judgedoug wrote: Miniature Market once again stands up to Privateer Press
So, I wonder if someone can change the thread title?
Original Post:
Spoiler:
From Miniature Market:
Note: In an effort to prevent us from selling their products at our current discount, Privateer Press has threatened to delay our new item shipments to our distribution partners. As a result, there is a chance that new item purchases could be delayed by 7-14 days past their release date. We have no intentions of raising our prices or ceasing to carry Privateer Press products. Let your voice be heard by contacting Privateer Press
PRIVATEER AXES OFFENDING ONLINE RETAILERS
'We Do Not Condone the Free Riders' Parasitic Business Model'
Privateer Press, makers of Warmachine and Hordes, has announced a new sales policy which it hopes will end deeply discounted online sales.
In the letter sent out to retailers, Privateer Press President Sherry Yeary explained the rationale. “Over the last eleven years… online retailers with nearly no overhead and very little meaningful contact with our audience have been undermining the stability of the market by selling product at discounts well below retail value, depending solely on the efforts of our brick and mortar partners who offer services that nurture our audience and grow the market to move their product,” she wrote. “This model of business is widely recognized by experts and the justice system as ‘free riding.’ While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it’s crippling and anticompetitive.”
Privateer plans to create a list of retailers that it views as “free riders,” which it defines as “retailers …offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services” and will impose sanctions on distributors that sell to those retailers. The list will be updated by adding or deleting retailers as needed. Distributors that sell to retailers on Privateer’s “free rider” list will have their shipments of Privateer product, including new releases, delayed. The new policy goes into effect on April 4.
“We do not condone the free riders’ parasitic business model and elect to both continue and enhance our partnerships with those distributors that share our point of view and actively work in the best interests of the brick-and-mortar retailers,” Yeary continued. “While we cannot and would not dictate to our distributor partners who they can or cannot sell to, we believe free riders are eroding the foundation of our industry and hurting our business; only with the cooperation of our distribution partners can we prevent that.”
The letter also states online sales can continue, as “(w)e also recognize that online retailers provide access to the product to some customers who do not have ready access to a local brick-and-mortar store. We hope those online retailers with integrity and the foresight to protect the longevity and availability of the product lines providing their income will swiftly adjust any retailing practices that are counterproductive to the health of our industry.”
No maximum discount off retail price or other quantifiable measure of “counterproductive” business practices was outlined in Privateer’s letter, which said only that the process of creating the list would rely on an “internal evaluation process.” Nor was there any discussion of how Privateer will handle brick and mortar retailers that also sell online, for example as Amazon third party sellers, a growing trend.
ICv2 noted the growing channel conflict between brick and mortar game stores and online sellers (many of whom are also brick and mortar retailers disposing of excess inventory as Amazon third party sellers) in its most recent issue of Internal Correspondence #89 (see “Seven Years of Plenty in the Hobby Games Business”). And Privateer’s store support is definitely being affected by the problem, according to the report. Retailer Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games in Concord, California, for example, dropped Privateer products because of channel conflict. “There is a huge demand for the game, but everybody is buying it online at a discount,” Ray said of Warmachine. “It got down to one turn per year and we dropped it.”
Privateer is the latest in a growing list of manufacturers addressing the channel conflict between brick-and-mortar and online retailers. Asmodee NA has a policy going into effect in April, and discusses similar reasons why the “one-size-fits-all” system of distribution has undermined the financial position of Friendly Local Game Stores which offer additional services and community in addition to selling games (see “ICv2 Interview: Asmodee North America CEO Christian Petersen, Part 2”). WizKids introduced a policy limiting preorders on new HeroClix product last year (see “Rolling for Initiative--Kudos to WizKids” and Mayfair Games has a long-standing policy limiting online discount as well (see “Online Discounting of Games - One Year Later”).
And so with enough success every company begins down the GW road.
Be careful, he who fights monsters, to not eventually become the monster.
Oh well... If anything I have finally broken my weird need to play "the most popular" systems, and have found infinitely more hobby fun, and actual enjoyment in games, often from the tiniest publishers. Hell, Guild-Ball essentially out Warmahordes, Warmahordes, with just as well written, just as competitive rules, and a less aggressive, anti-hobby, pro-douche-bag atmosphere.
ced1106 wrote: Privateer plans to create a list of retailers that it views as “free riders,” which it defines as “retailers …offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services
ced1106 wrote: While we cannot and would not dictate to our distributor partners who they can or cannot sell to
Yeah...maybe proofread stuff before publishing a statement.
This is just ridiculous and even below GW levels. I don't even know what to say on this...they complain about people having /decided/ to have an actual store having to pay for overhead and thus being forced to sell models for more? Yeah...so...if you can't run a Brick n' Mortar in the internet age, don't run it. Duh. This is amazing - and is this even legal?
As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
And that is noble of you, and something I respect. I likewise try to buy "something" every time I game at a FLGS to show support, and appreciation for them hosting tables, etc...
That said, i've also seen plenty of them pay their bills by grifting kids out of Pokemon cards, or Magic cards, or relegate their miniatures gamers to 2nd class citizens.
That's the thing. Game stores aren't a single "entity" to be "defended" by Privateer, or anyone else. They're businesses and the local community, economy, etc... will decide if they live or die. Frankly the last thing we need is any company emulating GW, who mostly just managed to make people hate them by enforcing dictatorial rule over a game.
I take this as nothing more than a sign that Privateer is doing too well, and might need a good old consumer adjustment, where fans show them how much they appreciate this sort of command from on high. But hey... Fantasy Flight tried this crap with X-wing, and reversed the decision almost immediately when sales briefly tumbled and Amazon huffed and puffed.
Well, I have bought 2 PP products in the last.. 12 or so years? Both were through Miniature Market.. who.. has an actual storefront as far as I know.. sooo.. this is funny to me.
So as a gamer with no LGS, I shop exclusively online. Now I will potentially be facing higher prices because PP wants to be "noble" and help the poor old LGS owner by blacklisting certain businesses. Nice.
The deep discounts were actually enabling me to buy their product. At MSRP their prices are a joke. Even some things at discount make me carefully consider them.
Oh well, no big loss. Plenty of more enjoyable games out there for me to throw money at.
Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
"offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services”
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
Will they be ok? There isn't a clear cut definition by what Privateer Press dictates as a "deep discount and offering". They didn't give any examples of these "deep discounts" or how they determine what "nothing in the way of services" means. Simply having a store front doesn't mean an online presence and/or store is protected as it is subjective based on how they defined it. What separates a clearance or sale price from a "deep discount" and since they will add and remove stores on a whim based on what they deem fit?
If this is some sort of April Fool's joke, it is in really poor taste.
I'd be curious to know what Privateer Press will do in return to support the communities at local stores as well, since, you know, this is totally about the services these stores provide and not PP maximizing profits.
Completely anecdotal, but my nearest FLGS had a huge end of year clear-out on unsold stock, offering a 50% off + buy2-get-1-free offer. I stopped by yesterday, months after they started the sale, and that discount shelf is still loaded with PP stuff, while the GW stuff is gone and others are all but cleared out. Sure seems like PP hasn't done much to support the community when they're practically giving away the stuff at this store and no one is buying.
If anyone is interested and in the Austin, Texas area, the store is Tribe Games. Can't say specifically what all they had because I didn't care enough to look, but there is a decent amount there.
I wonder if the competitive nature of the game itself does not hamper sales to a degree. This has been billed as a refuge for those that want competitive play, and are unsatisfied by GW. But when Privateer releases a new book or unit that does not pass the 'sniff test' from the competitive crowd, is it then dead on arrival in shops when word gets around that it's not a world beating unit? We know this happens in 40K, and it is a much less competition focused game. At least in how GW promotes it, compared to how Privateer tries to sell Warmahordes.
Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
And that is noble of you, and something I respect. I likewise try to buy "something" every time I game at a FLGS to show support, and appreciation for them hosting tables, etc...
That said, i've also seen plenty of them pay their bills by grifting kids out of Pokemon cards, or Magic cards, or relegate their miniatures gamers to 2nd class citizens.
That's the thing. Game stores aren't a single "entity" to be "defended" by Privateer, or anyone else. They're businesses and the local community, economy, etc... will decide if they live or die. Frankly the last thing we need is any company emulating GW, who mostly just managed to make people hate them by enforcing dictatorial rule over a game.
I take this as nothing more than a sign that Privateer is doing too well, and might need a good old consumer adjustment, where fans show them how much they appreciate this sort of command from on high. But hey... Fantasy Flight tried this crap with X-wing, and reversed the decision almost immediately when sales briefly tumbled and Amazon huffed and puffed.
I don't think it is a good decision on their part, morally or business-wise, my indifference is because I have enough world experience to be apathetic when people decide to dig themselves into a hole. They could avoid the problem entirely by pricing things more reasonably; 20% off a $30 box is a lot less attractive than 20% off a $60 box, especially when the price of shipping doesn't change.
What bizarro wargaming world have I stepped into where GW is releasing discount boxsets and engaging with the community again and PP are exerting draconian measures from their Iron Tower.
Whether or not you like the effect that online discounters have, it is frankly naive to think that any company like PP can actually fight these economic trends. The move to online discounters is waaaaaaay bigger than the hobby games market.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
"offering Privateer Press products at an unsustainable deep discount and offer[ing] very little or nothing in the way of services”
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Eh, Miniature Market and The Warstore will be OK, as they are physical stores. Discount Games might be a bit boned. Interestingly, it says they'll delay product to those distributors, not refuse to ship. I think its preferably to offer in-store promos like Wyrd does with Malifaux... carrot enticement goes over better with the gaming community rather than stick deterrent.
Will they be ok? There isn't a clear cut definition by what Privateer Press dictates as a "deep discount and offering". They didn't give any examples of these "deep discounts" or how they determine what "nothing in the way of services" means. Simply having a store front doesn't mean an online presence and/or store is protected as it is subjective based on how they defined it. What separates a clearance or sale price from a "deep discount" and since they will add and remove stores on a whim based on what they deem fit?
Why would they? One of my best buds moved to Minneapolis, and MM is literally his FLGS. They run events and everything. The failure of other LGS to catch up is entirely their own. Frankly, if you cant offer 20% discount online, it's your own friggin fault.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why would they? One of my best buds moved to Minneapolis, and MM is literally his FLGS. They run events and everything. The failure of other LGS to catch up is entirely their own. Frankly, if you cant offer 20% discount online, it's your own friggin fault.
Because they didn't define what actual amount of the discount that they define as deep discount. MM gives more than 20% on quite a few PP items. If 20% is the cutoff then even if they have a FLGS their statement says they "could" go in the "free riders" list.
Also, way to be classy, PP. Saying that they "steal sales" is being incredibly antagonistic to the stores who are probably some of your biggest retailers.
The only thing I buy local is paint, I would love to support some of the local game stores, most in my area are rubbish. However most dont want to compete with online prices, and it a world where our table top games are already overly expensive I need to stretch my dollar even further just to afford to field a full army. My current example, I play Trollbloods and want a Glacier King, $134 retail or $91 on ebay with free shipping. That nets me $40 to spend on an entire Unit!! What do they expect us to do? It tells me that at $91 that dude is still making a profit, so they can afford to lower the price of these models.
"Bbbut....muh Privateer Press would never do that! GW is just an evil corporation who is trying to screw over the customers!"
I've been waiting for this day. Where is your god now? Maybe now, finally, we can stop hearing about how PP can do no wrong. The best part is, PP didn't even wait until they went public to pull this.
They could have at least waited until all the restic garbage in their line had been updated. Tough to swallow paying anywhere near retail for some of that stuff.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
Seems like a strange reason. A lot of games coming out don't require the sort of repeat purchases that Games Workshop games require. I've seen the game die out because of the toxic community it attracts (my FLGS owner flat out said the game attracts the 'worst of the worst' when I was looking for a game to get into when I was getting disinterested in 40k), but not because the game doesn't require repeat purchases.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Recently my store firesaled all of their PP stuff that isnt paint.
The problem allways seemed to be that most of the time you only needed 1 box or one of the blisters. It isnt like 40k where sometimes someone will just buy another box because it is cool. I just got some tempustus scions cause they are an awesomely fun kit, that doesnt happen in warmachine with alot of stuff is just bare metal or resin.
Seems like a strange reason. A lot of games coming out don't require the sort of repeat purchases that Games Workshop games require. I've seen the game die out because of the toxic community it attracts (my FLGS owner flat out said the game attracts the 'worst of the worst' when I was looking for a game to get into when I was getting disinterested in 40k), but not because the game doesn't require repeat purchases.
That is just what i heard.
Let me put it this way, no one I knew ever bought the khador jack kit more than once.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
That might be helping drive the success of X-Wing, since most SKUs are $15.
Honestly the fact PP are following the other wargame industry lemmings off the cliff in their doomed collective attempt to pretend this is still the 90's is less surprising to me than the tone of the announcement.
I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public.
This is Kirby-esque rhetoric, right up there with pig law, IP moats, and otiose nichery. Someone at PP needs a slap.
Calling it the 'Free Rider' policy is itself an incredibly poor business move.
It deliberately sets up a narrative that some customers are worth less than others. They think they are speaking about the retailers of course, but they are also speaking about the people who buy from them.
Only buy from online stores? You are now associated with freeloading. Its a connection people will automatically make about themselves, and it is going to annoy them. A lot.
You can take steps to shift sales to B&M stores without being confrontational, this is about the worst way possible to try it (even if its ultimately doomed to fail anyway).
Whoever wrote that shouldn't be in the job they are in.
The games thrives on actual stores or clubs for gaming environments. When it gets too expensive to run product in the FLGS, it will simply stop offering the product. When PressGangers are active in the local clubs all is well, but if there is none the game is likely to dry out.
In Copenhagen a good store closed some years ago because a good handful played there while buying PP and GW products online with discount. Another big FLGS discontinued PP, likely because the sale was too low, while 40K is seeing a lot of activity in Cph within the last couple of years, in good part due to the FLGS nursing the game.
Personally speaking, if it wasn't for this activity more of my hobby budget would go to CMoNs KS model.
Local stores over here stopped stocking new PP stuff. They can't even seem to sell the stuff they have in store atm, even with a buy 2 get 1 item free deal.
I don't think this policy will help them much though.
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly the fact PP are following the other wargame industry lemmings off the cliff in their doomed collective attempt to pretend this is still the 90's is less surprising to me than the tone of the announcement.
I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public.
This is Kirby-esque rhetoric, right up there with pig law, IP moats, and otiose nichery. Someone at PP needs a slap.
Indeed. Horrible PR to use that kind of language.
Are we sure it's not a elaborate Aprils fool joke that somehow got published too early?
So what I'm reading is this: Game company's and game stores need to make X and Y in dollars to survive.
But you are all entitled to buy said products at price A, because you can't afford or don't think the products are worth price X/Y.
So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: This is why WGF was such a godsend, and why Warlord's price lynching (hiked it right off the ground) on the survivors is such a bad idea. It's also why Mantic's price increases are so stupid, since Mantic only tends to sell to people like me with low impulse control.
It's not that long ago that people said the same kind of thing about Privateer Press. The times, they are a-changing.
General Hobbs wrote: So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
What cannot survive, doesn't necessarily deserve to. Wait a few decades and domestic 3d printing might get to the point we can get passable gaming miniatures printed in the comfort of our own homes. The old business model might die, but you're bonkers if you don't think that future ones won't arise. Perhaps entrepreneurs of tomorrow will sell 3D patterns for home crafting. It is, as always, vitally important to separate what's good for the hobby from what's good for the companies involved. The fortunes of wargaming are not tied to the lot of any one commercial entity.
So if they know who the 'offending' people are, then just offer discounts on your stuff, or some other sort of bonus to the people who are doing what you want.
Also, delaying stuff to big distributors is bad business. If they aren't able to sell your stuff to stores because you delayed it, they just won't buy it any more. And those evil online retailers will just go to one of your 'approved' distributors, to get things in a more timely manner. And then the cycle begins again.
It's not like these online retailers are scalpers who buy out an item, then sell it back to the consumers at an inflated cost. They are taking a loss on the item because the retail price is already too high for manyt players. People really want the item, so they purchase it for as cheap as they can get.
I really don't understand the idea that you would want to hurt, or hinder anything to do with people purchasing your products. I assume that this is why you started a company in the first place, to sell things, and keep people excited in those things.
I really like Warmachine and hordes, they are fun games, with nice miniatures. But if you'd like to make it more difficult, or more expensive for me to purchase your items, I may have to stop buying them.
So what I'm reading is this: Game company's and game stores need to make X and Y in dollars to survive.
But you are all entitled to buy said products at price A, because you can't afford or don't think the products are worth price X/Y.
So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
Eventually investors and entrepeneurs will look at the failed business model and stay away, and then watch miniature gaming go back to where it was years ago, with crappy models, and people playing part time once a month or every couple months at some community event room.
You can accuse the game company of greed, but I think the people who cry about the cost of the models are the really greedy ones.
As I dont play PP games this purely theoretical, but many people (like my gaming group) dont play in stores. We play at home or rent our own locations, so dont come ask us to subsidize your gamings space, thats mighty greedy of you
This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
General Hobbs wrote: So...what happens when the game stores fold up and their's no place to play, and the game company decides it is not worth the money making product anyone?
What happens is that this doesn't happen. As others have said, they play games at private residences. At least for boardgames, if all the FLGS's dried up, we'd still be playing at people's houses and buying from the OLGS. Thanks to Magic, FLGS's have *not* dried up, though, as someone who plays boardgames through Meetups, I don't know what fraction of FLGS's support either gaming, or miniatures wargaming in particular, in the first place. In the Silicon Valley, real estate prices are high, and no amount of price adjustments are going to save them when the rents go up even further. Despite PP (and Asmodee's) decisions, Mantic (and CMON) certainly don't think the market for miniature wargaming and boadgames is on the decline (although maybe we're in a glut that some companies see and we don't), so *somebody's* seeing a demand and are there to satisfy it.
@Steve: I didn't understand your post. I've always thought online stores had stock, don't know how they're huge credit risks, and don't grow sales. As an alpha boardgamer, I don't need the OLGS to grow sales, since that's done by BoardGameGeek and word-of-mouth gaming advocacy ("Hey, anyone want to play this new game?").
Steve steveson wrote: This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
Online stores hold zero stock? Are you saying MM or DGI hold no stock at all then?
Also, I have no idea who's in charge of PP's asian sales, but there's a huge issue with their asian coverage. I've had both Malaysian and Singaporean storekeepers complain/explain to me why my pre-order for PP stuff is taking so long and it basically boils down to their distributor in asia is crap.
and with even more hidden metrics so nobody's actually going to be able to tell if you're acting on your words for a good long time.
I wonder how Asmodees (remember they now have FFG and Xwing/Armada in their stable) version will work as it's meant to be coming in tomorrow (April) are the major online discounter like MM/Amazon/ebay sellers actually going to be hit or even dropped, I doubt it
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit that 'parasitic'-thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
There are quite some deep-discounters that only order stock when you order from them. In the end they will kill the market when left unchecked.
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit the 'parasitic'-dogma thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
Guess which shops would be the first to try to sue PP over such a thing...
Samurai_Eduh wrote: "Bbbut....muh Privateer Press would never do that! GW is just an evil corporation who is trying to screw over the customers!"
I've been waiting for this day. Where is your god now? Maybe now, finally, we can stop hearing about how PP can do no wrong. The best part is, PP didn't even wait until they went public to pull this.
The thing is, I can't really see how it helps PP to do this. GW you can call greedy scumbags for killing online sales because they're obviously trying to divert sales to their own channels where they make a larger profit on each sale.
Eldarain wrote: What bizarro wargaming world have I stepped into where GW is releasing discount boxsets and engaging with the community again and PP are exerting draconian measures from their Iron Tower.
Either the beginning of a GW Renaissance or the Dark Ages for all. I hope we get lucky, but hope is the first step on the path to disappointment. Also this is one more news I can shove in peoples face when they come at me with that holier than thou attitude they throw at me for playing GW and them playing privateer press as if that makes them a friggen saint.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: There are quite some deep-discounters that only order stock when you order from them. In the end they will kill the market when left unchecked.
Sad times... why not offer bonus products to shops who... I dare to use that term.. do not fit the 'parasitic'-dogma thingy? Like support the no-freeriders with interesting LE models, books with additional posters/maps/foldout pages etc which are only offered via a Premium Shop-membership. If you pay more, you should get more, I guess.
Guess which shops would be the first to try to sue PP over such a thing...
So you say shops would be able to sue PP for offering bonus products to certain physical shops, but not for outright refusing to do business with certain online-shops?
I'd guess that either both or none of those practices would be disallowed, but if only one of them would be, It seems like it's probably the practice that PP are about to instate now.
Steve steveson wrote: This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertise it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
Online stores hold zero stock? Are you saying MM or DGI hold no stock at all then?
