As part of their continual consolidation business operations for Asmodee (headquartered in Montreal), Days of Wonder, and Fantasy Flight Games will be consolidated at Fantasy Flight’s headquarters in Roseville, Minnesota
they're pulling distribution from a number of the Fantasy Flight distributor roster (gone are Aladdin Distributors, E-Figures Miniatures Distribution, Golden Distribution, and Mad Al Distributors) to leave only ACD Distribution, Alliance Game Distributors, GTS Distribution, PHD Distribution, and Southern Hobby Supply. In addition to selling through five distributors, Asmodee North America will also sell directly to retailers. Canadian distribution will be unaffected by the changes.
however here's the kicker New sales policies for specialty retailers will take effect on April 1. Those policies will restrict sales by game stores to “consumer transactions through retailers’ physical retail locations” and at cons. Online sales and mail order will be prohibited with exceptions granted for online retailers that “contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation,” the company said. Those sales will take place under separate terms of sale from the Specialty Retail terms.
So it looks like the days of picking up xwing and similar for big discounts online are gone
Edit: As well as the above news release, other folk involved in the distribution industries have said the main aim of these changes is to lock down discounted online sales, so more stores can be encouraged to stock without having the competition or push to cut prices)
So I order my X Wing from my nearest stockist, but because they're over an hour away, and they have a low free shipping threshold, I normally order online.
Now I'm going to either have to make the drive, or employ some other method of ordering which is still essentially ordering online but less convenient or more time consuming for both parties?
the article talks mainly about NA, and the other folk I've heard from are American too, so it might be,
but since they are merging the two businesses properly now it could be worldwide
I'm not certain from the info I've got (certainly the loss of e-figs and golden will hurt as I know a few EU based suppliers found it easier to get stuff from them than other FFG distributors)
I think this has been an unpopular move with other companies in the past, but there really is something to the idea that game stores market the product, and treating them differently from an online retailer isn't out of line.
The real question is if this is intended to help the FLGS, or just funnel sales to the manufacturer website
They don't have to. An individual selling on ebay can't get stock at the retail store discount, so they can't sell at a significant discount and still make a profit.
I can sort of understand the wish to only have web sales from physical stores as they support the games and provide venues, tournies and the like. In an ideal world I'm sure that is what all games companies would want.
The problem actually doing this is that you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the internet is not going away so whatever they do is really never going to be effective long term, it mainly ends up annoying customers.
NoggintheNog wrote: The problem actually doing this is that you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the internet is not going away so whatever they do is really never going to be effective long term, it mainly ends up annoying customers.
How can it not be effective long term? The publisher has full control of who they sell to and at what prices, if they want to remove internet discount sales they can easily do it. And honestly, they might lose a few sales from people who are outraged about losing their discount sellers but I suspect it's a tiny price to pay for keeping their physical store networks intact.
It was a douche move when Gw did it and is now with Asmodee/FFG. It seems when a games company reaches a certain size, the greed blooms uncontrollably. This no more is a real reason than it was with Gw. I guess in a few years we'll see similar follow up moves like cutting out distributors further then direct only xwing ships.
They don't have to. An individual selling on ebay can't get stock at the retail store discount, so they can't sell at a significant discount and still make a profit.
But stores selling on eBay, or more likely, individuals who run companies with a wholesale account, will do just fine.
They don't have to. An individual selling on ebay can't get stock at the retail store discount, so they can't sell at a significant discount and still make a profit.
But stores selling on eBay, or more likely, individuals who run companies with a wholesale account, will do just fine.
Though surely in that case they can just go "Oh, looks like X store is using eBay to sell our products at discount and undercut other sellers against the terms of our contract. I guess they're not getting any more product then"?
Sure, if they're actually going to put the effort in to track down individual names of eBay account holders and cross reference them to people whose businesses have the same name as an account holder and then find some evidence that they're the same person.
All the control is in the account opening procedure. If you're in possession of the requisite things needed to open an account (ie a physical shop) then it is ridiculously easy to dispose of the stock any way you want and not have any sort of record that a supplier would have any sort of right to inspect. Selling them on your own store's website would be a dumb move, but selling them via a separate eBay account and simply putting the money generated back into the business as an anonymous cash sale would be very simple to do.
I can understand it for places like America where there is this wide independent shop network that is an important sales driver, but in other countries which don't have such shops, like the UK, it's effectively like asking your customers to suddenly eat a large price rise for no benefit.
Azreal13 wrote: Selling them on your own store's website would be a dumb move, but selling them via a separate eBay account and simply putting the money generated back into the business as an anonymous cash sale would be very simple to do.
And also a rather stupid move. Is picking up a few sales on ebay really worth the risk of getting blacklisted by FFG and losing your access to inventory from a major (and very popular) publisher? Because that's the situation a game store is going to be in if FFG does investigate and catch them. And we've seen from GW's similar policies that there aren't too many people willing to blatantly violate the rules.
YouKnowsIt wrote: I can understand it for places like America where there is this wide independent shop network that is an important sales driver, but in other countries which don't have such shops, like the UK, it's effectively like asking your customers to suddenly eat a large price rise for no benefit.
I'm yet to read anything that suggests this affects the rest of the world. The source article only talks about US distributors, and states that Canada won't be affected - which leads me to conclude that the ROW most likely won't be either.
warboss wrote: It was a douche move when Gw did it and is now with Asmodee/FFG. It seems when a games company reaches a certain size, the greed blooms uncontrollably. This no more is a real reason than it was with Gw. I guess in a few years we'll see similar follow up moves like cutting out distributors further then direct only xwing ships.
It has nothing at all to do with greed, especially in this case. Remember that, unlike GW, FFG does not sell directly to customers*. They're selling their products at the same price whether it's an online discount seller or a physical retail store buying them. The actual reason for this policy is that FFG recognizes the importance of physical stores in marketing and supporting their products. An online discount store is cheaper, but doesn't host tournaments, persuade new customers to buy stuff, put up a rack of games in a prominent location, etc. And if the online discount stores are free to undercut the people who are doing all the promotion and support those stores have much less incentive to stock FFG products. The real greed here is the customers who care more about saving 10% today than having a game to play in the future.
*Technically you can buy directly from FFG if you have to, but hardly anyone does.
Seems like a fine idea to me. If 20 online-only stores go out of business to save 1 brick and mortar gaming store.. so be it. The hobby needs physical stores and does not really need online only stores.
Azreal13 wrote: Selling them on your own store's website would be a dumb move, but selling them via a separate eBay account and simply putting the money generated back into the business as an anonymous cash sale would be very simple to do.
And also a rather stupid move. Is picking up a few sales on ebay really worth the risk of getting blacklisted by FFG and losing your access to inventory from a major (and very popular) publisher? Because that's the situation a game store is going to be in if FFG does investigate and catch them. And we've seen from GW's similar policies that there aren't too many people willing to blatantly violate the rules.
That's impossible to say, as if they're being sensible about it then there's no way you'd know.
I hope this is solely aimed at removing non-physical stores as GW's was, and we should hopefully see stores with both online and physical presences continue as before.
Kirasu wrote: Seems like a fine idea to me. If 20 online-only stores go out of business to save 1 brick and mortar gaming store.. so be it. The hobby needs physical stores and does not really need online only stores.
Physical stores are useless to those of us without easy access to them.
The hobby doesn't need physical stores. It needs easy access to product, and encouragment for gaming communities to grow. Unfriendly policies like this provide the exact opposite of that.
Azreal13 wrote: Selling them on your own store's website would be a dumb move, but selling them via a separate eBay account and simply putting the money generated back into the business as an anonymous cash sale would be very simple to do.
And also a rather stupid move. Is picking up a few sales on ebay really worth the risk of getting blacklisted by FFG and losing your access to inventory from a major (and very popular) publisher? .
That would depend on how 'few' sales it actually amounted to.
When GW's online embargo went up, there were certainly accounts that kept selling. Whether they were physical stores selling on alt accounts, or online sellers finding 'helpful' suppliers to continue trading is impossible to say, but clearly they were still getting stock from [i]somewhere.
And that's exactly the problem with this sort of policy: It doesn't protect physical stores, it just removes their ability to play in the same sandpit as the online sellers... because they have to play by the rules to keep their accounts, while the online sellers who have found a way around the rules don't.
insaniak wrote: It needs easy access to product, and encouragment for gaming communities to grow.
Which, in the US (where these new policies actually apply), are provided by physical stores. Online stores in the US are parasites leeching off the hard work done by physical stores, and getting rid of them is good for the community.
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insaniak wrote: When GW's online embargo went up, there were certainly accounts that kept selling. Whether they were physical stores selling on alt accounts, or online sellers finding 'helpful' suppliers to continue trading is impossible to say, but clearly they were still getting stock from somewhere.
Sure, but at what percentage of the sales volume compared to before the changes? And at what discount level?
And that's exactly the problem with this sort of policy: It doesn't protect physical stores, it just removes their ability to play in the same sandpit as the online sellers... because they have to play by the rules to keep their accounts, while the online sellers who have found a way around the rules don't.
But physical stores can't compete with online discount stores on price. They have to pay higher rent costs, more employee salaries, etc. The only way for the physical store to compete, outside of depending on people making charity donations out of a sense of obligation to support their local businesses, is to limit the amount of sales volume the online stores can have as much as possible.
warboss wrote: It was a douche move when Gw did it and is now with Asmodee/FFG. It seems when a games company reaches a certain size, the greed blooms uncontrollably. This no more is a real reason than it was with Gw. I guess in a few years we'll see similar follow up moves like cutting out distributors further then direct only xwing ships.
It has nothing at all to do with greed, especially in this case. Remember that, unlike GW, FFG does not sell directly to customers*. They're selling their products at the same price whether it's an online discount seller or a physical retail store buying them. The actual reason for this policy is that FFG recognizes the importance of physical stores in marketing and supporting their products. An online discount store is cheaper, but doesn't host tournaments, persuade new customers to buy stuff, put up a rack of games in a prominent location, etc. And if the online discount stores are free to undercut the people who are doing all the promotion and support those stores have much less incentive to stock FFG products. The real greed here is the customers who care more about saving 10% today than having a game to play in the future.
*Technically you can buy directly from FFG if you have to, but hardly anyone does.
Do they sell direct to consumers? Yes (as you said above with a strange distinction). Do they sell direct to retailers? Yes. Are they limiting their distributors AND disallowing online sales at a penalty of losing access to their products? Yes. Those moves are exactly from GW's playbook 10 years ago and the next step will be to cut out distributors completely. Those moves are designed to increase their own profits and control over their products, not to benefit FLGS except as a potential side effect (and of course at the definite detriment of any FLGS that sells online as well). The "spin" is otherwise of course. I hold all companies to the same standards (with some exceptions for truely small companies) and if GW doesn't get a pass on those then neither should FFG when they do the exact same thing using the exact same pretense. Have those moves ultimately "helped" local stores when GW did them? No, they didn't. They did temporarily help GW though. The only difference is that FFG doesn't have a chain or retail stores or at least public plans for them so I suspect we'll likely see a not so gentle and steady push towards buying direct from them (both retailers and consumers).
There are four local stores in my area which could be reasonably classified as "friendly local game stores" to one degree or another.
Of those four, one has a website selling their merchandise at the same price that they sell it to you if you walk in the door (10% off MSRP), and the other three have varying degrees of online presence. Now, I don't know how much volume the new game store does in online sales, but the store with the online shop is also currently the one with the biggest area set aside for playing games in the store.
Then again, of the four stores, it's two of them which have significant areas set aside for playing games in the store. But one of the reasons why those two stores do so is to be able to host card game tournaments.
Peregrine wrote: Online stores in the US are parasites leeching off the hard work done by physical stores, and getting rid of them is good for the community.
Yes, that was the argument made by Mark Wells, as well. If you aren't providing gaming space, you're a parasite.
The irony of this statement being released at the same time as GW was busily downsizing their stores and removing gaming space provided some amusement.
The simple fact is that even in the US, there are a lot of people who don't play in stores, and/or don't have easy access to them. So getting rid of online stores is only good for those parts of the community that are interested in supporting local stores and actually have one to support.
But physical stores can't compete with online discount stores on price. They have to pay higher rent costs, more employee salaries, etc. The only way for the physical store to compete, outside of depending on people making charity donations out of a sense of obligation to support their local businesses, is to limit the amount of sales volume the online stores can have as much as possible.
And yet the largest online sellers here in Oz also have physical stores. Wayland games. Some of the biggest sellers in the UK are, and always have had, physical stores.
It's not that physical stores can't compete. They simply choose not to. That choice may be made because they can't afford it due to their business model... but that's still a choice.
A manufacturer prohibiting online sales removes that choice. Now, the physical store simply doesn't have that option, regardless of whether or not they could come up with a way (as some do) to make it work.
Restricting how a store can sell your product doesn't help the store. It just puts more hurdles in the way of them providing people with a product.
warboss wrote: Do they sell direct to consumers? Yes (as you said above with a strange distinction). Do they sell direct to retailers? Yes. Are they limiting their distributors AND disallowing online sales at a penalty of losing access to their products? Yes. Those moves are exactly from GW's playbook 10 years ago and the next step will be to cut out distributors completely. Those moves are designed to increase their own profits and control over their products, not to benefit FLGS except as a potential side effect (and of course at the definite detriment of any FLGS that sells online as well). The "spin" is otherwise of course. I hold all companies to the same standards (with some exceptions for truely small companies) and if GW doesn't get a pass on those then neither should FFG when they do the exact same thing using the exact same pretense. Have those moves ultimately "helped" local stores when GW did them? No, they didn't. They did temporarily help GW though. The only difference is that FFG doesn't have a chain or retail stores or at least public plans for them so I suspect we'll likely see a not so gentle and steady push towards buying direct from them (both retailers and consumers).
Except the GW analogy breaks down for two reasons:
1) FFGdoesn't have a significant direct sales volume. Technically you can buy from their very basic online store, but it's more of a "if you can't find it anywhere else" option and I don't know anyone who has ever bought anything from FFG directly. And speculating about what they might do someday if they're as bad as GW is just not a reasonable thing to do. As of now this is doing nothing to boost FFG's profits directly.
2) FFG hasn't shown any sign of GW-style exclusive products that you can only buy directly. That's what hurts physical stores the most, not the existence of GW's website. And speculating that FFG is going to move half of their product lines to their own store and cut out everyone else is tinfoil hat speculation, nothing more.
And let's be honest here, GW has a point about killing off online discount stores. They're parasites that provide nothing of value while hurting the people who support and promote GW's games. Their loss will not be mourned.
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Alex C wrote: Alternatively, they are a boon for us rural folk without a LGS and the only way to get miniatures without having to drive a 6 hour round trip.
I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US.
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insaniak wrote: Yes, that was the argument made by Mark Wells, as well. If you aren't providing gaming space, you're a parasite.
Exactly. It was a true argument back then, even if GW ignored it with their own stores. If you aren't providing gaming space, or at least a physical store that can attract new customers, you're a parasite and should be driven out of business.
The simple fact is that even in the US, there are a lot of people who don't play in stores, and/or don't have easy access to them. So getting rid of online stores is only good for those parts of the community that are interested in supporting local stores and actually have one to support.
But how many of those people would be playing those games without a store to build a community for them? Take away physical stores in the US and you probably lose 90% of the gaming community, if not more. So that's a pretty good reason to err on the side of protecting those physical stores.
It's not that physical stores can't compete. They simply choose not to.
In the US it's largely a "can't". A store that tried to compete with online discount prices would be lucky if they manage to break even, and would probably lose money on every sale.
Peregrine wrote: And let's be honest here, GW has a point about killing off online discount stores. They're parasites that provide nothing of value while hurting the people who support and promote GW's games. Their loss will not be mourned.
Here's the thing - When I first bought 40K, there was no local games store. I bought the 2nd edition starter set through mail order (and yes, at a discount).
There was no local games store 'supporting and promoting' GW's games. If I hadn't had access to a store that could sell me product without me having to set foot in the store, I wouldn't have bought that game... because I would have had no way to buy that game.
As for 'providing nothing of value', one of the biggest online-only sellers here in Oz is also one of the biggest supporters of local cons and tournies. They send god-knows-how-much product out into the community every year, helping those events to grow. They're not alone in that... plenty of online sellers support events. Hell, back when they were still a going concern, Maelstrom Games offered to single-handedly fund a fledging gaming convention here in Oz, in exchange for advertising.
The 'nothing of value' argument simply doesn't bear up under scrutiny. Online sellers don't provide gaming space (but then, neither do an awful lot of physical stores), but a lot of them provide quite significant support and value to the community.
Alex C wrote: Alternatively, they are a boon for us rural folk without a LGS and the only way to get miniatures without having to drive a 6 hour round trip.
I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US.
So feth us guys then, right?
For someone so concerned with building gaming communities, you seem awfully zealous about removing the only reasonable avenue of acquiring hobby stuff for rural gamers.
Retail in general is moving to online discounters, it's not just the gaming market. Any company that thinks it can fight this trend is frankly arrogant and stupid.
Except the GW analogy breaks down for two reasons:
1) FFGdoesn't have a significant direct sales volume. Technically you can buy from their very basic online store, but it's more of a "if you can't find it anywhere else" option and I don't know anyone who has ever bought anything from FFG directly. And speculating about what they might do someday if they're as bad as GW is just not a reasonable thing to do. As of now this is doing nothing to boost FFG's profits directly.
FFG doesn't have significant direct sales volume YET (an assumption btw). Do you want to know how they got that significant direct sales volume? They started by doing EXACTLY what Fantasy Flight is doing following in their footsteps with the same copy/paste spin as well.
2) FFG hasn't shown any sign of GW-style exclusive products that you can only buy directly. That's what hurts physical stores the most, not the existence of GW's website. And speculating that FFG is going to move half of their product lines to their own store and cut out everyone else is tinfoil hat speculation, nothing more.
FFG hasn't shown any sign of GW style exclusive products YET. There were years between the start of the douche moves on their part till they moved the majority of their product line into "direct" status. FFG is combining MULTIPLE douche GW moves into one so I expect the rest of the program to be accelerated as well.. but it is obviously not instant. Give them a few years to work up to it. The only difference I expect (beyond the accelerated timeline) will be that they won't ultimately open up their own brick and mortar stores.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
As an Austrian, the sentiment that Online Stores are "parasites" that need to be killed off in order to protect the "community nurturing FLGS" always seemed nonsensical to me.
Why? Because around here, a FLGS is a shop that provides wares that you buy and then leave. Stores with gaming venues are the absolute exception, most of the stores simply do not have the space or the interest to provide gaming space.
There are currently three FLGS that I frequent in Vienna.
One of them provides space for gaming, but also has the highest prices. I rarely go there, because the stock doesn't match up with my interest and if it does, I usually have a cheaper option.
The second one also has high prices and provides a space for gaming that is, frankly, a complete joke. It's pretty much only an option for when I need something absolutely NOW and can't get it anywhere else.
The third one is a tiny shop that matches up perfectly with my tastes AND undercuts any other store in town. Heck, most of the time it also undercuts online retailers. It also provides no gaming space. The only difference to an online store is the fact that I can look at the boxes and take them with me when I decide to buy them, but other than that there's no difference to an online store. In the cases where buying online would be cheaper, I weigh the services the store provides ((looking at the boxes and taking them with me) against the savings and decide accordingly.
So, is the last store a parasite that needs to be shut down to protect the other two?
Alex C wrote: Since I have no local game stores and don't attend conventions, I guess I won't be buying any more FFG product.
Unless MM/Warstore qualify under their exception.
Is that because you wouldn't buy FFG stuff at full MSRP regardless of who you bought it from---even if nobody sold it discounted?
Honestly curious.
Alex C mentioned in other posts how its about a 3 hour round trip for him to a FLGS.
---
At first I was in favor of this news when I heard about it on a friend's blog. He owns a brick and mortar which I used to frequent. This would be kind of good for him in that it would push more business for him. But Alex C reminded me that there are some folks... enough folks, in my opinion... that don't have easy access to a brick and mortar they can get stock from.
TheWaspinator wrote: Retail in general is moving to online discounters, it's not just the gaming market. Any company that thinks it can fight this trend is frankly arrogant and stupid.
Indeed, and brick and mortar stores can compete by offering things other than simple discounts, such as workshops and on-hand expertise, as well as getting to handle the product before you buy.
Brick and mortar gaming stores can offer so many more services than an online store can, even if they can't necessarily match price, but they have to put the effort in. Unfortunately most gaming stores I've seen tend to have minimal stock, are hosting no events and are manned by a socially inept ape sat behind a desk not actively doing anything to sell product, rather just hoping that swarms of nerds will appear to fork over large amounts of cash for him to "order it, it'll be here in 2 weeks". If that's their idea of competing, no wonder they fail.
Absolutely no need for arbitrarily shutting down an entire avenue of acquiring merchandise just to favor another.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
Exactly. I've seen people lamenting a 40-minute trip as being too far out of the way. That's my trip to work every morning.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
Seriously. I live a little over an hour from a major US city (Pittsburgh) and it's more hassle than it's worth to make the trip. Driving that distance to get a game (an iffy prospect in itself) is right out.
And I somewhat resent your repeated assertion that online game stores are "leeches". Not all of us share your apparent gaming wonderland. For some of us online is the only realistic access to product we have. Oh, and I'd be willing to bet good odds that people with access to good game stores are outnumbered by scores of magnitude by those who don't.
But, hey, you got yours; so feth us, right?
~Eric
Edit for clarity:
The above was addressing Peregrine's comments , and not Insaniak's.
Alex C wrote: Since I have no local game stores and don't attend conventions, I guess I won't be buying any more FFG product.
Unless MM/Warstore qualify under their exception.
Is that because you wouldn't buy FFG stuff at full MSRP regardless of who you bought it from---even if nobody sold it discounted?
Honestly curious.
I would to support an LGS. I have bought lots of product at full MSRP when I lived near a gaming store, and was happy to do so as they provided services that an online store cannot.
My current issue is not so much being unwilling to pay MSRP, as having an actual avenue to purchase the product at all. If those avenues were closed, my hobby spending would become virtually zero, which might actually be good for my bank balance
BrookM wrote: First they cancel almost all of their 40KRPG lines and now this...
Got a link to that announcement?
Last book was released October and they're currently still doing reprints of a few others. I haven't seen or heard anything about the lines being canceled so I also would be interested in a link.
