Certain armies/formations are hated more than others, I believe it is because we as players do not take the time to learn everything about the game. We focus on 1 phase of the game and that is the shooting phase. We as players do not put in the effort to learn the rules thus we end up hating things we dont understand. There are 4 phases to this game and we pay attention to just one.

Perfect example of this is Tau. Players who do not know the rules get blown off the table by Tau because they only know the shooting phase and, they try to out shoot Tau. Tau has a better shooting phase than most armies and because of this strength in the quote on quote most important phase Tau gets a bad rep. Great players know exactly how to handle every army because they use every phase of the game and with Tau having such a obvious weakness that can be exploited which is why no top 8 at LVO for Tau despite a new codex.


Am I right about this, the armies with the best shooting phase is hated on the most?

One) Tau not making Top 8 at LVO is not proof they aren't good or have a crippling weakness. The fact is two Tau armies had no loses going into the final round only to lose it at the last second. They had the win-loss record to make Top 8 but only didn't because the armies in Top 8 had higher points. Considering all the random aspects there in tournaments (match-up pairings, Maelstrom objectives, dice rolls) Its clear Tau are a top competitive army.

Two) This has nothing to do with Tactics. You're just trying to get accuse people for hating on shooting armies or for not being good at the game.

The problem lays in the fact the shooting phase is the easiest. There are so many hurdle for an assault unit to get to the Tau sublime while on the other hand the Tau only has to be within their range. Random charge distances, overwatch, too many armies getting easy access to ignores cover and jump-shoot-jump or similar rules make assault a risky and hard thing to achieve.

This makes armies that are primarily assault based by fluff or design such as orks or daemons find tau very frustrating. High strength, moderate to good ap or rate of fire and easy access to ignores cover and bs modifiers makes them seem like they are breaking all the rules. That is we're the hate comes from

 CrownAxe wrote:
One) Tau not making Top 8 at LVO is not proof they aren't good or have a crippling weakness. The fact is two Tau armies had no loses going into the final round only to lose it at the last second. They had the win-loss record to make Top 8 but only didn't because the armies in Top 8 had higher points. Considering all the random aspects there in tournaments (match-up pairings, Maelstrom objectives, dice rolls) Its clear Tau are a top competitive army.

Two) This has nothing to do with Tactics. You're just trying to get accuse people for hating on shooting armies

You make alot of assumptions that do not make sense. I said that Tau has a better shooting phase than most armies and you consider that as me putting them down. Yes, Tau came close to top 8 and probably would have made Top 8 if it wasnt for people fearing Tau a shooty army and nerfing it via ITC voting system.

Which is why I want to get others opinion on why shooty armies are feared. If a discussion on the shooting phase is not tactical, what would you call it crownaxe?

It's because in this edition Shooting > Assault.

In previous editions Assault > Shooting. Rhino Rush was a thing which everyone hated.

As to why certain armies are hated more than others, it's because of different reasons but usually because they ignore game mechanics. Tau? Ignore Cover, don't often miss. Necrons? Don't die no matter what you shoot at them. Eldar? Super fast, can never seem to be in range, favouritism, D weapons. SM? Grav ignores armour saves and basically is a point and click weapon, while they can ally with a hell of a lot despite the fluff saying otherwise.

When you've got armies that can ignore not just lines, but pages and sometimes even sections of the mainrule book as well as the background, you've got a problem.

This is an over simplification. 4 phases include Movement Psychic, Shooting and Assault. The movement phase is harmless...the psychic phase for any army will never be as deadly as the shooting phase. and for units that are geared to preform in the assault phase they must endure at least one shooting phase, and are allowed to be attacked back even in their assault phase where they are meant to shine.

I rarely agree with CrownAxe but this is one of those times.

He's right since accusing other players of not knowing how to play the game when an army is clearly strong is condescending at best. Not to mention blaming people for only focusing on the Shooting Phase is a flawed assumption in of itself.

Let's take another example; the Scatterlaser Jetbike. On the surface it seems like this unit's primary reason for being strong is because of it's shooting, as a ton of S6 shots isn't something to laugh at. But that's not the perk of this unit.

No, the perk is just as much in the other phases of the game as it is in the shooting phase. A Jetbike moves fast in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase, making them exceedingly hard to catch. This is where their shooting weapon actually compliments their other attributes in other phases as well; the long range of the gun means that a Jetbike can comfortably sit outside of enemy range at all phases of the game while still doing damage, giving them significant buffer room against even other comparatively-fast units.

It is all of these factors that come together that makes a unit "broken" or extremely powerful. The Tau's power is actually something similar, in that their special rules allow them to either neglect or negate a phase or a game mechanic entirely. Markerlights takes away cover, Support Fire turns the enemy's assault phase into their shooting phase, and the Battlesuit's Jetpack status effectively turns their assault phase into an extra movement phase. This is on top of really powerful guns they already have. Like the Jetbike example above, any one of these would be a good benefit to an army, but combine it all at once and it results in something that feels like it broke the game (or is playing a completely different game than the one you are in this case).

 Frozocrone wrote:
As to why certain armies are hated more than others, it's because of different reasons but usually because they ignore game mechanics. Tau? Ignore Cover, don't often miss. Necrons? Don't die no matter what you shoot at them. Eldar? Super fast, can never seem to be in range, favouritism, D weapons. SM? Grav ignores armour saves and basically is a point and click weapon, while they can ally with a hell of a lot despite the fluff saying otherwise.

This. Or, more specifically, the perceptions this causes. Because an army has special rules A and B, people hate on it because they seem unfair, even though their army has different - and even equally good - special rules C and D. I've heard people compare two miles-apart units from two different armies (like wraithlords and scout marines) and complain that one is unfair, but without context it's an apples-to-oranges situation.

While there may be a few genuinely imbalanced things out there, far more impactful is player perception about balance.

Part of the problem is the frustration of feeling like your choices and actions have no meaning. Using Tau as an example, giving how easily they can gain ignores cover and boost their ballistic skill combined with an abundance of mid to high strength shots. Unless you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain suddenly many of my phases don't matter. There are examples of this in several other armies but this problem is why many players dislike playing certain lists/factions.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Part of the problem is the frustration of feeling like your choices and actions have no meaning. Using Tau as an example, giving how easily they can gain ignores cover and boost their ballistic skill combined with an abundance of mid to high strength shots. Unless you play with a lot of LOS blocking terrain suddenly many of my phases don't matter. There are examples of this in several other armies but this problem is why many players dislike playing certain lists/factions.

To add to this, SMS add to the situation.
"okay, I'm against a shooty army, I'll try to assault them" " They get to shoot you again then"
"damn, okay I'll grab some cover" "they ignore cover"
"feth, Alright, can't shoot what you can't see" "Actually, they can"


There are 2 problems with Tau from a gameplay perspective.
1. They are powerful, they are definitely more powerful than necrons competitively. On par with eldar.
2. They are frustrating, for the reasons above, there is no opponent interaction, seemingly no counterplay after list building, either you can take it, or you can't.

Necrons have the same issues.
1. Powerful, making it really hard to play anyone who isn't Marines/Eldar/Tau against them, without a really solid list.
2. Frustrating, they don't die, again, seemingly no counterplay. Either you brought a list with enough Dakka, or you didn't. You don't feel like you can tactically beat them, if they just stand on every objective and dont move.

Power Creep is a thing, and when it creeps on top tier armies like Eldar/Tau , it upsets people because those armies go above top tier.

The Eldar/Tau boost wasn't power creep so much as a power leap.

Overwatch is a serious issue. Have you ever been subject to Tau overwatch when you have an assault army? For them to use markerlights in overwatch, then their entire army gets to shoot an extra turn, mostly with twin-linked weapons, you might see why they are hated.

BTW, do we really need another "Tau aren't that bad" thread, when people get their opinions of Tau by playing Tau, not by listening to apologists?

 JimOnMars wrote:
Overwatch is a serious issue. Have you ever been subject to Tau overwatch when you have an assault army? For them to use markerlights in overwatch, then their entire army gets to shoot an extra turn, mostly with twin-linked weapons, you might see why they are hated.

BTW, do we really need another "Tau aren't that bad" thread, when people get their opinions of Tau by playing Tau, not by listening to apologists?

Its an army-wide ability like any other army has. I don't know why you are so bent out of shape about it. How is that any worse than Necrons getting army wide FnP? Or elder being able to run and shoot every turn?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I rarely agree with CrownAxe but this is one of those times.

He's right since accusing other players of not knowing how to play the game when an army is clearly strong is condescending at best. Not to mention blaming people for only focusing on the Shooting Phase is a flawed assumption in of itself.

If you are unable to identify the weakness of a unit is that not considered a lack of game knowledge? Well, I stand by that statement the typical player looks at the size of the gun and how much noise it can make more than anything else.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Let's take another example; the Scatterlaser Jetbike. On the surface it seems like this unit's primary reason for being strong is because of it's shooting, as a ton of S6 shots isn't something to laugh at. But that's not the perk of this unit.

What was the first example!!!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
No, the perk is just as much in the other phases of the game as it is in the shooting phase. A Jetbike moves fast in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase, making them exceedingly hard to catch. This is where their shooting weapon actually compliments their other attributes in other phases as well; the long range of the gun means that a Jetbike can comfortably sit outside of enemy range at all phases of the game while still doing damage, giving them significant buffer room against even other comparatively-fast units.

You are proving my point here by explaining why people fear shooty units. It starts off with "wow these guys can put out a lot of shots" than its "they are really fast to". However it always start with the shooting first if they did not have 3 scatter lasers they would not be used as much as proven by the previous Eldar Codex where they only had 1 scatter laser per 3. The movement is nice but without the shooting this unit would not be feared.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It is all of these factors that come together that makes a unit "broken" or extremely powerful. The Tau's power is actually something similar, in that their special rules allow them to either neglect or negate a phase or a game mechanic entirely. Markerlights takes away cover, Support Fire turns the enemy's assault phase into their shooting phase, and the Battlesuit's Jetpack status effectively turns their assault phase into an extra movement phase. This is on top of really powerful guns they already have. Like the Jetbike example above, any one of these would be a good benefit to an army, but combine it all at once and it results in something that feels like it broke the game (or is playing a completely different game than the one you are in this case).

Tau requires you to systematically take out the appropriate targets at the right time without proper target priority you will lose to players of lesser skill. If you keep shooting at riptides and not killing them while the marker light source remains unmolested you are doing it wrong, has nothing to do with Tau or any other shooty army being strong.

That makes no sense...tau requires skill to systematically take out targets but players of less skill can just shoot tau dead....if the tau player of higher skill doesn't shoot things? Shoot shoot shoot. Shooting phase....? You are disproving your own premise while failing to acknowledge other peoples responses.

Tau is the most shooty army in 40k batr none. But people shouldn't be concerned about their guns or supporting fire?

jeez this guy is still making threads complaining about the Tau nerf

I don't Tau. I hate Stormsurges and Riptides and Ghostkeels. MCs and GMCs OP.

 Tenzilla wrote:
The movement phase is harmless...

Spoken like a true Guard player

Shooty armies are 'hated' the most because as the non-shooty player, you're entirely passive. You're pretty much hoping that you roll well enough on your saves to make it across the table. Or cripple their shooting enough. Tau usually get this hate because of the quantity and quality of their shooting. The ability to markerlight things, tank hunter things etc makes their shooting the most potent. They get this hate because most tournament level Tau lists are 'one trick ponies'. They aim to dominate the first two shooting phases and then mop up the remainder to win the game.

A proper quality army should dominate a minimum of two of the four phases. Eldar consistently place well because they win in the movement and shooting phases, and can still bring enough psychic power to contest the psychic phase (against anything but Tzeentch). Against an army like Tau, they can dominate in the assault phase too.

Tau however, should always be the shootiest army on the table. Similarly, they will always be the least assault and psychic focused army on the table, the matchup is irrelevant. If you get into combat with Tau, and the game starts moving your way. Even if you don't win the combat, keeping a riptide/ghostkeel in combat for a game turn is a win. Tau's movement is on average, they have some mobility based units, but it's not a huge strength.

 Tenzilla wrote:
That makes no sense...?

People complaining about Tau makes no sense to me!

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
jeez this guy is still making threads complaining about the Tau nerf

This thread was meant to be about how over valued the shooting phase is but, it became about Tau because I used Tau as an example.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't Tau. I hate Stormsurges and Riptides and Ghostkeels. MCs and GMCs OP.

I think you listed every MC Tau has do you hate other armies MC also? If so could you list those also?

