As title says I have the BA Codex in hand, ask away!

<Deleted...stupid joke >

Awesome, thanks for doing this!

Questions:
Can Sanguinary Priests take Terminator Armour?
Do Assaults still get discounts on Transports if they remove Jump Packs?
What are the minimum/maximum Death Co squad size?
Can Tactical/Assault Sergeants wield 2 upgraded pistols?

Did I hear correctly that Assault Squads were moved out of troops? Did any of the BA "supercharged" vehicles slow down? Did Dante finally get Eternal Warrior? Finally, can BA Land Raiders still deep strike?

Valete,

JohnS

jasper76 wrote:Does it say when the Necron codex is coming out?

(Couldn't help myself )

Haha not that I saw!

Paradigm wrote:Awesome, thanks for doing this!

Questions:
Can Sanguinary Priests take Terminator Armour?
Do Assaults still get discounts on Transports if they remove Jump Packs?
What are the minimum/maximum Death Co squad size?
Can Tactical/Assault Sergeants wield 2 upgraded pistols?

Priests can't take Terminator Armor
If they remove their jump packs, they get a rhino, or drop pod for free!
Death company - 5 minimum, 15 maximum
It says they mate take items from the lists, so I would say yes, 2 different pistols is allowed.

So no discount on Razorbacks for jumpers?
Can you take multiple Death Companies?

Landspeeder Storm an option for Scouts?

 cygnnus wrote:
Did I hear correctly that Assault Squads were moved out of troops? Did any of the BA "supercharged" vehicles slow down? Did Dante finally get Eternal Warrior? Finally, can BA Land Raiders still deep strike?

Valete,

JohnS

Assault marines are not troops any more.
Only vehicles that are fast are Baal predators. rhino, and razorbacks
Dante is EW
BA LR cannot deepstrike as far as I saw.

Someone posted you can upgrade the normal predator and Vindicator to be fast as well. True?

Eldarain wrote:So no discount on Razorbacks for jumpers?
Can you take multiple Death Companies?

No discount for Razrobacks for Assault marines, in fact it isn't even an option to take it as a transport, have to use a heavy slot to get a razorback for assault marines.
No restriction on how many units of Death Company you can take.

Hulksmash wrote:Landspeeder Storm an option for Scouts?

It is not.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Someone posted you can upgrade the normal predator and Vindicator to be fast as well. True?

There is, itas farily cheap.

Has the storm raven moved to FA?
I understand Sanguinary priests are now HQ, can you still take up to 3 per slot?
Can devs take flak missiles?
Only terminators can take landraiders as DT?

Thanks

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Has the storm raven moved to FA?
I understand Sanguinary priests are now HQ, can you still take up to 3 per slot?
Can devs take flak missiles?
Only terminators can take landraiders as DT?

Thanks

Raven is heavy.
Orly one per slot, so max 2 per detachment, allowing for no other HQs
Yes 10pts each.
Yes only Terminators can.

Also there is Tycho 1 and Tycho 2!

Please do NOT post pictures/scans of released books, and certainly don't upload them to the Dakka gallery. --Janthkin

Does the Baal still have Scout now that it's in HS?

Do ASM's still have the option for double special weapons or are they back to just Plasma Pistols? Can they still get Razorback transports?

Were the rumored changes to Mephiston true? Lower statline but IC?

Can you post the Death company squad options please!

 Vaktathi wrote:
Does the Baal still have Scout now that it's in HS?

Do ASM's still have the option for double special weapons or are they back to just Plasma Pistols? Can they still get Razorback transports?

Baal no longer have scout :(
They can take 2 special weapons still, but they don't have RB as transports. TO get a RB for them you would have to use a Fast attack spot.

Interesting, I guessed they'd lose Scout, but the ASM's not being able to take a Razorback is somewhat surprising.

actually, I just checked C:SM, apparently they made that change there too, hadn't realized that. Looks like they're *really* bringing them back into the "Codex Adherent" mode.

Orblivion wrote:Were the rumored changes to Mephiston true? Lower statline but IC?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:Can you post the Death company squad options please!

Are Baals cheaper, or at least have cheaper sponsons?

Point costs on Astorath, Mephiston, Sanguinor and Dante?

How many points were the DC each sir? I can't see in the pic. You rock btw.

 Thud wrote:
Are Baals cheaper, or at least have cheaper sponsons?

Point costs on Astorath, Mephiston, Sanguinor and Dante?

Please don't post exact point costs. --Janthkin

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:
How many points were the DC each sir? I can't see in the pic. You rock btw.

Are Furiosos still WS6? And did DC dreads get WS4 like the DC?

I was dreading that Sanguinary Priest were going to be 1 per HQ

Are you still able to take a Chaplain as an Elite choice?

Thanks! I'll have your baby now if you'd like!

A quick refresher on the guidelines from the army lists forum may be beneficial, as you're violating them very well. Yes, everyone wants to know everything, but this forum typically doesn't allow it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/281186.page

Thud wrote:Are Furiosos still WS6? And did DC dreads get WS4 like the DC?

Furioso - WS5
DC Dread - WS4

PastelAvenger wrote:I was dreading that Sanguinary Priest were going to be 1 per HQ

Are you still able to take a Chaplain as an Elite choice?

Chaplain = HQ, although Lemartes = Elite

lobbywatson wrote:Thanks! I'll have your baby now if you'd like!

As a nurse I need to inform you it is not possible for a man to give birth.

Are Dante and Gabriel Seth Lords of War?

Is there any way of making Assault Marines troops again (such as a HQ choice for example)?

What are the point costs of Assault, Tactical and Devastator Marines?

Do you have to buy the Veteran Sergeant for squads?

What are the changes to Sanguinior?

Any new units/models?

Thanks in advance!
(sorry for all the questions xD)

Silly question but if you take a death company squad can it include a DC dread as a single elite choice or would that be two slots

Terminators as the new kit comes with a banner can you take terminator command squads?

Can the priests be given jump packs or bikes as they cant take termie armour?

Can Sanguinary Priests take bikes/jump packs?

3ppm for jump pack? 15 for bike?

 troa wrote:
A quick refresher on the guidelines from the army lists forum may be beneficial, as you're violating them very well. Yes, everyone wants to know everything, but this forum typically doesn't allow it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/281186.page

Thanks, but I am not doing anything different then found in the News and Rumor thread, if something is not allowed I would ask a moderator to tell me what specifically and I will take care of it. If this needs to be moved to the news and rumors then please do so. Thanks!

This page: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/456972.page

May also be relevant, along with this specific guideline from that forum:

"4) Please DO NOT post full unit stats or rules unless you have explicit permission from the copyright holder to do so.

While it may be relatively easy to find a scanned copy of just about anything you're looking for on the internet, Dakka will never be one of those places. It is okay to post rumors or partial information about rules, but posting for example, the entirety of a unit's rules on this site is not allowed and will be removed. When in doubt, the easy rule of thumb is: Would the copyrighted information I am going to post allow other players to skip purchasing something they would normally need to purchase in order to legally obtain said information? If the answer is yes, then please do not post it here. "

Are Honour Guards gone? Replaced with Command Squads? Can they take bikes or jump packs? Special weapons etc?

Where does Sanguinary Guard sit. I heard you can take up to 10 of them.

Are they still as expensive as terminators and did they get any rules overhauls?

What are the Relic costs?

soomemafia wrote:Are Dante and Gabriel Seth Lords of War?

Is there any way of making Assault Marines troops again (such as a HQ choice for example)?

What are the point costs of Assault, Tactical and Devastator Marines?

Do you have to buy the Veteran Sergeant for squads?

What are the changes to Sanguinior?

Any new units/models?

Thanks in advance!
(sorry for all the questions xD)

They are both LOW
There is no force manipulation at all in the codex as which seems to be the trend.
I will hold off on squad point costs for now until I get the go ahead from Mods.
Veterans sargs are an optional upgrade.
No new units or models

Motograter wrote:Silly question but if you take a death company squad can it include a DC dread as a single elite choice or would that be two slots

Terminators as the new kit comes with a banner can you take terminator command squads?

Can the priests be given jump packs or bikes as they cant take termie armour?

2 slots for the DC and DC dread
No terminator CS
They can take JP and bikes.

BeeCee wrote:Can Sanguinary Priests take bikes/jump packs?

3ppm for jump pack? 15 for bike?

No specific points values

With the terminators getting a banner what does the banner do. Does it give anything more than the regular SM banner?

Where are Drop Pods located in the codex? As Fast Attack or as some slotless thing?

I see Mephiston has an option to roll Sanguine powers...

Could you elaborate as to what they are?

Thud wrote:Are Honour Guards gone? Replaced with Command Squads? Can they take bikes or jump packs? Special weapons etc?

No honor guard, there is command squads, they can take JP but not bikes, they can all take Special weapons.

Icculus wrote:Where does Sanguinary Guard sit. I heard you can take up to 10 of them.

Are they still as expensive as terminators and did they get any rules overhauls?

Sang guard are max 10 now
As for differences between old codex and new, I can't tell you. I just started BA. But i do believe assault terminators are cheaper.

WellSpokenMan wrote:What are the Relic costs?

Between 5-25 pts.

Is there any other formation/detachment other then the one we saw already with the +1I.

What do the Glaives/Axes Encarmine do now (Sanguary Guard weapons)?

Are the Frag Cannon's stats still the same?

Can Bikers take grav guns now?

Are you sure about no Fast engines for Predators/Vindicators? Sounds like something that could be in the vehicle wargear list.

Motograter wrote:With the terminators getting a banner what does the banner do. Does it give anything more than the regular SM banner?

Same as the SM, normal company standard.

unfassbarnathan wrote:Where are Drop Pods located in the codex? As Fast Attack or as some slotless thing?

DP are FA

IHateNids wrote:I see Mephiston has an option to roll Sanguine powers...

Could you elaborate as to what they are?

Exactly as rumored.

What are the Relics, 'cause those costs seem too good to be true.

Also, can Libby Dreads take a DP as DT?

Thanks for posting. What are the general vehicle upgrades?

lobbywatson wrote:Is there any other formation/detachment other then the one we saw already with the +1I.

Nope

Redemption wrote:What do the Glaives/Axes Encarmine do now (Sanguary Guard weapons)?

Are the Frag Cannon's stats still the same?

Can Bikers take grav guns now?

Are you sure about no Fast engines for Predators/Vindicators? Sounds like something that could be in the vehicle wargear list.

Sword is AP 3, master crafted, Glaive Ap 2 Str +1, master crafted, unwieldy
Str 6, Assault 2, Rending
They can take Grav
Theyc an actually sorry. It a addon fairly cheap.

Thanks for posting twinner.

So far everything looks awesome except maybe the clogged Elite area; but I'm excited to start making lists!

WellSpokenMan wrote:What are the Relics, 'cause those costs seem too good to be true.

Also, can Libby Dreads take a DP as DT?

Relics are as spoiled.
Libby Dread can take a DP as DT

Warhams-77 wrote:Thanks for posting. What are the general vehicle upgrades?

Dozerblade, Storm Bolter, Extra Armor, Hunter-Killer Missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Thanks for posting twinner.

So far everything looks awesome except maybe the clogged Elite area; but I'm excited to start making lists!

My list will be:

1x Astorath
2x Scout Squads – w/ Cloaks, Snipers, Missile
2x Death Company – w/ 10 Guys, Jump Packs, 3x Power Fists
2x Assault Squad – w/ 10 guys, 2x Meltas, 1x Power Fist
3x Baal Predators – w/ Heavy Bolters
1x Dante

Total : 2000 Exactly.

