Having looked at the rules for both armies, I have to say that it looks to me as if orks are still way below the 'power level' of the most popular army.
I'd say the last time orks were actually able to fight marines on a 'level playing field' was when our fourth edition codex was still new. Since then, marines have improved considerably while orks have if anything become weaker. Overall, I'd place the current balance at needing roughly a 40% advantage in points (e.g. 2,100 points of orks vs. 1,500 points of marines) to become balanced. So either marines should have been boosted in cost by about 40% after overall adjustments for the changes or orks should have become about 30% cheaper.
Overall changes that have helped orks:
Chargers striking first is a huge benefit for our assault units. Probably saves us at least a couple of wounds whenever we get the charge. I'd say that is worth a good 10-20% in overall effectiveness on optimal units.
Re-rolling failed charges is slightly better than re-rolling the worst dice, maybe worth another 3% or so?
Hidden unit leaders is a mixed bag, but I think slightly in our favour since we usually have more points in the unit leader. Call that 1-2% more?
Most small arms have no AP. A save of 6+ means about 18% fewer casualties. If half of our wounds are coming from such weapons, that's probably worth 5% added value (my logic for this is that a unit with twice the durability and twice the killing power is worth twice as much, a unit with one those qualities is worth <square root of two> times as much, so you take the square root of durability to see overall value).
Command points. We have slightly cheaper units than most, which means filling in more slots and claiming more CP. I estimate about 20% more, with an expected value of maybe 2% added to the unit.
Changes which have done little either way:
Command points are more available to armies with more units and we can take a lot of cheap units, but the stratagems seem less useful and the best detachments require a lot of troops and HQs and ours kind of suck.
New morale rules might seem good, but the mob rule only really offsets the penalties for being in large units to start with. Simply having fewer than five models is the best insurance against morale losses and not many of our units can do that. Relative to marines, who are basically still immune to morale, I don't think we can consider this an advantage.
No bonus attack for pistols or charging. Obviously this cuts down the number of attacks orks can make, but it affects most enemies more because they lack the large number of base attacks. I'm going to say it's overall neither good nor bad because it slows down combat which means enemy units have more opportunities to fall back or shoot with pistols.
Changes that have hurt orks:
Penalties to hit are now fairly common, mostly replacing snap shots. This has left us in basically the same position when shooting at flyers and firing heavy weapons on the move while all other armies are two or three times better. Even worse, things which didn't give a penalty to hit before now do so, like smoke launchers, tau stealth systems and so on. This is horrific for many of our shooting units, probably worth a 10-20% drop in their value.
Cover. This is huge. First you need to be entirely within or touching terrain to benefit, so it''s harder for large units to use. You can no longer claim cover from other units. Then you only get +1 to your save, which is typically going to result in a 5+ save for orks which is worse than the 4+ we got from most cover before. Finally heavy weapons can now punch through cover, so we only get 6+ against heavy bolters when we used to get 4+. This gives most ork infantry maybe half to two-thirds the resistance to shooting they did in the previous edition. That means they should have a 33% drop in cost to compensate.
Changes that have helped marines:
Cover. Most marine units now get 2+ saves in cover against most ork weapons. That's twice the durability (and therefore worth about a 20-40% increase in value, depending on how easy it is for marines to claim cover). In order to keep up, orks would need to drop in price by about 20%.
Combining all those estimates, I get 1.15*1.03*1.02*1.05*1.02*0.9*0.77*0.8 or about 0.7. That means that just to account for the change from 7th to 8th edition orks should have dropped in price by 30% relative to marines. Adding my estimate of the existing difference in power, it seems like they should cost about half as much.
Needless to say this isn't what has happened. Shoota boys dropped cost by about 20% (10 boys with one big shoota and a nob) while tactical marines dropped by about 16% (five marines, sergeant, plasma gun).
Looking at the units in the index, the following strike me as still competitive:
Kommandos, because you can get a nob and two burnas at no cost, making a unit of five half what it was in 7th edition.
Lobbas and Kustom Mega Kannons. Lobbas are improved by hitting on BS now and KMKs benefit from the new 'blast' rules allowing them to get a couple of hits on big targets while their durability has not been nerfed enough to make them really vulnerable. These were starting from the position of being the only overpowered unit in the codex before, mind you and are less good than they were.
Gretchin and Runtherds. Filling out troops slots with really cheap units helps even more in 8th edition.
Deffkoptas. They were good before and they are good now. Extra wounds help deal with high-damage weapons, bombs are (confusingly) free and extremely deadly, spinning blades are OK, reliable outflanking helps a lot.
Blitza Bommas. 50% of your unit taking a mortal wound is very, very nasty. Weirdly effective against infantry.
I am a little sad at the ork armies but at the same time the vast majority of my army was made up of Deff Dreads, Kans. Which I'm pretty happy with. Dread can now group up into one Unit which means I can have a pretty sleek detachment without having to awkwardly fit a smaller one in. They also get more attacks, better rocket launchas and a nice 3+ save. But I do see a lot of problems with the Boyz, which is why I'm going to try and stick to 30-40 boyz only and focus my points on more heavier and survivable stuff.
I did just buy myself 3 Deff Kopters and a Bltza Bomma just before the rules were announced (I won them on ebay) so I was pretty happy when i saw them rule changes and saw how useful they can now be.
Its too early to call for me but there sure are a lot of nerfs that make me sad at first glance. It might be a net positive from our previous codex is sure doesn't seem close to the 4th edition one.
I think the old er we go was slightly better actually. roll 2 dice and reroll 1 meant you can keep 1. say you need a charge over 7 inches suddenly keeping the highest and rerolling the other one seems more useful. say you need an 8 and roll a 7 (average) keep the 4 and 50% chance to get the 4+ for the 8 inches vs 50% chance of 7 or under
This is within your power to check, you don't have to compare by feel. Just grab the below sheet, all of the math is already done, just enter your values and the targets values, and you can get the units efficiency vs that style of target. Compare that your opponents to figure out how your offense compares. I think you'll find orks have a very efficient offense, which is offset by being relatively fragile per model.
I dunno, I haven't read the ork leaks yet, but deepstriking a full unit of shootas in your face with no scatter doesn't sound like something I want to be on receiving end of XD
G00fySmiley wrote: I think the old er we go was slightly better actually. roll 2 dice and reroll 1 meant you can keep 1. say you need a charge over 7 inches suddenly keeping the highest and rerolling the other one seems more useful. say you need an 8 and roll a 7 (average) keep the 4 and 50% chance to get the 4+ for the 8 inches vs 50% chance of 7 or under
I would agree.... tbh though, I've been really down on the main thread and a lot of people have yelled at me because a lot of factions got nerfed. I know Necrons are crying over their reanimation and weapons (even though I see getting a -1 AP and infinite reanimation if you keep the unit as OP) they don't see it as that. As a newer Ork player and literally playing a game today where I had no power to change the outcome, I'm kinda happy about 8th and can't wait to see it. But no... today was the worst... I had two dreadnoughts and 4 killa kans and I perfectly lined them up and got everything tactically correct and somehow he defeated them all with perfect pens on first turn and I was screwed... In the new edition, not only are pens and booms gone, we can actually hit first and use real tactics!
The casualties removal from the back is uge as is the buffs in units instead of models. Its just that I have 0 interest in building up a horde army again. My old 5th horde army is still not fully painted . The other changes in the other builds are too complex for me to guess if they are really improved or not. They look weak compared to other units such as SM dreads or imp knights but we will have to see.
I dunno, I also play CSM and White Scars. Orks seem to have gotten better, while my other 2 armies got worse. I play Trukks and Lootaz. Trukks are tougher, explosions will only kill d3 boyz max, and we gained str! Lootaz seem unchanged, with a 3 pt hike, but im fine with that. Sticking 4 units of 5 in a Battlewagon is gonna be a neat dirty trick.
Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.
For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.
BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.
Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.
You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.
jcd386 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.
For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.
BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.
Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.
You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.
Yeah but try and show up to an organized event with a limited amount of time per game with hundreds and hundreds of models, there's a limit to what is practical. Not to mention, if tournaments don't curb the absurd split fire, anyone with a tonne of models can bog the game down to a crawl if they want.
jcd386 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.
For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.
BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.
Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.
You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.
Yeah but try and show up to an organized event with a limited amount of time per game with hundreds and hundreds of models, there's a limit to what is practical. Not to mention, if tournaments don't curb the absurd split fire, anyone with a tonne of models can bog the game down to a crawl if they want.
Agreed, but there are ways to play faster, and you can always mechanize with the remaining points. My point is that i think a lot of armies will have an issue with hordes, and ork boyz are very cheap, and better than the previous editions.
Also it's hard to slow play when you only have 15 or so units in your army as a space marine. Split fire is cool, but i don't think it will actually slow the game down too much. And if you ever think another player is slow playing, talk to a TO.
Warbuggies and Wartrakks are now viable to shoot at tanks/infantry and then tie up backline units in assault even in the same turn.
If you are able to select the right targets to assault, you can essentially float them away from being shoot at if you are a smart player
Their weapons fire twice the rounds they used to, increasing the upper limit and average damage output.
Essentially they have tripled maybe even quadrupled their effective output in the game.
Double the shooting, Added assault ability, Added ability to prevent units from shooting. Pretty awesome utility units now. Throw in Flanking for the win...
And conversely to counter what they do, units with pistols have a revenge mechanism if they survive into next round of combat, creating a nuance mechanic where it is better to assault units without pistols...
jcd386 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.
For example, I but together a BA list at 2000 points that is 30 marines (15 devastators and 15 tacs), 10 Death Co, Lemartes, 6 bikes, 2 dreads, and 3 razorbacks. Thats it. And i think it's a pretty good list.
BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.
Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.
You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.
Yeah but try and show up to an organized event with a limited amount of time per game with hundreds and hundreds of models, there's a limit to what is practical. Not to mention, if tournaments don't curb the absurd split fire, anyone with a tonne of models can bog the game down to a crawl if they want.
Given that templates are no longer a thing, and KFF mechanics require units to fit inside a bubble, movement trays are going to be the easy solution.
I've been waiting so long to use movement trays to speed up horde games.
Anyway I am liking newhammer 8th. The mechanics are more nuanced and varied despite many simplifcations in the game. The problem with 3-7th edition was stupid all or nothing mechnics that were band-aided in an unwieldly manner to add nuance but only ended up failing and turning into power creep or useless crap.
Perfect Organism wrote: Having looked at the rules for both armies, I have to say that it looks to me as if orks are still way below the 'power level' of the most popular army.
I'd say the last time orks were actually able to fight marines on a 'level playing field' was when our fourth edition codex was still new. Since then, marines have improved considerably while orks have if anything become weaker. Overall, I'd place the current balance at needing roughly a 40% advantage in points (e.g. 2,100 points of orks vs. 1,500 points of marines) to become balanced. So either marines should have been boosted in cost by about 40% after overall adjustments for the changes or orks should have become about 30% cheaper.
Overall changes that have helped orks:
Chargers striking first is a huge benefit for our assault units. Probably saves us at least a couple of wounds whenever we get the charge. I'd say that is worth a good 10-20% in overall effectiveness on optimal units.
Re-rolling failed charges is slightly better than re-rolling the worst dice, maybe worth another 3% or so?
Hidden unit leaders is a mixed bag, but I think slightly in our favour since we usually have more points in the unit leader. Call that 1-2% more?
Most small arms have no AP. A save of 6+ means about 18% fewer casualties. If half of our wounds are coming from such weapons, that's probably worth 5% added value (my logic for this is that a unit with twice the durability and twice the killing power is worth twice as much, a unit with one those qualities is worth <square root of two> times as much, so you take the square root of durability to see overall value).
Command points. We have slightly cheaper units than most, which means filling in more slots and claiming more CP. I estimate about 20% more, with an expected value of maybe 2% added to the unit.
Changes which have done little either way:
Command points are more available to armies with more units and we can take a lot of cheap units, but the stratagems seem less useful and the best detachments require a lot of troops and HQs and ours kind of suck.
New morale rules might seem good, but the mob rule only really offsets the penalties for being in large units to start with. Simply having fewer than five models is the best insurance against morale losses and not many of our units can do that. Relative to marines, who are basically still immune to morale, I don't think we can consider this an advantage.
No bonus attack for pistols or charging. Obviously this cuts down the number of attacks orks can make, but it affects most enemies more because they lack the large number of base attacks. I'm going to say it's overall neither good nor bad because it slows down combat which means enemy units have more opportunities to fall back or shoot with pistols.
Changes that have hurt orks:
Penalties to hit are now fairly common, mostly replacing snap shots. This has left us in basically the same position when shooting at flyers and firing heavy weapons on the move while all other armies are two or three times better. Even worse, things which didn't give a penalty to hit before now do so, like smoke launchers, tau stealth systems and so on. This is horrific for many of our shooting units, probably worth a 10-20% drop in their value.
Cover. This is huge. First you need to be entirely within or touching terrain to benefit, so it''s harder for large units to use. You can no longer claim cover from other units. Then you only get +1 to your save, which is typically going to result in a 5+ save for orks which is worse than the 4+ we got from most cover before. Finally heavy weapons can now punch through cover, so we only get 6+ against heavy bolters when we used to get 4+. This gives most ork infantry maybe half to two-thirds the resistance to shooting they did in the previous edition. That means they should have a 33% drop in cost to compensate.
Changes that have helped marines:
Cover. Most marine units now get 2+ saves in cover against most ork weapons. That's twice the durability (and therefore worth about a 20-40% increase in value, depending on how easy it is for marines to claim cover). In order to keep up, orks would need to drop in price by about 20%.
Combining all those estimates, I get 1.15*1.03*1.02*1.05*1.02*0.9*0.77*0.8 or about 0.7. That means that just to account for the change from 7th to 8th edition orks should have dropped in price by 30% relative to marines. Adding my estimate of the existing difference in power, it seems like they should cost about half as much.
Needless to say this isn't what has happened. Shoota boys dropped cost by about 20% (10 boys with one big shoota and a nob) while tactical marines dropped by about 16% (five marines, sergeant, plasma gun).
Looking at the units in the index, the following strike me as still competitive:
Kommandos, because you can get a nob and two burnas at no cost, making a unit of five half what it was in 7th edition.
Lobbas and Kustom Mega Kannons. Lobbas are improved by hitting on BS now and KMKs benefit from the new 'blast' rules allowing them to get a couple of hits on big targets while their durability has not been nerfed enough to make them really vulnerable. These were starting from the position of being the only overpowered unit in the codex before, mind you and are less good than they were.
Gretchin and Runtherds. Filling out troops slots with really cheap units helps even more in 8th edition.
Deffkoptas. They were good before and they are good now. Extra wounds help deal with high-damage weapons, bombs are (confusingly) free and extremely deadly, spinning blades are OK, reliable outflanking helps a lot.
Blitza Bommas. 50% of your unit taking a mortal wound is very, very nasty. Weirdly effective against infantry.
A few things. The switch to the ap system was a massive buff to meganobs. Not only are they 3 wound and get to strike first with claws, but most importantly their armor is much much better. Before ap2 made them worthless, now ap2 = ap-3 which means you still get a 5+. The painboy looks like a sidegrade to start with him preventing wounds on a 6+, but he does it for all units near him. More importantly he heals multiwound models very easily This gives way more durability to bikers and nobs. Kustom force field also got a good boost. Beyond that the increased power of morale also gives some boost to the orks. Their charges are gonna hit hard and do a ton of damage and then more in the morale phase, and they have ample ways to mitigate their own morale problems. The transport change also helps them.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I dunno, I also play CSM and White Scars. Orks seem to have gotten better, while my other 2 armies got worse. I play Trukks and Lootaz. Trukks are tougher, explosions will only kill d3 boyz max, and we gained str! Lootaz seem unchanged, with a 3 pt hike, but im fine with that. Sticking 4 units of 5 in a Battlewagon is gonna be a neat dirty trick.
Lootas are even better due to shifts in core mechanics of the game. They have the utility of being able to sink wounds on all armour in the game.
Whereas before there was no utility whatsoever vs AV14.
I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...
And forget about my Ork Tidewall Shieldline, They restricted that one to Tau only. Shame, I had one converted up nicely.
Points saved on the ADL and the 'Ard Boyz might pay for the Trukk hike.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...
.
Yeah cover mainly benefits armoured guys now.... Its like dnd that first +1 AC doesn't do a thing but its a huge boon when you are already stacking on armour.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I just now realized, my age old tactic of Gone to Ground Lootaz on an Aegis is kinda done for. 6+save, improved to 5+, or 4+ GTG isnt worth the extra 75 pts...
.
Yeah cover mainly benefits armoured guys now.... Its like dnd that first +1 AC doesn't do a thing but its a huge boon when you are already stacking on armour.
Yeah that's one aspect that has me baffled, and not because it isn't in all honesty a more accurate representation of it should work, but it creates odd incentives like elite troops who are supposed to be armoured enough to stalk the open field and engage the enemy directly still finding more of an incentive to sit in cover and only provide fire support.
Just because I love orks, doesn't mean I will ever be happy for 6+ anything.
We won't actually know which armies are good/bad/ugly fpr at least a month after everything gets officially released and even then it won't fully settle for 2-3 months after that.
Sit back and enjoy the ride, the meta shakeout is the best part of the edition.
jcd386 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that points costs for marines went up a lot.
Marine vehicles went up in cost, but ork ones went up just as much or more. We used to get a rokkit buggy for 25 points, now it's 72.
jcd386 wrote: BUT, 41 marines, 6 bikes, and 5 tanks isn't a lot compared to the mass of models orks can bring to the table.
Mass of models?
Ork infantry die faster than an equivalent value in marine infantry to anything with AP 0 or 1. They have more physical models, but they get removed a lot faster.
Scout bikes cost the same as warbikers and are faster with more firepower.
Attack bikes are cheaper than buggies, but seem to be better in every way.
A razorback has only slightly less firepower and durability than a tooled-up battlewagon, but costs half the points.
Most of your units seem to be cheaper than the ork equivalent.
jcd386 wrote: Also, i think a lot of marines are going to be focusing on heavy weapons like Las Cannons, Plasma Cannons, and Plasma guns. Orks don't love those weapons, but they also don't lose that many guys to them. Also orks get their 6+ save now vs a lot of thing they didn't before.
You can have 90+ ork boys and 3 power claws for 615 points. I'm honestly not sure that a lot of marine armies could even handle that if they are set up to fight tanks etc. Not to mention the other 1400ish points of your army.
So, if you dedicate your list to nothing but anti-tank, you might struggle to kill infantry? What a shocker. Next you'll tell me that if you bring all anti-infantry weapons imperial knights will trample you.
630 points in HB devastators gets you 24 heavy bolters. That will easily chew through all the orks in three turns of shooting. Deploy them right and you will have at least that. Plus they are harder to kill themselves than 90 orks and can handle close combat so long as they aren't outnumbered by the time the orks arrive.
Yup, at the moment it looks like yet another edition of Orks getting boned while the Speese Mahreens and elves get all the good stuff.
The fact that the Rhino, which used to be MORE expensive then the Trukk just got cheaper while the Trukk just lost its one AMAZING ability is ridiculous.
Trukkz were good for one and only one reason. Open Topped/Assault Vehicle. Now every vehicle has this ability so now trukkz are just a more expensive Crappier version of a Rhino. (Rhinos are T7 10Wounds with a 3+ save, Trukkz are T6 10 Wounds with 4+ Save) GW just bent us over and fethed us for another edition....whats that 4 in a row now?
SemperMortis wrote: Yup, at the moment it looks like yet another edition of Orks getting boned while the Speese Mahreens and elves get all the good stuff.
The fact that the Rhino, which used to be MORE expensive then the Trukk just got cheaper while the Trukk just lost its one AMAZING ability is ridiculous.
Trukkz were good for one and only one reason. Open Topped/Assault Vehicle. Now every vehicle has this ability so now trukkz are just a more expensive Crappier version of a Rhino. (Rhinos are T7 10Wounds with a 3+ save, Trukkz are T6 10 Wounds with 4+ Save) GW just bent us over and fethed us for another edition....whats that 4 in a row now?
Do Trukks have any advantage over Rhinos? I'm also curious as how expensive our weapons are compared to other armies, do we get a price cut on them because of our BS? I'm starting to feel concerned
little-killer wrote: http://www.litko.net/products.php?product=Skirmish-Trays-for-25mm-Round-Bases-%28All-Patterns%29
Movement trays, if you have some link for cheaper movements trays don't hesitate to send it.
I think in v8 we will not play that much trukks, it will be BW and foot ork.
Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.
Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.
Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)
Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%
Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.
Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.
SemperMortis wrote: Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.
Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.
Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)
Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%
Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.
Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.
Eh eh eh, let's see some positive, the fnp from painboy affects all units with a model within 6" of the painboy.
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Trukkz were 30pts (and I considered them to be over priced) Rhinos were 35pts? cant remember. But yeah, also its 12pts to put a rokkit on it, so 88pts for a 1/3rd chance to hit something with a rokkit. Or to hit things with its incredible 3 attacks at S6.
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Like always, long live the imperium. Thanks again GW.
SemperMortis wrote: Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.
space marines rely on shooting much more than orks. sure their heavy weapon got buffed there but so did ours. Our units carry assault weapons almost universally... sure we probably wont hit with them, but we can take pot shots at things and still run up the board too. Combine this with the new waaagh, and your units can do Kunnin stuff like move+advance, shoot at something to the left, and then assault something up the middle. Not to mention that shootas is now free and if you don't take them you get to shoot while engaged in combat. Sure space marines are hitting more in the shooting phase, but they didnt get +1 str and what effectively amounts to initiative 10. They are also having to deal with morale for the first time in the history of 40k pretty much... Apples and oranges.
Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.
Orks never depended on saves to work, and I've never had a good time taking things like 'ardboys. The points I sunk into protecting the boys just made it hurt worse when I picked them up. Orks have a much better protection than they used to in that you can get inside of a trukk or wagon now if you loss averse. Used to be about half your boys died wen th trukk did, and they always died fast.
Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)
Again, orks are not a save army. Necrons are an army that tries to weather attrition by bulwarking against it. Orks throw numbers at their problems and leave the math to the opponent. The fact that those tools exist are nice, but if you start building lists that depend on them to work you will have a bad time because the lynchpins can be removed. Weight of numbers and speed cant be erased easily by the opponent.
Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%
Only if you compare them to the last version of the game. we are not playing 7th, we are playing 8th now. Everything went up in cost for every army, and comparing a warbikers cost to what it used to cost is kinda like trying to compare them to how much a certain spell costs in mtg. They are not the same game. Wait for a metal to start to show over the next 2-3 weeks.
Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.
Again, everything went up like this. You know what also happened to trukks? They became fast as hell now (they can move and then advance and still shoot), are more than twice as survivable, and suddenly went from killing about under 1/2 of the embarked passengers to killing 1/6th.
A trukk may cost a bit more than a rhino, but so far its like the only cheap transport in the game that can arm itself with CC weapons of any worth, has assault weapons for running and shooting, and if its near a warboss will be able to move, run shoot and charge all in the same turn. It also has 2 more seats than a rhino, and its open topped, so on the turn that you move, run shoot and assault, the duderz inside get to blast people their THEIR assault weapons.
Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.
Artillery was broken in the last edition. If I have to pay the price of my mek gunz being toned down slightly in order to have things like SM thunderfire canons act reasonably then I am happy to pay that price. Artillery is still fun to play
space marines rely on shooting much more than orks. sure their heavy weapon got buffed there but so did ours. Our units carry assault weapons almost universally... sure we probably wont hit with them, but we can take pot shots at things and still run up the board too. Combine this with the new waaagh, and your units can do Kunnin stuff like move+advance, shoot at something to the left, and then assault something up the middle. Not to mention that shootas is now free and if you don't take them you get to shoot while engaged in combat. Sure space marines are hitting more in the shooting phase, but they didnt get +1 str and what effectively amounts to initiative 10. They are also having to deal with morale for the first time in the history of 40k pretty much... Apples and oranges.
We already had Waaagh as a rule, now its even worse because everyone has to be within 6in of that warboss for it to work. We got +1 strength hooray the world is ours! We also lost the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons and we possibly lost the bonus attack for charging so overall we lost CC Ability. And SMs got the same "initiative 10" that we did so long as they charge, and im pretty sure their movement is better then ours so they have a decent chance to pull it off. As far as heavy weapons? Yeah lets talk about heavy weapons. ALL OF OUR BLAST WEAPONS SUCK NOW. ALL OF THEM! let me spell that out for you. We now have to roll to hit for blast weapons so no longer can we rely on scattering to get us at least 3-4 hits. KillKannon now fires D6 shots, which is terribly because even if you roll a 6 that means your only hitting twice on average. Realistically its going to hit once per turn and cost MORE THEN A LASCANNON. Even though its both weaker, shorter ranged and has less AP then the lascannon. Or how about the tried and true Lobba? Yup that sucks as well. Or we have the weapons on our beloved Stompa, ALL ARE GARBAGE NOW.
Orks never depended on saves to work, and I've never had a good time taking things like 'ardboys. The points I sunk into protecting the boys just made it hurt worse when I picked them up. Orks have a much better protection than they used to in that you can get inside of a trukk or wagon now if you loss averse. Used to be about half your boys died wen th trukk did, and they always died fast.
you bet your butt we depended on saves. We just had to pay more and be more kunning to get them. Hiding boyz in terrain, taking 1-3 Painboyz in multiple detachments that kind of thing. All of our saves got significantly worse against most of the weapons in this game....except for bolters, ohh thank god for that miracle. Trukkz are more durable now, as you pointed out, twice as durable. FOR MORE THEN TWICE THE COST. in the same way that a Landraider became significantly more durable but dropped in price.
Again, orks are not a save army. Necrons are an army that tries to weather attrition by bulwarking against it. Orks throw numbers at their problems and leave the math to the opponent. The fact that those tools exist are nice, but if you start building lists that depend on them to work you will have a bad time because the lynchpins can be removed. Weight of numbers and speed cant be erased easily by the opponent.
Really? What kind of 2nd Grade meta do you live in? Ive played more games where all my trukkz Die turn 1 and most of my Warbikers get liquidated turn 1-2. Ive also stopped playing green tide because its both boring and because all my opponents know how to counter it easily, not even mentioning the fact that Eldar and SM can literally just remove it from play before it gets across the table.
Only if you compare them to the last version of the game. we are not playing 7th, we are playing 8th now. Everything went up in cost for every army, and comparing a warbikers cost to what it used to cost is kinda like trying to compare them to how much a certain spell costs in mtg. They are not the same game. Wait for a metal to start to show over the next 2-3 weeks.
This has to be the dumbest argument possible. What else do you compare them to? 8th edition orks are compared to 7th edition orks, which were compared to 4-6th edition orks (we didnt get a codex for 5th or 6th).
You are right that everything went up in cost, except from what ive seen, Ork prices have gone up HIGHER then similar units in other armies. Trukkz are 6pts more expensive then Rhinos when before they were 5 points cheaper. Stompas, the most over priced POS thing in the game went up in price drastically. I can keep going but its ridiculous.
Again, everything went up like this. You know what also happened to trukks? They became fast as hell now (they can move and then advance and still shoot), are more than twice as survivable, and suddenly went from killing about under 1/2 of the embarked passengers to killing 1/6th.
A trukk may cost a bit more than a rhino, but so far its like the only cheap transport in the game that can arm itself with CC weapons of any worth, has assault weapons for running and shooting, and if its near a warboss will be able to move, run shoot and charge all in the same turn. It also has 2 more seats than a rhino, and its open topped, so on the turn that you move, run shoot and assault, the duderz inside get to blast people their THEIR assault weapons.
Actually Trukkz became slower, and less useful for alpha strike assaults. Move 6, disembark 6, run D6 charge 2D6. Now? its disembark, move run assault. So yeah, slower. and they already ignored moving and shooting rules because they were fast vehicles. And unless that warboss is on a bike or in the trukk it won't be nearby. Again, we could do all of this already. You literally wasted an entire paragraph explaining that trukkz remained exactly the same as last edition (with the notable 8th changes like armor/WS/Attacks) but are now worse in almost every way possible compared to a Rhino, and yet the rhino is still cheaper.
Artillery was broken in the last edition. If I have to pay the price of my mek gunz being toned down slightly in order to have things like SM thunderfire canons act reasonably then I am happy to pay that price. Artillery is still fun to play
Artillery was broken for us? really? Again what kind of meta do you play in where Mek Gunz were Broken? the only thing that made mek gunz good was their durability which is now in the dumpster, on fire. Artillery will not be fun to play because they will die the first time someone sneezes at them.
To summarize all that ive seen so far. GW Took away all our fun randomness things that made the army interesting, then they took away our CC ability and now this edition they are FORCING US to play a footslogging horde style army because theyve effectively nerfed EVERYTHING ELSE in our codex into uselessness.
It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.
I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.
Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.
gnome_idea_what wrote: It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.
Are our bikes any good? I haven't checked.
where did you get any of that info?
Battlewagons cost 50% then before and while they are more survivable they suck even more so. giving them Rokkitz costs almost 50pts and the Lobba/KillKannon are useless.
Flash gitz? 27pts for a T4 2wound model with a 6+ save?
Marmatag wrote: I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.
Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.
I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.
I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem
I will be proud of my 70 points of walking 4th of July Celebrations even if they are overcosted
Also the majority of the issue people have seems to be with vehicle costs, but that has happened across the board with everyone else. As for bare-bones comparisons, remember that most of these vehicles are support units, not front liners.
I think infantry-heavy armies will be the new thing with this edition.
Marmatag wrote: I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.
Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.
I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.
I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem
Tau would beg to disagree. A LOT. And I don't play them.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I will be proud of my 70 points of walking 4th of July Celebrations even if they are overcosted
Also the majority of the issue people have seems to be with vehicle costs, but that has happened across the board with everyone else. As for bare-bones comparisons, remember that most of these vehicles are support units, not front liners.
I think infantry-heavy armies will be the new thing with this edition.
Well since tactical Marines got cheaper and Boyz stayed the same I would have to agree. I'm calling it right now, orks are bottom tier for another fething edition. Honestly im fed up with this utter nonsense. All of our shooting just got worse and our CC didn't get much better.
First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)
Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.
Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.
As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...
Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...
Pedroig wrote: First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)
Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.
Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.
As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...
Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...
Wrong across the board.
Rhinos had a set price, broken formations were that issue so whatever.
Trukkz are better at CC? Ohh lordy, 3 S6 attacks hitting on 5s. Better watch out! What do Rhinos have 3 S6 attacks hitting on 6s?
Yes we did lose +1 attacks, im sorry you cant comprehend this but you are wrong. Just because they
"buffed" Choppas, doesnt mean they didn't take that bonus away. And if you are clumping your army together like that and abusing the system, hey thats fine thats up to you. For me? it would be boring and hard to figure out where one unit of boyz ends and another begins. And keep in mind that your opponent can effectively hide on the other 2/3rds of the map you aren't bothering to contest.
Orks do have saves, orks do shoot, orks dont get that much faster then anyone else, and are slower then some, orks suck at CC. Maybe this edition will be different but hte last 4 have said otherwise.
Pedroig wrote: .Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...
Lol, jup orks are 100% SPEAD FREAKS thats why they have M5.
I think the fact that Trukks can now tie up other squads in combat to deny them shooting is a potential reason why their point cost went up.
Orks don't seem totally fantastic to me - I think they're likely to get a lot more benefits out of their codex rules than their index lists - but they seem at least in line with the existing rules, plus a few nice quality of life buffs like natural S4. I'm also probably not as bothered because I plan to play with power levels so having to pay for equipment isn't going to bloat things.
I do think a horde of boyz, organized in waves and sprinkled with buff characters and supported by fast elements to tie down the front line, will do fine and feel good to play even if it's not top tier competitive.
Pedroig wrote: .Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...
Lol, jup orks are 100% SPEAD FREAKS thats why they have M5.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Kommandos seem better nowadays. Free Nob and free Burnas. Might just to kit bash a few more outbox those burna bitz from all my lootaz!
Marmatag wrote: I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.
Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.
I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.
I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem
Tau would beg to disagree. A LOT. And I don't play them.
i have / play tau and have / play orks... looking at the points the tau went up too but not at the same scale orks did
Tau were also considered to be Top Tier while Orks were considered to be bottom tier. So if anything we should have seen orks getting either way more buffs or at the least, significantly smaller increases in price compared to other factions.
Pedroig wrote: First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)
Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.
Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.
As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...
Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...
Wrong across the board.
Rhinos had a set price, broken formations were that issue so whatever.
Trukkz are better at CC? Ohh lordy, 3 S6 attacks hitting on 5s. Better watch out! What do Rhinos have 3 S6 attacks hitting on 6s?
Yes we did lose +1 attacks, im sorry you cant comprehend this but you are wrong. Just because they
"buffed" Choppas, doesnt mean they didn't take that bonus away. And if you are clumping your army together like that and abusing the system, hey thats fine thats up to you. For me? it would be boring and hard to figure out where one unit of boyz ends and another begins. And keep in mind that your opponent can effectively hide on the other 2/3rds of the map you aren't bothering to contest.
Orks do have saves, orks do shoot, orks dont get that much faster then anyone else, and are slower then some, orks suck at CC. Maybe this edition will be different but the last 4 have said otherwise.
You seem to be in a pissy mood...
If basically everyone was using said formations, then in reality transports cost 0 for SM, and nobody Iknew used free Rhinos, they used free Razorbacks or Droppods instead.
Base attack before was 2, base attack now is 2, where is the lost attack? EVERYONE lost the 2 CCW +1 attack, yet every army has some CCW which gives +1 attack. Tell ya what, why don't you tell us how many attacks a Boy with a Big Choppa gets in 7th, and then how many attacks it gets in 8th? That is simple math, and seemingly too complicated on relative comparatives.
What other 2/3rds, can cover 72" with two units of Boyz and/or Grots, with room to spare. As far as colour scheming to keep unit straight, seems to work for professional sport teams... And how is clumping abusing the system? It has bonuses and penalties, just like spreading out does, and going in between does.
Truckk WS 5+ BS 5+ S 6/5/4 A 3/d3/1 M 12/8/6 Rhino WS 6+ BS 3/4/5 S 6 A 3/d3/1 M 12/6/3 better in CC worse in Shooting, though Open Topped may even that out a bit, depends what's in the Trukk
Paint your Ork vehicles red, they then go faster, not further. (and if you still think this is a serious comment...)
Please explain HOW Orks "suck at CC"? They can effectively "charge" from 17" away now, on foot, with a morale of up to 30, They now hit in CC on a 3+ ALL the time. Vehicles, ALL of the vehicles can now Charge and engage in CCW as well, soaking up Overlook shots while they are at it.
We already had Waaagh as a rule, now its even worse because everyone has to be within 6in of that warboss for it to work. We got +1 strength hooray the world is ours! We also lost the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons and we possibly lost the bonus attack for charging so overall we lost CC Ability. And SMs got the same "initiative 10" that we did so long as they charge, and im pretty sure their movement is better then ours so they have a decent chance to pull it off. As far as heavy weapons? Yeah lets talk about heavy weapons. ALL OF OUR BLAST WEAPONS SUCK NOW. ALL OF THEM! let me spell that out for you. We now have to roll to hit for blast weapons so no longer can we rely on scattering to get us at least 3-4 hits. KillKannon now fires D6 shots, which is terribly because even if you roll a 6 that means your only hitting twice on average. Realistically its going to hit once per turn and cost MORE THEN A LASCANNON. Even though its both weaker, shorter ranged and has less AP then the lascannon. Or how about the tried and true Lobba? Yup that sucks as well. Or we have the weapons on our beloved Stompa, ALL ARE GARBAGE NOW.
waagggh is leagues better than it was before barring the stupid formation that let you do it every turn; its both fluffy and creates tangible threats all game now.
We didnt lose our +1 attack for two close combat weapons mate, or did you fail to realize that orks pretty much across the board come with what ammounts to a chainsword?
Marines did get the same I10 that we got, but they dont want to be assaulting people, they want to be shooting them. They also lack the fancy tools we have to get into combat more easily. Again you're hitting apples and oranges.
Our blast weapons are different now, they don't suck. Our shooting sucks, and it should because we have a stupid amount of it and the focus is more on CC. We suck at shooting yes, but what do you want, cheap troops that can shoot well, have assault shenanigans and maybe a good save? All at once? Ballance is a two way street.
and yes, the killkannon isnt super great, especially when you compare it to a lascannon held by a marine.... But its even worse when you compare it to a railgun... Because orks arent meant to be a formidable gunline; they're meant to shoot downfield as they barrel downwards. As you said, 1-2 hits if you roll a six.... that's fair for its points and considering that just behind it is likely to be a deffrolla thats going to chew on stuff.
you bet your butt we depended on saves. We just had to pay more and be more kunning to get them. Hiding boyz in terrain, taking 1-3 Painboyz in multiple detachments that kind of thing. All of our saves got significantly worse against most of the weapons in this game....except for bolters, ohh thank god for that miracle. Trukkz are more durable now, as you pointed out, twice as durable. FOR MORE THEN TWICE THE COST. in the same way that a Landraider became significantly more durable but dropped in price.
You bet your own butt, you can't just scream something louder as a recourse against being told you're wrong. Hiding boys in terrain didn't work and ardboy armor was way overcosted for what it gave. It was almost always better to bulk up the blobs (or get more of them) than it was to kit the ones you already had out.
Landraiders NEEDED to be buffed bigtime. No one was fielding them because they cost more than anything else in the codex and ammounted to two cheap lazcannon potshots a game. If you do some math too btw, you'll find that they went UP in points considering you now have to pay to arm them.
Really? What kind of 2nd Grade meta do you live in? Ive played more games where all my trukkz Die turn 1 and most of my Warbikers get liquidated turn 1-2. Ive also stopped playing green tide because its both boring and because all my opponents know how to counter it easily, not even mentioning the fact that Eldar and SM can literally just remove it from play before it gets across the table.
so you insult the people I play with as an opener and then go on to admit that all of your trukks died immediately? I hate playing green tide too, and am excited that my trukks will take some focus fire to put down suddenly, rather than a single pot shot from all the heavy weapons my opponent has fielded completely de-meching me in one turn. Sure trukks cost more than double what they did, but you know that drop pods now cost three times what they did before? things are revamped, the new costs are mean to reflect what they bring to the army. What kind of time travelling meta are YOU part of that you know this is already wrong without having seen anyone play?
This has to be the dumbest argument possible. What else do you compare them to? 8th edition orks are compared to 7th edition orks, which were compared to 4-6th edition orks (we didn't get a codex for 5th or 6th).
Its not a dumb argument at all, What you compare them to is the other armies in 8th. Since there are no games yet to give us that data, you hold off on making the comparison. Saying that orks are broken now having just seen some of their rules in a vacuum is like saying you know a cookie is going to be bad because you say someone put baking soda into the recipe, and you know 100% for sure that baking soda tastes bad when you eat it with a spoon.
You are right that everything went up in cost, except from what I've seen, Ork prices have gone up HIGHER then similar units in other armies. Trukkz are 6pts more expensive then Rhinos when before they were 5 points cheaper. Stompas, the most over priced POS thing in the game went up in price drastically. I can keep going but its ridiculous.
Higher than comparable prices? Base transport for troops then again? because the drop pod saw a 300%+ increase in price mate. Comparing what things cost across different codices is bad practice.... A lascannon in the ork codex would worth way less than it is in the space marine codex, because of the ability to shoot and carry it around the table. Similarly, a transport for basic troops that has a capacity of 12 rather than 10 in the space marine codex wouldn't be all that good because they don't have squads that take up 12 models.
Actually Trukkz became slower, and less useful for alpha strike assaults. Move 6, disembark 6, run D6 charge 2D6. Now? its disembark, move run assault. So yeah, slower. and they already ignored moving and shooting rules because they were fast vehicles. And unless that warboss is on a bike or in the trukk it won't be nearby. Again, we could do all of this already. You literally wasted an entire paragraph explaining that trukkz remained exactly the same as last edition (with the notable 8th changes like armor/WS/Attacks) but are now worse in almost every way possible compared to a Rhino, and yet the rhino is still cheaper.
They didn't ignore 'run' and shoot rules like they did now, and they are not slower either. 12 move, d6 'run', 2d6 assault for a total of potentially 30 on turn one, and now they don't die when they get looked at wrong, or kill as many boys when they do. Trukks are not worse in every way than a rhino, because unlike a rhino a trukk can carry 11 boys and a power Klaw into a gun-line. Rhinos cant carry that across the table. Again you're stuck on apples vs oranges. If you try to make an apple pie using oranges its going to be a really bad apple pie. If you insist that trukks are worse in EVERY way than a rhino, then why dont we see what happens when a rhino and a trukk with a ball are put in melee with each other? Or does your EVERY way have certain exclusions?
Artillery was broken for us? really? Again what kind of meta do you play in where Mek Gunz were Broken? the only thing that made mek gunz good was their durability which is now in the dumpster, on fire. Artillery will not be fun to play because they will die the first time someone sneezes at them.
Artillery was broken for EVERYONE. a T7 grot is absurd, particularly for how much they cost. Having that in the game is the dumpster fire. But that's aside from the point, I said they were broken. Orks benefited from it sure, but it was abused to high hell in other armies. The world exists outside of what directly affects orks you know, and a nerf on something broken that addresses absurd imbalance problems on other codices, is good for orks even if it clips the wings off an all star unit in the process. Big guns and mek guns are fair now IMO, and I'd be willing to bet that a game or two proves me right.
To summarize all that ive seen so far. GW Took away all our fun randomness things that made the army interesting, then they took away our CC ability and now this edition they are FORCING US to play a footslogging horde style army because theyve effectively nerfed EVERYTHING ELSE in our codex into uselessness.
No one is forcing you to play anything. No one will stomp on your models. You probably haven't played a single game yet, and you almost certainly have not been paying as close attention to the changes that other armies are goring through at the moment. Calm yourself man or you're going to poop. I'm certainly not going to play foot-horde, and you dont have to either. I've seen TONS of units im excited to field. Burnas look awesome, nobs are suddenly a threat even without mega armor, painboys zooming around on bikes saving people, and putting models back into blobs if they dont zoom. Naught's spilling masses of boys, trukks running stupid sprints turn one so they can hit things with a giant ball of spikes? Then dumping a party out in the other persons lines the next turn? No more being pinned? Nobs slapping boys that try to run away? Ammo runts handing off reloads and then not vanishing into the aether afterwards? DEFFROLLAS?!
gnome_idea_what wrote: It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.
Are our bikes any good? I haven't checked.
where did you get any of that info?
Battlewagons cost 50% then before and while they are more survivable they suck even more so. giving them Rokkitz costs almost 50pts and the Lobba/KillKannon are useless.
Flash gitz? 27pts for a T4 2wound model with a 6+ save?
Source: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724730.page It's in the linked drive folder.
Battlewagons do cost more and their weapon choices suck, but in an army with movement of 5, transports are probably going to be necessary to get things into range. Flash Gits got bumped up to BS4, their guns consistently do something, and ammo runts are actual models that don't get expended when they grant rerolls, count towards unit size for mob rule, but whose deaths don't count for morale. This makes Flash Gits even better at shooting things and slightly more resistant to morale, for just +4 ppm. It's expensive but might be worth it. The 6+ save sucks though, if nobs got boosted to 4+ then Gits should have been boosted too, it just makes more sense.
Whenever "the internet" reaches a conclusion on stuff before it is tested remember this bit of gold.
"WK aren't survivable enough, they need eternal warrior and a 2+ armour save at the least".
general consensus about WK on first release.
Bs wraithknight and scat bikes on release was that eldar would ruin everyone. In fact we instantly had kneejerk reactions to ban the eldar decorian from spamming wraithknights in tournaments.
Wraithknights were directly compared to knights and were much stronger and a lot cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now back on topic orks will be decent BUT specific builds which oddly is the same as 7th ed better builds.
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3-6 manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".)
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that. Ames the. Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.
Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!
Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.
Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.
Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.
The best of the trukk is the narrative game it could give.... Imagine the enemy throws a nuclear bomb over the trukk.... But after the explosion the trukk comes out from the nuclear mushroom dust with only a little dirty marks (the ork player was lucky with the special rule and it only suffer 1 damage instead 138865 from the the explosion XD)
But is true about the blast weapons. The change to x random hits instead the dispersion affects more negatively to orks than other races for evident reasons.
For example the killkanon do 1d6 shoots on 5+.... Bad as hell.
Also burnas maybe should had a point drop because keep a 6+ armor but their firepower drops a lot.... But we'll, not so bad as blast cases.
Also the argument of "is a cc army so weapons should be gak" is no valid on all units. Of course if an unit is good at melee, should shoot bad or normal. But on cases like the battlewagon and how much it cost, the killkanon should be way better.