Again the problem for most armies and to the Tau's benefit is that the shooting phase this editions is the phase that wins the game. Assault is in bad shape outside deathstars, the Psychic phase is limited to a few builds to be decisive and Movement is mostly avoiding assault and setting up shooting. If you have an army that can pump out shots your in good shape. The only time movement really matters is maelstrom missions.

"do you hate other armies MC also?"

Pretty much. MC USR is way OP imo.

And yes, it's super frustrating to be shot to death while doing very little in return.

So the consensus is that shooty armies deserve the hate?

I don't know. Not much has to go right for shooting lists to win and a lot has to go right for assault lists to win. Lists that try to mix the two like traditional marine lists are also at a disadvantage I think.

I think a lot of the problem is MCs\GMCs, as Martel mentions.

Guard, for an example, are a shoot army but they bring tanks instead of MCs.

Tanks cannot:
Fire Overwatch
Fight back in combat
Move and shoot effectively (in most cases)

Tanks can:
Be easily killed with a single AP2 or 1 shot
Be disabled and forced to snapfire with almost every wound they take
Be hit always in combat in certain situations

notredameguy10 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Overwatch is a serious issue. Have you ever been subject to Tau overwatch when you have an assault army? For them to use markerlights in overwatch, then their entire army gets to shoot an extra turn, mostly with twin-linked weapons, you might see why they are hated.

BTW, do we really need another "Tau aren't that bad" thread, when people get their opinions of Tau by playing Tau, not by listening to apologists?

Its an army-wide ability like any other army has. I don't know why you are so bent out of shape about it. How is that any worse than Necrons getting army wide FnP? Or elder being able to run and shoot every turn?

You realise identifying the 3 more powerful armies in the game and saying "look tau isnt so bad compared to these guys" falls on deaf ears

Because Necrons having FNP doesn't table me. And the Riptide is ironically tougher than anything the Necrons have.

At this point since there's so much complaining on this site lately I'm just chalking it up to people taking the easy way out. It's always easier to cry and complain and claim something is overpowered then trying to find suitable ways to counter it. Seriously Martel? I get it you're biased towards the Riptide but claiming it's tougher than anything the Necrons have? Lol and you wonder why we don't take you seriously.

 gmaleron wrote:
At this point since there's so much complaining on this site lately I'm just chalking it up to people taking the easy way out. It's always easier to cry and complain and claim something is overpowered then trying to find suitable ways to counter it. Seriously Martel? I get it you're biased towards the Riptide but claiming it's tougher than anything the Necrons have? Lol and you wonder why we don't take you seriously.

I really don't care if you take me seriously. Name a Necron unit that is tougher than a Riptide, then.

A unit of 6 Wraiths for one (equal in points cost to a riptide kitted out) and that's not even taking the Decurian Formation shenanigans that can make them even tougher.

I was thinking single unit, like a Monolith or something.

But even Wraiths put themselves in more harm's way than the Riptide, so the Riptide might still end up being more durable in practice. I've certainly killed WAY more Wraiths than Riptides in my games.

At the end of the day, the games against Necrons are more interactive. With Tau, I'm just picking up the models the opponent points to, and I don't get to anything meaningful in return.

Quit comparing 2 overly powerful armies, if you want an idea of how powerful Tau is compare them to orcs or something, have fun finding equivalents then

Martel732 wrote:
At the end of the day, the games against Necrons are more interactive. With Tau, I'm just picking up the models the opponent points to, and I don't get to anything meaningful in return.

So it's the Tau players fault that you are not utilizing tactics properly to get meaningful results out of your battles? You do realize that there have been countless threads on this pointing out lots of good tactics to handle Riptides, and for some reason you keep ignoring it. I get it Blood Angels are not exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to Space Marines, instead of demanding Tau players cater to your book why not go out of your way to add stuff to your army to help with the problem. Adapt and overcome instead of constantly making unrealistic demands that will never happen to begin with, constructive thinking goes a long way.

Tau are way more powerful than Necrons. Tabling is the ultimate trump card in this game, and Necrons have basically zero chance of doing that.

Martel732 wrote:
Tau are way more powerful than Necrons. Tabling is the ultimate trump card in this game, and Necrons have basically zero chance of doing that.

Completely false but you can keep thinking that. Necrons are just as powerful as Tau just in different ways and they have the capability to table opponents just as easily.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At the end of the day, the games against Necrons are more interactive. With Tau, I'm just picking up the models the opponent points to, and I don't get to anything meaningful in return.

So it's the Tau players fault that you are not utilizing tactics properly to get meaningful results out of your battles? You do realize that there have been countless threads on this pointing out lots of good tactics to handle Riptides, and for some reason you keep ignoring it. I get it Blood Angels are not exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to Space Marines, instead of demanding Tau players cater to your book why not go out of your way to add stuff to your army to help with the problem. Adapt and overcome instead of constantly making unrealistic demands that will never happen to begin with, constructive thinking goes a long way.

Because the stuff that might help in the specific case of Tau backfires against the field of opponents in general. Especially now with Wulfen. Any chance I'd ever play an Angel's fury list went down the toilet with the Wulfen release.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tau are way more powerful than Necrons. Tabling is the ultimate trump card in this game, and Necrons have basically zero chance of doing that.

Completely false but you can keep thinking that. Necrons are just as powerful as Tau just in different ways and contabl opponents just as easily.

It's not false at all. The decurion at least can backfire on objective based tables. When only Tau models are left on the table, objectives don't matter at all.

Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

And no it is false, even on objective based tables. Necrons can bring a hell of a lot of firepower to bear along with their insane durability. Can't take objectives if you cannot get to them in the first place or already dead.

You know what i kind of smile about? People laughed at me when I showed up to the table with Tau Empire all the way until the 6E codex.

I understood, but i played it anyways and didn't even demand that their armies get nerfed when facing mine.

Reavas wrote:
Quit comparing 2 overly powerful armies, if you want an idea of how powerful Tau is compare them to orcs or something, have fun finding equivalents then

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Reavas wrote:

Reavas wrote:
Quit comparing 2 overly powerful armies, if you want an idea of how powerful Tau is compare them to orcs or something, have fun finding equivalents then

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At this point you're comparing a brand new book to an older book which goes a long way in explaining why one is so much more powerful than the other.

Seriously who's really complaining about shooty armies right now on the forum?

This thread is just another indirect shot at ITC nerfing Tau, OP can play it off however he wants. Who knows they might remove some of the nerfs later on down the line, but in the mean time if you don't want to play the ITC format then DON'T.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

They do obliterate riptides trust me I've been on the receiving end of that more times than I care to count anyone who thinks otherwise clearly is reaching. And guess what if you don't have them add them to your army, Imperial armies are one of the strongest in the game thanks to the tactical flexibility.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

They do obliterate riptides trust me I've been on the receiving end of that more times than I care to count anyone who thinks otherwise clearly is reaching. And guess what if you don't have them add them to your army, Imperial armies are one of the strongest in the game thanks to the tactical flexibility.

They are not reaching; do the math. It's gross and disgusting how the most OP gun in the game still can't reliably bring down Riptides. You need triple the points cost of grav centurions of the Riptide they are targeting to bring it down reliably.

I disagree wholeheartedly, being a Tau player every time a squad of three Grav Centurions has gotten in range my Riptide has been killed it's not a statistically impossible as you make it out to be. It's even worse with the mechanicum kataphrons to put out a whopping 18 shots that can be twin linked at 30 inch range for 165 points.

 gmaleron wrote:
I disagree wholeheartedly, being a Tau player every time a squad of three Grav Centurions has gotten in range my Riptide has been killed it's not a statistically impossible as you make it out to be. It's even worse with the mechanicum kataphrons to put out a whopping 18 shots that can be twin linked at 30 inch range for 165 points.

Kataphrons can be pretty cool.

 gmaleron wrote:
I disagree wholeheartedly, being a Tau player every time a squad of three Grav Centurions has gotten in range my Riptide has been killed it's not a statistically impossible as you make it out to be. It's even worse with the mechanicum kataphrons to put out a whopping 18 shots that can be twin linked at 30 inch range for 165 points.

The Kataphrons are glass cannons that frequently get off one shot and then die horribly. The game is much different when you are playing against models that can actually be hurt.

Was it a Centstar or just 3 generic centurions? Because without ignores cover, centurion's chances of downing a Riptide, or anything else tough, go way down.

It's always a Centstar, everyone at my FLGS always plays very strong or competitive lists. And they are glass cannons however if they can bring down a riptide in a single turn of shooting then they already got their points back. And I agree it is different when a unit can be killed and a riptide can be killed really easily when there are multiple units of these on the board courtesy of them being a cheap troops choice.

 gmaleron wrote:
It's always a Centstar, everyone at my FLGS always plays very strong or competitive lists. And they are glass cannons however if they can bring down a riptide in a single turn of shooting then they already got their points back.

Your Riptide can fire outside their range, so I don't see how they ever get the shots off.

Invisibility is a crutch that works vs the Tau, but you can only protect a few units, and they can murder everything else.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
It's always a Centstar, everyone at my FLGS always plays very strong or competitive lists. And they are glass cannons however if they can bring down a riptide in a single turn of shooting then they already got their points back.

Your Riptide can fire outside their range, so I don't see how they ever get the shots off.

Invisibility is a crutch that works vs the Tau, but you can only protect a few units, and they can murder everything else.

1. Gate of Infinity

2. Centstar is really the only thing that needs to be protected while they gate around wiping your army out left and right. Usually they'll reserve the rest of their army, to contest objectives later on and hopefully by them the Star should have wiped out much of your fire power.

I was talking about the cataphron things with the range comment.

I know centstars use gate of infinity.

Martel732 wrote:
I was talking about the cataphron things with the range comment.

I know centstars use gate of infinity.

You should kinda read up on the top tourney meta and army lists dude. Geoff "InControl" Robinson's top LVO list contains 3 drop pods from the BA formation, he put the gravtaphons in them so he can take out priority targets and it doesn't matter if they die the next time as long as they make their points back. And Grav cannon is same range as the SMS and 6" shorter than the burst cannon, its not too much of a struggle than compared to fighting against Eldar scatter bikes.

I can careless if ITC get rid of most of the Tau nerfs, as long as they keep the Drone Factory nerf. Drama threads like this are meaningless, and gets annoying.

 CKO wrote:
Players who do not know the rules get blown off the table by Tau because they only know the shooting phase and, they try to out shoot Tau.

What kind of knowledge could help a footslogging ork army against a tau gunline in 6-th edition? If you can answer this without "get 100% blos in the middle of the board", i'm intrigued.
And before you say that footslogging ork army is not valid from the get go, well, it used to be valid before 6-th tau and eldar codexes that triggered the shooting escalation.
Maybe you SHOULD play it out first and than make such statements? You know, we like challenges here Prove your point with action. Do a batrep of how you can 'know the rules' and outplay an average tau player running something like a footslogging horde yourself.

Shooting armies get hate because they're both boring and easy to win with.

I'm talking Necrons, Eldar, Tau, and razorback spam Gladius marines.

They plunk their models down on the table, then proceed to not move at all as they sit and pick targets.

Guard was unpopular for the exact same reason when they were strong. Gunlines just suck, and people have to accept that if they play a pure gunline with 100% highly durable/highly mobile long ranged weaponry, nobody's going to want to play them.

The guard are a shooting phase army and no one really hates them.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Dear lord just stop. It has already been proven that grav DOES destroy riptides. Jeez.

 tau tse tung wrote:
The guard are a shooting phase army and no one really hates them.

That was very different in 5th though.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Dear lord just stop. It has already been proven that grav DOES destroy riptides. Jeez.

Proven by whom? The anti-math league? With a toe in ruins and the fnp upgrade, it takes 15 grav wounds to kill a riptide. That's every shot from a centurion squad hitting and wounding. That's not very likely. It gets worse with the nova shield. So we are talking psyker buffs or another squad being necessary. That's nuts on a model as cheap as the riptide. And for what it does, the riptide is super cheap.

That explains the hate.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Dear lord just stop. It has already been proven that grav DOES destroy riptides. Jeez.

Proven by whom? The anti-math league? With a toe in ruins and the fnp upgrade, it takes 15 grav wounds to kill a riptide. That's every shot from a centurion squad hitting and wounding. That's not very likely. It gets worse with the nova shield. So we are talking psyker buffs or another squad being necessary. That's nuts on a model as cheap as the riptide. And for what it does, the riptide is super cheap.

That explains the hate.