Please don't allow enthusiasm to overcome common sense. Scans/pictures of pages from the codex shouldn't be reproduced here, nor should complete point information be provided. We're a forum for discussion about rules, not for replication of rules.

 Janthkin wrote:
Please don't allow enthusiasm to overcome common sense. Scans/pictures of pages from the codex shouldn't be reproduced here, nor should complete point information be provided. We're a forum for discussion about rules, not for replication of rules.

Will do, no more pictures or complete point information. thanks for clearing that up.

Thanks for posting.

Are captains and Chaplains costs in line with C: SM?

Is there any limit on who can take Wings of Angels?

Is there any limit on ICs joining Death Company?

Thanks again, you are the man.

What options do you have for Captain?

I'm mainly interested in having an Artificer armor.

Does dante still have hit and run?

How many thunderfire cannons do dante and mephy cost?

Can assault marine squads still take melta guns?

How are the rules for Astorath is he the same?

WellSpokenMan wrote:Thanks for posting.

Are captains and Chaplains costs in line with C: SM?

Is there any limit on who can take Wings of Angels?

Is there any limit on ICs joining Death Company?

Thanks again, you are the man.

Same points as C:SM
Anyone that has the option to take relics can take it.
There is no limit for IC join DC in the DC rules, but there are IC who can only join DC.

soomemafia wrote:What options do you have for Captain?

I'm mainly interested in having an Artificer armor.

You will be happy then.

Are "blood fists" still a thing?

Are Land Speeder Storms there?

th3maninblak wrote:Does dante still have hit and run?

How many thunderfire cannons do dante and mephy cost?

Can assault marine squads still take melta guns?

Dante does have hit and run.
Dante is more then 2, Meph is less then 2.
Yes they can

tehinchman wrote:How are the rules for Astorath is he the same?

No more fearless, only reroll wounds. Axe has changed a lot, no more rerolling invuls, but rolls of 6 are automatic wound and instant death. He is now zealot. More then 50 points cheaper.

 unfassbarnathan wrote:
Are Land Speeder Storms there?

Answered already... nope

Chad Warden wrote:Are "blood fists" still a thing?

not sure what you are referring too

unfassbarnathan wrote:Are Land Speeder Storms there?

Nope


Also TH/SS are the exact same price as old codex.

Over charged engines 10pts for vindicators and preds?

Any information on Gabriel Seth?

Motograter wrote:
Over charged engines 10pts for vindicators and preds?

Any information on Gabriel Seth?

No specific points values

How is Seth looking? Anything interesting there?

twinner wrote:

Motograter wrote:
Over charged engines 10pts for vindicators and preds?

Any information on Gabriel Seth?

Already answered twice, no option at all to make them fast :(

Not that I doubt but other folks are adamant that they can

Can captains get blade encarmines?

You have said that Honor guard have been replaced with command squads. So, 3 questions.

1) is the "medic" of the command squad still a sang priest initiate?
2) can the squad take jump packs?
3) how many and what kinds of heavy and special weapons can they take?

warpspider89 wrote:You have said that Honor guard have been replaced with command squads. So, 3 questions.

1) is the "medic" of the command squad still a sang priest initiate?
2) can the squad take jump packs?
3) how many and what kinds of heavy and special weapons can they take?

Still same idea yeah
Yes
Each can take a special wep. no heavy weps for sqaud

How is the Sanguinary Priest's buff rule worded, ie. can he affect non-BA units?

Captains and blade encarmines yay or nay...

What are the fast attack options?

Thud wrote:How is Seth looking? Anything interesting there?

Seth is about the same cost. LOW. Same wargear, Add rage and furious charge. Whilrlwind of gore changed to adding an additional attack for each 6 rolled to hit. His weapon is now called a blood reaver, str 8, sp 4 rending.

Motograter wrote:

twinner wrote:

Motograter wrote:
Over charged engines 10pts for vindicators and preds?

Any information on Gabriel Seth?

Already answered twice, no option at all to make them fast :(

Not that I doubt but other folks are adamant that they can

Can captains get blade encarmines?

Hey I was wrong, I missed it, Vindicators and Predators can buy fats. Sorry guys, just triple checked and saw I was wrong.

Captains cannot

twinner wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:You have said that Honor guard have been replaced with command squads. So, 3 questions.

1) is the "medic" of the command squad still a sang priest initiate?
2) can the squad take jump packs?
3) how many and what kinds of heavy and special weapons can they take?

Still same idea yeah
Yes
Each can take a special wep. no heavy weps for sqaud

Thanks for the reply bro.

How many special weapons can an assault squad take now?

Crimson wrote:How is the Sanguinary Priest's buff rule worded, ie. can he affect non-BA units?

FNP work for unit, ws does not.

Motograter wrote:Captains and blade encarmines yay or nay...

What are the fast attack options?

Nay unfortunately
8 Fast attack options, of those 3 are bikes, 1 speeder, Rhnio, Razorback, DP, Assault Squad

warpspider89 wrote:

twinner wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:You have said that Honor guard have been replaced with command squads. So, 3 questions.

1) is the "medic" of the command squad still a sang priest initiate?
2) can the squad take jump packs?
3) how many and what kinds of heavy and special weapons can they take?

Still same idea yeah
Yes
Each can take a special wep. no heavy weps for sqaud

Thanks for the reply bro.

How many special weapons can an assault squad take now?

2, and a combi. This is taken at 5 man, or 10 man no difference

Can you speak to Brother pimp Corbulo?

 lobbywatson wrote:
Can you speak to Brother pimp Corbulo?

HQ, a couple more points. Basically the same re-roll. 3 W. Buffs all BA within 6 inches (1 WS, 1 Ini).

Thanks for taking the time on this. So it looks like Meph can hit at strength 12! Sanguine sword to strength 10, transfixing gaze +2

twinner wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
Can you speak to Brother pimp Corbulo?

HQ, a couple more points. Basically the same re-roll. 3 W. Buffs all BA within 6 inches (1 WS, 1 Ini).

Does he still.have the 2+ FNP on himself?

 Rippy wrote:
Thanks for taking the time on this. So it looks like Meph can hit at strength 12! Sanguine sword to strength 10, transfixing gaze +2

You can't go over S10


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:

twinner wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
Can you speak to Brother pimp Corbulo?

HQ, a couple more points. Basically the same re-roll. 3 W. Buffs all BA within 6 inches (1 WS, 1 Ini).

Does he still.have the 2+ FNP on himself?

Unfortunately, no. I would assume that he still benefits from the standard FNP though.

Rippy wrote:Thanks for taking the time on this. So it looks like Meph can hit at strength 12! Sanguine sword to strength 10, transfixing gaze +2

Tranfixing gaze allow him to hit on a 2+ in a challenge, not boost the Str. You have to take a leadership test and get equal or higher for it to go off.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrokenRecord wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Thanks for taking the time on this. So it looks like Meph can hit at strength 12! Sanguine sword to strength 10, transfixing gaze +2

You can't go over S10


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:

twinner wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
Can you speak to Brother pimp Corbulo?

HQ, a couple more points. Basically the same re-roll. 3 W. Buffs all BA within 6 inches (1 WS, 1 Ini).

Does he still.have the 2+ FNP on himself?

Unfortunately, no. I would assume that he still benefits from the standard FNP though.

That is the truth.

So no razorbacks for assault marines. Wow that hits all the BA armies super hard. Well I guess they can repaint them black and play as DC.

Two short questions, you have the french or the english codex?

Is the Stormraven available in FA and Heavy? Or only the latter?

Thanks Twinner

Makumba wrote:So no razorbacks for assault marines. Wow that hits all the BA armies super hard. Well I guess they can repaint them black and play as DC.

Yep double checked not seeing the option.

Warhams-77 wrote:Two short questions, you have the french or the english codex?

Is the Stormraven available in FA and Heavy? Or only the latter?

Thanks Twinner

English
Only Heavy

twinner wrote:

FNP work for unit, ws does not.

So this means FNP for allies, right? Sanguinary Priest in a unit of allied Centurions, for example.

 Crimson wrote:

twinner wrote:

FNP work for unit, ws does not.

So this means FNP for allies, right? Sanguinary Priest in a unit of allied Centurions, for example.

You are correct. What ever unit he is in, has FNP.

twinner wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:Are "blood fists" still a thing?

not sure what you are referring too

Are Dreadnought power fists still called blood fists?

twinner wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:
Did I hear correctly that Assault Squads were moved out of troops? Did any of the BA "supercharged" vehicles slow down? Did Dante finally get Eternal Warrior? Finally, can BA Land Raiders still deep strike?

Valete,

JohnS

Assault marines are not troops any more.
Only vehicles that are fast are Baal predators. rhino, and razorbacks
Dante is EW
BA LR cannot deepstrike as far as I saw.

A...n...d... there goes my interest in Blood Angels. Not that i've been playing much (which could be read as "none") 40K of late, but that does one of my armies. Huh... Hadn't planned on doing it, but that's likely an army on Bartertown now...

Valete,

JohnS

Chad Warden wrote:

twinner wrote:

Chad Warden wrote:Are "blood fists" still a thing?

not sure what you are referring too

Are Dreadnought power fists still called blood fists?

Nope, power fist.

I am leaving for a hour or two, will answer any questions when I get back

Does Dante still not scatter when deep striking?

Does Dante make Sanguinary Guard troops? (Probably not)

I'll just wait for my copy of the codex to answer my questions, but thanks very much for all this food for thought, twinner!

I appreciate it

Again, DON'T POST SPECIFIC POINTS VALUES. It isn't hard to abide by the rules, but if you continue to struggle then we'll have to take further action

Is Lemartes usable now?

What special abilities does The Sanguinor have now?

Around how many 5pt Hormagaunts does it take to equal a Baal Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons?

 Dinamarth wrote:
Does Dante still not scatter when deep striking?

Does Dante make Sanguinary Guard troops? (Probably not)

No HQs in the Codex change any units' place in the FOC. I imagine that this will be the norm from here on out.

Dante's Warlord Trait is Descent of Angels; no word yet on whether or not ot comoletely removes scatter, or if it just reduces it to 6". Apparently, Dante also gets an additional Warlord Trait from one of the other tables as well.

Dinamarth wrote:Does Dante still not scatter when deep striking?

Does Dante make Sanguinary Guard troops? (Probably not)

His profile has nothing about scattering. The warlord trait he has lets all jump, flyer, skimmer unit reroll failed reserve rolls. And Jump and skimmer unit arriving from DS only roll 1 D6 instead of two.
No force org manipulation sorry.

Voidwraith wrote:Is Lemartes usable now?

What special abilities does The Sanguinor have now?

Around how many 5pt Hormagaunts does it take to equal a Baal Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons?

Lemartes has the same stat line as before.With rage and zealot added. His weapon is +2 S Ap 4, Concussive, MC. No more rerolls. And he only gain 1 Attack and Str after taking his first wound. Around the same points
All other friendly BA model with 6" get +1 A. He rerolls hits and wounds in a challenge. he is EW.

Oh my apologies, I completely misread transfixing gaze.

So yeah, I've heard a couple times that Dante gets 2 traits. Izzat true?

niv-mizzet wrote:
So yeah, I've heard a couple times that Dante gets 2 traits. Izzat true?

Hey get his static trait (Descent of Angels) and if your are playing a tactical objective game he get to roll on that table in addition to his static trait.

Is the Reclusiarch gone?

Also, is there a Master of the Forge now or still just techmarines? Are the techmarines still elites?