I mean, any ork unit focused on shoot and with low cc capacity... Should be cheap as hell or shoot a really insane amount of shots
It looks like every army got kicked in the ass, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a nerf. In 7th edition this would have been the case but with the new rules everything is different. RIP 'ard boyz tho...
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.
Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!
Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.
Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.
Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.
Yeah you can shoot with 12 boyz with 12" that really makes the difference
People lamenting burna boys is kinda silly... EVERY single one of us went 'wooooah' when the rules to flamers were previewed and we all immediately thought about how OP burnas were going to be. I'd bet that the playtesters thought (and live though) the same thing. Giving them each a potential of 6 shots would have been CRAZY. heck we even have a meme before anyone played a game of them burning a helldrake out of the sky
Lots of people keep pleading that rhinos didnt get the bonus trukks did but the one thing that made trukks widely used was that they were assault vehicles, now with orks needing to assault the Rhino to destroy it with their long charge range the marines just wait inside and charge the turn they come out of the rhino being able to charge the turn marines come out of the rhino is huge and yes only marines can go in a rhino but there are so many different kinds of marines its a joke. Im not saying either is better but its impossible to guage what they will be like until we have all played every option on every unit, One thing i dont understand is the painboy not being able to revive models like an apothecary, yes they have a 6+ FNP roll which is great but i have as much chance of killing my biker or my nob when healing them. I feel that painboys and apothecaries shouldnt give a fnp, they should heal wounds or revive models. 4+ gives a marine or a biker or a warbiker back and maybe D3 normal boys. Rather than giving an FNP. What universal benefit that hurt orks the most I think is the heavy weapon movement reduction, in essence every army that isn't needing 5+ to hit got a bonus. In 7th when i had a good dice game in the shooting phases i usually won the game if my shooting was bad and didnt do enough damage early with softening targets i lost. I feel shooting will be weaker but pray the different assault phase will help the greenskins do a bit better
Ubl1k wrote: Lots of people keep pleading that rhinos didnt get the bonus trukks did but the one thing that made trukks widely used was that they were assault vehicles, now with orks needing to assault the Rhino to destroy it with their long charge range the marines just wait inside and charge the turn they come out of the rhino being able to charge the turn marines come out of the rhino is huge and yes only marines can go in a rhino but there are so many different kinds of marines its a joke. Im not saying either is better but its impossible to guage what they will be like until we have all played every option on every unit, One thing i dont understand is the painboy not being able to revive models like an apothecary, yes they have a 6+ FNP roll which is great but i have as much chance of killing my biker or my nob when healing them. I feel that painboys and apothecaries shouldnt give a fnp, they should heal wounds or revive models. 4+ gives a marine or a biker or a warbiker back and maybe D3 normal boys. Rather than giving an FNP. What universal benefit that hurt orks the most I think is the heavy weapon movement reduction, in essence every army that isn't needing 5+ to hit got a bonus. In 7th when i had a good dice game in the shooting phases i usually won the game if my shooting was bad and didnt do enough damage early with softening targets i lost. I feel shooting will be weaker but pray the different assault phase will help the greenskins do a bit better
Wrap around the rhino, if they can't legally disembark, everything inside dies.
I'm fairly ambivalent about the changes. It feels like everything that got better is better due to core game mechanic changes, not anything they did with the army. My main concern is the damage output we're going to have. It doesn't feel like most of our units are going to be able to munch through enemy units. Time will tell I guess....
Also, I just noticed that all of our units only have the Orks and <clan> faction keywords. Does that mean that we won't have access to allies since building an army is based of keywords now?
orkychaos wrote: I'm fairly ambivalent about the changes. It feels like everything that got better is better due to core game mechanic changes, not anything they did with the army. My main concern is the damage output we're going to have. It doesn't feel like most of our units are going to be able to munch through enemy units. Time will tell I guess....
Also, I just noticed that all of our units only have the Orks and <clan> faction keywords. Does that mean that we won't have access to allies since building an army is based of keywords now?
I think it only matters to each individual Detachment. So you can take one Battalion Ork Detachment, and one Patrol CSM detachment.
We just can't mix and match different factions in the same detachment like Imperials with each other and CSM with daemons. At least that's how I think it works. Still seems strange to have 2 guard unit, 1 space marine unit, 1 mechanicum elite, and sisters heavy all in one detachment but AFAIK, all legal now.
orkychaos wrote: I'm fairly ambivalent about the changes. It feels like everything that got better is better due to core game mechanic changes, not anything they did with the army. My main concern is the damage output we're going to have. It doesn't feel like most of our units are going to be able to munch through enemy units. Time will tell I guess....
Also, I just noticed that all of our units only have the Orks and <clan> faction keywords. Does that mean that we won't have access to allies since building an army is based of keywords now?
Yes it does. That being said, hopefully the unaligned keyword means we'll be seeing some mercenaries again. I'd love for Eldar Mercs, Ogryn Mercs, etc. to make their way back into 40k. It'd be the best way to bring back Squats too. Their homeworlds were eaten by Tyranids, but surely there are few clans left in the galaxy eking out a living as soldiers of fortune on choppers!
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.
Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!
Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.
Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.
Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.
ramshackle is a 17% chance as is repair, neither is something that can be relied upon. seems like shoehorning old rules in for fluff but on the table less helpful, but cool when it happens.
as for shooting out of the trukk lootas in the thing might be the best use for the thing, but our rank and file boys have a 2 shot 18" gun hitting on 5's (if 12 shootas then 8 hits) or single shot 12" hitting on 5's (4 hits) not exactly game changing but I do see the rhino appears to not be able to be shot out of.
a rokkit may be better than a storm bolter, but it has to hit on a 5+ so 1 hit every 3 turns on average for 6x the points. that one shot missle has a 2/3 chance to hit
painbody cannot go in a trukk unless he gets his own if i cam reading the rules right. he is not part of a unit.
trukk can do meganobz yes, rhinos only power armor. the manz missle levies on for another edition as one of our saving graces.
while I agree the toughness is less of a big deal the armor save is certainly worth noting.
orkychaos wrote: I'm fairly ambivalent about the changes. It feels like everything that got better is better due to core game mechanic changes, not anything they did with the army. My main concern is the damage output we're going to have. It doesn't feel like most of our units are going to be able to munch through enemy units. Time will tell I guess....
Also, I just noticed that all of our units only have the Orks and <clan> faction keywords. Does that mean that we won't have access to allies since building an army is based of keywords now?
I think it only matters to each individual Detachment. So you can take one Battalion Ork Detachment, and one Patrol CSM detachment.
We just can't mix and match different factions in the same detachment like Imperials with each other and CSM with daemons. At least that's how I think it works. Still seems strange to have 2 guard unit, 1 space marine unit, 1 mechanicum elite, and sisters heavy all in one detachment but AFAIK, all legal now.
it appears for narrative and open play yes you can mix detachments, but for match play you cannot, so da orks have no allies while the imperium gets to still go all super friends
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.
Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!
Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.
Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.
Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.
Lets all stop pretending anything is fair here. Rhino got nerfed sure, compare the trukk to the Raxorback... 100p for 12 S6 AP-1 shots at 3+ !
That is a killer and will destroy armies!!
The Trukk for about 90p has 1 S8 shot at 5+
A Trukk carries a minimum of 72p worth of boyz
A Razorback carries a minimum of 78p worth or marines
painbody cannot go in a trukk unless he gets his own if i cam reading the rules right. he is not part of a unit.
trukk can do meganobz yes, rhinos only power armor. the manz missle levies on for another edition as one of our saving graces.
You are not reading the rules correctly. A transport can carry a certain number of models on the approved list (by transport). They are NOT limited to carrying only one unit.
painbody cannot go in a trukk unless he gets his own if i cam reading the rules right. he is not part of a unit.
trukk can do meganobz yes, rhinos only power armor. the manz missle levies on for another edition as one of our saving graces.
You are not reading the rules correctly. A transport can carry a certain number of models on the approved list (by transport). They are NOT limited to carrying only one unit.
ooo that is cool then. can at least throw a warboss in the battlewagon still with boyz
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I will be proud of my 70 points of walking 4th of July Celebrations even if they are overcosted
Also the majority of the issue people have seems to be with vehicle costs, but that has happened across the board with everyone else. As for bare-bones comparisons, remember that most of these vehicles are support units, not front liners.
I think infantry-heavy armies will be the new thing with this edition.
Well since tactical Marines got cheaper and Boyz stayed the same I would have to agree. I'm calling it right now, orks are bottom tier for another fething edition. Honestly im fed up with this utter nonsense. All of our shooting just got worse and our CC didn't get much better.
Once outfitted the Tacticals are around the same points they were last edition as their guns either got worse (Grav) or more expensive. Looking at a Tac Squad with Melta gun, lascannon, Combi-melta and Powerfist is More expensive now 211 pts, vs 205 in 7e. Cannot use a rhino bunker to shoot out of, cannot get in melta range from a drop pod, and adding either makes them way more expensive than last edition. They also lost basically immunity to morale as a re-roll is no where near as good as ignoring the negative benefits for failing morale. So far they have also lost chapter tactics (if this comes out later we don't know for sure it will be free).
Losing the charge attack hurts tacticals more than boyz as it essentially halve their effectiveness in combat if they charge, and if charged they now swing last instead of benefiting from a decent initiative especially against things like orks. ON the charge against orks they used to kill 5 orks with this load out, not counting any shooting, and if charged they would kill 3.75 before the orks got to swing. Whereas now the Marines do 3.6 wounds total. A lost of 1.4 wounds
29 Orks with a PK nob against that same squad, would have had 116 attacks, + 4 powerklaw attacks killing 11.33, but the 4
dying drops it to 9.6667
Now The same squad gets 87 attacks + 3 Powerklaw attacks doing 10.06 wounds, . The boyz themselves do the exact same damage as before, because they hit on a 3+. SO no real loss for us (in fact realistically it is a gain of .4 wounds.)
The big difference now is in non charge rounds, boyz don't get worse, meaning a boy is now twice as good in non-charge rounds as he previously was a boy against MEQ in 7e did 1/6th of a wound in a non-charge round, now he does 1/3rd. In other words it used to take 6 boyz to reliably kill a single marine, now it takes 3. Comparitively it takes 4.8 marines to reliably kill a single ork.
Orks also got much faster in this edition due to reliable delivery methods. Kommandos, Deffkoptas, Warbuggies, Weirdboyz all can drop units right in your opponents face turn 1 and potentially get off a charge on multiple units while your other units move up for a turn 2 charge.
Kommandos, because you can get a nob and two burnas at no cost, making a unit of five half what it was in 7th edition.
.
Where are you getting a free nob? My assumption in all squads that can take a nob replacing another model that you need to pay the Nob cost for that model. I mean I would be thrilled if it is a free upgrade as it would save me about 60 points in the list I am working on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.
Did you not read the ramshackle and open-topped rules?
Marines can no longer shoot from a rhino.
Trukk hits on 5s. Rhino hits on 6s.
Rhino can repair 1 wound on a 6. Trukk can reduce damage by 1 on each and every attack on a 6.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I meant that Rhinos just became CHEAPER then Trukkz.
Did you not read the ramshackle and open-topped rules?
Marines can no longer shoot from a rhino. Trukk hits on 5s. Rhino hits on 6s. Rhino can repair 1 wound on a 6. Trukk can reduce damage by 1 on each and every attack on a 6.
Trukk is 6 points more and -1T.
Sounds fine to me.
Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....
Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.
And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.
The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.
Breng77 wrote: Where are you getting a free nob? My assumption in all squads that can take a nob replacing another model that you need to pay the Nob cost for that model. I mean I would be thrilled if it is a free upgrade as it would save me about 60 points in the list I am working on.
It seems like most of the units don't actually have a point cost associated with a sergeant upgrade (this is the same with Eldar Exarchs).
Crazyterran wrote: Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?
trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+
rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+
trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.
drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning
Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.
Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!
Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.
Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.
Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.
Lets all stop pretending anything is fair here. Rhino got nerfed sure, compare the trukk to the Raxorback... 100p for 12 S6 AP-1 shots at 3+ !
That is a killer and will destroy armies!!
The Trukk for about 90p has 1 S8 shot at 5+
A Trukk carries a minimum of 72p worth of boyz
A Razorback carries a minimum of 78p worth or marines
A trukk can be purchased for a 22 point Mek
A Razorback can be purchased for a minimum of 55 points of scouts.
But yes razorback spam might be an issue, though if it moves it fires at a 4+. It seems like 13 is the most I can fit into a 2000 point army. So that is 156 S6 AP -1 shots per turn. (not including the passengers but they have bolters essentially). It is pretty killy against anything T5 or less you are looking at 69 wounds per turn with AP -1. And 34 against anything T7 -T12. So it could hurt a lot. But that assumes nothing moves, they all have LOS, no cover, no saves etc. It would potentially be susceptible to anti-tank fire early though, and also to anything that can lock it in combat.
Breng77 wrote: Where are you getting a free nob? My assumption in all squads that can take a nob replacing another model that you need to pay the Nob cost for that model. I mean I would be thrilled if it is a free upgrade as it would save me about 60 points in the list I am working on.
Nah, he's free. Like all Sergeant upgrades, he doesn't have a points value. There is no "Boss Nob" in the points section, just like there is no "Veteran Sergeant" in the marines points table.
Breng77 wrote: Where are you getting a free nob? My assumption in all squads that can take a nob replacing another model that you need to pay the Nob cost for that model. I mean I would be thrilled if it is a free upgrade as it would save me about 60 points in the list I am working on.
It seems like most of the units don't actually have a point cost associated with a sergeant upgrade (this is the same with Eldar Exarchs).
Cool, I hope so that makes those characters much better.
Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....
Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.
And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.
The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.
Just because you keep shouting does not make you suddenly correct.
Toughness matters less, if you look at the wound chart in 8th you would see this. Theres only really two spots where difference of t6 and t7 matter.
And no, people took a trukk to shield boys and get them up. And because they're awesome. Now they can roll up and beat on people with construction equipment; that alone is cool as hell.
Comparing a truck and a rhino is like comparing aluminum siding to a hit pop song. They are two different things doing two different jobs. Marines need the protective layer much less, so the ablative layer outside the squad matters less. They don't really want to get dug in (unless they are outclassed in shooting) even if they are halfway decent at it, so speed is less important to them. If marines could trade their rhino for our trukk, they'd do it in a heartbeat, just so that they could run away and shoot at people all game.
If a bad save and ballistic were a problem for you, then tell me why did you choose orks? Like honestly, what were you expecting out of 8th ed?
You can still rush up field and drop off boys, you just have to pre-meditate it a little better than you did in prior edditions. For me, thats a welome change considering they no longer die just because someone looked up their rules in the codex.
I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.
T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.
I'm in the camp that agrees if burnas was d6 hits they would be too much. 15 burnas from a single source was deadly. I happen to like having a wagon of them rolling up after my trukks tankshokked infantry into a tight group. Lay down a template, multiply by 15 and watch the opponent remove the unit without bothering to go through all the rolling. Bigger thing I liked about burnas was their versatility. On a per model basis they can be turned into melee power weapons. Now I hear that the choice doesn't need to be made and they'll function as both in the turn. 15 power weapons in a single unit is a threat. The +1 S across the army helps here when these are used for melee. Sadly this impacts Kommandos as they only carry two in a unit and doesn't justify a nerf based on weight of number. Consolation prize is that they are free upgrades. I modeled with rokkits for rear/side armour attacks and big shooters for ruin campers anyways so I'll have to see how I'll make them work for 8th.
I always felt trukks were better then Rhinos and despite a clear change in the way they will play I still consider them better then Rhinos and merit the higher cost. They've made a significant leap towards tanky vehicles with vastly improved chance of getting almost all trukks across the table. Ramshackle got its needed buff and looks nice on paper. Considering the price hikes of special weapons and vehicles across the whole game, reducing the occasional multi wound hit to just one increases the value of Ramshackle in such a way that it can be measured by your opponents reaction.
For BW I went with 4 Rokkits and Kannon usually loaded with tankbustas or bare bones with a single weapon loaded with burnas. Never considered the deff rolla/killkannon upgrade sprue I'll see how other people fare with those before considering. I never liked the idea of reducing the wagons troop capacity. If I had ever deployed flash gits then I might consider which I hear they are useful now with all the old rules rolled into one snazzgun.
Losing Ard Boyz is a big hit for me. They were part of my staple basic troops which is 2/3 Shoota Boyz and 1/3 Ard Choppy Boyz. All my shoulder plates were collected for those choppy Boyz and of course my nobz while the rest are in t shirts. Rest of my melee came in the form of storm Boyz and either Manz or big choppy nobz with kombi skorchas. That loss being said......holy sweet jebus the staple core of my army got CHEAPER! Guess they want me to buy more models. Well I wasn't done filling out a big enough variety of support to select from anyway so they'll get more money from me. Kunnin gits.
I actually liked regular nobz and used them as bullys on weaker units. S6-7 was a sweet spot and I used this unit as a melee source for that Str in the form of Big Choppa for all of them. I left Manz as the source for mass PK attacks as they were cheaper and the only PK in my Nobz was the one holding the Banner. Sprinkled in the unit I modeled in Kombi Skorchas when I ran out of Big Choppa. 19pts per Kombi Skorcha is pretty steep so I dont know if I'll ever field them with all Big Choppas and all Skorchas again. But with Big Choppas now doing 2 damage a hit..and this unit hits like autocannons...I still love my Nobz.
Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....
Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.
And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.
The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.
Just because you keep shouting does not make you suddenly correct.
Toughness matters less, if you look at the wound chart in 8th you would see this. Theres only really two spots where difference of t6 and t7 matter.
And no, people took a trukk to shield boys and get them up. And because they're awesome. Now they can roll up and beat on people with construction equipment; that alone is cool as hell.
Comparing a truck and a rhino is like comparing aluminum siding to a hit pop song. They are two different things doing two different jobs. Marines need the protective layer much less, so the ablative layer outside the squad matters less. They don't really want to get dug in (unless they are outclassed in shooting) even if they are halfway decent at it, so speed is less important to them. If marines could trade their rhino for our trukk, they'd do it in a heartbeat, just so that they could run away and shoot at people all game.
If a bad save and ballistic were a problem for you, then tell me why did you choose orks? Like honestly, what were you expecting out of 8th ed?
You can still rush up field and drop off boys, you just have to pre-meditate it a little better than you did in prior edditions. For me, thats a welome change considering they no longer die just because someone looked up their rules in the codex.
Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.
I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission. Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.
So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.
now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.
Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.
oldzoggy wrote: Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.
Yup, but then again, GW fethed us with most of the rest of our shooting, it makes sense they would continue to nerf anything remotely usable that has a "range" characteristic.
Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....
Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.
And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.
The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.
The Trukk for three piddly points gets a wreckin' ball. It gets to kick ass alongside boyz quite a deal better than a rhino can.
SemperMortis wrote: I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.
T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.
They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.
oldzoggy wrote: Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.
Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...
SemperMortis wrote: I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.
T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.
They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.
Maybe that tire on the community page rumor is a new kit.
Trukkz have a worse save, have lower toughness, have worse ballistic skill. But hey we can shoot BS2 shots out of it so its all good....
Trukkz should be 6pts cheaper (minimum) then a rhino.
And you keep forgetting the biggest nerf that happened to trukkz and that buffed Rhinos. ASSAULT FROM A VEHICLE.
The only reason ANYONE took a trukk in 7th was to rush a unit forward to get into CC. You went forward, dropped off your boyz and they charged home because they were an assault vehicle. Rhinos could not do this because they weren't assault. So what happened now? Nobody can move and disgorge troops. So Trukkz and Rhinos are both equally good now at the primary purpose of a Trukk, getting Boyz into Combat.
Just because you keep shouting does not make you suddenly correct.
Toughness matters less, if you look at the wound chart in 8th you would see this. Theres only really two spots where difference of t6 and t7 matter.
And no, people took a trukk to shield boys and get them up. And because they're awesome. Now they can roll up and beat on people with construction equipment; that alone is cool as hell.
Comparing a truck and a rhino is like comparing aluminum siding to a hit pop song. They are two different things doing two different jobs. Marines need the protective layer much less, so the ablative layer outside the squad matters less. They don't really want to get dug in (unless they are outclassed in shooting) even if they are halfway decent at it, so speed is less important to them. If marines could trade their rhino for our trukk, they'd do it in a heartbeat, just so that they could run away and shoot at people all game.
If a bad save and ballistic were a problem for you, then tell me why did you choose orks? Like honestly, what were you expecting out of 8th ed?
You can still rush up field and drop off boys, you just have to pre-meditate it a little better than you did in prior edditions. For me, thats a welome change considering they no longer die just because someone looked up their rules in the codex.
Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.
I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission. Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.
So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.
now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.
yep, and that is the main reason the trukk is overpriced. if it had the same profile as now v sa rhino, but could move before the orks got out to assault it would 100% be worth the points. not it et them halfway up the board, weather the storm of fire and hope not to lose the trukk then get out and try to charge the next turn though if your opponent is smart they spent their turn getting farther away from your trukk so gg now you need ti to survive 2 turns before likely being able to charge.
Lol burna's aren't truely 0 points they just come with the model. That isn't the same.
They actually cost slightly more than 14 (burna boy cost) - 6 ( boy cost) = 8 points since burna boyz are just regular ork boyz with a burna minus choppa and slugga's.
I would rate those at at least 1 point, so they appear to be just as coslty as a SM flamer. Except not that good and on a less survivable model
oldzoggy wrote: Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.
Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...
SemperMortis wrote: I think I am going to have to purchase a lot of Wartracks now. I see them ironically as a star unit for us.
T5, 12-14 (Track/buggie) movement and can fire a S5 or S8 weapon while outflanking. They aren't good at CC since they are only S4 but they do have 4 attacks base and if you teamed them up with some Deffkoptas they would make a fearsome force to hit the enemies rear lines.
They're wicked. If they'd just put out a good rokkit buggy model.
Maybe that tire on the community page rumor is a new kit.
oldzoggy wrote: Its kinda strange how nobody except a few BBQminded ork players ever used burna's in 7th and everybody seems ok on them getting nerfed to less hits, less ap and no ignore cover.
Burna is 0 points and comes in droves. Flamer is 9 points...
It doesn't have to cost anything when the price for the Burna is already incorporated into the cost of the model that carries it.
Difference between a Burna Boy and a regular boy = NOTHING
Difference in price between a Burna Boy and a regular Boy = 8pts.
So you are paying 8pts to give your Boy a D3 auto hit weapon that functions as a type of Power weapon in CC
Realistically Burna Boyz just became Bloodletters with a worse armor save and a Range 8 D3 autohit S4 weapon.