Not all of them, but many don't. If you buy from somewhere that does not ship within 24 hours the chances are that is because they don't hold any, or very much, stock.
Dumb move by PP. I can see the argument - I buy from local shops because I like having somewhere to browse and meet other hobbyists.
But there are better ways to go about it than this sort of self righteous rhetoric and labelling of customers. Discounters still buy your stock, you're still making money off of them.
And honestly, PP, look at yourself in the mirror. You're charging premium prices for product often plagued by scaling issues, in inferior or inappropriate materials and with shoddy production in some cases. I know things have been improving, but the prices on PP kits have always been as bad or worse than GW without the benefit of being multi-part plastic. Heavy multipart metal minis are a stupid choice, as even with pinning and greenstuffing they come apart.
I enjoy PP games, but they're by no means the perfect company. That might be someone like the Perrys.
Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?
That sueing comment... Trade contracts always work like this. Benefitting from fulfilling special terms is standard business practice in the western market.
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly the fact PP are following the other wargame industry lemmings off the cliff in their doomed collective attempt to pretend this is still the 90's is less surprising to me than the tone of the announcement.
I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public.
This is Kirby-esque rhetoric, right up there with pig law, IP moats, and otiose nichery. Someone at PP needs a slap.
Yeah, it's really antagonistic. Also, to people like me who mostly play tabletop games on a dining room table, if we're going to start talking about which stores are parasites in this scenario and which I'd miss more, I think I'd be picking different targets than PP is. I like lower prices way more than I care about stores with play space.
lord_blackfang wrote: Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?
The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.
Had always wondered at what point PP would start to go down the GW route and this looks like a good indicator; agree with previous posters who say that the tone of this is off
Does PP have shareholders? If yes, I'd jump the ship right now. They are literally telling people they want to sell less. Like...what? A business that tells you they want to sell less is a business you should not trust your money with...at all.
They will sell less unless they do this. Stores will stop stocking it people will hear about it less and less then they die out. Thats why you need bandm stores.
I'm really not convinced that the FLGS is the holy necessity for gaming that people seem to think it is, at least not in the modern age of social media. You really don't need a store to find players for things.
FLGS have a place, and I'd rather support them than a few big online retailers. I like to put money into the local economy.
PP's problems are (as far as I can see) that they are charging over the top prices for arguably inferior product. I know their game system is good, but their miniatures are not really worth the price in some cases, especially given the hassle involved in assembly and transport.
’ While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it’s crippling and anticompetitive.”
I dont understand this line at all. Anyone care to explain?
They're saying that gaming relies on the network effect and finding other people to play with to a much greater degree (as well as shared spaces to actually game in).
So atomising communities by not supporting the "hubs" where people meet is bad news for gaming as a whole.
Now, there are arguments against this for sure. You can achieve a similar thing with social media and an organised club. Some might even feel that that is better than a gaming space tied to a commercial enterprise.
But it is true for sure that the current model in the US at least is heavily reliant on game stores as hubs to get people into hobby games.
’ While this can be a viable business model for many mainstream products, it is common knowledge that in our industry it’s crippling and anticompetitive.”
I dont understand this line at all. Anyone care to explain?
They misunderstand the term anticompetitive. What they mean is that the web-only stores can be more competitive and undercut the trad stores. That's the same in every industry though, so why PP think they're special and can "fix it" I have no idea.
Zywus wrote: Are we sure it's not a elaborate Aprils fool joke that somehow got published too early?
If it is an April Fools joke, someone still needs to be fired for gross incompetence. Good business practice doesn't take a holiday on April 1st, and a business that lies to you for their own amusement doesn't deserve your money.
It was a bad move when GW started doing it (and I believe is *still* doing it), and it's a bad move that PP is now doing the same thing.
It is funny how the situations are starting to turn for these two companies as far as recent news. Who'd have guessed that companies doing dick things would build up ire in the customer bases? Here I was thinking people were just jealous of GW's past suceess.
I am not a fan of GW's decision to do this (or FFG/Asmodee's similar decision), but I understand it - to some extent. Building a community of players is paramount for the continued success of what are explicitly multiplayer games. Encouraging FLGS sales is one way to build that community... but I'm not sure taking away a benefit that a large portion of your fanbase enjoys is really a move that is going to be welcomed. It's one thing if you never let those discounts become the normal in the first place, but doing this so late in the game just makes it seem like a (significant) price increase.
And there's the issue that even deeply discounted, a lot of PP's miniatures are terrible quality. The All-in-One boxes I bought for Convergence and Retribution were the worst, most frustrating miniatures I've ever bought, and a number of figures, I considered just outright throwing away due to defects. Even at an extreme discount provided by the All-in-One box plus online discounts, they were a monumental waste of money. Before making what is sure to be an extremely unpopular decision, PP needed to get their gak together.
Sigvatr wrote: Does PP have shareholders? If yes, I'd jump the ship right now. They are literally telling people they want to sell less. Like...what? A business that tells you they want to sell less is a business you should not trust your money with...at all.
"Sales are vanity, profit is sanity and cash flow is king".
One of the first things a small business owner is told by their accountant or bank business advisor is "find your niche, don't try to compete on high volumes and low margins". More profit on fewer sales is fine - keeps your variable costs low. It means the loss of each customer is more dangerous, but customer retention is another topic.
I don't think PP's statement is a great move either, BTW.
I can understand the desire, but I don't think this works so well.
I think supporting stores is a better way to do it, giving them incentives including ways for them to offer discounts in some ways.
People like discounts, even if they don't really save anything.
In the end people who don't have stores may end up feeling disenfranchised.
I don't have a store near me currently, so if it raises prices it won't do anything for me at all.
Online stores can help community's, one of the ones I buy from even sends a few free things for us as a community to use.
I will wait and see still, it may only be targeting a few people offering things at a extreme.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: There are quite some deep-discounters that only order stock when you order from them. In the end they will kill the market when left unchecked.
So Walmart's been killing the market for decades with their JIT inventory system. Got it.
While I'm not shocked at how many people disagree with this move, I do have to say that as a gamer who has spent a lot of time buying and selling PP products over the last decade, their products have devalued greatly in the last handful of years. Not only do they only seem to sell at ridiculous discount when still brand new (consistently 50% off retail), but they've become near worthless in the second-hand market. If you're trading it for products from another company, you pretty much always have to expect to be trading at a loss in retail value, assuming you can find anyone who wants it at all.
This is just ridiculous and even below GW levels. I don't even know what to say on this...they complain about people having /decided/ to have an actual store having to pay for overhead and thus being forced to sell models for more? Yeah...so...if you can't run a Brick n' Mortar in the internet age, don't run it. Duh. This is amazing - and is this even legal?
I guess it's according to each countries laws. In Greece it is not legal. You have absolutely no right to refuse sale. What you can do is limit the quantity i.e. "we can provide till x units per month, that's the limit of our production/handling capacity".
(Btw, with all respect to the OP, this news may not be valid due to the manner it has been written, so this is my opinion but I take it with a pinch of salt.)
As for online retailers, speaking for ourselves, we have refused collaboration with some due to their demanding even larger discounts than the ones we were willing to offer in our ToT (Terms of Trade). I'm not saying -and in no way can I know- if that's the case with PP, but companies that do succumb to this end up having only two choices; inevitably rise the MSRP or stop collaboration. Otherwise there is no profit, and with no profit... yeah, we all know how a business model works... :-)
Yodhrin wrote: I mean seriously, what kind of amateur-hour numpty announces a new trade sales policy by branding a non-trivial portion of your trade partners(and, by implication, their customers) as "parasitical free riders"? Even if that's what you think it's not what you say out loud in public
Which is why I think this may not have been written by them but instead may be a hoax.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm really not convinced that the FLGS is the holy necessity for gaming that people seem to think it is, at least not in the modern age of social media. You really don't need a store to find players for things.
On the contrary I think it is *exactly* what people need to make the market grow. It's a whole different thing to see a picture, compared to seeing the models laying all out in front of you, aligned and ready for battle. No internet picture is ever going to capture the feeling when you hold your first metal miniature in your hands and say/think "oh! heavy!"
At least that's our take and we try supporting "live" events anywhere possible.
EDIT: I just saw the PP announcement on their page. Unless this is an April fool's joke, I stand corrected.
In the US this is perfectly legal in the UK it is very questionable. Especially as Cerberus cast the stuff in the UK and the actual punishment (delayed shipping) hits the distributors not the stores I can potentially see the distributors going after Cerberus, if they try and enforce this, as being anti- competitive.
This is all due to the US Supreme Court deciding that vertical pricing was legal in certain circumstances and game stores pretty much fit the definition of the circumstances.
There is no such exception in the UK/EU though so what it might come down to if implemented in the UK/EU is if there are any shops actually willing to challenge a distributor and basically accept they will never be supplied by them ever again. The distributors are often "on the edge" of existing competition law and have never been challenged so we'll just have to see.
lord_blackfang wrote: Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?
The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.
No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical. PP decided to be GW whilst working on Mk2 at the latest and they were defended every step of the way, from nerfing models and then giving a new model the old model's rules to make people buy a new model to get access to old abilities, to jacking up prices when switching from metal to plastic justified by "extra bits", then still doing it with kits that don't even have extra bits, to abandoning a "specialist game" without even an explanation, to censoring criticism, to ridiculing GW and their fans, then turning around and doing the exact same things (plastic is for nancy boys!)
This isn't a new direction for PP, just another stepping stone on a path they've been taking for many years. Just the first time the majority is outraged because it hits them in the wallet.
What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!
Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?
I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?
I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.
My experience with the game is that a lot of players are pretty cool, individually. I'll say all sorts of nasty things about the game and its makers, but I've have nothing but pleasant experiences with the players, even if they occasionally frustrate me with their choices.
Besides, I think this is an issue that is more and more affecting the entirety of physical gaming. Games Workshop was the first, but several other companies have followed suit, and I doubt Privateer Press will be the last one. I think we need to come together and communicate that these changes are not in the best interest of their customers, and making an already expensive niche hobby even more expensive will ultimately create less players, not more.
I haven't been able to afford miniatures for two months because $30 is the minimum buy-in price, and I'm worried that if this continues and my involvement becomes less an less, I'll end up abandoning miniature games altogether. Because of price. I no longer play Warmachine, but any chance that I would was basically removed with a 20% price increase.
I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
I'm in the same boat. When I lived in San Diego there were two stores but I didn't really game at either of those but now I live in Lemoore and it's an hour drive to a store that charges MSRP or higher. It's got a huge gaming area but I don't know anyone there and tend to game in my home.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
I'm in the same boat. When I lived in San Diego there were two stores but I didn't really game at either of those but now I live in Lemoore and it's an hour drive to a store that charges MSRP or higher. It's got a huge gaming area but I don't know anyone there and tend to game in my home.
It's not impossible for me to make the trip, but because the costs involved are high, it's almost as though I'm paying the Australian Tax on miniatures
That is the biggest problem with this sort of policy. They're defending one aspect of the industry in one setting (Game stores in the US). But in doing so, they harm customers in other settings (rural customers, and probably distributors in Europe who can't play by those rules).
I think companies often tend to gravitate toward the models they know and understand. GW often seems tonedeaf and stupid to americans because their model was developed (and works fairly well) in the UK, but doesn't transfer as well to the US where there are more game stores and crucially, cheaper rents for game stores with lots of floor space.
On the flipside, this policy of Privateer Press makes sense in the US where the FLGS is the heart of most gaming communities, but less in the UK where there is less market penetration.
I mean, in Ireland, you're talking about maybe 3 or 4 places where you can buy PP models at all.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Can I just point out, if it hasn't been said already, that this is a company built on a ruleset that tells people to "Play like they have a pair...", and seems a magnetic for antagonism?
I've met many great Warmahordes players, and the game is tight, but I've also never seen a community so belligerant. I feel like that has to come from somewhere, and seeing one of the worst written press-releases from a company I have ever seen, in that same tone, somehow doesn't surprise me.
My thoughts exactly. I would still play and enjoy the game, but the typical players ruined it for me. I can't go to a local league/open play/whatever night because there is a fair-to-strong chance I'm going to get paired with an aggressive, power gaming, hobby-doesn't-matter douche that I then either have to suffer a game with to be "cool" with the group, or deny a game to and be considered a stuck up donkey-cave. Not worth it if you want to just paint cool models and have fun playing a game.
The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.
UWOTM8!
My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.
Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.
Agamemnon2 wrote: What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!
I've noticed a pretty steep decline in my PP purchases over the last few months. This probably isn't going to help buck that trend.
Silly decisions like this are what make me enjoy the whole Kickstarter model even more. Something which Privateer just put to great use, didn't they, cutting out those game shops in the process...
Silly decisions like this are what make me enjoy the whole Kickstarter model even more. Something which Privateer just put to great use, didn't they, cutting out those game shops in the process...
Do you know what grinds FLGS owner's gears even more? Kickstarter (well, specifically Mantic's ones if you ask the owner of my FLGS.).
The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.
UWOTM8!
My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.
Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.
I mostly buy from Wayland, so that's good news. Crisis over! Thanks.
The constant tit for tat point-scoring excercise between GW and PP fans seems rather infantile to me.
UWOTM8!
My wargame company could totally beat up your wargaming company.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I can sympathise with the idea that people want to build gaming hubs and communities, but as always, I'll point out the fact that my nearest game store is a 6 hour round trip, drive away.
If I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy anything. Announcements like this make me mad
I assume from your flag you're in the UK too. Can I just point out a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding this (mainly due to said announcement lacking a certain amount of tact). From what I gather this isn't just "you can only buy pp products in b&m stores" or "They're directing people to the pp site like wot GW did!" (Which is laughable as the pp site does not sell current product. You can only get classics and exclusives wrt miniatures), they're simply saying they don't like online stores that are ONLY online stores. Places like Wayland, Dark Sphere, Firestorm et al. are as far as I understand, unaffected. So, you can keep buying as normal.
Could they have been more subtle about it? Damn straight. Could they have been clearer? Yup. I find it a weird irony, that Privateer Press, a company known for clear and concise rules put out this confusing and aggressive statement.
I mostly buy from Wayland, so that's good news. Crisis over! Thanks.
Someone feel free to correct me, but that is my understanding.
Da Boss wrote: That is the biggest problem with this sort of policy. They're defending one aspect of the industry in one setting (Game stores in the US). But in doing so, they harm customers in other settings (rural customers, and probably distributors in Europe who can't play by those rules).
I think companies often tend to gravitate toward the models they know and understand. GW often seems tonedeaf and stupid to americans because their model was developed (and works fairly well) in the UK, but doesn't transfer as well to the US where there are more game stores and crucially, cheaper rents for game stores with lots of floor space.
On the flipside, this policy of Privateer Press makes sense in the US where the FLGS is the heart of most gaming communities, but less in the UK where there is less market penetration.
I mean, in Ireland, you're talking about maybe 3 or 4 places where you can buy PP models at all.
We in the UK don't really seem to have big US style online discounters (if we do please let me know). Instead most of the online stores I know, include the ones that get recommended a lot here like Firestorm, Element and Darksphere seems, to be around 10-20% off. So it seems unlikely we'll be affected by this.
lord_blackfang wrote: Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?
The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.
No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical. PP decided to be GW whilst working on Mk2 at the latest and they were defended every step of the way, from nerfing models and then giving a new model the old model's rules to make people buy a new model to get access to old abilities, to jacking up prices when switching from metal to plastic justified by "extra bits", then still doing it with kits that don't even have extra bits, to abandoning a "specialist game" without even an explanation, to censoring criticism, to ridiculing GW and their fans, then turning around and doing the exact same things (plastic is for nancy boys!)
This isn't a new direction for PP, just another stepping stone on a path they've been taking for many years. Just the first time the majority is outraged because it hits them in the wallet.
Well put.
Even assuming they did this with good intentions, wow, that was one hell of a horrible spin they made on their own announcement. Except, yeah, I don't think it represents any fundamental shift in their plans. I jumped ship due to not liking what I'd been seeing, honestly looked back a few times and the only thing I regret is more transparent tactics that were easier to follow, and a few forumites who were good and/or fun people.
Does this indicate PP is experiencing severely reduced revenue? It reads as very desperate.
As mentioned, they're basically attacking the evolution of shopping via the internet. Instead of trying to shut down discount sellers, why don't they create incentives to actually shop at an FLGS? I'm a "free rider" by their definition, because I'd rather save 25%. They, and FLGs, need to adapt to the times. Create incentive-based tournaments, offer more "services" in-store so that I can support them (and I want to!).
So dumb. My group just started getting into WMH, but this is a huge turnoff.
This is totally a good opportunity for members of the same niche market to make fun of each other and rub salt in the proverbial wounds of others - yet again, the tabletop gaming community has shown how truly wonderful it can be.
Anyone notice how quickly people went from "Screw PP!" to "Screw people who play PP games!"?
I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.
lord_blackfang wrote: Huh, well, this thread surprised me. I was expecting the usual "It's bad when GW does it, it's fine when PP does it" spiel. Is the fanbase finally growing up?
The fanbase has always been grown up, it's just GW "does it" far more than anyone else.
No, the fanbase has always been blind, immature and hypocritical.
Well you sure have convinced me that you're a mature poster yourself with that one! It's such a grown up move to insult an entire group of people with a general statement like that!
...and they were defended every step of the way...
What, you mean like how there's a bunch of people defend GW at every step of the way?
When PP does something, you get some people criticising and some people defending. When GW does something, you get some people criticising and some people defending. It's almost like a fanbase is actually made up of a whole heap of different individuals who may or may not share the same opinions, shocking I know!
A fanbase can't be hypocritical because a fanbase is not a single entity. I don't know why people act like it is so often.
When you get opinion swaying heavily one way or the other it simply means a larger portion of the fanbase finds it reprehensible or indefensible. Though it's still worth noting that even this thread isn't unanimously attacking PP... it's almost like some people have minds of their own!
To be fair the whole shops/internet shopping thing runs very deep, PP won't be the first to suffer like this (as both GW and Battlefront amongst others have done the same previously) and I'm not sure what the answer is. Although the tone of the article is very poor form, that company also obviously has it's own share of social misfits that don't know how to communicate properly.
Agamemnon2 wrote: What's important here is that we the community can attack each other as much and as harshly as at all possible, clearly. Nevermind anything else, this news must be taken advantage of to score points in an asinine power struggle between fandoms!
...eedjits.
The saddest thing about this thread is the long-suffering GW fans hobbling out to smirk and point before doing a Nelson "Ha Ha!"
Smellingsalts wrote: I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.
Holy wall of text batman. So a few things
1: UK has kinda proved you dont need an FLGS to grow a community.
2: the best way, Iin my experiance and my opinion to make a game grow and have them buy from you? Events for the game they play, more tournaments, more game nights, more of everything, it shows you care about them more past their $$$$, the problem is that how most FLGS people see their customers, as walking wallets.
This is very disappointing. Even if it doesn't change anything practically (and I don't really see how it will) it is a stupid thing to think, and a stupider thing to say. If you want to grow your community, make it cheaper to become part of the community. Don't complain about people who sell your product for very little profit on their end. Local game stores don't sell much PP because the models are way over priced, and even at 20% off are expensive for what they are. These are not super nice models that make sense at boutique prices. Most units only have ~3 sculpts among 10 guys. The online stores selling for deep discounts are doing PP a favor, getting people into the game for less money. The game is good but has a steep learning curve, and as the many, many threads along the lines of "Starting X, what should I get?" demonstrate it is a big monetary investment that makes buying anything risky for new players. Lower prices solve at least part of the start up problem.
And for feth sake, don't misuse terms like "free rider".
Clanan wrote: Does this indicate PP is experiencing severely reduced revenue? It reads as very desperate.
No, they get the same money selling to online discounters as they do from FLGS. Doesn't matter how much the store charges the end customer.
What they're probably experiencing is a plateau in their growth, and they're clearly blaming the online retailers, because these do not recruit new players while brick and mortar stores supposedly do. And while there may be some truth to that, it's also true that Warmahordes itself has reached a plateau in its evolution and is at the point where they're just shoehorning fancy new models in but adding little to the play experience, giving little incentive to players to spend more money. Meanwhile, plenty of competing games have reached that sweet spot of exciting growth Warmahordes was in five years ago. PP is experiencing a stall in growth for the same reason GW is, and they're handling it in the same asinine way.
Nostromodamus wrote: Guess they don't like online stores competing like they've got a pair.
?
Now that was a well-aimed blow.
The last time I bought any PP product, there were two miscast pieces. In order to get replacements, I had to go through all kinds of hurdles and send pictures and everything. A month later, they sent me two wrong pieces. I sent them more pictures and more description. Then I waited two more months for the correct pieces. So, either PP thinks I'm a criminal swindling them out of left arms, or PP has no regard for their customers at all. For the prices, their customer service should be better than Mantic's.
Smellingsalts wrote: I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.