 Mulletdude wrote:
Is the Reclusiarch gone?

Also, is there a Master of the Forge now or still just techmarines? Are the techmarines still elites?

No reclusiarch
Techmarine is part of the crowded HQ section.

Last question for me I think:

Did they change the god awful rules for glave encarmines?

Other than Seth and Dante do they have any other 3 wound HQs?

Can Death Company Tycho join the Death Company now?

Ok so for real, Dante is apparently just insanely powerful now. Ive always loved his fluff, and thought his rules were really cool (used him all the time), but unless he's close to 275 ish he seems almost TOO powerful.

Great news my "Honor Guard" is back

IIRC he is 2.2 thunderfire cannons. He's rock solid.

Twinner is melta guns available to AM still?
How many thunder fire cannons is the DC dread? 1.25 or more?
How many thunderfire cannons are frag cannons? .20 or more?

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok so for real, Dante is apparently just insanely powerful now. Ive always loved his fluff, and thought his rules were really cool (used him all the time), but unless he's close to 275 ish he seems almost TOO powerful.

Eh. Can still die to 4 lasgun shots. The clan Raukaan dude can still mess him up, as can mind shackle scarabs. I don't know some of the other top tiers by heart and don't own their books, but he's probably about middle-of-the-pack duelist until you start trying to do hit and runs in the calculations of 1 on 1's.

A carnifex can technically die to 4 lasgun shots too, so can Lysander, any T6 and below W4 model can in theory. That doesn't mean it's ever going to happen.

Mindshackle scarabs also mess everything up.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok so for real, Dante is apparently just insanely powerful now. Ive always loved his fluff, and thought his rules were really cool (used him all the time), but unless he's close to 275 ish he seems almost TOO powerful.

Eh. Can still die to 4 lasgun shots. The clan Raukaan dude can still mess him up, as can mind shackle scarabs. I don't know some of the other top tiers by heart and don't own their books, but he's probably about middle-of-the-pack duelist until you start trying to do hit and runs in the calculations of 1 on 1's.

Except he still has a 2+/4++, and will probably have feel no pain. And has eternal warrior. And has 4 wounds. And if hes taken in the special blood angels force org he has 6 attacks (7 with a chapter banner) attacks on the charge at ws7 str7 init 7 ap2. And his rules and warlord trait make him over the top.

So yeah, I would say hes top tier.

niv-mizzet wrote:


Eh. Can still die to 4 lasgun shots.

And a Wraithknight can die to a pair of heavy bolters. They're still really, really good.

niv-mizzet wrote:

The clan Raukaan dude can still mess him up, as can mind shackle scarabs. I don't know some of the other top tiers by heart and don't own their books, but he's probably about middle-of-the-pack duelist until you start trying to do hit and runs in the calculations of 1 on 1's.

Just because he isn't the bestest evar in assault doesn't mean that a powerful combat character for a reasonable price isn't useful. Otherwise, Draigo and the bike Chapter Master would be the only non-support HQ anyone ever ran.

 lobbywatson wrote:
IIRC he is 2.2 thunderfire cannons. He's rock solid.

Twinner is melta guns available to AM still?
How many thunder fire cannons is the DC dread? 1.25 or more?
How many thunderfire cannons are frag cannons? .20 or more?

I didn't know Thunderfire cannons were a unit of measurement now. Would it be fair to say that a 100,000,000 point army could also be expressed as a 1.0 MTFC (Or, a 1.0X10^9 Thunderfire cannons) army?

Thunderfire cannons are a fairly simple unit of measurement that dodge the mod rules on forums. Got the idea from frontlinegaming =)

 DarkLink wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:


Eh. Can still die to 4 lasgun shots.

And a Wraithknight can die to a pair of heavy bolters. They're still really, really good.

niv-mizzet wrote:

The clan Raukaan dude can still mess him up, as can mind shackle scarabs. I don't know some of the other top tiers by heart and don't own their books, but he's probably about middle-of-the-pack duelist until you start trying to do hit and runs in the calculations of 1 on 1's.

Just because he isn't the bestest evar in assault doesn't mean that a powerful combat character for a reasonable price isn't useful. Otherwise, Draigo and the bike Chapter Master would be the only non-support HQ anyone ever ran.

I never said he wasn't. I think he's great. I was just responding to the guy who was saying that he was over the top bestest ever broken.
When I said middle of the pack duelist, I was inferring middle of the pack IN the top tier, not the entire game.

I'm actually interested in a math hammer matchup between his new incarnation and some of the other duelists while abusing his hit and run plus pistol shot every other turn.

My point about the lasguns is that if he tries to tank, 2 tac squads of bolter fire will still drop him just like the old version. He's only as durable as about 160 points of terminators. He needs backup like ablative wounds and a priest nearby, and then you just approach Death Star status. (And cost.)

warpspider89 wrote:Last question for me I think:

Did they change the god awful rules for glave encarmines?

Not familiar with what you are referring to. Sorry this is my frist time using BA.

2x210 wrote:Other than Seth and Dante do they have any other 3 wound HQs?

Captain, Both Tychos, Lib Dread has 3 HP, Mephiton, Then Sanguinor, Astorath, Brother Corbulo

Smacks wrote:Can Death Company Tycho join the Death Company now?

That is the only thing he can join.

th3maninblak wrote:Ok so for real, Dante is apparently just insanely powerful now. Ive always loved his fluff, and thought his rules were really cool (used him all the time), but unless he's close to 275 ish he seems almost TOO powerful.

2.2 Thunderfire cannons (Mods if this isn't allow please say, as other are posting so it seems it is.

lobbywatson wrote:IIRC he is 2.2 thunderfire cannons. He's rock solid.

Twinner is melta guns available to AM still?
How many thunder fire cannons is the DC dread? 1.25 or more?
How many thunderfire cannons are frag cannons? .20 or more?

2 Melta per sqaud, and a combi if you want.
DC is Exactly what you posted.
Frag cannon is 1/20th a Thunderfire

Can a Sanguinary Priest count as your warlord?

How many wounds does a sanguinary priest have now that it is an HQ?

Can Sanguinary Priests take relics?

Can Libby dreads take relics?

Can Libby Dreads be your warlord?

Does the Storm Raven still have bloodstrike missiles or have they changed to the AP2 missiles that the space marine codex has.

Thanks!

Since BA are very Codex Adherent (like everyone is rubbing in our face about the loss of Troops ASM), does this mean our Captains change Bikes from FA to troops if they are bike mounted? Does the rule work for Jumppacks/Assault Marines?

Seems it would work since we are so "Codex adherent" *add overly needed sarcasm*

So let me get this straight, he has a sick warlord trait, with the possibility of 2, a melta gun in pistol form, eternal warrior, a str6 ap2 at initiative weapon, artificer armor, a 6 inch fear bubble, a jump pack... am i missing anything?

For 2.20 thunderfire cannons. Holy crap.

Nobody is rubbing anyone's faces in anything.

The internet is awash with BA tears that their troops section has been bought in line with the rest of the game.

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is rubbing anyone's faces in anything.

The internet is awash with BA tears that their troops section has been bought in line with the rest of the game.

Don't feed the troll.

Logan774 wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is rubbing anyone's faces in anything.

The internet is awash with BA tears that their troops section has been bought in line with the rest of the game.

Don't feed the troll.

Just realized I was indeed trolling a little, Sorry about that.

Honestly want to know if Captains would give us troop bikes, it's my favorite part about Codex:Space marine.

I doubt it since they specifically try to stay clear of what makes codex space marines unique :/

twinner wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:Last question for me I think:

Did they change the god awful rules for glave encarmines?

Not familiar with what you are referring to. Sorry this is my frist time using BA.

They are the weapons for sanguinary guard. They were two-handed power swords or axes last edition with the two-handed rule.

Are the assault marines priced the same as the normal codex marines assault marines?

Coyote81 wrote:Honestly want to know if Captains would give us troop bikes, it's my favorite part about Codex:Space marine.

Keep in mind that Codex: Space Marines is still a product of the previous edition. I wouldn't be surprised that the next version removes the Bike troops option as well.

warpspider89 wrote:They are the weapons for sanguinary guard. They were two-handed power swords or axes last edition with the two-handed rule.

He already answered that on the first page; they're two-handed master-crafted power swords/axes.

My list will be:

1x Astorath
2x Scout Squads – w/ Cloaks, Snipers, Missile
2x Death Company – w/ 10 Guys, Jump Packs, 3x Power Fists
2x Assault Squad – w/ 10 guys, 2x Meltas, 1x Power Fist
3x Baal Predators – w/ Heavy Bolters
1x Dante

Total : 2000 Exactly.

Please explain why this will be your list.

 Coyote81 wrote:
Honestly want to know if Captains would give us troop bikes, it's my favorite part about Codex:Space marine.

Oh man are you going to be upset when they redo C:SM.

MaxT wrote:

 Coyote81 wrote:
Honestly want to know if Captains would give us troop bikes, it's my favorite part about Codex:Space marine.

Oh man are you going to be upset when they redo C:SM.

Now, I'm not going to beat around the bush here and pretend that GW cares about fluff, but no bikes as troops or for command squads does make a little sense when it come BA. IIRC most BA loathe using bikes and those that loves using them are kindda' regarded as wierdos, not unlike the scouts from the SW. According to the codex astartes, a space marine should have mastered the dynamics of rapid deployment by attack bikes, before they move on to become assault marines and must maintain their skills in using an attack bike even long after they've entered the 1st company, so I'm actually unsure on how this works with BA since (IIRC) they move directly to the role of being assault marines, after they join the ranks from scouts as a battle brother. My best guess would be that the codex astartes demands the entire 6th company is trained in the art of mounted assault and since the BA 6th company consist only (not counting the dreadnought) of tactical squads, they force this reserve company to focus more on mounted combat and thus the bike squads that are deployed are mostly from this company, used as fast moving assault units/recons but not as objective holders in the same way as White Scars or Ravenwing, since (I imagine) the BA tend to be more unflexible with what roles bikes should be used as, due to their general dismissive nature of assault-/attack bikes. Still, one could argue that the Captain himself could be from the 6th company and as such, he should be more than capable of running a mounted assault that could just as easily match the other codex complaint chapters and in all honesty, this still doesn't truly justify why other codex complaint chapters should be able to launch mounted assaults, if their way of using the bikes should (according to the codex) be identical to how BA would use them. So all in all, sure it's a stretch but I can somehow imagine the logic behind why BA wouldn't have bikes as troops, even if the logic is a bit flawed.

PS. Of course, I won't entertain the idea that this was actually something GW thought about. With the 7th FOC and the axing of anything that unlocks anything as troops, I'm not going to pretend that there was any other reason.

But the old BA fluff says that their entire support company is used as jump packers, they shouldn't even have options to take bikers or attack bikes. That was the root of them having jump packers then other chapters, because when technicly all codex one have same sized companies. Other use them as bikers, drivers for speeders etc and BA field all of them as jp troops.

Makumba wrote:
But the old BA fluff says that their entire support company is used as jump packers, they shouldn't even have options to take bikers or attack bikes. That was the root of them having jump packers then other chapters, because when technicly all codex one have same sized companies. Other use them as bikers, drivers for speeders etc and BA field all of them as jp troops.

It also said that each battle company has the jump packs on standby to run the company with them if needed. We still lost our ability to field ASM's as troops..

What are stats on seth's blood reaver, and does he still kick people in the balls if they miss in CC

 th3maninblak wrote:
So let me get this straight, he has a sick warlord trait, with the possibility of 2, a melta gun in pistol form, eternal warrior, a str6 ap2 at initiative weapon, artificer armor, a 6 inch fear bubble, a jump pack... am i missing anything?