Lol so let me get this straight. 4 grav cents, which are the same price as a riptide, will kill it in one single round of shooting and you are saying thats not an effective method. Sure lol

Martel732 wrote:
Because the stuff that might help in the specific case of Tau backfires against the field of opponents in general. Especially now with Wulfen. Any chance I'd ever play an Angel's fury list went down the toilet with the Wulfen release.

Really? Stormstrike missiles, TL-Multimelta, and TL-AC are all going to wreck Wulfen. You can easily kill 4-5 in one turn of shooting.

The Tacs themselves can stick on about ~5 wounds between Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Bolt Pistols, and charging. The Wulfen themselves are going to kill about ~2 Tacs. After this the whole thing devolves into a slapfight where the Tacs have Objective Secured, the Wulfen don't, and they fulfill their job of winning VPs and absorbing damage so your elite units can act elsewhere.

Going back to Riptides, 10x Tacs in a flying assault vehicle don't need Grav Cannons, they can kill a Riptide with a Vet Sarge Thunderhammer and Krak Grenades. And obviously they are a lot safer in CC. Why wouldn't you take advantage of that?

Krak grenades can't be counted on to do anything to a riptide.

I agree with Martel. When SW got I5 always on and AP2 no less, Strength 8 as well for ID purposes, utterly killed my love for BA in 40k. Still play it 30k and maybe if they get a new 40k Codex I'll revisit, but at the moment I'm going to focus on my Tau, Tyranids and Orks.

 tau tse tung wrote:
The guard are a shooting phase army and no one really hates them.

Exactly. The difference...Imperial Guard aren't known for copious amounts of Low AP Ignores Cover shooting. At least when IG was blowing you off the table, you got to roll saves. That difference matters...

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Seriously? Grav cannons would obliterate riptides and would actually be pretty decent against wulfen especially with the grav amp giving rerolls, a 4+ to wound is not terrible by any means. Plasma would be great against wulfen as well along with melta so I fail to see the sense of your argument there.

Actually, grav cannons don't obliterate Riptides, particularly if they have their toe in a ruins. Angel's Fury doesn't have grav cannons. BA dont' have access to grav cannons at all. Most Angel's fury lists won't have much plasma or melta either.

Dear lord just stop. It has already been proven that grav DOES destroy riptides. Jeez.

Proven by whom? The anti-math league? With a toe in ruins and the fnp upgrade, it takes 15 grav wounds to kill a riptide. That's every shot from a centurion squad hitting and wounding. That's not very likely. It gets worse with the nova shield. So we are talking psyker buffs or another squad being necessary. That's nuts on a model as cheap as the riptide. And for what it does, the riptide is super cheap.

That explains the hate.

Lol so let me get this straight. 4 grav cents, which are the same price as a riptide, will kill it in one single round of shooting and you are saying thats not an effective method. Sure lol

4 Gravcents are 320 points and have 24" guns. Pretty sure Riptides are not 320 points.

Martel732 wrote:
Krak grenades can't be counted on to do anything to a riptide.

If you have 9 Krak Genades (assaulting with concussive):

9(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) = That's 0.5W, after FNP that's 0.33W.

Do you really expect to remove it in one round? Nope.

Between a TH, Krak, and failed Nova saves all that damage adds up over time., Meanwhile it's Obsec slapfighting non-Obsec.

If you really want "declare attack, remove", get D weapons and roll 6's.

You know what I just diced this out.

- 1W from Grav (for concussive)
- 1W from failed Nova
- 2W from TH
- 1W from Tacs (Krak was saved, S5 normal attacks rolled 1-1)
- Riptide rolled 2 hits, 1 wound, removed 1 Tac Marine.

So that's a little too efficient, now your Tacs aren't hiding in assault. Oops. But do you see my point?

People who count on losing usually get the results they expect!

Naked ASM or Tacs, even BA, lose CC to a Riptide.

Give them a weapon - even a MeltaBomb - though, and things are different.

A vet sarge with a Power Axe?
On the charge, non-BA:
4x(2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 16/27 wounds/round, which should about tie things up. But won't kill it too quickly (when combined with the rest of the squad).

BA:
4x(2/3)(1/2)(2/3), or 8/9 wounds. With the other ASM, should win combat.

Power Sword gets chumped, though. No better than a standard guy.

Power Maul isn't terrible: 4x(2/3)(1/2)(1/6) is 4/9. Not good, not bad.

Now, a Power Axe ASM sarge typically risks getting chumped against any other target. And sticking a TH or PF and Vet on the Sarge makes that 10man even more expensive (210/205 for 10 ASM, 180/175 for Tacs), so you're still spending as much as a Riptide to try to eat it in CC over several rounds. Assuming a substantial number make it into CC.

So its abojt the same number of points, needs to make it into CC before it shuts down the Riptdie, and needs to not lose too many guys getting there. And, even once there, can still lose CC (just not too likely). While the Riptide has 2-3 rounds to do what it wants first.

Tide does what it wants for 2-3 rounds, both units then get tied up for 2-3 rounds in CC, then the ASM or Tags have 1-2 rounds to have any other impact.

That isn't ASM or Tacs countering a Riptide. That's a Riptide countering ASMs or Tacs kitted for killing it. It gets the better end of the deal. Its just that it usually does so much better.

Tacs shouldn't be kitted to kill Riptides. Try working in a Force Axe instead.

The point was that even Krak Grenades can stick on 1-2 wounds over multiple rounds of combat.

They're not effective but little things can add up.

Keep in mind that trading fire with Grav Cannons isn't necessarily a winning strategy. It's not like a Riptide is obliged to politely stay out of CC either -- that Grav Cannon isn't going to wound much when it's being used as a club.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Exactly. The difference...Imperial Guard aren't known for copious amounts of Low AP Ignores Cover shooting. At least when IG was blowing you off the table, you got to roll saves. That difference matters...

You clearly have never faced a foot guard army with lots of cheap heavy or special weapon teams with orders that can ignore cover so no Imperial Guard have access to low AP ignores shooting, quite a lot in fact.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Tacs shouldn't be kitted to kill Riptides. Try working in a Force Axe instead.

The point was that even Krak Grenades can stick on 1-2 wounds over multiple rounds of combat.

They're not effective but little things can add up.

Keep in mind that trading fire with Grav Cannons isn't necessarily a winning strategy. It's not like a Riptide is obliged to politely stay out of CC either -- that Grav Cannon isn't going to wound much when it's being used as a club.

Is Riptide a character? I'm not aware because no one is idiotic enough to run drones with it.

If it is, it will challenge out that axe. Probably kill it.

It can't challenge, it's just a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

Point taken, not a MC (Character) though.

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

They absolutely can. I play Daemons, and challenging people with my Biomancy DP is one of the few joys in 40k I get

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

That was 6th, 7th removed that. Riptides can't challenge.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It can't challenge, it's a MC

And obviously that's the value of the Tacs -- they can eat challenges and S6 AP2 CC relatively cheap.

Elite units are going to lose more points.

MC can challenge, trust me I know; I have fought daemons enough.

They absolutely can. I play Daemons, and challenging people with my Biomancy DP is one of the few joys in 40k I get

There are few times I use my DK shunt to get away from something but a full-powered DP is one of them.

EDIT: People, I was asking if it was a character. Any character can challenge, MC or not.

Force Axe will do the job. It's getting it there that's the hard part

There are Character MCs (Demons, Wraithlords), but Riptides are not characters, and thus cannot challenge.

Even with that Power Axe, the Marines aren't winning combat by much.

But what about Podding near them with cheap squads?

If you put a Grav Cannon on a Tac in a 5man, even if he Interceptors with a pie plate, it hits all 5, and there is no cover, the Grav Cannon still has a 60% chance to survive. Throw in even a 6+, or prevent him from putting the pie plate over all 5 (spread out), and it survives. That's 3 Grav shots. Or a Grav Gun for 2 shots.

If you do GC/GG/Combi, that's 7 shots, provided 3 survive (should be doable - even a 6+ makes it very, very likely). That's a lot of points to just ding a Riptide, but it should put a dent in:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) means (10/27) wounds/shot. So you do about 3W to the riptide from the squad. Combat squadded means you also have a Pod and 2 small MEQ squads in your enemy's face. He will shoot them off the table, sure, but that is firepower he can't use elsewhere. And more than trivial firepower.

So you just spent around 235 pts to do a bit over half a Riptide's HP, and force your opponent to respond to those threats.

Might slow them down and do enough damage to be an overall success, but that seems to be the best a podded Tac squad can do about a Riptide.

Bharring wrote:
There are Character MCs (Demons, Wraithlords), but Riptides are not characters, and thus cannot challenge.

Even with that Power Axe, the Marines aren't winning combat by much.

But what about Podding near them with cheap squads?

If you put a Grav Cannon on a Tac in a 5man, even if he Interceptors with a pie plate, it hits all 5, and there is no cover, the Grav Cannon still has a 60% chance to survive. Throw in even a 6+, or prevent him from putting the pie plate over all 5 (spread out), and it survives. That's 3 Grav shots. Or a Grav Gun for 2 shots.

If you do GC/GG/Combi, that's 7 shots, provided 3 survive (should be doable - even a 6+ makes it very, very likely). That's a lot of points to just ding a Riptide, but it should put a dent in:
(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) means (10/27) wounds/shot. So you do about 3W to the riptide from the squad. Combat squadded means you also have a Pod and 2 small MEQ squads in your enemy's face. He will shoot them off the table, sure, but that is firepower he can't use elsewhere. And more than trivial firepower.

So you just spent around 235 pts to do a bit over half a Riptide's HP, and force your opponent to respond to those threats.

Might slow them down and do enough damage to be an overall success, but that seems to be the best a podded Tac squad can do about a Riptide.

I dunno at that point I think if you're going with the idea of just forcing the Riptide to respond to threats and hoping to kill them with some luck, you may as well throw two pods worth of Assault Centurions into the battleline.

Its more that they need to handle it. Each squad is a big enough deal where if they don't kill them, they can do things. For instance, the Cannon will probably finish the Riptide on its own next round, if ignored. And, the Riptide doesn't have its main gun, as he used it for Interceptor.

And the pod and Marines are ObSec.

Tau can reserve the Riptides if a lot if Grav is incoming.

Bharring wrote:
Its more that they need to handle it. Each squad is a big enough deal where if they don't kill them, they can do things. For instance, the Cannon will probably finish the Riptide on its own next round, if ignored. And, the Riptide doesn't have its main gun, as he used it for Interceptor.

And the pod and Marines are ObSec.

Ehhh what about the other interceptors in the army?

Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Here's the 12th place LVO finisher:

CAD
- Ethereal
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- Y'varna: EW and VT
- Tetra
- 3 broadsides with Shasve upgrade, x2 EW X1 Target Lock
- 1 Stormsurge with Shield and EW

Riptide Wing
- Riptide: EWO, VT
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO

Drop Podding is gonna be a very tough fight...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Welcome to being HPed out by autocannon town! Just like the rest of us.

Nevermind...not worth it

the_scotsman wrote:
Shooting armies get hate because they're both boring and easy to win with.

I'm talking Necrons, Eldar, Tau, and razorback spam Gladius marines.

They plunk their models down on the table, then proceed to not move at all as they sit and pick targets.

Guard was unpopular for the exact same reason when they were strong. Gunlines just suck, and people have to accept that if they play a pure gunline with 100% highly durable/highly mobile long ranged weaponry, nobody's going to want to play them.

heh. especially when the Necron player in my group does literally that exact thing: puts his three objectives on the edge of his deployment zone, as close together as legally permitted, plops down his 3-6 monoliths (depending on size of game), bubblewraps it all into a box formation, and doesn't move. leaving my footslogging Orks to walk up through a flury of pie plates. Thankfully, I usually only need about 1/3 of my army to MAKE it to him...but then I've got reanimation and lych guard/lords to deal with too. It's boring.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Either way it would be a good change.

"The movement phase is harmless"

*Proceeds to move 500 cultists individually*

"The movement phase is harmless-physically-but mentally..."

Arson Fire wrote:
Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

The Tyranid monstrous creatures are really not that bad, in fact they are just over costed slightly for what you get for them now. The real strength of the Tau is the units that support the Riptide, not the Riptide itself, which explains why its effectiveness is pretty much cut in half with the loss of marker lights alone.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Seriously who's really complaining about shooty armies right now on the forum?

This thread is just another indirect shot at ITC nerfing Tau, OP can play it off however he wants. Who knows they might remove some of the nerfs later on down the line, but in the mean time if you don't want to play the ITC format then DON'T.

 koooaei wrote:
What kind of knowledge could help a footslogging ork army against a tau gunline in 6-th edition? If you can answer this without "get 100% blos in the middle of the board", i'm intrigued.