Is that because you wouldn't buy FFG stuff at full MSRP regardless of who you bought it from---even if nobody sold it discounted?
Honestly curious.
I can't speak for Alex C, but I probably wouldn't buy FFG stuff at MSRP. Imperial Assault is currently being sold for $65 on Amazon. That's a pretty good price for that game - but I wouldn't consider it a bargain. However, the MSRP of Imperial Assault is $100, which is neither a bargain nor a particularly attractive price. There's no added value to me, the consumer, so all I see is that the price is now $30 more for no discernible benefit. The game did not become $30 more valuable, especially since it'd take $30 to then buy all the figures that the game left out (want Han? That's another $10... I mean $15). The Return to Hoth expansion is a difference of $20 - or the price of two figure expansions. FFG is built around endless expansions, and paying MSRP for those expansions will significantly increase their price - suddenly leaving Han out of Imperial Assault to be purchased separately seems like an even bigger rip off.
Even without the mental opposition of knowing I should be paying a lot less than I'm forced to, the fact is, I'm WAY less likely to buy something for $100 than I am $65. I have a limited budget every month for entertainment purposes. When the cost of board games goes up, I have to choose between them and other entertainment products, like video games, and since I'm not primarily a board gamer, board games lose out. The worsening value of board games would ensure that I spend my money elsewhere. Video games, for example, drop in price quickly, and I can get a $60 experience for $20-$30 if I wait two months. Imperial Assault could compete with that at $65, but not at $100. Can you tell me that Imperial Assault is worth four or five PS4 games?
So yeah, I wouldn't pay MSRP for FFG stuff. They only barely justify their cost now, at a 30%-50% discount, and at a higher price, they would lose their appeal completely.
Alex C wrote: Exactly. I've seen people lamenting a 40-minute trip as being too far out of the way. That's my trip to work every morning.
The nearest store to me is about a 40 minute round-trip... but it's in an area that I don't go to for anything else, and between work and family stuff, that just doesn't happen these days. If I couldn't buy what I need online, I wouldn't be buying anything.
I've bought exactly one new GW product since their regional sales policy went into effect. It would have been through Wayland Games (who run a physical store, and therefore don't count as parasites but who apparently are breaking the laws of time and space by selling at the same price as other online discounters despite such a thing being (apparently) impossible) but due to them no longer being allowed to sell to me, I bought from a US seller on eBay instead.
So, yeah, restricting online sales was certainly a win for the physical store there.
The policy under discussion here seems to be slightly different to GW's, but it's still a backwards step in an increasingly online world, and I don't see any way that it can be good for the hobby community as a whole.
BrookM wrote: First they cancel almost all of their 40KRPG lines and now this...
Got a link to that announcement?
Last book was released October and they're currently still doing reprints of a few others. I haven't seen or heard anything about the lines being canceled so I also would be interested in a link.
HBMC freelances as a writer for them. While he is absolutely technically correct in the strictest RAWYMDC rules sort of way, I suspect the distinction he draws between having a half dozen RPG lines and only coming out with product for the newest 1-2 of them in a given year versus "cancelling" them isn't shared by everyone. YMMV but I think it is more forthright for a company to simply say "we've cancelled further development for the game" instead of saying nothing and most importantly doing nothing for multiple years on end with no actual news.
Alex C wrote: Since I have no local game stores and don't attend conventions, I guess I won't be buying any more FFG product.
Unless MM/Warstore qualify under their exception.
Is that because you wouldn't buy FFG stuff at full MSRP regardless of who you bought it from---even if nobody sold it discounted?
Honestly curious.
I would to support an LGS. I have bought lots of product at full MSRP when I lived near a gaming store, and was happy to do so as they provided services that an online store cannot.
My current issue is not so much being unwilling to pay MSRP, as having an actual avenue to purchase the product at all. If those avenues were closed, my hobby spending would become virtually zero, which might actually be good for my bank balance
Polonius wrote: I really doubt they will forbid online sales. That seems unlikely and foolish.
They will likely try to rein in huge online discounts, which currently make buying FFG stuff for MSRP seem pretty dumb.
The reality is that in the US gaming stores are the center of hobby communities the bulk of the time.
The article says they are and the website is run by one of the distributors mentioned in the article.
Online sales and mail order will be prohibited with exceptions granted for online retailers that “contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation,” the company said.
I'm guess that "significant scale" part will exclude the really big online names like the warstore, wayland, and miniature market for now. FFG is likely banking on most of the small mom and pop online sales not being lost since the smaller retailers don't have a choice but don't want to risk pissing off the few folks that give them tens of thousands of dollars monthly/yearly.
Polonius wrote: I really doubt they will forbid online sales. That seems unlikely and foolish.
Well, no... they're just forbidding online sales from anyone who doesn't sell huge quantities.
Because, you know, Amazon needs all the help it can get ...
So in essence they're restricting the ability of the small business owner to enter and compete in the online marketplace, therefore cutting revenue streams for friendly local brick and mortar stores?
I'm still failing to see how this is good for anyone, least of all any local physical store that you might frequent.
Honestly, i hear a lot of whining for something so vague and undetailed.
Couple key points to remember, if the sky is falling.
1.) This isn't the end of online stores. This is the end of stores that do not directly support the hobby. Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby. This is the end to Amazon selling $20 X-wing ships for $11.09. No sensible defense for that kind of pricing.
2.) You will still be able to purchase online, just not from insane discounters. Your FLGS most likely will have a online store, and will gladly accept online orders.
warboss wrote: hose moves are designed to increase their own profits and control over their products, not to benefit FLGS except as a potential side effect (and of course at the definite detriment of any FLGS that sells online as well).
I had a discussion with a store/gaming pub owner over the cost of carrying FFG's LCGs, and he confided that despite being relatively popular (he himself is a huge tournament player), they are one of the things he hates ordering the most. A single data pack overstocked for Netrunner will eat the profits for that release.
This seems to align with the purpose stated by C. Petersen. I am more than willing to pay 3-7$ over what some obscure site may offer if it is to encourage the local scene.
Neronoxx wrote: . Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.
Of course it does. Giving someone access to something they can't get locally is supporting their hobby.
Besides which, as I mentioned earlier, the 'support for the hobby' argument is invalid the moment that you have physical stores that don't provide that 'support' either. There are plenty of stores selling gaming-related product that don't offer gaming space, or have staff who know next to nothing about the product. So if you're going to insist that stores provide product support in order to stock a product, suppliers are going to have to be an awful lot more choosy than just asking 'Do you sell online?'
And that's not taking into account the fact that a lot of us don't need that 'support' from the store. The sole extent of my interaction with a gaming store is that I give them money, and they give me product. I couldn't care less if the staff can teach me to wetblend or not, nor could any of the people I regularly game with.
The 'support for the community' argument is nonsense. It's a platitude that doesn't actually make any sense when you stop and look at it.
streamdragon wrote: TIL I'm a parasite because I live in the country and don't have a brick and mortar store to support.
No, you're not the parasite. That would be silly.
It's the online stores that you buy from that are parasites, because they're taking your money but contributing nothing to your gaming community.
Because apparently giving people access to stuff that they otherwise wouldn't have access to doesn't count...
Did FFG just announced that they somehow managed to shut down the US postal service?
Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone, they provided a cheaper option of purchase, which hurt store retailers because of draconian distribution practices.
Kovnik Obama wrote: Did FFG just announced that they somehow managed to shut down the US postal service?
Online discounters did not "give access" to anyone, they provided a cheaper option of purchase, which hurt store retailers because of draconian distribution practices.
Except they're not just shutting down online discounters, they're shutting down online sales for everybody who doesn't satisfy certain criteria.
Note that the post you were responding to made no mention of discounters at all.
Kovnik Obama wrote: But it will end up supporting the community, which is a keyer key than your key.
Maybe you and I just have different interpretations of the word 'supporting'... Because to my mind, giving people fewer places from which to purchase your product, and giving stores fewer options for how they can choose to sell your product wouldn't really seem to fit the bill.
Kinda late to the party, aren't you? I stopped backing FFG when they fethed up BattleLore 1E.
That wasn't FFG's fault though. Days of Wonder fethed that up long before FFG ever came into the picture. It was criminal, DoW's handling of that game. Pretty much on par with Battlefront/Dust Tactics, but with slightly less fraud.
Neronoxx wrote: . Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.
Of course it does. Giving someone access to something they can't get locally is supporting their hobby.
Besides which, as I mentioned earlier, the 'support for the hobby' argument is invalid the moment that you have physical stores that don't provide that 'support' either. There are plenty of stores selling gaming-related product that don't offer gaming space, or have staff who know next to nothing about the product. So if you're going to insist that stores provide product support in order to stock a product, suppliers are going to have to be an awful lot more choosy than just asking 'Do you sell online?'
And that's not taking into account the fact that a lot of us don't need that 'support' from the store. The sole extent of my interaction with a gaming store is that I give them money, and they give me product. I couldn't care less if the staff can teach me to wetblend or not, nor could any of the people I regularly game with.
The 'support for the community' argument is nonsense. It's a platitude that doesn't actually make any sense when you stop and look at it.
A huge amount of games are sold via demos. By store, convention or otherwise. People have to be shown what something is before they buy it.
Does Amazon do demos? What about Wayland games? Or Miniature Market?
The fact is, all you are asking for is someone to give your money to, but you then hand that money to companies who aren't even involved with the hobby outside of the business end, solely due to price. Yet you are buying a product that is founded, funded and born from physical game stores.
Do the majority of physical stores have gaming space? Maybe not. But you say that's not important.
Do the majority of online stores participate in massive price undercuts? Absolutely. Is that all that is important to you? The best deal?
If it is, you are supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist for the gaming industry to thrive, and sliding the industry even further in that direction.
That is nonsense.
A huge amount of games are sold via demos. By store, convention or otherwise. People have to be shown what something is before they buy it.
Sure. And that's a good reason for stores to do demos.
That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to only allow stores to sell your product if they run demos. (For the record, I have at least a dozen different miniatures games. I played demos for exactly none of them before buying them... so whether or not the store I bought them from ran demos would have had absolutely zero effect on my decision to purchase.)
It also doesn't mean it's a good idea to only apply that requirement to run demos if the store in question only sells online.
Does Amazon do demos? What about Wayland games? Or Miniature Market?
I would assume that Wayland does.
Amazon obviously doesn't... whch would seem to suggest that demos are not required to sell gaming product.
The fact is, all you are asking for is someone to give your money to, but you then hand that money to companies who aren't even involved with the hobby outside of the business end, solely due to price.
Do I?
Several of the online stores I regularly buy from are companies that have physical storefronts. I just buy online as it's cheaper than flying to Melbourne. Or England.
Again, the prohibition that is being suggested in this announcement isn't just affecting online discounters. They want to stop everyone from selling online.
Do the majority of physical stores have gaming space? Maybe not. But you say that's not important.
It's important to some customers. Not at all to others.
Do the majority of online stores participate in massive price undercuts? Absolutely. Is that all that is important to you? The best deal?
I haven't done enough research on the majority of online stores to know for sure. But, ultimately, that's not my problem. It's up to the store to set their prices at a level they are comfortable with, and for me as the customer to choose whether or not to buy from them.
If it is, you are supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist for the gaming industry to thrive, and sliding the industry even further in that direction.
No, I'm supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist in order for me to support my hobby.
Some customers will find value in physical stores running gaming tables and 'supporting' their hobby. Some will not. Expecting those who don't to fund those things for those who do is short-sighted. The logical thing to do is to allow those who want to purchase from a store to purchase from a store, and those who want to purchase online to purchase online.
Restricting access to a product is not the way to encourage the growth of that product.
What occurs to me is that The War Store still offers to sell people Games Workshop models over the internet. A person who wants to buy GW from them simply doesn't get the convenience of shopping with a modern shopping cart and instead has to either call the store or e-mail them, and then wait for the invoice by mail.
So Amodee is actually specifying terms that are more restrictive than Games Workshop, since they're prohibiting retailers doing any mail order (including the primitive phone or e-mail driven sort).
A. Channel of Sale
RETAILER MUST NOT SELL OR TRANSFER ANY ANA PRODUCT PURCHASED HEREUNDER IN ANY MANNER OTHER THAN THROUGH FACE-TO-FACE COMMERCIAL RESALE EXCHANGE WITH END-USERS IN RETAILER'S PHYSICAL RETAIL LOCATION(S) OR AT A PHYSICAL EXTENSION OF THE RETAILER'S RETAIL LOCATION AT A CONSUMER SHOW/CONVENTION. ALL OTHER CHANNELS AND METHODS OF SALE FOR ANA PRODUCT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO SUB-DISTRIBUTION, SALES OVER THE INTERNET, AND MAIL ORDER.
FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, ANY TRANSFER OR SALE OF ANA PRODUCTS TO SUBSIDIARIES OR AFFILIATE COMPANIES CONTROLLED, OR PARTIALLY CONTROLLED, BY RETAILER OR ANY OF RETAILERS' OWNERS AND/OR SHAREHOLDERS, ARE PROHIBITED HEREUNDER.
and even has a "Yes, we really, really mean it" section:
Q: I sell some Asmodee North America products in my store, and some on my website (or through another online marketplace). As an Asmodee Specialty Retailer, will I be able to continue to do all of this?
A: No, as a Specialty Retailer, you are limited to the channel of sale involving resale of Asmodee North America products to end-users only, by transaction in your physical retail stores only.
Q: I want to sell products from Asmodee North America online, how do I do this?
A: We will be very selective as to which online merchants will be authorized to sell our products. To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation. Most online sales activities, including sales through third party websites, will not be authorized.
Q: I sub-distribute products to other businesses, what do I do?
A: Asmodee North America will not authorize sub-distribution of our products, unless by rare and unique exception.
so even something like The War Store buying some product and then selling that at cost to 'Totally Not The WarStore's eBay account' isn't likely to last long.
Peregrine wrote: The actual reason for this policy is that FFG recognizes the importance of physical stores in marketing and supporting their products. An online discount store is cheaper, but doesn't host tournaments, persuade new customers to buy stuff, put up a rack of games in a prominent location, etc.
Well, you may have heard of BoardGameGeek which effectively promotes boardgames every day much better than the FLGS you visit weekly (or monthly... or never).
Anyone here remember Mayfair? They make games like Catan and... uh... games. The implemented this policy a few years ago. My suspicion is that Asmodee wants their games in Target and Walmart like Mayfair does.
To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation.
Yep. Walmart and Target!
I should mention that, for quite awhile already, It's Magic the Gathering which the FLGS has relied upon for sales, not boardgames. (Not sure how much the FLGS relies upon Warhammer 40K and similar games.) FLGS's, of course, run CCG tournaments (eg. drafts, release tournaments) that do not fit the format of a boardgame. OTOH, FFG *has* been running its even center for several years, so may know how to make boardgames dependent on the FLGS like Magic the Gathering is.
Still, Asmodee and FFG don't control the boardgame market like GW controls the miniature wargaming market. When's CMON's next KS starting, anyway???
If a brick and mortar store wants to compete, they have to change, either sell online as a side, or make me want to come to your store.
Games stores are not charities.
warboss wrote: It was a douche move when Gw did it and is now with Asmodee/FFG. It seems when a games company reaches a certain size, the greed blooms uncontrollably. This no more is a real reason than it was with Gw. I guess in a few years we'll see similar follow up moves like cutting out distributors further then direct only xwing ships.
Not really greed, FFG, indeed GW, makes the same money selling to a FLGS as does to miniature market, it's the individual store margins that vary. They don't really believe that this move is going to push mire sales through their own online store, it's more likely they've decided that they are fed up of cheap online sales harming the retailers who do real events, that actually use the gaming kit to do events rather than ebay it, are worth protecting. Amazon, however, will not get cut out. I guarantee it.
insaniak wrote: Amazon obviously doesn't... whch would seem to suggest that demos are not required to sell gaming product.
It's funny you mention this because one of the reasons people hate amazon is that they take advantage of the promotional work physical stores do to create customers and then hijack those customers by offering lower prices. I don't know how common it is, but there's at least anecdotal evidence of people going into physical stores, getting help choosing a product from the store employees, and then scanning the barcode to buy it on amazon at a discount the store can't afford to offer.
So, in the case of games on amazon, demos are still necessary and amazon is just taking advantage of the fact that other people are doing all of the work of demos/recruiting friends/etc.
They want to stop everyone from selling online.
That's not what it says. The policy grants exceptions to stores FFG wants to permit. My guess is that they'll make arrangements for certain online stores to continue selling at full retail price, ensuring access to products for people who don't have physical stores nearby but preventing the online market from undercutting the physical stores.
No, I'm supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist in order for me to support my hobby.
And you're wrong, at least in the US. Stores are incredibly important in recruiting new players, and filling the need for a "you will always have a place to play this" safety net that makes people willing to invest a ton of money into a game that requires 2+ people. You personally might not need a physical store because you only play kitchen table games with one friend, but without the stores you probably wouldn't have started playing in the first place and you won't have a company to buy from very much longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: FFG doesn't have significant direct sales volume YET (an assumption btw). Do you want to know how they got that significant direct sales volume? They started by doing EXACTLY what Fantasy Flight is doing following in their footsteps with the same copy/paste spin as well.
Err, what? GW have always had significant direct sales, from the day the company was created as a retail store for D&D products in the UK. There is no point in GW's history where they haven't been competing with third-party sales and getting significant percentages of their revenue from direct sales. FFG has a completely different business model, and there's no reason at all to believe that they're about to switch to a GW-style model.
He seems quite pleased about it. I suspect a fair number of FLGS owners will be too.
Board Games, and even this X-wing game also sell in the Big Box stores-- Target, Walmart etc-- in the USA. I wonder if those places had any influence on the decision?
That is one of my LGS. The owner is a donkey cave who has numerous times accused online retailers of stealing food from his kids mouths. Anything he says should be taken with some salt.
It's to bad really, the fact is they will lose a customer base by forcing people to got to stores. I do not want to drive an hour paying for gas to pay full price. I play at home with friends and would actualy avoided stores. D & D and other RPG's seem to deal with it fine. They are not forced to buy in a store to play. In the end sales will go down regardless of those paying MSRP.
Customers will chase their fantasy in another game or go to video games at discount prices online.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and one more item, LGS generally have several systems in their store, with the exception of GW.
Q: I sell some Asmodee North America products in my store, and some on my website (or through another online marketplace). As an Asmodee Specialty Retailer, will I be able to continue to do all of this?
A: No, as a Specialty Retailer, you are limited to the channel of sale involving resale of Asmodee North America products to end-users only, by transaction in your physical retail stores only.
Q: I want to sell products from Asmodee North America online, how do I do this?
A: We will be very selective as to which online merchants will be authorized to sell our products. To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation. Most online sales activities, including sales through third party websites, will not be authorized.
Q: I sub-distribute products to other businesses, what do I do?
A: Asmodee North America will not authorize sub-distribution of our products, unless by rare and unique exception.
I wonder if this is going to affect availability of Netrunner and other FFG games among my gaming group. I'm not sure the exact distribution channel but I suspect we're going through a North American distributor like Alliance or someone.
Basically, our LGS doesn't actually sell FFG product. I'm not sure why - it might not be profitable enough for him. What he does (as a favor to the gaming community that actually pays by the hour for tables and runs events in his shop that make him some extra coin) is collect an order sheet from us every month or two, which he then uses to place an order with a regional distributor, getting us product at just a shade below US retail price, without us needing to pay international shipping fees.
If the distributor is getting stock from the US, as I suspect he is, this move will effectively cut our entire gaming network off from our supply. There are plenty of board game shops in Taipei, but not many of them stock FFG product, and none of them bring in new LCG stuff with any regularity, nor do any actually have close to a full range of FFG product. It's possible they all source from the US (same as local stores selling miniatures do).
In terms of the future of this policy, I hope that it's found that the number of people unable to buy from an LGS exceeds the number who order online because it's cheaper, causing a visible impact in sales which make someone realize that the plan has backfired and needs to be rethought.
Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby
By that logic, a car dealership who only sells cars, is not supporting the car industry because he doesn't organise a Grand Prix or other races?
Here in the UK, I live in the middle of nowhere, and it's a 4 hour round trip to the nearest FLGS. As you can imagine, the petrol price for that is not cheap.
Buying stuff online saves a fair amount of money.
Somebody mentioned Wayland Games earlier, but they run events now as well, and it looks like they're building bricks and mortar stores.
NoggintheNog wrote: The problem actually doing this is that you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the internet is not going away so whatever they do is really never going to be effective long term, it mainly ends up annoying customers.
How can it not be effective long term? The publisher has full control of who they sell to and at what prices, if they want to remove internet discount sales they can easily do it. And honestly, they might lose a few sales from people who are outraged about losing their discount sellers but I suspect it's a tiny price to pay for keeping their physical store networks intact.
It's not a question of outrage. People's money supply doesn't expand to accommodate the higher prices so people will just be forced to buy less stuff.
Neronoxx wrote: Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby.
Online discounters increase the supply of opponents by reducing the barrier to entry. That benefits you and your hobby even if you don't buy from an online discounter yourself.
It doesn't say they'll stop all online sales, just be very selective about who can sell online, right? Terms look really harsh but people should still be able to order product from home by some means...
RiTides wrote: It doesn't say they'll stop all online sales, just be very selective about who can sell online, right? Terms look really harsh but people should still be able to order product from home by some means...
I might suddenly get selective on where I spend my money. It's a two way street, and something that FFG should consider.
Da Boss wrote: If you live in the countryside or far away from an FLGS, can't you still just order direct from FFG? You just can't get a discount now, right?
you'll certainly be able to order direct, but FFG's postage is really expensive so not only will you miss out on discount, you'll also be paying a heavy extra shipping toll
Honestly, it really just sounds like people are butt-hurt about this because they wont be able to buy board games and other games at cost.
I know for a fact that if a FLGS were to sell all of their board games at Amazon's prices, they would actually lose money.
Keep this up, and then they would go out of buisness.
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
People come into our store all the time, look at what we have, then buy it online cheaper. We do price matching, but some people just prefer to buy online, after coming into our store, taking up our time, and then leaving us with nothing. It makes you just want to dump the entire gaming aisle.
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
No, I'm supporting the notion that physical game stores do not need to exist in order for me to support my hobby.