For 2.20 thunderfire cannons. Holy crap.

From what it sounds like, he gets two Warlord traits, one of which is set at DoA. This is frickin' amazing. For less than the price of a Land Raider.

Now, I'm not going to beat around the bush here and pretend that GW cares about fluff, but no bikes as troops or for command squads does make a little sense when it come BA. IIRC most BA loathe using bikes and those that loves using them are kindda' regarded as wierdos,

PLayed BA since 2nd ed and I've never heard that .... where are you getting it? Previous versions of the dex even had numerous pics of guys on bikes so really, where is that coming from? I mean, the previous codex mentions them favoring flight above all else, but I don't remember it even implying that they actually hate bikes.

OP-

Outside of moving it from the HS slot, were there any rules changes to the Stormraven?

Also - in terms of fluff, anything new/different/retconned that might be interesting?

Are furioso dreadnaughts till able to keep making attacks if they successfully wound in close combat?

Where there any buffs to furioso dreadnaughts?

Tycho wrote:

Now, I'm not going to beat around the bush here and pretend that GW cares about fluff, but no bikes as troops or for command squads does make a little sense when it come BA. IIRC most BA loathe using bikes and those that loves using them are kindda' regarded as wierdos,

PLayed BA since 2nd ed and I've never heard that .... where are you getting it? Previous versions of the dex even had numerous pics of guys on bikes so really, where is that coming from? I mean, the previous codex mentions them favoring flight above all else, but I don't remember it even implying that they actually hate bikes.

OP-

Outside of moving it from the HS slot, were there any rules changes to the Stormraven?

Also - in terms of fluff, anything new/different/retconned that might be interesting?

Only got the 5th edition dex on me, but here's what it says on page 30:

"The Blood Angels operate fewer Bike Squads than other Space Marine Chapters. Bikers are traditionally drafted from a Chapter's Assault Squad, and few Blood Angels are anything but reluctant to yield their jump pack for a ground-bound bike. Accordingly, the Blood Angels' bikers are often viewed by their brethren as somewhat peculiar.."

Further down the text:

"Unable as they are to field a single unstoppable bike assault force, the Blood Angels chiefly employ their Bike Squads as fast-moving reconnaissance and ambush troops."

How's the fluff?

Are there any blurbs about their descendants?

Logan774 wrote:Can a Sanguinary Priest count as your warlord?

How many wounds does a sanguinary priest have now that it is an HQ?

Can Sanguinary Priests take relics?

Can Libby dreads take relics?

Can Libby Dreads be your warlord?

Does the Storm Raven still have bloodstrike missiles or have they changed to the AP2 missiles that the space marine codex has.

Thanks!

Sang Priests have 2 wounds,.
Priests can take relics
Lib dreadnoughts cannot take relics.
They can be your warlord
The missile are str 8 ape 2

Mulletdude wrote:Are the assault marines priced the same as the normal codex marines assault marines?

Different due to the fact they can take special weapons.

wuestenfux wrote:

My list will be:

1x Astorath
2x Scout Squads – w/ Cloaks, Snipers, Missile
2x Death Company – w/ 10 Guys, Jump Packs, 3x Power Fists
2x Assault Squad – w/ 10 guys, 2x Meltas, 1x Power Fist
3x Baal Predators – w/ Heavy Bolters
1x Dante

Total : 2000 Exactly.

Please explain why this will be your list.

Well I simply had most of the models, and love jump packs for BA. Also I just love Baal preds, I don't expect it to be good, but it will be fun

ThatSwellFella wrote:What are stats on seth's blood reaver, and does he still kick people in the balls if they miss in CC

Reaver is x2 S, AP 4, Melee, rending, two-handed. And he has nothing to do with opponent's missing.

Tycho wrote:

Now, I'm not going to beat around the bush here and pretend that GW cares about fluff, but no bikes as troops or for command squads does make a little sense when it come BA. IIRC most BA loathe using bikes and those that loves using them are kindda' regarded as wierdos,

PLayed BA since 2nd ed and I've never heard that .... where are you getting it? Previous versions of the dex even had numerous pics of guys on bikes so really, where is that coming from? I mean, the previous codex mentions them favoring flight above all else, but I don't remember it even implying that they actually hate bikes.

OP-

Outside of moving it from the HS slot, were there any rules changes to the Stormraven?

Also - in terms of fluff, anything new/different/retconned that might be interesting?

Missile got changed to normal marines.other then that exact same.
I didn't read the fluff yet sorry :(

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Are furioso dreadnaughts till able to keep making attacks if they successfully wound in close combat?

Where there any buffs to furioso dreadnaughts?

It got nerfed, no more additional attacks. Point stayed the same, but upgrades cost more.

zeromaeus wrote:How's the fluff?

Are there any blurbs about their descendants?

As above, I havent read it yet sorry.

What are the stats of Blood Talons (the claw-looking DDCW's)?

 soomemafia wrote:
What are the stats of Blood Talons (the claw-looking DDCW's)?

Blood Talons are Sx2, AP2, Shred

Can Death Company score objectives or are they still non-scoring?

Can you take Land Raiders as Heavy Support since they are no longer DT?

Can assault marine sgts take storm shields, and if so, are the shields in line with the cost for vanguard vets?

twinner wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Are furioso dreadnoughts till able to keep making attacks if they successfully wound in close combat?

Where there any buffs to furioso dreadnoughts?

It got nerfed, no more additional attacks. Point stayed the same, but upgrades cost more.

Well that certainly sucks, it was a fun dreadnought to run, but it just wasn't very good last codex and if it is even worse now I think I will probably skip the new codex after seeing the lackluster update it got.

The Baal Strike Force Detatchment gets +1Init, is that for one turn or for the whole game?

crazyK wrote:Can Death Company score objectives or are they still non-scoring?

Can you take Land Raiders as Heavy Support since they are no longer DT?

Death company are scoring like any non-troop unit.
LR can be taken as HS.

Ghost_Raptur wrote:Can assault marine sgts take storm shields, and if so, are the shields in line with the cost for vanguard vets?

They can take combat shields. Real cheap on points.

WellSpokenMan wrote:The Baal Strike Force Detatchment gets +1Init, is that for one turn or for the whole game?

It is non-stop homie. +1 I on any charge in the game if the model is chosen under the formation.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Thunderfire cannons are a fairly simple unit of measurement that dodge the mod rules on forums. Got the idea from frontlinegaming =)

It's a strange rule. I mean, the codices don't say "Classified information, do not disseminate" or anything. But w/e. I guess it does make some sense if you want to dodge giving exact figures out.

Can Death Company still take dual hammers?

Thanks for sharing this btw!

Question, can Priests take Artificer armor and/or other upgrades from the equipment section?

Can they get Storm shields or any kind of an invul?

TheCustomLime wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Thunderfire cannons are a fairly simple unit of measurement that dodge the mod rules on forums. Got the idea from frontlinegaming =)

It's a strange rule. I mean, the codices don't say "Classified information, do not disseminate" or anything. But w/e. I guess it does make some sense if you want to dodge giving exact figures out.

Can Death Company still take dual hammers?

Every single DC can take a hammer if you wanted too.

More Dakka wrote:Thanks for sharing this btw!

Question, can Priests take Artificer armor and/or other upgrades from the equipment section?

Can they get Storm shields or any kind of an invul?

No option for artificer armor. No way to give an invul as far as I saw.

DOH! Can Sang Guard take Storm Shields?

Do space marine tactical sergeants get artificer armor option?

Well Im slacking, guess I should go get the book. Damn kids on my lawn.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

Makumba wrote:
But the old BA fluff says that their entire support company is used as jump packers, they shouldn't even have options to take bikers or attack bikes. That was the root of them having jump packers then other chapters, because when technicly all codex one have same sized companies. Other use them as bikers, drivers for speeders etc and BA field all of them as jp troops.

It also said that each battle company has the jump packs on standby to run the company with them if needed. We still lost our ability to field ASM's as troops..

everyone lost that ability, GK orks, SW's EVERYONE...

you ahve to be super dooper special like eldar or C:sm to make anything into troops.

the fact that troops are now scoring, makes the old FOC swap totally redundant and just lets people spam elite units instead of paying a troops tax like almost everyone else.

its a very minor change, take two min squads of troops like veryone else and enjoy filling up the other slots with ASM's

 easysauce wrote:
everyone lost that ability, GK orks, SW's EVERYONE...
you ahve to be super dooper special like eldar or C:sm to make anything into troops.
the fact that troops are now scoring, makes the old FOC swap totally redundant and just lets people spam elite units instead of paying a troops tax like almost everyone else.
its a very minor change, take two min squads of troops like veryone else and enjoy filling up the other slots with ASM's

It's different.
They lost the "If you take X, then you may take unit Y as troops."
It's like Dante with the Sanguinary Guard and we all know that would be gone.
But moving a Troop-only unit to Fast Attack is different and I don't think anyone expected that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Last question for me I think:
Did they change the god awful rules for glave encarmines?

Semi
They are still the same, but the guys wielding them are now a lot cheaper.

I always thought Sanguinaries needed bigger squads, be cheaper, get better weapons OR more survivability.
Getting two of those is quite awesome and more than I expected.

Kangodo wrote:

But moving a Troop-only unit to Fast Attack is different and I don't think anyone expected that.

People may not have expected it, but they certainly feared it. They knew, deep down, that it was an anomaly. Nobody else gets jump infantry as troops. They're elites or fast attack. Scourges, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Sky Claws, Vanilla Assault Marines, Stormboyz etc.

This codex seems, to a first approximation, to be medicore at best. The assault marines to FA thing isn't as important as an overall meh feeling to the whole thing. If tactical marines weren't one of the worst things in the game, this change would be fine with me, actually.

Another codex to be mowed down by the elite codices. I don't hate it, but I really don't like it either. It's better than the old 5th codex, but that's a really, really low bar.

Dante is finally good, but he got good just in time to be slaughtered by a gravstar. Not really inspiring.

Martel732 wrote:
This codex seems, to a first approximation, to be medicore at best. The assault marines to FA thing isn't as important as an overall meh feeling to the whole thing. If tactical marines weren't one of the worst things in the game, this change would be fine with me, actually.

Another codex to be mowed down by the elite codices. I don't hate it, but I really don't like it either. It's better than the old 5th codex, but that's a really, really low bar.

Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

From what I can tell of 7th, it's about either surviving withering firepower or silencing the withering firepower with firepower of your own. I don't see how this codex does either, honestly.

Martel732 wrote:
From what I can tell of 7th, it's about either surviving withering firepower or silencing the withering firepower with firepower of your own. I don't see how this codex does either, honestly.

And you expected that from a Blood Angels army? I'm not trying to be an ass, but that is so not what our army is about.

Just wait until the stupid xenos get their new codices and get nerfed down to being equal with the rest of us!

To be fair, the BA were quite good in shoot outs in 5th. 6th gutted nearly all of our 5th ed tricks, and so I kind of didn't know what to expect.

I suspect we will find ourselves stranded in the can't shoot well enough, but can't assault well enough no man's land that kind of plagued us with the White Dwarf codex. Glancing through the codex, I have no more confidence against Eldar than I did before.

Let it sit for awhile, Martel, and see what happens. You already had the reputation as the guy on Dakka who had BA but thought they were trash.

As for Eldar, to be fair I don't know I'd have confidence against the cheesier Eldar lists regardless of who I play as.