I can and a lot of other players like me can and I will share my knowledge/opinion on footslogging orks because you requested it!

 koooaei wrote:
And before you say that footslogging ork army is not valid from the get go, well, it used to be valid before 6-th tau and eldar codexes that triggered the shooting escalation.

No matter what game you play the meta will change and it is up to you to either adapt or lose! You cannot prevent new codexes from coming out those things are out of your control but you do have control over what you can bring to the table to counter the new codex!

 koooaei wrote:
Maybe you SHOULD play it out first and than make such statements? You know, we like challenges here Prove your point with action. Do a batrep of how you can 'know the rules' and outplay an average tau player running something like a footslogging horde yourself.

All in due time I will eventually make battle reports and all that jazz but for now all I have is the forums. I have an ability that a lot of great players have when it comes to this game we can look at your list and dismantle it before the game even starts! I will use this ability to show you how orks can beat this Top 12 Tau list from LVO! Yes, Kenpachi does love challenges!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Here's the 12th place LVO finisher:

CAD
- Ethereal
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- 5 Breachers with EMP
- Devilfish with sms
- Y'varna: EW and VT
- Tetra
- 3 broadsides with Shasve upgrade, x2 EW X1 Target Lock
- 1 Stormsurge with Shield and EW

Riptide Wing
- Riptide: EWO, VT
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO
- Riptide: Ion Accelerator, EWO

Drop Podding is gonna be a very tough fight...

First thing off the bat only 1 marker light source in the form of a Tetra. If you take that out Riptides have no ignore cover! With only 1 marker light source that means cover is actually good against this army. So you place as many of your objectives in cover get all 30 boys into cover and when they shoot go to ground! Also include pain boys to give the unit feel no pain. Scared little voice decides to speak, "But Kenpachi their weapons ignore cover and deny feel no pain".

This is not true as they cant do both at the same time without marker lights! The riptides large blast cannot ignore cover without that Tetra unit and this list only has one tetra unit should be an easy target. Secondly smart missiles against orks is not that great if they have feel no pain because of their t 4 on average a smart missile forces 2 saves if you have feel no pain you are good to go!

Now I will get to the meat of the subject! First and foremost take the force field fortification or whatever its called, it will greatly reduce the alpha strike potentially of all armies. Secondly Kommandos, Stormboyz, warbikes are all units that can get to them quickly and they will focus fire power on them, while your mvp does all the hard work! The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

With infiltrate, 2d6 run, and bikes he cant focus on the boyz who are on the objectives or the lootas because the cheap assault units are to close for comfort. You can kill the tetra with the infiltrating kommandos because I believe it has armor 10 and 2 hp if you spend 10 points to get 2 rokkits combine that with str 4 shots you will most likely kill it. Bikes have a 3+ cover save on the turn that they turbo-boast combine that with the ability to spread out templates should not hurt them as much.

Shoot your lootas at the broadside units they must go first because they have both smart-missiles and 4 str 7 shots they hurt bad. 2 large squad of lootas should be able to take them out no problem it might require 3 depending on how bad or good they roll. Once that thing is gone focus on the stormsurge. It only has t6 and a 3+ followed by a 5+ you can kill it with lootas!

All you have to do is swarm the objectives with 30 bodies that are t 4 and have feel no pain! Let the lootas do the heavy work until your fast units can get into cc, the lootas will be protected by void shields and cover. The best part is if they focus to much on you lets say the Stormsurge says he is going to target the lootas with 3-5 shooting attacks go to ground, you can still fire snap shots your bs was only 2 anyways!

When you charge, try to charge all units on the same turn and don't forget to yell WAAAGH! You are yelling because with that word you just said you get to run and than charge don't forget that stormboyz run 2d6! The first unit to charge should be the unit that has taken the most wounds. That way you force his hand with over watch he must do it or lose it! That cheap deffkopta with a buzzsaw has another purpose now! Because the riptides in this formation are so close because they want to take advantage of Networked Reactors or they are at the same spot because they cant move the turn they shoot twice. Do one massive melee your power claws and mass str 4 attacks should win combat hopefully you catch them if you didn't kill them.

That's how a foot slooging ork army can beat a gunline! This could be made easier with tankbustas in trukks or the use of battlewagons but I digress.

 gmaleron wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

The Tyranid monstrous creatures are really not that bad, in fact they are just over costed slightly for what you get for them now. The real strength of the Tau is the units that support the Riptide, not the Riptide itself, which explains why its effectiveness is pretty much cut in half with the loss of marker lights alone.

Being effectively unkillable is a pretty good strength... Yes, we can all quote numbers of things that will down a Riptide, but in a real game it's hard to bring those kinds of numbers of weapons to bear. So you kill the markerlights and hope the Tau player doesn't roll many "HIT"s. Pretty weak, imo. Every "strategy" against Tau seems to involve praying that they roll poorly. Doesn't seem fun at all.

 Swampmist wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.

No, they can just fly: meaning they negate blasts/flamers, only are hit on 6s, and can move as a FMC

I don't know. I'm a lot more afraid of Wraiths than I am of a Riptide. 12 wounds with 3++, T5, 12" movement, ignore terrain, S6, and has rending is a lot more scary than a Riptide with 5 wounds, 2+ armor, 5++, T6, 6" movement, Jetpack, with 3 S7 (or S9, Large Blast) or 12 Rending S6 shots (plus secondary weapons).

I'll take the more durable and faster Wraiths any day. They can threaten more things and provide board presence. Riptides have to keep falling back in order to get their shots in and avoid shots.

As for the overall discussion, I'm not afraid of shooting. I'm more afraid of a string of advanced rules or combined psychic powers. Like Eldar Wrap Spiders or Seer councils. Or even SW Wolfstars with DA Bike supports. The amount of rules a single deathstar can add on to is hilarious.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Except tyranid MCs dont have a 2+/5++(or 3++ with nova charge)/5+++. Also, if you havent noticed, the good tyranid lists bring Basically nothing but MCs and lictors and rippers for objectives.

No, they can just fly: meaning they negate blasts/flamers, only are hit on 6s, and can move as a FMC

Only one of the Tyranid MCs is flying, and that is one of the two that are actually seen in competative lists. I was more speaking of those not named the Flyrant or Mawlok

It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Saythings wrote:
I don't know. I'm a lot more afraid of Wraiths than I am of a Riptide. 12 wounds with 3++, T5, 12" movement, ignore terrain, S6, and has rending is a lot more scary than a Riptide with 5 wounds, 2+ armor, 5++, T6, 6" movement, Jetpack, with 3 S7 (or S9, Large Blast) or 12 Rending S6 shots (plus secondary weapons).

I'll take the more durable and faster Wraiths any day. They can threaten more things and provide board presence. Riptides have to keep falling back in order to get their shots in and avoid shots.

As for the overall discussion, I'm not afraid of shooting. I'm more afraid of a string of advanced rules or combined psychic powers. Like Eldar Wrap Spiders or Seer councils. Or even SW Wolfstars with DA Bike supports. The amount of rules a single deathstar can add on to is hilarious.

Yes, Deathstars are very nasty. There's no denying that.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Imagine how less hate their would be if the Riptide was a 12/12/12 walker with 3 hull points and 5+ Invuln save...

...the problem is MC/GMC, not the riptide itself.

Tyranids must be the most broken army in the game then.
13 different types of MC in the codex. Another 6 or so available from other sources. 4 different GCs. That's a heck of a lot of types of MC/GC.
They must be completely unstoppable.

So yes. The problem is clearly MCs, and not just riptides. Clearly.

Their weapons are short range and they don't come with an invulnerable as standard and the option to buy FnP, they have to roll for those benefits.

Is it really telling that nid lists contain a lot of MCs?
That's like saying it's telling that IG lists contain a lot of vehicles.
Nids bring mostly MCs in their lists because they have mostly MCs in their codex. Where other armies have vehicles, they have MCs.

My point was just that it's silly to say MCs are broken when the vast majority of them range from totally fine, to some so bad they rarely even see casual play.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Well, yes.
But imagine if they were T9 W9 2++ FnP(2+) GMCs? They'd be better than Eldar.

The fact is even with their MCs they are a lackluster army power-wise. If MCs were truly as OP as Martel & others claim they are Nids would be top dog.
Funny how they aren't.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is telling that the best Nid lists (despite the age of the dex) are mostly MCs, yes.

Imagine if they were 10/10/10 walkers with 2 HPs, they'd be worse than CSM.

Well, yes.
But imagine if they were T9 W9 2++ FnP(2+) GMCs? They'd be better than Eldar.

The fact is even with their MCs they are a lackluster army power-wise. If MCs were truly as OP as Martel & others claim they are Nids would be top dog.
Funny how they aren't.

You know what Martel means. Martel complains about the MCs that shouldn't be MCs: Riptides, Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Castellan Robots, Dreadknights, etc.

He complains about all MCs, not just those that shouldn't be MCs (though he does complain about them the most, and for the most part that's well-founded).

Even Tyranid MCs are more durable than vehicles of equivalent cost. And fight back in HTH. And don't have a damage table. And get an armor save. And get free AP2. And get access to S10.

": Riptides, Wraithknights, Stormsurges, Castellan Robots, Dreadknights, etc."

Yes, these are far worse than Tyranid MCs, but it doesn't change the fact that the MC USR is stupid powerful. Especially compared to crappy vehicles in 7th ed.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He complains about all MCs, not just those that shouldn't be MCs (though he does complain about them the most, and for the most part that's well-founded).

Some of the pseudo MCs shouldn't even be walkers... The Riptide could be a T6 Jump infantry.

The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

The reason people rage about MC > Walkers is both because Walker rules are lousy (they should tap into Super rules imho, ignore damage charges except Explode and only take D3 damage so it might survive) and the main MCs you see are Riptides, Ghostkeels, Dreadknights, and Wraithlords.
Wraithlords are probably the tamest of the 4, high as hell toughness being a problem but hes not ungodly powerful either (least not that ive seen). Other 3 are insanely better than Nid MCs, which is suppose to be the army that defines MCs.

The general MC rules are pretty damn tame on their own. Giving something MC status is usually bad unless you rework a ton of rules/stats to go with it. For instance, if Ghazzy went to MC status but didnt get exceptions for transports/joining a unit he'd be arguably worse off than he already is.

concerning the "pseudo mcs" ive always felt they should be labeled Mechanical Monstrous Creatures (nonMC being Crisis Suits/Broadsides/Commanders/Hazards). Immune to poison, but vulnerable to Haywire on a 2+ and AP2 on a 5 regardless of the weapon's profile. In addition, melta weapons in 2D6 pen range cause 2 wounds instead of 1. They arent walkers, but theyre still a machine. Necron Canopteks would fall under this category too, as would the Stormsurge/Ta'unar albeit with GMC rules too.

Note: i said ap2 regardless of the weapon profile because afaik there isnt any Haywire that even has an AP at all. Y'vahra causes haywire in addition to its S8 AP3 shots, the Haywire doesnt have an AP.
EDIT: Also, Mechanical Creatures and up (thats nonMC variants included) are immune to Fleshbane but each Armorbane causes 2 wounds. Same idea as immune to Poison since theyre a machine so Fleshbane shouldnt work, and Melta causing extra damage so Armorbane should too.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

You mean like all those gigantic robots stomp through armour ? (sentinels/dragoon/stalkers}
When the precedent is for big robots without equally big melee weapons, to be unable to crunch through armour, then why stould another big robot with no weapon do it?

That being said, fluff wise, I agree gigantic robots should ignore armour, all of them, I'm pretty sure a sentinel could punt some tactical marines across the table!

You mean Necron Spyders, right? Crypteks are a Infantry HQ choice.

But yeah I've always felt that would be a good idea.
Combine it with giving all vehicles a Toughness value and save (or at the very least a save) and it'd be golden.

thought Crypteks were the type of unit Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs were? thats what i meant. They arent Necrons, theyre a legit machine with Necron tech but they arent a "Necron"

The only time I complained about a unit was when helldrakes first came out and no one had true anti-tank at the time.

I see there is extreme prejudice towards certain units that are not available in imperial codexes. I believe the only MC that Imperials have is the dreadknight.

However Imperials have access to the best weapon in the game, grav guns and no one complains about grav!

Yeah he is. Even in FW they dont have any others, but they do have some walkers that actually WORK thanks to good invuls and nasty guns. Though, expensive as balls (Leviathan i bought for a BA friend for xmas was a chunk over 100 lol ouch)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
thought Crypteks were the type of unit Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs were? thats what i meant. They arent Necrons, theyre a legit machine with Necron tech but they arent a "Necron"

That would be Canoptek, not Cryptek.

