There have been a lot of conscript related threads recently so I thought I'd help out by making another one. I've seen a few workable solutions mentioned:
1) Conscripts become 4pts each (and possibly commanders or commissars could get a point increase too if deemed fair) 2) Conscripts can't take orders (or require a 4+ to pass orders or similar) 3) Commissars 'summary execution' rule doesn't work as well with conscripts (say it halves the number of casualties taken, or they lose D6 casualties instead of just the 1) 4) 1 Conscript squad can only be taken per two infantry squads in your army (or some similar army-structure approach to limiting them) 5) Conscript squad size lowered (say to 20 models or 30 models) 6) Lower their armour save to 6+
If anyone has any more bright ideas I'll add them to the poll. If they're not too stupid that is. I personally think they should be nerfed a bit to preserve game balance, and I'm not too bothered how they do it cos it won't stop me fielding 200+ guardsmen in a list!
I'm mainly interested in the results of the poll so feel free to turn it into another massive rage thread
According to the calculations in the conscript thread, Orders are the only reason they're really good.
My thoughts on everything else:
1) At 4ppm, you either have to bump Guard squads up, and therefore half the army (heavy weapon squads, special weapon squads, veterans, scions, etc). or else you will never see conscripts, since they'd be exactly the same price for -1 WS, -1BS, -3 LD statline
2) Orders are what make conscripts too good, as proven with mathhammer in the other thread.
3) This is a nerf to the durability of conscripts, and that's their entire purpose. If you remove their durability, you remove them from the game, since it's certainly not their firepower that people bring them for.
4) This is fine too, I suppose, though I have a feeling the platoon structure was eliminated to help Guard get more CPs, since they're always going to have a ton of drops.
5) This would be okay too, I guess, but I am not sure it solves the problem. Are 5 30-man units any easier to deal with than 3 50 man units? All this does is make them require more orders, which works, but I'd prefer a direct nerf to orders on Conscripts.
I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely. As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.
So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.
No orders or highly restricted orders would probably be enough. If something else is needed, drop max squad size to 30. You could drop them to 6+ armor, but I'm not sure that's especially necessary.
It's their ability to ignore morale that makes them a problem to me: in order to deal with the unit I need to put everything I have into it to remove the squad because if I don't my opponent will still have enough to shield his tanks from another round of combat, and when combat is your armies only real string to it's bow it makes it nigh impossible to beat Imperial Guard. Another problem with putting everything I have into the unit is that I end up with all of my units disembarked ready to be gunned down by my opponent.
Though I did think it was quite funny the last time I played conscript spam: 20 Zerkers managed to slaughter a 50 man unit of conscripts down to a single model (I rolled rather poorly) but have no fear! Before that single conscript could run off for safety, the helpful Commissar shot him in the back of the head! +1VP for me!
The problem with that is... they're just doing their job there. If conscripts could be trivially swept aside and offered negligible protection against assault, well what would there be for an IG player to do? Just show up, ask if your army is capable of turn-1 assault, then pack up their stuff and go home if the answer is "yes"?
ross-128 wrote: The problem with that is... they're just doing their job there. If conscripts could be trivially swept aside and offered negligible protection against assault, well what would there be for an IG player to do? Just show up, ask if your army is capable of turn-1 assault, then pack up their stuff and go home if the answer is "yes"?
They would still absorb 1 round of assault and mean their tanks won't wind up in combat until the end of turn two. What I don't like now is that conscripts either absorb multiple rounds of combat because they don't die from morale or you throw everything you have at them and end up with all of your squishy units sat like ducks in the middle of the battle field after killing what is basically glorified bubble wrap.
Last game I had I through everything I had into whiping out his bubble wrap but when it came back round to my turn I was down a knight and left with only 2 Zerkers. He didn't even have to move any of his models, just sit back and mulch over 1000pts of models. (The other 800 odd points got whiped by two Vendettas but Vendettas are a discussion for a different day...)
Commissar
During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model in a unit to reduce the morale test by d6
10 man squads
Ld7 Veterans lose 5 men, they will now have a 50% chance of losing 2 guys, 33% chance of losing a 3rd, and a solid 16% chance of losing a 4th
with Commissar executing 1, they will now have only an 8% chance of losing the second guy, 2% chance of losing a 3rd. That's it.
Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.
Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?
If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.
Anything that costs 4ppm or less per model should not get an armor save, period, unless you add in wargear.
Brimstone Horrors get an armour save and are 2pt each. And since their technically a pair, it's 1ppm
Technically
Brimstone Horrors only have a 6+ Armor Save...
and I doubt anyone would mind if it become a 7+ Armor Save, so his statement stands.
I can guarantee you nobody would mind if horrors became a 7+ armor save... because they get a 4+ invuln save, thus their armor save is utterly irrelevant. They're always going to roll their invuln.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.
No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.
And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.
So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.
You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.
You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.
No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.
And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.
So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.
You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.
You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.
Well I'm of the opinion that conscripts are fine and don't actually need to be changed.
So if something MUST be changed to appease the whiners, I'd prefer to make it as small a change as possible.
ross-128 wrote: Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.
Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?
If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.
And if I'm paying 1000pts for dedicated cc units (500pts of Zerkers and 500pts of Knight), I'd definitely want to be able to smash through a 150pt wall of bodies without having to use my entire army. If I wanted to get bogged down in combat for 2 turns with bubble wrap I wouldn't pay premium for the most killy cc unit in the game.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
As a LD test, conscripts without a Commissar would only have a 17% chance to successfully perform an order. With a Commissar that would go up to 72%, with a Lord Commissar it would be 83%, and Yarrick would make it 92%.
No. Commissars aren't Officers, they don't make Orders suddenly get better chances at happening. They punish units for not following Orders in the first place or for failing Morale tests.
And literally all you've done is make Lord Commissars/Commissars an even further auto-take with Conscripts. You fix nothing and encourage the same crap.
So essentially, they would be only slightly toned down when fully supported, but the Commissar would become a single point of failure because if he goes down, he takes both their battleshock resistance and their ability to execute orders reliably with him. It would also make choosing between a standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar a little more meaningful, since the Lord Commissar would bring a higher success rate on orders in addition to being a bit harder to remove.
You have no idea what you're talking about, it seems. The reason why there is a choice between a "standard Commissar and a Lord Commissar" is their battlefield roles.
You take a Lord Commissar if you are lacking an HQ choice and want Elites open for Scions, you take a Commissar if you give no cares.
You want an actual change or meaningful system overhaul? Make Infantry Squads worth taking over Conscript Squads.
Well I'm of the opinion that conscripts are fine and don't actually need to be changed.
So if something MUST be changed to appease the whiners, I'd prefer to make it as small a change as possible.
So your suggestion is to bring back the frigging Orders on a Leadership test?
That's your idea of "as small a change as possible"?
ross-128 wrote: Anything can absorb 1 round of assault as long as it occupies enough board space to catch it. A 1 round stall only has to force you to stop and swing at it, even if it gets wiped in the process.
Why would I pay 150 points to absorb 1 round of assault when an infantry squad can do it with 40, or a SWS with sniper rifles could do it for 30?
If I'm spending 150 points on a wall of bodies, I'd definitely want it to buy me more than 1 turn.
And if I'm paying 1000pts for dedicated cc units (500pts of Zerkers and 500pts of Knight), I'd definitely want to be able to smash through a 150pt wall of bodies without having to use my entire army. If I wanted to get bogged down in combat for 2 turns with bubble wrap I wouldn't pay premium for the most killy cc unit in the game.
That doesn't change the fact that they're just doing their job. I'm sorry that you don't get to auto-win against any list that can't beat you in CC.
Because let's face it: the instant you reach cc with that list, you win. If nothing can stop you from reaching cc, then the outcome of the battle is predetermined. Your opponent might as well just concede the moment he sees your list. It'd save a lot of time, sure, but that doesn't sound particularly fun.
The conscripts are there to make sure a game actually happens and some dice get rolled.
So your suggestion is to bring back the frigging Orders on a Leadership test?
That's your idea of "as small a change as possible"?
Only for Conscripts, who as you mentioned will always be escorted by a Commissar anyway.
So the rest of the army stays at a 100% pass rate. The Conscripts get bumped down to a 72% pass rate, that you can pay points to raise to 83% or 92%. Until the Commissar dies, at which point the Conscripts were going to quickly become worthless anyway.
So yes, that's small. It's miniscule compared to the "nuke it from orbit" changes that the whiners here are proposing.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
HA! Oh man, I really needed that laugh, thanks. I can't speak for Canticles, but how can you possibly think that Markerlights are better than Orders? How can you think that Orders are bad or need to be reworked? Orders let you fire twice as many shots, rerolls 1s to hit or to wound, move faster, immediately attack in CC out of sequence, and shoot after falling back or advancing. You just have to declare them and they happen, and the units that provide them are cheap as hell.
More on topic, remove the ability for Conscripts to get Orders. Its fluffy (they're a bunch of random joes who got yoked up by the Imperium, given a lasgun and flak armor, and tossed onto a battlefield with no training and told to go off and do great things) and it would solve the main problem with them, IMO. They're meant to be a bubble wrap unit who, when paired with a commissar, are annoying as hell to remove. That's fine, let them keep doing that. But don't let them be effective at anything else. They should not be doing anything but screening and taking up space on the table, not at their points cost. You want them to be able to receive orders? Then they need to shoot up in price, being only a point or two less than a regular guardsman.
Don't know if they need to be reduced to 30 max size from 50, but I can see the argument for it, especially since as far as I'm aware, 30 man units is the max unit size for the other horde armies (Orks, Nids, etc.).
ross-128 wrote: That doesn't change the fact that they're just doing their job. I'm sorry that you don't get to auto-win against any list that can't beat you in CC.
Because let's face it: the instant you reach cc with that list, you win. If nothing can stop you from reaching cc, then the outcome of the battle is predetermined. Your opponent might as well just concede the moment he sees your list. It'd save a lot of time, sure, but that doesn't sound particularly fun.
The conscripts are there to make sure a game actually happens and some dice get rolled.
Actually it's an auto-loss at the moment verus that Guard list. What would make for a fun, interesting game would be if it only required half as many troops to take out the conscripts, that way at least some of my units can make it into cc. As is, Punishers + Battle Cannons and SoB flamers mean I reach his gunline with 1-2 models (and not the big ones) and even if I did reach his gunline with my cc units he still has SoB/Inquisitorial units to counter charge me.
Conscripts are an extremely cheap barrier that means cc armies have to weather 2-3 rounds of shooting without really doing any damage which will leave most cc armies completely gutted and the gunline unscathed.
Personally, I think Conscripts are fine as-is. They do what the IG is supposed to do: hold their ground and whittle down the enemy with massed flashlight fire. They might be actually the only IG unit that does this to be honest.
AtoMaki wrote: Personally, I think Conscripts are fine as-is. They do what the IG is supposed to do: hold their ground and whittle down the enemy with massed flashlight fire. They might be actually the only IG unit that does this to be honest.
Pretty much. Many of the games Ive played in saw my regular and vet squads get chewed up turn 1 if not in a transport. Conscripts are the only thing that can have enough fire power left for me to shoot back and move around troop wise.
Conscripts are an extremely cheap barrier that means cc armies have to weather 2-3 rounds of shooting without really doing any damage which will leave most cc armies completely gutted and the gunline unscathed.
This is spot on.
There needs to be a better balance between melee and gunline. Right now, IG is far too strong.
That doesn't change the fact that they're just doing their job. I'm sorry that you don't get to auto-win against any list that can't beat you in CC.
Because let's face it: the instant you reach cc with that list, you win. If nothing can stop you from reaching cc, then the outcome of the battle is predetermined. Your opponent might as well just concede the moment he sees your list. It'd save a lot of time, sure, but that doesn't sound particularly fun.
The conscripts are there to make sure a game actually happens and some dice get rolled.
This is basically the problem I have with the opposition to Conscripts.
I think it's just people upset that some of their soldier guys have to die for them to play the game. One guy once told me, straight up, last edition, that a Leman Russ Demolisher was OP because it ignored Terminator armorsaves, and Terminators aren't supposed to die. I've also been told anything with Ignores Cover is OP because it ignores the Tideline Shieldwall.
So, perhaps my experience is a bit colored, but considering I haven't seen 50 of them last more than one turn, except in a single game against a pile of Grey Knight Terminators. I'm willing to say "Okay, under Orders their offensive output is running drastically better than it should be point-for-point," and accept changes in that department, but not to their survivability, because the math shows that, without orders and with a commissar, their cumulative toughness and offensive power comes out to be fairly even compared to Space Marine Tactical Marines [less killy, slightly more resilient, per point]. Conscripts don't outperform Space Marines in every aspect until they're under the effect of Orders.
As an addendum, I rarely see the conscript's shooting have an effect, though the following process: Step 1, charge with Flyrant. Step 2, charge with Genestealers/Hormagaunts. The Flyrant eats the overwatch, and locks it off, then the melee unit obliterates the Conscripts and tries to consolidate as far as possible.
And, of course a melee army should have to brave 2-3 turns of shooting to win the game. Look at it this way: in order for a shooting army to have a chance against a melee army, the shooting army must kill X% of a melee army before the melee army makes CQC. X is less than 100%, but probably around 75%, depending on the power of the assault units. Even if only a few melee units make it, the shooting army basically has nothing left to do but wait for the game to end and hope their stuff is still around and in the right position, because once in combat, tanks and artillery don't do anything but wait to die [one of the reasons the Baneblades and other super-heavies are so powerful]. So there needs to be a decent chance to kill a big number of assault units before the assault units engage the tanks and artillery is close combat, yes?
Now, this presents a new problem. If the shooting army has a nonzero chance to kill off 75% of an attacking melee army in 1 turn, it can also do this to another shooting army. Now, she-who-goes-first-wins. Straightforward, yes?
Therefore, in order to make a better overall game, a shooting army should take a long time to cripple an opposing army, but should also be afforded most of the time it needs to do so. If it takes 4 turns to kill off enough of the enemy to have a chance of surviving the assault, but your average assault army only give 2 turns at most to reach combat, then a unit must exist to buy the extra 1-2 turns of shooting, without also increasing the number of turns it takes for the shooting army to take a big enough chunk out of the assault army to 5 or 6. Yes?
And, even more importantly, in 8e, first turn assault is a very real thing. It also doesn't take 4-5 turns to kill off 75% of the enemy army with optimal artillery distribution, it takes 2-3, but that's balance.
Anyway, let me go to a scenario to illustrate my point:
I played Tyranids yesterday, using a conscript gunline backed by artillery, tanks, and a shadowsword. My opponent used a pair of Mawlocs, a pair of Flyrants, a unit of hormagaunts, a unit of Genestealers, a unit of Hive Guard, and Tyrannocytes for unit delivery. The Mawlocs were inconsequential, and the points spent could have been spent on something good. Anyway, he got first go, and on turn 1, assaulted and wiped out all the conscripts with his tyrants, 'stealers, and 'gaunts, almost entirely with the 'stealers. I shot him then, killing a Mawloc and the Hormagaunts, and wounding a Tyrant. He charged again, wiping out all the second defensive infantry line, and killing one of my tanks. Overwatch saves my other one, since it kills the wounded Tyrant. On my turn 2, I kill a few genestealers, and blow up the second Mawloc. He charges the shadowsword, taking half it's wounds with the genestealers, and blows up my basilisk with the remaining tyrant. I retaliate for a third time with all 2 models I have remaining, a half-health Shadowsword and a half-health Leman Russ, both about 1-2 wounds from degrading, and put down the tyrant and most of the remaining genestealers. It goes on for a turn 4 and 5, in which I finish off the Tyrannocytes and Hive Guard.
Approximately 25% of his army killed 50% of my army, and nearly also got the other 50% of my army. He made a mistake charging the basilisk instead of the Shadowsword, which won me the game, because if the Tyrant had attacked the Shadowsword he would have blown it up and won. The other 75% of his army served either to transport the 25%, or provide redundancy and a distraction for the 25%.
Each rank of infantry bought me 1 round of shooting. Each turn of shooting killed a Mawloc, an infantry unit, and about 75% of a tyrant, that's about 33% of his army per round of shooting.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
HA! Oh man, I really needed that laugh, thanks. I can't speak for Canticles, but how can you possibly think that Markerlights are better than Orders? How can you think that Orders are bad or need to be reworked?
Easy.
Orders are bad and need to be reworked. They're an archaic system which only just got changed from being based off a LD test.
They affect a single unit at a time and units can never have more than one Order issued to them per turn. Add in that the models that can issue Orders can issue one(Platoon Commander and Tempestor Prime) or two(Company Commander and Tempestor Prime with a Command Rod) a turn as part of an army that might have a dozen units that can take Orders and it becomes a very real choice of "what unit is going to help me the most with these Orders".
That's also ignoring the fact that Tanks cannot receive Orders.
Markerlights, on the other hand, provide a flat bonus that the whole of a Tau Empire army can benefit from when firing at a unit that has Markerlight counters and the benefits are cumulative.
Try reading your own book sometime.
Orders let you fire twice as many shots
For one unit's Lasguns, Laspistols, or Hot-Shot Lasguns.
rerolls 1s to hit or to wound
Two separate Orders.
move faster
Which happens during your Shooting phase and prevents you from Shooting or Charging.
immediately attack in CC out of sequence
...It's one unit of GEQ attacking in CC out of sequence. It also requires you to be within 1" of an enemy unit.
and shoot after falling back or advancing
Once again, two separate Orders.
You just have to declare them and they happen,
You have to declare them via an Officer and be within 6" of the unit you want to have affected by them.
Alternatively, you have to have a unit with a Vox-Caster within 3" that can relay the Order--in that case, the Order range becomes 18".
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't actually read the Orders system?
and the units that provide them are cheap as hell.
And those units are focused in Elites and HQs and can't issue Orders to anyone that is not part of their Regiment(which means that for Scions to receive Orders, you have to take a Tempestor Prime--and Auxilia[Ogryn and Ratlings] cannot receive Orders).
On the opposite end of the spectrum, T'au Empire Markerlights can be put en masse in two separate units(Pathfinders and Drones) and can split fire off onto multiple targets to provide more coverage.
Try it sometime rather than complain about it being underpowered versus Orders. You might see how effective they are.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
HA! Oh man, I really needed that laugh, thanks. I can't speak for Canticles, but how can you possibly think that Markerlights are better than Orders? How can you think that Orders are bad or need to be reworked?