Well, they were trash. The promotion to medicore is welcomed, but they still have all the problems of meqs, and have fewer special snowflakes than the standard marine book.

Martel732 wrote:
To be fair, the BA were quite good in shoot outs in 5th. 6th gutted nearly all of our 5th ed tricks, and so I kind of didn't know what to expect.

I suspect we will find ourselves stranded in the can't shoot well enough, but can't assault well enough no man's land that kind of plagued us with the White Dwarf codex. Glancing through the codex, I have no more confidence against Eldar than I did before.

Fair enough! I'm almost worried about the opposite problem with assault; hitting too hard and plowing right through softer units, only to be shot to pieces the next turn!

I feel like making us competitive against Eldar isn't really the solution, as Eldar are ridiculously OP at the moment; rather, Eldar need to get brought down to a more reasonable power level. I think the continuous "one upping" that used to happen is exactly what GW is currently trying to roll back. From here on out, I think we can expect most codices to seem pretty "meh" at first glance.

I'm holding out that this all turns out to be a good thing in the long run.

 BrokenRecord wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
To be fair, the BA were quite good in shoot outs in 5th. 6th gutted nearly all of our 5th ed tricks, and so I kind of didn't know what to expect.

I suspect we will find ourselves stranded in the can't shoot well enough, but can't assault well enough no man's land that kind of plagued us with the White Dwarf codex. Glancing through the codex, I have no more confidence against Eldar than I did before.

Fair enough! I'm almost worried about the opposite problem with assault; hitting too hard and plowing right through softer units, only to be shot to pieces the next turn!

I feel like making us competitive against Eldar isn't really the solution, as Eldar are ridiculously OP at the moment; rather, Eldar need to get brought down to a more reasonable power level. I think the continuous "one upping" that used to happen is exactly what GW is currently trying to roll back. From here on out, I think we can expect most codices to seem pretty "meh" at first glance.

I'm holding out that this all turns out to be a good thing in the long run.

Well, that explains why no one switched in my area off Eldar despite 7th ed dropping.

If I were trying to play a traditional BA assault style list, I would still be very concerned about being cut to pieces by shooting before I even arrive. The whole hitting too hard thing and then being stranded out of HtH is a 1st world problem compared to not getting there. It doesn't have to be Eldar, either. I don't know what this codex is giving me against grav bikers/grav star, either.

 Arschbombe wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

But moving a Troop-only unit to Fast Attack is different and I don't think anyone expected that.

People may not have expected it, but they certainly feared it. They knew, deep down, that it was an anomaly. Nobody else gets jump infantry as troops. They're elites or fast attack. Scourges, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Sky Claws, Vanilla Assault Marines, Stormboyz etc.

I wouldn't be surprised by a Formation similar in nature to Skyblight Swarm (Tyranids) that allows the Assault Marines to be Objective Secured, the way the Gargoyles are. This would give back the Assault Marine "Troop Feel", and by adding in the typical FOC tax that comes with Formations, GW get's to balance it out against other armies.

rpricew wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised by a Formation similar in nature to Skyblight Swarm (Tyranids) that allows the Assault Marines to be Objective Secured, the way the Gargoyles are. This would give back the Assault Marine "Troop Feel", and by adding in the typical FOC tax that comes with Formations, GW get's to balance it out against other armies.

This is basically what I'm holding out hope for. My 3 main armies have all gotten updates this year (Orks, GK, BA) and each one has been more disappointing that the last. I'm really trying to be patient waiting for a supllement, formations, or detachments that can fix what I've heard so far.

The Space Marine codex isn't actually very good outside of bike armies and grav centurions.

Martel732 wrote:
If I were trying to play a traditional BA assault style list, I would still be very concerned about being cut to pieces by shooting before I even arrive. The whole hitting too hard thing and then being stranded out of HtH is a 1st world problem compared to not getting there.

Failing a charge sucks pretty hard, we've all agreed with that since 6th dropped. It also makes it harder to pull back punches in assault. I think this was someone's earlier point. We'll walk through lightly armored units and get shot to death the following turn or get owned by dedicated assault units. Both death company and sanguinary guard can't stand toe to toe with anything that has an invuln.

 th3maninblak wrote:


Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

I'm more upset by the moving of 60% of the troops choices. It literally breaks my army and I'll have to double force-org to even play it similar to what it was before.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

I'm more upset by the moving of 60% of the troops choices. It literally breaks my army and I'll have to double force-org to even play it similar to what it was before.

All part of GW's plan, I'm sure.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

I'm more upset by the moving of 60% of the troops choices. It literally breaks my army and I'll have to double force-org to even play it similar to what it was before.

Sounds like a whole lot of suck but it not even remotely surprising.

I think the key to all this is to never buy more than 2 of anything specific besides DT. (Unless you are going for an actual collection (ie: a full company)

Im fine with more SM codexes moving into middle of the road as well. i dont think anyone really excpected another WS analog.

It's still a bit disappointing to get a codex strictly worse than vanilla and SW.

twinner wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Landspeeder Storm an option for Scouts?

It is not.

NoooOoooooOooooo!!!11!1111One!!! I play Dark Angels and was thinking about starting a detachment of Blood Angels....and really love the idea of the Landspeeder Storm (and the model!) Why do these Codex chapters not have access to this STC design!?!?!? I don't want to have to take a frackin' 3rd detachment to get this model on the table...and since the troop tax is a thing again, I really would have liked the ability to throw some scouts into one of these. I am genuinely upset

I think instead of making us get into assault more reliably, GW made us hit harder than any other assault force in the game. That way even if 75% of a squad is killed going across the table, the remaining 1/4 is going to kill the first squad it touches, regardless of what it is.

I think its fun that way. Your opponent gets the thrill of blowing marines off the table, and you get the thrill of your last 3 death company out of a 10 man squad wiping an entire unit.

We have so many rules making us awesome in close combat now. Psychic powers that boost initiative or attacks (or both), or give us a 5++, furious charge, +1 init, rage, abundant power weapons. Its really awesome.

Do tacticals have an option to purchase a CCW like GH can?

 th3maninblak wrote:
I think instead of making us get into assault more reliably, GW made us hit harder than any other assault force in the game. That way even if 75% of a squad is killed going across the table, the remaining 1/4 is going to kill the first squad it touches, regardless of what it is.

I think its fun that way. Your opponent gets the thrill of blowing marines off the table, and you get the thrill of your last 3 death company out of a 10 man squad wiping an entire unit.

We have so many rules making us awesome in close combat now. Psychic powers that boost initiative or attacks (or both), or give us a 5++, furious charge, +1 init, rage, abundant power weapons. Its really awesome.

I don't think that's going to work as well as you think it is. The BA aren't THAT good in HtH, and anti-meq tech is everywhere in 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Do tacticals have an option to purchase a CCW like GH can?

I didn't see it. I don't own it yet though. I'm on the fence. So SW still kinda LOL at us.

Also, is Seth's save a 2+ or 3+?

 th3maninblak wrote:
So let me get this straight, he has a sick warlord trait, with the possibility of 2, a melta gun in pistol form, eternal warrior, a str6 ap2 at initiative weapon, artificer armor, a 6 inch fear bubble, a jump pack... am i missing anything?

For 2.20 thunderfire cannons. Holy crap.

Doesn't he get furious charge as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarsNZ wrote:
Nobody is rubbing anyone's faces in anything.

The internet is awash with BA tears that their troops section has been bought in line with the rest of the game.

Is that we should tell the SM bike squads?

Martel732 wrote:
It's still a bit disappointing to get a codex strictly worse than vanilla and SW.

I have not see the BA codex, but I would doubt that it is worse than SW.

oz of the north wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's still a bit disappointing to get a codex strictly worse than vanilla and SW.

I have not see the BA codex, but I would doubt that it is worse than SW.

I HAVE seen the SW codex, and the BA codex for about 20 min. Between that, and the summary threads, I'd say the SW are solidly better. The difference is not significant, perhaps, when put against power lists, but it is relevant in BA vs SW. It's now a match up BA have been losing for over a decade. Against many foes though, BA and SW both get shot to death equally well.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

twinner wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Are furioso dreadnoughts till able to keep making attacks if they successfully wound in close combat?

Where there any buffs to furioso dreadnoughts?

It got nerfed, no more additional attacks. Point stayed the same, but upgrades cost more.

Well that certainly sucks, it was a fun dreadnought to run, but it just wasn't very good last codex and if it is even worse now I think I will probably skip the new codex after seeing the lackluster update it got.

The Blood Talons are AP2 now though, so they can take on some 2+armour and get a bonus on the vehicle damage table. They are also S10 as well so they can have a good go at Land Raiders. Their role has just changed a bit really.

I like the new blood talons better. honestly. I never used the old ones.

Hey guys these are my last answers for this Codex. Thanks for all the questions!

More Dakka wrote:DOH! Can Sang Guard take Storm Shields?

No

lawlskees wrote:Do space marine tactical sergeants get artificer armor option?

No

StarHunter25 wrote:Do tacticals have an option to purchase a CCW like GH can?

Not that I can see.

StarHunter25 wrote:Also, is Seth's save a 2+ or 3+?

3+/4++

Thank you for the thread. It breaks my heart but I'm done with BA. Silver lining, you did save me $50. Ravenguard here I come.

Guys... So much whine, not a single game played. Many have brought up that question and I ask it again. Did you really expect to be as good as the supercheese lists from eldar? Can't you see, what problems that would cause? Please sit back and think about it. Which armies do you see with a clear advantage against this new codex? And please don't be offended, but you can't grasp a whole new codex within minutes.

Thank you twinner for this thread!

rhavien wrote:
Guys... So much whine, not a single game played. Many have brought up that question and I ask it again. Did you really expect to be as good as the supercheese lists from eldar? Can't you see, what problems that would cause? Please sit back and think about it. Which armies do you see with a clear advantage against this new codex? And please don't be offended, but you can't grasp a whole new codex within minutes.

Thank you twinner for this thread!

Cannot exalt enough

 IHateNids wrote:

rhavien wrote:
Guys... So much whine, not a single game played. Many have brought up that question and I ask it again. Did you really expect to be as good as the supercheese lists from eldar? Can't you see, what problems that would cause? Please sit back and think about it. Which armies do you see with a clear advantage against this new codex? And please don't be offended, but you can't grasp a whole new codex within minutes.

Thank you twinner for this thread!

Cannot exalt enough

srsly

Actually, this one is so similar to C:SM, that yeah, I kinda can. That and I have been played BA a long, long time. These BA are just good enough to give hope, but not good enough to close the deal against strong lists.

Once more, thanks to the OP for all this information!

I have to say I am very keen to get gaming with this new codex, it looks very nicely composed.

And the prophet has returned

In all seriousness. Blood Angel players are now mostly happy that our stuff is no longer overpriced crab, but I think that Martel is right.
Simple point reductions can't change the fact that we are an assault army in an era of gunlines.

Still, I see more hope for Blood Angels now.
The Death Company might actually work with reduced JP cost. 23ppm is a lot for a marine, but they are still a fast and deadly unit with FnP.
And as the ASM and Tacticals are cheaper now, we get more of the good stuff on the table, like fast Predators, decent Dreads and able Psykers.

Compared to the regular Space Marines we are still fighting uphill because of the lack of massed Bikes (altough this is more doable now I suppose) and Grav-stars.
Nontheless, we are no longer fighting with one hand behind our back. We now have more firepower to back up our advancement of assault troops and I suspect that Blood Angels will be seen more even in the tournament play (they can by no means be seen less...).

Hmm just realized.