 CKO wrote:
The only time I complained about a unit was when helldrakes first came out and no one had true anti-tank at the time.

I see there is extreme prejudice towards certain units that are not available in imperial codexes. I believe the only MC that Imperials have is the dreadknight.

However Imperials have access to the best weapon in the game, grav guns and no one complains about grav!

What are you talking about? Lots of people complain about Grav

no one complains about grav!

Nobody thinks grav is balanced, It's just the best answer to other imbalanced stuff. Grav is power creep in a nutshell.

And ALL us xeno races complain about grav.

Also,

No matter what game you play the meta will change and it is up to you to either adapt or lose! You cannot prevent new codexes from coming out those things are out of your control but you do have control over what you can bring to the table to counter the new codex!

First you say Shooting isn't better, and people need to learn to play,
Then someone points out that tau will blow an ork horde off the table and you answer, the meta changes and things become stronger, adapt.
Well you are right, the meta changed, and Tau sit atop it with eldar.

You can't blame your opponent for not countering you when you have the best toys.

If someone brings a phantom titan, when you can only bring kroot, Is it fair for them to say "you only lost because I out played you"

Tau are powerful, and will always have the odds in their favor unless the opponent pulls out every stop for a power list.
It happened when necrons came out , it happened when eldar came out, and it will happen for tau until power creep catches up.
The Truth is, Tau ARE more powerful than most armies, and saying it's the other generals fault he lost, despite the power difference is just rude.

harkequin wrote:

no one complains about grav!

Nobody thinks grav is balanced, It's just the best answer to other imbalanced stuff. Grav is power creep in a nutshell.

And ALL us xeno races complain about grav.

Are you saying the community is full of complainers? Xeno players complain about Grav while the Imperials complain about Monstrous Creatures.

harkequin wrote:
irst you say Shooting isn't better, and people need to learn to play,
Then someone points out that tau will blow an ork horde off the table and you answer, the meta changes and things become stronger, adapt.
Well you are right, the meta changed, and Tau sit atop it with eldar.

I also posted this in the very same post! Where I tell the player how ork hordes could beat a Tau army if you go back and read the rules I meant my post you would see that I wrote how Orks can beat Tau.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide has no business having AP 2 melee attacks.

So a gigantic robot shouldn't be able to crush through armor lol?

Some armor, perhaps, but not 2+ armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
" Every army has a great unit"

Not BA. Or Orks, really.

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

The stormsurge fires.All your Warbikes die, even jinking. Trust me.

each breacher squad devilfish combo brings down 5 kommandos.

As for killing the tetra, good luck getting your commandos withing 12" to fire your pistols, even if he deploys stupidly forward AND lets you infiltrate 12" away, he just scouts back 12". 2 BS2 rokkits won't kill it.
Also 2 rokkits is 30 points, not 10.

The commandos can in fact pretty much be written off, they won't kill anything shooting, and have to endure 1 or 2 turns of shooting + overwatch.

most your stormboys die to the Riptide hailfire even in cover,
You are left after the first tau turn with *some* stormboys , who still have to eat overwatch. very few commandos, who at most will be a mild inconvenience to the breacher teams (woo defensive grenades)

And some lootas who might kill a broadside.
Sure you have boys, but not for long.

The stormsurge can just stomp up the field

Face it, you just counter picked a tau list , and gave a tonne of buffs to orks, they are nowhere near as strong as you think (400 pts killing 90 pts)

That list would be annhilated , your "superior tactics" are the same tactics everyone uses.
Sometimes its not a fair fight. Hence the phantom analogy.

You have an advantage, don;t be a dick and put down the loser when they complain about the strength of your codex.



As for the Tyson argument. I am not strong or in shape, no matter how skilled a boxer I was, I am not beating him, I don;t have the muscle or speed, no matter how "good " i am at it.It's not mental restraints stopping me from winning there

My Xenos don't complain about grav. I love grav. Take as much grav as you can cram in your greedy little power armored fists against any of my armies. The best armor save you're gonna find is a 4+.

I use a bit of everything with BA.

If you have that mentality you will never be able to win. I cannot imagine going into a game thinking I am going to lose because I am facing xyz army, that doesnt make sense to me. I may have a bad match up but it doesnt mean an auto lost. The truth is average players have mental restraints that prevent them from winning and the size of a gun is often the source.

I go in knowing I can win , because I build powerful lists, and play necrons, which are a powerful codex.
It's tougher than other matchups because Tau are stronfer than other codexs.

And that necrons dont have any reliable answer to riptides.

Players don't have "mental restraints" they have physical restraints, the game isn't balanced. period. there is a reason Chaos are considered weak,Because they are, because everything costs too much, and doesnt do enough.
Tau are considered Strong, because they are, everything costs too little and does too much (exaggeration)

In a straight contest 9/10 times tau would beat chaos with equal generals.

Your whole ork Tactics were basically saying "use your stuff to kill his stuff"

All those ork units have much less durability, and killing power than those Tau units, It would be a massacre, despite you writing of the tetra as dead, the broadsides as dead, and everything as dead in assault. You ever tried killing a riptide in assault with S4 AP-? not easy.

My harlequins would love it if someone grav spammed against them
They are also the only assault army that I enjoy playing against tau, as Veil of Tears is hilarious when that stormsurge and riptide can't touch you because you are 25 inches away

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

harkequin wrote:
The stormsurge fires.All your Warbikes die, even jinking. Trust me.

If you charge him turn 2 he can only shoot once as his stabilizers havent deployed yet! So he would not be able to do all that damage because he only gets 1 large blast, a twin-linked smart missile, and 4d6 str 5 shots on average 14 str 5 shots. Its not doing that much damage.

harkequin wrote:
each breacher squad devilfish combo brings down 5 kommandos.

Who said it was just five with them being so cheap they are in cover with stealth, the breacher squad is bs is 3 half the shots will miss 15 hits, 2 will fail to wound, and 2/3 will be saved around 4-5 will die from the fancy breacher squad. Next turn you charge them and the vehicle.

harkequin wrote:
As for killing the tetra, good luck getting your commandos withing 12" to fire your pistols, even if he deploys stupidly forward AND lets you infiltrate 12" away, he just scouts back 12". 2 BS2 rokkits won't kill it.

6 movement + 12 inch weapon = 18 inches same length that you can infiltrate from one enemy unit.

harkequin wrote:
Also 2 rokkits is 30 points, not 10.

Go check the upgrade for Kommandos and see if the upgrade is a different price, dude you are not looking to good atm.

harkequin wrote:
The commandos can in fact pretty much be written off, they won't kill anything shooting, and have to endure 1 or 2 turns of shooting + overwatch.

If they are overwatching on them instead of your bike unit or jump pack unit I believe you are winning.

harkequin wrote:
most your stormboys die to the Riptide hailfire even in cover,
You are left after the first tau turn with *some* stormboys , who still have to eat overwatch. very few commandos, who at most will be a mild inconvenience to the breacher teams (woo defensive grenades)

Riptides are bs 3 half of their shoots miss so a burst cannon has 6 str 6 hits vs 30 orks.

harkequin wrote:
And some lootas who might kill a broadside.
Sure you have boys, but not for long.

Once you charge them its over like literally a good multi-charge and its game over!

harkequin wrote:
The stormsurge can just stomp up the field

He cant move and shoot twice so its either or and shoot the lootas at him and he will die get some dice out and try it out yourself if you dont believe me.

harkequin wrote:
Face it, you just counter picked a tau list , and gave a tonne of buffs to orks, they are nowhere near as strong as you think (400 pts killing 90 pts)

You dont counter pick any list you change your tactics depending on what you are facing.

harkequin wrote:
That list would be annhilated , your "superior tactics" are the same tactics everyone uses.
Sometimes its not a fair fight. Hence the phantom analogy.

In your hands it would lose in my hands it wouldnt but, thats ok!

harkequin wrote:
You have an advantage, don;t be a dick and put down the loser when they complain about the strength of your codex.

I play marines!

harkequin wrote:
As for the Tyson argument. I am not strong or in shape, no matter how skilled a boxer I was, I am not beating him, I don;t have the muscle or speed, no matter how "good " i am at it.It's not mental restraints stopping me from winning there

If you think your going to lose regardless thats you but if you want people to believe they are going to lose thats a problem.

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

He did the Maths based on the average number of shots you'll roll, which is 2.
3 is the max, yes. But even then, that's 2.167 unsaved wounds. Whoop-de-do.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 CKO wrote:

harkequin wrote:

The mvp by the way is Lootas take them and take some more and when you had some more take a little bit more, that's how good lootas are!

I don't even play orks and that's hilarious.
Even ignoring riptides and stormsurges, lets pit lootas against broadsides.

15 lootas, 10 hits 9 wounds , 1.5 wounds on broadsides.
So congrats, with 420 pts of lootas you can kill between 65 and 130 points.

Your lack of ork knowledge is apparent! Lootas shoot d3 str 7 shots meaning one unit can shoot 45 shots meaning 15 hits meaning 13 wounds roll 13 dice and see how many 1's you get. Now repeat that process 2 more times and see if 6 ones are rolled.

He did the Maths based on the average number of shots you'll roll, which is 2.
3 is the max, yes. But even then, that's 2.167 unsaved wounds. Whoop-de-do.

The unit has 6 wounds thats one dead broadside thats 8 less shots thats alot considering that a ridtide on average has 6 hits with its maingun!

Why do I even try?

The fact that you do not understand this lets me know you have improper target priority skills.

That's if you roll a 3 though. A 1 or 2 are just as likely and in those cases you won't kill a Broadside.

With average rolls it's 2 shots per turn.

Not to mention that usually there's a Drone or two out front to take the first few wounds for the unit, meaning on average their won't be enough wounds to kill a Broadside out-right even if their were in the first place.


And my target priorities are fine, thank you very much. I'm just saying that mathematically the Lootas will only kill less than 1 Broadside per turn while the Broadsides on their own will slaughter them (not that they need to as if the Lootas can reach them then some Drones or Firwarriors should be in range of the Lootas to retaliate).

You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Can it happen? Yes.

Is it probable? No.

 CKO wrote:
You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

A strong Tau list will be able to beat almost any Ork list with average dice rolls yeah

 CKO wrote:
You know what, you guys are right there is no way orks can beat Tau, no way its just not going to happen! LOL

I rarely get angry about this hobby, but go look at the results of the LVO. Where did orks place verse any of the 7.5 armies. For feth sake wake up

Cindis wrote:
ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Reported again for being a troll

 CKO wrote:

That's how a foot slooging ork army can beat a gunline!

Wana play it out in vassal?

I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Unless you prove your point in action, it's just words.

From my own experience against gunline tau as a footslogging ork player - you don't reach them. It's practically useless to even try to get into combat on thir own terms. The best chance is outlast them at the midboard scoring VP and killing markerlights with whatever shooty stuff you have - mostly lootas, lobbas and bigshootas. This way you can force them to come closer if they're not lucky with missions. And now you can reach them.
That's why i specifically mentioned 6-th edition with oldschool missions where only last turn matters. Now with maelstorm you can get lucky and win just with scoring as much stuff as possible with your slow melee troops. In 6-th you had to be VERY lucky or get a relic mission.

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Please answer my question, look at the LVO results and tell me that every army is equal assuming that neither player is holding back.

 koooaei wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Unless you prove your point in action, it's just words.

From my own experience against gunline tau as a footslogging ork player - you don't reach them. It's practically useless to even try to get into combat on thir own terms. The best chance is outlast them at the midboard scoring VP and killing markerlights with whatever shooty stuff you have - mostly lootas, lobbas and bigshootas. This way you can force them to come closer if they're not lucky with missions. And now you can reach them.
That's why i specifically mentioned 6-th edition with oldschool missions where only last turn matters. Now with maelstorm you can get lucky and win just with scoring as much stuff as possible with your slow melee troops. In 6-th you had to be VERY lucky or get a relic mission.

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I have put to much energy into this I see that my efforts are futile, one can not teach when ears are closed and stubborness is present.

Continue to struggle and fear shooty armies, I could care less at this point.

Please answer my question, look at the LVO results and tell me that every army is equal assuming that neither player is holding back.

If the best players would have brought orks than the results would have been different. Its not the army thats winning these tournaments its the players.

So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

 CKO wrote:

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

I view each codex like a weapon, all of them have the ability to kill some are easier than others but if you master your weapon you will do fine against any army.

 koooaei wrote:

 CKO wrote:

I hope that you find a more effective tactic and you are not a victim of randomness.