While I can completely sympathize with your situation, and wish you all the best, I think that the problem here may be somewhat different then a simple case of goods being undercut by online retailers with less footprint.
That is, in all honesty, I think that PP has allowed their product to slip relative to their competitors, such that the market no longer values their goods the same way PP values them.
Let me put it another way: I have (on many occasions) paid $25 or more, plus shipping and handling on top of that, for single miniatures from the Kingdom Death online store. I've paid that not simply because they were limited, but because I believed these figures were worth the price.
I simply can't say the same for PP's stuff anymore: maybe I'm still bitter from the launch of Convergence of Cyriss, but I haven't bought any PP products for ages, simply because I find many of their miniatures are not worth anything near the price they are asking for them. It's not just that their haven't gone to HIPS on the vast majority of their lines, it's that their lines suffer overall from dated and poor sculpts at best, and bad production at worst.
PP is charging a premium price for what is, IMO, an inferior product. Mantic, for example, does not charge what GW does, yet PP has many boxes that hover around Mantic levels of quality, but charges premium prices.
This is not to say that all of PP's new sculpts are trash, far from it, many of their newer sculpts, especially character sculpts, are of very high quality. But by and large the bulk of the armies, the troops that you need full units of, are terrible. A fine example of this is the Cylenna Rafel (sp?) and Nyss Hunters; a great unit in game, good art in concept... but both poorly sculpted and (by all accounts) one of the worst unit of models to assemble. For me to buy that unit (which I want to buy), one of two things has to happen: it either has to be redone to not be so terrible, or, failing that, it needs to be deeply discounted.
Clanan wrote: Does this indicate PP is experiencing severely reduced revenue? It reads as very desperate.
As mentioned, they're basically attacking the evolution of shopping via the internet. Instead of trying to shut down discount sellers, why don't they create incentives to actually shop at an FLGS? I'm a "free rider" by their definition, because I'd rather save 25%. They, and FLGs, need to adapt to the times. Create incentive-based tournaments, offer more "services" in-store so that I can support them (and I want to!).
So dumb. My group just started getting into WMH, but this is a huge turnoff.
It probably is desperate.
FLGS do a lot of work for these companies, and let me tell you, a lot of them don't do anything for FLGS in the way of support. Some offer tournament and event kits. but you know what?
Those cost Money. typically anywhere from $25-50, with some larger exceptions.
Events?
They cost Money as well. Stores have to pay the guy running the event. Here in good old, WA, that would mean that a 5-7 hour long tournament or event, not at all uncommon, would cost a store anywhere from $45-63 dollars, just to pay the employee, which are not all the fees. Tack on the price of the kit and you are looking at a cool $100.
Just to run the freaking event.
You stand there and cry "It's not my problem, the stores need to adapt to the times!"
What exactly are the stores supposed to adapt to? An online business model aimed specifically at stealing customers who would rather shop on price and strangling the Brick and mortar aspect of the industry?
Did you know that most online retailers have far less costs than a FLGS? So the minimum they need to make is lower, thus they can afford to discount products far lower than normally possible, and maintain those prices all year round, fully knowing that a Brick and Mortar store couldn't compete due to the increased costs they have.
Here's a thought. Maybe Discounts should be done one special occasions, or like, on holidays. Maybe we could even have a shopping holiday, named after a day and a color. That's kinda the idea behind Discounts, that they're special. If a place discounts a product 24/7, that's not discounting. That's price gouging.
If you 'want to' support your FLGS, then fricking do it. Saying ' i want to support my local store and use their resources, but I don't want to give them my money' is kind of selfish, and is indicative of the problem that lies with today's gamers. "I want to be able to play at a nice store, with nice terrain, and nice people. But I don't want to have to be apart of that monetarily.'
These things costs FLGS money, and they have these nice things, and areas and people, so that you will spend money with them. Because lets be honest- it would be better for the FLGS to close up shop, buy a warehouse and go all digital.
TLDR; be responsible cheap -gits, and at least understand the situation before spewing out your mouth about it. No offence.
I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.
I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.
I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.
I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.
I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.
smellingsalts, I think you're moving towards some good points there, but I honestly tried four times to read that and the wall of text makes it impossible to read.
What they're probably experiencing is a plateau in their growth, and they're clearly blaming the online retailers, because these do not recruit new players while brick and mortar stores supposedly do. And while there may be some truth to that, it's also true that Warmahordes itself has reached a plateau in its evolution and is at the point where they're just shoehorning fancy new models in but adding little to the play experience, giving little incentive to players to spend more money. Meanwhile, plenty of competing games have reached that sweet spot of exciting growth Warmahordes was in five years ago. PP is experiencing a stall in growth for the same reason GW is, and they're handling it in the same asinine way.
To be honest, I would blame their clearly gakky way they approach their game. That no model painting is required, that no terrain is required, just felt cutouts. It isnt a game where people want to get into.
Nero, I appreciate your candid response, but good luck trying to shame gamers into adopting the shopping methods you espouse. I, like many others, shop on price. Instead of belittling rational consumer behavior, B&M should find more direct ways to adopt. Forcing higher prices better lead to products worth those prices, or I'll find something else to do. Just like every other gamer!
I keep reading the reply of "but I have tables and scenery and community!". That's great, but if your primary product is something I can find online for 20% cheaper, then those other "extras" need to be more enticing, especially if I can play at home or use meetup.com. I doubt most consumers will support local stores out of charity, regardless of how much shame is thrown their way. How about designing services around your amenities? I would happily pay for some sort of subscriber-based community enrichment thing.
Anyway, this all sounds like Borders and GW all over again. Instead of fighting consumer behavior, learn to deal and profit from it. Or don't. See how that goes...
TalonZahn wrote: I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.
I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.
I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.
I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.
I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.
With all due respect, costs are regional. In California, a business like Miniature Market may not be possible because the costs are much higher, but the internet effectively allows them to sell in California while avoiding those costs. Also, aberrations like someone having a lot of wealth and using it to bludgeon the market into submission are also rare. There are many reasons to be concerned about Walmart's pricing structure vs what they do to their employees and community. Many cities have kept Walmart out for fear of what they would do to mom and pop stores.
IDK about shaming, but I eat full retail on anything that isn't a big purchase- I consider the extra worth it to keep a gaming venue in business.
However, I've definitely stopped shopping at any gaming store where I don't consider their customer service and/or gaming space a boon, since, like you said, it isn't a charity.
(The difference in big purchase prices means online spaces generally see my business for anything particularly large... which hasn't been much recently, though)
So what do gamestores do to ofset the major price increase to make me buy at our store?
if you dont have what I want,, I order it, but it could take weeks to get there, Amazon it is free 1 day shipping.
If you do, I have to pay full price for it, yes convienance is a factor, but that only goes so far?
Do you offer events for the game I play? If im in there often for events, im more likely to impulse buy, if not models, paints, brushes, dice.
And dont charge for tables, that is a way to make people hate you.
With all due respect, costs are regional. In California, a business like Miniature Market may not be possible because the costs are much higher, but the internet effectively allows them to sell in California while avoiding those costs. Also, aberrations like someone having a lot of wealth and using it to bludgeon the market into submission are also rare. There are many reasons to be concerned about Walmart's pricing structure vs what they do to their employees and community. Many cities have kept Walmart out for fear of what they would do to mom and pop stores.
While that might be true, it's true for ALL online businesses/markets. A guy selling aftermarket auto parts in Iowa to a guy in California can do it cheaper than the local California shop.
However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri. He's also not employing as many people.
I get that it's hard to run a FLGS and compete against the online discounters. That FLGS has to come up with another way to compete. As I said, in most cases, those big online guys have the same infrastructure bills as the FLGS, and more/bigger bills.
It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
It strikes me as a bit odd that people are arguing over who has more/less infrastructure etc., as though it is a competition over who is really "the little guy" or some other victim. It is really a question of who serves the customer needs better.
It seems that for the most part cheap online stores and brick and mortar stores that offer good service serve the customers better, based on where customers spend their money. Stores that don't offer much in the way of resources, good customer service and/or good stock don't do well, regardless of being brick and mortar or not. Stores that manage to offer things people want and are willing to pay for do better.
The nice thing about this whole debate though is that nothing we say is really going to matter; people are going to spend where and how they want, and if PP or GW decides to limit themselves to higher price outlets, well we will see how that works out for them. I personally am disappointed to see PP shoot themselves in the foot like this because I really like their game systems, but their choice is their choice.
Wehrkind wrote: It strikes me as a bit odd that people are arguing over who has more/less infrastructure etc., as though it is a competition over who is really "the little guy" or some other victim. It is really a question of who serves the customer needs better.
That's really the point of my statements.
People cry foul because the FLGS has utility bills and employees.... well so do the online guys.
It's about what the FLGS can do, outside of discounts, to level the field.
I'm 1.5 hours from the nearest store. So unless it's a big event ro some tourney, I play at home or in other players homes.
However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri.
I... would't be so sure about that, actually.
edit-quote problems
Yeah, warehouse rents are always going to be lower than retail rents. You may be able to find some markets where warehouse rents are closer to retail rents in other markets but there's always going to be a decent sized cost gap.
Labor costs will vary depending on number of employees and location but warehousing online discounters probably need fewer employees and can save money on labor compared to retailers.
This is what technological progress does, it lowers costs by increasing productivity and efficiency. Webstores and warehouses are cheaper to operate than brick and mortar businesses.
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
I'm 1.5 hours from the nearest store. So unless it's a big event ro some tourney, I play at home or in other players homes.
Yep, that's me too. The closest store to me is about an hour away. After a 60+ hour week and a commute, that much driving time isn't in the cards. It doesn't matter that they have days assigned for each of they systems I like playing, I can't get there in a reasonable amount of time.
When I had a FLGS within a 15-20 minute drive, I was there all the time and spent money pretty much every time I was there.
Now it is at my home or a close friend's house. If that is the case, why shouldn't I be looking for the lowest possible price I can get?
If there is no longer a discount to buying online, I can see my entire groups enthusiasm dwindle for PP stuff.
Wehrkind wrote: It strikes me as a bit odd that people are arguing over who has more/less infrastructure etc., as though it is a competition over who is really "the little guy" or some other victim. It is really a question of who serves the customer needs better.
It seems that for the most part cheap online stores and brick and mortar stores that offer good service serve the customers better, based on where customers spend their money. Stores that don't offer much in the way of resources, good customer service and/or good stock don't do well, regardless of being brick and mortar or not. Stores that manage to offer things people want and are willing to pay for do better.
The nice thing about this whole debate though is that nothing we say is really going to matter; people are going to spend where and how they want, and if PP or GW decides to limit themselves to higher price outlets, well we will see how that works out for them. I personally am disappointed to see PP shoot themselves in the foot like this because I really like their game systems, but their choice is their choice.
To me that's the bigger thing. The policy is only marginally important. GW has had a similar policy for more than a decade now IIRC and I know more than a few places to buy their goods the way I did prior to those policies being in place. It's just really about the tone and perceived lack of tact on their part.
EDIT: As was pointed out above.. if the MSRP were more reasonable on many of their products, online retailers wouldn't have to heavily discount to get people to buy.
I'm 1.5 hours from the nearest store. So unless it's a big event ro some tourney, I play at home or in other players homes.
Yep, that's me too. The closest store to me is about an hour away. After a 60+ hour week and a commute, that much driving time isn't in the cards. It doesn't matter that they have days assigned for each of they systems I like playing, I can't get there in a reasonable amount of time.
When I had a FLGS within a 15-20 minute drive, I was there all the time and spent money pretty much every time I was there.
Now it is at my home or a close friend's house. If that is the case, why shouldn't I be looking for the lowest possible price I can get?
If there is no longer a discount to buying online, I can see my entire groups enthusiasm dwindle for PP stuff.
I'm in the same boat- I've got 3 FLGS each an hour away. I was under the impression that game stores were more vital to the community in Europe because of how much closer they would be to a store, and how much smaller housing is generally. My group has always just made our own tables and terrain, and game at one of our houses since High School.
GW is even more reasonable then privateer press, lol.
With GW you can still buy products 25-30% off msrp however online companies can't list prices for GW products online.
Privateer press is going to flat out ban certain retailers who do heavy discounts which they don't define and can be anywhere from the 30-10% discounts you currently find online.
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
Well not all American FLGS operate in quite that manner. Sigvatr is correct, a store needs to provide an environment that encourages people to stop in and shop. Unfortunately a lot of game shops don't do that, or they don't do it for the random customers that come in, catering instead to the tastes of regulars/friends who may not have the store's financial interests at heart.
For example, the FLGS near me has a very strong Warmahordes crowd and hosts weekly Warmahordes nights (Thursdays) and schedules tournaments frequently. The store is large enough and established enough to have a pretty strong player base which honestly does a lot of the "work" for the FLGS in terms of helping new players getting started and getting word out about events. Of course the store provides a large gaming area with multiple tables and bins full of terrain which allow people to create a number of themed gaming surfaces which keeps people coming back. The staff are generally helpful and friendly as well, and their selection of stock is impressive. They suck at special orders, but that is what the internet is for.
I used to attend Warmachine tournaments at a different game shop that was the opposite in terms of player access and atmosphere. Very small location, limited table space, and the environment was not friendly (the owner's kids would use the gaming area as their own playpen which was cluttered with children's toys and the kids themselves tended to be handsy with players' models). Overall it made for a less enjoyable environment to play and of course shop at.
Supporting a store like my current FLGS is a no brainer because they provide a space that I actually want to go to. The shop with the kids toys and grabby toddlers not so much.
However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri.
I... would't be so sure about that, actually.
edit-quote problems
correct my brother in law is a retail property manager in NYC. As in he leases retail space. He has store fronts that pay $25,000 per sq ft a month.
There is no warehouse in rural Missouri that costs anywhere near that price. And we are not even including the state, federal and local taxes that are all higher as well. Nor the increased utility cost in city areas.
Smellingsalts wrote: I know I am asking for it, replying to this post with so many obviously favoring discounting, but I own a brick and mortar store and I don't think you are seeing the big picture. I live on a 10% margin when I sell at MSRP, that means after I am done paying my employees, paying lights and phones, paying rent, I make 1 dollar out of every 10. When I discount below 10% I am losing money. No business can function for long doing that. Now say I manage to cut expenditures here and there (by laying off employees, cutting back on hours, etc), I can make a little more, but not double! Now many of the online discounters are discounting 15%, 20%, or more. There is no way a brick and mortar can compete. Most gamers met other gamers and built their community in and around brick and mortar. If they go (and if this trend continues, at least in terms of miniatures, they will go) where will you play? How will you grow the community with no common frame of reference (flgs)? Talk to any game store owner. 99% of them are not sitting on vast amounts of treasure! Most of them are barely making it. Half of my store is devoted to in-store play. I am a strong believer in community. But just last month I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year. I am in the process of reducing the number of PP miniatures I carry, and if I am doing it, other lfgs are as well. If that trend continues, it will effect PP and cause them to cut staff/hours/production, and if it gets bad enough they will shut down. It will take years for that to happen, but while it is happening it will effect your gaming experience. Fewer miniature releases, no more tournaments (they won't be able to give tournament support (prizes), and the biggest, lfgs will shift to selling product that is not heavily discounted. I know of 1 store in town that has dropped most of it's miniature lines and switched to selling mainly board games due to online discounters. You can't play Warmachine in their store because their tables are reserved for the games they sell. I am thinking about changing access to my tables based on a club instead of just free entry. That way, if a customer buys all of their stuff online, then they won't be using my tables (and I won't be losing sales when they get mad and leave). I know some champion of the free market is going to get on here and talk about how if I can't compete I should get out, and most of them haven't really read Adam Smith and his "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations (1776)" The place where we get our concept of the" free market" and the "invisible hand". Contrary to popular belief, he was not against regulation, he thought it should be just and limited. I think PP is being just and limited. The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit. Right now, online discounters have no idea how much they can cut before being added to the "blacklist" and I think it would be fair if they clarified that. If you haven't talked to the owner of your lfgs, I suggest you do, to get more of a perspective on the subject. And please understand, I am not against online sales or discounts. But discounting should be reasonable and targeted (like a sale) not deep and across the board 24/7.
How are you paying such high costs?! I have a friend who had a game store, and I used to work in one. I've also had opportunity to RECENTLY (less than a year) go to distributor open days. The standard rate that stores pay to get stock is around 60%. Some, like buying directly from certain companies (PM me if you're a store owner and want to know a couple options), only charge 30% or 35% of retail. If you're paying 90% of cost instead of around 60%, I have no idea how you're still in business-you're screwing yourself over. Again, I've BEEN to these open days. I know firsthand how it works. You're getting screwed. BTW, if memory serves, PP only charges stores either 50% or 55%. I don't remember which. Local game stores should EASILY be able to offer some form of discount on their material. Talk to Privateer directly. Tell your distributor you'll start ordering elsewhere. They're doing you a serious disservice.
Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.
I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.
Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.
This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.
Because if people stop being dramatic there would never be problems lol. But since in the contract to sell pp stuff you need a brick and mortar shut down all web ones for breaking contracts and sue them I say.
However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri.
I... would't be so sure about that, actually.
edit-quote problems
correct my brother in law is a retail property manager in NYC. As in he leases retail space. He has store fronts that pay $25,000 per sq ft a month.
There is no warehouse in rural Missouri that costs anywhere near that price. And we are not even including the state, federal and local taxes that are all higher as well. Nor the increased utility cost in city areas.
Miniatures Market, when I visited them, were just a couple miles outside downtown St. Louis, not in BFE country.
There were also dozens of employees in the warehouse picking and packing orders. Not to mention the dozen or more people in the office areas.
The costs of space, utilities, and employees are not unique to the FLGS. A place that spends less on these items than a massive place like that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
Either that, or they keep running Magic tournaments.
Smelling salts mentions that "I had to go through my PP miniatures and clearance sale many of them because they have not sold (turned) in over a year." Well, my view of the bigger picture is that boardgames and miniature games, from the FLGS point of view, don't bring in the money that Magic packs do. But, contrary to internet prophets, that doesn't mean miniatures wargaming will *completely* go away, any more than miniatures wargaming completely went away when Magic was responsible for the majority of a FLGS's sales for the last ten or twenty years or so. An individual *publisher* (like PP) may go out of business. But KS projects certainly show companies (well, Mantic) eager to go after the miniatures wargaming audience, and even GW has seemed to change their policy. Somebody still thinks there's a market out there for miniatures wargaming...
Steve steveson wrote: This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.
See, this assertion keeps getting made, but it's just alien to the experience of a lot of us. I buy more books now than I ever have before, as a direct result of Amazon - not just because they discount, but because I can find literally almost every book ever printed and choose between a reasonably-priced new copy(because lets be honest, the only people who thought book prices were OK pre-Amazon were people who had too much money to care and book publishers), an ebook copy, or a secondhand copy. I don't have to traipse into town in the rain and wander around multiple expensive book stores, then trek across to the other side of town to wander around the multiple inconveniently-located secondhand shops, on the way finding that half the books I wanted aren't in stock anywhere and endure some clueless twit trying to hard-sell me a substitute that is at best tangentially related to what I actually wanted.
The idea that online sales are somehow inferior to offline sales is farcical - the internet has sparked huge growth in multiple industries, even "interactive" ones, the problem traditional retail & publishing companies have with online sales isn't that they're somehow inferior at growing the industry, it's that traditional retail and publishing companies refused to move with the times and so they missed the boat and now don't get what they regard as their rightful share of the profits.
Well, tough boobies. If you want to make your B&M business work, find ways to add value, and if you can't grow your business and community through online sales, you need to stop pretending it's 1995 and update your marketing and business models. People can piss & moan about "entitlement" all they like, reality is what it is and the internet is going nowhere; adapt or die.
NAVARRO wrote: Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.
I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.
Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.
This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.
While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores. Plus, I don't see how it's a hint of a company not doing well - this doesn't make them any extra money. They don't have their own storefront they're trying to funnel people through, they don't sell directly, so they're making the same money on any purchases.
However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri.
I... would't be so sure about that, actually.
edit-quote problems
correct my brother in law is a retail property manager in NYC. As in he leases retail space. He has store fronts that pay $25,000 per sq ft a month.
There is no warehouse in rural Missouri that costs anywhere near that price. And we are not even including the state, federal and local taxes that are all higher as well. Nor the increased utility cost in city areas.
Miniatures Market, when I visited them, were just a couple miles outside downtown St. Louis, not in BFE country.
They're in a light industrial park in an out of the way blue collar residential neighborhood. Rent's pretty darn low. Not to mention the money they save on hours, given that they're not actually open outside of the usual 9-5. I wouldn't really call it much of a store front either, as it's pretty much entirely dents and dings, with no actual play space.
It's really crappy how bricks and mortar stores are being undercut by online retailers. A store should be a place to nurture a hobby, a place to socialise and play. They can't keep doing this without support from companies, so well done PP.
NAVARRO wrote: Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.
I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.
Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.