12" jump pack move.
12" Psychic wing jump (IIRC)

gets a unit of Assault marines with a bunch of melta guns + double infernus pistols.
Sounds outright scary for tanks

Oh and 12" more inchs for the telekensis one too for more fun much safer than GOI without dante.

1. Drop down on a safe distance.
2. do the psychic fly.
3. kill with Melta.
4. ????
5. profit.

So dante is awesome, mephy is great and an IC now, everything got cheaper, we got our psychic powers back and better than ever, we got old furious charge back, our relics are pretty good, the warlord traits are sweet, and people are STILL complaining.

Way to go internet. Way to go.

 soomemafia wrote:
1. Drop down on a safe distance.
2. do the psychic fly.
3. kill with Melta.
4. ????
5. profit.

Well That would be T2.

Also then again Drop pods..... which might be awesome with BA assault marines.

(it was two meltas and two melta pistols right?). what would the price be compared to sternguard or command squad?

Now that most of the information about the codex is in my feeling are a little less heated and have mainly turned to apathy, I've gone from really excited to not really caring which I'm pretty sad about.

I can see that there will be many reasonably competitive options in the codex with alot of units being better than before just due to price drops but that was the bare minimum that we could have expected from a new codex and shouldn't be something to celebrate.

The codex just doesn't seem to have a distinct playstyle of its own anymore, I have 9 different 40K armies with bloodangels being my first and favourite but they have just had most of their gameplay flavour dialed down so we're left with a codex very similar to the vanilla book but with far less varied options and playstyles.

I write the following with the full understanding that I could (perhaps should) play unbound but I and many others feel that the game really falls apart under that system and prefer to use detachments, also many issues might be fixed with the forthcoming £50 campaign book which I again feel is not an acceptable solution.

With assault marines going to fast attack we're forced to play with tactical marines or scouts which impose a certain style of play. It might be perfectly fluffy and usable but it forces the army in a certain direction that many do not what to go in.

Other than assault marines our fast attack section looks pretty uninteresting, if I wanted bikes I'll use white scars or ravenwing the rest is just transports and pretty poor landspeeders. To me a BA force shopuld be all about the fast attack and this is the section that disappoints me the most. We were crying out for a flyer here, hopefully a cool new model or the stormtalon which would have been a good fit but at the very least put the stormraven here. Instead we have the least interesting and varied FA section of all the marines book which just seems very poorly thought out.

With the change of baal preds to heavy support and their lose of scout they have just become a weapon swap predator and no longer allow for a multiple heavy tank build, again just less play options.

Priests used to be able to be fielded in numbers up to 9 with each individual model affecting multiple units. Now we can use our entire HQ section to give FNP to 2 units. This hugely diminishes the survivability of all our infantry units. The preist are still good but most people seem to be salivating about taking them as allies to bolster their boring deathstar builds.

Earlier in the thread someone posted that they prefer the new blood claws to the old ones, how? Whilst some may think the old ones may have been a little powerful they were at least a different option, the new one cost 10pts to make you have a slightly greater chance of causing a wound. They don't change the roll of the dreadnaught using them in the slightest and thus again are removing options and interest. This is not a good thing, tacking on a nearly useless special rule to a weapon is very lazy game design. If we were to swap shred for rampage we would have had a useful upgrade that would be worth buying and changes the roll of the unit whilst keeping the flavor of the weapon but that was to big a leap.

Dante the saviour! He's awesome no denying it, but having a character (or any model - hello waveserpent) be an auto include in an army is again just reducing options.

I understand many people saying the BA are a codex chapter thus should be very similar to a standard codex chapter, fine. If that's how they are changing the codex then why not include things like the stormtalon and landspeeder storm? Both units fill holes in the codex and fit the perceived bloodangels playstyle.

I will no doubt play many games with the new codex and as always my concerns will likely fade (as they always do) but I really feel this is a poorly implemented codex re-design that whilst certainly playable is alot less diverse and interesting than it was or could/should have been.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This codex seems, to a first approximation, to be medicore at best. The assault marines to FA thing isn't as important as an overall meh feeling to the whole thing. If tactical marines weren't one of the worst things in the game, this change would be fine with me, actually.

Another codex to be mowed down by the elite codices. I don't hate it, but I really don't like it either. It's better than the old 5th codex, but that's a really, really low bar.

Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

Here are some other bad things for you then:

Sanguinor is still garbage.
Tycho is a joke in two forms.
Seth is still useless.
Baal Predator nerfed.
DC Dread nerfed.
Furioso nerfed.
Reclusiarch gone (which becomes a serious issue if you want to use relic vehicles from FW).
No new units from the SM book. Not even Storms for the Scouts.
Dante nerfed (better in some areas, sure, but overall a nerf, IMO).
Stormraven nerfed (if only slightly).
Razorbacks, Sternguard combis, Attack bikes more expensive.
Assault Marines are not only FA, but can only take Rhinos and Drop Pods.
Terminators (both kinds) are still garbage, Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are still decidedly unimpressive, no ICs left in the Elites section leading to a clogged HQ section.

It does have some bright spots, like Mephiston, Finkin' Cap, the psychic powers, and, I guess, heavy flamers in Tac Squads (I feel like I'm really reaching here...).

Overall, I don't really see the point of the book. It's like SM but with some other units that just aren't very impressive, and a ton of actually good units and options missing.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

I feel that Dante just continues the tradition of codex: trap unit. Dante is extremely expensive, and despite all the buffs, I'm not sure he is cost effective.

Shooting tanks with melta was never a problem for the old codex. Surviving fire from Necron/GK/IG/Eldar/Tau was. I don't see how that has changed at all, really.

Martel732 wrote:
I feel that Dante just continues the tradition of codex: trap unit. Dante is extremely expensive, and despite all the buffs, I'm not sure he is cost effective.

Shooting tanks with melta was never a problem for the old codex. Surviving fire from Necron/GK/IG/Eldar/Tau was. I don't see how that has changed at all, really.

It sounds a whole lot more like a necron GK IG Eldar TAU problem then a C:BA issue considering its the same issue vanilla has in any case.

There is nothing short of a my unit is unkillalbe USR that will fix those codexes...... and gotta remember that this is a game of war. you are expected to have to lose some models in on coming fire.

I'm not asking for no casualties. I'm asking for something less than 80%.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not asking for no casualties. I'm asking for something less than 80%.

Then your doing something wrong
or playing a table with no cover
or are the luckiest man in the world in opposite land.

Cover doesn't help. I die to AP 6 wound spam. Part of the cost of a marine is not needing cover to be effective. High wound output armies completely negate that advantage by brute forcing through the 3+ save.

I've always fielded Dante and Sanguinary Guard (5th ed till now that is) so those items are major scores for me in the new book.

I expect that no matter what happens people will complain; because history has proven that true with every GW release; and that has been my experience since RT. My first army was Flesh Eaters (Rogue Trader book), then Blood Angels with the first codex/list btw.

Technically some units saw "nerfs" that more or less just put them in line with the times (other codex)... the only real CONS I've seen are the over-clogging of Elite and HQ; but in 7th edition this isn't so much an issue.

Overwhelmingly I'd say the changes look positive however, and I'm super excited to get started.

Martel732 wrote:
Cover doesn't help. I die to AP 6 wound spam.

Then yeah you must be the most unlucky man in the world as you only have a 2/6 chance of dieing from that.

Less if you have FNP going.

(bleh for power armor marines) im herping atm.

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not asking for no casualties. I'm asking for something less than 80%.

Then your doing something wrong
or playing a table with no cover
or are the luckiest man in the world in opposite land.

Or he's playing against Eldar.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Cover doesn't help. I die to AP 6 wound spam.

Then yeah you must be the most unlucky man in the world as you only have a 2/6 chance of dieing from that.

Less if you have FNP going.

2/6 * 70 wounds = 20+ dead marines a turn. It's not luck.It's math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not asking for no casualties. I'm asking for something less than 80%.

Then your doing something wrong
or playing a table with no cover
or are the luckiest man in the world in opposite land.

Or he's playing against Eldar.

Last 5 games in a row. Then I quit for several months. Played 3 more Eldar in a row when I came back.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not asking for no casualties. I'm asking for something less than 80%.

Then your doing something wrong
or playing a table with no cover
or are the luckiest man in the world in opposite land.

Or he's playing against Eldar.

Refer to option 3 then

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I feel that Dante just continues the tradition of codex: trap unit. Dante is extremely expensive, and despite all the buffs, I'm not sure he is cost effective.

Shooting tanks with melta was never a problem for the old codex. Surviving fire from Necron/GK/IG/Eldar/Tau was. I don't see how that has changed at all, really.

It sounds a whole lot more like a necron GK IG Eldar TAU problem then a C:BA issue considering its the same issue vanilla has in any case.

There is nothing short of a my unit is unkillalbe USR that will fix those codexes...... and gotta remember that this is a game of war. you are expected to have to lose some models in on coming fire.

I kind of understand BA players not liking the new codex. All BA lists were made around assault marines in razorbacks and priests handing out fnP .
Now those no longer exist outside of unbound. It kind of sucks when someone with a 1500army sees that he now has to buy a whole new army. Because if the new one isn't better then the best army right now, one may as well buy the best one. Same money spend and better return.

Martel732 wrote:




2/6 * 70 wounds = 20+ dead marines a turn. It's not luck.It's math.

against 1 unit

where is the rest of your army?

 Paradigm wrote:

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

I'm not saying its bad at all. I'm saying there's not enough good. There are no units or schemes to hang our hat on in this book. DC are just victims like they are now. Cheaper victims, but still victims.



Less if you have FNP going.

Makumba wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I feel that Dante just continues the tradition of codex: trap unit. Dante is extremely expensive, and despite all the buffs, I'm not sure he is cost effective.

Shooting tanks with melta was never a problem for the old codex. Surviving fire from Necron/GK/IG/Eldar/Tau was. I don't see how that has changed at all, really.

It sounds a whole lot more like a necron GK IG Eldar TAU problem then a C:BA issue considering its the same issue vanilla has in any case.

There is nothing short of a my unit is unkillalbe USR that will fix those codexes...... and gotta remember that this is a game of war. you are expected to have to lose some models in on coming fire.

I kind of understand BA players not liking the new codex. All BA lists were made around assault marines in razorbacks and priests handing out fnP .
Now those no longer exist outside of unbound. It kind of sucks when someone with a 1500army sees that he now has to buy a whole new army. Because if the new one isn't better then the best army right now, one may as well buy the best one. Same money spend and better return.

Woa dude ...maybe all of "Goatboy's BOLS spammer lists" were made of assault marines in razorbacks, or at the kiddie table of some uber-stomp tournaments, but that is certainly not "the build" that defines Blood Angels. If you ran a Mephiston cheese spammer list, I'm kinda glad you'll be disappointed with this book, but overall I think "BA players" ARE liking the book - but the fact remains, none of us are actually using it yet.

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

I'm not saying its bad at all. I'm saying there's not enough good. There are no units or schemes to hang our hat on in this book. DC are just victims like they are now. Cheaper victims, but still victims.

]

Genuine question: do you think that is the fault of this codex, or of lingering imbalance from the anomalous Eldar book? You say your last games have all been against Eldar, so I'm wondering if that's tinting your opinion. Anyone with the ability to think can recognise that Eldar are easily a cut above the rest of the books in terms of sheer power, but I think the new BA book would shape up well against any other codex.

To be frank, I'd rather have a book that can fight on a level field with all bar one book than another one on level of Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:


Last 5 games in a row. Then I quit for several months. Played 3 more Eldar in a row when I came back.