Easy.
Orders are bad and need to be reworked. They're an archaic system which only just got changed from being based off a LD test.
They affect a single unit at a time and units can never have more than one Order issued to them per turn. Add in that the models that can issue Orders can issue one(Platoon Commander and Tempestor Prime) or two(Company Commander and Tempestor Prime with a Command Rod) a turn as part of an army that might have a dozen units that can take Orders and it becomes a very real choice of "what unit is going to help me the most with these Orders".
That's also ignoring the fact that Tanks cannot receive Orders.
Markerlights, on the other hand, provide a flat bonus that the whole of a Tau Empire army can benefit from when firing at a unit that has Markerlight counters and the benefits are cumulative.
Try reading your own book sometime.
Orders let you fire twice as many shots
For one unit's Lasguns, Laspistols, or Hot-Shot Lasguns.
rerolls 1s to hit or to wound
Two separate Orders.
move faster
Which happens during your Shooting phase and prevents you from Shooting or Charging.
immediately attack in CC out of sequence
...It's one unit of GEQ attacking in CC out of sequence. It also requires you to be within 1" of an enemy unit.
and shoot after falling back or advancing
Once again, two separate Orders.
You just have to declare them and they happen,
You have to declare them via an Officer and be within 6" of the unit you want to have affected by them.
Alternatively, you have to have a unit with a Vox-Caster within 3" that can relay the Order--in that case, the Order range becomes 18".
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't actually read the Orders system?
and the units that provide them are cheap as hell.
And those units are focused in Elites and HQs and can't issue Orders to anyone that is not part of their Regiment(which means that for Scions to receive Orders, you have to take a Tempestor Prime--and Auxilia[Ogryn and Ratlings] cannot receive Orders).
On the opposite end of the spectrum, T'au Empire Markerlights can be put en masse in two separate units(Pathfinders and Drones) and can split fire off onto multiple targets to provide more coverage.
Try it sometime rather than complain about it being underpowered versus Orders. You might see how effective they are.
First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is really, really good.
It costs me 40 points to have a 50/50 shot of doubling the fire output of 1 squad. Compare 30 points for 2 guaranteed squads doubling their fire rate. In addition Orders happen in the shooting phase, not before the turn, so units can get into position to make the maximum use out of orders.
ross-128 wrote: I'd prefer to make orders a LD test rather than remove them entirely.
They're not an LD test anymore, deal with it.
We've had Orders as a LD test for years. It was trash, and truthfully the Orders system is still abysmally bad. It needs to be reworked further to get to a point where it is on par with Canticles, Markerlights, Psyker abilities, or anything of that nature.
HA! Oh man, I really needed that laugh, thanks. I can't speak for Canticles, but how can you possibly think that Markerlights are better than Orders? How can you think that Orders are bad or need to be reworked?
Easy.
Orders are bad and need to be reworked. They're an archaic system which only just got changed from being based off a LD test.
They affect a single unit at a time and units can never have more than one Order issued to them per turn. Add in that the models that can issue Orders can issue one(Platoon Commander and Tempestor Prime) or two(Company Commander and Tempestor Prime with a Command Rod) a turn as part of an army that might have a dozen units that can take Orders and it becomes a very real choice of "what unit is going to help me the most with these Orders".
That's also ignoring the fact that Tanks cannot receive Orders.
Markerlights, on the other hand, provide a flat bonus that the whole of a Tau Empire army can benefit from when firing at a unit that has Markerlight counters and the benefits are cumulative.
Try reading your own book sometime.
Orders let you fire twice as many shots
For one unit's Lasguns, Laspistols, or Hot-Shot Lasguns.
rerolls 1s to hit or to wound
Two separate Orders.
move faster
Which happens during your Shooting phase and prevents you from Shooting or Charging.
immediately attack in CC out of sequence
...It's one unit of GEQ attacking in CC out of sequence. It also requires you to be within 1" of an enemy unit.
and shoot after falling back or advancing
Once again, two separate Orders.
You just have to declare them and they happen,
You have to declare them via an Officer and be within 6" of the unit you want to have affected by them.
Alternatively, you have to have a unit with a Vox-Caster within 3" that can relay the Order--in that case, the Order range becomes 18".
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't actually read the Orders system?
and the units that provide them are cheap as hell.
And those units are focused in Elites and HQs and can't issue Orders to anyone that is not part of their Regiment(which means that for Scions to receive Orders, you have to take a Tempestor Prime--and Auxilia[Ogryn and Ratlings] cannot receive Orders).
On the opposite end of the spectrum, T'au Empire Markerlights can be put en masse in two separate units(Pathfinders and Drones) and can split fire off onto multiple targets to provide more coverage.
Try it sometime rather than complain about it being underpowered versus Orders. You might see how effective they are.
First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is really, really good.
It costs me 40 points to have a 50/50 shot of doubling the fire output of 1 squad. Compare 30 points for 2 guaranteed squads doubling their fire rate. In addition Orders happen in the shooting phase, not before the turn, so units can get into position to make the maximum use out of orders.
FRSRF is really good for Lasguns and their Hot-Shot equivalents. It does nothing for the rest of a squad. I actually just noticed that they removed Laspistols from it, so that's an even bigger drop since they refuse to let our fething Sergeants have fething Lasguns like any other fething army with ranged units can retain the same weapons as the rest of a squad.
Markerlights happen during the Shooting Phase, so if you chose not to get your units into position to take advantage of them--that's on you.
Add in that some of the bonuses that Orders grant(additional shots, for example) can be granted via some units like Fireblades with no requirement beyond "don't move" and affect multiple units rather than a single unit--it's still a garbage argument to try to pretend that Orders are the end all, be all of unit buffs in this game.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Not to mention FRFSRF has to be in 12" range to do so.
Yuup...
So you need to:
A) Have your unit within 6" of a model with Voice of Command(or 18" if the Voice of Command model is within 3" of a friendly unit with a Vox-Caster and the unit you're ordering has a Vox-Caster)
and
B) Have the unit within 12" of the enemy unit to get the most usage out of the Lasguns.
So you've just set up to match that, which for an Infantry Squad might be 6 models getting to double their output overall(Sergeants don't get Lasguns, Special Weapons Troopers aren't affected, and Heavy Weapons Teams essentially lose their Lasguns for a Heavy Weapon)...
And people wonder why Conscripts are the preferred choice for FRSRF?
FRSRF is really good for Lasguns and their Hot-Shot equivalents. It does nothing for the rest of a squad. I actually just noticed that they removed Laspistols from it, so that's an even bigger drop since they refuse to let our fething Sergeants have fething Lasguns like any other fething army with ranged units can retain the same weapons as the rest of a squad.
Markerlights happen during the Shooting Phase, so if you chose not to get your units into position to take advantage of them--that's on you.
Add in that some of the bonuses that Orders grant(additional shots, for example) can be granted via some units like Fireblades with no requirement beyond "don't move" and affect multiple units rather than a single unit--it's still a garbage argument to try to pretend that Orders are the end all, be all of unit buffs in this game.
The core difference between Markerlights and Orders is that...
Markerlights is Tau's primary, and arguably only advantage.
Imperial Guards also have... Psykers, Incredibly Low Costs, and Allies... and arguably Melee
Talamare wrote: Commissar
During morale, any number of times per unit, you may slain a model in a unit to reduce the morale test by d6
I like this. One of GW's buzzwords for 8ed is scalability; that's exactly what this would achieve. It would also mean that Ld debuff abilities would not be wasted against Guard with Commissars...
NenkotaMoon wrote: Definitely now that it doesn't double shots anymore, just goes Rapid Fire 2.
I think that you have misinterpreted the wording, the order essentially switches their lasguns to twin lasguns. So they double the amount of shots at a given range.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Says Rapid Fire 2, Rapid Fire is within half range, so 12"
It changes their weapon type from rapid fire 1 to rapid fire 2. The rapid fire weapon type fires X amount of shots at full range and 2X amount of shots at half range. So each guardsman or conscript with a lasgun fires 2 shots at 24'' and 4 shots at 12'' while under the effect of this order.
FRSRF is really good for Lasguns and their Hot-Shot equivalents. It does nothing for the rest of a squad. I actually just noticed that they removed Laspistols from it, so that's an even bigger drop since they refuse to let our fething Sergeants have fething Lasguns like any other fething army with ranged units can retain the same weapons as the rest of a squad.
Markerlights happen during the Shooting Phase, so if you chose not to get your units into position to take advantage of them--that's on you.
Add in that some of the bonuses that Orders grant(additional shots, for example) can be granted via some units like Fireblades with no requirement beyond "don't move" and affect multiple units rather than a single unit--it's still a garbage argument to try to pretend that Orders are the end all, be all of unit buffs in this game.
The core difference between Markerlights and Orders is that...
Markerlights is Tau's primary, and arguably only advantage.
Well, that and having an obscene number of units with "Fly" plus Drones that can take wounds for other units...
And Markerlights affecting an entire army if they choose to shoot at something that has been hit by Markerlights.
But yes, let's keep pretending that Markerlights are the Tau's primary and arguably only advantage.
Imperial Guards also have... Psykers, Incredibly Low Costs, and Allies... and arguably Melee
Guard don't have Psykers anymore actually.
Astra Telepathica has Psykers. They are their own faction now--which means if/when the Guard book drops, this potentially can have huge consequences for the army's benefits.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Says Rapid Fire 2, Rapid Fire is within half range, so 12"
It changes their weapon type from rapid fire 1 to rapid fire 2. The rapid fire weapon type fires X amount of shots at full range and 2X amount of shots at half range. So each guardsman or conscript with a lasgun fires 2 shots at 24'' and 4 shots at 12'' while under the effect of this order.
Damn, looks like Ill have to kill some Fat Guy that said I didn't. Thank you.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Says Rapid Fire 2, Rapid Fire is within half range, so 12"
It changes their weapon type from rapid fire 1 to rapid fire 2. The rapid fire weapon type fires X amount of shots at full range and 2X amount of shots at half range. So each guardsman or conscript with a lasgun fires 2 shots at 24'' and 4 shots at 12'' while under the effect of this order.
Damn, looks like Ill have to kill some Fat Guy that said I didn't. Thank you.
To be frank, I don't actually want them to change anything yet. Look at all info coming in about the new SM codex, and how much that will shake things up. That's going to happen 1-2 times a month for the next year or so. So while i think they are too powerful now, they may end up being balanced 3 months down the line particularly given the codices appear to be shifting the power level up a bit.
I'm honestly curious if some of the stronger armies were deliberately put there, as they may have to wait longer for a proper codex. Though the fact Tau aren't really on the horizon probably disproves that, it's an interesting thought.
FRSRF is really good for Lasguns and their Hot-Shot equivalents. It does nothing for the rest of a squad. I actually just noticed that they removed Laspistols from it, so that's an even bigger drop since they refuse to let our fething Sergeants have fething Lasguns like any other fething army with ranged units can retain the same weapons as the rest of a squad.
Markerlights happen during the Shooting Phase, so if you chose not to get your units into position to take advantage of them--that's on you. Add in that some of the bonuses that Orders grant(additional shots, for example) can be granted via some units like Fireblades with no requirement beyond "don't move" and affect multiple units rather than a single unit--it's still a garbage argument to try to pretend that Orders are the end all, be all of unit buffs in this game.
The core difference between Markerlights and Orders is that...
Markerlights is Tau's primary, and arguably only advantage.
Well, that and having an obscene number of units with "Fly" plus Drones that can take wounds for other units... And Markerlights affecting an entire army if they choose to shoot at something that has been hit by Markerlights[.
But yes, let's keep pretending that Markerlights are the Tau's primary and arguably only advantage.
No one is pretending. 1 - "Entire Army" still falls under the effect of Markerlights. So it's still a Markerlight Advantage 2 - It may allow the army to shoot at 1 enemy unit that has been lit up. 3 - It requires significantly more points to light up each enemy unit than it does to bring an IG Commander 4 - It requires several successful 50/50 rolls to light up for the best benefit. IG Commanders are guaranteed to buff a unit. 5 - You can build your army to maximize orders, you can't build your opponent's army to maximize your Lights (I'm saying opponent's doing MSU is a counter to Markerlights)
I think that covers most of the issues with Markerlights
Now, let's see Every army has bodyguards that can take wounds for other units.
Tau stuff has less wounds/toughness than other Army equivalents Broadside = Dreadnought = Wraithlord Except 2 of those are T7 with ~9 wounds... one of those is T5 with 6 wounds. Oh, and the Broadside costs like 50 more points than those 2.
Tau has similar amount of Fly to Eldar This is compensation for both armies have poor survivability stats, but Space Marine costs.
So yea, you can continue being but Orders are pretty fine. They are 1 of many MANY powerful advantages Imperial Guard have. They aren't meant to carry Imperial Guard by itself. Imperial Guard has a huge wealth of strong low cost options.
So yea, Markerlights have some advantageous quirks and advantages over Orders. That's by design.
Imperial Guards also have... Psykers, Incredibly Low Costs, and Allies... and arguably Melee
Guard don't have Psykers anymore actually.
Astra Telepathica has Psykers. They are their own faction now--which means if/when the Guard book drops, this potentially can have huge consequences for the army's benefits.
We will see how Chapter Tactics work with Detachments, but at any point you can choose not to have those benefits to bring Psykers from like 10 different 'Armies'. Guard Book won't change that. Tau book won't give Tau Psykers. (at least it's like 99% unlikely that they will)
GI_Redshirt wrote: You want them to be able to receive orders? Then they need to shoot up in price, being only a point or two less than a regular guardsman.
Why enter a discussion without first checking up on a few of the basics? Conscripts are already 1ppm less than guardsmen.
The argument that conscripts are newbies and therefore unable to be ordered is a pretty shakey one. Their inexperience is already reflected in their stat line. Any idiot can do what they're told.
I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?
Even the drafted guardsmen receive training. Whenever they travel through the warp, they are training that entire time which is months or even years. Planets have imperial guard tithes. That's just how they fill regiments. Some are volunteers, but regardless, they receive the full amount of training required to become a guardsman.
The conscripts are basically emergency draftees. They only have the most basic of training and then are rushed off to the front.
As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.
FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?
If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?
Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.
Colonel Cross wrote: Even the drafted guardsmen receive training. Whenever they travel through the warp, they are training that entire time which is months or even years. Planets have imperial guard tithes. That's just how they fill regiments. Some are volunteers, but regardless, they receive the full amount of training required to become a guardsman.
The conscripts are basically emergency draftees. They only have the most basic of training and then are rushed off to the front.
So basically the planetary defense forces and adhoc militias? Huh, alright.
Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.
Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....
All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...
usmcmidn wrote: Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.
Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....
All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...
.... I am blown away by the sheer lack of self awareness in this analogy. You are telling people to stop complaining because it bothers you ... then you say complaining reminds you of political correctness, which you think is bad and define as people demanding others not say things that hurt their feelings or offend them. Congratulations, that's hilariously hypocritical.
You should also realize that "political correctness" (also known as basic politeness for people who've undergone rudimentary socialization) is the only reason I'm even being even this nice about this?
Klowny wrote: As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.
FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?
If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?
Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.
Why are you worrying about something that you are incredibly unlikely to ever see on the table? Who wants to buy, build, and paint 150 models, let alone JUST conscripts in addition to everything else the guard players use? Next, sure, 50 conscripts are only 150 points. However, as you are describing your encounters with them, they require at least a platoon commander AND a commissar. Which adds another 51 points, minimum to this. And HOW are your warriors not chewing through conscripts? You hit and wound easier AND have an AP of 1, giving them saves of only a 6+. So tell me, how are these conscripts rolling you?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?
Most world have to draft their Guardsmen, yes, but they usually send the best and most veteran members of their PDF, who are then trained furthermore in warp transit. Some planets ship out regiments with combat experience, like the Cadian shock, or Krieg, who send their ''worthy'' regiments to fight agaisnt the rejects, and then ship them offworld.
Klowny wrote: As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.
FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?
If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?
Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.
Have you actually played against them? They only put out 4 shots when you're within 12" of them. And they do it at BS5+ with a S3 Ap0 weapon. The only thing they really offer is order efficiency. If it wasn't for that, they'd be worse point for point than normal guardsmen. Either you spread them out so that they can bubble wrap, or you concentrate them so they can shoot. You can't do both. Any high shot low str weapon is going to shred conscripts. The real threat is the heavy weapons behind them, and if they're bubble wrapping those they're not concentrated enough to shoot you.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?
Fluff varies. Plenty of fluff portrays all real IG as well trained veteran troops. They're the guys your planet sends to go fight, many of them are volunteers who join up for the grand adventure. Sure you're not likely ever coming "home," but instead you're likely to settle some world when you muster out. Not all the fluff portrays them as grim dark suicide waves. Regiments go from campaign to campaign, some get reinforcements, others just get combined.
When you consider that a hive world has billions of people on it, the few million they might muster at a guard founding could easily be handled by volunteers. There's going to be people who want out, even if its just to get steady meals and a place to sleep. When you throw in the religious fervor of fighting for your Emperor, there's plenty of fluff options to have serious detachments of IG out there. GW plays up the suicide wave grimdark stuff a lot more than they used to. I prefer the Caiphas Cain or Eisenhorn version of 40k, where sure everything is dark but there's still plenty of hope out there on an individual level.
In that line, conscripts represent more the PDF who are there to support the professional army. They're the guys who train and practice but haven't had a real fight in generations.
Klowny wrote: As necrons I find it really, really hard to deal with conscripts. Chaff screens shouldn't be good enough that they're a near auto take in any list.
FRFSRF is absolutely brutal. 150 points for 50 dudes with 4 shots each? That's a ridiculous amount of shots vs 240 points worth of warriors with 40 shots, 50 scripts wins literally every single time in a firefight. Even overwatch is brutal enough for my units to seriously consider not charging them. And then what, we charge, kill a couple, they execute another then fall back and shoot again because of an order at full strenght, then let me soak another round of overwatch?
If big squads of zerkers and a knight are having problems clearing 1 blob.... there's not much hope for other armies. Now imagine seeing 150 conscripts on the board, for 450 points. Literally cheaper than 40 warriors, more firepower, more durable, and able to shoot after falling back?
Take away their orders, or make them lose 4-6 to morale. As is there is very little counterplay to them.