I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.
I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.
The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.
Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?
SemperMortis wrote: Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.
I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission.
No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.
A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?
So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.
Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.
Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.
I'm sorry dude but those two fire points were SUPER important. Shooting out the top hatch of a rhino was all some people did with theirs. Given that HW now only suffer -1 bs when moving loosing that ability hurts even more. There's a reason people called them mobile pillboxes.
now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.
Certainly not. You're wrong, and you're being very loud and obnoxious about it.
SemperMortis wrote: Jesus you really like missing the point dont you? I mean it has to be your favorite thing to do.
I am not mad that Rhinos got a better save, more toughness, better BS and didnt lose a major ability like trukkz did. I am upset that when GW did all of this they didn't change the prices correctly. Trukkz got better in some ways and significantly worse in their primary mission.
No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.
A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?
So why did trukkz become so much more expensive when they lost things while rhinos pretty much gained things and went up in price less then the trukk did.
Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.
Rhino's got significantly better in their primary mission (transporting) gained assault from vehicle and they lost 2 Firepoint shots, which aren't important in reality.
I'm sorry dude but those two fire points were SUPER important. Shooting out the top hatch of a rhino was all some people did with theirs. Given that HW now only suffer -1 bs when moving loosing that ability hurts even more. There's a reason people called them mobile pillboxes.
now please stop with your repetitive posts missing the key element of mine.
Certainly not. You're wrong, and you're being very loud and obnoxious about it.
I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.
again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.
Frothmog wrote: I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.
I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.
The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.
Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?
Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.
Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.
Frothmog wrote: I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.
I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.
The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.
Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?
Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.
And you think that is 10 points better than a storm shield? Also, kill saw is 2 wounds, not 3. Unless you meant the guy has 2 wounds instead of the nobs 3. Their weapon does 3 damage compared to the nobs 2, so the attacks isn't as big a deal as you might think, plus the storm shield usually counts for more than 1 wound with how many it saves vs just 2+ armor.
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.
In some ways the changes to AP hurt good armor more in this edition. IN 7th you got your 3+ against most things, now anything that has any AP is dropping your effectiveness. Orks already got their saves ignored by most things.
Now cover mitigates this some, but marines sitting in cover aren't out accomplishing missions.
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
The biggest weakness of good armor is weight of fire. Given that more things can fire more of the time and more shots are coming from twin linked it's sort of a necessity.
Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.
Frothmog wrote: I cannot believe people keep saying that orks are not at a disadvantage, or that the point values are fair. Sure some things went up for space marines as well, but the changes are still clearly in their favor. GW obviously doesn't know (or care) that saves are a big part of the game and good ones should cost much more than they do. It isn't just orks either. Even in the space marine list there are obvious better choices as far as units and gear. GW just doesn't know how to point things.
I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine?
I don't think ork points should go down, but space marines should definitely go up. Their armor save alone is too good for their points, especially with the new changes to cover.
Lootas also went up in cost like 3 points each, but due to how the game works they won't have any chance of surviving long. They usually had 4+cover before, now it is 5+ cover unless the weapon shooting at them is ap anything.. Their ability to damage high armor targets now is ok, but the loss in defense should counter act that. Saves are king in this game and not getting them or having poor saves is why orks suck. Tons of models doesn't matter now because every army has tons of high volume shots to remove hordes. Even more so now that twin linked is double shots now. Orks will die so much faster now. As will every other low save army.
The cost difference between assault terminators and mega nobz is ridiculous. A mega nob with two kill saws is like 10 points more than an assault terminator with storm shield and thunder hammer... thunder hammers are x2 str and 3 wounds.. not d3, but 3. And cost 20 points... a kill saw is 28 points... even when given to a mek with str 4.. Sure the mega nob has 1 more wound... but the storm shield alone accounts for far more than 1 wound. And Str 5x2 is higher, but only really matters when fighting a handful of other units in the game. For the most part it will still be 3+ to wound for both units on the vast majority of units.
Want to know the dumbest thing I saw in the space marine codex point wise? Combat shield 4 points... Storm shield 5 points... wtf?
Meganob with 2 Killsaws has S10 and 4 attacks and 3 wounds vs S8 2 Attacks and 2 wounds. Killsaw is also AP -4 Vs AP -3. So Completely ignores 3+ saves and 2+ is a 6+ instead of granting saves on 6+ and 5+.
And you think that is 10 points better than a storm shield? Also, kill saw is 2 wounds, not 3.
Yes I do, Especially when you consider the cost of the squad, meganobs in a minimum squad run ~50 points cheaper, and if they want a transport run about 400 point cheaper. As for the wounds.
4 attacks will hit twice and like wound twice causing 4 wounds, with a max upside of 8 wounds, 2 attacks will hit once, and wound 1 causing 3 wounds, with a max of 6. Point for point, Meganobs will put out more damage (as a squad) than terminators. 5 Assault termies is 280 (with TH/SS), and will put out 12.5 wounds of damage on average (against T4 or lower), 22.4 points per wound, and they are significantly worse against single or 2 wound models (killing 4 models) and less with 3+ saves or better. 3 Meganobs with kill saws is only 189 points puts out 10 wound on average (against T5 or lower) so 18.9 points per wound. Will kill 5 models with 2 wounds or less. They are also better against T8 or 9 by a lot. 2 Similarly pointed units (4 Meganobs, Vs 5 Termies), Meganobs Kill 2.2termies, Termies kill 2.7 Meganobs. SO it will come down to the charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes I meant the Nobs had 3 wounds vs 2 for terminators, this makes them much more durable vs small arms fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder if they had left 'ard boyz in as to what they would make them cost. A basic space marine is 13 points. A scout is 10 or 11? Wouldn't a scout still be much better than an 'ard boy if they were still 10 points? And how big is the difference of 3 points between the 'ardboy and basic space marine? [u]
A boy in this edition would be better than a scout if he had a 4+ save. It just depends on the role, the extra attacks in combat matter quite a bit for a close combat unit.
Yea, but that doesn't mean that space marines should only be 13 points. Weight of fire also need a good BS. Other wise your just grabbing tons of dice to roll and taking longer to pick out all the misses... or the few hits.
You can get 2 orks for every marine. That's 2 wounds to 1. With a point to spare.
It takes those 2 orks 4.5 turns to kill that marine.
It takes the marine 7.2 turns to kill those ork.
In combat it takes the orks 2.3 turns to kill the marine (with no choppa).
It takes the marine 7.2 turn again.
There are obviously other factors at play that make it so Orks are not twice as good, but I see little reason for a marine to cost more than it does now.
I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.
again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same
more than one of you can be wrong at once
If a trukk could move and then disembark and then the the units could move and assault... you would have potentially
12'' move, 3'' disembark, 5'' move, d6 run, 2d6 charge (with a reroll) for a potential total of 38 in charge range from turn one.... You dont see a problem with letting a CC centric army have that?
No one is missing your point; your point is just terrible and uninformed so you're being called out on it.
A trukk and a rhino do two different jobs, for two vastly different armies. A transport you can assault out of is WORTH MORE points to an assault army than a transport you can assault out of for an army that does not specialize in assault. Sure rhinos gained this ability, but they don't benefit from it? If orks suddenly had access to railguns, should they pay the same points for them as tau do with marker-lights and higher BS? Two equal things in two different armies are no longer equal. Even if something has better stats in one army, it can be worth less because it does not compliment the role it has in the army. Do you think tau would want to pay for a battlesuit that could carry a waggh banner?
Because a trukk is demonstrably a better transport. It synergizes well with almost everything in the ork codex.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
As for the Trukk synergizing well? A Rhino does to because guess what? Assault Marines are a thing, especially for special marine armies like BA and SW.
I am missing the part where people are agreeing with you, in point of fact we seem to mostly be pointing out how we disagree with your assessment.
again if a trukk could move then the unit disembark game on, but they cannot and so saying this is somehow better on a trukk than a rhino is flawed as they function exactly the same
more than one of you can be wrong at once
If a trukk could move and then disembark and then the the units could move and assault... you would have potentially
12'' move, 3'' disembark, 5'' move, d6 run, 2d6 charge (with a reroll) for a potential total of 38 in charge range from turn one.... You dont see a problem with letting a CC centric army have that?
potential and reality are often quite different. lets roll that back to realism here. also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss
11 boyz w/ nob move 12, get out 3, move 5 then average a 7 inch charge. you are looking at a 27 inch semi reliable charge as you can reroll the charge (has to be both dice) so a trukk load of boys can probably get stuck in if your opponent if foolish enough to deploy on the line when going second or advance to the line going 1st. personally if p[laying that I would just deploy 30 inches from trukkboyz and call it good. if there is a warboss make that 33 inches. and 11 boyz with nob is nice but it is then out in the wind likely away from other things with mob rule once they lose a few models. I would even be good with a rule that if the vehicle moved the unit inside could disembark and charge but not do its movement beyond the disembark. making that average 22 and making turn 1 charges even if your opponent is on the line unlikely.
potential and reality are often quite different. lets roll that back to realism here. also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss
11 boyz w/ nob move 12, get out 3, move 5 then average a 7 inch charge. you are looking at a 27 inch semi reliable charge as you can reroll the charge (has to be both dice) so a trukk load of boys can probably get stuck in if your opponent if foolish enough to deploy on the line when going second or advance to the line going 1st. personally if p[laying that I would just deploy 30 inches from trukkboyz and call it good. if there is a warboss make that 33 inches. and 11 boyz with nob is nice but it is then out in the wind likely away from other things with mob rule once they lose a few models. I would even be good with a rule that if the vehicle moved the unit inside could disembark and charge but not do its movement beyond the disembark. making that average 22 and making turn 1 charges even if your opponent is on the line unlikely.
Alright, I'll conceed that 38 assumes alot of things would go JUST right, but even if things were more average.
12+3+2.5+(we will say 8.5 because I'm too lazy to scratch out the reroll of one die probability and will err on the side of low average) = 26 inches still with reliable probability. Add one more inch to it because you only gotta be within 1 to engage and lose nothing from casualties.
also you are assuming they have a warboss in a trukk which is unlikely unless it is meganobz and a mega boss
I don't think thats such a given anymore. A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.
Threat ranges like that being so easy to come by is an absurd though. A trukk would have to be almost 200 imo points to do something like that. As it stands, they are a bit pricey, but still spammable
I think some people are really underrating the value of open topped in this edition. Rhinos lost a lot of utility in this edition when compared to trukks. Does our shooting suck, yup, but without firepoints, moving in a rhino means that marines give up a full turn of firing for their unit as you can no longer hop out and shoot on the same turn, which was always very common. Roll up, jump out, open fire. That is now gone, so every turn a unit spends embarked is a turn it does nothing. Not so for orks, however poor our shooting may be, at least we get to do something.
Also to consider more of our units can now take trukks, burnas used to have no access, now they do. Same with Lootas, they can now sit in the protection of a Trukk and fire out the top, moving when needed to fire at -1 BS if need be.
Being embarked also became less dangerous to orks, and more dangerous to marines. An exploding transport used to do 5 unsaved wounds to a squad of 12 orks, while only doing 1.6 to marines. Now it does 2 to orks and still 1.6 to marines.
@Cover: Kind of sort of The only things that could reduce the armor of 3+ that it couldn't previously are things that were AP4, now AP -1. This does means a swath of anti-infantry and weak anti tank weapons like heavy bolters and auto cannons can reduce the save and with the Restartus and changes to Necrons you're seeing much more AP -1 than you did AP4.
On the other hand, most of the stuff that would completely ignored 3+ save now still give saves. This is especially with cover. A marine hiding in cover gets a +5 from plasma, which is the same as it usually was in 7th and previous, where as an ork will only receive hot, plasmay death
Luke_Prowler wrote: @Cover: Kind of sort of
The only things that could reduce the armor of 3+ that it couldn't previously are things that were AP4, now AP -1. This does means a swath of anti-infantry and weak anti tank weapons like heavy bolters and auto cannons can reduce the save and with the Restartus and changes to Necrons you're seeing much more AP -1 than you did AP4.
On the other hand, most of the stuff that would completely ignored 3+ save now still give saves. This is especially with cover. A marine hiding in cover gets a +5 from plasma, which is the same as it usually was in 7th and previous, where as an ork will only receive hot, plasmay death
Yes but that requires hiding in cover which seems much less common in this edition, no intervening model cover, must be full squad in cover etc. Also you are only looking at shooting, it seems to me that there are a lot more CC weapons with at least -1 than there used to be. Also AP4 stuff tended to be much higher rate of fire than AP3 or less (usually 1 or 2 shots). IF you don't assume cover, orks get their "full" saves against more than they used to, and marines get it less.
Yes I do, Especially when you consider the cost of the squad, meganobs in a minimum squad run ~50 points cheaper, and if they want a transport run about 400 point cheaper. As for the wounds.
4 attacks will hit twice and like wound twice causing 4 wounds, with a max upside of 8 wounds, 2 attacks will hit once, and wound 1 causing 3 wounds, with a max of 6. Point for point, Meganobs will put out more damage (as a squad) than terminators. 5 Assault termies is 280 (with TH/SS), and will put out 12.5 wounds of damage on average (against T4 or lower), 22.4 points per wound, and they are significantly worse against single or 2 wound models (killing 4 models) and less with 3+ saves or better. 3 Meganobs with kill saws is only 189 points puts out 10 wound on average (against T5 or lower) so 18.9 points per wound. Will kill 5 models with 2 wounds or less. They are also better against T8 or 9 by a lot. 2 Similarly pointed units (4 Meganobs, Vs 5 Termies), Meganobs Kill 2.2termies, Termies kill 2.7 Meganobs. SO it will come down to the charge.
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
davou wrote: People lamenting burna boys is kinda silly... EVERY single one of us went 'wooooah' when the rules to flamers were previewed and we all immediately thought about how OP burnas were going to be. I'd bet that the playtesters thought (and live though) the same thing. Giving them each a potential of 6 shots would have been CRAZY. heck we even have a meme before anyone played a game of them burning a helldrake out of the sky
To be fair there really isn't a good reason to take burna boys when you can take Kommandos and take burnas for free, infiltrate within 9in and get a +2 cover save for a 4+ save. Take snikrot for even more LoL's since he allows Kommandos to reroll combat hit rolls of 1 where a burna is oddly the best melee weapon a Kommando can get at -2ap in combat.. There is literally no reason to take a burnaboy over a kommando with burna since Kommandos are cheaper.
If you want a d6 burna just take the skorcha trukk it can outflank and is faster and durable and cheap enough to be annoying.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
For storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Just crunched some numbers comparing a trukk full of burnas to a land speeder storm full of scouts with shotguns.
Scouts and speeder is 157, burnas and trukk are 250 (i.e. 59% more expensive than the marines).
The LSS is obviously faster.
With a heavy flamer on the land speeder and the shotguns within half range, the scouts throw out about 70% of the burna boys firepower.
The trukk is about 50% more durable than the speeder.
The 12 burna boys are roughly 50% more durable than five scouts too.
In close combat, the orks are unsurprisingly far superior, each burna averaging half a wound or so on most infantry, while the scouts only do one third of one each. The speeder itself is oddly competent in close combat, but with only two attacks it isn't enough to shift the balance (things would be much closer if they scouts had an equal points value of infantry).
Overall, that doesn't seem too bad for the orks. The relative manoeuvrability and concentrating their points into fewer units is bad for area control, but in a stand up fight they are only at a small disadvantage with shooting and should find it fairly straightforward to get into close combat with only moderate casualties, at which point they have the upper hand.
However, I'm far from convinced that an army of scouts in land speeders is the best possible build for marines, so this is probably comparing one of the orks' stronger combinations with a fairly poor choice from the marine list.
Incidentally, I ran the numbers on the trukk against a variety of heavy weapons. The average improvement was 172% more shots needed to destroy it. This seems very close to the 173% increase in it's cost. However, simply being n% tougher doesn't make you worth n% more points. My intuition is that a fair cost is probably closer to the square root of your durability, since two trukks would be better than one trukk which took twice as long to kill, being able to carry twice as many models, move to twice as many objectives, tie up twice as many shooting units with an assault and so on while still needing the same number of shots to destroy.
I think that a fair price for a trukk with the durability of the new one and the speed of the new one would be around ((2.72^0.5)*30) or roughly 50 points. Given that the new trukk is about 20% slower and not able to move before disembarking troops any more, I'd knock another 10% or so off it. In short, the new trukk seems to be nearly twice the price my best math-hammer says it should be. (The rhino, by comparison is only about 25% more than my numbers say is right). This assumes that the old trukk wasn't horribly under-costed of course, but given that orks don't really have much of a reputation as tournament winners I'm going to say it probably wasn't.
Before anyone says I can't compare the value of old and new points, let me just say that I absolutely can because most infantry units are still very close to their old cost and still work in a very similar fashion.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
Perfect Organism wrote: Just crunched some numbers comparing a trukk full of burnas to a land speeder storm full of scouts with shotguns.
Scouts and speeder is 157, burnas and trukk are 250 (i.e. 59% more expensive than the marines).
The LSS is obviously faster.
With a heavy flamer on the land speeder and the shotguns within half range, the scouts throw out about 70% of the burna boys firepower.
The trukk is about 50% more durable than the speeder.
The 12 burna boys are roughly 50% more durable than five scouts too.
In close combat, the orks are unsurprisingly far superior, each burna averaging half a wound or so on most infantry, while the scouts only do one third of one each. The speeder itself is oddly competent in close combat, but with only two attacks it isn't enough to shift the balance (things would be much closer if they scouts had an equal points value of infantry).
Overall, that doesn't seem too bad for the orks. The relative manoeuvrability and concentrating their points into fewer units is bad for area control, but in a stand up fight they are only at a small disadvantage with shooting and should find it fairly straightforward to get into close combat with only moderate casualties, at which point they have the upper hand.
However, I'm far from convinced that an army of scouts in land speeders is the best possible build for marines, so this is probably comparing one of the orks' stronger combinations with a fairly poor choice from the marine list.
Incidentally, I ran the numbers on the trukk against a variety of heavy weapons. The average improvement was 172% more shots needed to destroy it. This seems very close to the 173% increase in it's cost. However, simply being n% tougher doesn't make you worth n% more points. My intuition is that a fair cost is probably closer to the square root of your durability, since two trukks would be better than one trukk which took twice as long to kill, being able to carry twice as many models, move to twice as many objectives, tie up twice as many shooting units with an assault and so on while still needing the same number of shots to destroy.
I think that a fair price for a trukk with the durability of the new one and the speed of the new one would be around ((2.72^0.5)*30) or roughly 50 points. Given that the new trukk is about 20% slower and not able to move before disembarking troops any more, I'd knock another 10% or so off it. In short, the new trukk seems to be nearly twice the price my best math-hammer says it should be. (The rhino, by comparison is only about 25% more than my numbers say is right). This assumes that the old trukk wasn't horribly under-costed of course, but given that orks don't really have much of a reputation as tournament winners I'm going to say it probably wasn't.
Before anyone says I can't compare the value of old and new points, let me just say that I absolutely can because most infantry units are still very close to their old cost and still work in a very similar fashion.
The Rhino got nerfed significantly in comparison to the Trukk.
davou wrote: A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.
Actually, unless otherwise stated in the listing for the ability, those aura effects do not work when the bearer is embarked in a vehicle.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
Missed the Spanner thing the first time, and yes it is true for all things that unit is not taken into account, but this has often been the case. Math Suggests that your assessment of a 3++ being way better than an additional wound is not 100% true, especially when instant death no longer exists, that used to make it worth a ton more because 1 lascannon reduced any wounds to 0. There really are not that many -3 or better weapons with lots of shots and those with lots of shots are expensive. MANZ are much more worried about things like Melta then say Plasma guns (against which they have the durability of 3 Tactical Terminators in 7e). Also remember mortal wounds exist now, and are not uncommon, against those 1 wound is way better than a 3++.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
True, forgot that part. Still 9" with a re-roll to charge is not that unrealistic.
davou wrote: A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.
Actually, unless otherwise stated in the listing for the ability, those aura effects do not work when the bearer is embarked in a vehicle.
I didnt say it did? He'd get out too of course, what kind of boss would sit in the trukk when the boys run upfield?
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
Missed the Spanner thing the first time, and yes it is true for all things that unit is not taken into account, but this has often been the case. Math Suggests that your assessment of a 3++ being way better than an additional wound is not 100% true, especially when instant death no longer exists, that used to make it worth a ton more because 1 lascannon reduced any wounds to 0. There really are not that many -3 or better weapons with lots of shots and those with lots of shots are expensive. MANZ are much more worried about things like Melta then say Plasma guns (against which they have the durability of 3 Tactical Terminators in 7e). Also remember mortal wounds exist now, and are not uncommon, against those 1 wound is way better than a 3++.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
True, forgot that part. Still 9" with a re-roll to charge is not that unrealistic.
skip the manz save the points
just take 5-6 tanknbustas with a nob with tankhammer and 2 bomb squigs in a trukk w wrecking ball
move and advance the trukk (if you get into charge range charge if not wait for next turn) fire your 24in range str8 ap-2 3 damage rokkits (shoot them into vehicles for actually decent shooting)
if your trukk blows up who cares even if you lose a few models just discard the squigs you need to take 4 deaths before you will fail a morale test and even then the nob allows a reroll to every failed ork since squigs don't count for morale.
next turn disembark and move your tankbustas and trukk advance, and fire your rokkits again, charge and atk with more str 8 ap-2 dam3, if its a target with super high invul use your 3 atk nob to hit the model with d3 mortal wounds or if your opponent kills your trukk he has a chance to take d3 more mortal wounds. There are few targets in game that can survive this.
Orks are good this edition BUT have specific builds that are good and a lot of junk.
So far I am thinking something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3-6 manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".)
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
20+ Kommandos with as many burnas as you like, charge with them as soon as you can (hide snikrot behind them for even more)
take the brigade detachment for 12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can in units to ignore casualties and morale.
I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. It is the biggest threat once it gets into range and provides extra resiliency to your army. There are so many bigger priority targets that are quickly in your opponents deployment zone to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz move/advancing each turn that are inside a 5+ invul bubble that it will allow them to get into melee range.
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
Kommandos are 9pts a model so 5pts cheaper. you lose 3 Burnas but save 25pts and gain +2 to cover and infiltrate.....Nobody is going to take Burnas, simple as that.
Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
Killcannon is mounted on the Battlewagon which ignores move penalties.