Yeah, I thought I recognized that casualty rate from every time my Red Scorpions gets a go against Eldar. Perhaps that's the reason I've been playing IG so much lately. Our armor gaks on the Wave Kelly Shield.

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

I'm not saying its bad at all. I'm saying there's not enough good. There are no units or schemes to hang our hat on in this book. DC are just victims like they are now. Cheaper victims, but still victims.

]

Genuine question: do you think that is the fault of this codex, or of lingering imbalance from the anomalous Eldar book? You say your last games have all been against Eldar, so I'm wondering if that's tinting your opinion. Anyone with the ability to think can recognise that Eldar are easily a cut above the rest of the books in terms of sheer power, but I think the new BA book would shape up well against any other codex.

To be frank, I'd rather have a book that can fight on a level field with all bar one book than another one on level of Eldar.

Thank you for this statement.

Right now we are actually the best at what we do:, which is fight. Wolves cant out fight us. Nids can't. DE or eldar can't. Daemons cant (except princes and greater daemons). Marines can't.

I for one am excited to play with this new book. We have been in the dark for so long that actually having a decently strong book will be really nice.

 Thud wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This codex seems, to a first approximation, to be medicore at best. The assault marines to FA thing isn't as important as an overall meh feeling to the whole thing. If tactical marines weren't one of the worst things in the game, this change would be fine with me, actually.

Another codex to be mowed down by the elite codices. I don't hate it, but I really don't like it either. It's better than the old 5th codex, but that's a really, really low bar.

Really? Because the reaction from most people who already have it in hand is that its pretty awesome. Assault marines no longer being troops is LITERALLY the only bad thing about it.

Here are some other bad things for you then:

Sanguinor is still garbage.
Tycho is a joke in two forms.
Seth is still useless.
Baal Predator nerfed.
DC Dread nerfed.
Furioso nerfed.
Reclusiarch gone (which becomes a serious issue if you want to use relic vehicles from FW).
No new units from the SM book. Not even Storms for the Scouts.
Dante nerfed (better in some areas, sure, but overall a nerf, IMO).
Stormraven nerfed (if only slightly).
Razorbacks, Sternguard combis, Attack bikes more expensive.
Assault Marines are not only FA, but can only take Rhinos and Drop Pods.
Terminators (both kinds) are still garbage, Sanguinary Guard and Death Company are still decidedly unimpressive, no ICs left in the Elites section leading to a clogged HQ section.

It does have some bright spots, like Mephiston, Finkin' Cap, the psychic powers, and, I guess, heavy flamers in Tac Squads (I feel like I'm really reaching here...).

Overall, I don't really see the point of the book. It's like SM but with some other units that just aren't very impressive, and a ton of actually good units and options missing.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

Forgot the 2 Sang Priest cap(if you want one as your hod damned warlord). I totally agree with you though. Very, very little good with heaps of negative.

* PS: For thosr of you saying "go unbound brah", you know exactly how that silly bs would fly at tournaments or even an LGS. It wouldn't. If the Dex forces the player to go unbound to play a very simple, very reasonable, fluffy/themed list, its a gakky codex. Plain and simple.

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent so maybe this is no longer best place for this, but what the heck.

I had the codex in my hands for a little bit this evening and I noticed something that I haven't seen mentioned here or in the other threads. The CAD in the codex has a compulsory elite slot. People seem to know that BA get 4 elites to play with, but I don't think everyone was aware that one of them is mandatory. It's a minor point given how crowded the elite section is, but maybe there's someone out there wanting to run something without elites.

The other thing I noticed was no mention of the Lamenters is the section for the successors. The new chapter, the Carmine Blades, seems to have taken their spot. The Carmine Blades were thought to be Ultramarine successors until one day Astorath showed up because he was drawn to their lost marines. I think that's the tidiest retcon I've seen yet.

It was mentioned in the rumors page once some one got the book.

If you dont want the elite slot just play as a regular cad and get obsec instead.

Really no lamenters? thats a bloody shame

There might be something in the fluff text about them (maybe killing them off), but I didn't have time to read the whole thing. I just noticed that whereas the other chapters each got a nice page and a blurb, there wasn't one for the Lamenters.

While I still don't like that Death Company are Elites not Troops, I will make do. I will still run Cassor the Damned for one of my Troops choices. As of right now I am going to have the following for my BA army until I get more.

Chaplain with Jump Pack
Sanguinary Priest
5X Sanguinary Guard (3x Sword Glaives, 2x Axe Glaives)
10x Death Company (2x PF, 1x TH, 2x Inferno Pistol)
Tactical Squad (2x Hand Flamer, Flamer, HF) in a Rhino
Cassor the Damned in a Drop Pod
TriLas Predator
Baal Pred
Dante

 WisdomLS wrote:
With assault marines going to fast attack we're forced to play with tactical marines...

"Fortunately" GW just brought out a brand new tactical marines box for BA (only £26), coincidence?

 Paradigm wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

I'm not saying its bad at all. I'm saying there's not enough good. There are no units or schemes to hang our hat on in this book. DC are just victims like they are now. Cheaper victims, but still victims.

]

Genuine question: do you think that is the fault of this codex, or of lingering imbalance from the anomalous Eldar book? You say your last games have all been against Eldar, so I'm wondering if that's tinting your opinion. Anyone with the ability to think can recognise that Eldar are easily a cut above the rest of the books in terms of sheer power, but I think the new BA book would shape up well against any other codex.

To be frank, I'd rather have a book that can fight on a level field with all bar one book than another one on level of Eldar.

I think a good Tau list, vanilla marine list, Necron list, or SW list can easily handle what this book can field. Every game, the DC will be mercilessly slaughtered with superior firepower unless they are put in an expensive box called a Land Raider. Nothing has changed here really except the price of DC jump packs. Once the DC are removed, the rest of the units in the book are meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I feel that Dante just continues the tradition of codex: trap unit. Dante is extremely expensive, and despite all the buffs, I'm not sure he is cost effective.

Shooting tanks with melta was never a problem for the old codex. Surviving fire from Necron/GK/IG/Eldar/Tau was. I don't see how that has changed at all, really.

It sounds a whole lot more like a necron GK IG Eldar TAU problem then a C:BA issue considering its the same issue vanilla has in any case.

There is nothing short of a my unit is unkillalbe USR that will fix those codexes...... and gotta remember that this is a game of war. you are expected to have to lose some models in on coming fire.

I kind of understand BA players not liking the new codex. All BA lists were made around assault marines in razorbacks and priests handing out fnP .
Now those no longer exist outside of unbound. It kind of sucks when someone with a 1500army sees that he now has to buy a whole new army. Because if the new one isn't better then the best army right now, one may as well buy the best one. Same money spend and better return.

Woa dude ...maybe all of "Goatboy's BOLS spammer lists" were made of assault marines in razorbacks, or at the kiddie table of some uber-stomp tournaments, but that is certainly not "the build" that defines Blood Angels. If you ran a Mephiston cheese spammer list, I'm kinda glad you'll be disappointed with this book, but overall I think "BA players" ARE liking the book - but the fact remains, none of us are actually using it yet.

There were basically zero viable lists from the 5th ed codex in the 7th ed environment. Does this codex change the math enough to put out viable lists? I'm not sure yet. The amount of casualties I regularly take outside 24" is not encouraging.

I feel like all the comparisons to tau/eldar/necron firepower are not really long for this world.

one of those armies is probably up next, and will most likely wane greatly in power to what it is currently, the other two will follow in short order with the same treatment.

This might have been asked already but what weapon options do DC have? Can they take storm shields for example?

Thanks in advance.

 Mumblez wrote:
This might have been asked already but what weapon options do DC have? Can they take storm shields for example?

Thanks in advance.

any model can swap their pistol for a boltgun for free, or upgrade to a hand flamer, inferno or plasma pistol

can also swap out pistol and/or chainsword for power weapon, power fist or thunder hammer

Mattel732 wrote: There were basically zero viable lists from the 5th ed codex in the 7th ed environment. Does this codex change the math enough to put out viable lists? I'm not sure yet. The amount of casualties I regularly take outside 24" is not encouraging.

Weird I play regularly and found the current/old codex works better now than in the last half of 5th edition. Eldar still usually beats me but it's typically close, and hey Eldar pretty much beats everyone.

Eldar is problematic, even for my crimson fists drop pod list, but tau have NEVER been a problem for my old BA. I honestly dont see whats so scary about them.

Good Tau builds can blast 5th ed BA off the table pretty quickly. Admittedly, if things go wrong, it can get ugly for them. 5th ed BA didn't have enough bodies to absorb all the ignore cover AP 2 S9 blasts.

 Arschbombe wrote:
There might be something in the fluff text about them (maybe killing them off), but I didn't have time to read the whole thing. I just noticed that whereas the other chapters each got a nice page and a blurb, there wasn't one for the Lamenters.

 Desubot wrote:
It was mentioned in the rumors page once some one got the book.

If you dont want the elite slot just play as a regular cad and get obsec instead.

Really no lamenters? thats a bloody shame

Could there be a possible Lamenters supplement incoming?

The problem with this book is the Troop and HQ tax.

The fact that so many units got worse but stayed the same points. Both Dreads, DC on foot, Baals... dear god, Baals!

The fact that FnP only confers to 1 unit.

The fact that Space Marines on foot are not good enough for 14pts to warrant taking en masse.

The fact that the only reason you will take the Troops choices is because you have to.

The fact that all of the inherent chapter tacticesque bonuses are only useful when you are charging into combat and you can't reliably do that with Marines without spending 200-250pts on a box to put them in.

The fact that their nice access to melta is still less efficient than Vanilla and Wolves.

The fact that an army built around Dante, Sanguinary Guard and/or JP Death Company will have not as many other threats to put down on the board to draw fire due to the Troops tax.

It's an underwhelming book that will end up being played in competitive environments only as a detachment/formation taken from the Supplement that will release next week for another £45... Same as the Nids and Wolves.

I saw yet more people in the thread inferring that all BA players were wanting a book that knocks tau and eldar on their backsides.

Blatantly false.

The thing I despise about the codex is how hard it tries to force unbound on you. With the tax-ticals for your required troops, and then the absolutely overflowing HQ and elite section. The detachment should've given more than just one extra elite, possibly an extra hq too.

I like most of the unit upgrades except for:
-the Tychos: downgraded to "never leave shelf" bad
-Mephiston: higher toughness doesn't do anything when you're in a squad of t4's.
-Astorath: still usable, just kinda bland
Blood talons: 10 points to gain shred on already s10 ap2 attacks? Dumb. Possible tie with Tycho as the worst points spent in the book.

And of course, as mentioned above, the 10 tactical guys that no one likes but your mom made you hang out with them anyway. Or you can try to convince your group that unbound isn't so bad, and then promptly get destroyed by Timmy's 8 riptides.

Lastly, the fact that if I want to play a successor chapter, my chapter master is either "Not-Dante" or "Not-Seth." People have been asking for a blank chapter master ever since the last book, and still no love. I'm sure we'll finally get that option next book when we're folded into the "all the marines" codex, since we're now not much different from them than black Templars were.

Niv, everything keeps coming back to the original sin of tactical marines being terrible.

Ally BA to get your Preist and Drop pod for your centurions.

Except a twin assault cannon baal pred with heavy bolter sponsons is 10 points cheaper than the last book.

Sorry to ask again, how does the Baal Strike Force Detachment look like?

Martel732 wrote:
Niv, everything keeps coming back to the original sin of tactical marines being terrible.