Have you actually played against them? They only put out 4 shots when you're within 12" of them. And they do it at BS5+ with a S3 Ap0 weapon. The only thing they really offer is order efficiency. If it wasn't for that, they'd be worse point for point than normal guardsmen. Either you spread them out so that they can bubble wrap, or you concentrate them so they can shoot. You can't do both. Any high shot low str weapon is going to shred conscripts. The real threat is the heavy weapons behind them, and if they're bubble wrapping those they're not concentrated enough to shoot you.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
Huh, now that's an interesting idea. It also made me realize I don't really know what conscripts are supposed to represent, fluff wise. Aren't most guardsman conscripts or otherwise forcefully drawn in? From what I understand, volunteer guard armies aren't really a thing, most worlds have some version of the draft from the fluff I've read. Are they representing penal legions, or something similar?
Fluff varies. Plenty of fluff portrays all real IG as well trained veteran troops. They're the guys your planet sends to go fight, many of them are volunteers who join up for the grand adventure. Sure you're not likely ever coming "home," but instead you're likely to settle some world when you muster out. Not all the fluff portrays them as grim dark suicide waves. Regiments go from campaign to campaign, some get reinforcements, others just get combined.
When you consider that a hive world has billions of people on it, the few million they might muster at a guard founding could easily be handled by volunteers. There's going to be people who want out, even if its just to get steady meals and a place to sleep. When you throw in the religious fervor of fighting for your Emperor, there's plenty of fluff options to have serious detachments of IG out there. GW plays up the suicide wave grimdark stuff a lot more than they used to. I prefer the Caiphas Cain or Eisenhorn version of 40k, where sure everything is dark but there's still plenty of hope out there on an individual level.
In that line, conscripts represent more the PDF who are there to support the professional army. They're the guys who train and practice but haven't had a real fight in generations.
Yea they're my main opponent. I see 150 conscripts all the time, he brings that many because they are very strong. Especially since my vehicles can pop 2-3 of his a turn, so he focuses on his horde.
I've unloaded 40 warriors into 50 conscripts after GI and didn't come close to wiping the squad, and then them and the other 50 FRFSRF'd, and well..... bye bye warriors
People have been math-hammering out why conscripts are so good and wracking their brains trying to figure out how to tone them down but the reasons they're so good are not something you can roll back - the reason they're so good is that a.) templates were removed, instantly making horde units viable and change to failed morale checks which remove models instead of causing units to actually move back. Templates is easy - with templates these conscript blobs are gone because your flamer are hitting and removing way more models, as are all your blast weapons.
The morale thing is what has done it though. In a system where units actually move back and leave the table you can have the commissars do their thing and hold the unit on place, at the cost of battleshock taking its toll. Being immune to running away makes sense when units actually run away. You can modify the failed morale behaviour of a unit to instead stand it's ground and b struck by battleshock instead. This would mean conscripts that take a charge to the face by strong CC units would take extra wounds beyond what they already received, but would hold the unit in place another round. But GW changed morale behaviour to be straight up Battleshock, so they had no choice but to convert the commissars ability to hold a unit in place with their ability to stop them taking further casualties.
For solutions you're left with either targeting the thing that makes them strongest (orders), where you either have to remove them from the unit all-together or force leadership checks contrary to every other unit in the army. Or you make it easier to counter-play the linchpin in the unit - the commissar. Reasonable levels of sniper coverage can remove commissars easily but some armies don't have access to snipers. If every codex included reasonable sniper options then commissars become much more risky to play and conscripts can be swept aside.
Without the ability to fundamentally re-write the rules for a set that is only months old you have no option but to target the way either the unit/army in question plays or the way the problem can be countered by others. No tactic is innately OP, it's how many (or lack there-of) counters they have determine if they're OP or not.
I fail to see what orders actually DO to make conscripts too good. More Lasgun shots?
I always assumed that their durability was the issue, and the only thing that makes them too durable are commissars. Give them a rule that lets the commissar kill 1 conscript, but instead of having ALL the conscripts stay on the field just reduce the number by e.g. D6 or 2D6 or 10 or 5, whatever makes sense.
so if you kill 20 and your morale test is a 3, instead of removing 19 you'd remove 18-D6 or 18-2D6 or 18-10 or 18-5.
or go crazy and let the 18 guys roll a D6 each, on a 4+ they get to stay.
usmcmidn wrote: Let's stop complaining... this complaining is going a little to far. Fliers, conscripts, next Orks and Nids.
Leave them be, stop complaining and actually play with some tactics so you can take them out. I've played against fliers and conscripts and never thought they were omg auto win if you Field them... figure it out. It's a war game....
All this complaining reminds me of the political correct nonsense in the states, if it hurts my feelings and offends me you can't say or do it...
You should also realize that "political correctness" (also known as basic politeness for people who've undergone rudimentary socialization) is the only reason I'm even being even this nice about this?
So what you are saying if we weren't in a formal and civilized setting, you would not be nice and become violent? Thank you for proving my point.
Anyway, getting back on topic, we should wait until the codex and FAQ. I for one am going to play and enjoy myself no matter what. Losing is a part of the game. If a unit troubles me, I'll learn from mistakes. I think if we do continue down this road we will see other units being altered and this trend won't stop.
1) Conscripts become 4pts each (and possibly commanders or commissars could get a point increase too if deemed fair)
2) Conscripts can't take orders (or require a 4+ to pass orders or similar)
3) Commissars 'summary execution' rule doesn't work as well with conscripts (say it halves the number of casualties taken, or they lose D6 casualties instead of just the 1)
4) 1 Conscript squad can only be taken per two infantry squads in your army (or some similar army-structure approach to limiting them)
5) Conscript squad size lowered (say to 20 models or 30 models)
6) Lower their armour save to 6+
1) No. I think this will cause too many issues in terms of pushing up the price of other IG Infantry that isn't currently OP.
2) I'd be fine with Conscripts having a chance to fail orders.
3) No. This defeats the whole purpose of both conscripts and commissars. What's more, most of the proposed changes to commissars seem almost designed to screw over other IG infantry, whilst leaving Conscripts virtually unscathed.
4) I like this one.
5) No objections.
6) Mechanically, i'd be fine with this one. However, given that conscripts use the same models as IG infantry, it would be a bit odd for them to have different armour.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd say drop the Conscript/Guardsman distinction all together. Delete "Conscripts" as a separate unit entry, then let regular Guard squads go up to 20-30 models so there's still a point to Commissars.
GI_Redshirt wrote: You want them to be able to receive orders? Then they need to shoot up in price, being only a point or two less than a regular guardsman.
Why enter a discussion without first checking up on a few of the basics? Conscripts are already 1ppm less than guardsmen.
The argument that conscripts are newbies and therefore unable to be ordered is a pretty shakey one. Their inexperience is already reflected in their stat line. Any idiot can do what they're told.
Any idiot can do what they're told, but taking a few dozen labourers, clerks & students, giving them a month or two training, then telling them to organise into a firing line - when they're surrounded by purple trees with teeth, and are running away from a monster that dissolved five of their friends with its glowing vomit, and another one of their mates took an explosive headshot from an enforcer - is going to have a significant chance of a slapstick outcome.
At the very least a failure rate or a CP cost for Orders on this unit. FRFSRF on a ten man squad with options, that's 6/3 lasgun hits becoming 12/6. On a full Conscript squad, it's 33/16 hits becoming 67/33 hits. If you're taking a unit that can issue Orders, that's a hell of a return relative to the other rifle-bearing line squad.
several wrote:Wait for the Codex
Well no, if the get-you-by Indexes have a balance problem then it's important it gets widely discussed and alternatives considered before it gets written into a Codex.
<Forced Draft> Any time a Summary Execution is triggered on the conscipts by a commissar, roll a d6 and on 6+ the commissar is slain (mortal wounds?) by the conscripts, add +1 to the roll for every 10 (20%?) conscript casualties taken by the squad during the entire game.
Makes them less of an immovable blob that doesn't run even though they've taken grievous casualties, while not directly nerfing commissars ability to lead. Also makes it riskier to run a single commissar for two conscript squads as they have increased chance of being shot in the face.
OgreOnAStick wrote: <Forced Draft> Any time a Summary Execution is triggered on the conscipts by a commissar, roll a d6 and on 6+ the commissar is slain (mortal wounds?) by the conscripts, add +1 to the roll for every 10 (20%?) conscript casualties taken by the squad during the entire game.
Makes them less of an immovable blob that doesn't run even though they've taken grievous casualties, while not directly nerfing commissars ability to lead. Also makes it riskier to run a single commissar for two conscript squads as they have increased chance of being shot in the face.
Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
You know, if it were "Conscripts cannot use any other model's leadership in place of their own. In addition, each time the morale check would result in 10 or more casualties, the commissar takes a mortal wound for each 10 ignored (rounding down)". It's fluffy and if you think it ruins the synergy, that commissar would still be negating at minimum 30 casualties at 3 points a pop, more than earning his points back.
Stop trying to ruin the synergy with Commissars. The Conscript's durability isn't the problem.
This is the problem with having 50 threads on the same topic - what is proved, with math, in one thread, and that everyone in that thread agrees with, has to be gone over again and again and again in other threads.
Conscripts with Orders are far far too efficient. Conscripts without orders are not.
SilverAlien wrote: You know, if it were "Conscripts cannot use any other model's leadership in place of their own. In addition, each time the morale check would result in 10 or more casualties, the commissar takes a mortal wound for each 10 ignored (rounding down)". It's fluffy and if you think it ruins the synergy, that commissar would still be negating at minimum 30 casualties at 3 points a pop, more than earning his points back.
Why don't you just save some ink and remove the Conscript entry entirely?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Stop trying to ruin the synergy with Commissars. The Conscript's durability isn't the problem.
This is the problem with having 50 threads on the same topic - what is proved, with math, in one thread, and that everyone in that thread agrees with, has to be gone over again and again and again in other threads.
Conscripts with Orders are far far too efficient. Conscripts without orders are not.
It's slowly become several people beating a patient with a hammer when a scalpel would have been far more appropriate.
approach to fixing conscripts. Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws too.)
( ) You made commissars not worth taking for any other unit
( ) Reinstating rules from a dead edition for a single unit is bad game design
( ) No one will be able to find the guy or collect the money
( ) Commissars potentially killing more models if you fielded them compared to when you don't isn't reasonable
( ) It will stop conscripts for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
( ) Astra Militarium players will not put up with it
( ) Games Workshop will not put up with it
( ) The police will not put up with it
( ) Requires too much cooperation from tournament organizers
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Suggesting a unit with worse stats and no upgrade options be as/more expensive than a better unit with those options is silly
( ) Shifting points for force multipliers to 'correct' one unit requires anything that uses that multiplier to be rebalanced
( ) Weird exceptions to basic character rules is the whole reason the rules were rewritten to begin with
Specifically, your plan fails to account for
( ) Scaling to high numbers of points
( ) Scaling to low numbers of points
( ) Sniper rifles
( ) Flying assault units
( ) Asshats
( ) Turn one assaults
( ) Unpopularity of one-off rule exceptions
( ) Public reluctance to accept house rules
( ) Huge existing guardsman investment
( ) Likelyhood of unforseen rule imbalances
( ) Unwillingness of competitive players to play more casually
( ) Inadvertantly forcing the use of more conscripts
( ) Literally making conscripts unusuable
( ) Deep striking
( ) Psychic powers
( ) Other hoard armies
( ) Lack of or too much terrain
( ) Elite armies
( ) The Internet
( ) Games Workshop
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
( ) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever
been shown practical
( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
( ) Terrain should not make that possible
( ) We should be able to take units in our army's book without antagonism.
( ) Changing the rules to fit the meta is the opposite of how the meta should work
( ) Why should we have to trust you and your rules?
( ) Incompatiblity with existing rules
( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
( ) Killing them that way is not humane
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
( ) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
( ) This is a stupid idea, and I wonder if you've actually played this game.
( ) Nice try, jerk!
Sure, conscripts got tougher and there aren't any templates. But people seem to be looking past the fact that twin linked weapons now have double the shots. The TLAC has triple the number of shots.
Conscripts are fine. Their max shooting output averages less than 4 wounds against a Rhino.
Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.
And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.
Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.
And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.
That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.
Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.
Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.
And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.
That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.
Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.
Which is balanced, except for orders.
As I've said.
Like five times.
As a tactical marine *in cover*. If the space marine is in the open, the conscripts are more durable by a large margin. Which you've also been told. Multiple times.
Wow, why use a nerf bat when you can use a nerf thermonuclear detonation.
I think you are overstating the effect. Summary execution happens once per squad per round, so it is only a single roll of dice with a chance of the commisar dying. If the opponent has devoted so much firepower towards the conscripts to make the commisar bite it turn 1, they have already accomplished their job as a bullet sponge.
And yes, the commisar is the problem as he perfectly inoculates the conscripts against their weakness of garbage leadership.
That damage can be spread across multiple squads to cause the commissar multiple rolls - in fact, that's the stated point of the nerf.
Also, again, with the math that I've repeated myself about for five times now, a Commissar makes Conscripts damn near exactly as durable, point-for-point, as a tactical marine, while their shooting, point-for-point, is also comparable unless you include orders.
Which is balanced, except for orders.
As I've said.
Like five times.
As a tactical marine *in cover*. If the space marine is in the open, the conscripts are more durable by a large margin. Which you've also been told. Multiple times.
And which I've mentioned happens to line up nicely, since we're talking point for point, with the cost of, Krak grenades, Combat Squads, and pistols on the Space Marines which the Conscripts do not have to pay for.
Really people, can we please stop complaining about Conscripts? Oh wup-de-do, the Imperial Guard have one unit that is slightly more powerful than other equivalents, so what? Is it not about time that the Guard where capable of playing on a level field against our opponents?
For goodness sake, has everyone just forgotten about 6th and 7th editions? Or late 5th? Has everyone forgotten just how weak the Guard where all through those dark years?
Or just how powerful Marines, Eldar and Tau where?
Leave Conscript blobs be. They are good, yes, but they are nothing compared to what the Gladius, Cheesetide spam and Wraithbrigade/Scatbike where. yes, we finally have a good unit, LEAVE IT BE.
Those blobs represent years of collecting and hundreds of pounds spent, and quite frankly I do not believe that Conscripts are as bad as so many people make out. Moreover, I honestly feel that this is a reaction to the shock of Guard players finally having something that is competitive, mixed with a little butthurt from certain factions whom find that they cannot just roflstomp Guard armies with ease.
The fact that pretty much all of the nerfs proposed are drastic overkill even if you do concede that conscripts are a little OP does seem to indicate that most of the people suggesting them either don't know what balanced Conscripts would even look like, or don't desire balance so much as the ability to walk over them as if they weren't there.
master of ordinance wrote: Really people, can we please stop complaining about Conscripts? Oh wup-de-do, the Imperial Guard have one unit that is slightly more powerful than other equivalents, so what? Is it not about time that the Guard where capable of playing on a level field against our opponents?
For goodness sake, has everyone just forgotten about 6th and 7th editions? Or late 5th? Has everyone forgotten just how weak the Guard where all through those dark years?
Or just how powerful Marines, Eldar and Tau where?
Leave Conscript blobs be. They are good, yes, but they are nothing compared to what the Gladius, Cheesetide spam and Wraithbrigade/Scatbike where. yes, we finally have a good unit, LEAVE IT BE.
Those blobs represent years of collecting and hundreds of pounds spent, and quite frankly I do not believe that Conscripts are as bad as so many people make out. Moreover, I honestly feel that this is a reaction to the shock of Guard players finally having something that is competitive, mixed with a little butthurt from certain factions whom find that they cannot just roflstomp Guard armies with ease.
" is a reaction to the shock of Guard players finally having something that is competitive, mixed with a little butthurt from certain factions whom find that they cannot just roflstomp Guard armies with ease."
No, it's not. I know you can't do math. But the case against conscripts is based on math. IG wasn't as bad as you thought in 7th, and they are better than you think in 8th. I could NEVER roflstomp Guard with my list, so I'm not coming from the perspective you think I am.
I'd start with taking away their armor entirely and see how that plays.
" They are good, yes, but they are nothing compared to what the Gladius, Cheesetide spam and Wraithbrigade/Scatbike where"
It's the principle of it. And the ridiculous narrative. Conscripts are braver than space marines! Okay...
"Those blobs represent years of collecting and hundreds of pounds spent"
Don't care. GW toilet flushed my ENTIRE LIST for two editions. They made both CSM and vanilla marines better at deep striking jump units than the BA. Get over yourself. IG at least was a shooting list, even if they were ghetto Tau.
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ross-128 wrote: The fact that pretty much all of the nerfs proposed are drastic overkill even if you do concede that conscripts are a little OP does seem to indicate that most of the people suggesting them either don't know what balanced Conscripts would even look like, or don't desire balance so much as the ability to walk over them as if they weren't there.
Even with no armor, it still takes 112 BS 4 shots of str 4-5 or 90 shots of BS 4 Str 6+ to kill them. To kill 150 pts of stuff. Really? Cheap immunity to battleshock is HUGE. I have to bring special characters for that.
" is a reaction to the shock of Guard players finally having something that is competitive, mixed with a little butthurt from certain factions whom find that they cannot just roflstomp Guard armies with ease."
No, it's not. I know you can't do math. But the case against conscripts is based on math. IG wasn't as bad as you thought in 7th, and they are better than you think in 8th. I could NEVER roflstomp Guard with my list, so I'm not coming from the perspective you think I am.
In 7th Conscripts came with a 135 point tax and that was before you factored in the special characters needed to stop the entire unit running off the board as soon as anything looked at it too hard. And anything over 10 models would be footslogging and so die to enemy shooting before it did anything, which with BS2 Lasguns was not much anyway.
I'd start with taking away their armor entirely and see how that plays.
Okay. But whilst we are at it can we have -1 rend on all Lasguns? And an extra 6" of range? You know, so that they can still compete somewhat and have their historical (go back to 1st/2nd) range advantage over Bolters?
" They are good, yes, but they are nothing compared to what the Gladius, Cheesetide spam and Wraithbrigade/Scatbike where"
It's the principle of it. And the ridiculous narrative. Conscripts are braver than space marines! Okay...
What, the principle of the matter that a massed mob being forced forwards by something that terrifies them more than demons might be slightly more fanatical than a handful of elite super soldiers?
Or the principle that Conscripts, and indeed several Guard units, no longer break and run at the first sign of any action?