Kannon and Zzap are heavy and have the same non-moving value as the marine weapons.
Koptarokkits are assualt.
Kustom megakannon is on the 'naut which ignores move modifiers.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
I was unaware that SM Captains and characters were toting Plasma Cannons
That isn't a serious downside. And like I said, they are more then welcome to be crazy with Plasma like orks. The difference is the Ork player has half as much chance to kill himself as he does to hit the target. A Space Marine has a 25% to kill himself compared to hitting his target, with only a 2 missing.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
Killcannon is mounted on the Battlewagon which ignores move penalties.
Kannon and Zzap are heavy and have the same non-moving value as the marine weapons.
Koptarokkits are assualt.
Kustom megakannon is on the 'naut which ignores move modifiers.
KMKs are significantly more common on Artillery pieces then on a Morkanaut for the simple reason of PRICE. you can field about 10 KMKs for the price of a single Morkanaut.
Also, Kill Kannons suck big time. I have no idea how you got them doing so much damage. they are a single D6 shots per turn so 3.5 shots on average which = 1.13ish hits a turn x 100 = 113 hits in 100 turns on average. At S7 Ap-2? yeah not exactly scary, especially with the price of the damned thing and its ridiculously short range.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Incorrect.
KMB causes 1 mortal wound. Plasma Gun kills the model.
KMB is cheaper and is almost as good at the plasma gun rapid firing or overcharging without rapid fire. And it doesn't kill the model outright.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
A Plasma Cannon is no different (on average) that a rapid firing Plasma Gun other than costing more:
A KMK gives out ONE mortal wound PER salvo. A Plasma Cannon kills the model.
An Executioner Plasma Cannon woulds the bearer like the KMK. It's values are as follows:
So once again an Ork weapon that sees no move penalty is commensurate with a SM weapon with a move penalty.
The math is not on your side. You can run the numbers all you want, but until you properly tie it to points it means jack.
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
Kommandos are 9pts a model so 5pts cheaper. you lose 3 Burnas but save 25pts and gain +2 to cover and infiltrate.....Nobody is going to take Burnas, simple as that.
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. There are so many bigger priority targets for your opponent to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz inside a 5+ invul bubble allowing them to get into range.
Because you are making assumptions about what works based on your current knowledge of the game and not actually playing 8th. I can think of other things I think might work. I agree mostly on Burnas, if we see say lots of other horde infantry, your list might struggle, and Burnas might be worth it. I agree with the idea of target overload idea seeming the most viable from the first look, as it allows your slower things to make it where you need. As for command points, you might use some for charges as they allow a 1 dice re-roll so if you have kommandos that need a 9" charge and you roll a 6 and a 1, spending a command point is better than using ere we go as it gives you a 66% chance of making the charge.
Burnas might also be good for taking Spanners though they are expensive, auto healing your trukk might not be bad.
For your tankbustas I don't think the Nob can take the tank hammer, the only option he has is replacing his rokkit with a choppy weapon.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
I was unaware that SM Captains and characters were toting Plasma Cannons
That isn't a serious downside. And like I said, they are more then welcome to be crazy with Plasma like orks. The difference is the Ork player has half as much chance to kill himself as he does to hit the target. A Space Marine has a 25% to kill himself compared to hitting his target, with only a 2 missing.
But you do see armored sentinels toting them around. Primaris have 2 wounds and take plasma guns. Bikers have 2 wounds and take plasma guns. Leman Russ tanks need a special rule so that they only take 6 wounds instead of insta-dying if they roll a 1 on their plasma. I could go on. And any character who wants to take a nice shiny plasma pistol is basically committing to only using it at half power.
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. There are so many bigger priority targets for your opponent to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz inside a 5+ invul bubble allowing them to get into range.
Because you are making assumptions about what works based on your current knowledge of the game and not actually playing 8th. I can think of other things I think might work. I agree mostly on Burnas, if we see say lots of other horde infantry, your list might struggle, and Burnas might be worth it. I agree with the idea of target overload idea seeming the most viable from the first look, as it allows your slower things to make it where you need. As for command points, you might use some for charges as they allow a 1 dice re-roll so if you have kommandos that need a 9" charge and you roll a 6 and a 1, spending a command point is better than using ere we go as it gives you a 66% chance of making the charge.
Burnas might also be good for taking Spanners though they are expensive, auto healing your trukk might not be bad.
For your tankbustas I don't think the Nob can take the tank hammer, the only option he has is replacing his rokkit with a choppy weapon.
Ya I messed up with the nob w tankhammer wanted to give him one because his extra atk gave more reliability to the tank hammer going off but it will need to go on another boy. My other issue with the list is multiple special characters from multiple clans wont work in 1 brigade FoC and I may need to break it into 2 FOCS also you are right I don't know what zhardsnark does nor things like meka dreads or mega dreads or Buzzgrob which are all current models in the FW book that might make a dread mob more viable. My only issue with the dread mob is it can get expensive quickly.
at d3 hits burnaboys are still not worth it and we have better anti horde options. I get what your saying as we haven't played the index yet but its not really that hard to see CERTAIN choices aren't that good. I realize you were a tester but don't take it personally.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Incorrect.
KMB causes 1 mortal wound. Plasma Gun kills the model.
KMB is cheaper and is almost as good at the plasma gun rapid firing or overcharging without rapid fire. And it doesn't kill the model outright.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
A Plasma Cannon is no different (on average) that a rapid firing Plasma Gun other than costing more:
A KMK gives out ONE mortal wound PER salvo. A Plasma Cannon kills the model.
An Executioner Plasma Cannon woulds the bearer like the KMK. It's values are as follows:
So once again an Ork weapon that sees no move penalty is commensurate with a SM weapon with a move penalty.
The math is not on your side. You can run the numbers all you want, but until you properly tie it to points it means jack.
your numbers mean jack my friend since they dont relate to the game either. You keep pushing out 4.2s and other nonsensical number to make ork weapons look better. The FACT IS that ork weapons cost almost the exact same and do significantly less on average then their SM equivalents. I could do other comparisons if you would like they all equal the same thing.
Ork gun lines are dead and never have a chance now because of all these nerfs theyve taken.
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
I did that through all of 6th an 7th edition and tried to keep a smile on my face as my opponents made me pickup my army by the end of the 2nd turn.
Sorry if i've lost faith in this company since they've been screwing my faction over for close to a decade now.
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
I did that through all of 6th an 7th edition and tried to keep a smile on my face as my opponents made me pickup my army by the end of the 2nd turn.
Sorry if i've lost faith in this company since they've been screwing my faction over for close to a decade now.
I'll bet you a beer that things are even half as depressing as you seem to be determined they are. Give it 3 weeks and we'll have some youtube batreps to go over. I bet that they feature lootas smooshing gits from afar, and trukks carrying mobs around like maniacs
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
Morale isn't an issue for 5 man Kommandos
they each have a nob with ld7
a 5 man unit would need to take 2 casualties to fail a morale check on a 6, 3 casualties to fail on a 5 and 4 casualties to fail on a 4. 5 and your squad is already wiped out. At worst you are only ever likely to lose 1 model to morale.
3 man squads with ld7 are basically immune.
Its better to stay with 2x 5 men kommando squads at ld7 than to take 5 burnas with their ld6. that drop from ld7 to 6 is huge it means you need to roll for morale for EVERY casualty (not counting the special rule if the burna killed anyone)
Orks are fine people, just not every list is going to be great.... Trukks are awesome and people are seriously discounting how decent they will be in melee. Trukks are a suicide unit that complements orks which are an assault unit. I want my trukks to get into combat swing its 3pt wrecking ball and explode for a chance at mortal wounds on the unit. Hopefully before my unit gets into combat and dies to its own exploding trukk.
your numbers mean jack my friend since they dont relate to the game either. You keep pushing out 4.2s and other nonsensical number to make ork weapons look better. The FACT IS that ork weapons cost almost the exact same and do significantly less on average then their SM equivalents. I could do other comparisons if you would like they all equal the same thing.
Ork gun lines are dead and never have a chance now because of all these nerfs theyve taken.
Yes, they do relate to the game. They are an apples to apples comparison of the capabilities of each based on ballistic skill, cost, and effectiveness against all targets.
The weapons do not cost the same and/or do not have the same rules.
You can choose to ignore these things at your own peril. Can space marines out-shoot Orks? Absolutely. Orks aren't Tau.
If you want "Gun Line Orks" then you're taking Gretchin, Runt Herds, Deffkoptas, any of the Jets, Big/Mek Gunz, Killa Kanz, and Flash Gitz.
SemperMortis wrote: I'll take that bet....especially since that is the same fething mentality people were preaching at the start of 6th and 7th.
perfect, lets agree to disagree for 3 weeks, and then hunt for videos to send each other that makes the case. Lets say two each, one from a competative one from a casual source?
I'm sure the Miniwargaming and frontline guys will have ork games up quick enough
You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it... You keep saying it's fine because if you use this specific load out with specific guns, blah blah blah... when a SM army can do what the hell it wants with the armies the player already has and it will probably be okay. Some people don't want a green tide army of orks, I myself own only about 60 orks but a bunch of mech stuff like killa kans, deff dreads, bommers, ect... Although this can work, people with other armies must feel like crap spending all that time and effort into something that doesn't work very well while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning. I myself own a DA army and love the fact I can basically do anything now and have that dream heavy support army I had stored away!
lolman1c wrote:You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it. [...] while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning.
I dunno man, I love running mechanized MSU boys.
Orks now strike first when they charge.
Furious charge was moved to their str stat
They can mitigate leadership in bubbles.
shootas are free now.
Trukks exploding no longer take out a full half of my boys and send a quarter of them cowering in a crater.
My Nobz can't be challenge sniped out.
The mega cheesy stuff from other factions seems to have been given the boot (free units/transports, mega buffing formations).
My stuff can run and shoot and charge all in the same turn, and I don't even need to buy or build any new models
And I disagree about the space marines getting to use any model they want.... My space marine army saw a lot more love from GW than my ork army in the past, but the termiantors and honor guard squad I put together were rarely game winning models
lolman1c wrote: You have to admit though guys that Orks kind of have the short end of the stick no matter how you look at it... You keep saying it's fine because if you use this specific load out with specific guns, blah blah blah... when a SM army can do what the hell it wants with the armies the player already has and it will probably be okay. Some people don't want a green tide army of orks, I myself own only about 60 orks but a bunch of mech stuff like killa kans, deff dreads, bommers, ect... Although this can work, people with other armies must feel like crap spending all that time and effort into something that doesn't work very well while a SM can use any model he wants and at worse it will be mediocre with a 35% chance of winning. I myself own a DA army and love the fact I can basically do anything now and have that dream heavy support army I had stored away!
Eh, even during the periods when the Orks were good, they were never easy. Despite the silly, fun nature of the army, they've always consisted of fragile, specialized units that must be used in very specific ways, supporting each other on the table to do well. Which means changing and upgrading each edition as those roles change. I'm excited at the prospect of trying some new stuff out and purchasing some models that were just gak before (I think I might finally pick up a Gorkanaught!). Of course you always lose some effective models in an edition change. I bought and converted a bunch of Traktor Kannons to help deal with fliers in 7th. Now they're just strictly worse Kannons. On the other hand buggies/tracks look very tempting and I look forward to seeing them on the table again (hopefully with a new model!).
At the end of the day, I just don't think they can be any worse than they were at the end of 7th. There's no where to go but up!
I've seen both critical and people who are critical of the critical people and tbh, I'm on both sides playing as both SM and Orks... But a lot of what you say benefits orks also benefits other units (you fail a charge they can now charge you and strike first....). But on the other side, my Gretchen now hit things if I have 20 of them (so they're basically a living shield that shoots back) and I'm loving those bombs the flyers have! I feel, due to the way my army is set up, I will be okay but again, a lot of ork players are looking at their different set ups and are upset. It's unfair for GW to just make units (often expensive in real life) useless... It's like a guy coming around to my house and watering down all my paints for my art hobby. Imagine if you bought a stompa thinking it would get some use in 8th! I mean it was a risk for that guy but nobody could predict it would suck that bad! I mean that thing cost like £70 for GW! That's like a my monthly food shopping costs!
lolman1c wrote: I've seen both critical and people who are critical of the critical people and tbh, I'm on both sides playing as both SM and Orks... But a lot of what you say benefits orks also benefits other units (you fail a charge they can now charge you and strike first....). But on the other side, my Gretchen now hit things if I have 20 of them (so they're basically a living shield that shoots back) and I'm loving those bombs the flyers have! I feel, due to the way my army is set up, I will be okay but again, a lot of ork players are looking at their different set ups and are upset. It's unfair for GW to just make units (often expensive in real life) useless... It's like a guy coming around to my house and watering down all my paints for my art hobby. Imagine if you bought a stompa thinking it would get some use in 8th! I mean it was a risk for that guy but nobody could predict it would suck that bad! I mean that thing cost like £70 for GW! That's like a my monthly food shopping costs!
There is little I can find that doesn't seem useful in an Ork army. Some things like MANZ probably need to be teleported if you want to be effective. But, like was said earlier - i'm sure we'll see battle reports soon for those willing to roll up their sleeves.
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Gitfindas or some equivalent would be nice as an upgrade for more shooty units. Hopefully that's in the codex whenever it shows up...
Yeah, but they're kind of built into the statline of Flash Gitz, and it might be too powerful to stick them on Lootas (depending on points cost). It would definitely be welcome on a Mek with a SAG, as right now it doesn't seem that powerful. If a Big Mek could take a SAG, Gitfinda and Ammo Runt that would be a good combo.
Marmatag wrote: I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.
Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.
I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.
I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem
Or maybe, just maybe one is supposed to look at the bigger picture when it comes to points costs and not just comparing similiar units point for point. A few similiar units and their comparison doesn't lead to any credible conclusion about how an army fares in the game, especially one with this many different factors to account for. No amount of counterarguments change this fact.
A trukk being inferior to a Rhino in a point to point comparison means nothing, unless you intend to play an army made out of Trukks against an army made out of Rhinos.
I'm going out on a limb here and saying Rhinos are worse point for point than trukks. I don't think you will be seeing many unless they are for big assaulty units. 5 man units are better in Razorbacks, and neither are great for shooty units. At least compared to now. We might see a change that makes them common, but they are super nerfed in utility compared to 7th.
jhnbrg wrote: So much for a balanced and playtested eddition... There are still lots of units that are badly pointed or useless, SAG ffs!
So much for people taking a proper look at the math and playing games before coming to a conclusion.
SAG was to expensive and finicky in 7th, so what did they do? they made it significantly worse but you no longer kill yourself with it. Who the hell is EVER going to take one? My SAG Mekz are going to go sit on a shelf for the next 2-3 years.
I understand people want to be positive and get excited but this is a fething repeat of 7th launch. Orks will be boned for another entire edition unless GW unfeths themselves and gives us some good updates.
SAGs are terminator killers, but only 1 per turn on avg, so it has to get 2 or 3 turns to get its points back. It can now hide behind the lobbas unit(s) and still see almost the whole board, but hard to target unless he's sniped.
Not a killer unit, but AP-5 is actually pretty good. Depends on your meta.
As far as orks in general, I do not think we are on the bottom anymore. Reece thinks were top 5, and he is no slouch. We may not be as good of a general as Reece, so we have work to do to get everything out of our army.
Personally I don't want to be the scatbikes of 8th. Mid tier or even bottom mid-tier is the sweet spot, IMHO. It gives us something to shoot for.
I'm not going to lie, I actually wish they'd make it so the SAG would blow up. I'm hoping they give the Orks a lot more flavor back in the next edition.
Maybe it shouldn't have as huge of a table as before. Maybe they could have the option to "supercharge" it like plasma guns. Something like, if you super charge the SAG you roll 2d6 attacks but have to check the following table on doubles:
1,1: Tellyported - the Big Mek is slain but the target suffers 1d6 mortal wounds.
6,6: Explosion - the SAG does not fire, the Big Mek is slain and each unit within 6" suffers d6 mortal wounds.
All other doubles: Backfire - the SAG does not fire and the Big Mek suffers d3 mortal wounds.
That might be too powerful for the current points, but something like that would be fun while being a little less clunky than the former SAG.
Expensive wargear for a single-use mortal wound attack? Sadface.
My initial reaction after getting my hands on the Xenos "Hold you over" book? This game will become a sea of wound counters.... Every dread, every Kan, every Trukk, every buggy.
It will be interesting to see how it shakes out when actually playing games.
Moral of the story: 8th ed. has me cleaning 5+ years of dust off the boyz. That's a win in my book.
I'm more optimistic about some level of success for my Orks than I have been since 5th edition. I think 8th offers quite a bit to help them out compared to 6th and 7th.
Expensive wargear for a single-use mortal wound attack? Sadface.
My initial reaction after getting my hands on the Xenos "Hold you over" book? This game will become a sea of wound counters.... Every dread, every Kan, every Trukk, every buggy.
It will be interesting to see how it shakes out when actually playing games.
Moral of the story: 8th ed. has me cleaning 5+ years of dust off the boyz. That's a win in my book.
Considering tankbustas are 1 pt cheaper base then regular boy a 15pt d3 mortal wound isn't bad and the ONLY melee version of tankbustas outside of nob weapons.
I'll be running 2 squads on 5 tankbustas with a bomb squig in trukk. I'd likely keep one unit as all rokkits and one unit with 2x hammers and nob with Big choppa to act as an assault unit. I have no problem paying 15pts for d3 mortal wounds. I'll figure it out but I'll refinetly keep a few tankhammers for mortal wounds to deal with all the 3++ save armies and spam deffkoptas w bombs as well to deal with it.
Does the tankhammer replace the "default close combat weapon?" If the tankhammer bearer was in combat but didn't want to use his only (listed) melee weapon, could he make a normal attack like the other tankbustas?
Most the basic rules seem to buff us but our unit entries seem a bit a lack-lustre for the most part. I went from excited to apprehensive upon seeing our index entries.
I prefer the modifier system overall (I was brought up on rogue trader and 2nd) but loosing 4+ cover in ruins will hurt us. We'll be unsure how much until we play a few games. The sky is certainly not falling but neither am I falling over with glee. Anyway I shake it I'm still glad 7th is nearly behind us (I play orks and Blood Angels).
Indeed ork army is the one heavily affected by the cover change. While on 3+ and 4+ armor armies are more or less the same, for us is a pain.
The change is basically like a nerf to the army since we will save waaaay less miniatures that others arms by comparison.
Also no more cover from others units also affects us more than most armies.
Those general changes affect directly to the orks and "should", be taken account. But they nerfed the doktor feel no pain and nerfed the kff since the full unit must be inside.
And the GW saying that we should be happy with orks because now boaters don't quit our armor so we are more durable..... Looks more like an insult to ork player hahaha. Or that he never played an ork xD
Also what the hell they did to orks blast weapons? Before they were our best and most point/effective weapons. Focusing on them we could do something shooting..... Now they are gak. A killkanon could kill one gaunt per turn!!!! Woooo, superpowerfull........
Also yup, now assault weapons can shoot even running with a - 1 (so hits with 6s). That could be fun for us. But now looks that you can assault even if you don't shoot assault weapons... So in general armies with no assault weapons are improved since can shoot weapons with a real BS... While us will fail nearly all the extra assault shoots.
Heh, this is still too painful for me... I've blocked it out from my memory =)
Franarok wrote: Also what the hell they did to orks blast weapons?
yeah this too is also a kick in the nads... they were never my main damage dealers but I would often try to capitalise on the fact that a lot of people tend to overestimate their effectiveness. (i.e. 60pts of KMKs on a ridge could easily adjust someone's entire deployment. I'd pop a SAG in the artillery too for a few lols) I'm not happy about this change but its less bothersome than the change to the painboy... oh god.. I reminded myself again...
Still I disliked 7th with a passion where the answer to things was to spam units. I own a diverse collection of orks about 4000pts, but I don't think I own enough of any one model to get the formation/detachment bonus's from the supplements. What a pile of gak this edition was.
I think 8th will be spammy for orks
I plan to initially. field 3x kommandos, 3x tankbustas, and 3x individual deffkoptas and a single unit of 15 stormboys Because that's the amount of models I currently have.. but I'd probably like to have another unit of each.
and nerfed the kff since the full unit must be inside.
It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.
It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.
I think its a 6" range of KFF in 7th ed effects models under it. ( I have hardly used it so I'm not so familiar with the rules too). I heard from someone its 9" in 8th Ed but entire unit has to be under it to get the save... some will say nerf some say buff it will all shake out in the first few games.
Heh, this is still too painful for me... I've blocked it out from my memory =) .
Because you could take Feel No pain against destroyer weapons or 8+ strength ones, right?
I think you've been misinformed, you could not take FnP vs. either of those types of damage.
I think you really new this, right? Anyhow, please don't be so condescending.
I didn't mind my opponent packing those kind of weapons (my most common opponent was CW:Eldar). It didn't bother me as I was always happy for people to direct that kind of fire the squads that I gave FnP to. I'd happily laugh at the thoughts of my boyz being vaporised by such firepower, ironically they probably died so fast they too felt no pain.
It hasn't been nerfed. Last time I checked, it had a 3''' range. Now it has 9''. You don't need to spread out your boyz due to lack of blasts so you can easily make 2 blocks of 20 boyz fit within the KFF's range without breaaking a sweat. It's buffed.
I think its a 6" range of KFF in 7th ed effects models under it. ( I have hardly used it so I'm not so familiar with the rules too). I heard from someone its 9" in 8th Ed but entire unit has to be under it to get the save... some will say nerf some say buff it will all shake out in the first few games.
My bad, did double check. That was the Mechanicum/DAngels equivalent. Still, I consider it a buff since you no longer need to spread.
keeping a unit in 9" of the big mek means it will likely may hold 3 boyz groups of 30... not horrible but keeping them in 9 inches will be problematic while trying to reach goals, and when you need to hold multiple objectives they will be rough. as it will probably not be possible to cover them all. I really hipe they did not just get rid of eavy armor, i used to get a few small squads with it as objective holders, they were better than Gretchen and posed a threat if things came to tke things. 10 ard boys w/ nob w/ big choppa were intimidating even to a 5 man tac marine squad
G00fySmiley wrote: keeping a unit in 9" of the big mek means it will likely may hold 3 boyz groups of 30... not horrible but keeping them in 9 inches will be problematic while trying to reach goals, and when you need to hold multiple objectives they will be rough. as it will probably not be possible to cover them all. I really hipe they did not just get rid of eavy armor, i used to get a few small squads with it as objective holders, they were better than Gretchen and posed a threat if things came to tke things. 10 ard boys w/ nob w/ big choppa were intimidating even to a 5 man tac marine squad
IMO, the KFF appeal is a shield against 1st turn grief. Maybe also a bit of a boon on the second turn as you move up the table. After that ANYTHING it manages to do is just gravy. You can get an entire mechanized list inside of its bubble to protect against first turn shooting, add in ramshackle and FNP from the pain-boy and you're pretty assured to not lose any of you transports until they've at least done part of their jobs.