And you're wrong, at least in the US. Stores are incredibly important in recruiting new players, and filling the need for a "you will always have a place to play this" safety net that makes people willing to invest a ton of money into a game that requires 2+ people. You personally might not need a physical store because you only play kitchen table games with one friend, but without the stores you probably wouldn't have started playing in the first place and you won't have a company to buy from very much longer.
You either have real issues seeing things from a perspective that is not yours, or you seriously have no concept of how spread out the population in the US is. Many (I'd even say most) gamers have no LGS, or one that doesn't give the kind of support that happens in your gaming wonderland. BGG does more to support the hobby than any brick and mortar store I've ever been to (at least a dozen over the years).
But again, it seems like more "I got mine, feth you".
Neronoxx wrote: Honestly, it really just sounds like people are butt-hurt about this because they wont be able to buy board games and other games at cost.
I know for a fact that if a FLGS were to sell all of their board games at Amazon's prices, they would actually lose money.
Keep this up, and then they would go out of buisness.
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
People come into our store all the time, look at what we have, then buy it online cheaper. We do price matching, but some people just prefer to buy online, after coming into our store, taking up our time, and then leaving us with nothing. It makes you just want to dump the entire gaming aisle.
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
I'm all in favour of helping FLGS, but I live hours away from a store.
Why not directly order from FFG?
A reasonable question, but I live in a remote part of Britain and because of that, postal couriers slap an extra delivery charge on top of things.
I need to save money where I can, hence the reason I like ordering from online discounters. Their 20% discount helps a lot in that regard.
Neronoxx wrote: Honestly, it really just sounds like people are butt-hurt about this because they wont be able to buy board games and other games at cost.
I know for a fact that if a FLGS were to sell all of their board games at Amazon's prices, they would actually lose money.
Keep this up, and then they would go out of buisness.
The only people who are supportive of the move seem to be located in the US, and near an LGS at that. Otherwise they'd understand that it's not just about the money - it's about not necessarily having an LGS at which to buy from. It's like you didn't really read the thread at all and simply decided to put your own opinion in writing.
And yes, I get it, the answer to not having an LGS is "buy from FFG" - at which point it might become about money. But it certainly is no longer about supporting your LGS because if you don't fething have one and need to order from FFG the point is entirely moot.
Limiting how, where and when customer's can buy your product will only ever hurt you in the long term.
GW have tried this already, how are the sales doing, oh that's right there in decline.
FFG make the same amount of money selling at trade to an online discounter as they do to a brick and mortar store. If they stop selling product to online stores, they will only hurt their own sales.
Many customers many only buy product at the discounted rates available online, trying to get everyone to sell at RRP will just reduce your sales.
Supporting FLGS is a very good thing, certainly in the US where clubs are the exception.
Even if you are a long way from one they are still a good thing, otherwise you would be that much further from the next oasis in your gaming desert.
A corporate entity has to look after those FLGS as they, along with distributors) are the majority of their customers. That's who hands them their money and makes their sales that's who this is designed to aide.
Tamereth wrote: Limiting how, where and when customer's can buy your product will only ever hurt you in the long term.
GW have tried this already, how are the sales doing, oh that's right there in decline.
FFG make the same amount of money selling at trade to an online discounter as they do to a brick and mortar store. If they stop selling product to online stores, they will only hurt their own sales.
Many customers many only buy product at the discounted rates available online, trying to get everyone to sell at RRP will just reduce your sales.
A bad decision no matter how you look at it.
I actually don't think GW limiting online sales mattered at all. Lets be realistic here and admit that GW screwed up so much other stuff that it's hard to compare a single decision.
Other businesses have been killed by discount-battles. No need to repeat this with TT and boardgames. And after the battles were over the customer never profited from any of these battles in the long run.
The big problem a few here are having with perspective is rooted in their being tabletop wargamers.
My group of friends that play boardgames and X-Wing do not do so in stores. There are some lgs, but we do not play there.
For support we look to Boardgame Geek, the Dice Tower, and Geek & Sundry Tabletop. The store offers nothing but full retail price and spotty inventory.
Why would we need to give them our custom when they don't carry a good stock of the product, or offer to "order it for me".
If that is all the service a lgs can give me, I'll order online and have it many days faster at a much lower price.
I don't owe them my business just because they are local to me.
A common complaint seems to be, "I live in a remote area with no FLGS, so why should I bother supporting them when I can get it cheaper?"
Sorry, but to be honest, how is that anyone else's problem but your own? Why do FLGS have to suffer online discounters because you live in the middle of nowhere? It's not a customer service issue if you restrict yourself to not being a customer.
So in short, you say "It's YOUR problem I live in the boonies, so i'm going to buy it from someone else." That is what i'm hearing, correct?
Supporting the hobby should be a gaming companies ultimate goal. Encouraging price wars between online stores and physical retailers IS NOT how you support the hobby OR the industry. People say FLGS have to change how they do business in order to survive, but those people don't know what it takes to run one, or even how they should change. It's all just baseless opinions founded on greed and selfishness.
Are cheap games easier to get into? Yeah, absolutely. Starting MTG costs roughly $15, and X-wing and other board games are anywhere from $30-60. But don't defend undercutters by claiming that these already inexpensive games should be cheaper because that's the only way you can afford it. That's called entitlement.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying discounters are bad. 10-20% off is fine, and stores make good enough money they could do that all year round. It's the 40-50% discounters that kill FLGS. And it only takes one of these discounters to ruin it for a huge portion of stores. I would gladly pay full price, plus shipping for any game I wanted to play. If I can't afford it, that's no one else's problem but mine.
I guess it's just a case that FFG are so big now due to their recent successes that they get to call the shots, and have decided to support traditional retailers and their own direct sales over online discounters.
The postage thing sucks, for sure. I didn't know they charged above the market rate for postage. I wonder how much the free postage eats into the profits of the other discounters.
NoggintheNog wrote: The problem actually doing this is that you cannot put the genie back in the bottle, the internet is not going away so whatever they do is really never going to be effective long term, it mainly ends up annoying customers.
How can it not be effective long term? The publisher has full control of who they sell to and at what prices, if they want to remove internet discount sales they can easily do it. And honestly, they might lose a few sales from people who are outraged about losing their discount sellers but I suspect it's a tiny price to pay for keeping their physical store networks intact.
I assume this is about reigning in the discounts (think FoW where the max discount if typically 10%) rather than distribution because there are a lot of customers who buy exclusively through online. They will lose a lot of customers if this is intended to push brick-in-mortar.
skrulnik wrote: The big problem a few here are having with perspective is rooted in their being tabletop wargamers.
My group of friends that play boardgames and X-Wing do not do so in stores. There are some lgs, but we do not play there.
For support we look to Boardgame Geek, the Dice Tower, and Geek & Sundry Tabletop. The store offers nothing but full retail price and spotty inventory.
Why would we need to give them our custom when they don't carry a good stock of the product, or offer to "order it for me".
If that is all the service a lgs can give me, I'll order online and have it many days faster at a much lower price.
I don't owe them my business just because they are local to me.
Yeah, if your LGS sucks, speak with your wallet. But just to be clear, let me present the other half of your story.
Customer enters the store, peruses the board game section with friends/ while looking at phone.
Customer doesn't find what they are looking for, and orders it online.
Customer leaves store.
If you doubt any part of this, ask yourself how much patience the average person has, then leverage that against the impulse of instant gratification and you'll understand how often this occurs. Many times, customers don't even enter the store, they just call in, and are price matching while on the phone.
Many gaming stores stock what they can. What they can stock is what they sell.
Many gaming stores can order product in. This takes maybe 2-5 days.
If you want a gaming store to carry a product, order it from them. They will not/ can not suddenly generate revenue out of nowhere to stock something they don't usually.
If you order it online, chances are that store will never carry it.
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Duncan_Idaho wrote: Actually, price-wars are quite often the reason there are no stores near you.
Can we post this on the entire internet? Because this is kind of the point.
Neronoxx wrote: A common complaint seems to be, "I live in a remote area with no FLGS, so why should I bother supporting them when I can get it cheaper?"
Sorry, but to be honest, how is that anyone else's problem but your own? Why do FLGS have to suffer online discounters because you live in the middle of nowhere? It's not a customer service issue if you restrict yourself to not being a customer.
So in short, you say "It's YOUR problem I live in the boonies, so i'm going to buy it from someone else." That is what i'm hearing, correct?
Supporting the hobby should be a gaming companies ultimate goal. Encouraging price wars between online stores and physical retailers IS NOT how you support the hobby OR the industry. People say FLGS have to change how they do business in order to survive, but those people don't know what it takes to run one, or even how they should change. It's all just baseless opinions founded on greed and selfishness.
Are cheap games easier to get into? Yeah, absolutely. Starting MTG costs roughly $15, and X-wing and other board games are anywhere from $30-60. But don't defend undercutters by claiming that these already inexpensive games should be cheaper because that's the only way you can afford it. That's called entitlement.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying discounters are bad. 10-20% off is fine, and stores make good enough money they could do that all year round. It's the 40-50% discounters that kill FLGS. And it only takes one of these discounters to ruin it for a huge portion of stores. I would gladly pay full price, plus shipping for any game I wanted to play. If I can't afford it, that's no one else's problem but mine.
And the flipside is that it is not the consumer's problem if a retailer can't fulfil their desires. Why should I as a consumer limit myself and spend more of my hard-earned money than I need to? If a product can be bought cheaper at X establishment, why should I shop at Y establishment? It is not an FLGS' problem that somone might live in a Rural area and it is not the consumer's problem if an FLGS is incapable of competing with other businesses
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
Depends on perspective. GW does control their pricing, but now they have created new competitors who seem to be thriving when GW is surviving. They have lost customers...someone who stops buying is worse than someone who buys at a deep discount.
And let's be fair, the issue is the higher priced items where you can find them at 30% to 50% of retail not the $30 or less items.
Have you considered whether the issue is pricing not discounting? If a store has to discount by 30% to 50% to sell the product than it might be priced too high based on what the actual demand is at that price level.
Neronoxx wrote: And it only takes one of these discounters to ruin it for a huge portion of stores. I would gladly pay full price, plus shipping for any game I wanted to play. If I can't afford it, that's no one else's problem but mine.
A bold claim regarding the perhaps only larger gaming company even more expensive than GW for what you usually get in the box (e.g. Armada, Imperial Assault), seeing most people consider GW's high prices as a big reason for the companies slow decline, or at least a big reason for the shrinking (not growing) of the gaming community for their games.
Yeah, if your LGS sucks, speak with your wallet. But just to be clear, let me present the other half of your story.
Customer enters the store, peruses the board game section with friends/ while looking at phone.
Customer doesn't find what they are looking for, and orders it online.
Customer leaves store.
If you doubt any part of this, ask yourself how much patience the average person has, then leverage that against the impulse of instant gratification and you'll understand how often this occurs. Many times, customers don't even enter the store, they just call in, and are price matching while on the phone.
Many gaming stores stock what they can. What they can stock is what they sell.
Many gaming stores can order product in. This takes maybe 2-5 days.
If you want a gaming store to carry a product, order it from them. They will not/ can not suddenly generate revenue out of nowhere to stock something they don't usually.
If you order it online, chances are that store will never carry it.
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Duncan_Idaho wrote: Actually, price-wars are quite often the reason there are no stores near you.
Can we post this on the entire internet? Because this is kind of the point.
So....speak with your wallet as long as your message is, "Here crummy LGS, keep taking my money even though you can't provide me the goods or services I want?"
Da Boss wrote: I guess it's just a case that FFG are so big now due to their recent successes that they get to call the shots, and have decided to support traditional retailers and their own direct sales over online discounters.
The postage thing sucks, for sure. I didn't know they charged above the market rate for postage. I wonder how much the free postage eats into the profits of the other discounters.
I think that's more likely down to them being acquired with the Asmodee Group (a rather large French company) who are also a big distributor in their own right. A change of culture perhaps?
Can't explain the postage thing though, even having had the rather painful experience of buying 3 Collectors Editions books all at once a few years ago (Ninety fething quid!!!!). I just write it off the same as the equally odd FW P&P, or more precisely find a way around it....
Even if I could order from FFG, I probably wouldn't because all I would be able to get are FFG goods. Whenever I buy online from MM or other online stores, I tend to buy a bit from different systems. Being forced to just buy FFG products and then ship them to singapore at the current postage rates would be prohibitive.
Neronoxx wrote: And it only takes one of these discounters to ruin it for a huge portion of stores. I would gladly pay full price, plus shipping for any game I wanted to play. If I can't afford it, that's no one else's problem but mine.
A bold claim regarding the perhaps only larger gaming company even more expensive than GW for what you usually get in the box (e.g. Armada, Imperial Assault), seeing most people consider GW's high prices as a big reason for the companies slow decline, or at least a big reason for the shrinking (not growing) of the gaming community for their games.
I am a bit surprised that it's even effecting their business model right now. From what I've seen, FFG can't keep product in stock. Which makes sense, with Armada and X-wing being 'gotta catch em all' affairs. Their prices definitely do present a barrier, which will only intensify with reduced discounts. I don't mind paying retail for ships I desire- as an Imperial player I buy most of them near release. But I'm fine waiting for the sets I'm less enthused about to go on discount. I probably wouldn't have purchased Rebel Aces if it hadn't hit the 50% mark. With how large the catalog is now, I suspect many sales for secondary figures is only happening because of discounts.
So....speak with your wallet as long as your message is, "Here crummy LGS, keep taking my money even though you can't provide me the goods or services I want?"
That is the opposite of what i wrote, but i'll clarify with you since it seems to be needed.
"If your local game store's service sucks, do not buy from them. Buy it somewhere else, preferably local because they (should) want your business, and accommodate you as the customer. It is unreasonable to expect a game store to carry every game in print, so inevitably they wont have something you want. Order it from them (if their service pleases you) and you will become a valued customer."
I'm not telling you to only buy from FLGS. I'm saying if you are at all concerned about where the industry is going, you should. If everyone bought their games off Amazon, do you think anyone would want to start a game store? Would they be able to?
The consensus seems to be if you don't use a FLGS, it's not your problem.That's an acceptable viewpoint. You aren't getting anything from them, so why should you spend money with them?
Please fully read this whitedragon, then read it again before responding.
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MacMuckles wrote: ....it is not the consumer's problem if an FLGS is incapable of competing with other businesses
Except it is, but it's not your problem if you lack the foresight to understand this.
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
Depends on perspective. GW does control their pricing, but now they have created new competitors who seem to be thriving when GW is surviving. They have lost customers...someone who stops buying is worse than someone who buys at a deep discount.
And let's be fair, the issue is the higher priced items where you can find them at 30% to 50% of retail not the $30 or less items.
Have you considered whether the issue is pricing not discounting? If a store has to discount by 30% to 50% to sell the product than it might be priced too high based on what the actual demand is at that price level.
That is a $19.99 item, listed for $10.78 (at time of posting.)
The issue is not pricing. The issue is extreme discounting. No store has to discount by 30% to 50% to sell a product. They do it to enact a 'price' war, and consolidate sales into their pocket, making little but hoping everyone will buy from them. It kills brick and mortar stores.
Simply selling games does not = support for the hobby
By that logic, a car dealership who only sells cars, is not supporting the car industry because he doesn't organise a Grand Prix or other races?
That's a horrible comparison. Driving is not by it's very nature and purpose a "social" activity. I don't believe stores are obligated to provide that social support but it's a horrible comparison nonetheless.
Board Games, and even this X-wing game also sell in the Big Box stores-- Target, Walmart etc-- in the USA. I wonder if those places had any influence on the decision?
I'm guessing the decision was made without their direct involvement. FFG isn't big enough to push a big box store around so they'll likely qualify for their super special double rainbow exception without ever knowing about the change in policy. They'll keep selling the box during sales/clearances oblivious to the restrictions being forced upon smaller stores who want to maintain their retailer discounts. Even if the small online seller organizes local demos, sponsors a league in store, and are the bestest B&M FLGS eVAR!, they're likely not going to qualify for an exemption and FFG is taking money out of their pockets by disallowing online sales.
I live 40 minutes (without traffic which is rare) from the FFG event center. I don't drive over there to purchase product. I'm not willing to eat 1.5-2 hours of my free time to go pick stuff up.
However, I've purchased massive quantities of Armada from MM. Because shipping is free, I get a solid discount, it enables me to have enough stuff to ensure I can provide for other people locally who might want to play, and I don't have to waste precious personal time to get it.
If I can't get it at a reasonable discount the actual cost of the game is silly high. I'm not willing to pay $40 for single mediocre painted figure and some cardboard. I bite the bullet at $25-$30. The problem is FFG's method of card distribution as well. It's not like buying a model and simply having one copy of the cards is enough for FFG. Nope, card for everytime you use it.
Meh, we'll see how it all shakes out. But if they cut MM, Warstore, and Coolstuff out then I'm probably out. And that's with a relatively thriving community locally for Armada.
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is one of my LGS. The owner is a donkey cave who has numerous times accused online retailers of stealing food from his kids mouths. Anything he says should be taken with some salt.
He posted this in the comments that I found odd. It's clearly possible but I'm surprised that there is such a huge walk in local board game scene that makes the category bigger than what is usually touted as the top seller for most stores. It's the internet and store owners aren't immune to the online phenomenon of significantly exaggerating to "prove" a potentially heated point that affects them personally which is why I ask.
This year my store sold 20,000 board games, generating more revenue than Magic: The Gathering. We hold board game night every week. We put board games in the front of the store and hand sell them to people who have never played them. It's nice to see publishers like Christian Petersen acknowledge our relevance, even if Internet customers don't see it.
I always used MM as my last resort if none of my FLGS had what I wanted. Sadly, a lot of times, they didn't. This could be because of there is no community for a game FFG, or any other company, produces. It could also be because of online retailers like MM.
I know from my own experience, when I started WM/H (yes I know not a FFG game but bare with me), there was no community here for it. One of the LGS wouldn't even let us play there because all they dealt in was 40k/WHFB. After a while though, said store gave in once I helped get a community of people together and they saw an increased interest.
There has to be a community for the stores to want to stock this stuff. I guess as well as it being something they don't compete with discount online retailers for. If there isn't the online retailers to compete with then what will convince FLGS that there is a community when there doesn't appear to be? I know there are actions they can take to create interest. But if there isn't the interest, then there isn't the interest.
On the one hand I agree that the retailer network of the FLGS in the US is, in the main, worth protecting. That people will go into a store, check out the item on the shelf. make sure they like it and then order it online from another vendor is undoubtedly a thing that happens regularly and in more than just gaming. That will only result in the closure of those stores and that's not really in anyone's best-interest.
On the other, I think this is the most bone-headed way to attempt to do it. Essentially, by trying to roll back the clock to...geez, the 1800s? Cutting off ALL online/mail-order sales (except for companies that are big enough to dictate their own terms, natch) isn't really protecting FLGS retail; it's driving customers away as you've limited availability down to a few outlets who now have less of an inclination to actually work to attract customers and generally engendering ill-will for what is likely to be viewed as an anti-consumer move. What happens when people order from Target instead of the FLGS because they can get their cat food and a new set of cutlery too and the FLGS can't compete on breadth of product?
Now, different terms for different channels referenced in the ICv2 quote does make a bit of sense. If you host # of events you get X trade rate, if your sales exceed a percentage via online then you get Y trade rate (where X < Y), etc. or even a simple fixed maximum discount which accomplishes a similar job and is much easier to enforce. That doesn't really seem to be what FFG is going for here though. Time will tell what the actual results are, of course.
On a separate but mildly related topic, it would be nice to see some FLGS get better at actually being a business wherein the goal is to encourage people to spend their money with you instead of somewhere else. Sure you can't compete on margins with someone who's using a greenhouse on his family farm and employing family members when you have a storefront with huge rent and a half-dozen employees, but there's a lot of room between "full MSRP" and "viable margin in certain cases" that stores, at least around here, don't seem to want to attempt to explore either (e.g. - discount for special/pre-orders paid up-front). Granted, if a major company is looking to enable the decision to not be customer-friendly, I suppose that would explain the reluctance.
Neronoxx wrote: A common complaint seems to be, "I live in a remote area with no FLGS, so why should I bother supporting them when I can get it cheaper?"
Sorry, but to be honest, how is that anyone else's problem but your own? Why do FLGS have to suffer online discounters because you live in the middle of nowhere? It's not a customer service issue if you restrict yourself to not being a customer.
So in short, you say "It's YOUR problem I live in the boonies, so i'm going to buy it from someone else." That is what i'm hearing, correct?
Supporting the hobby should be a gaming companies ultimate goal. Encouraging price wars between online stores and physical retailers IS NOT how you support the hobby OR the industry. People say FLGS have to change how they do business in order to survive, but those people don't know what it takes to run one, or even how they should change. It's all just baseless opinions founded on greed and selfishness.
Are cheap games easier to get into? Yeah, absolutely. Starting MTG costs roughly $15, and X-wing and other board games are anywhere from $30-60. But don't defend undercutters by claiming that these already inexpensive games should be cheaper because that's the only way you can afford it. That's called entitlement.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying discounters are bad. 10-20% off is fine, and stores make good enough money they could do that all year round. It's the 40-50% discounters that kill FLGS. And it only takes one of these discounters to ruin it for a huge portion of stores. I would gladly pay full price, plus shipping for any game I wanted to play. If I can't afford it, that's no one else's problem but mine.
No, what's being said is that we dirty gaming peasants with no access to the FLGS should go without or pay significantly higher prices so the elite FLGS nobility gets to keep their castles.
And if you believe for a second that this has any more to do with "protecting the FLGS" than it did when GW did it, you are painfully naive.
But, again, just another example of "I got mine, feth you".
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
Exactly. I've seen people lamenting a 40-minute trip as being too far out of the way. That's my trip to work every morning.
And after you commute 40 minutes each way, are you willing to throw on another 40 minutes each way for a weekday game night? Unless you live on the coast or a college town, odds are most people in the US play in their home or a friend's house. This is doubly true for board games (FFG's main business other than X-Wing). The LGS is nothing more for most of us than a place to pay extra. Plenty dont offer events. Its silly to expect us to subsidize your special snowflake gamestores we dont have access to.
BTW, I hope no one defending this has a Netflix, or Amazon Prime account, and instead rents from a mom and pop video store. You know, the glue that holds movie fandom together!