"Those blobs represent years of collecting and hundreds of pounds spent"
Don't care. GW toilet flushed my ENTIRE LIST for two editions. They made both CSM and vanilla marines better at deep striking jump units than the BA. Get over yourself. IG at least was a shooting list, even if they were ghetto Tau.
Boo-hoo For the past two editions every unit in the Guard codex barring five (of which two are questionable) was overpriced junk. "Leafblower" was thrown about by certain players as a justification for this, although said players seemed to forget that it took a minimal of 2000 points and the allying in of several Inquisition units to make the dreaded "Leafblower" list work. For that slight infringement in stepping on the toes of the glory boys we suffered the loss of everything, our Platoons became useless, our Artillery was reduced to overpriced junk bar one situational piece, our transport options became overpriced IFV or tin foil Tucker Truck, our tanks where violated with huge nerfs and our army shoehorned into a static role at a time when the game became all about mobility. We where an army that needed Baneblades on the field just to have a chance.
Whilst every other faction got shiny new toys we got nothing. Every other faction got formations that where quite frankly amazing (for the most part) and when ours finally rolled out they where initially taken as a sick joke as they where so weak.
Bloodangels? Yes, you suffered but do not make it out to seem that you where the ones hard off when compared to everyone else - or do we need to get the Sisters players in here?
Even with no armor, it still takes 112 BS 4 shots of str 4-5 or 90 shots of BS 4 Str 6+ to kill them. To kill 150 pts of stuff. Really? Cheap immunity to battleshock is HUGE. I have to bring special characters for that.
As someone in an actual military organization, getting people to follow orders when they don't want to be there is pretty difficult. With that in mind, I think Conscripts shouldn't be able to follow orders. They don't want to be there. They weren't trained. They were given a lasgun and told to shoot at the enemy.
If they are following orders, it is because there is fear of immediate consequences. I almost think that they should lose a Conscript every time they receive orders. The Commissar just blasts one to keep the others in line.
Haha that's the most absurd correlation ever. Pretty sure in the setting and in life or death combat, they'll follow orders to increase their chances of survival. We're not talking a national guard unit on a weekend training event. Lol
casvalremdeikun wrote: As someone in an actual military organization, getting people to follow orders when they don't want to be there is pretty difficult. With that in mind, I think Conscripts shouldn't be able to follow orders. They don't want to be there. They weren't trained. They were given a lasgun and told to shoot at the enemy.
If they are following orders, it is because there is fear of immediate consequences. I almost think that they should lose a Conscript every time they receive orders. The Commissar just blasts one to keep the others in line.
This is an elaborated way to say "the unit should not exists"
Which comes after the neutering of the veterans. I frankly find difficult to remain calm and rational reading this kind of threads and seeing them spammed the whole time.
"They weren't trained. They were given a lasgun and told to shoot at the enemy." 5+
casvalremdeikun wrote: As someone in an actual military organization, getting people to follow orders when they don't want to be there is pretty difficult. With that in mind, I think Conscripts shouldn't be able to follow orders. They don't want to be there. They weren't trained. They were given a lasgun and told to shoot at the enemy.
If they are following orders, it is because there is fear of immediate consequences. I almost think that they should lose a Conscript every time they receive orders. The Commissar just blasts one to keep the others in line.
I dont think current military(especially modern western military) experience holds much water when we're talking about conscripts that will be shot on the spot for their lack of discipline in the face of galactic alien threat. Fighting for an actual god emperor, at that.
I think their lack of discipline is already taken into account with their 5+ BS. The fact that they need a Comissar around to ensure they dont flee in droves amounts to the same.
"Okay. But whilst we are at it can we have -1 rend on all Lasguns? And an extra 6" of range? You know, so that they can still compete somewhat and have their historical (go back to 1st/2nd) range advantage over Bolters? "
No. Because they are still overpowered with no armor at all. Because 3 pts wound that never break are ridiculous.
" or do we need to get the Sisters players in here? "
Sisters were better off in 6/7th than BA. Don't even try.
New edition, same fallacious arguments. Conscripts are way too good for their price. Not sorta too good. WAY too good. Sorry if you can't accept this, but the math doesn't lie. The IG WERE a powerhouse in 5th with or without the leafblower, and they got hosed a LOT less than BA in 6/7th. You just couldn't stand there and kill everyone without moving, so it seemed like the IG apocalypse.
Unfair units are unfair, no matter which list they are in. And conscripts are unfair.
"A character! "
Not a 140 pt special character. Again, math. Get some.
"d but do not make it out to seem that you where the ones hard off when compared to everyone els"
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Well, I must admit, disagree though I did, I didn't think anyone was going to go so far as to force me to add "( ) Strawman" to the list of approaches on my standard form. Huh.
People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones. You can make dozens of arguments in this game based on math, yet it's pointless to do so. Make the arguments for actual experiences and act like an adult playing a table top strategy game lol. Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Colonel Cross wrote: People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones. You can make dozens of arguments in this game based on math, yet it's pointless to do so. Make the arguments for actual experiences and act like an adult playing a table top strategy game lol. Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
IG players can easily hide the commissars out of line of site.
Math dominates this game in terms of cost effectiveness analysis. Yes, some games can be outliers, but the math still dominates. Experiences are overrated because they are anecdotal.
What's the problem with conscripts? Just take more anti infantries. A lot of people complain about them because they don't want to change their lists. Luckily 8th edition has some list based on troops spam which was something I wanted since 5th edition.
AM was IMHO among the worst armies in 7th, now they appear to be the best one. But that's not because of conscripts, it's because they can spam a lot of discounted deep striking plasma guns.
Maybe BA suck in this edition like they did in 8th and they can't defeat AM in any possible way but there are 20+ other factions to consider, if I face AM with orks,SW or drukhari I will have different calculations since the units that I can field, and their weapons, are very different.
BA with 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and 1-2 stormravens should be able to deal with them without tailoring the AM list since those ones are basic options, am I wrong?
I've not played tons of games against the new AM since the edition is pretty new but 200 conscripts are not scary. Solid, but I can deal with them. Scions spam is the real nightmare.
Colonel Cross wrote: Haha that's the most absurd correlation ever. Pretty sure in the setting and in life or death combat, they'll follow orders to increase their chances of survival. We're not talking a national guard unit on a weekend training event. Lol
Removing orders from conscripts should be done with respect to game-balance not for fluff reasons.
Conscripts right now needs a nerf, but I dislike all the other balancing-options. Commisars or IG orders in general are not overpowered when applied to guard squads, and I don't like nerfing either mechanism in order to balance conscripts, and there really isn't a window for jacking up the price of conscripts or reducing their statline. Regards
casvalremdeikun wrote: As someone in an actual military organization, getting people to follow orders when they don't want to be there is pretty difficult. With that in mind, I think Conscripts shouldn't be able to follow orders. They don't want to be there. They weren't trained. They were given a lasgun and told to shoot at the enemy.
If they are following orders, it is because there is fear of immediate consequences. I almost think that they should lose a Conscript every time they receive orders. The Commissar just blasts one to keep the others in line.
I dont think current military(especially modern western military) experience holds much water when we're talking about conscripts that will be shot on the spot for their lack of discipline in the face of galactic alien threat. Fighting for an actual god emperor, at that.
I think their lack of discipline is already taken into account with their 5+ BS. The fact that they need a Comissar around to ensure they dont flee in droves amounts to the same.
We're not just talking about the willingness of the Conscripts to follow a barked order whilst in shock, we're also considering the capability of the traumatised horde to organise themselves to do so in a timely fashion (providing a characterful basis for a correction), and the game balance concern of them auto-passing an order with a far, far higher yield (16/32 extra hits, on average) when delivered to them than to better trained riflemen.
Blackie wrote: What's the problem with conscripts? Just take more anti infantries. A lot of people complain about them because they don't want to change their lists. Luckily 8th edition has some list based on troops spam which was something I wanted since 5th edition.
[...]
BA with 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and 1-2 stormravens should be able to deal with them without tailoring the AM list since those ones are basic options, am I wrong?
I've not played tons of games against the new AM since the edition is pretty new but 200 conscripts are not scary. Solid, but I can deal with them. Scions spam is the real nightmare.
3 twin AC razorbacks and 2 stormravens (922 pts) would on avg kill 42 conscripts per turn (roughly 150 pts including support), so you would still have to spend 5 turns to get through 200 of them if you tried. It's just not feasible to build half your list to kill one third of the opponents list over the course of a game.
200 conscripts are 600 points. Giving each a Commissar w/ bolt pistol & Chainsword and 2 CCs is 784 points. Plus, where did the idea come from that you had to kill ALL of them to get past them?
Somebody fielding 200 conscripts is ridiculous, though. I don't play tourneyments, but I don't doubt somebody pulls that. Not much you can do with the WAAC crowd in tourneys. One of the few things I liked about 7th was the platoon. Conscripts were an option in a platoon, but you had to take a platoon command squad and at least 2 squads to just be able to field one unit of them.
Blackie wrote: What's the problem with conscripts? Just take more anti infantries. A lot of people complain about them because they don't want to change their lists. Luckily 8th edition has some list based on troops spam which was something I wanted since 5th edition.
[...]
BA with 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and 1-2 stormravens should be able to deal with them without tailoring the AM list since those ones are basic options, am I wrong?
I've not played tons of games against the new AM since the edition is pretty new but 200 conscripts are not scary. Solid, but I can deal with them. Scions spam is the real nightmare.
3 twin AC razorbacks and 2 stormravens (922 pts) would on avg kill 42 conscripts per turn (roughly 150 pts including support), so you would still have to spend 5 turns to get through 200 of them if you tried. It's just not feasible to build half your list to kill one fourth of the opponents list over the course of a game.
You don't have to kill every single one of them to win a game. Just crippling one blob per turn is a big deal. I don't know about BA cause no one in may area played them since a while, and I only made a general suggestion not an effort to tailor the AM list. SM lists with 1-2 flyers and 3 razorbacks are quite common, and we're only talking about standard transports which you may want even if you don't face 200 conscripts.
As I said before those 200 guardsmen alone won't achieve anything. They can't really kill something valuable with their shooting, not to mention their melee stats. They only sit on objectives and screen some tanks, so you just have to kill the model you need to remove in a turn to score points or for the purpose of future points.
Blackie wrote: You don't have to kill every single one of them to win a game. Just crippling one blob per turn is a big deal. I don't know about BA cause no one in may area played them since a while, and I only made a general suggestion not an effort to tailor the AM list. SM lists with 1-2 flyers and 3 razorbacks are quite common, and we're only talking about standard transports which you may want even if you don't face 200 conscripts.
You don't have to kill every single one, no, but just 50 of them can still bubblewrap the whole backline. In general you might not even have to aim at them if your army is all long range anyway, the backline is generally softer and better at shooting. Still, they can definitely pose a threat with orders and they are incredibly good at blocking assault armies and holding ground, denying deep strike anti-tank units etc.
Blackie wrote: As I said before those 200 guardsmen alone won't achieve anything. They can't really kill something valuable with their shooting, not to mention their melee stats. They only sit on objectives and screen some tanks, so you just have to kill the model you need to remove in a turn to score points or for the purpose of future points.
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I agree that Schrödinger's Conscripts need to be toned down.
These almighty units that are capable of bubble-wrapping every unit in the IG army, being close enough to protect them from flying assault troops whilst simultaneously being far enough away to fend off all deep-strikers from every possible direction.
Even more incredibly, they are able to get every model into rapid-fire range of any enemy (regardless of distance), without sacrificing either of the above. Not only that, but they will always rapid-fire with a full unit, no matter how many casualties they appeared to suffer in prior turns.
What's more, they are apparently able to fluctuate in size, hopping from a mere 50 to 200+ and then back in an instant.
Finally, they can cause free support units to spontaneously appear whenever they're needed.
I only wish I could find their entry in my IG codex. I know it's supposed to be there, but every time I open my book to see, it ceases to exist.
vipoid wrote: These almighty units that are capable of bubble-wrapping every unit in the IG army, being close enough to protect them from flying assault troops whilst simultaneously being far enough away to fend off all deep-strikers from every possible direction.
You generally only need them to do one of the above against a given army, and even if they have to do two or three you can easily have enough to fulfill those roles. Have you ever seen 100 conscripts on a table?
vipoid wrote: Even more incredibly, they are able to get every model into rapid-fire range of any enemy (regardless of distance), without sacrificing either of the above. Not only that, but they will always rapid-fire with a full unit, no matter how many casualties they appeared to suffer in prior turns.
Who in this thread has even mentioned any need to get into rapid fire range?
vipoid wrote: What's more, they are apparently able to fluctuate in size, hopping from a mere 50 to 200+ and then back in an instant.
The 200+ is an example of how many you can take while 50 is what each unit contains, which means that doing the math on 50 at a time is more useful.
vipoid wrote: Finally, they can cause free support units to spontaneously appear whenever they're needed.
Who has said or implied that they are free?
vipoid wrote: I only wish I could find their entry in my IG codex. I know it's supposed to be there, but every time I open my book to see, it ceases to exist.
vipoid wrote: These almighty units that are capable of bubble-wrapping every unit in the IG army, being close enough to protect them from flying assault troops whilst simultaneously being far enough away to fend off all deep-strikers from every possible direction.
They only really need to be able to provide a line several inches deep in front of the Guard army to cut of any deep strike attack attempts against the meaty guard units.
Even more incredibly, they are able to get every model into rapid-fire range of any enemy (regardless of distance), without sacrificing either of the above. Not only that, but they will always rapid-fire with a full unit, no matter how many casualties they appeared to suffer in prior turns.
Could it be that perhaps different people in this thread have had different experiences with conscripts! :O It would be crazy to think one IG player used them for bubble wrap and another used them for Flashlight batteries.
What's more, they are apparently able to fluctuate in size, hopping from a mere 50 to 200+ and then back in an instant.
Oh my god! More differing experiences! It's almost as if each game of 40k is unique from every other due to different units, Generals, etc.
Finally, they can cause free support units to spontaneously appear whenever they're needed.
I wonder how an Imperial Guard player could fit support units into a 2000pt list when they've already used up a whole 150pts on Conscripts! It's just impossible!
I only wish I could find their entry in my IG codex. I know it's supposed to be there, but every time I open my book to see, it ceases to exist.
I can't find the Strawman entry in the Imperium 2 Index either. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Sigh. I see my post went over your head entirely.
But whatever, I look forward to more endless moving of goalposts.
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
What is shaky about running 200 or 50 conscripts? You can do either, in either case the conscripts are useful. I prefer to talk about 100 since that seems to be both cheap and able to do all of the above roles depending on matchup. But if someone suggests that killing 200 conscripts with X vehicles is easy, I have to base the math on 200 conscripts no?
Where is someone basing one argument on 50 total in an army and another argument on 200 total in an army?
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
His point when he said that 50 conscripts can still block the back line was that even after you kill 150 of them, using most of your army over most of the game, you still can't get to the juicy targets in the back line that are meanwhile happily ripping apart your army from behind their screen. It's not moving goalposts it's just an ongoing discussion.
What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
They are far too numerous and therefore hard to kill, despite both being more expensive and less durable than Brimstone Horrors.
I don't think anyone thinks that brimstone horrors are balanced either, but their statline is so ludicrous that I'm not particularly worried about their eventual nerf.
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
It isn't moving the Goalposts, some people have complaints about spamming 200 conscripts to cover the board with and some people have complaints about 50 man units being used as bubble wrap. Two different arguements and both with good points to make.
They are a very durable unit that is appropriately costed for their durability in editions that had blast templates, but are probably just a little too durable (with commissars preventing morale losses) in an edition without templates. More importantly, because they can be taken in units of 50 the effect of single-unit buffs like orders and searchlights are disproportionately effective for them, giving them extremely efficient offensive power as well. Being very efficient at offense and extremely efficient at defense makes them arguably the best per-point unit in the game. By a lot.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
I agree, taking 200 conscripts if your gunline is going to be tanks is not a good idea at 1500 points. For an army like that it would probably be better to bring a bunch of astra telepathica psykers instead.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
Chaos has no snipers, and deepstrike won't allow you to kill a commissar surrounded by conscripts.
sossen wrote:They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
The cost of the support is already included in the 180-200 pts. If you want to get support for the razorbacks you will have to include the cost in the comparison. And while it is possible to use as a transport, a razorback needs to be immobile to get those numbers. You can cut their numbers by 1/4 if they want to move, unlike the conscripts. The razorback is completely useless in melee and typically gets locked in an endless cycle of falling back, the conscripts can fall back and shoot at essentially full capacity. The razorbacks are hardly "significantly tougher" either, they can be wiped with much higher efficiency than any answer to conscripts will have. So razorbacks are bought to act as gun platforms in every matchup while the conscripts can fulfill a multitude of roles and are at their worst when you only want to use them as firepower, as I explained in the post that you quoted. And yet 50 conscripts are equal to two razorbacks when it comes to killing GEQ.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
master of ordinance wrote: Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Can you explain how this is supposed to work? How are they going to get to the commissar before the conscripts are dead?
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
Of note, armies like orks lack very few good ranged anti-tank options, and so rely on CC to do that work. What they do have will be the first target for all your tank based shooting, and then they will still need to chew through the conscript wall to get to your tanks. This assumes that those units can even draw LOS to your tanks during the game to begin with.
One large issue with conscripts is their durability as a screen + the fall back rules + orders + IG having copious access to shooting that does not need LOS.
If CC armies could hit conscripts and get locked in there would be no issue
If cc armies could hit conscripts and those conscripts could do nothing but fall back, there might be an issue, but at least it would be a little less shooting
If conscripts took morale losses more than 1 per turn, there would be less issue, because at least then assaulting units could reliably cripple the conscripts before dying.
IF IG units needed LOS to shoot things, at least then other armies ranged options could be used to counter the IG ranged options.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
Of note, armies like orks lack very few good ranged anti-tank options, and so rely on CC to do that work. What they do have will be the first target for all your tank based shooting, and then they will still need to chew through the conscript wall to get to your tanks. This assumes that those units can even draw LOS to your tanks during the game to begin with.
One large issue with conscripts is their durability as a screen + the fall back rules + orders + IG having copious access to shooting that does not need LOS.
If CC armies could hit conscripts and get locked in there would be no issue
If cc armies could hit conscripts and those conscripts could do nothing but fall back, there might be an issue, but at least it would be a little less shooting
If conscripts took morale losses more than 1 per turn, there would be less issue, because at least then assaulting units could reliably cripple the conscripts before dying.