It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

Sometimes you must resort to tactics you dont like but winning at the end is fun compared to losing during individual turns. Even the best players sometimes have to adapt and change their plan in the blink of an eye you never know when the anomaly will happen and you roll 4 ones or things of that nature.

 koooaei wrote:
It was the most effective with the mostly footslogging army that i possessed. Orks were doing pretty good against tau running a battlewagon rush list. But i didn't have battlewagons. And the tactic of outlasting, scoring and shooting what you can was the most viable. It was quite boring and i didn't like playing against tau for that reason. They forced a boring game where mostly randomness decides who wins. If you go aggressive, you almost certainly loose.

My impression is if you don't have some kind of method to tone down Tau firepower, like Outflanking your entire army, transport flyers, enormous depth (10+ Rhinos) or tricks like Shrouding and Invis, it's almost impossible to keep enough alive to assault successfully.

FNP is pretty common but Riptides are good at shutting that one down in particular.

I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Let me phrase my question a different way then. Do you except that certain codexes have a much more narrow range of builds at a very competitive level.

cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Let me phrase my question a different way then. Do you except that certain codexes have a much more narrow range of builds at a very competitive level.

Absolutely but most codex are like that. Eldar will take bikes, wraithknights, and aspect host I mean technically even best codexes take the same stuff at that level!

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

That was in response to CKO's comment about Ork Bikes, which have a 4+ AS. They will do a lot.

 CKO wrote:
I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Um... How in the hell do they move 19"? Do you mean 16, because 19 is physically impossible. 18 is max, 15.5 is average because math. So, with an approximate 16" move if you roll the higher end of average, your looking at a 24" charge or so with the re-roll assuming no cover. This is, of course, assuming the exspensive squad with 6+ armor that attack at the same time as the opponent are worth getting into combat. But, purely based on math, it takes two turns to move 40" on average with the charge; in a straight line; assuming 0 terrain blocks you. The question that needs to be asked, then, is how far away is the riptide/yvara/"insert other important thing here" away from you at this point. Please, use math and not annecdotal evidence, saves everyone a headache
/rant over.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Cindis wrote:
ITC have made nothing but correct calls regarding Tau.

I'm sorry you feel you need even more crutches to compete with other codexes.

Reported again for being a troll

Because it did so much the first time.

Some of us don't have as much trouble comprehending plain English as others.

 CKO wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you feel there is not difference in power between codex eldar and codex orks. Just as an extreme example

I view each codex like a weapon, all of them have the ability to kill some are easier than others but if you master your weapon you will do fine against any army.

This, folks, is what we call the L2P argument.

Is it REALLY that hard to admit some codices are just lacking?

 Swampmist wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I tried my best to point out the small things that make a huge difference but they refused to accept it.

Bikes spreading out make blast templates almost useless when you have a 3+ cover save. Orks jumpacks move 19 inches a turn on average and with waagh they get their 2d6 run before the charge in which they get to re-roll one of the dice if it is low! They have kommandos that can infiltrate they have the koptas with scout which can charge first to deny the overwatch barrage, I honestly tried to explain these things but just absolute denial.

Um... How in the hell do they move 19"? Do you mean 16, because 19 is physically impossible. 18 is max, 15.5 is average because math. So, with an approximate 16" move if you roll the higher end of average, your looking at a 24" charge or so with the re-roll assuming no cover. This is, of course, assuming the exspensive squad with 6+ armor that attack at the same time as the opponent are worth getting into combat. But, purely based on math, it takes two turns to move 40" on average with the charge; in a straight line; assuming 0 terrain blocks you. The question that needs to be asked, then, is how far away is the riptide/yvara/"insert other important thing here" away from you at this point. Please, use math and not annecdotal evidence, saves everyone a headache
/rant over.

They have a special rule where they run 2d6.

No they dont. One of my best friends plays orks, and I can tell you right now they do not. If they did they might actually be worth taking.

Well, they do have it but they must pass DT for the whole squad. This can also trigger ld tests and they're not brilliant with ld7 even with mob rule. So, you have a chance to loose a squad in your own shooting phase if you perform this run move.
I personally used to run a squad of stormboyz and i've found them doing best as a 9-13 numbered unit with a pk/bp nob hugging blos in the middle of the map and acting as a counter-charge or offensive mostly against vehicles. They're very unstable. Sometimes, they do good, sometimes they just kill themselves on a special run.

So far, 2 games they did good. 2 games they did nothing. 1 game they lost 3 dudes to DT on a special run, failed ld and ran off the board.

I'd not call their offence good for the points just cause of how squishy and unstable they are. The best role for stormboyz is being a relatively quick backup. They're pretty horrible against tau cause they NEED blos to work and tau have very moblile shooters and stuff that ignores LOS.

I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

 carldooley wrote:
I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

There are a couple different complaints here.

Mine is that the Riptide beats ASMs in CC for the points. That has almost nothing to do with Marker lights.

I agree that the Riptide is fine for 7.5-level games. I just don't like that sort of gak, which is commonplace at that level.

What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

 hordrak wrote:
What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

And koooaei? I do appreciate the offer. I haven't looked at Vassal recently. If I do manage to install it properly, I'd be happy to play a game. You build a 1850 tac ork list, and I'll build a 1850 tac tau list, and we can trade and play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

but you do have Mephiston still? and Librarian dreads? And I wasn't talking about BA, which are IoM and take BB allies up the wazoo. I was talking about CSM.

**edit** where can I get the modules for vassal?

BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

Not in the slightest.
CSM peril on any double when summoning, you're more likely to lose units than gain them.

And how does one "select" invisibility.
The best possible chance CSM have of getting invisibilty is with 2 ML3 sorcerors, with no marks, is 75% .
Tigerius has this chance on his own.
75% is not reliable enough for a list that is based around invis, as you will not have it every fourth game. 85% chance and you're looking more solid, getting invis 5/6 games.

And for that 75% chance, you max out your HQ slots for that CAD. On top of this what will you make invisible? CSM dont have a deathstar worth using it on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

Using cover isn't as easy as you make it out to be. When trying to get into assault you usually have to cross at least some open ground, and if you aren't you get slowed way down by difficult terrain, meaning that 4+ save is negated, by getting shot twice as much.

If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

harkequin wrote:
If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

and I, at least, got tired of this argument. I wanted a bare field, my opponent wanted a full field of cover. I got around this by either allowing my opponent to populate the field with cover as long as I got to choose the side (usually taking the side with the most cover- because if I have it then my opponent doesn't), or I asked a third person to do so.

 carldooley wrote:

harkequin wrote:
If it's a city game with a tonne of LoS blocking terrain, then yeah, orks will shine as only the SMS will hit them, but most games don't have nearly enough LoS blocking to save orks.

and I, at least, got tired of this argument. I wanted a bare field, my opponent wanted a full field of cover. I got around this by either allowing my opponent to populate the field with cover as long as I got to choose the side (usually taking the side with the most cover- because if I have it then my opponent doesn't), or I asked a third person to do so.

Yeah, that's fair. As long as it's not a competitive game there is an easy fix , make a theme. Plan ahead of time, agree what sort of field it will be, An urban setting with orks overrunning a city, going from building to building with no real open ground, then Next time reanact Zulu, no real cover and see how many boyz can make it.

If it's competitve, terrain layout is a whole nother beast, preferably handled by someone else, with a view to making the game more balanced.

 Swampmist wrote:
No they dont. One of my best friends plays orks, and I can tell you right now they do not. If they did they might actually be worth taking.

Stormboyz have always been able to move an extra D6 compared to other jumppack units. In the old dex, they were just way too expensive to utilize and in the new dex theyre not priced badly but it moved from 12 + D6 in the Movement phase (1 boy goes boom on a roll of 1) for the whole unit, to running 2D6 and every single damn boy takes a danger test, which on average kills a third of the unit since a 6+ save will not save you from a failed dangertest for jack.

They got weaker in the current dex because of that. If they left their rules alone and just reworked their costs to be in line with other codex jumppacks vs nonjump units (which is usually 3-5pts, while orks were damn near 3x) they would be amazing. But they didnt, they neutered them just like the rest of the dex.

Your friend has been playing them wrong for years upon years. I dont recall if they had this before the last codex, but the last codex has been around for much longer than ive been playing.

Also lol at the complaint about Riptides beating marines in CC for the points. If your non-specialized marines, i.e. no special AP2 weapons even if they somehow didnt get to wound on a 2+ in the process, beat a riptide in melee every time i'd call BS. A troop shouldnt beat an elite easily, regardless of who's elite it is. Theres a reason its an ELITE choice.
Hide a powerfist in your marines. Odds are the Riptide will kill 1-2 marines tops if that. The moment you win combat you sweep something 4x your size thanks to the stupid sweeping advance rules in this game. If you dont want powerfists, dont expect to face a riptide or any MC with regular marines and win. Not even Nid MCs are that weak.

I don't hate Tau any more than I hate Necrons, Eldar or my fellow marine players. I do dislike people taking WAAC lists against the lower tier codex because it severely limits what they can bring to a game.

40k goes best when there is a level of self awareness and that includes recognizing that there is a hierarchy of armies.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

For what they do, they are quite cheap. That's the whole problem. Riptides in particular are grossly undercosted.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't hate Tau any more than I hate Necrons, Eldar or my fellow marine players. I do dislike people taking WAAC lists against the lower tier codex because it severely limits what they can bring to a game.

40k goes best when there is a level of self awareness and that includes recognizing that there is a hierarchy of armies.

This

Friend of mine keeps trying to get me to do tournaments and i keep telling him this game will never been a tournament-viable game because theres no personal-balance to tone down the OP armies so everyone can play and have fun. Its all WAAC cheese. He claims he knows Reece and believes hes doing a good job at balancing the game and i just laughed. Until Reece starts putting out whole codex reworks this game will never be balanced. So i avoid that scene.
I dont use tau formations except the retaliation cadre for extra crisis suits or the Hunter Cadre for when i want to go really heavy firewarriors for run + shoot firewarriors. I dont spam riptides, in fact i rarely use them anymore. I use piranhas/hammerheads. Hell, i even charge sometimes. The game is much more fun when you arent steamrolling every game.

And yes i can do the tournament stuff, i dont avoid it because i cant. Said friend wanted me to go all out and test his necron ITC list. I ripped his face off with a riptide wing + stormsurge + Mark'O unit + piranha/drone wall to choke up his wraiths. I dont have fun playing that way.

Riptide wouldnt be grossly undercosted if its Ion gun was in line with the other ion weapons - 24" AP3 w/o nova. Its superior to the Ionhead in literally every way which make no sense.
Stormsurge definitely isnt undercosted. Its actually about right, which is unusual to say for me lol.

 carldooley wrote:
I can't believe the bias in threads like this. 'OMG, you expect me to take cover saves against tau shooting? OMG, the tau shooting phase is SOOOOO OP!'

Give me a break. The reason why Tau work is that they work TOGETHER. That riptide does not strip your cover saves. . . that is the markerlight's job. . . and if you die to markerlights, which do NO damage, you need to examine your self.

I don't suppose that anyone has ever gamed interpenetration? Are you folks wondering why out armies are blowing you away? it is because they are willing to work together. try it sometime, try the (shudder) idea of hiding a psyker with invisibility in or behind your deathstar, and drink the tau players tears as you hard counter their list.

hey, aren't CSM one of the armies capable of going the daemon farm way? that means that they have access to psykers. Can't they select telepathy(Invisibility) as well?

Someone doesn't understand how markerlights work. If you're having trouble with invisibility as a Tau player well...This thread is full of examples of your average Tau players tenuous grasp of the game in general...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
cover saves against Tau shooting? really?
Spreading out won't change that a broadside team with a couple markerlights will kill a squad of bikes in one turn from across the board

Except Broadside weapons are AP4, meaning it will do very little

That was in response to CKO's comment about Ork Bikes, which have a 4+ AS. They will do a lot.

My bad! someone had mentioned space marine bikes earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

For what they do, they are quite cheap. That's the whole problem. Riptides in particular are grossly undercosted.

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

Cindis wrote:
Someone doesn't understand how markerlights work. If you're having trouble with invisibility as a Tau player well...This thread is full of examples of your average Tau players tenuous grasp of the game in general...

I said that synergy is one of the strengths of Tau. Not in those words, but in the 'work together' bit. A question: how many units do you see with markerlights in an army? or does your tau opponent make use of marker planes?

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

The stormsurge is pretty undercosted. Given that it is very unlikely to be removed during the game, and operates at full capacity until it is removed, It only has to kill 1 unit for it to be a net positive.