This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.
While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores. Plus, I don't see how it's a hint of a company not doing well - this doesn't make them any extra money. They don't have their own storefront they're trying to funnel people through, they don't sell directly, so they're making the same money on any purchases.
If you are part, directly or indirectly, of a business model that is described as parasitic you are by default a parasite.
Its a clear sign its not doing well for an industry this size and a company this small if they need such desperate measures... BTW did not PP used KS?
gungo wrote: GW is even more reasonable then privateer press, lol.
With GW you can still buy products 25-30% off msrp however online companies can't list prices for GW products online.
Privateer press is going to flat out ban certain retailers who do heavy discounts which they don't define and can be anywhere from the 30-10% discounts you currently find online.
No. That is not what is happening at all.
Stores which are online ONLY and lack a b&m location are put on a "low priority" list for stock reorders over locations with a b&m location. Obviously PP wants rid of them but can't just straight up dump them for one reason or another. Said retailers be they b&m or online or whatever can discount however much the feth they want if they can still turn a profit. Nothing in this prohibits them doing that. It is just currently far easier for online only ones to do it as the (theoretically) have far fewer overheads than a b&m location.
NAVARRO wrote: Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.
I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.
Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.
This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.
While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores.
That kind of semantic wrangling isn't going to work - if you brand the online retailers as parasites, you are also by implication judging the customers who keep them in business. Which is why using language like "parasitical free loaders" is so utterly fething daft.
OgreChubbs wrote: Because if people stop being dramatic there would never be problems lol. But since in the contract to sell pp stuff you need a brick and mortar shut down all web ones for breaking contracts and sue them I say.
Eh..huh? It's not in the contract...you can't make a contract when one side can't fulfill it. You can't make a BnM contract with an online retailer...it's about sending goods to a store, disallowing someone to sell stuff is not possible (e.g. they can't stop you from selling it on ebay or other similar sites).
It's really crappy how bricks and mortar stores are being undercut by online retailers. A store should be a place to nurture a hobby, a place to socialise and play. They can't keep doing this without support from companies, so well done PP.
Wrong approach. If players feel that BnM stores aren't necessary, then they aren't doing their job and should be shut down. The business needs the customers, not the other way around. And really, it's all about the profit. If PP should get in financial trouble after this outburst, expect them to pull of a 180° asap.
Steve steveson wrote: The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales.
This here is one of the main cruxes with retail sales vs online sales. The traditional method for a store owner is to buy product from a distributor and sell it. They sell it for a value that is marked up to make a profit. The main issue is the store has to put that money up front and buy those products to stock. If those products don't sell, they are stuck with them. This is why most stores buy a lower amount of product.
Online stores essentially do the same thing but they count on volume. Instead of pick and choosing 5-8 best sellers, they pick up almost the entire line. Now that provides a convenience to some customers who want something but can't find it at their LGS. Since they are buying something might as well buy those last couple things they could have gotten at the LGS. Since they have low overhead, when something doesn't sell they just have to throw a fire sale and they can still make a bit of money or at the very least break even on those items.
What game companies need to do is re-evaluate how they sell to local game stores vs say an online retailers. For example one of the game companies that I associate with has a deal with the distributor. LGS signs up and they do go on a list. They have to buy a set amount of product, they arm you with the tools to sell that product. After Y times past, whatever isn't sold is 'exchanged' with the distributor for new stock. Then that game company will buy back that product from the distributor at the same cost (so no one loses money) or simply gets redistributed at other sources. That is the rough explanation.
As an example: There was a LGS that bought 50 board games of Lanterns and sold them all. Another one bought the same amount but only sold 25. They exchanged the dollar amount they paid for the 25 boxes for 40 boxes of Gravewell. The left 25 ended up getting distributed to another LGS which sold out of them.
Game Companies, manufacturers, distributors and local game stores are going to have to change how they approach retail store locations. There are different ways to do it, the above was one example. They however can't expect the same methods to work. If a company really wants to help a LGS, then provide a benefit to them that helps alleviate the the fear of financial risk and burden a LGS takes, while allowing them to provide more variety to their customers.
- Time-exclusive offers, e.g. new items are available 1-2 weeks earlier at BnM than online retailers
- Co-organize tournaments with cash / item prizes for the retailer
- Offer a reward system with BnM stores and the miniatures company; i.e. when you buy stuff at the BnM which is on the company's list you get a stamp / points, get enough, send it to PP and get free stuff
- Co-host global tournaments like Storm of Chaos with BnM stores organizing events and let players and their matches change the lore etc.
I could go on. There is so much stuff you can do to *positively* influence customers to go check out their BnM instead of just buying online. The problem is that this requires you to actually get your buttocks up and put work and effort into it. PP has made clear that they are not interested in putting effort into their work (and let's not start with the horrible models) and chose to actively punish and openly insult a large part of their customers.
Sorry for some people, but I do hope that PP gets a severe financial cut and in trouble, forcing them to re-think their ways.
Sigvatr wrote: There is so much stuff you can do to *positively* influence customers to go check out their BnM instead of just buying online.
Doing special events and specific things at a LGS are great and all. It however doesn't help them provide a large selection of choices in terms of products as they tend to keep a small amount on hand.
I try to support my LGS when I can. Usually newer items sold there vs online is within a $5-10 difference that I'm fine eating. I will say the best way I support the LGS currently is alcohol ^_^ since they have a bar now. However there are many times I go to buy something and they don't have it so I buy online. I could buy from the LGS and wait for it to come in, but compared to buying from online, I'd be waiting 1-2 weeks sometimes for what I can get in 2-4 days.
If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.
Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?
r_squared wrote: If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.
Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?
Gaming clubs are not a big a thing in the US as over here. It's all about the FLGS.
It does seem this policy is geared rather heavily towards the US, as I'm struggling of think of a prominent online store located in the UK that doesn't have a b&m location attached to it.
r_squared wrote: If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.
Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?
Gaming clubs are not a big a thing in the US as over here. It's all about the FLGS.
It does seem this policy is geared rather heavily towards the US, as I'm struggling of think of a prominent online store located in the UK that doesn't have a b&m location attached to it.
Yeah I can't think of any over here. Plus the discounts aren't that deep over here, tends to be about 10-15%.
gungo wrote: GW is even more reasonable then privateer press, lol.
With GW you can still buy products 25-30% off msrp however online companies can't list prices for GW products online.
Privateer press is going to flat out ban certain retailers who do heavy discounts which they don't define and can be anywhere from the 30-10% discounts you currently find online.
No. That is not what is happening at all.
Stores which are online ONLY and lack a b&m location are put on a "low priority" list for stock reorders over locations with a b&m location. Obviously PP wants rid of them but can't just straight up dump them for one reason or another. Said retailers be they b&m or online or whatever can discount however much the feth they want if they can still turn a profit. Nothing in this prohibits them doing that. It is just currently far easier for online only ones to do it as the (theoretically) have far fewer overheads than a b&m location.
Not necessarily approving of PP's move (though I can see their point), but there seem to be some people here just jumping in to grind an axe, apparently often based on being annoyed by a single over-zealous WMH player.
Companies like Asmodee and Privateer Press would like to force consumers to subsidize their corporate marketing strategies. I refuse to pay for their reliance on an outdated brick'n'mortar business model. I have zero interest in paying for LGS employees to introduce other people to games. Let those who benefit from the LGS pay the tax to support the LGS.
My personal thoughts on Local Game shops, they need to change the model. Id like to see a membership fee system to access to space/tool/terrain/hobby stuff in an environment that was kept up, clean, and pleasant.
Honestly I dont see how or why a game shop would want to carry any form on miniature model for any game. You order 5 and sell 2, you order 2 sell out and tell me you can order it for me, well so can I, cheaper and faster... It feels like a lose lose situation for a store.
With a membership fee a store knows where its at each month, rather than ride the ebb and flow of release cycles and hope its a good one.
Manchu wrote: Companies like Asmodee and Privateer Press would like to force consumers to subsidize their corporate marketing strategies. I refuse to pay for their reliance on an outdated brick'n'mortar business model. I have zero interest in paying for LGS employees to introduce other people to games. Let those who benefit from the LGS pay the tax to support the LGS.
just drink the juice damnit.....
On the fee topic tho, it is dangerious. If you gain access by paying you need to make sure everyone gets to play. If everyone shows up on friday and only 4 people out of 20 get to play you can fave issues where they where denied access to play and blah da blah.
Chopxsticks wrote: you order 2 sell out and tell me you can order it for me, well so can I, cheaper and faster...
Sums up most stores I've been to. Sweaty fat guy behind a desk watching youtube with nothing on the shelves except dust and a moldy slice of pizza tells me he can order it for me and it will be there in a month.
Thanks chief, I can order it too, for less money, faster delivery and have it brought to my doorstep. I'll make do just fine without all the "services" you provide that I apparently should feel bad about not supporting.
I don't care what arrangement the publishers and LGS come to -- so long as I am not charged something for nothing. I don't rely on LGS staff to educate me about products. I don't (and from experience cannot) rely on the LGS to create a sustainable and enjoyable community of gamers. I don't rely on a LGS to host games that I play. I am not going to pay more for products on the basis of publishers preferring a face-to-face POS.
I don't care what arrangement the publishers and LGS come to -- so long as I am not charged something for nothing. I don't rely on LGS staff to educate me about products. I don't (and from experience cannot) rely on the LGS to create a sustainable and enjoyable community of gamers. I don't rely on a LGS to host games that I play. I am not going to pay more for products on the basis of publishers preferring a face-to-face POS.
well you dont have a chooce it will happen everywhere. Gw, xwing now PP. buisness cut prices to help brick and mortar make money and sell there stuff. The will just cut the stores if that doesnt work raise the prices....
Yodhrin wrote: See, this assertion keeps getting made, but it's just alien to the experience of a lot of us. I buy more books now than I ever have before, as a direct result of Amazon
I agree, but Steve's comparison of online wargame stores to online books stores is apples and oranges. The thing is, Amazon and other online book retailers are killing B&M book stores. While some of us may morn the lost for purely nostalgic reasons it has not negatively impacted the publishing industry. I, like you, buy more books per year than I ever did from B&M book stores exactly because its cheaper and easier, and because no B&M store can match the selection of the online stores.
Wargaming is different, though. I don't need to connect with other readers to enjoy my books. I don't need someone to provide a place for me to read my books. In my experience, however, a healthy wargaming community requires a B&M store, with gaming space, to thrive (in the US at least. I understand that in the UK gaming clubs with access to public space to meet are much more common). We need that place to meet other gamers, to socialize and to game. I know some people do all their gaming at home with a small circle of friends and I certainly don't begrudge them buying 100% online. But its gaming groups that are out in public that grow the fan base. Most B&M stores are operating in thin margins, tying up money in expensive stock, and paying for square footage that isn't directly dedicated to sales. I know lots of people who would come and game at their FLGS yet they bought most or all of their gaming merchandise online. That's a good way to run a B&M store out of business, which will often result in the local gaming community collapsing.
Myself, I do all I can to support my FLGS. I buy all my hobby supplies (paint, brushes, etc.) from them. If I want something for a game they stock, I buy from them. I do sometimes buy online, but its generally only stuff the FLGS can't get. Rare or OOP stuff, or items from garage publishers that just doesn't get into the retail pipeline.
It's a market; there is always a choice. First, people can choose not to buy any or as much of their products. Second, online retailers will adapt. These companies are making the mistake of treating their customer base as a monolith (or trying to turn it into one) when there are at least two groups: on the one hand, more casual types who have been buying from the LGS and other expensive channels this whole time and on the other hand gamers who buy a lot of stuff and a wide variety of stuff thanks to online retailer discounts. Maybe that second group does not matter to Asmodee or PP*; that is part of the message they are sending, whether they would admit it or not. But I can tell you as someone who falls into the second category, by insisting that I pay for the failing brick'n'mortar business model these companies are constructing a wall between me and their products. And that wall is just going to redirect my disposable income dollars -- and some of the dollars these companies are losing as a result will certainly end up with folks who find a way to skirt these restrictions. Making "criminals" and "refugees" out of your customers is a dumb strategy.
These efforts end up as "buy the way we want you to" taxes, plain and simple.
*But it has to be a pretty substantial part of their customer base because they claim the freeriders are serving a large enough portion to "destabilize" and "distort" the whole market. ::eyeroll::
I agree, but Steve's comparison of online wargame stores to online books stores is apples and oranges. The thing is, Amazon and other online book retailers are killing B&M book stores. While some of us may morn the lost for purely nostalgic reasons it has not negatively impacted the publishing industry.
Funnily enough, book sales have more or less levelled off of late. Locally to us in the UK, you used to have book chains, Ottakars, Books Etc, Waterstones, Borders, Blackwells, and Foyles. Borders bough out Books Etc and went bankrupt, Waterstone's bought out Ottakars.
That left us with Waterstone's as the main High street chain bookstore, and the occasional Blackwells and Foyles dotted around the country. Waterstones have reported a minimal increase in profit and turnover of late, and book sales from their branches are on the up. Generally speaking, I don't think the bookstore industry is going to contract any further, it seems to have more or less found it's natural level. The book market became too small thanks to internet sales to support four large chains and various smaller ones, but remains big enough to hold up a single large chain and a number of smaller ones.
It may well be the case that the High Street can no longer support the average FLGS, and if so, there is nothing PP can do about it.
Maybe the stupidest part of policies like this is that they don't even work. GW has a much more draconian policy and I can still buy Deathwatch Overkill for 20% off MSRP from eBay stores. These kinds of policies just antagonize people and don't actually stop the discount stores from existing.
After speaking to several local FLGS owners, I can tell you exactly why this happened.
PP has always supported the FLGS. They only sell their tournament and league kits to stores. But those same stores are losing a lot of sales to these steeply discounted online only/mostly online retailers. Those store owners have been kvetching to PP for years about how cannibalized their sales are getting.
I don't know of a single FLGS I've been to that can match the 60% sale levels Miniature Market has been doing lately. PP had to respond, as accounts are being closed by retailers across the country.
PP isn't cutting off the online only retailers entirely, they're just evening the playing field. If you have no FLGS, you'll still be able to order online. You're just likely to only get the 10-20% discount FLGS players get, not the 60% you're used to. People act like they are shutting down retailers and saying 'B&M Only', which is patently false. They are just helping make sure their customers (stores, not players) have a fair shake at your dollar. Opinions about the products being overpriced etc etc are subjective and don't warrant response.
This is pretty much industry standard for sporting equipment, video games, and niche markets (ANS Gear, a paintball retailer, just got slapped on the hand for dipping below MSRP). This happens across all markets to prevent the death of the small retailer. The overall language may have been aggressive, but the idea isn't new or evil.
60% discount? You are talking about overstock clearances, not what sites like Miniature Market offer every day of the year. I don't even know what you could possibly be referring to in terms of the video game industry and preventing the death of the small retailer ...
Manchu wrote: 60% discount? You are talking about overstock clearances, not what sites like Miniature Market offer every day of the year. I don't even know what you could possibly be referring to in terms of the video game industry and preventing the death of the small retailer ...
Video games were more an example of specific pricing with limited discount % across most retailers, though yes, they don't really protect the small retailer. Poor example on my behalf.
And those overstock clearances have become a LOT more common. It used to be a black friday thing, now it's every three months or so I have a new email about a gigantic sale, so they aren't exactly rare.
Yeah, 60% is not standard discount anywhere. Miniature Market's higher discounts are only on deal-of-the-day time-limited sales or on older stuff they're clearancing out. They're closer to 25% on the bulk of PP stuff.
Video games are really not a good example, since Amazon Prime now gives 20% off on newly released games.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, 60% is not standard discount anywhere. Miniature Market's higher discounts are only on deal-of-the-day time-limited sales or on older stuff they're clearancing out. They're closer to 25% on the bulk of PP stuff.
Video games are really not a good example, since Amazon Prime now gives 20% off on newly released games.
Except the Magazine i haven't bought any PP mini's in Years, they are just as expensive as GW and the plastic stuff quality is not that great, I bet the next attack will be on the Chinese re-casters as people have difficulty getting the official stuff, some of them will drop the game and others will try to get it from other channels IMHO.
MM just had a massive overstock sale. I was snapping up Infinity for 50% off.
It's over.
Go home.
Yes, I clearly stated that 60% is normal. All the time.
What I said was, the 60% people are used to. I know for a long time when I was in-between play groups I only purchased during these massive sales Miniature Market was doing. So that's what I became used to. This isn't some abstract comment. If they lay off the overstock clearance, they're likely to see no delay in their product receiving times like PP has warned, as I don't find their normal discount that out of sync with most retailers.
From DGIs facebook post, it seems 10% will be the norm they're enforcing. What happens then if 10% fails to help the B&M stores? Will PP decide to try and enforce having no discounts at all?
Sining wrote: From DGIs facebook post, it seems 10% will be the norm they're enforcing. What happens then if 10% fails to help the B&M stores? Will PP decide to try and enforce having no discounts at all?
Unlikely, but it's possible. Then again we can't light torches for something that hasn't happened yet.
10% is what I see from most FLGS, though I've been to a few that are lower.
Well that hyperbolic claim does bring up another, more grounded issue - as publishers insist on discount caps (and equivalent policies), I can see retailers becoming even more adverse to stocking anything but (a) small quantities and (b) only the most popular/anticipated items. That will work out fine for larger companies that already control a large share of the market and can afford popular licenses/own established IPs. But it will also make it that much harder for start ups, which is a handy way to fend off future competitors. This will also end up making the LGS more dependent on the big name publishers and therefore the LGS less likely to invest time and money stocking and marketing games like DropZone Commander or SAGA or Bolt Action, etc etc etc.
Manchu wrote: Well that hyperbolic claim does bring up another, more grounded issue - as publishers insist on discount caps (and equivalent policies), I can see retailers becoming even more adverse to stocking anything but (a) small quantities and (b) only the most popular/anticipated items. That will work out fine for larger companies that already control a large share of the market and can afford popular licenses or control established IPs. But it will also make it that much harder for start ups, which is a handy way to fend off future competitors. This will also end up making the LGS more dependent on the big name publishers and therefore the LGS less likely to invest time and money stocking and marketing games like DropZone Commander or SAGA or Bolt Action, etc etc etc.
Do you find LGSs more likely to go out of their way now to stock new and upcoming games now? Because kickstarter/direct sales/online discounts seem to already be pulling the drive out of B&M stores to stock them around here. Strong, already built player bases are the only consistent cause for a store picking up a new line. That's not all cases, but seems to be the trend.
My local tried to stock PP new releases as an entry point for them, and they sat and sat.
A lot less impulse buying from serious PP players, they know what works for their armies and don't touch anything else.
The LGS near me started carrying Bolt Action over the last year. They did well but only thanks to one of their customers who volunteered as a "Warlord Sarge" (like a PP Pressganger). This guy did all the leg work, from running the social media and organizing competitive and pick-up play plus demo events to selling the product and keeping the player base coherent and excited. The actual LGS staff did little to nothing and even occasionally talked the game down in front of players. Eventually, the Sarge moved on to other interests and that customer base pretty well evaporated.
The point of that story is that - again - I think brick'n'mortar is currently a failing/failed business model. The internet does everything the LGS traditionally did (and better) EXCEPT of course hosting the physical space required for tabletop gaming. And LGS entrepreneurs have so far not figured out an efficient and competitive way to monetize this, the last bit of value they can still add. By the way, it's not like this is an impossible task. But we don't exactly have the captains of industry running brick'n'mortar stores. A lot of store owners seems to think of it as an extension of their gaming hobby. Even those more inclined to pursuing profit have not innovated their way out of flagging against online retailers. The LGS owners need to figure out a way to compete - not demand that publishers create policies to force consumers who do not even patronize a LGS to subsidize them. If Christian Peterson, Matt Wilson, or their peers had thought of how to run highly profitable gamestores, we wouldn't be talking about discount caps - we'd be talking about a national Asmodee/FFG retail chain elbowing out the LGS as surely as the online retailers.
gunslingerpro wrote: After speaking to several local FLGS owners, I can tell you exactly why this happened.
PP has always supported the FLGS. They only sell their tournament and league kits to stores. But those same stores are losing a lot of sales to these steeply discounted online only/mostly online retailers. Those store owners have been kvetching to PP for years about how cannibalized their sales are getting.
I don't know of a single FLGS I've been to that can match the 60% sale levels Miniature Market has been doing lately. PP had to respond, as accounts are being closed by retailers across the country.
PP isn't cutting off the online only retailers entirely, they're just evening the playing field. If you have no FLGS, you'll still be able to order online. You're just likely to only get the 10-20% discount FLGS players get, not the 60% you're used to. People act like they are shutting down retailers and saying 'B&M Only', which is patently false. They are just helping make sure their customers (stores, not players) have a fair shake at your dollar. Opinions about the products being overpriced etc etc are subjective and don't warrant response.