IF IG units needed LOS to shoot things, at least then other armies ranged options could be used to counter the IG ranged options.
Weakness to heavy tanks is engineered into the Orks, just like weakness to hordes is engineered into GK and Deathwatch.
I've mentioned it before, but I think the engineered weakness of Guard is intended to be higher-quality shooting (e.g. Tau), but right now, quantity is trumping quality because of how character buffs work (why use small amounts of high-quality shooting buffed to be slightly better when you can just use a TON of gakky shooting and buff it up to be as good as the high-quality shooting with one character!)
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
The only snipers we have are Marauders that are less than effecient at taking out characters (as they should be) and deep strike attack against commissars has the same problem that deep strike against tanks has: there are 50 bloody conscripts in the way! (In order to deal with the conscripts, first you must kill the Comissar. In order to kill the Comissar you must first destroy the bubble wrap. And what is the bubble wrap? The conscripts.)
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
I do take Havocs with Lascannons, I also take Tank popping Terminators and a Knight fitted out for anti-tank (but mostely to draw fire). The problem is, I can drop a tank per turn (two if I'm very lucky) but the Guard players I play against take more like 6 tanks, a couple of Vendettas and deep striking plasma + melta along with the 50 man conscript screaning. I don't have enough firepower to take out enough of his tanks so that when I finally make it onto the other side of the conscript line I don't immediately get hammered. If I do change up my list and take more ranged anti-tank stuff then it ceases to be a cc army.
I know that there are many chaos lists to counter this stuff but none of them are cc orientated and i don't want another edition where cc becomes the deformed sibling to the far superior shooting army again.
"Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating"
You're making stuff up. I merely stated that the IG had efficient units in addition to the conscripts. Which is absolutely true. I think that marines have one unit to match that was nerfed FOR A GOOD REASON. No one wants to play against 5 stormravens.
IG players are truly the new Tau players.
7th ed Tau: "It's fine that it takes 40 lascannons to kill a Riptide!. We NEED that. If we didn't we might actually lose a game to IG or BA!"
8th ed IG: "Conscripts for 3 pts are FINE! We NEED that, or we might actually have to move and not be able to win every game by tabling the opponent!"
MoO is notoriously terrible at running his own list in 6th/7th, even as far as denying the efficacy of divination for IG in those editions. Now, he's put on the 7th ed Tau cloak. "Nothing to see here, everything is working as intended; move along". Seriously? Enjoy your autowin button, bro. I didn't think I could lose any more respect for you, but there it is.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
The only snipers we have are Marauders that are less than effecient at taking out characters (as they should be) and deep strike attack against commissars has the same problem that deep strike against tanks has: there are 50 bloody conscripts in the way! (In order to deal with the conscripts, first you must kill the Comissar. In order to kill the Comissar you must first destroy the bubble wrap. And what is the bubble wrap? The conscripts.)
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
I do take Havocs with Lascannons, I also take Tank popping Terminators and a Knight fitted out for anti-tank (but mostely to draw fire). The problem is, I can drop a tank per turn (two if I'm very lucky) but the Guard players I play against take more like 6 tanks, a couple of Vendettas and deep striking plasma + melta along with the 50 man conscript screaning. I don't have enough firepower to take out enough of his tanks so that when I finally make it onto the other side of the conscript line I don't immediately get hammered. If I do change up my list and take more ranged anti-tank stuff then it ceases to be a cc army.
I know that there are many chaos lists to counter this stuff but none of them are cc orientated and i don't want another edition where cc becomes the deformed sibling to the far superior shooting army again.
A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.
Why are you dedicating shooting power to wiping out a screen that you can just shoot over?
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
I think the main problem comes from the fact that they are so easily spammable, so putting some force org restrictions such as "only 1/2 units per detachment" or "for every unit of conscripts in an army, you must also take 3 infantry squads and 1 veteran squad". These ideas would other restrict the number you saw on a table, or impose a tax for taking them. This could also be used for other things like brimstone horrors (not familiar with daemon codex so won't make any silly suggestions)
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.
You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
And who's arse did you pull that fact out of?
10 man Zerker unit
6 PF attacks -->3 dead
36 CA attacks -->17 dead
20 CS attacks --> 6 dead
So just over half the unit is dead on the charge.
Luckily I take 20 Zerkers because otherwise it wouldn't be much of a Zerker Horde and I usually whipe out the unit. Good right? However, you are now sat at the end of turn 2 or the start of turn 3 with all of your squishy cc units out in the open (after getting out of the Rhinos which are the only thing that prevented the units from being whiped turn 1) and combinations of Punishers, Heavy Bolters and Flamers will now whipe out close to 500pts of your army army after they killed a 150pt line of bubble wrap.
If a 10 man unit could whipe them out in a turn I definitely wouldn't be complaining.
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.
You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
And who's arse did you pull that fact out of?
10 man Zerker unit
6 PF attacks -->3 dead
36 CA attacks -->17 dead
20 CS attacks --> 6 dead
So just over half the unit is dead on the charge.
Luckily I take 20 Zerkers because otherwise it wouldn't be much of a Zerker Horde and I usually whipe out the unit. Good right? However, you are now sat at the end of turn 2 or the start of turn 3 with all of your squishy cc units out in the open (after getting out of the Rhinos which are the only thing that prevented the units from being whiped turn 1) and combinations of Punishers, Heavy Bolters and Flamers will now whipe out close to 500pts of your army army after they killed a 150pt line of bubble wrap.
If a 10 man unit could whipe them out in a turn I definitely wouldn't be complaining.
So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?
It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.
You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
Why not? Can the melee army not maneuver?
People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.
Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?
Unit1126PLL wrote: So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?
It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.
Sorry, but that was such a dense answer to my post. I literally said I wouldn't mind the trade off of 10 Zerkers for 50 conscripts (even though that is 200+pts for 150pts) because I know cc armies have to make sacrifices to make it to a gunline.
What I'm complaining about is that Guard have a counterplay to cc armies that let them shut down any attempt to even touch their gunline and mean they don't have to move or really use any skill.
(I've played against Guard armies in 8th that didn't have conscript screaning and they were for more fun engaging games as my opponant split his forces and repositioned as I crashed into his gunline. He would try things like splitting my forces, stranding my characters and purposely ramming my forces to prevent my cc units from advancing any further. Those were much closer and much more fun games to play.)
People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.
Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?
Deathy is saying that they literally can't manouver round it because 16 conscripts spaced out is more than enough to screan cc armies from getting around them, so it will take another turn of combat (with less models now that they've weathered a round of shooting, that 10 man Zerker unit becomes more like a 3 man unit) to get past the conscripts to the gunline.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.
As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?
It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.
Sorry, but that was such a dense answer to my post. I literally said I wouldn't mind the trade off of 10 Zerkers for 50 conscripts (even though that is 200+pts for 150pts) because I know cc armies have to make sacrifices to make it to a gunline.
What I'm complaining about is that Guard have a counterplay to cc armies that let them shut down any attempt to even touch their gunline and mean they don't have to move or really use any skill.
(I've played against Guard armies in 8th that didn't have conscript screaning and they were for more fun engaging games as my opponant split his forces and repositioned as I crashed into his gunline. He would try things like splitting my forces, stranding my characters and purposely ramming my forces to prevent my cc units from advancing any further. Those were much closer and much more fun games to play.)
People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.
Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?
Deathy is saying that they literally can't manouver round it because 16 conscripts spaced out is more than enough to screan cc armies from getting around them, so it will take another turn of combat (with less models now that they've weathered a round of shooting, that 10 man Zerker unit becomes more like a 3 man unit) to get past the conscripts to the gunline.
Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.
16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.
Martel732 wrote: You're making stuff up. I merely stated that the IG had efficient units in addition to the conscripts. Which is absolutely true. I think that marines have one unit to match that was nerfed FOR A GOOD REASON. No one wants to play against 5 stormravens.
Well yes, we have.... What do we have now? In all honestly we have Infantry units which are okay and Storm Troopers. And Tauroxes recieved even more buffs (because noone ever wants to use them) And HWT. And a few other bits. In all honestly the codex has been turned on its head.
IG players are truly the new Tau players.
What, when did we gain godlike manoeuvrability and masses of long ranged firepower that could be buffed army wide? Please do tell me Martel, I really want to use these units!
7th ed Tau: "It's fine that it takes 40 lascannons to kill a Riptide!. We NEED that. If we didn't we might actually lose a game to IG or BA!"
Plus markerlights, stormsurges, battlesuits, stealth cadre formations..... The list goes on.
8th ed IG: "Conscripts for 3 pts are FINE! We NEED that, or we might actually have to move and not be able to win every game by tabling the opponent!"
Well, how are conscripts tabling people? They have an average range, average T, low armour save, low accuracy, are slow and forced to footslog, cannot be transported, etc. If they are giving you that much trouble then try shooting them from beyond their range. Or just ignoring them and going for the objectives. Or locking them in CC and chasing them up to distract them whilst you go for the objectives. Or you know, just thinking instead of crying "waaa OP". But it is okay Martel. After all, Leman Russ where overpowered in 7th right?
MoO is notoriously terrible at running his own list in 6th/7th, even as far as denying the efficacy of divination for IG in those editions.
Wait, was that the "bring 50 man blobs with a priest, commissar, psyker and five Las/autocannon teams and five plasmaguns" list? The one which relied on your overpriced psyker getting both Invisibility and that reroll failed to hits spell to function? the one with the big congaline to the heavy weapons so they could shoot? Yes, that one which typically lost two plasmaguns on its first volley, and one every subsequent shooting phase? Yes, that one which cost more than a Baneblade, had to footslog and required such luck with the dice that it led to you being laughed out of the threads several times, with far more experienced guard players such as myself including those whom had tried it and said it did not work? That one Martel? Because it was a terrible idea back then and it still is.
Now, he's put on the 7th ed Tau cloak. "Nothing to see here, everything is working as intended; move along".
Well I will be fair, there is something to see. Salty butthurt SM Eldar and Tau players crying as their Sue grade special snowflake armies suddenly find themselves no longer able to march over Guard armies in a couple of turns. said players suffering horrific mental trauma as they suddenly have to think instead of pressing their "Iwin" button and struggling to cope with the concept of "tactics".
Seriously?
Looks like it
Enjoy your autowin button, bro.
Thanks, but I dont run Conscripts. They never fit the theme of my army and to be honest I have neither the time nor the patience to paint that many models for the sake of a dull tactic that will invariably be rendered obsolete once players stop crying and start thinking.
I didn't think I could lose any more respect for you, but there it is.
Thanks, I do my best In all seriousness martel, I do not really care. You frequently butt into Guard threads with this idea that we are somehow overpowered, etc. I do not know what your local meta is like but from what you have been saying over the past few years I can gather that you are either slightly behind on it, or that the Guard players in your area enjoy fudging things a little bit. I mean no offence in this, we all have those dodgy players and as a Guard player myself it was sometimes hard to avoid the temptation to sneak an extra unit or "forget" or "remember" something during those dark years, and I am pretty sure that there are those that where not as strong willed as myself. Try looking at your army and how it plays and then looking at the opposition. Remember that for the Conscripts to work they all have to be within 12" of their target, and to get there either you have to go to them or they have to come to you. Weaken them before they get there and remember that they are slow. Weaken them and then, when you are ready, go for the throat and charge. Bring snipers or barrages to deal with commissars. Use flamers and anti infantry weapons instead of anti MEQ weapons. Just please stop complaining about Guard armies though. you have been going on about us for years and I am honestly fed up with it.
It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.
Then bring a few blobs of marines with some anti-infantry support.
sossen wrote:
The cost of the support is already included in the 180-200 pts. If you want to get support for the razorbacks you will have to include the cost in the comparison. And while it is possible to use as a transport, a razorback needs to be immobile to get those numbers. You can cut their numbers by 1/4 if they want to move, unlike the conscripts. The razorback is completely useless in melee and typically gets locked in an endless cycle of falling back, the conscripts can fall back and shoot at essentially full capacity. The razorbacks are hardly "significantly tougher" either, they can be wiped with much higher efficiency than any answer to conscripts will have. So razorbacks are bought to act as gun platforms in every matchup while the conscripts can fulfill a multitude of roles and are at their worst when you only want to use them as firepower, as I explained in the post that you quoted. And yet 50 conscripts are equal to two razorbacks when it comes to killing GEQ
So, in other words a 200 point selection consisting of a bunch of bods with support is slightly less efficient than 200 points of transport at killing things? I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts, faster AND can transport units AND is better against heavier targets is still slightly better at killing things than the conscripts at the slight cost of not being as capable in close combat. And if it does end up in close combat then you can just deploy the troops from within. Hell, the only thing that they have any real weakness too are the dedicated anti-heavy weapons which are so popular these days (and ironically the things that make blobs like Conscripts so good).
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead. Also, you are looking at kill-per-points. Stop it.
Can you explain how this is supposed to work? How are they going to get to the commissar before the conscripts are dead?
Yes. You either: A) Use a sniper weapon B) catch the command unit giving the orders or the commissar out in the open or C) use barrage weapons which (based off my understanding) do no have to shoot the closest unit when they fire
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.
As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.
Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.
It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.
Martel732 wrote: Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.
Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.
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Martel732 wrote: Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.
Like Riptide and WK of last edition, they are too cheap and allow too much other stuff in the list.
The issue with making them more expensive is they're not the same as guardsmen PPM, so the guardsmen have to go up, then the veterans have to go up, and the heavy weapons teams, and the scions, and the special weapons teams, and the command squads...
Deathypoo wrote: No, nobody without flying/hover/equivelent can maneuver around a 3' wall in a reasonable amount of time.
They can punch right through it though. That's 2" between conscripts. That means even a 40mm base can charge right through this 'screen' as if it wasn't there.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.
As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.
Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.
It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.
You really cannot consolidate through a screen, and now I think of it I think bezerkers comes on 32 mm bases making screening against them easier than against boyz or gaunts. Regards
Martel732 wrote: Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.
Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.
Like Riptide and WK of last edition, they are too cheap and allow too much other stuff in the list.
The issue with making them more expensive is they're not the same as guardsmen PPM, so the guardsmen have to go up, then the veterans have to go up, and the heavy weapons teams, and the scions, and the special weapons teams, and the command squads...
"
You need a lot more than one charge to do anything in 8th ed. Being in the face of guard is right where they want you. BA (and marines) can't shoot well enough and assault well enough simultaneously to compete with the wounds IG puts in the table.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.
As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.
Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.
It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.
You really cannot consolidate through a screen, and now I think of it I think bezerkers comes on 32 mm bases making screening against them easier than against boyz or gaunts. Regards
You can depending on how the opponent removes casualties. If the conscripts are now further away than the tank, you can pile in and consolidate and move 6" closer to the tank. If the conscripts were removed from around the unit originally in combat with them, then they can consolidate towards the nearest tank.
It's not like you're removing 2 or 3 conscripts at a time. you're removing like 10. Those casualties come from somewhere, and as soon as 1 tank is closer to one bad-guy model, that model can consolidate closer to the tank. We're talking about turn 2 here, so either the conscripts are going to be concentrated enough to go around, or spread out enough that removing 3 or 4 has the potential to release a unit from combat with them that can move on later in the fight phase.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.
16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.
I won some of them yes, I also drew and lost some. In all of those games though the winner only won by 1 or 2 points. My opponants were almost always dealing damage to me and they certainly seemed to be having fun whenever they downed my Knight or killed off a final Zerker in overwatch or if I did manage to kill a tank and it blew up in my face.
As for the 16 conscripts, there is spacing enough there for Zerkers to get through but the original 10 man Zerker unit is probably dead from being sat in the open for a turn and there's about a 50:50 chance that the other Zerker unit has had their Rhino popped and a few of them killed. Then how many do you think will survive overwatch vs the conscripts and tanks? The only reason Zerkers can reliably survive overwatch vs shooty armies is by sending the Rhinos in first. I know this sounds like whining but fighting conscript screened armies with a cc army is futile. Please Unit, you take a Khorne army versus a competitive Imperial Guard army with a 50 man conscript screen and tell me how easy it is to get past the conscripts.
Deathypoo wrote: No, nobody without flying/hover/equivelent can maneuver around a 3' wall in a reasonable amount of time.
If you stretch the screen to the limits of unit coherency, then assault units can just declare a charge against the screening unit, and then charge right through the screen. What is more, you only need to place a single charging model in CC with the screening unit, the remainder can charge the at the tanks behind the screen, if such a charge was declared, or they can just move close to the tanks (1.1 inch or so), and then pile into the tanks. If you do the latter, then you cannot hit them in the fight phase, but they will still be engaged in CC and they don't get to fire overwatch. What is more, if the defender was dumb enough to place his tanks back against the table edge or impassable terrain, then he cannot even fall back. At this point the assaulting player should perform a little dance routine, just to lighten the tension of the game.
The "melee" versus "ranged" meta game exists in so many table top /video games/ RPG systems.
1. Melee needs a credible way to get close and engage ranged
2. Ranged needs a credible way to avoid melee and remain at distance
If those two things aren't balanced, you have a totally one sided game, which isn't good.
Right now, melee does not have a credible way to get close and engage Imperial Guard in a meaningful way.
I'm going to suggest that if you play guard, and you are at all struggling, consider:
1. Conscripts are cheap. Yes, you will need to own a lot of them, but 150 conscripts is more than enough, for 450 points, to negate every single assault army without difficulty. They have no counter play to this wall.
2. Manticores, Wyverns are cheap. Bring them. You don't need to worry about moving your gunline, because it will be shielded by the conscripts, and these incredibly strong tanks force the opponent to bring the fight to you. At 2000 points you can bring enough of these to realistically table anyone, other than Guard, in 5 turns.
3. You have other cheap, undercosted options to add in, depending on what your local meta involves. Additionally, you have very cheap 8 toughness tanks that can deal wicked damage.
4. Any balanced list should have some reserves, you can do this with very cheap plasma, cheaper than anyone else, and it will cut through equally costed units like a hot knife through butter. Scions are you friend.
Congratulations, you just won basically all of your games.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.
16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.
I won some of them yes, I also drew and lost some. In all of those games though the winner only won by 1 or 2 points. My opponants were almost always dealing damage to me and they certainly seemed to be having fun whenever they downed my Knight or killed off a final Zerker in overwatch or if I did manage to kill a tank and it blew up in my face.