Neronoxx wrote: Honestly, it really just sounds like people are butt-hurt about this because they wont be able to buy board games and other games at cost.
I know for a fact that if a FLGS were to sell all of their board games at Amazon's prices, they would actually lose money.
Keep this up, and then they would go out of buisness.
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
People come into our store all the time, look at what we have, then buy it online cheaper. We do price matching, but some people just prefer to buy online, after coming into our store, taking up our time, and then leaving us with nothing. It makes you just want to dump the entire gaming aisle.
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
Indie retailers need to learn they're not entitled to anyone's money. Corporate retail may be soul-crushing work, but at least they beat one valuable lesson into you: if the customer doesn't buy, it's your fault as the person who was supposed to persuade them. Sure, there's always going to be a percentage of people who'll take advantage and still buy online at a discount, but for a retailer that puts in actual effort to add value sufficient to justify the increased costs they have to charge over online sellers, rather than just expecting gamers to empty wallets into their laps because the RRP is how much things are "supposed" to cost, that percentage is negligible.
You know what doesn't have that problem? Games Workshop.
Makes me wonder.
Depends on perspective. GW does control their pricing, but now they have created new competitors who seem to be thriving when GW is surviving. They have lost customers...someone who stops buying is worse than someone who buys at a deep discount.
And let's be fair, the issue is the higher priced items where you can find them at 30% to 50% of retail not the $30 or less items.
Have you considered whether the issue is pricing not discounting? If a store has to discount by 30% to 50% to sell the product than it might be priced too high based on what the actual demand is at that price level.
This is it for me. FFG games are priced far too high for what they are worth.
I support my FLGS. I buy more from them than anywhere online. But if it weren't for MM's Black Friday sales, there are lots of games I would simply never buy. I certainly wouldn't buy a big box FFG game any other way.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: odds are most people in the US play in their home or a friend's house.
This times a million. My nearest town is a whopping 4,400 people. We can't keep sandwich shops alive, let alone a hobby shop.
I learned X-Wing from a friend, at another friend's house. I have never attended, and have no interest in attending, any official or store event or game night. I suspect the majority of players are in the same camp as I am.
I learned X-Wing from a friend, at another friend's house. I have never attended, and have no interest in attending, any official or store event or game night. I suspect the majority of players are in the same camp as I am.
I picked it up more or less on a whim after a friend told me about it. Mostly I have ordered online, just out of ease of doing it with a healthy side of "I have lots of hobbies so saving some money here or there help finance all of them."
I have yet to play in store, but am considering it. Most of my play time comes from having friends over and busting out the minis in the game room.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
Exactly. I've seen people lamenting a 40-minute trip as being too far out of the way. That's my trip to work every morning.
And after you commute 40 minutes each way, are you willing to throw on another 40 minutes each way for a weekday game night? Unless you live on the coast or a college town, odds are most people in the US play in their home or a friend's house. This is doubly true for board games (FFG's main business other than X-Wing). The LGS is nothing more for most of us than a place to pay extra. Plenty dont offer events. Its silly to expect us to subsidize your special snowflake gamestores we dont have access to.
BTW, I hope no one defending this has a Netflix, or Amazon Prime account, and instead rents from a mom and pop video store. You know, the glue that holds movie fandom together!
I'm on your side dude, I'm agreeing with Insaniak's point that gamers don't need a 6 hour round trip to consider a game store to be not local, even 40 minutes is too long for some folk.
Alex C wrote: odds are most people in the US play in their home or a friend's house.
This times a million. My nearest town is a whopping 4,400 people. We can't keep sandwich shops alive, let alone a hobby shop.
I learned X-Wing from a friend, at another friend's house. I have never attended, and have no interest in attending, any official or store event or game night. I suspect the majority of players are in the same camp as I am.
I didn't say that, might want to fix your quoting.
If this is supposed to help FLGSs, it's not even going to work. Barnes and Noble routinely has 20% off coupons and carries FFG stuff, including X-Wing. This is not going to make people pay full retail.
Alex C wrote: I'm on your side dude, I'm agreeing with Insaniak's point that gamers don't need a 6 hour round trip to consider a game store to be not local, even 40 minutes is too long for some folk.
Guys, I won't even drive 40 minutes for an all-nude strip club, so 40 minutes is way to far to hang out for a gamer sausagefest. If it's for buying, try 10 minutes out of my way, or I don't even bother.
As I said earlier, I live in the middle of nowhere, and my nearest FLGS/Games Workshop is miles away in a large city, with thousands of potential customers.
The idea that people like me, buying online now and again, will sink a FLGS surrounded by thousands of people, is ludicrous.
If a game store can't survive in a half-decent sized city, then that's down to poor management.
Peregrine wrote: I suspect that people who live more three hours from their closest store are a very small minority in the US..
I suspect that people would need significant;y less than 3 hours travel each way before they consider a store to be too far away to be worth the bother.
Exactly. I've seen people lamenting a 40-minute trip as being too far out of the way. That's my trip to work every morning.
And after you commute 40 minutes each way, are you willing to throw on another 40 minutes each way for a weekday game night? Unless you live on the coast or a college town, odds are most people in the US play in their home or a friend's house. This is doubly true for board games (FFG's main business other than X-Wing). The LGS is nothing more for most of us than a place to pay extra. Plenty dont offer events. Its silly to expect us to subsidize your special snowflake gamestores we dont have access to.
BTW, I hope no one defending this has a Netflix, or Amazon Prime account, and instead rents from a mom and pop video store. You know, the glue that holds movie fandom together!
I'm on your side dude, I'm agreeing with Insaniak's point that gamers don't need a 6 hour round trip to consider a game store to be not local, even 40 minutes is too long for some folk.
[
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying 40 mins wasnt bad because it was just equal to your commute! I might do that for a special event, but just to game on a weeknight with some randos is a bit of a stretch.
Really, FFG should be glad people are still buying product, and not just using vasaal.
That said, it seems like they left this open to allow exemptions for miniature market and the warstore (both of which are physical stores) due to the volume exemption (because I really dont think you want to piss them off). So basically it just screws the smaller online stores. WTG FFG!
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
Since it sounds like you have a game store, I'd expect you to know the difference between revenues and capital. That you don't is a bit worrisome.
No, what's being said is that we dirty gaming peasants with no access to the FLGS should go without or pay significantly higher prices so the elite FLGS nobility gets to keep their castles.
And if you believe for a second that this has any more to do with "protecting the FLGS" than it did when GW did it, you are painfully naive.
But, again, just another example of "I got mine, feth you".
~Eric
Let's take a step back and realize that this is about a gaming product that isn't exactly collectible.
You live outside of the main economic centers that fuel an industry? Be prepared to have to modify your spending habits in consequence. That's what I did for 20 years when I lived in the middle of nowhere, that's what everyone does.
Painting yourself as a victim only shows how unreasonnable your whole approach of the situation really is.
The LGS industry distribution practices are insanely out of sync from the reality of consummers purchasing practices. This regulation can only end up lowering the huge risks taken by people who invest in the least profitable part of this industry, LGS owners.
You do realize you could live in a decently sized town and not have a game store that carries FFG stuff right? Or even a game store at all?
Or live in a series of medium sized towns that have a single game store but because you're on one end of that series it's 40 minutes to an hour drive away with no traffic.
Let's take a step back and realize that this is about a gaming product that isn't exactly collectible.
You live outside of the main economic centers that fuel an industry? Be prepared to have to modify your spending habits in consequence. That's what I did for 20 years when I lived in the middle of nowhere, that's what everyone does.
Painting yourself as a victim only shows how unreasonnable your whole approach of the situation really is.
The LGS industry distribution practices are insanely out of sync from the reality of consummers purchasing practices. This regulation can only end up lowering the huge risks taken by people who invest in the least profitable part of this industry, LGS owners.
You argument would have been reasonable 20 years ago, before the insane rise of internet shopping. But this is 2015, and they're trying to retract something that already exists.
As to supporting LGS owners, essentially you are suggesting that if I want to play X-Wing, I either drive several hours out of my way for a discount, or I subsidize the existence of shops that I will never even see. Both are lunacy.
Hulksmash wrote: You do realize you could live in a decently sized town and not have a game store that carries FFG stuff right? Or even a game store at all?
Or live in a series of medium sized towns that have a single game store but because you're on one end of that series it's 40 minutes to an hour drive away with no traffic.
I grew up in Québec City. Everywhere and everything is at least a 45 minutes bus drive away, when not worse. I don't see the problem.
FFG's market penetration is awesome. There are a few large-surface librairies carrying their games here.
Seriously, are FFG games so expensive that paying retail will drive you away? Netrunner releases 6x 20$ data packs a year, plus the mandatory expansion. That is the most collectible of their games, the one you don't want to miss upon release, and retail price still amounts to walking money.
Otherwise, yes, drive 45 minutes to a store and buy the game you really want, what, once every 2-3 months? Is that seriously such a hassle? Or any different from any other purchases you might have when you live in a hole?
You argument would have been reasonable 20 years ago, before the insane rise of internet shopping. But this is 2015, and they're trying to retract something that already exists.
Internet discounters game the already prohibitive distribution practices of the industry. You may feel entitled to this advantageous mode of purchase, now that it exists, but the truth is that you simply aren't, and that the game producer may very well decides to alter distribution channels. That it already exists doesn't mean it should exist the way it does now.
streamdragon wrote: As to supporting LGS owners, essentially you are suggesting that if I want to play X-Wing, I either drive several hours out of my way for a discount, or I subsidize the existence of shops that I will never even see. Both are lunacy.
You aren't entitled to your discount. That you even can suggest otherwise shows how warped your view of consumers-producers relations are.
And here everyone was hoping that Asmondee would also buy GW because they wouldn't pull the stupid crap GW pulls. This is harsher than anything GW has pulled. At least you can still phone up/email an online store and order stuff at a discount. Asmondee won't even allow that.
What age were you when you lived in a place that 45 minutes was acceptable each way to pick up hobby supplies/games? And when was this? As was previously mentioned internet shopping is a thing. My gaming/out time away from the wife and kids is limited. I'm not wasting a significant amount of that. It's really that simple.
I grew up in Ventura County, it's the county north of Los Angeles county where the "small" towns still have 100k+ populations. I understand needing to drive to get to things and timing issues. I just don't have the kind of time I did back then.
As for your example it's not the card gamers that are going to have the issue. They can do exactly as you say. But if you like playing X-wing, Armada, or board games you're experiencing a significant mark up while also eating into your free time. In other words, it won't be worth it for many.
My local Games shop is a 40 minute drive away and I live in the third largest city in the UK. I've been to it twice.
This has no real affect on me, the only FFG products I have any interest in are their RPGS and unless they update Rogue Trader I'm not likely to be buying anything from them.
That being said though draconian and anti consumer terms of service such as these are a very dangerous thing to introduce. As it will certainly annoy customers. Battlefront and it's 10% max discount was the final straw for me. Flames of war used to be my number 1 game, I had 6 different 2k armies, after their handling of Maelstrom though I never bought anything from them again. There were multiple reasons for this but that incident was the catalyst.
For me, it must makes it all that much less likely I buy anything with a FFG logo on it ever again.
I think it plays out with ever more people buying direct from the publisher via KS, a la CMoN. Why go through his hassle, when, for $100-$150, you get all the game you could possibly ever need shipped direct to your door?
Hulksmash wrote: What age were you when you lived in a place that 45 minutes was acceptable each way to pick up hobby supplies/games? And when was this? As was previously mentioned internet shopping is a thing. My gaming/out time away from the wife and kids is limited. I'm not wasting a significant amount of that. It's really that simple.
If I still lived in Québec City, it would still be the same. The city is just built that way.
Hulksmash wrote: As for your example it's not the card gamers that are going to have the issue. They can do exactly as you say. But if you like playing X-wing, Armada, or board games you're experiencing a significant mark up while also eating into your free time. In other words, it won't be worth it for many.
I guess I don't know enough about how people spend on X-Wing and Armada, I've only invested 45-50$ in X-Wing and only play at home. I'm under the impression that the fact that both games require a significantly smaller investment than other wargames combined with the fact that releases are announced months in advance should allow people to deal relatively well with that lost discount.
Otherwise, yes, drive 45 minutes to a store and buy the game you really want, what, once every 2-3 months? Is that seriously such a hassle? Or any different from any other purchases you might have when you live in a hole?
It is when you think people are going to a store once every 2-3 months.
How about making a 40 minute drive back and forth once a week?
That's much more effort and money required then sitting on a bus 4-6 times in a year.
Board Games, and even this X-wing game also sell in the Big Box stores-- Target, Walmart etc-- in the USA. I wonder if those places had any influence on the decision?
I'm guessing the decision was made without their direct involvement. FFG isn't big enough to push a big box store around so they'll likely qualify for their super special double rainbow exception without ever knowing about the change in policy. They'll keep selling the box during sales/clearances oblivious to the restrictions being forced upon smaller stores who want to maintain their retailer discounts. Even if the small online seller organizes local demos, sponsors a league in store, and are the bestest B&M FLGS eVAR!, they're likely not going to qualify for an exemption and FFG is taking money out of their pockets by disallowing online sales.
I meant the other way around, that the Big Box stores may be pressuring Asmodee/FFG to do this as a condition of stocking the games. I should have been clearer about that.
A lot of interesting bloggers are *donkey caves*, just like interesting newspaper columnists were, back in the day... It is that *cave-ness* that motivates them to write interesting things. IMHO.
Guys, I won't even drive 40 minutes for an all-nude strip club
No. You don't support your FLANSC because you get what they offer cheaper/for free online! Do you realise that why there isn't one in your neighbourhood with good service and special events is because of this attitude?
So, in reading this thread, it seems like I'll no longer be able to buy FFG products online at a ~20% discount. The practical effect is that the effective market price of FFG products is going up by 25% ($80 to $100, for example).
I was planning on starting Armada, but don't know that I want to absorb an arbitrary 25% price increase.
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
Since it sounds like you have a game store, I'd expect you to know the difference between revenues and capital. That you don't is a bit worrisome.
It was late, and i was tired. Still, to make assumptions on one's knowledge from a single word is quite pathetic. I'll wager you are one of those individuals often called, "a know it all."
But I'll humour you.
I'll assume you are referring to Financial Capital, rather than any of its other forms or ways, which would be a more accurate term of Amazons financial gain.
However, as I can not make assumptions to your intelligence, I'll put this into words I believe you'll understand.
Neronoxx wrote: Why do FLGS have to suffer online discounters because you live in the middle of nowhere?
Because it's 2015, and internet shopping is a thing?
It's not a customer service issue if you restrict yourself to not being a customer.
Yes, see... that's pretty much the point.
People who are not customers of your store are not obliged to financially support your chosen outdated business model.
So in short, you say "It's YOUR problem I live in the boonies, so i'm going to buy it from someone else." That is what i'm hearing, correct?
No. Well, that might be what you're hearing, but it's not what people are saying.
What is being said is that restricting sales to physical stores sucks for those who don't live near physical stores. That's not your problem. It's a problem, if a company chooses to restrict sales of its product in such a fashion.
Your problem is that you want people to come into your store to buy product. The long-distance customer's problem is that they don't want to, or can't.
The solution to both of those problems is to make the product available through as many different sales channels as can support it.
People say FLGS have to change how they do business in order to survive, but those people don't know what it takes to run one, or even how they should change. .
It's not necessary for someone to know what it takes to run a games store to figure out that if the current business model isn't sustainable then a new business model is required.
It seems to me that this move by Asmodee is similar to the music industry trying to curtail ticket scalpers. Asmodee sees some e-tailers as parasitic intermediaries who make their money buying FFG products wholesale and selling them at discounted retail prices. Since FFG has their own web store Asmodee would rather see consumers who are only online buyers to buy direct from FFG and pay MSRP for the products. Asmodee still wants to make money selling through distributors and getting the market exposure and penetration from being present in brick and mortar stores so they don't mind in store discounts.
Just like how concert promoters don't like seeing scalpers making profits from reselling tickets at higher prices Asmodee doesn't want online resellers making money that they feel they should make instead. The benefit of this new policy is that more online sales will go through their own web store, and their bigger retail partners like Target. Increased sales from FFG's web store should mean more profit than selling to online resellers.
The negatives of this new policy is that it increases the cost and time spent on purchases for the customers that have been using the online discount resellers. Increasing costs and time will likely cause some portion of their customer base to buy less. If it's easy and cheap to buy from online resellers it's easier for customers to impulse buy every new release or a lot of new releases. Increasing the costs in time and money to get new releases will force customers to decide just how badly they want to buy each new release and will likely pass on purchases that would have been made if the online discounters were still a viable option.
My issue with the policy is that it strikes me as Asmodee cutting off its nose to spite its face. I can understand the frustration with online discounters piggy backing on FFG to make money but ultimately FFG and Asmodee aren't harmed by those companies. Asmodee makes money when they sell products to distributors at wholesale prices. Whether the products go to a LGS' shelf or a online discounter's warehouse Asmodee made money off selling those products through distributors. If the products Asmodee sells to distributors are sold to consumers, regardless of which retailers consumers purchase them from, Asmodee benefits from those sales by having their products sold and used in games that build community support for more sales of more products.
To me, this new policy has very little to do with protecting brick and mortar stores, although that's a nice PR spin, and everything to do with Asmodee trying to wring as much profit as possible from online sales.
I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to where the difference between an online store and the LGS around here lies.
Not a single one of these provides any kind of support for FFG products apart from selling them. Not even designated tables, since at best they have a bunch of tables for wargaming and a few flat tables that are reserved for MtG and YGO.
Here in the SF Bay Area, we have three FLGS's in one town, but only one town -- because the town supports warehouses and other cities are too expensive for a game store to operate in. So the problem for these stores, at least, isn't online competition, it's the cost of living, so to speak, for the business.
So if Asmodee is willing to pay for my FLGS's electrity bill...
I meant the other way around, that the Big Box stores may be pressuring Asmodee/FFG to do this as a condition of stocking the games. I should have been clearer about that.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm reading the terms and can't find how Target, Walmart, and Amazon (non-third parties) wouldn't be able to sell games. Specifically, "To qualify as an online merchant, you will need to contribute either significant scale, unique service, or other exceptional differentiation." The terms aren't exactly easy to read, but my impression is that that the publisher's "exceptions" pretty much give them enough loopholes to select whom they want as a retailer offering a discount.
Anyone remember Mayfair? They're best known for their Catan games, and they did this *years* ago. And, yes, their games are showing up at Target and Walmart (?). Game publishers *have* wanted to penetrate into the mass-market big box stores for years, so Asmodee may be pulling a Mayfair. OTOH, This is not the only way to do this. SJG, for example, released a version of Munchkin that was only available at Target and Walmart (?). WotC's Arena of the Planewalker and HeroScape have Walmart-exclusive editions. Northstar Game's "Say Anything" can still be bought online at a deep discount.
You argument would have been reasonable 20 years ago, before the insane rise of internet shopping. But this is 2015, and they're trying to retract something that already exists.
Internet discounters game the already prohibitive distribution practices of the industry. You may feel entitled to this advantageous mode of purchase, now that it exists, but the truth is that you simply aren't, and that the game producer may very well decides to alter distribution channels. That it already exists doesn't mean it should exist the way it does now.
streamdragon wrote: As to supporting LGS owners, essentially you are suggesting that if I want to play X-Wing, I either drive several hours out of my way for a discount, or I subsidize the existence of shops that I will never even see. Both are lunacy.
You aren't entitled to your discount. That you even can suggest otherwise shows how warped your view of consumers-producers relations are.
How is Miniature Market "gaming the already prohibitive distribution practices of the industry"? They have a physical storefront, sure, but also sell online to people (like myself) who are nowhere near that front. How is any online store that is purchasing their stock FROMFFG?
As to "entitlement', I said nothing about it. I'm suggesting there is nothing wrong with the status quo, because prior to Asmodee sticking it's schwanz into things, FFG obviously didn't have an issue with online retailers. You're the entitled one if you think everyone without a LGS should have to pay more, simply to support some brick and mortar store that they'll like never see, or even know exists.
It has nothing at all to do with greed, especially in this case. Remember that, unlike GW, FFG does not sell directly to customers*. They're selling their products at the same price whether it's an online discount seller or a physical retail store buying them. The actual reason for this policy is that FFG recognizes the importance of physical stores in marketing and supporting their products. An online discount store is cheaper, but doesn't host tournaments, persuade new customers to buy stuff, put up a rack of games in a prominent location, etc. And if the online discount stores are free to undercut the people who are doing all the promotion and support those stores have much less incentive to stock FFG products. The real greed here is the customers who care more about saving 10% today than having a game to play in the future.
Yeah, well. Neither does any Friendly "local" game store within a 50 mile radius of me- all two of them, one of which carries less than Barnes and Noble.
Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
Since it sounds like you have a game store, I'd expect you to know the difference between revenues and capital. That you don't is a bit worrisome.
It was late, and i was tired. Still, to make assumptions on one's knowledge from a single word is quite pathetic. I'll wager you are one of those individuals often called, "a know it all."
Not at all. Just someone who prefers people use terms correctly so I can follow what the feth they're talking about.
I'll humor you. You are upset that people may purchase products online and you see it as hurting your business and the business of fellow LGS. I agree it's bad form for people to walk in, kick the tires of a product, then leave and buy online. I try not to do that, whether it's games, clothing/shoes or other merchandise. For years I barely set foot in any LGS, even though there were some in the 30-minute range from me. They didn't offer me anything, 30-minutes was a significant drive just to browse, and my board game group met in someone's house. On the occasions I did go in to a store and they didn't have what I wanted in stock, I felt no obligation to put in an order, wait and make another trip. I wouldn't do that at a grocery store or department store, so why would I do it at a gaming store? If they did have something I wanted, then I'd pick it up.
Recently, I've started table top miniature gaming with some other locals and we have met for games at LGS. Now I try to buy something regularly and I am willing to put in a special order, since I know I'll be back within a couple of weeks for gaming. See how it works? The store is now providing me a service and I'm happy to buy from them.