Looks like eavy armour's gone. I'm planning to ding them a polite email having a wee grumble about it. You never know, if enough people do similar, with New GW™ we might get a data sheet for Ardboyz down the line in WD or something.
Played a couple games of 8th this weekend, here are some ork thoughts:
Walkers are still terribad. I'll still use them. I had some bad luck with my first game with them, but at least they got 'ere we go.
As the OP said, boyz die way more easily than before, mostly due to the way cover works (or doesn't, rather). What was generally a 4+ save is now a 5+ at best, often a 6+.
Painboy is........kind of eh. 3" range isn't great, and neither is 6+ FNP. But it's slightly better than nothing?
Nob with waaaagh banner is amazing. But protip: Don't charge him into combat, leave him out for cheerleading.
Dakkajet was surprisingly solid.
Battlewagon was more durable than I expected.
Morkanaut got annihilated by custodoes, but then I ripped apart a knight with big choppas. Elite infantry seems to do bad things to single models.
Warboss and ghaz were great. Though, don't ever put either in a vehicle, as their waaaagh and breaking heads abilities don't work, and are great.
Da jump is pretty fun. Though, something to keep in mind about wierdboyz - they get +1 to their psychic phase for every 10 boyz within 10" of them, and if they bust 12 for their test they POTW. So, don't put a wierdboy in the center of 60 boyz, for example, unless you expect to roll really low.
Rokkits seem great. Want to try tankbustas in a trukk.
Mek gunz were surprisingly solid. Bubblechukka is silly, but better (which isn't saying much), KMKs are still great, and smasha gun did a surprising amount of work.
koooaei wrote: I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.
More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.
I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.
koooaei wrote: I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.
More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.
Yeah, I think Orks are really incentivized to eschew cover in 8th. Just go for it and be aggressive, since cover isn't going go to do much anyway.
koooaei wrote: I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.
More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.
Yeah, I think Orks are really incentivized to eschew cover in 8th. Just go for it and be aggressive, since cover isn't going go to do much anyway.
which translates to losing more and more models then ever before.
At least in 7th my Ork boyz would get a 5+ cover save from intervening terrain or models, now they are just SOL.
I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.
I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.
I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.
There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;
I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.
I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.
There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;
OH MY GOD! 3 Battle Reports from the start of a new edition that show orks Winning! I guess I was completely Wrong! (Sarcasm)
Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?
OH MY GOD! No Battle Reports supporting your relentless negative take!
You keep bringing up pre-release opinions about 7th for some reason, despite it's complete irrelevance to this discussion.
How many games have you played 8th ed. orks in now Semp? It's fairly easy to do with the rules leaks. Have you found them to play as you've been projecting? Let's hear some of your personal experience instead of theory-crafting trukks vs. rhinos.
Keep in mind those talking heads that you are putting so much faith into also said orks were going to be ok in 7th. How did that turn out?
If you can show me the organizers of ITC or Nova saying orks would be fine in 7th, I will eat a hat.
and again, its not JUST three batreps... Its the only three we have for orks at the moment.
and its also a lot of disagreement to tons of what you've been saying.
and its also from the mouth of the people who spent months trying to break the game and work on balance.
Well since you put faith in Frontline Gaming and used them to back up your opinion, heres Frontline gamings opinion on 7th edition Orks after the codex came out
"But, Orks is a big win, IMO. I was at first really bummed about Mob Rule and what it might mean, but, I see now that there are a million ways to get around it. Plus, you have so much incredible variety in Orks and the ability to make just the army you want AND to make it actually fight well, too. That is a big win and I think Orks will be a great army for the casual player, the competitive player and the hobbyist that just want to make some cool looking stuff."
So, yeah, I don't put faith in their opinions about Orkz.
And Blacksteel you make no sense. I keep bringing up pre-release 7th opinions? no I actually brought those up and pointed to how the reviewers were all positive about the Ork release and how it would do in 7th. Thats completely relevant because guess what? THAT IS EXACTLY WHATS HAPPENING AGAIN! Jesus thats a hard point to miss.
How many 8th edition games have I played yet? None, my area won't be playing 8th for at least another 2 weeks. So just like the rest of you I am using speculation based on the limited information available, it just so happens my opinion differs widely from yours and Davou and a handful of others. Of course I have been playing orks for a long time and I am now used to GW screwing the Ork faction as hard as possible so I will openly admit I am jaded. But from what I can see so far Orks aren't going to be doing well this edition, just like last edition.
koooaei wrote: I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.
More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.
I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.
Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.
Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.
I would agree with you. Also, I would expect Zhadsnark to probably get hit with the Nerf hammer as well, if he even gets reprinted.
Well since you put faith in Frontline Gaming and used them to back up your opinion, heres Frontline gamings opinion on 7th edition Orks after the codex came out
"But, Orks is a big win, IMO. I was at first really bummed about Mob Rule and what it might mean, but, I see now that there are a million ways to get around it. Plus, you have so much incredible variety in Orks and the ability to make just the army you want AND to make it actually fight well, too. That is a big win and I think Orks will be a great army for the casual player, the competitive player and the hobbyist that just want to make some cool looking stuff."
alright alright; I will start looking for a hat to eat
but to be fair, when 7th came out, the first few codex seemed to suggest that the eddition was going to scale down the creep.... THEN we got the necron dex
koooaei wrote: I don't like the fact that you never get cover if you're trying to play aggressively.
More importantly do you want cover outside of kommandos when charging into or out of cover makes your charge ranges much worse to pull off outside of ruins of course.
I see orks as being low top tier this edition. I think FW will make keep them competitive.
Zhardsnark will either be a strong warboss on bike and/or buff bikers
Mekadread should be a slightly cheaper morkanaut w kff Buzzgrob should either help Waller lists or buff his stompa w repairs whole he's embarked.
Kustom stompa will have option for invul save, and more weapon additions such as belly gun and eye of gork increasing offense
Big trakk should be a less expensive wagon
Killtank was a beast last edition and should be still
Supakannon sjould be a better weapon for battlewagons
There is a lot of good things coming through FW.
Man, that is a lot of conjecture in the above. I wouldn't expect much from FW until we know what we have. In particular, I would expect a big hit to buzzgob's stompa, at least in terms of points.
not a lot of conjecture and I didn't make much conjecture on costs.
Zhardsnark is already a warboss on bike, considering he is a special character he likely has additional rules then a warboss on bike, ( I doubt he makes warbikers troops which would be a nerf) However warbosses on bikes are MATHEMATICALLY the most cost efficient and best option I am sure he will cost more though.
Mekadread is a smaller walker that HAS a KFF not much conjecture there.
Buzzgrob stompa is just a kustom stompa whether the rules exist still is conjecture but I doubt they get rid of it since they have a model
IN WHICH CASE kustom stompas have an option for void shield which in 8th edition is turned into an invulnerable save, The void shield generator for instance is a 4++. The kustom stompa adds more weapon options with the belly gun and gaze of mork being ADDITIONAL weapon options on top of the arm weapons.... this is going to cost a crap ton... HOWEVER it is customizable so you can take what you want.
The big trakk is litteraly a bigger trukk but smaller than a battlewagon and can take mek gunz as weapons this is literally not conjecture but its stat sheet.
The supakannon is literally bigger than the kill kannon.
The killtank has a shitton of guns and is massive. Its probably overpriced but it was one of our best tanks last edition.
Not a whole lot of conjecture since these are models forgeworld makes. Some might cost ALOT. Some will cost less and fill in gaps in an army we need fulfilled like cheaper, mobile durable KFF's. The forgeworld index list is mostly out and all these models are in the index. The rules we will see, but I suspect some key options from us for these which were already some of our most competitve options last edition
I am wondering how they will handle the lifta droppas in 8th. I have a stompa modeled for one and there is nothing like throwing a land raider at another land raider to blow up the 2nd one to warm the heart of gork and mork
add
another thought on reading it, I am fairly sure I must be missing something, but maybe I am wrong. KFF big mek embarks on a battlewagon. is there a reason the 9 inches would nto be from the battlewagon or as i assume last edition it would not, and given no embarking special rule does this mean embarked kff mek would not provide a save ... wait nevermind i was reading the big mek on a bike. it is on the regular mek just the vehicle
G00fySmiley wrote: I am wondering how they will handle the lifta droppas in 8th. I have a stompa modeled for one and there is nothing like throwing a land raider at another land raider to blow up the 2nd one to warm the heart of gork and mork
add
another thought on reading it, I am fairly sure I must be missing something, but maybe I am wrong. KFF big mek embarks on a battlewagon. is there a reason the 9 inches would nto be from the battlewagon or as i assume last edition it would not, and given no embarking special rule does this mean embarked kff mek would not provide a save ... wait nevermind i was reading the big mek on a bike. it is on the regular mek just the vehicle
models don't count as on the table when embarked. The kff specifically allows you to affect the vehicle he is embarked on
wtwlf123 wrote: I'm more optimistic about some level of success for my Orks than I have been since 5th edition. I think 8th offers quite a bit to help them out compared to 6th and 7th.
It does. Ignore the haters. Orks were terrifying in 5th using a 4th ed codex.
I don't do BatReps, but I have yet NOT gotten Boyz in CC by turn 2. And with rare exceptions (Nids so far) the best cover is to be in CC, you are practically immune to the shooting phase. (If they have pistols that's about it.) Between Move, Advance, Charge, Pile In, and Consolidate it is really quite easy to encircle small specialized units. 5 or less squads have no chance, if they have about 10 it gets hard, but that needs to be 10 after the Fight has been resolved.
Maneuver is quite important, you can deny fallbacks etc. with your faster units, your flanking units, your DS units.
Another thing, the point "value" of an unit varies quite a bit, I think they used some sort of average "value". The difference of Boyz being in an Aura or not being in an Aura is pretty big. Da Jump is better used on Grots for area denial then Boyz imo, Grots lose less "value" than Boyz being off by their own. 25 Boyz w/ Choppas, Weirdboy, Warboss combo gets you a 16" charge range, with 125 attacks to resolve, and that's if the Weirdboy and Warboss don't join in...
Speaking of Nids, right combo gives 29" charge range for GS, 31" for Gaunts, that's an either/or though... They can pretty easily get 3-5 turn 1 successful charges... Very low Vehicle counter ability though, at least in what I've seen.
KFF's are workable as moving "cover" save, but meh, not my style...
ok, so games to play tomorrow I am trying a battle wagon rush list. 3 battlewagons, and trukks maybe a few bikers including a kff bike bringing up the rear to provide cover with the bikers behind him to screen him from shots.
hoping to get more in to try a green tide with painboys and kff protection and a round without and just bringing more boyz
Guys don't worry too much about SemperMortis' complaints, for him the grass is always greener on the other side (even though we're Orks for Gork's sake! There's no one else greener!). He did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving Orks back in the Proposed Rules thread before 8th ed released, often comparing it to jetbike/grav-spam and basically using that as the standard. Until Ork boyz have 2+ saves built in, with S10 AP-6 D6 damage choppas he's not really going to be satisfied.
From the first game I've had from trying out the new rules, I'm seeing that Orks are easily in a much better place than 7th ed. We have a much better way of dealing with morale, mobz of boyz are viable again and there's few units that feel like complete duds. I haven't tried out a dred mob yet (though I aim to soon) but I'm glad its no longer bikers or mechanized infantry every day all the time now.
Grimskul wrote: Guys don't worry too much about SemperMortis' complaints, for him the grass is always greener on the other side (even though we're Orks for Gork's sake! There's no one else greener!). He did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving Orks back in the Proposed Rules thread before 8th ed released, often comparing it to jetbike/grav-spam and basically using that as the standard. Until Ork boyz have 2+ saves built in, with S10 AP-6 D6 damage choppas he's not really going to be satisfied.
From the first game I've had from trying out the new rules, I'm seeing that Orks are easily in a much better place than 7th ed. We have a much better way of dealing with morale, mobz of boyz are viable again and there's few units that feel like complete duds. I haven't tried out a dred mob yet (though I aim to soon) but I'm glad its no longer bikers or mechanized infantry every day all the time now.
"he did the same thing for other player's ideas for improving orks back in the proposed rules thread" yeah why is that? because every proposed idea was mentally handicapped.
I'll be happy when I can sit my orks on a table and have a fair game instead of a game of "who brought the better faction".
And funny enough, I was completely right about 7th edition and about the waaagh supplements. I was also right about how useless Flyers were going to be. So right now im batting a thousand and you and your "But were orks mehh" brethren are on 2 outs and 2 strikes.
But let me leave you with this little glimmer of hope. I am not the Omnissiah nor the emperor. I MIGHT BE WRONG! Maybe they fethed up everyone elses armies so badly that Orks by comparison are top notch. I don't know and I won't know until i try out a few tournaments. But going just off what theyve done to our units and prices for those units and then comparing them to similar units in the Space Marine codex, we are in trouble.
I am still trying to figure out how we got shafted so hard in this edition when we got shafted so hard last edition. If anything I was expecting some of our units to be a bit to good to compensate for how crappy they were to begin with. Nope, GW doubled down on most of those bad units and made our good units worse.
I'm still trying to figure out how you're still repeating this over and over despite the people who play tested suggesting they were competative, battle reports starting to come out with orks winning, and all of us arguing against what you've said over the last few days. I mean honestly, at one point you suggested that people are being paid to lie about how good a certain flavor little plastic army men are as if they were lobbying for the petrol industry.
There are at least two orky batreps on the forums right now;
Guys can we just all ignore him and get on with talking about Orks, rather than having to spend half of every single page trying to refute a load of semi-informed, unrelenting complaining? He's clearly made his mind up already and loves a whinge, so I don't see the point in constantly trying to argue the toss.
I'm currently trying to work out how best to mitigate against most buffs only applying to Orks of the same clan, given that my army's currently painted up as a mix of Bad Moons, Evil Suns and Goffs. Seems like I'm going to need to paint up a few more characters from different Clans, then make sure all the same coloured lads get deployed, and operate, together.
I'm currently trying to work out how best to mitigate against most buffs only applying to Orks of the same clan, given that my army's currently painted up as a mix of Bad Moons, Evil Suns and Goffs. Seems like I'm going to need to paint up a few more characters from different Clans, then make sure all the same coloured lads get deployed, and operate, together.
For orks this is easy.... Your waaagh is a Demorkracy; every month the bosses have a giant scrap and the person who comes out wiff da most teef is the Elekted Leadur.
You can swap your clan from game to game and not feel bad about it or even have a tie some months where there are two Presiduntz
Pedroig wrote: Or just call your "clan" My Waaagh clan, which should help for most units currently...
It's not like you currently get any additional Clan benefits like Extra move on bikes, a different Psychic table, or special rules...
Don't think anyone would raise a fuss if you Waaaghed the '<clan>'
Aye, there are certainly ways round it, so I'm not going to get too much of a huff on, just feel like it's a shame you're sort of penalised for doing Proper Clans – but I guess that's what's going to happen if you apply a mechanic intended to avoid SM chapter shenanigans to Orks, who should operate differently. Other than that and the lack of Ardboyz though, I'm pretty excited to crack on with my ladz in 8th.
wow, yep. EITHER one or two get to be rerolled. Makes those natural nines easier!
Mathed it out. Chance of getting a 9 with rerolling (both dice if both are 3 or less, otherwise rerolling one if you have a 4, 5 or 6) is 57%. Still not great, but better than half of the time you'll get in from "deep strike".
Also: being forced to re-roll both gives a 40% chance of getting a 9. The 7e way of rerolling 1 die gives a 52% chance.
Since most of us assumed we'd have to reroll both, this little find changed a nerf to a buff! Good find!
SemperMortis wrote: I'll take that bet....especially since that is the same fething mentality people were preaching at the start of 6th and 7th.
I remember that people thought 6th would "tone down" 40k as many of the power builds of mass Razorbacks got brought down due to Hullpoints and aircraft. Then Chaos got assfire Heldrakes, Tau got Riptides and Eldar got Serpents.
Then they thought 7th would be "more balanced" as Orks, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights got nerfbat codexes...then the Decurion came out and Scatpack Eldar.
Both from an internal and external perspective, GW is good at making the Treaty of Versailles look balanced.
Hmm, I'm not sure that interpretation's right. It's just covering all the various possibilities of what different re-rolls might allow. The "charge roll" (as per Ere We Go) is both dice, I would say. Deffo one that could do with clarification though.
Nazrak wrote: Hmm, I'm not sure that interpretation's right. It's just covering all the various possibilities of what different re-rolls might allow. The "charge roll" (as per Ere We Go) is both dice, I would say. Deffo one that could do with clarification though.
I think we're ok. It says "A unit with this ability can reroll failed charge rolls." We are rerolling a roll, not a die or dice, which is exactly the same verbage as the image above.
Nazrak wrote: I'm currently trying to work out how best to mitigate against most buffs only applying to Orks of the same clan, given that my army's currently painted up as a mix of Bad Moons, Evil Suns and Goffs. Seems like I'm going to need to paint up a few more characters from different Clans, then make sure all the same coloured lads get deployed, and operate, together.
Presumably, once we get clan rules, we'll each get a minor buff per clan. Your boyz might be the best off of the bunch, as you could make "divisions" which each having their own buff. One group could go attack vehicles, another could hold back and snipe, etc.
Until then you could practice with divisions of each, although you'd need more HQs to buff the groups separately.
Something else I noticed from my games is that boyz are incredibly weak against vehicles which, in fairness, makes a decent amount of sense.
But for context, it took boyz (with a boss nob with PK) 3 separate charges to take out a wyvern. And each time it got to overwatch with everything, which didn't hurt a TON, but it added up.
But then again, a group of 8 nobz with big choppas annihilated a knight before it could swing.
So, I guess my point is that's important to use the right tool for the job - in the case of vehicles, use rokkits / lootas / mek guns, or a lot of big chopppas/klaws.
Pedroig wrote: Or just call your "clan" My Waaagh clan, which should help for most units currently...
It's not like you currently get any additional Clan benefits like Extra move on bikes, a different Psychic table, or special rules...
Don't think anyone would raise a fuss if you Waaaghed the '<clan>'
currently you get in trouble if you want to use special characters... ghaz is goff snikrot is blood axes. if you want em to buff your units all of em have to have the same clan. same goes for flashgitz, since they have no clan tag they cant be buffed.
currently you get in trouble if you want to use special characters... ghaz is goff snikrot is blood axes. if you want em to buff your units all of em have to have the same clan. same goes for flashgitz, since they have no clan tag they cant be buffed.
Since i'm blood axes all the way, I guess it's snikrot for me! My snikrot is missing his arm...anyone got an extra?
Nazrak wrote: I'm currently trying to work out how best to mitigate against most buffs only applying to Orks of the same clan, given that my army's currently painted up as a mix of Bad Moons, Evil Suns and Goffs. Seems like I'm going to need to paint up a few more characters from different Clans, then make sure all the same coloured lads get deployed, and operate, together.
Presumably, once we get clan rules, we'll each get a minor buff per clan. Your boyz might be the best off of the bunch, as you could make "divisions" which each having their own buff. One group could go attack vehicles, another could hold back and snipe, etc.
Until then you could practice with divisions of each, although you'd need more HQs to buff the groups separately.
From what I've seen, any faction bonus rules will probably be in the form of new stratagems which you only get if all units in the army share the right keyword. Shifting battlefield roles might be done with detachment-wide keywords or just assigning the unit to the right faction.
Pedroig wrote: Or just call your "clan" My Waaagh clan, which should help for most units currently...
It's not like you currently get any additional Clan benefits like Extra move on bikes, a different Psychic table, or special rules...
Don't think anyone would raise a fuss if you Waaaghed the '<clan>'
currently you get in trouble if you want to use special characters... ghaz is goff snikrot is blood axes. if you want em to buff your units all of em have to have the same clan. same goes for flashgitz, since they have no clan tag they cant be buffed.
Right now this really isn't an issue since there is no benefit or requirement that your entire force (or even detachment) be from a single clan.
Ghaz buffs effect all Ork infantry or Ork units, unlike other warbosses he is not limited by Clan
Snikrot buffs only Kommandos, so make your commandos Blood axes
Badrukk buffs flashgits regardless of Clan
Zagstruk buffs goff stormboyz so make your stomboyz goffs
So unless from a fluff standpoint you don't want to mix and match, right now there is nothing requiring you to do so,
In fact it is more of an issue with non-special characters like standard warboss (for morale), painboy, and mek(or big mek) only effect clan units.
currently you get in trouble if you want to use special characters... ghaz is goff snikrot is blood axes. if you want em to buff your units all of em have to have the same clan. same goes for flashgitz, since they have no clan tag they cant be buffed.
Since i'm blood axes all the way, I guess it's snikrot for me! My snikrot is missing his arm...anyone got an extra?
demon prince arm with sword, cheap as chips on ebay as most people use the axe and to represent his killa str ... doo eeet
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it.
Can I have your dice? Cause wow... That just sounds amazingly lucky.
It was very lucky but 45 shots, 5+ then 5+. then he only has a 4++ save. It's actually funny because the squad of tankbustas I fired right after didn't do jack. For the most part I've found that the ork boys squads have been my most reliable units. This game I had 1 25 man, 2 22 man squads. then a 20 man stromboy squad. Morale issues are non existent because he has to whittle all squads down before I face issues. 1 boy squad lost 18 in CC last turn and they didn't face morale because of the 22 man squad right next to them. d6 roll was a 3. 3+ 18 =21 LD 22 meant no lost orks. Overall I'm happy with the changes so far, need to play other armies though
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
All I wanted to hear was that people were winning around half their games with orks. Winning most of them is a pleasant surprise, but I certainly hope that things like that are adjusted quickly.
Also I suspect that actual games happening now kicked the legs out from under Sempers naysaying Lets hope he can enjoy his army now
That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.
Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.
Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...
"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."
If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?
There is very little consistency between the buff rules for units having high numbers of models
Termagants/Gargoyles - If this unit contains 20 or more models, you can re-roll wound rolls of 1 when shooting.