This is pretty much industry standard for sporting equipment, video games, and niche markets (ANS Gear, a paintball retailer, just got slapped on the hand for dipping below MSRP). This happens across all markets to prevent the death of the small retailer. The overall language may have been aggressive, but the idea isn't new or evil.
It's not new and it's not evil, but that doesn't make it a good idea as far as consumers are concerned and nor does it mean folk should just lie down and take it without kicking up a fuss.
My "dollar" is mine, to spend where I bloody well please, and like Manchu I'm completely uninterested in paying what amounts to a tax on my purchases to support a business model that I don't use and which doesn't benefit me in any way.
Not being new and/or evil also doesn't mean it will be effective - as far as I can see the primary results of GW's increasingly inept war on the internet have been a big surge in startups offering new miniature games and an explosion in illegal rescasting: if PP decide to throw their hat into that same ring, trying to prop up a failed business model from the last century by demanding subsidy from non-FLGS-using gamers, I'm sure they'll be able to look forward to the same outcome, only this time it will occur more rapidly(since the practice is already fairly common knowledge today relative to a few years ago when GW began dumping on its fans in earnest). That's not an endorsement, merely an acknowledgement of reality.
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
And many customers play along with the family/charity model, coming and taking up game space without ever buying anything at the store, using the store as a 3D catalog for their later online purchases, some even bragging about how they're getting their stuff much cheaper than the owner can sell it.
I think that part of the problem is too many game stores want to get by barely stocking anything and relying on what is essentially a charity by providing a place to play. In this day and age, and it has been true for many years now, you need to provide more then just a place to play and paying lip service to the game with little or no discount especially as prices rise. If you ask me, if a FLGS wants to compete with online prices they need to do more than just say I have gaming tables.
Having been around when GW first did their pricing restrictions, before the pants on head stupid blocking online stores from even listing the products, I feel this is a mistake that will bite privateer in the ass eventually. It has already caused a lot of bad PR, including references to GW itself, and I fear that they are walking down a dangerous path even if they don't go full on hostile like GW did so many years ago, the damage may already be done and already pissed people off
I entirely agree. The model is dysfunctional all the way around and publisher policies that keep it on life support are therefore absurd. I really suspect this is not ultimately about supporting the LGS so much as trying to stamp out the online retailer, at which point the publisher can get into the online retail business with little to no serious competition. It's called the GW playbook.
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
And many customers play along with the family/charity model, coming and taking up game space without ever buying anything at the store, using the store as a 3D catalog for their later online purchases, some even bragging about how they're getting their stuff much cheaper than the owner can sell it.
It's a full on comedy.
Boo hoo?
I'm sure at some stage someone will explain why a business model deserves to survive if it can't weather a small percentage of their customer base being inconsiderate gits(because that problem is totes unique to this sector ), or why folk in rural areas or who's FLGS is so rubbish they don't use it should be punished for the behaviour of said gits which has nothing to do with them, or why folk who don't even live in places that rely on the FLGS model to support their communities(since there's no indication anywhere this is a NA-only policy) should have to pay more.
Businesses like Wayland, Miniature Market, and CoolStuffInc (not to mention Amazon) have proven that online sales can be extremely profitable. Publishers like GW wanted in on that action. GW's first step was tighter controls on how retailers could sell their products. Step 2 was moving significant portions of their lines to direct only sales. They leveraged their control of the supply as a publisher/distributor to take over the markets retailers created and maintained for them. Asmodee and PP don't have as much leverage as GW did, these guys don't have the current wherewithal to move a company-branded shop in right next to a LGS -- but they don't have to, the LGS is generally no threat (although there are bound to be some exceptions). This especially applies to FFG, who already makes the LGS compete against national chains like Barnes & Noble. In any case, just like GW, the goal here is to get in on that sweet online retail action. Their biggest competitor in doing so: uh surprise surprise Wayland, Miniature Market, and CoolStuffInc -- the dastardly "freeriders" and "parasites." I hope none of you are buying this crap about "supporting poor old mom and pop."
I'll be honest part of me hopes this is some cruel April Fool's joke. But I think if it was it would be something more ridiculous like opening a chain of stores. So sadly this looks to be true, and that bodes ill because GW started doing the same thing for the same reasons years ago and it only got progressively worse and then where we are today with them. This brings back very bad memories
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
And many customers play along with the family/charity model, coming and taking up game space without ever buying anything at the store, using the store as a 3D catalog for their later online purchases, some even bragging about how they're getting their stuff much cheaper than the owner can sell it.
It's a full on comedy.
Maybe the owner should consider something to stop them? Like IDK a ban maybe?
Manchu wrote: Well that hyperbolic claim does bring up another, more grounded issue - as publishers insist on discount caps (and equivalent policies), I can see retailers becoming even more adverse to stocking anything but (a) small quantities and (b) only the most popular/anticipated items. That will work out fine for larger companies that already control a large share of the market and can afford popular licenses/own established IPs. But it will also make it that much harder for start ups, which is a handy way to fend off future competitors. This will also end up making the LGS more dependent on the big name publishers and therefore the LGS less likely to invest time and money stocking and marketing games like DropZone Commander or SAGA or Bolt Action, etc etc etc.
Oh, that's already happened. We've long ago past the point where even distributors could carry everything game stores wanted.
And funny how nobody mentions that the OLGS carries products you couldn't get unless you WAITED for the LGS special order....
Sigvatr wrote: It's interesting to read about the US situation. How is playing organized over there? In Germany, a lot of people play in clubs, either at a FLGS or, as in our case, in an own location. The FLGS, or the ones I can speak for, are very interested in keeping people and support local tournaments. They know that they cannot compete with online prices and thus, they try to bind people by other means. They host a lot of tournaments, people attend and people buy there. A lot of them do well, but at the same time, they really do a lot for their customers. Some don't do well despite being active and the main problem is that a medium-sized city cannot hold more than 1 or 2 stores.
tl;dr: FLGS need to make people /want/ to go there in order to make them /buy/ there.
Here FLGS tend to operate like a charity, infact, most small businesses do. citing stuff like "Buy so I can support my family" and "Help me keep the lights on" and so forth.
They yse guilt trips to keep ya, not real business practices.
And many customers play along with the family/charity model, coming and taking up game space without ever buying anything at the store, using the store as a 3D catalog for their later online purchases, some even bragging about how they're getting their stuff much cheaper than the owner can sell it.
It's a full on comedy.
Boo hoo?
I'm sure at some stage someone will explain why a business model deserves to survive if it can't weather a small percentage of their customer base being inconsiderate gits(because that problem is totes unique to this sector ), or why folk in rural areas or who's FLGS is so rubbish they don't use it should be punished for the behaviour of said gits which has nothing to do with them, or why folk who don't even live in places that rely on the FLGS model to support their communities(since there's no indication anywhere this is a NA-only policy) should have to pay more.
I'll wait.
Boo hoo? Having to pay MSRP is so unfair that it's punishment.
Perhaps someone can explain that. I too will wait.
Yes - we need to keep in mind that MSRP/RRP takes into account value-adds along the distribution and sales channel.
What online retailers did was to compete in the margin between wholesale and MSRP/RRP by lowering their costs without a significant loss in value added to the end user, you and me. Consumers naturally loved this!
Meanwhile publishers naturally hated it - because they benefited (NOT the customer) from the middle men value-adds (e.g., marketing) lost in this competition.
But this did make publishers question whether the distributors and retailers really were worthwhile partners - or if they should just go straight to the customer. GW, a British firm with its own retail history that grew up with British club culture and that distributed its own product, was naturally the first publisher to really act on skepticism of the LGS.
To sum it up, what publishers want to do is make MSRP the only price rather than the "suggested" or "recommended" price and to keep all of what the distributors and retailers used to make.
The lie these publishers are now telling is that wholesale was intended to be a "discount" to help out brick'n'mortar retailers.
Manchu wrote: The LGS near me started carrying Bolt Action over the last year. They did well but only thanks to one of their customers who volunteered as a "Warlord Sarge" (like a PP Pressganger). This guy did all the leg work, from running the social media and organizing competitive and pick-up play plus demo events to selling the product and keeping the player base coherent and excited. The actual LGS staff did little to nothing and even occasionally talked the game down in front of players. Eventually, the Sarge moved on to other interests and that customer base pretty well evaporated.
The point of that story is that - again - I think brick'n'mortar is currently a failing/failed business model. The internet does everything the LGS traditionally did (and better) EXCEPT of course hosting the physical space required for tabletop gaming. And LGS entrepreneurs have so far not figured out an efficient and competitive way to monetize this, the last bit of value they can still add. By the way, it's not like this is an impossible task. But we don't exactly have the captains of industry running brick'n'mortar stores. A lot of store owners seems to think of it as an extension of their gaming hobby. Even those more inclined to pursuing profit have not innovated their way out of flagging against online retailers. The LGS owners need to figure out a way to compete - not demand that publishers create policies to force consumers who do not even patronize a LGS to subsidize them. If Christian Peterson, Matt Wilson, or their peers had thought of how to run highly profitable gamestores, we wouldn't be talking about discount caps - we'd be talking about a national Asmodee/FFG retail chain elbowing out the LGS as surely as the online retailers.
Yep. Your post makes a good point about organized play -- it's not very organized. It's basically an advertising model that uses *unpaid volunteers*. Volunteers will work hard to promote product, but can *poof* suddenly disappear, taking all support with them. Meanwhile, if the organized play is organized by the store, they don't have any particular commitment to the manufacturer. It doesn't matter to them if it's a PP league or Magic Friday Night they're running. Volunteers are certainly invaluable to manufacturers, but they should still be seen as fans, not workers. Nor should manufacturers expect the FLGS to support *their* product if it's not profitable.
Still, I do think LGS can succeed. Game Kastle and Gator Games are in the San Francisco Bay Area (high rent) for over twenty years, with GK opening its third store, so they're doing something right. But I certainly know they're providing services (eg. helping parents and running organized play event for Magic and Pokemon) that LGS do not or cannot do. I think stores like these should be studied by game manufacturers, rather than policies handed down to them.
Personally, I would separate out Asmodee's policy into another thread. Unlike miniatures wargaming, boardgames need the FLGS even less so than miniatures wargames. BoardGameGeek long ago made the store employee (and word of mouth) unnecessary for product information. The OLGS sold stuff. Meetup groups and Yahoo groups allowed gamers to meet in locations besides the FLGS. These three replaced the functions of the FLGS, leaving organized play the only service the FLGS has not available elsewhere. More importantly, though, hobby boardgames are appearing in Big Box stores, while miniature wargames are not. I believe Asmodee's policy to lower OLGS discounts is really to follow terms set by Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble, and other Big Box stores who have their own webstores and do not want competition from the OLGS.
And after reading the above - I visited Amazon to see all these crazy WM deals he's talking about - and I don't see it ... I see some stuff around 35% off at best, but it tends to be older, unpopular stuff or things like the battleboxes that there is a glut of. Nothing that made me want to "pounce." And I'm prone to pouncing too - like I did a few weeks ago when Ruin was the MM deal of the day.
OT: Here's his blog about the Asmodee policy from December 2015. He jokingly mentions the idea of closing down his game store and opening a coffee shop -- but this may actually be a good idea, given that a boardgame cafe wouldn't have the stigma that game stores stereotypically have, and the rise in the last ten years of Eurogames, with its female audience. : http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2015/12/fixing-devalued-market-tradecraft.html
I generally side with Manchu. We're a unique hobby in the USA that doesn't pay for our play space. While PP and GW compete for the highest cost of toys, we all know of more expensive ones (not justifying their costs with this). Rather, when I get into stuff like guns, bowling, golf, etc. that is any type of hobby that requires a physical meets up space/play area, there's typically a fee associated with it. Realistically, Magic has this cost baked in because of the lower manufacturer costs, higher turnover/churn expected from that game. One type of Magic tournament specifically has a "buy this much product to play" right? (Sealed?) The same doesn't ring true with minis games; we're more the gun club than the modern gaming scene of CCGs, MOBAs, etc. that can churn players and product.
Here in the USA, we just don't go for the idea of pay to play in our hobby gaming, which I think it a bit nuts. I don't think any store should expect to float on the "goodwill" of their player bases, nor do I think players should be forced by guilt to buy somewhere. The play area and the purchase counter are really two separate services, but corporate policies like this one from PP are trying to say they are one in the same.
Hey, at least the used value on all my stuff will go up, likely.
TheKbob wrote: Here in the USA, we just don't go for the idea of pay to play in our hobby gaming, which I think it a bit nuts. I don't think any store should expect to float on the "goodwill" of their player bases, nor do I think players should be forced by guilt to buy somewhere. The play area and the purchase counter are really two separate services, but corporate policies like this one from PP are trying to say they are one in the same.
Well, we *do* have this business model outside of gaming, with bars, coffee shops, donut shops, etc. You buy the food, and the eating space is complimentary.
Of course, a more accurate model would be b&m bookstores, where you're browsing and even reading books in the store is free -- okay, that's a bad example because b&m bookstores are having the same problems as b&m game stores!
Barnes and Noble (and the FLBS) has a coffee shop attached to the bookstore, so can make some sort of money from people who park themselves at a table and don't buy books. The FLGS stocks soda and snacks so they can do likewise with the gamers in the gaming area.
I know with boardgames, boardgamers can simply meet at a coffee shop and play games, so wouldn't pay for play space. Do miniature wargamers? Does anyone know of a FLGS which successfully charges miniature wargamers and other hobby gamers a fee to play, league, tournament, or casual play? Certainly game conventions are an example of this, although they provide events and such not available at most game sores. Also, I hear some FLGS will give you store credit in return for fee to play. Maybe a membership that's free with purchase (or volunteer work as organized play) would generate revenue, and increase frequency of use of the gaming area, resulting in possible increased sales.
OT: Here's his blog about the Asmodee policy from December 2015. He jokingly mentions the idea of closing down his game store and opening a coffee shop -- but this may actually be a good idea, given that a boardgame cafe wouldn't have the stigma that game stores stereotypically have, and the rise in the last ten years of Eurogames, with its female audience. : http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2015/12/fixing-devalued-market-tradecraft.html
He is the owner of my flgs. iread alot of articles from him. He doesnt care about games, he cares about money. He is the charity store owner i mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, warmachine didnt fail because he couldnt sale, he didnt support the game as much
I say this with a bit of humor, but Manchu were you abducted by a brick and mortar owner as a child and tortured or something? Never have I seen such vehemence towards an industry, even GW. Where do you play? Only at home or an flgs? Most people don't play miniatures only at home. They need places to play so the eradication of the flgs would devastate the hobby. You can't go online and play in the online discounter's virtual game room. They rely on the flgs to sustain their customers. That is what is parasitic. Parasites don't usually kill the host, because it would result in their death as well. All that is happening is that the market is reacting to correct certain forces that are having a deleterious effect on business. Whether customers of online like it or not, manufacturers have decided that deep discounting is not good for the industry. GW has been cited as the harshest example, and yet they are not. Every week on this forum you can see Frontline gaming advertising the latest GW for 25% off. And that is perfectly allowed ( though not for much longer). I applaud Asmodee, Mayfair, GW, Salute,, and now PP for their decision to stand by the flgs. The decision has been made and we will only see more manufacturers doing this. At some point people who have been buying at deep discounts online will have to decide if they can live in this new paradigm. I would try to explain why all this has happened, but it seems most on this fourum don't care about the flgs or community, only cheap sales
Smellingsalts wrote: They need places to play so the eradication of the flgs would devastate the hobby
Gamers could easily just find somewhere else to play and form gaming social clubs, this is exactly how things work in the UK. Game stores simply offer convenience and a more visible presence.
Smellingsalts wrote: manufacturers have decided that deep discounting is not good for the industry
How very 'noble' of them.
I have been an active wargamer for decades and in that time I have only gamed in a single shop (which was an hours drive away but it was the only place at the time that played FoW so I made the trip occasionally) and it was effectively a gaming club with a store attached to it (set gaming times and a table fee). I roll nearly all my dice in Gaming Clubs and sometimes in people homes these days.
That store that I mentioned earlier had the same problem that every gaming shop that I have ever entered has, they rarely stock what I am looking for. A few years ago I was living in the South East of England (so very heavily populated) and I conducted a bit of an experiment. I set out to find the Bolt Action Grenadier box that had been out for a few months at the time at one of the shops within an hours drive; there were 4 shops, 2 in a big city and 2 in smaller towns. Not one of them had what I was looking for in stock. Considering the popularity of Bolt Action (even at the time), and the relative popularity of the specific item, that's quite damning.
I now buy all my toys either online or at Wargames Shows (my wife is already complaining about the projected cost of Salute..). I still go in shops if I encounter them but I rarely buy anything other than a pot of paint because they have nothing that I want.
One other thing about 'excessive', or 'parasitic' (lol) discounts is that their aggressive removal can actively drive people away for your products. When Battlefront had their little tantrum with Maelstrom games about exceeding their maximum 10% discount policy I basically gave up on FoW, there are other reasons as well but that certainly contributed. This was not due to the cost (about 20-40 pence on a single blister IIRC) but the company's attitude.
I am on the other side of the Atlantic but I can't imagine that the stock levels of US shops are magically better than they are here and I would imagine that it would be easier to find large areas suitable for gaming tables in the US than it is in the UK. 'F''L'GS in the US needs to move with the times because the times will not move with them.
If anything, maybe it's a good time for the US to start adopting / considering the EU/UK trend of gaming clubs. we, for example, got an own space rented to play in and members pay a monthly fee (not paying for the full rent, my wife and I cover most of it). While naturally, this isn't possible for everyone, it really is worth so much - player quality level rises, you can whatever you want, come when you want, play what you want etc. No FLGS necessary and still, a lot of us buy locally to support the store we often cooperate with.
Our bi-annual tournaments each have cash prizes (100,50,25€) , as well as the annual Grand Tournament (250, 125, 50€) and both get supported by the FLGS offering discounts for the first three places, the better you score, the higher the discount. He also "rents" out models to others, makes intro games etc., super-active business owner who invests a lot of work and effort into the hobby - and it pays off. Local GW is not pleased /at all/ and in our beginnings even tried to shut us down by trying to disallow us using GW miniatures - which is total bullpoo, of course, and that's what our lawyers told him too
This whole thing gets REALLY silly when you consider this argument: even with equal prices, the online shop still wins. Consumers across all industries have gotten really fond of the convenience of having the exact thing you want mailed to you without having to check store inventories or make additional driving trips.
TheWaspinator wrote: This whole thing gets REALLY silly when you consider this argument: even with equal prices, the online shop still wins. Consumers across all industries have gotten really fond of the convenience of having the exact thing you want mailed to you without having to check store inventories or make additional driving trips.
Indeed, trying to stifle discounting is just the nail in the B&M gaming industry's already lined and occupied coffin.
The game store I used to play at charged for the tables for wargaming. Seemed fair enough to me, I never minded paying a small fee to use the table.
That said, they also overcharged for board games (like, significantly more than the RRP - 90 euro for Descent!), so I didn't feel too much loyalty when it came to purchases.
Here in the UK, Independent bookstores and even chains like Waterstones, had tough times going up against Amazon.
So what happened? The bad stores went under.
The good stores? They adapted. They offered tea and cakes. Held creative writing classes. Got more meet the author events going. Stocked books that customers wanted etc etc
The good book stores adapted, thrived, offered a niche that Amazon could never offer.
And it's the same with FLGS. I've been in a few terrible FLGS in my time. They won't be missed.
But the good stores will survive, and I'm happy to support them when I encounter them.
My FLGS is trying new things all the time. Local crafts. Souvenirs. Sports memorabilia. Poker cards (poker was a big fad with the chavs a few years back). Subcontracting distribution for board game kickstarters. Whatever pays the bills.
Yeah, the managers who haven't had an original thought in the past 30 years are struggling, I bet. And wishing all this new stuff would just magically go away and they could have their margin back.
OT: Here's his blog about the Asmodee policy from December 2015. He jokingly mentions the idea of closing down his game store and opening a coffee shop -- but this may actually be a good idea, given that a boardgame cafe wouldn't have the stigma that game stores stereotypically have, and the rise in the last ten years of Eurogames, with its female audience. : http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/2015/12/fixing-devalued-market-tradecraft.html
He is the owner of my flgs. iread alot of articles from him. He doesnt care about games, he cares about money. He is the charity store owner i mentioned.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, warmachine didnt fail because he couldnt sale, he didnt support the game as much
Where to start. I don't love games or I didn't support Warmachine?
First, I run a business that happens to sell games. I also happen to love games. These two facts are only loosely related to each other.
Second, we've got three people on staff who go to Lock and Load each year. They are super excited about Warmachine. Unfortunately, our Press Ganger moved away and our events suffered. Privateer Press never sold great, but over the previous year, it sold terribly. Drumming up more support for more weekly events failed. The problem with Privateer Press is they do zero inventory control on their lines. No model has ever been discontinued to my knowledge. That means the line gets bigger, and bigger, and suddenly, after 12 years of selling Warmachine, you either reconcile with poor performance of the line or you drop it. There's an internal problem there, beyond sales.