Well these seem to be the significant sections of the clarification
In the future, will I be able to find products from Asmodee North America (i.e. products from Asmodee Editions, Fantasy Flight Games, or Days of Wonder) online? We are keenly aware and we understand that not all consumers have access to, or that some prefer not to take advantage of, specialty retail game stores. Online shopping is a modern and convenient method of shopping, and Asmodee is committed to keeping this channel a viable and high-quality method of product delivery to consumers
We intend to work with a number of exceptional authorized online dealers. We are confident that consumers will easily be able to find and acquire our products from a variety of online outlets.
no surprise there, they'd already said they'd be working with 'exceptional' online sellers
Some brick-and-mortar specialty retailers also sell online, how will this affect them? We recognize that these new policies come with implications for some retailers. One such change will be that authorized specialty retailers will agree not to sell Asmodee North America products online. That said, we hope the end result, i.e. enabling us to support them relative to other defined channels, will be a significant net improvement for specialty retailers overall.
If your favoured store used to sell online it seems likely they'll have to stop.... but they hope the stores revenue will hold up by more instore sales
How will this affect mass market outlets, such a Amazon, Target, or Barnes and Noble? We consider the mass/broad market to be its own unique channel of sale, one we want to be successful in its own right alongside our other successful channels of sale.
There's no way we're prepared to loose out on these big volume sellers so they're fine and can carry on undercutting the FLGS we claim this policy will help out (I should think Amazon will basicially be that alone, rather than including marketplace sellers like now)
Many specialty retailers have in-store loyalty or volume discounts, and many online dealers discount their product. In the new policies taking effect on April 1st, 2016, will you institute or impose official price floors or "minimum advertised price" policies on your authorized retailers?
No.
We're not going to impose a floor price (as we know Amazon, B&N, Target etc wouldn't stand for it, but just perhaps if you're a small speciality store who we carry on supplying for online sales because of your 'exception' nature, we might perhaps review that and since you're no longer special stop you selling online
but overall less worrying than the original statement, I think prices are going up a bit, and availability will fall, but not to the extent the original statement seemed to suggest
The sky hasn't fallen, but a fair few heavy clouds certainly have
Assuming that CSI and MM are "exceptional", this policy seems to basically just be that small stores aren't allowed to sell online. It's kind of strange.
Prestor Jon wrote: It seems to me that this move by Asmodee is similar to the music industry trying to curtail ticket scalpers. Asmodee sees some e-tailers as parasitic intermediaries who make their money buying FFG products wholesale and selling them at discounted retail prices. Since FFG has their own web store Asmodee would rather see consumers who are only online buyers to buy direct from FFG and pay MSRP for the products. Asmodee still wants to make money selling through distributors and getting the market exposure and penetration from being present in brick and mortar stores so they don't mind in store discounts.
Just like how concert promoters don't like seeing scalpers making profits from reselling tickets at higher prices Asmodee doesn't want online resellers making money that they feel they should make instead. The benefit of this new policy is that more online sales will go through their own web store, and their bigger retail partners like Target. Increased sales from FFG's web store should mean more profit than selling to online resellers.
The negatives of this new policy is that it increases the cost and time spent on purchases for the customers that have been using the online discount resellers. Increasing costs and time will likely cause some portion of their customer base to buy less. If it's easy and cheap to buy from online resellers it's easier for customers to impulse buy every new release or a lot of new releases. Increasing the costs in time and money to get new releases will force customers to decide just how badly they want to buy each new release and will likely pass on purchases that would have been made if the online discounters were still a viable option.
My issue with the policy is that it strikes me as Asmodee cutting off its nose to spite its face. I can understand the frustration with online discounters piggy backing on FFG to make money but ultimately FFG and Asmodee aren't harmed by those companies. Asmodee makes money when they sell products to distributors at wholesale prices. Whether the products go to a LGS' shelf or a online discounter's warehouse Asmodee made money off selling those products through distributors. If the products Asmodee sells to distributors are sold to consumers, regardless of which retailers consumers purchase them from, Asmodee benefits from those sales by having their products sold and used in games that build community support for more sales of more products.
To me, this new policy has very little to do with protecting brick and mortar stores, although that's a nice PR spin, and everything to do with Asmodee trying to wring as much profit as possible from online sales.
Not strange at all. If you want to sell at Walmart, Target, or B&N, you do what they say. These Big Box stores aren't interested in customers buying from their onilne competitors, so demand exclusive sales of your product. They're already doing this with Mayfair Games, and WotC and SJG have had editions of their HeroScape, Munchkin, and Duel of the Planeswalkers available only at a Big Box store.
I'm thinking that this policy is meant to shut down MM, CSI, and Cardhaus. The "support your FLGS" is just a secondary effect slash smokescreen of Big Box telling a small games publisher to jump how high and said publisher saying, yes sir. It's an irritating evolution of the hobby game market as it attempts to go mainstream -- and, thankfully, not all publishers are going in this direction.
Somehow, I think the President of Asmodee's going to peel off his face mask and we'll see it's Jay Tummelson all along!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: There's no way we're prepared to loose out on these big volume sellers so they're fine and can carry on undercutting the FLGS we claim this policy will help out (I should think Amazon will basicially be that alone, rather than including marketplace sellers like now)
On the other hand those high-volume "mainstream" stores will have less incentive to offer significant discounts if they're the only online stores, so we might expect to see the discount drop to something closer to the 10-20% that an average FLGS offers. Closing the gap makes it easier for the physical store to compete.
TheWaspinator wrote: Assuming that CSI and MM are "exceptional", this policy seems to basically just be that small stores aren't allowed to sell online. It's kind of strange.
Yes, because the mom and pop stores that also happen to sell online at a reasonable discount of 10-20% are the ones that are slitting the throats of their fellow FLGS... not amazon on a daily basis at 30-40% off with free shipping or MM during 50% off sales (and routine 33% off prices). It's clearly the little guys that typically offer lesser discounts and get smaller sales volumes that are the easiest targets to push around.. I mean impediment to other little guys. This is games industry hypocrisy at its finest and most blatant.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: There's no way we're prepared to loose out on these big volume sellers so they're fine and can carry on undercutting the FLGS we claim this policy will help out (I should think Amazon will basicially be that alone, rather than including marketplace sellers like now)
On the other hand those high-volume "mainstream" stores will have less incentive to offer significant discounts if they're the only online stores, so we might expect to see the discount drop to something closer to the 10-20% that an average FLGS offers. Closing the gap makes it easier for the physical store to compete.
The high volume large discount retailers compete largely with each other to get to the bottom tolerable price, not with the local stores that just happen to sell online that this new policy both explicitly targets yet is meant to somehow protect. Amazon and Miniature Market will both be unaffected and I don't think the prices on either will change because they'll still be competing with each other in a race to the bottom. The gap will remain the same because your FLGS isn't competing with Jimbo's Hobby games in Idaho that offers 10-20% off; discount shoppers will still go to the big known names that offer the biggest discounts and avoid your FLGS. FFG is picking on the little guys who sell online because they can, not because they're the real problem. This is of course dependant on the bigger fish in the small hobby pond like Warstore and MM getting double super secret exceptional status. If they don't but B&N/Amazon/Target/etc get to do whatever they want and FFG just screwed over the entire actual hobby market, that would be even worse for all involved.
Please note that I'm not trying to complain about or demonize any big market seller but rather pointing out that *IF* there is actually a problem then this new policy is *NOT* addressing the actual issue. If they really wanted to help FLGS by keeping margins higher, they'd cap online discounts FOR EVERYONE with no exceptions including Amazon, Target, B&N, and the bigger fish in the hobby pond like Warstore and MM. If Amazon or Target violated their 20% or whatever max discount, they'd have to cut them off permanently. Of course they won't do that because they don't want to risk the sales (and the loss of X-wing won't affect amazon's bottom line regardless in any meaningful way). They can however bully small retailers though who can't afford to fight back so have chosen to do so laughably under the guise of protecting the same little guys.
Peregrine wrote: On the other hand those high-volume "mainstream" stores will have less incentive to offer significant discounts if they're the only online stores, so we might expect to see the discount drop to something closer to the 10-20% that an average FLGS offers. Closing the gap makes it easier for the physical store to compete.
Well, although a quick scan of Amazon's prices for Catan show a minimal discount, a friend of mine *was* able to pick up Mayfair's Star Trek game for $11 at Target, a definite savings over the $35 price tag! Not much preservation of value, there!
I think Big Box stores are very much interested in moving product at prices consumers want. The BGG Hot Deals forum regularly mentions Target and Amazon for game discounts.
One thought, though, is that Mayfair Games has very few games in their product line, primarily Catan franchise games. Perhaps a consequence of Big Box sales is that Big Boxes will only carry a few of your products, causing you to focus on only one product line. To some extent, this is happening naturally with Steve Jackson Games with their Munchkin line (which also has (had?) exclusivity at Target with Munchkin: Legends). Also, distributors already do this with the conventional distributor-retail chain, in that they do not carry all lines a manufacturer makes.
Still one BGG'er said that market forces eventually overrule company policies, and WotC and WizKids had policies like this in the past. The players change, but the customers eventually get what they want.
Korraz wrote: I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to where the difference between an online store and the LGS around here lies.
Not a single one of these provides any kind of support for FFG products apart from selling them. Not even designated tables, since at best they have a bunch of tables for wargaming and a few flat tables that are reserved for MtG and YGO.
You know there is a social part to gaming, right? meeting like minded people, getting information and people views on games, and most stores i went to don't mind which games you played as long as you bought something there once in a while.
ced1106 wrote: Well, although a quick scan of Amazon's prices for Catan show a minimal discount, a friend of mine *was* able to pick up Mayfair's Star Trek game for $11 at Target, a definite savings over the $35 price tag! Not much preservation of value, there!
I suspect that was a case of a one-time sale (for example, no longer stocking the game and trying to clear out the remaining inventory) rather than a regular price.
Not inherently. But, like it or not, that's how it works in the US.
The fact that it currently works that way doesn't inherently make it something that is worth preserving. If more and more customers are doing it a different way, then sooner or later it becomes time to stop and have a long hard look at whether or not your current business model needs to change to match customers' current expectations.
The internet is a thing now. It's not going away. As a result, it's entirely possible that the days of US stores also being places to hang out and play games are numbered. That won't necessarily be the death-knell of gaming, as evidenced by most of the rest of the world where stores are not, and have never been, the place where most people play their games.
On the other hand those high-volume "mainstream" stores will have less incentive to offer significant discounts if they're the only online stores, so we might expect to see the discount drop to something closer to the 10-20% that an average FLGS offers. Closing the gap makes it easier for the physical store to compete.
You guys are damn lucky if you have a FLGS that sells at any discount whatsoever. My favorite store, Discount Hobby, went out of business just after 3rd edition of 40K and everything local since has been full price.
Not inherently. But, like it or not, that's how it works in the US.
Not where I play in the US. Hint: its not in a store.
So, this is kind of like GW, except its not. Because its FFG.
I'll be interested in how this actually pans out, and how it affects my fairly large gaming group that plays Armada and X-wing (and none of us plays in a store).
streamdragon wrote: except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
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insaniak wrote: The fact that it currently works that way doesn't inherently make it something that is worth preserving. If more and more customers are doing it a different way, then sooner or later it becomes time to stop and have a long hard look at whether or not your current business model needs to change to match customers' current expectations.
The internet is a thing now. It's not going away. As a result, it's entirely possible that the days of US stores also being places to hang out and play games are numbered. That won't necessarily be the death-knell of gaming, as evidenced by most of the rest of the world where stores are not, and have never been, the place where most people play their games.
Sure, it can change, but we have to be realistic about this: it's not how things work right now, and it's uncertain if or how things might change in the future. And we really have to ask which is more likely here:
1) The US is moving to a "buy online, play at a gaming club" kind of community and business model where physical stores are just a place to pick up a box of something if it's convenient and in-store gaming is limited to occasional demo games of a new product.
or
2) Stores are important and will continue to be important for the foreseeable future, and this is just a case of short-sighted customers chasing the lowest possible prices no matter how much it hurts them in the long run.
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
What ypu do is find the gaming hobby for yourself, and then spend nearly 20 years mostly modelling/painting and rarely playing, and buying, painting, and providing both sides so you can cajole your close buddies and later your wife into gaming with you when you can, and lamenting how it's hard to find a gaming group firmly in the middle of BFE, Michigan.
How much do these huge online discounts end up being anyway? (Including taxes etc on the final price).
Unless it's say, a once or twice a year sale in the UK (EG, Armada core set at 52% RRP on Amazon last week) or an inventory sell off, I usually don't see more than, say, a 15% discount at the absolute most in the UK.
And if they are particularly low, it's either a pre-order incentive, or, like in Amazon's case, a Loss Leader situation of very select products (EG the core set game of Armada or X-Wing), in which case, they probably aren't making money from it and are banking on future sales of the expansions.
streamdragon wrote: except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
You realize that gamers aren't exclusively located in stores, right? We do leave the store occasionally in most cases. You can meet gamers online on places like Dakka after a simple google search or just talk geek with a coworker who introduces you to gaming or go to a scifi con that happens to have a gaming room. I got into gaming in high school when I saw someone reading a Robotech RPG book in the aisle next to me and mentioned that I was a fan of the cartoon years earlier. I didn't play in a games store for almost a decade after that and the only store I had within bicycle riding distance for years was a crowded mall novelty store with a single 6ft rack of RPG titles and a 2ft rack of minis. They had more space devoted to lava lamps then all tabletop gaming combined.
Sure, it can change, but we have to be realistic about this: it's not how things work right now, and it's uncertain if or how things might change in the future. And we really have to ask which is more likely here:
1) The US is moving to a "buy online, play at a gaming club" kind of community and business model where physical stores are just a place to pick up a box of something if it's convenient and in-store gaming is limited to occasional demo games of a new product.
or
2) Stores are important and will continue to be important for the foreseeable future, and this is just a case of short-sighted customers chasing the lowest possible prices no matter how much it hurts them in the long run.
I agree with you in principle and firmly am a proponent of buying the games where you play those games as a matter of course but this policy does very little to encourage that. The folks looking for the biggest discounts won't have to change a thing as apparently every big box store and amazon get an automatic pass and likely the biggest hobby specific online retailers will get one as well. This punishes the mid to small level sellers that are simply the easiest to boss around, not the folks causing the most "problems".
This is the online retailer equivalent of an area with a crime rate perceived as too high... so the government decides to up the penalty for easy to catch misdemeanors to the death penalty while simultaneously deciding that felonies are too hard to prosecute so they get a pass.
Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.
AegisGrimm wrote: Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.
When I looked earlier today, their normal everyday xwing discount was pretty much 33% across the board ($45 items for just under 30, $15 for under 10, etc). That beats anything I've ever seen from a mom and pop online retailer and is pretty much around what amazon gives. They also do sales (both general and daily single item) of 50% a couple of times a year (most recently last month for Black Friday).
streamdragon wrote: except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
My group had one guy get into it after seeing Fantasy Flight had picked up the license for Star Wars when WotC let it lapse. From there, he showed the rest of us the game. From there, I play at various friends' houses, and talk about it almost exclusively online in forums like this one. I saw my first game via TableTop, the Wil Weaton Youtube show (where they play parts of the game wrong). At no point was anyone required to set foot inside a hobby shop. The last time I was even in a hobby shop was back in July when a friend visited from out of town and we decided to go over old stomping grounds. Prior to that, I hadn't been to that store in at least 15 years. (in fact they had moved locations twice since I had been there, but that's beside the point)
I don't think "friends" is such an odd answer, especially in any group that has been gaming together for years. Did someone possibly see/learn about it in an FLGS to start the whole thing? Sure. Does that FLGS get credit for showing everyone that Player 0 teaches? Not in the slightest. I learned about Fantasy Flight's board games through going to their site or sites like BGG or this one.
I seriously don't understand how in the internet age, gaming is some sort of holy relic, knowledge of which is only bestowed upon mere mortals in some sacred brick and mortar shrine. The idea that everyone, or even most people, play in game stores seems ludicrous to me, not because I haven't had a FLGS for a long time, but because I can't imagine that most people like to get together with random strangers to play games that they could play with friends in the comfort of someone's home. A good number of the games I doubt would even be available in a regular hobby shop. Do places regularly stock Flying Frog Productions games? Or indie games like Tokaido or "On Her Majesty's Service: World of Smog"?
warboss wrote: You realize that gamers aren't exclusively located in stores, right? We do leave the store occasionally in most cases. You can meet gamers online on places like Dakka after a simple google search or just talk geek with a coworker who introduces you to gaming or go to a scifi con that happens to have a gaming room. I got into gaming in high school when I saw someone reading a Robotech RPG book in the aisle next to me and mentioned that I was a fan of the cartoon years earlier. I didn't play in a games store for almost a decade after that and the only store I had within bicycle riding distance for years was a crowded mall novelty store with a single 6ft rack of RPG titles and a 2ft rack of minis. They had more space devoted to lava lamps then all tabletop gaming combined.
Yes, people CAN be introduced to gaming and new games without stores, but it's a question of volume. If a significant percentage of new recruits disappears then publishers will fail, prices will go up to compensate for the lost sales, etc. And that kind of thing can have a chain reaction effect until miniatures games are an irrelevant niche market with a few hardcore fans struggling to keep the hobby going.
Also, consider the whole chain of introductions, not just one person's introduction. For example, a person is introduced to MTG by a friend, but that friend discovered MTG at a local store. And then both of them get into 40k because they were at a store for a MTG tournament and saw how cool the models were. Even if they never play 40k in a store and always buy their 40k stuff online that store is still a vital piece of getting them into the game.
The folks looking for the biggest discounts won't have to change a thing as apparently every big box store and amazon get an automatic pass and likely the biggest hobby specific online retailers will get one as well.
Assuming that the hobby-specific sellers get to stay is just that: an assumption. And let's not forget that amazon's goal is profit, not having the lowest prices. If the online sellers with the biggest discounts are removed from the market then amazon no longer has as much pressure to set their own discount at such a high level. Amazon would love to have a monopoly on the market and sell at full MSRP.
AegisGrimm wrote: Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.
When I looked earlier today, their normal everyday xwing discount was pretty much 33% across the board ($45 items for just under 30, $15 for under 10, etc). That beats anything I've ever seen from a mom and pop online retailer and is pretty much around what amazon gives. They also do sales (both general and daily single item) of 50% a couple of times a year (most recently last month for Black Friday).
And I honestly don't see the issue here. MM does 33% across the board, sure. Mom and Pops do 10-20 percent, right? (Honest question; as I've said repeatedly I haven't had a FLGS for years). If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to order from MM, for the same as their one brick and mortar store 12 hours away from me, when I have no FLGS offering that 15-20%.
Peregrine wrote: But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
Gaming clubs. Tournaments. Introducing friends or family to the game. Game-finders on online forums. Craigslist. Hiring a van with a loudspeaker and driving around the neighbourhood broadcasting the sound of a chocolate wrapper being opened.
Or, in other words, all of the ways that gamers who don't have local stores already do it, and always have done.
Sure, it can change, but we have to be realistic about this: it's not how things work right now, and it's uncertain if or how things might change in the future. And we really have to ask which is more likely here:
1) The US is moving to a "buy online, play at a gaming club" kind of community and business model where physical stores are just a place to pick up a box of something if it's convenient and in-store gaming is limited to occasional demo games of a new product.
or
2) Stores are important and will continue to be important for the foreseeable future, and this is just a case of short-sighted customers chasing the lowest possible prices no matter how much it hurts them in the long run.
You're still working from the baseless assumption that buying online is going to hurt them in the long run, because you apparently have decided that it's impossible for the hobby to survive in the US any way other than how it currently works, despite all evidence to the contrary from the rest of the world.
It might take a while, but I think the former option is the most likely in the long run, as more and more retail business moves online. And as such, I think that stores and suppliers would be better served by working towards that end, rather than trying to cling to the current way of doing things just because it's how it's always worked up to now.
streamdragon wrote: If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store.
It does say something, and that's the reason why FFG feels a need to protect their retail stores. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who will gladly buy stuff online to save an extra 5% and then bring everything into their local store to use the tables and find opponents. And, even worse, they'll proudly tell everyone else about how clever they are for saving that 5% and suggest that other people do the same. If people weren't TFGs about it we wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem and this new policy would be redundant. But, unfortunately, relying on people to do the right thing doesn't work.
Pre-orders: 10% off
Paid up local Gaming Club members: 10% off
Both of the above: 15% off
Apparently "both of the above" might be changing to 25% off next year. To be honest, that seems like kinda much, but then, primarily as a comic shop, having a customer come in today, like I did, and drop nearly the equivalent of $200 on star wars, is probably a big deal.
insaniak wrote: Gaming clubs. Tournaments. Introducing friends or family to the game. Game-finders on online forums. Craigslist. Hiring a van with a loudspeaker and driving around the neighbourhood broadcasting the sound of a chocolate wrapper being opened.
Gaming clubs (at least ones that exist independent of a store) are virtually nonexistent in the US. Tournaments, outside of a few national-level events and the hardcore players who spend hundreds of dollars on attending them, are hosted by stores. Online forums are for people who are already involved in the game, and depend on having a critical mass of non-store players around to use them. For example, dakka's player finder shows a whole 6 players for 40k within a 100-mile radius, and there's no guarantee that those players are hosting their own events instead of saying "let's go play at the local store". And craigslist might be an option, if you're looking for anonymous sex in 40k costumes instead of actual games.
You're still working from the baseless assumption that buying online is going to hurt them in the long run, because you apparently have decided that it's impossible for the hobby to survive in the US any way other than how it currently works, despite all evidence to the contrary from the rest of the world.
I didn't say that it's impossible for it to make the required changes and survive, I said that it's more likely that the loss of retail stores would cause significant damage to the hobby. Remember, this is already a niche hobby where the lure of video games and similar low-effort alternatives is a major threat. Adding more barriers to entry very likely means losing players.
Peregrine wrote: Gaming clubs (at least ones that exist independent of a store) are virtually nonexistent in the US.
Well, yes, of course they are. So long as stores offer gaming space, there is little need for gaming clubs, at least in areas where there are stores.
Of course, once upon a time, online discounters were also virtually nonexistent in the US. It's almost like things change over time.
You're fixated on how it currently works in the US. The counterpoint being made is that it doesn't work that way pretty much everywhere else, which suggests quite strongly that changing the staus quo wouldn't be anywhere near as destructive as you seem to think.
AegisGrimm wrote: Miniature Market currently has the new Epic Imperial ship marked down from $70us to just under $50. The Armada starter is $68. So they give pretty good percentages.