As for the 16 conscripts, there is spacing enough there for Zerkers to get through but the original 10 man Zerker unit is probably dead from being sat in the open for a turn and there's about a 50:50 chance that the other Zerker unit has had their Rhino popped and a few of them killed. Then how many do you think will survive overwatch vs the conscripts and tanks? The only reason Zerkers can reliably survive overwatch vs shooty armies is by sending the Rhinos in first. I know this sounds like whining but fighting conscript screened armies with a cc army is futile. Please Unit, you take a Khorne army versus a competitive Imperial Guard army with a 50 man conscript screen and tell me how easy it is to get past the conscripts.
Have you tried taking some raptors? I know that stormboyz can help boyblobs both as a mobile screen against other CC armies, but also as a way to bypass infantry screens. Allthough I agree that conscripts can be frustrating. Regards
Martel732 wrote: Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.
Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.
And they charge... what? The conscripts? Oh whup tee doo, my Terminators/Raptors are now in combat with the conscripts. The Guard player will play it smart and hold the deep striking units in cc whilst obliterating the rest of the cc army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote: Have you tried taking some raptors? I know that stormboyz can help boyblobs both as a mobile screen against other CC armies, but also as a way to bypass infantry screens. Allthough I agree that conscripts can be frustrating. Regards
The problem there is that you have: turn 1 they come down and likely get killed to a man and do no damage because their weapons aren't in rapid fire/melta range, turn 2 (if some are still alive) they'll jump over the conscripts, do a pitiful amount of damage, hold one thing up in cc and die to a Comissars bolt pistol. Raptors are great if they can get in range but conscript screens deny them the range they need.
Marmatag wrote: 3. You have other cheap, undercosted options to add in, depending on what your local meta involves. Additionally, you have very cheap 8 toughness tanks that can deal wicked damage.
The taurox prime deserves mention, given it is actually better than the ever popular razorback as far as firepower for cost goes while still being remarkably durable. The only thing they can't do si taking down T:8 models. Otherwise, they have some solid options.
master of ordinance wrote: I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts [...]
It is not tougher - because it is a viable target for lascannons and the like you can kill razorbacks efficiently with the appropriate weapons. Multi-wound tanks are not as tough as they look because of the discount on multi-damage weapons. Plasma scion command squads can make their points back in one turn by firing at twin AC razorbacks. Conscripts on the other hand have no efficient counters.
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.
By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.
master of ordinance wrote: I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts [...]
It is not tougher - because it is a viable target for lascannons and the like you can kill razorbacks efficiently with the appropriate weapons. Multi-wound tanks are not as tough as they look because of the discount on multi-damage weapons. Plasma scion command squads can make their points back in one turn by firing at twin AC razorbacks. Conscripts on the other hand have no efficient counters.
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.
By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.
He doesn't know, because he probably still doesn't understand how the game works. Just like in 7th.
Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.
Lascannon HWS are in an awkward spot when you want to talk about "point efficiency". See, a rule of thumb for most guard players is "never put lascannons in a HWS". Why? Because now you've got three 24 point models with just 2 T3/5+ wounds, no padding, and no character protection from shooting. Can you say "autocannon bait"?
They could theoretically make for a good first-turn alpha strike I suppose, if Guard ever got first turn.
Realistically speaking, the cheapest thing those lascannons will ever be mounted on is a Sentinel for a total of 55 points. You need a minimum of two to kill the Rhino, so that's 110 points to kill a 70 point Rhino. If they both hit with their BS4+. And if they both roll well on their damage.
A Vendetta would technically be more efficient than sentinels overall, as it technically has an effective cost of 38.3 points per lascannon fielded. But it achieves this by boating, you can't take fractions of a Vendetta so you're looking at 230 points to kill the 70 point Rhino. Though as long as the Vendetta hovers (to avoid getting bumped down to 5+) that Rhino probably is very dead.
So yeah, even against lascannons, Rhinos are actually pretty good wound sponges.
Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.
It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.
"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."
Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.
I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.
Like most problems in this game, it has more than one facet. It's not JUST conscripts, it's conscripts PLUS other efficient units. WKs w/o scatterbikes and warp spiders would not have been the WKs we knew and hated. Conscripts are A problem. I think another problem is that T3 and 5+ armor got a LOT better and the IG doesn't pay for it.
Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.
It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.
"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."
Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.
I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.
I enjoy discussing things with you. I also appreciate your candor even if we disagree. My generalization was not fair and doesn't apply to everyone, especially you.
Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.
It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.
"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."
Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.
I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.
Yeah, I don't see you posting MoO-style posts NOR exalting them.
It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
I'd say they're fairly same-ish in their ability to absorb shooting. Not identical, Rhinos have a smaller board footprint so they can't cover the whole board as easily. They also block LoS to things behind them, which can both be good (protects that thing from enemy shooting) and bad (it blocks LoS going the other way too) depending on the situation. Anti-tank weapons are also generally at a premium though, and there's usually much more valuable things on the board that they'd rather be shooting.
Rhinos are also naturally immune to morale, by virtue of being single-model units, and they can actually recover wounds if you take more than one turn to kill them (1/6 chance of 1 wound isn't much, but it's more than Conscripts can do).
They don't have as much firepower unless you pay to upgrade them to Razorbacks, and even then they're hard to compare because Razorbacks are mostly anti-tank and Conscripts are anti-infantry.
But in terms of wound sponging, they're pretty comparable.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
Im a pretty new player, but I can think straight away of a 170 point unit that can pop a rhino in one turn. Salamander (for the rerolls) Devastators have a decent chance of killing it in one round of shooting. Add in split fire from pretty much anything else to finish it off if the lascannon damage rolls are bad. I'm confident there are lots of similar things in other armys, since anti tank firepower is pretty easy to come by. Anti infantry on the other hand, nowhere near as effective for the points. That's kinda the problem. So we could rewrite the rules and add in extra hits for old blast weapons, buff every army in the game, or we could just nerf the handful on units that aren't costed appropriately...
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
And Grey Knights are notoriously bad at dealing with hordes, so that's closer to complaining that you need to use way too many heavy bolters to kill a Rhino. Well yeah, because heavy bolters are terrible at killing vehicles.
Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Technically the ideal thing would probably be pathfinders with pulse rifles, unfortunately they can't do that. (on that note, does anyone know why Pathfinders are 5 points but Fire Warriors are 8? 3 points is quite a steep premium to go from 5+ to 4+ armor)
And Tau are considered underpowered right now.
Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
Why do Tau shoot things off the table so much more efficiently than GK? Because Tau is a shooting army, GK is an awkward blend of shooting, assaulting, and psykers. IG and Tau are basically the only two pure (or nearly pure) shooting armies in the game. Anyone else is going to have to throw some assaulting into the mix, because they can't just expect to stand back and shoot those two armies off the table.
That assaulting is nothing to sneeze at either, for armies that are good at it a charge after shooting can get them 1.5x or 2x as much damage done in that turn (partially because a lot of them have equal BS and WS, and as many attacks as they have shots, so it's basically a second shooting phase for them). That's as good as using FRFSRF, albeit much shorter ranged.
crimsondave wrote: This is getting ridiculous. I didn't see this much flip out over scatterbikes and riptide spam. Just take their orders and be done with it.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
Do you have some figures for that?
In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.
Let's see though.
Spoiler:
Captain w/MCBG and chainsword Primaris Lieutenant As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled. 4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer. Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers. Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers. Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR. Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.
Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.
Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.
*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.
ross-128 wrote: Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Did you include the cost of the markerlights? Because 500 pts of pathfinders can't do it. It's closer to 760 pts by my count. As for the 633 that you use as your goal value for 3x conscripts cost, I think it's 603 at most - 150 + commissar + platoon commander is 201 the multiplied by 3. This can be brought down further by sharing characters between conscripts units, but lets use 603 as the mark.
ross-128 wrote: Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Almost right on the first one, the fireblade brings it up to 635. With the commander it's also a bit low, I get 531 pts for commander + fireblade + 46 fire warriors. Although it must be said that getting all of these models within 15'' the turn before you fire is rather unrealistic.
ross-128 wrote: Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
I have been reliably informed that getting 150 models within rapid fire range like that is impossible. But certainly true in a mathematical sense, and the conscripts are even better at killing themselves if you get to put enough of them within 12''.
Martel732 wrote: "Somebody fielding 200 conscripts is ridiculous, though. "
Have you met the community? Dual WK, screamerstar, mass scatterbike? People will do it.
The benefit of not being in a tournament is the simple ability to say "no".
<Opponent pulls out 200 conscripts>
"Nope. I'm going to go home and do something constructive. I don't have time to slog through 200 cheap wounds while you tank me to death over a screen."
Melissia wrote: Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.
Why do they get to throw their grenades?
Otherwise I have no issue with your example. 4 tac squads using flamers with support, standing about 8'' away from the conscripts, will kill 33-34 of them with their shooting. I think you would achieve better results if some of your squad members threw frag grenades instead of firing their bolters.
If you're going to include the assault I'd recommend going with genestealers instead, 400 points of those will kill all of the conscripts.
Tetengo wrote: How about something that doesn't magically teleport to within 8"?
Oh, you mean like how people have been making all 50 conscripts magically teleport within 12" completely unharmed in order to "demonstrate" how "powerful" their shooting is, yet you didn't call them out on that?
180*3=540, I'll use that as my limit.
Captain on bike w/storm bolter, power axe. 5x3 scout bikers w/SB on sarge.
Spoiler:
Cap biker gets 8 boltgun shots at 2+, rerolling 1s to hit. 7.778 hits, 5.185 wounds, 3.457 removed models. Scout bikers get 30 shotgun shots at 3+, rerolling 1s to hit. 23&1/3rd hits, 15.556 wounds, 10.37 removed models. Scout bikers get 40 boltgun shots at 3+, rerolling 1s to hit. 31.111 hits, 20.741 wounds, 13.827 removed models. Total around 28 removed models.
They then charge. 5 grenades at 3+ rerolling 1s, 13.611 hits, 6.806 wounds, 4.537 models removed. 1 grenade at 2+ rerolling 1s, 3.403 hits, 1.702 wounds, 1.134 models removed. 35 attacks from the scouts at 3+ rerolling 1s, 27.222 hits, 18.148 wounds, 12 models removed. 4 attacks from the captain at 2+ rerolling 1s, 3.889 hits, 3.241 wounds, all unsaved. Around 5 wounds of overkill.
Done. Fun fact is, I'm not even a veteran marine player here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sossen wrote: Why do they get to throw their grenades?
My bad. I misread the grenade rules. Still, my point is made. Even sacrificing a bolter for a grenade, they still do enough damage that they go in to overkill, and the scout bikers don't even need grenades to go in to overkill.
And these aren't even really spectacular builds. Just something I threw together almost at random.
Melissia wrote: Oh, you mean like how people have been making all 50 conscripts magically teleport within 12" completely unharmed in order to "demonstrate" how "powerful" their shooting is, yet you didn't call them out on that?
I can't recall anyone in this thread saying that getting 50+ infantry models within 12'' of anything is feasible. Except for this:
ross-128 wrote:Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
I think it was the other thread, and I'm not sure if anyone had ever actually said it, but the fundamental baseline for most arguments was that all 50 conscripts were unharmed and present, generally within 12" range. Because "vacuum", I guess.
I think it got called out once or twice, but it didn't really alter anything.
Also, why are there two threads open on what's basically the same thing? Makes me sad.
One thing to keep in mind is it's easier for a small unit to get fully in range of a large unit than vice versa.
For example, if you have one squad of 30 and three squads of 10, it's entirely possible for only 1/3 of the large squad to be within 12" of any one of the small squads, but all three small squads are within 12" of at least part of the large squad (because of the 1/3 that is within 12" of them).
Which means if the 30 man squad targets any one of the 10 man squads, it can only double-tap with 1/3 of its models, but all three 10-man squads can retaliate with double-tapping. It's just one of the advantages of MSU, easier range manipulation.
It's not guaranteed, sure, nothing is guaranteed, it's just skewed a little bit in that direction.
ross-128 wrote: It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.
It takes more than 3x the cost to eliminate the conscripts in a turn. Consider Grey Knights. My best option is the Strike Squad.
40 strike squad marines = 160 shots in rapid fire range. This expects to kill 47 conscripts.
40 strike squad marines costs 210*4 = 840 points.
If you took away the morale immunity, I would still need 20 strike squad marines, which is 410 points, to eliminate them in a turn.
And Grey Knights are notoriously bad at dealing with hordes, so that's closer to complaining that you need to use way too many heavy bolters to kill a Rhino. Well yeah, because heavy bolters are terrible at killing vehicles.
Pathfinders with pulse carbines can remove supported conscripts in one turn for around 500 points, which is well under the 633 you'd have for 3x value. And that's unsupported, Tau have numerous options for buffing pulse fire that can make them vastly more efficient.
Fire Warriors with pulse rifles and a fireblade can get rid of them for 600 points flat at 15". Throw in a Commander and they're at 506, with a bit of overkill due to the commander's guns contributing as well.
Technically the ideal thing would probably be pathfinders with pulse rifles, unfortunately they can't do that. (on that note, does anyone know why Pathfinders are 5 points but Fire Warriors are 8? 3 points is quite a steep premium to go from 5+ to 4+ armor)
And Tau are considered underpowered right now.
Infantry squads with lasguns can also shoot Conscripts off the table for 600 points flat unsupported at 12". 420 points for FRFSRF at 12".
Why do Tau shoot things off the table so much more efficiently than GK? Because Tau is a shooting army, GK is an awkward blend of shooting, assaulting, and psykers. IG and Tau are basically the only two pure (or nearly pure) shooting armies in the game. Anyone else is going to have to throw some assaulting into the mix, because they can't just expect to stand back and shoot those two armies off the table.
That assaulting is nothing to sneeze at either, for armies that are good at it a charge after shooting can get them 1.5x or 2x as much damage done in that turn (partially because a lot of them have equal BS and WS, and as many attacks as they have shots, so it's basically a second shooting phase for them). That's as good as using FRFSRF, albeit much shorter ranged.
In this edition, the storm bolter is the ideal weapon for killing conscripts. At least from a marine standpoint.
And if you're going to say GK suck at dealing with hordes, well, we also suck at dealing at range, too, with our guns not reaching passed 24".
So what does that even mean? We suck at being anti-vehicle, we suck at being anti-horde despite having base wargear that is optimal for dealing with hordes.
Should I just suck it up and expect to be tabled by guard until 9th edition comes out? And Tau get ROCKED by guard, because in practice you won't get any of those units anywhere near the conscripts, and as a long range shooting army, Tau is best equipped to deal with guard in the first place.
Melissia wrote: My bad. I misread the grenade rules. Still, my point is made. Even sacrificing a bolter for a grenade, they still do enough damage that they go in to overkill, and the scout bikers don't even need grenades to go in to overkill.
And these aren't even really spectacular builds. Just something I threw together almost at random.
There's nothing wrong with the math, but each example requires close range and then includes the assault figures. There are plenty of examples of units that can achieve this level of efficiency vs conscripts with melee, such as my genestealer example. What I am questioning is the vailidity of the original statement:
ross-128 wrote:It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts
I'm interested in the instances where pure anti-infantry shooting can be that efficient. Preferrably outside of flamer range, at that point it's basically a melee unit anyway.
It's not my fault the psychic phase got nerfed to into the ground as a reaction to psykers being too strong in 6th/7th. I certainly agree that ideally balance would be handled with a more delicate hand than that, but just because GKs became collateral damage in GW nuking the psychic phase is no reason to try to drag everyone else down with them.
If you're lucky you won't have to wait until 9th because GW will make GK better at being psykers in the codex. But the fact of the matter is, the GK pretty much rise and fall on how the psychic phase is handled because all of their units are psykers.
And I will say this: fire warriors are over-pointed if you ask me. Tau would benefit a lot if pathfinders could take pulse rifles, and if fire warriors were dropped to 7 points. Maaaaybe 6, that might be too far the other way. The only reason they were stacking up so well in a shooting-only comparison is because, like I said, there are only two shooting-focused armies in the game and one of them is Guard.
Also, 8 points for drones is way too much. They're only BS5+ and they don't get to pick their targets, they should only cost 6 points at most and I'm only estimating that high because of savior protocols.
Colonel Cross wrote: I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.
I'm more concerned about not being able to efficiently cause damage. They never get within range if I don't want them to.
ross-128 wrote: It's not my fault the psychic phase got nerfed to into the ground as a reaction to psykers being too strong in 6th/7th. I certainly agree that ideally balance would be handled with a more delicate hand than that, but just because GKs became collateral damage in GW nuking the psychic phase is no reason to try to drag everyone else down with them.
If you're lucky you won't have to wait until 9th because GW will make GK better at being psykers in the codex. But the fact of the matter is, the GK pretty much rise and fall on how the psychic phase is handled because all of their units are psykers.
And I will say this: fire warriors are over-pointed if you ask me. Tau would benefit a lot if pathfinders could take pulse rifles, and if fire warriors were dropped to 7 points. Maaaaybe 6, that might be too far the other way. The only reason they were stacking up so well in a shooting-only comparison is because, like I said, there are only two shooting-focused armies in the game and one of them is Guard.
Also, 8 points for drones is way too much. They're only BS5+ and they don't get to pick their targets, they should only cost 6 points at most and I'm only estimating that high because of savior protocols.
But that's the thing, Grey Knights weren't even strong in terms of psychic in 7th edition. We had some warp dice, but not enough to really do anything meaningful compared to other psyker armies. Additionally, it was tough to make use out of the new Space Marines powers because most tournament formats had them banned completely.
I will say that I actually stand a chance against daemons now in 8th, where i had absolutely 0 chance in 7th.
It's fine. I struggled with Tau, Eldar, and Daemons in 7th, and i'll struggle with Imperial Guard, overall Astra Millitarium, and Tau (because of Forgeworld, they do well against against GK), in 8th.
sossen wrote: I'm interested in the instances where pure anti-infantry shooting can be that efficient. Preferrably outside of flamer range, at that point it's basically a melee unit anyway.
In that case you'll have to look outside of Space Marines. Space Marines are generalists; they utilize their points best when they shoot and then assault. Because otherwise you're saying "I want to have close combat ability, but not use it". And, similarly, if you want something outside of rapid fire range, you're also going to be paying points for the privilege of range.
