the teleport homer.
S you need to have some locater beacons nearby as well, as which point the area is probably to congested to pull off assaults anyway or your scout bikes (only thing that can get their turn 1) could assault anyway!
Why the triangulationator states you dont scatter. it has nothing to do with terminator armor.
the only stipulation is that you deep strike. edit: within 12" of 2 (man i cant brain today)
I would love to see some crazy insane vanguard unit come out and punch some doods t2.
The formation makes no distinction between what the Teleport Homer can affect. So if you want to DS some Death Company using this formation, you can still gain the benefit.
Do the Tac squads with the teleport homers have to be deployed on the board for other squads to make use of the augur triangulation or can they remain embarked on the storm ravens? If the latter is true, holy crap would that be good. You could orchestrate a truly massive T2 assault with DC/SG/whathaveyou deepstriking in, combined with all of those tac marines flaming stuff then charging in with a power weapon of choice. Could be pretty nasty.
Yeah that means they would have to be able to kill at least two storm ravens turn one to prevent the carnarge pinpoint deepstriking, assaulting DC would surely unleash. Not entirely likely. Something to give a +1 to reserve rolls is practically mandatory though since youre looking at ~EVERYTHING in reserve. Even with the reroll, I'd like to see that reroll on a 2+.
astro_nomicon wrote: Yeah that means they would have to be able to kill at least two storm ravens turn one to prevent the carnarge pinpoint deepstriking, assaulting DC would surely unleash. Not entirely likely. Something to give a +1 to reserve rolls is practically mandatory though since youre looking at ~EVERYTHING in reserve. Even with the reroll, I'd like to see that reroll on a 2+.
Well there's the FW Damocles Command Rhino that was mentioned earlier, but it suffers from well, being a Rhino. I think there is a FW Land Raider variant that provides a similar bonus, but it suffers form well, being a Land Raider. I can't think of anything else at the moment barring allies, and it seems like its going to be damn near impossible to fit any allies in anyway. You're looking at ~1200 points to get the formation and then more points on Blood Angels stuff that can make use of it. I guess just hiding that rhino is going to be the best option that I know of.
Also would suggest getting a com relay some how considering T2 you still needa roll for guys.
Oh! though a though. the only stipulation is that the deepstriking unit arrives within two ravens. So its entirly possibile that on T1 you move the ravens max speed straight infront of something juicy and deepstrike drop pods for maximum carnage. ohman oh man if that works the way i think it works T1 DC Dreads in the face
Someone suggested using the archangel formation. 1 terminator Libby and 2 assault terminator squads. No troop tax and gives you the ability to reroll reserve rolls for your terminators. Mates pretty well with the spearhead formation to maximize a turn 2 alpha strike
In such a situation, you could even start with the Terminator Libby in cover rather than DS him. That way if you mess up your rolls you don't autolose.
You could always add something to give yourself a +1 on your reserve-rolls.
That way you might auto-lose 1 in 36 games, but that's a risk I am willing to take
We have around 12 more formations/detachments to go from Exterminatus, so there will probably be some more wacky combinations we can geek out over.
I think Archangels will be the way to go with the Stoirmraven Formation, but I don't think all-Termies is the best option. Certainly a squad will do for instant tankbusting, but for assault purposes I'd rather have something capable of sweeping and that throws down more attacks. Vanguard are the best for this since Archangels can't run DC, keep em cheap with just one power weapon/Reliuc Blade and they should still do well enough against most targets, leaving the Dreads and Termies to go after harder units.
While it doesn't use the Assault potential, Sternguard might be good for the podless precision drop as well, as it at least saves on the cost of a pod and could be just as reliable.
Holy s#!+balls! Death company + death company dreads assaulting from deep strike! Add two minimum scout squads and a captain (can chaplain take relics?) with magic jump pack (using regular detachment). Enemy is auto dead unless they have A LOT of units with interceptor. People where wishing for deep strike assault back. Now it is, the game is broken. I'm swooning over BA, but fear for the future of the meta.
Stormraven detachment
3x Stormraven - built for anti-air/armour.
3x tactical - minimum for objective holding and crowd control.
Regular BA detachment
1x Captain with wing of awesome for reserves re-roll etc..
2x scouts - minimum for objective holding and some light crowd control.
AS MANY DEATH COMPANY AS YOU CAN FIT IN THE POINTS LIMIT!
I like the possibilities of this formation BUT I'm not buying 2 more storm ravens just to use it. If I already had 2 maybe I'd buy a third one but 2 is just too much.
benjak wrote: Augur triangulation:
If a friendly unit with the Blood angels faction arrives from deep strike reserve within 12" of at least two models from the formation equipped with teleport homers then it does not scatter and can charge in the same turn it arrives.
Objective secured:
All troops units from this formation have the objective secured special rule (see page blah blah)
Spearhead strike force:
When making reserve rolls make a single roll for the entire formation, which you can choose to re-reoll. If successful, all units arrive from the formation.You can make a reserve roll for this formation from the start of turn 1.
Something to consider, whilst you may to assault despite arriving by deep strike reserve, this rule does not allow you to charge on game turn 1, correct?
Also, would a unit disembarking from a drop pod, which has arrived from deep strike reserve, be able to assault?
Also, would a unit arriving from GoI, assuming it was from the BA Faction, be able to assault?
BaronVonSnakPak wrote: Do Vanguard Vets have a place in a BA list, or is there no point due to DC?
if you want to take the Angel's Wrath formation you need one Squad of Vanguard Veterans and two squads of Assault Marines. So they definitely have a place. It is a good way to get more Assault Squads on the board. VVs aren't terrible, better things exist for the Elites slot. Hence why the formation is good.
BaronVonSnakPak wrote: Do Vanguard Vets have a place in a BA list, or is there no point due to DC?
I'm thinking of putting a squad of 6 or 7 in my TAC list with melta bombs for everybody. Throw in a priest and Knights will have to be leary of getting too close.
BaronVonSnakPak wrote: Do Vanguard Vets have a place in a BA list, or is there no point due to DC?
if you want to take the Angel's Wrath formation you need one Squad of Vanguard Veterans and two squads of Assault Marines. So they definitely have a place. It is a good way to get more Assault Squads on the board. VVs aren't terrible, better things exist for the Elites slot. Hence why the formation is good.
Depending on what you want to do with them yes I think there is.
I am going to remaking one of My normal Assault Squads into a VV Squad. The other thing is to keep them Cheap.
>Squad Leader with Paired Lighting Claws
>7x with CCW/Bolt Pistol
>2x With Plasma Pistol
>All with Jump Packs
All for about 280 points, it is a little pricy but it can do well.
I have also been Running a Wolf Guard unit like this with just the Paired Wolf Claws out of a Stormwolf and it has been very effective.
Also, would a unit arriving from GoI, assuming it was from the BA Faction, be able to assault?
GOI has writen limitation that the formation doesn't over rule.
Even if there was no charging on T1 with drop dreads, you could always chuck em on the ravens.
Drop some chump Assault marines or a DC jump unit then join them with all the tactical on T2 for delicious Furious initiative
Again, Dreads are still disembarking from the Raven, same difference. Those embarked tacticals are the same.
Now the key question is, how to make this formation effective? I would also suggest including some form of reserve manipulation, as you may need help to get those assaulting units into play.
But let's go with this thread. I have a summary of the changes in my thread, feel free to copy it into your 
. Red thirst plus Speed of Primarch nasty +2 
Does 