Also, when we dropped Warmachine we sold all of it in store in six weeks. We sold $40,000 of product at 40% off ... in six weeks. The previous $40,000 of sold product took a year. There is demand there. There's just too much dumping online via Amazon, Ebay, etc. Also, it turned out local stores had dumped it ages ago and I was last man standing, last guy to get the memo.
Da Boss wrote: I also think the prices of PP stuff has something to do with the difficulty of selling it. It is overpriced for the quality and quantity you get.
Well, it was very easy for us to transition those inventory dollars to 40K. We've seen a 25% increase in sales in our miniatures department for the last two months since we did this. GW is getting the message. They've released organized play kits and they manage their line. Price is not a concern if you keep up the quality, manage your line, and position yourself properly in the marketplace.
Also, we're hoping to replace Warmachine with Guild Ball. Check that game out.
I'm a game store Gamer. I never knew game stores were so hated by some in the community. They have been a positive for me. If not for the comic shop I went to also carrying 40k I doubt I ever would have heard of this hobby. Much less started it. I've made many friends. People I wouldn't have otherwise met. I can say this because I know they would not have used social media to find players, simply played in small groups or quit all together. Hell, I wouldn't have my current job without connections I made at a game store.
Before the hyperbole escalates any further, keep in mind I actually said
Manchu wrote: the LGS is generally no threat (although there are bound to be some exceptions)
I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as a successful LGS in either practice or theory. The point is that the model overall is failing vis-a-vis online retail. This isn't about "not liking" the LGS. If the LGS model wasn't failing then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But saving the LGS is not even what this is really about; that is just a smokescreen for publishers to try to push online retailers out of the market. Publishers want to take over online retail. And they don't want to compete against a discount. Again, they want MSRP to be THE price, not the SUGGESTED price. Ultimately, this is a battle between publishers and online retailers. The LGS is already out of the fight.
Smellingsalts wrote: manufacturers have decided that deep discounting is not good for the industry
How very 'noble' of them.
He's actually right. Publishers have unilaterally declared that it is common knowledge that online retailers are destroying the market for tabletop games. The problem is, people somehow believe this malarkey contrary to clear evidence. In point of fact, the tabletop game market has consistently and significantly grown despite/thanks to (depending on your viewpoint) online retailers. Publishers are lying to us. It's really that simple.
Sigvatr wrote: If anything, maybe it's a good time for the US to start adopting / considering the EU/UK trend of gaming clubs.
This is my dream model but I doubt it will ever take in the US.
Manchu wrote: Before the hyperbole escalates any further, keep in mind I actually said
Manchu wrote: the LGS is generally no threat (although there are bound to be some exceptions)
I'm not arguing that there is no such thing as a successful LGS in either practice or theory. The point is that the model overall is failing vis-a-vis online retail. This isn't about "not liking" the LGS. If the LGS model wasn't failing then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But saving the LGS is not even what this is really about; that is just a smokescreen for publishers to try to push online retailers out of the market. Publishers want to take over online retail. And they don't want to compete against a discount. Again, they want MSRP to be THE price, not the SUGGESTED price. Ultimately, this is a battle between publishers and online retailers. The LGS is already out of the fight.
The number of game stores has increased dramatically since the recession, thanks to the drivers of the game trade: Magic the Gathering and Euro board games. Miniatures, on the other hand, are receding, along with role playing games. These games are losing viability in brick and mortar stores, mostly because of prices and time. People can't afford them and they don't have time for the hobby. Both miniatures and RPGs will join war games as a specialty market served primarily by online retailers. Brick and mortar stores will carry on.
Other than that, I've written my post explaining why the publishers see B&M as having intrinsic value. I've argued that the problem is not online stores so much as B&M stores dumping product. You're welcome to your conspiracy theory based on your delusions.
blackdiamond wrote: Miniatures, on the other hand, are receding, along with role playing games.
Irrelevant - one of the most prominent online retailers (CSI) has moved away from miniatures gaming completely. We are not only or even primarily talking about miniatures when it comes to publishers wanting to keep the margin between their costs and MSRP. This is a wider trend. As you yourself point out:
blackdiamond wrote: These games are losing viability in brick and mortar stores, mostly because of prices and time.
Price and time - obstacles inherent to the product, that have nothing to do with online retailers. So if price and time, rather than online retailers, are what undermines minaitures sales at the LGS then why are the publishers going after the online retailers? It's pretty clear that this has nothing to do with the LGS despite how publishers are trying to market their positions.
blackdiamond wrote: explaining why the publishers see B&M as having intrinsic value
I've described this, too. I've gone on to describe why publishers might also be skeptical of the LGS (lo and behold market growth doesn't require a physical sales outlet). Trust me, if Asmodee had a plan to run a profitable game store chain they would go for it. As things stand, they are happy to let the LGS owner absorb all that risk. I'll go on record right now that we will see more publishers move into online retail following up on discount capping.* Maintaining that the future of game sales is offline -- now that's delusional.
*Shipping cost being the only real issue (as we see from Amazon Prime).
Manchu wrote: The LGS near me started carrying Bolt Action over the last year. They did well but only thanks to one of their customers who volunteered as a "Warlord Sarge" (like a PP Pressganger). This guy did all the leg work, from running the social media and organizing competitive and pick-up play plus demo events to selling the product and keeping the player base coherent and excited. The actual LGS staff did little to nothing and even occasionally talked the game down in front of players. Eventually, the Sarge moved on to other interests and that customer base pretty well evaporated.
The point of that story is that - again - I think brick'n'mortar is currently a failing/failed business model. The internet does everything the LGS traditionally did (and better) EXCEPT of course hosting the physical space required for tabletop gaming. And LGS entrepreneurs have so far not figured out an efficient and competitive way to monetize this, the last bit of value they can still add. By the way, it's not like this is an impossible task. But we don't exactly have the captains of industry running brick'n'mortar stores. A lot of store owners seems to think of it as an extension of their gaming hobby. Even those more inclined to pursuing profit have not innovated their way out of flagging against online retailers. The LGS owners need to figure out a way to compete - not demand that publishers create policies to force consumers who do not even patronize a LGS to subsidize them. If Christian Peterson, Matt Wilson, or their peers had thought of how to run highly profitable gamestores, we wouldn't be talking about discount caps - we'd be talking about a national Asmodee/FFG retail chain elbowing out the LGS as surely as the online retailers.
I get where you're coming from, and there are many parallels in other, larger industries like technology (Best Buy) and books (B&N, Chapters). In many cases, online is simply much more efficient. There is a danger for consumers to this, however. In the short term, sure, we benefit from prices being lower online as compared to brick and mortar prices that we're used to. However, in the long term, as B&M's go out of business, the online price with the lower margin slowly becomes the only price, and then, the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen -- they'll just sell directly (or through an intermediate like Amazon) to the customer, and make a little bit more. Sounds good, right? Cut out the 50% in the middle, and all that. But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.
This is why that while I want to buy my product as cheaply as possible, I don't really have a problem with PP or GW discouraging a "race to the bottom" for prices, because in the long run (years and decades), I don't think it will be helpful for prices from a purely personal, selfish point of view.
I generally agree that B&M hobby/gaming shops are having a much harder time with miniature games than they used to. With comic books, too, which many of these stores sell. On the other hand, I wouldn't call them a failing or failed industry, principally because of collectible card games. These are just huge sellers, highly profitable, and work really well in a retail environment. Singles are better sold in a physical store, because condition matters, and shipping is an issue (or risk) if you want one card.
Also, they're very conducive to play in a store, whereas some miniature-based games are just a pain to transport (cough 40k cough), and the social experience is made even easier by extremely short games with no setup time.
Talys wrote: the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen
It is the responsibility of the middle-men to create that incentive. Rather than creating an incentive - i.e., innovating their business practices to be more desirable to the retail customer - the LGS is relying on the publisher to DISincentivize the retail customer from buying from online retailers. In other words, the publishers want to push the cost of keeping a non-competitive business model in play onto you and me.
Talys wrote: But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.
This is exactly what I have been outlining as the publishers' plan. A poster above called this a "conspiracy." Guess he has not heard of Games Workshop. But the point is, it's not the online retailer that is creating the problem, or the LGS - the problem is the publisher is leveraging its control of supply. No LGS or online retailer is ever going to keep GW from raising its prices, after all.
Crimson Devil wrote: I'm a game store Gamer. I never knew game stores were so hated by some in the community.
While I rarely, if ever game at stores anymore, I met almost all of my gaming friends through the game store many years ago, or through people I met at the game store.
The Warstore has just sent out an email saying they will only offer 20% off PP products through Monday thanks to this new policy.
So did they receive notice that they are on PP's black list? Seems like the discount cap ("wait wait there's no discount cap!") will be lower than 20% then.
Discount Games Incorperated (the Chain Attack guys) will be doing 10% discount from now on.
Privateer Press recently announced that they will be making policy changes to discourage the use of deep discounts. Privateer Press is implementing this policy to strengthen brick and mortar retailers as a community center. Play space and organized play events at brick and mortar stores are essential in attracting new customers and retaining existing customers.
Discount Games Inc. has put many hours into growing the Warmachine community. Our brick and mortar store, Gameopolis, regularly runs tournaments and leagues. Warmachine can have a high barrier of entry. We sponsor and help create Chain Attack, a weekly free podcast about Warmachine. We host tournament lists on our website that can be used as a tool for players to see what lists are experiencing success in the current competitive environment. Furthermore, Discount Games Inc. has always been committed to participating in fundraising efforts for the Warmachine community.
Discount Games Inc. will do our best to fully support Privateer Press in pursuing their new policy. That means that we will be implementing the following changes in our business practices:
-Regular discounts on Privateer Press items will be capped at 10%. We will begin updating the prices on our website immediately. Any customer seeking to place an order at our old prices should do so immediately.
-We may be able to offer seasonal bundles of army lists that will be temporarily sold at promotional discounts. We will announce more details on the bundles when they are ready to launch.
-We expect to be able to implement a customer loyalty program. While we are yet unsure on the details of this program, we are excited to launch a customer loyalty program soon.
-We will be lowering the free shipping threshold on domestic orders.
-We will cover more of the expense for shipping to international customers.
Discount Games Inc. has tried to exemplify excellence in customer service, and customers can continue to expect the same high standards. It is our hope that customers will continue to see our service as our most valuable competitive advantage.
Warmachine is still an engaging game that is fun to play. Privateer Press and Discount Games Inc. are trying to create a culture that encourages the long term health and viability of this great game and to build our community. Discount Games Inc. hopes that customers will support companies that share these values.
These market changes are oddly dejavu for me. Back during the day of Napster, digital music was starting to break out and suddenly music sales are dropping. They all jumped on wagon blaming illegal downloads as the cause. While they fought that battle they failed to properly adapt to the growing changes in the market and by the time they started embracing selling/buying digital music and online music services... the impact already happened and they were too late. Yes I realize apples and oranges but they it is still relevant because we're talking about fruit (marketing/sales).
Online stores aren't strictly about the price. Saving money is great but it isn't that someone saves $5-$20 on something but the fact that they CAN buy it and delivered. It is about choice and convenience. I can go to my Local Game Store (LGS) with 10 things on my to-buy list and I will only find 2 of them. That is because 2 of those things are "new" and "hot" but the other 8 are stuff I've been waiting to buy but just haven't gotten around to it. Now I could buy those 2 things, then buy the other 8 online or I could buy all 10 of them online and skip going to the store at all. Price wasn't even the factor... it was all about availability.
Manufacturers, Publishers, Distributors, and Retailers do not fully understand or grasp the situation. They all say they want to help each other but they don't really. Yes there is organized play and there are organized play kits. These kits usually provide prizes, which is what draws people to the store. That is great! However simply being at the store doesn't translate to sales if they don't have what someone wants to buy especially since a good portion of purchases tend to be impulse.
For example this happens all the time with Magic. Someone thought they had a great deck but suddenly saw this idea that looked great. They can walk up to the counter and 80% of the time be able to buy the cards they need. With board and miniatures games, you are lucky to be able to walk to the counter and find 20% of what you want because it might not be the flavor of the month.
LGS can't simply just drop $10K into stock on items and hope it sells. They are reserved so they might take a chance on a couple things but most of the time they'll carry the top 10 sellers. They will probably only order 2-4 so they don't sit on the shelves for long periods of time. The idea is that if they don't have it, they can special order it. At this point convenience was lost to them. Someone was in the store and able to buy but it wasn't there. Why would they special order it when they can go to online?
What happens to stock that doesn't get sold? They lose money. Eventually they will discount it and hope it sells as they try to break even on it. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The problem is they can't do anything with dead stock. They can't exchange it at equal dollar value they paid and if someone takes the return, there may or may not be a restocking fee. That hassle means when they order, they will be less likely to order cases and only a few. That means they will less likely take chances. Instead they wait for something to be hot, then stock it but by the time they do ... did they already lose out on sales?
Until manufacturers work with distributors to come up with a solution to lets LGS carry a wide variety of stock, but not carry the whole financial risk on themselves... this will not change anything.
I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.
Dark Severance wrote: These market changes are oddly dejavu for me. Back during the day of Napster, digital music was starting to break out and suddenly music sales are dropping. They all jumped on wagon blaming illegal downloads as the cause. While they fought that battle they failed to properly adapt to the growing changes in the market and by the time they started embracing selling/buying digital music and online music services... the impact already happened and they were too late. Yes I realize apples and oranges but they it is still relevant because we're talking about fruit (marketing/sales).
Online stores aren't strictly about the price. Saving money is great but it isn't that someone saves $5-$20 on something but the fact that they CAN buy it and delivered. It is about choice and convenience. I can go to my Local Game Store (LGS) with 10 things on my to-buy list and I will only find 2 of them. That is because 2 of those things are "new" and "hot" but the other 8 are stuff I've been waiting to buy but just haven't gotten around to it. Now I could buy those 2 things, then buy the other 8 online or I could buy all 10 of them online and skip going to the store at all. Price wasn't even the factor... it was all about availability.
Manufacturers, Publishers, Distributors, and Retailers do not fully understand or grasp the situation. They all say they want to help each other but they don't really. Yes there is organized play and there are organized play kits. These kits usually provide prizes, which is what draws people to the store. That is great! However simply being at the store doesn't translate to sales if they don't have what someone wants to buy especially since a good portion of purchases tend to be impulse.
For example this happens all the time with Magic. Someone thought they had a great deck but suddenly saw this idea that looked great. They can walk up to the counter and 80% of the time be able to buy the cards they need. With board and miniatures games, you are lucky to be able to walk to the counter and find 20% of what you want because it might not be the flavor of the month.
LGS can't simply just drop $10K into stock on items and hope it sells. They are reserved so they might take a chance on a couple things but most of the time they'll carry the top 10 sellers. They will probably only order 2-4 so they don't sit on the shelves for long periods of time. The idea is that if they don't have it, they can special order it. At this point convenience was lost to them. Someone was in the store and able to buy but it wasn't there. Why would they special order it when they can go to online?
What happens to stock that doesn't get sold? They lose money. Eventually they will discount it and hope it sells as they try to break even on it. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The problem is they can't do anything with dead stock. They can't exchange it at equal dollar value they paid and if someone takes the return, there may or may not be a restocking fee. That hassle means when they order, they will be less likely to order cases and only a few. That means they will less likely take chances. Instead they wait for something to be hot, then stock it but by the time they do ... did they already lose out on sales?
Until manufacturers work with distributors to come up with a solution to lets LGS carry a wide variety of stock, but not carry the whole financial risk on themselves... this will not change anything.
I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP. Online discounters hurt manufacturers' direct webstore sales much more than they hurt the LGS. The LGS was never carrying all the products that the online discounter is carrying and never will. Helping the LGS is just a nice public relations spin on the real issue of manufacturers wanting to corner the market for online sales. Buying direct from the manufacturer at MSRP is the best outcome for manufacturers and online discounters are their biggest obstacle to that outcome. "Saving" brick and mortar stores is just the best way for them to get consumers to accept higher prices and the removal of online discoutners from the market.
jmw23 wrote: I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.
The whole support your local FLGS is nothing more than a smokescreen - it's meant to guilt trip into supporting the 'little guy' against evil corporate interests.
It won't work on me, because bad FLGS deserve to go to the wall - I'll shed no tears for them, and I've known a few in my time.
If PP want to do a GW, then good luck to them. Personally, I couldn't give a damn about GW. Their treatment of hobbyists and their crazy prices and culture over the years, burnt too many bridges with me. I have a ton of better companies to choose from.
As for PP, I've never bought any of their products in my life, and I'm less inclined to now with this announcement.
Prestor Jon wrote: I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP.
You are correct that is ultimately what miniatures companies would want. Buying directly from them means they cut the distributor out and can pocket the full markup margin. I was being general because I included board games as well because this was a 'popular topic' the past couple years at Origins and GenCon amongst game companies. It is often a common complaint brought to them by LGS that online sales is hurting their business and what can they do about it.
Miniatures manufacturers however will have to adapt because they can't expect people to buy directly from them. Honestly I can't even remember the first time I've bought directly from large companies. I understand what they want with their smoke and mirrors and trying to say they are helping LGS... but the reality is they aren't.
This. As I said before in the thread, the biggest problem with the logic of "we're being undercut, that's why we can't sell at MSRP!" is that it presumes that there is a large group of people that would be willing to buy PP stuff at MSRP.
PP simply isn't selling a product (in many cases) that is worth the price they are demanding for it. That's my opinion and so I either 1) buy when the product has been sufficiently discounted to meet its quality, or 2) simply don't buy.
Prestor Jon wrote: I don't think manufacturers want LGS to carry a wide variety of stock. I think manufacturers want LGS to carry the biggest sellers and good introductory products and have consumers buy everything else direct from the manufacturers webstore at MSRP.
You are correct that is ultimately what miniatures companies would want. Buying directly from them means they cut the distributor out and can pocket the full markup margin. I was being general because I included board games as well because this was a 'popular topic' the past couple years at Origins and GenCon amongst game companies. It is often a common complaint brought to them by LGS that online sales is hurting their business and what can they do about it.
Miniatures manufacturers however will have to adapt because they can't expect people to buy directly from them. Honestly I can't even remember the first time I've bought directly from large companies. I understand what they want with their smoke and mirrors and trying to say they are helping LGS... but the reality is they aren't.
I haven't bought much from big companies in years either. With limited hobby time and budget I find myself taking the time to find exactly what I want which typically leads me to purchase from a small company or sculptor's webstore or back a KS. I think the hobby is going to keep moving towards having niches within niches which helps people find what they want but makes it harder for a brick and mortar store to know what to stock outside of the handful of widely popular games. In that regard I think Kickstarter is a bigger threat to the LGS than online discounters but KS is much less of a threat to manufacturers as we see plenty of manufacturers using KS.
I get where you're coming from, and there are many parallels in other, larger industries like technology (Best Buy) and books (B&N, Chapters). In many cases, online is simply much more efficient. There is a danger for consumers to this, however. In the short term, sure, we benefit from prices being lower online as compared to brick and mortar prices that we're used to. However, in the long term, as B&M's go out of business, the online price with the lower margin slowly becomes the only price, and then, the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen -- they'll just sell directly (or through an intermediate like Amazon) to the customer, and make a little bit more. Sounds good, right? Cut out the 50% in the middle, and all that. But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.
This is why that while I want to buy my product as cheaply as possible, I don't really have a problem with PP or GW discouraging a "race to the bottom" for prices, because in the long run (years and decades), I don't think it will be helpful for prices from a purely personal, selfish point of view.
I think your idea of the plan that GW/PP have is correct, but I think the outcome is going to be very different than what you, and GW/PP, expect.
It is very optimistic for them to believe that they will be able to cut out the middle men and raise the price without anyone having recourse. Say best case scenario is PP removes all other retailers and is the only one selling their products** anywhere. They now have a retail monopoly on PP games and models. They can raise their prices, and no one will be able to get PP models and games for less than that. No competition!
Except they do have competition, in the form of every other manufacturer out there, every other hobby/game system, and frankly every recaster. So people start using other models to play Warmahordes, or another very similar game system pops up that offers roughly the same experience for 1/10th the price. (Hi, Mantic; have you met PP?) Or people decide that PP games just aren't worth it any try other stuff and never come back. Or buy a new Playstation. Or buy chinese knock-offs.
So PP can increase their prices and can monopolize their product sales away from 3rd parties, but the result is that they will lose customers. It might work out that they make more money off fewer sales and so are ok with this state of affairs, but more likely they will shed customers and lose money in the process. Especially considering that the learning curve for Warmahordes is REALLY steep compared to GW games, so relying on player churn like GW seems to is less of an option. (Also, PP models are not as nice as most GW stuff, for certain values of "nice.")