Hormagaunts- If this unit contains 20 or more models, you can re-roll wound rolls of 1 when it fights
Purestrain Genestealers - same as you mention
Plaugebearers - If this unit contains20 or more at the start of a phase ...
Daemonettes - increase attacks by 1 for each model in this unit whilst it contains 20 or more models
Bloodletters - add 1 to your to hit roll.. whilst it contains 20 or more models.
I tend to think that given how these all seem to work it is reasonable to assume that Boyz only get +1 attack if they have 20 + models at the time that they attack. At least that is what I will assume, if I get proven wrong later at least it will only be to my advantage.
That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.
Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.
Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...
"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."
If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?
Because with Bespoke rules, you'll see this all the time? Different bespoke rule, different wording.
I don't buy your argument at all. "If a unit includes 20 or more models," does not preclude losing the bonus due to casualties. If I purchase 30 boys and lose 11 of them, my unit no longer 'includes' 20 or more boys. It now "includes" 19 boys. If it said "starts with" or "includED" then you'd have an argument.
I guarantee if you tried this at any tournament, it would get shot down in a heartbeat.
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
All I wanted to hear was that people were winning around half their games with orks. Winning most of them is a pleasant surprise, but I certainly hope that things like that are adjusted quickly.
Also I suspect that actual games happening now kicked the legs out from under Sempers naysaying Lets hope he can enjoy his army now
Well it's not all the army. My opponent made a few errors. Including rushing landraiders forward after unloading tac squads only for me to ignore the tac squad and charge the Landraider. That means that in addition to this combat, he either has to fall back and not fire with it, or suffer more close combats. With 8th small changes in model placement can completely screw you, so this is where the strategy comes in.
But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it.
Can I have your dice? Cause wow... That just sounds amazingly lucky.
40 * 1/3 accuracy * 1/3 wounds * 1/3 saves = 1.5
So yea, definitely lucky
Wait!! he said 20"""+"""" Boyz, so Let's say it was 60 Boyz
60 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2.22
... meh
Altho, They would do well during the actual melee
4 attacks per Boyz since they kept their Pistols means 160-240 attacks
160 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 11.85
240 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 17.77
Soul Grinders have 14 wounds, so definitely possible
But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it.
Can I have your dice? Cause wow... That just sounds amazingly lucky.
40 * 1/3 accuracy * 1/3 wounds * 1/3 saves = 1.5
So yea, definitely lucky
Wait!! he said 20"""+"""" Boyz, so Let's say it was 60 Boyz
60 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2.22
... meh
Altho, They would do well during the actual melee
4 attacks per Boyz since they kept their Pistols means 160-240 attacks
160 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 11.85
240 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 17.77
Soul Grinders have 14 wounds, so definitely possible
He had taken a few wounds from the turn before bu one squad had 25 the other had 22.
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.
Have you guys thought that he maaaaaybe misremembered now the damage output of the gun when typing it but, with the book in front of him, he did it right?
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.
Have you guys thought that he maaaaaybe misremembered now the damage output of the gun when typing it but, with the book in front of him, he did it right?
Sure. But he can come back and clarify that so we know if his battle report is accurate or not. Since shokk attack guns wouldn't be a great way to kill a Land Raider in most cases it seemed likely that he had it wrong. It's 40K-- we all make rules mistakes.
mhalko1 wrote: I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.
All I wanted to hear was that people were winning around half their games with orks. Winning most of them is a pleasant surprise, but I certainly hope that things like that are adjusted quickly.
Also I suspect that actual games happening now kicked the legs out from under Sempers naysaying Lets hope he can enjoy his army now
Yep, a bunch of players playing a new game, getting numerous rules wrong and a handful of anecdotal evidence is going to completely flip my perspective....
I'll wait for the first tournament results to come back and see how badly orks suck. So far every Batrep Ive seen has had huge problems with rules. Not their fault though, its a new edition with lots of changes so this is to be expected.
Yep, a bunch of players playing a new game, getting numerous rules wrong and a handful of anecdotal evidence is going to completely flip my perspective....
I'll wait for the first tournament results to come back and see how badly orks suck. So far every Batrep Ive seen has had huge problems with rules. Not their fault though, its a new edition with lots of changes so this is to be expected.
Yep, everyone is getting all the rules wrong, in exactly the right way to benefit orks, except you of course... Who has been correct all along despite everyone disagreeing with you and all the evidence to the contrary? Is that were we are now? or are you back to thinking perhaps people have been paid to disagree with your take on it?
well I got my first game in last night. a friend wanted to do 52 power level points.
I brought
a big mek w/ kff,
a painboy
2 units of 30 boyz, 3 big shootas, nob w/ pk 1 units of 3 wartraxx w/ rack o rockets
1 unit of 1 wartraxx w/ rtack o rockets
it was against
space marine capatain with lightning claw
chaplain with power fist and jump pack
assault squad 2 had plasma pistols, one had a power axe
1 assault cannon dred
1 unit of sternguard
2 units of 10 tac marines with a heavy bolter and flamer each
we did the new kill points one just whoever has the most points a the end. 4x4 table.
orks literally just were point, shoot, stick in combat.
to shooting I lost a few boyz (maybe 10) and a wartraxx before getting in, the new advance rule plus er we go netted me turn 2 charges. for all but 1 unit of boyz, the kff big mek and painboy who got in turn 3
the painboy i am probably not going to use in the future. he seemed like wasted points, saved 1 boy, in close combat he might have a place with ork nobx restoring wounds but for the points just bring more nob bikes
the big mek with kff was questionable, he saved like 2 boyz. I would have been better off with a warboss. however until/if they bring ard boys back it is the best save boyz can get.
30 boys w/ nob took 3 rounds of combat to down a drednaught and by then had been joined by a captain who died the same turn. sternguard vaporized under ork assault and piled into another combat with tac marines in cover. fortunately his assault marines kept missing assaults with 1 roll of 3" and 1 roll of 5" and I was able to shoot them down to 3 before they got in with a volley of traxx rokkits
the wartraxx with 4 str 4 attacks and 6 wounds were decent in combat vs tac marines. the chaplain came in to help and wiped them. they more tied up the tacs than actually bringing them down. killed 4 in 2 rounds of combat.
boys do much better in combat with their str 4 but still died in droves when shot.
orks eeked out a win with 18 points on the table to 12 for space marines
I had 20 boyz w/ pk nob
1 boy w/ pk nob (kept passing morale by the end they killed a captain, a dreadnaught, 3 assault marines and almost finished the chaplain)
painboy was in combat with 4 tac marines he was charged the last turn by the squad who brought the other boyz down to 20
kff big mek helped with a few tac marines nothing of note though i guess the few saved boyz gave me 3 points
he had 5 tac marines
chaplain
it was a fun match that could have gone either way.
So imagine you take 3 trukks, 3 units of boyz / nobz / Tankbustas and 3 units of Stormboyz that are each 5 boyz + Nob. Deploy the stormboyz in the trukks with the other units right behind them. On turn 1 Stormboyz disembark 3" Move 12" Run d6" <- good place to use a CP reroll, and charge 2D6" For a maximum threat range of 33" on turn 1. More likely you are looking at 27", but that is still enough for a T1 charge to get in and tarpit something shooty for a turn. Maybe tie up a transport, so you guarantee board control.
Theory #2: Flash Gitz and Nobz got a stealth durability upgrade. Ammo Runts. 4 point ablative wounds. Got Hit by a Lascannon? Kill an ammo runt. Battlewagon explodes? Kill an ammo runt.
That right there is fun.
Theory #3: Battlewagons seems like a better transport than Trukks on a point for point basis.
With a transport capacity of 20, and the ability to transport multiple units, make use of that transport capacity. My 1st thought was Flash Gitz plus meganobz. But the more I think about it, Meganobz just don't really bring much to 8th ed except a big price tags. Nobz on the other hand, are cheap enough, and durable enough to really fit in. So Flash Gitz plus Nobz. No still not liking it. Flash Gitz have short range, but Heavy weapons, so you don't want to move (pending the Mobile Fortress rules clarification). Also, all those sweet ablative wounds eat up spots in the wagon. What else. Tankbustas. Assault weapons. Now we stick nobz in there as a counter charge unit. Barely even need to give the upgrades. Just an ammo runt or 2 to eat explosions.
Theory #4 Big Mek on Bike the king of shooting.
The Big Mek can take 2 Kombi-Skorchas. Put him on bike, and he is shooting 6 guns potentially at different targets, repairing a vehicle and charging all in one turn. That right there is nutz. If you want to go hog wild, you can replace a kombi-skorcha with SAG.
Spoiler:
Extra: The theory that fell apart as soon as I started doing math.
Spoiler:
Theory #5 Kill one thing, kill it dead.
So Tankhammers. 2 per unit of Tankbustas. Thankfully, we can now put multiple units of Tankbustas in a Wagon. So 1st thought is 4 units each with 2 Tankhammers. That is 8 tankhammers. On a 3+ we are going to average 10.67 Mortal wounds. That's not bad. It is 485 points which might be a bit underwhelming. Lets see if we can improve on that. 2 squads of 5, each with 2 Tankhammers, a Free Nob, and 1 Bomb squig, a Pistol busta, and 1 normal busta.. A 3rd squad the same except 2 bomb squigs. Now add a Nob with WAAAGH banner. Add a Nob w/ Waaaagh banner. Now you've got 20 models in a Battlewagon. You get out turn 2, hit a thing with 5 bomb squigs, 3 Melta bombs, 6 Rokkits. Then you charge it and do 10 Mortal wounds thanks to the WAAAGH banner bumping you to hitting on 2's. That all comes out to 611 points. Gak. OK, this idea isn't going to work. It would kill a knight dead, but definitely isn't worth it.
I'd lover to hear your thoughts on Bomb Squigs vs Tankbustas Vs Tankhammers Vs Pistol Busters vs Nobs w/ Big Choppas.
I've been having trouble jumping on the bomb squig train. He's 10/17th as expensive as another busta, but his output per use is only about twice as good. Sounds great, right?
Against vehicles, he auto hits (practically) where the busta hits 20/36 times, just better than half. The damage output at d6 is only a little better than the reliable 3.
But he can only be used once, has shorter range and can't hit flyers at all.
If you are thinking the bustas will only get 2 shots per game, then he has about the same output yet much cheaper than a rocketeer. But if the bustas shoot 4 times in a game, suddenly the plain busta is twice as good for less than twice the price.
On top of that, the busta is much better in combat, if push comes to shove.
All in all, I don't think the squig is the panacea that he's made out to be. (full disclosure...haven't actually played 8th yet.... )
The squig is a complement to a busta squad and is the highest damage per shot. If your expecting every rokkit boy to survive 3-4 turns to outperform a squig that's never going to happen. while rokkit tankbustas can shoot flyers and get into combat they are fairly bad at both. They don't have a melee weapon so use base stats and even a 6+ rerollable is pretty bad odds vS flyers. Furthermore the benefit to taking squigs is you can always use them as ablative wounds that ignore morale. You lose a model on a destroyed vehicle? Kill a squig get shot and lose a model kill a squig. You won't fail morale. Furthermore 18in isn't that far off from 24in. With most deployments 24in apart and a 12in movement on trukks assault squigs are reliable first turn
So yeah, against VEHICLES a bomb squig puts out 2x the damage of a Rokkit, but only does it once. Against non-vehicles the output is much starker. BS are Terminator Killers. I don't feel that is very fluffy but it is interesting.
The TB bomb was disappointing once I ran the numbers. It's still useful if you have a BC Nob or Tankhammer, but generally You want to avoid.
Rokkit Pistols are great, but have limited range.
Seeing these numbers, its tempting to make sure you have a Nob w/ at least a BC in the squad. You just do so little effective damage on average without close combat wargear.
I'll run a similar set of numbers for Lootas, Flashgitz, and Nobz
numbers are a bit off rocket pistols are str7 not str8 and d3 not 3 damage.Nobs are 3+ bs but the Pk is -1 hit so 4+ bs. Busta bombs are 6" not 4". Something is messed up with the saves on the knight in melee the bc is -1 the rokkit is 0 ap and yet the rokkit has more through the save when the knight has a 3+ Vs the rokkit. The tankbustas bomb is significantly better than the rokkit it has d3 hits and d6 damage (your hits are off). There is a bit off on that chart and I haven t gotten out of the knight profile. That chart is mostly unusable. Bomb squigs are by far the best damage especially per point spent considering a rokkit boy is nearly double cost 17ppm vs 10ppm. Tankbusta bombs are not far behind. Both rokkits and pistols are behind those 2 with rokkits being better than pistols vs everything but toughness 6 or lower and 1-2 wound models. However I don't know any vehicles that fit that criteria so unless your making a melee busta unit w nob w bc and 2x tankhammers I don't know why you'd take the pistols.
Edit: Arrgh. confused myself. Thought I was posting in the tactica thread. I think Orks are fine vs marines. I'll take my tactica over the appropriate place.
JimOnMars wrote: I've been having trouble jumping on the bomb squig train. He's 10/17th as expensive as another busta, but his output per use is only about twice as good. Sounds great, right?
Against vehicles, he auto hits (practically) where the busta hits 20/36 times, just better than half. The damage output at d6 is only a little better than the reliable 3.
But he can only be used once, has shorter range and can't hit flyers at all.
If you are thinking the bustas will only get 2 shots per game, then he has about the same output yet much cheaper than a rocketeer. But if the bustas shoot 4 times in a game, suddenly the plain busta is twice as good for less than twice the price.
On top of that, the busta is much better in combat, if push comes to shove.
All in all, I don't think the squig is the panacea that he's made out to be. (full disclosure...haven't actually played 8th yet.... )
The point with bomb squigs is that orks aren't fit to survive for long and several units are expendable ones. Tankbustas are one of them. Their purpose is to wreck a single target, once they achieved that goal everything that comes after is pure gold. A big unit of tankbustas is a primary target and without the trukk protection they're dead in a single turn. In a BW they become extremely expensive now. That's why having a couple of squigs (basically the cost of a single busta) may worth it. I don't see a unit of tankbustas surviving more than 3 maybe 4 turns, even with the new vehicles stats. A single bomb squig maybe adds not that much but two of them are a buff for the unit. They were invaluable even in 7th, now they look even better. Never played an 8th game, and my 2 cents are only based on considering the 8th rules and codex and how the unit worked in 7th. Eventually if the vehicles blows up (trukks are still easy to wreck) and you must remove a casualty you can even sacrifice a 10 points squig instead of a 17 points tankbusta.
Lobukia wrote: Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.
Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.
I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.
I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.
Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.
Lobukia wrote: Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.
Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.
I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.
I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.
Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.
Thats 100% your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am merely pointing out that those experts people are touting as the end all be all were the same ones saying orkz were going to be great in 7th edition. In other words, take their opinion with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind since they became the official play testers for 40k they have a vested interest in their work not being shown to be crap.
I'd say all armies got equally toned down in the streamlining process for 8th edition. From the few people in this thread who have played 8th edition Orks, they seem to be relatively balanced vs. other armies.
Elbows wrote:This is a good example of why math hammer is essentially pointless.
MathHammer can be helpful in some cases, but the fundamental problem is that it can only give you the arithmatic mean of a given outcome. In the real world, things tend more toward either end of the probability curve.
Lobukia wrote: Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.
Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.
I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.
I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.
Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.
Thats 100% your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am merely pointing out that those experts people are touting as the end all be all were the same ones saying orkz were going to be great in 7th edition. In other words, take their opinion with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind since they became the official play testers for 40k they have a vested interest in their work not being shown to be crap.
FLG has taken plenty of crap in the past as well. Remember when the ITC nerfed Eldar or Tau?
That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.
Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.
Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...
"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."
If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?
Because with Bespoke rules, you'll see this all the time? Different bespoke rule, different wording.
I don't buy your argument at all. "If a unit includes 20 or more models," does not preclude losing the bonus due to casualties. If I purchase 30 boys and lose 11 of them, my unit no longer 'includes' 20 or more boys. It now "includes" 19 boys. If it said "starts with" or "includED" then you'd have an argument.
I guarantee if you tried this at any tournament, it would get shot down in a heartbeat.
"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add a Power Klaw to each model in this unit."
Exact same spelling and wording, just changed the bonus.
You tell me...
Would you lose the Power Claw when you go under 20 or not.
So not an ork player but played a guy that has orks. Wanted to see what ork players were saying about thier army. He was pretty happy.
Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?
Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?
We won't really know until people start breaking out the hard major tournament style break lists, but to put it bluntly several of the worst armies in the game (IG, Nids, Orks) have definitely felt the buff hand.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: So not an ork player but played a guy that has orks. Wanted to see what ork players were saying about thier army. He was pretty happy.
Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?
Most of this thread is theory crafting,
and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.
and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.
I see they dont realize a reduction does not necessarily mean a reduction in status, although an understandable mistake to make given where orks have been for a while.
and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.
I see they dont realize a reduction does not necessarily mean a reduction in status, although an understandable mistake to make given where orks have been for a while.
The problem is most of them either wanted Orks to be buffed to 7th Ed Eldar levels (i.e: broken to all hell) so they can get some measure of "revenge", or they're so used to being the bottom rung army that the idea that their codexes might actually be good (not broken, but good) makes them fear that they can no longer complain about other people's wins. Not to mention a lot more people are still stuck in the mentality of 7th while trying to make their armies work. Change sucks, but it happens.
That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.
Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.
Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...
"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."
If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?
Because with Bespoke rules, you'll see this all the time? Different bespoke rule, different wording.
I don't buy your argument at all. "If a unit includes 20 or more models," does not preclude losing the bonus due to casualties. If I purchase 30 boys and lose 11 of them, my unit no longer 'includes' 20 or more boys. It now "includes" 19 boys. If it said "starts with" or "includED" then you'd have an argument.
I guarantee if you tried this at any tournament, it would get shot down in a heartbeat.
"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add a Power Klaw to each model in this unit."
Exact same spelling and wording, just changed the bonus.
You tell me...
Would you lose the Power Claw when you go under 20 or not.
English, includes is the present tense, it means at this time. Included would be past tense, so if the unit included 30 models, then as long as that True/False statement is met, the variable is valid. But includes would mean "at this specific time does the unit include (have) 20+ models?"
So in short, to answer your question, yes you lose the Power Claw once the unit falls below 20.
Words mean things, they are not relative. I agree it would be nice if GW would use the same verbiage across the board, or better yet were totally clear. For example:
If this unit contains/has/includes X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit enters the battlefied with X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit falls below X models, Then it gets (stated penalty or bonus)
etc.
I am the first who will love keep the extra attack even if they fall bellow 20.... But we need be serious, everyone knows that do that is twist the rules in an overwhelming way.
It is more than evident the "spirit" and goal of the rule. And clearly you lost the bonus when the unir is below of 20.
Franarok wrote: I am the first who will love keep the extra attack even if they fall bellow 20.... But we need be serious, everyone knows that do that is twist the rules in an overwhelming way.
It is more than evident the "spirit" and goal of the rule. And clearly you lost the bonus when the unir is below of 20.
Well I think the idea of the rule is to force your enemy to make hard choices.
Bring 2-3 squads of 30 Boyz, then bring some fast movers with or Transports with Boyz you now have to choose between blowing up vehicles and letting the 10 man squads in at full hp or shoot at the 30 man squads so they don't get that extra attack.
That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.
Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.
Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...
"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."
If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?
Because with Bespoke rules, you'll see this all the time? Different bespoke rule, different wording.
I don't buy your argument at all. "If a unit includes 20 or more models," does not preclude losing the bonus due to casualties. If I purchase 30 boys and lose 11 of them, my unit no longer 'includes' 20 or more boys. It now "includes" 19 boys. If it said "starts with" or "includED" then you'd have an argument.
I guarantee if you tried this at any tournament, it would get shot down in a heartbeat.
"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add a Power Klaw to each model in this unit."
Exact same spelling and wording, just changed the bonus.
You tell me...
Would you lose the Power Claw when you go under 20 or not.
Ha! What a ridiculous argument. As if that rule would ever exist. Believe what you want, my friend. See how far it gets you on the tabletop. Your interpretation will never fly at a tournament and will probably lose you opponents in a friendly setting.
And Blacksteel you make no sense. I keep bringing up pre-release 7th opinions? no I actually brought those up and pointed to how the reviewers were all positive about the Ork release and how it would do in 7th. Thats completely relevant because guess what? THAT IS EXACTLY WHATS HAPPENING AGAIN! Jesus thats a hard point to miss.
How many 8th edition games have I played yet? None, my area won't be playing 8th for at least another 2 weeks. So just like the rest of you I am using speculation based on the limited information available, it just so happens my opinion differs widely from yours and Davou and a handful of others. Of course I have been playing orks for a long time and I am now used to GW screwing the Ork faction as hard as possible so I will openly admit I am jaded. But from what I can see so far Orks aren't going to be doing well this edition, just like last edition.
Were they playing games before 7th released? Or were they speculating/hoping? The key difference here is that outside groups were playtesting the game prior to the release. That makes their opinions somewhat more credible than pre-release speculation. Jesus that's a significant difference to miss.
Additionally, the rules had been leaked for about a week before I posted this. Many people were playing games, judging by the number of battle reports that started appearing from non-insiders. I had played some test games with various armies before I posted that response. Clearly you had some kind of access to the rules to be doing all of the theorycrafting you've been doing, so it was a natural question: Was this all theory or had you actually seen something in actual games. If you had run into something in a game I was interested in what happened. By admission you had not, yet we're supposed to take your theory seriously? Why? As for "Just like the rest of you" - er, no. Some of the "rest of us" have been playing some games. Lots of people have. Googling "8th edition ork battle report" gives me at least ten results right now and that's just people taking the time to post theirs up.
So how about now? It's been another week - have you played your orks or against someone else's orks yet? Or are you still waiting for this weekend? As the loudest voice on here proclaiming orks as a failed army in this edition I'm actually really curious as to how you feel about them after a game or three.
Were they playing games before 7th released? Or were they speculating/hoping? The key difference here is that outside groups were playtesting the game prior to the release. That makes their opinions somewhat more credible than pre-release speculation. Jesus that's a significant difference to miss.
Additionally, the rules had been leaked for about a week before I posted this. Many people were playing games, judging by the number of battle reports that started appearing from non-insiders. I had played some test games with various armies before I posted that response. Clearly you had some kind of access to the rules to be doing all of the theorycrafting you've been doing, so it was a natural question: Was this all theory or had you actually seen something in actual games. If you had run into something in a game I was interested in what happened. By admission you had not, yet we're supposed to take your theory seriously? Why? As for "Just like the rest of you" - er, no. Some of the "rest of us" have been playing some games. Lots of people have. Googling "8th edition ork battle report" gives me at least ten results right now and that's just people taking the time to post theirs up.