It takes 470 points of grav skyhammer to deal with it. Using a powerful gun built specifically to kill GMCs, In a powerful formation built specifically to Alpha strike.

And the Stormsurge can intercept and kill At least one of those squads when it drops.

Outside of Grav there are very few things that can kill a stormsurge before they are killed by it.
Honestly , It'd probably be appropriately costed if not for 50pts buying 8 more wounds -.-

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

harkequin wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

The stormsurge is pretty undercosted. Given that it is very unlikely to be removed during the game, and operates at full capacity until it is removed, It only has to kill 1 unit for it to be a net positive.

It takes 470 points of grav skyhammer to deal with it. Using a powerful gun built specifically to kill GMCs, In a powerful formation built specifically to Alpha strike.

And the Stormsurge can intercept and kill At least one of those squads when it drops.

Outside of Grav there are very few things that can kill a stormsurge before they are killed by it.
Honestly , It'd probably be appropriately costed if not for 50pts buying 8 more wounds -.-

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Friend of mine keeps trying to get me to do tournaments and i keep telling him this game will never been a tournament-viable game because theres no personal-balance to tone down the OP armies so everyone can play and have fun... I dont use tau formations except the retaliation cadre for extra crisis suits or the Hunter Cadre for when i want to go really heavy firewarriors for run + shoot firewarriors. I dont spam riptides, in fact i rarely use them anymore. I use piranhas/hammerheads. Hell, i even charge sometimes. The game is much more fun when you arent steamrolling every game.

...

Riptide wouldnt be grossly undercosted if its Ion gun was in line with the other ion weapons - 24" AP3 w/o nova. Its superior to the Ionhead in literally every way which make no sense.
Stormsurge definitely isnt undercosted. Its actually about right, which is unusual to say for me lol.

Pretty good observations on the pros + cons of ultra-competitive attitudes and a pretty fair fix. Good post!

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.

313 points to reliably evaporate almost any squad in the game from across the board?
That is quite good

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

SS is 438 points properly kitted out. That is 1/4 of your army. That is not cheap.
Riptide properly kitted out is 225 points, again not cheap. Are riptides good? Yes, are they very durable? Yes. Do they do a lot of actual damage? NO

so a S8 AP2 Large blast that can easily get ignores cover and a very high BS from markerlights isn't a lot of damage?

On its own? Nope not really. 225 points for a S8 AP2 LB (that gets hot btw) is not good damage output.

I love how people always add in ignore cover and improved BS due to marker lights and fail to add in the added cost of those marker lights? You want ignore cover and added BS? Fine. Thats 4 marker hits which means 8 pathfinder (88 points). You are now up to 313 points for 1 St 8 AP2 LB that will fail 1/6 times.

313 points to reliably evaporate almost any squad in the game from across the board?
That is quite good

And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

I have played with an against Tau and I am telling you riptides do not do that much actual damage. They soak up a ton of damage but if you remove marker lights from the board they become almost no problem whatsoever

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

So, noone willing to play things out?

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.

 koooaei wrote:
So, noone willing to play things out?

Scroll up, a guy earlier was interested.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

I don't have beef with Tau as an army. What I have beef with, is the unwillingness of Tau players to look at what's right in front of them.

Riptide is about 200 points, for that price, I could get (using the armies I have):
- A single squad of Sicarians: a 5-man squad of T3 models that barely ever get to use their second wound, 4+ armor save

- A Nurgle biker lord with power fist and Lightning claw with just too few points to give it a single Nurgle Spawn as body guard. 3+ armor save, 4+ invul

- Just short of a single Lord of Change

- 5 Necron Wraiths with Whip coils (probably the only thing that's worth more than a Riptide in this list and generally viewed to be far too good for its points when taken in a formation).

The new codex made god damn sure Riptides don't need that much (if any support) to work. Just take 3 in a squad and boom they're BS4, probably for most of the game because god knows you're not going to kill one of those things easily unless you're bringing gravspam or eldar trickery (so about 75% of the armies out there) because most AP2 weapons don't have the volume of shots to deal with them. On top of that you only need to dip your toe in terrain to get a cover save and contrary to what most Tau players seem to believe, AP2 ignores cover weaponry doesn't come in droves in most armies and DEFINITELY not in quantities to take 5 wounds off of a T6 MC that has a 5++(/3++) invul save.

If I'm looking at Stormsurges, the closest thing I've got to in points is an Imperial knight which has both less firepower and survivability.


Despite what you might think after reading my "rant", I'm not salty about Tau. If I want to have a decent chance to win, I'll roll out a Decurion or my daemon army (and from now on Daemonic Incursion) and that's that. However, I can't deal with bs and people calling a Riptide anything but a good unit that's probably too cheap for what it's offering is clearly bs. I dare you to find a unit (that's not another Tau unit) that's got that firepower (including potential from marker support because as some people said, that IS the strength Tau have) in such a dense package for those points.

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.

Yeah beg to differ on that one. SS rarely kills that many in a turn. And if it does than thats YOUR fault as a player for not putting your units out of line of site.
You know how many points of marker lights you would need to fire everything on the stormsurge? More than 300 addition points in marker lights.

notredameguy10 wrote:
And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

here is a bit of a question for you folks. This is what I run:
2xMark'o Commander with 2 missile pods or AFPs, Drone Controller, EWO
Drone Net, so at least 16 Marker Drones, usually buy 2 more for each of the mark'o Commanders, so 20 total marker drones.

Riptide or Stormsurge with EWO and Velocity Trackers.
Commanders = 128 pts each
Drone Net = 280 pts.
Riptide with upgrades, IA & SMS (my preferred build) = 210 pts
Stormsurge with Pulse Driver Cannon & TL AFP (& upgrades)= 405 pts.

So we have 6 marker drones firing at BS5, so likely one misses on average. 5 marker tokens. Stormsurge and Riptide are BS3. 2 tokens to improve BS to 5, 2 tokens to Ignore Cover. That leaves me a single additional token for a single Destroyer Missile. sadface. (oh, and if I anchor - then I need double the number of marker tokens)

so, 128 pts for the drone controller, plus 84 pts for the 6 marker drones attached to both. plus the 210\405 pt dedicated shooter. Comes to 422 for the riptide or 617 for the stormsurge. Out of curiosity, what do the other armies pay for the privilege?

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Because your 438 pts can easily kill 438 pts from my codex in one turn.

Yeah beg to differ on that one. SS rarely kills that many in a turn. And if it does than thats YOUR fault as a player for not putting your units out of line of site.

That assumes that there is an out of LOS on a given map. That's not guaranteed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
And the point people keep trying to make is you destroy those T3 5+ save marker lights and the riptides becomes BS3 with no ignore cover. Then it is not very good anymore.

here is a bit of a question for you folks. This is what I run:
2xMark'o Commander with 2 missile pods or AFPs, Drone Controller, EWO
Drone Net, so at least 16 Marker Drones, usually buy 2 more for each of the mark'o Commanders, so 20 total marker drones.

Riptide or Stormsurge with EWO and Velocity Trackers.
Commanders = 128 pts each
Drone Net = 280 pts.
Riptide with upgrades, IA & SMS (my preferred build) = 210 pts
Stormsurge with Pulse Driver Cannon & TL AFP (& upgrades)= 405 pts.

So we have 6 marker drones firing at BS5, so likely one misses on average. 5 marker tokens. Stormsurge and Riptide are BS3. 2 tokens to improve BS to 5, 2 tokens to Ignore Cover. That leaves me a single additional token for a single Destroyer Missile. sadface. (oh, and if I anchor - then I need double the number of marker tokens)

so, 128 pts for the drone controller, plus 84 pts for the 6 marker drones attached to both. plus the 210\405 pt dedicated shooter. Comes to 422 for the riptide or 617 for the stormsurge. Out of curiosity, what do the other armies pay for the privilege?

BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

notredameguy10 wrote:

harkequin wrote:

It is T6 with a 3+ save. I have seen a multitude of battle reports where it not only was removed BUT WAS REMOVED FROM ONE SINGLE UNIT SHOOTING AT IT

T6 3+ 4++ 5+++ 8 W.
Please tell me what unit removed it on it's own.
Only one I can see doing that is Centstar, with Gate of infinity to get into range, OR WK with D cannons.

There are ways to kill it, or even neuter it, herlequins could do a pretty good job , or a freakshow.
But let's assume a Freakshow, with -9 Ld modifier, down to 0., and they roll 18 on the psychic shreik, and they hit with it.
they do 6 wounds to the Stormsurge, assuming everything goes perfectly. That is insane durability.

Grave cents in one game from frontline
Kastelins in a game from miniwargaming

And it SHOULD be insanely durable for 438 points. You SHOULDN'T be able to kill it in one round of shooting or with the same number of points. I will never understand why people think something is undercoated when they cannot kill it with the same number of points. That makes no sense. You shouldn't be able to always kill a unit with the same number of points in one turn.

Grav Cents in a centstar yeah absolutely. A deathstar the entire list is built around.
Grav cents in a drop pod? will never survive the interceptor of a competitve tau list. Even if they do, they do 15 (8/9)(8/9)(1/2)(2/3) = a whopping 4 wounds, rounding up.

Kataphrons I can see doing it, assuming 8+ units canticles, it takes 8 destroyers to kill it(440pts). Though they are royally fethd if they dont get first turn.
Kastelans (assuming 8+ canticles and double tap) require 1000 points worth to kill a stormsurge. It's nuts.

Grav is the direct counter to GMCs so of course it will wreck them, but for armies that aren't Codex Space marines / Cult mechanicus we have issues.

Like i said, If it wasn't for the 50 point upgrade for 8 extra wounds it would be fine (lets face it, no one's firing AP4+ at your stormsurge, well maybe eldar)

Take away the invul, or make it way more expensive and we'd be fine. The base Stormsurge without invul is very balanced in it's cost.

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

**edit** The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

**flagged as inappropriate. I do apologize for the modicum of sarcasm in the original message, but it wasn't intended to be terribly rude.

438 pts of marines should be durable, too, but they are gak in 7th ed. The magic of the MC and GMC USR multiplies durability in an unfair manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

hippocrite. The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

BA pay for shooting, too, but our shooting just doesn't accomplish anything because 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:
438 pts of marines should be durable, too, but they are gak in 7th ed. The magic of the MC and GMC USR multiplies durability in an unfair manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA basically don't have a shooting phase. So I can't compare.

hippocrite. The point, is that the ability to shoot is one that we pay for. Is it safe to assume that you are paying for your power weapons, or do you equip them for free?

BA pay for shooting, too, but our shooting just doesn't accomplish anything because 7th ed.

then msu.

Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

.

time for someone to walk away from the hobby then. Good luck selling your models though, I have some SM that I've been trying to unload for a while with no real luck. Try Warmachine, you definitely have the feel of a Legion player that I know.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. I invite you to try that one, too. It's just too much of an uphill battle paying for models that don't accomplish anything on the tabletop.

.

time for someone to walk away from the hobby then. Good luck selling your models though, I have some SM that I've been trying to unload for a while with no real luck. Try Warmachine, you definitely have the feel of a Legion player that I know.

I won't be involved in any new model games.

Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game.

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

The reason you are losing is not your opponent's codex, you cant keep blaming the codex or you will continue to lose. Without proper evaluation of your skills you will never show any progress, do you feel you have gotten any better?

Or do you just blame the codex?

 CKO wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Martel do you lose a lot? It seems that you are frustrated, it is just a game. I think my post on how orks can beat gun line armies is pretty clear.

I'd say my recent win rate with BA is up a bit, but that was from 30ish% BA cost a lot more than Orks, and struggle with saturation.

The reason you are losing is not your opponent's codex, you cant keep blaming the codex or you will continue to lose. Without proper evaluation of your skills you will never show any progress, do you feel you have gotten any better?

Or do you just blame the codex?

Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer(try) not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

Sorry, but I theoryhammer more than I warhammer.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

I theoryhammer more than I warhammer, and I'll call BS where I see it. Martel, sorry, but you are oozing it.

I was really good in 5th. That number probably dropped lower than that at the end with Necrons and GK. I'll be frank: a lot of people were using vanilla marines and BA were objectively superior to vanilla marines in 5th. I also had a lot of squeakers against SW that ended on a knife's edge of rolls.

do wolves still have their lone wolf schtick? you get a VP for each one still alive at the end of the game but you get nothing if they are dead?

 carldooley wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
What would orks need to get a chance to beat Tau? 1) Invuln saves. The only one we have is the expensive KFF, and that's covering models, not units. 2) FNP across the board. You can't stick a painboy in every unit and without one orks die easily. 3) High leadership/Fearless. With the current Mob Rule orks kill themselves just as good as Tau do. 4) higher T, so you actualy get a way of surviving the shooting faze and don't get the FNP denied.