Bear in mind, though, I'm not using any stratagems, chapter tactics, psychic powers, or what have you, these are just purely unit vs unit mathhammer with the occasional character aura buff. Imperial Fists come to mind as a faction that can very much turn this calculation on its head with their bolter drill.
On one hand I'm kind of glad the GK are immune to the Primaris nonsense, but on the other hand, I sort of wish that they got something like the Lieutenants.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
5 TLAC Razorbacks will kill many. Put enough of a dent to circumvent them, or wipe them out with any troops headed towards the tanks.
But you could spend the other 1400 points on Lasers to kill the tanks behind the conscripts, then the TLAC razors could spend the entire game gunning down conscrips and tally a high murder count to clear objectives or whatever.
Or you swap it and go with Lazorbacks etc. to kill tanks, and use basic marines to face down conscripts over the course of the game. They dont really so enough damage to win a firefight with the right troops.
Besides, tactical marines can easily wipe out conscripts at short range with a few rounds of shooting, especially after the conscripts have been hit hard by other shooting. Hell, if you have a five-man unit of Reivers, you can even stop the conscripts from doing overwatch, and just pile in afterwards with ground-pounder assault marines that were riding in your TLAC razors.
Hell, I showed how a few cheap tac squads with flamer/combiflamer could potentially wipe out an entire conscript squad in one turn earlier. And then they're free to do whatever else you need them to do afterwards, because it's not like they just vanish after they kill those conscripts.
Melissia wrote: Besides, tactical marines can easily wipe out conscripts at short range with a few rounds of shooting, especially after the conscripts have been hit hard by other shooting. Hell, if you have a five-man unit of Reivers, you can even stop the conscripts from doing overwatch, and just pile in afterwards with ground-pounder assault marines that were riding in your TLAC razors.
Hell, I showed how a few cheap tac squads with flamer/combiflamer could potentially wipe out an entire conscript squad in one turn earlier. And then they're free to do whatever else you need them to do afterwards, because it's not like they just vanish after they kill those conscripts.
Not when the rest of the guard list kills your guys while you are wasting you time shooting 3 pt models. Marines don't have a few rounds against guard.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
5 TLAC Razorbacks will kill many. Put enough of a dent to circumvent them, or wipe them out with any troops headed towards the tanks.
But you could spend the other 1400 points on Lasers to kill the tanks behind the conscripts, then the TLAC razors could spend the entire game gunning down conscrips and tally a high murder count to clear objectives or whatever.
Or you swap it and go with Lazorbacks etc. to kill tanks, and use basic marines to face down conscripts over the course of the game. They dont really so enough damage to win a firefight with the right troops.
TLAC is probably getting the nerf bat and I don't own any anyway. Conscripts will probably have their turn as well. T3 5+ is kinda undercosted in 8th. Also, I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TLAC razors to a standard game.
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.
By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.
5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
how about a unit of 6 triple flamer crisis suits? Wow...28 kills. This unit costs over 400 points.
Why do these guys cost less than termagants again? who have a worse weapon and worse armor save? because they have +2 movement?
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.
The problem is that 8th edition games tend to end with someone getting tabled before turn 6 is over, those razorbacks would be taking fire from anti-tank weapons before long.
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.
Vacume - the razors cant shoot if they have been charged and if they move they are -1 bs. The Razors also degrade and in reality - games don't go past turn 3 anyways.
What actually happens in game is. Razors shoot at conscripts doing minimal damage while conscripts move up and shoot infantry. Las cannosn take out the razors effortlessly. And the guard win.
When you bring the "right tools for the job" and statistically can't even destroy your prefered target in 6 turns. SOMETHING IS WRONG.
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
The stated problem was the following:
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
4 turns of 600 points worth of Razorback fire will kill 100+ conscripts (Averaging 27.5 kills a turn.), and the conscripts won't be able to do much in return.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TLAC razors to a standard game.
Let the record state that we're arguing with Martel"I'm-not-going-to-adjust-my-list-to-solve-a-problem-just-like-last-edition-therefore-enemy-must-be-OP"732.
Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2). Frags up the average, and assaults will give you more.
If you're worried about proximity, 600 points worth of marines with Heavy Bolters average 28.7 kills a turn.
For those curious, 600 points of Assault Marines kill 22 conscripts in the CC phase. This is not including pistols, grenades, or the decent number of flamers you could bring with you.
All of these options will whittle away conscripts to victory, as conscripts just don't average very high damage output. (100 conscript shots killing 3.6 marines)
But if conscripts are really sticking in your craw, it's almost like you could use a combined arms approach with your entire army's (2000 points) anti-infantry gear, and get rid of far more than 30ish of them in a turn to get at the tanks (or whatever) beyond.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.
Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.
Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.
Vacume - the razors cant shoot if they have been charged and if they move they are -1 bs. The Razors also degrade and in reality - games don't go past turn 3 anyways.
What actually happens in game is. Razors shoot at conscripts doing minimal damage while conscripts move up and shoot infantry. Las cannosn take out the razors effortlessly. And the guard win.
If you are shooting conscripts while there are lascannons next to them, then conscripts aren't the reason the guard won
When you bring the "right tools for the job" and statistically can't even destroy your prefered target in 6 turns. SOMETHING IS WRONG.
There are multiple things wrong IMO.
First, the fact that razorbacks can even table conscripts at all just shows how powerful razorbacks are (or maybe just assault cannons...) Veterans/Guardians/Firewarriors, or any other ~10 points/model GEQ would all be tabled in 2-3 turns and that's a much bigger balance problem than conscripts staying alive. Second, survivable units like conscripts are actually good for the game right now with how much firepower there is, specifically to prevent getting tabled in 3 turns. Third, the most legitimate arguments against conscripts are that they do too much damage for how durable they are (roughly the same as veterans but with a lower HQ tax) and how hard they counter melee units.
Xenomancers wrote: 5 TLAC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.
The stated problem was the following:
Martel732 wrote: I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.
4 turns of 600 points worth of Razorback fire will kill 100+ conscripts (Averaging 27.5 kills a turn.), and the conscripts won't be able to do much in return.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TLAC razors to a standard game.
Let the record state that we're arguing with Martel"I'm-not-going-to-adjust-my-list-to-solve-a-problem-just-like-last-edition-therefore-enemy-must-be-OP"732.
Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2). Frags up the average, and assaults will give you more.
If you're worried about proximity, 600 points worth of marines with Heavy Bolters average 28.7 kills a turn.
For those curious, 600 points of Assault Marines kill 22 conscripts in the CC phase. This is not including pistols, grenades, or the decent number of flamers you could bring with you.
All of these options will whittle away conscripts to victory, as conscripts just don't average very high damage output. (100 conscript shots killing 3.6 marines)
But if conscripts are really sticking in your craw, it's almost like you could use a combined arms approach with your entire army's (2000 points) anti-infantry gear, and get rid of far more than 30ish of them in a turn to get at the tanks (or whatever) beyond.
There are lists with other challenges I have to deal with you know. Part of the issue with conscripts is that they require such extreme specialization to even have a chance to deal with.
I adapted plenty in 7th. There were just limited tools available to BA. No invis, no mini-MCs (TWC), no gladius etc. We were vanilla marines with nothing that made vanilla marines good.
Killing 22 conscripts with 600 pts of stuff is a win for the IG. I can't believe the Tau/Eldar math disease has spread so quickly.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.
Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
For the record, I have not once reference their damage output, only their insane durability/pt.
The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
There are lists with other challenges I have to deal with you know. Part of the issue with conscripts is that they require such extreme specialization to even have a chance to deal with.
I adapted plenty in 7th. There were just limited tools available to BA. No invis, no mini-MCs (TWC), no gladius etc. We were vanilla marines with nothing that made vanilla marines good.
Killing 22 conscripts with 600 pts of stuff is a win for the IG. I can't believe the Tau/Eldar math disease has spread so quickly.
Martel, Assault Cannons are good against e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y.
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Martel732 wrote: The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
We know that, but we also know that you can shoot past the conscripts too. Tanks are big.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.
Drive up to them in tanks.
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
Martel732 wrote: The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.
Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).
I'll assume your math is good, so...
400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts
401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.
(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)
I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.
Thread: "Conscripts and IG are unbeatable!"
Melissia: "No, you just have to use more points to kill them than they're worth if you want to get rid of them in one turn. 3x points seems to be the standard, like for most things."
Thread: "There's no SM units that can do that!"
Melissia: "Here's an set of units that could."
Thread: "They'd never get there before dying."
Melissia: "Okay, well, here's another set of units that could wipe them AND get there in time."
Thread: "Conscripts and IG are unbeatable!"
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.
Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.
Concentrated anything the the level of 4-5x the points of the target will bring anything down. I can't believe people are even suggesting this.
Martel732 wrote:The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.
I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.
Drive up to them in tanks.
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).
I'll assume your math is good, so...
400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts
401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.
(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)
I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.
Why are you guys assuming the Guard get to fire first?
They have more drops. The tanks can drive up 18", dick around (blow smoke to make the IG hit on a 5+ and the Conscripts hit on a 6+?), some will get killed, some won't, but either way the infantry disembarks 9" (or 3" if their tank is destroyed and moves 6") putting them 27" upfield. That means anything within 35" of their original deployment is in-range, and in certain deployments that literally means there is 1" between the board edge and their maximum range.
And no, you don't have to include the transports in the cost of 'what unit killed conscripts' just like you don't have to include the conscripts as the support for the tanks that kill the rhinos.
Martel732 wrote: The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.
Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).
I'll assume your math is good, so...
400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts
401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.
(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)
I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.
Don't attack them point point for point. Why would you? If you have to remove them, attack them with much more than they're worth.
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).
That's why it's a game, decisions matter.
They can attack all of it. That's the problem you aren't getting. They've got undercosted choices on top of undercosted conscripts.
"Martel, Assault Cannons are good against e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y."
I disagree. They are pretty crappy vs mech. Especially for their cost.
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).
That's why it's a game, decisions matter.
They will inevitably have a much larger firebase than you given that the conscripts only represent a small portion of the AM points and the marines have already spent more than 3x the cost of conscripts on things that are only intended to kill conscripts in one turn. Because of their superior firebase they can afford to do both.
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).
That's why it's a game, decisions matter.
They can attack all of it. That's the problem you aren't getting. They've got undercosted choices on top of undercosted conscripts.
Undercosted or more specialized? The fact that we get super-cheap lascannon HWTs (for example) is because they vaporize more easily than a quad-las predator.
Now I know you think there's no value in being a generalist and that everyone should just be specialists, but IMHO that's one of the Marine's weaknesses: being okay at everything means you have to pay to be mediocre at whatever you're doing at the time.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.
Martel732 wrote: The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.
I disagree. T3 5+ for 4 pts is not bad.
If it wasn't for the Officer tax to give orders, Infantry squads would be better than conscripts
Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.
The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).
That's why it's a game, decisions matter.
They can attack all of it. That's the problem you aren't getting. They've got undercosted choices on top of undercosted conscripts.
Undercosted or more specialized? The fact that we get super-cheap lascannon HWTs (for example) is because they vaporize more easily than a quad-las predator.
Now I know you think there's no value in being a generalist and that everyone should just be specialists, but IMHO that's one of the Marine's weaknesses: being okay at everything means you have to pay to be mediocre at whatever you're doing at the time.
It's a critical weakness. Always has been. In editions without fru-fru-la-la gimmicks marines are a marginal list. I know most of the posters on here don't remember that, or have selective memories, but that's the way it was. 8th ed is now triple downing on that weakness it seems.
Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.
Concentrated anything the the level of 4-5x the points of the target will bring anything down. I can't believe people are even suggesting this.
Right? I mean... it should be obvious...
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.
I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...
... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...
Why are you guys assuming the Guard get to fire first?
They have more drops. The tanks can drive up 18", dick around (blow smoke to make the IG hit on a 5+ and the Conscripts hit on a 6+?), some will get killed, some won't, but either way the infantry disembarks 9" (or 3" if their tank is destroyed and moves 6") putting them 27" upfield. That means anything within 35" of their original deployment is in-range, and in certain deployments that literally means there is 1" between the board edge and their maximum range.
They have about a 30% chance to go first if they blow a command point on the Seize Roll, roughly. I mean, that's 30% on two die rolls, so it's more than a little vulnerable to improbable outcomes, kinda like how assuming a single die roll is going to get a result of 3.5. Honestly, I think that seeming assumption is an underlying indicator of the greater issue, but I'm not sure there's any solving that, particularly when three viable looking solutions have been suggested already, and we went back to page 1 immediately after.
Why are you guys assuming the Guard get to fire first?
They have more drops. The tanks can drive up 18", dick around (blow smoke to make the IG hit on a 5+ and the Conscripts hit on a 6+?), some will get killed, some won't, but either way the infantry disembarks 9" (or 3" if their tank is destroyed and moves 6") putting them 27" upfield. That means anything within 35" of their original deployment is in-range, and in certain deployments that literally means there is 1" between the board edge and their maximum range.
They have about a 30% chance to go first if they blow a command point on the Seize Roll, roughly. I mean, that's 30% on two die rolls, so it's more than a little vulnerable to improbable outcomes, kinda like how assuming a single die roll is going to get a result of 3.5. Honestly, I think that seeming assumption is an underlying indicator of the greater issue, but I'm not sure there's any solving that, particularly when three viable looking solutions have been suggested already, and we went back to page 1 immediately after.
Yeah, though that 30% cost them a command point, so it's not like it's 'free'. It cost as many points as taking two relics as Space Marines does.
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
If you truly think that tac marines with flamers in transports are a good solution then I suggest that you try it in practice. They have the exact same problems that khorne berzerkers have, amplified by the fact that the khorne berzerkers are more efficient conscript killers. It might even work out, due to luck or poor positioning by the AM player.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.
I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...
... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...
It's true that my real life examples don't include the los blocker because I don't bring snipers, but it wouldn't really hurt my normal opponent's set-up to put those officers behind a tank.
The way GW handled the Flyer Spam lists has made me want to find a creative way of discouraging people from using to many conscripts. Maybe conscripts cant hold objectives?
I feel like most people screaming against conscripts have never played with or against them yet. Ive used them now and yes they are good but i don't feel like they are the ultimate powerhouse everyone is making them out to be.
The reason i feel they are good and not broken is that they really can only do one thing at a time. People constantly point out they are broken because they can
1. screen units
2. dish out massive shots with FRFSRF 3. Not be removed from objectives
Its true that they can do all three of these things but its impossible to do all three at one time. If you are bubble wrapping your army you cannot get your units all into rapid fire range and you cannot take objectives. If you take objectives you are not bubble rapping your army and are likely out of range of the rapid fire FRFSRF. If you are maximizing shots for FRFSRF you are not bubble wrapping or taking objectives. If you are holding an objective and an opponent makes in into CC you cannot just "fallback and shoot" without giving up the objective and most of the time after eating a round of shooting and CC your unit is reduced enough to not be a real shooting threat to most units. Furthermore if you are doing anything other then a conga line wrap you will not have a commander that is 1. in range of two units 2. protected from multi charge by 2 units 3. 1-2 apply to commissar. So that increases the total cost of the unit. If you want to use one of each for both squads you give up all maneuverability and any good general will now out maneuver. Honestly any mission rolled up that isn't straight kill points where your conscripts can just sit back and bubble wrap they really aren't broken in.
TL;DR
Obviously this is my opinion but I'm curious how many people calling them broken have actually seen conscript span fielded or played against it. On paper the unit is broken but when adding in maneuverability and real gameplay the unit is strong but not broken imo
Howscat wrote: The way GW handled the Flyer Spam lists has made me want to find a creative way of discouraging people from using to many conscripts. Maybe conscripts cant hold objectives?
That makes little sense and still prevents you from capping the objective.
sossen wrote: If you truly think that tac marines with flamers in transports are a good solution then I suggest that you try it in practice.
I think Tac Marines with Bolters and Frag (armed with AT weapons otherwise) and supported with more specialist equipment like TLAC Razorbacks are an adequate solution. And I will play it, thanks!
That implies that the AM player isn't tabling their opponent. Surviving until the end of the game is rare enough for most armies that an AM player with enough firepower doesn't need to worry about objectives.
Asmodios wrote: I feel like most people screaming against conscripts have never played with or against them yet. Ive used them now and yes they are good but i don't feel like they are the ultimate powerhouse everyone is making them out to be.
The reason i feel they are good and not broken is that they really can only do one thing at a time. People constantly point out they are broken because they can
1. screen units
2. dish out massive shots with FRFSRF 3. Not be removed from objectives
Its true that they can do all three of these things but its impossible to do all three at one time. If you are bubble wrapping your army you cannot get your units all into rapid fire range and you cannot take objectives. If you take objectives you are not bubble rapping your army and are likely out of range of the rapid fire FRFSRF. If you are maximizing shots for FRFSRF you are not bubble wrapping or taking objectives. If you are holding an objective and an opponent makes in into CC you cannot just "fallback and shoot" without giving up the objective and most of the time after eating a round of shooting and CC your unit is reduced enough to not be a real shooting threat to most units. Furthermore if you are doing anything other then a conga line wrap you will not have a commander that is 1. in range of two units 2. protected from multi charge by 2 units 3. 1-2 apply to commissar. So that increases the total cost of the unit. If you want to use one of each for both squads you give up all maneuverability and any good general will now out maneuver. Honestly any mission rolled up that isn't straight kill points where your conscripts can just sit back and bubble wrap they really aren't broken in.
TL;DR
Obviously this is my opinion but I'm curious how many people calling them broken have actually seen conscript span fielded or played against it. On paper the unit is broken but when adding in maneuverability and real gameplay the unit is strong but not broken imo
I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with.
sossen wrote: If you truly think that tac marines with flamers in transports are a good solution then I suggest that you try it in practice.
I think Tac Marines with Bolters and Frag (armed with AT weapons otherwise) and supported with more specialist equipment like TLAC Razorbacks are an adequate solution. And I will play it, thanks!
I think you are dead wrong and will find out the harsh reality. Maybe you'll end up agreeing. Although we really need GW to agree more than posters. IG has tabled me all three times I've played them. Conscripts were part of that equation, functioning as a super tarpit.
Martel732 wrote: The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.
And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.
I disagree. T3 5+ for 4 pts is not bad.
Sure, it's not bad...but it's 10 guys with no real survivability and that can become a mishmash of range bands for effectiveness, and the Orders that used to give some interesting effects to the whole squad("Fire on my Target!" and its Ignores Cover trait, for example) no longer exist so you want squads that are set up for specific weapons.