IIRC didn't they and/or Amazon have the starter set @ $50 a week or so ago.
streamdragon wrote: except not. More people will always be gaming, whether tabletop or board games, with their friends in someone's home. Not a gaming/hobby shop.
But how do those people get introduced to the game? How do people who don't have any gaming experience yet meet people to play with?
My group had one guy get into it after seeing Fantasy Flight had picked up the license for Star Wars when WotC let it lapse. From there, he showed the rest of us the game. From there, I play at various friends' houses, and talk about it almost exclusively online in forums like this one. I saw my first game via TableTop, the Wil Weaton Youtube show (where they play parts of the game wrong). At no point was anyone required to set foot inside a hobby shop. The last time I was even in a hobby shop was back in July when a friend visited from out of town and we decided to go over old stomping grounds. Prior to that, I hadn't been to that store in at least 15 years. (in fact they had moved locations twice since I had been there, but that's beside the point)
I don't think "friends" is such an odd answer, especially in any group that has been gaming together for years. Did someone possibly see/learn about it in an FLGS to start the whole thing? Sure. Does that FLGS get credit for showing everyone that Player 0 teaches? Not in the slightest. I learned about Fantasy Flight's board games through going to their site or sites like BGG or this one.
I seriously don't understand how in the internet age, gaming is some sort of holy relic, knowledge of which is only bestowed upon mere mortals in some sacred brick and mortar shrine. The idea that everyone, or even most people, play in game stores seems ludicrous to me, not because I haven't had a FLGS for a long time, but because I can't imagine that most people like to get together with random strangers to play games that they could play with friends in the comfort of someone's home. A good number of the games I doubt would even be available in a regular hobby shop. Do places regularly stock Flying Frog Productions games? Or indie games like Tokaido or "On Her Majesty's Service: World of Smog"?
Likewise, not everyone gets to live in the same place for a significant period of time.
Game stores, when present, help those of us who have to move frequently.
My military time and post-military employment have moved us every 1-4 years with an average of 2.5 years.
If you've not had to break into a gaming community multiple times and numerous locations, it's not always easy.
I'm not defending Asmodee's move on this but I do see the value in supporting FLGS if you have one that you use.
streamdragon wrote: If supporting your local game store isn't worth the extra couple bucks in there, that says something about your actual dedication to that game store.
It does say something, and that's the reason why FFG feels a need to protect their retail stores. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who will gladly buy stuff online to save an extra 5% and then bring everything into their local store to use the tables and find opponents. And, even worse, they'll proudly tell everyone else about how clever they are for saving that 5% and suggest that other people do the same. If people weren't TFGs about it we wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem and this new policy would be redundant. But, unfortunately, relying on people to do the right thing doesn't work.
"Their" retail stores don't exist. They have one, in MN.
And I think you missed my point. If someone isn't willing to support their local store, that says something that has nothing to do with FFG, WotC or any other companies out there. It means they don't give a crap about that store, regardless of what is sold or done there. There is no reason to be beholden to some brick and mortar shop. If it's a business that offers great service, people will support it regardless of what FFG does, or allows MM to do. It's certainly no reason to feth over the rest of the populace that doesn't have or doesn't want a FLGS/community.
Likewise, not everyone gets to live in the same place for a significant period of time.
Game stores, when present, help those of us who have to move frequently.
My military time and post-military employment have moved us every 1-4 years with an average of 2.5 years.
If you've not had to break into a gaming community multiple times and numerous locations, it's not always easy.
I'm not defending Asmodee's move on this but I do see the value in supporting FLGS if you have one that you use.
I am clearly not understanding something, since I don't see how having a FLGS helps if you have to move and leave it. Unless you are saying FLGS are a nice way to meet people, in which case I will agree and point out that I have never argued otherwise. I used to have a FLGS that I loved dearly. I spent every weekend there. Until they moved to a location I could no longer walk to (this was before I had a car). I was an army brat. I moved constantly as a kid, so I know where you're coming from. I will also point out that I have never and would never suggest that supporting an FLGS is bad.
None of which has anything, really, to do with what FFG is doing here. Especially for those of us without an FLGS, all it does is kill my interest in the game because I'm apparently not a worthy enough customer in their eyes. That is the basic message being sent.
FLGS are a nice way to meet people. That's exactly what I'm saying. If a person plays with the same folks he/she went to high school/college/long-term work gig with because they were able to live in the same spot for many years, that's great. Not everybody has that benefit.
Also, I said I didn't support what Asmodee was doing but do support things that bolster FLGSs (and good ones, of course) in succeeding.
I literally cannot remember the last time I bought anything from a physical shop that wasn't a supermarket or a petrol station. I also can't remember the last time I paid full retail for anything I bought online. Arguments in favour of restricting online sales seem to be trying to ignore the fact that it's 2015 (nearly 2016!)
Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this? Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.
Well, considering EA *already* does this, I think everyone has their answer right there.
Now, back to Sims 4.
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Compel wrote: How much do these huge online discounts end up being anyway? (Including taxes etc on the final price).
In the USA, 25% off is standard. During sales and Black Friday, 50% off is typical, and not hard to find something at 66% off,. You can find 90% off in the clearance bin.
Many OLGS offer free shipping, from $85 at Funagain, to $125 at Cardhaus. Sales tax is only collected if you live in the same state as the seller.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.
That's not a very good analogy because video games don't have the same kind of in-store community that miniatures games usually have. If you go into a physical game store you're unlikely to even encounter any fellow players, so very little, if anything is lost if the stores all go out of business. It's just such a different community and business model that anything you say about video games has no real relevance to this discussion.
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streamdragon wrote: "Their" retail stores don't exist. They have one, in MN.
By "their stores" I mean stores that they have a business relationship with.
And I think you missed my point. If someone isn't willing to support their local store, that says something that has nothing to do with FFG, WotC or any other companies out there. It means they don't give a crap about that store, regardless of what is sold or done there. There is no reason to be beholden to some brick and mortar shop. If it's a business that offers great service, people will support it regardless of what FFG does, or allows MM to do. It's certainly no reason to feth over the rest of the populace that doesn't have or doesn't want a FLGS/community.
No, I got your point, I just don't agree with it. Many of these people DO care about their stores. They care about the free table space, they care about the events, they care about the new players the store recruits, etc. They just want to have all of that stuff for free and save an extra 5% by buying all of their stuff online. I've seen people in stores to play games on that store's tables bragging about how clever they are for buying a whole army online instead of at the store they're playing in. The only way to make these people stop being TFG is to take away their ability to buy online at a huge discount and allow the local store to be the cheapest option without going bankrupt trying.
Peregrine wrote: The only way to make these people stop being TFG is to take away their ability to buy online at a huge discount and allow the local store to be the cheapest option without going bankrupt trying.
Or take away from the store the expense of trying to be both a shop and a gaming venue so that they can offer competitive prices...
The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it any less a valid alternative.
Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).
I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well. Sorry we ruined the hobby for everyone one else, somehow!
Ouze wrote: Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).
I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well.
100k people is a town here (SE England), allot wouldn't have a FLGS either. Of course in the UK the next town would only be 10-30 minutes away so the likely hood is that a FLGS is a manageable distance.
Of course if someone is out in the sticks somewhere then this is less likely.
I have Wayland Games, 4TK, Tolehaven, 5 GWs and a few small indies within 30 minutes drive of my house. Just showing off!
notprop wrote: 100k people is a town here (SE England), allot wouldn't have a FLGS either. Of course in the UK the next town would only be 10-30 minutes away so the likely hood is that a FLGS is a manageable distance.
Of course if someone is out in the sticks somewhere then this is less likely.
I have Wayland Games, 4TK, Tolehaven, 5 GWs and a few small indies within 30 minutes drive of my house. Just showing off!
I think that our sense of "out in the sticks" may not line up well, as we could drop your entire country into California nearly twice. I have to imagine there are some pretty big portions of the US with no easy access to a FLGS.
I wish I had access to a GW the way you guys did - I went to one once in Chicago and it was pretty nice. Of course, they didn't have any of the (then) new Necron characters available, but they could order them for me. So, maybe the shine would wear off quickly.
When I was growing up the nearest shop that sold wargaming stuff was an hour and a half away, this was in the UK.
Even though the UK is supposedly the wargaming capital of the world there simply arent all that many physical wargaming shops.
I strongly doubt this move would encourage the people who browse their FLGS and then buy online to suddenly stop doing so. For those concerned about people not supporting their FLGS, why not just have the shop charge for table usage that isn't MtG? That way you can continue supporting the shop and the people who prefer to buy online can do so without the accusations of not supporting the hobby or being forced to pay higher prices due to their geographical location.
I have four local game stores within an hour's drive (barring massive traffic snarls but that's a risk anywhere). If you add in multiple locations of the same tree, it's really more of seven though some of them are more of card game outlets that will sell other things. Also a GW out there somewhere which I guess counts in general but not so much for a FFG discussion. I am spoiled for options is the takeaway of this seminar.
I do try to steer business to the "good" ones that provide gaming space and events, but as the years have gone by they have made that increasingly difficult to justify. As others have said, I don't run a charity and I also haven't actually put a model on one of their tables in years; it could be approaching a decade at this point. My in-store purchases have dropped from hundreds a month in-store to maybe a hundred in a quarter (while overall hobby spending has increased insanely). KickStarter factors in there too.
However, during that time the amount the stores seem to be willing to work with the customer to get to a satisfactory deal has dropped. Pre-orders at MSRP only. Some items marked at more than MSRP (often enough that it seems unlikely to be accidental). No discounts for huge orders. Pretty much anything that moves the price in favor of the customer is verboten. On a single item that they have on the shelf already I think MSRP is fair to ask. On larger orders, the stores can knock money off the price much more easily, especially if it needs to be ordered in due to size. That they don't because they want to make $450 instead of $350 means that $300 goes to MM. That's simply being bad at business to let money leave.
Are there jerks like Peregrine talks about who would still buy from MM and then wear a t-shirt to that effect to the store? Undoubtedly, but they've been around since the secondary market existed. Basing how you conduct business based on the worst examples in society is generally a bad idea; it just encourages people to be the worst since that's how they're being treated anyway.
You guys still think this is about the FLGS? It's about Big Box cutting out their online competition. From the just-released clarification:
How will this affect mass market outlets, such a Amazon, Target, or Barnes and Noble? We consider the mass/broad market to be its own unique channel of sale, one we want to be successful in its own right alongside our other successful channels of sale.
Ouze wrote: Man, where are you people living with easy access to all these stores? I've never lived closer than 2 hours from a FLGS, with the exception of a lousy one that went out of business within a year for the usual bad gaming store reasons... and I live right near a fairly large city (100k people).
I got into the game from playing Dawn of War, and then started ordering my minis from the Warstore. I then got my friends into the h-h-hobby, wen I played, via the warstore as well. Sorry we ruined the hobby for everyone one else, somehow!
While I'm luckier than some, I know people in the rural Midwest that would have to drive 2+ hours to get to a game store. The notion that the US game stores can grow the community just as well as online stores seems like a very urban-centric view.
I'm sorry, but if you own a FLGS you own a business and should compete accordingly.
When GW was big before they butchered the rules over and over, only 1 FLGS in town offered a discount below MSRP. That store tore it UP with sales. Murdered it. Everyone else was just the backup plan if the first place ran out of stock.
If you want to compete by having free tables and pretty terrain, sure that will get butts in the door and always get you some snap decision purchases, but the almighty dollar speaks, and volume of sales beats MSRP every day of the week.
My brother in law has a game store that you pay like 10 bucks to get 10% off any purchase and 20% off on purchases over 20% for a whole year. If it was local to me, that store would get every nickel and dime I spent. I'd probably play at and go to the local shops far more frequently if they did ANY kind of discounting, but since they don't, I buy from MM and play at home. Why should we be forced to reward businesses that don't understand supply and demand?
I think this whole change to their trade channels is to support expanding their presence in big box retailers. Most of the US ones offer online price matching. It's possible they are having trouble convincing Walmart or Target to carry more of the X-Wing stuff with places like the Miniature Market offering deep 30% or greater discounts.
Having more of their Star Wars products in Walmart or Target for this Christmas season alongside the movie would have been big $$$. Walmart has been known to impose packaging and other restrictions on manufacturers to get their products in their stores. These trade channel rules could be contractually imposed in order to increase the amount of FFG products either store will carry in the next few months.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.
EA did that a few years ago and you could only get their new games (like Mass Effect 3) on services that linked through EA's direct online Origin service and not on the most popular service, Steam. I don't know if it is still the case with newer games like Star Wars Battlefront. There was the initial surge of indignation that died down to a whimper.
insaniak wrote: Seems legit. The 20% discount offered through Amazon is a different kind of 20% to the 20% offered by Dave's Discount Games.
They take it from a different part of the pricetag, or something.
The difference is that once all the Dave's Discount Games shops have been eliminated, so you can only buy from the big three, the 20% discount will be a kind of magic number that disappears when you look at it.
No, I got your point, I just don't agree with it. Many of these people DO care about their stores. They care about the free table space, they care about the events, they care about the new players the store recruits, etc. They just want to have all of that stuff for free and save an extra 5% by buying all of their stuff online. I've seen people in stores to play games on that store's tables bragging about how clever they are for buying a whole army online instead of at the store they're playing in. The only way to make these people stop being TFG is to take away their ability to buy online at a huge discount and allow the local store to be the cheapest option without going bankrupt trying.
I'll one up you. There was a guy at my old FLGS who joined our local twice a week group who would pass around his card IN THE FLGS to get 40k at 35% off during 40k nights (this was during 3rd edition when GW had no limits on who they sold to at all). I never took him up on the offer because I thought it was a ridiculous thing to do. Telling the FLGS that also sold online out of state for 10% off at the time to stop selling online or they'd lose their access would have done NOTHING to stop the guy in the store that was the actual problem and would instead have punished the store they're supposedly protection. The FFG policy simply bullies the easy targets and does nothing to protect stores from the real "culprits" (assuming that the presence on online discounters is an actual problem). If the problem actually is online discounters, the ones that do the biggest sales with the biggest discounts get a free pass on this policy. That's stupid and hypocritical.
You know there is a social part to gaming, right? meeting like minded people, getting information and people views on games...
So, nothing that inherently requires you to be standing in a shop...
Not inherently. But, like it or not, that's how it works in the US.
bs.
You are incredibly delusional. It might work that way for you, but it doesn't work that way "in the US". Population density dictates otherwise.
I've been gaming for more than 25 years, and have been to many shops in that time. Of the few that actually had gaming space, I never encountered a single board game being played. Magic the Gathering, yep. Tons. And some shops would only permit card gaming in their space. Wargames? Yep. Not nearly that often, though. Board games? Nary a one.
But this is all moot. This policy is entirely about beginning the funnel down to exclusive online sales going through their own store.
insaniak wrote: Seems legit. The 20% discount offered through Amazon is a different kind of 20% to the 20% offered by Dave's Discount Games.
They take it from a different part of the pricetag, or something.
The difference is that once all the Dave's Discount Games shops have been eliminated, so you can only buy from the big three, the 20% discount will be a kind of magic number that disappears when you look at it.
You will also loose allot of the community atmosphere that Dave's DG used to provide and the new gamers connected to it and the greater hobby.
Overall the effect of loosing DDG to future business would probably outweigh the leveraging of better whole sale prices obtained from limited online sales alone.
Hang on, Having read through the article, arent you all getting a bit excited over nothing.
Reading the press release, it seems that the group is now restricting sales to actual game stores, rather than online only retailers.
So why would this stop gaming stores selling their stock online. As long as they have a physical retail location (shop) and sell stuff in store, they should still be able to sell stuff online also.
I know this as a friend of mine runs a weekly shop outlet but can only do so on saturdays at the moment and the UK distributor claimed he was an online only retailer so he isnt allowed to stock certain FFG products, but he argued he actually has a retail outlet and contacted FFG directly, and they agreed with him that he has a physical presence, as well as an online presence\store.
I think this is just FFG ensuring that stores are the main go to for people to buy their products, and the bulk retail line is about suppliers that distribute FFG products more locally into stores.
Rick_1138 wrote: Reading the press release, it seems that the group is now restricting sales to actual game stores, rather than online only retailers.
So why would this stop gaming stores selling their stock online. As long as they have a physical retail location (shop) and sell stuff in store, they should still be able to sell stuff online also.
No, you need to reread it. In the original post it specifically says physical stores are limited to only in person sales and it is reinforced as one of their bullet point FAQ articles in their follow up BGG "clarification" post. If your actual phsyical location brick and mortar FLGS store sells online, they'll have to stop. Exceptions for big sellers (with coincidentally the biggest discounts typically and the biggest "problem") will be made though... you know... to protect the little guys.
Some brick-and-mortar specialty retailers also sell online, how will this affect them?
We recognize that these new policies come with implications for some retailers. One such change will be that authorized specialty retailers will agree not to sell Asmodee North America products online. That said, we hope the end result, i.e. enabling us to support them relative to other defined channels, will be a significant net improvement for specialty retailers overall.
On the topic of Walmart/Target/et al, it's doubtful that Big Box cares too much about FFG products outside of the LCGs and the core boxes, and even those are iffy. Big Box works on breadth of offering and not so much on depth.
FFG stock moves no where near fast enough to justify the shelf space required by their various and plentiful expansions. For X-Wing alone there's about 40 different SKUs, and some of those boxes are sizable. That'd be nearly an entire endcap display and outside of specific situations (see also: movie releases and initial release of a wave) the stock just isn't going to produce the revenue. Target already clearance-ed off X-Wing once, and it was hard to pass up $15-20 starter sets. Disney might be helping out a bit to get the basic parts in, but just like with MtG, the boxes found in the big stores are the intro point and not a full-service stop for the complete range.
Asmodee's other offerings though are probably what the terms would be geared towards as board games can be reasonably self-contained and don't take up tons of room. These are the generally more mainstream items. I'd have to go through FFG's catalog but I don't think they make tons of mainstream-ready games. They excel in the niche market, which is generally not an area Big Box ever cares to cater towards.
Neronoxx wrote: Amazon stays in business by running a deficit (losing money on every sale) but then generates a collosal amount of revenue from investors, keeping them in business.
In short, Amazon makes money by losing money. How do you expect any other store to compete?
Also, small point of fact, this is no longer true although it was up until recently. They posted a small loss in Q1 this year, and then were profitable for the next 2 (no earnings report for the last quarter yet, obviously). They will probably surpass 100 billion in revenue for 2015.
You know there is a social part to gaming, right? meeting like minded people, getting information and people views on games...
So, nothing that inherently requires you to be standing in a shop...
Not inherently. But, like it or not, that's how it works in the US.
Not around me. Where exactly do you live where you think most people game in a store? Particularly board games? Yeah, that's just what I want, to lug 7 expansions of Arkham Horror to game with some random dudes rather than my friends in my home!
hotsauceman1 wrote: Ok I have a question, if any other business did this, would we be ok with this?
Lets say, EA suddenly decided it didnt want people buying their games online anymore cheaply and possibly bundled games, so they said no more online sales.....except for those that they deem ok and from their own website......Im sure EVERYONE would be fine with it because it grows the gamer community.
EA did that a few years ago and you could only get their new games (like Mass Effect 3) on services that linked through EA's direct online Origin service and not on the most popular service, Steam. I don't know if it is still the case with newer games like Star Wars Battlefront. There was the initial surge of indignation that died down to a whimper.
They did do this yet you can still buy their games online from Amazon, CDKeys etc on the day of release for 50% cheaper.
My FLGS is not so local (about 80 miles (~120km away)), but I do try and buy from them when I'm up there gaming. There are several product lines that I'm currently into that they don't carry however. For those lines I generally shop online and try to get the best deal I can.
I can't really see how this new FFG policy will help my local store any. All it will really do is move more of the sales to the large online discounters at the expense of the smaller discounters.
A fascinating read all the way through this thread.
I'm sorry to say Peregrine that you just don't make a compelling argument to someone that is not being served by an LGS. If an LGS can't compete with an online discounter why should everyone else be taxed to subsidize the unproven and intangible benefit of "growing the hobby"?
The one and only game store in my town of 64K does not "grow" anything related to board games. It's CCG's, 40K and Warmahordes in that order. The staff don't demo anything and rarely have any clue about board games. They're a bunch of swell guys, but they add ZERO value to my gaming experience.
And here's a fun though. When FFG found their relationship with Dust Studios no longer to their benefit. What did they do with their stock on hand? I seem to remember them dumping it at 50% to 70% off of MSRP. How many LGS did that protect?
And here's a fun though. When FFG found their relationship with Dust Studios no longer to their benefit. What did they do with their stock on hand? I seem to remember them dumping it at 50% to 70% off of MSRP. How many LGS did that protect?
They also did that with AT-43 as well when being the exclusive distributor for that game for several years (just like Dust) didn't work for them any more. They also discount their own in print not discontinued nor cancelled stuff at up to 75% off every year for black friday online no matter what FLGS across north america have in stock. Please note that I'm not complaining about the sales as they allow me to try things that I'd never otherwise try (like variant 40krpg books instead of just the deathwatch that I was running at the time).
I saw earlier in the thread somewhere that FFG was apparently cancelling all their 40kRPG lines? Can anyone point me in the direction of this news since I had not heard it anywhere before this thread.
hokieseas wrote: I saw earlier in the thread somewhere that FFG was apparently cancelling all their 40kRPG lines? Can anyone point me in the direction of this news since I had not heard it anywhere before this thread.
I said ALMOST, which is not the same as all. They can bluster, blabber and scream all they want, but Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Only War have not seen an update or a bit of news in well over a year now, so we can safely assume that they will not see any further supplements or work done on them, thus they are dead.
(and no hints from the our spinny friend H.M.B.C who writes for them) so I don't think it's happening
(although they don't seem to be releasing a lot for some of them any more and quite a few of the books and supplements were involved in their BF blowout sale so there's always some room for worry)
Edit: although BrookM's pessimism and my optimism may end up in the same place, with the games officially live, but with no new material coming out, so only you can decide if they're games you want to get into on those terms
Yes, so they keep telling me, no official word means that they're still working on it, right? Well, get to fething work already and give us that Schola Progenium splatbook you gakkers!
He seems quite pleased about it. I suspect a fair number of FLGS owners will be too.
Board Games, and even this X-wing game also sell in the Big Box stores-- Target, Walmart etc-- in the USA. I wonder if those places had any influence on the decision?