This becomes even less likely to work out into higher prices when you consider that we got there by the method of racing to the bottom. People are going to get used to lower prices, and sellers are going to get used to working with lower margins. That makes both the demand and the supply side of the world much less willing to accept price increases. If people get used to paying 3$ per model they are going to balk at paying 10$, and vendors and makers of their own games are going to see a big opportunity there. Particularly if they can make better models, which is pretty clearly the case.
So really, I don't think that the long term effects of "race to the bottom" pricing will be higher prices for miniatures and games. It might mean that some games become more expensive and less played, but the over all game market will likely see lower pricing across the board. Especially if game companies want to access the huge volumes available though Amazon etc. GW and PP might want to be a niche like Kingdom Death is a niche, but I suspect they will both find that a hard niche to survive in.
** They could do this right this second by dropping the prices on their web store to wholesale, 66% off MSRP (well, and selling all their stuff on it). Or they could raise wholesale to 75% of MSRP or whatever. Why don't they do that?
Months ago my go to online store here in Germany stopped getting their usual terms from Ulysis who distribute WarmaHordes here, despite having tables AND hosting WarmaHordes events. They dropped the ranges (as in, didn't reorder anything). I haven't bought a PP product since then.
This statement would have me considering that as well if I wasn't out at the moment, anyway. I don't HAVE a FLGS. There's A store in my city, but I rarely go there. I want to play, as rare as it is at home with friends and family. Playing strangers doesn't appeal to me. Their offerings are rather slim for minis as well, much more RPG stuff there. I buy a paint from them every now and then, but the rest I get online where I can browse dozens of different ranges and take days or weeks to decide what I want.
PS: They have a copy of Dreadfleet though if anyone is interested
Manchu wrote: Some of you may recall that this is exactly how GW's online presence spiraled into oblivion.
What? GW online presence is fine it's my primary form of purchasing disregarding flgs impulse buys. And I can still get 25% off online with GW products with free shipping.
Just because GW doesn't allow online retailers to advertise doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Let's not forget GW tankshock campaign is really only for flgs and not GW retail stores and it's only purpose is to promote flgs sales. They even gave the flgs extra discounts so they can make more profit.
Now GW just needs to promote thier retail outlets by selling FW books and allowing the GW stores to order FW stock. So people will go to the store for pickups and save money by not paying shipping fees.
Whoa there, hold up - I meant their web forum, not the fact that they are an online retailer ... who passes no savings from circumventing the middle men on to their customers, by the way.
jmw23 wrote: I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.
I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.
Ketara wrote: In all fairness, GW is also the middleman in their supply chain, as they also operate an extensive retail chain.
True enough - although in the US their retail practices have actually only damaged communities of gamers in recent years by undercutting any LGS in the area. They would come in, set up close to a LGS, then disappear after a little while.
Plus this just gets back to the problem of me having to pay for GW to sell games to other people.
jmw23 wrote: I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.
I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.
Getting mentioned in the same sentence as Battlefront Miniatures or Games Workshop isn't exactly something any company should strive for
Sigvatr wrote: If anything, maybe it's a good time for the US to start adopting / considering the EU/UK trend of gaming clubs.
This is my dream model but I doubt it will ever take in the US.
It did exist in the US, mainly for, if not exclusively for, Historicals. This would be back in the '60's and '70s. It may still exist. There was, and may still be, a 40k club in Northern Va called the Iron Fist League.
A club system may well make a re-appearance. I see a lot of use of things like Google groups being used as pseudo-clubs. I think we will see something club-like evolve here in the US.
That is what the market seems to think. PP seems to think differently. This sort of disagreement rarely ends well for the producer, unless said producer gets Uncle Sam to step in and protect them.
If consumers cannot get the product at a price they feel is worth paying, what then of PP?
Talys wrote: I get where you're coming from, and there are many parallels in other, larger industries like technology (Best Buy) and books (B&N, Chapters). In many cases, online is simply much more efficient. There is a danger for consumers to this, however. In the short term, sure, we benefit from prices being lower online as compared to brick and mortar prices that we're used to. However, in the long term, as B&M's go out of business, the online price with the lower margin slowly becomes the only price, and then, the manufacturers have no incentive to support any middlemen -- they'll just sell directly (or through an intermediate like Amazon) to the customer, and make a little bit more. Sounds good, right? Cut out the 50% in the middle, and all that. But once we get used to that, they can slowly inflate the prices, and because these are such niche markets, they'll be able to get away with it.
This is why that while I want to buy my product as cheaply as possible, I don't really have a problem with PP or GW discouraging a "race to the bottom" for prices, because in the long run (years and decades), I don't think it will be helpful for prices from a purely personal, selfish point of view.
I generally agree that B&M hobby/gaming shops are having a much harder time with miniature games than they used to. With comic books, too, which many of these stores sell. On the other hand, I wouldn't call them a failing or failed industry, principally because of collectible card games. These are just huge sellers, highly profitable, and work really well in a retail environment. Singles are better sold in a physical store, because condition matters, and shipping is an issue (or risk) if you want one card.
Also, they're very conducive to play in a store, whereas some miniature-based games are just a pain to transport (cough 40k cough), and the social experience is made even easier by extremely short games with no setup time.
Ah, the slippery slope fallacy in all its glory. Or Conspiracy Theory 101. The current LGS business model is ailing, and will eventually fail. Something will arise to replace it-- that whole creative destruction thing Schumpeter wrote about. Consumers should always look for the best bargain for their money. Always.
Games Stores are not hated. Eleemosynary Game Stores are hated. Poorly run game stores are hated. Running a Games Store is work, hard work. The store owners that put in the work will adapt and succeed, and I wish them well. The others, let them sink. Something better will replace them, eventually, if there is a demand.
jmw23 wrote: I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of this kind of behavior in the industry as time goes on. GW, PP, and Asmodee are just the beginning. If you believe that any of this has to do with supporting local game stores, you are fooling yourself.
I just remembered the first instance I've seen - Battlefront Miniatures (FoW) has always enforced a 10% discount limit and broke off all trading with Maelstrom Games over breaching this limit.
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
And for me, its all about convenience. I have 5-6 LGS within an hour of me, and I infrequently stop by one or two to get paints, or the odd browse purchase. The rest of the time I'm buying online for the convenience - none of the shops around carry Perry metals, or Artizan, or Knuckleduster. So I'll also buy my 40k or 30k online while I'm getting my other stuff.
The issue with FLGS and the distance from home to the store itself has already been adressed, but there's more than just convenience: money, i.e. additional cost
Most online retailers ship for free after a certain threshold is met (well...if you pay more than 50€, often; Amazon is 29+€ or free for Prime) and postage usually doesn't exceed a few € (3€-7€). Now...you still need to get to your local store. If you live close to it and you can just walk or ride ya bike, awesome. If you gotta go there by public transportation, you either have a monthly ticket (awesome) or have to pay for two direction which, in Germany, would be 5-7€ in total, adding to your shopping cost. You see where I'm getting. Drive by car and you gotta pay for fuel and a parking ticket (1,50-3€ / hour) or get lucky and live in a smaller city.
It's not a limiting factor, especially not for many, but cost definitely starts becoming important for some people, it's not just about convenience.
Red Harvest wrote: A club system may well make a re-appearance. I see a lot of use of things like Google groups being used as pseudo-clubs. I think we will see something club-like evolve here in the US.
Closest thing to public events I've found in the San Francisco Bay Area have been Meetups and some older Yahoo Groups mailing lists. However, it's all for Eurogames and the occasional Ameritrash game. It's not for "lifestyle" games, such as miniature wargaming, RPGs, or CCGs. CCGs are taken care of by the FLGS's. RPGs have a unique situation in that most RPG groups have a maximum number of players in a group, making them tricky as public events (although you can find organized D&D and Pathfinder play through some FLGS;s and conventions). FLGS and conventions are the only public ways I know of to play miniature wargames. But, sure, I'd like to know more about clubs for miniatures wargaming and how they attract members, etc.
Thanks calling out the fallacy of the slippery slope. Amazon was founded in 1994, meaning it's had *twenty* years to destroy the b&m bookstore business. Television hasn't kept us from seeing films, and films haven't stopped us (well, not you) from attending plays. Email hasn't kept us (or at least my Mom) from writing holiday cards. Tablets and the internet hasn't kept us from newspapers, magazines, or books. An old technology or business model doesn't entirely go away when the new one is 98% better, if there's enough market for that 2% to survive. Some people *still* like to go to bookstores, some still like plays, some still like dead trees, and some still write sappy greeting cards.
As an aside, as a survivor of the 1980's comics glut, then the 1990's CCG glut, I've noticed that, while a market shrinks, its may only shrink down to a few major players, particularly for "lifestyle" games, which require a "critical mass" of many players to remain sustainable. (Sorta like "tail theory" without the tail.) So while you may like Mythos CCG more than Magic, you still end up playing Magic (or playing Pathfinder when you prefer Middle Earth) because everyone else in the market is playing it as well. So while the market (ie. us) doesn't entirely disappear, publishers (like PP) may do so, as the market slowly contracts. Insert GW's new policies here.
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MMBF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.
Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MMBF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.
One of the main UK online sellers offers 20% openly, as do at least several others. On the whole Hawk range.
With regards Privateer, when I started a few years ago Warmachine seemed pretty cheap compared to bad ol GW, now it's pretty much the same but with hardly any retail support near me. Whereas GW stockists have ballooned and there are 3 clubs near me all primarily for GW. Cycles eh?
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MMBF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.
Why? They went to Kickstarter to Kickstart their Dropfleet Commander range, not to screw over stores and steel everyones money.
He doesn't feel bad about giving them money via Kickstarter, he feels bad about not being able to get a big enough discount on the models when they hit retail.
So he basically doesn't give a crap about the FLGS in either case.
Crimson Devil wrote: Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
TalonZahn wrote: I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.
I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.
I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.
I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.
I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.
With all due respect, costs are regional.
This.
An online retailer, can rent a warehouse that is in the middle of nowhere; a FLGS has to be accessible and central. This always costs more.
An online retailer can put the simplest of the dexion shelving; a FLGS has to maintain a totally different environment that does not look like a warehouse and instead inspires gameplay. This always costs more.
An online retailer can work with little to no stock; a FLGS has to maintain constant stock and also base a percentage of his regular income from 'spontaneous' sales. This always costs more.
An online retailer can work during any hours he pleases; a FLGS has to work during precise working hours, and often sacrifice Saturdays and Sundays for the sake of events, thus wages go up. This always (you guessed it!) costs more.
On-line retailers are great and offer access to miniatures many people would never have had. But FLGS must be supported for the sake of the hobby itself, not only as businesses. The way to do this... well, it's messy and tricky.
Ultimately the gamers and the community as a whole need both!
hotsauceman1 wrote: the best way, Iin my experiance and my opinion to make a game grow and have them buy from you? Events for the game they play, more tournaments, more game nights, more of everything, it shows you care about them more past their $$$$, the problem is that how most FLGS people see their customers, as walking wallets.
A business has to make money, it will not survive otherwise. I fully comprehend FLGSs feeling the threat/heat of "online only" vendors.
And btw, apologies but I fail to follow, where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?
Smellingsalts wrote: The only thing that may have been more fair would have been to set the discounting limit.
That's not a way to regulate online discounters however, at least not from our point of view. The example you state above would also be illegal in Greece (just like refusing sales as I wrote prior to this).
The only ways we have found to regulate discounts is allowing limited orders (due to capacity restrictions, that is not against the law here) and/or simply not dealing with some distributors. We would have had twice the list (if not even triple!) of available distributors/retailers that carry our line had we caved in to the demands many of them had (some of them reputed to be very very big -if not the largest- in our industry). Tut mir leid, we will live without you...
On-line retailers are great and offer access to miniatures many people would never have had. But FLGS must be supported for the sake of the hobby itself, not only as businesses.
Why? They /are/ a business. If they cannot make plaers /want/ to go and buy there and thus be profitable, then they are not doing a good job. As the UK and EU show, they aren't necessary at all. If you want to play a tabletop game with others you can meetup via Facebook, forums, reddit etc. to get a group in your area and meet at someone's home to play or even have your own space. Where is the need for a FLGS?
FLGS are just that: LGS. If they cannot catch up with online retailers, then sorry, but you need a new job.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?
At home if you got a big house, in your garage, you can locally rent a place, either for a longer time or for just a day at very low cost; churches for example, in Germany, can be rented as they usually have very large community rooms. Dirt cheap might I add. My wife and I have been running tournaments for many years now - and granted, we are wealthy and can afford supporting a home for three gaming clubs in an actual rented apartment, but even your regular guy can do this.
@Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)
As for the gaming in house and hosting 50 people in a garage or a house, I'm not saying it's not doable but is easier said than done.
And things in Germany might be different but if I ever went to one of the local churches and asked them to stage an event with toy soldiers shooting arrows and butchering each other... yeah, priest would most probably look at me like I owed him money (or some type of similar glance)
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-))
I'll disagree with your disagreement
As a customer, my introduction to the hobby were my friends, not the guy behind the counter. Games Workshop smartly cross-pollinated their miniatures with their (at the time) various game systems -- and their miniatures were *good*. Since we were teens, we *did* meet in each other's houses, since you could get there by bike, and didn't need a car. The FLGS was like the candy shop, except games were *expensive*. We weren't cheap and looking for discounts, we *didn't have any money* because we didn't have jobs (something about studying to get into college or something) and these games cost *much* more than the mainstream stuff.
But that was then. I'm curious *now* if gamers (and that also means kids and teenagers) entering the hobby really depend on the FLGS as much as some say they do. I've read plenty of examples of gamers who don't have a FLGS, or only have an LGS.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)
Nonsense, in my experience. I got into wargaming because my Mum's friend had kids who looked after me while they socialised and who were into wargaming, I then got a friend into it, and between us two more, and only then after having already made several purchases did we actually use the facilities/services of the local GW, even after which we still spent most of our gaming time at each others' houses or at the school's wargaming club.. An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
FLGS have played a role in some people's entry into the hobby, but the fact wargaming exists just about everywhere, even places with no stores at all, plus my own anecdotal experience(and that of others I've spoken to over the years, who almost all came into it via friends or family) leads me to think that most people come to wargaming through word of mouth, not by randomly stumbling into a store, and given the internet is now a thing that exists combined with the fact people have been gaming without using stores all over Europe for decades, the assertion that we needFLGS for the hobby to survive is farcical.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
As for the gaming in house and hosting 50 people in a garage or a house, I'm not saying it's not doable but is easier said than done.
And things in Germany might be different but if I ever went to one of the local churches and asked them to stage an event with toy soldiers shooting arrows and butchering each other... yeah, priest would most probably look at me like I owed him money (or some type of similar glance)
Unless your local church is affiliated with the Westboro Baptists, then you'll probably be fine providing you don't bill the club night as "Wargaming and Satan Worship - Fun for all the family!".
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential. If you don't agree with that, we will politely agree to disagree. :-)
Friends are what get people in the hobby, not LGS. I don't think someone just walks by a LGS and goes inside (keep in mind that most GS don't have minis on display viewable from the outside), see a miniature game and thinks "Hey, I'm going to immediately buy a few miniatures!". You go show it to a friend, you buy a starter together and start playing. What happens nowadays, very often, isn't that thing. It's people seeing something, then looking up reviews and battle reports on YouTube to get a better idea of the game, then deciding whether to get it or not.
We currently are at max capacity, but when we started out, it was just telling friends about it. Invitem them over, a beer or two go along quite well, play a game or two, introduce them, hooked.
My main point is: the players decide, must decide, where they want their hobby to be. It's in their hands. It's how the club movement started - people wanted to play with whoever they want, where they want, what they want. LGS aren't necessary to hook new players, it's players looking for more themselves
What PP now does essentially is trying to bail bad businesses out. They invest a LOT of money (i.e. by alienating customers and thus losing out on cash) in a shrinking and oldy times business. It's like trying to keep a ship from sinking with a bucket.
The only place I play is my local gaming club; it brings in players from within about 20 miles from all the small towns and villages and we play a wide range of table and board games.
Where I used to live there were 2 LGC's within walking distance, one with play space, the other without. I bought some airbrush masking tape in one once when I ran out in the middle of painting but otherwise never went into or purchased anything in either
I originally got into 40k through buying the 2nd edition starter from Argos and while growing up with my parents would pop into the local GW whenever we went into the nearest town, though only ever played in there once (and didn't really like it).
All my purchases are online either direct from manufacturers (Hasslefree, Reaper, Scibor, etc), or from online stores (Element Games for 40k)
Yodhrin wrote: An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
Four large clubs, only for wargaming? Yes, in the UK there are these large clubs you speak of (and probably in some other countries too), not in the majority of the countries worldwide in my knowledge.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Nowhere did I say that they must pay higher prices.
I also said the community needs both (online and B&M).
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
Just to make it clear I don't endorse PPs decision (if you read my first post I initially thought it a hoax!). What we do want is FLGSs to be viable; they certainly don't depend on us for that, we have no illusions :-)
Rest is spoilered because this thread is about PP decision and not about Shieldwolf or KickStarter.
Spoiler:
I disagree with what you wrote above concerning Kickstarter, we only started using KS last year and have funded two crowdfunding campaigns only in order to augment the range and exposure (which ultimately will benefit FLGSs who carry our line). These products would have never seen the light of day had it not been for us and the backers who (with everyones wallets involved) now boast the best Mammoth, Wyvern, lions and twin-headed Dragon worldwide, and soon the best norse army (female too), again, worldwide! For the record we are very pleased we decided to go down this route since it allows us to grow and meet market's needs without having to wait years for it.
I comprehend the reason why you wrote that because you are saying we sold product instead of allowing it to be sold by the FLGSs, but bear with me for a minute. You are saying FLGSs lost sales/received damage from us because some people purchased via our KS items they are already carrying, correct? Well, we do not see it the same way. The "sales" they lost is a very small price to pay for what we would like them to sell in the future. You see, the faster more people experience our current quality in product and service, the larger the chances more will be interested to purchase, which will inevitably drive a portion of them towards the FLGS (who receive a hefty yet viable discount from us) and thus will augment the revenue these stores get.
We don't interfere with sales from FLGSs, we do not dictate their discounts and they are free to do as they please. Making our range more known to the public will ultimately help them out. We also do not (and will not) treat KS as a pre-sale stand (we have already proved that by only recently restricting access to a large part of our range during the last KS, even though it was requested by a number of backers).
Also, we have already sponsored and keep sponsoring various events on FLGSs, while we have never sponsored the "on-line only" retailers (wouldn't even know how but I don't care). We have even sponsored events with Sci-fi, in which we have zero interest! Imagine that, Shieldwolf who is no "Giant" doing something like that... :-)
One last thing; we have seen a number of fire sales/discounts due to Black Friday, celebrating 5 years existence, celebrating holidays, celebrating Mary Poppins, whatever. The thing is, these discount directly from the source. Now I am not saying we might not do it ourselves at some point, but we are fighting not to, and even if we do at some point it will be very limited. Do you know how many fire-sales or any of this type of celebrations we have done all these years? I do. None. Not a single discounted period ever e.g. "We now offer all of our Araves range at -20%, offer lasts till X date". That should also speak by itself about our Policies. :-D
Yeah, I didn't get into the hobby because of a store; I got into it because my dad had tons of model kits and board games (notably Battletech, which got me liking big robots) and that then that created a good environment for the spark of a Space Marine and Titans when my friend's brother introduced me to them. Thus, I was already doing "hobby" things for years before I even knew where a gaming store was in this area.
What is key for the growth of a line is people playing it and letting other people know about it which is now vastly simpler via social media. The FLGS isn't really the thing that's doing that, the people that play there are. Yes, having an established and identified venue for things helps greatly, especially in areas with lots of population turnover, but it is not a requirement in the way that many FLGS dearly wish it was.
When I got back into the hobby after college I was buying stuff like mad (ok, that hasn't changed) but all I would do is walk into a store, grab items from the shelf and then buy them. As Manchu put it, if the cost of MSRP includes services provided by the retailer, then they were getting money for nothing because for the most part they were not providing any service at all. I knew what I wanted, how much of it I wanted, and was keenly disinterested in anything else. Even today that's largely the case and probably more so given that I haven't gamed in a store for nearly 12 years.
That's not to say I'm anti-FLGS; I find a couple of them in my area to be great to go into and I do try to buy the small things there when I can, or if they happen to have something I'm after in stock. However, not even the good ones are willing to work out any deals on large orders so when I know I want quantity or it's not going to be locally available, then I go online. That's their choice to not chase the dollars on offer though so I don't feel bad in the slightest.
I'm torn. On the one hand, at least it's not AS bad as some other companies' policies because online retailers are still allowed to sell PP stuff and use the shopping cart and everything, and I am in favor of protecting the interests of FLGSs.
I, personally, may not have gotten into miniature gaming because of FLGS, but I absolutely continued playing because of them as most of the friends I played with either moved or lost interest, so for me (and many, many others) there is inherent value in FLGS existing.