So how about now? It's been another week - have you played your orks or against someone else's orks yet? Or are you still waiting for this weekend? As the loudest voice on here proclaiming orks as a failed army in this edition I'm actually really curious as to how you feel about them after a game or three.
Well for starters, FLG wrote their Ork Codex/supplement review a month after the codex was released so clearly they had enough time to playtest a bit, and yet they still made their prediction and it was HORRIBLY WRONG.
Since that post I actually did play a game against a Smurf who thought a gunline army with ZERO support from troops would do well against an Ork army, keeping in mind that this tactic has never worked for Marine players against orkz, ever. I had my Kommandos infiltrate into his rear lines and feth up his armored units for a turn while he quickly ran his other units back to support and i caught them with Stormboyz and BW Boyz. So YAY! Another ork win. Only problem? had I faced a competent opponent this could have gone horribly wrong. For starters he shot 2 (TWO!!!) Pred annihilators at....a unit of stormboyz, keeping in mind I had 2 battlewagonz on the table and other treats. Had he actually targeted the correct units with the correct weapons it would have been a completely different game.
So overall I was impressed with how nice/cheap Kommandos are, how crap stormboyz still are (They stayed the same just 1pt cheaper, they are only better because everything else got worse) ohh, and I am happy to confirm that BWs suck in every way possible except as a transport. Dont waste the points on guns.
So i'll reserve my full opinion on orks for 8th until i play more games but I'll gladly keep my speculation that we are going to suck like 6th and 7th edition.
Have to agree with SemperMortis; Orks are going to have some issues this edition.
It's fun to believe a new edition and a positive direction will mean that the Orkz can get back to having a reasonable chance on the table; but balance has never been Games Workshop strong suit, so I don't know why we're still expecting it even now. Vehicles are tougher to remove; which means they clog up your movement lanes for longer, and Orks lack any sort of anti-character option (sniper). Plus, Cover/Flamers are incredibly strong against the Boyz, and will be everywhere (especially flamers).
The Green Tide may be better now; but once people start adding anti-infantry back into their lists (thanks Tyranids) and learning how to properly position their transport spam, I think the initial wave of success will die off. Plus, it's not like there isn't enough Imperial firepower from Razorbacks/Taurox/Devastators to mow down the troops anyways. - I'm concerned about Mechanized lists in general now for the Orkz, I hope Green Tide isn't the only way to play.
We'll see what happens; I'd love to be proven wrong about these feelings.
BWs are transports, they've always been transports and always will be. Orks hit on 5s, the only effective shooting they can have is a spam of rokkits, lootas and bikes other than mek gunz, which are controlled by grots and hit on4s. Maybe even flash gitz with their new AP-2. BWs now are very nice as they can carry more units.
Stormboyz are very good now, cheaper, don't die while footslogging and zagstruk is become quite deadly. Of course you need at least 30 as they are basically faster boyz. Mobs on foot never reach combat against any decent shooty army.
Blackie wrote: BWs are transports, they've always been transports and always will be. Orks hit on 5s, the only effective shooting they can have is a spam of rokkits, lootas and bikes other than mek gunz, which are controlled by grots and hit on4s. Maybe even flash gitz with their new AP-2. BWs now are very nice as they can carry more units.
Stormboyz are very good now, cheaper, don't die while footslogging and zagstruk is become quite deadly. Of course you need at least 30 as they are basically faster boyz. Mobs on foot never reach combat against any decent shooty army.
Kommandos are very nice and useful now, indeed.
Yep, but Battlewagons used to be able to mount 4 rokkitz and a Kannon for 30pts which put out 5 S8 shots a turn. At BS2 your statistically only going to hit 1 time per turn but hey, not a bad trade off in points, especially when you can't even get 3 tankbustas for that price. even with that though, Battlewagons, which are supposed to be our version of a MBT are little better then glorified transports, whats worse, is that with the rules/points changes, Battlewagons are going to replace Trukkz.
I am not sold on Lootas yet, I haven't had a chance to play them yet but realistically they aren't any better then before, the only difference is they get that -1 AP so they are slightly better at killing MEQs and TEQs.
Stormboyz are the same as last edition just slightly cheaper...they actually lost attacks because of the new rules. I mean they dont have to have a warboss nearby but they didn't need to last edition either, they just had to wait until Turn 2 to waaagh.
Basically the only real buffs I saw from our codex (beyond the general buffs everyone got like vehicles)were a select few units like Kommandos and Warbuggies/trax.
Blackie wrote: BWs are transports, they've always been transports and always will be. Orks hit on 5s, the only effective shooting they can have is a spam of rokkits, lootas and bikes other than mek gunz, which are controlled by grots and hit on4s. Maybe even flash gitz with their new AP-2. BWs now are very nice as they can carry more units.
Stormboyz are very good now, cheaper, don't die while footslogging and zagstruk is become quite deadly. Of course you need at least 30 as they are basically faster boyz. Mobs on foot never reach combat against any decent shooty army.
Blackie wrote: BWs are transports, they've always been transports and always will be. Orks hit on 5s, the only effective shooting they can have is a spam of rokkits, lootas and bikes other than mek gunz, which are controlled by grots and hit on4s. Maybe even flash gitz with their new AP-2. BWs now are very nice as they can carry more units.
Stormboyz are very good now, cheaper, don't die while footslogging and zagstruk is become quite deadly. Of course you need at least 30 as they are basically faster boyz. Mobs on foot never reach combat against any decent shooty army.
Kommandos are very nice and useful now, indeed.
Yep, but Battlewagons used to be able to mount 4 rokkitz and a Kannon for 30pts which put out 5 S8 shots a turn. At BS2 your statistically only going to hit 1 time per turn but hey, not a bad trade off in points, especially when you can't even get 3 tankbustas for that price. even with that though, Battlewagons, which are supposed to be our version of a MBT are little better then glorified transports, whats worse, is that with the rules/points changes, Battlewagons are going to replace Trukkz.
I am not sold on Lootas yet, I haven't had a chance to play them yet but realistically they aren't any better then before, the only difference is they get that -1 AP so they are slightly better at killing MEQs and TEQs.
Stormboyz are the same as last edition just slightly cheaper...they actually lost attacks because of the new rules. I mean they dont have to have a warboss nearby but they didn't need to last edition either, they just had to wait until Turn 2 to waaagh.
Basically the only real buffs I saw from our codex (beyond the general buffs everyone got like vehicles)were a select few units like Kommandos and Warbuggies/trax.
So universal +1 S and hitting on 3s isn't a buff? Just asking because to me those are huge for all our units. Also the elimination of penalties for multi-charging, in 7th multicharging cost you attacks, and a point of Strength.
As for the Battlewagon, I see it as being back to its 5th ed role, transport + deffrolla. 6 attacks hitting on a 2+ with S8 and AP -2 is pretty good for a very cheap upgrade. I agree on the guns basically not being worth it. The mobile fortress rules mostly seem to be for benefits for its riders. SO lootas can ride around and shoot with no penalty.
As for Lootas, damage 2 for them is nice, and command points makes their shots more consistent.
I am not sold on Lootas yet, I haven't had a chance to play them yet but realistically they aren't any better then before, the only difference is they get that -1 AP so they are slightly better at killing MEQs and TEQs.
They also cause 2 points of damage, which makes them quite deadly against T5-6 vehicles, like they were before, but in an edition in which wrecking even a light transport is not that easy. And they can use a 30 boyz mob leadership, which means that we are not forced to play MSU lootas anymore. Eventually you can take the spearhead detachment with 3 min units of 5 lootas and a HQ to add another command point for not a lot of points, while gaining some decent firepower.They're not overpowered of course but not a bad unit.
Stormboyz, like any other assault oriented unit in 40k lost one attack but they strike first if they charge making them cause the same damage than before, probably even more as they don't suffer casualties against units that used to have better initiative. They can even assault flyers now. I prefer boyz in transports though as in the open orks are too squishy but with footslogging boyz that never reach combat and bikes that are become too expensive they certainly have more usage now.
Blackie wrote: BWs are transports, they've always been transports and always will be. Orks hit on 5s, the only effective shooting they can have is a spam of rokkits, lootas and bikes other than mek gunz, which are controlled by grots and hit on4s. Maybe even flash gitz with their new AP-2. BWs now are very nice as they can carry more units.
Stormboyz are very good now, cheaper, don't die while footslogging and zagstruk is become quite deadly. Of course you need at least 30 as they are basically faster boyz. Mobs on foot never reach combat against any decent shooty army.
Kommandos are very nice and useful now, indeed.
Dakkajets got pretty good for shooting.
they got better, now what are they? 18 shots at BS3 (hitting on 4s) so 9 hits of S6, nothing to sneeze at, don't get me wrong. But the platform actually became less durable since Most armies can now reliably hit it on 4s and 5s instead of 6s.
English, includes is the present tense, it means at this time. Included would be past tense, so if the unit included 30 models, then as long as that True/False statement is met, the variable is valid. But includes would mean "at this specific time does the unit include (have) 20+ models?"
So in short, to answer your question, yes you lose the Power Claw once the unit falls below 20.
Words mean things, they are not relative. I agree it would be nice if GW would use the same verbiage across the board, or better yet were totally clear. For example:
If this unit contains/has/includes X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit enters the battlefied with X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit falls below X models, Then it gets (stated penalty or bonus)
etc.
It's a check, Does it have X. Change Y.
It doesn't say when it loses X, unchange Y.
It doesn't tell you to actively do the check.
It says that for other example. While is a active check.
As someone else posted, there is another one that tells you to check at the start of every fight phase.
This one tells you to check ONCE! Does it include? If yes, Stat has been altered.
Again why even word it to Alter the Stat? It could have been written 1000x better ways to do an active check. Hell, even if they said same opening and said "Each model has an extra attack during the fight phase" or even used the same wording that is on Chainsword.
This is telling you to alter it's core stats.
Finally no, if you paid for your Power Klaws. You would instantly be on the other side of the argument. So don't lie that you would be in favor of 750 points of wargear disappearing.
It's a check, Does it have X. Change Y.
It doesn't say when it loses X, unchange Y.
It doesn't tell you to actively do the check.
It says that for other example. While is a active check.
As someone else posted, there is another one that tells you to check at the start of every fight phase.
This one tells you to check ONCE! Does it include? If yes, Stat has been altered.
Again why even word it to Alter the Stat? It could have been written 1000x better ways to do an active check. Hell, even if they said same opening and said "Each model has an extra attack during the fight phase" or even used the same wording that is on Chainsword.
This is telling you to alter it's core stats.
You are making up a bunch of terminology that does not exist in the rules. It does not tell you to check once, twice or any number of times.
The rule says:
"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add 1 to the Attack characteristic of each model in the unit."
If your unit does not include 20 or more models for any reason you may not add 1 to the attack characteristic.
You get to add an attack as long as the requirement for that attack is true. You do not add an extra attack if the requirement for that attack is false.
Simple.
There is also a good reason why the wording on chainswords differ: You may only use that extra attack to attack with that very weapon, while added Attacks can freely be used with the nobz' PK or BC.
In contrast, Thrakka's Great Waaagh! rule also adds +1 to the Attack characteristic for everyone within 6" of him while fighting. Those attacks are also lost right after Thrakka moves further than 6" away, dies or simply stops fighting.
Finally no, if you paid for your Power Klaws. You would instantly be on the other side of the argument. So don't lie that you would be in favor of 750 points of wargear disappearing.
Congratulation, you have proven that your example was terrible. You also called someone a liar and basically stated that you would misinterpret rules on purpose as long as you get a big enough benefit from it. I suggest you take this to YMDC if you are still in disagreement.
Again why even word it to Alter the Stat? It could have been written 1000x better ways to do an active check. Hell, even if they said same opening and said "Each model has an extra attack during the fight phase" or even used the same wording that is on Chainsword.
This is telling you to alter it's core stats.
Finally no, if you paid for your Power Klaws. You would instantly be on the other side of the argument. So don't lie that you would be in favor of 750 points of wargear disappearing.
But this isn't paying anything. It's free bonus so your PK arqument is flawed.
And as for why they would write it like this? They don't have unified wording(more's the pity). And we are talking about rulewriters who managed to blow up their rules bad enough that as it is by RAW assault weapons don't actually confern any bonuses...
Sorry if I don't have faith in them not writing solid rules when they have shown already inability to do so.
English, includes is the present tense, it means at this time. Included would be past tense, so if the unit included 30 models, then as long as that True/False statement is met, the variable is valid. But includes would mean "at this specific time does the unit include (have) 20+ models?"
So in short, to answer your question, yes you lose the Power Claw once the unit falls below 20.
Words mean things, they are not relative. I agree it would be nice if GW would use the same verbiage across the board, or better yet were totally clear. For example:
If this unit contains/has/includes X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit enters the battlefied with X models or more, Then it gets (stated bonus).
If this unit falls below X models, Then it gets (stated penalty or bonus)
etc.
It's a check, Does it have X. Change Y.
It doesn't say when it loses X, unchange Y.
It doesn't tell you to actively do the check.
It says that for other example. While is a active check.
As someone else posted, there is another one that tells you to check at the start of every fight phase.
This one tells you to check ONCE! Does it include? If yes, Stat has been altered.
Again why even word it to Alter the Stat? It could have been written 1000x better ways to do an active check. Hell, even if they said same opening and said "Each model has an extra attack during the fight phase" or even used the same wording that is on Chainsword.
This is telling you to alter it's core stats.
Finally no, if you paid for your Power Klaws. You would instantly be on the other side of the argument. So don't lie that you would be in favor of 750 points of wargear disappearing.
Is your argument really that anything which says it adds to a characteristic is permanent once you acquire the bonus? Do Orks get +1 Attack characteristic permanently every time they charge while within 6" of Ghazagkull? Other factions also have numerous abilities that give bonuses to characteristics for various triggers.
You are making up a bunch of terminology that does not exist in the rules. It does not tell you to check once, twice or any number of times.
The rule says:
"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add 1 to the Attack characteristic of each model in the unit."
If your unit does not include 20 or more models for any reason you may not add 1 to the attack characteristic.
You get to add an attack as long as the requirement for that attack is true. You do not add an extra attack if the requirement for that attack is false.
Simple.
There is also a good reason why the wording on chainswords differ: You may only use that extra attack to attack with that very weapon, while added Attacks can freely be used with the nobz' PK or BC.
In contrast, Thrakka's Great Waaagh! rule also adds +1 to the Attack characteristic for everyone within 6" of him while fighting. Those attacks are also lost right after Thrakka moves further than 6" away, dies or simply stops fighting.
Finally no, if you paid for your Power Klaws. You would instantly be on the other side of the argument. So don't lie that you would be in favor of 750 points of wargear disappearing.
Congratulation, you have proven that your example was terrible. You also called someone a liar and basically stated that you would misinterpret rules on purpose as long as you get a big enough benefit from it. I suggest you take this to YMDC if you are still in disagreement.
I'm not making up terminology
The word "IF" is a check
In contrast to Thrakka it has the word "While"
The example was good BECAUSE it was impossible to be against it, going against it basically discredited the person.
As in, if you agree that 750 points suddenly completely disappearing is perfectly fine, then you don't have much ground to stand on.
And as for why they would write it like this? They don't have unified wording(more's the pity). And we are talking about rulewriters who managed to blow up their rules bad enough that as it is by RAW assault weapons don't actually confern any bonuses...
Sorry if I don't have faith in them not writing solid rules when they have shown already inability to do so.
I'm not making up terminology
The word "IF" is a check
In contrast to Thrakka it has the word "While"
This is plain wrong. Thrakkas rule also has an IF and does not even include the word "while". If you're making up rules, I suggest you use the proper forum.
The example was good BECAUSE it was impossible to be against it, going against it basically discredited the person.
As in, if you agree that 750 points suddenly completely disappearing is perfectly fine, then you don't have much ground to stand on.
Is that so? Let's ignore that in your interpretation the effect of a rule actually changes the condition of the rule - which to does not, ever, in any kind of rule system.
Then I can make a better rule:
Lets assume the rule reads ""If this unit includes 20 or more models, whenever one is removed as casualty you must ship it to the dakkadakka poster jidmah."
Following your non-logic, I have invalidated your argument, because you could not possible want to send me all 30 boyz instead of just 11.
I'll be awaiting your models, contact me for the shipping address
So, face it: You are wrong. Your only arguments are misquoted rules, a rule that does not exist and insults. You objectively have no ground to stand on.
If you add +1 to your Attack characteristic for a boyz mob with 19 or less surviving models you are outright cheating and should be treated accordingly.
This is plain wrong. Thrakkas rule also has an IF and does not even include the word "while". If you're making up rules, I suggest you use the proper forum.
Is that so? Let's ignore that in your interpretation the effect of a rule actually changes the condition of the rule - which to does not, ever, in any kind of rule system.
Then I can make a better rule:
Lets assume the rule reads ""If this unit includes 20 or more models, whenever one is removed as casualty you must ship it to the dakkadakka poster jidmah."
Following your non-logic, I have invalidated your argument, because you could not possible want to send me all 30 boyz instead of just 11.
I'll be awaiting your models, contact me for the shipping address
whenever /ONE/ is removed as a casualty you must ship /IT/ to blah
Even in your own example you can't even write rules worse than GW it seems...
If you use the word IT, then you refer to the subject that it just occurred to. So in YOUR OWN EXAMPLE, you would only send the /ONE/ model to you. Which would be perfectly possible.
So, face it: You are wrong. Your only arguments are misquoted rules, a rule that does not exist and insults. You objectively have no ground to stand on.
If you add +1 to your Attack characteristic for a boyz mob with 19 or less surviving models you are outright cheating and should be treated accordingly.
Your arguments so far have been wrong, and I have yet to insult anyone.
Your contributions to the thread have yet to add anything of substance to the subject.
Pedroig and tneva82, are the main ones who have contributed. You have so far you only added pointless abrasiveness.
That is still not an insult by the way.
Something else I have noticed that is a bit....annoying.
Vanilla Marines seem to have significantly better Psychic powers then Orkz.
Now stay with me here.
Orkz have
Eadbanger: Get ridiculously close to your opponent and then roll a D6 and if that number is higher then the toughness value then you kill that model. Not bad, except that Everything worth doing this to will be T4+ (Characters) and will only work on a roll of 5 or 6. Not exactly something to write home about.
Warpath: This is good for orks. at WC 7 you select an ork unit within 6in of the Weirdboy and give it +1 attacks for that turn.
Da Jump: This is good to, Deepstrike any unit anywhere you want 9in away from an enemy unit. not bad.
Mehreens get
Veil Of time: 18in range, pick a unit and they get to reroll charges and advance AND if they are ever charged, they get to swing first.
Null Zone: NICE, Any unit within 6 of the psyker can't take Invul saves and any psychic tests they do are HALVED!
Might of Heros: This is what annoys me. For WC6 select a unit 12in away and they get +1 attacks, +1 Strength and +1 Toughness.
That last one.....what the heck. Its Warpath on SUPER steroids and its cheaper AND has longer range.
SemperMortis wrote: Something else I have noticed that is a bit....annoying.
Vanilla Marines seem to have significantly better Psychic powers then Orkz.
Now stay with me here.
Orkz have
Eadbanger: Get ridiculously close to your opponent and then roll a D6 and if that number is higher then the toughness value then you kill that model. Not bad, except that Everything worth doing this to will be T4+ (Characters) and will only work on a roll of 5 or 6. Not exactly something to write home about.
Warpath: This is good for orks. at WC 7 you select an ork unit within 6in of the Weirdboy and give it +1 attacks for that turn.
Da Jump: This is good to, Deepstrike any unit anywhere you want 9in away from an enemy unit. not bad.
Mehreens get
Veil Of time: 18in range, pick a unit and they get to reroll charges and advance AND if they are ever charged, they get to swing first.
Null Zone: NICE, Any unit within 6 of the psyker can't take Invul saves and any psychic tests they do are HALVED!
Might of Heros: This is what annoys me. For WC6 select a unit 12in away and they get +1 attacks, +1 Strength and +1 Toughness.
That last one.....what the heck. Its Warpath on SUPER steroids and its cheaper AND has longer range.
You're not giving 'eadbanger enough credit. There are plenty of powerful T3 characters out their that want nothing to do with a 50/50 chance to get aced outright, which lets you control their positioning even if you can't just grab 'em.
Veil of time isn't fantastically useful for space marines. It's good but most of the dedicated close combat stuff already gets reroll charges, can't charge and advance in the same turn, and will have initiative anyway because they either deep striked or came out of a transport.
Nullzone is great, no arguments there.
Might of heroes doesn't do as much as you'd think. Only dedicated assault units really get anything out of it and you're only going to be buffing 5-10 models that cost more than a 30 blob of boyz.
I think your issue is that you're looking at the buffs as if the armies benefit from them in the same way. Any Ork unit gains a lot from warpath but only dedicated close combat units care about might of heroes. A unit of 10 JP assault marines with CCW/BP is comparable in price to a 30 brick of boyz (if I remeber correctly) and gains 10 attacks +1S (only makes a difference for T4 or T8 and isn't a huge benefit even then) and +1T (Only matters for S4 or 8 and not that much tbh) a unit of 30 boyz gains 30 attacks. And 20 attacks is much more valuable than +1S +1T on 10 models.
And let's be real, a T4 blob of 30 boyz with...what...120-150 S5 attacks that can deepstrike anywhere on the board would be hilariously busted, especially considering how easy it is to give things rerolls nowadays.
Eadbanger is trash, mostly because it targets the closest visible enemy model. On the weirdboy who is not terribly mobile I don't really see getting much out of it. Even against a T3 character you are looking at a 50-50 shot after casting.
Beyond that you are right that powers need to be looked at in context to their army. If we had might of heros it would be broken on our large squads. S5 T5 boyz with 4 attacks each. It is also important to note that a libby is 30 points more than a weird boy.
Their powers are good if they are running a single big close combat squad, but for most marine squads they are only so so.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There's also the fact that the Weirdboy is a far better caster then the Librarian due to the +1 per 10 models, even with the chance of perils of 12+
Giving him powerful abilities and a near guaranteed chance of getting off powers would be a bit much no?
I agree with you entirely, but I fully expect someone to show up and call you an idiot because of how much more durable the librarian is, or hsince his car is cheaper
or even have a tie some months where there are two Presiduntz
or are you back to thinking perhaps people have been paid to disagree with your take on it?
)