That's why Conscripts are so wildly effective, they synergize with FRSRF because you have a whole squad with the exact same weapon that benefits so heavily from the Order.
I think you are dead wrong and will find out the harsh reality. Maybe you'll end up agreeing. Although we really need GW to agree more than posters. IG has tabled me all three times I've played them. Conscripts were part of that equation, functioning as a super tarpit.
I think you are dead wrong and will find out the harsh reality. Maybe you'll end up agreeing. Although we really need GW to agree more than posters. IG has tabled me all three times I've played them. Conscripts were part of that equation, functioning as a super tarpit.
Was it the same opponent in each game?
One guy twice, and then another guy. Lists were 60%ish similar. One guy had Vendetta, which was just brutal. My jumpers can hide from the conscripts, but not the Wyverns and Manticores. But I can't close on the conscripts because I can't afford to take the extra fire on top of the indirect fire tanks. It's a total gakstorm. Any tanks with anything resembling anti-infantry get lascannoned. They don't care about anti-tank guns, because they are willing to throw them away to kill my anti-infantry. Units with anti-tank can't do anything to conscripts or even 4 X IG squads.
"I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob
Asmodios wrote: "I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob
The melee units get crippled before they can assault. Or they assault, kill 20 guys, and then get erased. IG guy can afford to lose 20 conscripts in exchange for a HTH unit all day. IG firebase is too big and they have too many wounds on the table. Hard stop. I don't know many other ways to explain this. And yes, I'm playing IG guys building the most abusive stuff they can think of. Gak happens.
"will just crush you over a few turns"
This is fine for the IG player. He is paying a 150 pt squad to buy time holding off 300+ pts. No matter what you do, it's a win-win-win for the IG.
Howscat wrote: The way GW handled the Flyer Spam lists has made me want to find a creative way of discouraging people from using to many conscripts. Maybe conscripts cant hold objectives?
That makes little sense and still prevents you from capping the objective.
It basically gives your opponents army obsec which at a tournament level is a huge boost. Sure the IG player can prevent you from scouring that point buy setting his unit on top of the objective but he is not scouring it either. From my experience at competitive tournament level games, conscripts are good but they can be dealt with. What conscripts give the guard is the ability to not worry about always having 2nd turn. The Alpha Strike is big in 8th ed. and conscripts are padding against it.
Not really. They don't provide cover for anything. They are a physical movement barrier. That's what they really do. And if you get too close, they shoot you 200 times. But that's something you volunteer for, they can't make that happen. Maybe a mobile Eldar mech list that lances/shuricannons down all the IG anti-tank might have a shot. Maybe. But nothing the marines can field really stands up. Quad las preds are expensive and fragile, and stormravens can't be taken in sufficient numbers anymore (rightfully so). Devs are inefficient. Land speeders cost a TON.
Howscat wrote: The way GW handled the Flyer Spam lists has made me want to find a creative way of discouraging people from using to many conscripts. Maybe conscripts cant hold objectives?
That makes little sense and still prevents you from capping the objective.
It basically gives your opponents army obsec which at a tournament level is a huge boost. Sure the IG player can prevent you from scouring that point buy setting his unit on top of the objective but he is not scouring it either. From my experience at competitive tournament level games, conscripts are good but they can be dealt with. What conscripts give the guard is the ability to not worry about always having 2nd turn. The Alpha Strike is big in 8th ed. and conscripts are padding against it.
They don't always have the second turn with either ITC or core rules. They will have turn 1 at least 31% of the time, assuming that a CP reroll is earmarked for rerolling the seize.
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
So Tactical Squads are your best units now?
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion. I can think of no worse unit to bring into a game than a tactical marine. Maybe - scout bikes. They are the best anti infantry option marines have. 6 str 4 shots a piece for 25 points on a 16 inch move platform. Still would take them 5 turns for a 6 man scout bike to completely remove a 50 man conscript (if they were completely ignored.) To bad they average 2 scout bike kills a turn in return fire (without orders). It doesn't get any better if the scout-bikes charge ether.
Martel732 wrote: So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.
Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.
And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion. I can think of no worse unit to bring into a game than a tactical marine. Maybe - scout bikes. They are the best anti infantry option marines have. 6 str 4 shots a piece for 25 points on a 16 inch move platform. Still would take them 5 turns for a 6 man scout bike to completely remove a 50 man conscript (if they were completely ignored.) To bad they average 2 scout bike kills a turn in return fire (without orders). It doesn't get any better if the scout-bikes charge ether.
Sounds like your current method is working fine then.
Martel732 wrote: So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.
Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.
And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.
a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before
b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units?
c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?
Asmodios wrote: "I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob
The melee units get crippled before they can assault. Or they assault, kill 20 guys, and then get erased. IG guy can afford to lose 20 conscripts in exchange for a HTH unit all day. IG firebase is too big and they have too many wounds on the table. Hard stop. I don't know many other ways to explain this. And yes, I'm playing IG guys building the most abusive stuff they can think of. Gak happens.
"will just crush you over a few turns"
This is fine for the IG player. He is paying a 150 pt squad to buy time holding off 300+ pts. No matter what you do, it's a win-win-win for the IG.
Im not sure who you are playing against but the opponents i have played against have had zero problems getting to me turn one (orks with weird boy jump turn one charge. CSM with terminator deep strike turn one charge followed up by rhino bezerkers and DP turn 2 charges. Harliquins getting their entire army across the board turn 1) almost every army i have played against has had something get in turn 1 and only a single game have i managed to steal the first turn. If you lose 20 conscripts you now also run into two problems 1. the unit is getting close to combat ineffective levels where your opponent no longer has to worry about any real damage output. 2. You are now stuck in CC if you fall back your bubble wrap most likely is not working anymore (either something was killed out with the 20 wounds, you had to fall back out of bubble wrapping everything or you placed so far away people can now multi charge into your units behind next turn). Realistically conscripts buy you one turn of shooting with your good stuff and thats only if you use them to conga line which means no FRFSRF bubble and no objective holding. Yes they would be broken if everyone was foot slogging across the board with no protection but thats another issue. With the amount of turn 1 charge possibilities this edition conscripts give guard a turn of bubble wrap, sometimes this is good enough sometimes its not. Just curious have you played against it several different times with different armies? I've now used them against several different players with completely different armies and list and they are good but i haven't found them broken at all.
Martel732 wrote: So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.
Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.
And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.
a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units? c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?
a) This is probably true, but it's also true of a bazillion other units. I think they're trying to make spamming infantry not awful for the armies that are supposed to spam infantry. b) It's not, but Orders usually weren't given to single 10-man basic infantry squads either. They were used on 50-man Infantry Squad blobs, which were conscripts but with BS4+. If they brought that back I'd be happy. c) This is wishy-washy for me but I play a superheavy tank company anyways so I don't really have a comment.
Not really. They don't provide cover for anything. They are a physical movement barrier. That's what they really do. And if you get too close, they shoot you 200 times. But that's something you volunteer for, they can't make that happen. Maybe a mobile Eldar mech list that lances/shuricannons down all the IG anti-tank might have a shot. Maybe. But nothing the marines can field really stands up. Quad las preds are expensive and fragile, and stormravens can't be taken in sufficient numbers anymore (rightfully so). Devs are inefficient. Land speeders cost a TON.
You don't need cover from the IG perspective. All you need is to shoot back. Most alpha strike lists are done with close combat or close range shooting which conscripts prevent from occurring. Very few armies can out range IG making conscripts huge for the cheap artillery IG can output. OR it is conscripts with scion plasma spam which will be fixed when the codex is released.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.
I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...
... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...
It's true that my real life examples don't include the los blocker because I don't bring snipers, but it wouldn't really hurt my normal opponent's set-up to put those officers behind a tank.
Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.
The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.
If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.
I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.
Martel732 wrote: So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.
Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.
And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.
a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before
b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units?
c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?
a) This is probably true, but it's also true of a bazillion other units. I think they're trying to make spamming infantry not awful for the armies that are supposed to spam infantry.
b) It's not, but Orders usually weren't given to single 10-man basic infantry squads either. They were used on 50-man Infantry Squad blobs, which were conscripts but with BS4+. If they brought that back I'd be happy.
This is actually one of the things that I was against as well. I hated the idea of blob squads, still do.
I think that maybe, just maybe, Orders should be shifted to being an activated thing from the officer and essentially be an aura that affects units with Vox-Casters.
c) This is wishy-washy for me but I play a superheavy tank company anyways so I don't really have a comment.
I think, if anything, more Orders should have been put in or there should have been Orders for the specific Regiments.
But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!
WHAT THEN
You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.
I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...
... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...
It's true that my real life examples don't include the los blocker because I don't bring snipers, but it wouldn't really hurt my normal opponent's set-up to put those officers behind a tank.
Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.
The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.
If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.
I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.
My only question would be are you only playing kill point game? any objective based game if you placed half the objectives decently and considering they cannot be played within 6" of a table edge or 12" of each other would mean that he's going to have to table you in order to win or be forced to move the conscripts bubble out in order to claim objectives which then leaves him open to deep strikes. If this is all your opponent does just take tons of anti tank stuff sit out of conscripts range and blast his tanks off the table. Or just sit out of LOS or in cover and jump onto the spread out objectives last turn and win.
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
So Tactical Squads are your best units now?
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
So Tactical Squads are your best units now?
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.
Hey man, your words not mine.
I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
Every game of 8th I've played came down to objectives. Even one where I had ~9 models left on the board was a close loss (12-10) maelstrom. That's the closest either side has come to being tabled in all of my games, and ironically it was the only one where I brought 4 instead of my usual 3 superheavy tanks.
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?
People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
So Tactical Squads are your best units now?
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.
Hey man, your words not mine.
I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.
Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"
Perhaps we should compare conscripts to Storm Ravens or Terminators or something ... tell me, what's another OP unit we can compare conscripts to? Brimstone horrors?
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?
People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)
My typical 2k list is 1500-1750 points of superheavy tank, and the rest is regular IG stuff (usually 2 infantry squads, a scion squad, and some change).
Even with that ridiculous amount of firepower, I'm lucky to destroy 1 unit per turn if I concentrate fire, and the same can be said for them - they're lucky to down a Baneblade in a single turn; that's never actually happened yet.
Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.
So Tactical Squads are your best units now?
No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.
Hey man, your words not mine.
I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.
Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"
Perhaps we should compare conscripts to Storm Ravens or Terminators or something ... tell me, what's another OP unit we can compare conscripts to? Brimstone horrors?
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?
People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)
My typical 2k list is 1500-1750 points of superheavy tank, and the rest is regular IG stuff (usually 2 infantry squads, a scion squad, and some change).
Even with that ridiculous amount of firepower, I'm lucky to destroy 1 unit per turn if I concentrate fire, and the same can be said for them - they're lucky to down a Baneblade in a single turn; that's never actually happened yet.
Do you want me to start listing 300 point unit/unit combos that can kill a storm raven in a single turn? Because they do exist. We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue? Plus you can't bring a full army of storm ravens anymore (which was the only issue anyways as it ensured first strike 100% of the time)
Xenomancers wrote: What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.
The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?
People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)
Ive only witnessed 2 games where armies got tabled and one ahas when i stole the first turn from an ad mech player who deployed as if he was getting the first turn to reach some good cover that also had objectives. Different meta in my area i guess but while armies are obviously getting thinned out very few have been tabled
Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"
400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts
401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.
(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)
I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.
400 points of marines kills 46 points of conscripts a turn. 400 points of conscripts kills 252 points of marines a turn. Go ahead and nit-pick about how marines can all get into rapid-fire range slightly easier than conscripts can - it doesn't change the overwhelmingly massive discrepancy..
And all the math I've seen in all these threads showing how they're also more durable is brushed off as "well that's why you take them"
Both together is just stupidly, stupidly good.
I am sorry for copy/pasting my own quote, but how is this (marginally) better? Or are you saying they're only marginally better without orders (I never know when we're making that assumption or not) in which case I agree. Tactical marines are not good but they are the closest thing to a baseline that this game has, so being equal to them is essentially fine, being a little better is all most generalist units strive for. Even without orders conscripts will still leave tac marines in the dust and be a good unit, just not an OP monster.
Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.
The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.
If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.
I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.
Okay, so I think I'm starting to better understand this a little. It sounds like he's not playing the game; he's playing the table. Do you like this guy? Sounds like he would get on my nerves quite a bit.
Anyway, I think the problem is that you went into this wanting a solution when really you need to convey a message. if that's literally the only thing he does every time, I recommend the following list:
You can mix and match a few weapons and maybe add warlocks to double your fun, but the base premise is the same. That list says "You like characters? So do it. I will be the reason why we cannot have nice things. feth off kindly and lets have a reasonable game next time." because now he has to chew through 22 5W characters with 4++ that he has to measure to each one to figure out which one is the closest, and he can only ever shoot at one at a time with everything he has, and he gets to play his game where he hides in the corner, rolling dice, and you get to play your game where you take all the rest of the objectives and enjoy that blast markers don't exist anymore. The fusion guns are on the off chance that he sees the writing on the wall and starts moving his tanks out toward you.
Xenomancers wrote: We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?
Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.
You do realize that practically any infantry unit that charges a conscript unit loses out in the process right? They have insane overwatch...are fearless...and can fall back and shoot. What does a unit gain by charging conscripts other than losing more points in the end? If they couldn't fall back and shoot you'd have a point - but they can.
Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!
The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.
I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.
This is the general experience. My games look a little different, since they usually have a ruins, and wedged inside that ruins are manticores. So they bubble wrap the front and the sides to push back charge radius. It's less rapid fire shots, but it means that i physically cannot see the 4+ manticores that squash a huge chunk of my army every turn, so ranging them down isn't an option.
I have to take the fight to them, but i can't get through the conscripts.
here is every game against imperial guard right now for me:
1. Can't shoot the tanks.
2. Must kill the conscripts.
3. Try to kill the conscripts, or get around them somehow.
4. Fail, every single time, and lose.
I have tried:
1. Twin Linked assault cannons (razorbacks, land raiders, et al). Investing so heavily in these tanks means the rest of your list is underpowered. You will not be able to kill Leman Russes with this list, but they sure can kill you.
2. Incinerator spam (effectively 3.5 auto-hits from an assault cannon, expected) (My heavy, purgation squads). If these guys get close they do damage, but at 33 points per model, even if each one kills 6 conscripts a turn, they're not making their points back by a mile, and they can't weather a lasgun shots - orders or not.
3. Mass Storm Bolters in cover to whittle them down, delivered into rapid-fire range by deep strike (my PAGK). This is the best option, for me, really. I have a 2+ save because of cover. But manticores and wyverns say no, here are mass dice to ensure you lose models.
4. Jumping over them with interceptors (my only FA). Another thing that works reasonably well, but it's a 2-turn gambit at LEAST, and it only works on bad guard players who don't understand they can retreat with their conscripts to keep my jump post-deep strike or disembark in front of them, so at best i'm charging conscripts again.
5. Charging them with heavy bodies (Paladins /w nemesis falchions). 10x paladins = 30 wounds, and 40 falchion attacks at strength 4 ap-2. Doesn't that sound menacing and like the perfect weapon for conscripts? Problem: Even with my reroll bubble from Draigo, these guys are gonna kill between 20-26 conscripts. Half the blob. Then, they get annihilated. Oh, and they cost a paltry 550, + Draigo, for 790 points. This is also assuming that they and Draigo nail the charge. If i fail that charge, the Paladins get mopped up, because your tanks deal D3 damage.
6. Bringing Lascannons, or other heavy weapons (razorbacks, land raiders) failed miserably since i can't see his tanks, but they can shoot me. I have to spend my first turn moving, assuming it's physically possible for me to see the tanks. So, i'm getting shot without returning fire for a turn. Then, turn 2, i'm in range, but i moved, and i'm degraded, so hitting on 5s, or rolling a lot less dice. Then turn 3 comes around, and my tanks are just popping and degrading left and right.
Now it could be i'm a terrible player as has been insinuated. Maybe I need to "Get Good." But for goodness sake, this is frustrating.
I have an ITC tournament tomorrow and I can guarantee you i'll be facing Guard at least twice.
Here's my list:
Draigo
Celestine
5x Incinerator Purgators, riding in Raven
5x Gatling Psilencer Purgators, deployed in cover for turn 1 gate
5x Interceptors, deployed on the table
5x Interceptors, deployed on the table
5x Terminators /w falchions, riding in a Raven
1x Dakka Nemesis Dreadknight /w Teleporter
1x Dakka Raven + Melta
1x Dakka Raven + Melta
The basic gist is to do a wicked gnarly alpha strike. Draigo gives rerolls to 5 purgators, 10 interceptors, 2 ravens, 1 nemesis dreadknight, turn 1. That's 138 strength 4 dice, attacking anywhere on the board from my deployment zone. Celestine will also act of cheese and charge turn 1. Turn 2 the burners and the terminators get out and start doing their thing.
Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.
The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.
If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.
I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.
Okay, so I think I'm starting to better understand this a little. It sounds like he's not playing the game; he's playing the table. Do you like this guy? Sounds like he would get on my nerves quite a bit.
Anyway, I think the problem is that you went into this wanting a solution when really you need to convey a message. if that's literally the only thing he does every time, I recommend the following list:
You can mix and match a few weapons and maybe add warlocks to double your fun, but the base premise is the same. That list says "You like characters? So do it. I will be the reason why we cannot have nice things. feth off kindly and lets have a reasonable game next time." because now he has to chew through 22 5W characters with 4++ that he has to measure to each one to figure out which one is the closest, and he can only ever shoot at one at a time with everything he has, and he gets to play his game where he hides in the corner, rolling dice, and you get to play your game where you take all the rest of the objectives and enjoy that blast markers don't exist anymore. The fusion guns are on the off chance that he sees the writing on the wall and starts moving his tanks out toward you.
I don't understand why you think he's being TFG. I like him, he's nice, and he's only deploying his guard the way I would. I don't hate the player, I hate the game lol.
Also, working out the math for that last would be a pain, but it doesn't sound like it would do very well at all. He's always got a lot of small units of heavy weapons teams, and each one would delete an autarch each time it fired. He has 20+ units and almost all of them are probably capable of deleting an autarch each time they fire. Meanwhile I'd do almost nothing to his infantry units at all, and I'd have to foot slog through all his shooting to actually reach his back line...
but Orders are pretty fine.