Donkey cave author here. I want to point out what I wrote is addressing a very specific problem in the game trade. That problem is other game stores over ordering product because of perverse game industry incentives and then using the Internet as their exhaust pipe, blowing out what they can't sell. Because game stores are doing very well right now, the number of stores has grown tremendously and therefore the number of stores exhausting product onto the Internet has also increased. This has created a devaluation of board games during a boom time, with it not uncommon to see games sold online at around cost.
We sell over 20,000 board games a year and we can palpably feel the effect of this dumping. As a small business, we're not looking for protection. In fact, the usual response to this is to pivot quickly away. That means dropping product lines, like FFG. It might mean moving to other businesses. It's a personal choice.
The publishers know this is happening and know we're talking about the pivot. Asmodee has decided that it's to their benefit to address this problem, even though they make the same amount of money whether it's sold in my store at MSRP or sold online at 40% off. They acknowledge that the FLGS has value in promoting the brand beyond the potential sales loss of huge volumes of online sales.
This allows us to promote their games through events and tournaments, a win-win. I am not claiming online sales are killing game stores. I *am* claiming game stores are killing game stores when they hit this critical dump mass. The FLGS is the worst enemy of the FLGS.
Some LGS exist to promote, and they probably sell at full price.
Others are Internet wholesaling and working off volume.
And then there are the big boxes, which probably sell far more than the LGS and Internet are likely to believe.
All of these are legit business models. If I know what I want, and it's merely a question of buying, I should be able to simply buy the thing at/near cost, because I've already done the hard work of educating myself, rather than taking someone else's time to do the teaching.
A LGS that is "losing" sales to the Internet never had them in the first place, because it didn't drive sufficient value to cover the delta between wholesale cost and MSRP.
blackdiamond wrote: The publishers know this is happening and know we're talking about the pivot. Asmodee has decided that it's to their benefit to address this problem, even though they make the same amount of money whether it's sold in my store at MSRP or sold online at 40% off. They acknowledge that the FLGS has value in promoting the brand beyond the potential sales loss of huge volumes of online sales.
Except that they're not addressing it.
They're still allowing the big box retailers to sell online, and because they're big box retailers they will still be setting their own price. So you'll still see exactly the same pricing trends as you see now, they'll just be coming solely from the big box stores with FLGSs no longer allowed to sit at the same end of the bus.
This doesn't protect the FLGS. It just pushes more business towards the big box retailers.
blackdiamond wrote: The publishers know this is happening and know we're talking about the pivot. Asmodee has decided that it's to their benefit to address this problem, even though they make the same amount of money whether it's sold in my store at MSRP or sold online at 40% off. They acknowledge that the FLGS has value in promoting the brand beyond the potential sales loss of huge volumes of online sales.
Except that they're not addressing it.
They're still allowing the big box retailers to sell online, and because they're big box retailers they will still be setting their own price. So you'll still see exactly the same pricing trends as you see now, they'll just be coming solely from the big box stores with FLGSs no longer allowed to sit at the same end of the bus.
This doesn't protect the FLGS. It just pushes more business towards the big box retailers.
I disagree, because nobody is making money selling board games at 40-50% off. Those are dump prices. The FLGS problem is it's pretty easy to compete with standard online pricing, around the 20% range. We've got a value proposition that competes with that price differential. At 40-50% off on a regular basis, we can't compete. We cede the market and walk away.
If people are selling at a loss, that's their problem. Eventually, they go out of business.
Why that should be any sort of concern to an ongoing business, or why any ongoing business should be claiming it to be an issue, those are both beyond me.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If people are selling at a loss, that's their problem. Eventually, they go out of business.
Why that should be any sort of concern to an ongoing business, or why any ongoing business should be claiming it to be an issue, those are both beyond me.
Smoke and mirrors, guys, smoke and mirrors.
No, they don't go out of business. For example, they order 50 copies of a game. They order more than they need because their distributor discount is based on volume and there's no risk. They sell 40 copies in their store at MSRP and 10 copies online at 40% off to get their money back, probably as an Amazon seller. Amazon's algorithms responds by selling at 41% off. Everyone erroneously blames/credits Amazon. When enough stores do this, the next game only sells 30 copies in store. Suddenly they have 20 copies they have to dump online. When store owners identify this value spiral, they eventually store owners stop ordering that game as it inexplicably stops selling. Again, a problem for game store owners, caused by game tore owners.
From the sounds of it, this does seem to be a uniquely USA based problem, then?
The only place I've ever seen come close to that sort of values in the UK is Chaos Cards, or Amazon during their major, major sales - and that's just coincidence, like a couple of weeks ago, that "Star Wars Armada" just happened to be a board game, and valid for a promotion...
Compel wrote: From the sounds of it, this does seem to be a uniquely USA based problem, then?
The only place I've ever seen come close to that sort of values in the UK is Chaos Cards, or Amazon during their major, major sales - and that's just coincidence, like a couple of weeks ago, that "Star Wars Armada" just happened to be a board game, and valid for a promotion...
Occasional sales are not a problem, and most other countries don't have nearly as many game stores. In the US we just have this perverse incentive to buy beyond our local needs and a trade that lacks professionalism. Most game store owners don't know how to buy, budget or forecast. They have no tools in their toolbox, and why would they need them with a magical outlet for their mistakes? I think this is a result of a huge number of new stores popping up due to the Magic boom. As many people denigrate the FLGS, there are far more now than there were 10 years ago.
Nope. 10 copies got sold cheap, and that was it. The idea that Amazon will always be the cheapest seller and match indefinitely is kinda silly, because I am looking at other goods, and that scenario just does not hold.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nope. 10 copies got sold cheap, and that was it. The idea that Amazon will always be the cheapest seller and match indefinitely is kinda silly, because I am looking at other goods, and that scenario just does not hold.
Well, I've done this every day for the last 11 years, selling 20,000 board games a year. I wanted to attempt to explain the nuances of this, but I guess there are limits.
I appreciate the explanation about how small stores fit into the equation. I still respectfully think FFG is targeting the small fish because it is easy while sadly giving the bigger problem a free pass. I cant speak for others but when Im looking to gamble on a new untested product, I dont order from small sellers online but rather only from trusted big names. Ymmv.
Also, I'm surprised board games are such a big part of your business. There's definitely been an uptick in the past years but that is alot. Congrats either way.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nope. 10 copies got sold cheap, and that was it. The idea that Amazon will always be the cheapest seller and match indefinitely is kinda silly, because I am looking at other goods, and that scenario just does not hold.
I think you are focusing too much on Amazon. It's really basic, it's scarcity at work. Stores know there is only demand for X amount of product locally but distributors want to move a larger amount of product. Distributors push stores to order Y amount of product instead by lowering to cost of higher volume orders. Stores are happy to sell X amount of product in store and sell off the remainder online. Since the distributor heavily discounted the cost to move more product the store passes that discount on to consumer online because the store already made a profit from the in store sales. The store is happy to sell off the remaining product online at cost just to free up space. Having every game store dumping extra product online discounted to the wholesale cost floods the market with discounted product and thus weakens demand for buying the product in store at a higher cost. This weakening of demand caused by large amounts of discounted products online causes stores to sell less in store. There demand drops but distributors still have want to push high volumes on the stores but stores can't afford to over order and dump excess product via discounted online sales because everyone else is doing it creating an excess of product and reducing demand for the devalued product. Amazon isn't a cause it's just a symptom created by the stores themselves using Amazon or eBay or their own webstore for clearance sales of products that shouldn't have been ordered in the first place. The ability to clear excess stock online removes moral hazard and incentivized over ordering and the widespread use of the Internet To clear stock will eventually decrease demand to point that people aren't buying enough discounted products l aging stores stuck with it. In short it's not a sustainable business model but it's the business model being incentivized by the current status quo.
In your example, every store sold the 40 local units at MSRP that they would have, except they got them at a better margin. They then got a sliver of extra profit on 10 Internet units that they never would have sold in the first place. That is not a problem at all. Every store maximized their profits.
Given how long this particular product line has been sold, and how many expansion waves it has generated, it seems to be quite successful and extremely sustainable.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In your example, every store sold the 40 local units at MSRP that they would have, except they got them at a better margin. They then got a sliver of extra profit on 10 Internet units that they never would have sold in the first place. That is not a problem at all. Every store maximized their profits.
This time. What they're saying is that the next product only sells 30 units at MSRP, as the other 10 customers noticed the previous item selling at a deep discount later on, and so chose to wait for that this time around. And so the store winds up selling fewer at MSRP and making less money overall.
As far as I can see, though, that would be a little hard to pin down, if it's actually happening. There's not really any way to be sure if the decreased MSRP sales are actually/i] the result of more people deliberately waiting for the it to be discounted, or are just down to fewer people [i]wanting that next product while it's available at MSRP.
And here's a fun though. When FFG found their relationship with Dust Studios no longer to their benefit. What did they do with their stock on hand? I seem to remember them dumping it at 50% to 70% off of MSRP. How many LGS did that protect?
They also did that with AT-43 as well when being the exclusive distributor for that game for several years (just like Dust) didn't work for them any more. They also discount their own in print not discontinued nor cancelled stuff at up to 75% off every year for black friday online no matter what FLGS across north america have in stock. Please note that I'm not complaining about the sales as they allow me to try things that I'd never otherwise try (like variant 40krpg books instead of just the deathwatch that I was running at the time).
Exactly. Why buy Horus Heresy for nearly 100 bucks from my local games store when FFG sold it for about $35us with shipping two years back during Black Friday. I did not decide to take the plunge, but the irony is sound.
Meh. I buy from my FLGS anyway, and don't even use MM anymore. The only people I feel bad for are those who don't have a FLGS they play at.
*shrug* I own dozens of boardgames and multiple large forces for each of at least a dozen different miniatures games, and a LGS has never helped get me interested in a single one. I found 40K 20 years ago to begin my whole hobby at a Riders Hobby shop, but only on my own because the minis on the racks looked cool to a kid who was already a Star Wars geek, not through any kind of salesman.
Dakka and Boardgamegeek all the way, with my own research and never even one chance to play at a table at a LGS.
I like anything that encourages people to buy from a brick and mortar store, but that's probably because I have great options for doing so. Having the Combat Companies retail outlet essentially on my doorstep is a huge motivator to drop in and buy things, and other FLGS's in the area are pretty rad as well.
However, I can understand why people who live long distances from stores would seek online alternatives, however. Hopefully their 'special considerations' will take this into account and larger online stores that supply large portions of an area will get exemptions.
I don't play @ the LGS much any more (1-2 times in the last year). Usually at home or at a friends home. So, no discount = no buy. No big loss either way. Miniature games don't keep most LGS open, MAGIC does.
Most my Infinity and stuff is from TheCombatCompany which is in New South Wales, and I live in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. Guess Im a parasite!
Adelaide doesnt have tonnes of gaming stores, and the ones it does are far out of my way in more affluent suburbs. The VAST VAST VAST VAST VAST (have I made my point yet?) majority of people play at a handful of gaming clubs, the odd tournament convention, or at home. Not stores. But don't let that get in the way of psuedo-elitism from shopgamers and draconian company policies, afterall this internet shopping thing will go away sooner or later. It's just a fad after all!
JohnHwangDD wrote: In your example, every store sold the 40 local units at MSRP that they would have, except they got them at a better margin. They then got a sliver of extra profit on 10 Internet units that they never would have sold in the first place. That is not a problem at all. Every store maximized their profits.
This time. What they're saying is that the next product only sells 30 units at MSRP, as the other 10 customers noticed the previous item selling at a deep discount later on, and so chose to wait for that this time around. And so the store winds up selling fewer at MSRP and making less money overall.
As far as I can see, though, that would be a little hard to pin down, if it's actually happening. There's not really any way to be sure if the decreased MSRP sales are actually/i] the result of more people deliberately waiting for the it to be discounted, or are just down to fewer people [i]wanting that next product while it's available at MSRP.
Again, how long as X-wing been around, and how successful has it been? If there was an Internet impact, sales should have crated already, *before* the new Star Wars movie came out and *crushed* the box office. My expectation is that 2016 will be a banner year for X-wing, which is why FFG just changed up the X-wing starter to feature the new ships from the movie, and that this LGS noise is just just that, noise.
However, if non-store people can't buy X-wing at the prices that they expect, I imagine they'll just walk away from the game, and switch over to the next thing. What will happen is that the casuals will simply buy from Target or Walmart or Barnes & Noble. Or even Toys R Us. No matter how big the pie gets, the stores will get a smaller slice of the pie. Which is just fine. Non-Magic-based gaming stores are one of the worst businesses to be in. Period.
(and no hints from the our spinny friend H.M.B.C who writes for them) so I don't think it's happening
(although they don't seem to be releasing a lot for some of them any more and quite a few of the books and supplements were involved in their BF blowout sale so there's always some room for worry)
Edit: although BrookM's pessimism and my optimism may end up in the same place, with the games officially live, but with no new material coming out, so only you can decide if they're games you want to get into on those terms
Thanks for the clarification. I had just always got the impression that it was a fairly small staff within the company responsible for the W40K RPGs and with 2 new books for Dark Heresy ][ that were announced in October, figured that was their workload for the last quarter.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Nope. 10 copies got sold cheap, and that was it. The idea that Amazon will always be the cheapest seller and match indefinitely is kinda silly, because I am looking at other goods, and that scenario just does not hold.
Well, I've done this every day for the last 11 years, selling 20,000 board games a year. I wanted to attempt to explain the nuances of this, but I guess there are limits.
There are; we're not credulous enough to believe that the effects of a common Big Box retailer practice(loss leaders to drive sales in other items/generate habitual repeat customers) is actually all secretly because Joey Blogs with his wee game store in Bumfeth Nowhere, Idaho dropped a few boxes of excess stock on the Amazon Marketplace or Ebay near-cost to clear his shelves.
Also, haud on a wee minute there; your assertion is that FLGSs do this, clearing stock online dirt cheap, because the companies making the games offer them incentives to buy more stock than they actually need. Ehhh, but that means the problem that Asmodee/FFG are "solving" by banning online FLGS sales is one they created and which could be solved much more easily and with little to no impact on consumers by simply no longer offering such incentives.
Naw mate, either you're arguing this hard because you don't want to believe how hard you're about to get shafted, or because you think you're going to be one of the special snowflakes who gets an exception and so this policy will give you an advantage over your competition.
Sigh.... what´s really lacking in this thread is a basic understanding of sound business-practices. On the other end we have too much generalization....
Yodhrin wrote: Ehhh, but that means the problem that Asmodee/FFG are "solving" by banning online FLGS sales is one they created and which could be solved much more easily and with little to no impact on consumers by simply no longer offering such incentives.
Ayep. Forecasting retail sales is tricky, but, if Asmodee thinks the market can sustain x units of a game, they can't expect to sell 2x to distributors without a drop in market price.
Wouldn't the problem of super discounters be solved if they just rolled back some of the ridiculous discount tiers from the distributor? Like if they picked the tier most LGSs took advantage of and got rid of anything better.
Kilkrazy wrote: It's equally possible that Asmodee just want to do what GW did and gather most online sales to their own website where they will make the most profit.
You think?
Did anybody compare the GW and Asmodee terms & conditions?
I can'ty buy local to me as there is no LGS so I buy online. If I can't buy below MSRP then my X-Wing impulse buys will be reduced to £0. I will then only buy things that I need for competitive play which means once I've found a squadron I'm successful with I'll stick with that as my fun squadron impulse buys will be no more.
This is all a moot point of course as I'm in the UK and doesn't effect us......yet.....
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Sigh.... what´s really lacking in this thread is a basic understanding of sound business-practices. On the other end we have too much generalization....
Then explain it, rather than being passive aggressive about it.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Sigh.... what´s really lacking in this thread is a basic understanding of sound business-practices. On the other end we have too much generalization....
Then explain it, rather than being passive aggressive about it.
You're talking about Duncan, right? It's his MO to put on superior airs that he knows the gaming business (and all business) inside and out unlike the great unwashed here. After all, what would any of the rest of us know about any of those things? After all, he's a translator. What have you ever done in the gaming industry?
Oh and for those extolling the virtues of B&M stores over online since B&M provides a place to play, teach new gamers, etc. Here's my closest store that sells FFG.
Oh yeah, that's 3/4 of the store in that shot. There's another walk-row behind the shelves on the left, and then the wall. And yeah, I do buy stuff there occasionally. Basically impulse stuff I don't particularly need. Anyone wanting to claim that they do more for "the hobby" than online stores is sadly mistaken. The only thing they have in their favour is that I can take it home right now (in exchange for a premium price.) I don't have anything against them. They're a shop - they sell stuff. They also sell grey some import video games, since they're often cheaper than sourcing local stock.
There are two stores that have gaming - one a further away, a pain in the arse to get to and is run by a passive-agressive douchebag, and one in the CBD run by the poor stereotype of surly and disinterested, unfriendly, unhelpful game store staff.
Henshini wrote: Wouldn't the problem of super discounters be solved if they just rolled back some of the ridiculous discount tiers from the distributor? Like if they picked the tier most LGSs took advantage of and got rid of anything better.
With the conventional distributor-retail business model, distributors *expect* certain levels of discount. Cthulhu Wars has this problem. GEG says it can't provide discounts distributors expect because the games are so costly to make (no idea why, then, you can get CW at CSI for a nifty $130+). OTOH, A company the size of Asmodee might be able to do this, given their size in the industry. To some extent, Asmodee's prohibiting online sales and giving special terms to Big Box companies accomplishes this.
Anyone here really think Asmodee cares *that* much about the FLGS? As blackdiamond says, "Most game store owners don't know how to buy, budget or forecast." Yeah, that's exactly the backbone you want your multi-million dollar business to rely upon. Once Asmodee moves towards using Big Box, they'll have better control over their inventory and supply, solving many problems they have with the current retail-distributor system.
It at least read my Mankiw and Stieglitz... You don´t need to be a wizard, but some basic understanding of business helps you a long way if you want to stay in business.
Compared to other countries discounts are way too high in the US, which will hurt all parties involved in the long run. Add to this LGS who do not have more business experience than their customers and some bigger shops that want to dominate the market by crushing their opponents by riding it out on discounts until they floor them. Competition is not the problem. The best market for a company like Asmodee is a healthy mixture of all kinds of distribution channels. This gives them max exposure. GW does not really grasp this and hence commits the blunders we all know. Especially the ones where they piss off their multiplier-customers.
Markets do not work out when left alone. Best example are the banks... it takes only some who get too greedy and all have to pay dearly for it later. Asmodee does what a good government would do. It regulates business where necessary. And if you keep in mind how fast Asmodee has grown in the last ten years they are definitly not the ones lacking a good understanding of business.
There are quite some consumer-markets that had to go through what awaits the gamers-market and some did not so well and have been nearly obliterated. The discount-wars nearly killed hi-fi and too many TVs these days are worse than the models that came before them. The discount-war in the TV-sector has turned out that bad for most participants that close to no-one is making any profit anymore and they have to support TV-production with sales from other departments.
Gaming business is not that bad off, but if left unchecked it could quickly deteriorate.
That´s the short version. The long one would need its own thread, cause then we really have to do micro- and macro-economics, including the necessary math. And normally people get payed quite some when explaining it in such detail an are called consultants.
I look forward to America's FLGSs enjoying the boom in their business they'll undoubtedly see as America's online buyers switch to buying FFG from Target and Walmart, while overseas online buyers will simply stop buying.
Most overseas buyers stopped quite some time ago. When USPS jacked up prices for overseas-parcels that really hurt business with the rest of the world.
It is not just about protecting FLGS, it is about keeping the market a healthy mix.
So the solution to having too high discounts in the USofA is to just have no discounts? And that's not even accounting for the fact that the big buyers are apparently exempt from this.
Plenty of people buy games at full price in department stores and book shop chains, but these people are probably not afficionados or they would be buying at a specialist shop or on line.
Nope -- It's about Asmodee's PR department putting a spin on its policy change. Big Box says Asmodee cannot have its products sold through other online stores, so Asmodee releases said policy.
It'd be better if they did a carrot for shopping at a LGS rather than a stick for not. Do something like Wyrd does, and make promotions exclusive to LGS retailers (an exclusive repaint available at a LGS if you spend X amount or something).
decker_cky wrote: It'd be better if they did a carrot for shopping at a LGS rather than a stick for not. Do something like Wyrd does, and make promotions exclusive to LGS retailers (an exclusive repaint available at a LGS if you spend X amount or something).
That costs them money. Pushing around small stores that sell online will just shift those sales to the big box stores and online massive discounters that they can't push around and doesn't cost them money. It's a short term win win for FFG and Amazon/Target/Miniature Market... just not for customers or small stores.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Markets do not work out when left alone. Best example are the banks... it takes only some who get too greedy and all have to pay dearly for it later. Asmodee does what a good government would do. It regulates business where necessary. And if you keep in mind how fast Asmodee has grown in the last ten years they are definitly not the ones lacking a good understanding of business.
I'm pretty sure that's what CitiGroup thought when it went on its acquisition spree.
You're talking in broad vague terms, so let me talk in specific ones: Hasbro's acquisition of WotC. I spoke, at the time, with some employees who left WotC at the time of the purchase, and they pretty much said they were able to cash out of the company and form their own small ones. In fact, if you look at Z-Man Games after Filosofia Games acquired it, not only can you find threads on BGG about various negative changes in the company, but its founder, Zev, has left the company as well. Asmodee also bought Days of Wonder, and, iirc, the CEO and key personnel have left there, too. If you've followed editions of D&D after AD&D, they were made by short-term freelancers rather than long-standing employees (?) of the company. New editions of D&D were released at shorter cycles, on the notion that core books sell. On the other hand, when you have personnel who don't want to work for a corporation leave and start up their own companies, and because games have a low barrier to entry, you still have companies like Paizo starting up. Paizo was formed by employees who left WotC to form their own company. Not only have they a competitive roleplaying game line, but even released a boardgame, Pathinder Adventure Card Game, which has some following on BGG.