Oh I don't disagree. They're pretty dead weight on the table. My problem with them is that they're not fun or interesting on the table either. Jump pack assault marines on the other hand feel tactically engaging, even if they're also lackluster in the current game state.

 Gunzhard wrote:


Woa dude ...maybe all of "Goatboy's BOLS spammer lists" were made of assault marines in razorbacks, or at the kiddie table of some uber-stomp tournaments, but that is certainly not "the build" that defines Blood Angels. If you ran a Mephiston cheese spammer list, I'm kinda glad you'll be disappointed with this book, but overall I think "BA players" ARE liking the book - but the fact remains, none of us are actually using it yet.

First of don't call me a dude. And second why kiddy table, all BA lists from tournaments I have seen run razorbacks with Amarine. Tacs were realy bad, they weren't run and people don't own them. I said nothing about the book being good or bad, because I haven't seen it played. I play IG, and I said it many times before, but that doesn't mean I don't understand people who suddenly lost 50% of their armies. It is not fun to have spent ton of money on stuff you can no longer use and that is more or less what happened here. No CAD or formation or FW list can help, when Amarines can't take razorbacks.

If GW suddenly decided to make vets elite and the only troop choice suddenly became rought rider, I would have the right to be pissed off too.

My flesh tearers are kinda pissed off as well. They are no longer codex compliant. Aside from a few begrudgingly accepting
Devastator duty, they are an all assault force. If tacs could take a CCW it wouldn't be as bad. But no, they give the assault-focused
space marines an assault focused chapter tactic, then force them to field either 2x5 HF RB tac squads, or 2x5 infiltrating scout squads.
Looks like I get to wait for BA's horus heresy rules for my DOA jump pack army.

Are the vehicles still fast?
Do they still have Reclusiarchs?
Is Dante finally playbable?
Do Veterans differ a lot from vanilla ones?

And finally: Is the codex actually good?

Finally, I can run my RG with no lament that they aren't BA!

Is this yet another step along the path to players maturing enough to use unbound for style rather than 8 riptides?

 Tigramans wrote:
Are the vehicles still fast?
Do they still have Reclusiarchs?
Is Dante finally playbable?
Do Veterans differ a lot from vanilla ones?

And finally: Is the codex actually good?

Rhinos, Baals and Razorbacks are. Predators and Vindies can be upgraded.
No.
Playable, yes.
No.

To the last question: read the last two pages.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Tigramans wrote:
Are the vehicles still fast?
Do they still have Reclusiarchs?
Is Dante finally playbable?
Do Veterans differ a lot from vanilla ones?

And finally: Is the codex actually good?

Rhinos, Baals and Razorbacks are. Predators and Vindies can be upgraded.
No.
Playable, yes.
No.

To the last question: read the last two pages.

It seems to be the worst BA codex so far.

O_o really?

You'd take the WD book or the 3E pamphlet over the new one?

 soomemafia wrote:

Rhinos, Baals and Razorbacks are. Predators and Vindies can be upgraded.
No.
Playable, yes.
No.

To the last question: read the last two pages.

Read, and sighed.

Its ok guys the full Jump Pack army is not dead!

The answer? Counts as space wolves :-)

Using the champions of fenris supplement you don't need troops and can instead take elite wolveguard units with jump packs. They have lots of attacks at WS:5 with counter attack and the option of special weapons.
You can take wolf priests who give FNP and Prefered enemy as counts as Sanguinary priests.
Murderfang makes a great standin for a death company dread with his infantry mulching claws.

Plus you can take flyers in every slot to gain that fast, soaring blood angels feel at the low low cost of ....your soul.

Jesus Christ, BA have been nerfed like you wouldn't believe!
Oh well, what are the stats for the new BA tac squads.


Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka.
reds8n

niv-mizzet wrote:
And of course, as mentioned above, the 10 tactical guys that no one likes but your mom made you hang out with them anyway. Or you can try to convince your group that unbound isn't so bad, and then promptly get destroyed by Timmy's 8 riptides.

Some thoughts on Unbound and the new codex:

- When you're only using Unbound to use the same list as you've been using for the last 5 years, are people really going to have a problem with that? If so, I strongly suggest finding another group of players.

- You playing Unbound does not somehow force you to play a stupid 8-tide list (which I'd guess only a handful of people worldwide own anyway); you can still refuse the game on the basis you won't enjoy it, doing so does not reflect on you as a person

- A page back, someone complained that you need to use unbound to build a 'simple, fluffy' list. Well, that's exactly what it's fething for! The whole point of unbound is to be able to build the army you want, exactly how you want it. Building things like classic BA lists is exactly what the designers would have had in mind when they wrote the rules!

I really think the community at large would benefit from accepting Unbound. There's nothing inherently wrong with it as a system, and while you have to rely on the integrity of your fellow gamers not to abuse it, the same could be said of any set of units and restrictions. If you can't trust players not to exploit the system, then frankly I would endeavour to find players that you can.

If you can't trust players not to exploit the system, then frankly I would endeavour to find players that you can.

Simply not an option for a lot of people who live in areas with relatively small circles of 40K players. The fluff-building capabilities of Unbound are precisely the capabilities that permit the 8 Riptide Army... which is just as justifiably "fluffy", only Riptides are simply given superior rules to most every other unit in the game.

 Paradigm wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
And of course, as mentioned above, the 10 tactical guys that no one likes but your mom made you hang out with them anyway. Or you can try to convince your group that unbound isn't so bad, and then promptly get destroyed by Timmy's 8 riptides.

Some thoughts on Unbound and the new codex:

- When you're only using Unbound to use the same list as you've been using for the last 5 years, are people really going to have a problem with that? If so, I strongly suggest finding another group of players.

- You playing Unbound does not somehow force you to play a stupid 8-tide list (which I'd guess only a handful of people worldwide own anyway); you can still refuse the game on the basis you won't enjoy it, doing so does not reflect on you as a person

- A page back, someone complained that you need to use unbound to build a 'simple, fluffy' list. Well, that's exactly what it's fething for! The whole point of unbound is to be able to build the army you want, exactly how you want it. Building things like classic BA lists is exactly what the designers would have had in mind when they wrote the rules!

I really think the community at large would benefit from accepting Unbound. There's nothing inherently wrong with it as a system, and while you have to rely on the integrity of your fellow gamers not to abuse it, the same could be said of any set of units and restrictions. If you can't trust players not to exploit the system, then frankly I would endeavour to find players that you can.

 DarthOvious wrote:


Is that we should tell the SM bike squads?

They burn an HQ to do that. An HQ that you can spend on your psychic-character-dreadnaught.

But yeah it's a terrible codex and you'll email GW about how you've quit the hobby I'm sure. I'm sure they care.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Thud wrote:
.

So, I'll flip the question around. What's good about it? What makes you excited about this book? I've got about 8k points, so I'd love to have my mind changed.

BA Specific units (DC, SangGuard) got much better/cheaper
Tacticals are now very good at close quarters battle, with HF and FC all round
Points drops on pretty much everything
Dante is a legitimate badass now
Can't see a bad unit in the book
New traits, relics and detachment are all pretty awesome

Admittedly, I'm no fan of the priest slot change (others don't bother me) and some SCs being majorly weakened (Tycho) or blanderised (Corbulo, Astorath) but o other than that, I am really liking this book at the moment.

Sanguinary Guard go cheaper, yes, but they're still fairly pricey and crap on their own. And if you start adding characters to support them, it gets expensive quickly. And then they still get shot up. Just like before. DC got cheaper jump packs and scoring. They lost re-rolls to wound from regular Chaplains who used to be Elites. Now, you'll not only need to spend more points on a more expensive character to get that re-roll, but you have to waste one of your HQ slots. And WS4. Sure, you could get it back up to 5, but then your new, cheaper squad is suddenly more expensive than it used to be.

Both units are still usable, they're not Pyrovores or anything, but I would not call them "much better." A lateral move, at best.

Point drops? Aside from special characters, everything's been brought in line with C:SM. Ok. This makes Bikes, Tac Marines, Scout Bikes, Predators etc viable options. But it doesn't make them fantastic or exciting. They're just the same fillers from the vanilla book, and the units that really needed some point drops (Terminators, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts) didn't get them and are still pants. Of course, there are also points increases. Sternguard combis are now more expensive, Attack Bikes are more expensive, Frag Cannons for the Furioso are more expensive...

Dante? Dante is a trap. He's very good at punching certain things. He's also very good at dying to other things. He's also expensive on his own while still needing support. Stick him in pretty much any half-decent unit and you're breaking 400 points at least. He's also worse at everything that doesn't involve punching people. His hat is now more or less useless, he used to get no scatter at all plus a warlord trait, he screwed over opponent ICs, etc. Sure, that last one is an example of one of those abilities that are idiotic, and should be removed from the game, but the fact remains; Dante is worse.

No bad units in the book? I'm gonna let Tycho slide for the sake of the argument, but on the same note, there aren't really any very good units either. Maybe Mephiston. Probably Mephiston. He's got some interesting applications that are not only good, but also cool. We may have different opinions on what constitutes bad units, but I'd definitely argue that Terminators and Dreadnoughts (DC and stock) suck and the Whirlwind isn't exactly awesome. In addition, Baal Predators, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines weren't very good in the old book, and are now either about the same (DC), slightly better but still poor (Sanguinary Guard), or straight up nerfed (Baals and Assault Marines). And then there are Vanguard Veterans which are crappier versions of Death Company.

Traits, detachment and relics. The traits suck. Let's be honest here. Dante's is fine, but only because you know he's coming with it. If you go non-unique Warlord, and you're picking traits based on what's good, you're taking the Red Finkin' Cap and double strategic every time. The relics are ok. There are some cool ones, but nothing amazing, and some of them are quite limiting in their use. An example is the aforementioned Red Finkin' Cap (I can't for the life of me remember its actual name); you'll need BA to be your primary, you'll need a non-SC to be your warlord, and you'd rather not take the detachment so you get two rolls with re-rolls to get max advantage of the strategic table. That gets pretty tricky if you also want a Warlord that isn't fairly weak and close to the action. As for the detachment, I'm unimpressed. The lack of I5 wasn't what made BAs crap in 6th and 7th, and without having fixed all the other problems with an assaulty Marine army, it's not suddenly going to make BAs super awesome. They still get shot to bits and as an aggressive army without obsec they will struggle with actually winning games.


So, what does it leave you? A Space Marine army missing a lot of the actual good units, instead having a couple of special punchy units, and, well, not a lot else.




For those of you happy with the codex, can you make a list matching the following criteria?

- 1500 points, battle forged.
- You can use allies, but the BA part should at least be close to 2/3 of the list.
- Not just a worse version of a SM list.
- Not garbage that will just get blown off the table by any reasonably good list (you don't need to dominate WS spam, just have an honest chance against good armies).

The Vanilla Marine captain/CM on a bike to unlock Bikes as troops is in no way a tax because they all do wonderful things. They are either very good in combat with the Eternal Shield and a Fist/Hammer, or they are Khan who makes bikes even better with Scout.

The BA HQs have little synergy with their units. Aside from the Priest who buffs Sanguinary Guard and makes DC hit a bit better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and proof GW don't know what they are doing

For 85pts you get a Razorback with T/L Assault Cannon AV11 on the front, Fast vehicle, can get Ob Sec, transports up to 6 models.

For 115pts you get a Baal pred that is AV13 on the front, Fast vehicle, never Ob Sec, doesn't have any transport capacity. And NO LONGER HAS SCOUT.

Why would you buy a Baal? Ever.