I was under the impression that most ork boyz are T4, Tau don't have a lot of Str8 to double out FNP. What is denying you? and why aren't you using cover? SMS don't need LOS, but everything else does. And why not use your KFF? does it need to be on the field, or can it be in a battlewagon instead?

And koooaei? I do appreciate the offer. I haven't looked at Vassal recently. If I do manage to install it properly, I'd be happy to play a game. You build a 1850 tac ork list, and I'll build a 1850 tac tau list, and we can trade and play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't get telepathy. And the Tau can just murder all the other units.

but you do have Mephiston still? and Librarian dreads? And I wasn't talking about BA, which are IoM and take BB allies up the wazoo. I was talking about CSM.

**edit** where can I get the modules for vassal?

If a KFF is inside a transport only the transport gets the invul. I keep my boyz in cover if I'm able to, but if it doesn't block line of sight a few markerlights just neutralize it. Basic Tau guns are S5 so boyz get wounded on 3+ and that means a lot of dead green guys.

 carldooley wrote:
do wolves still have their lone wolf schtick? you get a VP for each one still alive at the end of the game but you get nothing if they are dead?

I don't know for sure. Most SW lists are now TWC superfriends.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Well, I had an 85ish% win rate in 5th ed. So I think I know what I'm doing in general. I constantly am falling short by a squad or two, because of how quickly my models are removed by Tau/Eldar/centstar.

an 85% win rate? how often did you get a repeat game against the same opponent? srsly, I prefer(try) not to have a win rate over 50% because while it is fun to win a game now & then, I don't have an inexhaustible supply of players to teabag. Frankly, I armchair QB more than I play - the last game I played was my first in 7th against DE, over a year ago, that I lost by 1 VP, in maelstrom.

I theoryhammer more than I warhammer, and I'll call BS where I see it. Martel, sorry, but you are oozing it.

BA were actually pretty good in 5th. They had 2 very good builds:

1. Descent-of-Angels Jump Marine-spam with Sanguinary Priests FNP-bubble. You got to remember back then, Furious Charge was +1S and +1I so you where striking before other marines when you get the charge in.

2. Razor-spam/AV13-spam MSU with fast vehicles. Back then, 5th was all about mechanized and BA did it very well.

Then it all went downhill when 6E came out.

The SW were hyper dangerous, but if you leveraged Furious charge just right, you could beat them. Vanilla marines kind of took it in the face, though.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't select telepathy as a discipline. Libby dreads are also overcosted HQs.

libby dreads are overcosted. kffs are overcosted.

RIPTIDES AND STORMSURGES AREN'T EXACTLY CHEAP EITHER!!!!
sorry for the caps, but what are you spending your points on?

Riptide isn't cheap. It's about right and if you go crazty on them they can get pretty unjustifiably expensive. It has a definite achilles and its best weapon (in my opinion) is basically an unreliable basilisk shot with really good line of sight. It is powerful AND expensive...as it should be. Dorcing somene to take three in order to get the added Riptide Wing benefit is worth it also but that really eats up points fast.

Same for the StormSurge. The Stormsurge is actually kind of mortal and expensive. I've lost it twice now in round one and i would say that T6 and 3+ armor just aint what it used to be. If not for FnP...

So I know they are powerful WHEN allowed to "do their thing". Like all enemies, the trick is not to put them in that position if you can avoid it. That's a tactics, list building and terrain issue right? But what it isn't is impossible or unlikely. The Tau Empire guy did pay points for a reason. So does everyone. and no one is appologizing about it when the Necron Canoptek Harvest hits the enemy. They paid for that. No one is crying when the Canoptek harvest gets whacked by black Knights. they paid for that. and so on.

If people hated losing less and loved winning more, it would be a more fun community.

i'd also like to point out that the stormsurge is also the only super in the damn game thats vulnerable to infantry weapon mass fire. Its T6, its not immune to jack squat.

Its a super. Unless youre sporting D weapons, no super should die in one turn. Not even the IKs are that fragile, and theyre also a major major threat if you dont have heavy anti-armor since common troops cant even attempt to hurt it while they can attempt to hurt the SS at least (unlikely but possible).
Only reason IKs are considered squishier is because IK have D3 bonus damage threats while the SS doesnt. SS takes more actual wounds on average to kill because of this, but the IK is harder to hurt to begin with due to AV13. Saying one is significantly tankier than the other is a pretty moot argument.

IKs die all the time in one turn. They are quite fragile for their points. T6 mcs are functionally immune to small arms to rest easy. AV 13 with AV 12 sides is a damn joke but in 7th ed.

All I got out of this thread was learning that Blood Angels don't even get access to Telepathy.

Just the other day I looked at the BA FAQ for a friend and I swear it said they had access to telepathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Blood_Angels_v1.0_May14.pdf

Is this not current?

Last updated May 2014

That's the FaQ for the 5th Ed BA codex (to update it for 7th Ed), not the current 7th Ed codex. The new codex doesn't say they can use Telepathy and hasn't received an FaQ saying they can.

The current codex clearly spells out what powers BA psykers can manifest. Telepathy is not one of them.

All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

 CKO wrote:
All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

I just got done shoveling my walk, and right as I got done, a dog came up to me and wagged its tail. I'm pretty sure that proves your point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players focus on, ignoring everything else...

 CKO wrote:
All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

Ah, the old L2P argument. Thanks for the great advice, CKO!!!

I don't play orks, and don't get to see my friend play often. Also, he really only uses his stormboyz to DS with the formation, so never actually saw the bonus move thing. Also, it is perfectly sensible that people know the brb better than a codex. Any player that plays multiple armies likely does.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

Ah, the old L2P argument. Thanks for the great advice, CKO!!!

What is the L2P argument?

 CKO wrote:
All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

This is due to shooting often being the decisive phase for many if not most armies. Assault is in sorry shape this edition due to GW making it much harder compared to earlier editions to get off a successful charge. Overwatch, random charge distance, the ability to assault out of reserve/a non moving vehicle being disallowed in the vast majority of cases makes assault difficult unless your very fast or incredibly durable.

Movement is still important always have been, gotta get my marines where they need to.

The psychic phase is either all or nothing for many armies. As a marine player I usual have one or two psykers, enough to give some support but rarely enough to win the game. For the most part I'm going to win or lose based on my shooting.

 CKO wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
All of these simple questions is just an example of players not reading their codexes. If you dont even know your own codex surely you dont know the large rule book! If that is the case than you can not evaluate a unit and figure out its weakness.

Which proves my point that the shooting phase is the one phase of the game that all players know the rest are deprived of attention.

Ah, the old L2P argument. Thanks for the great advice, CKO!!!

What is the L2P argument?

The "learn to play" argument.

"Dude the only reason your army of footslogging vanilla termagaunts didn't beat my Wraithknights is because you are a worse general than me"
"your army is stronger than mine"
"no dude you just need to stop focussing on the shooting phase"
"we are playing kill points and I have literally no way of killing you, and I'm only allowed to use vanilla termagaunts"
"Not my fault you don't know tactics"

Some matchups aren't fair. Some armies/codices are stronger than others.
This means Tau will beat orks more than orks will beat Tau with equal skill players.
The Tau player tooting their own horn and saying they win more purely because the ork player sucks at tactics and "needs to learn to play" is a dick-move.

Your entire orignal post was saying, "wow, everyone else is a worse player than me. They should learn to not be worse than me right?"

People dislike Tau because Tau are Top-tier at the moment. This makes games against Tau unnaturally difficult because even a casual Tau list will destroy competitive lists from lower tier codexes (see CSM)
Earlier you pointed out he tactics for a footslogging ork army (that you picked, knowing the list it's fighting in advance) and rolling the dice, that ork army stil get's massacred, despite your enlightned tactics.

Don't be TFG. Acknowledge that your codex is top tier. Eldar / necron and SM players acknowledge it. You should too.

And seriously. Don't blame your opponent. It's really condescending to blame your opponent for losing when you have advantages stacked in your favor.

I play one of the few armies in the game that can claim to participate in all phases of the game and have them be absolutely pivotal, Harlequins. I know the assault and movement phase inside out, but just knowing these phases won't protect me.

I have to work dam hard to get my troupes into assault range with a Tau gunline along with a unit to eat up overwatch (I gave the soliaitre), but it's so easy for a Veil of Tears to fail to cast then the Tau player blows them to bitz. So easy to ignore my cover, so easy to overwatch a unit to death. People hate full shooting armies, especially armies like Tau and Eldar, because of how safe and how little counter play is available compared to assault armies. Playing Harlequins or Orks competitively will always take more skill then Tau or Eldar.

OK, my ork friend just checked his codex, and it doesn't say stormboyz can run 2d6. Can someone give me a page number so I can have him confirm?

harkequin wrote:
The "learn to play" argument.

You should never stop learning even experts in certain fields continue to learn, I see nothing wrong with the L2P arguement if that is its meaning.

harkequin wrote:
"Dude the only reason your army of footslogging vanilla termagaunts didn't beat my Wraithknights is because you are a worse general than me"
"your army is stronger than mine"
"no dude you just need to stop focussing on the shooting phase"
"we are playing kill points and I have literally no way of killing you, and I'm only allowed to use vanilla termagaunts"
"Not my fault you don't know tactics"

If constructive criticism is a problem for you that means your inner critic is not judgemental enough. I dont have the same issues that you have these things dont bother me, it doesnt mean I am a better player, perhaps tougher skin, idk.

harkequin wrote:
Some matchups aren't fair. Some armies/codices are stronger than others.

Just because you have a bad matchup doesnt make it unfair, it happens with every competitive sport or card game.

harkequin wrote:
This means Tau will beat orks more than orks will beat Tau with equal skill players.
The Tau player tooting their own horn and saying they win more purely because the ork player sucks at tactics and "needs to learn to play" is a dick-move.

Who is doing this? Who is this player you speak? If the ork player wins its because of good tactics, so if they lose its because they were not able to use superior tactics. Now let me re-word this so I dont hurt players feelings. If the ork player wins its because he is a better player but if he lose its because he is facing tau!

harkequin wrote:
Your entire orignal post was saying, "wow, everyone else is a worse player than me. They should learn to not be worse than me right?"

That is a misinterpretation, the way you comprehend my OP is completely wrong. My first post was saying there are other phases of the game learn them and your chances of beating armies like Tau easier!

harkequin wrote:
People dislike Tau because Tau are Top-tier at the moment. This makes games against Tau unnaturally difficult because even a casual Tau list will destroy competitive lists from lower tier codexes (see CSM)

BAM, there it is people dislike Tau because it is top tier!

harkequin wrote:
Earlier you pointed out he tactics for a footslogging ork army (that you picked, knowing the list it's fighting in advance) and rolling the dice, that ork army stil get's massacred, despite your enlightned tactics.

Do you really think that by saying my enlightned tactics will be massacred has an effect on me! Do you really think someone that misinterpretated my simple post and feels that Tau players are laughing at him when he loses opinion bothers me! I am not surprised that you were unable to understand a post on useful tactics!

harkequin wrote:
Don't be TFG. Acknowledge that your codex is top tier. Eldar / necron and SM players acknowledge it. You should too.

I am not trying to deny which armies are top tier I am saying that they all can be beat with superior tactics, I made sure not to include any tactics in this post just for you!

Page 98, the entry for Rokkit Packs

 Swampmist wrote:
OK, my ork friend just checked his codex, and it doesn't say stormboyz can run 2d6. Can someone give me a page number so I can have him confirm?

Look at wargear, not unit entries. Theres a ton of rules for almost every codex thats not listed with the unit even if its exclusive to that unit.

Ah, that explains it. Thank you!

harkequin wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, noone willing to play things out?

Scroll up, a guy earlier was interested.

Who? Can't find him.

 koooaei wrote:

harkequin wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So, noone willing to play things out?

Scroll up, a guy earlier was interested.

Who? Can't find him.

you can't find anyone because you pmed me. I went looking for vassal40k. I saw a reddit page for it but I was unable to find the installer. Help?

koooaei wrote:Hey, wana play a test vassal match with tau (me) against footslogging orks (you). Will see how fun the game goes.

 carldooley wrote:
And koooaei? I do appreciate the offer. I haven't looked at Vassal recently. If I do manage to install it properly, I'd be happy to play a game. You build a 1850 tac ork list, and I'll build a 1850 tac tau list, and we can trade and play.