BTW, Many companies acquire companies not just for their products, but for their market share. I don't see how much market share the hobby boardgame companies have for the Big Box game industry, assuming (easily) that Asmodee's goal is the Big Box market. Most hobby boardgames are known through friends and game events. Most family games are known through older relatives, and is a much larger audience than the hobby market, with parents, uncles, and aunts buying cheap, familiar games for younger children for many, many generations. (Monopoly was invented in the 1920's during the Great Depression.) Meanwhile, for hobby games, while Eurogames have taken off dramatically in the last decade, it's only a few lifestyle games, like Magic the Gathering, Warhammer 40K, and Dungeons and Dragons, which can be said as specific games that have a large audience, and then only within the hobby market. Asmodee doesn't even own these games.
Finally, though, maybe it's Eurazeo that knows what it's doing. Asmodee is such a small amount of Eurazeo's portfolio, if a company that's acquired several hobby boardgame companies fail, it won't have a major impact on Eurazeo's returns. Assuming, of course, that the returns of a private equity firm are more important to you than the continued creativity of certain hobby boardgame companies.
Um... you got your facts not quite right. Asmodee is well-known over here for not touching studios after acquisition. They are not that stupid and know that the people working there and not the name is what is the essence of the studio. Most new studios you mention are also branches of Asmodee, but they do not advertise it that much. Z-Man had some problems, but they also had some problems before that (Clash of Cultures, miniature-bleeding e.g.).
And Asmodee has amuch healthier approach to business than other companies, like Hasbro.
You know there is a social part to gaming, right? meeting like minded people, getting information and people views on games...
So, nothing that inherently requires you to be standing in a shop...
Not inherently. But, like it or not, that's how it works in the US.
Not around me. Where exactly do you live where you think most people game in a store? Particularly board games? Yeah, that's just what I want, to lug 7 expansions of Arkham Horror to game with some random dudes rather than my friends in my home!
Shop i used to go to in my home country was a kite/boardgame/GW seller store.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Um... you got your facts not quite right. Asmodee is well-known over here for not touching studios after acquisition.
Let's certainly hope this is the case. Again, I'd say that the CEOs of Days of Wonder leaving after the acquisition is change. In the states, we pretty much bristle at "the corporation", and haven't seen many positive changes to boardgame companies after acquisitions.
In the end, though, I think us bargain-hunters will still find Asmodee games available at a discount when Big Box stores start fighting among themselves during the holidays, and MM and CSI will still sell games from smaller companies at a good discount.
* freely admits to picking up two Walmart editions of Magic the Gathering: Planeswalkers Arena for $20 each and a box of Battle for Zendikar boosters and intro packs at Walgreens for 40% off before sales tax*
I for one welcome our Big Box Shop Gaming Overlords!
Weirdest thing about all this is that I've seen FFG games in my local (crappy) and close to work (not as crappy) Targets for some time now, along with the usual Catans, Pandemics, Tickets to Ride... games of those ilk.
Hell, bought and flipped a couple of Silver Line FFG games a while back when they weren't selling too well at Target and I knew someone out there would want them (and I still didn't sell them for close to what FFG was suggesting they sell for).
From what I understand though, a lot of those games are picked up through local distributors and then put in the stores, not Target itself putting in a big order.
Curious to see how this plays out, because it's not like Target doesn't do its fair share of price slashing either.
Cartwheel + Red Card + Coupons = I'm still not spending anywhere close to what Asmodee or FFG think I should be spending on their games. Probably less when I let my wife do the shopping for these kinds of items, as she's like a fifth degree black belt when it comes to gaming the stores into getting items super SUPER cheap.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Um... you got your facts not quite right. Asmodee is well-known over here for not touching studios after acquisition.
Guess they fethed that up then. Just because they didn't fire anyone doesn't mean they didn't touch FFG. Their sales terms and practices are arguably a part of the studio and it's success.
Sure, it can change, but we have to be realistic about this: it's not how things work right now, and it's uncertain if or how things might change in the future. And we really have to ask which is more likely here:
1) The US is moving to a "buy online, play at a gaming club" kind of community and business model where physical stores are just a place to pick up a box of something if it's convenient and in-store gaming is limited to occasional demo games of a new product.
or
2) Stores are important and will continue to be important for the foreseeable future, and this is just a case of short-sighted customers chasing the lowest possible prices no matter how much it hurts them in the long run.
What's becoming a trend in Montreal is the gaming pub. The Colonel Mustard and Randolph are both establishments where you can either bring your games or use the owners' and eat or drink while you're there. It can be pricey to switch your offering, but oftentimes, you might have to in order to survive. The consumers will rarely talk exclusively about prices. We have to listen to them.
From my readings on authenticity, you have really corner your market as an entrepreneur. If your customer base is only sensitive to price, then yes, the internet discounters will win and protectionism is doomed to fail. If the market evolves (like it did for cars in the US since the 1950s) and demands different things, then different segments can be carved out and catered to. You will always have those who clamour only for better prices, and for those websites exist so they can endlessly hunt for a better deal on a car, or games. There comes a cycle in the life of a type of product where having it or more of it is not the ultimate goal. When the product becomes a symbol of prestige, for instance, people will be willing to pay the price for it.
When and if the commodity fetishism lessens and people realize that their dollars are more than just for stuff but can have an impact on their community and local jobs are more important than saving a few bucks every year, then the stakes are different, but you can't hope for that. If such a time ever comes about, it'll be part of a much larger ersatz movement.
When people come to purchase an offering not just to consume but as a means of self-realization, to fulfill an image they have of themselves, price takes a backseat in this instance.
For my part, I gladly support an FLGS that respects MSRP. One charges above it and I refuse to give him my patronage. Amazon generally turns out to be a lot more expensive for such specialty products. Sure, they'll have one day deals on a specific product (Tantive IV was on sale for 56$ on December 23rd) but if you want something specific, I sometimes see them at up to 100% above MSRP.
Again, I don't think protectionism of this sort works. I don't know what will. But I do hope that gaming pubs catch on. They seem to be great fun.
I'm sure l'office de la langue française will soon find a way to close down these gaming pubs, or fine them out of existence for offering an insufficiently large selection of games in French.
They might indeed. Although the pub's name is in French. But that's beside the point. The pubs have a working relationship with distributors so could easily have a sales account and sell the games people sampled while eating or drinking. And it does bring back a social dimension to gaming.
Last week, Asmodee announced that in a post-merger consolidation, business operations of Asmodee, Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) and Days of Wonder (DOW) will be consolidated into Asmodee North America (see "Asmodee, Fantasy Flight, Days of Wonder Consolidate"), and that terms of sale to the trade will be changing. ICv2 caught up with new Asmodee NA CEO Christian Petersen to learn more about the specifics of the deal. In Part 1, we discuss branding, marketing investments, organized play, stocking policies, and selling direct to retailers. In Part 2, we discussed the company’s new terms and how they differ by channel, MAP, and online retailing.
ICv2: How will the four different brands (three studios, plus Asmodee NA) be used? Will products continue to be branded with the studios, as Asmodee NA, or both?
Petersen: The publishers, Asmodee Publishing, Days of Wonder, Fantasy Flight Games will continue to operate and be represented under their own identity. They will continue their own independent websites, catalogs, convention presences, OP programs, etc. In other words, the activities and people behind those publishers will largely continue to operate as they have been.
The Asmodee North America unit represents the business-to-business, operative, logistical, administration, and shared-marketing services for the publishers in North America. We are not a consumer-facing brand.
The announcement of the consolidation said that one outcome of the changes would be additional investment in marketing. Is there anything beyond the new Asmodee website that you can share as far as new investments in marketing and communications?
There are several initiatives. We’ve been in the process of recruiting hundreds of contractors around the country to engage in significantly more event-based and demonstration based marketing. For example, we just did a big X-Wing event in the main rotunda at the Mall of America (Minnesota) in connection with the release of the new Star Wars film. This approach will extend to many Asmodee and DOW products, as well as to activity specific to the Spot It! brand (see "Asmodee Acquires 'Spot It!'").
As you mentioned, we are launching a new Asmodee Publishing website soon. The team is dedicating a lot of work to this, and will be generating a lot of ongoing website content providing articles, previews, and other resources for consumers. Based on past experience, we believe this will give a noteworthy boost in interest for the games published under the Asmodee brand.
We’re also contributing financially to a new marketing program in connection with our authorized distributors which we hope will help our communications and support for the specialty retail space.
Overall, across all three publishing brands, we’re making huge increases in marketing investment. This is primarily targeted at consumer marketing and new player acquisition, but we’re also increasing our trade marketing. I’m very hopeful retailers will see positive effects from all these efforts.
Will organized play programs be merged, and if so, when?
FFG’s OP program will continue its current direction, and AsmoPlay will also continue (see "Asmodee's New Organized Play Program"). They will be handled as two separate programs under their respective publishing brands.
In terms of the talent behind the programs, the OP for each brand will be managed by distinct teams (having access to shared internal resources) with know-how in each supported game. We want to ensure that the OP experience is authentic and relevant for the loyal audiences of each game supported by our OP.
You’ve confirmed that logistics will be one of the functions that will be consolidated in Minnesota. Will Days of Wonder and Asmodee games be stocked according to FFG’s policies, or vice versa? Will out-of-stocks for the three lines now be more like FFG’s have been in the past, or like Asmodee and Days of Wonder’s have been in the past?
[Laughing] We seem to touch on inventory policy each time we talk, Milton. We believe that FFG’s inventory levels and our reaction to demand has significantly improved, with the lion’s share of FFG’s 1,500+ SKU catalog being in stock at almost all times.
That said, like the weather, inventory management is local, with idiosyncratic problems related to the story of each product. X-Wing has been a huge success for us, and has pushed the capacity of first one, and now two factories; however, we’ve managed to have most of the core X-Wing SKU’s in stock for large portions of 2015 while growing the line to encapsulate the scope of the new movies. The same is true for many of FFG’s other mainstay products (and new major product like Star Wars: Imperial Assault, Star Wars: Armada, etc).
New product stock is notoriously difficult to predict. For example, the Game of Thrones LCG 2nd Edition Core Set sold out in the first few weeks, even though we produced nearly twice as many as the most recent LCG. Same with the Warhammer Quest Adventure Card Game--we printed a lot, but we simply underestimated demand and have been blown away by the extremely positive gamer reception to that title. On the flip side of the coin, we have been able to keep good supplies of other hot recent products, such as the X-Wing Force Awakens Core Set and Fury of Dracula.
As you know, the difficulty of anticipating new product demand is not unique to the FFG line. In this growth market, new product shortages happen frequently to all publishers. In terms of the Asmodee line, for example, this fall we ran out of both Mysterium and Seven Wonders: Duels in the first week, and we’re moving quickly to get more in stock.
In any stock-keeping business, inventory decisions can have a severe impact on your health. Just as distribution and retail must be careful in this area, we also need to have a balanced approach that will ensure a reasonable overall turn-rate while still serving markets. Obviously, we intend to keep making inventory investments that ensure we keep key core products in stock at most times, such as Ticket to Ride products, Seven Wonders, Dixit, Game of Thrones: The Board Game, X-Wing, Arkham Horror and others.
We’re seeing three distributors on the FFG list that will be eliminated--what about Asmodee, is it eliminating any distributors, and if so, which ones?
The business side of Asmodee, FFG, and DOW are being consolidated into the Asmodee North America business unit, so our distribution choices affect all the lines that we represent. In other words, ACD, Alliance, Southern Hobby, PHD, and GTS will represent hobby distribution for all our lines.
The publisher-to-retailer channel is new, correct?
No, it’s not new. Since the very beginning FFG has serviced retail accounts that wished to purchase direct. So, this represents a continuation of existing services. In most cases, it will make sense for specialty retailers to buy from our authorized distributors, but we’ll serve those retailers that prefer a direct relationship.
On allocated products, how will the allocations be divided between Asmodee-direct-to-retailer and sales through distributor channels?
We do not envision any significant difference in how this has been administered by FFG for years. We aim to be fair and transparent with all parties in allocation situations.
Last week, Asmodee announced that in a post-merger consolidation, business operations of Asmodee, Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) and Days of Wonder (DOW) will be consolidated into Asmodee North America (see "Asmodee, Fantasy Flight, Days of Wonder Consolidate"), and that terms of sale to the trade will be changing. ICv2 caught up with new Asmodee NA CEO Christian Petersen to learn more about the specifics of the deal. In Part 2, we discuss the company’s new terms and how they differ by channel, MAP, and online retailing. In Part 1, we discusded branding, marketing investments, organized play, stocking policies, and selling direct to retailers.
You’ve outlined new sales terms starting in April of next year. What was behind these changes? What does it mean when you say the new "sales terms provided to [specialty brick and mortar] retailers, relative to other channels, are positively reflective of the value they add to our distribution chain?" How are the new sales terms reflective of the additional value vs. other channels--price, other?
This is a key question. It is also a complex one. I will assume some readers are not well-versed in workings of the present games distribution mechanisms, so, I’ll "start from the top" in outlining what our new sales policies are about.
When we, or one of our publishing partners, start development of a game product, we do so with a conviction that the product will have a certain value to the gamer, the consumer. On the basis of this expected value, we invest in design, creative inputs, safety testing, manufacturing, marketing, licensing, and the many other aspects of successfully getting a game to market.
As part of that process, we engage in relationships with distribution and retail businesses that provide services in facilitating our road-to-market for the product, i.e. getting the product to the consumer. These parties take inventory risk, assist in communicating product benefits, and facilitate getting the physical product transacted to the consumer.
In return for services provided, we pay distributors and retailers in the form of trade discounts, this is their incentive to invest, and hopefully allows them to achieve success in their business.
I believe business partners who provide services and investment that we value, relative to others who do not, should receive proportional compensation from us so that they may succeed and continue in such activities.
In comparison to, for example, the online channel of sales, most specialty retailers make investments in areas we consider critical to the health and growth of the gaming hobby, such as a local presence, instant product availability, new customer generation, and crucially, in-store gaming events, demonstrations, tournaments, and organized play facilitation.
However, these unique services cost money.
Asmodee North America wants to fairly pay for these services, that is--issue a better trade discount--to those retailers who invest in such practices, as opposed to those retailers that do not.
In the present "one-size-fits-all system" of providing discounts to the hobby games market, we simply pay everyone for the services expected, without asking for representation as to such services actually being done. This has caused an increasingly dangerous distortion. Retailers that do not make those investments, especially online retailers, have increasingly leveraged this publisher-granted benefit into price reductions, undermining not only the core value proposition of the products, but directly harming those retailers providing the services for which the discounts partly were intended. Increasingly over the last 10 years, this has resulted in the publisher not receiving the expected services it is paying for by the discounts extended, and has created an unfair situation for the retailers that are making those investments.
So, how to fix this problem? After extensive deliberation, we determined the only practical approach is to cleanly identify which retail operations are dedicated to a certain channel of product availability and services. Once identified, we can pay them according to the services they give us in bringing the product to market.
In summary, for sound and fair reasons, we want to grant additional discounts to the brick-and-mortar specialty retailer for the unique work they provide, while not granting those discounts to the online specialty retailer given the fact they are not providing the same services or making the same investment.
What do you say to those that argue that online retail is a more efficient channel, one helped by technology that is able to bring product to consumers in a more price-effective manner?
Online retail is an amazing and valuable road to market. We recognize that and as a publisher we certainly want to keep this channel viable. However, it is primarily a mechanism to more efficiently effect transaction and delivery for an existing demand. The stage of transaction and delivery is only one part of the necessary market functions to have a successful sale to a happy consumer. Another function is communication of availability and benefit (fancy words for marketing) and the most important, and most difficult, function is the creation of demand. Without those others, the function of transaction and delivery will have no reason to exist.
At its core, the value of physical gaming products stems from the medium of shared play between people in the same location. A game is only as valuable as the customer’s ability to play it. Our products, in most cases, require players to connect with other people willing to share a gaming experience.
The most significant obstacle in the growth and perceived value of the gaming business is the need for players to find other players, and for new players to enter the hobby. I estimate that the hobby loses between 10 - 20% of its players every year, so the creation of new players into the hobby is vital for every participant to have a thriving marketplace and have exciting new products developed.
In this hectic digital age, it is evident, especially over the last 10 years, that audiences of niche markets have a growing need to connect with people that share the same interest. Some of these connections happen online (in the gaming niche via specialty game sites), but the phenomenon is also expressed in the meteoric rise in attendance at shows and conventions (such as Gen Con, San Diego Comic-Con, and others). Most significant, in our mind, is the rapidly growing game gatherings and events in thousands of independent hobby game stores worldwide every day.
Whether it be cooking, crafting, games, or other activities, we believe the next evolution in how people interact with each other in niche marketplaces to be increasing engagement with physical and local "third places" where people celebrate their interests, discover new products, and find new friends or participants. Related to games, these are services I feel that publishers must support in order to incubate demand for their products.
For a market to be efficient, it must internalize its true cost and be sustainable. In the case of the current hobby market, one channel (online) is relying significantly on the cost and investments of another channel (specialty retail). Our new sales policy seeks to reconcile where Asmodee North America is willing to pay (in the form of the wholesale discounts we extend) for the services we need for the creation of demand.
Are you going to institute any MAP ("Minimum Advertised Price") policies for online retailers? If so, what will the minimum price be?
No, for a number of reasons. One is the difficulty in enforcing MAP on the broad and mass markets. We would not want one market to be MAP-enforced and not another. Secondly and related to the first point, we’re advised that a number of state laws conflict with MAP, which could cause leaks in any MAP policy. There are also some practical considerations: what if a retailer wants to have temporary sale? What if a product doesn’t work and a retailer needs to clear the inventory? These are sensible practices that become controversial under MAP.
As mentioned earlier, our approach with these new sales policies is instead to give discount according to defined channel, meaning relative to the services and the value-add represented by the activity of the retailer. We see this as the best approach at this time. If necessary, we will consider a MAP policy in the future.
Does the Specialty Retail Policy cover specialty retail chains (e.g., Barnes & Noble)? If not, how do the Specialty Retail Policy terms differ from those given to specialty retail chains to reflect the additional value provided by stores that do OP, demos, and other services?
Broad and mass merchants, being Barnes and Noble, Target, Amazon, etc., are important players and obviously cannot be ignored as important outlets for our products. We categorize these in different channels, with different scale and cost of operations than that of specialty retail. Our job is to make sure that we can facilitate success in these markets that does not come at the expense of the success of brick and mortar specialty retailers or online specialty retailers.
Will the five distributors be selling to online retailers, or will the "appointed distributors acting under Asmodee North America’s related policy" be a different roster?
Online Specialty retailers will be required to deal directly with Asmodee North America, and will be subject to sales policies governing that channel. On a case-by-case basis, we may allow a distributor to service that relationship on our behalf and under the related policy.
Do sales to the military while deployed or college students while away at school (or home for the summer) constitute mail order under the terms, or only if it’s advertised?
Per the brick-and-mortar specialty retail policy, sales that are transacted outside the physical store are prohibited. We don’t see this as significant impediment to the consumer, as these examples are clearly best serviced by our authorized online sellers.
That said, our sales policies allow us to make exceptions as we deem sensible. Exceptions will likely apply to services provided to the military, educational, or charitable institutions.
What impact do you expect this change in policies to have on the online marketplace for products from the Asmodee companies?
We believe that online sales is a viable and important marketplace, and that some consumers either prefer to buy their games online, or do not have access to a high-quality brick-and-mortar gaming retail store. As a publisher, we obviously still want to serve those consumers. We expect to authorize a number of excellent online specialty dealers, and would expect our products to be easily found online.
It is reasonable to assume that product will still be discounted online; this makes sense as that channel has a number of disadvantages (such as product receipt delay, shipping expenses, etc.). However, given the fact that our trade discounts to the online channel have been aligned with the services they provide, it is likely that online discounts will not be as disproportional as they have been in the past relative to pricing (which includes the volume or loyalty discounts) offered by many brick-and-mortar retailers.
Do you expect the number of online retailers to decline?
Yes.
Note: Petersen declined to answer several questions related to the company’s reorganization that touched on human resources issues. We expect to revisit those questions in January to clarify some of the changes being made.
In summary, for sound and fair reasons, we want to grant additional discounts to the brick-and-mortar specialty retailer for the unique work they provide, while not granting those discounts to the online specialty retailer given the fact they are not providing the same services or making the same investment.
Do you expect the number of online retailers to decline?
Yes.
That's a lot of words to essentially restate what we'd already sussed out; they're using the BS "online retailers are parasites on Our Glorious FLGS Leaders and must be re-educated!" excuse to justify trade terms that allow them to structure their distribution to be favourable to big name chain retailers.
"Do you expect the number of online retailers to decline?
Yes. "
Still want to know if Warstore/CSI/MM will have them at discounts.
If not, I still see the board games seling just fine. Even at the retail level of around 80-100, you get your moneys worth. but for their miniature game lines (x wing, armada) I see them dieing off. I know for certain id sell off mine if I had to pay retail price, as sad as it would be
Yup, it's just a 1,000 word way of saying "We can push around the little guys but can't afford to go after the real discounters so we won't". Because the best way to protect stores from deep online discounters is to limit what those little stores can do while not touching those deep online discounters.
It's very strange thinking IMHO. I could see them carving out certain product lines (such as X-Wing), but lumping all the gaming catalogs together under the same umbrella is just going to cripple a lot of boardgame sales outside of Amazon (how many SKU's can big box stores really carry).
FWIW, Star Wars: Rebellion preorder prices have shot up at MM and CSI to $74.99 from $59.99 and $60.99 respectively. Could just be speculation on their part, but it certainly looks like the beginning of the price hikes is on its way.
Another large gaming company trying to control the market? Where have we seen that before...
Not a big fan of this move, and most brick and mortar stores I know also have an online store and sell on eBay. For a company to limit distribution and tell a store that they can only sell their product in a certain way for a certain price is stupid for the consumer and the store. I'm getting really sick of these companies that think they have such a unique and awesome product they can dictate terms of sale to the consumer. Guess what? As the consumer, I can choose not to buy their product, and that seems like a really good idea here.
Bombad wrote: FWIW, Star Wars: Rebellion preorder prices have shot up at MM and CSI to $74.99 from $59.99 and $60.99 respectively. Could just be speculation on their part, but it certainly looks like the beginning of the price hikes is on its way.
Wow, didn't know they had it going for that cheap.
I wouldn't say beginning of price hike though, if anything, a undervaluation on a product that will be sold out guaranteed. Their more recent 100$ board games (Imperial Assault/Forbidden Stars) are only slightly less. MMs standard is 25% off so it matches the norm to all their other products.
Christmas! 