But, generally, I'm not a huge fan of businesses telling other businesses how their products can be sold (though I suppose this is standard practice in many industries? I hear that, for example, Jordan shoes forbids retailers form advertising their products at discounts above a certain percentage, though they can still sell them at huge discounts as long as they don't advertise them).
Overall, this doesn't affect my opinion of PP much, but FFG and GW's online sales policies didn't affect my opinion of them much either (my opinions of those companies are what they are for lots of other reasons).
EDIT: Not being clear about what constitutes too deep of a discount, however, is very bad.
Yodhrin wrote: An FLGS didn't even exist in this city until a few years ago, it was GW store or nothing, yet there are four large clubs that cater to just wargaming, and a few more more which do a mix of wargaming, boardgames, cardgames, and RPGs.
Four large clubs, only for wargaming? Yes, in the UK there are these large clubs you speak of (and probably in some other countries too), not in the majority of the countries worldwide in my knowledge.
And yet just a few posts up there is someone from Germany telling you the exact same thing; clubs like that exist all over Europe, from what I've seen there's usually at least one in any major population centre, but regardless - your assertion is that FLGS are necessary for a healthy wargaming community, but if big communities can form and sustain themselves almost entirely using the gaming club model, that's demonstrably incorrect, what's necessary is a few folk willing to give up a little of their own hobby time to get the community going.
Just because something doesn't exist now doesn't mean it can't exist, or that whatever exists in its place is superior or even just as good.
The idea that people who don't even use FLGS should have to pay higher prices to support failing businesses that have nothing to do with them or their hobby is beyond farcical, it's insulting.
Nowhere did I say that they must pay higher prices.
I also said the community needs both (online and B&M).
But PP, GW and others are saying we must pay higher prices. They are cracking down on discounters who took advantage of the cost savings of the internet and of not providing a physical high-street retail location to give those of us who have no need of a physical high-street retail location or its services a better price, explicitly to prop up failing B&M stores that we don't use and don't benefit from.
Besides which, it's a wee tiny bit rich for yourselves to be taking this line considering your use of Kickstarter - or is it only okay to take advantage of aspects of the internet that screw over FLGS when companies do it not consumers?
Just to make it clear I don't endorse PPs decision (if you read my first post I initially thought it a hoax!). What we do want is FLGSs to be viable; they certainly don't depend on us for that, we have no illusions :-)
Rest is spoilered because this thread is about PP decision and not about Shieldwolf or KickStarter.
Spoiler:
I disagree with what you wrote above concerning Kickstarter, we only started using KS last year and have funded two crowdfunding campaigns only in order to augment the range and exposure (which ultimately will benefit FLGSs who carry our line). These products would have never seen the light of day had it not been for us and the backers who (with everyones wallets involved) now boast the best Mammoth, Wyvern, lions and twin-headed Dragon worldwide, and soon the best norse army (female too), again, worldwide! For the record we are very pleased we decided to go down this route since it allows us to grow and meet market's needs without having to wait years for it.
I comprehend the reason why you wrote that because you are saying we sold product instead of allowing it to be sold by the FLGSs, but bear with me for a minute. You are saying FLGSs lost sales/received damage from us because some people purchased via our KS items they are already carrying, correct? Well, we do not see it the same way. The "sales" they lost is a very small price to pay for what we would like them to sell in the future. You see, the faster more people experience our current quality in product and service, the larger the chances more will be interested to purchase, which will inevitably drive a portion of them towards the FLGS (who receive a hefty yet viable discount from us) and thus will augment the revenue these stores get.
We don't interfere with sales from FLGSs, we do not dictate their discounts and they are free to do as they please. Making our range more known to the public will ultimately help them out. We also do not (and will not) treat KS as a pre-sale stand (we have already proved that by only recently restricting access to a large part of our range during the last KS, even though it was requested by a number of backers).
Also, we have already sponsored and keep sponsoring various events on FLGSs, while we have never sponsored the "on-line only" retailers (wouldn't even know how but I don't care). We have even sponsored events with Sci-fi, in which we have zero interest! Imagine that, Shieldwolf who is no "Giant" doing something like that... :-)
One last thing; we have seen a number of fire sales/discounts due to Black Friday, celebrating 5 years existence, celebrating holidays, celebrating Mary Poppins, whatever. The thing is, these discount directly from the source. Now I am not saying we might not do it ourselves at some point, but we are fighting not to, and even if we do at some point it will be very limited. Do you know how many fire-sales or any of this type of celebrations we have done all these years? I do. None. Not a single discounted period ever e.g. "We now offer all of our Araves range at -20%, offer lasts till X date". That should also speak by itself about our Policies. :-D
I'm not saying anything about KS, it's the FLGS owners who support these kinds of discounting crackdowns who insist Kickstarter is damaging their businesses. IMO it's a fantastic platform, I've made the arguments you make here in defence of it before, but many FLGS owners don't give the tiniest little gak about you being able to rapidly expand your range or niche products that would otherwise never have been made finding funding, all they care about is the fact that people are spending more of their hobby money on Kickstarter and less in their shops, just as they don't care about the value and convenience offered by discounters, they just want less people buying from discounter and more buying from them.
But they don't want to compete with Kickstarter and they don't want to compete with discounters, they want to guilt-trip customers and small producers into not using KS and they want big publishers to use preferential trade terms to artificially limit discounters. My point in bringing it up was it's a touch hypocritical to support their condemnation of discounting while also taking advantage of a platform they consider just as damaging to their business.
Online discounters can provide the product cheaper. Clubs can provide space to game. Facebook and other social media allows a community to organise. The FLGS model is simply no longer necessary, and as a result many FLGSs which aren't willing or able to innovate their business model are dying out - I say let them die.
Yodhrin wrote: Online discounters can provide the product cheaper. Clubs can provide space to game. Facebook and other social media allows a community to organise. The FLGS model is simply no longer necessary, and as a result many FLGSs which aren't willing or able to innovate their business model are dying out - I say let them die.
Correct. I've long felt that FLGSs need to provide something more than "table space" if they want to survive in this day and age. When you can't compete with prices, don't stock/support more than a handful of games (as understandable as that is), and rely on what is basically charity of "support where you play", you aren't really bringing much to the table that can't be gotten with a solid gaming club and renting a space (although this seems harder in the US than overseas) and then coordinating all activities via Facebook or similar social media; in fact, in that case you never have to worry about there not being enough space (for instance, this weekend is a MtG pre-release. My local shop has zero room for me to even play Warmachine if I wanted to this weekend) and has the added benefit of exposing club members to a variety of games rather than the "chosen game" of the shop. For example, if I wanted to play let's say Infinity, well it's not supported at my local shop. If I tried to play it there I'd likely get dirty looks if not outright hostility for daring to bring something that the shop can't/won't stock, therefore not supporting the shop (I've had this actually happen before; had regulars basically say don't play X game here because the store owner can't stock it, so it's not supporting him).
I'd much rather pay club dues and meet my buddies every 2 weeks or so at an independent venue that has no interest in what we play, so I could be exposed to various things. For instance, I am curious about historical games. If the club had people who play that, well I can introduce myself and learn about it, and have people to play with. That's much better than having no place to play it because the FLGS has no interest in supporting that, and the mere suggestion of an alternative basically gets shot down because it won't benefit the store unless the owner can stock it and there's more than just 1-2 people interested in playing it. A gaming club doesn't have that problem, and benefits more from the exposure of having even 2 people who play let's say Napoleonics, because then other club members can see it and try it out, and all of a sudden you can get more people to like that genre of gaming.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
+1 nope. Friends at school. If anything, (F)LGS were a hindrance to getting into the hobby. My parents thought it was a bad scene and the stores sure as hell weren't accommodating to new players.
Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote: @Sivatr
FLGS are what mainly brings in more people to the hobby. For us, it is not only important, it is essential.
+1 nope. Friends at school. If anything, (F)LGS were a hindrance to getting into the hobby. My parents thought it was a bad scene and the stores sure as hell weren't accommodating to new players.
This. I would have subscribed to that assumpion ("LGS are important for the hobby") right up until the mid of the 90s, because tabletop games were only visible in those stores, or gaming clubs.
Today, most of the info is provided by the internet, and people to play are found either in school or college first, forums and facebook second.
Not saying that stores are not an important multiplicator. Just saying that the whole "the hobby scene will wither and die if we do not give incompetent store owners more leeway" is bollocks.
What you fail to take account of is that players are the end users and not PP's customers ie the game store and distributors who are handing over the money to them. So they are looking after their customers from that PoV.
I didn't have a store or friends truly get me into the hobby.
I was the Progenitor!
A strong interest in fantasy kept me digging in to new avenues of interest, and around 4th or 5th grade I fell down that rabbit hole and only recovered for a little bit around high school through college.
All the shops did was continue to fuel the fire. Shops closed up, interested died out.
Internet eventually got into our house, interest in hobby returned (with a solid 15+ year Gundam interim period).
The shops for me have always been an item of convenience rather than a necessity.
Personally, I think that the main problem of a lot of stores, at least quite a few I knew personally, is the people running it. Some stores run very well and you get into the store and know why - everything looks very organized, the layout looks good, some things are on display, staff is greeting you when coming in etc. In short: you immediately get the feeling that the store is taken care of. I call it the "parents / girlfriend check": would your parents / gf feel comfortable?
On the other hand, I have seen my share of stores that...weren't there for a long time and it's those "nerd cave stores". Chaotic look, dust on some stuff, staff is mainly busy watching YouTube videos, poor logistics..
Short anecdote on logistics:
Spoiler:
I recently visited an old friend of mine in another city who just started a club and wanted to get some advice. We were looking to get a KoW tournament going and I told him to keep a few spare player rulebooks ready in the club. We went to the LGS and he told us that he could order it in 1-2 weeks. Well, screw it, let's take two big books then, I'll cover the difference. Answer? 1-2 weeks. If you don't have the rulebook for a major gaming system in store, then you got poor logistics. We drove back and ordered 3 of them online that arrived 2 days later.)
...and the general feeling of " 'tis be a nerd store for nerds". This isn't what you want your customers to feel. Regulars are okay with that, but new ones ain't. A lof of wargamers aren't very extrovert guys and if you go into a store not knowing anyone and you get the nerd cave feel, you might feel intimitated by the atmosphere.
tl;dr: A well-run store that is run like an actual store instead of a hobby can still manage to survive. You will not earn a lot of money, but that's retail in general. Your customers are your customers, not your friends. Yes, you want them to be closer than a supermarket, no doubt, but you still gotta stay professional. Make them feel comfortable and welcomed, but make clear that your store cannot run on Facebook likes. You can only cure cancer with them.
Until the late 90s, I'd agree with FLGS being the center of attention. Nowadays? No. Interested in a game? Check games on YouTube. Flames of War does an awesome job at it - they got a really good tutorial series on YouTube.
Don't forget Hawk Wargames. Iirc, they only allow a 10% discount online as well. So, its really just this practice growing...
What? I didn't know that. Now I feel a little badly for supporting their kickstarter. I guess I'll make sure to wait until MMBF or Amazon blowouts instead of ordering their stuff at the flgs.
Why? They went to Kickstarter to Kickstart their Dropfleet Commander range, not to screw over stores and steel everyones money.
I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.
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Sidstyler wrote: He doesn't feel bad about giving them money via Kickstarter, he feels bad about not being able to get a big enough discount on the models when they hit retail.
So he basically doesn't give a crap about the FLGS in either case.
I buy more from my FLGS than I do online. And I don't even game there. I also post here about events and sales that bring them more custom. I support them because they treat me well and run a pleasant business. I'm not a part of the local gaming community and I owe local gamers nothing.
The attitude of a company makes a difference to me. I shop at Costco and not Walmart for a reason.
TalonZahn wrote: I'm always slightly confused by the FLGS vs. "Online" store arguments when it comes to the "resources" comparison.
I've been to the physical location of Miniatures Market. I have never in my life seen a "physical" hobby store with that much space or personnel. Their costs for lights, heat, A/C, employees, and all the other things mentioned, absolutely have to far out-strip any FLGS.
I'm guessing the response will be volume and variety is how they can cut so low, like say... Walmart.
I'm also aware that there are some online discounters that are 1-2 man operations. The big movers and shakers in the online space are not these guys.
I also believe it's Battlefront (?) that requires anyone selling onlien to have a physical store to sell their products. PP could move to something like that, which will levle the field more, and in a more sensible way.
With all due respect, costs are regional.
This.
An online retailer, can rent a warehouse that is in the middle of nowhere; a FLGS has to be accessible and central. This always costs more.
Has anyone considered the fact that maybe people in San Francisco, New York and other stupidly expensive places to live, arent OWED a place to go play as some kind of inalienable right? That maybe a business model should really just be left to die in some places where it's prohibitively expensive? Trying to keep a FLGS in certain places is like growing fruit trees in Death Valley.
An online retailer can work during any hours he pleases; a FLGS has to work during precise working hours, and often sacrifice Saturdays and Sundays for the sake of events, thus wages go up. This always (you guessed it!) costs more.
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
And btw, apologies but I fail to follow, where exactly would you host these events in, with e.g. 50 people and, I don't know, let's say Paris, if all FLGS are closed down? And who would run that event?
LOL, like most game stores could host 50 people events. I'd say you host them in banquet halls or something similar.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
It really is a waste. Unless it was the holidays or some release day that people HAD TO HAVE, the only reason to be open before 3 or so was to receive UPS shipments (aka 99% of our merchandise). Ask Brown if they can deliver later in the day and they will reply 'do you want your shipments at all?' So right there, that is 15ish hours/week that are essentially a money sink.
Whoa there, hold up - I meant their web forum, not the fact that they are an online retailer ... who passes no savings from circumventing the middle men on to their customers, by the way.
I know it doesn't sound like it but that's a good thing. It means GW is not trying to undercut thier retailers. However they have a few online only items they could discount if they wanted those products to move faster.
Thier online presence is also good right now with several fb pages up again. I don't think thier online presence diminished for any reason other then Kirby trying to cut costs off all non essential production personell.
Local Game Stores in the US vs Europe vs Clubs is apples and oranges honestly. I didn't even find out about clubs until I started promoting certain games which required a local game store to get the tournament kits unless you are in EU and then you could be a club. It was frustrating at times that we couldn't get access to them because we were in the US and it required a LGS. However it was something I had to work around.
Game clubs in the US have been around for awhile. Some of them have membership fees, others are just donations and some even rent their own gaming areas. There are a couple in Oregon that run that way. Lately I haven't been going weekly to the LGS, we've been doing gaming groups locally. That is mainly because we aren't growing our groups or gaming community, we focused on some other projects. I still set up demos times that I go to get interest in some of the games we play though.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: LOL, like most game stores could host 50 people events. I'd say you host them in banquet halls or something similar.
LGS just need to figure a means to offset costs that is why most focus on MtG or some TCG so they can run 153 player pre-releases and tournaments.
I'm just against the whole attitude. I bought the DZC starter from MM because the discount made it a must purchase. Since then, I have ordered a number of their resin products through the FLGS and paid MSRP because they weren't too expensive and I wanted to support the FLGS and HW. However, if they are engaged in price protectionism and dicking around with eretailers, then it makes a big difference to me. On principle, I would purchase all their products from deep dis counters or not at all. And during the Kickstarter, I advised a lot of people who were on the fence to wait for the retail discounts who might now not ever get into the game if those discounts never materialize. Now I look like a fool and Hawk Wargames looks greedy.
I don't think that's "FLGS must be saved!" protectionism like PP and FFG are trying to wrap themselves in. I think that's just their standard terms offered to everyone and doesn't preclude the offer of other incentives or sales. It's just the maximum "standard advertised discount" if you want to get things, online or B&M. This is not really any different than going to some big box store and see "price shown in cart" on an item because it's below MSRP and that's not allowed to be advertised by the manufacturer's trade terms.
While still mildly annoying, I find that less troublesome than people who say "this group can do A because we like them for <reasons>, but these other customers are scum so we're going to make them not do things we don't like." While the end result isn't terribly different, in the former at least everyone is treated equally "badly" (since doing business with a manufacturer, especially in wargaming, is always a choice) while another company is clearly playing favorites based on channel.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As a player I make the bulk of my purchases through the flgs to support it and help keep the doors open, along with a basic sense of fairness. Accordingly, my response to this is pretty much a shrug. It's their product, they can do what they want with it.
I think the fault lies with the hobby industry. After three years of painting miniatures, I'm buying individual bottles and realizing that the discount at the OLGS is negligible for a product under $10, especially if I pay for shipping. A retailer I spoke to long ago said $20 is the "impulse price" that customers will buy things at her store. This means that, as hobby games and miniatures have kept rising in price, FLGS have had essentially *fewer and fewer* items they can sell in their store. The FLGS here sells snacks, drinks, and individual dice as low-cost convenience items.
Magic the Gathering, of course, is sold in under-$5 packs, so that anyone who wants some cards NOW can pick them up at the FLGS at MSRP, but not at a price that saves them much were they to go to the OLGS for that pack. No doubt that's one of the reason every FLGS with table space supports Magic.
thats actually pretty interesting, the impulse buy price/threshold. I'm curious how they store owners I know in different regions and carrying a diverse product range would answer that. Some of the. Do the card games to pay the bills (interesting to me anyway as miniwargaming has a rival in how much its customers spend) . Thanks!
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Schmapdi wrote: They're not "axeing" anybody - reading the FAQ - it honestly just strikes me as a PR campaign to say "we love FLGS."
I mean - your store gets put on a secret list, that no one but PP can see, and your shipments get delayed. These things seem hard to prove.
And until it affects MM (which I doubt it will) I'm not too concerned.
i gotta hand it to them, that FAQ was a great post, anticipating questions. Obviously that's no panacea or end of questions coming their way but more than some companies would do.
I'm surprised no one's yet mentioned another aspect of this issue: manufacturers that limit the discount retailers can give their products but then themselves run a few sales throughout the year at larger discounts. I know of at least one that does that, and there are probably more.
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
That a nice assumption you've got there that almost everyone in this world works 9-5, monday to friday. They don't.
Crimson Devil wrote: Okay, so Games Workshop, Privateer Press, Battle Front, Mantic, and Hawk Wargames are all bad guys. What games do you guys actually play at this point? Which companies has met your purity tests?
FFG
Right now I am playing KoW in 15mm. Two of my armies (Twilight kin and Orcs/Gobbos) are from Splintered Light Miniatures. Which not only sells their 15mm figures at $8 for 12 minis, they donate 10% of every order to a group trying to combat child sex slavery/exploitation. That's pretty damn hipster, if you ask me.
Mantic wrote some frigging' awesome rules, just never get in on a Kickstarter with them. And I only deal with GW minis out of nostalgia for 1995-2000.
Why are game stores open during the day, unless it's summer break? That seems like a waste of resources when almost all your clientele is working or in school.
That a nice assumption you've got there that almost everyone in this world works 9-5, monday to friday. They don't.
Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
Stores could get their stuff delivered to the owner's home, and be open later, and stop wasting funds being open when they do next to no business.
What seems to be coming out of this thread, is that there are a lot of poor FLGS.
Getting funny looks for playing an unsupported game? Surely that's music to an owners ears! Wait, you want to buy stuff, and that might make people get into a game and also but stuff?
Our FLGS is always starting new games and systems, it's what keeps the meta fresh. And keeps my friend in cash.
The comments on MtG are strange. It's almost like some people have a line between tabletop and card, and none shall pass. MtG keeps the lights on for many a FLGS, it's easy to pick up, a good impulse buy and requires little space. I got into it as I saw a few playing, so now, I'll bring some Guildball or Warmahordes and slot a EDH or Standard deck in my box for a quick game.
This subject always divides people, for the simple fact that FLGS are usually very personal things to people. When they are good, they are a meeting place for friends, a social life for some, an escape for others. And when they are poop, they are all that's wrong with a hobby, an uncomfortable place you want to avoid.
Thank god mine is ace, because my local club is full of clique and unwelcoming members. And yeah, members in both senses!
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
I work night shift.
And are you by any means representative of the national/regional/local hobby scene?
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Most of them do. And if they dont, who the hell are they playing against at the store? I didnt know wargaming was so popular with the night shift crowd!
I work night shift.
I worked 3pm-11pm in manufacturing for years. Couldn't go to a store even if I had one near me. Worked retail even longer where shifts vary wildly and you rarely get a weekend day off. I have a hard time believing "most" people work 9-5 with weekends off these days, at least anywhere I've lived, when most of the jobs are either manufacturing or retail.
I know I have stopped by each of my "local" game stores (20 miles each way to either of them, in two opposite directions, lol) durinfg the day, and holy crap are they dead. Sometimes I am the only guy in the store, and one of them is half games/half comics, so then I am the only guy in half of the store.
From 3-8 are the big hours, as well as the obvious Saturday.
The current 
